1 50 12 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f099e09b459432a901e78277b4b4bc5b.pdf 6587e9c67687858b8dff9e6e706be022 PDF Text Text Interview with J. F. Parker Tape 467A, Side 1 . . . Trying to get a special election in the county to improve the schools in a certain county in a district, a certain precinct of the county, and I was looking after a little county store for my brother-in-law and while he was not busy I was trying to get people to promise to vote for day the bond. He came to the store and said to me one.'i when we'd been playing checkers and I'd beat him two or three times, he said, "How would you like to teach?" I said, "Teach what?" He said, "Teach school." I said, ''Why I've not ever finished high school." He said, ''Well" says "I believe you could teach." Well that gave me a boost. I had never worked at anything where it's anything more than just common labor and fact of the matter, I'd left home when I was a boy, about sixteen, and went to work for this man. My job was not only putting in work 10 hours a day but when I got in from my work in the sawmill or in the woods, I milked the cows after dark. A lot of times I felt for something, I says, "I think the cow's out there, I felt her but I didn't see her." So that was my job and that's working for 40 cents a day and I worked all slUTITler and he owed me sixty some dollars and he didn't pay me anything. He just fed me, and I went home on Saturday night, went back to work on Monday morning and he owed me $6S. When he started to pay me, to pay me up, he said, "You know, if you worked on for me a little longer I'll pay you SO cents a day." Well at 10 cents a day, I jumped at it. that. I worked on a lot longer at ~~~~~~~~~~~~~- But in the meanwhile I was looking out for this little county store and the superintendent tried to talk me into going to teach school. I'd been away from home .thru high school. high school. Well You had to go away from home to There was no high school in McDowell County and there was an academy in the adjoining county down here known as Round Hill Academy. �2 It was supported by the Baptist denomination and was quite a prominent high school at one time. and Wake Forest. It was rated well with such places as the university They'd accept those boys and girls who came out of that school. And I had gone down there a couple of years ... and that tickled me and I said, "Yes, I'll take that!" He said "Alright, if you'll come down to Marion we're going to have an examination for those who want to teach and ------- so I come down here and I stood the examination and didn't think it was very hard, and got along pretty good 1 thought. good in arithmatic. I was always As I was really a year or two ahead of my class in that, I was always interested in that and I want to say this about arithmatic and mathematics--I have never seen a good mathematiciam who was a blllil. I have never seen a good mathematician that was a deadbeat. And I ... Of course, you say I'm trying to make you think that I'm the real thing (Laughter) because I was good in that and I went on and did the best I could in that work. So I stood the examination and the last day of the examination I was preparing to go back home and he saw me out there and he says, "Julius, come in here." I went on in there and he says, "The man here wants to hire you to teach school." And I says, "I don't know if I passed the examination or not." And he patted me on the back and said, "Don;t you let that worry you." (Laughter) He was going to send me on to teach school! Whether I knew anything · or not! somewhere. in there. (Laughter) So now he sent me He sent me back up here in these mountains and there's no roads Two-thirds of the way up there you were in the creek, you're either on this side of the creek and on that side of the creek and most of the time you're in the creek, and I finally got up there. Well I didn't know where to go to get a boarding place and I didn't know where the man lived that hired me, so I over across the field where there was a pretty rough looking place over there and I though I'd try to find out if something was over there. I told them Iw-anted a place to board. �3 The girl said to me, says, ''Well the school teachers always board with us when they're up here." I looked the situation over and it looked pretty rough but I said, ''Well, do you suppose you could keep me?" Says, "Well I guess so. Mother'll be back in a little bit. She could tell you." She came in, happy also, and says, "Yes, just come on in here and stay with us, we'd be glad to have you.'' The room that I's to, for my room, was a side room out to the side of the house and they didn't have any floor in the place. that. They'd laid plank down on the ground then put the bed kindly up on Well, you know what? I wasn't afraid of those people up there although they were some of em not much. But I wasn't afraid of those people because I'll tell you what I was afraid of. They's snakes all over the place and I was afraid to get out of bed at night on the ground. step on a snake. I was afraid I'd So I tried to stay in bed in the morning until I could see where I was going, but I never did get snake bit. But I'll tell you, that was one of my problems. I went on to school Sunday morning, Sunday school. And when I got there I hadn't quite seen anything like that that was going on there. TI1e young men and the young women had cornered off over there and the schoolhouse where they'd have preaching is about half as big as this, just a little place, hold 25 or 30 people, and these young people had cornered off over there and they kept doing something that I didn't understand what in the world was taking place. I kept watching to see what it was and I'd see em move this way and move over that away and on back around and I kept wondering, ''What's taking place here?" And after awhile I saw that they had a snuffbox, a great big old snuffbox, you know. And what they was doing, they had a stick about that long, called a toothbrush, made out of gum, and passed around to this girl and she'd put that in there and put it in her mouth and pass it on to her boyfriend and he'd put his stick in there and pass it on around. And they . . . most thing that bluffed me, I had known that people dipped �4 snuff but I didn't know it was like that. Usually, you know people chew tobacco, chew, and use snuff, they have to have a place to dispose of something. And where do you suppose they put it? On the floor. bwh r bwh! (Laughter) And I thought to myself, "My God! Just . . . bwh! Am I going to have to teach school in this place?" Well I'd gone up there like I was going to set the world on fire and I couldn't run off. My brother had carried me up there, (he) said, ''You're a fool for staying up here, let's get out of here 'fore we get killed!" I said, "No". I was staying. So :Monday morning ent over there bright and early to clean up that schoolhouse and it I w tobacco, tobacco had dried. And when I'd sweep that, it'd just, /\ you know, dust came up in my face. Well everybody up there told me about a little character who had given so much trouble that the teacher just couldn't do anything with him. He was just a little devil and there was no way anyone else could make anything out of him. looking for Avery. So I found out his name was Avery Elliot. Everybody had been telling about how mean Avery was. He'd tie the school up and he'd run you off and all like that. watching for Avery and sure morning. bit. I kept enough ~ I kept he came in with the other children one I said, ''Hello Avery." He kinda looked up at me and grinned a little All teachers were enemies of his. Of general principle, there was no teacher that was any good in his way of seeing things. of his to start with, he'd expect it. And they were enemies So I was determined that I was not going to have a fight with him. I had been a boy myself and I knew some of these things myself, you know. So I determined I was going to have trouble and I begin to try to get on the good side of him, but he wouldn't make friends. Didn't want you about. So about the second or third day of school, a little boy or a little girl one came up to me where I was behind the table up there. They said, "Avery has got a snake in the schoolhouse." I said, "Got a snake!" They said, "Yes!" I got up and went back there and says, �"Avery, where's that snake?" · (Laughter) He says, "Down here." I said, ''What are you going to do with it?" He said, ''Well, I guess I'll keep it a few days and kill it." I said, "What kind of snake is it?" He said, "Ah, it's an old moccasin." I said "That's interesting, where does those moccasins live around here?" He said, "Ah, they're up and down the creek everywhere. You can catch em any time." to do with it?" I said, ''Well, uh, what we going I says, "I want in on this thing. I want to help you see what we can learn from that snake." And he began to get interested. finally said to me, he said, "Do you like snakes?" He I said, "'No, I don't like em but," I said, "I'd like to know about them!" So we finally got to where we could make the plan that we'd get a big bottle. We'd put that sn:.ake in it and put some water in the bottle with the snake. And before we put the stopper in there, we'd cut a notch on top of that up there so he could get breath in there, and he'd have the water, and then we planned what he was going to eat. Well the whole school were complete1y· dtm1.bfounded. were surprised beyond question that I didn't take him up beat him to death 'cause he had a snake that day. by They the nap of the neck and · · We put that snake up in the schoolhouse and he said,"The eat crawfish and they eat spring lizards." "Well could we'"'catch I says, a spring lizard?" He said, ''Yes sir, I can catch one." So he went down there and caught a spring lizard and we put that spring lizard in there with the snake and put him up here on exhibition. he was my friend. From that day on I saw him not long ago at a bank here in Marion. someone call my narne--the teller or someone had called my name. ' Heard And there was .. an old, old man came over there, all drooped and face wrinkled, and asked me, he says, "Is this Julius Parker?" know me, do you?" I said, "That's right." He says, ''You don't I said, I looked at him and I said, " No, I"m sorry, I don't." He said, "I 1·m Avery Elliot". (Laughter) But the thing about it was that that kind of a school interested those people up there. And I stayed with it, I suffered through it and I had ... �SB where the teachers had been going up - and I'm a bragging on myself just a little bit - the teachers who had been going up there, they a lot of times didn't teach the school out a all but they got disgusted and just pulled up and left, and said the number of attendance there were always gotten so few that the teachers just quit and went on. But the day I left up there, in that school I had more children than I knew what to do with. Wife: We had a picture once of those, didn't we. Oh, I wish I had that picture. It'd be interesting. But those people are . different motmtain people of what I'm talking to you about than other mountain people 'cause it's a difference right here in this county when you talk about the motmtain people. There's a distinction between . . . there's different groups in the cotmty. They were hardy people. A mountaineer, a real mountain- eer, has gone through so much hard times and everything that they are toughened. It takes a certain amount of failures in life to make a person what they should be. I remember another incident about . . . Wife: Excuse me honey, tell em about the incident, said one day somebody called and said the snake was eatin a lizard. Yes! (Laughter) That's right. The snake and the lizard lived there together ever so long, about 3 weeks, 4 weeks, or maybe a month, before the snake decided to have dinner. (Laughter) Some child came to me and says, '~4r. Parker, they's eatin the lizard!" Everybody gathered up to watch him eat the lizard. (Laughter) Wife: Go ahead now. We had a wonderful school. The little children came and before I knew anything about teaching at all in those days, I figured out this: in many instances from the simple fact that they're not interested in what they're teaching. Y6u must become involved in what you teach .before you can get the pupils interested. Interviewer: teachers are a failure Arn I right or wrong? That's real true. �6 Another instance where the mountain people here, they're not easy, they're not easy to change their mind, was a few years ago, many years ago, it was about 1908 or 1909 in Rowan County there's a Negro down there by the name of Nat Crumb that tried to assassinate the sheriff of the county. to do it. He was hired And he shot the sheriff of Rowan County and they found out who it was by some means, I don't know what means, but they got after him and tried to catch him. Well he kept dodging the officers. In those days you didn't have cars., you didn't have phones, you didn't have anything like that so you could keep strictly in behind a criminal and he worked himself on into McDowell County. But pretty well scattered, they were looking for him and there was a warrant for him of $1,000 reward for his capture, He came here near Marion and they spotted him and had a shootout with the officers here and he ran the officers instead of them catching him. He ran them and he went into the woods and they were afraid to go in after him and so he kept working his way on up towards .farther and farther westward he got up here to Old Fort. Well I don't know whether you know anything at all about Old Fort or not . Interviewer: Not very much, no. Well they're a pretty tough bunch up there. people. It's a mountain town. Have always been, those mountain It was a town before Marion was ever made a mountain town, before it was ever made a town. Wife: The Indians had a fort up there. Yes, that's right. at Old Fort. And, uh. . . That's the first block where we stopped the Indians there That is from this way. Now Daniel Boone, he went from Boone back across those mountains that way but Daniel Boone never did come up this way. But anyway, Old Fort was an old, old town that has a population of 600 people, 6 or 700 people. But if you want trouble, if you're ever looking for trouble, why . . . it's available. Wife: (Laughter) What was you saying when I interrupted you? �7 So this Negro, he didn't know what he was getting in to. He had gone up there into the mountains and those people around Old Fort . . . now there's a rather odd thing about those mountain people up there, they were opposed to the Civil War. They thought that there was a mistake when the South tried to succeed from the Union. stay in the Union. They were for the Union. And they were opposed to the people who were slave owners, all this section south and east of us here. the people was :in favor of freein A Negro. Wife: They wanted to Come in Frank. And so these mountain Thi s i s our son, our farmer's son. (Laughter) We got him out on the Son: Wife: They're recording. They're recording. Well, I better hush, hadn't I? (Laughter) They were in favor of freeing the Negro but they didn't like the Negroes. They didn't want em about em. the idea? They didn't want em up there. Can you get So they wanted to free them, they thought it was wrong to do it, but yet they didn't want them. They wanted them to Sa.y out of their way. Well that feeling grew up for many years after the Civil War and this Negro who had been a shootin up these officers along the way here, he run on to Old Fort and they found that he was in that connrrunity. him. Someone had seen But at that time the Southern railway had what was called a helper. It was an extra engine that was placed at Old Fort when the train came through here with a heavy load going west. They'd hook this helper on to the train and pull it across to Ridgecrest and they they'd unhook and bring the helper back to Old Fort and wait until another train would pull up. So the people there in Old Fort was armed with everything they had, pistols and shotguns. So they's two boys, one was 17 and one was 18. One of em was named Linville Idle - that was the younger one of the two, and the other one was named Walt Porter. I think they were cousins. He was 18, I think that's the way. �8 And they were there at the depot that night, was a sittin there at the depot with their guns" ":. Well .' the engineer who was at that time running this, I ·- mean the engineer who was n.mn.ing this helper out to Ridgecrest came back from one of his trips. He'd just pulled across, he said "Lim, I saw that nigger up here on the railroad." I saw him as I went up. They said, " You don't say?" He's on the railroad." Said, "Yes, I saw him! and says--those trains as they went across there pulling a heavy load, they couldn't run fast on those heavy grades up there, you know--and "he tried to swing a train up there," says, "I'm sure he's trying to get away from here." And said "If you boys are really spunk to do it, I believe you could go up there and catch that feller tonight. l'm going back and pull # 35 across in a few minutes and I Ill take you up there and drop you off." I~ n Said, "we'll slow down, I'll have an understanding with the other engineer on the other engine." They had an engineer on each one of those steam locomotives, you know, in those days, and said, "I'll drop you off up there." Well, they made it up how they were going to do· it and so when #35 came up, that was a passenger train, he's going to pull across. These boys got on the engine with Ed Winslow and sure enough, they got to about Round Knob, that's 4 or 5 miles above Old Fort, I'll show you a picture of that directly, they saw him. Still trying to make his way across there walking and kept hoping he could catch a train to get away from here. And so as they passed by they slowed down and those boys swung out. Well, the plan that these boys had for catching him--you know you didn't have flashlights in those days, you had a lantern you know what an old time lantern was-- they decided that they would put this coat over the lantern and hide on the side of the road. And when he came up they could hear him walking. And when he came up one little. boy ·would .pull the light on him and the other one'd pull the gun on him and they'd have him. Well when they came up there, the boy that had the light in this lantern under his coat had smothered the light out and he didn't have any light. But they made a noise �9 and he said, "OH!" Like that. And when they did that they begin :.. to shoot. Now they claim they told him to halt and he wouldn't halt and they shot him, but the truth of the matter was that they shot him. whether they shot caught him. And I don't know g: running or whether they shot him, uh, when, but they Hauled;\back to Old Fort, Now you take boys of that type, motIDtain boys like that, and you can't head them off. They're determined, that stock in them was just simply so ingraded into their lives that they didn't like a Negro and they wanted a thousand dollars and that was it. But I've had other means to find out - talking about motIDtain people and the other more, possibly those who have had better opportlIDities than these mountain people have - besides these occasions to know that they are of a different background and they are interesting people. In 1928 I was working then END OF TAPE I, SIDE I when this crowd came in here from West Virginia or somewhere to organize this help at the Marion Manufacturing Company. I fotIDd that they was a marked difference in the people who were reared in these motIDtains, had moved into that village there to work,and the people who had come in here from the South and the East. We had two groups of people there and they all worked together, but they didn't think alike. So when this strike was about to come off, they had an almost even split in the people for and against the union. The people from the motIDtains, they just thought to themselves that "this has been a blessing to us that we came here and had a job." The people we~e working for have paid us very well. cash at the end of each week and we~e making a · living..'.and doing And the group that came in here from other places seemed to think that the company were thieves and taking advantage of the poor working man and getting rich. And so there's a difference in that feeling there and it developed into a very serious affair. Do either one of you know anything �10. about the strike at the Marion Manufacturing Company in 1928? Have you ever heard of it? Well it was quite a serious matter. It went on for ... finally closed the mill down and crune to the place where the people who were opposed to the union decided that they were going to work. if they could work to go work, and let them work. And the company told them they'd opened the mill and turned the power on And this group that was for the tmion, they was just as detennined they were not a going to work. line to stop them from going anywhere. 1hey put up what's called a picket Well, you can see from this standpoint that this was becomong a dangerous situation and on a certain morning and on a certain night, they tried to rtm--they were rtmning 3 shifts then--and a certain night, the night before the strikers had gone into the mill and interfered with the people who were working and tore down a lot of their work and crune very near to having a shoot out there. But the next morning, the officers were there to assist the people who wanted to work to go into the mill and this crowd was, people who were striking, were just as detennined that they were not going into the mill. Well, that was it, the sheriff was there and he told em when they gathered up around there, gangs of them 150 to 2 or 300 people, says, "now stand back, these people are going to work and you got to open this up so they can work." About that time one of the strikers had what's called a picker stick. You know what that Is? A Picker Stick? 111.at's a stick that's on a loom to knock the shuttle that away and knock the shuttle this away. knocked the sherrif down and jlllllped on him. killed him. And he off and Well when he did that, someone Killed the man that was on the sherrif. And from that, both sides went to shootin and when the fight was over, I didn't see it, it was a little before I went down to go to work, they was seven on the grotmd dead there and I don't know how many got shot up. Some of em had a bullet through their hats and some of them had bullets in their legs and everything else. down there that morning and it was kind of a sad time. Well I got Said, ''Who was killed, John?" �ll Bill was killed too. And so they was one fellow there by the name of Bill Twigs. . He was a character, he was , from back here in the motmtains. was on the side against the llllion, and he was cut all to pieces. knew where Bill got thsoe cuts on his chest and arms. And he I never Some said Bill calimed he's in the First World War and had to fight hand-in-hand with the Germans and other people told me it's not so, said he'd been fightin back here. He'd manage to get all cut to pieces. But Bill was in it and he was the one they had accused of shootin with a pistol in his hand and this story wouldn't be complete llllless you tell something about Bill Twigs. He never knew what the word "no" was. It did not make any difference what you asked him to do or if he could do it, the only word he knew was "yes". My boss talked to me about it one day and he said ' to me, he said, : You know, if I should go to Bill and say, Bill, I've got to go to San Francisco on a leave and just as quick as possible, I'm going to drive through in my car and I want you to drive £or me, Bill. Now how quick can you be ready?" Bill would say, ""In fifteen minutes!" He always got anything done in fifteen minutes. (Laughter) Bill was there that day and he had a part in that shooting and when he was tried, was tried and such a mess, never did convict or pllllish anybody for that killing. know who was guilty and who wasn't guilty. I don't But Bill was a character and I want to tell you ]ust a little bit about him because he was a molllltaineer of special interest to me. Like I said a few minutes ago, he didn't know the word "no". He's back over here till ... back in ... I think it was in Avery Collllty where Bill was from and he went to a flllleral. and Bill's telling me about it. A little girl died over there He says, "You know I went to a flllleral and they brought her to the side of the grave, the casket, said everybody just stopped and stood there. Didn't know what to do. Couldn't seem to know how �12 to proceed." Says, "I didn't lmow what they's a waiting on." Finally someone turned around, said ."I don;t believe we ought to bury her without having a word of prayer." Looked around and nobody never prayed a prayer in their lives, don't suppose. If they ever did, nobody'd heard it. Finally said to Bill, "Bill won't you lead us in prayer?" Well Bill had I reckon connni tted every crime that you could think of. And so I said to Bill, ''Well Bill, what did you do?" He said, "I led the prayer." I said, ''What did you say?" Says, "I told the Lord Mary had been a good little girl and I wanted him to take care of her." And he said, "Before I got through, I said 'We'll be along before long, better take care of us too. Make preparations for us.' " (Laughter) So I said, "Well how did you feel?" Bill said, "I felt good." And I thought to myself, ''Well it's a fime thing because it's possibly the first time you ever prayed or ever will pray!" Son: (Laughter) Oh Lord! I don't lmow what he's told you but another interesting story at ... you can't stay for a while, you could stay for three days and he'd still be talking. The flu epidemic, when he was working for Marion Manufacturing Company, just about wiped out everything back in '18. Flu epidemic was in 18? Yes. Son: Okay, That was an interesting story about you and the black fellow whose name I've forgotten. Yes, well in 1918 and 1919, there was the most deaths that I every lmew from any cause. It was the flu epidemic. talk here, heard about this flu? times of my life. Have you ever heard people in your ----- Will I think that that was one of the trying I never went through a time like that because it caught the people completely by surprise. just began to get sick. And people began to die. Nobody had warning that it was coming. The plant had to shut down, Nobody able to bury the Everyone was sick. People �13 people. To get a doctor was impossible and they's just 2 of us left. I was paymaster at that time at the mill and where we had 6 or 8 or 10 that worked in the office there, they's all out sick. 1here was one black man by the name of Hal Carson that didn't get sick and I didn't. For what reason, I don't know what I went through it because I was with it everyday. there and say,"please call the doctor. get a doctor." 1hey'd come in Somebody's going to die if you don't I'd go to the phone and try to get him but the girl at the office would say, "1he doctor can't possibly come. He's got, I guess 50 people here wanting him and he just can't possibly come. Well the first year, 32 people died in a village where the population was about 500 and the second year, the same thing with 29 died and my friends, people that I knew and everything. I told, uh, talking the other day, that I think it was the most trying time that I ever was. We hauled coal, the colored man delivered coal to them, he dilivered wood to them becasue we was selling wood and coal too along to help. The store was there adjoining the office, nobody in the store. People would come by and just want flour and meat or something to eat and I'd just dish it out to 'em. 1hey never paid for it. I kept a little record of it and went on til this dreadful epidemic was passed and I sit down and began to try to find out who owed what. Never could do anything much about it. So we just forgot it, 'cause the company I expect, spent $10,000.00 just helping the people, just for everybody. Now, those are stories connected with the mountain people. people are different. about it. 1hey've got a great background. 1he mountain There's no question But when this thing about finding out about those people, the time is so fast passing that what you called "Oral History", I understand that's where you don't have any documents or records of it--just what people says about it. It's soon going to be a thing of the past because those people are not mountain people any mote, in a sense of the word in that they are just like �14 any other people. times. I know you're tired of this. Interviewer: Son: Their children are educated and so on and it's a changing Oh no ... Tell 'em about Epler (?) Dad. Who? Son: Tell 'em about Epler. Well let me first tell 'em about ... now really and truely, when you get enough of this, be frank and say that's enough. I'm not sure we'll ever get enough, to tell you the truth Mr. Parker. Interviewer: Just either one of you say, "Well that's okay, We got enough for today." Interviewer: We don't want you to get too tired. Well, but first, I want to go back Frank and tell about this. had~been The crime corrmitted of the mountain people which is completely a closed matter. There's no way in the world ... Now for instance, what I started to tell you was this. Not long. . . Well many years ago "tis now, I was sitting one day at a desk and I wasn't very busy and I picked up a paper, a Morganton paper. At that time, the editor was Mrs. Beatrice Cobb (?) and she was the editor and I knew her in a certain way. And it was interesting to me because she had brought this out on the paper and made kind of a headline out of it and I got to reading it. And it said, in that article, says, ''We have been trying to make a complete record of the people who have been hanged in Burke County." And it said one of the famous trials and hanging was the, what? Silvers ... the name of that ... Silvers woman ... Son: Frankie. Frankie Silvers. Have you ever heard of Frankie Silvers? The only woman who was ever hanged in North Carolina for a crime and she was here in Morganton. And Mrs. (Miss) Cobbs said, "In connection with that trial, says, �15 "we ran across another hanging which took place in Burke County by the name of a man by the name of Ralph Noblett." Says, "I have searched my records here far as I know, everywhere, and I can't find anybody who knows anything about who Ralph Noblett was, what the crime was or any of the details whatsoever." But when she said Ralph Noblett, a bell rang in my brain. a person who knew about it. It happened to hit Now this crime was cormnitted before McDowell County was made a county which was in 1843 and we were at that time a part of Burke County. And so the crime was cormnitted in this part of Burke County but they carried him to Morganton to try him and that's where the trial was. So when I was a boy, a small boy, I'd say not more than 10 or 11 years old, I remember this story. There was an old lady who then was almost as old as I am now who lived over on that side of us. She had a daughter who lived over on this side of us and she walked from her home over to see her daughter occasionally and we were friends. She always stopped at our house and had lunch. she was sitting under an apple tree. And one day I can almost see that apple tree now. It was a warm day and we were sitting there and she told about the murder that Ralph Noblett cormnitted when she was a girl and even before the year 1843 this crime was corrunitted but she was a young lady at that time, or girl, and for some reason she was stmm1oned to Burke County as a witness. story of Ralph Noblett. And she told the Now it seems that there was a difficulty came up between Ralph Noblett and a man by the name of John Davis over hogs getting into the Davis' cornfield and eating up his corn. And knowing those days, can you imagine it, if you raised a corn field, you had to fence your land to keep the stock who was running in the mountains. that? You know . . . did you ever hear of So that was back in those days, so the Noblett's claimed the reason was he didn't have any fence. If he'd built a fence, it'd kept the hogs out. And he claimed that they were just downright thieves and (would) tear down any fence to go in there. And the trouble came up so one afternoon this fellow - �16 they had became such enemies, had such dreadful hard feelings for one another that this fellow Ralph Noblett decided he ' d settle it with John Davis. And he went down there somewhere and found John Davis going from his house down by the mill to feed his hogs, to feed his own hogs . He killed him, just hit him with a club, and he just came down across him and killed him and threw his body in the mill pond. Well, they caught him over in Georgia and brought him back here and tried him and that ' s where the end of it was . In those days, and I asked Frank about that the other day, they didn ' t bury that fellow, Ralph Noblett's body, take it back to the graveyard where other people were buried. But they buried it off on a lonely hillside by himself and as I used to go to school as a boy, the trail where I went by the grave of Ralph Noblett, there was a rock at the head and a foot there that ' s still standing there when I was a boy. I never passed there without feeling lonely . It felt like something about to . . . kind of sacred ground or something, I don't know what. And I went back to see about it several years ago and see if I could find that grave and long trees was standing there, that big arolilld, you know. It'd grown up and not a shadow. Son: Dad, you asked me about that the other day, why he ~~~~~~~~..-: was buried there. I referred to that story Secret of Harvest Home, where's buried outside the cemetery. Biblical. And I got to thinking about that and that is Do you remember the money that Judas took to the priest to give them for the betrayal? Judas, the Iscari ot \vhen he betrayed Jesus? He took the money to the church or to the priest and tried to give it to em . They took that and bought what became Potter's field and buried him there and not in the other burial ground and that ' s where that thing . . . I told you I thought the idea came from Europe somewhere, they brought it over here. But when I started thinking about it, it came from the Bible. the reason they did that . That ' s They wouldn't bury him out in the cemetery because �17 he was a murderer just like Judas was. (Laughter) Well I had wondered if you had run across anything like that where it was a custom that criminals not be buried in there. Interviewer : right. Does that . . . I haven't heard anything like that. But I'm sure that's I haven't . . . Son : Did you see Secret of Harvest Home . . . on television? Interviewer: Son: Okay. I've read that book. You know the woman was buried outside the cemetery . . . I'm internipting here, I gotta go . . . Interviewer: Son: Oh, no. That's okay. I know what you're talking about though. I thought that might give you some insight as to why Ralph Noblett was buried over on that hill and not in the cemetery, because the mountain people, the traditions that they brought with them over here, they stick to them very closely still now. If you get back in the mountains, which if you probably done, you'd find em. Wife: Son: I figured he'd tell about Efler(?) Okay, I thought that was interesting because of the circumstances of the hanging . He is the one they hung at Cross Mill and rode his coffin up . . • okay I ' ve got some business to attend to. I hope I see you before I leave, but if I don't, take care of yourself . Well I could go on and on and on but I . . . Wife: Well you have to tell about Efler? (Laughter) He was hanged in Marion. Tell about what? Wife: Efler. He's the one Frank had you tell about when you got off on that . . . �18 Yes that's right. County . Now they's only one man that was ever hanged in McDowell They've been men sent from here to Raleigh since they've had the electric chair and the gas chamber. Wife : Maybe you've had that told before. Interviewer: No mam, I haven't heard that story. I sure haven't. But he was the man that moved from Yancey County across into McDowell County and here at Buck Creek. I dont' know whether you noticed Buck Creek as you came in this away . . . right down here before you got to Pleasant Garden. back here in these mountains. Runs right And on the head waters of Buck Creek there's a man moved over there and he, for some reason, I don't know why, killed his wife. And he was hanged here in Marion, the only person that was ever put to death here in the county. He was a mountaineer, of course, and they said the whole affair was almost unbelievable. That they gave him so much whiskey that morning before they took him out there to bury him. I knew people who was, when I was a boy, were at who ./\ this hanging and they told about it. And told about how drunk he was . He was so drunk he couldn't stand and possibly didn't know when the execution took place or anything. of that rope. But there was a boy who worked with me who had a piece His grandfather was one of the ones who helped do the executing. I think he cut the rope thru the trap that took his life. I wanted to show you. . . . pictures . . . which was very co:rrrrnon in . . . I can remember . . . there's a man plowing , plowing with his ox. this fellow is riding a donkey somewhere. I don't know that one. called Uncle Tom's Cabin, surely nothing could possibly It's ~~~~~~~~~~- But these was old pictures taken back when the railroad was cut thru these mountains. shovel. And here of course, And here's some of the old homes down here that the mountain people often lived in that. that. There's something here Now those railroads, that railroad was built with a pick and They had no steam shovels in those days and they just simply had _mules and ... END OF TAPE I SIDE 2 �19 Tape 467B, Side I That's an old, old picture. Interviewer: This is a hotel in Asheville. And that's the French Broad River. Is there a train there somewhere? Interviewer: There's a track right there. There's somewhere where there's a train pulling that mountain that I was telling you about awhile ago. Wife: Is it over here somewhere? Well, maybe it's on this. Turn on the light and you can see better. Now this road was a1t through western North Carolina. thru the Swannanoa Gap at Ridgecrest. And there's the geyser. Old Fort. There'·s where it went That was all done by pick and shovel. By the way, they've restored that geyser up here above I wish you had time to go up there and look at it. Interviewer: Well that's really pretty. There's a train on there. That might have been the one that you were thinking about. There's the little train that was pulling up that mountain. grade there on those mountains. That's very steep I know you're interested in . . . Wife : You didn't get thru with Efler, honey. Don't forget him. Let me see, there's something here that I thought about. Now, uh, you 're talking about education and after the Civil War, the North never helped the South anywhere. After the war, the South suffered. They lived someway they could and it's right interesting to me to notice now that we even help Japan, �20 Gennany, and all those countries get back on their feet, but after the Civil War arolll1d we scramble~d lived somehow or another but there's nobody on relief. We were poor but everybody else was poor and we didn't know it. we didn't know it. We had horses and cows and plenty to eat. removed off of the table ever meal more than we ate. not to have an ablll1dance of food. clothes. We were poor people but We had, my mother We didn't know what it was We didn't have many clothes, had one suit of But there's nobody begging. Nobody living off food stamps. is a letter that might be of interest to you. 1bat there 1bat letter was . . . now my son who is in Texas, he is a dean of a textile school at the University of Texas. my yolll1gest son. He's younger than Frank. And he wanted this letter, the original letter, so they made me a copy of that before he took it off. And you'll notice that person there that wrote that letter could write pretty well. writing. 1bey never went to school a day in their life. after the Civil War and that was my alll1t. 1874. 1bat was 105 years ago. 1bat's It's very good 1bere's no schools And that letter was written on March 5, And if you could read it, it's quite interesting. You see, she . . . now this is one . . . she wrote on both sides of her, that . . . and see here's where it starts. And that's the second sheet over there. Read it out if you can. Interviewer: Okay. 1be state of Tennessee, Cooke County, March 5, 1874. Dear Mother and Father. I write you a few lines to let you know that I am well and hope these lines may find you and all well. it is a girl. I have another child, Her name is Tennessee . . . (maybe Ester, maybe). months old the twelvth of this month. She is seven Pap, I (Oh she's seven months old this month). No periods, no cormnas, or anything. (Laughter) Interviewer: Pap, I want to know what is the reason you and mother don't write to me. It looks like you have forgot me. all but I can't come at this time to see you. would come and see me. I would like to see you But I would be glad if you (She has a very good handwriting, she really does.) �21 I want you to write to me and tell me who is dead and who is married since I left there . I want to know what has become of Noah Southers' girl and if they are married. duce. Bacon 12~¢ Give them my respects . a pound. Flour 4¢ per pound. I will give you the price of pro- Corn 60¢ per bushel . Wheat $1 . 25 per bushel . I hear that the Bald Mountain shakes three times a day . I want to know if it's so . James is putting out a big crop on the Whitter (looks like) Luttens ' plantation two miles from Parrotsville. So I will close at this time by asking you to write to me and direct your letter to Parrotsville ML Bearhill Cooke County , East Tennessee . Now by the way, do you know who John Parrish is? Interviewer: The writer, the man who writes for the Asheville Citizen sometimes . You know who John Parrish is. Interviewer: Uhm, Uhm. Well now read this right here. Interviewer : Okay. . . there were widely published reports of volcanic disturbances about Bald and Stone Mountains in 1874. These are the highest peaks in the ridge of mountains a few miles east of the Blue Ridge between the gathering points of the head waters of the Catawba and Broad Rivers . Clingman's reports, articles, and addresses describe many phenomenon occurring in western North Carolina. Now that was not too· long ago in the Asheville paper . And this is referred to in this letter . Interviewer : That's what she's talking about, isn't it? Volcanic . . . Rather coincident, i sn't it? �22 Interviewer: I never heard of that before. anywhere in these mountains. I never heard of volcanoes What about that. Sort of like earthquakes and disturbances that way, wasn't it? Ulun, uhm. Interviewer: Well that's really interesting. It's rather interesting. Interviewer: It certainly is. She has a fine handwriting. I can't read aloud as well as I should be. But she couldn't spell anything, you know. She really does. (Laughter) She couldn't spell anything. But the poor thing did well to be able to write and in those days they just didn't have any books or anything else. Interviewer: Well at least she had it spelled where you could figure out what she was talking about. That's right. And that's what the English language is for.· out what's going on. Wife: (Laughter) To find Well, I don't know of anything else . . Are you not going to finish about Efler? Efler, wasn't that his name? Well, they, that's all they was to that, that I remember. Wife: He rode on his coffin to the gallows. Oh, let me see . . . that's something . . . the reason I have kept that, that was the uh, called Custard's Last Rally. You know what that was, when Custard and his forces were completely destroyed in South Dakota, I reckon it was. Dakotas. And I knew him personally. he was not a fake either. . .one of the The only man that survived that fight and Because he had papers to show from Washington that he �23 belonged to Custard's a11JlY at this time. And he had been dispatched with an Indian guide to go back to General Reno's office. back to Reno's forces and ask for help. slaughter. Not his office, but And he was away at this And I knew Mr. Knight, Dan Knight, and I worked with his som. I knew two of his sons well. One of them was a graduate of Duke University or Trinity College at that time, and his other son worked with me and I knew Mr. Knight well. And that's the reason I kept that, is because of the fact that, it's just because I did know the man that wis in that. you've seen that possibly. Interviewer: The only surviving .man ... (Shuffling papers) No, I don't believe I have. Now you know who Frankie Silvers was. Interviewer: Uhm, yeah I've heard of her. Well, have you ever seen that poem? Interviewer: I don't believe I've seen the poem, no. Well, you want to read it too. Both of them copies are the same. That's what she's supposed to have composed before she was hanged. Interviewer: Oli, I see. And she's the only woman to ever be hanged in North Carolina? Yeah, Uhm, that's right. Interviewer: It was pretty gruesome business wasn't it? It really was. Wife: Would you like a cup of coffee and a piece of pumpkin pie? Interviewer: Water'll be fine. Thank-you mam. �24 I don't know, goodness knows, that I was possibly the poorest prepared person that ever tried to teach in the world. demands than I could possibly fill. They had no vacation. But for some unknown reason I had more They was one year that I taught a solid year. When they found that I was not busy they asked me to come to that school and take up in the st.mlJller time when they's supposed to be farming if Now I don't say this boastingly because it's just as much a mystery to me as it is to you, why that was. But it's so. And so I went on and I was asked to be principal of the school here at Pleasant Garden. Now that was only when they had three teachers down there then and then they had a school that was considered better at a town called ville. I don't suppose you ever heard of it, it was a little place back in the Southern part of the county here. It was a gold mining region and they had some stores there, two or three stores. Two or three places that sold whiskey and so on. And so I was asked to come there and I stayed there three years and finished up my, what I had tried to do as a teacher there. And I folllld that some of the brightest students that I'd ever run into were right there in that school. That the truth of the matter is that they knew as much as I did and I had to study ever night to keep them fooled. (Laughter) I stayed up to midnight studying my lessons. And I kept them fooled til the last day I was there. had me cornered time after time. (Laughter) And you have no But I made it thru. ~ <lea how they (Laughter) I fooled them to the very end. Now I was talking to a young man, and I've had people visiting me here of all kinds of people, the poorest needy, like myself, and some of the richest, some of the high salary people, some rich people. I had a man to visit me from New Jersey not long ago who is a multimillionaire and he came to see me. still alive and he came up here to see me and talk to me. He heard that I was And I have talked to all groups of people of every strata of education of people down here, and I have always got something out of talking to those people just as well as to the person up here that was well educated. I had a young man who is the yollllgest official �25 that the Carolina Power and Light Company has ever employed to visit with me here not long ago and he and I were talking about what education means. where do we go to from here. Where have we come to, And I have made up my mind it's something like this. That you find very few high school students, now I don't know, I went to college just a little bit but not enough for it to do me much good, and I don't know how it is now. been 65, 70 years since I was in college. That's And that was Old Trinity College which is now Duke Univer· sity. In talking to this young man who is an official of the Carolina Power and light Co. he told me some things that he had observed and the very things that I am conscious of it. That education today is made up of so many graduates out of colleges and universities who know something about everything. You can't start to touch one of them but what they know something about it and talk to you intelligently about it. But when you pin down on some of them, "just what do you know about this particular thing," you soon have them cornered and they know a little about everything and not a great deal about anything. (Laughter) A young lawyer here was talking to me not long ago and he said his mother, now he was a graduate, he'd taken his degree at the University of North Carolina before he entered the law school, and he had, I don't know, 2 years or 3 years , whatever it is, you know, I don't know. I believe it's two years. after they finish their 'regular education. I believe they finished in two years .. And he said his mother was talking to him one day and she says, "Bob" says, "you amuse me". Says,"You know a littlebit about everything and you don' t know much about anything.'.' ''Y6u can't read, you can't write, and your spelling's awful." (Laughter) And he said he got to studying about it and looking at his writing and he said, "I couldn't read it, part of it. says, "I'd write it and forget what I wrote and couldn''.t read it." And like an old man back over here in the mountains, \ he's looking after a mans pasture over there, taking care of his cows. in town. He's a doctor. The man lived here Bought him a farm back there and had cattle on that farm over there and he wrote, ·this doctor wrote him a letter and told him what he wanted him to do with the cattle over there. And the man got it, the old farmer over there, got �26 the letter and he couldn't make out anything. to him. So he didn't know what to do. (Laughter) It was a lot of cooking bark Said he decided to come to Marion and take it to the doctor and say to the doctor, "Doctor, I just got your letter, I appreciate it, but I couldn't read it," and said after he carried on the conversation a little bit, after the doctor had quit thinking about him a telling him, he got the letter and so on, says, "Here's a letter I want you to read to me." Said he pulled the same letter out of his pocket and handed it and said the doctor looked at it a little bit and turned it up this way and he said, "What son of a bitch wrote this?" read his own writing. (Laughter) (Laughter) So that's the way Bob was. He couldn't So I was talking to this, going back to my story again, I was talking to this young official of Carolina Power and Light Company. He's a high paid man. I think his salary is about $45,000 and he has taken his degree out of college and his postgraduate. And I don't know how much maybe his father met. And he was talking to me about the same thing that we are about education today. And he said, "I'd like to see some of your books. Do you happen to have some of your old books there that you are talking about so much?" And I says, "Yes, I've got some. They're almost torn up." see em." Says, "How old are they?" Says, "I'd like to I says, "75 or 80 years old." He says, "Hunt em up, I'ct like to see em." Now I'm going in here and get some of those old books just to show you what we was talking about. Now I declare I got completely off this mountain story. Interviewer: Wife: That's perfectly alright. Maybe I didn't get enough ginger ale in that, did I? Interviewer: Wife: Oh that's okay. Oh it's good, it's fine. I picked up the bottle and poured some in it and didn't taste it. I don't know what you believe in religion churches. a Catholic (Laughter), you may be a Protestant. You may be a Jew, you may be And the same thing with you Judy. �27 Let me call you Judy will you? Interviewer: Oh certainly, certainly. And you just call me Jeff. Uh, but there's one thing about the churches that have been the most change taken place of anything in my life and I can't yet understand what is taking place. Interviewer: Now do you attend church? The Presbyterian Church, yes sir. Do you attend church? Interviewer #2: Episcopal. Well now I don't know about the Episcopals so much, but I'll take the churches that I do know about. Now you're the Presbyterian? Okay. where I was reared they had a Presbyterian church. Now in my coTTUTlunity Not right close to where I lived but they had what's called a United Methodist Church now and a Baptist Church in that corrnnunity. Well the services in those days and the doctrine in those days, it was preached to the people by, we assumed, a qualified and dedicated preacher, was so different from what they preach today that there's just as much difference as they is, I think, to believing Mohammedan and Jesus Christ, almost that same difference. Now in the church where I was reared they had, if you, before you joined the church you was supposed to show to that church that you had a change of life. That you were what they called a conversion, i:::' which means turning up and going the wrong(??)way, that everybody was born in sin and they had a certain amount of responsibility to God to change this way before you were accepted as a qualified member to join the church. Alright, now in my church the way they did, they formed what they thought was a conversion and I've heard people good and bad claim that they really had a change in life at a particular moment. That you were one way one way and suddenly that you became a Christian and felt in your life that that was so. Well they had what was �28 called a alter and as the preacher preached and gave the invitation to those who'd accept Christ to come forth and bow for prayer and kneel for prayer. Well, that's the kind of a church that it was and I didn't know, I thought, now I don't think your church ever practiced that. I don't really know the doctrine of your church. But I have friends who belong to the Episcopal Church and I know that we don't talk what and I find out anything about that. And after they were converted, they call a conversion, a change in their life. what they called a heart- felt religion, that you felt the change in your life, that you were a changed man. 'Then you were eligible to be admitted to the church but not before. would get up and preach about hell. He'd preach about heaven. really there was a hell, and I thought there was really a devil. was a heaven, I thought it was a good place to go. 'The preacher And I thought I thought there So I remember one night I went to one of these big, what they call a revival, and the preacher got up and preached the sermon and the sermon was like this. he didn't. He knew all about it. He made hell hot, don't you think And it was a tent meeting out in the country with such a great big tent out there. All the different denominations came in and took part in this and he made that thing real hot. a lot that night. here. And I studied about that And here's a little story . . . now please, let me make a request If you get enough-· of my talk, I want you to say this is it, that'll do for this time. END OF TAPE 467B, SIDE I Tape 467B, Side 2: and they thought he was going to die. and looked after them. didn't have hospitals. . . the In t hose days peop 1e went into community "" 'They didn't have nurses, didn't have doctors to come in, care of And they went in there to take I\ a sick man and said his friend was over there that night and they said that uh. . . the man, the sick man �29 got quiet, quleted down, and that man that was sitting there by his bed went to sleep! And said he had a dream and said this man, this was his dream ... he dreamed that his ... while he was there that his friend died. And when he died that he'd been a very sinful man and said when the man died said there's a devil come into the door. But he said before this devil came in the door, says a little creature about that high with horns and a tail and all that you know. And he ~aid that before this devil came in the room, the man died and said he saw the spirit of this man come out of the body and said the spirit begin to look all around, here and there, and everywhere, as looking for a place to hide. And said finally it ran out, the spirit ran out the door and they watched it, went across the road and off down like that, in the woods somewhere. And said all at once the devil came in and said the devil came in, told what the devil looked like, said he came up to his bed, looked at the man, the man was dead. Said the devil began to look for the spirit of this man, said he went and looked under the bed, and went and looked behind the door, and he went- - - - - - - And so after a while, the devil went out the door like a hound ... a bloodhound. He seemed to have a instinct or smelling to know where that spirit went. Said he followed him off over that hill there, and he said you know when that devil got down there, siad I had gone to the door and looked out and watching that and he said the spitit of that man screamed. everywhere. He says that you could hear him all over And he says, "All at once I woke up." Says "I got so excited in my dream',' says, " "I woke " and said "when I woke", said "the man was dead." Now he said that creature says, now if that part of the story did, if he actually died, the rest of this story's true. And he had me scared to death. (laughter) go to the mou01er's bed in a hurry. (Laughter) night, I went over to Oh! I thought better He had me scared. So that and I lived about half a mile beyond where my friends lived and I went with them along, and I kept riding because they were older men and hadn't paid no attention to it, of course. didn't want them But I was taking it very seriously, and I �30 to lmow I was scared. But I haa made up my mind along ago that the distance from this house to our house has never made as quick- by a hoyse or anything else. (Laughter) I lost no time (Laughter) because I didn't lmow where he might jl.nTip out you lmow, on me, yes sir. (Laughter) Now they said preaching is that, you lmow in those days, and they had what you called people 1vould shout They get up and say, "Glory to God!" Thank the Lord that the sometimes. blessings that you see If that thing like I have seen in that old ----- church back then should take place now in the First church in Boone, they'd call out the riot squad, every officer in town, the sheriff, and everybody else. Say there's a riot taking place. What is the truth? Interviewer: It's hard to say. Interviewer: I said that's hard to say. Hm? Some of the churches up in the motmtains way up in the mountains, way back, are still, still like that. They are? Do you have any snake handlers? Interviewer: There aren't any snake handlers right there around in Boone, I don't think. But there's some over in, towards Johnson City. some over that way. There's But I don't believe there are any, I haven't heard of any right there around in Watauga Cotmty .anywhere. There may be some but if they handle them, they don't, it's not real widely known I don't think. Well I have gone to churches when you leave a church you felt like it was good for you to be there. It's just,you had a betterfeeling,y0 u•·s just glad to be there and have a part in it. and dead. (Laughter) worse shape. And I've gone other times and it was so formal and dry You was sorry that you went. (Laughter) Interviewer: Uh, uh. You felt like you was in Now, you've been down to Beaufort. �32 Well, here's a direct example. You can size it up, put an interpretation on anything I say about this, but I know this will be so . The people in those days in the country church where I was, they believed in helping the needy. If you had sickness in your home, they'd go there and help in .case of sickness . If you had a death, they'd help you bury the dead . you planted your crops and yo~ If you were a farmer and couldn't cultivate it because of sickness in your family, they went in and cultivated that land for you . Set a day, the church would say "a certain day we're going to go over here to John's house and we're going to work out his crops." Now said, "every one of you come and bring your mules and your plows and get over there and you people with a hoe" . .. I don't know whether you've seen much of that hoeing going on now. But in those days, the hoeing, taking all the weeds out of the corn and so on, was just as important as the plowing or the cultivating part . They don't even plow now, they do it with spraying to kill the weeds out, you know . But then they did. Now here's an example of how seriously they took that. Now that was part of their religion. They not only claimed ,., , ..., to be what the Bible teaches them to do, but they put it into practice. When the Union Tanning Company came to Old Fort, they came there to Old Fort because of the fact that they'd get tan bark, what's called tan bark out of these mountains. It's an extract. (wood ground up and make an ooze for tanning leather hides. And a lot of those farmers quit the farm and went to Old Fort and got a job in that. Well they'd worked not five days a wecl) they worked six days a week from ten o'clock in the morning to six in the afternoon. Saturday and all. But they were off on Sunday . Well now here's an example where this church put their religion to practice. One Sunday morning they were in church and they said, "Well, how's John over here getting." "Oh, he stays in bad shape, been sick now for two or three weeks, and his crops going to grow up in weeds and nobody's done anything about it." And says, what do you know about it? And they said, "Well, I tell you what we'll do. Next week certain times we'll go over there and work out that man's corn crop for him." And on that day, they went over there and cultivated that soil. Maybe twenty �33 five men and plows and so on go in there, and one day they cleaned that whole man's crop out. And then on Sunday, the next Sunday, there's this crowd of men there at church and said, ''Well," said, " we were not able to get off our work to help," says, "what should we do, do about it?" One man said, "I'll tell you what we're going to do." Says, "We're going home, we fellows that didn't get to help last week, get a quick dinner, put on your overalls, Sunday afternoon, we go down there and finish that crop." Not only did they work 5, 6 days a week . . . now I don't know whether you call that breaking the saddle or not (Laughter). Does that answer your question? Interviewer: Oh, yeah. There was a man by the name George Truitt. heard of him. th e days. George W. Truitt. You know, orators. knew how to talk. I don't suppose either one of you He was an orator. There's just a few orators I'll tell you Appalachia used to have one that But that's before your day and your day. Did you ever hear of I.G. Greer? Interviewer: Uh, huh, yeah. You know who I'm talking about? Interviewer: Yeah. He knew how to talk. everyone else. He could quote you as such, he could quote better than And you'd listen to him ; he's boy, wasn't he? Interviewer: smart. And he was a mountain Over there right around Boone. Yeah, yeah, he was over there from somewhere. So I heard Dr. George Truitt preaching one night and he told this. Now he believed in what you called a heartfelt religion, not a dry formal religion that is more or less made~£ education and culture, and no emotion. There's a lot of people that �34 don't want to go to any church where there's any emotion at all. They want it to be just as same as if you go to a lecture, and anything else. A dry, fonnal affair There's other people that does not appeal to them, that they feel like when you go there, that I don't know, it's just sort of good music, and so on, and it's just awesome, just does something for you. ---------. And we call that sometimes, we call it emotion. So Dr. George Truitt who · served at one church in Dallas, Texas for 40 years, he went there as a young man, and he'd never held the pastorage of any church but hhis one church. He was there at the First church in Dallas, Texas and I heard him tell this. Wife: He came to Ridgecrest. He came to Ridgecrest , yes. Wife: He'd come up every stumner for a week. And he said that he was at a church and preached. \ ... ··, • And he said that some •I woman got up in the audience and said, "Glory to God!" (Claps hands) And begin to what they say shout. "Cause I was telling you about awhile ago when you were here, now if anything like that happened, they'd call out the riot squad. (Laughter) And he had, Dr. Truitt had a brother-in-law who was a medical doctor. And when this medical doctor who was at service saw this woman there, he felt like that woman was physically upset over something that she needed attention. got up and went back to where she was at. and said, "John, leave .her alone'.' And so he And said Dr. Truitt, said he called him So people changed. I heard a woman, heard of a woman, she didn't tell me this, belonged to the church where I belonged to. She said absolutely, "!don't want any of that emotion when I go to church." Says, "they can get up and preach a straight sermon or something or other." Says, "Appeals to my eye. Me, intellectually," religion stuff about me." says, "I don't want any of that heartfelt So there's a feeling in the world today between the two peoplP., the two classes of neonle yon take your choice. Pay your money. �35 take what you want. we The church that I belong to received about (Chuckles) three letters a year, four letters a year, reminding us to be sure to give the tenth. That was the Lord's. But I have never heard of anything that they did in return for the people who was giVing this money. But they always have somebody way over yonder in Africa, or Europe, or Asia, somewhere else, needs help. And they're trying to help those poor souls over there. say this recently. But I heard a man certain He said 11 if I were in trouble today ,11 says ' r belong to ~church, but if I were in trouble today," he says, " to whom do you think I would go? " 11 I says, well, I know who I 'd go to .' ' And he said ," I ' ll tell you who I 'd go to , I'd go to my banker first. ' (Laughter) And he said," I think I'd get some help there / he says, 11 if I didn't I'd go to my doctor ,'' says, ''he's a good friend of mine," says, he'll help me . 11 And he says, if I didn't get all I needed there, he says, then I 'd go to, my;' sanebody else. where does your church come in? 11 I says, " I thought they were to help the poor I and the sick, and the needy. ' He says, "Oh . (Laughter) Now that's the feeling. 'i) Says mark it off, says they don't. How much better are you off if you belong to a church, than if you were not a church member? mind? And I said, 11 well Is there anything in your If there's no reason for it, only to support somebody that you don't know where the money ever gets to them or not. There's a big question mark in my mind. And I began to think differently. What do you think about it? Interviewer: Well, I feel like there's a lot of churches where there's not very much spirit left in them. these days. And I don't know what to do. Well, I am glad that you're a young man and all and I think it's nice that you have that feeling. Wife: I think it's corrnnendable. One of our church members said that our preacher didn't know the scripture enough to preach from it and the people in the .audience didn't know enough to know whether he was preaching from it or not. (Laughter) Didn't know the scri~ture either. �36 Now there's a lot of people that believe the Bible so thoroughly that they can't figure out whether it can possibly be one pronoun or one adjective used for what's absolutely true, it's directly from God. Well I was talking to one of those, now I believe the Bible reasonably well, but the Bible has been taken from scrolls through the hands of people who have translated from those scrolls into what we call the Bible. Now I don't know any Greek. Do you either one of you study Greek? Did you ever study Greek? Well I am told that the word that was placed in the scripture there, that said that when the thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom," if you've read the scripture, you've read that possibly. paradise today." And he says to him, "Behold thou shalt be with me in Now I'm told by a Greek scholar that that word where it was translated there, into paradise, the very identical same Greek word as translated in other places in the Bible was the word death. So here you are. 1bat's what people think, paradise is a certain place that Jesus is talking about, special place that you, we will be there together in paradise. 1be other thing said that it didn't mean a thing more than what Jesus said back to him. going to die. (Laughter) Same Greek word. that, one in particular, I pin down on him. Today we're both And I've asked Greek students about I said I want you to look word up for me and tell me for sure what it means. that And he went off and says well I have to look up my, and I never could get anything more out of him, I don't know where · he got stalled, didn't know what he was talking about, just didn't want to talk. Now I'll tell you another instance if you're a Bible student and read the Bible, where there's a difference that's questionable. In Matthew, in the gospel of Matthew, it said when Peter denied Christ, that there's a girl come to Peter, says, "You're one of His followers." And he said, "No, no I'm not." And then Matthew goes on to say that later on another woman said to him "Surely thou art one of His followers because you speak of as Galileans speak," had kind of a different accent on the way, and he denied it again. And then a third time a man �37 said to him, "I know you are one of . . . " and he denied him a third time. Well, now what does, what does ~ays Luke, Gospel of Luke say about it? The Luke this, Luke says, "And a girl," a damsel I believe it says, said to Peter that "you are a follower of Jesus Christ." And he said, "I'm not, I'm not a follower of His." And then Luke says, a man said to him, "You are." He denied it again. Then another man said to him, "Thou art," Now there's two, there's two just point out little things like that that you have to allow things like that. One gospel said that there's two women and a man. two men and a wol'Tlan. The other one says there's Now when you say that the whole Bible is ever word true, that I don't say that the trouble is with the Bible originally, but it's gone through so many hands and the translations, been translated and translated. The fact of the matter is when the King James, now if I'm wrong about this, you correct me, you've possibl s t udied this, when King James had the Bible translated <yes the from the Greek from th); New Testament is in Greek I believe and Old Bible's in Hebrew. When they had that . . . when they's appointed some monks, King James appointed some monks and there's one he~ kinda head monk who was seemed to be the thing that ran things and they picked up all these different scrolls and decided then and there which were the scrolls that should go in the Bible, and they classified them and ever since then everybody says this is the Bible, it's all true. I don't believe, just be honest about it, I don't believe the book of Job and the book of Jonah, swallowing the whale. Wife: You know that story. Jonah didn't swallow the whale, the whale swallowed Jonah. (Laughter). I don't think that was ever intended to be put in the Bible. exactly like the book Pilgrim's Progress. Don't know whether you ever heard of the Pilgrim's Progress? The Pilgrim's ..ProgTess is the story as simply fiction. I think that It was never intended being there. I think it was of~ Christian's life the book of Job, was a work of fiction. It's a good book, it teaches us a lot of good things to live by, and all like that, but to say it was a direct work from God �38 be nrinted like that. Now for instance in that book of Job, now please stop me if you get tired of this stuff. Interviewers: No. Wife: You've talked enough for all day. Interviewer: Go ahead. (Lau12:hter) In the book of Job, it said . I think it's in the chapter, second chapter of Job, it said that t.he nevil accompanied by somebody came before God in passing and it said, the devil said to God. he said, the devil said, "if vou turn your back on people and are not a friend to them," says, "none of em will serve you. What people serve God for is the good they get out of it, financially and things like that." And God said to the devil, "Have you considered my servant Job?" And the devil said. "If you turn your back on Job or turn him over to me and let me deal with him, you' 11 find he' 11 turn his back on you too." And said the Lord permitted him to be turned over to the devil. Now can you imagine, can you imagine that God/ the Creator of the heavens and the Earth and everything to the stars would have a little enough care for a creature to turn him over to the devil? Just to prove to the man, you can't prove anvthing to the devil, turn him over to him and let him ... vou know the boils he went through, sores, how his property was taken from him1 sons killed and all that. Can you imagine our creator and a man who has created the heavens and the Earth, things like eternal that is just so unreasonable that I just simply can't accept it. God he is, we're in bad shape. (Laughter) END OF TAPE If that's the kind of � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Parker, J. F. Location The location of the interview. McDowell County, NC Number of pages 38 pages Date digitized 9/23/2014 File size 25.8MB Checksum alphanumeric code 7f2651391849c681b3916ffa79f9c215 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape467_JFParker_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with J.F. Parker Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Parker, J.F. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Marion County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--McDowell County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Rowan County Marion County (N.C.)--Social life and customs McDowell County (N.C.)--Social life and customs Rowan County (N.C.)--Social life and customs Parker, J. F. Description An account of the resource J.F. Parker talks about his experience as a teacher with the mountain people living in Old Fort. Although he had never finished high school, he got a job as a teacher. He said: "He was going to send me on to teach school whether I knew anything or not." He talks about the hardships living up there, how school attendance was often very low and the kids brought snakes to the schoolhouse. He says the mountain people were a different breed of folk and they understood that "it takes a certain amount of failure in life to make a person what they should be." They were hardened, but strong and firm. Civil War Custard's Last Rally Custard's Last Stand Episcopal Church flu epidemic Frankie Silvers hangings J.F. Parker Marion County N.C. Marion Manufacturing Company McDowell County N.C. Morganton mountain people Old Fort Presbyterian Church railroad Ralph Noblett Rowan County schoolhouse Sunday School teaching https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/61b8ac98d1bdb562a48623aec5d27a7e.pdf ffd35fd69fb38b80c4fa9af45d98ddd6 PDF Text Text This is an ·Appalachian Oral History Project interview with M r. Perry Hicks of M arion, North Carolina who is a retired mill worker. He was interviewed by Sam Howie on December Jl, 1975. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Some of the first things we need to know are thi ng s like where you we re born. Well, I was born in Haywood County in the extreme western part of North Carolina, right inside of North Carolina. Our closest neighbors we r e in Tennessee •••• back in the extreme western part, near Pigeon River. Pigeon Rive r? I was raised on a company's land. My father paid $25 a y e ar, standing rent, on the mountain f a rm. And he raised hogs, c a ttle and livestock and he farmed. He raised wheat, corn, oats, rye, irish potatoes. The land produced rye and oats in abundance, and irish potatoes and cabbage and vegetables. But the corn made about 15 bushels an acre, about 6 to 8 bushels of wheat per acre, and about 20 bushels of rye, and about 20 or 25 bushels of oats. And , I was raise d there and we had a three-month school. We went to school through July, August and September, at an old sawmill shanty. And my daddy left there when I was ab out 12 years oad and went farther back in Haywood County to a big double-band sawmill. He went there for the e x press reason to send me and my brother to a six-mon th school. We was up to a pretty good size. About the only thing I learned wa s how to hobo a railroad engin e in old log[ ing trains. It 'd leav e there in the morning ab out the time my daddy went to work. I 'd get on it and go to the mountains and come back in just ab o ut dinnertime and go to the house and eat my dinner. I went back, I went back to the mountains •• I did most of the ti me. The thing that got me out of heart about g oing to school was that most of the students were stupid or dumb or something o r d i dn't care about learni ng and the tead.her appointed me to try to help them learn. nd I went from seat to seat for a week or two and I wasn't making any progr e ss. They weren't learning, and the teacher would get on me ••• so I got out of heart and quit . ' Then my daddy bought a farm in Madison County, moved back there, and stayed til I reckon it was 1920. But in the meantime I met my wife and me and her was married. I was 17 years old, she wa s 16. That 's been 59 years ago . What year we~e y ou born in? I was born in 1899 and we decided to come to t h e cotton belt ••• here to M arion and we come up there and I went to work in the mill. What year wa s that? That was 1919 that I went to work in the cotton mill. Which mill was that? Was1 that in ••• That was Clinchfield. Clin chfield? It's Clinchfield. The one that you came by. The bi e one? And the mill run 12 hours a day. Of cours e , the day I worked was 10 hours , but the wheels and machinery they would stop at 12 hou rs. I went to work in the card room for a dollar for 10 hours, got a dollar a day. I paid 45 cents per week for house rent, for a three-room house. W as it a mill village then, that you lived in? Yeah. Clinchfield mill villa g e? �2. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Yeah, Cli n chfield village. Did you have to live in the mill village to work in the mill? No, you didn't have to but it was cheaper. They furnished the house. It took 700 hands to run the two mills at that time. We was up there, I don't remember how many years, several years though. There was a man who come in here organized a union. What years? Two cotton mills. Was that in 1929? I guess it was. Yeah , it wa s. And oh, he got the East Marion mill pretty well organi zed . The mill I was working in, they never did go so str ong for the union. All of the bus i nesses in M arion was bitterly opposed to it. To the union? Yeah , to the union. And, of course, by me being nonunion, I was let in the inside of wha t was going to happen. I was sworn to secrecy not to tell anybody what I knowed about what was go i ng to happen. But I knowed the union wasn ' t gping to win and I knowed the unio~··· ah, the company was not going to accept it, the people wasn t going to accept it. The town and the businesses wasn't going to accept it. They were se ar ching all the time for something that they could try the union organizer for, in the law. Take a warrant for him ahd try him. Do you remember his name? Hoffman . And he went right on and closed the mill I was working at for three weeks a nd they got ready to start it up and they told us all where to get to, t o come in on a certa i n Mo nday morning . And we went there, and I was the first person to get ther e th t morning , me and my brother-in-law. We went up on a bank and the union neve~ did see us. But when they began to gather in, to go to work, the union people they was on the picket line, they had the spies and they all came in there. And the union got to singing hymns and inviting people t o come to the ••• to be saved, t hat is come in and join the union. And th9 superintendent, Henderson, he c a me in and when he went to open the gate, why some of them caught his coattails and drug him backwards. So he said ev e rybody go home. o we all went home and in another week they notified us to gather up one day again a t 12 o'clock at the company office. That was the superintendent's office? Yeah, so that day we all come and there was number one, number two mill and we wa s going to try to start up number two mill. It was the b iggest mill. nd of course the union was evtErywhere. It was closed. h nd we got the ••• finally got the soldiers in there. 'l bey pushed t h em back. nd we got inside t h e lock. W ell, we had enough help to start the smaller mill. o they took us all ov e r to the smaller mill and we started up at 12 o'clock that day. Then after that, it was all over with. They cut the hours down at the mi l l. Of course all along they'd be.gun rais i ng the wag es. And I had got up to piecework and I made 18 dollars and 75 cents a we ek , five days and a half on piece work. ow many hours a d ay? W ell, I worked 12 hours a day b e cau s e every hour I worked was more money to me. They started t h e machi n e ry at 6 o 'clock in the morning, but I was always on hand to start my ·ob. Then me and somebody would work together, and he wo uld take my job am. his �J. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. too while I was of f to l u nch. And I'd come back and watch h is job and mine too and he would g o to luhch. So we never let our machinery stop. I was running frames in the card room, and it went on that way and after that was all over with, all blowed away, they went to putting one, couldn't have one man, put t ing two men on a ••• putting one man on the job two men had been running. And it just kept getting worse and worse. Was that after the strike in 1929? Yeah. ~hat was after that? Yeah. nd then they ••• thing s got so bad through the Depression and they cut us down to half a day at a time. I went of a morning and worked u ntil twelve and so mebody would come in and run my job in the afternoon. But I had a wife and at that time five children and I couldn 1 t feed anyone on it. So I quit and went into farming, and went to farming. Do you remember what year that was? In the early JO's? Yeah. The early JO's. And them people that was left up there, they didn't have no way to get out. But I had connections with that person who had some property. I was always pretty bad to talk and get acquainted and find about people, make friends with people. So I had connecti ons with a rich man who owned all this land from here, I mean right where this house is, and he rented me his farm a nd farmed it for five years. At that time, the cotton mills picked up again ••• still stretched out. e called it the stretch out. I went back to work to get my old job and I worked about five years. And I b ought a farm, southe ast of this county ri ght down near the Burke P ounty, Rutherford County line. W ent down ther e and stayed for six years. W a t community wa s that? h That's the Dysartsvill e Community. And after I sold out that place down the re, my motive t h en was to work out Social Security. Th en you cou ldn't carry Social Security if y u we ren't working for the company , but they chang6d theJaw after a while. nd in the meantime, by work i ng in the cotton mill I took what they call emphy sema, brownlung we called it. I was afraid to go back in t h e cotton mills on account of that so I went to Drexel Furnitu r e Company and went to work for them. Wher e is that? I t's up here in M arion. nd I worked there for 15 years. So I worked in t he cot t on mills for 15 years, I farmed for 15 years, and I worked for Drexel Furniture Company 15 years. I made 4 5 years u ntil I r e tir ed. Th e fir s t of this year will be 14 years after I retired. And as far a s the mountains is c oncerned, where I wa s rais ed, people wore out their land. ot to where it wou ldn't produce. One other thing tha t I didn't mention that i t g re w good was tobacco back in them mountains. Wa s there a good market for it? Yeah. Pe ople ma d e pret t y good money a t it. A lot of people, they didn't when I was a ch i ld, but af ter I got up about grown, people g ot into tobacco, raising tobacco and mad e more and more after I left. W been in this county about, a b out 5~ , ~ea!!B . fhat's e wh en we left Ma dison County. I was r ai sed inMAi~~ & · County , and my wife was raised in M adison County. ~ hat's mountain counties �4. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. and my daddy bought a farm in Madison County . Tha t 's how come we were living in Madison County when me and her wa s marr ied. And her father owned a farm a nd it was wore out when he g ot it, and he ain't ever d one muc h to build it up. And after me and her c om e here,her who le family come too, in about a yeBl'and lived here. Did they come to work in the mills? Yeah . The y c me to work in the mi l ls. I t was he a ven to them, to work in the mills and draw a payday, however small. But to have payday every week and they had about thr e e or four chi ldren old enough to work i n the mill . How old did you have to be before you could go to work in the mill? W ell, back when I was a child, they put c hildren in the mill that was e i ght years old. Eight years old? igh t years old. What did they have them doing? They were work i ng in t h e spinning r o om, spinning, swe eping the floor. I knowed a man, he 1 s been dead about two or three year· s. He told me he went in t he mill when he was eight y e a rs old, worke d there until he retired. He was an overseer for a bout lS or 20 years. But when my wife's p eople came here y ou h a d to be 14, a ch i ld h a d to be 14 years old. You had to prove your a ge. That wo u ld have been during the 2o•: s? Yeah . And then they got it up ••• Yeah, then I think they fina l ly got it up after I left there to where you had to be 16 before they let t hem work in the mills. But when I first come to the cotton mill with my brothers and sisters working i n there a nd have little children, brothers and sisters, and the y'd take them in there six, eight and ten years old and help to run. Anybody going · n the cotton mill worked. ~ here wasn't nothing to it. Did they pay, was th ere a pa y di ff erence for young ••• Yeah , you had to start off with the smallest wage and after you got to where you cou ld run piece work, of course,you g ot a raise. Paid better . 'pinners h a d to h a ve p iece work, we was in piece work and carders had to h ave piece work. hen they had day labor too. Hut the day labor never did work but ten hours. They let them off, they went to work at seven , let them off an hour lunch, and they quit at six that evening. iece workers, naturally, they would go mor e hours a nd then of course I was y oung, pretty ambitious a nd with family to support and I liked to get two hours more because I made more. But they f :!. nally-I'm gett i ng a ll this mixed up-they f l nal ly got a case against the union or ganizer. 'l' oo k h im to court. Tried him and he got a fine. • urned him loose, he r went on down t h e coun t ry somewhere , I for g et where he went to, went to organiz i ng down ther ~ and they got a case against him and they came to Mari on to l nvesti r at e wha t went on ab out him around here. And I don 't know exactly wha t the y ever did do with him. But he t old them he organized Kingsp ort, Tennes s ee, that he was over there or ganiz i ng, working on a union, to raise a union . ell, so me of the strikers here, to be sure, they went over th e re to check on him . They said that when they got there, the re was the roughest looking man they ever saw with two .45 pistols walk ing arou nd the gate , keeping the gate . Said they asked him had the mill ever been uni onized and said he went to cus sing , said no, it hadn't be e n organi 7.ed. ' hey run all the unions off. well, they �5. Q. A. Q• .8. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. run the most of them off here. hey was defeated. (inaudib le) ••• frie nds that hadn't jo i ned to beg for them and get them (inaudible) ••• But naturally, I have, all of my l i fe, been opposed to t he uni o ns. I think, now this is just my opinion, I may be 100 percent wrong, but I believe the unions is the thing that caused us to have the most troubles (i naudible) •• I think they are what is causing 1.us to have high prices now. Because when they organize where they have to pay u~i o n wages, they have to p a y s o much to pr0duce the stuff then they must let prices rise to come out on it. hen the poor class of people, people on ocial Security l i ke me a n d my wife, we h a ve to pinch pennies, to g et by. Buy only stuff t ha t's necessary. Of course, back in the Depressi on, during the JO's and late 20's, there were people who wer e out of work and strugg led to fesi their famili es . nd a 24-pound of flour about 65 cents, five pounds of su gar 25 cents, a pound of coffee 15, all suc h as that. In the Depression when th er e wa sn't so much union ••• ow, the people that have to pay the union wages, to g e t t h eir stuff produced have to have a big price on it to come out. And I guess the uni ons have done s orr.e good but I th ink it's done more dama ge than any k i. nd of good, taki ng all around. And I 've alwa ys been opposed to it and I guess I always will be. I 've had some people, some v e ry close friends belong. I n f a ct, some of my close relatives lost their jobs up her e on ac c ount of uni on. ~ hey hired so me back but some had to le ave. That's about all now,unless you want to ask questions. You can ask questions about anythi n g you want to. I ' l l do my b est to answer them. You we re sayi ng awhile ag o that one of the reasons you all c ame to M arion was because the farming wasn't all that good. Now, did you, your father owned the farm in M adison County but you said something about the soil th ere had been leached out, wouldn't grow very well. Could you have had part of that f arm yourself? No; there wasn't enough of it. There was just fifty acres. How many brothers did you have? I just had one • Just one brother? Only one of us could have l i ved on half of it. I t j ust wouldn ' t produce? No . It took the whole farm of fifty acres because it had been cleared up , mostly cleared up and worn out before my father bought it. M wife and father and mother, they had eight y c hildren when the y left there. He owned fifty acres, and his land was wore out. Most of it washed away up there in the mountains. It was steep cou ntry? Yeah . It was pretty straight up there • Is there any way to estimate what, say, it was possible to e a rn off of a farm of tha t size then? Well, you t ake a farm of tha t size, my f a ther was selling livestock and didn't mak e any grain to sell on that small place. Now, he did where I was raised, where he had so much land. But about, I 'd say about six hundred dollars a year was about wha t he got out of his livestock he had for sale. Of course, the �6. Q. living , he had his l i ving made there, he made it there. Didn't hav e to buy gr oceries or anything like that. About all the money he got was clea r to stick in his pocket, clear. 'Cause he made all his seed and in summertime he had pasture to run on. As far as having any money and investing it, why wit h out he too k a notion to buy so methi ng, he didn't have any at all. It was all cle a r. When I was a child on the farm, I was raised on, company land. I seen him in t h e fall of the year when lie'd sold his livestock, and wha t stuff he raised on his farm for sale, I ' ve known him sticking that money i n his pocket and going out over the country want i ng so mebody to loan it to. He didn't need it, didn't want it, didn't want to carry it. He got about six percent intere s t on it and he felt safer of course when he wasn't ca rryi n g it i n his p ocket. He just didn't want to carr y it arou nd. Go out and hunt somebod y to loan it to, and sometimes it was hard to do ••• Wasn't as much use for money then as ther e is or was later on, was there? A. No. Q. There wasn't mu ch you had to buy • The only person who would borrow it was somebody who wanted to add nore livestock. And of course, in them days, livestock all run outside, in the mountains, fenced up your fields. ~ ow in the mountain s it was ready to be put on the market in the fall. It got fat and was ready for t h e market . He just brought it off the r a nge and put it right on the market. An:i a year or two year-old ••• .Al,. End of tape #1, side 1 Beginning of side 2 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Your father owned tha t farm free and clear? Yeah , the last p lace. I n fact, that ' s the only p lace he ever owned. In M adison County? Yeah . He finally sold it out and came her e to Mari on too. So your family and your wife's family came to M arion? Yeah. Did they come for the expressed purpose of working in the mills? W orki ng in the cot t on mills. So you all pretty much figured it was, that staying on the farm of that size was not going to bring you suf f icient income to raise a family. Wel l , that wasn't my father's c oncern. He wasn't worrying about the income he made, he made as much money as he cared about. He wanted to get rid of the harder work. Working l n the cotton mill was not as hard work as running one of them mount ain farms. Of course, me and my brother wa s married. Just him and my mother we re living on the farm. He ca me here to work in the mill. Him and my mother both worked. M mother didn 't work too much y but she worked some. He sold out. He give ~35 0 for the place he owned. The feller except ed the timber but he had in the trade to saw him house timber. And he built a house out of great big boards, built a barn, cleared some land, built some fence. Kept it I don't know for how many years and he sold it for $2200. Aft er he comehere , a ft e r we all come here, he divided �Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. that $2200 with me and my brother, give me $1100 and give my brother $1100 . Of course, you take the mountain people who learn to do what they do themselves and lea rn how to do wi thout. And he saved money all the time,he laid money back all the time. Not much, but some that after a year or so it began to count up. He got enough money saved that he bought that place right across the road there where that house stood. He stared there for 12 or 15 years, I guess. When he retired,he got $ 22 a month and mother drawed off ofhim and she got half as much. 'he got $ 11. Both together got like $33 . Well , they laid away some of that every month, some of that $33 because they made everything we e a t r ight over there . This wasn't built up out in here as it is. It's farm country. There was one build i ng right out here, that house, and one out here on top of the hill. That 's all there was, just there at the top of the hill up yonder plumb down to Ne bo. Uns e ttled. How did you learn that the mil ls we re here? Well , I had friends tha t had left there and c orre here and worked. They came back home. vid they leave for the same reasons? Yeah , for the reasons coming to the co tton mill to work. When they came back home andyou learned from them, they were just visiting? Yes. I n fact, when me and my wife moved here there was a young man that we knowed had been h e re and worked and he came back with us. In 1918, when that awful flu ep:t.demic come in here. W was e here at c1·nchfield, and we had one ch i ld less than a year old who had flu. ('Wife speaks) No, we all had the flu and it looked ••• (Hicks r e sumes) No, it looked like it was going to be so long b e fore I could even get back to work, well, I had a little home ••• so we went back there and stayed a year and then come back. (wife speaks) Then we c ome back to the cotton mills . That would have been in the early 20 1 s? (wife) Yeah , the la st time we come back. And you came back th a t time to stay? Yeah. 1e been here ever since. I n this country, but not whe r e we'r e living. Here in McDowell County. The people who we re working in the mills during the early 20 1 s after you all came back, came h e re the second time, were they from McDowell County? No . M ost of the people in M cDowell County wouldn't work in ••• might few people from McDowell County that would work in the cot ton mills at all. Only a few people? Mighty few. It was a disgrace for people in this county t o work in a cot t on mill . I t was made up of mountain people. (wife speaks) That 's all it was •• ( inau d ible) (Hicks resumes) M adison, Haywood , Mitchell, Yancey, Avery , Watauga countie s. ost of the people that wo~ked here was from Haywood County where I come f rom. M ost of the people i n Clinchfield? Yeah . Some people would get maybe in debt back at home. Th ey had a home, but they'd get in debt and couldn't ••• an:l they'd come here, their whole f amily, go to work until they paid that debt. �8. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. When they paid t h is debt, they'd take off back home. Is it your fe e ling that the people that came here from the other counties to work in the mills came for the reasons you've said. That is, it was either impossible or hard to make a good living on the farm? Yeah . And the reason they came here was because they might find work a little easier and there was some more money? Yeah. In the end of the year, you co 1ld make more money up here in a cotton mill than you would out on the farm. But people lived hard. The houses were cheap. The house we l ived in, y ou co ld set in the house and see daylight almo yt anywhere you looked. W s that the mill house? a That was the mill h ous e . They'd have people ••• they finally at last sold them to the hands . Most all the houses repaired (inaudible) nd what did you pay for rent? 45 cents a week for a three-room house. nd wh en you first started in the mills, y ou were making somewhere near $10 a week? Yeah, around that. When people in, say, ~ adison County were looking around for something to do other than stay on the farm, wha t else could they have done, say, besides stay there or come to the mi l ls? Wa s there a lot of timbering back then? No , not then. When people began to c ome to the mills,the timber business was ove r with. Peop le had log , ed out all. the timber. What was the name of the comp any that owned all the farm where you were born? W as it a lumber company? No, it was just a big land company. Uptogo (?) I believe was the name of the company a nd then the Boise Hardwood Lumb e r Company finally bought the whole mountain. Boise? Yeah, Boise Hardwood Lumber Company . nd they built a narrowguage railroad up in them mountains and set their band mill at Hartford , Tennessee. ell, they were working on that when I left. Of course, I could have went to work for them but it was a little too rough, for me. I went down there and helped t h em clean off the ri ght of way for the railroad up Pigeon River. That was after me and my wife got married . And of course one thing that bluffed me out on it, everythin g in the whole country c ame in ther e to work. On that railroad? Yeah . Cutting timber and logg ing . Drunkards, murderers, everything else . I t wasn't no fit place I felt like to raise a family. And , I help ed clean off the right of way on Pigeon tliver. I-40 goes down through there. (wife speaks ) Where he was raised, now it's a game pres e rve. vhat' s the name of it? (Hi cks resumes) Yeah , in orth Carolina and part in Tennessee . Have y ou ever be en down I - 40? Yes sir. I know a fellow who lives out at t h e foot of l t. J;'.isgah. He 's out on the Pigeon River . Clark's his name (inaudible). 1 �A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A • Q. A • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. rr you went down I - 40, do you kn ow that W alters (?) dam, that dammed up P igeon River? uns the water through the moun ta _ns and comes out at 1v'a terville? 'r o a powerhouse? I know wher e the river's down below I - 40 there. But I don't remember it . Well , I don't guess you've ever noticed ••• (wife speaks) Did you see the powerhouse when you ••• ? (Hicks resu mes) W ell, back up t h is way there's a sign up there tm.t says the Harmon Den , on a post . I remember t hat . Well , right there, just a lit t le piece up that creek was wher e I was barned an d raised . That is up and down country , isn ' t it? Yeah . Good bit steeper t h an around here? I've t o ok peop le down through there and told them I helped clear off that right of way . The~ say I don ' t see how you stood up on that hill . And I could n t now of course , but I could then , when I was a young man . hey say people had one leg shorter than the other so they could stand on the ~ide of a hill . (pause) You said that when you came here you d i dn t h a ve to live in the mill village? No . You didn ' t ha re to but it was cheaper . And ther e weren ' t too many houses for rent other than in the mill village . or course , the cotton mill company wanted you to live in their houses . But you didn;t have to? No, you didn t have to • Did y ou have - to at East arion? No , you didn't exactly have to but they were the same way . They wanted them to live in them . (wife sp ea ks) They h ad bet t er houses at East 1arion . They did? (Hicks) ~eah . When you start e d out you were working ten hours a day, ri v e and one - h a lf days a week . Did that chang e much during the 20 1 s? At some point i n there you went to a 12- h our day . Ye ah . It changed a lot , now . or course, think t he.y start up n ow and run maybe ten hours and the day labor works eight . But , when I was runni ng frames on piece work , in the number two mill , it's the biggest mill, the one next to th e highway, there were 23 frame hands in th u t card room to maJ.re roping to make thread for yarn spinning . And they put in new machinery, bi gge r machinery , and the last time I was talk i ng to people that lived and was work i ng there , they got three hands doing what us 23 done . · 'hat is a stretch out isn't it? Yeah, that's a s t retch out . Did you start out working as ai. carder? Yeah , I went to runni~cards . What s being a carder? What does that mean? Well; that's where the raw c otton comes and you start it into roping, about the size ofyour finger . It first comes to the lap room . They make it into big round laps , runs through two machi nes im there . nd they take a lot of the waste out of it . And they make big laps and br i ng it in there and hang it on the backs or card s . And when the laps run out we laid it down on a roller , stuck the end of it i n there and it would conB through . �10. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. Q. • Q. A. Q. • Q. And we carded it and took a lot more waste out of it. and made that roping . Then we took that roping in cans to the drawing f r ames . Them drawing frames, they run it through two mach i nes there, front d r awing and bac k d.J:rawing. Then it went from there to what they called slubbers, gre a t bi g heavy work. That was the first piece work I ever did, running slubb ers. Then it went to the intermediates. Tha t wa s the job I run the most . nd they took the slubb e rs ••• (inaudible). Then we run it through them interme d iat e s a nd it cut it down to about fourth of tha t size. But we had to run two spools of cotton togethe r. That is , t~ of the same size. Then it went from there to tre spe eders. nd th ey had to run two together there . And tha t cut it down to a smaller thread . nd a stouter thread. fhen it went from th e re t o th e spinning room and the y respun it on spinning reels. l n the spinning room. Then it went from the spinning room into t h e weav e shop . Did y ou ever work in weaving? Yeah , I worked in weaving one ti e. First time I ev e r come her e I worked in the weave roo m. Did Clinchfield do any finishing then? Or print ing? No, they d i dn't do any fin ishing. Just white cloth • Did East ari on? Yeah . They finished cloth ov e r there. (wife sp e aks) They do now. I don't know whether the y used to ••• (Hicks resumes) They didn 't the n , when I was working in the mill, but the y do now. They make rayon and use man - made f i b e r over there. Let me ask you a question about the mills . Was it possible to move up in a job? Like to be a boss or foreman or something? W s that pr etty easy or were there so many people that it w s a hard to do? No, it wasn' t hard to do . It was easy to bu i ld up to it. I built up to that and wo uldn't take the job . Because I didn't feel like I could put up with the agg ravating help . I was pretty high -tempered . I knowed ~ e andthem was go i ng to have trouble, becau se t hey failed to do wha t they were suppos ed to do. ow when the bosses got on them, they'd argue back and they just wouldn't fire anybod y . About the only way they'd fire anybody was on account of bad char ct e r. I f he t u rned ou t to hav~ a bad character, why they ' d f ire him right on the spot. But doing bad work, they wouldn't necessarily fire ••• They wouldn't fire you for that. They'd c o me around and raise sand with y ou, but they wouldn't fire you for it. We re there plenty of jobs? W as there lots of people tryi n g to get in the mills then or was the re just a few jobs open? No. There was plenty of jobs. And a lot of peop le co me and there was h a rdly a n ybody come tha t didn't g e t a job. They was always ne eding help. 'l 'hat was du r ing the 20 1 s ? Yeah, because tha t was wh en t h e people wa s coming out of the mou ntains and off of the fa r ms and they s oon got dissatis f ied and went back home . Did a lot o f that happen? Lot of t h em come in, they 'd work a nd then they went back home? Yeah , they'd go back home and usually after they went back home and stayed a year, year and a half, two years , t hey'd come back. And pr ob ably stay the rest of th e ir lives th a t time. �11. Q. A. Q. • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Why did they go back to the farms i n the first place? W ell, because they'd got dissatisfied . Dissatisfied with the mills . (wife speaks) Some of them would come to work out money to buy more land with, or improve their land some . Oh , the y 'd come and get more money to buy a bigger farm? (Hicks resumes) Yeah . But them that did that, usually when they went back home, they stayed . But the ones that did come because they kinda got tired of farm ng , in fact young people, children, th ey all had to leav e the home to get a job. Why wa.s that? W ell , there weren't a ny jobs there , only just the farm • And -the farm would only support • .• That was the only sup p ort t here was, and the young peop le didn't much like it . They wanted payday coming in . You stayed i n Cl i nchfield pretty much duri n g the 20 1 s . Or did you ever work East Marion? Or one of the other mills? Yeah , I went ov e r th e re one time and worked with them awhile . t East Marion? Yeah , after I went out on the farm . I got some lei~ure and didn't h a ve nothing to do and I went back up to Clinchfield and they just didn ' t have nothing for me . They told me to go over to ~ st Marion and tell them that they sent me over there . And I went ov e r there a nd told the overseer that I 'd been sent over there to work about three weeks . He said, well I can't do nothing but put y ou to work here . Come in in the morning and work . So , I worked there thre e weeks . I I That would h a ve been during the 30 s, wouldn t it? No, that was in the early 40's . That was after I'd moved and bought that farm . Ioved out on that farm . It was after c rops was laid by and everything was over . 1 But up to that time that you all left during the early 30 s , you stayed in Clinchfield? Yep. I was in Clinchfield . At the time y ou left Cli n chfield , how many hours a week wer e you working? I was wo rking 55 . 55 . Do you remember wha t you were bringing home in pay then? Do you rememb e r what y ou were being paid? Yeah . I was makin~ $18 . ?S (inaudible) . But inthe early 30 s they we re c ut ting back hours and ••• Yeah . (wife speaks) ••• ri ght after the war , the First W orld War • We re the wages during the 20 1 s pretty much steadily going up? No, they didn't go up fast . ow , I might AO a I little politicking . I I don t know what your politics are . But that s all right . I like you just as g o od to be one as the other . nd , right after World War One , let's see , who was elected? arren G. Harding . · ell , after the election was ov e r with , they c ome around and cut me down to 85 cents . After the electi on, I was cut down fran a doll a r . Why was that? Just because t hey could . And I don 1 t knov if poll tics had any thing to do with it or not. But I always blamed Warren · G. Harding for it . Because he was president when I got cut . Were the bosses trying to tell you how to vote? W ell , up here at Clinchfield , they wanted you to vote straight De mocrati c tick e t . And if you wasn ' t a Democrat , you didn ' t fare too g ood . �12. Q. A. Q. A. • • Q. Ji But you could get a job if you we re ••• ? Oh y eah. You could get a job and stay, but they giv e you the c old shoulder if you wasn't a Democrat. Do you know if that wa s the same thing at East ari on? Yeah, t h e same thin g at East 1ari on. They wanted you to be a Democrat~ Yeah. But now at Drexel Furniture Factory I worked at, you h a d to be a Republican to get any favor up there. They wanted you to vobe a straight Republican ticket and all my overseers was Republican. They led me pretty high . Wh en Nixon wa s running against ~enne dy, they come around, several of them, and t old me that they'd done found out that ixon was going to be elected so I 'd better turn ove r and vote for him. I told t h em he wo uldn't be elect ed, thi;t I d i dn't think so, that he wruld. o I had it I back in my favor. Of course, I didn t rub it in on any of them, after Kennedy was elected,you know , and Nixon got beat. But I never could understand how Nixon ever could get elected. Then after this Water ate mess, he got elected like all therest of them do because he had plenty of money or the people that h a d I the money was backing him ••• (inaudible). But it wasn t too long a f ter that that I got on piece work. ow when you went in there running c ards like I started running cards, they'd tell you that if there was anything you'd rather do besides the job you had, when you got a few minute s off your job, go and work a t it. nd help the hand that was running it. And as quick as y ou got to where they thou ght you could run that job, pretty well, why they 'd giv e it to you . Give you this same kind of job. The turnover in the work was awful fast ••• (inaudible). Do you know why t hat wa s? That t h ere was so much turnover? W ell, one thing was, they began that stretch-out system. Of course, it wasn't too bad at that time, but it started in that direction and the people that come from 0 outh Caroli n a up here, just droves of them. I n fact, all our overseers was fro m ~outh Carolina. (inaudible) And they'd co me here and they didn't like North Carol ina. They didn't like the temperature and they d idn't like the people, didn't like the mills, didn't li~e nothing about it. Well , they wou ldn't stay long before they'd go back to South Carolina. And they might co me back aga i n. 3ome of them did. Of course, some come and stayed. ow all the ove rse e rs up there was fr om South Carolina. And I said awhile a g o where I was off e red an overseer's place, you had first to start off, they c alled it a fixer. You had to keep the machinery repaired. They held you res p on sible for the work, the machinery. And some people would get c areless and make bad work and when they got on them ab out it, they'd swear that the machine wasn't working right. So then they'd g et the fixer up and they'd give him a bawling out. And when the fixer got on to the help, for the work, why they (inaudible) to tell him what they thought of him. A~d they didn't hesitate to speak with him. I heard them talk to the fixers and that was why I was glad li wasn't a fixer after I heard what they said. Then you went from there to what you called a second hand. He was over the fixers. nd he had a boss carder over him, and a lot of them went on to be the boss carder, the boss weaver, and the boss spinner. After the old ones all died out. End Tape #1 Begin Tap e #2, side 1 �13 . Q. A • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • You were saying that the fellow you bought thi s land here from was telling you that the bus i nessmen i n larion didn ' t want the Clinc hfield mills to come in here? No, they didn ' t want it to c ome . The people here knowed that their people wasn ' t going to work at it . And then they regretted the people t hat it brought in . ( i naudible) too many bad peop le . But they fell in love with them old mountain people , when the y come here . They found them to be truthful and honest . Whi c h they didn ' t exp e ct them to be . rrl they liked them . Got along wi th the m and r e s pect e d them . You were s aying that a lot of people who might hav e been av ailable in McDowell County to work i n the mills didn ' t . You ever find out why? No . W ell , they just , it was a disgrace . They consid ered it a disgr a ce , to work in the c otton mills . That was the people who were , say , farmi n g here in McDowell Coun t y? Yep . They lived around here , they was born and raised here , and they lived hard . They lived a whole l o t harder than they would if they ' d have worked in the mills . But they just c ouldn ' t take a bossman . They didn ' t want no boss i ng . So they eked out a li v ing out in the soil . And a f e w of them , a l o t of them , work ed on the side and made a little blockade liquor . Most of them ended up inthe chain gang before it was over with . They'd just rather live off of what the y could make out o n the farm . You farme d ••• You we r e on a farm in adison County and a farm in this ar e a . Woul d farming have b e en any eas i er or more profitable here? Oh y e s . It was more profitable he r e , of course . I f a rmed with a man that had an extra good farm . t had been well took c a re of and handed down thr ough his grandfather . nd he finally (i n audible) . He was a M urphy . And his grandfather at one time had owned 100 Negro slaves . And he built bri c k houses and burnt the bri c k on the place where he built the hou se s for the colo red people . • hey finally come on down to Condre y (?) , t h e g randson and gr a nddaughter . There were two granddaughters and one grandson a ndth em three got all his property . Was tha t this property , here , or · n Dysartsville? No , it was this here . I don ' t know , it was about fi v e or six hundred acres , all told . Arrl he had a riv e r farm but the Duke Power Company bought his river l a nd and put water up on it . nd he heired a lot of wealth from his mo t he r. (wife speaks) She was a M urphy and married a Condrey . (Hi c ks r e sumes) Arrl he had plenty of mcn ey and he was a hard man to get any of it out of . He stuc k to it . I n the 20 1 s and JO's , when you were in the mills , were there any black people work"ng i n the mills? Nothing only the scrub b ers . The y h ired a colored man to scrub and (inau d ible) • Then it must h a ve been co pany policy not to h i re bla c k people ? Yeah . Jell , them mounta i n people - wh e r e we re you raised at , in the mounta i ns or down in the cou ntry? Down farther east . ell , I can g iv e you a little informati on about that . ow , them W mountain people was awful op p os ed to the colored people . hey didn ' t allow them in the mountains . If one went back th e re , they killed him . And the peo ple that was work i ng in the mills would have left if they ' d ever put a colored pe rson in there �J.4. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.. A. Q. running a nything other than scrubbing. Scrub b ing the floors (inaudible). Now they're using some of them now, but they couldn't back then b e cause t h e people wou ldn't bear for it. Up to the time when, you left the mills, there were no black people work ing ••• No black people in th e re. Only the scrubbers. During the 20 1 s and before you left the mills, how were mill workers, people tha t worked in the mills like yourself, how were they treated around town? When you went to town to do some shopping or something? Wel l , they was high ly respected by the bus · nesses in town because the bus i nesses in town knowed that Wu S where their mo ney was comi n g from. And they knowed they was go i ng to get ev e ryt h ing that the mill peo p le got ahold of. So where busin es smen might h a ve opposed the mills coming in, they were happy once the mill workers were here spending their money? When they was getting the money. nd the peo p le that was opposed to it ever be i ng put here was happy about it once it got here. Another thing. You were say ing ear lier that at some point some of your bosses, i mmediate bos s es, were from South Carolina. Yeah . W ell, the main overseer was. Was that true most of the time during the 20 1 s and early JO's? Why was that? Did they ••• ? Well , they ••• North Carol i na peop le didn't know the cotton mills. And you know that ' outh Carolina was full of cotton mills and everybody worked the cotton mills down there. (wife speaks) They didn't raise no cotton in orth Carolina much . (Hicks resumes) And they knowed the mills . And sev e ral of them ••• my overseer and a lot of the other overse e rs, the main overse e r, when they found out that the mills was going to come here to arion , they took correspo ndence co u rses in textiles. So they come prepared to •• educati on for work and all . ~nd they really could handle the cot on mill machinery . l'hey really coul d. I mean in running the mac h i nery. aking rope and thread and stuff like that. It seemed to be na tural, b e c a use they had be en raised with it. Do you know where Clinchfield and East ar i on got most of the raw cotton they proces s ed? Well , they got it out of the main market . The c otton market. (inaudible) that bought and sold to these companies ••• (w ife speaks) It come from South Carolina mostly ••• (Hic k s resumes) W ell , most of it did (inaudible) Anywhere t hey raised cotton. Now , a t the time of the Depression , big cotton farmers come ·here to try to sell t h eir cotton direct to the companies. Did t hat work? No. Th e company wouldn't b u y it. They to l d t h em to sell it to these companies and they'd rebuy it from thEm. Shipped up here by the carlo a d, one carload after another . Why wouldn't they buy it direct? Well , they had a standing contra ct with these bi g companies and naturally the peo p le that have the mo ney get th i ngs dore the way they wanted done. The big cotton-buying co mpanies that bought the cotton and then s old it to, say, Clinchfield . Do you know wher e they wer e ? ere they in Balti more? Or New York? W �A. Q. A • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. W ell , they was way off somewhere . I don't k now for sure where the y was at, but t h ey s e nt men i n at the fall of th e year , you know, t o bid on the ~o tton for ginning . There never was but one cotton gin in North Carolina that I know of . It wa s down near crest City . It's gone out of business , I thin k , now . It was a small unit. Let me ask you another que s ti on about that strike in 1929 . About how many peo p le in C1inchfield were part of the union or supported the strike? I ' d say about , there was about one f::l:fth :,at Cli nchfield . Of course there wa s more than tha t at East M ari on . And there was about 70 0 p e ople at work in Clinchfield? Then , in 1929? Yes . At Cl "nchf ield, at the mill . And I don ' t know how many worked at East ari on . It was a smaller mill than either one of these up here . But there wa s about half of the people at East arion that claimed for it . Finally got two or three kil l ed over there . Why was it that the workers at East arion supporte d it more than at Cl i nchfield? I don ' t know ••• I never have be e n able to understand that . It r eally was a bett e r place to work t b an Clinchfield. t was? Yeah , it was . Was it better in t e rms of the mo ney you made or •.• ? o, it wa s not the money but the work : ng conditions was bett e r . You said earlier that the mill village at East Hari on had better houses? (wife speaks) Yeah. (Hicks speaks) W l l , East t arion had better e homes for the people to live in . (wife r esumes) ••• loo ked nicer on the outside . I never have been in one of them . before . Did you all know many of the peop le tha t worked at East Mar ·o n? Yeah . I knowed a lot of the m. I knowed some of them well , one of the old men that got killed was from Clinchfield . Do you remember his name? Yes . He was a Vickers . I knew him well . Sam Vi c kers? Yeah . (wife speaks) He co . e from D ~ sartsville to the cotton mills . (H ick s resumes) He got into the union . And some of them w&s so stubborn that they wo uldn't have went back if the company had told them to . But the most of them they wou ldn't let come back . M ost of them th a t joined the uni on? Yeah . nd they come around , I lived up here at Clinchfield at that time, and they co me around one morning with a bi g old mega phone horn , around in a car . I was just getting ready to go to work . They was hollering that everybody at East ar i on had been run off . Ev e rybody at East M arin has been run off . Tha t 's all they said . W ell , the people h ere from Cl i nchfield , well , that joined the uni o n and was sticking to it , t h e y just took off ar:rl went over there . But when they got there , why people was bunched up into two bunches, union here and the non- uni o n up here • And there was so me people, somehow, I don't k now how they d one it , some of them had got in the mill . nd they was up in the card room , up in the spinning room top floor , and they got a rifle in the re . And the union f i nally at last went to sho oting guns (inaudible) �16. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. And there wa s three peop le killed. One wa s old man J ona s. e was from East lar ion. Old Sam Vickers and I forget the other fel l er's name . (wife) He was a g ood old man, Vickers was. (Hic k s res u mes) Yes , he was. He just got into that union. e liv ed,he had a home, he had a farm in Dysartsville. And he had left it to come up here, but he was raised in hutherford County . ~ nd he c ome up here and went to work. Had a great big bunch of girls. (inaudible) Who wa s it ••• how was t h e union organized at Clinchfield? LJid they get a couple of t h e workers to go a round and talk to each person abou t joining? Yeah . They first went to h olding a meeting about halfway b etween Clinchfield and East r i on. nd a few of the Cli n chfield peop le went out there and they liked what the o ld man promised them. Promtsed t h em shorter hou rs and higher wages. If one of them d i dn t like the boss, they'd run him off. So forth and so on. They was going to appoin t common workers to be the hea4 man. nd there was one old man, he was a Baker, and he didn t know a thing l n the world about a card room. He could run, i fi the picker r oom making them first laps. But that was about all he k nowed. But they t o ld him if he joined t h e union, they'd make him a boss carder. ' o before the mill closed down, he come around to the card room there and he off e red me a second hand job if I 'd come work for him when he got t hy place. I told him, oh yeah, yeah. Of course, I knowed he wasn t going to get placed . And so he g ot run off thinking that I -wou ld have been his boss man if he had gotten the job they offered him. nd he couldn ' t have run the (inaudible) , much less the card room. And the peop le got to talking it up, the ones that, had joined. Of course, they was I awful secretive about it. rhey didn t want many people to know at Clinchfield. And ••• They were afraid of losin g their jobs? Yeah. They was afraid of losing their j obs. Out they'd t a lk it a lit t le and the strikers got gathering up at night after we went back to work and they'd sh oot dynamite all night. 1 ight around the mill villag e. Hard for a ma n to sleep. I can tell y ou one pretty goo~ tale about that. I don't knew whether we ought to go into that or not. But there wa s a fel le r when them strikers, he had a little old dog ab out the size of that one and they'd t rained it to t h row st i cks and it would go and get them. Bring them back. That feller decided to get even with them. e got him some dynamite and he loaded up a stick one night and throwed it down toward the ra i lro a d. ell, that little dog seen him throw it and he went and got it and brought it back. Got it back into his yard before it exploded. I asked him , I said if, ever find any of your dog . And he said no I never did find a p iece of it. Blowed it all away, (wife spea k s) inaudible . I was read i ng in the newspaper in 1arion , had stories abou t the strike and there was one thing I wa s reading about . Said they had caravans d u ring the strike when both the mills were closed down, ca ravans of farmers that we r e br:k:ging food i n for the strikers. Do you know who organized them, or why? Yeah. A lot of them did. The strikers organized it, but, they got it started . But they made the farm e rs think they was winning, go ng to win, and it would be up to them to buy the farm e rs' food wh en ev e rything was over. lild a lot of people ••• �17. Q. A. Q. A. that wa s the day of th e horse and wagon and a lot of farmers would bri ng a wagon-load of food in to the strikers and park somewhere and they'd come and get it . Then the union went to order i ng when they got out of any thing to eat. The strikers all had a good garden. Everybody at Clinchf ield had a good garden . And the strikers, the union man told them t o divide their gardens with peo p le that didn't have any. W ell, they'd come in the r e, they'd pick tomatoes, they'd p ick potatoes , they p i ck a row of corn, and in a day or two's time the y could clean his garden out. nd they went to Hoffman , the head man , and told him that they had to have something to eat. lild he ordered a carload of flour. It come, and people told me that had a right to know , they said it was from great .big rolli n g mills where they'd sweep up of a tjight the flour that had sifted out on the floor. They put it in bags and he ordered it. The people that seen it, I never did see it , they said it was just as black as tar. People got to eating that and the y all got sick. But the farmers in the outlying areas were willing to do that because they ••• Yeah , t hey thought ••• the uni on had them thinking that the y were just going to take over. And they was going to help most of them people buy their products when it was all over with. rnd they'd bring it in just to give out to them. You were saying earlier that some peo ple at the Clinchfield mills had sort of taken you i nto their confidence and were telling you how everything was going to work. Was that y our supervisors? Yeah . No, not my supervisors. Me and him was very close together and he kept me i nformed all the time what wa s going to happen . I know the union c.ome to me, sent a special group , come to my h ouse right late one evening. tl nd they told me that they was giving me, since they liked me , they was giving me my last c hance to join t he union . And i f I didn't, I was going to have to leav e . Going to r u n me off if I didn't join the union. And I knowed then that th ey was the ones that was goi n g to lea ve, and I was going to stay. Th e way they come about it, they kind of tole me now since y ou are a special friend of ours, we're giving you a special c hance to join the uni on. You c an get in without p aying any dues or anythi ng for so long . And I said, well, I pretended gnorant i n it. Of course, I co u ldn't say nothing else. I asked them, I said well, what am I promised1 They said s h orter hours and higher wages. I said, well, when do I go to work? I 'm ready to g o to wor k for shorter h ours and higher wages. I pretended that I thought theunion was going to pay it, you know . They said, n o, we're just going to make the company do this . I said, well, if you ' re go ing to make the company do that, I can do just as good a job at that as you can. ~ o just count me out. I won't fool with it . nd the loyal help up there , the y made it so hard on the strikers after we all got back to work, after the mills was running, they mad e it so hard on the strikers that they j ust pulled up and left as fast a s t hey cou ld get away . The company used so me tri cks too . They went down here somewhere about outh Caro lina and the y got the roug hest old man and the sweari ge st o ld man and the most profane old man I ever saw and �18. Q.1 ., A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. he loaded up some household g oods i n a stati o n wagon. i nd the union didn't think nothing. He come right on throughthe strikers. And went to the office. They t ook back ovec there and showed him an e mpty house and he put that stuff in that hou s e. 'l hey locked the door. W ell, the uni on found out . Uow I was working at the time up in the card room. I didn't do much work. I stayed at the window to watch them mostly. I seen everything that happened. They'd done had the soldiers up here in town, but hadn't brung them down. They went over there, and t here was an old man, a good old man, agood friend of mine. ound the door locked, they didn't k now wha t to do. He said it wou ldn't do to let that old man move in there. So that old man that I 'd put so much faith in, he took a stick and he broke the lock off tre back door of that house. Was it the h ouse he was living in? The house t his old man had put his stuff in . He just , he put it in the re a nd he left. nd they carried that stuff out there and throwed it across the hi ghway. I n front of the mill. And the company sent a wagon team out there to get it. W ell, when they got out there, when they got to doing that, two big old mules, and they got them mules by the bridles and everyone had a club. And they got to beating them m ules ove r the head and most everywhere. (wife speaks) The un i on people. (Hicks resumes) And they wouldn't let t h em come back. So that's when the soldiers, they brou ght the soldiers in. nd they said, the union said, the so l diers was here to see that the rest of us left. That was what they said. Well , the soldiers corre down here and they, with fix ed bayonets, a n d they went to putting half of them this way and half of them the other way. One old man- I could se e h im fro m where I wa s at-he stood his ground. He wa sn't going to run, a nd o ne of the soldiers give him a good poke in the backside with that bayonet and I mean tha t old man could outrun a mule af t er that. He just left there . fini then the soldiers stayed up there for about a week. (wife) Se ems to me they stayed lo n ger than that. Why was it the company went and got that feller from ~outh Carolina and brou ght him her e with his furniture? It was after we had went back to work. And then after trey p ut his household goods back, they brought some more. Then he cane he r e and they worked him ab out a month. I was glad when he left . He was ••• (wife speaks) but he said why did they, why d d they have h im t o come? (Hicks resumes) Well , they had him to come for j ust exactly what happ ened. They knowed that the strikers would tear his stuff up. Oh . '.!.'hey wanted to get the strikers to do sore thing, to provoke them? Yeah . ~ o the soldiers would come. Yeah . And tre soldiEr s, they'd told them t h e y wouldn't c ome down here, trey was already up here in the courthouse. But they wouldn't let t h em come without there was some violence erupted somewhere. And they went and got that old ••• and he was the feller that got it started. Was the r e anythi n g el s e you co u ld rem ember abo ut whether or not the company had a plan to deal with the union? Did the y tell you other things that they might have thought about doi n g? Well , t h e¥ just aimed to be · t them. That was all there was to it. They d i dn t aim to run under a union . nd the Cli nchfield company �19 . Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. • Q. • Q. A. did know that they h ad enough lo yal help to start up. ~hey knowed it wouldn't be no trou ble to g e t e n ou g h . nd they just d idn't aim to run under a uni on. And that old man, bri nging him in, he was the feller t ha t tur ned the tide. He brought the soldiers, he help ed brin g the soldiers, arrl tm soldiers could break t h e pickets at the gate? Yeah. W ere there a n y other k i nds of tr i cks l i ke that th a t either side used, that you could recall? W ell, not very much , I don't reck on. Now, t he company, after they g ot back to work, the union members that was still in com pany hou s es, they notif ied them to g et out. nd some of them left and the most of them didn't. nd they went a nd put their stuff out i n the street. Or on the side of tbe street. t he c ompany a nd the law did. Evicted them? Just piled it up on the si d e of the street. W ell, the uni on people they s ome h ow found some kind o f house a nd some of them went back home. The y was all fr om the mountains. nd some of them went bac k home and some of t h em found a house. I had one of my mother's brothers got into t h e union and one of my daddy's brothers g ot i nto it. nd my daddy's brother lived way down h ere a t ebo. And he was go ing back a nd forth to work. And they fired him. And my mother's b r other, they got him a house over the r e s omewhe re. And he went there and lived until he could find a place t o mo v e. He went ou t on the f a rm. ' tay ed th ere as l ong as he lived. I s the re a nything that made the people that join ed the union any dif f erent fro m t h o s e that didn't? I mean, were they like fr om a diff e r e nt a r ea? Or did t h ey have anything in common? ell, they was all fro m th~. mounta i ns. But the ones tha t I k now e d W from t h e mountains a nd back i n where we co ne from was co n sidered to be boss y and ov e rbearing. That was the way . the y l o oked on t h em back there at home. W ere they the ones that joined the union? Yeah. They was t h e ones that join ed the union. And th ey was people that had had their way where they'd lived. ~ ecause people was afraid of them. Sort of bossy and mean? They were bossy and overb e a r i ng. 1 W ere t h ey y ounger tha n tm people that didn t join the union? Wa s there any age difference? No, they were mostly middle-age peop le that joined. Mostly families, that had a man at the head of t he family. nd of course the b osses had always made t h em mad. h ey'd come around arrl bawl them ou t about somethi ng. W ere t h e y g ood work ers? Or were they poorer workers t han t h o s e that didn't join the uni o n? W ell, they just d o n e wha:; they had to do. uot by with anything the y cou ld. he ones tha t I knowed. Did any of your close friends join t h e uni on? Yeah • We re you all still clos e friends t h en? Yeah. I never did hold that against t h em, because some of them I talked to, I t old t h e m I said now I don't believe in t h e u nion. I don't want t h e uni ons. rlut you do ••• n d of Tape # 2, s i de 1 Be gin Tape #2, side 2 �. . 20. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. l'i.. Q. • Q. A. • A. Q. A. After they broke the strike and broke the union, were most of those people that was in Clinchfield that were in the uni on, they eventually g ot them o u t of the mill? They run them out one way or the other? · Yeah. Some of than t ore up their houses before they left (inaudible). How did the company ••• did they just fire them or make it rough on them? They just fired them. Right off. ost of them. Fired most of them~ Yeah. Vo you k now where they went? W ell, they scattered about everywhere. ~ome of them went out through the coun try around through M cDowell County and some went back to Madison , Haywood , Mitchell County, very Cou nty, Y111 cey, back in there where they care from. 'ome of them stayed around McDowell County as long as they 1 ived. 1:y uncle ••• both my uncles did. Of course, my daddy's brother, he owned a home h e re at Nebo. nd worked in the mills I don't know how many years. A lot l onger than we had. He ha.d a great big bunch of g irls and they all worked (wife) They still live around here. (Hicks . resumes) They give him what they got for their work. It was the change that come in their ticket. Say they drawed a ticket for $10.50. He give them the 50 cents. He took the $10. That's the way most of the parents did. ~nd he saved up enough money to buy him a home. He had it when he died. A lot of tte parents, they just let the children pay so much board. Was there a lot of women that worked in the mills? Ye ah. There was more women than there was men. M ore women than men . Did they do pretty much the same jobs that the men did? Yeah . About the same thing. LJid they get paid about the same? Paid the same. All except n ow the rough end of the card room where I was. L ike the carders, and drawers and intermediates. '.l'hey was run by men. But the f i ner spinners, the speeders, that made the f ner yarn, they was all most run by women. Did they also work i n weaving? Yeah. Abcut as many women as there was men in t h e weaving. What about ••• what d id the women do? uid they join the union in about equal num bers, or were there fewer women? No. Th ere wasn't hardly any joined • The union was mostly men1 Yeah . Was that true at East larion too? No . I thi nk it was a loy of women joined over there. I tell you ••• That thing's off now ain t it? You got it cut off now ain't you? No. It 1 s still on. You want me to stop it? No. I don't care anybody knowing what I got, was fixi ng to say. Th e re was one of our next-door neighbors up there at Cl inchfield. And he joined the union and he had a little ch ld take sick. A little girl, and he sent after me one evening to come out there as quick as I could. And I got out there and him and his wife left the r o om with a little child, and asked me to go in there and stay with it. And ~ went in there and it died in five minutes after I got t here. W ell, he had a sister that lived at East arion. Her �21. Q. A. husband belong ed to the union ove r there and they hadn't never went bac·k to work. And everybody that belong ed to theunion seemed to think that if you didn't belong to it y ou ought to be afraid of it. fraid of physical dama g e. He asked me, he said Perry are you afraid to go to Ea.st M ari on? I said no sir, I ain't afraid to go to East M ari on. He said you go over there, told me what house his sist e r lived in and tell my sister to come over here 1 that baby's dead. So I went to the house and pecked on the door 1 and she come to the door and I told her my business. hat her brother's baby had died, s ent for her. She said, well, I'll have to se e my husband. He's down there on the picket line. That was before East Mari en had ever started up. Said, I 1 11 h a ve to go down there,and se e him. Sa id I guess you're afraid to go down there, ain t you? I said no, I a i n't afraid to go nowhere. I said get in the car and I'll go down there. I went down there an:i she hunted her husband. evera.l of them c an e, eight or ten foot of my car with t h eir clubs. And they was looki ng at me awful mean, but they never said nothing. And she talked to her husband and then she come back and got in the car and I too k her back over ther e to her brother's. And when I was a young man up there at Clinchfield, I was a man that everybody looked to for everything. I had to hunt the doctor for all the people. I had to dig graves for everybody, and I had to hunt preachers t o preach at funerals, and I had to, well, they just looked on me as a fre e riding horse. 0 o one n i ght, so me feller pecked on the door and I went to the doo r and he said Perry, my wife's having a baby m d I can 1 t get none of my uni on men to go a fter t h e doctor. aid, will you go? I said sure, I 'll go. ~ o I put on my clothes and went out there and got in the car. I had an old T- model Ford. He said, now are you afraid to go to the head man? He lived over there between the r e and Clinchfield. Said, are you afraid t o go to his house? I said not a bit in the world. owe went to his house andhe pecked on the door and his wife come to the door and said he was over at union headquarters on ~ orehead idge. That wa s a Negro secti on. He c ome back and said that man's over at the union headquarters and I guess you're afraid to go over there, ain't y ou? I said no, I a i n't a bit afraid. Said a re you su r e~ I said I 'm v e ry sure. So he g ot i n the car and we went over there to that union headquarters. That whole hilltop was covered up witq people. ind he went in the old bu i lding there. I t had be en an old store buildi ng. Found t h at man. And they had to get an order fr om the u ni on bef ore they could get a doctor. He went in there and got t hat order and brou ght it back and we went up to tov n to an old doctor. He's b e en dead a good many years, and he wa s an old country doctor. Name wa s Jonas. And we went to his house and call ed him out. He promis ed to come. But I went through them any time I took a noti on to. Part of the time I was mad e n ough to bitten through nails and part of the time I was a mused, I was tickled at them. ~hen you would go through the picket lines ? I went through the picket l i nes. Another thing I ' l l tell · you. They had t he roads blo c k ed. W ouldn't l e t anybody in. W ell, my �22. Q. A. Q. A. Q. brother come down through there and me and my wife and family was over at my daddy's on the other side of the mill • .And my brother asked me, s a id have the y se rched your car yet? I said no. He said, well, they will before you get home. He said t h ey searched my car, and we both had an old t ouring car with a cloth top. And of course, that finished making me mad. I didn't have too much farther to go . I told him, y ou get right behind me and I 'll show you how to go throu gh them. And my wife's brother had t ook two old F ord c a r horns and tore them up and put them together. Put it on my car and it made the awfulest racket you ever hea rd. So he got right behind me and I started. I had a 1 926 T-model Ford . And we crossed the railroad switch that goes down to Clinchfield. W ell, that crowd was all up there, men and women playing (inaudible) , hav l ng a bi g time. nd the farther I went, the mad d er I got. So I blowed that old horn and it went l i ke a railroad whistle. .And they all turned one another loose and just reached around and picked up them clubs. They h a d them setting aga i nst the bank and the y watched the road. And tha t's one time tha t o l d car run good. Just seemed like it wanted to run g ood. I poured the gas to it, and it was the wnong thi ng to do. And I went through tha t crowd. They just spread li k e water. I got to the foot of the hill and told my wife, said I 'm g o i ng to stop and go back the re. I might have hit somebody. I 'm sorry that I done that. She commenced to beg me to go on, s a id y ou'll just g et in a fight. Just go on, go on. So I went on home. I said, you reckon I hit anybody? He said, I don't know, but he said they was three and four double deep on the side just as I come through . Bu t he said that ro d was ope n, but they was all piled up on the side. (wife speak s) They j ust jumped out of the way. You brushed one man . (Hicks res umes) A few d a ys after tha t, I was off , going back. The y stopp ed a man , wouldn't let him g o in. I pu l led right up against him. So they told him he'd have to back out, and go back. Wouldn 't let h i m go in at all. And he started backing into me and I just blowed that old horn and held my ground. Some of them come back there and looked. Said, let him through , let him t h rough. I t's this craz·y man back here . He' 11 kill a bunch of us if we don 1 t let him t h rough. So they let him through, go on, but they followed h i m ove r there. F irst place he could t u rn around , t h ey made him turn around and go back (wife spea k s) They was afraid they was brirgtng i n new hands to the mills, that was wha t ••• Oh . New worke rs to repla ce the strikers? (Hi cks resumes) Yeah. ~ hat was what they was trying to sto p . ew hands coming in. (wife speak s) But they never did try to s top us no more . Why we lived on cotton mill hill a nd we had to go out sometime. (Hick s resumes) ow when the soldiers come, they sea rched my ca r every time I took it out. (inaudible) Even raised the back seat and raised t h e tr unk lid. Looked u nder the hood and ev r y t hing . Wha t we re t h ey looki ng for? They wa s looking for weap ons. Dynamite? Ye a h . And pistols and ev erythi n g . F irst morning I went in the mill after t h e soldiers come, the y stopped me abou t seve ral hundr ed yards from the mill a nd wanted to search me. An d I needed a poc ke t k nifle on my job, to cut roping. nd he searched me and found my p ocket knife . He said, now I 1 11 have to take that • I �23 . Q. A. . Q. • Q. said well , I don 't know h ow I'm going to do withou t my pocket knife . I said , no way I can get it in there? He s a id you might put it in y our shoe . So I just reached down and stuck it in my shoe . '.L ook it in there . But I left it in there . I wouldn ' t brin g it back out . They was afraid sorr:ebody would take a weapon i n there . (wife speaks) An d they ' d g e t to fighting (Hicks res um es) They sent us word o ne eveni ng from East Marion thEt the y was comi ng over there a nd going to run ev e rybody out of the place . Who was going to do that? That was the union at East arion . And they brought us the word . W ell, there wa s p lent y of broom handles in there . mi we had to make , call t h e m brush sticks . Take a bro om handle and whittle it off and cut notches in it, and make a brush out of that waste (inaudible) . To clean up under the machine ry with . And everybody went to work , some cut the brush off the handle . Some found a bro om handle . And the feller that had the little dog that carr ied the dynamite ba ck to the house , he bro u ght him in there •• g ot h i m a railroad tap off a joi n t on the railroad . He had it n there m.d he whittled down his broom handle and put that tap on the end of the broom handle . I watched him fix it . nd we wa s go n g to meet th em out at the h e ad of the stairs . I told h i m, I sai d when we go ou t there a n d me e t them people , I'm going ri ght behind y ou . He said why? I said , well , there won ' t be nobody left for me to hit after he gets through with that nut. nd they had the picket line all around our mill . 'l'he railroad switch was down t h rough there. W ell, a lot of them mean bo y s wou ld g e t nuts , a nd the re was always plenty of old wore out nuts off of the machi nery . They could get a poc k etful . They slip 1 up ther e and they'd throw them up at the windows . hey hurt several people that wa y . But that felle r brought h i m a nut off the railroa d . (wife speaks ) W s he aimi ng to throw it at s omebody? (Hicks resumes) Yeah~ And they'd pick up the nut wh en it c ome a nd they' d go to the off ice and report it . nd they c ru ld look at the nut and tell where it come from . W h a d an of f ice e in o ur own depar tment. One old mean boy n the r e , good old boy but devilish . And he went so mewhere and took a wrenc h and he took him a ••• got h i m a nut off ••• Come back in there a nd told me , said you come over here nd watch what I ' m going to do. And I went over there and of cou r s e he h i d there i n the window a nd they couldn't see . He throwed that old big railroa d nu t out there . He d idn't hit anybody, but come ri ght clo s e to . They run a nd rabb e d it up and look ed at it and we co uld see them . nd he said I 1 m wo nd e r i ng if they k now wha t wi ndow that cane out of. He got it off the railro a d . Let me try to get the time stra i ght in my mi nd . You c a me to the mills firs t in 191 9 ? I guess it wa s 1 1 8 • 1 91 8 . And t h en you a ll lived in the mi ll villag e? And then you went b a c k to M adison County? S ta;yed a year and then you come back? Mov ed back i nto the mill vil l age , and t h en so metime during the 20 1 s, y ou mo ved h er e ? �24 . A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • • • Q. Q. No . Not here . Dysartsville? I first went out on a farm over across the hill, here adjoining Lake James . I rented it from an old feller . That wa s old man Condrey . When wa s that? What year were you out there? Now that was in the 20 1 s . (wife speaks) No, that was in the 30's . (Hicks resumes) Was it? (wife) Yeah, because Lois was a little baby . Shew as born in 1930 and we moved between then and 1932 . (Hicks) ow, about the time she was a year old. (wife) It was ab out inaudible) when we moved out on the farm . ~ o , did you all then live in the mill villag e all thew ay during the 20 1 s up to the 30's? Up to th e 30's when we went out there . No , I bought a little farm down here at Nebo and we quit the mill and went out ·and stayed about a year . And ••• (wife sp e aks)But you worle d 'in the mill. (Hicks resumes) But I worked in the mi l l . went back and forth . And then you finally left the mills in about 31 or 32? To go ••• Yeah . We staye d ou t five years . And t h en you come back to Drexel? nd then I went back to Clinchfield . nd I worked several years t he n and then I bought that farm in Dysartsville . (wife) Th~ was in 1939 . (Hicks r e sumes) I t was in the early 40's . It was just abou t the time that W orld War One was breaking out . They got three of our oldest boys. In W orld W ar umber Two . How many children did you all h ave? Ha d six. Six living and two dead . Got four boys and two girls . You said earlier that you had brown lung . When did you discover that you h ad that? Well, I don't know that was what it was . I knowed it was something bad wrong . Th e last wor k I done in the cotton mills . That would have been in 1939? Yeah . About 1939 . And I got a l lergic to everything . Hay fever • Breathin§ got bad. hen I went out on the farm and stayed six years . old the farm . That was wh en I was talk i ng a b out wanting to work out ::,ocial Security . To have something to depend on when I retired . nd you had to have worked for a company at that time to carry it ..," And I decided to go back • •• instead of g o i ng to the cott m mills. They done everything they could to get me to come back th re . And I went to Drexel Furniture ~ompany . W ent to work out on the yard . Handling lumber . And my emphysema g ot worse, and worse. I got to where I wasn't able to run the job . Somebody said (inaudible) well satisfied with my work . When did you 1 k now you h a d b r own lung ? W ell, it ain t b e en too many years ago that I knowed for sure that's what it was (wife speaks) We l l, the doctor told y ou that was emphysema . He n ever did tell you it was brown lung . (Hicks resumes) No. lhey cal l it brown lung now . And , W3ll I wrote t o a doctor that wrote this in the Asheville ~itizen . l old him h ow I had work ed . And he wrote me back a letter and told me I had emphysema . But the doctors around Mari o n here they ne~er cou ld discov e r. (wife spea ks) They called it athsma . Just athsma? �A. And after I went to wor k up there in the lumber yard, I told my overseer that it was getting too hard for me. I'd have to give it up. He as k ed me what I wanted to do and I told him I thought I wanted to nightwatch. I'd worked with him a year and a half. So they had no trouble getting a nightwatchman job. They was having trouble keeping nightwatchmen. I t was an awful big old p lant and it was awful spooky . And ther e wa s a lot of people ( inaudible). So they put me right on. I nightwatched for two years there. .rind in the time I was there, we built this lit t le old house h ere. Our oldest son's wife while he wa s i n the Army, bought two a c res a nd a half of land here. nd he said he'd give •.• both of them said they'd g ive e n ough l a nd to build us a house on. W ell, I didn't much like the idea of that, but I went ahead and built this little old house. Cheap lit t le old house. nd we been here about 30 years. nd I nightwatched two years and a half and our children all go t away from home. There was nobody to stay with my wife. She was afraid to stay by herself at night. I went and told my bossman that I want ed on the days hift, something. I didn't k now nothing ab out the furniture factory, that is the inside of it. Well, he went and got me a job in the machin e room. Rough (inaudible) where all the lumber all started. But it was worse than the cot t on mill. F or dust. There wa s dust ev e rywhere. The ve ry worst thing that I cou ld have done. But I stuck it out there until I was , got old enoug h to retire. They cut the a ge down fro m 65 to 62. And on the l''ourth of July, I was 62 in April. Been 63 the next year. W ell, I went to the Social Security man here i n a rion and signed up to retire. He fir s t told me, said you can't retire. Yet. Said it;s all right to sign up, but y ou can't retire. I said,~11, didn t you know they'd cut the a g e down to 62? He said no, I didn't know it. W ell, I said, I been watching th a t closer than you h av e. So he signed me up and I went back on M onday morning after the ~ ourt h of J u ly, went right up to my boss and tol d him, I said I'm just work i n g a ten day notice and I'm quitting. He said what's themat t er? I s aid I' m r e tiring. So he come around about an hour or two and he said, P e rry y ou can't draw a thing this year. You've done made o ver $ 1200, and that's all you're a llowed to make. Wi th them. He said you c a n't draw a cent until next year. He said l e t's throw that notice away. I said, well, just throw it a way. He said, well, I never did turn it in nohow. So I worked the rest of that year and retired. I like to never made it. I had, tl!mt dust gi v e me hay fever and agitated this collapsed lung. And so at the end of the year, when they c ome out for Christmas, he come around to me and said now P erry you're just go i ng to make $ 1200 next year, ain't you? I said I ain't going to make nothing next year. W hen I go out of here a t Christmas, I 'm not comi ng back. Oh, he said, co me back and work out $ 1200. I said no, I'm done. He s a id,~11, come back and wor k unt i l yo ur birthday . I said no, I 'm done. 'o I ~ome out the Christmas vacation and although I was supposed to go back and work a few days between vacatio n and the first of the year. But I took pneumonia fe v er. I saw a doctor and wasn't able to go back. But quick as I was able to go, I went and signed out for release and got what was coming to me. nd they beg ed me there yet to come back and visit, but I ain't n e ver g oing back. End of Tape #2, sid e 2 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Howie, Sam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hicks, Perry Interview Date 12/31/1975 Location The location of the interview. Marion, NC Number of pages 25 pages Date digitized 9/19/2014 File size 24.4MB Checksum alphanumeric code b6affd7cf20c7fcf3df5c2f7a0b30fa4 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape338_PerryHicks_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Perry Hicks [Feburary 9, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howie, Sam Hicks, Perry Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--20th century Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--19th century Hicks, Perry Description An account of the resource Perry Hicks talks about working in a cotton mill in western North Carolina in the early twentieth century. He was born in 1899 and began working at a young age because he dropped out of the six-month school he was attending. He explains the influence the unions had: "naturally, I have, all my life, been opposed to the unions." He says that the unions caused inflation, so the poor people didn't come out ahead anyway. He eventually left the cotton mill because he couldn't support his family. Boise Hardwood Lumber Company Burke County N.C. Clinchfield Clinchfield company cotton mill Drexel Furniture Company Duke Power Company Dyartsville East Marion Mill farming flu epidemic Great Depression Haywood County N.C. Madison County N.C. Marion mill house mill work Perry Hicks Pigeon River protests railroad Rutherfod County sawmill segregation voting World War I https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2e109166b51ca3a355ab1722712bc90d.pdf fef526d36099634e28ce11fa81579a98 PDF Text Text #336 Dewey E. Helms This is an Appalachian Oral History Project interview with Marion, North Carolina who is retired textile mill worker. Dew~y Helms of He was inter- viewed of January 10 , 1976 by Sam Howie . Q: First of all , where were you born? A: I was born in Mc Dowell County. Q: Do you remember the township? A: I was born in Marion. Q: Marion? A: Yep . Q: Was it outside the town or within the town limits? A: It was about a mile out of town . Q: What year were you born? A: 1903. Q: What did your parents do for a living? A: They farmed part of the time and my father was a carpenter. the carpenter trade for a while . He worked at .. �2 Q: Was it a fairly large family that you were born into? A: There were eight of us: Q: When you and your brothers turned eighteen or twenty, what did most of you do? four byys and four girls. Were most of you staying on your fattl.er's place or did you go out to work-to what they called public work? A: We stayed at home most of the time until we finished school and worked kind of part-time. I worked between school terms in a furniture factory and my older brother sold insurance. I believe he was in Greenwood, South Carolina and the girls stayed home until they were married. Q: Which furniture factory? Was it · one in Marion? A: Yes, Drexel Furniture Factory. Q: Do you remember when it opened? A: No. I don't re.member. Q: I remember you told me that you first went to work in the mills in 1923. A: Yes, right, July l, 1923. Q: Was that for Clinchfield? A: Yes, it was. Q: You were saying earlier that one of the Clinchfield mills opened in 1916. A: There were two mills, the north and south plant. . The south plant I''m absolutely certain opened in 1916 and I believe the other one opened in 1911. �3 I'm not sure. Q: Which one did you go to work in? A: I went to work in, ' I reckon, what they call the north plant. The older mill. Q: Do you remember when East Marion might have been opened:? A: 1905, I think. Q: You don't recall when Cross mills first opened do you? A: No, but it was later, probably around 1917 or 18. Q: Did you do any other kind of work besides furniture before you went into It started in 1905. the mills in 192 3.? A: No . Nothing but farm and cut wood. Q: So you knew how to farm. A: Yes, pretty much Q: What kind of farming did your father do? A: No, mostly corn. vegetables. Q: Did he raise beef or what? Well, that was our biggest crop ... corn and just We pl!actically lived on what we made. Was it possible to have some income from farming in those years? �4 A: No, very little income. Q: Can you ~ay why it was you decided to go to work in the mill? Wli:y you were first attracted to the mill, to working in the mill? A: Well, like I told you, I worked between school terms and I tried the furniture factories. I only made ll¢ an hour at the furniture factories. were paying more at the mills and I decided to try the mills. work . 11re one summer, but I wound up staying. and we were running five days and a half. til eleven o'clock on Saturday. eleven hours a day. I intended to I went in the weave room At least we run, the mill run un- About sixty hours a week. We worked about We went to work at six o'clock in the morning and worked until six o'clock in the evening. clock in the morning. They We were supposed to go to work at seven o' We were supposed to have a ten hour work day in North Carolina, but it was never enforced. Q: You mean there was a ten hour work law? A: Supposedly, yes, supposed to be. It was enforced in South Carolina, but it was never enforced in North Carolina. We went to work at six o'clock in the morning and worked until six in the evening. Saturday morning and worked until eleven. We went towork at six o'clock on I went to work for thirteen dollars and eighty five cents a week. Q: What was that an hour? A: (Laugh) I don't know. Q: Okay. A: Supposed to have been fifty five hours, but we were working sixty hours. �5 Q: Did you get paid for the extra five hours? A: No. Q: The company said, "You want the job, you've got to work. A: That's right. 11 If you didn't want it., there were a lot of people waiting for it . Q: There were a lot of people that wanted to work in the mills? A: Yes . Q: But then generally you went to the mills because it was possible to make a little bit more money than in the furniture factory. A: Yes , that's right. Q: Other than the cotton mills and the furniture industry, was there any other kind of work available in the Marion or Mc Dowel 1 County area? A: No, the only thing was the railr oad. They had section crews on the rail- road, but you couldn't ever get a job on the railroad. Q: There just weren't any jobs there? A: None. Q: Did they pay well, the railroads? A: No , not too well. I've forgotten that. I knew my father worked for South- ern Railroad Company for a while for a dollar and tea cents a day, but I guess that was before I was old enough to go to work. Q: Were you still going to school then when you started working at Clinch- field the first time ? Ai Yes. Q: And you just stayed on? �6 A: Yes, I just stayed on. Q: You said when you went to work for them, you went to .work in weaving. A: Yes. Q: Clirichfield, as I understand it from Mr. Hicks, was just turning out woven cloth. A: It wasn't doing any printing or dying. Just what they call "printll cloth. 64, 64--64, 60 and 80 64, 50 a filling. Q: Is that coarse cloth? A: No, it's pretty fine. Q: What did you do in weaving? A: I started in the loom plant, just cleaning looms with a brush and that was It's thin cloth. What was your job? before they used air jets, or compressors. I cleaned looms with a brush un- til I learned a little bit about weaving and I started weaving on sixteen looms. We had to learn on our own. Tpey didn 't pay for no learning. Q: You mean they wouldn't t r ain you? A: No. There was no training program at all. And if you tried hard you could, after a year or so, you could start weaving on the looms. more and a good weaver made right much more. They even paid a little I started work in 1923. started fixing looms in 1925 for nineteen dollars and sixty cents a week. friends easy and the fellows helped me out a whole lot. 1925, and I fixed looms until about 1945, I guess. Q: Fixing what does that involve? A: Just keeping a loom running making good cloth. I I made I started fixing in �7 Q: Just repairing it and keeping it going? A: Yes. Q: Is it as good a job as weaving or better? When you were weaving were you on piece work or was it possible to be on piece work in weaving? A: They figured by cut. what they called a cut. hundred and ten yards. TB.ere was a cut mark on every They put a blue mark on it with a slash around it . Q: Yes. A: A blue mark at the cut for a cut mark and the weaver had to keep the looms running, fill the batteries. and take off the cloth. on 'til 1936. That probably went Then they went on what we called a "stretch-out system" and they give the weaver more looms. where we were running twenty-four looms. They gave them fortyeight. doff the cloth. They had battery fillers on them and somebody to They took the battery filling and cloth doffing off the weaver and gave them more looms. It was called the "stretch-out system. " Q: More production ... in the same period of time. A: Finally they went on and kept adding help and they got up to seventy two looms in the weaving. Q: You had to really work fast on that didn't you? fixer . . . and you stayed a fixer until sometime in the A: But by 1925, you were a 1 40' s? Around sometime in the !40's. I went over in supervision. I stayed a supervisor until I retired. Q: All the time with Clinchfield? A: No. I worked at Clinchfield until 1940. Q: And you were a supervisor at East Marion? A: Yes. April of 1942 I went to East Marion. East Marion was installing new machinery and I was interested in �8 learning more about it. I went over there for that purpose, to learn something about the machinery. A: Yeah. I was married Ln 1924 and I went to house keeping in the mill village . Q: Was it a company policy that you had to live in the village to work for Clinch- field? A: No . there was no living requirement . If you wanted to live in a three room house that was forty fi ve cents a week and if you rented four rooms, about as much a s they had, they had a few six room houses. then that included your lights. Four room house was sixty cents a week and Sometimes I guess back in the '20's they wired the village . Q: Would that have been cheaper rent than renting somewhere else in the town? A: Yes, it would. Q: During that early period did the mills operate a company store for the workers? A: Yes. Q: Was it just a general store? Did it have grocer ces in it and clothing and just about anything you need? A: General store, yes, hardware, clothing. groceries. Q: Were the prices cheaper in the company store than anywhere else in town? A : No, they were not. �9 Q: They were the s : me or higher? A: They were about the same. What you could do was if you bought from the com- pany store, they had a checking list system . You could go to the office and get a check on your tlme and pay for your groceries or whatever you bought. It came out on a ticket on Saturday at the end. Q: They gave you credit in other words. A: Yes , they just wrote you what we c a lled a (speaking to someone else) a ticket wasn't it? (othe r person answering) : Some kind of ticket you got and you go down to the office window and you tell them how much you w a nted and they wrote it. You gave it to the store manager for what you bought and then at the end of the week it would come out of your check. Lots of people ne ver did draw a dime in pay. They never did draw any money. (other person-NOTE: other person was Mr. Helms' wiie) They had some kind of old books too, that people would ... A: Yeah, they had coupon books from a dollar to five dollars and you could get a dollar coupon book if you wanted to buy a small amount at a time sometimes ten or fifteen cents worth of something. dollars. They'd tear out a coupon and that went up to five Five dollars would just about pay for a week's groceries. Mrs. Helms: Some of the men made money with books. You could get them for a dollar cheaper than you could go to the office and get them yourself too, couldn't you? �10 A: Yeah. A lot of people sold their books. They'd get a five dolar coupon book and sell it for three dollars and se venty-five cents. You could, if you had the money to buy the books, you were lucky and you could get flve dollars worth of groceries for three seventy.five. Q: Well, waht about the ones that were selling them? A: They were losing , yeah. They were losing. Thet were really cutting their wages. Q: Wonder why they wanted to do that? A: Well, money was scarce and if you had to go the the doctor you had to pay them a dollar. So they sold their two dollar book to get a dollar and a half for it . Then they could pay their doctor bill and hospital or drug store bill with a dollar and a half. Q: So, they did it just to get. some ready cash. A: Yeah, just in an occassional emergency. Q: During ~he '20's , you said there were a bt of people trying to get work in the mills and there weren't enough jobs for everybody. the mills during the '20's? Was it possible to move up in That is, you became a fixer ... A: Yes •.. depending altogether on how hard you tried. Q: But could it be done.? A: Yes . Q: You could improve your situation. During the '2 0 ' s, did wages increase or sta y �11 the same or for the same job? A: They ne ver increased. We might have gotten a few small raised. but they would decrease too, in the '20's and on up into the '30's. In the summertive usually from probably June until September they ran three or four days a week, curtailed, and that happened for several years in succession. The market was bad. They couldn 't sell the cloth so they curtailed and it was awfully hard to make a living. Q: That was during the Depressian? A: Yeah. Q: Wa ges might have stayed the same, but there just wasn't enough work during the week, enough hours. A: Wages didn't vary much from 1920 'til I guess it was 1936 when we went on eight hour : Q: Yes. Mrs. Helms: That's when Social Security started wasn't it? A: Yeah when President Roosevelt came in. Q: Compared to other jobs a man might have had ~n the area during the '20' s and say '30 's too, was the work in the mills generally hard? Was it say as hard as farming or working in furniture or something liRe that? A: Well, it was steady work. did. You had to keep busy and especially in the weave room YOl The lunch period, I belie ve, and that's the only time you ever got and slack. �12 Of course, the weavers did all they could to keep their production up and make as much money as they could and the supervisors saw that our hands st,5lyed busy. The first two years that I worked, I worked for them by the hour. Q: That's when you were cleaning? A: Yeah, cleaning, taking our quills , and sweeping and I had enough spare time to learn a little bit about weaving. They had two 16 loom sets in the mill and the rest of them were 20-24 and 26 . and I got to where I could run a sixteen mill set. didn't pay much more than cleaning, about the same. I felt like I was getting somewhere. during that time. It Anyway, I was progressing. Then I went on the smash job, I learned smash Do you know anything about the mills? What the smash job is? Q: I know what weaving and fixing, but I don't know what a smash job is. A: Well, sometimes a loom would make a break, break all the warp our for a space maybe six or eight inches wide and that was the smash hand's job to draw all of the threads in and get the looms ready for the fixer to start up Q: Yes. A: I learned to do that and then I learned to fix a '.little. Then finally I became a reg- ul2.r fixer sometime in 1925 probably in the later part of 1925. Q: How did that work? You were working in a smash job or cleaaing or something and you watched a fixer do his job and you figured out what it was he did . Could you go to the supervisor when a fixer job came open and say, "Well, · I know how to do that, could you consider me for that?" Is that how you got that job? �13 A: Yeah. Q: You just had to teach yourself and then ... A: Yes, what they'd do, some of the fixers would help you out for a while, explain things to you and tell you how .it worked. job, you went and asked for it, applied for it. When you felt like you could run a Sometimes they'd laugh at you (laughter) 2.nd sometimes they'd consider you. Q: Yeah. Who were the supervisors? Were they people from around here or ... A: My first supervisor was originally from Madison County, but he l ived in the village at that time. Q: Yes. A: George Reynolds. Now he's been a minister of the Gospel for several years. He's eighty-two or three years old and he's still preaching. Q: Yes. A: And lives in Black Mountain. Q: Were the majority of the supervisors, when you first went to work, from outside the county? You said he was from Madison County. A: He was raised in Madison County. Most of the people that worked in the mill that I knew came from Madison, Heywood, Yancey, and Mitchell Counties. Q: Yeah, that's what Mr. Hicks said. That was in the early and middle '20's. �14 In the 1 30 1 s. were the people still coming from Madison and Yancey and Mitchell Counties? A: They certainly we r e , yes s ir. Q: But were there some from McDowell County that were working in the mills? A: Yes, a lot of people from McDowell County were working. whole families. They would hire Suppose a man came along and had flve ar six or seven childres were old enough to work . They would hire the whole family and give him a house to live in and I think that they figured they would keep that family. I mean, they'd be satisfied if they hired that family and stayed there, make permanent bands . Q : They wouldn't be moving on. They woul dn ' t be as ready to move on as say a single man? A: Yeah, right. But there wasn 't much place to go. and people were continually changing. There just wasn't any work I don't know why, but the p eople were continually coming from Spartanburg, Gaffney, and e ven Greenville, a nd Rutherford County coming here for jobs , loom fixing and all that and it didn't pay any more . I don't know if they were discharged or why they moved ..• END OF SIDE 1 TAPE #1 SIDE #2 Q : Was it your impression that the mills in Mari on pa ..d as much and had as good working hou r s and conditions as say in Greenville or Spartanburg .. . A: Yeah, about the same . About the same . Q: So people we r en't coming here for any real reason then . They were just sort �15 of drifting . A : Yeah. Q: Perry Hicks said that a lot of the supervisors and he went to work in 1919 . He said a laot of his supervisors in the early '2 's were from South Carolina, because the y had more mills down there and peopl could pick up skills and know more ab':out it than they could up here. A: Those men weat on to make overseers. visors out of them. If a man qualified they'd make supe r - I think it depended a whole lot on whether the overseer liked you or not more than it d i d on your ability. Nov. that was always the way it looked to me . Q: That was in the '20's. A: Yeah. Q: Did it seem to you that there were a lot of people who would switch from one mill to the other? Start at East Marion and come to tone of the Clinchfield mills then go to Cross mills . A: Yes, they di d 'Switch alot. I never did understand why, whether or not they were discharged from their jobs or whether they decided to move , just got mad about something and decided t o move. I don't know what . Q : Was there that much difference between wbrking at one and working at the othe r ? A: C r oss mill was a spinning mill , they didn 't do any weaving. Clinchfield and �16 East Ma r ion both were weaving mills. C r oss mill. For some reason people liked to wor k at They we r e treated a little better, I think. Q: Yes. A: It was indi vidually owned and they just treated t heir help a little better and they paid a little, a few cents more at that time. Howe ver, the other mills finally got to paying more than Cross Mill. Q: Yes. D id C r os s have a village, a mill village? A: Yes, they had one. They st ill own thei r village. Cross mill still owns and rents its houses. Q: But East Marion and Clinchfield sold their houses to the workers~ A: Yes. Q: Who owns C r oss now? A: Eugene Cross, the Cross family. Q: Yeah. A: I imagine they have a lot of stock holders, but ..•... Q: Other than those three, Cross, Clinchfield, and E a st M a rion, there wasn't any othe r mill in McDowell County in say 1925, or later that you recall? A: No, the r e were no other mills in McDowell County. Thread was the next one. I believe, American �11 .. Mrs~ Helms: No , it came years later. A: I imagine it was 1950 when American Thread came. Q: Do you recall who the owners of Clinchfield and East Marion were in the '20 's? Do you recall their names, who they were or ... mainly where they were from? Were they from around here? A: Now , I think that the same people built both mills. and later on it was mostly locally owned. East Marion started up They buily Clinchfield up and I did know the history pretty well, but I'm pretty sure .... Mrs . Helms: A: "Baldwins, Carol Baldwin from Baltimore. He owned the controlling interest in East Marion and ... Q: Does the name Ha.rt ring a bell with Clinchfield? A: Sir? Q: Hart. Do you recall a man named Hart in connection with Clinchfield? A: Yeah. Anyway, there was some disagreement somehow and one faction tooK. over East Marion and the other one, Clinchfield. Q: Yes . A: But, I've forgotten just how it was. �18 Q: But the same people were invoLred when both mills first started up. You don't recall what it is they had a dispute o ver do you? I don't know of .... A: No, sir, I don't. I, it hasn't been too long. Not too many years since I read the history of that , but I've forgotten. Q: Where did you read that? Was it printed up somewhere? A: It was printed material, but I've forgotten what it ..... Q: Wasn't in the newspaper was it? O r was it? A: I don't remember, I'm not sure. It might not have been any special edition of the newspaper. I don't know. Q: Was it your feeling that Clinchfield and East Mari n were fairly profltable for the owners? A: Yes. I think they were fairly profitable. They made some money, because when they finally decided to remodel, install the new machinery they had the money t o do it with. I know that, because I was more or less on the inside when thet started to remodel and install new machinery. it. Why, I know t hat they had the money to pay for The mills in the early '20's and 1 30's were dirty and hot. The weaver's room was awful hot and they didn't have any ventilation, except what they called a skylight. They had a little window over the window that they pulled in and le~ a little air in, but they didn't allow you much ventilation and your work wouldn't run good. running around a hundred degrees, ninety five. unbearable. It was In the summertive it was almost �19 I think that the weave r ooms were the hottest place there was. In the latter years I found out that it was more just an idea than anything else, because we finally went to running the we ave room down t o seventy degrees during summer. Q: You mean there wasn't any point in keeping them hot? A: No. We got air con ditioning to keep it down I believe that was the supervisor or the plant m a nager, I don't know. humidifying system. But they were dirty The floors stayed wet in places. a rm or leg, th t wa s your experience at work . ensation, workman ' s compensation. Q: If Wfl. nd we had a old model If you fell and broke your They didn't have any kind of comp- got hurt, we just got hurt. Lost your pay? A: Lost pay, yes . Paid our doctor bills. Q: Was th ere a c ompany doctor or company nurse? A: No, there wasn't any company doctor. Q: Any kind of first aid on hand? A: No, none. I fixed looms for years and had a little bottle of iodine in my tool box and we didn't have first - aid. W.e.' d u s e something to tie our finger up with, if we got cut or hurt or something. Q: Just go on and work? A: But we did it ourselves. There wasn't any use to go to nobody and say anything �20 about it. Q: Why did they feel they needed to keep it wet or humi§l? A: It takes a certain amount of humidity to keep that yarn running. through the slicers and the side. It's run Start to put on the yarn and it's brittle. of course , You have to have a certain amount of humidity to make the work run, but the humidifiers were bad to get out of order and when they did , they just wet the floor, you know. Some of the warps got too wet to run, but all that was changed ofter the remodeling and got air conditiaming and a diffe r ent: } 1umdiifying system. Q : You were saying earlier it was your impres s ion that most of the people who c ame to work in the mills during the early '20 1 s , middle '20' s . were not from this c ounty. They were from farther west like Yancey, Mitchell, or Madison County. A : You see, I lived in the village and I was acquainted with almost everybody. Most of them came from Madison and Heywood. Q: They were farm families? A : Yes. Q: Were they giPen, because they were fam ilies, were they given hiring preference over individuals, single people . You said the mills would more readily hire a family than they would an indiv idual or they felt that he would make a better employee or worker. Or were the people that came in from s a y Madison, were they goven prefer- ence over local people? A : No, they were not . �21 Q: Not really? A: Sometimes a whole family m.ight have been giving a little preference to the houses , I cb n 't know . Q : Because they wouldn't have any house at all? A: But, all you got, all anybody g(j)j; then, they worked fo r it . promoted to a better job, p u had to work for it. Of course, you got You had to convince the man that you were capable of doing it . Q: Do you have any idea why f>eople came in such numbers from farther west to work in the mills? We r e they just tired of farming or couldn't make a living on farming or what was it? A: I just have an idea that it was harder to make a living. Q: Yeah . Did any of them tell you that, say that , was why they came to the mills? A: Not tha t I recall. But you take a man , say he had six children. He and six children went to work and if they m ake twelve dollars a week that made eighty fou r dollars a week . Well, he'd have probably kept ten dollars out of each child's pay. There was a lot that went back and bought farms depending on how large the family was. Q : You mean they would work a couple of years and save up and go back to say Heywood County and buy a farm? A: Yeah . They'd work several years like that . took most of the money that the children made. I'm pretty sure that the parents �22 As long as they stayed at home, the parents just about got all t hat they made. (cough) So, a man with a large family pretty well mopped up. Q: Yeah. How old did a child have to be before they would let it work in the mill then? A: I believe fourteen. Q: Yes. A: TQ.ey did work just small children, but I believe they made the General Assembly pass a bill. They had to be fourteen years old . Q: Yes. A: They had to go get a work card then (c ough) from the ing before the company would hire them. ~hool that they were attend- I think it was fourteen. Q : That would mean tmt couldn't go to school if they were hired? There was no night work, was there? A: No. Q: So, that meant if they went to work at fourteen , they weren't in school? A: They didn't go to school. But they had to get a permit of some kind before they could work . Q: Were there about as many women working at Clinchfield as men? A: Yeah , I think there were . �23 A: See, most of the spinning rooms, most of the spinners or all the spinners were women. A lot of the women worked in the card room . Probably more men worked in the card room than women but in the weave room, I'd say it was pretty well divid ed About as many women as there were men. Q: Did they pay them different? A: No . Q : There was no difference in pay? A: A woman can actually be as good a weaver as a amn can. I've worked with women that was awfully good weavers . Q: What did they have the children doing, say those fourteen to eighteen? A: Learning, mostly to weave . My wife said she went to work at Clinchfield for twenty five cents a week for a size and she, I think, got to where she could run two sizes and made fifty cents a week . I'm no , I'm not certain . Q : Who did just general clean-up work azround the mill? A : Do you mean inside? Q : Yes . A : \Vell,, they had room cleaners and sweepers and they l=lad probably two c olored people that did the mopping that mopped the floors once a week . They didn't get around to it often, because it was a big plac e and I know there was some colored women �24 that used to mop at Clinchfield. Later on, it was only men that did the mopping . After they got an air compressor and what we called blow pipes, they blew all this lint and cotton off the looms and the sweeper swept it up and it was sold for somekind of waste. I don't know what they did ... Q: The lint was? A: Yes . Q: Perry Hicks said when he first came to the mills around 1920, that there was a lot of feeling in this county among people that they d idn't want to go to the mills to work. They'd rather farm or do something else. A: Yes , I was. Were you aware of any of that? People that worked in the mill were actually looked down on. (laugh) were called cotton mill trash. They Now that's a fact , I'm just telling you t he facts. They were actually looked down on by people. Q: In the town? A: Yeah , father was offered a job at Clinchfield and it was a good job , if he'd move into the village. He wouldn't do it. That was before any of us ever went to work. They felt like the people that lived in the village was nothing. Now that's a fact. Q: Why did people feel that way? Was it because they were from outside, they'd come in from other counties or ... A: I really don't know, I must admit. I' ve had friends down through life that was the best people you could ever come by. the mills. They lived in mill villages and worked in �25 Q: When a mill worker went into the town to the store to buy something, they wouldn't refuse to take his mmey? A : No, they wouldn't. (laugh) But you had to have some kind of somebody to recommend you before you got any c redit and if nobody didn 't know you, nobody would give you credit. So, I think it was one reason that so many people c r edited at the company store, because the few grocery stores that were around refused them credit from one week to the next . Q: Yes. What else did the companies do for the workers? with a village, housing, and the company store . at all? They provided them Did they do anything else for them Like . were there mill schools for the children? A: Yeah , they built a school house over there in the village and the company did that on their own I'm su r e . Now, when this building come through the mill I was going to school in a little two-room school house about two mlles over there and it was a ctually closer to Clinchfield mill than it was to our home . These kids that came from the mill village just over-crowded the school for a year or three years until they got a school of their own funds . Q: Did they also hire the teachers or were they... A: No, I guess, they were hired by the state . was put up by the c ompany and they owned it. I'm almost c ertain that the building After they built modern schools at both villages, the company made rooming houses, apartment houses, out of the old ones. Q: Did the company e er build churches ? �26 A: No. Q: Did the mill workers tend to go to one chuch? A: The first church that was built was Clinchfield Methodist Church. Marion Methodist Church was the first one built. Church. Probably East Then they built Clinchfield Methodist Of course , these people did it, and then later on they built the Baptist Church over there and one at East Marion and then several years later they had a Presbyterian Church. owned. N o w it's in the village over there, but it was ne ver company They probably donated the lot to build it on and they would donate the lot or the property for the church to build on. Not that was both places because those churches are on company owned property or what was company owned property. Now I'm sure they donated it. Q: Do you recall any other services, or whate ver, that the company did for the workers? You said there weren't doctors to provide midical ser vice. A: No , we didn't have any doctors or nu r ses. a house and we did't pay any powe r bills. The only thing that they provided was They didn't ha ve anything, but lights and they didn't allow hot plates or no kind of electric appliances, but the power didn't cost you anything. You paid fifteen cents a room for a house a week. Q: F or a week? A: Yeah. They dept the streets up to where you could drive a wagon over them. There were very few cars back then, you know furnaces down at the mill to put on the roads . and they used the cinders from the T hey had a well with a pump for about every four houses, I belie"e, something like that. Probably two on each side of the �27 street used the same pump. Q: Yes . A: Hand pump. Q: So there wasn't running water in the house? A: No. , Q: You pumped it and brought it in . Would they allow you to set you a garden out? A: Yes. Q: In the village? A: Uh. There was a garden spot for about every house. Q: How big were the lost for each house? Was it maybe about a half acre, as much as they ... A: No , they were not. In some of the houses, you know, on the back streets where the houses were built, they were built in a line down and on that ground you could go back as far as you wanted to normally. They owned the land, but people that l ived say fac- ing you on the other side of the street, between two streets had a very small lot . Q: Most people did try to garden though didn't they? A: Yes they did. END OF TAPE #1 SIDE #2 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Howie, Sam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Helms, Dewey E. Interview Date 1/10/1976 Location The location of the interview. Marion, NC Number of pages 27 pages Date digitized 9/18/2014 File size 12.6MB Checksum alphanumeric code a27303eca732de128997d62c1ba80121 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape336_DeweyEHelms_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dewey E. Helms [January 10, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howie, Sam Helms, Dewey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource McDowell County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--McDowell County--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--McDowell County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Helms, Dewey Description An account of the resource Dewey Helms, born in 1903, talks about working in McDowell County, North Carolina, in the early twentieth century. He came from a family of farmers and carpenters, and when he was old enough he began working in the furniture factory for eleven cents an hour between school terms. In 1923 he began working at the mill because the pay was better. He said the only other job you could get besides furniture and mill was the railroad, which didn't pay very well either. He eventually began weaving and repairing looms as a career. American Thread Clinchfield Clinchfield Methodist Church Clinchfield mills Cross mills Dewey E Helms Dewey Helms Drexel Furniture Factory East Marion Methodist Church East Marion Mill general stores Greenwod loom plant Marion McDowell County N.C. mill community mill village North Carolina railroad South Carolina Southern Railroad Company weaving weaving mills https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/80c6e96d868d6434c97a40f9fdd09bb7.pdf 6dba4c07388efb0ee777cee6ec3e21a4 PDF Text Text MR . & MRS • ALLEN TOWNSEND (Note. Q: Here the answere are from Mrs. Townsend) What do you first r emember about the Depression? How did you lmow it had starte ? A: Well, food always- got so high . It looked like you didn ' t have enough money to go cwound, I guess , and you just got the notions of things like that . Q. Were you not liVli:ng somewhere w here you could make your own food? Did you have to but it . ? Ai It's been for a few years that now at first we raised our own food and , you . know, we had our own chickens and raised our own meat like that , but then we jus t couldn 1 t do that so we 1 d just have to have money to buy it . to work . I ' ve worked myself to death . Then Allen got unable You know, with young ' uns you just can ' t get out to do. Q: Was there anything besides the high prices that you knew that the Depression was starting? A: Well, I re ot . It was just everything, you lmow , seemed different and a shortage of everything . Q: What were sane of the things that you, that were hard to get, find , or buy? A: Well , I just don •t lmow. Se emed like that we didn 1 t have much of anything or couldn ' t get much of anything or something . Back then there just wasn ' t much work for anybody to do and we lived in Ashe County at that time . awfully sick just coul 1 t d she had double pneumonia . .. d1y g t to the doctor . My mother was She was going to die and , you lmow, At that time it was hard . daddy worked , on a school .gym at Fleet wood and he had to walk . He worked , It ' s four miles �2 there and our miles back . o ' clock in the mornin ~o That's ei t Ue get there in time . got back and he was always so give out . a and he had to leave at four It was alw after dark when he We young ' µns woul ork in the crops So , we cut wood ta make hea:b around there at hane and we had to cut firewood o and bad to carry our own water, for a right smart ways . They couldn ' t hardly make enough to buy soap and Mama would make ho.memade soap ; make it in a big kettle to wash our clothes with . Q: What kind of crops did you raise? A: W ell, we raised about everything that they could raise . We raised potatoes , corn, cabbage, and we'd make corn bread out of the corn that we raised and we ' d make what you call himiney out of it and then we canned a lot of stuff . we dried apples . Then I can remember Mama drying a pumpkin, cutting it in rings and hanging it on sticks over the fireplace to dry. Q: What did she do with them . A: Take it and cook it . Make pumpkin pies for us to eat and dry apples and make dried apple pies . Q. So , did you have enough to eat then at this t A: W ell, we had plenty to eat, I reckon, and the way we managed it , you know, 'l had to do the same thing . Q. Did you have to buy anything? Was there anything that you had to buy'l Well, there were a lot of people that raised wheat that made their own flour , but we ddidn ' t raise any wheat, so we had to buy our own flour , you know, and sugar . The salt and stuff, fix something to eat and they used to be something like chicory that people would raise to be a plant . It would grow in great long roots �3 and they called it chicory and people would dry that and grind i t up and make coffee, chicory coffee . They call it coffee, but it really wasn ' t . They ' d take it and percolate, or boil it in a pot like they did all their c offee . Bout everybody in our neighborhood would raise that and make their own coffee . There would be a lot of young people now that never heard tell of that . They wouldn ' t know what I 1d be talking about and you might not . Q: No , I never heard of it . fas the flour and the sugar and all that hard to find during the Depression? A: Yes , it was . Q: Where did you get the money or how dfri you get it? A: Well, a lot of times we gathered herbs . How did you buy it? Dried herbs like cherry bark and we 1d pull big wood leaves and skin bi g ood bar • thing else to do he would go out in t. woods and mountains , you know, and cut When Daddy couldn ' t get any- the cherry poles and those big wood poles and the closes t one would bring them home and he ' d chop them up into firewood lengths and we ' d burn them , skin them in the house of the night . dry that . Then burn the wood part of the day and you ' d have to Some times it would take about a week, you know, to dry the bark and the leave • Q. What did urou do with it? A: There was a lot of sang in the mountains . called it . I reckon it still grows . They called it ginseng is what they I haven ' t seen any in a long time , but we were always •••• Now there was something you gathered mullen and when it began to get dry it would stick you up . bath . Q: What was it? You just had to change your clothe s and take a �4 A: I don't know . It was a little old fuzz or something, you know, and it would get on you and just itch you to death . Q: Was there anything that you can think of that was good about the Depression? A: No , I think that everything was bad . Q: Well, what was the worst thing about it? A: Well, in clothes and food you just didn't have the money to buy it with and you really couldn 1 t get it because it ;just wasn't there . Q: Well , did you or your mother make, your own clothes? A: Mama went and made our own clothes and she didn ' t even have a sewing mach- ine. She had to sew with her fingers, or maybe there would be a neighbor some- where around that would have a sewing machine that didn 1t mind, but usually people just didn ' t have time for a neighbor to come in, sit down , and stay all day and sew . So , she would sew with her fingers and make our clothes and they would make long dresses that really took more . so hard . I guess that was the reason times were It took more to make the clothes because the dresses were way down to your feet, you know, had big collars to them . It really took a lot of material to make clothes , now you can take a little bit just so your legs are had in it. Q: Where did you get the cloth? A: Well, thake and but it in have now . the town, city. They didn't have cloth like they What you could get, it was awfully hard to iron . then, you lmow. I wonder what we did make it out of . varieties of material, you know, like they have now . I didn 1 t notice it They didn't have different A lot of people that raised sheep would make their own wool, you know , to knit socks and sweaters and things. Q : What do you think caused the Depression? �s A: Well, I just. don ' t know . Q: Did you hear any people around blaming any certain people for the Depression1 Ai No , I don ' t remember if they did . He was the Republican pres dent . A lot of people blamed Hoover, you know . A lot of pe9ple blamed him, because I heard them say that he had a lot of grain thrown in the ocean that the poor people could have usedo It would have made it more plenti'ful, you know , wheat , in the community. Q: They said he threw grain in the ocean? A: Instead of giving it out they did that , you know, to make the prices go up . Q: Did they, was that true or was the just what the people used to tell? A: W ell, now ! don ' t know if it was true , but that is what they all said . They said what made the meat prices go up , they killed a lot of the animals when they were little . They didn ' t have feed to feed them. I think in something like that, if they managed it right, try to help everybody get a start to have sanething, because it ain ' t everybody that is poor because they want to be . Qa So , did the local, what were the local at titudes towards the leaders of the government? A: W ell, I just don!.t remember much about them then , because we always lived back from anybody else and didn ' t have much . Then young ' uns didn ' t pay any attention to what they. . . _-_ _ • Q: How were the farmers, what was their situation during the Depression? Do you thinlc they felt any differently than the people who didn ' t farm? A: Yes , because if they that farmed really fared better because they didn ' t have to buy, you know, all that stuff o It really made a difference all the way around . �6 Give the farmer some of his money back and give the people , you lmow, something to eat that they woul dn ' t have had . Q: Did you ever sell any of your crops other than the herbs that you collected? A. No , not too many, because we were always renters , had the farm on the shares and usually our part, it would take it, for us to eat . was the farm that you were on? Q : How big A: Well , it would just be small farms that we would be on . Sometimes it would be about fi'fteen acres of corn , and then maybe five acres of potatoes , or something like that . Well , by the time the owner of the land would get his share out of i t , we wouldn ' t have too much to sell. We usually always had same potatoes and beans , to sell . Q: How did you think the tenant system worked? A: W ell, you could rent a place and you ' d get house rent . of the stuff, they ' d give you half of what you made . If you furnished half If you couldn't affarEl to pay for farming equipment, they'd pay for it and you could just end it . That's a preetty bad thing, because you had to work a whole lot to make all that . would taice all your time to aake it . It Then , however , it was havested and divided you didn ' t get much by getting a tmird of it . So , if ycu were a big family, you'd have to be careful to make it go around , you know , to do until it was raised again . thl~ Q: Were there very many people doing A: Yes , there were a lot of people doing that . during the Depression? SeliU!lea to me like that there just weren ' t too many people that did own their places . all thouMt was wealthy. It would be sanebody that we Maybe there would be two or three tenants on one farm . The one that did the renting, that owned it, he really come out pretty good , having �7 several different people . Q: Did he sell crops? A: Yes , he would sell. Q: Did he sell maybe part of the CI'9PS that you harvested really? A: Yes , and take it off, maybe to the cities , the town . were just small and maybe one or two stores . could take . Back then the to~ms They ' d but everything that you Then the people that didn 't have it, would come and but it fDom them o Q: .Ih you remember any of the work proje cts that were started? A: Yes , I can renember that but not until I grew up and got married . I had t wo twin brothers so everything was gettin pretty well organized when they got up , you know , old enough to work . Do you remember any of the things that these people on projects did? A: I don ' t . Q: Were there any other efforts that were made to help recover from the Depression? A: I think that what came out when there wasn ' t anything mcuh . Now what was thi s Democratic President after Hoover? What was his name? Q: Roosevel.t ? A: Now it seemed to me like whenever he got in, things began to change . ~an to build these buildings for schools . to good . They be- That gave people jobs but it didn ' t pay They ept on until ••• I think they just changed the nam .of it about the same time . That was baxk when they started it , that building the gymnasiums and bigger schools , different room. Now, back when I went to school , it was just a one room school building arJI they went from the first grade to seventh . �8 O .: W your father on one-. of the work programs? as A: Yes, that was where he had to work to walk eight miles a day. miles there and four miles back . He had to leave at four o 1 clock and cane in at I don ' t know what time it was . dark . It was four He was so far away, he had to take a light of the morning to see how to go and we live in Ashe C omty and that was down at Fleetwood, you know, where tmy built . Q: What was the nome of it where they worked? A: It wasn't W . A. .P husban used to e They had that going on when I was grown and married . My r k on i • ? A t Yes , when me and him were married and then he quit after we got married . Q: Was the Depression about over by then? A: rle~ , yes, pretty much, because everything got to working around until there was a right smart of work going on and it has been ever since . Q: ·11e11, what kind of work did you do , Mr. 'l!ownsend? A: On thew . ed buil a A. He worke hospital ~. on it some clearing the roads, you know, and he help- That was up there in town, well, she don ' t know where it is but they had the old one . �9 because there were just two brothers . They was twins so everything was getting pretty well organized when they got up , you know , old enough to work . Do you remember any of the, the t hings that these proje ts, any of the work that was done on them, wh t they did? A: Q: No, I don't. fore there any other efforts that were made to help recover from the A: ression? I think that what came out when there wasn ' t anything much , ••• ow what was this Democratic President after H oover? Q: As Roosevelt. T Jhat was his name? l oosevelt? ow it seemed to me like whenever he got in , things began to change , because they began to build, these buildings for the schools, and different schools · 1hat gave the pe ople that didn ' t have anything much to do or to live on, it give them a job, but it didn 't pay too good at the time being, 1 hey kept on until. •• I think they just changed the name of it about the same thing is going on now only they raised it up , and gave it different names • 11 t was back when they started it, th t building the gymnasiums and bigger schools , different rooms . Now, back when I went to school , it was just a one room school building and they went from the f irst grade t o seventh. Q: las your father on one of the work programs ? A: Y eah, that was where he had to work or walk eight mi les a day, I.k- �10 was four miles there and four miles back . Had t o leave at four o ' clock arrl cme in at dark j I don ' t know what tbne it was , He was so far away, he had to take a light , of the morning to see how to go and we lived in Ashe County and that was down at Fleetw ood, you know , where they built. Q: lhat was the name of it where they worked? A: Oh . Q: . • p • A•? No , wasn't ·•• P . and married . A., because they had that going on when I was grown y husband used to work on it . He did? Yeah , when me and him ~as married and then he quit after we got married . at year did you all get marrie ? '38 . Q: W the Depression about over by then? as vell , yes , pretty much , because everything got to working around till there was a right smart of work a going on and it has been ever since . Q: · ell what kind of work did you do , M . Townsend? r It was ••• Q: On the work program? A: On the 1• . P . A. he worked on it some clearing the roads , you know 1 H.e built , helped build, you worked on a hospital, , , what ever hes pi tal , the old one , you know, where the old hospital was? That was , up there in town , well , she don ' t know where it is at , but they had the old one . �1Tt. 11 I (Jc. He helped work on it and some of them back ••• ( ote: r . Townsend and Jane Efird have been carrying on a short indecipherable conversation . Q: It will be picked up here . ) rlhy don 1 t you tell, talk into there and tell us about working on the • P. A., what you remember? (Laughter) Q:: ow , you just talk , go ahead and just tell us then . ou said you worked on the roads , what di d you have to do? A: ell, we fixe d the roads , fiXed the roads down in places , places , for people to get in and out . 0 fferent W hauled dirt and rocks and we e fiXed the places so people could get in and out. Trim the roads , keep the road , trim the road of bushes and things like that, so people could, roads would be open . Q: . . A: Did you work on that before you were married or after? Yeah , I worked before I married • ( rs . ·"Townsend) You just worked before , when we was married and quit right after . Q: at did you do at the hospital, what did you say you helped build that? I hauled cement and brick and mortar blocks , I mean cinder blocks . (Jane Efird speakfng to Janice Young) during the Depression (} rs . Townsend) he could If they weren 1 t married, tell something about it . If you could get him to talk till he'd understand, he don't seem to remember much. Q: (Jane Efird speaking to Janice Y oung) aybe if you could let �12 her ask him . ( Janice speaking to Mrs. Tmmsend) You could ask him sane questions that yav. know he would know about . A: (l rs . Townsend speaking to school house at A: Q: A: You helped build that alle Crucis didn't you? (Mr . Townsend) eah . • P. A. in that? (M . Townsend ) rs ( r . Townsend) Q: • Townsend) Yeah , the •T. P . A. Y , the eah • P . ~A . built it. Before you got married , where you living on the farm or · with your parents? W ell, we just had a garden , that' s a ll . Q: ~ as it hard to get food then? I o, it wasn't so hard . I just staye d hane an (lielpe ) my folks , my daddy and mammy and my brother was all there were of us , so me and him just stayed there and helpeJ them , looked after them . Q: A : W hat di d your father do f or a living? Tell , he used to work on t he railroads till after he got disabled till he couldn 't do anything , - couldn't work . He used to carry the mail, too , didn ' t he? used to carry the mail. He kindly ••• ( rs . Townsend) (M . Townsend) r Yeah , he He carried the mail for several years and he used to work on the railroad tracks . Q: What did he do ? Y mean on the railroads? ou Q: A: \ Yeah . He ftel{)id raise til es , I mean cross ties and things like that . �13 Q: Bid you have enough money during the Depression? A: Q: ell , we kindly made out . \ ere there any things that were hard to get that you needed? A: ell, groceries and things like that weren't as high as they are now . There was more and seemed like they were cheaper back then than there was now . Oh , we did raise mostly our own stuff from the garden and things like , we always had corn, corn and potatoes and stuff like that . Always had plenty of app les and things like that to live on. · as there anything that you needed that you had to buy? ell , we bought some stuff that we needed such as flour , and stuff like that at the store that we needed . Q: A: ere did the money come from to buy the stuff that you needed ? ell, that was when I was working for that r. P . A. business and then my mother she drew a check every month . Q: A: t kind of check? County check , they give her a county check , her and my da dy, a county check that way every month . Q: That was during the Depression? A: Y . eah Q: What did they give it for? A: They all got it and, they all got rations and things like that with it . It was kind of what they called the 01 Age Pension . I think he is mixed up, th t was just before they died . (M . Townsend) rs �14 Q: A: How did you get started on the • P . A. ? ell, I just got out there and signed up f or it to give me a job, something, a job t o work , so I signed up . I worked up there , I worked up there the whole time before I was married . Q : ~as it hard work? · ell , some days it was pre tty hard and some days it wasn ' t . I 'blilt fires whenever it was col d weather , whenever it was cold why again they built , kept fires going, to keep warm and everything around. The bossman always told me , give me the job always keeping fires and things like that . Q: How much did you get paid ? A: I couldn't tell you now , how much, it has been •• • Q: as it enough? A: Huh? Q: W what you got paid, was it enough to buy the tllings you needed? as O yeah , we ma e out, I made out alright . h, Again , I'd get stuff on credit at the store and then I would soon pay up. Q: as +,he pay enough f or people t o live on or not? A: W ell, a lot of those ot her peopl e they had rad i os or anything, but they always paid out, took and got groceries and stuff like that with that . Q: A: D d anybody else in y CfUI' fami l y work on any of those proj ects? i o, nobodyA but me worked on i t . �15 Q: as it hard to , to get on with work programs ? A: o, it wasn ' t so hard to get on and I signed up , up here at Boone . It wasn't so hard to ge t on . Q: A: Q: D d people make fun of the people who worked on work projects? i o, they never di d, nobody never di say anything about it . W ell, were a lot of people around in your neighborhood workin g on the project? A: Y , there was a lot of people around over there where I lived eah that worked on it . (EN OF PA_T III ) �16 TAPE .u2 SIDE B PA. T IV Q: 1 1ell, like over in, I was reading a book that said over in Kentucky, people that worked in a coal mine ••• A: Uh, huh ••• Q: They had it real bad, couldn't get money, couldn't ge t food . d you all know people like that? A: No . e never di d have ••• (· rs . Tmms en ) M ost of the people were , th at would work , a few people around that wouldn't work , no m tter what kinds of a good job they had to help them out and they have it pretty rough. I 'm a having it ri ght now . Just like (laughter) A it h s been a couple of nd years that I ain ' t been able to work . The young 'uns helps me out some . (M . Townsend ) A while back I used to work in the furniture shop r down in H ibriten . I was down there f or a year or two . Y eah, Allen did work in Lenoir at Hibriten some back in ( rs . Townsend) ' 43, he worked at H ibriten. ( r . Townsend) ibriten and at G reer's Herb I worked down there at H ouse, where they had herbs and things like that you know . H I worked both places down there . Q: That was after you got married that you were working down there? (Mrs . Townsend ) Uh, huh , because what makes me remember it, my little girl was born while he was working down there and he ha to stay a week at a time. �17 Q: Oh, you didn't live down there? (M . Townsend) rs o, we lived up here and he ' d go down there on the mail of the first of the week and then he ' d come back the next weekend . (He ) Stay a week at the time and I went to my sister's . They lived over in town and I stayed when my little girl was born. Q: D you ever hear of anybody making moonshine during the id pression to pay for things ? Io , I didn't, but I want to tell you sanething my da dy- in-law, A llen's father , said that his mo her , the family that she stayed with that raised her , that they made it and that was on up above where they lived , and Mr . Townsend said that was why he married randmaw . It was to get her out of the furnace , you know, she was hel ping them make ••• Q: M oonshine ? : Q: A: 0: Yeah . D you remember, during the Depression, the banks closing? o o, I don't remember too much about that . How were businesses affected? D they lose trade ? id ell , I just can ' t tell you , ju t didn't know much about it , you see , he ' s fifteen years older than I am . Q: Did a lot of people move out of the mountains during the Depression looking f or work? Y , they did . es Q : There was a lot of people left, trying t o find work . D they come back or what happened to them? id �18 A: ell , I don 't know , some of them after so long a time , would come back , but they waited, I reckon , till sanething, better and , up here where it opened up . eems like ot a little ~it took me a long time to remember , I mean, since now , seems like that I just can't remember back too far or something . I mean, how things went or , about business . Q: D you remember any women working on any of the Federal ·brk o Programs? A: The first that I remember about working, I don ' t remember wh~t women kind it was . It was at ; ~st Jefferson and , it was , now, I ' ve knmri women th t , to be work in the stores , with merchandi se . They went and shipped an awful lot of cattle over there at · rest Jefferson and I don ' t kno 1 where from, I guess it was from everywhere and they had a stockyard over there and they would kill them and fix them, give them out, to the people that needed them, poor people that. and it was a job for , some of the women, to help do To help to give it out or fix it up , to the ones that needed it, it give them a job, like people would . Q: A: Q: A: That was during the D epression? eah . And it was free? eah, it was free , to the main people that didn 't have nothing at all . �19 Q: · ere there a lot of people like that around? A: \· ell , there were several big families , maybe where the families , the mother wasn't able to work , well there wasn't work then for .the women, it's the first I knew women working except , maybe once in a while , in st~res or something or school teacher . they had great big crowds an Q: But - where the man, ju t couldn't provi de for them . •ell, di d you know people like your father who didn 't want to take things free? There was a lot of people that just wouldn't want to take things like that . Q: A: Thy? ell, I don' t lmow , I guess that made them feel a little bit help- less or something . Q: ell, were the schools affected by the epression? ell , back then they didn't have any lunch rooms as I can remember, anything to offer them at school, they ha d to take their own lunch, those that didn't live close enou gh , that they could to eat . And rtm back in a few minutes so , about something like that I don't remember , the parents had to buy the books , and the paper and everything that the child used, see they had to , just buy that and the going to school, it didn't cost them anything but, the books and the paper , the pencils , stuff like th8t , the parents had to pay for it . Q: ~ell, do you lmo they didn't : anybody that had to quit because of that , because ve enough money? •Jell, they couldn't quit . They wouldn't allow them to quit . �20 If they didn 't have it and c ldn't afford it now I guess it was maybe scmeway from the school , to give them paper to do their homework on . But, it seemed like they didn 't do as much , as , like they do now . '·Tere the churches affected in any my? A: No, I don't think that they was . i-. ell, what were , I guess you had people talking about it , what were their i deas or attitudes like durine the Depression, were they worried about it? es , about everybody was woITied, afnaid that they cruldn 't get what they needed, they were going to have to do without, things that they needed and a lot of them did do without a whole lot and I guess about everybody did to a certain extent. Q: Di they feel like maybe it wasn't going to en ? W ere they afraid that it was going to keep on like th t? r ell, I don't know , but I imagine that they do because , now things that happened, we feel like it .' s going an forever . Q: How did they get out of the Depress ion , how did the co1IDtry get out of the ression? ·Jell , I reckon everybody must have got together , and worked in, something to give everybody scmething to do . Q: i at, how did you know it was over, how did you know that the Depression had ended? A: · ell , I guess when everything got better till people could make it alright . �21 Q: A: o you think that the work programs arrl the federal programs helped? Y , that helped . es f hey gave jobs , but what else do you think helped Q: them out? A: : ell, I don't know , I guess it gave people more ideals , till they could, could go on and do more , to keep more going , more to do and causing to be more, ' cause see I reckon it takes talents and knowledge , to keep it up an the more that they try to do, the more you know how to open up , s omething else and I ess , that's the way everything got started and to make people feel better anyway and eally did better . It's been for a few years , seemed like everybody's been doing pretty good , but they have to wo k . Q: D d you see any l asting effects caus ed by the Depression? i o. Q: '"ell, do you think , how would you canpare the ~ression of the 'JO's to the way things are today? A: ell , there's been a lot of difference , but there's a lot of similance (similarity). H ere about a year ago , when they began to close down sane shops and things like that , that reminded me , what it used to be way back yonder , they wasn ' t nothing open, to do . Q: at about family life? Has it been, could you compare the way it is now as to how it was A: uring the Depres ion? o, I think life goes on pretty well the same . �22 Q : at about prices ? A: , ell , there's a difference in prices . Q: There are di fferences ? . Yeah, there are , there 's a lot of differences , well, everything i s higher n than it was back then, but you see , if the prices are ~ low and you don ' t get pay an money, ah , they ain't much difference in whether you c make a lot more and the prices are high, than it i s when you don 1 t get anythin anything . 0 and you don 1 t have to pay much for So, it's just as hard, back then when prices were low , you didn ' t have anything to buy it with , you couldn ' t get any more than enough , it's just like it is now , it's just hard life , I reckon , ' just you get a whol e lot of money, you have to pay a whole lot and if you don ' t get much money, well, now if you ain ' t got much money you have to pay, but then you didn t hav. . to . Q: Is there anything else you ' d like to tell about the D epression, anything you remember? · ell, there ain ' t nothing really that I can remember . Q: fuat about you M . Townsend , i s there anything you' d like to add ? r A: I don ' t know of anything. Q: 0. • , any more questions ? ( END OF APE) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Townsend, Mrs. & Mr. Allen Interview Date 9/25/1975 Number of pages 22 pages Date digitized 9/18/2014 File size 10.2MB Checksum alphanumeric code c08dbee4015362a0037fdd0be79ab830 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape335_Mrs&MrAllenTownsend_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mrs. & Mr. Allen Townsend [September 25, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Townsend, Mrs. & Mr. Allen Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Mountain life--North Carolina--Ashe County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Depression--1929--North Carolina--Ashe County Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Townsend, Allen Townsend, Allen, Mrs. Description An account of the resource Mr. and Mrs. Townsend talk about the Depression and how it affected their families. He explains: "It was just everything, you know, seemed different and a shortage of everything." Farmers were the ones who fared the best, because they didn't have to buy in order to support themselves. His family worked on a farm during the Depression, but they didn't own the farm. Most people in Ashe County, because they "lived so far back from everybody else" didn't know much about the political situation, or why the Depression was happening. He remembers that when Roosevelt things changed, and schools started to be built in his area. His father was assigned to a work program and had to walk eight miles a day to get to work. Allen Townsend Ashe County crops dried herbs farming Federal Work Programs Fleetwood Franklin Roosevelt ginseng Great Depression Greer's Herb House Herbert Hoover herbs Hibriten Jane Efrird railroad work projects Works Progress Administration WPA https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e71c3962b6026b4437e3f85535e7e0d4.pdf 3ecd91321be125e1d7751174fe430a23 PDF Text Text OUTLINE-Phil Templeton - Nov. 12, 1975 I. History of business A. II. Recession A. III. 1967 - Becoming popular w/Fla. people (area). 1. Saw demand so started business 2. Been growing steadily since 1967 Affected all real estate businesses 1. Reason - People no longer can spare money for investments Discussion of business A. What type of people real estate in Boone is for 1. Offices in business for 5-10 yrs. for investors looking for property 2. University had increase since '63 a. Students b. Parents c. Faculty & staff SHORT INTERRUPTION BY TELEPHONE CALL 3. We are in diversified markets (moble homes, apts., buying land) B. How to acquire land 1. You know what land is available 2. Through real estate board meeting 3. A business describes what they want & we go find it C. Why do people come to mountains to build 1. Beauty of mtns. D. People bringing w/them what they are trying to leave. Is development changing mtns.? 1. Some people more to Boone & then want development stopped but a selfish approa~ 2. Economic side a. Farmer who can't make decent living 3. County zoning good but shouldn't go too far a. City zoning ordinance b. No county zoning yet 4. Farming here never been lucrative 5. Ecologists inconsiderate 6. To tell a guy he can't grade a mtn. top is one thing �2 E. Good things brought about by development 1 . Roads improved 2. Other economic improvements 3. Created income , jobs 4. Given people a reason to stop in Boone a . Motels improved 5. When you stop development , stop growth a . To those who have steady income , don ' t care if Boone doesn ' t grow b . People narrow-minded in their fixed positions F. Will mountains lose cultural heritage 1 . T. V. makes people aware of outside world 2 . Culture & mtn . life as once known will soon be gone G. Can there be progress & save culture 1. Don ' t know of any way a . Would be good to preserve heritage & upgrade standing at same time H. What would you like to see happen in area 1 . As real estate man a . Boom & growth (orderly growth) I. What do you predict will happen? 1 . Boone's growth will level off in 1980 a . No money to invest b . University growth will level off c . No influx of industry d . Not enough people to man industry 2 . No boom for yrs . to come a. We are gearing down now. J • . Personal comments 1. Have enjoyed living in area but desirability depends on ability to make an income �This is Janice Young and Jane Efird on November the 12th , 1975. We're working for the Appalachian Oral History Project at Appalachian State University. Today we are speaking with Mr. Phil Templeton who is at Carolina Realty. And we · re speaking to him at his office on Blowing Rock Road, in Boone. Q: O. K., Will you give us a brief history of your business? A: 0. K. The , our business was organized in April of 1967, uh, primarily due to the fact that the area at that time was becoming very popular with Florida people and uh people who wanted to buy resort property acreage for investment , second homes, and things of this sort. We saw the demand and , so we set up our offices at that time and we have uh grown steadily from then to our present time and our present location. Q: O. K., uh , how has the recent recession , has it affected your business? A: Most definitely , I think it has affected all real estate companies. Uh , the reason being the people that we were selling land to and houses and investment acreage , were people who had made good profit in the stock market or who had saved up their money for retirement and thought they could spare some of it for investments. People coming up looking for second homes, and then when the energy crisis came, 18 or 24 months ago, and inflation kept growing , people became concerned about their retirement money not being sufficient for their own needs let along investment. They became concerned about having the gasoline to drive from Atlanta to Boone to see their property. and uh this curtailed that investment group ) I ' d say a good 75~. �2 Q: Uh , you said , you know , your busine s s really got started when the Florida people and people like that came. Uh , do not necessarily you , but other real estate businesses around here , do you all cater particularly , you build for people like that or are there some of the real estate businesses geared more for local people like building homes and stuff like that? A: Well , most of the real estate offices that have been in operation for 5 to 10 years have uh made the main , their main efforts , directed their main efforts toward the investors looking for property up here. And in addition to that , the university had a growth of about 6,000 , , had an increase of about 6 , 000 form 1963 until the present time and this growth in student population caused the growth in the faculty and staff. Uh , it brought parents up here who had never before been in the area. that they wanted to buy. They saw things In fact , we just sold a house the other day to a student , a girl student who · s father bought it for her to live in while she goes to school. Uh , the university I think has as much impact , the growth of the university had as much impact on the area as did the skiing industry and the tourism in general. So , people , real estate companies , who have geared themselves primarily toward that market are in bad trouble or have gone out of business because that market dried up. the point where (INTERRUPTION: We're diversified to PHONE CALL) As I was saying , the real estate companies who have, who were geared to that market alone, the Florida market and the investors have had a very difficult time. But we were, we were in a business, �3 a business earlier and became diversified in the mobile home parks . commercial development , uh , buying and selling real estate, ourselves, and the apartment complex we had, so we've been able to exist where others would have had to fold up. Q: That's another question I wanted to ask was , like what all tyµes of like apartments you were saying and mobile homes and buy and sell real estate . How do you acquire your land? Would you tell us a little about that? A: Well , being in the real estate business you know what land is available for sale . some is too high . Some land comes in at a good price, If a piece of property is listed with us that we feel like is a good buy , and that we can develop it , then we ' ll buy it ourselves and develop it , you see. Uh , some other realtor might have a piece of property for sale that we find out about through our local real estate board meeting . and then we buy that land. Another case is , is if a business comes to town wanting a building built and lease it to them. They tell us what they want and what they ' ll pay and then we go out and find the property and build the building for them, or sell it to them or Whatever. Q: So that ' s the method of operation. I have a question that's made just to be an opinion of yours . Why do you think so many people like to come to the mountains here? And have do so much in the past? �4 A: Well , primarily the mountains themselves. I've travelled all over the world, from Hong Kong to Switzerland, and there are very few places that are as pretty as the Western North Carolina Mountains, believe it or not. I've been to the Rocky Mountains, I've been to uh the Carribean , I've been all over. and for natural beauty this area is hard to beat. Q: It really is . Well , uh , another man we interviewed made a comment that the peoole that are , that are , do come up here , like Florida people, that they're really bringing with them what they are trying to leave , you know to come to these beautiful mountains. think , what do you think about this? Do you Do you think the real estate business or all this development is changing the mountains? A: It's changing the mountains , but I don't think to a , to a negative degree because a 200 acre tract of land is nothing , you know , unless someone does something with it . So , there are those people who would like to come up here and say , O. K. , I ' m, I've moved to Boone , not let's, let's, cut, cut all future growth out, now that I'm here. O. K? Cause I like the way - Jo~ B~ ow ' s farm i s s just like that -=:ana >!'.:·-.don't want him to develop it, see cause ; I want to enjoy it for my own beauty . of people I resent. ment. So, that's the type I'm for ecology , and I'm for orderly develop- But you've always got the extreme element who comes in and says O. K. , I'm here now Boone to grow any more . ago O. K? that's all I care about . I don't want We sold a house to a couple about 2 years and the other ni ght at a meeting his wife made that very comment, �5 I don't want Boone to grow any more , now that · r•m here. that's a selfish approach to it. Well, So , I think a lot of times people have the uh , notion that they can dictate to another property owner what he can do with his lands. that the And I'm sure Utopia would be that everything would remain in its natural state and be beautiful and everybody would enjoy it, but, for those who have to look at the economic side of it , a farmer whose , who can no longer make a decent living on a farm. What's he gonna do . see , is he gonna draw welfare , or is he gonna be allowed to develop his property, sell off tracts and uh, and derive income from that, and continue to live of is he going to be uh , put into welfare for the rest of his days , you see? I think a happy medium's got to be struck here, so county zoning , is a good thing providing its not, its not done too far, you see. Q: What kind of zoning laws are there in Boone? What kind of restrictions are there? A: Well in the city of Boone , of course , you have the city zoning ordinance , which takes care of your , it takes care of all the property within the city limits of Boone , that's the residential, the commercial . the industrial , properties. of the town. yet. So , uh , that takes care Now outside of the city , we don't have county zoning There's been , uh , a lot of effort put toward coming up with a county zoning plan. But here you get into such uh , a bag of worms because what one farmer wants to do with his land the other farmer might not want to. And you , you get to tinkering with someone s uh , ability to make, uh, a living off their land , you see. And it's , it's much more difficult to have orderly zoning of a county �6 than it is a city, for the reasons that most of the rural people are, are very very much against someone in town passing an ordinance or a county law telling them that they can't raise hogs in their back yard, if tha2s what that guy has for a source of income. See, the farming in this area never has been lucrative. The weather is too unpredictable. not enough rain. very great. If you got too much rain or The cost of farming hillside land is very, is So, I am for zoning and things as long as it's done in moderation, you see. But invariably your ecologists , and when I speak of ecologists I'm not speaking of the average citizen, I'~ talking about those who , who go out and eat the bark off the trees and this sort of thing , the real , the real nature lovers. They're the ones who I think are the most inconsiderate andthe most demanding on other peoples rights. Q: Especially as relates to their farm. Do you have any kind of restrictions on , like how it can be used? land use sales , You know , laws like , I mean like, if you sell some land , is there any way people can use it, like they can go out and just grade it off , you know, leave it bare? A:· Well , inside the city limits, if we sell a tract of land, the buyer has to develop it according to the zoning law, Number 1. Number 2, we have the pollution laws now which prohibits someone from grading off a hillside and just leaving it there without reseeding it and I think that's good, you know. I think that's O. K., but to tell a gµy that he can't grade· off a mpuntaintop is one thing , but to let him grade it off and then let him put it back in a good state of appearance and uh , erosion proofing all right. I think that's �7 Q: Uh , I have a auestion here about not just , not just your business , but just all the development that has taken place over the past or however many years. Could you give us in your opinion what are some of the good things that have come about because of this development? For instance , the economic situation. Then give us some of the bad things you think. A: Well , I, I moved to Boone when I was must have been 8 or 9 years old. And , back at that time , the population of Boone was probably 15 hundred. The student population probably 900. we didn't have good roads in through Boone. entertainment-wise. Uh, We had meager facilities, There was one movie in _town. Uh, there were no restaurants to go out to eat to speak of , maybe one or two little cafes. The university hadn'g expanded to offer the arts and the sciences and the things it does today , the local people can take advantage of. So , as the area has grown, the roads have been im- proved , and I noticed in the paper this week that River Street back there is going to be four-lane . and this is , this is the good things that come about as a result of growth. When a business comes into town . and succeeds that creates jobs for people . that creates income for their employees to spend in the local stores. It creates a better economic situation all the way around , you see. something more to people coming through Boone. reason to stop , whereas in years past It offers It gives them a they'd come through town and s ay , well , there was Boone , what was it , you know. I missed it. Now we · ve got a Holiday Inn in Boone, they'll stop and spend the night. And, before the Holiday Inn came , many people didn't stay in Boone simply because the motels were so inferior. want to come and stay in a dinky motel. They didn't So, an upgrading of the �accomm .iations and I think that uh , just a general economic, uh, improvement comes from development. And when you stop the developers, I'm speaking of commercial developers, land developers, in terms of residential of anything like that you'll literally stop the gfowth, you see. And that's fine for someone to uh be in favor of that who has a state job at the university , drawing a salary from the state, if Boone didn't grow another bit it wouldn't matter. But if that person weren't employed by the state , and had to depend on outside employment for . for livelihood , he·11 look at it differently you see. It's very easy for those people on fixed salaries or state salaries to . to look out and say well now he shouldn't have built that hamburger joint right there because it will hurt the looks of that street. But if he weren't drawing that salary from the state, then he would be out having to be employed by , perhaps by that burger house. And then it'll be an asset to him. I think people are narrow-m~nded in their , in their opinions sometimes because of , they're secure in their positions so the heck with everybody else. Q: I think one of the main things that we were , that uh the Oral History has been concerned with is the question of whether Appalachian mountaineers are gonna lose their cultural heritage with all the new ~eople coming in , and all the change going on. What do you think about that? A: Very possibly you're , that could be , especially to some degree. If a guy has made a living building mountain crafts, lets say, and uh the area keeps growing he can get a-job in a factory , then you're losing one segment of the , uh of the craft business , and maybe that is never taken up again in his family. But } with the advent of television and people in this area having TV's in their homes, �9 they're aware of the outside world much more than, than we were when I was growing up here. Uh, when I was growing up , to go to town on Saturday was a pig deal . you know , and to go to the movie was an even bigger deal. when I was growing up. I think it cost a dime to go to the movie But , uh , I think the . the influence of , of , uh . t.elevision and radio and news , dissimination in particular has had as much influence as anything else. So , I think you're right , uh , the cultural end of it and the , the mountain life as it was once known , will soon be , be gone. Q: Do you see any way of keeping all the progress and saving this cultural heritage? A: Frankly , I don't know how you would do it , uh, I wish there were some way to do it , uh , I wish there were some way to do it. In other words, if you could keep the culture like it was and yet upgrade a fellow's standard of living , you see. To go back into the mountains here and find an old mountain family that's been rooted in their uh area there for a hundred years and to observe them with curiosity and amusement is one thing , but to upgrade that fellow ! s standard of living to where he has an indoor bath , television , uh, hot-air furnace . an automobile to drive 1 a tractor to plow his fields with . it's very difficult for that to ever come about unless he leaves the old ways and adapts to the new , to the new times. Q: The last uestion I have here is , what would you like to see happen in this region, say within the next 20-25 years in the area of growth and progress? �10 A: Well . as a real estate man . of course . you have a desire to see the thing grow and get back in the boom it was in the early 1970.s. On the other hand , I can see that there would be dis- advantages to that continuing right on without orderly growth, so if I were to have, uh , if I were to have my , my wishes granted in that respect , I would say wish for an orderly growth, by that I mean , a growth that can be kept up with in utilities , in streets, in services , uh , commerserate with the number of people coming in the area. I don't think any area should grow faster than its cap- abilities for providing the essential services, in terms of power, uh , fuel . uh . roads , services , shopping areas and schools. So as long as the . the services and utilities could keep up with it , I think it would be fine. Q: What do you predict will happen? A: Well . if I were , if I had a crystal ball I would say that the growth of Boone is going to level off sometime around 1980. Two or three reasons , one reason I think people aren't going to have the extra money to . to uh . invest in pro erty , they're going to have to spend the money that they have to live on. With inflation, the cost of everything going up , we're not going to have the excess money that we once had. level off. Secondly , I think the University growth is going to I think m~ybe you get up to ten or twelve thousand students and that'll be the plateau that uh, that'll level off . Uh , thirdly I don't think that there·s going to be any influx of industry here to speak of, because the lack of , of uh, water and rail service , and the trucking up the mountains can get so expensive �11 that's another deterent to industries moving in . Another item is we simply don't have the people to man another great deal of industry you ee . Industry ' s going to go where the people are, and where their products going out you see , their materials coming in and so forth . And we don't have this , I would say that ' s the biggest drawback to . the biggest single drawback is the rail service. we have a railroad now in West Jefferson. Now Giving an example, I am one of the owners of a lumber company , and we · re buying· our lumber from the west coast. It's sh~pped all the way to Boone , or to West Jefferson rather , on . uh , rail cars and we take our trucks to West Jefferson . pick it up and haul it to Boone. Now there·s not enough demand for that rail service in this area to make it a profitable operation for the railroads, therefore , they ' ve petitioned the, uh , agency that handles that to eliminate , to let them eliminate the , uh , rail service to West Jefferson . Now when that happens we'll have to go down to North Wilkesboro and pick up the lumber and haul it all the way up the mountain on trucks which is going to take .more time, more fuel , uh, more wear and tear on the vehicles , and consequently, cost more money to someone buying lumber . So , if we had a rail head in Boone . let's say , like , uh , we had a good track in and out ofr Boone that would make a big difference because then you could induce a factory to come in , but it's difficult for them to do it all by trucks. And this is the problem , one of the biggest problems we · re going t o have . So I would say by 1980 we'll see a great levelling off in the growth of t his area . �12 Q: Between the time from now to 1980 do you think there·11 be another boom like before? A: No . I don't think there 11 be another boom for many years to come. I think we'll have a , a uh . in fact we're on the , we're gearing down now . The big decrease was back in the last 24 months and now it's gonna be a gradual decrease , I think , you know , as far as the people coming in the area and then maybe by 1980 we'll see a levelling off. strictly speculation . Of course . what we're talking about here is I could be dead wrong , but that's . I've given a lot of thought to tha t very auesti on , because that . the answer to that question determines what we do in our offices. Whether we devote our energies to another aspect of real estate , whether we develop commercial properties or houses or whatever . Q: Uh , do you have anything you'd like to add to this , your own personal opinions or anything? A: No , not really, I , just to say that I've enjoyed living in the area and uh , a lot of other people do , but the success or the desirability of anybody living anywhere is their ability to make an income and a living whereever they are and we've had many people come in the area uh , to give an example when (INTERRUPTION - END OF TAPE) This is Jane Efird with Mr . Phil Templeton . we : re interviewing him for the second time on November 20 , 1975 . Q: Mr. Templeton ,. you mentioned before that the area must obtain orderly growth , and uh . you also mentioned that you weren t in favor of too many zoning laws such as the mountain management act , could you , uh , go into detail a little about this , as to why you aren : t uh . too favorable , or too much in favor of this? �13 A: I don t know tha much. about the Mountain Land Management Act yet uh . but in what discussions I've had with people who were familiar with it it seems like that it uh , closely parallels the results of what's happened down east with the Coastal Land Management Act . It was initiated some time ago , and in talking with people who have had contact with that law there . it's very bureaucratic in it's set up. You have to get numerous permits for doing anything. Uh , almost a nightmare of headaches and paper work involved in complying with the letter of the law of the Mountain , I mean of the Coastal Land Management Act that was enacted . business Our concern being in the real estate is that the people who initiate these acts many times have a very honorable purpose in mind and on the face of it , it turns out to be a very good act , but then it ' s expanded , added to , changed, amended . modified or whatever , and becomes a real headache for everybody. And almost stimies growth completely . so unfortunately the people who, uh who make these laws and who enforce them are people who . who have no experience whatever in developing land . they have no concept of the developers point of view they . they're trying to create utopia a it's very difficult to do this and still meet the needs of everybody . So . from what I know of the Mountain Land Management Act , that they're working on at the present time , I think I'd be opposed to it . Not because of it's present statutes , but expect to grow out of it you see . because of what you can Uh , it's , it may be a baby today and a monster tomorrow. Q: Who are these people that are , uh, developing this act? A: I'm sure it's the environmentalists , uh , group , primarily , like the Sierra Club and things of this sort , who get behind it and initiate the action . and of course , you have your federal agenci~s a~d your state agencies who . who get together and uh , you know, actually do the legislation. Uh , drawing up the legislation and submit it to �14 the legislature to be enacted into law. And , uh , the Sierra Club , I think , has done a lot of good things , but by the same token. they have their own nar row interests at heart. care less about the economic growth of a region They could whether the farmer makes a living or whether he doesn ' t is immaterial to them as long as the land is protected for their enjoyment , you see. And : gh . I'm not speaking of all Sierra Club members because I've got friends in town who are members of the Sierra Club. But I think the overall thrust of their effort is uh is in that vein . you know , not so much as to what's the practical approach . but a narrow a narrow view , towards strictly conservation. Q: Uh . last time you were talking about , giving us an example about how much trouble it was to get permits and things like that A: would you tell that now? Locally we don't have too much trouble with that at this point, uh. it seems like almost monthly there·s another permit required to do something , you know. But I think, by and large , we are fortunate in that area because we haven't gotten so regimented that we have problems with it. I was reading in the paper the other day someone down east , it seems like they had to have either 23 or 33 permits . I've forgotten the number , to build one , to build one building . down east . because of this Management Act I was telling you about. Twenty-three different were going to do. And uh ~gen cies very often times , those agencies have overlapping authorities and it's just a ree.1 INTERRUPTION: had to O. K. what they (inaudible) RECORDER TURNED OFF FOR A SHORT TIME �15 Q: O. K. , uh . we re talking about . you said that uh , you felt that we would need to somehow control the growth of the future . you know . have some kind of orderly growth. this should be done? A: How would you say Do you have any ideas about it? Well . I think you've got to have a , a pragmatic approach to it. I think you've got to take the interests of the , the farmer , the city-dweller , the environmentalist , and try to mesh those together and come up with a program for development that neither excludes any of them "s interests , nor gives uh , any one of them the right to just run roughshod over the others. and take situation. It's got to be a give And so , I would say that uh , the zoning should be approached with that in mind to where if a farmer needs to use his land in a way that's not entirely satisfactory with environmentalists that they understand his economic plight , and that each of them are, are made to uh , to work together on it . you see. Any time you have any particular interest group dominating the legislation you ' re going to have a biased approach to it and a , and a biased law coming out of it Q: to where I think it s no good to anybody. Well . who do you think would be able to get something like this together . uh , an organi zaton of all interests you know? It would have to be probably be started by somebody. A: Well . I think , ideally speaking from each sector , you see. you'd have representatives You'd have environmentalists , you'd have your real estate people , you ' d have your , your. farmers , you'd have your uh , townspeople , you know have a committee type situation where all views are , are at least discussed and , and represented. And , of course no legislation I guess is perfect. But I think �16 too many times legislation pertaining to zoning and what not comes out of a group that represents only one , one area you see . One a r ea of thought , whether . and , this has happened in uh, in terms of developers . Many places, developers themselves have gotten on the zoning boards , and have made laws that completely ignore the environmentalists arguments, you see . equally as bad . And that's Being a realtor , I think it's, it's more difficult for me to keep a , an unbiased opinion of it than if I were a, a state employee or something like that . a . a reasonable outlook on it But , but I try to, to keep and not let my personal interests uh . dominate my thinking to the point where it will work to the ~ disadvantage of other ueoule. Q: Uh . you also mentioned before that developers such as resort develoµers are sometimes different than companies like your own, and you were going to give us some examples of that . like that had ignored environmentalist's concerns , such as that . A: Well. I think in Florida , uh and Arizona are the most typical examples of of the unscruplous developer who goes into an area and simply for his economic benefit , striµs the land of all its vegetation, uh dries up the swamps, to where the , the uh , wildlife can't, can't live any longer , uh 1 goes into high-pressure sales just for simply for the matter of selling a lot and making a dollar. And I think those type people have caused much of the legislation to be passed which really is too stringent upon the average citizen , you see . Uh , and so I can see how the , these _1aws originated , but by the same token , they were passed almost entirely with these developers in mind . not with your average real estate developer . I think 1 by and large , your average develouer has the interests of the community at heart . �17 Q: By average, what do you mean? A: Yeah, the local developers in a given area. Local people? Now, you, you've got your exceptions, there are those people who don't care anything about the local people, the local community. Q: Well, do you mean uh, people like yourself who maybe have grown up around here or are you talking about the people that aren't concerned are the people that come in, say developers from, that don't know about the area? A: Yeah, people who care less I think are those who, who don't live here, or coming in from out of the area and say ·hey Boone, North Carolina has, has got a boom going, let's go down and buy a piece of land and cut it up into postage stamp size lots and sell it and move on, you see. Q: Have you, or do you know about any of them, those in this area? A: I don't know of any big concerns, uh, to speak of. I think that uh, that we've been spared a great deal of that in this area, whereas, in Florida and Arizona and places like that its more prevalent. We're not a quite big enough attraction to bring in people like that, your big swindler s , you know. Q: Uh, what part do politics and government play in mountain development? A: I don't know that politics plays much of a ny part. much inclined in a political vein. I'm not I try to keep up with, with politics in the paper and in the news and what not but I've never been associated with any political party. Also, in all the dealings that we've had in real estate I, I don't find government to be to be a factor, politics, either, As far as uh, governing much locally, I don't think politics has, has near the the influence it does in some other area~. In other words, if we have a Republican governor �- 18 or a Democratic governor, I don't think it makes any difference, locally. Now in terms of what influence the government has had uh, I think the greatest influence has come about in the last four or five years. You, You're running more and more into government regulations about everything, you know. You can't do that, you can't do that, you can't do that, and you can't do this, that sort of thing. So, this is what I'm concerned about that we don't have so many regulations that, that it stymies growth, Uh, the Utopia would be if there were enough regulations that we didn't have to evervhave, have uh, a bad development. But by the same token, if you had that type situation, it would be such a nightmare of paper work and permits and inspections and government agencies it would be almost impossible to work within that concept, you see. So, somewhere we need to strike a happy medium, do the best we can, with the least amount of red tape. Q: The next question, I think is another one just about your opinion, and uh, it's just that how, how many would you say real estate companies and developers in this area are local people like yourself that have grown up around here, that own the±r own businesses? A: Probably, there are probably twenty different agencies in this area, but I'm talking about in the Boone immediate area. there's probably Eix locals. ·1 And of those Now, by local I mean people who've been here before the, before the boom started. And then you've got several other people who have moved here and made this their permanent home. Uh, sort of semi-local, I guess you'd call it. And then you've got those people who came here strictly for the development that was taking place. with that you know. And there's nothing wrong Uh, back during, during the gold rush, people went to California because the gold rush was there. But, and some �19 of those people I ' think do as good a job in developing as those of us who've been here all our lives you see. good local developers, you've got b~d You've got local developers. got good developers who've moved in here from You've other ~places, and you've got bad developers. Q: What can local people do to control the orderly growth of development? Or what, if anything, have they been doing? Have the local people gotten together and tried to do something to control the growth as of yet? A: No, I don't think there's any concerted effor~ toward that yet. Uh, I think your, your best approach there is to work through your city council or county commissioners. of a group. Uh, go as a representative Don't go on an individual basis. Try to get a, a meeting of the minds, people have similar ideas to yours, and, and approach the, the right people with them. But, basically, I think, they've got to be reasonable ideas. If I were a city councilman, and someone came to me with a reasonable idea, a fair proposition, I would do my best to see that it was initiated. However, if they came to me strictly with a, a proposition that looked at their own interests, not the interests of the community at large, then I don't think I'd be inclined to help them. So, I think that we need to take our uh, our ideas to, to the local government agencies and officials but before we take them, make sure that they're not so biased in our favor, that it makes it impractical. �20 Q: Uh, one fellow that we interviewed made the comment that so many people are buying land now that uh, the land prices go up, therefore taxes on the land go up. And, uh, you know, if one just, if a person just has a steady income, how can he, that you know, does not go up, how can he cope with this? Would there be, do you see any change in that, or help for him? A: Not really, uh, that's an unfortunate fact of life I guess that taxes are gonna go up whether we use the land or whether it sits vacant. And, uh, I don't think locally, that's, that's been enough of a problem yet to cause anybody undue problems. Now, true, the county tax rate this year did almost double, the tax, the tax on your county property almost doubled over last year. But even at that doubled figure, it's considerably less than taxes in many places, you see. So, I think that this is a part of, a fact of life we're gonna have to live with, that if you want a lot of land you're gonna have to expect to pay increasing taxes uh, on that property. Which to some degree may be a good idea. It'll cause people to put their land into use, to make it productive, in terms of farm products or uh, developing it in terms of secondary homes or primary homes, instead of it just sitting vacant you know, and dormant. see. If nothing else, they could plant a tree farm on it, you There are thousands and thousands of acres of land in this area that have been non-productive for years and years simply because the taxes were so cheap the guy didn't have to make it productive. So, taxes are bad, nobody likes tham but I think it is necessary that we have taxes and uh, I can see a lot of benefits to be derived from it. END OF TAPE � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Young, Janice Efird, Jane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Templeton, Phil Interview Date 11/12/1975 Location The location of the interview. Boone, NC Number of pages 22 pages Date digitized 9/17/2014 File size 14.7MB Checksum alphanumeric code 0d8b019193d786f9ac93b39173165d99 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape332_PhilTempleton_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Phil Templeton [November 12, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Young, Janice Efird, Jane Templeton, Phil Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Real estate developers Rural development--North Carolina--Watauga County Rural development--North Carolina--Ashe County Templeton, Phil Description An account of the resource Phil Templeton, a real estate developer, talks about the development happening in High Country over his lifetime. He attributes the development to the growth of the university, the skiing industry, and tourism in general. He is a proponent of the development, even if it means the loss of traditional mountain culture, because it provides a higher standard of living for people. He says: "Utopia would be that everything would remain in its natural state and everyone could enjoy it, but that's not how it works." Boone Carolina Reality county tax mountain development mountain heritage Mountain Land Management Act mountain resorts permits Phil Templeton pollution laws railroad real estate Sierra Club West Jefferson zoning laws https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9f48b49954b52c43cb73602febcad365.pdf d59c60b3fb713691e42b6d2806d37422 PDF Text Text Peggy Dotterer Interview This is J ane Efird with Marlene Deaton for the Appalachian Oral History Project , July 17 , 1975 . W ' re speaking with Mrs . Peggy Dotterer at her home in Hot Springs , e North Carolina . Q. I just want you to start telling us about the history of the Hot Springs and who first built the hotels around hre . A. Ah , this is history as I have gotten it from my family and my grandparents and ah, it is not authentic as far as dates nor bave I ever researched all this . These are just fond memories of a past era . And my life began in Hot Springs when I was , came back here when I was about ah , a little over two years old . first home here was in the old Hampton Cottage . time . And my And I lived there a very short My father was ill and my father died there .And my mother was the youngest daughter of the Rumbos . And so , I ah) my roots are pretty deep in Hot Springs from ah family ties and from the fact that I have lived here . And whenever I ' ve gone away from here , I have been irrevetably drawn back by what I can ' t t ell you exactly . So, I have seen it from partially the hey- day and I have also listened to glowing tales of days that came before my time on in to very sad to say , when we no longer can be classed as a tourist town of any kind . was the famous Mountain Fog Hotel . many people , summer after summer . And it was ah , still being visited by a great And it was the type of tourism that we no longer have . You came and you brought your trunk . was small . And you spent the summer . they do now , one night stands . close friends . And you came by railroad train when I Ah , you didn ' t move from place to place like And these people came so often that they became quite And the hotel now as I visualize it , from this standpoint , was a great big rambling ah , wooden structure a.r:rl the front road station . And the first hotel that I remember and it faced the rail- Because that was the center of arriving and leaving . And then , it had the two wings tbat went back and the middle was kind of a courtyard and on the back wing near the bay was the big ballroom and there were very gay activi ties there . D:l.ncing every night , orchestras brought in to be there all summer and the thing , one of the things tlB.t was featured besides the gay social life was the curative waters of the mineral springs . And those mineral springs are not looked upon now as they were then �2 but that was the era of the farm , when people were very eager to go to places of that nature and they believed greatly in , mm, the curative powers when they don ' t anymore . And then ah , I was twelve years old when the end of the hotel as a real thriving tourist business of that era which is a very beautiful memory to me . of what people did and what they were like in the life there. to an end by the beginning of W orld W I. ar And ah , that ah , was brought And my uncleJ by that time, was running it because my grandfather was quite elderly and he had divided the ownership of it . And he felt that there would certainly be no tourist business here and so he made a lease with the government for the German Prisoners to be interned here . And the most interesting part that stands out in my mind from them coming , they had a wonderful German band and it sat down on the lawn there and played all the gorgeous German music of the Blue I.anube and all the waltzes and Strauss W altzes . not only heard it from them but it echoed off of the mountains . And you And the officers were interned in , in the main hotel and the sailors ah , they were merchant marines who were taken . golf link . An They were interned across the road in what had been a part of the ah , that of course went on through the war and then when the war was over , it was an army hospital for a short time . have the real old fashioned ah , summer hotels . Rlt never , never again did we And it had been the heart of the town . And of course , there were future attempts for tourism here because we were on 25- 70 . And that for a time was the main road . And it was for a good many years . all the traffic from the mid- west through to Florida . It brought And we lBd ah , a season of winter people on their way down to Florida and on their way back . Bu~as were built , fewer and few people , fewer people came this way at all . And it ' s very sad really for me to have seen it go into the decline that it ' s in now . very definitely the last stroke was the opening of I- 40 . highways But , it And we tried very hard to ge1j, bring the roads through here , but it was a sort of a political deal with who we tried and they got I- 40 and it completely took , took the through traffic away from us . And even t he motel down there that was the motel of the town then ah , is now , it ' s grew but you don ' t see too many people there . And the ah , cafe that was ah , the best one that we had is now is a liquor store , an AB:: store . nice place , eating place there . That was a real And for a time we had no eating place and now we �3 have a sort of a one down town here which ah , doesn ' t stay open very regularly and isn ' t patronized much. And there is really no ah , r esemblance whatsoever t o this town as I lrn.ew it when I was growing up . rooted here and loved it very much. Tennessee . My And my family was always very ah , deep- And there was a very_close tie in with Greenville , f amily had come from there . Jr ., the president ' s son . Ah , one of my aunts married Andrew Johnson And the Greenville people patronized Hot Springs and for many years they drove a railroad train over here and had an annual picnic long after Hot Springs .l:ad faded away as being ah , a real tourist center . They still came and ah , had their picnic down in the old hotel grounds like they had always done . then that passed interval . It wasn ' t done anymore . And So I , I can ' t ah , I can ' t see that we have much hope for tourism as we have knownit , but there may come a time when this will be a sort of a retirement center . And about the only thing we have to off er now is very lovely soenery , ,very quiet atmosphere , and very nice all- year- round climate . Of course , we don ' t get terribly cold here and ah , our SUilllllers are just as nice with a very cool m ountain night . And yet just ah , when or who we will attract ah , enough of people to change the place drastically , I ' m not sure whather it will talce a long , long time or not . Q. And now can you think of anything that you ' d like to. W ell, ah , you said that you remember some fond stories that your grandparents and your parents told you . Could you start , you :Im.ow , tell ing us some of those about the ah , the old , the tourist business so long ago? A. Well , the tourist business long ago was just possibly , as I remember it , is m uch as stories passed onto me . I must say the greatest number of stories ever passed onto me were the things t hat went on during the civil war because that w growing up , that was still very vital in their minds . had happened a d t here I was The epis odes were things that are two stories of Civil W days . ar And one of them was that ah, my grandmother was living in a little cottage back upon the hill and my grandfather had gone off and he was on the Confederate side and so she was there with the children and she ah , the soldiers were coming . They were on the other side and we had trouble here apparently with what they call bushwackers , deserters anything . the mountains and they simply came in as marauders . They hid ~ut They weren ' t fighting for any in �4 cause. They were, it was just a good chance f or outlaws to express themselves . And so when she heard of them coming , she was really a very gallant lady , and she went out , got an old colored man to help her , and she went out and burned the bridge t hat led over to the hotel . Then , another story is , is when they were they came and they were taking everything they had and she had taken up the floor in the rarlor and had a horse in there that she loved very much . They were going to lead the horse away and she threw her arms around the horse's neck and the man went off with her hanging onto the horse for dear life . And so , the young officer on the Union side said · well , if the lady loves the horse that much , give it back to her . " So , she saved it . Then , this other story they used to tell was that there was a battle f ought down at the Hotel Grand . I guess you ' d call it a squirmish . And the ah , this young Union soldier was was killed and he was fatally wounded and he died in my grandmother ' s arms . They were out trying to help both sides . You were That was the way of war in those days . out killing, but you were you had a heart f or the other ~ide as people , human beings . And so , when he died in her arms , he had lovely golden sort of curls and she cut off some and sent them to his mother . And it was a life-long friendship by way of never meeting but writing back and forth t o each other always . And as far as as tourism was concerned , I think that this description that I have in this article is about the way it was and the way ah, the first way I remember it and I say in here in order to describe the life tl:at centered about the second hotel , we quote from a , of a , from an article written by one of the writers in that the Carolina used to publish. rom t:be pamphlet tl:a t I say although many came for the curative value of the water , many others of tbe South ' s elite came summer after summer to enjoy the gay social life and whether that would be gay social life today I ' m not sure but that was their type of gay social life . And I go on to say mountains has become famous and I can remember the thing that stands out in my mind , something that people loved then and I don ' t know whether they ' d love it now or not and that was t he amateur theatricals . W were al ways having ah , somebody getting up amateur e theatricals to be put on the stage of the ballroom and I can well , the thing I re- �5 member was a man sitting in a chair , ah, smoking his pipe and remembering his former sweetheart . And I can remember that I was with a sweetheart number; number 1 when I was about five years old. W walked out on the stage and stood there. e And of course, he lad what his memories were recited, in some kind of verse that had be en written local . And I can remember all these theatricals, sort of brought in a local picture of life around here . And they used to have people in the hotels that were called the entertainment and they not only ran t he hotel , but they felt responsible f or keeping t he guests very well entertained . And we did have horse- back riding and there were trails around here and there ' s an old road on the mountain back of the cabin I used to live in , that was called Dead Park Road . originallY, I remembered is wide enough for a buggy to go OL And and the people from the motel would be taken out buggy riding up on the mountain and ah , ah around the hotel there were things like ah i g watermelon cuttings where the where they would pick the watermelons in the garden dovm here , put them in a wagon and then the man would ride into the center and then we ' d have a watermelon cutting and all the guests would be there . gether thing . And so it was the type of entertainment t!at would bring the people torather than everybody going out like they do now and doing their -Own It was an era of ah, enjoying social activ planning social activities of rather a grandiose nature, I ' d say . many ideas like The Bapt~st people weren 't really sold over to too I can remember these beautiful evening dresses and they had the dresses had trains on them and there was a loop int~ d of, on the edge of· the dress and the ladies put these over their wrists and that lifts the train and then they waltzed and I was very small and used to sit on the back porch and and look - in at what was going on and I thought that was the most beautiful thing I ' d ever seen, all these ladies holding their running in t he fields with One of the young ladies just asked me if I knew ah could remember any.. of the ah sgrt· of famous people or famous ~ to~me mind is O' Henry , the author . people and the one that stands out in my And he had married a lady from Asheville and he �6 came down here on his second honeymoon because he ' d already been married before . And I remember , I don ' t know i f this is out of place, but I remember they served mint julips up at my house and there were quite a l arge crowd that came and participated in this event and so I got to see the real live O' Henry . And we had good friends that came but as f or really famous people, I ' m not sure that I can remember . Let me think i f I can remember anybody . W had a great many New Orlean ' s e people-the far south people because I guess t hey found this so delightful for summer . Q. You don ' t have to tell us about famous people but any certain people that you you know were good, just real good friends with or anything like that . A. You see , I was pretty young and ah , so my friends were some of the children down at the hotel and I missed that very much after there was no more hotel because that ' s where I f ound all my playmates . It ' s been s o many years ago I ' m not sure I can remember anybody by name particularly but I do remember the that people talked about later by the family. And they had , evidently , become close personal friends and they were mostly far south people and I wish I could could remember better , but you don ' t remember too well when you ' re my age . Q. Tell us about ah the first inn and then when the second one was built , and each of the owners - ah, how the ownership passed down through the generations . A. The f irst that made this part of the country famous was t he era of the drovers . Do you know anything about the drovers? W ell, ah , by way of the Buncombe turnpike which went through here , M adison County, through Hot Springs , they used to drive the there were pigs and turkeys and those were the two most famous things that you heard of being driven through down to Charleston , South Carolina , down t o the coast and probably in between . And inns were spotted all through Madison County because of the drovers and you see that was a profitable thing . they also had to provide feed for the animals . turkeys and pigs . The man stayed in the inn and I ' m sure they had cattle as well as And t he local farmers could sell the grain . So , I guess I would say that probably Madison County was as prosperous in the drovers era as it was , ha s ever been since . And the first inn that I ever heard of was run by the Neilsons . And I knew descendents of that fami l y w were G ho arretts and the one of the Garretts �7 that I knew real well was named William Neilson so, I ' m certain of the tie in there . And that was not on the present site of the present hotel , it was down the river a ways on the other side . And then the first hotel that I ever knew of here , whether it was built by the Pattons or bought by the Pattons , I ' m not certain because I ' ve seen it written both ways . And all of our history , even though it had been written down in late years , perhaps isn ' t absolutely authentic as to ownership , but we always seemed to be quite proud of the fact that the man who later became the Civil War governor of North Carolina , Governor Vance, was a clerk at our hotel . And the first hotel was the one that my grandfather bought and he bought it from the Pattons . And I never have known why but the deed says "the Pattons and Grand Master Rascal ," and what a grand master was I ' ve never known . So , the days when my grandfather first bought it was just prior to the Civil War and so after the Civil War was when its greatest development came . And then he came back after the Civil W and ar hotel and a resort of those days . the sta e coach line . South Carolina . , opened up the hotel as a resort So , his chief interest then was the hotel and And he ran a stagecoach from Greenville , Tennessee to Greenville , Of course, it didn ' t carry many passengers at one time and the most famous stories that have passed around the ·family about the stagecoach were that they didn't keep up the road very well and it was on the old Buncombe Turnpike which WBnt down by the river . It was full of great big boulders and they ' d have floods and nobody would fix up the road and it was pretty rough on the passengers and the stagecoach. And so , Grandfather mounted the stagecoach one day with an axe in his hand and he cut down the toll gate because he said he had paid enough tolls for them not to use any of it to fix up the road . So , then , there became an agreement whereby he kept up the road and didn ' t have to pay any toll. And his main interest was getting a railroad through here and it took a good many years to get it through Hot Springs . It came as far as W olf Creek , Tennessee and then they ' d have to come on from here by a horse-drawn vehicle . And it was very rough terrain we had that made it difficult to put a railroad all the way through here . But , about the late 18e0 1 s , and I have the exact date somewhere because somewhere I rave a letter that he wrote from Greenville , s .c. to my grandmother and he says that last night they got the railroad through which �8 means he ' d been to a meeting . And so, of course , it was the days of the railroad when people tourists moved by railroad that was my early childhood that was most impressive to me and I can remember looking out of the windows with my aunt and seeing how many people got off the afternoon train and the Negro porter would have the ,q ags up in the car and the people all came strolling down the main road under the trees to the hotel . It was a very long walk , but you might say they arrived by railroad and then by f oot . grea t deal . And that didn ' t last for much of my life , but it impressed me a And I spent a great deal of my lif'e around the hotel because my grand- parents lived there and of course it was wonderful for a child to be able to go into his grandfather ' s hotel dining room and eat whatever you wanted to . And we had a great long family table and this old Nigger man tl:nt we all called Uncle Simon waited on tables and Uncle Simon always went around behind us fussing about what we did and didn ' t eat . And so , but , all of this was way back in my early childhood and I didn ' t get very much of it before VAVI came along and that was the end of that . The present building t hat we have down that we have down here now the present brick building has never been used except temporarily as a small inn which was never. r.un very long by anybody and it ' s n ever been very successf ul . center came t o i ts end wi th WWI . To me, t he Hot Spr ings as a tourist It might have gone on a little while longer had the building not burned in t he 1920 1 s , but my thought is that it would have terminat ed anyway because lifestyles were changing • Automobiles were coming in and I n ever considered it at all the same t ype of tourist resort when the automobiles came and the boarding "houses and the motels . didn ' t even have bathrooms in them . Of course , t he f irst tourist cabins , they They were just little well , The firs t ones I remember , it was just a little log building , but suprisingly enough people traveled in those days and they weren ' t v ery particular about it and then of course , motels became j ust like expensive hotels . To give you a little of t he history of the place , now this i.s. not authentic history , this is as I got i t from my family . The Indians used to meet here to use the water . It was a meeting place of various tribes of Indians . And they were discovered , we ' ve a lways been told , and then the story is of t wo men , the scouts , who were watching �9 for the Indians and they were had gone on out around . a~ad to see if there were any Indians This was during the time when I guess they had squirmishes with Indians , and they discovered them near Hot Springs . But , it had been known , as far as I ' ve always been told , by the Indians long , long before that and I wouldn ' t doubt at all but what it had not been used by the Indians becau~ e even though they say now days that you can get in the bathtub and get just as much benefit , I ' ve always felt that mineral water of the type we !ave is really very superior . than Hot Springs , Arkansas . the hotel was going on . It was always rated even better W certainly saw some very interesting cures here when e I well remember a family friend that they lifted off the train on a stretcher and he took the baths and before he left at the end of that summer he danced in the ballroom . And he became a lifelong family friend and would come back and visit us even when there was no longer a hotel here . are curative values I can assure you . And so , there And my family , my mother and my aunt always felt that whatever you had , if you ' d just go down and take a bath and drink the mineral water there you ' d be fixed up fine and so the two things the things they emphasized then were the curative values and then they went in big for the type of entertainment that people liked then and enjoyed . The widows were not too terribly though they were much more so than they are now , but they developed a scheme by which in the month of February , I think from Christmas on , it was probably pretty slow . : You see , the fall was very lonely here . It would sort of linger along til perhaps November and I guess they didn ' t mind the slow season in there when they didn ' t have people . And then they ' d contacted some people in Akron , Ohio and rented them an entire wing of the hotel . filled it themselves with their friends . Thereby , they In February was mild then and the early winter was the part that was cold and so they used to help out that way . you would get picked up because April was quite a warm spring month . And by March So , I don ' t think they had to struggle through too many winter mont hs and then I imagine that they had a few people that came and went regularly such as the Drummins who used to go through the country the country store and they always had to put up some- where , And Hot Springs had a good m any boarding houses back in those days for people �10 that did not stay at the hotel . And right back of this house , right over there there ' s a famous old boarding house run by Lancefords . in the summertime even after the days of the hotels . accomodations all over town . then . And ah , it used to fill up And there were boarding house And Hot Springs doesn ' t look at all now what it looked So that main street ' s become acrossed with bridges of that was where people lived and the stores and the post offices and whatever other business buildings like the livery stable which every town had one then . t'ha railroad station when I was growing up . Ah , somewhere in my possessions and I ' m not sure where right now because things are kind of mixed up , I rave a little book that you just called a brochure that were mailed out and I would say the greatest advertisement was word of mouth and I think people became more familiar with a place because somebody went there that liked it . . \ Ah , because people didn ' t rave radios , t . v . s , and barely even newspaper advertisements . M ost advertising , I ' d say the greatest, by word of mouth . Ah , well , the efforts were made you see by the building of superior court here . And all along , through the year , as I described to you a little bit ago , in those days . there were Trat was And I remember we didn ' t have a lot of automobiles travelling here as early as they did other places because our roads weren ' t very good around here . I know when I learned to drive a car in 1925 there wasn ' t a paved road around here anywhere. The road over this mountain that you came over was practically single-laned and a dirt road and the first road I remember didn ' t even have It was just a dusty road . rock The dust maybe hid you in the summertime . So, the efforts have been here to encourage tourists , but the ah , things just haven ' t worked out . If we had maintained a steady tourist travel it wa.ild have certainly required ah, very good roads that we don 't have because when the railroad travel went out entirely at all. Ah , people moved only by automobiles , tourist travel . can understand what I thought it was . And you �11 No, I don ' t remember . Ah , of course, I was very young during the days of the hotel and it was all very glamorous to me and I thought it was lovely . And I ah, thought it was quite beautifully run because my grandfather ran it I guess . And it was a tie-in with the family and this house that we ' re sitting in right now was built by my grandfather in 1868 and it has been completely remodelled . But , you can look over there and see a picture of it as it was . And as it was, as I lived in it as a child and in fact until not too many years ago before it was remodelled like it is now . It was my grandfather ' s home . My mother was born here . And ah , it has never been, except for rented for a short period of ti.me a boarding house while the family lived in Asheville a little while during the days of southern company, the Civil W aftermath and it ' s always been mentioned ar by the family . It was never owned by anyone else . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Efird, Jane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Dotterer, Elizabeth Interview Date 7/17/1975 Location The location of the interview. Hot Springs, NC Number of pages 11 pages Date digitized 9/16/2014 File size 8.11MB Checksum alphanumeric code 8df455f77e2183ea64b8c3af6459e207 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape300_ElizabethDotterer_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Dotterer [July 17, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Efird, Jane Dotterer, Elizabeth Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Hot Springs (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Community life--North Carolina--Hot Springs--History--20th century--Anecdotes Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Dotterer talks about growing up in Hot Springs, North Carolina, where many tourists would come and stay over the summer. She explains: "It was the type of tourism we no longer have. You spent the entire summer." After the outbreak of WWII the nature of tourism changed. Dotterer reflects fondly on working at the hotels and spending time with the summer tourists. She explains that the opening of the I-40 highways had a big impact on tourism as well. Andrew Johnson Jr Asheville automobiles Buncombe Turnpike cars Civil War drovers Elizabeth Dotterer formal balls German band German prisoners Greenville Hampton Cottage Hot Springs hotel entertainment Hotel Grand Madison County N.C. Mountain Fog Hotel Native Americans railroad Tennessee tourist business https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3452c0315f054b3e81d01edac3cda72c.pdf 4c7fcd0af7786bcaa3d72357db39392f PDF Text Text AOHP #66 Page 1 This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Lee Greene for the Appalachian Oral History Project, by Donna Clawson, at Route 2, Boone, on June 11, 1973. QUESTION: Mrs. Greene, I'll start with you. ANSWER: Where were you born? (Mrs. G) You mean the county? Q: Yes, the county or the area. A": (Ms. G) I was born in Watauga County, or Meat Camp. Q: What was the year? A: (Ms. G) 1908. Q: What about you, Mr. Greene? A: (Mr. G) Well, I was born in 1904. Q: Were you born in this county? A: (Mr. G) Watauga County, yes. this house. Just a little ways right here from That little house that used to stand out here where that other house was. Q: Who were your parents? A: (Mr. G) Henry Greene and Lura. Q: Who were your parents, Mrs. Greene? A: (Ms. G) Pink Jones and Laura Jones. Q: Had your parents always lived in this county? A: (Mr. G) Yes. Q: They were born in this county? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, Watauga County. Q: What about your parents? A: (Ms. G) They were too. Q: Mrs. Greene, I'll talk to you a while then. did you have? Both of them. How many years did you go? A: (Ms. G) I just went to the seventh grade. Q: How many months out of the year did you go? What kind of schooling �AOHP #66 Page 2 A: (Ms. G) Six. Q: Was it a one-room schoolhouse? A: (Ms. G) Yes. Q: How many teachers did you have? A: (Ms. G) Just one teacher, every year. Q: The same teacher the whole time? A: (Ms. G) No, a different one each year. Q: What kind of thing did you study in school? A: (Ms. G) Let's see. Arithmetic, that's what they called it back then. English, spelling, history, geography, sanitation, and, one other thing. I can't think of the name of the book. (Mr. G) Grammar? (Ms. G) No. Q: That's about the same thing they teach now. and sisters? What about brothers How many did you have? A: (Ms. G) I had one brother and four sisters. Q: What were their n^^es? A: (Ms. G) Well, Docia's my oldest sister. And Allie Barnes. You want their full names? Q: Yes, that'll be fine. A: (Ms. G) Docia Suddreth, Allie Brown, Bessie Greene, Verlee Brown, and Stanford Jones. Q: Were they all older than you, or were you in the middle? A: (Ms. G) I was next to the youngest. Q: Mr. Greene, how much schooling did you have? A: (Mr. G) I guess I got through maybe what they call the fifth grade. Q: How many months out of the year did you go? A: (Mr. G) When first I went it was just three months. There were four older than me. up to six months. Q: Did you study about the same things Mrs. Greene did? A: (Mr. G) About the same things. Then they got ( �AOHP #66 Page 3 Q: A: What about teachers, did you have one each year? (Mr. G) They teached all the grades that was teached, they didn't grade them like they do now. went along. Passed them through their books as they Didn't grade them like they do now. (Ms. G) We never had a report card or anything like that. Q: You just went through? A: (Ms. G) Yeah, they just passed you. Q: Do you remember the name of the school you went to? A: (Mr. G) Huh? Q: What was the name of the school? A: (Mr. G) Uh, Sands. Q: What was yours? A: (Ms. G) I went to three different schools. I guess you know where that is, up Meat Camp. Springs. I went to Chestnut Grove. And then went to Maple It was only two schools, yeah. Q: Well, what year did y'all get married? A: (Ms. G) 1927. Q: Did you live around here then? A: (Ms. G) We lived in PErkinsville. Q: How long did you live there? A: (Ms. G) Three years. Q: Then did you move back up here? A: (Ms. G) Yeah, we moved down here where Herbert Foster lives. And then we moved from there, down there on the creek, you know where J. D. Greene owns that little house below the creek. And then we moved from there to here. Q: How many children do you have? A: (Ms.G) Two. Q: Mr. Greene, what kind of occupations have you had, what kind of jobs? A: (Mr. G) Farming the most of the time, up till the last twenty-two years. Two sons. Then I been working in produce ever since. �AOHP #66 Page 4 Q: Can you remember a time when you had hard time getting a job? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, they wasn't no jobs, back then 'cept only farming. I never had no hard time gettin' a job. I could get work to do. body wanted any work done, if I had time to do it. / then, you didnjt get too much done away from home. If any- If you tried to farm (Ms. G) They weren't no plants you know, or anything like that to work at. Q: They've not been around here too long. A: (Ms. G) No, they haven't. Q: What kind of crops did you raise? A: (Mr. G) Raised corn, potatoes, rye, wheat, buckwheat. Q: Did you sell any of them or did you just use them? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, sold some fo 'em. his tax. A fellow had to sell enough to pay That's the only way we had of paying the tax. Q: Is that all you ever had to pay? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, that's about all. Had to buy a little sugar and coffee once in while. Q: Goodness, that's not like it is today. What about livestock, did you have livestock? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, kept one cow most of the time. two. (Ms. G) Three, we had three cows. Part of the time I had (Mr. G) Three here one time, didn't we. Q: What about churches in this area, what kinds of churches have been around here? A: The denominations and all. (Mr. G) Well, the Methodist and the Baptist have been around the longest, I guess. Q: Which church did the most people belong to? A: (Mr. G) I'm not sure I could tell you about that. Baptist, most of 'em. Q: I suppose the Right through this area, anyway. Were the churches a lot different then from what they are now? �AOHP #66 Page 5 A: (Mr. G) Yeah, they's a whole lot different. People didn't try to dress up so fine like they do anymore, when they went to church. Q: I guess not. A: (Ms. G) Didn't have it to dress in. Q: What other ways have the churches changed? A: (Ms. G) You answer that. (Mr. G) What? Q: What other ways have the churches changed? A: (Mr. G) Well, these trends. . . trying to build bigger churches. And having less attendance, I think, than they used to have. Q: That's right. A: (Mr. G) That's the way I think they've changed. Q: That's true. A: (Mr. G) From an old feller by the name of Sands, I guess what give it the Sands name. Q: How did this community get its name? (ms. G) That's what I've heard. Can you remember any of the decision makers in this community in the past years? A: (Mr. G) I can't think of any of them. Q: I guess its mostly just been involved in the county, iL-/ rather than so much of a separate community. A: (Mr. G) Yeah. Q: Has the community changed a lot? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, right smart. Q: What about the population of the community? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, more. Q: Are either of you interested in politics? A: (Mr. G) Interested in politics? Q: Yes. A: (Mr. G) Yeah, I've always been interested. Q: Can you remember any special elections? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, all of 'em. People don't visit nigh like they used to. Is it more? �AOHP #66 Page 6 Q: Oh, really? A: Yeah! Q: Did you get out and politic? A: (Mr. G) No, I didn't politic but I always tried to get over there and cast my vote. Q: Just kept up with 'em, huh? A: (Mr. G) Yeah. to go vote. (Ms. G) We've always just been interested enough (Mr. G) No, I ain't never took no part in the local affairs much. Q: Well, voting shows a big interest. How did most of the people around here vote? A: (Mr. G) Well, I guess 'at most of 'em, biggest majority of 'em was Republicans — Q: A: in this county. How do you think politics have changed over the years? , (Mr. G) I think its got rotten, that's how. (Ms. G) You shouldn't 'a said that. Q: No, that's fine. I've heard a lot 'a people say that. just about agree with you, too. A: I think I How have the politics changed? (Mr. G) Used to, the candidates would debate, ya know, at some certain place and speak against one another, but they don't do that no more. It's all on television, or not no speaking a 'tall, or maybe have a few gettogethers somewhere, where the parties met. An' when they debated aginst one another, an' face to face in politics it 'uz even more interesting than it is now. Q: I bet it was. A: (Mr. G) They'd get so mad they could kill one another when they get up to speak at one another. (Ms. G) I can remember going to hear people speak with my daddy when I was just litt^g, An ' he'd want to go hear somebody speak that was on his side, ya know. night and he'd take us children and go. They'd usually speak at �AOHP #66 Page 7 Q: Well, did they ever get in real heated arguments? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, they'd get in some purty hot 'uns, sometimes. Q: What about the crowd, did they get mad, too? A: (Mr. G) No, the crowd didn't seem to worry much. think so. I can't remember anybody getting too mad. probably riled up on a few of 'em in the crowd. that 'ud give us any trouble. (Mrs. G) I don't (Mr. G) Course it (Ms. G) Wasn't nothing (Mr. G) No trouble, whatever. I never did hear of ..having no trouble Q: That's unusual. At least now it seems unusual. How did people get around, back when you were growing up? A: (Mr. G) We walked, wherever we went. or a wagon. We went in a horse and buggy, My father bought an old steer wagon. (Ms. G) My daddy had a steer, yoke 'a steers that I remember we rode to church in. You know what a steer is. Q: Yeah. Did you ever walk pretty long distances? A: (Mr. G) Yeah. Q: How long did it take ya to do that? A: (Mr. G) Not too long. We'd go five or six miles. Back then when I'se young I could walk purty good. Q: Where did you have to walk to ? A: Yeah, ya had to walk to town when ya went to town. three miles, ya know. Did you, like walk to town much? That 'uz about That 'uz just a short distance, back then. (Ms.G) Nobody didn't mind walking to town, back then. (Mr. G) Never thought nothing about it. (Ms. G) When my daddy moved down here, ya know, where Wilson Brown lives, we moved down there, and I'se eleven years old when he moved from Meat Camp down there. And all of us walked back up to Meat Camp to church. Q: Well, that seems like a long way now. I guess people have gotten lazy. A: (Ms. G) And they'd be running a revival meeting, ya know, at night, and we'd all fall in, ya know, and get ready in time to go to church at night. �AOHP #66 Page 8 (Mr. G) People back then when they had produce to sell they hauled it to Lenoir and sold it. On a wagon, and team. Q: How long did that take ya? A: (Mr. G) Take 'em three or four days to go from thefeto Lenoir and back. (ms. G) My brother used to run a steer wagon for hauling produce. Took a long time to go with a yoke 'a steers down there. Q: I guess it did. A: (Mr. G) Back then nobody 'uz in no big hurry. They'j^meet up with somebody, they'd stand and talk for an hour or two an1 now they won't hardly speak howdy to ya. Q: That's the way it goes. It does seem to be that way. You'd \k with people having it easier getti to spend with people. A: (Mr. G) It looks like it. But they hain't, they've got to go. (Ms. G) Looks like when you can go so much quicker that you'd have more time. (Mr. G) Everythings speeded up the past few years. Q: Yeah, I've seen it speed up just as long as I've been alive. A: (Mr. G) Yeah, you've seen it speeding up, all the way up. (Ms.G) I know we lived on Meat Camp one time. They'uz a having a revival meeting, ya know, an' they had it in the afternoons and the evenings. An 1 I can remember walking and going with Momma, and we went across the where Mr. Ira Brown used to live, the Dr. Harmon place, ya know, and come on across that way. And I can remember, as we went back, ya know in the fall of the year it began to get dark so early. And we got down to where Aunt Mary Jones used to live and it was agettin dark there, and we had to go through the dark from there on home. Q: That'd be something today, wouldn't it. Where did most of the roads and the railroads run around here? A: (Mr. G) Well, there wasn't no railroads here, till Tweetsie come into Boone and I don't remember what year that was. it never did come back in. It washed it out in "40 and �AOHP #66 Q: Where were most of the i(a:ojds and things? A: (Mr. G) Page 9 Only railroad was Todd, I guess. gauge running into Boone. place. And that little narrow (Ms. G) But the roads now aren't in the same (Mr. G) And then they built a road that goes up here to Rich Mountair to get logs out. And then went on that narrow gauge over to Shulls Mills. See, they had a sawmill over there. up Howard's Creek, was there. (Ms. G) There wasn't much of a road (Mr. G) No, not much of one at that time. (Ms. G) Then they built a good road up there. We can remember it but I don't remember what year it was. Q: What about some of the other roads, like Meat Camp Read? Was it a pretty good road? A: (Mr. G) No, rough road, and trees so low you couldn't get around them. (Ms. G) They wasn't many roads that was even just gravelled, much that you could travel. Q: Of course, I guess, without having cars it didn't make much difference what the roads were like, did it? A: (Mr. G) No, they got to improving roads when cars begun to come into this country. Got to hard-surfacing 'em then. (Ms. G) This road that goes around down here, ya know, this old road, I can remember when they's a-building that, before I was married. And then out there at Sands, right below, or about even with that house there of ( ? Mr.) Cook's, there's a big mud hole there, ya know, and couldn't nobody get through it. car had tried to get through there. And one There wasn't but a very few, ya know. They would get stuc^r And they's always somebody coming out to my Dad's to get Stanford and Daddy to take their yoke of steer and they'd have to go pull those cars out of the mudhole. Q: When did the first cars come in? saw your first car? Can you remember the year you �AOHP #66 Page 10 A: (Mr.G) (Ms.G) (Mr.G) (Ms.G) seeing. then? I don't remember the exact year. I don't believe I do remember the year. It would 'a been about '15, I guess. But I remember who was driving the first one that I remember And I was scared of it. Do you know I was scared of a car back We lived on Meat Camp, that was before we moved doen here where Daddy lived. And we had come to Mr. Dan Cook's to the store, when he had an old storehouse - - -out ttere. Well, where was it that stood? (Mr.G) Right down this side of where J. B."s got# his store. (Ms.G) No, that first one that was doen here beside- - - (Mr.G) That first one stood right down this side right below the old Ingram house down there. Alongside of the road. (Ms.G) Oh, I thought you said below the road. (Mr.G) Well, 'tis, down this-a-way. (Ms.G) Well, it was on the other side of the road. be, you're right. Yeah, it would That one down there. . . . (Mr.G) He moved out right down and went up by George Hayes', you know. When that storehouse stood there. (Ms.G) You know where Oscar Hayes lives, don't you? the George Hayes place. left on around there. can you remember it? Well that was And the road went way around that hill, to the And right there below where that old Ingram house, It's not been tore down long. Q: Yeah, I think I remember it. A: (Ms.G) It's right there below where Charles Hodges, uh,. . . (Mr.G) . . .slaughter - place is at... (Ms.G) Well, I don't know what I was going to tell you before that. Q: You were talking about the car, the first one you saw. A: (Ms.G) Yeah, that car. We'd been over there to that store, and we went back around that road, ya know, and we went, walking up around up through that bottom above where Oscar Hayes lives. And went on up the road there a little piece,...we got over in Tommy Hayes' field and walked on �AOHP # 66 that hill to where the Howard Foster house is. Page 11 You know, where Howard Foster used to live, you know, over near Meat Camp. Who is it lives there now, Mr. Shook? (Mr.G) Yeah. (Ms.G) We'd go right across that hill, ya know. We heard this car a-coming before we got to where we always crawled under this wire fence, ya know, where we'd come up there above Oscar Hayes1. And I can remember how scared we was and we run ourselves near to death because we's so afraid of that car. And we wanted to get there and crawl under that fence and get in that field before that car passed us. it. And Henry Miller was driving Henry Miller had bought him a car back then. And that's the first car I can remember seeing. Q: I bet that would have been scary. A: (Ms.G) We was so afraid of that car. . . . because we had never seen one. And we's afraid to be out in the road for it to pass us. Q: Can you remember the first car you saw? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, I believe it was along back about '14 or '15. Around that year. (Ms.G) It was . . . now we moved from over there in 1918. And it was just a few years before that becuase I was a purty goog-sized Qirl. And I was eleven years old when we moved there. I guess he's about right. About 1914 or '15. Q: What did you think of the first car you saw? A: (Mr.G) Well I thought it was a kinda funny looking outfit. Q: I guess they did look strange at first. A: (Mr.G) Yeah, but I soon got used to 'em. Q: What was the first car you ever had? A: (Mr.G) Ah, the first 'un I ever owned was a '21 Ford, I believe. Q: You remember when you got that? A: (Mr.G) I got it off 'a Larry Lane. �AOHP #66 Page 12 (Ms.G) She said when. (Mr.G) Oh, no, I don't remember exactly when. It musta' been about 1920, something along that. Q: Did you enjoy riding around in the car? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, I liked to drive it. T-Model Ford's what it was. One seat. Q: Did you like it better than walking, and horse 'n buggy 'n all that? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, Yeah I liked it better 'n that. where quicker and back. Q: any- Go further. What about some of the crafts in the area? the curing, and the weaving. A: You could Like the soapmaking, Have you done much of that? (Ms.G) I never did do any weaving. to make all the soap that I used. I've made a lot of Soap. I used Me and my mother used to make soap. She done a lot 'a spinning and carding, but she never did any weaving. Q: Did you ever learn to do any of the spinning? A: (Ms.G) No, I never did any spinning. Q: I've heard it's pretty hard to do. A: (Ms.G) It was for me. I never did try, though, very much. put us to doing other things since she did all that. Mother She never did teach us. (Mr.G) Yeah, people used to save all their ashes where they burnt the wood to make lye to make soap out of. Set off a hollow tree, make gums, pour the ashes in 'em. (Ms.G) Set 'em up on a big rock, let the rock be a little slant. They'd pour water down in those ashes and set a crock down under there, my mother did, to catch the drippings. (Mr.G) They'd chisel 'em out a little channel, you know, that'd run into the vessel. Set 'em up there, pour water in 'em to get the lye. (Ms.G) She never did buy canned lye. (Mr.G) Why back then, people was the lyingest things you ever seen. LAUGHTER. �AOHP #66 Page 13 Q: I guess they had to be. A: (Ms.G) My mother made her own vinegar and all that she used in the pickles. She never bought any. Q: Well, I didn't know you could make vinegar. A: (Ms.G) Well, she'd take a bunch of apple peelings. exactly how she made it. How do you do that? I don't know But she'd pour water over that, and let it set 'til it would work, ya know, and then she'd strain it. Just have the liquid part, ya know, and let it sit so much and she skim it. know exactly how she did make it. And, ooh, it was strong, too. Q: I don't But she'd make some of the best vinegar. It'd really pickle things. What about mountain cures, like when somebody got sick, did you have cures for different things? A: (Ms.G) Yes, we had some. Q: What were some of the cures you can remember? A: (Ms.G) Well, back then children had worms and you know they say now they don't have 'em. And Momma would always give garlic, ya know the heads of garlic, or the bulbs, ya know, out of the ground. And she'd beat that up, andy put it on, . . . between a cloth, ya know, and put that on your stomach. And that would cure worms. And then they was an herb that she growed in the garden, she called rue. that was good for worms. I think it was spelled r-u-e. And And she would get that, and beat it up and put it in a cloth, and tie it on the wrist. Q: My goodness, did it work? A: (Ms.G) Yes, it sure did. It helped. a sore throat she made onion poultice. she do? And then she made . . . . for And, let's see now, what else did She took wheat bran, I forget what else she put with it. remember how they fixed that for something? Do you What was that for? (Mr.G) I don't know. (Ms.G) I remember she she used to take wheat bran and make some kind of cure. She did all kinds of things like that. �AOHP #66 Page 14 We ' s never ever took to a doctor, or sent for a doctor or anything. Anytime, except when the flu WcvS around so bad, in 1918. That was the only we ever had a doctor at my house that I remember. Q: Who was your doctor? A: (Ms.G) Uh, yes, Stanford did freeze his feet one time in the winter- time. They come big old holes in his heels, ya know. in there. Big old holes, back And, old Dr. J. B. Hagaman lived at Todd at that time. he come on horseback. And we'd send for him and he'd come over nearly every night. . . ride his horse over there to Meat Camp. doctored Stanford's feet. when we had the flu. And And then Dr. Bingham come. He come and Dr. Bob Bingham, And Bessie had pneumonia when we had the flu. Dr. Jones, J. W. Jones, I believe. And He was at Boone, and he come to see her a time or two when she had pneumonia. (Mr.G) And they all traveled on horseback then. (Ms.G) Yeah, they had to ride horse back that far. make all kinds of tea/ in the wintertime. whether we's sick or not. And Momma would She made us drink it all along She'd made boneset tea, and oh how bitter it was. And when we had whooping cough she made chestnut leaf tea and I've drunk quarts and quarts of that. Shti. made peneroil tea out of this big red. . . .no, that's horseleaf that has big red top, but they was a kind of stuff called peneroil, wasn't they? (Mr.G) Uhmm - uh. (Ms.G) She gathered that and dried it to make tea out of. she made tea out of that. And catnip, All kinds of different things. Q: Well what was all that for? A: (Mr.G) Spicewood, sassafras (Ms.G) Well now they said the spice wood was to thin your blood. How they knew that it was too thick, I don't know that. But they'd make us drink it and I guess it didn't hurt us. (Mr.G) They give you spicewood tea to break you out with the measles. �AOHP #66 Page 15 And they used a lot of these hot teas, now, for measles. they had to do for measles, back then, ya know. tea to get you broke out. Just use some of the hot They used spicewood tea for measles and they used the boneset tea for measles, too. things. That was all And it was good for coughs and different And they used polecat oil and groundhog oil for croupe. Just think of them terrible, horrible things you had to take back then. And Momma would get (Mr.G) How'd you like to be greased with polecat oil? Q: I don't think I'd like that at all. A: (Ms.G) If you take the croupe, or a real deep cold, ya know, ooh, that stinking stuff, they'd grease your chest with that, and take a real flannel cloth, ya know. They'd heat it, ya know, and put that thing on your chest right here, ya know. It'd break up pneumonia. (Mr.G) People'd take a fit now if they had to be greased with it, wouldn't they? (Ms.G) I heard Ern Brown one time, tell about breaking up pneumonia with those things. (Ms.G). . . . she'd get a great big bottle, it'd hold about a quart I guess. And she would put sulfur in that, and fill it full of water, and she'd shake that up, and make us drink that for something. terrible. Ooh, it was And then she would get horseradish roots and cut that up and put it in water, and make us drink the liquid off of that. Something to keep us from being sick, I don't know. Q: Did it keep you pretty healthy? A: (Ms.G) Yeah, we's never sick much. (Mr.G) Yeah, they's never sick. Healthiest set of Joneses I ever seen. Q: I guess they musta' worked, then. A: (Ms.G) You know, them old remedies was good. an awful bad sore throat, I'se nearly grown. I can remember having And she put that onion poultice on my throat, I couldn't hardly talk and it cured me. ... �AOHP #66 Page 16 Oh, that old soggy-wet, nasty thing on my throat, it felt terrible. them onions, shooool And these old hen-an-chickens, ya know, like grows out in the yard, hens an things, ya know. them or not. And I'll show them to ya. I don't know if you've ever seen But they would get that, and would get a cloth and beat 'em up, and then they'd squeeze that out in a spoon, and put a drop or two of that in your ears for earache. cure the earache. And that'd sure See, all this stuff grew for a purpose. Back then people knew what it was for and they used it for things like that. (Mr.G) Nobody knows what it's fer anymore. All folks knows now is when a youngun gets sick, take it to the doctor. (Ms.G) Now, what was that sassafras tea for? That was just as red. It made the purtiest little tea you've ever looked at. Now we buy our tea at the store. Q: I guess everybody does. What does sassafras tea taste like? A; (Ms.G) I don't know hardly how to tell ya. (Mr.G) You've eat sassafras candy, hadn't you? Well it tastes a bit like that. (Ms.G) It was good-tasting. wood tea wasn't too bad, either. No, it wadn't a bad taste. This spice- But they'd make it for supper and drink it at the table for supper of the nights. (Mr.G) Ole boneset was the worst tea that 'uz ever made. (Ms.G) Oh, it was bitter. (Mr.G) I've a mind itis. That must be what quinine's made out of. I know it tastes a lot like quinine. (Ms.G) But that's the way they doctored back then. Never bought no medicines Q: Well, they were making do with what they had? A: (Ms.G) And there was only one phone in the community as I know of. That was Mr. Dan COok and Miss Bertha. They had a phone, back then. of these old-timey wall kinds, up on the wall. a doctor always had to go there and call. One Anybody wanted to send for �AOHP #66 (Mr.G) Page 17 Andrew Cole used to run a store down there below where Tabernacle was. (Ms.G) Did he have a phone? (Mr.G) No, he didn't have no phone. (Ms.G) Well, I'se talking about the phone. that had a phone. Mr. Cook's the only one Now us a-livin1 plum over on Meat Camp, if we wanted a doctor that was the only way. . . than walking all the way to Boone. course that was quicker But we had to walk plumb out here and back, and Mr. Cook's was a pretty long way. Greene's and Mr. Walter's that goes up to Henry Miller and Etta used to live? lived a way on up in a holler. Ya know that road at John the left there? You know where Well, it 'uz up that road. Now we Turn out into another road, right there you, the road, you went a way on up in the holler, about a mile, . . . (Mr.G) Yeah, a mile, I guess. (Ms.G) From up in there, that was a long ways to walk. Q: Can either of you remember anything about any outlaws or badmen around here? A: (Mr.G) Ah, they wasn't many of them. boys that was out through here. I've heard about them Allen Shot up the court that time. (Ms.G) I've heard older people than I am talk about the Allen boys that up the court. (Mr.G) I've heard it said that old man Ed Miller brought 'em through this country, Q: helping 'em get away. I don't believe I've heard anything about that. Do you know what year that was? A: (Mr.G) Uh-uh, I don't know. (Ms.G) No, see we just heard talk of that and didn't ask about the year. �AOHP #66 Q: Page 18 Can you remember any folktales that you heard your parents or grandparents tell? Or legends? A: (Ms.G) I don't know. I can't remember none. Q: What about things like planting in a certain sign? Do you believe in that? A: (Mr.G) Old people, all of 'em used that. (Ms.G) Kinda go bit it yet, some. (Mr.G) I believe in it myself, but I didn't plant in them signs. .. . I agree that the moon has a whole lot to do with it. need to talk to Raleigh Williams. You He'd give ya something on this sign business. Q: Can y'all remember much about the Depression? Did it affect you much? A: (Mr.G) Well, about all it was about that Depression was just big men and all got their money outa the banks and let 'em go broke and nobody could get no money to do nothing with and there wadn't nothing to do. And stuff got so cheap ya could just buy a whole lot of stuff for nothing, about it. (Ms.G) But you couldn't get that little bit of money that it took to buy it with as cheap as it was. You just couldn't get that money. (Mr.G) You couldn't pay a debt. Q: Prices were real low then, but you just couldn't get the money? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, back then you could buy a pair of overalls for seventy- five cents. (Ms.G) Now you spend five. (Mr.G) Six. Q: Where were you living at the start of the Drpression? A: (Ms.G) We lived at P rkinsville, didn't we? (Mr.G) Yeah. Q: Were you living on a farm? �AOHP #66 Page 19 A: (Mr.G) Un-uh. Rented farm. Q: Did you raise everything you needed? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, raised plenty of grain, stuff like that. And managed to get hold of enough money to buy what we had to outa' the store. But we didn't have much. (Ms.G) We didn't raise wheat, and make out own flour. We had to buy flour. (Mr.G) Yes, we did raise some wheat when I lived at Perkinses, Raised wheat 'n rye. Buckwheat. (Ms.G) Yeah, but we didn't make all our bread out of it. I remember us buying some flour. with that Truck, you 'Cause Don't you remember when you hauled off bought some flour? But he could get a hundred pounds for a dollar seventy-five, wasn't it? (Mr.G) Yeah, a hundred pounds of flour fer a dollar and seventy-five cents. (Ms.G) And now, ten pounds cost almost that. Not quite that much, but it costs a dollar thirty-five, I think for just ten pounds. And he'd get a hundred pounds of flour for a dollar seventy-five. Q: How old were your children during the Depression? A: (Mr.G) We just had one. (Ms.G) G. L. was born in '28. Q: How did the Depression change working conditions and getting a job? Was it hard to find a job? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, I'd say it was. Wadn't no jobs to get much. (Ms.G) Well, everybody just farmed, you know. Just weren't any jobs much to get. (Mr.G) And it hurt the people that Depression year hurt the people like Cleveland and places like that hurt worse than it did around here. Cause the people there ya know had jobs. jobs. And it got hard for them to get �AOHP #66 Page 20 (Ms.G) And we've heard a little talk about in Detroit, Michigan, having an effect on the people up there. and had nothing much to live on. got out can And I heard one man say that this man and sold, uh, can something what was it? They got out of work, ya know, what was it? Can openers or You heard him tell it. (Mr.G) I don't know if I did. I forgot about it. (Ms.G) Seem^like it was just can-openers. Just any little thing. He'd get out on the street and try to sell that to make a little money, after he got out of a job, ya know, his work shut do^/n. (Mr.G) Yeah, get anything ya could, and get out and sell it. any way in the world to make a penny. Just Course there wasn't as much stealing and bank-robbing and rogueing a going on today as there is. Q: Did you ever hear of any of the government projects, like WPA & CCC? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, they had some projects like that back then. They didn't amount to much, I don't think. Q: Do you remember when the banks closed? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, they closed when, uh, Roosevelt took office. 'em in the next day or two after he took office. He closed Ordered all banks closed. (Ms.G) I remember hearing Mr. Charlie Hodge say that he acted the quickest of any president we'd ever had. (Mr.G) Then he got 'em a foothold or something some way, and everything began to pick up a little again. a whole lot too. The^he got us in war and that helped And then we've stayed in war ever since. since that day, since war was declared in '40. Still a fightin' some of 'em now. Never been out Never been out of war yet. Over there in Laos, they're fightin1, I reckon some of the Americans is bombing yet. Q: Did the community change very much during the Depression? businesses, and the churches, and the schools? Like the �AOHP #66 A: Page 21 (Mr.G) No, un-uh. (Ms.G) I don't think they's any difference in the schools and the churches. (Mr.G) They've changed a lot more since the Depression than they had before. (Ms.G) Than they did during the Depression, I'd say. Q: Who was hurt worst by the Depression? A: (Ms.G) I don't really know, do you? (Mr.G) Well, I guess the businessman was hurt the worst. they did get all the money Even if . What caused the Depression was everybody drawing their money out of the bank. go broke 'n they started drawing their money out. This fellows was gonna That's what caused it. And then they wouldn't pass no bills or nothing that Hoover wanted to pass so they couldn't do any better. lican president. It was a Democrat congress agin a Repub- They held him down. (MS.G) If a poor man was in debt, he was really hurt. you couldn't get money enough to pay it. Because There just wasn't any money. (Mr.G) Yeah, if a man owed anything A man that didn't owe nothing boys he 'uz in the best shape he'd ever been. Everything 'uz more on equalization then than it's ever been in my lifetime. (Ms.G) But you just could not get any money. Q: Was there anything that was good about the Depression days? A: (Ms.G) Well, I guess there was some. (Mr.G) What 'cha sold brought just as much according as what 'cha had to buy. It don't do it anymore. What 'cha buy is more than what 'cha sell. Now they're fussing about such high prices of beef 'n stuff like that. And now's the only time the farmers have had a chance 'at raise cattle to make a penny 'o money. �AOHP #66 Q: That's right. It's unfair to them. Page 22 I've heard a lot of people say that families were closer during the Depression, and the communities were closer. A: Do you think that's true. (Mr,G) They was. A whole lot closer than they 'air today. (Ms.G) Yeah, that's true. They'd work ten whole hours for a dollar back then and get a dollar a day. buy much with or to pay. They just wouldn't get enough money to Just didn't get much money. Q: What do you like best about the way life is today? A: (Mr.G) Eatin' 'n sleepin'. Q: Well you've been able to do that all along, haven't you? A: (Mr.G) Ah, yeah, I've done more sleepin' before. I can't sleep good no more. Q: Is there any thing you like about what life is like now? A: (Mr.G) Well, we didn't have no electric lights, or no power, or electricity of no kine. to pay. Course now we got plenty of it hooked up and have Nose agin the grindstone to pay our bills. (Ms.G) Well, I know that still we enjoy the lights. (Mr.G) We enjoy the little things we have now. (Ms.G) And now we have a lot more conveniences than we used to have. We have a electric stove, and refrigerator. used to have. We have all that that we didn't That saves a lot of time, and it's nice. (Mr.G) Used to have to do the washin; boil the clothes out in a ole pot and bring 'em up on a rock 'n beat the dirt out of 'em with a stick. Scrub it out with ya fists. Lot more conveniences now. (Ms.G) All the modern conveniences. I like that part about it. I have an automatic washer and that's easier. Now Used to have to scrub 'em by hand. (Mr.G) They's a awful sight o' lazy women, though. Q: Do you think it's because of all the conveniences? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, that's what caused a whole lot of it. �AOHP #66 (Ms.G) That's what he says. Q: Page23 I guess that's the truth. You'd think they'd have more time to visit their neighbors then, wouldn't you? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, but they don't. visit their neighbors. They have to watch TV I reckon, can't Some ole story on TV they want to see. (Ms.G) Well, that's another convenience that we use. Q: What did you do before you had a television? I guess you got to visit your neighbors a lot more then, didn't you? A: (Ms.G) Well, I don't know that we did. (Mr.G) All that time she has now to watch television she had to work than and get her work all done. (Ms.G) It took longer to get "cha work done. And you had to work so much harder you were so tired at night that we always went to bed at nine o'clock. tired. Never stayed up later than that, cause everybody was so You'd go to bed at nine o'clock 'n have to get up "n get a lot done ready to start on a day's work.the next morning. You just didn't have too much time. (Mr.G) You go anywhere to work, you had to be at work seven o'clock. Work till six then of the evenin'. Get in ten hours. (Ms.G) We had to get up earlier then than we do now. And had to work a lot harder. (Mr.G) Boy, I think today, take it all the way around, is a lot better time than it used to be. Q: It sure has changed a lot. A: (Mr.G) Well, I think people's got less care for one another, got twice, three times as little care for one another as they had back then. (Ms.G) Well, seems like we did get our work done more back then in time to visit some durin' the day or through the week or somethin1. anymore we hardly ever go off the place. And �AOHP #66 Page 24 (Mr,G) If I go a-fishin anymore I just have to leave something undone 'n go on. Cause there's always somethin' to do. Back then I'd have plenty o 1 time to go a-fishin' a day out of a week if I wanted to. Course I wadn't trying to work on the job then. I'se working the farm. (Ms.G) Well, if you work at home you can quit anytime you want to and go some place if you want to ro go a-fishin1. ya just don't have the time. But when you work on a job Ya come in late, and its time to milk, and time you eat supper, it's eight o'clock time we eat supper a lot o' nights. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mr. & Mrs. Lee Greene, June 11, 1973 Description An account of the resource Lee Greene was born in Watauga County, North Carolina in 1904 and farmed all his life. Mrs. Greene was born in Meat Camp, North Carolina. Mr. and Mrs. Greene talk about their education in a one-room schoolhouse. Mr. Greene talks about farming and the changes he has seen in the community, specifically in politics. Mrs. Greene explains how to make soap and homemade remedies. Both recall their methods of transportation as children and the transition of using cars. Mr. and Mrs. Greene also recollect memories of the Great Depression. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clawson, Donna Lee, Mr. and Mrs. Greene Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 24 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape66_Mr&MrsLeeGreene_1973_06_11M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-11 Boone cars Chestnut Grove Great Depression homemade remedies Lee Greene Lenoir Maple Springs Meat Camp Perkinsville Politics railroad Sassafras Tea schoolhouse soap Watauga County N.C. https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1c04874866d2f6313dada5f54c78381b.pdf e9fdcfa2c1181ce72c540cb6fcb66ae6 PDF Text Text -p I—j •H *—1 £ !H O 43 •H T: CIj -p 0 ^H CLj •H ^Til T",' rH _d :ti e d CU S-Hl _f_i 0 r.Q * h^j ,—\: •~-J o £_^ PH r*i SH O -P GJ S O ^ (i) -^ 'H. • o G.' 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'H—• ""•te P-J ^ i£l ^g CTJ •H l> (Tj i-A GO 43 Q; ,-VH _C TJ •H rir^ &•! c\ o r-ti ft JU --j O t^ Qsj t-J & \\) ! -H cA i—i •3 *-j O.1 r-0 •rH i—t JH -p 0) ^H ^ CU tu) cti PL, ""^ . t_0 ' , " P^i .4...) S~i ri" -^H S "G d r-J r-^ 03 rQ ft f>? JD .O cO O •,2 , H 0 lij jj ;y* «C| ^-XJJ r\^ »% fH '.Ti O S-t -P~ Cn -O SH (D -j~3 ,-TJ VJ b o * £ —j K ! i-- _c; • ^-H T.1 CD ^ o •H SH •CD -P T" cti f.'} C? �Page Q: Were .your chicken;:; principlly fcr egg production? A: X e a h , just for eggs. Q: Did yen. have any boilers or roaster;;? A: No, we just carried a few layers mostly then. Took, one ana ate ore occasionally, jutvt more for laying, Q: Were you cows principlly .fcr meat or for milk? A: T b e y ' s for milk., most alt for milk and calves. Q: ¥ our hogs. W e ' d kill a b e e f , bat prin^:iplly Raise the calves, you k n o w , and sell them. You mentioned, you had hogs. f a r m , o.r did you let A: of them. Dio yon keep them on the them run f r ^ c ? No we kept them up here in pens. We never did let them run. out r u o h We just .kept three or lour for our killing, you know what 1 .moan. A: us abont t h a t ? A: Well, I remember about Easter, UL- boys would get out, and :.:i;ea.L the egg,., ana hirie them in the hay stack' a.nd w e ' d have around, 1 guesG, half a. bushel of Easter egg,-3 that w e ' d g e t . gach as that, 1 remember- t h a t mighty good. Q: Did you color egge? A: Yeah, colored eggs, bcilea egge, fried eggs, I looked forwarn to "Easter. Q: What aid you use to color the eggs? A: Well, we u e u a J l v got. gras:- and onion hull;: to make our green- Brovaa, �Page 3 now that was alder bark. Ana blue, I forget what we made the blue out o.f. We used to make up a coloring out of stuff like that you know and color. Get a pretty good, color too. Mrs. A: A: And then we'd get cloth, you know,, that would fade... ...put that around them and that there would make a pretty color. Q: How was Christmas? A: Well, my Christmas was gun shooting, gun mostly. fellow to hunt, shoot guns. you know, have a big time. Mrs. A: Coming down A: I was a powerful We'd usually get out a crowd of us hunting, Looked forward to old Santy when we was young. the chimney. Never did get to see him come down the chimney, and I finally dec idea there wasn't any Santy Glaus. $: Did he bring you anything? A: Yeah, he'd usually bring us some toys. back them days, and a bucket of candy. And my A stick of candy mostly, stepmother'd make a whole lot of little cookies, you know, like animals and such as that. We thought that was a big Christmas, you know, then. Mrs. A: A: You got to make fire balls and throw them. Yeah, get to make fire balls. A crowd of us get out 'with kerosene, roll them up about as big as of your fist, and soak them in kerosene oil. Get us on some gloves and we'd throw them as high as they coula. had a big time such as that. Boy, we Shooting firecrackers, roman candles, skyrocket; Q: Were there any celebrations of the Fourth of July around here? A: No, they never did pay much attention back then to the Fourth of July. About like any other day. They went about, everybody. They worked on the Fourth of July just same as they would the third. usually celebrate, you know, on the Fourth of July. But now, they A lot of people. �Q: How w'i s the work on the farm done princlplly, like yc^r plowing, your cultivating? A: Plowed it kith a yoke of cattle. Kce it kith hoet;. Cultivate, maybe with one steer, single steer, you know, tangle yoke. Mrs. A: A: Thought you bad some horses? No, he never did Keep much. a yoke cattle. Always had When they'd got 30 big and old, he'd nell them off, and get iiim a. young one, and I'd break Q: He liked a yoke o.i' cattle. them in for bin. Were mot:t of the crops that you grew for your owr; use or aid you eeil Gome? A: No, we j u s t a b o u t made enough for buy a. little. Q: curcelves. Now ana tiv-n have bc^ D o n ' t reckon ive ever sold i'ny. How omen y t u f f were you able to produce on your farm and how K U C H ,:;tu.ff did you have to go to the store and buy? A: We produced might near to everything e,xcept sugar salt, eoaa a r x " . . . . Mra.A: Coffee. A: 'Coffee and stuff like that, We rna.de about everything V;H oat back then, e.xcept something like that. MrB.A: Had their own cows and milk, you know, eniekene, egg:;. Had their own hogs. A: They depended on making their living and laying it up. their living up in the summer to o:.o them that w i n t e r . get out i:n'id w o r k or e] ;:,p they cut They d i d n ' t have to fi.rewood or something, and eut firewood. Plenty of timber, you knov:. a big tree, une it for firewood. They laid lined f j I'eplace:-, A man could get out ana cut 1 guens that tree would now bring two or t h r e e hundred d e J l a r a . Q: How did they keep the food.? you t;aid they laid up in tine '..aiiruaei1. �What would they ri.r-:e i.n the winter. A: How' aid th.ey preserve Well, corn we had a big crib, you know. get dry, and put it :in tlier^. bar1"!-Is arid s t u f f ' , ry- j . Meat, y o u ' d salt it layer of s a l t . it? W e ' a shuck our corn when it Buckwheat, i t ' d ary out and w e ' d j u s t put in I t ' d keep it right, on, I r e c k o n . away in a. tog meat box you knew. 1 d o n ' t knove. A layer of meat, •-> Had enough meat there to last no telling how long. Now i t ' s go to the store to get a little piece. Q: Y e a h , and t h a t ' s a b o u t all you get, a little piece. A: A little piece tor a lot of money. A: HOK as-out the fruits and vegetables? (to Mrs. A) You rtdghf be able to tell me about that. fD's.A: A: About drying. he know;s more about if t h a n I do. h e ' s the one t h a t . . . . They canned oher.ries, si.raivberries, apples, stuff like that. usually has plenty of that to do us. Raised ca,ne. T~e.y Make cane molasses, PI-.T, them in a b.i g barrel, you iino^. Mrs.A: A: you? Had bees, drawed them. Put honey in cans. The "way we done that molasses. You never seen a molasses barrel, did I t ' s a b o u t like a 60 gallon oil barrel. A wooden barrel. And t h e r e ' s a big, they called it a bung hols:, you know about the middle of i t . get a funnel and pour the moiass.es down, in there and he had him pieces of timber, He'd a conple lie wanted to get molasses, h e ' d just roll that <iown to where t h e y ' d come out t h e r e , when you wanted to get you out some to e a t . Q: How did you make molasses? A: You raised cane, you stip it, a cane mill, ana boil the juice down. and top it. Haul it in, srind it in 1 guess i t ' d take about five gallon o f ' j u i c e i,o make a gallon of moia.sees, something like that.. a whole lot of juice, you k n o w . Grind if But tk^y made in a cane mill and make s �wa ber coming out all the time. Q: You never did, see any made, did y o n ? I ' v r seen films of people making it, I ' v e never seen It in p e r s o n . Did you all make maple syrup. A: Tap trees and make maple syrup and tree sugar. Tap ane. boil the wattr down like you. do the other, only not as big of vessels. as RID oh water as yoa do with cane juice. You. d o n ' t get Takes about a bushel of water to make about a quart of molasses of the sugar tree water. you never seen any made of tree molasses, 1 guess? Did, you ever see - Sugar, maple syrup? Well, we caLleo it t r e e molasses. Q: Was the tre<-s sugar that you m a d e . . . . A: We boiled it on a little more, a little longer , than when it got down to molasses. Pour it put , i t in, you know. out in a vessel, grease your vessel yoi s i^anf t.o Make a cake, a dish or something, tea cup or anything, pint, -4 little butter it and, grease. while i t ' s colling, a ca l -e of tree sugar. Pour it out in there hot. You stir i t Ano, then when if got cool, if was hard you Know. Just It was good t o o . Q: 'Was it A: Used what? Q: Did they use the tree sugar more than white sugar? A: N o , they used more white siigar then tree sugar a lot. sugar. used a lot instead of regular white sugar? Brown and whits Used a right smart amount of brown sugar back then. Q: Did you ever do any sawmilling? A: Not very much. Not enough to say anything. Worked around i.ner: just a little b i t , packing lumber or something, but t h a t ' s about a l l . Q: You said earlier that your f a t h e r owned, a store. How big of a store to.^8 it? A: Oh, 1 I w a s n ' t a very big store. Just a little eld country store. �: aitirq iT5T.fi ' noa SDETT UT s o u a j e i T T p jo wi y S p^D99r,i /su'i j;r C - q. ,api;noM o.i^qjj *q.rioq *.:JJOK s,A'r3'n K JOT noA" ^.rtq pYno« opdosd * U T AOUOUI no/ §UTJQ pynoM TT'KK sny 3sr jno/I SuTjq ppno.w a'eiTX '$OQ ^^BUI ppnco noj[ "qSTt.! ;;"C.« q r PTJB iiraop pc V �A: Some of them had the money ana some had chickens, eggs and butter and. stuff like that, you see. North You could- he could just turn that ever at Wilkesboro when he went after a wagon load of groceries. needed a lot of dry a tuff like that you know. If he There wasn't, very much money. There van a few, pretty well to do old farmers that had plenty of money. Took in a little money. Of course, little money then would be a whole lot of money now. Q: What size were the bjg farms around here? If you were going to categorize the farms, about what siae would be a big farm? A: Let's see. Well, somewhere - I don't know of any farms that you would call a farm much less than 60 acres to 230 to JOO. •were mighty scattered through, here back then. timber. These houses Plenty of land, plenty of And they finally got to using the timber, you know. hauling it to Shounels. 25 miles and a railroad run in there to Shounels, termessee, and over to Mountain City. got to getting better all the time. till they just got rich. Sawing it and And some got to sawmilling, and they And them fellows kept on sawmilling Two of my brothers, I guess they're worth about as much as anybody in the county, Mike and Glenn. They started out saw- milling and kept on till they got to bringing a lot of money and then they put them in a flooring plant. West Jefferson. Oak floring plant, make flooring here at And they made a lot of money, clear money there at that. Finally sold that out. Q: what was sawmilling like back then? They didn't hsve electricity tc A: No, steam boilsrs and sawmills - the mill part was a lot like a - the power was steam boilefr fired by wood you know. using gas motors. Then they got to That's about what they use now for saw milling; a gas m.ctcj �Q: Was sawrnilling a pretty hard business? Was it, harde>" t h a n farming .in this area? A: Pretty hard job that savmifling. Pretty hard, work, Q: Wore there any times, back whan you were growing up that -- ..Like then- was bad growing season and the farmer..,. A: They wag a f^w kind of droughts, you know, wet seasons, but they didrd make as much as some seasons as others. Good and bad, sort of like it is now. Q: Were there times when you were really digging deep and ui.gel aa as your t>sft for lack of food? A: No, they might nearly had enough bo live or; the year round, of course, people now days, children, they wouldn't know what to think if you set them down to buckwheat cakes and white gravy for breakf a si/, would they? Molasses and. berries, stuff like that. Q: 'I've eaten it many a time, A: Hove you? 0• \ai. v,-.- --, -. >- i.,-,^i. A: Such s...-, that is w;'iai we had back then. bread, corn bread. Mrs.A.: You're Rye bread, little wheat Two or three kinds of bread we had back then. going to make it sound piti.ful. A: flnh? Q: Sounds good, Mre.A: You:1 re going to make it sound pitiful if you don't hush. A: No, at wa0 pretty good times then. Didn't have to buy much, Q: Did your mother have a wood stove back: then? A: ieah, she had a wood stove. Q: Hid she ever have to cock in the fire place any? �Pase 1C A: Well, we had a fireplace. She'd cook beans on the fire. Had a big skillet, and she'd bake , a cake of corn bread, and if she cd.dn't want to fire up the stove and, the skillet on the hearth, you know. Guess you've seen that, haven't you, or have you? Q: Yeah. A: My, we got a daughter down here West Jefferson. They've got a den there and she got her big skillet and she still - in winter time, when she's got ,-• fire in the aen fireplace, she'll bake her a big cai<e of corn breao. and set her sweet milk out a little while before if there's ice and cold and much ice. Mrs.A: A: money. Take it out of the refrigerator. Boy, she likes sorriotning like that. And tney're worth a lot of They just like that. Q: "What sort of things did your mother bake? Do you remember? A: Biscuits, corn bread, pancakes, rye bread, spple pies, cakes, stuff like that. Q: Did she like tha wood stove better than - I don't guess she ever did have an electric 31.eve? A: No, there wasn't no electric stoves back then. Q: Did she like cooking on the wood stove better than en the,... A: Fireplace? Yeah, they thought they'a up in the upper ten if they had a cook stove. They didn't all have cookstoves. But they finally kept on getting them in until they - got them a second hsnd one maybe. And when '.idle to buy them a new one, they'd buy an old stove. Q: Didn't have refrigerators back then, did you? A: No, we had a spring trough. Q: Like that one in yonder? A: Like one in yonder. spring, wsliea up of rocks. Not exactly like that one. We'd just have a I/fall ourselves a spring trough, ana fix that where it would go right on down to trie spring in there. Floor was up nere �en i'"'.?. JT'.r,. ' l • ': .'j'••'••> ' r ' TODr'C ' 0. •"•'"HI • i ^.r""-3 "' o3 ~ ' : i"-'i ';', q r yjo';. *j;'irio/' 't.s;q' :;&« s.n u;iqw oq. o3 oq nscn af. •q r,;5A'Bq I 'OK i,;-00j, Ao J-.J.A.O ;fci30 suoog oy PBOJ sryq. aesc; JMAS no/ SAHI, — ;:r>-Bg_ o']. r ;«oS 4.BUCJ. p^oj ^ua uo ^OT?g •a^Tioi^Toot.pR /.jqanoo F- ur '^ T^PI^a i ["ooqo!; oq o§ TIG./' prp o.ia'm "IT r f n a '>|3feM t UT ;3J'9n -q_T qorun q.,ur.-[-n.oM j p"[QD ;; GM qj 'jjnq_y pus :<5 -aaoog :V :5 �co m o -p a .o -\H '-—. Q, P-, •H C «-l -P o< c? C31 C3> �A: Oil, we had. a big time at them. have edeggi-r dialogee, all too; Black our facee Ilk- -I gg': r e , and kindo of things ...... they ' a cone fron far ana > ear they r a j'Lu>t nil that hor.ee th-y-.ro eeactiy ehee. we- ha'! our red, e Heel, er Q: What «ero eomo of the game;-- you played? A: Well, tad d play,, at jehool, w o ! d play jail, bane - haee-baj.i, ctnf.r' .Li »:•.:> t h a t . •-•-• ••oiui ; .S , you l::iow. tag, ti \\Ufi Just s5.n-3« aro'^i'id the i.'0;.a;s: thai, wa.;_; ono .you ci;;--,, iod Dron tho ha.aK.ei'ohi;:l' btT.:'i.nd oorrkvbody and then pull o'j.t •'•nd ;v;o:.i had to beat then tu get yoar place back vhore yen ;;;ta:r:i>x. .,;.•;!•? way We : \ a> <;•'.; th.. t ,r\ieht spiavt. Q: :f c:ah , wo a:e:e; tu play that at achcol. A: N", th.ey \va,e:d I ev,vr any -larieee back bhet- ai;, I rea7ie;nber. Mra.i.A: Were there ever ;-e;y Th*-y jc-j''j I:. ad d,i ri'ereat parties an^.i .110 dancing. A: Q: What did. you. do whea you were- courting? A: Oe, we w o n t . . . . Mi-,s.A: A: 'whena/ did yen ge oe late;: T h a t ' d bo '-, long story. W- d i d n ' t halve no h o r a e a.nd buggy bhen much. Tn<- r oonu eg .;..V:n ha: a. noiee:- end. buggy, ana they' ; takt; tneii- gird oat ofr a ridf'.-. W e ' d t k.3et, a creed o," ee ;i'.iet get together, you e v a:.iv, g...:t a r o u n d , go p.Lecee. maydi':, up on M o u a t a i a ; p].:;,,.:r te look o f t . bee;; thoro havoeH you? thinik net-hing -jbout it Wore!- than Bloving Rod', Abo;,t chree ridlo valk. Walk:i:j| Yeu' • W o ' d .d.;.oe w a l k ta-.-r: 3ed - big crowd get together - eix or seven of u.e, you Q: Die you eaye pierei.ee? A: Pi.crd.ee, yeah, Q.: Were there ;•, l o t of aerieiuei ty a c i d viii t .:; b;,.;k. ei-e? bao picnice, had a oi g t-imi^ at th;.K. �Pasx 1: A: ik j ah, they had big revival aeeting:; 1 • the c h u f c h . and held LL about a week, sometimes Uvo weeks. going to meetings. About one a year Had " pretty &.i;:' ii;;ie W e ' d court a right much then, gel eg back and f o r t h to Church. Q: Hov; often did you hav> your regular sivoday oervicco? Or we.r'f: the services every sunday? A: No. Evecj thiru sunday, I think uar time COKO. about four I'diurche;;}. The pr-yn^h^i 1 .had About i.;very third -unday h(.;'d get a r c v u n n ',o • : • . . Had ;.;un.T:.y cchool every auruiay. Mrs.A: A: Preachers had to come from Wf-ad:, Jrl'foraoii. Y'_ : ah. Some of bhem walked dow;i .from t o w n up here. and bag^iHO. Q: A: Lt don't uardly Bound like it Some had horde,;:. could be true, doe.-; it? What type o p preacher,;; ^ere they? Some; oi' tiit:;T!.i pretty good ane. uorric of them 1 i v o u l d n ' t w a l k fron: h(-•!.'e iji.; 'til-'; ytor;-- 1 « Q: Whet type of churchee v/ere in thir; a r e a ? A: Mothod:] ;.;t,, Baptitrt j/jn^t]y. hei'f: .'.'Ijf.vut Mr's.A: A: Thero was a Holineo;.; ehiiref, back r ver : rti.lle, righi, bhi;; f j i d n o.l"' that KChoolhoabe I v/at t e J J . i r i g al.'./i.rh. Then '.heec- a a e n ' t a.oy Holineee a.roar.d h e r e . . , . Not Mien. P r e s b y t e r i j i i , Presbyterian back the;;. Keet'ly Baptist and Metj:od;.d. back t h e n . KIT;.A: have you been ovor through Mill Creek? Q: N o t yet. A: No, it Did th<r railroad affect the farmero around here pretty iiiuch IK j.ped oi.it a rigat n i u a r t . croet? ties right ii; here, bwo or th.ree miles. and all. nioet anywhere. They - see they could haul the They haa a ,.witch, riiayht:,, uvery They could switch off a car, It helped out. load a car with croesties Extract, tan b a r k , it was a right smart :;oo:a back whea the; rallroa.,.! corne through here. Helped t h e fanners out. Everybod �Page 15 merchants and everything. People began to sort of get on their feet and make a, little jnoney then5 Q: Did it come down this way any way? I know it come through Boone, but.,,, A; Yeah, this one come right through here. Abington to West Jefferson. It come from West Jefferson, That^'s the old railroad grade right over there. From the intersection there, well, down here it leaves Walter Baldwinvs this side of Walterl's, it leaves the railroad. And part of the way, it's an the old railroad grade and up the river from Fleetwood to Todd. You never been up there have you? Q: Not yet, A: That road, all the way from Fleetwood down here to Todd's on the old railroad grade. the old depot. Elkland, they called it Elkland back then. They dug it out. Of course they could haul it to town instead, They got trucks and pretty good roads. took it out, you know. Depot's there yet, It didn't affect them bad when they Six miles, five or six from here to West Jefferson. And they could take it up from there to Abij/igton? I don*t if they will or not. It ..run from Boone now to, let!ls see, it ran from Boone to Elizabethton, didn't it? I rode on that road. Oi Up around through Linville, A; iVe come around there on the train from Boone, out in there around Shell Creek, Elizabethton. I used to barber in Elizabethton. I could get to Boone very good, but you had to catch a ride from there down here. There wasn't near as many cars running as there is nowadays, you know, Q: Do you remember when you saw you first automobile? A.' Yeah, I remember when I seen the first one ever delivered around Boone, A lawyer lived, Tom Bowie, West Jefferson, He drove it up there and boy it looked like he's liable to run over everybody in the road. That's the �Page 16 first one I had was a T model ford. We kept one of them a right smart little bit. 0: Were there any gas stations around here then? A: Well, not close. About, West Jefferson is about the closest one for a:long time, Mrs.A A lot of difference with that store a being over there, and things settled around here and there's nobody but us, one house up above us. A' Now my daddy owned from up here, about half way to the intersection, not quite half way, you know where the intersection is at Buvall-'s. My daddy and his brother owned from down here,, about cross this ridge here. He owned land from down there up to John and Duvall's, mountain to the top of this. The top of that And made a right smart of land, you know. I've tried to count up hov many families lived on the two farms of my daddy and Uncle..,. By the way, he jugt had one boy. got two hundred and fifty acres, He had two girls and he hoped they wouldn't sell any as long as they lived. And they've got it yet. Baldwin. He died My first cousin did. 'My uncle died back several years ago and my aunts, and that left it to him. you know. I guess he He kept that land and said he wasn't never going to sell any, long as he lived. about two or three years ago, He kept that land. He Inherited it I worked a lot for him, painting - building houses. And died at Well, they just about owned all of Baldwin, what you'd call Baldwin. Just two brothers. Then it was cut up and divided up with their children. My daddy gave me a batch of land over here to build on, my other brother back up here, my sister back up toward Baldwin, Just scattered around. They's houses3 there's no telling, I guess there's fifteen houses now where there's one then, That's the way time changes, in the next seventy five years? Reckon therelll be that much change �Page 17 Q; I don't know. It can't change - if it changes that much people aren't going to have much, more than the land the house is on. How did the people have to change their way of life during the depression? A: Well, they had to go, most of them had soap houses, you know, and they'd depend on that you know. The soap house, we never did - here in the country, it was as bad as it was away in these big towns, you know. We depended on the farm, you know, Mrs,A3 We had our own milk? had our own cheese3 eggs and all. Mad our own meat, A: Like I feay3 1 was a painting, And about me and another or two was the only painters there was in the county, and fellows that had a little money, why they could hire to have it done, you know, the depression, It just happened so. I had it pretty good back in If I hadn't been a painter, I'd of had a heck of a time, Q; What were the wages an hour? A; About a dollar and a half an hour were good wages for back then. I said a dollar and a half an hour - dollar and a half a day, Mrs,A; I thought you's wrong. A: Yeah, we've not been a getting two or three dollars an hour here but just a few years for painting, you know. They thought that was pretty good. Of course, our boy makes more than that. He contracts, works about half a dozen men, you know. Runs everything, Q; Were there any government programs around here during the depression? A: Let's see, I reckon the NYA work here. Q: I've heard of the WA. A', WPA and NYA. Know anything about that? I was the foreman of the NYA. weeks,, about twenty the next two weeks. About twenty boys for two It give them half time. And give about twenty two weeks and then they'd lay off, and let the other twenty come on. �Page 18 About forty, I think, Keeping time. It was pretty good back then. Better than when you don*t mind mucli in the country such as that, $50 a month for my job. 1 just drawed I thought I was flying then. Mrs.As We was married millionaires. Q; What did these work projects do? As Remodel school houses around where they needed some remodeling, set out trees one day and another. Dig wells. tables or something Itke that, you know, inside in the winter time. Make, in bad weather, weM make Get in the dry, you know, working Let them make stuff like that, you know. Now there was one of these boys there in the NYA work,, he was starting out just they'd take them up to eighteen years old - but wasn't eighteen. was about sixteen. And one of the boys now is the biggest contractor in Ashe County, was under me when he was working working with me on the NYA,. what he was doing. the others. I guess he under me back when he was James Vannoy , he was a good one though. He knew I could ask him to come if I wasnvt there looking after He was a big man there. My boy over there said he had $20,000 worth of work contracted, painting now for the contractor James 'Vannoy. But the government, I believe he said he asked the other day, told me had $40,000 worth of painting contracted right now. That's different from back when we''re talking about old times, i§n'>t it? Qj What was the biggest job that you ever contracted? A; A girl's dormitory at Boone, painted that, contracted. I. contracted that. You know, old gir!T's dormitory. I That *'s about as big a one as I ever I worked there a long time painting in Boone, at the Paint there in the summer time when they's going and coming. college. We'd just have to stop painting when they*s changing classes, you know, going through the halls. Waited until they got settled down before we could go to work, to work at Boone. I like We was working at Boone when they built this road round �Page 19 to Deep Gap( you knov\m there to B,oone., you know/s 42.1, You know^ where that^s at? out here at -Deep Gap, don'-t you? WeM go this- road all the, time, It seems to me lifce. it would be farther around this wayf hut it ^s twenty one mile through by Todd, and nineteen around here by Deep Gap. Of course, Boone is in this way a heap more south than you would think about, But when we'd get done painting, we come this other road. They didn'vt have it finished up yet, h.ard surfaced, hut they had the gravel on it - packing it down. Q; Boy, I thought th,at was a good road, You mentioned earlier about people having to gather roots and all. Did they gather more during the depression? A" Yeah, I guess there was more gathered roots and herbs hack then than they have at times, Well, they couldn't get money much for that. But they'd take them to the store, buy them something to eat it, you know. The merchants would buy that. Then they ship it, you know, in big., big- Mrs. A: His hohbyfs trapping. 0.; Really? A: Yeah> I like to trap, Caught me four minks back up here in ^ I''s telling you about my cousin's place up here. just last winter. Brought me forty five dollars on them, muskrats, got them down by the river. mighty trapping. I got three minks up there Forty five Three coons and a possum. That's I just like to have something for a hobby, you know. Q; Did they trap a lot back when you were growing up? A' No, Mrs.A; Just mice and rats is all, As Now a mugkrat h^de. would bring about fifteen cents back then. 'not much.. Muskrats. Now they br^ng, let'^s see, T got two and a half Idollars] last winter for mine and some, of BailV, Lot of difference there in the price of stuff like that. �Page 20 Qs Was there much moons-hjnitig going on during this., in this area during the depression? As NPJ they- wasn*vt to© much; thro-ugh, here., 'Mrs,A;' Wasn'-'t any- right through; here. As Right through; ftere, Over in Wtlkes, they're a lot over ±n Wilkes than was over here in Ashe County, Now and then they''d catch, a fellow out about Idlewild or somewhere trying to make him a little bit. Hade a heap of it in pots then, you know. Just make, fix them a pot, cap on that. Put the stuff in there and fix it. They could make some pretty good liquor in pots, big old wash pots, you know, Q! When you were growing up; for recreation, besides the parties and all, in the winter time, did you have sledding parties? A: fun. that. Yeah, we'd ride on the sleds? rabbit hunt. That's about our biggest We'd get outside. A crcowd of boys rabbit hunting or something like Have parties and stuff like that. Q: Ever make snow cream? As Yeah, we made, snow cream. Used to make homemade ice cream. I ordered me a freezer and <- I used to barber a little here and on. About the only one around here that could cut hair. And I'd make a run of ice cream Saturday and they'd gather in here, the children. their hair cut. ice cream. Buy., that and get I'd make a little money both ways, barbering and trading on Worked in Elizabethton, 0; Was there electricity in this area when you were barbering? A: No? we. just had to use these kind you work with your hands. Q; When did electricity first come in? ]*rs,'A3 I can hardly remember ^ it xas cherry time. At' I don^t remember what year it was in, We come back, they had lights in and gone, wtten we got here. �Page 21 Os Was- it after the depression or before? A;' After. Q,j Before world war IX? AT T guess it vaa before world was II. I don^t remember just when they did come around putting lights around and phones, Lights been here longer than the telephone has really.-. Q; What was your first electrical appliance that you bought? A; Let?'s see, I guess a radio and a refrigerator, stuff like that. Electric heater, hot plates, one thing or another Ifjte that, Ch What were some of the radio programs that you listened to? A; We like to watch,, what is his name? Nrs. A', Barker. A; Bob Barker, we like to watch him. Bob... How about Paw and Ma Kettle was on? Dillon, we like to watch him. Did you get that a while back? I always like that. Q; ';At the fair17? Channel 3? A; Yeah, and Bunkers> you watch them? Q; What do you think of Archie Bunker? A; He's hard boiled, ain't he? like tb watch the wrestling. TheyT're pre,tty good. We hardly ever miss old Archie. I I don't get too much from football games. Mrs.As He likes wrestling, I don't. A; You ever watch wrestling? 0; What's you philosophy of life? A; No, I don!lt hava one, Q; What dp As Oh,, I - people goingf looking ahead instead of back, Do you have one? you think insures a long life? Lot''s of exercise, Eat plentyP drink a sight of water. Some future. Not smoke too much. �Page 22 It HI kill you if you don^t watch- out,. Now I:Ve smoked about thirty years,, I guess:, Q! Hadn'M: killed you yet, A3 I don'-'t inhale it. before now, I guess if IM Iteen inhaling it, itM killed me I like a lot of walking, stirring around. -My age, now there*'s not many men at my age T eighty three years old - will be the 29th of this month and that's right here. can do a whole of ditching and Not many men that do hardly anything. beating rock and light work like that. put two ditches in my garden yesterday. I I Went through it? got wet and had to cut two. Q; Do you remember the flood of '40? A; Yeah, boy, good. Q; How was it in this area? A; Well, hit pretty dad. other bridges. Was this area hit pretty bad? It washed out a lot of railroad bridges and Got up down there, just below that pot down there in the yard, And this times it got just to the pot there about. That's worse than the '40 flood. 1:00 O'clock when we got up. This last one, you know? It come nearly to the porch that night, Wife happened to get up and look out there. Well ., the creek's up too, and I didn't think much about it being up past those little pines down there. them, pines or right around, it. I got up and looked, and it was way up on I couldfve- jumped off the porch in the edge of There's water from here to that station, that sounded just like a river, Nearly went the basement over yonder. there. It scared me kinda nice. up to Greer's", know where, years. That, nearly seeped in that door I said, vGet your things on. We're going TBey live up a little higher land than we''s on. it % going. I didn't For i;t to be higher than iM^ver seen it in sixty It washed a let of land away back then. Lot of houses. �Page 23 Mrs,A3 Wasted people, a.ways A; It w,ash>d a store, of fter^ away from Todd, is? Tltey- Had a store up th:e,ret went down. YOU knoy wh;ere Todd And it wash;ed it way - store, goods and all And juat a'b'ove. you know, that other creek runs up from the Mrs.A; Now that was HO, A- HO? river. It was HO, railroad down here to Todd. QJ '-& ^ that was back when they'-s building that •! '^16 - I Believe when it was built, Do you remember any Bad men around here. Were there any sheriffs or outlaws? A; Ho there wasn''t very many through here as I can remember. Do you? [to his wife]. around. I guess take it on the whole, there *'s Better folk in and There wasn't many of them, of course. There*s so many more now that, there's more robbing and, everything like that now-a-days than there was them, Of course there's twenty people to one then anyway. Can't hardly judge it that way. But there's hardly ever a bank robbed and. things like that back then. 0; Were there a lot of people that were hurt around here, when the. banks closed during the depression? A: Oh, not very much I reckon. in the banks I guess. There wasn't too many that had money People that did have it, kept it hid under a bed tick in the stall, a sock or stocking or something. Mrs.A! Maybe you''11 give him an idea where we keep oups. A? do, No, I keep mine in the Northwestern Bank, what little checking I A little in Ashe Savings and Loan, just to drav interest, Thats some of th.e easiest money a man ever made, If 1 had a whole lot of money they-M loan out, and the,, interest counts up, Q: Can you th±nlt of anything else to add about the old days? A: I don't reckon so, Q: We certainly appreciate this. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Edwards, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource James Edwards was born in Bladwin, North Carolina in 1890 where he grew up on a farm. His occupations included painting and carpentry. Mr. Edwards built his own house in 1912 in West Jefferson. Mr. Edwards spends a large portion of the interview talking about growing up on the farm. He also talks about cooking and producing food such as molasses and drying fruits. Mr. Edwards also talks briefly about his mother's cooking and recalls some memories from holidays as a child such as Easter and Christmas. He recollects childhood memories of courting, school, church, the Great Depression, and fun activities children did at his age. He also briefly mentions helping with work projects during the Great Depression. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNeely, Mike Edwards, James Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 23 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape83_JamesEdwards_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. West Jefferson, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Baldwin (Township)--20th century Baldwin (N.C. : Township)--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--Ashe County--20th century Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Ashe County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 1940 flood Baldwin church farming government programs holidays James Edwards James Vannoy maple syrup National Youth Administration North Carolina railroad sawmills schoolhouse trapping Work Projects Association https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b82b7c50d44c31b219ccc5f34376f72c.pdf 2ae609794a1902a7d0c69e515a224fb7 PDF Text Text AOHP This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. San Jones on the Castle Ford Road on June 12, 1973. The interview is with Mike HcNeely. Question: Mr. Jones, would you tell me something about the farm you were born on? Answer: It was sixty-five acres, X think. I've cleared it here the last few years, all ray life nearly. There's about as much land as you can see. Done everything that can be done to get it to work. Qt How many were there in your family? A: Nine. Q: How many brothers and sisters? A: Five girls and four boys. Q: Your dad had a lot of help on that farm, didn't he? A: Yeah, when we got up big enough. Oh we just growed corn, potatoes, mostly theni"—-beans, and peas anything like they do now. little stuff like that. Didn't grow Pumpkins, just grow all the pumpkins and string it and string it up and put it on posts and dry it. Q: Did you have any livestock? A: Yeah, we had hogs, cow or two and hog or two. Chickens, geese, guineas. Q: Were the cows and chickens used for meat, or were they used for milk and eggs? A: No, just milk and eggs mostly. Q: How about your hogs? Did you let them run free or did you keep them in pens? A: No, we had a big lot back then. That's about a acre a lot for *.-• them to run in. Q: I was reading somewhere that some of the farmers let their hogs run wild. A: My dad used to have forty—-one year had forty head. Cholera got �2. amongst them, they was out in the mountains. six. That cholera111 kill them right now. All died but five or I've never seen but one-- I remember seeing them bring one old big hog in. that far, I guess, out of his mouth. His tusks was stuck We had to cover that fellow, you stick your finger, he'd make a dive at you, just like a snake a-grabbing.at you. mouth and all. He'd eat you up. Ah, they had him tied all over, I don't know how in the world they ever, caught him. I was just a little bitty fellow then, but I can remember it. That's been sixty year ago or more. Q: How often did they have a kill? A: Every fall. They'd go out and shoot them down, with old war rifles, anywhere they could find them. Q: How was the meat back then? Was it as good as it is today? A: Well, I don't believe there was as any a fat hog, unless they got fat on mash, they used to get awful fat on mash, Chestnuts and acorns, Lord, there used to be worlds of them. I picked one day, part of a day after a big snow, about ninety pounds of chestnuts. Early fall and they'd been dry, you know, and they wouldn't open up, well they'd open, but they couldn't pull out. bring them out. They'd take damp, you know, to They come a snow, four or five inches, and I was on Buffalo, and it went off a little while and boy, I mean to you, trees, there was two or three growed up in one bunch there. bushel or more under that. I got a half Boy I got all I could carry and I never got started on them. Mrs. J.: Me and my sister used to pick them up, had four or five ^ trees out in the field. went to school. We'd pick them up in the morning before we Sometimes we'd get three bushels. Dad always took produce down around Salisbury and down in there, he'd take them down there and sell them for us. �3. Q: Did you all use them around the house any? A: Mrs. J. (Chestnuts, oh we'd eat all we wanted and sold bushels of them. Mr. J. I used to climb trees to shake them out. Mrs. J. We never did shake them out. We'd just pick them up as we went to school of the morning,when they started falling. Q: Was there a lot of fruit around here--berries? A: Mrs J. Yeah, there used to be all kinds of berries, and apples, and cherries. Mr. J. Anymore you don't get many a meal, once in a while. .. . Now you couldn't get a cherry ham shuck for years around here. Mrs. J. Cherry trees just about all died. And blackberries seem they blight anymore, you can't get none of them. Mr. J. Hadn't picked a blackberry in four or five year, I don't reckon. Mrs.J. Sometimes you can get some wild strawberries if they don't freeze. Lot of time there comes a freeze about the time they're blooming. Don't get to bloom anymore. Q: How about huckleberries? At Mrs. J. Are there any around here? Ah, none to amount to anything, they used to be a good many, back in the mountains, you know. Mr. J. We got, was it ninety-six quarts or something---over a hundred one year? Mrs. J. About ninetyfseven^quarts, but the field that had so many in it's been cleaned off, bulldozed out. Mr. J. Timber them out, killed too lots pine and everything. We found a bush one time, I don't know, I wasn't with them. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Had I went that day or not? Yeah, you was off in the field here picking. And one of my girls found it first, then one of my boys, and she pickftd a gallon bucket! full and he finished his off on one bush. �4. The biggest huckleberries it after that. I always there, you know. Q: I ever seen. I never did see that many on it up when I went over in I think it's dead now, it's been destroyed. How did they used to put up their fruits back in your mother's day? A: Mrs. J. Most the time they just canned them, cooked them and put them in cans, sealed them. Mr. J. Now they made a lot of dried sweets too. Mrs. J. Of course apples, they dried a lot of apples, had dried apples and they'd dry pumpkins and way on back before I ever remember, I was told, my mother told me how they used to dry their blackberries. They dried them. They dried their peanuts, string beans, and they had what they called leather britches. Mr. J. They are good. They'd just seal and dry them and put meat to them, they are good. Q: How much of the crop that was on the farm was sold as produce and how much of it did you use? A: Mr. J. We never sold---growed anything back then when I was a boy. Mrs. J. Since we when,we lived out there, a lot of time,we growed beans. Mr* J. We might have sold a few taters Mrs. J. We growed tobacco to sell and grain, what corn we put out, we'd use it, have our own meal and so forth, take beans to market and tobacco. Mr. J. We used to make seventy-five and seventy-six gallon* of molas- ses here and never sold a one, we eat everyone of them. My dad, after we all left but my youngest brother and he would eat a snuff glass full every morning, you know, for breakfast. (chittling) molasses. That's a half a pint of �5, Q: Did you ever make maple syrup or maple sugar? A: Mr. J. I made a lot of maple sugar, I know how it's made .... Well there was three pots, I think, one was an awful big one. Just out in the woods, had an old pole, and a fork in the pole laid in*it and the lails across it. And we'd give out troughs, wooden troughs, take . peck buckets and go around and dip it out. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Tapped the sugar trees, sugar maples. My dad used a axe, cut a place right handy and hewed out a little old thin strips about that wide, stuck in there and drive it in there, you know, catch your water. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Makes a spout for the sap to run. Sometimes it's clean, sometimes it'd just drip calmly, some of it runs better than others. Mrs. J. Mr. J. That boiling it down though. I've boiled to twelve and one o'clock plenty of time. Get it down to pretty good syrup and bring it in home the next day or night and boil it down to sugar. best syrup I've ever eat. I Hike that syrup, boy it's the If I had a gallon I wouldn't take---wouldn't sell it for a ten dollar bill, it'd cost more than that if a man could get it. Dad made some for years, a little and sold it, they was all gone, I understand it. Q: Did they use the sugar instead of white sugar? A: Mr. J. No, sold it. Q: How much did it bring? & : Mr. J. I forget now. Only good time was forty cents, fifty cents a pound, thirty and forty, well the last he made he sold to a postmaster down there at old Jefferson, he got fifty or sixty cents or more down there. Mrs. J. Now a---white sugar was cheaper than the maple sugar, buy �6. the white, would save money. Mr. J. Now there's a man over there on Buffalo, that would be, he's a doctor, Sam was his name, Sao Perkins, and he tried to run it on yarn strings, you know, to a-.-he had a outlet, you know, little buildings where they bo He'd it down, you know, It wouldn't run off the hill, it'd just run a little, and just drip off, put out a lot of money that-a-way. Then he bought him a five-hundred or a thousand peck buckets and had him a big trough, it was down there, and had a hoXfe bored in there and they'd just carry it and pour it in that trough and it run on down there where they made it, you know, they'd catch it down there (in pots). his buckets. And somebody stole about every one of I know he had five-hundred or more, ten quart buckets, all along the row, somebody finally stole about everyone, if they didn't buckets. Lord, they made hundreds of gallons of syrup, they didn't make sugar, they just made syrup, you know, and sold it. Anybody with any sense a-tall would know that it wouldn't run on yarn strings. Q: How about sawmilling around here? A: Mr. J. That's pretty . . . . I used to sawmill before I come to this country, I ain't done so much since I come, well I've done some too. 1,'ve packed them and I've rolled logs, burnt, cut the timber, ball-bust. Mrs. J. I ain't dome none of that, but I've cut timber. Q: How did you get the trees off the mountain, down to the mill? A: Mr. J. Have a---easiest is by team. Of course, I worked where they had to ball boot them down, off of the in Avery County some too. River. . I've worked That timber'd run eight miles up the Pigeon But that brother seemed he was going broke so bad two of them one of them die"d just a while back. twenty-seven years. (Greg Scott) '.ti "rr-r.-rc r:r":—i,-:': there was I worked for him He sold out, bought them a truck, �7. went to hauling extract. Biggest extract plant that used to be down there at Canton in the world. used Don't know if it's there or not, but be there. Canton is eighteen miles, where our camp is there. Right on the Pigeon River. Q: Did the railroad help any with the sawmilling? A: Mr. J. Yes, it did. They hauled it in on trains, they got to the right place where you loaded it. Yes, they did. And I worked Creek where they hauled it all in for several miles. get it off the mountain and to get on the train cars. But you had to Averaged seventy-five thousand a day. Didn't matter what you taking in on it. That's more than they cut here in two or three months. band mill. That was I handled lumber there twenty-seven feet long, twenty- seven inches wide. Of course, I handled most of the dry lumber, loading cars. Old hemlock logs, splinters sticking out that far. Had to use hand leathers and a apron here. Hand leathers come in on the inside of your hands here. Boy, it'd just ruin you. Mrs. J. Ruin your hands if you got one of them hemlock splinters. Mr. J. They cut little old "lathes," about two to two.and-a.half inches wide and about four foot long, I think. And a eighth to a quarter of an inch thick, and they are the hardest, and they are the hardest things to bail. Boy, that's what they'd give a new man. They test them out on that. Now if he could stand that, he could stand anything. Q: Is this train that came down through Todd the same one that went through Boone and up to Linville? A: Mrs. J. No, this went back into Virginia. Mr. J. I don't know what they've stop that one from running to Ashe County, have they, Jefferson, I don't think. No they had an awful bunch out the other day. There was a string of coal here as �8. long as from here to that garage, just . So big. That's the way they get their coal in down there. They sell it cheaper than they do in Boone, cause they truck it in up there. Mrs. J. I don't know. That train run up here a lot. They hauled a lot of extract back then, stuff like that. Mr. J. Lord, I boarded down in West Jefferson one time a while. helped beat the first rock made them hardtops. I West Jefferson, Old Jefferson, over through there. Mrs.J. After they took this up, the train just run from Abingdon to West Jefferson. Mr. J. They used to come in, a heavy load, there'd be two engines to it, to a load. Why, it'd jar the whole town nearly. It'd just chug-a-chug-&. It would, about jar the town! Mrs. Jones adds something which is inaudible. 0: Did this train down here get washed out with the flood of '40? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. No, it wasn't here then. Taken up way back yonder. It was took up before that time. They discontinued it. See that grade over there is on that grade is on railroad grade there. Prom Todd to Pleetwood. it had a wide road. Best grade in the state, if It is, the longest stretch there in the state of North Carolina. Mrs. J. W«ll, it ain't wide enough for a highway. If it was wider, it'd be a good road. Mr. J. Well, it's just twelve foot down below Brownwood, Fleetwood. You can't hardly pass on it from there. ThereJs places you can't. And it's washed out, fell off like it is right over yonder all along the highway down through there. was a week ago, I reckon. dangerous. I went down there last Friday. I'm afraid to ride on that road much. It It's �9. Q: Was the train in here during the depression, or was it stopped before that too? A: Mr. J. I don't know how long it's been took up. It was way before you and me was married, wasn't it? Yeah, and we've been married for thirty-eight years. Why it's been forty some years, I guess. Q: What was life like around here during the depression? A: Mrs. J. It was pretty tough, and pretty scrimpy. You had to make do with what you had. Mr. J. Well, I lived on Three Top worst depression Mrs. J. back in Ashe. That there that was before we was married. . . . pulled leaves, gathered herbs--~anything to buy what was necessary. And the rest of it they just had to do with what they had. Q: What types of herbs and all did they gather? A: Mrs. J. Oh, they was different kinds. wood leaves, bark Tfi'ey gathered beech- , beechwood bark, and witchhazel was what they call it. And they peeled Shawneehaw, black- berry briar root . . . . Mr. J. Sassafras roots . . . . Mrs. J. Sassafras roots fras big roots. Shawneehaw I've had to gather many of those sassatake out to the mountain, and pull Shawneehaw. Mr. J. I've treked for a mile and a half, two mile, all I could tie up and carry. Don't get big, really. Mrs. J. Wild cherries, wild cherries. Mr. J. Used to pick a lot of Balm of Gilead buds, but they got so cheap now you can't make nothing. Q: How much do those herbs bring? About thirty cents a pound. �10. At Mrs. J. pound. Oh, some of them bring from a penny to three cents a No, Shawneehaw or the bark from Shawneehaw root sometimes up to eight, nine, ten cents. Witchhazel leaves usually runs two to three cents and the bark sometimes all the way from one to three. Mr. J. Beetwood leaves now bring as high as thirty-four cents or more. Of course, everything's so high, you can't buy nothing now. Sold a lot of them for thirty-three or -four cents a pound. Mrs. J. So funny. You could get a lot more for what little money you did get out of the store. Mr. J. Anyone got that price then, they'd got rich. I been a-buying flour over yonder at 221, used to, 1 guess for two, three, or four years at two dollars for Blue Ribbon. Mrs. J. A box of matches now cost you fifteen cents. them here around for a .nickel. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Used to get A big box of soda was a nickel. Now it's $2.65. A glass of snuff was a quarter. Plug of tobacco was---it run about a quarter---200 to a quarter. Q: How about your salt? A:- Mrs. J. like that. Salt run about eighty---about a cent a pound, something We'd go buy rice. Get rice for two or three cents a pound. Box of Quaker Oats cost you maybe twenty to twenty-five cents. Mr. J. I bought some side meat for five cents before I was married staying with my brother-in-law. Q: How much does it cost now? A: Mr. J. Five cents a pound. I looked down here at Jack's Grocery the other day, there's a piece about that thick and so big first meat, I don't know. Seventy-five cents! pound. Mrs. J. Meat's got ridiculous now. , looks like Seventy-five cents a �11. Q: Was there a scarcity of jobs during the Depression? A: Mxz.J, Mrs. J. Yeah, it got awful scarce. People that had anything to do, they just didn't have the money to pay to have it done. So they just had to do what they could do theirselves and let the rest go. Mr. J. I remember two first checks or payrolls any monthly checks I ever drawed was during the World War. I was just a boy, and wasn't grown. First one was $37.20 and the next one was $27.20. Q: What were you doing? A: Mr. J. sand. Doodling saw dust at a mill, cutting eight to ten thou- Had a help awhile. And I'd do that with a wheelbarrow by myself, cutting eight and ten thousand feet lumber. Now you talking about a job, and that sun coming in on you. Couldn't stand it now, I bet you. I think I got two dollars a day, I think. Q: Were there any government programs around here, in the Depression? Like WPA, CCC. A: Mrs. J. They had the WPA awhile. mainly on it. A lot of the men could work on There was just so many people that needed work, they couldn't work them all. But they did work some. Mr. J. Q: I never did work at it, myself. They were pretty hard days then, but do you remember any of the good times during the Depression? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Not too much. I expect that all the way around many fared about as good then as they do now. A lot of them fared just as good, if not better than they do now. We have to work awful hard now-a-days to get by. Back then you had to work hard to 'get by, so you get just as much pleasure out of it. Mr. J. I figure one girl's been a-working three years, in June, out �12. at I.R.C. And she's made—worked out more money than I bet I work out in twenty years, twenty-five. got more than I've seen of my own. one today. She's spent a fortune, she's still She's got a lot of bonds, got She's got money at the Building and Loan and at the bank, and paid for a car. Bought sewing machines, electric irons, and enough to fill that car full several times. Paid for a house, clothes, and everything. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Q: My iron. We got the iron and give it to her. That's right, you did. But she got i1^ though. What were the first electrical appliances you got? A good one. Do you remem- ber? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Yeah, no-no, it was an old refrigerator. Refrigerator, and next was the washing machine. That's it down yonder. Kelvinator--that fellow called it Kelvinator. Q: Yeah, that's what my grandmother called it. A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. Did you get a radio? Yeah, we've got one. We've got several. Got two now, one's shot and the other won't play at all, unless you cut it off---I no more. Transistor radio's what I use now. Q: What were some of the programs you listened to? A: Mr. J. Q: Yeah, some of the first ones. A: Mr. J. On the radio? Oh,"Amos and Andy." Mrs. J. "Grand Ole Opry," "Amos and Andy." Then sometimes on Sunday, we'd get singing and preaching. Q: Where did y'all go to church? A: Mr. J. Up here at the top of the mountain, now. up there on Three Top, we went to Kraut. When we lived �13. Q: Was the church a pretty important part of your life when you were growing up? A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. Yeah, it was. Had to walk two or three mile off the mountain. three-quarter of a mile nearly straight down. them. Paid no attention to it then. Mrs. J. else. Well, there's Big, deep snows on That's the God's truth. People used to really go to church better then than anytime They got cars and they'll take off somewhere else, you know-- not stay at home. Mr. J. Mrs. J. I walked sixteen to eighteen miles many times before . . . . They used to---Sunday mornings would come, you'd have to get up and work-—do what you have to do, and then get ready to go to church, walk, and come back home. Mr. J. Fix you something to eat. We'd used to ride the horses back or go in a wagon when I was lust a boy. know, walking. I'd see old men coming when with the canes, you And buggies, yeah, a lot of buggies. I'd go, "What in the world is the matter with that man, has to have a cane." Blame, I've had to use one or two times, some crutches. I've had to use crutches. Q: How often did y'all have services? A: Mrs. J. We usually have services once a month, a preaching service, Sunday School every Sunday. Q: How about revivals? A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. Usually had one revival a year. Now it's two. And this man that runs the church, he has to get somebody to do the preaching, so we can have two to pay now. much money. Too Some type of helper, I don't care how--the pastor up here weighs 274 pounds. And he can preach, preach up a storm. And he has to get somebody else to do the preaching when we have a revival. �14. He's a big man. Q: Who is he? A: Mr. J. Mr s. J. Herbert Goodman. Goodman. Q: How did that church get it* A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. name? Do you know? No, I don't. No, I don't know. I've been in this country thirty-seven years in March, I reckon. Mrs. J. That church has been established a long time. I don't know how it got its. name. Mr. J. Yes, that's been established maybe ninety years, I guess. Well, they've had it a long time. Q: I guess Mr. Grogan up yonder would know. A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. He'd know a whole lot about it. He might come near to telling you how long it's been/ He's been a member up there for years. conversation about his brother.) month. (Tape goes into He's got a birthday right next He's eighty-seven or eighty-eight year old. I'll have to look it up one of these days, in the Bible. Bibles--tore all to pieces. Now I mean ole-timey Bible like that now, oh, a i n ' t a-telling what it would bring, would it. Mrs. J. Yeah, those people out at the flea market offered $75.00, didn't they? Mr. J. tore. out. There's plenty of if it hadn't been Two of my oldest brothers got in to it when the rest were And they tore it all to pieces. that big. END OP SIDE 1 Oh, the back on it was nearly �15. A: Mr. J. That's nine years, I guess. Got gone in ' 2 And 6. I had to send off—my name wasn't in it. brother had it Virginia. Someone else had it. My Had to write on it there, and he sent that pages that had his on it. I' took it. Don't know how I'd ever got it that day. Q: Were there a lot of doctors in this area? A: Mr. J. Q: What did y'all do when you couldn't get a doctor? A: Mrs. J. No. Well, if you couldn't get one, you had to do the best I could. Mr. J. Mrs. J. There's one that lived up here for years. There's one that lived right up the river here, and there's one at'Boone that would go out on calls. Mr. J. He's dead now. a good country doctor. to. One over on Creston---Three Top. He was He always went out, "hoss" back, or used Finally got one at Todd. Mrs. J. Well, if you really had to have one, if you fine them at home, well he'd go up the river here. Mr. J, People died then of appendicitis, and they just called it indigestion or something; colic or something. Yeah, it killed a many a one, and they didn't know what was the matter with them. Mrs. J. Well, people used to---they wasn't no doctors around handy, and they just had to doctor the best way they thought. they got better, it's all right. If If they died, it had to be all right, because it's all they had. Mr. J. They weren't experimenting like they are now. live twenty-one days with double pneumonia. Had a brother Sight a man ever been in that country. Q: What were some of the home remedies that your mother used? �16. A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Used boneset or my mother did, and catnip . . . . Ole penny royal-— for colds or anything like that, they'd make a tea out of penny royal. And lots of times whenever a baby was cross, wouldn't sleep, they'd take a catnip block, and make a tea, and give it to the baby. And they used camphor for other things. Colds and colic or anything like that. camphor in water . Mr. J. Give them a few drops of .» . We used to take two or three drops of camphor in a bowl of milk, and give it to a baby and it'll ease him right now; or else it used to for colic. Mrs. J. And for people who had chest colds or fevers, well, they'd make a poultice from, ah, roast onions and mix sulphur or something with them, and make a poultice and place it on their chest to break up the fever. Ah, there's so many of them there old remedies. I couldn't think of all they were. Q: What was sassafras tea used for? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Yeah, people used to drink a lot of that. Yeah, they used to drink that in the spring of the year for a tonic. Mr. J. Yeah, those winters. Mrs. J. Yeah, and sometimes they'd drink it instead of drinking coffee. They'd make a tea out of it and drink it instead of coffee. Mr. J. It's cheaper now than coffee. Mrs. J. Ten ounces for a $1.75. Back during the Depression, why, coffee was so high and we's so low on money, we had to parch rye around here and make coffee out of it. Q: Mr. Jones, you said your wife knew some of these old farm super- stitions. A: Mr. J. Could you two give me some of them? I don't know. I know I'd never like to plant nothing �17. when the moon points was up. I don't know if there's anything in it or not, but I never did likfe to. I put out some onions one time when the points were up, and I couldn't keep them in the ground. Mrs. J. Superstition is a pair of cedar trees. Little, ole cedar. If you plant it, by the time it gets up big enough to shade a grave, why you'll die. Mr. J. All kinds of stuff like that. Why you can plant it, and my mother argued argued there was-~ something in it. You planted corn or beans, put the heart down and it won't hardly freeze. And I tell you what. You just go right there and drop corn and beans and see if they ain't worlds of it— lots of it ain't even hurt at all, and the other just cooked. Mrs. J. Mr. J. I've seen some that-a-way, but I don't know . . . . My mother tried if she could. she tried to plant a little on Good Friday She always planted with the eye down, so she could have some early beans. something in that. I tell you one thing, I believe there's You can plant a whole row through there, and there*d come a big frost there, and it'll kill some dead and won't hurt some. Mrs. J. Used to plant you one to make you a few potatoes. Plant them about when the sun was in the moon, in the dark of the moon. I heard once about, something about, there was a family asking when was a good time to plant potatoes. moon." Told them 'bn the dark of the So they thought that was getting out in the night time and planting, using lanterns. Mr. J. You know there's a lot of people won't cut wood only at certain times. They won't walk after it. Yeah, they won't, at certain times, cut their wood. Q: I was talking to a fellow the other day, yesterday, and he �18. said that he'd be putting the boards on the barn. And if you put them on when either the moon was growing or was full, it would bow them out. If the moon was shrinking, it would set them in there tight. A: Mrs. J. Well, I know there are times that you can put boards on a barn, and them dirty things will just cup up. Mr. J. Mrs. J. The moon points it up when it does that, I know. And I have seen them on buildings that way where they|ve just turned up. Mr. J. Ixwas madder—I couldn't even see hardly. Those wouldn't set in there at all. Q: Isn't there one about planting corn? I think, if it's if the moon's full, you plant your corn, it'll grow higher. A: Mr.J. Mrs. J. No, it'll grow higher, I think, on the new moon. I think that when the moon's new, if you plant your corn, why it'll grow taller. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Yeah, some people plant in the moon. Yeah, I always planted in the ground. attention to it much. it. I never did payono Wanted to plant something I always planted Old-^people used---they used to have certain signs when they planted everything. You can get these here gardening books and they still go by the signs in planting root crops, planting you know, stuff that grows above ground. attention to it. I never did pay much I just went and planted when I got ready to. Q: What did they use for fertilizer back yonder? A: Mrs. J. Well their the only fertilizer they used back then was just the litter from the barn and stables, because they didn't buy it, they didn't have it. factured it Well, back there I reckon they manu- nowhere around here, where they could get it. But they �19. used the litter from the barns, and in their big fields where they put their corn or something like that, why they didn't use anything. Most of the time, they just cleaned out new land. They'd tend it till it gets so it wouldn't make nothing and then they'd let it grow up and try a new patch. Wood land then was had a lot of, you know, weeds had rotted on it so long; so long as it had lay it there. just planted in it, after they cleaned it off. They But, when it wouldn't make any more, why they'd let it change off and clear them off another patch, and try it. Q: Did all the gardening with horse drawn stuff, didn't you? A: Well, they usually had a patch that they kept their stable litter throwed on, that they did their gardening on. Mite small. My mom and dad always used their stable litter a little on their garden. She always had a pretty garden too. Q: Yeah, they didn't have tractors back then, did they? A: No, no, they used a team to do their plowing with, or oxen. oxen a lot. use a horse. Used And if they wanted anything cultivated, why, they had to They have cultivated with oxen too. I've drove oxens. I don't like it. Q: How is it different from driving horses? A: Mrs. J. Well, oxen can be so stubborn. won't budge at all. They won't budge till they get ready to. ever they get ready, then they'll go on. you can make him go on. They can just bug up and When- But a horse, most of the time, One of them old oxen, when he's stuck, he's just going to stay there til he's ready to go. Q: Did the farmers make the yokes for the oxen themselves? A: Mrs. J. Yeah, some of them did. knew how to make them made them. that made them. They used some of them that Maybe one person in the settlement �20. Q: Did they have a blacksmith around here? A: Mrs. J. Q: Where did y'all go to school over here? A: Mrs. J. at Trout. I guess they did, I don't know where though. Well, I went to school at Deep Gap, and he went to school He lived back in Ashe, he's from Ashe, Watauga County. I went to school in Deep Gap. I was born here in Well, I first went to school at the old schoo}, one room school building on Creek. x And then they put the schools together and took out a lot of the one room schools, and took out some of the county schools. Mr. J. seen. I remember the first air car and the first airplane I ever I bet you don*t---can't remember that. Q: No. Where was it? A: Mr. J. Way back in Ashe County. First airplane (car) I ever seen. twelve or thirteen years old. said, "all take a peek." Up on what they call the "Bluff." I was going to school---about Went past the schoolhouse. Rose something or another. got to see it, it was gone out of sight. stayed all after Teacher Before we all After that he come back and a little piece at church, I mean, schoolhouse. We'd go there and boy we thought that was the awfullest that had ever been. We'd look at it, go over there, reach in it, look at that car. Mrs. J. I can't really remember the first car I ever seen, but 1 can remember the first airplane I ever seen. We were living in Virginia at that time, and they's, gee I forget now whether there was five or how many there was in the bunch. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Five or seven. Went over in a bunch. They was the first ones I can remem- ber. Q: What did you think of them when you saw them? A: Mrs. J. Oh, I thought that was something great. All them airplanes, �21. I just don't remember the first car I ever seen. Mr. J. Well, I do. Mrs. J. I sort of remember one Dad ever bought. He got an old "scooter," strong armed as I am I'd run it up in the trees every time. Q: How much mileage did you get in those old cars? A: Mrs. J, I don't really know. I was too young really to know any- thing about them. Mr. J. Didn't have any roads then. Back in '27, with only gravel roads, if you got thirty-five mile,you's flying. boys taking me to see my girl. road, and you were flying then. I know. One of the Hit thirty-five mile on that old.gravel They thought that was something. Q: How many miles to the gallon of gas? A: Mr. J. I don't know. There was-—according to what model it was, I guess. Mrs. J. Mr. J. I don't know myself . . . . I don't remember for my life. now. They's quite a difference from Now one son-in-law, he told our daughter here---he's got one of them, I reckon you kinda call foreign made 1 reckon it's made in the United States or it's made just like one of those foreign cars. I think he gets about thirty-five miles.(to the gallon) Q: I get about thirty-two on my Volkswagen. age. You were talking about courting. That's pretty good mile- What all did you do? What did you do on your dates? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Q: I'd just go and sit all night is all I done. We'd just sit and talk. Stay till about eleven or twelve o' clock. We never did go anywhere. Go to bed. He'd come visit, sit and talk. I went everyday. Did you ever go pick berries or cherries or work in the garden �22. together? Mrs. J. Mr. J. Oh, we might have gone out together and pick cherries to eat. They were going to clear out the pig-pen one time, but I didn't stay long. Mrs. J. I come back. I was scared of it. I don't know, we might of got out and worked cutting cabbage or something, anytime that we'd be a working. Q: Can y'all think of anything else that I haven't asked you about? A: Mr. J. I don't reckon. After you leave, I can think of a whole lot. Mrs. J. Whenever a fellow's trying to think of something, ever think of Q: it. We appreciate you giving us this information. he can't � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sam Jones, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource Sam Jones was born in Deep Gap, North Carolina around the early 1900s on a farm where he grew up. He worked at a sawmill. Mr. Jones starts the interview talking about growing up on a farm. At this point his wife joins the interview, and they begin talking about berry-picking and produce. Mr. Jones also talks about working at the sawmill and the importance of the railroads in transportation. They both talk about their experiences with the Great Depression including topics of picking herbs, working, and church. Mr. and Mrs. Jones discuss the lack of doctors in the past and different home remedies they used. To end the conversation, the two recall the first time they saw a car and airplane. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNeely, Mike Jones, Sam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 22 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape84_SamJones_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Todd, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Sawmill workers--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 berry picking Deep Gap dried fruit farming Great Depression herbs and roots home rememdies livestock maple syrup railroad Sam Jones sawmill https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/74f1927f4e7baa04fde1ffc3c674d110.pdf 2cee9b841fba1c3ba7b9ee2453db9121 PDF Text Text Tape # 46 Outline I. Name and birthplace of parents. II. Parents schooling. III. Occupation. IV. Churches in the area. V. Community A. Formation. B. Change. C. Decision makers. D. Minority groups E. Population. VI. Politics A. Change. VII. Transportation A. Layout of roads and railroads B. Building of railroads. C. First cars. VIII. Mountain crafts and customs. A. Courting. IX. Outlaws X. Legends, folktales, supersitions XI. Depression XII. Shull's Mill XIII. Honorary degree of Kentucky Colonel. �This is an interview with Mr. N.D. Shull for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley on March 27, 1973. Q: Could you give me the name and birthplace of your parents? A: Well, my father was born here at Shull's Mill. My mother was born over on Cove Creek. Q: What were their names? A: R. L. was my father's name; Mamie D. Graybeal was my mother's name. Q: Did you have any brothers and sisters? A: None alive. Q: But you did have some? A: Two. Q: What were their names? A: They died when they was small. William, and I forget the other one's name. Q: How much schooling did your parents have? A: I have no idea. Q: What is your occupation? A: Engineer. �3. Q: When you lived in this area, what sorts of churches were here? Have you lived here all your life? A: Well, I was born here and stayed here until I was about 18. Q: What sorts of churches were in this area when you came back, or in the earlier days? A: Well, in the early days the same churches were here except Hebron bought out the Presbyterian Church. The other churches were the same. Q: To which of these churches did most of the people belong? A: Well, they were divided. There was no particular preference. Q: How do you think that they have changed over the years, if any? A: I can't see any change. They still have the same beliefs they had earlier. Q: HOT# did this community get its name? A: Four brothers came over, one of them settled here, had a mill out here on the river, and it was called Shull's Mill. Q: How was it formed in the first place, just because of this mill? that reason? A: That's where it got its name. Q: How do you think the community has changed over the years? For �4. A: It was strictly a rural farming area, and now it's gone into a summer resort area. Q: Who have been the community decision makers? Mainly the Shulls or other people involved also? A: I don't see that there was any one person that was the community decision maker. It was all handled through the individuals that owned the property. They made their own decisions. Q: Are there any minority groups in the community? A: None. Q: Has the population changed greatly in the community? A: Well, since Hound Ears and some of the other resorts being here, of course the population has increased. But if you discount that, the population is about the same as it was when I was growing up. Q: On politics* do you have any memoires of specific elections, local or state? A: When I was growing up, they always had a big fight, and everybody got about half drunk, that's about all I remember. Republicans wouldn't vote a Democrat ticket, or vice versa. Q: How do you think the politics have changed over the years? �5. A: I don't think it's as clean now as it was; it's a dirty bunch of politics, a dirty bunch of politicians. Q: How did the people get around in the community? What sort of transportation did they use? A: Horse, buggy, foot. Q: Where did the roads and the railroads run? A; Well, the railroads ran from Johnson City to Boone, that was Tweetsie. With the exception of this new 105 they built in here a few years ago, the old roads were essentially in the same location, but they weren't hard surface. They were just dirt roads, the first ones, maintained by county labor. Q: When were the railroads built? A: About 1914. Q: Do you remember the first cars in the community? A: Well, my father had about the first car that was right in this community. It was, I believe, a 1914 Ford. That's somewhere around '20 I guess, '18 or '20 when he got it. Q: Do you know very much about the mountain crafts and customs? Soapmaking, curing, weaving, anything like that? A: No. �6. Q: Are there any mountain cures that you are familiar with? A: Well, there's an awful lot of them that people use and talk about, but I'm not familiar with any of them. I believe in a good ol' doctor. Q: How would you compare the courting then and now? Dating back then? A: Well, back then you either walked or rode a horse. You usually stayed at the girl's home, didn't wander around much. Now, I don't do any courting now. Looks to me like they're all over the country. Q: It was more back then, you traveled in groups didn't you? If you went to the girl's house, weren't you more with a group than like now it seems that they're alone so much? A: No, I'd say you were more by yourself back then. Q: I was thinking that maybe a group of them got toether in a horse and buggy, went somewhere, picnicking or something like that? A: Oh, well. When you got together, that's right, on an outing or something, you traveled in groups. When you went courting, you went by yourself. You had no competition or interference. Q: Bedtime was pretty early back then wasn't it? A: They sure was, but getting-up time was a lot earlier. Q: Were there any badmen back in the area during that time? �7. A: Oh, sure. We had a few that were considered a little wild, but I don't imagine they would be considered bad now. Q: No outlaws ? A: Not in this particular section that I know of. Q: Are there any folktales and legends associated with this community, or any superstitions that were maybe passed down from your father or mother? A: There's a lot of tales about how tought living was back then, as far as legends, I don't know . DEPRESSION Q: When did it start as best you can remember? A: Started in the early '30's, maybe '29. Q: How many years did it last? A: Well, I believe you could feel it up until the war started in,the '40's, '41. Course, it wasn't as bad in the latter part of the 30's as it was in the early part. Q: Were you living here at the start of the Depression? A: No. Q: Where were you living then? A: Tennessee. �Q: How many were in your family? A: There was just my mother, my father, and myself. Q: Did anyone else live with you? Any boarders? A: No. Q: What was the effect of the Depression on your family? A: Well, you just didn't have the money t o spend, didn't buy the clothes and food that you normally would. You made do with what you had. Q: How did it effect the working conditions? A: There was no work to be found. Q: Were you working during the Depression? A: No, I was in school when it started. I got out in '32. Q: Did you ever hear of any government projects, WPA, CCC? A: Yes, had WPA here, and CCC camp was not too far from here. It wasn't in Watauga County. Q: What did they do exactly? A: Most of the WPA workers worked on the roads, including the roads, highways; and the CCC Boys were brought in and taught how to survive in the wilderness. They built trails, and I think they grew some timber. �9. Q: When did the welfare program, start? A: Are you still speaking of WPA, CCC. . . ? Q: Yes, something like that. A. Best I recall, it was in the early '30's. Q: Was any of your family affected by those projects? A: No. Q: Was there a scarcity of food? A: Not in this particular section, because as I said before, this was strictly a rural area and all the local families raised their own food. Q: What crops did you raise? A: Oh, outside the gardens which we raised everything we ate, main crops were cabbage and potatoes. Q: Did you have any animals? A: Well, we always kept a cow. I had a pony when I was growing up. dogs, normal animals on a farm. Q: Were prices higher or lower during the Depression.? A: Prices were lower. Cats, �10. Q: Were there any new ways of making money that arose, such as maybe people took up making moonshine, gathering ginseng? A: Well, I don't know if people took it up or not, but that's been going on in this section of the country as far back as I can remember. And it's still going on. Q: Do you remember any of the banks closing? A: I remember when the President closed the banks in order to get them reorganized back then. Q: Do you remember any in this area particularly that closed? A: Well, they were all closed for a few days. Q: What was the community reaction to the banks closing? A: Oh, I guess, it was pretty evenly divided. Some thought it would never open again, and others agreed with the President's idea. Q: What date was it that the banks closed? A: '31, 1931, I'm sure. Q: How was the community affected? Was there any profound effect, or did things stay pretty much the same? A: Things stayed pretty much the same. �11. Q: Was there anyone that you blamed for the collapse of the banks? A: The bank's didn't collapse here. The banks were financially in good shape. And as for other sections of the country, I have no idea, poor management, I guess. Q: Did the schools change during the Depression? A: Yes, they did. We had better buildings, we built some new buildings. Course, I believe we had better schools. Q: How about the churches and businesses, the country stores? A: They was about the same. Q: What do you think caused the Depression? A: Well, looked like the stock market was in pretty bad shape; too many people over bought, caught up with them and from that it snowballed into a very uncomfortable situation. Q: Who was hurt worst by the Depression? A: Small investors. Q: Do you think there was anything particularly good about the Depression days? A: Well, at least during the Depression days a dollar was worth a dollar, and if you wanted somebody to work for you or if you wanted to work for somebody else, you could put out a day's work. All in all, I think our economy �12. was healthier than it is now. Q: How is life different today than from the Depression, such as the family life, education, etc. ? A: Back then, all you had was a newspaper and a radio, and the newspaper got here when the mailman rode his horse. Now, you got television, good automobiles to travel, and naturally you have a little more interest in what is going on. Q: What do you like best about today's way of living? A: Retirement. Q: If you could change anything about the way they are now, what would that be? A: I'm not too fond of these subsidies that the government hands out for not growing some crops. I believe that the old law of supply and demand would help us a lot. Q: What I want to get you to do now is to tell me all about Shull's Mill if you would? The founding. It's effect on the community. The history of it. A: Well, the founding and the effect of the community, I don't know anything about that. My grandfather was the postmaster back in 1879. That's a grant that was given to him. The fact that the railroad came in here, and then Whiting Lumber Co. moved in here, and cut out all the timber on Grandfather. �13. Had a little narrow gauge railroad that went up to Boone's Fork, hauled logs in on that. Plants were just across the river from here. They had quite an operation here. At one time they were here. We had a hospital, summer drug store, a big commissary, theatre, I think it was 500 families. large, or larger than Boone at that particular time. It was Course, after the timber supply was depleted on Grandfather Mountain, they all moved to Butler. Families, of course, migrated out of here. There's very few of them left, in this section now. The older families that were here before the mill, their descendants are here. Q: What was the mill exactly? A: Just a lumber mill. They made lathes, you know wooden lathes, that they used in place of metal lathes. They were strictly a lumber mill. They cut timber in the woods, hauled it in, ran it through the mill. Then they dried it and sized it and shipped it out. Q: Did they ship it all over the United States, or just to North Carolina? A: It was shipped out of here on Tweetsie. After it got to Johnson City, I don't know where it went. Q: What is the Kentucky Colonel over there? I noticed that last time I was in here. A: My wife and I both were appointed Kentucky Colonels a few years ago. �14. Q: What is that exactly? A: It's an honorary appointment that you get from the Governor of Kentucky. Q: What is that for? A: It's just one of those honorary commissions that they give you. Q: You got it from the Governor of Kentucky? How did you manage that? A: Well, it was managed through my sister-in-law. She's the one who had the influence. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with N.D. Shull, March 27, 1973 Description An account of the resource N.D. Shull was born in Shull's Mills, North Carolina and worked as an engineer throughout his life. Mr. Shull and his wife were appointed Kentucky Colonels through the Kentucky governor. Mr. Shull describes his childhood including topics such as church, politics, and transportation, specifically cars and the railroad. Mr. Shull lived in Tennessee with his parents during the Great Depression, and describes what that was like. He also explains the background of Shull's Mill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brinkley, Bill Shull, N.D. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/27/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape46_NDShull_1973_03_27M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--History automobiles cars Great Depression Kentucky Colonels Politics railroad religion Shull's Mill transportation https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3aeeaf308ceb052510e4cdf8e87ad22e.mp3 0b9d918f32fd32d6133a1758eb93924f https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/830a6f5fc4916a88e5a974b7ed6225dd.mp3 0a59da7c9ba4a294023e100f4787e639 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/15afd20c10710e9d450e93672c800166.pdf dd10ff6e97edcf57fea25183a452af40 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 34 Interviewee: Edward Blackburn Interviewer: Bill Ballock 2 March 1973 BB: Bill Ballock EB: Edward Blackburn OB: Ollie Blackburn BB: This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Project with Edward Blackburn at Todd, North Carolina, on March 2, 1973 by Bill Ballock. Tell your name and start out from there. EB: I’m Ed Blackburn and I live at Todd, North Carolina. I’ve lived here for 80 years and I’m a preacher. I have, in the past been a mail carrier, but today I’m trying to preach. Lived here in the mountains and worked with mountain people, think they’re the finest people in the world. That’s not belittling anybody else, but I appreciate and honor them. Want to be an honor to the mountains. Is that thing (the tape recorder) running now? BB: Just don’t even pay any attention to it. EB: Now, you go ahead and talk to me. BB: Okay. Can you tell me something about your childhood? EB: Yes, a little bit. I remember not too much about it. I remember many years back, born here in Ashe County and lived here, as I said once, all my life. Went to school here, what little I went, and went to the First World War. Went through the First World War through the entire was except for 14 days. Came back and lived here ever since. This has been my home ever since. All my life this has been my home. I have seen Boone when it was just a few white houses there and the streets were two feet deep of mud. If you got across the street you got across on a pile of ashes. You missed the ashes and you went in the mud to your knees. I’ve seen West Jefferson come from a house or two to a nice town. Seen the railroad come in here and helped work on it. I drove pegs for the engineers, helped work on the track and I’ve seen it come and go. BB: What about the railroad? What did you do on the railroad? EB: I helped the engineer survey it and worked on the track work. And then I helped grade it, helped grade the whole thing. Helped make it, everything but the coaches and the engines. 1 �BB: Where did it start out? EB: Where did it start from? Abingdon, Virginia. Came to Todd, 76 miles, 76 miles and so many tenths to Todd. Came in and out once a day. Stayed all night here and then went out in the morning, came back in the evening. Todd used to be a business place. Had a bank, drugstores, and how many grocery stores I’ve forgotten. Lots of numbers of people lived here. It’s just a ghost town now because all the old people are dead and all the young people have moved away. And the banks are gone, the money is gone, the timber is gone, and most of the land is gone. BB: How did people feel about the railroad here in Todd? EB: Well, they wanted it to come in you know. They didn’t know it was going to ruin us and take all our timber out and leave us nothing. We wanted it to come in. BB: So you think after it left it was bad? EB: Yes, yes. It left us in a lot worse shape. All of our timber gone and not anything to show for it. OB: It should have gone on up to Boone. EB: Sure, if it went on up to Boone it would be running today. West Jefferson over there is a thriving town and it came into West Jefferson now one or two times a week. (The railroad) hauls freight in there. No passenger trains, no mail. Used to run a passenger train in there and carried the mail. BB: It did run a passenger train? EB: Yes, oh yes. Two times a day the Lord blessing. One in the morning and one in the evening. In and out. Passenger train and freight, sometimes two freights. Loads of them, double heading out here, a number of cars loaded with timber. BB: So if you wanted to change it back, you wouldn’t let the railroad come back? EB: No. I wouldn’t work on it. In fact, I would get other people not to. That’s right, keep what we have. BB: Well, they tell me you are a preacher. Can you tell me something about how you got started in that? EB: Yes, well the Lord called me. Yes, I’m a preacher honey. Got a lovely church over here. The finest people in the country come there. I got started because the Lord called me to be a preacher. I didn’t want to be a preacher. I wanted anything in the world besides being a 2 �preacher. I really wanted to be a drunkard, and drink liquor and carouse around. But the Lord saved me. Then He called and saved me and delivered me from drinking liquor. He called me to be a preacher. And now I’m preaching and wouldn’t do anything else now. I’m not much of a preacher, but I’m the best preacher I know how to be. God bless you. BB: When did it start? EB: When did I start preaching? I started preaching in about 1922 or ’23. BB: What brought it on? Did you go to school? EB: No, never been, just went through the schoolhouses. Ran a mill, only school college I’ve ever been in. I used to run a mill in Todd and sell meal to the Boone College. That’s the only college I know anything about; selling meal. I’ve been to college anyhow selling them meal. BB: So you just took the preaching on your own? EB: Yes, thank God. On my own. Lived by it. Only way I have of getting a penny is what people give me. Nobody behind me but the Lord and that’s enough. God called me and I’ve worked with everybody that needs help. OB: He’s worked all his life and got Social Security. EB: I draw Social Security, but not enough. BB: Do you get paid for preaching? EB: Yes sir. Got a lovely congregation. Get a little, sometimes get more than others. Take an offering every morning when I preach. I just preached over here at the tabernacle two times a month, second and fourth Saturday. And somebody takes an offering for us. BB: What’s the name of the church? EB: Blackburn Memorial Church and Campground. I want you to go out and get a history of it, get you to look at it and take the history down off of the sign. BB: How did it come about that you’re preaching? How were you called? EB: Well, the Lord just called me you know. I got saved from being a drunkard and the Lord called me to be a preacher. Why, I don’t know, but He called me to be a preacher. I just went to doing things that preachers ought to do. Not like other men can, but the best I could. And God called me to be a preacher and I’ve been faithful to the job ever since. OB: He gets busier everyday about it, counseling with somebody. Some drunkard or some 3 �family having trouble. BB: What people come here? EB: Drunks, folks trying to get delivered from liquor, folks having marriage troubles, about to separate, parting, fussing and fighting. Come here day and night to be prayed with and counseled with, talked to and prayed for. Thank God. God had blessed us so far with a fruitful ministry. BB: They told me that once you got sick. Could you tell me something about that? EB: Once I was seriously sick. So sick they thought I would die you know. They sent me to the hospital against my will. They sent me to West Jefferson and the hospital at Jefferson kept me 18 or 19 days and couldn’t find what was the matter with me. And they sent me from there to Winston-Salem. When I got to Winston I was so near dead they gave me eight pints of blood. And that’s about all of it. But I stayed down there 18 or 19 days and they were going to operate on me, but I couldn’t take it. I was weak. I couldn’t stand an operation. I prayed and before the Lord and the host of heaven, God healed me and I came home the day they were supposed to operate on me. That night – the doctors and nurses came in to get me ready for an operation and I told the nurses, “God’s healed me. I’m going home. I want you to send me home today.” That excited the nurses and the doctor came in and told him that, and then he went out of the room. And several other doctors came in. They pushed me and then rolled me, then looked in my eyes, looked at my fingernails and examined my feet and had a counsel and told me I could go home. But when I got ready to come home there were a number of people there that came to set up the operation. Felt sorry for my mom you know and my children. I was getting my clothes on and getting ready to come home and I told the doctor, “I’ll never be back down here unless I come to pray for somebody.” I’ve been back twice, or three times. OB: Why don’t you tell the whole story? EB: Well, I’ve told enough of it, haven’t I? BB: I want the whole story. OB: The night you were healed, don’t you remember? EB: Yes, yes. I was praying you know, the night before the operation and a nurse came through and turned my pitcher upside down, the water pitcher, and I knew that was bad business. I was burning up and wanted water. The nurse came in and turned my water pitcher upside down, no 4 �more water for me. If I had money I would have hired somebody to pour water for me, but I didn’t have that kind of money and had to depend on the nurses and the orderlies. The nurse came through or one of the aides came through and turned my pitcher upside down and I knew that there was no more water for me. I knew what was coming. I knew that I was so weak and couldn’t take it. I was already dead. I just told God that I couldn’t take it. And sometime through the night, somebody came to by bed and called me name and said, “You don’t need an operation.” Next morning I was able to come home. Thank God. And I’ve been home ever since and I work like a slave, day and night. I haven’t ever been sick any more and I’m 80 years old this coming August. Thank God. That’s what God done for me. BB: You sure don’t look 80 years old. EB: I have been out here sawing wood. BB: My father is 50 years old and you look twice as young as he. EB: What about that? Bless your daddy honey. BB: What about the community itself? What do you think of the Todd community? EB: I think its marvelous and wonderful. One of the best anybody ever had the privilege to live in. Thank God. The best neighbors that God could set down around you. Anything you need, somebody will bring it to you and see about you. That’s what I think about it. It’s so good I nearly disgraced it by living here, that’s what kind of place it is. Marvelous. OB: Tell him how we worship. EB: Well, just like anybody else so far as I know. We go to church. OB: Well, I mean we’re all one. EB: Sure, sure. Our prayer meetings, we all worship together you know. We have a prayer meeting in the Baptist church, and we’re known as Holiness people. We go to the Baptist church and the next night they come to the tabernacle church, and the next night we go to the Methodist church. We worship all the way around. And nobody knows whether uncle Ed belongs to the Baptist church or the Methodist church. And I don’t know whether the Baptist church belongs to our tabernacle or the Baptist church. We don’t pay any attention to that, we just worship God, and get along good. It’s a marvelous community. Nobody’s got a better one. BB: As time goes on, do you think that it’s losing out, that people are getting away from each other? 5 �EB: Yes, I do believe the young people are as time goes on. Yes, I do. And the old people are dying and that cripples us some. But so many of our young people have moved off from this country see, they had to leave here to get a job. And we just get them through high school and many of them through college and they’ve got to go somewhere else to get a job you know, to work out a living. So that just leaves the young and the old folks. You know the old folks die one by one and leave. And then these other children go to college and then they get…raised. Ma’am and me raised five children, two boys and three girls. Our baby is in New Jersey, she’s a librarian. I got a boy in Virginia Beach, Virginia; he’s a printer for the United States government. He has been thee a long time, soon to retire. And I got a boy that lives at Cherryville. He drives for the Carolina Freight and he’s been there for years. We have a daughter that lives in Abingdon, Virginia. She married a builder contractor and they have a supermarket. They are building a supermarket. Our oldest daughter married a sanitary and county health officer and they live here in Ashe County. Five lovely children and all of them seem to be doing well. BB: That’s just great. It’s just beautiful out here. I don’t see why any young people would want to leave. EB: Thank you, it is beautiful. And we live in an old house. OB: I’ll tell you why the young people, our children…every one of them get so homesick to come to the mountains to live. But you see, where we made the mistake was selling every stick of timber we had here for the railroad and letting the companies come in here and carry it off, haul it off on the train out away from here. And wouldn’t let companies come in here. We could have had factories up here, all kind of furniture factories and everything if we hadn’t loved our little dirt. You see we loved the dirt better than if we loved… EB: Sure. They wanted to buy land for factories. OB: And we wouldn’t sell them land. And see that’s the reason our children now had to reap the results of it. They had to get an education and go somewhere else to get a job. BB: What do you think about somebody who would want to come out here and farm and try to preserve what you have? EB: I think it’s wonderful. I think that young people can come and live conservative and buy a farm and get rich, thank God. Say raise enough cattle to get rich. Right here in these mountains, men are doing it. I don’t. I don’t have a cow. Don’t have anything but some fish and wild ducks. That’s all the property we’ve got. I own 27 acres of land here and this old house is over 176 years old, where you’re sitting now. 6 �All handmade, all worked with hands. And there’s a door that doesn’t have a nail in it unless I put it in. The house is put together with wooden pegs. It’s been here we know for 176 years and we think several years longer. BB: Do you know who built it? EB: We think we know. We think a man by the name of “Younce,” who has been dead for many many years you know. We think he built this house here. This house and the soldiers, Northern soldiers came down and burned my grandfather’s house down. This was his workhouse where he loomed, had looms, and wove their cloth and cooked here. OB: Made their shoes. EB: The fireplace was six feet across and I filled it in. But this was just and outhouse. Northern soldiers burnt the house down out here and left our people with nothing. Took their meat and the horses, and burned a lot of their clothes. Just left my grandparents with nothing. BB: So you remember your grandparents talking about the Civil War? EB: Yes, I just barely can, the Lord bless you, just barely. OB: His mother was 11 years old. EB: Yes, when they burned the house and she’s been dead for years. BB: So they did come through this way? EB: They did come right through here and burn the nice home out here on this hill right out here. You can go out there and dig up charcoals from it right now. BB: And you’re 80 years old? EB: I’m 80 years old this coming August. BB: Okay. What do you think about politics? EB: Politics? Well, I think that we need two kinds. I think we need two good parties and I think that both sides do so sorry that I’m ashamed of both sides. I vote for one then I wish I had voted for the other because we do things. They tell us we’re not going to do one thing and the next day they do it. Then I think I ought to have voted for the other fellow. I think we need two good parties and men to be honest and upright and tell us the truth and do the best they can for us and quit lying to us. We know they can’t do all the things they tell us they’re going to do because we haven’t got enough money to do it. 7 �BB: Do you remember the first election you voted in? EB: No, I can’t remember darling. No. BB: Who was the first president that you remember? EB: Oh, I remember Teddy Roosevelt and Mr. McKinley. I remember, I was just a boy though, but I remember when the news traveled so slow you know, about killing McKinley. I remember that. BB: What did you think of Roosevelt? EB: Well, I was just a boy. Didn’t make any different to me darling. Just another man and I heard by father and mother talk about him you know. Teddy Roosevelt. BB: What about Truman? EB: Yes, I loved Harry Truman. I think he was an excellent president. He would tell you what to expect and then he did it. And if you didn’t like it he would fight you if you wanted to fight. I think he was fine. BB: What about Eisenhower? EB: I think he was great. BB: You did? You liked Eisenhower then? EB: Yes, I liked him good enough to vote for him. BB: What about Kennedy? EB: Not struck on Kennedy. I’ll not comment why, but I’m not struck on him. I didn’t give a dime if it’s on the signboards in Broadway, New York City. BB: What about Johnson? EB: I liked Mr. Johnson, thought he was a nice, fine gentleman. BB: What about Mr. Nixon? EB: I think he’s fine. I quarrel with him sometimes, cuss him sometimes for things he does and don’t do. But I think he’s going be a fine president. I think he’s doing the best he can. BB: What was World War One like? 8 �EB: It was rough, rough, rough. World War One was rough. I volunteered and went. The war was declared the 6th day of May and I enlisted in the World War the 17th day of May. I wanted to go to the war and then I went, but wanted to come home. Went to France and fought through the Meuse-Argonne Forest, Mont Saint-Michel, close to Verdun, and sector near Verdun. I saw the Hindenburg line broke where Von Hindenburg said there wasn’t enough men this side of hell to go through that line and the American soldiers went through it and tore it all to pieces and whooped their hind ends off. BB: And you were in it? You were fighting? EB: I was there. Came out of the lines on November 11th, 1918. BB: And then you went to World War Two? EB: I wasn’t in World War Two, no. BB: You were at home right? EB: I was at home, yes. BB: Were you preaching then? EB: Yes. BB: What was it like during World War Two? EB: Well, I wasn’t in it. I just knew all the men that was in it. I knew lots of the men that did go you know. But I wasn’t in it. I didn’t have any part of lot in it except to work you know. I worked in the defense plant, the most of the time during the Second World War in Coats, Pennsylvania for a steel mill. A big steel mill. BB: What about Vietnam? What about the people here at home? How do they feel about it in your community? EB: Well, I think the majority of us thought that we had it to do. That there wasn’t anything else to do is what I think. They didn’t fight as rough as I wanted them to fight. I wanted them to thrash the face out of them and get out of it. Give them a thrashing and come home, but we just played along with them and didn’t whoop them. I wanted to whoop them good and come out. BB: Are you glad that the Peace… EB: I am delighted! I want to be a peacemaker honey. That’s my business, being a peacemaker. But if I have to fight you I’m going to fight awful rough while I fight. 9 �BB: What about the Depression? EB: Yes, I lived through that. It didn’t make much difference to me because we’re kind of depressed every day anyhow. But we did get through it, but it was a hard time, the Lord bless you. It was a hard time. BB: What did you do during the Depression? EB: Well, I lived right here and raised cabbage and Irish potatoes and sent children to school, right here. BB: Do you think that it was easier for the people, the farmers than it was for the people in town? EB: Yes, I do. The man that had the farm knew how to work it and to manage. He had a better chance of surviving than the people in town because they didn’t have anything. They were just out. BB: You didn’t have any trouble getting clothes or shoes and stuff did you? EB: Oh, no. No, we had clothes, had shoes, and had plenty to eat what it was. But we didn’t have any money. BB: You wouldn’t want to see another Depression would you? EB: No, no. Never want to see another Depression. Don’t ever want to see ten-hour workdays come back. I want good wages and honest work. I do believe in a man that’s getting two dollars an hour ought to be able to put out and work for two dollars an hour. BB: I reckon that you remember the flood of 1940 too, don’t you? The flood? EB: Yes, I do. BB: I reckon as a preacher that you had right much to do? EB: Yes, I had much to do the entire time son. OB: When was the flood? EB: 1962, wasn’t the flood the one I’m thinking about here in ’62? We about washed away in this country. I think it was in…no, in 1943, wasn’t it ’43? BB: Yes, somewhere in there. Do you remember it? 10 �EB: Yes, oh yes. I had a mill down here in this little village we call Todd. And I came home and when I came around the curve coming out of Todd, there was a high place there. I turned around, looked around and told God and to myself, “This is the last time I’ll ever see Todd if it doesn’t quit raining.” And that night two or here buildings went out of Todd all together like an ark. The buildings went right down the stream all together. There was a mill there, a big mill. That mill was taken out, a store on the other side of the creek away from the water; the rain took the store just like an ark was floating down the creek. But God ceased the rain and that is the only reason that Todd didn’t wash away. OB: Right here, over there came a big crack on the hill. EB: Yes, the mountain cracked there. And had it slid off, there wouldn’t have been anything left in the village. It would have all went out; too much dirt and water. I saw that. BB: Did anyone come to your house for refuge? EB: Yes, we had company. Some of our kinfolk were here. They got caught in the storm here and had to stay here. BB: Were all of you scared? EB: No, we weren’t scared here on the hill. We thought my, lots of water, but we didn’t think it would get to us and it didn’t. BB: I was talking to Miss Trivette and she said their house almost washed away. EB: Oh, yes. All around them. BB: I reckon that was a pretty bad time. EB: Yes. Serious time, serious time. BB: Getting back to your childhood, what can you remember about it now? Was it like growing up in the mountains? EB: Marvelous, wonderful. I had a good daddy and a good mother and didn’t know what trouble was. He was a hard worker and had a good farm and made all the things we needed to live on except clothes and shoes. It was marvelous. I would love to go back and live through it again. Didn’t know what trouble was. Didn’t know we would ever see a day that we didn’t have enough. Thank God! BB: What kind of games did you play? EB: We just played what we called back in those days “Base.” We didn’t know anything about 11 �baseball and things like that. We just played Base, “Dare Base” and would run like wild men. We would see who could outrun the other and who could break the other side. If we ever made a circle around the others man’s home, we would break him up and had to start over again. If we would catch his men off a base, we would put them in jail. We would get all of his men until he was overpowered, why we broke him up again. BB: What was it called? EB: We called in “Base,” or “Dare Base.” We would have a line and dare a fellow to come put his foot on a line. Then we would take out after him and if we caught him before he got back to his base, why we would bring him and put him in a jail. But then we had to guard him and if another man left his base and came over, we could touch him. But if he touched the guy in jail before we could get to him, then he would get out. But he watched that and if we caught him, we put him in jail. That was our job. The fellows that got the most men in jail or one of our best runners made a circle around the other man’s base, that broke him up and we won the game. Just like war. He just had to surrender, that’s all. OB: Then at night, we danced in the homes. Barn dances. EB: We would have parties in the night. Play the banjo, the violin or fiddle. We danced all night, thank God! Had a good time. BB: Did you know anybody that played the fiddle? EB: They are dead now. Knew a lot of men, but they have gone to heaven now. OB: My daddy played for the parties. My granddaddy played the violin and my daddy played the banjo. BB: Would it be every night? EB: No, we couldn’t take it every night. About two nights a week. BB: Would you all be drinking moonshine? EB: Not much, sometimes. Usually wine, grape wine. Sometimes we had the real stuff…moonshine. BB: Did your dad make moonshine? EB: No sir, he was a Christian gentleman. He didn’t even drink it. My father’s brother was a 12 �Congressman. There is his picture on the wall. Served two terms in the United States Congress. And my father was against liquor. BB: What was his name? EB: E. Spencer Blackburn. Honorable E. Spencer Blackburn. BB: What was the year that he was in Congress? EB: Well, I’ve forgotten little darling boy. I was just a boy. In 1906 and 1908 I expect (Edmond Spencer Blackburn was a Republican U.S. Congressman from 1901-03 and 1905-07). You better put a question mark on that honey, because I was just a little boy. But he would visit my father often. Had a big, high silk hat and fine clothes. BB: What kin was he to you? EB: He was my uncle, my father’s brother. End of side I BB: Have you hunted and fished a lot? EB: Yes, fished a lot. Yes, it wasn’t against the law then to take a net and go into the river and catch fish by the bushel. BB: What about legends and stuff? Old folk tales and myths. Do you remember any? EB: No, not many. People used to tell us ghost tales and that would scare us nearly to death. BB: Who would tell them to you? EB: Old people. But they are all dead and gone many years ago. They would come by and tell us ghost stories you know, and we were afraid to look out of the house after the sun went down. BB: Do you remember any? EB: No, I can’t remember them. One old man lived down here on the river and a man went missing and the people never could find him. They thought he went and jumped in the river at a hole where it wasn’t frozen over. But never could find him. But then in the spring when the ice went out, the ice flow went out, why this old man down here on the river found five bones. What the doctor said was they were five bones of a man and he took them home and put the bones in the loft. He said that every night the five bones would just beat the floor all night. I’ve heard him tell that story many times. He said there was a beat on the floor. But he still had so far as I know, when he died – still had that beating on the floor. 13 �BB: Do you believe that? EB: Don’t believe a word of it, no. But I do believe that he had the bones because I heard people talk about the man disappearing. The man’s name was “Lookabill.” Something happened to his mind. A nice man, but he disappeared and never was found. That’s as close as anything that would come to a ghost story. But that’s just to me a folktale. I know nothing about that, only what was told. BB: Do you remember any old sayings? EB: No, I’ve forgotten them all. We used to have many of them. And they were all so good that they ought to have been remembered. BB: You ought to have written them down. EB: Yes, by all means. BB: If there was anything that you could change back, what would you change that’s now gone? EB: Well, if there was anything that I could change back I would have gone into preaching when I was 14 years old. And I went into the First World War without ever being a Christian. God wanted me to be a preacher when I was 14 years old, but I wanted to drink liquor and I put off preaching until I was about 22 years old. I would change that. BB: Is there anything that you would change in the community? EB: No, I doubt it. Just let her roll, just like it did. BB: Is there anything else you want to tell me? EB: Bless you. I don’t know much more little lad. The Lord blesses you. I never thought about anybody coming to talk to me about things like this because there are so many men that can tell you so much more than I could tell you. But there is nobody in this country much older than I am. BB: They say you are the oldest around? EB: I don’t know any men that are older than I am. I know one lady down here. No, not in this vicinity, I don’t know of any man that’s older than me. BB: And this is your mother? OB: This is my wife and she’s 81 years old. 14 �BB: What’s her name? EB: Ollie Blackburn. OB: I was Ollie Clawson. EB: She was a Clawson. OB: I waited through the war to marry him. EB: We were supposed to get married anytime, but I went to the war and left her here you know. BB: Were you raised here in Todd too? OB: No, I was raised in Watauga County. BB: In Watauga County? OB: Yes, this is Ashe County. EB: Yes, here we are across the line about a hundred feet. When you came up that road you were in Watauga; when you turned in to our house, why you are in Ashe County. BB: So you all live in Ashe County? EB: Just across the line. We pay our taxes on the Ashe side. BB: What was your childhood like? Did your mother teach you how to crochet and all? OB: She taught me how to sew and I sewed and made all my children’s clothes. During the Depression we had some pretty well to do folks and they gave us second hand clothes and I made them over for my children. Some of them got the prize for being the best-dressed in school there. EB: Out of second handed clothes. BB: During the Depression they got the best-dressed? EB: Yes, I guess it was during the Depression. They went to school well-dressed by ma working over old clothes, redoing them. BB: How long have you two been married? 15 �EB: Going on 54 years. We had a 50th anniversary three years ago this June. So this June we will have been married 54 years. BB: Have they all been good years? EB: All have been wonderful. Thank God, I would like to live them all over. Been good years. Ma’s been a darling. BB: How many grandchildren do you have? EB: Fourteen. BB: I bet you have a big Christmas don’t you? EB: Yes. Fourteen. And two great-grandchildren. BB: Do they all usually get home for Christmas? EB: Yes, usually. BB: What’s the difference in Christmas when you were small and Christmas now? EB: Oh, so much difference. When I was small if we got two sticks of candy and an orange we were well fixed. BB: Do you remember any great presents that you once got during Christmas? EB: No. I got a toy truck; as far back as I can remember and thought that was the greatest thing that could be delivered to anybody. OB: Tell him about your pistol. EB: Yes, I used to have a little gun when I was six years old. Lots of folks won’t let boys have pistols and I had a gun. I think this is the same one if I can find it here. OB: I guess it’s gone. EB: I had one like this when I was just a boy and I’d hunt with it you know. I would shoot grouse and rabbits when I was six years old. BB: So it’s a real pistol? EB: Oh, it’s a real .22 pistol. Break it down. That’s a real gun. Dangerous, it would kill you. Single barrel, a Stevens. 16 �BB: Do you still hunt? EB: I still hunt. BB: Do you still hunt with this? EB: No. I carry an automatic shotgun. BB: What do you think about the tourists? EB: Well, I think that they have ruined the mountains, is what I think of them. We can’t go anywhere and get anywhere but they do bring in some money but we were living well before they came. That’s not belittling them; that’s just what I think about them. BB: So you think that Beech Mountain and Sugar Mountain… EB: Yes. I think its hurt the morale of the country. I do. And that’s just what I think. That’s my personal opinion. BB: Well, I agree with you. EB: Yes. I think its hurt the morale of the country. I do. And that’s just what I think. That’s my personal opinion. BB: Well, I agree with you. EB: Thank you dear. Bless you darling. Just about ruined us. BB: I hate to see the mountains torn down too. I think it’s real sad. EB: Thank you honey. BB: Is there anything that you want to tell me? Just anything that you would want somebody to know about you as a man? EB: No, I didn’t do well enough to want anybody to know anything about me darling. BB: I think you being a preacher… EB: I’ve done my best on that line. But we got many preachers. BB: Do you baptize? EB: I do. Baptize and marry folks. 17 �BB: You have a license to marry? EB: I do have a license to marry, yes. And to baptize and to establish churches. BB: What was your education? You got as far as… EB: Oh, I wouldn’t know. I just…it pushed me to get through the seventh grade I guess. We just had three months of school you know, when I went to school. Always commenced in September and would be out by Christmas. And we had to walk three miles. We have to walk three miles when I went to school most of the time. BB: So you got about as far as the seventh grade? EB: Yes, I guess it pushed me to go through the seventh grade. BB: Learn enough just to read and write? EB: I can read and write. And I can… OB: Figure (mathematics). BB: I would like to come down to your church sometime. EB: Well, you ought to come darling. You ought to come. You ought to bring some friends. I want you to go up by and look it over darling before you leave here this evening. Open the door, it will not be locked. Just open the door and go in and look around. What God has done. BB: How long has that church been there? EB: Well, this one has not been there that long…I guess 38 or 40 years. That right ma? About 38 years. BB: Is this your first church? EB: Yes, but the first church was burned down over there. BB: I know a good question. Do you remember the first time you preached? The very first time that you preached? EB: No. I don’t remember the first time I ever got up and took a text and preached from it. But for years before I ever went out into the ministry, before I was ordained I would hold funerals you know. So many people would send for Uncle Ed you know, to come and hold funerals. But I can’t remember the first time. 18 �BB: What were the funerals like? EB: Well, they haven’t changed much. They have gotten finer, but the same mode and the same lines. When I was growing up we didn’t know anything about undertakers in the mountains here. Just neighbors, dress people and made their caskets and put them in the ground. BB: When was the first time that you can remember that you preached? EB: I can’t remember. Can’t remember the first time that I ever was called to a funeral. Wish I could. I would like to try and recall the feeling, but I can’t remember to save my life. I’ve had hundreds of them. BB: It wasn’t a good feeling I guess. EB: Wasn’t so good. I was scared. Still am. BB: Are you still scared? EB: Still scared. Scared to death. BB: Do you preach from a text or do you just get up and talk? EB: I preach right out of a book. Never write down a note or take a note and just read by chapter – what I’m going to preach from and go to preaching. If there is one certain verse in it that I want to dwell on and talk about, I pick out such and such verse in such and such chapter and tell my people all I know about it. BB: Do you all have Sunday school? EB: We do have Sunday school every Sunday. One of the finest in the county. BB: What time does preaching start? EB: Eleven o’clock. Every second and fourth Sunday. BB: So you only have preaching the second and fourth Sunday? Why is that? EB: Well, because we found it’s the best. And because my people are not… OB: Well, he preaches in other places. EB: Yes, I’m gone a lot of the time and that gives me a chance to preach here twice a month and go somewhere else two times. 19 �BB: Oh, so you go other places? EB: I go to other places. BB: Where do you usually go? EB: Well, the last meeting I was in was at High Point. Evangelical Methodist in High Point. And next to that one, I go anywhere they call for me…anywhere from Ohio to Pennsylvania. BB: You’ve been up to Pennsylvania? EB: Yes sure, give two meetings in Pennsylvania and two meetings in the city of Baltimore. BB: Well, thanks a lot. EB: Honey, have I been any help to you? BB: I think you have. EB: Have you? Do you? God bless you. (Gives a prayer) “Father in heaven, here’s a lovely, pretty boy. I’d give a billion dollars, God, if I could be like him. But it’s gone from us God. And now Lord we pray that as long as he lives let him remember the two old people, the Blackburn’s on the hill. Came in to have an interview with them and we wasn’t wise enough to give him much of an interview. After he leaves we’ll think of many things that happened to us that might have been amusing to him. I pray you will take good care of this little boy God, and make his successful in the world. Help him to be a Christian gentleman. Because if he gains the whole world and loses his soul, what would he give for that pearl of great price, which is his soul. Take good care of the little boy. In Jesus’s name we pray. Amen and amen. Bless you darling. You’re lovely.” End of interview 20 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4615ce05bbb84565ef0b344f0a035eb4.jpg 817b249715bed6fffbc7216c9a3995e5 Omeka Image File The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files. Width 244 Height 293 Bit Depth 8 Channels 3 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7cdc319b184689f75ef7c4c69e5fbddc.jpg de048c4d6d65cd672c31b574af86b508 Omeka Image File The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files. Width 235 Height 278 Bit Depth 8 Channels 3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Blackburn, Edward (interviewee) Ballock, Bill (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04, Reflects on Todd and Ashe County, 00:32, World War One Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Blackburn, March 2, 1973 Subject The topic of the resource Blackburn, Edward (1893-)--Interviews Todd (N.C.)--History--20th century Todd (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Clergy--North Carolina--Todd--Biography Railroads--North Carolina--Todd--History--20th century Lumber trade--North Carolina--Todd--History--20th century Description An account of the resource Edward Eugene Blackburn was born on August 29, 1893 to Alex (b. 1852 – d. June 1, 1926) and Rhoda Howell Blackburn (b. February 12, 1856 – d. December 6, 1934). He was married to Ollie Clawson Blackburn (b. July 29, 1893 – d. June 1985). He grew up in the Todd community of Ashe County and served in the U.S. Army during the First World War with the 318th Field Hospital of the 80th Division. He experienced combat in France, which is briefly mentioned in the interview. Many affectionately knew him as “Brother Ed” or “Uncle .” The Reverend Ed Blackburn and his wife took over the leadership of The Tabernacle, a non-­‐denominational Holiness church across the hill from his childhood home. This church later became the Blackburn Community Church, was originally started by his father around 1910. His uncle was U.S. Congressman Edmond Spencer Blackburn (b. September 22, 1868 – d. July 21, 1912) who served in 1901-03 and 1905-­07. During the interview Ed Blackburn talks about growing up in rural Ashe County. Topics include explaining the rules to a game called “dare base,” and his experience working at a grist meal and laying railroad track as a young man. He also discusses the railroad in Todd, timber stripping, religion, and family. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2-Mar-73 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 20 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Document Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 13:40:14 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Todd (N.C.) Ashe County childhood games Civil War folklore ministry railroad religion timber Todd Watauga County N.C. West Jefferson World War One https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2b8ff52594ba8c11ce4897d5c7a77998.mp3 5aaab0341314c24cf62e539863e2f7e7 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e2ff16b84bb951d71cfff050775c251f.mp3 87850752fb6c30aa10ba270932d65b0b https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/00eb4ea4c7c28041afbd5f8199de5234.pdf 97b38f175018b9645b0db1f59d45484f PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 235 Interviewee: J.O. Shell Interviewer: Barbara Greenberg 23 July 1974 BG: Barbara Greenberg JO: James O. Shell BG: This is a recording of Mr. J.O. Shell, done by Barbara Greenberg on July 23, 1974 at his son’s home in what area is this? JO: It’s Elk River. BG: Well, tell me Mr. Shell were you born and raised in this area? JO: No, I was born on Upper Shell Creek in Tennessee. And my father died when I was two months old and my mother, she moved back to the Heaton area. And I was principally raised in the Heaton area. BG: What year were you born? JO: I was born in 1892. BG: How many brothers and sisters did you have? JO: I had one whole sister, one half-sister, and four half-brothers. BG: Was Shell Creek, was that area named after your family? JO: Well, it’s been known as Shell Creek ever since I’ve known anything. My grandfather lived there and went to school. I went down there and went to school on up to Shell Creek for a while; stayed with my grandfather. BG: Do you remember very much about your grandfather? JO: Well, not too much. BG: What did he do for a living? JO: Well, he owned a farm up on Shell Creek. Worked on a farm. 1 �BG: Was your father a farmer also? JO: No, he was a carpenter. BG: Oh, was he? JO: Yes, he was a carpenter. I had part of his old tools until the ‘41 flood and I loved them. I had his toolbox and tools sitting out on the porch and it washed a part of the kitchen away and all his old tools away. BG: Boy! I hear the flood back then, was it in 1940 or was it ’41? JO: I believe it was ’41, but I’m not sure. BG: I’ve talked to several people who lived out in the Foscoe area and they told me that the flood really hit hard out there. JO: Oh, it was hard here. I can remember a hard one in 1901. But I can’t remember much about it because I was too young. BG: Did the flood of ’40 or ’41, did that affect many of the farmers around here? Did they have a real hard year that year? JO: Yes, it washed a lot of their stuff away. BG: Did anybody have any crops to sell or did they just barely have enough to feed their family? JO: I don’t know of anybody that had anything to sell. Don’t remember anyone. But I do know, remember it was stronger across the way. I had a good garden up there and it came and washed the land away and just left a rock bar. BG: How did your family decide how much of each crop they should plant each year? JO: Well, I don’t know really, they just decided about what they could really take care of. Back then people used horses you know, and plowed the ground with a horse. Some tried to plow with one horse, some of them with two. And they mostly tended their crop with a hoe. Back when I was a small boy. BG: I bet you worked in the fields a lot, since your family was smaller than a lot of the other families at that time. JO: I didn’t understand just what… BG: No, I’m just saying that you probably had to do a lot of work, a lot of chores yourself since 2 �your family was so much smaller, is that right? JO: Yes, yes. BG: What were some of the other chores that you had to do? JO: That was about the biggest thing that we did, was farm, but when I got to be old enough to drive a team, my stepfather, he had a yoke of oxen, and he would put me out hauling for those oxen. I’d make about $3 a day. I would give him six days and make $18 a week with that team. I thought we were doing well. BG: Can you describe a typical day for me when you had to go out and work the oxen? What time would you get up in the morning? JO: Oh, usually got up about four o’clock and got the horses fed, after that I drove the horses and I would get feeding, get up and go to feed about four o’clock in the morning. Eating breakfast started out in the dark and it would be dark when you got back that night. BG: When you came home that night, would dinner be all ready for you? JO: Oh, yes. And I can remember working at the Cranberry dome (iron ore that was mined in nearby Cranberry). And I worked ten-hour days. BG: How far was that to walk? JO: It was about, something over four miles each way. BG: Can you remember if there were ever any years when your family didn’t have enough food? JO: No, we always had food, except only during the 1901 flood I believe. Anyway, food got scarce then and we didn’t have much, couldn’t get anything one time. BG: Did your family plant their crops according to the moon? JO: Well, to some extent they did. BG: Can you remember any of the certain signs that were good for planting certain crops? JO: Well, I don’t remember just exactly but a lot of times, certain things they wanted to plant when the moon was new. And other things when it was an old moon. 3 �BG: When the Depression hit, what were you doing at this time? JO: In ‘30? BG: 1929, ’30 yes. JO: I was postmaster at that time. BG: When did you first become postmaster? JO: I was appointed in 1914, I believe in November. I forget what day in November. My commission is in there on the wall (in another room); you can go in there and look at it if you want to. BG: Great. In a little while maybe I can even take a picture of that. Well, tell me a little bit about you, when you were postmaster. What did you do? JO: Well, I worked about every day in the post office. But sometimes, I’d leave my wife and my daughter, when my daughter got old enough with the post office. And I got out and worked on a farm. And I can remember as I was always lazy about milking my cows and people teased me and said my cows would wait for me to milk them until after dark. BG: How many years were you postmaster? JO: Nearly 39. BG: 39 years, boy. And in which area? In Heaton? JO: Heaton, yes. The old building is there yet. Do you know where J.C. Ellis’s store is? BG: On the left as you’re going back towards Boone? JO: Boone, yes ma’am. The old post office is right in front of his on the right hand side of the road. It’s there yet. That old building is. BG: Let me see, what was the political scene like at that time? How did people tend to vote? JO: Well, just like they do now, but you know we didn’t have any radios, television like now. You watch news right off and sometimes it would be three or four days before we would get the news. I can remember when Woodrow Wilson was first elected. There was a friend of mine, he was about my age and we were kind of good friends you know, and together quite a bit. And I knew he was a strong Republican you know. Just after we heard the news that Woodrow Wilson had been elected to his first term. I saw him coming down the road. I stuck my head out, just waiting until he got past the door and stuck my head out around, out the door and hollered 4 �“Hurrah for Woodrow Wilson.” He turned back and looked over his should and said, “Hurrah for a dad burn fool!” (both laugh). That really tickled me you know. I just fell back and laughed. And then later on, after he became a man Mike changed from a strong Republican to a strong Democrat. But he and I were always friends. BG: Were the majority of the people Democrats at that time? JO: No. Most of the folks in Avery County were Republicans and are yet. BG: Was the Heaton area, was that Avery County at that time? JO: Yes. At that time it was. But at one time it was Mitchell County, that was when I was just a small child. Avery County was established in 1910 or 1911. I forget which. BG: Did many people in this area have slaves at that time? JO: Have what? BG: Slaves. JO: Sleighs? The children had quite a few. I can remember a mail carrier that carried the mail from Boone to Elk Park. It gets slick and bad sometimes and he’d carry it with horses on a sled. Jeff Billings was the mail carrier at that time. And he usually just had a small team of horses. He would hook them to that sled and carry the mail on a sled. And then another time there was a route from Heaton to Beech Creek. My brother-in-law, he carried the mail from Heaton to Beech Creek. He’d tell me about snow drifts being so deep that a lot of times he’d be walking there, he’d come to a snow drift that he would get a hold of the horse and pull him through that drift. BG: Boy, that’s some deep snow. JO: The winters back then, you know, were even harder than they are now. BG: I wonder why all of these changes are taking place like that? JO: Well, I think the Bible is fulfilled because, you know, the Bible says that time will come that you can’t tell winter from summer. It seems to me that its getting much lighter than they used to be. BG: A lot of people really believe that that’s what’s happening. Was there many “crooked carrying-on” in the political elections? JO: Well, it was about lit it is now, as far as I know. People… 5 �BG: Somebody was telling me that they didn’t go out and buy your vote with money. They would go out and then take you to the polls and make you sick. JO: Oh, I never did get drunk enough to know anything about that. I never id drink any whiskey much. I remember getting drunk when I was a little bitty boy. My mother let me go over to my grandfather’s to stay overnight, my sister and I. And she told us to come home the next morning early. My grandfather he was a good religious man but he always kept a jug, an old stone jug sitting under his bed with a little whiskey in it. And he’s take it down before breakfast every morning so he got his whiskey and picked him up a glass. He passed it to me, I just hung on to it and drunk until he took it from me. So good you know and I wasn’t used to it, and so I got so sick, my sister couldn’t take me home. It was way up in the day, about 10 or 11 o’clock until I was able to go home. I didn’t know any better and I just kept drinking. That’s the only, well, I remember getting drunk one time after that. I was a small boy. I wasn’t but…Sunday school teacher. Did you hear him sing at Elk Park Sunday nights? I got a couple of other fellers and went out one night and had a pint of whiskey. We drank that pint of whiskey and all got kind of high on it. That was my last. Well, another time I stayed with one of my friends one night. One of them got so drunk he couldn’t get home and so we had to stay all night. And next morning I went home and felt so bad. And my stepfather had a big old mule and he told me he wanted to plow that mule that day. And I thought well, could I ever make it? But I finally got the old mule and wen over to the field and after I was there I got to work, I got hot, and I got better and worked all day. But that was my last time I ever got the old saying is “high.” BG: Did a lot of the people around here used get, as you say, “high?” JO: Well, no more than it is now, I don’t think. BG: Let’s go back to your early life on the farm a little bit. Did you and your sisters, were the jobs – the chores, were they divided that you had to do a certain think or did you all work together? JO: No, my stepfather would go off and tell us to do certain tasks, give us a certain thing and we usually always got it done. If we didn’t we were afraid we’d get a whipping. BG: Did you and your sister alternate jobs? Like you did something one time and the next time it had to be done and she would do it? JO: No, we usually just did little jobs both together. Of course, she helped in the kitchen you know, and I didn’t too much. BG: What type farm machinery, farm equipment did you use then? 6 �JO: We just used old one horse plows and some two-horse turn plows, hillside plows you know mostly. And then we used hoes for the rest. BG: When modern farm machinery came out, what kind of effect did it have on the farmer? JO: Well, on some of them, it was quite a help. But some didn’t farm enough to buy it and they had to farm the old fashion way. BG: Did it seem to give the farmer a lot more leisure time or did he have to spend a lot of time taking care of his new equipment? JO: It seemed like he worked quite a bit. BG: Did your family ever grow any crops, any cash crops? JO: I don’t remember it. Had many things to sell. Now, I raised beans after I got grown. I raised them for several years. I sold them of course and then I sued to raise cabbage to sell. BG: Would you sell your crops to big buyers or would you sell it to small buyers? JO: Well, usually just small buyers would come around with a wagon or a truck you know. Buy it. After I got older and raised more stuff, there was quite a lot of people hauling the stuff to Knoxville and sold it. BG: Did they get much better prices down there? JO: They would get a much better price down there than they could around here. BG: Would all the farmers get together and just make one big haul to Knoxville or would everybody go separately and take their own? JO: Why, they would usually have enough stuff just to take a load of their own, you know. We used trucks. Of course we traded down around Johnson City and Elizabethton some back in the horse and wagon days. They hauled it on a wagon. BG: Did your neighbors help you harvest your crops? JO: Well, some. They would, back in those days you know. They would clear a piece of land, and they would get a certain date for a log rolling and a lot of the men in the community would come and help pile the logs you know. And you would always fix up a good dinner for them and have a good time. I remember I was going to a corn shucking one night after I was married, after I was grown and was shucking corn and somebody hit me in the head with an ear of corn. I never did find out who it was. I don’t know whether they did it accidently or whether they did it on purpose. 7 �BG: Can you remember any other stories about any particular corn shuckings when something funny happened? JO: Well, I remember we used to go to several but I don’t remember any specific accidents that happened much. BG: Did people give rewards for people who shucked the most corn or did you play games or anything like that? JO: Well, sometimes they would play games. They never got any rewards that I remember. BG: It seems like families used to be closer together then, and the neighbors used to help out more? Could you tell me a little bit about that? JO: Well, if a person…if one certain person was building a new house you know, the neighbors would come and help him on the building. And you don’t see any of that anymore. They always have to do their own work. Nobody will help you free much. Of course people do yet, you know some. But they were better to help each other seems to be, back several years ago than they are now. BG: Where did you go to school, around here? JO: Well, we had a school over at Heaton. I went there until 1910. I believe it was and then I went to Melvin one year, down at Melvin College. But I had not completed high school at that time. And in 1911, we had a high school, the first high school that was ever in Avery County. I believe it was 1911 or 1912, I’m not sure. And I went to high school one year at Elk Park on the side of the hill. BG: Can you describe it to me, what did it look like? JO: Well, I can’t remember too much of what it looked like. But I can tell you who the principal was. Professor Pearson was his name. But I don’t remember his given name. BG: How did he teach, if there were so many different grades in this one classroom, how would he teach everybody something different at the same time? JO: Well, they just have different classes, you know. And while one class was doing one thing then he’d be teaching another class something else. BG: Yes. Did you used to write on slates? JO: Yes, we used to have old slates, you know and slate pencils? 8 �BG: Penny pencils? JO: No, I don’t know if they were. I don’t know what they called them, they didn’t have any wood on them, you know they were jut a little pencil you marked with on the slates. BG: They didn’t have any wood on the pencil, it was just like lead? JO: They were chalk you know, they used a blackboard and used chalk a lot. Can you remember seeing chalk? BG: Chalk? JO: Chalk? To write with. BG: White chalk, yes, we used that. JO: Well, we used that a lot back in my days, when I was going to school. BG: What type of classes did you learn when you were in school? What subjects? JO: I studied arithmetic and algebra, history and geography, and I don’t remember what else. BG: What type of games did you and your friends used to play at your recess time? JO: Oh, we played ball. They hit the ball and then they would run and if they got across before they go to the based, why they were out. Somebody else took their place. And then we had another one called “Bull Pen.” I know my uncle, he was a preacher, but he came to the school house and played Bull Pen with us. But I don’t remember too much about how we played it. BG: Did you used to make your own balls? JO: Oh yes, made it out of cotton thread. BG: Did you wrap leather around the balls, is that what you used to do? Somebody was telling me they would take their mother’s old shoes that were all worn out and wrap leather around the balls to make them last longer? JO: Well, I think they did that some, but usually back when I was going to school they just were thread ball. Just used cotton thread and rolled them. BG: Was it hard to make one? JO: No, no. 9 �BG: Did the girls play these games with you or… JO: Sometimes they would play ball some. I remember they used to have a game they would call “Dare Base,” they played that quite a bit. BG: Did a lot of the town people around here used to meet at one certain store in town and sit around and tell folktales and things like that? JO: I remember up there in Heaton, they used to do that and called it “Rover’s Story.” A little bit you know around there, some people called it “Rover’s Story.” BG: That’s a good name for it I guess. Were any of your neighbors or your family, were any of you all involved in playing banjos and making music? JO: No. None of my family did it. I had an uncle named James Heaton, he was a merchant, wholesale and retail merchant there in Heaton and he enjoyed singing mighty well. He usually always had singing for about two or three times a week. About once a week in the middle of the week and then on Sunday and Saturday. And he preached quite a bit. BG: Did you feel it was, or did the people feel that it was important to be real active in the community? JO: Be active? BG: Active, yes. JO: Well, I guess it was about then like it is now. People are about the same. BG: It seems like it would, the more active you were, the more it would help your political career and everything like that. JO: I can remember Eddie Ray’s brother, and he lived up there at Heaton. After they put in a Trailways bus, he would see that bus come in and say “Yonder, here comes the big bus.” That was Homer, Homer, Jr. Eddie Ray’s brother. BG: Does he live around, does he live…where now? JO: I don’t know where he’s at now. He must be in California. He’s still in the service. BG: Can you tell me the different between the things you did in the summertime compared to the wintertime? Was the summer a lot easier, even though you had all your farming to do or was it easier to fight off the cold in the wintertime? JO: Well, of course we didn’t have so much work to do, you know. Everybody burned wood 10 �mostly then. And had to get out and cut a lot of wood when it was cold and bad to get it in. I remember that we always had a fireplace and we would, if there was a fire, we would get a buckeye and cut it for back sticks. That was a stick to burn in the back and the other wood such as hickory and sugar tree and maybe oak and so on, for to burn in front of that back stick. That old back stick would be green buckeye and it would burn, last a long time. BG: Burn a lot slower. JO: Yes. BG: Can you tell me something about the houses back then? JO: Well, there were not many people that had very good houses. Just two or three roomed houses about what they mostly had. Some of them only had one room. And you never saw any carpets on the floor very often. BG: Really? I thought that a lot of the ladies used to weave their own carpet? JO: I never knew of anybody weaving any carpet but, I can remember the spinning wheels. They used to take wood and make yarn out of it. And use yarn for whatever they wanted to make like socks and so on. BG: A lot of the people raised their own sheep then? JO: Oh yes, there was quite a few sheep then but there are not that many now. BG: I don’t know, why do people not raise sheep anymore around here? JO: Well, dogs go so bad until I had to sell. I’ve raised sheep I guess, for 30 years. And gos got so bad, they killed the sheep, so I had to sell mine. Sold them two years, two or three years ago. I haven’t raised any in about three years. BG: Can you remember what the attitude of the people was when the first cars came to the area? JO: Yes, I can remember that people, they thought it was something great you know. And I can remember the first one I ever rode in. One of my friends that lived in Banner Elk bought one of the first cars that was around. I’d been somewhere walking and he picked me up between Heaton and Elk Park and gave me a ride and that’s something I can remember the first time I ever drove one too. Back then you didn’t have to have any license, you just bought your car and went ahead and used it. It was like with horses you know. But that didn’t last too long until you had to have a tag for each car. 11 �BG: How fast would those first cars go? JO: About 20 miles per hour. That was a pretty good speed. BG: Well, how did most people feel towards the car? Did they welcome it? JO: I think so. I think most of them appreciated them. BG: Can you think of any specific changes that started coming into use? JO: Well, I don’t know of anything special that happened. Of course people began to buy you know quick as they, people didn’t have money then that they have got now. And they would buy a car when they got able. BG: What about the railroads? Can you remember the first railroads? JO: Yes. I can remember a little narrow gauge that came from Johnson City to Boone. And I don’t remember, I believe it was the 1940 flood that washed away so much of it between Cranberry to Johnson City until about oh, I don’t know. Its been discontinued I guess about 20 years. They called it E.T. & W.N.C, the East Tennessee and Western North Carolina Railroad, but most people called it the “Arbuckle.” BG: what was the train ride like? Was it hot and smoky and anything like that? JO: No, no, it was a mighty good one. People you know riding the train. Sometimes they would have a special trip. I can remember going to Boone one time on a special trip. Just for the trip you know, no business. Just for the trip. BG: Did you take many trips that weren’t for business very often or did you usually go places for business purpose only? JO: Mostly for business purposes. BG: Can you tell me the difference in a weekday compared to a weekend? JO: I have to understand just what you mean by that. BG: Well, did you do farm work on the weekends the same as on the weekday? JO: Oh, yes. People used to work six days a week. Now they only work five. They used to work ten hours a day and now they only work eight. BG: Did everybody in the community go to church on Sunday? 12 �JO: No. But people went to church very little back then in those days. Of course, there were not near as many people as they are now you know. There just were not that many people like there are now. But they attended church very little back then. Like they do now, about the same amount. BG: Were the church services different then compared to how they are now? JO: Well, not too much. Preacher usually preached the Bible you know, couldn’t be much difference. BG: Some people have told me that…what was I going to say? Oh well. What were funerals like? JO: Well, they were different when somebody died in the community. Somebody made a coffin, they didn’t go to a store and buy it. There wasn’t any place to buy it. Somebody would make it. They would be buried in a homemade coffin. Now they wouldn’t know what a homemade coffin was I don’t guess. BG: I don’t guess so. JO: I used to remember this fellow named John Harmon back in the Beech Mountain section that made coffins. He usually kept a few made ahead, you know, for people. But a lot of times they would make your coffin after they died. BG: Were the graveyards scattered throughout the area or did people like to be buried on their own land? JO: Well, some often wanted to be buried on their own land but now the graveyards in Heaton, I can remember the first one that was buried there. And it’s a pretty big cemetery now. But there are a lot of differences you know, in funerals in those days and today. People just had to take them to church in a wagon, with a horse and a wagon. I can remember when my mother died. They took her to church in a wagon. That was back, I guess in the ‘30s or ‘40s. BG: Were there not any laws about where you could bury people and where you couldn’t bury people? JO: They used to have cemeteries around certain places in the community, you know, they would all have a name. Now line the one up there at Heaton, one named the Heaton Graveyard and there’s another one across on the other side of the river called Smith Graveyard, and another one back over on the mountains a little further called (inaudible) Graveyard. You see people mostly named them after people that were first buried there. They would start their own graveyard, you know. BG: So they were not really like church graveyards then? JO: No. 13 �BG: Did they have a service at the…like a graveside service or did they hold the service at the church? JO: They had both. They would have a funeral at the church and then the preacher usually talked some at the graveyard. BG: Was your family involved in any crafts in any way? JO: Not that I remember. BG: The crafts that people speak of today were really just your livelihood in a way. Its how you kept going you know, making your own clothes and spinning and weaving and all that. JO: People used to make about all their clothing you know. I can remember a fellow down at Shell Creek whose name was, he was a Miller and his wife had knit a pair of socks. He said, “I’ll give you a quarter for the pair of socks,” Yes, I guess you would like to cheat your wife out of a few cents. I can take them down to Woodrow’s store and get 25 cents for them. Now, I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but they told it to an old gentleman. BG: The mother used to knot all the socks for her family? JO: Oh, yes. BG: How many pair of socks would you have? JO: Oh, two or three I guess. Didn’t have many. Just enough for a change you know. Of course some would have more than others. BG: How many pairs of pants would you have? Just those that you worked in everyday and then another pair for Sunday? JO: Yes. I can remember when I was just a boy. Usually a boy wore knee pants and he was sporting a pair of pants and a little shirt. One Sunday a couple of boys would come to spend the Sunday with me and we went swimming just a little ways over the hill on what they called “Gator Branch.” I noticed that one of the boys he was in a little hurry to get his shirt and pants on before I had mine. I took out up the road after him, he was about a quarter mile ahead. He got ready and just threw my pants way off above the road on an old brush pile. I had to crawl in that brush and get my pants. BG: Did you get him back? JO: Oh, I threw rocks at him all the way back. 14 �BG: Can you think of some more old stories of experiences that you had that would be interesting to us? JO: Well, I don’t know of anything that would be very interesting. Of course, you know it wouldn’t be interesting to me anyway. After I got to be older why I had the experience of going to Georgia quite a lot. I bought a farm down there, between Greensboro and Madison. I bout a 326 and ¾ acre farm down there for $3,300 I believe it was. I kept it from 1927 until about 16 year I think it was. I would go down there every three or four times a year. We kept renters there, kept cattle down there. I would buy cattle down there and bring them back here and sell them. And I had quite an experience going to Georgia and back. BG: You own quite a bit of land today don’t you still? JO: Well, they have my tax at about 471 acres. And than a couple of lots at Heaton. BG: What were land taxes like back when you first started buying land? JO: Oh, they were cheap then. Land was cheap too. BG: How much did you pay for most of the land that you own now? JO: Now, this house, you see what it is. About 30 acres, maybe about 33 acres of land was the first I ever bought here on Elk River. I bought it for 1,800 dollars. BG: 30 acres for 1,800 dollars? JO: And then I bought another 100 acres gross on the other side of the mountain called Fall Creek. I got it at a sale. A man owed them 2,000 dollars for the mortgage to somebody else and he didn’t pay for it, they put it up for a public sale and I got those 100 acres of land for 500 dollars. When UI went to the sale there wasn’t anybody there and I thought that would bid against me. His name was Ed Lewis, and when the man brought the sale up he said not to start for less than 500 dollars. He turned around to Mr. Lewis and said “What will you give me for it?” I said, “Oh, I reckon I’ll give you 500 dollars.” So I got 100 acres of land for 500 dollars, he had been asking 2,000 dollars for it. “The buck stops here.” BG: The land down here where the Elk Falls are? JO: No, I own some land below the falls. BG: You don’t? JO: No, that belongs to the government. 15 �BG: I went swimming down there. It was so cold, I did it and every muscle in my body froze up. Did you go down to the big one? Did you go down to that? JO: Yes. My next-door neighbor went down there and he jumped off the top. That is what about 65 feet isn’t it? BG: I’ve seen people jump off. Not me! JO: I wouldn’t want to do that! BG: Didn’t you tell me about the mailman who used to ride ½ down the falls and jump the rest of the way? What’s the story about the mailman? JO: I don’t remember, but I do remember a mailman who was carrying mail to Beech Creek and one day he came to eat, got his mail, then started back to Beech Creek and the water was up pretty high. It had been raining hard. Along by night he came back with a wet mail bag. He said the creek was so high it swept it away and he found it down the creek. So I took the mail u of that bad, fried it, and delivered it. Every piece of it, then sent the bag back. BG: Well, what happened to the mailman? JO: He didn’t get hurt, he went on. I’ve got a piece that was written about him, rowing the branch. I’ve got it, I’ll let you read id you would like to. BG: Let’s talk some more now. JO: He never would ride a horse. He walked. He would just about run downhill. But he walked fast the entire time. He just had one hand, lost one hand back in his young days. BG: Can you give me a comparison of your feelings of life compared to today to when you were growing up? JO: Well, I don’t think it was any better. Of course there were not so many people back then and it seemed that things were not as hurried when I was young. BG: Do you think having a small community school was better than having the larger schools in big areas now? JO: I think you can have better schools by having them small, but it seems like now such as Avery County. At one time they had three schools, and now they have one. People have to come from Beech Creek and Plum to Newland for school. That’s awful far for them to travel to high school. But still people think it’s better; I guess they think it is because they still continue them all in one. 16 �BG: Would you say that life is easier now or harder? JO: Well, people don’t work as hard as they used to back then. But it seemed that people were stronger then and could enjoy it better. You know the Bible speaks of a generation that will get weaker and modern. It seemed to be that its getting that way, don’t you? Of course you know people are a lot wiser than they used to be, because they didn’t know how to make automobiles and airplanes, and like that. End of interview 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Shell, J.O. (interviewee) Greenberg, Barbara (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13, Election of Woodrow Wilson, 01:28, Heaton Postmaster Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Oliver (J.O. Shell), July 23, 1974 Subject The topic of the resource Shell, James (1891-)--Interviews Farm life--North Carolina--Avery County--History--20th century Avery County (N.C.)--History--20th century Avery County (N.C)--Social life and customs--20th century Description An account of the resource James Oliver Shell was born on January 26, 1891 in Shell Creek, Tennessee where his grandfather owned a farm and worked as a carpenter. His father died when he was two months old, so his mother reared the children living with her father. Mr. Shell had one sister, a half-­‐sister, and four half-­‐brothers. As a young man James O. Shell moved to the Heaton community of Avery County North Carolina and was a farmer and served as the postmaster in Heaton from 1914 to about 1953. He died on July 4, 1980 at the age of 88. During the interview James O. Shell reflects on working his farm, local politics, and playing baseball as a youth. He discusses log rollings, corn shuckings, and the how neighbors helped each out. Some other topics he discusses are Tweetsie Railroad, homemade coffins, local cemeteries and playing baseball. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell, James Oliver Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Jul-74 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 17 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 14:04:46 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Shell Creek (T.N.) Avery County (N.C.) Avery County cemetery coffins corn shucking Education Elk Park ET & WNC railroad farming Heaton local politics postmaster railroad rural mail delivery Tennessee Tweetsie Railroad