1 50 3 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/31cf32a13c8fb7d1f7f2d4e7b2e0a37b.pdf 8a9144eb9272b4176efb321d6c425512 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Ambrose Brennan, Major (Retired) U.S. Army 1957-1982 Vietnam War October 12, 2012 Christian Quinn: This is Christian Quinn. The date is October 12, 2012, we are in Waxhaw, North Carolina. Today I will be interviewing Ambrose Brennan born on February 5, 1939, I will be conducting this interview as a class project for American military history at Appalachian State University, lets get started. What was your branch of service? Ambrose Brennan: infantry QUINN: what was your rank? BRENNAN: I started off as a second lieutenant and I retired as a major QUINN: Where did you serve? BRENNAN: Ft. Benning, republic of south Korea, Ft Bragg, republic of south Vietnam; Ft. Bragg; Ft. Benning; Stauffenenburg, West Germany; [Interruption by another person] Ft. Lewis; Pleiku, Vietnam; Da Nang Vietnam; Lockheed, Vietnam; Punji, Vietnam; Bandar, Vietnam; A Shau Valley in Vietnam; Dak To, Vietnam; Riverdale, Maryland in a reserve component; Ft. Campbell, Kentucky; Indianapolis, Indiana; Frankfurt, Germany; Ft McPherson, Georgia, and then I retired. QUINN: All right, where you drafted or did you enlist? BRENNAN: I was accepted and sworn in at the United States Military Academy QUINN: Went the ROTC route? Brennan: United States Military Academy, took the oath of office as a cadet, bang your subject to uniform code of military justice. QUINN: where were you living at the time? BRENNAN: Bronx, New York QUINN: what was your reason for joining? BRENNAN: I became aware and an admirer of a Lt Col. In my junior ROTC program who had been to West Point and he had flunked out, he was a paratrooper word war 2 veteran a really sharp guy a great catholic man, great family man, and I thought that if he 1 �flunked out and I could make it through maybe I could you know emulate some of the qualities that he had in the service, and I was not surrounded but there were few others cadets at the school I went to that went to the naval academy and to west point and they were really high quality people so at the age of I guess about sixteen maybe fifteen I decided that I should go to the naval academy and fly jets off carriers and be an aeronautical engineer, but I was colorblind so I had to go to the other school. QUINN: so why did you pick the service branch you joined? BRENNAN: well the service branch that’s another thing really the infantry, you know in the mind of an eighteen year old or nineteen year old young man as I was I was vaguely aware of these other branches but probably influenced by you know what I knew about the army which is mostly from movies I didn’t really recognize those other branches so infantry was really the only choice for me. QUINN: do you recall your first days in service? BRENNAN: yeah of course the first days in service are at Ft. Benning your going through infantry officer basic course which was at the time 8 weeks and you know it’s a course to prepare you to be a second lieutenant of infantry and to be a platoon leader and maybe a little bit about being a company commander. The course was not hard you just have to go through it learning all the weapons, fire all the weapons, land navigation. All the infantry trades and all the other I would call them administrative courses so it wasn’t difficult and there was a good spirit among these lieutenants I was going through the west pointers were blended with rotc cadets and we had a good time going through it and than we went from there right to airborne and right to ranger from there and than my first assignment was in south Korea as a platoon leader so I remember quite a bit from that yeah. QUINN: so what war or wars did you serve in? BRENNAN: well now they have classified the cold war so I guess the cold war started when you might say officially when Winston Churchill made his speech about the descendants of the iron curtain so that would have been 47, 1947, but the only shooting war I was in was the Vietnam war, the war in Vietnam which basically started, we started putting soldier in there in probably 1955 I didn’t get there until 1963 and I went back again in 66 and 67 and than of course the cold war was over when the Berlin wall came down basically in 1989 so the cold war lasted from 47 to 89 and than we had gone on to this other war I retired in 82 now the country is faced with this other war of Muslims who are basically Osama bin laden declared war against the united states in 1998 and so I guess you can say that is the official declaration of the Muslim war against the united states against the west and that is ongoing now and will probably be ongoing for 2 or 3 hundred more years QUINN: do you remember arriving, and what it was like when you got there? 2 �BRENNAN: yeah, and of course as a second lieutenant lets not talk necessary arriving at ft benning for training but arriving in your unit your anxious because you don’t know if you can fulfill the responsibilities that have been given to you or awarded to you as a second lieutenant. You have been trained and you have been commissioned but the real army, you haven’t really been in the real army and your trying to find your footing with your commander, the company commander, the first sergeant the other lieutenants in the unit but more importantly your platoon sergeant and your squad leaders and the men in your platoon so your thrust into a new situation you’ve been prepared very well for it, there is still quite an anxiety I think I felt but that anxiety works its self out over the first few weeks once you get involved in unit training and your responsible to give classes and to lead the platoon in filed training, in everything the platoon is doing but specifically with field training so yes I think the first couple of weeks you’re a little anxious to find your footing and particularly with your platoon sergeant that you have a relationship of trust and mutual respect with him but gradually if you understand that you can just work through it but there is a little bit of anxiety as you go in QUINN: tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences starting out BRENNAN: starting out… QUINN: or from anywhere BRENNAN: well one of the most important maybe not necessary a memorable experience I was blessed by having two people, two key people around me at the time, the first one was a weapons platoon leader who was an ocs graduate a veteran of the Korean war he was 9 years older than I was he was a first lieutenant he had been a e7 during the war and had come back from the Korean war in which he had won a silver star and he was from east Tennessee and he was a weapons platoon leader and he showed me how to be a lieutenant in every way in how I conducted myself, what we did for pt on revally runs, on how to conduct training, how to organize a lesson plan, how to research classes and conduct classes, and how to organize the company for training which is essential because that is really all a rifle company does is train for combat so all these training sessions had to have some linkage to them they have to be organized over a period sequentially over months and the specific training courses had to be assigned to either lieutenants or sergeants to give and that whole mechanism, the whole process of how to train a rifle company is a really important process well this guy knew it backwards and forwards and taught me how to do it and directed me when I was wrong and I think that was probably the most important things that went on with me during the first six months and the other part of it is the first sergeant if their was an ideal first sergeant this man was ideal his name is James a smith and he was a big tall drink of water from south Carolina very correct in every manner in which he dealt with commissioned officers always stood at attention when you were talking to him but what he was doing really was training lieutenants without them recognizing they were being trained which is one of the primary duties of a non-commissioned officer to train a lieutenant and to be in total cooperation with him but not really letting on that the lieutenant was being trained and not the sergeant so it really is an art form for NCOs’ so I think that was probably the 3 �most important activity that went on really for the first 8months 10 months that I was a platoon leader and that man went on to have quite an interesting career in special forces and I really didn’t keep tabs on him till about a couple of years ago and finally I got to see him before he died, he died last year a hell of a soldier a great guy and I’m so glad I got to see him few times before he died now let me see if there is another…..well I guess another key experience, memorable experience in a 1964 I worked with a guy named Charlie beckworth, Charlie beckworth was a one of kind, kind of guy, we were in the s3 section of the 7th special forces group, Charlie convinced the group commander to let him organize a group training up in the mountains of north Carolina Pisgah national forest and to this day he picked me and a couple of other captains and a captain form the British special air service and his sergeant, sergeant smith, to go up and set up the training which included land navigation, night compass work, rappel, mountain work with ropes , aviation and physical training for the entire special forces group ending up with a six day escape and evasion problem for the group members. Now the terrain in Pisgah national forest is such it was very exhausting, very physically demanding effort and I would say that was probably one of the best training exercises I had ever been part of and in my case I was one of the instructors and as a young captain I think that was very, it set a benchmark in my mind for how training should be conducted at least for special forces and how training should be conducted for infantry and than course Charlie and I parted company he went to one school and I went to another and I think that was another highlight in my career. QUINN: do you recall the day your service ended? BRENNAN: absolutely, now I was on a parade field on McPherson Georgia with my wife in attendance with my second daughter and my son, there was a short I think small parade there were about six retirees a colonel, two or three lieutenant colonels myself, and a sergeant major and we stood there on the field they pinned a medal on each one of us and thanked us for our service and that was it we went home, and that was the end of our active duty QUINN: so you were awarded that medal, what medals were you awarded BRENNAN: oh god QUINN: you don’t have to name them all, just some of the ones that mean a lot BRENNAN: well I was awarded the bronze star with v device, purple heart, about 4 meritorious service medals, two or three army commendation medals, and of course ranger tab, airborne wings, the others were service ribbons which are awarded if you are in particular place at a particular time in my case it was Vietnam there was about 4 or 5 service ribbons that are awarded when you are there you know I think that is it. QUINN: after your service ended what did you do the days and weeks afterword? 4 �BRENNAN: it’s kind of frustrating the days and weeks before several months lets say six months or longer before, you know I had my resume cracked up and handed it in two or three different resumes and I tried to scout out different jobs in the Atlanta area where we were located I don’t think I went on any interviews after I got out of the service of course I didn’t have a job I had to get a job and continued to pursue writing letters with resumes trying to make contact with various people I think during that period of time I probably got one or two interviews but It did not result in employment so I applied for every job I could find at ft McPherson as a department of the army civilian and I went down to ft McPherson about every two weeks and looked on the bulletin board to find jobs that I knew I probably could do and in the mean time my wife was working so we weren’t in the best financial posture so one of the things going on in the family it was kind of frustrating but gradually I finally opened up the newspaper one morning after about eight months and I said no matter what job I find I’m gonna put my finger on a job I’m gonna get that job today and as it turned out it was a job selling knifes and stem work………..door to door, and I got myself outfitted to try and do that and I can tell you I am the most unsuccessful door to door salesman that the world has ever seen and while I was doing that after about a month and a half of doing that I said again I’m gonna put my finger on a job I can do and it was the delivery of the Atlanta journal constitution, I went over and talked to the guy he called me about two or three days latter and gave me a route well the one good thing about delivering newspapers is that there is work to do everyday, Sunday in particular get up about 3 o clock go get your papers organize your papers and than you hop in your car load them up hop in your car and go deliver them and have them all delivered by 615. So I did that for a little while and than I was, one of the guys had seen I had applied for a job in what amounted to d3 to desk ops of ft McPherson and he called me and I don’t think that we had an interview he knew me so a worked it out so that I had got this job I applied for and got it that put me in a whole different level of operation I was a project manager for a national level exercise and so it placed me in a position where me and my team had to go to a nagathios tank in the pentagon or down to mcdill at that time it would be called recon about once a month and in the process of doing that over about a six month period I ran into some connections in Washington and another contractor up there offered me a job to move my family up there to take an analysis job up there in support of an army software project, at any rate I had promised my family I would never move from Atlanta because we had moved around so much I took a blood oath with them in Frankfurt and than id just asked them if they wanted to go and they all said yeah lets go to Washington so we moved the family up there and had this job and several years later my family was complaining to me about the traffic and I said well you guys told me you wanted to move up to Washington I was content to stay in Georgia and they said a well dad we lied always those are some things that happened along the way QUINN: during all that how did your service and you know experience in the military affect your life, how did it help you? I’m sure in many ways BRENNAN: well ill have to say that your fundamental personality, fundamental values are engendered by your family and your family surroundings in my case my father was an atheist and my mother was a catholic so I was raised a catholic and I went to catholic 5 �school and the catholic school and catholic church and than Christian brothers who taught me in elementary school and as well as high school all that forms in the child a basic personality and an environment of outlook so after I had been I went to military school for high school military boarding school, catholic military boarding school and after having being there for awhile I just thought the logical thing for me, now because my parents didn’t have any money for college the logical thing for me was to go to a warrior service academy so I started of with the naval academy than of course WestPoint, went to marine academy, coast guard academy, the air force academy was not in existence at the time and the new York maritime academy, I think had been into college, and in the mix of all those colleges and in moving through that I finally got into west point and of course the high school military environment and than WestPoint the environment there they put the points and they polish up in there own way the value systems that your family your mother and father and your church have started you out on and they Polish those values up and point you in a direction of leadership of soldiers and all of that mixture of events in a persons life that carries totally on through your entire life that forms the basis of who you are, what you do, how you deal with everyone else, and that motivates you in whatever your doing and whatever duties you have you learn as part of that basis that you are going to perform each duty your assigned or each responsibility that you take on in the best way you can and the most perfect way you can and you get into a habit of performing even the littlest task maybe something that doesn't seem on the surface as important maybe as something lofty but if you begin to perform that task as best you can that idea that process within you allows you to be given more responsibility and perform higher and larger tasks should you be allowed, should you even be afforded that opportunity as you go along so I would say my family my schooling my elementary school my church my high school and WestPoint provided a structure of values and exposed me to a value system but I had to apprehend, had to grasp those things and search them out in my own life. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/40704e9086df45dfb738dfdddc5fdee9.mp3 d10fe1e40495f10dc7683499ce5e8a79 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 59.1 KB 26.9 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Major (retired) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quinn; Christian Brennan; Ambrose Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Quinn, Christian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Brennan, Ambrose Interview Date 10/12/2012 Number of pages 6 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:29:13 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 264dfb763cd2a14c0e58f5235412c0ca 7d12063eaaa732e607f5293fb58f3165 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Brennan_Ambrose_20121012_transcript_M 5018_Brennan_Ambrose_20121012_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ambrose Brennan, Major (Retired) [October 12, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brennan, Ambrose Quinn, Christian Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Major Ambrose Brennan, born in 1939, entered the infantry after graduating from the US Military Academy. He didn't really consider any other branch, he just wanted to do what they did in the movies. The majority of his service was during the Cold War and he says the only "shooting war" he served in was Vietnam. He was awarded a myriad of medals, including a purple heart. Subject The topic of the resource Brennan, Ambrose Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 United States Interviews Personal narratives, American Cold War infantry major purple heart US Military Academy Vietnam War https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/743715ab18c5681888859a72b26a6ff1.pdf e7e50c5bb928a09ba1a8992c8c75a43d PDF Text Text Zachary Curtis American Military History Dr. Browning 10/17/201 1 MYSELF: I am here with Lieutenant Colonel David Cox, Professor of Military Science for Appalachian State University. Good afternoon sir how are you? COLONEL COX: I'm doing just fine thank you. MYSELF: Would you state your name and rank for the record please sir. COLONEL COX : David W. Cox. Lieutenant Colonel United States Army. MYSELF: And what branch are you sir? COLONEL COX: I'm Infantry. MYSELF: Alright. How long have you been in the service for sir? COLONEL COX : Right around 22 years. MYSELF: And the date and place of this interview is October 3rd and is in the office of Lieutenant Colonel. Sir what year did you get commissioned? COLONEL COX : 1989. MYSELF: And why did you choose to join the United States Army sir? COLONEL COX : Well growing up I always wanted to be in the military: Originally I wanted to go into the marines because a lot my cousins were in the marines. But I went to co llege instead of enlisting right out of high school and found out they had an army rote program up here so I guess that's why I ended up in the army instead of the marines. MYSELF : Hooah sir. Why did you pick the specific branch and service sir? COLONEL COX : Well like I said when I came up to Appalachian all they had was an army rote so that kind of narrowed my choices down to army. For the branch, just watched a lot of movies and heard war stories as a kid I guess and just infantry was what I always wanted to do and I was fortunate enough to get my first choice of branch. MYSELF: Hooah sir. What do you recall from your first days in the service being like? COLONEL COX : Well I guess my first real exposure to the service was leaders training course at Fort Knox because I came into the rote program late. I took one class as a sophomore and to become a junior I had to go to LTC and back then it was more like basic training and all the drill sergeants and everything yelling and screaming at you when you showed up. It was pretty intimidating but I knew millions of people before me had done it and figured if they could do it so could I so yea that was pretty much it. MYSELF : Did you go to LDAC like the rest of us sir? COLONEL COX: Yes after LTC I came back and went to my junior year here at Appalachian and then I went to what we use to call it advanced camp and it was down at Fort Bragg, North Carolina but it was very similar to what you guys do now MYSELF: And what was that like for you sir? COLONEL COX : Well, it was kind of interesting being in all the different leadership positions. Trying to be a good follower when you're not in a leadership position. Just it really helped being in a strong program here because I had the confidence to get up in front of my other peers and be in charge and do the th ings I needed to do. It was a pretty challeng ing experience, not challenging physically perse but just being in a leadership position and trying to make sure you did the right thing . �MYSELF: Do you have any moments or images that stand out from advanced camp sir? COLONEL COX : I guess one of the most difficult th ings that happened to me at advanced camp was the first week we were doing rifle marksmanship and I jumped down into the fighting position and rolled my ankle on a sand bag and it ballooned up and they were going to send me home and I told them no I wasn 't going to go home so I just had to do the road march and everything else with my ankle black and blue about the size of a cantaloupe but after a couple days it got back to normal. that's one of my biggest challenges was the fear of having to go home. MYSELF: Hooah sir. Did you find that that kind of prepared you for infantry life? The pushing through pain, pushing through or just in general did you find that that helped you sir? COLONEL COX: It did help me. There is a point where you have to push through discomfort and physical pain to some extent but its very important to know the difference between an injury and just being in discomfort I guess I should say. They said I couldn 't injure that ankle anymore by walking on It so it was already as sprained as it was going to be so I just kept going and that was about it on that topic. MYSELF: Yes sir. What was your BOLC like? Wh ich is Basic Officer Leadership Course. COLONEL COX : Yes and then it was just called Infantry Officer Basic Course or depending on wh ich branch you chose. You showed up you were treated like an officer which was a new experience. You were as far as the NCOs and everyone was saluting you and calling you sir, but it was a little bit similar to camp i guess you could say. One day you were in a leadership position the next day you were a follower but they really expected you to learn there was a lot of classroom stuff and then practical application of what you learned in the classroom and it came at you pretty fast and furtous and you had to study at night if you wanted to do well. I mean some of us did some guys were were just naturals i guess but most of us had to study at night and prepare ourself for the next days events so it was just i guess. The biggest thing for me was being called sir by all these NCOs who had been in the army five, six, seven years and they were calling you sir and I was getting a pay check wh ich is a pretty big deal I guess that was the biggest adjustment for me. MYSELF: What was it like transitioning from being a student and being involved in the army to being full time yo ur main focus was in the army sir? COLONEL COX : Well for me it was pretty easy I guess. You know went to school up here had a great time goofed off too much in some ways. But once it was time to go to work start getting the pay check I was able to fl ip that switch in my head and realize that I had signed up for something that was bigger than me and it was a tot of responsibility and I wanted to learn and become as proficient and competent as I could because I was going to be charge of 30 muldoons, or 30 plus in my first platoon that I was going to get and i knew that I was the guy that they were all going to be looking to for the answers and know what I was suppose to be doing and i didn't want to embarrass myself or ASU ROTC or the Army. I wanted to be competent and confident and do the right th ing for those troopers that I was going to be in charge of so I was able to flip that switch pretty easi ly. �MYSELF: Could you go into detail about what your first days actually getting to your first unit were like sir? The adrenalin rush; nerve of being an officer in front of leading men like that sir. COLONEL COX : Well to be perfectly honest I had really had some good instructors in my ROTC class and they went over some of their first experiences and especially first time they would lead their troops in a field training exercise or PT. And they told me stories about how CPT Nickson was and instructor while I was here. He's now retired and work ing a contracting job for the marine corps, but how he studied at night and go out into the training area on the weekends to try to learn the area so he was very confident and competent and could find his way around and wouldn 't get lost and did all those things on his own, on his own time. And I really took his advice and some other people gave me similar advice and I really took it to heart so anytime I knew I was going to be up in front of troops or be in charge of something particular that I could prepare myself for I would use the weekend or the afternoon to really I guess study, rehearse and get in front of the mirror at home by myself and try to prepare myself the best I could so that when I got up in front of the troops I wouldn 't be stumbling on my words or making mistakes. I mean everyone makes mistake occasionally but I always tried to prepare myself as in advance as much as possible so I could be, not make a lot of mistakes when I was out in front of the soldiers because they expect you to be competent and they expect you to have the answers and if you don't you lose their confidence so I'm not saying I never made mistakes, but I really prepared myself in my own time as much as I could. And I found by preparing myself it made me more confident so I was less nervous because I knew what i had to do because I had rehearsed it so much on my own time. And that really gave me confidence to stand up in front of them and give orders and directions and to be in charge and because I was confident it gave my troops, it made them believe in me and trust me so its kind of a reciprocal type relationship. So I hope I've answered that question. MYSELF : Yes sir. Moving on to some of possible combat you 've seen, what conflict or wars have you been involved in or seen action in sir? COLONEL COX : Okay the only conflict I have been directly involved in was I was deployed to Iraq first. First time in 2003 when the first invasion kicked off and then I went back in 2009 as a, actually 2010, as a transition team leader. So those were my two combat tours. MYSELF: What were yo ur specific assignments or jobs upon you r arrive for those deployments sir? COLONEL COX : Well for my first tour in Iraq I was assigned to the 101st and I was coming out of Korea and I got there just as the division was deploying so I really didn't get to meet anybody in the unit. I stayed back for about two weeks cause I got there as they were already flying out into theater and I had to go fort benning georgia to a rep lacement depot for lack of a better word . They gave us about a two week train up on the things they thought we needed to know . There was a list of tasks we be trained in or proficient in before we deployed. So when I got to theater in Kuwait about two weeks behind the rest of the division but the invasion had not kicked off yet so they were still behind the berms in Kuwait. And I was told I was going to be assigned as a battle major on the division headquarters, the TOC floor. So I was going to be one of the guys with �the twelve hour shift running the TOC there for the 101st. So that was my first assignment. MYSELF : And for your second assignment sir? COLONEL COX: I hadn't deployed in a while so I was due so I was told I would be a transition team leader or I could volunteer for several assignments but I volunteered for that one. So I was with an advise and assist brigade, actually the first advise and assist brigade that deployed ever to Iraq with 1st brigade of the 82nd and that was in 2010. Got back just. joined the unit when they were on block leave. They had just finished their mission rehearsal exercise at JRTC and we had about a month and half to get trained and get ready and deploy over there. As a transition team leader I was in charge of the border transition team so we advised a division. region headquarters of the 2nd region headquarters of the Iraqi border forces and actually 3 points of, actually 4 points of entry. I had 5 transitions teams that worked for me at the brigade level and the points of entry that were actually marine teams so it was actually pretty challenging I was on the road a lot. MYSELF : You said you got to choose between several possibilities for your 2010 deployment, what made you specifically pick that one sir? COLONEL COX: I don't know if it was a possibility for a deployment but it was just a list of jobs that were available for lieutenant colonels. And there was one advise and assist brigade that was with the big red one out at fort Riley kansas and one with the 82nd and the 82nd was just the unit I'd rather have served in so I volunteered to be a transition team leader with the 82nd. There were a couple other opportunities with rapid equipping force and some other things but I wanted to , I guess for lack of a better word get to a unit that may see some action have more direct involvement, there in theater so thats why volunteered to be a transition team leader and I just preferred the 82nd over the big red one so I choose that particular assignment. MYSELF: And just so we understand what exactly does a transition? COLONEL CO X: A transition team? There's a lot of different make ups of them the team I was on had 5 field grade officers myself and 4 majors and then we had a security element from an infantry unit that was attached to us to provide security and mobility and get us around the battlefield. And our job is to advise. train and sometimes go out with and actually do operations with the unit we 're assigned to. There were transition teams that dealt with the army, there were transition teams that dealt with the police and there were transition teams that dealt with the border forces and that happened the one I was selected for based on my background and experiences they decided that that job would be more possible combat and more deploying out to the field . A lot more convoys a lot more tactical movements and they wanted an infantry or a combat arms officer in charge of that team so thats how I was selected to be in charge of the border team. MYSELF : What do you remember upon your arriving on those deployments? What was it like? Your. what you thought it was going to be like verses what reality turned out to be like sir? COLONEL COX : I guess I didn't have any, too many preconceived notions. I had seen all the movies and talked to a lot of veterans. When I came in the army there were still a few vietnam veterans around and they shared some of their experiences especially at ranger school and some of the infantry units I was in and my first couple of tours with those veterans. there weren't many of those veterans around but there were a couple �and they shared their experiences. Obviously Iraq turned out to be very different from vietnam in many ways but it was very interesting. I joined the unit the first deployment with the 101 st and came in with the replacement batch they moved in to theater. We didn't know exactly what to expect they moved us into these basically called them circus tents but they were just big tents they housed people in with wooden floors and coots down there and you just were assigned a coot and a tent and and we stayed there for about a week and a half before we actually crossed the berm . I remember the night before, or the evening before we crossed the berm they had a big meal for us which I thought was pretty interesting actually. They had steak and lobster. Kind of like they didn't know what to expect so they wanted to make sure we had a good meal that could possibly be our last. So everyone had the steak and lobster meal and even though we were in the 101 st we didn't fly in or air assault in. We loaded on the trucks and moved behind the 3rd infantry division who was spearheading the efforts up to, moving up through, eventually up to Bagdad but you know moving north from kuwait up through Iraq . And we followed behind them , probably several hours behind them in trucks and basically we were just trying to keep up at that point because they didn't meet a whole lot of resistance and there was large masses of, large chu nks of unoccupied land just desert out there that we would just drive through but you know but we were in a tactical convoys and everybody is expecting to get hit so everybody is facing their weapons out and doing all the convoy battle drills but there wasn 't a lot of resistance. So we went all the way up to bagdad and occupied a big weapons factory which was pretty interesting. That we had been there and could see where the apache helicopters had came in and had whipped out all the tanks and BMPs and infantry vehicles that were in town. It was amazing to me that they were able to take out these tanks between buildings just very narrow alleys with the hellfire missiles and not even damage the buildings around them . You 'd just see a little hole in the tank where the missile had burned through the armor and had just burned up the inside of the tank. Without looking closely you would think it was still serviceable until you got close enough to see the little holes and where the hellfire missiles had went in. But then we went up after about two weeks in Bagdad we went north towards Mosul and one of the infantry battalions actually had a pretty, brigade actually, employed a battalion and a half into a pretty decent engagement in Najaf. And I wasn 't directly involved in that being involved with battalion headquarters but that, was pretty interesting to listen to over the rad io. MYSELF: So when you, could you talk about compari ng those two deployments? What w similar? What you found the differences between the two of them were? COLONEL COX : The first deployment, basically after the initial invasion the Iraqi army pretty much disintegrated and went away. There were pockets of resistance a lot of them were militias and re ligious fanatics and different things. You know we would catch some mortars and some rockets occasionally on our FOBs but most of the resistance , there wasn 't really an Iraqi force we just started standing them up. The new Iraqi police force and the new army and all those types of things. When I went back several years later they had made a lot of progress and had stood up the actual Iraqi police force and the Iraqi army and there was an Iraqi coast guard and air force and those types of things and we were working with them instead of us. That was the biggest difference to me working hand in hand side by side with the Iraqi security forces to help them get better and help them do their jobs and try to push them out front so that we weren 't �necessarily taking a leading role we were taking a supporting role and I guess the Iraqi security forces were basically non existent in my first deployment and during the second deployment it was all about getting them prepared to take over when we left. MYSELF: Did you find that hard to reel in that pack of wolves? You know, you're leading a group of men who are alpha personalities and to have them . COLONEL COX: Oh it was extremely challenging . Some of the transition teams saw very, a lot of the infantry soldiers were just securing bases and weren't really going out and doing many missions and that lead to a lot of issues. Not issues but just these men were trained for combat, expected to go to combat and they were on edge and a lot of them were confined to camps and you always had to be alert and visual and we still took rockets and mortars and those types of things but they didn't have a direct combat role in many cases. The unit I was with the border forces we on the road you know about two to five days a week every week almost and we were doing a lot of convoys and we had to stay vigilant and we actually were never hit with any IEDs or any direct fire but a lot of other convoys in adjacent areas and before and after us on the roads were hit so we couldn't let our guard down. And we actually stayed on the Iraqi compound and they had a little safe house basically that they gave to the american forces that the transition team before me had used and we had hesko barriers around it, big sand filled wire cages for lack of a better word if you don't know what hesko, is with constantine wire and we had to maintain a guard. We felt pretty secure inside the Iraqi compound. We were pretty confident that most of these guys were on the up and up and didn't wish us any harm but we could never truly let our guard completely down. That was my biggest fear was my guys were going to get complacent so I had to keep hammering home security and discipline and staying ready for anything at any time cause even though we didn't have any incidents there we re, we had a couple times where we thought we were going to have an incident and turned out not to I don't know if it was because we were alert and they didn't see a weakness they could come after or just because they didn't intend to do us any harm we don't know but we didn 't want to give anybody the opportunity to do us any harm . MYSELF: What were some methods you employed to keep your men from becoming stagnant or co mplacent? COLONEL COX : Myself and the sergeant first class who were in charge I made them stand watches at night and augment some of the patrols just so, and I preached to them hey don't let your guard down. We had SOPs that we were very rigorous myself and sergeant first class not to let our standards go lax. We didn't care how calm things seemed , we would enforce the standard you know hey before we get off the tracks you gotta have somebody on security before we get off the MRAPs and before we occupy the house and start moving our stuff in we were going to stay for a couple nights that we occupy the strong points and the gates to make sure it was secure. Everybody carried loaded weapons, locked and loaded the entire time so you know even on the Iraqi compound just so you know just to maintain that combat vigilance and alertness and just continue to hammering home making everybody when they went out one of my officers wanted to go do a KLE with their particular counterpart made them take security with them at least one soldier who was always to remain vigilant and to keep his weapon with him , we all kept our weapons with us but while the officer or senior NCO was doing their key leader engagement or having an interaction with their counterpart �you know there was always one person designated to just be security to just keep watching and looking and keep their eyes open and not give anybody the opportunity to catch us with our guard down. MYSELF: So did you see any direct combat or did your unit take any casualties on either of your deployments? COLONEL COX: The division when I was with the 101st on my first deployment took eighty, I think eighty eight casualties. Eighty eight killed actually, casualties was quiet a few more. I didn't ever have to pull the trigger. There were a lot of times where we took rockets or mortars you know on our positions but not sustain, usually just a few rounds here or there. RPGs fired at some of our sleeping quarters from vehicles going down the road but me personally I never pulled the trigger. The closest I came to combat in that particular situation working in a division headquarters was rockets and mortars and RPGs fired indiscriminately into our perimeter and standing in the chow line one day we waiting to eat at the defact or mess hall and we started taking mortar rounds and one guy, everybody else laid on the ground and one guy just took off running and just, fate I don't know what it was but he ran right into a mortar it landed right on top of him and exploded and he was about 50 yards from us when he took off running . We don't know what possessed him to take off running he should have just hit the ground but he was pretty much killed instantly on the spot and so thats probably the closest I came to combat in the first deployment. Second deployment once again mostly indirect fire . Couple times some rockets impacted in some fields close to where I was walking and a couple of times I was, during convoys, we were always vigilant for IEDs we spotted a couple but none ever exploded on us. We marked them and sealed them off and waited until the EOD got there and provided security for them until we moved on. And then I guess probably the only time closest i came to combat was or even being felt threatened was in the Iraqi compound we were staying in. They there during the heat of the summer they basically worked early in the morning then would sleep or rest or do whatever for four or five hours and start working again that evening and work until late in the night. They had a really strange reverse cycle but I guess it was due to the climatic conditions and the extreme 120, 130 degree temperatures and lack of air conditioning that there was a cultural thing that they got up early, worked in the morning , basically slept rested did their own thing in the afternoon during the middle of the day and then later that afternoon in the early evening they came back to work and worked until midnight or one or two in the morning sometimes. But my interpreter and I, I was bored I wasn't use to that routine during the day I wanted something to do so my interpreter and I were walking around the compound and we were invited into one of the houses by some off duty soldiers. They were enlisted soldiers and they invited me in for tea and my interpreter said sir you don't have to go but it would really honor them if you went in for tea, that would be a big deal to them they don't get to interact with officers very often, its a little more, its a lot more segregated in their army than it is in ours. So my interpreter and I went in and picked a good seat with our back against the wall just didn't want to let our guard down but we felt pretty comfortable, but they said ah the suns in your eyes so they closed the door and then a couple more came out of the back rooms and came into this room and kind of surrounded us and sitting around us and I just started getting a bad feeling . And I didn't know if these guys were just being friendly or i could see myself on Aljezzera in some video getting my head chopped or �something , so I started undoing the release on my holster for my pistol trying to figure out which door was the best exit and trying to figure out which one I was going to have to shot first if it came to a gun battle and adjust my position where I could easily reach for my pistol my side arm and start shooting kind of like the old clint Eastwood movie, which one are you going to shot first I was trying to figure out which one is the biggest threat and how I was going to get myself and my interpreter out of there but fortunately nothing happened . I don't know if it was because of we didn't let our guard down or because they didn't intend to do anything to start with but yea thats the closest to direct combat that I came MYSELF: Did you find it frustrating to not be able directly engage the enemy and did you find that affected the morale of your men never to have an actual enemy to engage? COLONEL COX: Well some of the soldiers especially had been on the previous deployments where they had seen direct combat, they were more on guard but most of them weren 't too anxious to see it again. It didn't bother them that we didn't have direct combat perse. You know there were a couple that it did. I found that the new guys who had never deployed again they were the ones who were most disappointed in not getting to see any action. And they were very frustrated but that was a lack of experience that they hadn't been there and done that and they felt like it was part of their I guess their manly duties and they had trained for it and the train up they had been with guys who had deployed before when it was really bad over there in 2005, 6 and 7 and there was so much going on and so much combat and they had been their training had revolved around kicking in doors and directly engaging the enemy and direct fire so I found the new guys were the ones who hadn't seen any combat were the ones who were most disappointed by not having done it and we just tried to temper their expectations and tell them look you 'll get another deployment. Go to afghanistan next time around and maybe you 'll get an opportunity to see direct action its not a bad thing you're not seeing direct action so try not to be too disappointed. MYSELF: Yes sir. Shifting fields for a little bit, what are some of the places that the army has taken you or you've traveled in your service time? COLONEL COX: I've been pretty fortunate I've been a lot of different places my first duty station was Hawaii which was over there so I really enjoyed that it was a lot of good training had some commanders and good leaders that I worked for it was a good unit with the 25th infantry division and 114 infantry. The battalion commander was Lieutenant Colonel Kazlan who is now Major General Kalzan who just recently came out of command of the 25th infantry division and the S-3 was Major Jim Hug ans who is now Major General Hugans who is in charge of the division commander for the 82nd so that chain of command over there was pretty stacked had some good quality officers and NCOs and it was a good experience. Boy from a very mediocre middle class up bringing in North Carolina going to Hawaii was pretty exciting. Then I went back to fort Benning georgia for my advanced course now its called, I'm not even sure what its called now but it used to be called the advanced course now its called the career course and then I went to fort Lewis Washington which is up near Seattle which is in the north west and got the opportunity to go to Alaska and different th ings and from there bel ieve it or not I went back to an ROTC assignment at Appalachian State University and then I went to fort Bragg and then spent some time there at fort Bragg and then after Bragg went to �Korea which everybody to ld me don't go its a horrible place terrible time but I actually enjoyed it I had a good time over there and I found it best to try to immerse yourself in the culture and the people and the country or the location your at instead of always going to eat in Korea and most of the soldiers when they were off duty would go to the burger king or the KFC instead of going to the local korean restaurant .Its not necessarily a bad thing but I found it better to try to immerse yourself in the culture of basically the country that you're in. So that you have a better time. after korea i went to fort Campbell which I really enjoyed it was still in the south but it was near Nashville a very nice place then I got fortunate enough to be basically an opportunity to do an exchange officer job in Australia so I spent a little over 2 years in Australia working the 1st infantry division in Australia actually the only active duty division and then from there I went basically to fort Bragg for a coupl e of months and then deployed to Iraq for the second time and after the second rotation I came back to Bragg for a couple months and after that I came up here to appalachian so I've been to some pretty choice assignments and some good locations I've really enjoyed it. MYSELF: As an officer men look up to you. What kind of pressures and stress do you find in your everyday interactions? COLONEL COX : Basically they expect you to be a little different than them as in upholding the standard . Strong ethically and morally and the leaders that make mistakes that you know do stupid things especially that get them in trouble that their soldiers see or let the standards down once you basically let the standards down or the soldiers see you with a DUI or getting drunk and stupid or those types of things you lose their trust and faith because they see you basically i hate to say this on a pedestal. If they see you cheating or lying or stealing or doing something its very hard to come down on them you know for doing the same thing so you're being observed 24f7 even off duty. So the things you do you just have to conscious of your environment and who's around but you can't let your guard down they expect you to be professional and mature and in charge basically all the time. I mean yes you can make mistakes, everybody does but you have to be conscious of being observed at all times and always try to be on your best, on your A game. MYSELF: What do you, what are some things to you do to help relieve stress or try and get away from the normal routine? COLONEL COX : Well everybody's got different things, I like physical activities running biking those types of things, competitive events are good and like spending time with peers and friends that are kind of low key that way you can talk without your subordinates necessarily hearing your complain or grip so you just gotta be careful who's around when you do that but thats kinda been my technique for re lieving stress either physical activity or competition or just hanging around with peers people the same rank as you or higher rank than you and that way you can talk honestly and freely without wo rrying about looking bad or complaining in front of your troops. MYSELF : What was that adjustment like to learn the social code of how to conduct yourself in front of your subordinates and what you could or could not do? COLONEL COX : Well i guess it kind of starts here in your ROTC experience, you know I wouldn't want the MS4s to be gripping or complaining in front of the 1s. 2s, or 3s or to be laughing and joking when they're suppose to be serious and competent I think it began here in my ROTC career as you know you have to be conscious of who's around �when you're, you want to say something that may not be considered appropriate as far as maybe complaining about the way things were done or those types of things so I think it began here it just continues through out your time as an officer. MYSELF: How has the time in the service affected your relationships with friends and family ? COLONEL COX: Well I had a lot of great friends in college I'm still friends with some of them and high school but I've lost contact with many of them because I travel so much and over seas and all over the world so you lose touch with a lot of friends except fo r the ones who you're really close to you know its a struggle you have to make an effort to remain friends with the people because you do move every couple of years. I don't want to get too personal but my first wife we were married for 1O years but after I was in fort Bragg i was in some special ops where I was gone pretty much a year then I went to korea unaccompanied for a year then I came back and about 2 weeks later was in iraq for a year after 3 years of being gone my wife decided she'd had enough so I can say the military probably cost me my first marriage but I still don't have any regrets i didn't want to be divorced never planned on getting divorced but once it happens you can't change it but I guess thats the biggest adjustment and family just a lot of long distance phone calls and emails and letters and those types of things to keep the family connections going . MYSELF: Thank you for that sir. Moving on to the closing, what would be some of your best advice to anybody looking to join the military or put their service in? COLONEL COX : To me its been a great experience and it still continues today. You get to travel , you get be in charge, you get a lot of leadership experience and you're only limited by the effort you put into it in most cases, I mean Its hard work, Its a lot of separation. you're away from family and friends many times. But theres a lot of satisfaction in working with folks and seeing them get better and improve and knowing you had a role in it. and accomplishing something that you didn't necessarily know you that you could accomplish. But the biggest advice I would be if you want it you have to go for it and if you commit to it you got to commit 100% and prepare yourself you know every way you can yes theres time to relax and have fun and its been a lot of fun but you got to always if you're going to be in front of troops or bee in charge of something prepare yourself the best you can before the time comes so that you're confident and competent when you're up there in front of troops or in charge so that'd be my best advice to prepare yourself as fully as possible. MYSELF: When you look back at your time serving and leading your men what do you feel is one of, some of the most, some of the actions that have most positively affected them? COLONEL COX : For my soldiers? MYSELF: Yes sir. COLONEL COX: I guess to me it is being fair and the same, upholding standards and not making exceptions yes a lot of soldiers don 't appreciate that initially but when they see you're fair across the board with everybody and you're not making an exception coming down on them they understand and getting to know them taking a personal interest in when they have problems, there are some problems that a low ranking soldier or NCO necessarily doesn't get the attention they deserve in many cases from your personal office or in different things or the chain of command but you as an officer �can intervene and make sure their problems get fixed and really make a difference and try to encourage and motivate the younger soldiers and the young NCOs and learn from the ones who are more experienced than you and see how they do things and I guess my biggest feeling of accomplishment was actually getting to know all my soldiers as best i could taking a personal interest in their welfare and actually helping them when they had problems with pay maybe a for instance one guy had a pay problem he goes into the PAC office and they kind we don't have time for you right now go away you know they don't realize how important it is for a young soldier who's not getting his proper pay so either my NCOs and I've had a lot of good ones or myself would hand walk this soldier down to the PAC and not leave until that soldier got some service, you know not saying your PAC is always bad or wrong but just giving an example but personally intervening and taking a personal interest and taking the time to get to know your soldiers and helping them to grow and develop. MYSELF: Before entering the service and through your experience what would yo u say, how would you say your view of the military has changed? COLONEL COX : Hmm, I'm not sure that its changed a whole lot really cause my father had been in the military and a lot of my family had been in the military so I kind of knew what to expect, umm , I guess the biggest thing I didn't know was the amount of time and effort the good officers and NCOs have to put in to be good, it takes a lot of time to take personal interest in your soldiers and try to get to know them and help them and prepare yourself for when you're in charge always make sure that you're upholding the standards and values and ethics. its a lot of pressure and responsibility probably a little more than I thought but its really not that different from what I expected. MYSELF : Yes sir. You have some distinguished decorations on your uniform : Ranger tab, combat infantry badge, your wings and your parachute. Which one wou ld you say you take most pride in sir? COLONEL COX : Well actually this is not the combat infantry badge , its the expert infantry badge. MYSELF: Excuse me sir. COLONEL COX : No its no problem when I went through iraq the first time I was a division headquarters level you had to be a brigade level to get a CAB and then the second time when i deployed as a transition team leader they had determined Iraq was no longer a combat zone it was a stability or civil operation so troops over there were not qualified for the CAB but i guess all of these are very important to me. the airborne school i went to when i was a cadet rig ht after advanced camp or LDAC and that was a very challenging and fun experience I had a great time first real army school I've been to. thrown in with a bunch of NCOs and enlisted soldiers and basically was treated as an equal we all went through it together except they had to call me sir when i was a lieutenant but i was a cadet then so they didn't have to call me sir air assault was pretty tough in hawaii it was hard to get a slot once you got a slot you just didn't want to come back to your platoon having been to that school as a platoon leader and not get your tab so a little bit of pressure there not to fail but the EIB I guess the most important to me of course the ranger tab but the EIB is me going through it with all my troops as a platoon leader going through the train up out there in the field with them helping each other and getting through all the stations first time go on all stations and earning my EIB and my ranger tab. �MYSELF: Yes sir. How do you feel the experience in the military has altered or helped the way yo u approach life? COLONEL COX : Well fortunately i had a pretty good up bringing mom and dad raised me right and i had good friends and but basically i never quit always give it your best effort and do the best you can and if you do fail or things go wro ng try to learn from it and do better the next time do let it get you, don't stay down for too long life keeps rolling and in the big scheme of th ings people aren't that concerned with in general over whether you fail or succeed but just keep going never quit and if you do fail at something learn from it doing it again and do it right the next time MYSELF : Yes sir. when you get out of the service or looking back what do you hope that the people and have lead say about you? COLONEL COX : Basically that I cared about the soldiers and that I was good at what I did and that I upheld the standards as far as values and ethics and that I was a good soldier. MYSELF : Hooah sir. Is there anything you would like to add that we didn't cover in the interview? COLONEL COX : No I think that just about covers it all . probably a little bit more than you wanted but yea that's all I have. MYSELF: Wonderful, thank you so much for taking the time to see me sir. COLONEL COX : Yep no problem. . MYSELF: This has been interview with Lieutenant Colonel David Cox Professor of Military Science Appalachian State University. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b7c77ee258366b151c345bda7634f5b5.wma 16245c34b1bf7f59850053f2c27af04e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 607 KB 42.4 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Lieutenant Colonel Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Curtis; Zachary Cox; David W. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Curtis, Zachary Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Cox, David W. Interview Date 10/17/2011 Number of pages 12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:46:03 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code de75dafebd74ef31445b0e07b477f915 16245c34b1bf7f59850053f2c27af04e Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Epson Perfection V600 Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Document Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Cox_David_20111017_transcript_M 5018_Cox_David_2011_1017_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lieutenant Colonel David Cox [October 17, 2011] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Curtis, Zachary Cox, David W. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Colonel Cox served in the US Army after going to college and went to advanced camp at Fort Bragg, North Carolina in order to become a commissioned officer. He served in the infantry branch and was deployed to Iraq twice, once in 2003 and another time in 2009. Subject The topic of the resource Cox, David Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States Interviews Personal narratives, American advanced camp BOLC Colonel Cox infantry Iraq US Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8d1a699827a7096c739e9a5ad18a25a9.pdf 8d03fa2f0cd76cef7d03a54d2627a08a PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Paul Maney Boone, North Carolina 12 October 2011 MO: Marshall Ospina PM: Paul Maney MO: Today is October 12, 2011 and we are in Boone NC, In the History Department on campus of Appalachian State University. I am interviewing professor Paul Maney; I am Marshall Ospina a student here at Appalachian State University. We will begin the oral history now. MO: Where were you born and raised? PM: Marshall I was born in England…my father was a…member of the Air Force my mother was an English citizen. I was born in England lived there for five years and when we came to the states I lived in different times in Northern New England and in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and then in Alaska for four years. Where I supposedly graduated high school. MO: When is your Birthday? PM: October 7th, 1953. MO: When and why did you choose to join the military? PM: Well, I…like I said I graduated in 1971 in Alaska and I did not like it up there I did not care for my family so I moved I basically left home if you want to call it that I hitched hiked out of Alaska down the Alkane Highway and…spent the next three or four months hitchhiking around the country it was something I wanted to do at the time and by October of that year when I turned 18 I was at my grandparents in Pennsylvania and I decided the only option that I really had to go to college was to join the Army so I basically enlisted to get the G.I Bill and that’s what I did in late 1971 four years ago MO: Tell me about your basic training experience. PM: Well, that was again more like the probably the most difficult time I’d say in my life, this was during the Vietnam War going on of course and even though they were drawing troops down…there was that still was back draw, I went in Fort Dix New Jersey at the age of 18 probably totally unprepared for the Basic Training experience…after three months I’d have to say that was probably the worst three months I’ve ever saw of my life, and it was not like the movies they show you where everybody you know pulls together and gets…you know you help one another out it was a very divisive time I saw five people killed in basic training I…I came upon a Jo…a soldier who had sliced his testicles off in the… latrine …I was …on CQ and I found him and I had to break up the whole…I saw people… abused and bullied under the orders of drill sergeants who were psychotic types who were from Vietnam…you know who had gone 1 �to Vietnam and probably got a chance to...indulge all their fantasies about hurting and killing people and…they would...in fact during the time I was in we had people who were drafted of course I was…volunteer but their were people there who did not want to be there and the thing to do of course of course the drill sergeants tried to sort of… point them out to everybody and…literally have them...use the…the troops themselves to police these people to beat them up and intimidate them we had a guy in our… basic training company who get up every morning and defecate in his bed and roll around in it just to try to get out and… he was pointed out to the drill sergeants and later... a bunch of people gave him what they call a blanket party where they throw a…a blanket over your head and beat you up with bunk adapters… this guy has or had his arms broken. The guy who I saw who kill himself was just a heavy set individual who could not do the physical training he was he was bullied and abused there were some awful incidents… that I was telling you about in Fort Dix New Jersey in the winter of 1971 the barracks that were not heated…and situation was pretty… I would say...dictated to our drill sergeant… not to go into that much further that I cant tell you that the follow up on that is…that…after I got out of basic training and I went to my AIT unit some of the people that I was in basic with we ended up in Fort Carson, Colorado and six months later they actually had people from the Judge Advocate Generals (JAG) office come out and take depositions from us about our basic training experience with Drill Sargent Guion. He had run over he run his company at that time over somebody they were going down range road from weapons practice who had a heart attack and...killed him and so after that they had an investigation on what was going on in the various cycles that he went…that he sort of conducted as a drill sergeant… when they came out in… July of 70, 72 to take depositions I sat there with a guy from the JAG for like two hours telling him stories about basic training and what happened so that was probably the most terrific time I have ever seen...you know getting out of that with my sanity intact was you know really maybe an accomplishment… that was the worse I saw of the Army after that it got better but still it was not my favorite time…so how’s that for an answer, ha-ha. MO: What motivated you throughout that very dark period of time? PM: Well, I thought the day after I enlisted I made a mistake…I mean I sat there said oh my God I couldn’t believe I done it you know? I didn’t know it was going be like you have this sort of…vision that you see from these World War II movies where everybody gets in there its all you know...and maybe the drill sergeant’s tough but he’s really…underneath it very fair and everybody bans together that was really not the way it was there was a lot of…I could say during that time I saw…I was really naïve I never even seen anybody drunk in my life until the first night I was in the Army. I end up putting a guy in a wall locker because I refused to have a beer and I still never drank anything mostly because the first people I ever saw drunk acted so stupid I said I would never ever want to do that and so…you know I think that’s another thing the army tries to do of course is to…intimidate a little bit so that you become ultimately…that you are not an individual that you just basically are stripped down to the basics and then you can, they kind of build you 2 �back up but… that in itself was you know a period where you know…I was…having to assert my individuality and I learned a lot about what was going on around me and I guess…about group dynamics and everything, so was there a specific question that I didn’t answer? MO: No you answered it. PM: oh, ok. I was just curious. MO: So was there any hazing in AIT? I mean just… PM: Oh well there was, not like not like in basic I mean in AIT I went down to Fort Jackson, South Carolina I was trained infantry and that was…that was a world of improvement for me I hated my drill sergeant he must have hated me too because ultimately…he…I think that I and a few other people were singled out you know maybe on the basis of what they call GT scores if you have something like… that that’s relatively high maybe the drill sergeants will think that you’re some kind of…you know…egg head or whatever so even though…I always got 500’s on my you know PT and all that. He didn’t like me he thought for some reason cause I couldn’t sleep, I could not sleep and all the time I was there my eyes were literally red as get out so he must have thought I was some kind of drug addict or whatever but this guys eyes were always red too because he was an alcoholic so, so anyways I did not like that he didn’t even promote me to…E2 until I got out of basic when I went to…AIT I was the honor grad I got E4 out of it. So but just because I got… the drill sergeant was without a doubt the most evil person I have ever met. MO: So what…when…were where was your first duty station? PM: Well, I got right after basic and AIT I ended up in fact I was going to Fort Campbell, Kentucky …I was going to go airborne and we had… MO: At Ft. Campbell Kentucky? PM: Yes, Fort Campbell, Kentucky with the 82nd Airborne. MO: I thought it was only in Fort Benning. PM: No, that’s in Georgia, this was back in 1971, 72. So we ended up having a little…misadventure I guess 32 people that evening were sort of injured after…we hit a wind shier…I had a separated left shoulder out of all that it really wasn’t damaging to my in any way I still cant look over my left shoulder I have never parallel parked in my life we ended up having…enough medical attention I was in the hospital for only 3 days but I say that in fact that saved my life because I didn’t get assigned to Vietnam. I don’t know if I was suppose to go to Vietnam anyways some people did at that time even though they said, we weren’t, well I finally got my papers out of all that I ended up in Fort Carson, Colorado with the 4th Infantry Division it’s a mechanized infantry division. 3 �MO: How did you stay in touch with your family? Or did you… PM: I haven’t been in touch with my so called family since then so its been 40 years I had left… I left you know I have two brothers and two sisters their all in Alaska I guess. I’m not in touch with them. I left them totally I left at 17, so I didn’t bother. MO: What was the food like? PM: HA! THE FOOD! I…I’m pretty picky so as far as food goes I’m not...you know that was not my…you know they shove a lot of carbohydrates at you and they make it you know so that…that may be one of those things you look forward too but I certainly didn’t I…you know…many a times I would be at the end of the… chow line and not have anything in my plate so it was you know… I can’t say that the food was…you know…I’m a real picky eater so, ha-ha. MO: How were the MRE’s over there? PM: They…They didn’t call them that at the time they might have had LRRP’s which are Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols, just sea rations, we didn’t, they didn’t have anything called MRE’s when I was in the Army. So basically it was you know you had those going down range and typically I would always get a can of spaghetti or something you know and have to trade that off to have some eggs and some semi kind of looking meat or whatever but it wasn’t exactly actually it was just as bad it was you know no different than eating in the chow line, well I got to Colorado my friend and I one of my best friends, in fact my best, my best friend during the time we had lunch or whatever we go out and get, I never saw tacos or burritos before at the time Mexican food hadn’t really made it throughout most of the US during that time out west I was able to spend my time eating tacos and burritos, ha-ha. MO: Did you have plenty of supplies I mean when you were at you first unit? PM: Oh yeah there was no problem there again this is you know a time when they were drawing down the Army because of people coming back from Vietnam I saw a lot of people who had been there and came back and were you know affected by it and I was affected by the people around me but, I never luckily enough had to be put in a situation like these guys did… and I think ultimately at the time seeing these people the way they responded and the way I felt like…good Lord, their lives are already you know affected they’ll never change I mean I wonder 40 years now 39 years after that time when I got to my duty station in 1972 how many of these people are really, how many went off the deep end, how many were able to save, how many went through counseling how many became alcoholics, how many became drug addicts how many end up killing themselves. I mean you could see it the affect you know people who spent time in Vietnam what had it done to them. MO: Wow, did you feel any pressure or stress throughout your army career? PM: Well, yeah I mean it did especially early on but as I went on in my time in the army I was trained infantry but after…I got to my…after I got to my duty station… one day saved my life or 4 �at least somebody came down from the orderlies room looking to see if anybody in the company could type and I raised my hand and said yes I could! So I was brought up to the… orderly room and from that point on I became training NCO (non-commissioned officer) I was given… about 6…6 months I was just training you know assistant then after our, my…my training sergeant retired they gave me they made me a what they called an AJ, “Acting Jack” I have, I was spec 4 but I was given Sargent stripes with only three months left I only had been in the army 16-17 months at that time with three moths left to go actually…a little bit more than 8 months to go they actually promoted me to E-5 as a training NCO but my job was administrative more than I wasn’t leading men into the field or anything as Sargent and even though I was infantry trained I was basically… you know…in that field so that was when it got a lot easier when once I got up there it became a breeze I had no problems after that its not easy for me to take orders but ultimately…when I was working with people who were at least… I wasn’t dealing down with some psychotic drill sergeant or somebody down there… MO: People were competent. PM: Yeah so and I didn’t…you know in a line company I mean again I just did not…just a little too different to get along really well with everybody so it was one of those things…I was in...I was in my time of the army I had 12 or 13 different fights I got stabbed three times I hit a guy through a window and I almost severed my artery here I got three knife wounds here in my chest from a guy that had a lot of, a lot of different incidents, that wasn’t the easiest thing for me. MO: Did you start these incidents? PM: I would never said, no. I thought never, I would never but I wasn’t going to back down from anything either and that’s the thing… MO: Of course. PM: Of course you cant you know you cannot do that for a second so ultimately I never felt like I got the worse of anything either even the guy who stabbed me I broke his nose and was pounding his head on the pavement when they pulled me off him so he got me three times in the chest luckily he only had a three inch blade so I had you know I got holes right there just to prove that their there you cant kind of… you can see there… there… and there the only reason he couldn’t kill me is cause he kept hitting my breastbone instead of my heart which he was going for that’s a lovely feeling hearing a knife hit your breastbone. Ha-ha. MO: How did people entertain themselves? PM: Drugs, alcohol...the…the Army it seemed at that time it actually encouraged people to get drunk because they kept having these company beer parties and everything you know so they would do that it was again during the time of the end of the Vietnam war a lot of the people who were hooked on all sorts of things…I saw people shooting up in the barracks they were doing all you know pills methamphetamines…downers uppers everything so that’s...they…they on the post itself they had you know mess halls open late at night they had I guess different functions and everything you know it was…I guess it was for me it was a little different of course I was 5 �probably...the only…I had my locker full of books ha-ha so…I didn’t...I didn’t partake I still never played a card game in my life a lot of people seemed to play cards a lot you know some people would either lose a fortune or make a fortune but you know I would play chess maybe but there were always a few people who I could get along with you know but that’s as far as entrainment goes that was most of what I saw going on. MO: Where did you travel while in the service? PM: Well, not really I was just mostly in Colorado I was only in for 21 months so by the time I got to my duty station since I didn’t have any family anywhere I didn’t really take any leave and when I got out of the army I was able to sale my leave back… because I didn’t use it so I actually got two months of you know pay when I got out so I didn’t really as far as traveling I was again I spent a lot time in Colorado but that’s I got a chance to see that...so…I didn’t really go anywhere at that time so. MO: Do you recall any particularly humorous…or… PM: Humorous? MO: Or unusual event? PM: well everything was…everything was unusual, I don’t know about humorous as far as the army goes because it wasn’t too humorous it was deadly, deadly serious then it got to the point where I was just waiting out my time after I realized that I wasn’t going to kill anybody or that…ultimately hopefully wasn’t going to kill me I was just wasn’t going to go crazy having people over, I didn’t like the idea waking up every morning knowing that, I have no control over my life that ultimately I was owned lock stock and barrel, but…it seemed funny cause there is this Oscar wild you know writer, he said in one of his little stories that everyday felt like a year a years whose days was long that was my time in the army everyday felt like a year and it was a long year I spent 21 months in, which comes to about 700 days but it felt like that was the longest 21 months of my life and I was glad to get out I mean I processed an early out. I got out with an honorable discharge I got an Army ARCOM an army you know Commendation Medal, it wasn’t I could not have re-upped they wanted me to reenlist, when they made me an E5, it was something they thought alright we will give you some rank and authority but there was no way in the world I was ever going to reenlist, I got out three months before my 20 birthday so I was in and out before I was even twenty. So for humorous stories, I was thinking of humorous stories and I really you know. I could tell you no I shouldn’t maybe I could tell you about getting out of the army, I had already processed my early out because I was you know I got three month drop to get out for school cause they were doing that at the time so as the training NCO my job was to put out a …a weekly training bulletin where you know everybody in the company knew what was going on it would be posted you would have daily activities Monday thru Friday and it was always posted in the company area you had times and if you were like lets say going to have a film on VD or if 6 �you arranged a rifle range to you know for you know weapons training or qualification if you done this you would post it all. Well, my last week in the army just a as a joke I had… made two copies of it one was the real training schedule the other was a joke I had to send it up first of all to my company commander then It went up to battalion then to brigade and then to the post to be authorized it was just preferment just a matter of course but I made two separate ones and on the first one I just did the regular week for the company the second was a joke it was supposedly going to be seen by my company commander and he was going to laugh and then you know give it back to me and say but the last one I had instead of my training schedule it has I put down on it in big letters “MANEY ETS,” which means you get… that’s when you get out and terminated service and underneath it I put down FTA and if you don’t know what FTA means you kind of have to go back to the mid seventies it had meant something that was not complimentary. THE ARMY was the second and third letters of that F the F you could imagine and I sent that up and I thought my company commander would see it and reject it and send it back and said nice joke. Well nobody had looked at it and they sent it up first of all from company to battalion nobody looked at it they signed it the company, the… the COL in charge of battalion signed it he sent it up to the guy in charge of Brigade and it eventually ended up in the post headquarters and my 1SG three r four days later got a call from the post 1SG 4th Infantry Division asking about this Maney guy and it was going to be it was like they were going to the stop my early out because of this little thing that was not suppose to go anywhere if it hadn’t been for my 1SG he basically told me the story he said look you know what did you do and I told him this was a joke and he said Maney you better hide out for the next week I’ll save your buns if you don’t. I don’t want you around the company area you better head over to the PX you better head over to the gym you better be somewhere away from here because these people are coming out here looking for you so my 1SG really sort of saved me and when I was processing to get out through all the little debriefings to you when you get out I kept thinking up to the last minute they were going to get me somehow but actually I got out of there ok so I have a picture in fact my last day getting out my company had gone to Ft. Lewis Washington and there was only a skeleton crew left behind there so nobody really with any power so my last day I took all my gear and my…duffle bag and I got a picture sort of I took it out in front of the company orderly room and took some lighter fluid and squirted it on and threw a match on it and set the whole thing on fire so I got a picture of that. How is that for a funny story? MO: What did you think of the officers or higher NCO’s above you? PM: As far as the officers went you know during that time…the officers were all educated college educated a lot of them even though they were officers were opposed to the Vietnam war they were you know, some I would actually have…had deep conversations with I ended up playing chess with a lot of the officers I seem t have more in common with them even though they were a lot older than me I was only again 18 or so but…some of them were conflicted about you know they had joined the army to kind of like you know… they weren’t all the gun ho kind of career officers you see today and many of them probably were just college educated and you know just being in a position so…I had no problems with the officers at all some of the drill 7 �sergeants in particular and especially people who had been career soldiers who were above like E6 or E7 who were you know terminal alcoholics and…and just people who you know didn’t have much imagination but were just there for a long time and got rank I had trouble with a lot of those people. MO: Do you recall…the day your service ended? PM: Oh yeah, yes December 7th 1973 its Buddy Holly’s Birthday. I got out and basically stayed in Colorado I didn’t really have anything going. MO: That was in Fort Carson? PM: Fort Carson I stayed there and I started school at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs right there that fall. MO: So the weeks, and days after you went right into… PM: I just went right into school there from that you know. MO: So I'm guessing your education was supported by the G.I Bill? PM: That’s how I got it in fact I went to a lot of different schools I didn’t have you know, it took me a long time because I have to say after being in the Army it took me a long time to kind of re adjust but it did leave an affect on me it was not you know something that it just kind of…a lot of things affected me in a lot of ways so I…had…by the time I used the GI Bill up I had you know over 200 hours I had gone to 6 different schools at that stage in the game and finally got my degree in English but it wasn’t I was not…I…I didn’t have a lot of direction and the army really didn’t give me any direction really I was in there for two years. I didn’t learn anything not a single thing other than how tot kill people you know and that was it though I didn’t have any skills but I got out of there in 21months and you know I used the GI Bill and eventually it started me off in the right direction I didn’t use it as well as I could have I was not too, you know pride about using it effectively you know so I made I sort of blew that opportunity even though I used it I those days getting 370 dollars a month from the GI Bill I got that for 48 months that was almost enough to live on you know so. MO: Make any close friendships? PM: My very best friend I met my very best friend in the Army we were…together in Colorado I met him 39 years ago…were best friends today. MO: Did you join any veteran’s organizations? PM: No I didn’t I feel like a lot of the veterans organizations are a little too right wing for me for the most part that I see I see, especially the VA, I mean not the VA but the American Legion which is supposedly a veterans, they all are a little reactionary you know of course those who 8 �were in the second world war might have a reason to be but as they die out I find that you know probably not too many people in my generation are into joining anyway like all those you know service organizations like the knights of Columbus and all that they probably appear to an older group but I often thought though that I should maybe. See the various veterans agencies you know around here Wilkesboro the… to see if I could actually try to see maybe I could become a veterans advocate for issues that I think affect veterans you know ultimately everybody seems to be whenever there’s a war but when these people come back that’s where the problem is of course you know as far as you know getting them adequate medical benefits and you know see what happened to them people get affected you know and whether its psychologically and people are usually afraid to talk about that or physically, they all we pay good lip service to veterans all of this but ultimately when they come back it’s a joke I think so that’s something I would like to maybe involve myself in a bit further. MO: How long did it take you to jump-start that career? How did you get to be a History Professor here at Appalachian State? PM: It took me a long long time. Like I said in fact after I got out of the Army after I started school I you know took semesters off I hitchhiked around the country again I spent most the rest of the seventies hitchhiking around I came to Boone in the late seventies…I never been south of the Mason-Dixon Line but I just hitchhiked, I had been writing to a girl who lived in Boone for a year I never met her just sort of was a roommate of mine it was his finance it was her roommate we talked on the phone one night so I decided to hitchhike out here and visit. I fell in love with the area and moved back and eventually got my degree in history and my masters degree I did not get my…undergraduate degree, I had an undergraduate degree in English but didn’t get my degree in history until I was 40 I didn’t get my masters till I was 45 which I why I didn’t go on for a doctors it was too late and I thought so…it was, it took me a long time I did not have that sense of direction you know I was just sort of being buffered around by the breeze I guess you could say. MO: Did you military experience influence you thinking about war or about the military in general? PM: Oh yes well I had already had strong thoughts about it I mean it wasn’t like I was a vet, you know gun ho for the Vietnam war before hand I wouldn’t have probably enlisted if they hadn’t told me that they were already weren’t sending people over that was the thing of course recruiters lie to you unless you get a sheet of paper saying something I say don’t, to students today don’t sign up unless you get something in writing. But I am as a historian you know I knew a little about Vietnam before most people did because surprisingly my father was in Vietnam in 1962 before two years before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution he was over there in the air force as a ostensibly as a meteorologist but ultimately as a military advisor so I was 9 years old ten years old when he came back I was interesting I knew a little about Vietnamese history and culture before I was even 12 years old and…after being in that war sort of realizing what and all the consequences the information that came out about it 9 �the secrets bombing of Cambodia by Nixon and Kissinger the way the war was conducted the way we got involved made me look back I did not want to listen to you know. I wanted to know for myself the truth of it all and I think having learned that in fact in the spring I would be teaching the history of Vietnam class at Caldwell community college at Caldwell and so I am going to try to put my knowledge and my you know perspective at least to work there obviously there’s lots of ways to look at it but I think that was the defining moment for my generation and probably American history because all the cultural wars that are being still fought today I think in this country are the results of what took place during the Vietnam War of response whether its either positive or negative. I think you can still draw those, draw those battle lines and see that you know its either on one side where you don’t you know…you think that maybe for instance that the reasons we go to war are wrong that the motivation the…the response and ultimately whether or not you should be drafted to fight what you consider an unjust war why do we go to war you know those very things of course you have, what desensitized me and probably everybody who came of age at that time. MO: What do you feel, how do you feel about soldiers nowadays? PM: Well I…I…excuse me I'm sorry Marshall I didn’t meant to talk over you. MO: No continue. PM: Well, it seems to me that in the time I have been teaching that the students that I have that are veterans are a lot more right wing than the ones that I…the people I was in the army with and the people who study you know the veterans who are my age…I don’t know why that I think probably the draft meant that you get a broader representation of society in the military whereas of course they it seems that people do join up at least are the ones who are highly motivated to begin with perhaps and may have a certain perspective about the military to begin with whether its you look at it ok…as oppose to being able to stand back or feel like you know they didn’t want to be in the military in the first place. I do think…and I have some veterans in Caldwell community college where I just started you know I picked up some classes the other night and I have a few veterans and there just like the other ones pretty outspoken about what they think the way this country is and they…I would just say that today’s student seems to be a little more...right wing in nature than the ones I came up with. MO: If you could do it all again, would you have hitchhiked down from Alaska? PM: Yes, I…I have to say even though the army as I look back on it I didn’t want o learn those lessons I'm not even sure what lessons I did learn if I learned any I would probably say for a long part of my life I thought that was probably one of the most biggest mistakes I’ve done you cant really go back and second guess in fact…I was 50 years old before I fell in love and I told my wife and I’ve told her this since the 8 years we’ve been together I said darling if I had to go 10 �through everything I had to go through that I’ve done already if that is what it would have took to get to you then I would gladly go back and do it all over again so in that sense in my life was going to take me in places you know I use to think it was absolutely why did I go through this but then I talk to people you know then find my experience was pretty unique that I had things happen to me that nobody else did that I survived them ultimately you know I feel like I came out of it I wouldn’t go back. I wouldn’t want to go through it again but I would not trade it for what it gave me to give me this sort of unique sensibility of things so in that, in that sense I don’t regret it there’s some things I wish I hadn’t seen but…you know again it...it made me just my reaction to it you know not everybody spent eight or nine years hitchhiking around the country either so you know that was a consequence the things I learned I mean yeah I met my best friend out of it that’s good enough. MO: And I should have asked you this before but since your father was in the Air Force did that I guess push you or did you ever want to? PM: No it didn’t...at all it didn’t affect me one little bit. MO: He didn’t influence you at all? PM: He was in the air force even though I wouldn’t ever get the sense that he was there because the Air Force was a little different of course he didn’t run, he wasn’t a military type really who made people, I had friends who’s fathers would make them you know stand at inspections but that wasn’t the way it was my father sold also real estate and stuff so he had I saw him just as much with a suit on as I did with a you know uniform so that didn’t affect me and I was already estranged from him anyways so it wasn’t like I was trying to prove anything to anybody you know so. MO: Is there anything you would like to add or anything you would like to share? PM: Well, you know again I’d say that…for anybody who wants to go to the military I guess the thing is if you know what you want to do with it then if you can make…if you can…if you have your own agenda then you can probably us the military to your…you know…benefit by learning enough and getting the GI Bill and you know probably for people who need a little direction might need you know some time to think about it… I still think that maybe you know I'm not again, not for the draft in the military but I am in favor, some kind of form for some national service for 18 or 19 year olds to I’ve them some direction to give them a sense of this country you know so its not just the military that actually is you know should have all the money thrown to it. I'm really against that in a way I as a sergeant when I got out of the army I was only making 440 dollars a month which was...maybe live able then but I see the weight scales now that we have an army that has to almost make pay comparable to civilian occupations even though a lot of the soldiers are on food stamps so that’s a problem as well but I just wonder if we did have national service where you could go into he military is one option you could maybe go into the equivalent of the civilian conservation corps like they had back in the 30’s where you would 11 �work on you know just go out there and plant trees or be in nature just do something to be to give service to this country its almost like a Robert Heimland idea military or some kind of service to almost a citizen. MO: So you think it should be I guess obligated? PM: I think that you know it seems almost reactionary you know and I'm not that way at all but I think to act first of all to give a sense of citizenship and maybe a sense of…commitment in a way you know for maybe generations might have lost that it does. I agonize about these feelings I have about something like that but I think ultimately it would be advantageous for people to get to know the country you know for people to involve themselves in something for students for kids who are kids 18 or 19 a that age maybe between your 18th and 21st or 23rd you know year you have to put in at least one year of doing you know maybe two years of this or one year of that but actually getting out from where you live and going out and giving something back. That would give a sense of citizenship that actually in a way you know would allow you to maybe to…to feel you know to get a real sense of what this country is so that’s one way of doing it. MO: All right PM: How does that sound Marshall? MO: Sounds great. PM: Ha-ha. MO: Well. PM: Anything else? MO: No. Anything else from you? PM: Where’s my free pizza? MO: I’ll get it to you next year. PM: Yes. MO: I actually might start taking that class at Caldwell that sounds really interesting. PM: Well its about time you know well for one thing our department chair person here for a long time had his had his doctoral you know experience in Vietnam so it wasn’t like I was going to be able to teach a class here but…they evidently some guy was teaching up in Caldwell has sort of had a break down so I came in just last week to take over his classes and they were so than thankful they offered me a Vietnam history class in the spring so you know take that. And I'm going to try again I’m…the way I look at it… was just a big mistake just a huge mistake and we should’ve never been there in the first place and…when we were there our policies were entirely 12 �wrong and…if you’re interested in all that there’s a really good book written by a guy name Neil Shield it got a Pulitzer Prize its called Jean Paul Van and the American Experience in Vietnam. It talks about a colonel who was there before Gulf of Tonkin and was there watching the South Vietnamese Army be constructed and what we were doing supplying and that’s when we only had 10 or 11,000 advisors over there nearly the time my father was and he kept saying were making a dreadful mistake this is not going to work we are really this government is not supported by its people and that’s the bottom line. There we were supporting a government that was not supported by its people. You know, as many weapons as they needed we didn’t care enough about you know the…democracy whatever you want to call it basically it was a repressive regime same thing that happened in South Korea in the 1950’s you know it was same thing ultimately if you look at the history of Vietnam. In 1956, when the Geneva Peace Accords were signed we were signatory to that but we were looking for a free election in 1958 but when that election was going to be held American diplomats realized that Ho Chi Min the communist would’ve won in a free election in a nut shell he would’ve dominated Diam who was our choice who was a French educated playboy who didn’t even fight the Japanese or the French during the Second World War during the French War and so he spoke English and was Catholic so he was our boy in Vietnam we propped him up for ten years and he didn’t do anything for us ultimately drugged us in I think it was one of the biggest mistakes in American history getting involved just as a big mistake as attacking Iraq. MO: Well, that’s another interview I guess. PM: Yes, I know. MO: Well, this concludes our oral history and I thank you so much. PM: Thank you Marshall. 13 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/fc4915af983ab57b148b10d95f193171.mp3 729fba484d030adf3753ff85303ce739 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Maney, Paul Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Ospina, Marshall Interview Date 10/12/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:06 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Tag Alaska, Fort Dix, Fort Carson, Judge Advocate Generals, hazing, suicide, abuse, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning, 82nd Airborne, infantry, 4th Infantry Division, practical joke, Colorado State, GI Bill, Wilkesboro, Caldwell Community College, Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Professor Paul Maney, 12 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Maney, Paul Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Marshall Ospina interviews Paul Maney who served during the Vietnam War. He describes his time in Basic Training as very dark and disturbing. He was trained in Fort Dix, but never deployed, and spent most of his time doing administrative work in Colorado. He did not like serving in the military and got out as soon as he could. He used the GI Bill to go to school and eventually became a professor of military history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maney, Paul Ospina, Marshall Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 13 pages Language A language of the resource English ARCOM Colorado Springs Fort Carson Fort Dix GI Bill infantry Paul Maney Vietnam