1 50 3 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9fa6eb5176ba64da1380ca059db66d7b.pdf 3fc180388b1b6b77e308ece7b62ad854 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Colonel David Hubner talks about his career in the military spanning multiple decades. He began in Germany, was deployed in Iraq a couple of times and moved around the United States to several training camps. He retired after his sons graduated high school and his body began to show signs of wear and tear. He explains that active involvement in one's community is necessary and that serving the military allowed him to gain a solid perspective. PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Retired Col. David Scott Hubner Sr. 10/15/12. Sunbury, GA Scott Hubner – It is October 14th 2012, and I am recording retired Col David S Hubner for an interview for the Appalachian State US Military History class. Alright, Col Sir, Where and when were you born? COL Hubner – I was born in January 1961 in Montclair, New Jersey. Scott Hubner – Alright, did you move around a lot younger? COL Hubner – Well, my father was an IBM field engineer so when I was twelve years old we moved to North Carolina. We lived in Cary, North Carolina, my dad was working in the research triangle as a field engineer, and so we bought a house there and I went to middle school and high school in Cary, North Carolina near Raleigh. Scott Hubner – So then you went on to college and joined the Army after college? COL Hubner – I had a high SAT score and got a letter from West Point and the Citadel. And I had a friend who had a sister who went to Appalachian and when I found out that Appalachian had coed and the same ROTC commissioning program that they had at the citadel I decided to go to Appalachian. I had never visited there, so I went up there after I graduated in May 1979, August 1979 Scott Hubner – Alright, so studying, doing ROTC at Appalachian what branch did you want to move into? COL Hubner - Well when I started ROTC I wasn’t sure if I was going to join the army. I had an uncle who was in the navy and he had traveled around the world and that interested me. I had always wanted to see Europe and Germany as my great grandfather had been a German and my other grandpa had been a Scot. So I studied at Appalachian I didn’t contract until my junior year because I wasn’t sure that’s what I wanted to do, but after being around the program for a while and having a roommate who was in ROTC I thought what you know ill go in for a tour and see what its like, Get stationed in Germany. And I was intrigued by from my military history studies the cavalry and armor in particular, and what they had done in modern warfare so I decided that you know I was going to do something I wanted to be full bore I didn’t want to be an admin guy in the army so I decided that after doing commandos and doing a lot of foot patrols that being a tanker would be a lot more fun and you know tanks lead the war. Scott Hubner – Alright, so when did you commission and I assume you commissioned Armor? COL Hubner – I did, I got my first choice because I did well at advanced camp and despite a mediocre academic career at Appalachian. I had a good strong camp and was able to get my first choice which meant I was able to get armor and active duty. So I actually graduated in 1984 and spent an extra year. I �changed majors midway thru from business to English and when I figured out I was going to go in the army and they told me it really didn’t matter what my degree was, I know that’s changed some. But I went to Fort Knox for officer basic in June of 1984 after graduating from Appalachian. Scott Hubner – What do you recall from your first days in service? COL Hubner – You know it was kind of scary because you know here I am driving up to fort Knox Kentucky and I’m a brand new lieutenant. You know I’m in my class A’s I have to go sign in, weigh in and go through all of the admin stuff. You know it was a nerve racking thing at first and then you start meeting other guys from others schools, who were there for the same basic course and they put you in tank crews when you’re in armor so I had three guys I was pretty close too and we did a lot of things together from different schools. One was from UT (Tennessee), one was from Gettysburg College and the third was from Arizona so we were a good mixed bunch and you know it was a bonding thing. And I took it very seriously because I knew that I was out of college and this was now a profession. I wanted to be good at it; I didn’t feel like I knew a whole lot about armor when I got there. Scott Hubner – Alright, so shortly after you commissioning, where did you find yourself? What was your first assignment? COL Hubner – Well my first assignment was to Fort Knox KY and I was not happy, so I called armor branch and they wound up getting me a trade with a guy who wanted to stay close to home. I really wanted to go to Germany and see Europe because I wasn’t sure how long this army thing was going to last and I figured that you know that I should have an opportunity to do that. And that was where at that time because the cold war the Army considered the best units were over there. So I wanted to go to an armor/cavalry unit or a tank battalion that was on the border or in Germany and I got my wishes. I was sent in November to Bovergan, Germany. Which was then considered to be the first infantry division forward, it was a brigade plus of mechanized and I was assigned to second battalion 37th armor. Creighton Abrams was the 37th tank so he was our kind of our honorary guy and I was a young lieutenant platoon leader in Charlie Company, second battalion 37th armor. On M60 A3 tanks, that’s how old I am. Scott Hubner – So when was the first time you saw the war like experience, in the Gulf War? COL Hubner – Well, after Germany I went to the armor officer advanced course and I got married towards the end of my time in Germany a lady I met at Appalachian in German class actually and she came up a couple times in the summer to teach for Appalachian in the summer program. So we dated and decided to get married so we came back and I wanted to be closer to her parents in South Carolina and my parents in North Carolina. So I asked for Fort Stewart and at first they didn’t have it, but eventually someone resigned or something happened because I was eventually able to get my assignment to Fort Stewart. I was assigned initially to second brigade 24th infantry on the staff as a planner and eventually after an NTC rotation was moved down to take Delta Company 1-64 Armor. Before I went down to delta company they were shooting a gunnery and the guy that was leaving delta company did not want to shoot, he was working on going to recruiting command, not going to be in armor anymore so he wasn’t excited about getting on the tank and the battalion commander offered me the opportunity to go through gunnery. Of course I had to do the gunnery skills test and go through �at night after my day job as brigade staff, go through training on the machine guns and everything and then go through crew drills. That was a fortuitist experience for me because that was the crew that I would go to war with. So we bonded very early and if we hadn’t had that experience, we would’ve jumped on that tank without having gone through any training and it’s a fairly complex beast and if you don’t know what you’re doing you can get hurt or you can hurt somebody else. So I trained with that crew, we shot a gunnery, we qualified and then a couple months later we were on an airplane headed to Saudi Arabia to be the line in the sand. Scott Hubner – Did you see combat in this tour? COL Hubner – Yes, I had the ability to use a LORAN and I was pretty good with a map I had been a scout platoon leader in Germany and the battalion commander had known me from Germany he was our S3 for a year. He knew me when I was a scout so he wanted my company to lead the brigade into Iraq. We actually crossed the berm my company, the night before the attack and secured crossing points in Iraq. Then the next morning the battalion task force came through and we started the advance into Iraq. It was three days of road marching, a couple of good skirmishes, and then we did a deliberate attack on the Republican Guards Secured Airfield in Jalibah, Iraq. The in southern Iraq we got in a fight there with the Republican Guards. A couple kids got hurt, some killed. Not in my company but because my company was in the lead we saw a good bit of action, a couple of bronze stars for valor. We had a kid on a plow tank, his tank got caught in wire and jumped off of the tank under fire and pulled the wire out of the plow while he was being shot at. So it was a pretty wild experience and then we chased the Republican guard towards Basrah until they finally had a peace settlement. Basically, four or five days of nothing but attack, penetration, pursuit, and then cease fire. Scott Hubner – Was that the last time you got into real contact in your Army career or was there another time? COL Hubner – I then went on to be an S3(Staff Operations Officer) at Fort Riley, Kansas. After spending a little time as a PAO(Political Affairs Officer) and going to the Majors course. After that I was assigned to an ROTC duty at East Tennessee State University as a PMS, I thought that was pretty much it, I was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel. Then I got a call from a guy who had known me, a two start general, General Craddock who had selected me to command a tank battalion in the First Infantry Division in Europe. I went over to Europe and commanded that battalion deployed it to Kosovo which was kind of a low intensity conflict at that time and then we got the call to go to Iraq for OIF II(Operation Iraqi Freedom II). In OIF II we were in Sala Adin which was a very hotly contested area of the Sunni insurgency. My task force was centered in the city of Balaad and fought in Samarra in operation Baton Rouge. Also fought during the first election and before that the unit was awarded the Valorous Unit Citation, to this day the proudest award because that was a unit award and not many units get to be chosen to be valorous units. So I was the commander of 1-77 armor for three years in Schweinfurt, Germany. But only in Schweinfurt for about 10 months we were deployed twice, once to the Balkans, and once to OIF II. We had 90 plus purple hearts. Six of my soldiers were killed. I got blown up a couple times by IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) and also had a mortar round land on top of the room I was in. But we made it through pretty much unscathed I was blessed. �Scott Hubner – After OIF II where did your military career go? COL Hubner – Well after battalion command I was selected for the war college. After I was at the war college I was called by our branch and they said basically you are a top choice for brigade command, but we’ve only got two armor brigades open and then a training brigade and we think you should wait a year and try to compete for one of the maneuver brigades. Because I had been in battalion command for three years and I had been through what I had been through I didn’t mind taking the training brigade I thought It would be a good command. So I told them I was going to go ahead and compete and I was selected after the war college to go ahead and command the 1-94th armor brigade which is the Armor branches training brigade. I trained the 19-Delta Scouts and 19- Kilo Tankers, tank and Bradley mechanics and they also had some basic training units, at that time they did. So it was a seven battalion brigade and the most interesting thing about that was, I took command and we were in a surge in Iraq. So we had a heavy training load and our attrition went very high and there was some concern that we were letting to many people go in the Army. But I think because we held that standard our branch is better off now with enlisted soldiers than they might’ve been than some of the other branches because they let some people in that should not have been in during that period. And that why there is a lot of the discipline problems that are in the army today. So after that brigade command I had two children that were both in high school, I wanted to try to see them through in one school. So I met the commander of the ROTC General Bartell. He interviewed me and wanted me to come be his 1st brigade commander which was the military colleges of the country so I did that for a year. Then he asked me to be the 1st chief of staff at Fort Knox, which I did and enjoyed as we tried to bring ROTC headquarters to Fort Knox, which we did. At that point I was nearing the end of the road, physically I had some issues with my back and my sons were out of high school so there wasn’t a whole lot more I really wanted to do in the army at that point. But I did deploy one more time; I got the opportunity to go work for General Bartell in Iraq, in a brigadier generals position. I was the chief of current operations for all US forces Iraq. It was a great experience and it was kind of a neat thing for me because I had been in the original desert shield/desert storm when we first got into a conflict with Iraq, I then had fought in OIF II as a task force commander and had been there for the first election, and then as a United States forces Iraq senior staff officer I got to help plan with the withdrawal and the end of the conflict in Iraq for US forces. So that to me was perfect, I got to do that for six months and I submitted my retirement paperwork before I left so that I could come back and get all of the VA and medical things done, my sons were now out of high school and so I retired with full honors after 28 years of service. I went to work with some guys, actually my boss was a guy I knew in desert storm so it all comes around I guess. Scott Hubner – So you retired as a full bird Colonel, what do you remember about taking that step, that last day in the Army, retirement? COL Hubner – I really, because I didn’t want to dwell on the past I really just stayed focused on the current and the future. I kind of learned from the army to live your life that way, not to get stuck on the past too much, maybe when I’m older, later and when I stop working. I was hustling trying to get moved out, get all of my VA stuff done. So it was a sense of relief that it was all done, I felt like I had a good run. I also felt like I had done everything I had wanted to do in the army. It was time to go and hand it over to younger folks that were hard charging and ready to lead. Also as I senior leader you see sometimes the �army goes through ups and downs and I felt that I did not want to go through another downturn where we reduce forces, and cut civilian jobs. Because as a senior leader, the generals expect the colonels to carry the mail, the bad news and though the colonels don’t always agree with the decisions of course they salute and move out and do that. I was tired of doing that as a chief of staff, that’s why I also took that duty in Iraq, we also got a general in Cadet Command General Mark McDonald but he wanted his own chief an artillery guy so it was time for me to move on and it really gave me the opportunity to reflect so now I look at it and say “now what can I do to make my mark as a private citizen” so that’s what I’m trying to do now. Scott Hubner – Is there anything you would like to add that we haven’t covered in this interview thus far? COL Hubner – I think that everyone should serve their country in some form or fashion whether it is their community or nation. I really think that should be a prerequisite to citizenship or at least to being able to vote. If you have never been a nurse or teacher, firemen, policemen, or a volunteer at something you should do that. I was blessed to have the physical and mental capability to be an officer in the Army and I loved it, I don’t regret a minute of it. I think it’s a great start for young people and it gives you a good perspective. I think it’s very important to help you with your perspective of the world. I raised my children to be citizens of the world not just citizens of just North Carolina or South Carolina or whatever. I want them to understand that we are blessed here and only by the hard work and bravery of the ones before us. So I want them to have that mental outlook. Scott Hubner – Thank you for your service, Retired COL David S Hubner. Thank you for your interview, I appreciate your time. COL Hubner – Thank you. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f173b496627fce1dda86d7b153acc751.mp3 f70a6fcfbf5e7a172d31af3aeefed5d3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hubner, David S. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hubner, Scott Interview Date 10/15/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:19:13 File name 2013_063_Hubner_DavidScott 2013_063_Hubner_DavidScott_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Scott Hubner, 15 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hubner, Scott Hubner, David S. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Hubner, David S. Veterans United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Colonel David Hubner describes his service in the military which spanned multiple decades. He began in Germany, was deployed a couple of times to Iraq, and moved around the United States to various training camps. He retired after his sons graduated from high school and his body began to show physical signs of wear and tear. He explains that serving one's community is necessary and being a part of the military allowed him to gain a solid perspective. ASU colonel Fort Knox Germany Gulf War Jalibah Iraq ROTC senior leader https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f0781312b2b8caee7130ea4929bcb126.pdf 0acd0cd966ad2268ce6f9921314f5139 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Colonel Russell Olson Boone, NC 15 October 2011 CO: Russell Olson, Jr., Colonel BH: Ben Hedgepath LH: Laura Hedgepath BH: Can you tell me who you are and where you were born and raised. CO: My name is Russell V. Olson Jr., and I was born in Oakland California on August 3rd, 1947. BH: What branch of military did you serve in and did you see any wars? RO: I spent 30 years as a field artillery officer in the US Army and saw combat in Vietnam. BH: What was your rank and when did you serve? RO: Well, I entered the Army as a second lieutenant, and retired as a full colonel. In Vietnam I was a first lieutenant. BH: When and why did you choose the military? RO: My father spent 27 years in the Navy. So I was naturally predisposed to service in the military. Maybe it was in the genes I don’t know. And I also went to a military college in Charleston, South Carolina. BH: Had you decided to go into the military before you went to the Citadel? Or was that after you… RO: I feel like I would have probably taken ROTC at wherever... BH: So there was a lot of patriotism at the Citadel? RO: At the Citadel? (ha-ha) I would say that was a center of American patriotism. There were no anti war demonstrations at the Citadel. BH: That's interesting. And good. So tell me about your college life and your training. 1 �RO: Well, the Citadel was the military college of South Carolina. It started in 1842, and when I went there we were called cadets and not students. We wore uniforms all the time. We lived in barracks in highly structured regiments society. There were ROTC programs there for Army, Air Force, did not have one for the navy at the time. I would say that most cadets that went to the Citadel were actively involved in the ROTC to with the intent of becoming commissioned officers upon graduation. I majored in history, because I enjoyed history and reading and I really did not give a lot of thought about what I would do with this degree. BH: So, you graduated college in 1969, which was the same year as the draft. What was your opinion of the draft? RO: Well, I know now a lot more about the draft then I did then. I studied the subject, I have taught history. As you probably know, we have had a number of drafts in our nation's history. Draft in the Civil War, World War One, World War Two, and then throughout almost the entire Cold War. It was during the late 1 9 70s that we switched to an all-volunteer force. My personal feeling is that the draft, as it was applied to Vietnam was inherently unfair and I think it was a mistake for our government to give deferrals to people who simply go them because they could afford to go to college. BH: Were most people that were drafted. Did they feel like they were being pushed to fight unwillingly? RO: My first assignment for the military we got a lot of draftees in our units. This was in the early 1970s, you know ’70, ’71 and ’72. There were some moral problems. Quite frankly, I did not detect much difference between soldiers that were drafted and those that were volunteering. A lot of the draftees' were just adopted the attitude that "we do not like being here but I am just going to do what it takes, stay out of trouble, get out." So as far as discipline and drug use…you couldn't really tell who was a draftee and who was a volunteer. BH: Did you ever have any or were you ever nervous about leading men who did not seem to or want to be there. Or who don't seem to want to fight? Was there a big difference? RO: I personally think that the one key to leadership is to establish a rapport with your soldiers. And you do that by a variety of ways, communication, sharing in hardships, demonstrating to them that you care about, as individuals. And you also, number one care about the mission. BH: Right, I can see that. So, who were you in command of, who were these soldiers that you were... RO: When I first entered the Army I was in Germany with an artillery unit and I was the platoon leader. When I was in Vietnam I was an advisor, and I wasn’t in command of 2 �anybody. And we can talk about that more later. After Vietnam I was a battery commander at Fort Sill, Oklahoma where I had about a 100 soldiers under my command. Much later I was battalion commander at Fort Drum, New York. With about 500 soldiers and millions of dollars of equipment under my command. As a senior officer and full coronel, I performed primarily staff jobs the next to last job as a full colonel was our defense at Akshay at New Deli, India. And that was primarily an intelligence gathering position. BH: Okay. You said you were an advisor in Vietnam, Who were you advising. And what did that consist of? RO: Let me give you some background of why I was in Vietnam. BH: Okay, sure. RO: As you are well aware, after President Nixon was elected, he ran on a platform of Vietnameseization and our troop levels peaked at about 500,000 right after he was inaugurated. Then he started to have a phased withdraw and hand the battle over to the Vietnamese in a program he called Vietnameseization. By the time I came to active duty and went to Germany we were not sending a lot of folks to Germany. I actually had to volunteer to go to Vietnam. And the reason I did so was because my best friend in my battalion, Jack Hips, came down on Levy for Vietnam. Inexpediently. I figured if Jack was going to Vietnam, I wanted to go to Vietnam too. So I volunteered and my paperwork was accepted. By this time there were no artillery units we had no US army artillery units in Vietnam. We were down to a very low number of troops. The Army sent me to eight weeks of Vietnam language school. I went to Fort Bragg to special with Special Forces center and did advising school. And did Vietnamese language school. And I hit Vietnam and they sent me up to the central highlands where I worked with the Montagnards, who did not speak Vietnamese. I was able to use my college French and I also had two interpreters we got along fine. But I was there primarily just to tag along with the district chief who was a Montagnards, who was a lieutenant coronel. Especially I was there to show the flag and report back to our headquarters. As I mentioned earlier the day after I got to my ultimate assignment up in the highlands. The only other American who was there went on a raid and never came back. Now, I don't blame him. This was his second tour of Vietnam, and he felt like he had paid his dues, the war was winding down, and when he got back from his raid he stayed at the provincial headquarters. I got there with all my new best friends. The sense of isolation, I was surrounded by people who didn't speak the same language, didn’t have the big cultural gab. But I got along with them. BH: That's good. You've covered where you were stationed and what your jobs were. What was it like when you arrived in Vietnam, How did the locals treat you? RO: The first thing, when we got off the plane, was the heat and humidity, ha-ha. I mean I 3 �don't know if you've spent any time in Southe ast Asia but you can, its very difficult to describe the heat and humidity. BH: I mean it can get pretty hot down here RO: And also, we landed at Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base in Saigon. And they put us on these armored busses with uh bars on the windows to keep the grenades from getting in. So there was some tension. And because this was my first combat assignment, intellectually, I knew it could be dangerous. But until I got off the plane and they put us on this vehicle with these bar on it. Everyone was running around outside with a weapon. Then I started to say, "this is the real stuff'. But then when I went to a replacement station called Camp Alpha, where they decided what they were going to do with me. Uh, fortunately I had run into another Citadel graduate who had actually been at my wedding. So he kind of took care of me for a day or two while we were in Saigon. BH: it's a small world, did you always feel like you had to be on your toes and you were in danger, Or were these bars on the bus for example just a precaution. RO: I guess there had been some attacks, so this was a prurient precaution. After awhile you don't ever get used to it, But I mean I tried not to become obsessed with fear and have the ability of my actions be ruled by that. I knew there were risks in involved. But I felt like as long as I was with the district chief, who had a security attachment with him. BH: Faith in your commanders. So, did you ever see combat as an artillery advisor? RO: Not as an artilleryman; you know, I heard shots fired in anger while I was over there, particularly on the last night. The night before the cease-fire went into effect was my worst. BH: Before the Tet. RO: Not before Tet, this was after Tet. This was in 1973. Tet occurs every year in mid January. Tet is the kind of like the Chinese Lunar. And it's a big deal in all of Southeast Asia. Whenever anyone hears about Tet they think about 1968, when we were caught with our pants down. When I was over there in the Tet of 1973, for all intensive purposes the war was almost over. I was still out there until the cease- f i r e . As you might be aware of, at the Paris Peace Conferences, when our side or their side negotiated the peace treaty that was to go into effect in mid or late January, in 1973. Well in the days and weeks leading up to that. There was a push to grab land. Because there beliefs that if our flag was on it then it is our territory. So in the weeks and days preceding the cease- f i r e went into effect at 8 in the morning, uh, the South Vietnamese government was putting flags all over the place. The night before the cease- f i r e was ...and I'll show you some pictures if you’re interested BH: Absolutely. 4 �RO: Pictures of what our camp looked like. I don't want to say I was fearful, maybe a little apprehensive and anxious. And I knew were going to see some action that night. In fact I had written a letter to my wife expressing concern about how, it was like "Pardon me, I'm the only American out here. Were probably going to be hit, etc.” I got that letter on a helicopter before it took off, and so then I went around the perimeter. And again these were Montagnards RFPR (Regional Force, Popular Force), you know, kind of irregular forces. And they were out there on the perimeter. And they've got their families with them out there (ha-ha) And I'm just thinking, what is going to happen if a family member gets hit. Is that soldier going to fight harder because of that or is he going to leave his position to go take care of his family member. Anyway so we go, so we're waiting. Sure enough as the sun goes down, and it was a dark night, and we didn't have any of that nice night vision glasses that I was talking about, and uh, it was particularly dark that night too. And the firing started. And uh, we had two 105mm howitzers in our compound that the South Vietnamese army manned. And someone had the great idea that they were going to crank the tubes up to the maximum elevation and they were going to fire an illumination round. And that’s a valid technique, self-illumination. And uh, there was a big explosion as the round fired and the illumination round goes up and you hear a little pop as the flare base ejects out of the 105 round, and it kind of just floated down. And the 105 illumination round is just pitiful, but you can see a little something out there. And because of the light, you felt a little bit better, but then the flares hit the ground before they could completely burn out. BH: Oh no... , RO: This was late January during the dry season, and they had not done a good job of clearing the debris, so the next thing we know we've got a wall of flame coming our direction and sense we had already been fired on and the artillery was firing, small arms firing, a sheet a flame coming at us, and the claymore mines start going off and the fear factor was starting to go up just a bit. But God was good, and the next morning when the sun came up and the smoke cleared, we were all still alive. BH: I can't even imagine. RO: The Vietcong had, been busy (Olson is retrieving a Vietnamese helmet and a flag from within the helmet). This is a Vietcong flag that was pulled out of the perimeter wire. One of the Montagnards went out and collected it as a souvenir for me. So then at 8:00 in the morning cease-fire went live. And within a couple of days I left there and went back to the providence headquarters and reversed the process. I went from the providence headquarters down to the camp Alpha in Saigon, turned in my weapons, because I had been issued an M16 when I got to Vietnam. And I carried that everywhere. When I got to my alternant assignment I got my 45 as well. So when I show you these pictures later on, you'll see me carrying an M16 and a 45 as well. I always kind of felt that the M16 was a piece of 5 �plastic. But it was always kind of comforting having that big 45 right next to you. BH: I'm sure. So how close were you to normally t o 105 artillery to the front line? RO: Well, the 105 artillery is right now our smallest artillery piece. It has a range of about 10 miles, you know 15 km. In order to be effective, it has to be pretty close to the front lines. Now the 155 mm howitzer that we have today has a rocket-assisted projectile that will kick it to a range of 20 plus miles. BH: That's impressive. So you were mainly advising, you weren't in charge of any planning of battles RO: Not while I was there. Again, there were combat units in the providence that I was located. But they were all South Vietnamese units. We had two South Vietnamese artillery pieces in our compound. And we would have interactions with them, because my Vietnamese was quite good. "toy now tep nee ip net too???"....... (Olson is speaking in Vietnamese) I mean I could handle it pretty good. BH: This is going to be fun to transcribe (ha-ha). RO: But I received them periodically. I had limited contact. My primary mission there was to tag along with the district chiefs, eat the same food he ate, sleep with him wherever we were. We went out sometimes and visited a village, and I'll show you pictures of this, but the Montagnards they had their houses up on stilts. They were Montagnards long houses. They might be 30-40 feet long, assume a room 30-40 feet long like this, and its up on stilts. About eight feet of the ground. For a number of reasons; snakes, scorpions, animals could be underneath there for shelter and some protection against intruders. And we would go out there and I would find myself you know, we're not going back to the compound, we're staying here tonight. And then all of a sudden we’re sleeping on the bare floor with 30-40 complete strangers. No electricity, you wake up, wanting to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and you don't know where you are or anything. All you know is that you're eight feet off the ground and you don't even know which end of the log house you wanted to go out of (laughter). BH: Its interesting to me that you were mostly surrounded by South Vietnamese friendlies and you don't have many American soldier with you except for the generals that you were talking about. RO: The only Americans were back at the providence headquarters, and again, we dropped our force structure down. There was a lieutenant colonel that was the providence senior advisor, and he had a couple of majors and a couple of captains and one force lieutenant. He also had a couple of civilians that were in charge of various pacification programs. 6 �BH: That makes sense. So, I notice that you got a lot of medals, very impressive metals for that matter. Can you describe how you got maybe your favorite one? Or how you got one. RO: I don't know if I have a favorite one or not. A couple of those were combat awards. The Vietnamese Service Medal and the Vietnamese Campaign Medal those two medals were primarily for everyone who got off the plane, we get those for stepping a foot on south Vietnamese soil. The other two awards are the Bronze Star and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. And I had to do something to get those. BH: Is there a nice story behind it, or? RO: Just doing my job. The Bronze Star was a US award the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry was presented by the Vietnamese. BH: My question is how did soldiers entertain themselves? But what I'm now wondering about is what was the difference between the American and Vietnamese soldier in how they entertained themselves? RO: Interesting. This is brining back a flood of memories. My contact with the outside world was a PRC 2500 radio. We got this bamboo and made some pitiful antennas up. And if the weather conditions, or conditions were right, I could talk back to the providence headquarters. And I would generally just make a convo check in the morning and a convo check at night and I would also have a shortwave radio that I brought with me so that I could get radio Saigon. We would be out in rural South Vietnam. No paved roads, no electricity, we had a generator, but we would only want to run it for an hour or two at night. I would read. But the Montagnards, particularly the district chiefs, they loved to play Gin Rummy. Often we would spend an hour or two at night. The district chief who was a colonel, one of my interpreters, a good interpreter. We had two interpreters, one of which we used as the cook. And uh normally one of his officers and us would just sit around and play cards. Often minor stakes. But it was really impressive because often times the Montagnards were very stoic, but when they were playing Gin Rummy, I mean they would just go (Olson imitates an exaggerated way that the Montagnards would throw down their cards). This is kind of disgusting by the way, but one of the highlights of my week. We had a latrine that periodically we had to keep the mosquitoes down and clean up. So we would go out there and pour a can of gasoline. And I always wanted to do that, I wanted to be the one to do that (laughter) so I would go out there and do that with the gasoline and shout “Everybody back! It would go "Phhhfew!" (explosion noise) BH: Literal meaning “fire in the hole,” I guess RO: Ha-ha, yeah I liked that. There were a couple of other funny things that happened. 7 �BH: Were there ever any pranks that got pulled? RO: Yes. One pops in my head. Again, this was near the end. And was starting to get a little tense. And I knew the end was coming there. And so I would go into the latrine, and I had taken my helmet and my flak vest, and my M16; which I normally didn't do. I was in the latrine and the artillery started firing for one reason or another. And then my interpreter took some gravel, and threw it on the roof of the latrine. And time it so that, again there was so much going on, you don't have time to think. And all of a sudden you hear these explosions and stuff. And I thought that it might have been incoming. And I Should have know better. The sound of a round going out is unbelievably different from then one coming in. There is just no comparison. I grabbed my steal pot and my flak vest, and my M16. And I run out there in my boxer shorts and flip-flops. And he and his buddies are standing there going "Ha-ha-ha!" and they took a picture (laughter) and I can show you that picture if you want to. BH: I'd love to. That's great. RO: That was one prank. Another funny thing and this was not intended to be a funny thing. I share this story with my students. Again, I would go along with the district advisor, and eat and drink whatever he ate and drank. We went out one day. And we were squatting around as Asians do, around a large pot drinking rice wine through a straw, a big straw, you know. All of a sudden I hear this terrible squeal. I look over my shoulder and I see they are butchering a little pig next to me. And they burn the flesh and take the intestines and grab one end and go "Pshhhshhh." They cut intestines up into pieces about that long (about an inch) and threw it in a pot of water for about five minutes and then served it up as hors d'oeuvres. And sense I was the only white face there. They kind of come to me first. And there are about 30-40 sets of eyes watching me. And I say to myself, ''I'm not going to... I can handle this." So I grab some and put it I my mouth. And it was like chewing rubber bands. The more I chewed, the larger it got in my mouth. So finally, I made the supreme sacrifice and just swallowed it. And then for the next week or two I stressed out about getting trichinosis or some kind of intestinal disease, but I turned out okay. But that’s kind of a funny story and I like sharing it with folks. Montagnards chitins. BH: Sounds good. I'll look for it at the grocery market (laughter). So, you said you got to share food with other officers, how did that compare to the food the privates had to eat. RO: When I was with the Montagnards I ate pretty much whatever they ate; lots of rice. In fact when I got back from Vietnam, I did not eat very much rice. But I like it now. Being from the south, you would think that I would like rice, but I maxed out on rice. When I was not in Vietnam as a battery commander, I tried to be scrupulous. I did not take advantage of my position. I tried to eat the 8 �same food the soldier ate, and I tried to eat towards the tail end. Particularly as a battery commander, before I would eat I would wait for the soldiers. It wasn’t always possible as a battery commander, because there were soldier everywhere. BH: was this something you learn from your training or was this just something you decided to do? RO: I personally think that it was part of being a leader. I think it is very important that uh, not only do leaders share in hardships of their soldier, but they have to be seen sharing in the hardships of soldiers. When I was in the 10th mountain division wide infantry, being in a light infantry unit 10-12 mile long marches were a big deal. Obstacle courses were big deals. And so fourmile runs were big deals as a battalion, I would always make sure I was leading the way on that. RO: (Directed to Laura Hedgepath, who was a former student of Colonel Olson at JM Robison High School). Laura, did you know in the spring of 2010, that I crossed the 25,000 mile mark in my runners journal? LH: Yes RO: (To Laura) Did you see the picture of that? LH: I did, very cool. BH: I saw it on your website, that's amazing. That's something I could never do. RO: You'd be surprised, one step at a time. Anyway that’s just...I think it’s important that officers lead by example. And an officer is not always going to be the best at every category. But he should be above average at every category. No matter what it is. Whether it be running or the obstacle course firing the M16, M9 pistol, it doesn’t matter. BH: That makes sense. So what was your understanding during the war of why America had chosen to invade? RO: Invade!? (Olson makes a buzzing sound to exploit my folly) BH: Right, not invade, but chosen to take part in this war in Vietnam. I mean sense you have learned a bit after the war, has your opinion of why this was such an important war we needed to fight changed or evolved? RO: I'm still conflicted about that. At the time, I really didn't question it. And again, it’s easy for us today with the benefit of hindsight. To criticize our involvement in Vietnam. At the time, the communist threat was real, and 9 �remember I was born in ‘47. This week or in a day or two would start the anniversary of the start of the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. And I was 15 years old when the churches of my hometown in South Carolina went on 24-hour day, seven days a week prayer vigil as a result of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And that was serious stuff; Berlin Wall, Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. BH: A very scary time in domestic America. RO: Oh yes, and don't forget what's happening in domestic America: Lyndon Johnson announced he was not running for President, Tet of 1968, Robert F. Kennedy's assassination, Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination, race riots, we've got the Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia, Richard Nixon elected President. So at the time the Communist threat was real. And again, I supported the war because a lot of my friends were already over there. I lost classmates from the Citadel in Vietnam. The thought of not supporting the war just did not occur to me. I have studied this a lot in the intervening years. And I can now see how we kind of backed into the war. We never had a clear strategy, a clear goal. It was a failure of our political leaders to articulate our military to do I totally believe in civilian control of the military. But I think that it was a political failure our leaders did not have a clear desire to end state, stop the spread of communism. Maybe that was legitimate at the time. BH: Interesting. I think its going to be a long time before we can truly understand why. What was the first thing you wanted to do when you got home? RO: I wanted to hug and kiss my wife (laughter). BH: So what was actually the first thing you did when you got home? RO: I called my wife and said "Why weren't you out here to pick me up!?" (laughter) BH: That's funny. RO: There was some confusion about when the plane would arrive because I landed in Los Angeles. And then had a couple of stops before I landed in Greensboro airport. My wife was still a senior…no she had graduated college. She was in graduate school to get her Masters in Education. So there was a little bit of confusion about when the plane was going to arrive. 10 �BH: Do you have a favorite military book or movie on this conflict? RO: I have several favorite military books and movies. One of my favorite military movies is "Zulu". This was, are you familiar with an actor, Michael Kane? This was Michael Kane's first movie, but it was made back in the 1960s, in South Africa. The Brits had been fighting the Bores, fighting the Zulus. Because of the climatic parts of the movie is when the Welch units were about to be overrun by thousands of Zulus. They start singing "Men of Harlech," which was an original song. It popped in my head. I go crazy. I have the whole class sing along. Two other movies I like, "Black Hawk Down." I saw that movie with my son, when it first came out. It touched me on several levels, I actually had to sit down outside after we walked out of the theater. A couple of years later, we had a terrorist situation in New Deli, India. Not in New Deli, I was stationed in New Deli; we had a terrorist incident in Kashmir, India. Where Islamic terrorists kidnapped some western backpackers and for about a month we figured they would let them go like they have all of the others. But then they beheaded a Norwegian hostage and carved the initials of their organization on his chest to show they meant business. And about 36 hours later, I'm at the New Deli airport with my new best friends from Delta Force. Less than 24-hours later, I was in Kashmir. I barely have time to write my wife a note saying, "Hey, I don't know when I'll be back, pray for me." I went up there with some guys from Delta Force. The Brits sent two guys from the SAS and the Germans sent two guys from the GSG9. For a couple of months up there we tried to help the Indians rescue the hostages. We were not successful. Anyway, I got to know the guys from Delta Force pretty good. And there was no choice. They can be fairly closed mouth about what they do, but when you're with them for 24 hours a day for an extended period of time, they seem to open up a little. The lieutenant colonel who ran the Mogadishu mile. Are you familiar with the movie Black Hawk Down? BH: Yes. RO: Well, when they run that last mile from the city to where the Pakistanis were, that called the “ Moga mile” (Mogadishu mile). So I like that movie a lot. But a movie about Vietnam that I like and I've read the book as well, was "we were soldiers once" talking about the war. And the movie focuses on the first half the book, which was a success story, the second half of the book talks about an ambush of another unit. BH: Leave it to Hollywood to make a feel good movie. RO: I am a veracious reader. One book I just finished, I just read it on my Kindle. And I liked it so much that I wanted a hard copy. So this is Stonewall Jackson and the American Civil War by a British Colonel that was written around 1900. I liked it so much that I just had to get a hard copy so that I can bookmark it and bring to class and show my students. Stonewall Jackson is just an unbelievable. He was mortally wounded in 11 �Chancellorsville. Because if he had lived there, then the south might have won. And even though I pride my southern tradition. It would not have been a good thing if the south had avoided defeat in the Civil War. BH: My last question…how did the military service affect your life. Was it for the good or the bad? RO: Well the Jury is probably still out (laughter) I'm proud of my military service; it gave me the chance to travel a lot. My wife and I have spent many years overseas. Germany, Vietnam, Australia I was the school of artillery instructor in Sydney. In Asia, I served in several different tours. Spent three and a half years in Bangladesh, four and a half years in India on different tours. When I wasn’t doing artillery jobs, I worked as a defense attaché in our embassy in Dacca Bangladesh as the lieutenant colonel and New Deli as a full colonel. Being in the military definitely gave me the ability to see a lot of the world. The army also sent me to graduate school at the University of Georgia. I got my masters in Soviet Studies and Geography. BH: Is there anything you would like to add that we didn't cover today? RO: No. I appreciate you coming and I enjoyed you coming and getting to know you and getting to see Laura again. BH: Well, I appreciate getting to know you. RO: God bless. 12 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/636681b4f2ff57d993f734fc77717b16.mp3 09a9f8ad8cb70dfa4dab21c7521ddeb0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Olson, Russell Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hedgepath, Ben Interview Date 10/15/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:43 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Oakland, California, Vietnam, Army, officer, field artillery, Citadel, Germany, Fort Drum, India, Special Forces, Fort Bragg, adviser in Vietnam, Montagnards, Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base, Saigon, Vietcong, Bronze Star, Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry, Vietnamese Service Medal, Vietnamese Campaign Medal Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Russell Olson, 15 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Olson, Russell, 1947 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Russell Olson Jr., born August 3, 1947, served as a field artillery officer in the U.S. Army for 30 years, including service in Vietnam. In this interview he discusses the draft for the Vietnam war and his personal experience, including living with the Montagnards in the highlands of Vietnam. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Olson, Russell Hedgepath, Ben Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English colonel Field Artillery Officer Russell V. Olson Jr. Saigon US Army Vietnameseization https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2b041b934c34a4a88cfba4daad4f05dc.pdf f5d36f3d3e5497a43caebfff47eba299 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Conley Call North Wilkesboro, North Carolina 14 October 2011 MC: Matt Call CC: Conley Call MC: Today is October 14, 2011. I am at the home of Conley Call in North Wilkesboro, North Carolina. Conley Call is my grandfather and I will be interviewing him today. What is your date of birth? CC: August 29th, 1931 MC: What war or branch of service were you in? CC: I was in the Army National Guard during the Korean War. MC: What was your rank? CC: I enlisted as a recruit and later after four years got a commission and retired as a colonel. MC: Okay, where were you living at the time you enlisted? CC: I was living here on Fair Plains Road. MC: Right where we are now, pretty much. What made you want to join? CC: Well I was just finishing up my sophomore in high school, I was 17 years old and several of us were talking about it and I had to get my parents to sign because I wasn't 18 until later that year. And there were things appearing in the newspaper and the Russians had up the iron curtain or the wall and you could just see that maybe war was going to come. So quite a few of my high school, I'd say half a dozen, we enlisted in the National Guard, some of them went on and as soon as they graduated high school went into the Air Force or the U.S Army. But I was in the guard, there wasn't any draft, and they had just started a few months after I enlisted but I knew at 17, I was going to have to go and just in the prime status, and good health, so I went ahead and joined and started training. MC: Why did you decide to join the National Guard rather than any other service? CC: Well, I didn't like the army or the military as a career. I wanted to get married later and I liked the citizen soldier concept the best, where we spend most of our time in our civilian lives doing whatever and go to war, and that's the way America has always fought their wars. 1 �MC: We've learned a lot about citizen soldier warfare. Do you recall your first when you joined? CC: Yes, I can. I had a sergeant named Looney White, who had been in World War One, and was still in the guard. We were assigned to him immediately to learn to wear our uniform, and we had to have our uniform altered to make it fit us, for a small person. I weighed about 110 pounds. We also started to do dismounted drill as our first thing. They started teaching and went to recruit later that year but it was different but you knew some of the guys in the unit. Quite a few of them had been in World War Two and a few of them had been in World War One and we had some good NCOs (non-commissioned officers) and officers who had experience so that was my philosophy in doing that. I could go on to school or get married or whatever and still stay in the guard and pull my military. MC: How old were you when you joined? CC: Seventeen. MC: Seventeen. CC: I would have been 18. I joined in May. 2 May, '49. And I was 18 years old on 29 of August that year. So I had to get my parents to sign my papers to allow me to join. MC: Were you excited? CC: Well kind of, it was different and we always drilled one night a week and then we had weekend drills and campouts and so forth, but you met some new people, some different people and I took it very serious that some of these veterans of World War One and World War Two could tell you about what it was like and so it was a learning experience and I went there to learn and do the very best I could. They started up the draft shortly there after, I don’t remember exactly. I was classified 1D, that means I was 1A physically, but I was in the reserve or National Guard. By the way you had to be in both. You had to be trained in that day or time as if you were on active duty so you had to go on and fulfill your MOS, Military Occupation Specialty. The unit was an artillery unit and I learned the enlisted side of the artillery the 105 Howitzer Toad, and they shoot about 13,000 meters and that's a pretty good distance but you had to be very accurate and so they amend, but that was later for me, I didn’t start out doing. I started doing menial things like TP and guard duty and you know, things like that. They don’t start training you on your specialty. MC: Did you ever go overseas? CC: No MC: You didn't? 2 �CC: I went overseas later to visit Guard units. I went once to Ecuador and I went once to Germany and Czechoslovakia to visit Guard units but that was way later when I was in another capacity but I didn’t fight in any war. MC: Can you tell me some of your most memorable experiences in the National Guard? CC: Well, in 1951, we were having a summer camp in Fort Braxton, North Carolina. Summer camps were about two or three weeks and I was selected the most outstanding soldier of the year for the battalion. It was the fact that I was on a howitzer, the number two man. When the howitzer fired you immediately looked in the tube of the howitzer to see if that shell had gone out and you would say, "Number two has fired, sir!” and I had on aphesis type gloves because the brass that come out of there had a...that didn't go out, and they were hot and just the way I carried out my job, I was singled out and got accommodations. Then later that year, I want to say, probably June of 1952, this was in May, I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina on active duty with regular soldier and went to infantry leadership school and they were basically training us to be MCOs and to go to Korea. They were short of a lot of leadership and of course I graduated number fourth or fifth, I think fourth. And that was to teach us how to be…they taught us dismounted drills, methods of instruction, how to teach classes, and how to lead people, and I really enjoyed that and much of the active duty while I was there. My uncle, Jay Call, Gracie's first husband was drafted in service, and several people I knew, and I sort of helped them out a little bit because I was already there and showed them the ropes a little bit. Then I took a extension course from Fort Riley, Kansas, called a ten series, and it was sort of basic military, and I took it by mail, and when I finished and finished the leadership school and then finished local training that they put us through, the officers interviewed me and recommended me for commission. I had been in the guard almost four years at that time and that was October of 1953, and I was commissioned as second lieutenant by an act of Congress. Federally you had to be qualified to be a second lieutenant in the active military, not just in the National Guard and that meant I had to go to prepare myself for an officer's MOS, Military Occupational Specialty. So I went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and probably January of 1954 and returned to my home station after about seven months after about seven months in July of 1954 and I really enjoyed that. It’s a lot of trigonometry and you had to work at every position in the military and the artillery. Fort Sill, Oklahoma was the artillery guided missile school of the world, and there were 28 nations represented there. I met a lot of Korean officers that we had sent from Korea to school, and I was elected class leader of '88. Lieutenant and one captain, and for the whole six months, and I moved my wife and two children out after about a month and they came and lived with us in Oklahoma. Oklahoma was kind of different, geographically and all and it dust storms out there, but I enjoyed it very much, and thoroughly enjoyed the education I got. I worked a little as a boy in survey with an engineer here in the community named Sam Mitchell. And so in the artillery you did a lot of survey. You had to know where your piece is and then you had to know how far it can shoot and control a lot of that or you will get friendly fire. You are always behind the infantry. 3 �And I thoroughly enjoyed that. As soon as I came home I was made safety officer for our entire battalion, now we had other officers that had trained in World War Two and some had been distilled before me but they always used the latest graduate, the one that up to date in the latest rules and everything and I stayed safety officer for a year or two, and then as would happen, the army goes through reorganization and you had two to three times the Army. You have the regular army, so many standing soldiers, and then you have the Army Reserve, and then you have the National Guard. And altogether that makes your defense force and in this particular war we're having in war and over in there we use more National Guard by far then we have regular troops that's called up unit after unit. The unit here that I used to command has been over there three or four times. I mean the army was cut back and was so small it has to use its reserves. MC: Did you spend your time when you were enlisted as just National Guard or did you have another career also the same time? CC: Yes, I had started in 1946 working part time at a local furniture company. MC: American Drew? CC: It was just American Furniture at that time, there wasn't any Drew. And then later it became American Drew. We bought a burnt down furniture factory and started Drew furniture and then they later merged together. And I was in a management training program there and in fact, the National Guard and ready men helped me to advance and improve myself in my civilian job. I also had a part time job as a fireman that I started in 1946, which I rose to chief, and that helped me and anytime you can learn and learn how to manage people, but I really had a wonderful time at the furniture, in the furniture business, and I rose and retired as, after 53 years, with a lot of experience and I was senior vice president of distribution and purchasing and at times as we were buying companies. I was even head of the company for a while. MC: Did you meet any long time friends while you were in? CC: Yes, I met friends in the National Guard that I know until this day. I'm 80 years old and they just become someone you can trust and someone that can trust you and you started out sleeping in a puck tent and living close together and you learn to make friends pretty quick who you can trust and then that goes right along in the commission officer's rank. You're doing a little bit different but I had a retired SCI, retired highway patrol men, which had been in World War Two and a lot of friends that I still know today. I still like to know and in fact, one of those men that I sent to Fort Benton and commissioned during that time later joined Special Forces and went to Vietnam. He came back to visit a year or so ago he was traveling across the United States on a motorcycle. In fact, he sent us an email to your home, where he was traveling; he always travelled across the United States and Canada just visiting friends he had met in the military. He sent me a travel log of that, and I enjoyed that. But while he was in Vietnam he sent me a postcard and this happened to be 1969, he was in Vietnam and I was of course in the Guard as a 4 �civilian but doing my duty as required and he sent me a postcard or Christmas card and it showed his hut and his Vietnam counterpart. He told me on this card, he had taken over 1000 rounds over the last 24 hours, but he had saw my name in the Army Times, I had just been promoted to major and all military promotions go to the Army Times, or did. I'm not sure they do today or not. But he'd read where I was promoted to major, and at the time he was a lieutenant and he said, "Congratulations, I wish you were here to give me some advice." I had been his commanding officer for two or three years and it's someone you just don’t forget. In the ‘60s when I commanded the local guard unit and then in the late ‘60s commanded the battalion for a short time, headquartered in Hickory. You meet a lot of younger people, just out of college or in college, just out of high school, and the type of training give them or don’t give them has a lot of difference whether or not they survive, if they go into battle and how to take care of themselves. During the ‘60s I also taught at Fort Bragg two summers and one winter in OCS. They had OCS at Fort Bragg, officer candidate school. I was taught weapons down there and then in the earlier days I was a drill instructor at Fort McClellan, Alabama for a about a couple of summers down there. And I enjoyed that. Don't know that you ever knew a local man in the school system here, named Jack Brame, coach Brame. MC: I don't think I did. CC: Well, he spent many years at Wilkes Central. And he just in the last few years, he lost a leg to diabetes. But he's a retired schoolteacher. Well, when I was training on active duty he was my instructor. But Jack Brame had gone to Davidson on a football scholarship at Davidson College and then went on in the army and he was my instructor. He left after he pulled his two years, he went to Appalachian and was assistant coach up there working on his masters. And of course, I moved up, got a commission and the next time I meet him he is one of my lieutenants and we have been best friends throughout the years and I had several school teachers or former school teachers that I was involved in and one of them was assistant postmaster who's living today, he's 90, Bill Thomas. He's been a pilot over the years in World War Two. I was ten years old when World War Two broke out and of course I was 18 years old when the Korean War broke out, June 25, 1950. I was not old enough until they I was almost too old because they didn't start drafting until almost that time. Quite an experience later after I got out of the guard after 23 years and went to the Army Reserve and I was with a unit called the 87th Mover Command and it was a reserve unit. At that time they had pulled now in Alabama, where they conduct all the war games between the active and the reserve and I got to go up to Germany and all over South America, I went to nearly every country in South America. And then the last thing I did of any consequence, I can't tell you the year, but we had this general down in Panama called General Noriega and he was really big in drugs and all the things and leading Panama the wrong way and we were interested in invading Panama and we did. But they got a group of us reserve officers and a few active officers and we went to South America, Central America, and visited every country and it was a secret mission at the time, but our main object was to find out what the people would think when America invaded Panama to 5 �check for Noriega. You know countries don't like you to be in their country regardless of whether you're helping or not and we get criticized for that as America but if we hadn't done it there'd be a tremendous amount of countries who wouldn't be free today. MC: So you could say your overall experience with the National Guard was a good one? CC: Absolutely, I recommended it to quite a few people and the opportunity to go to a school, the opportunity to grow managing people, leading people, whether it enhances, I said my ability to run a fire department or to run departments in a furniture company, all that training that you received to work one place or work another. It was just an outstanding and I look back on it with great anticipation and particularly the friends you made, all the way up to the governor or this sort of thing. The governor of the state commissioned you in the National Guard, but Congress commissioned you into the reserves. You had to have a double commission. You had to have the specs and qualification as if you were in the regular army by a certain time they give you to earn your training, but it enriched my life and I contributed something to the communities in which we live. We did a lot of things in service in the community. During the ‘60s there was a lot of unrest in Winston-Salem and Greensboro. Riots, they had riots and my battalion was called on active duty to go for two or three weeks at a time and go help quell those riots and quell the unrest, where the shootings and breaking in stores and what have you. Particularly one of those times was when Dr. King was killed. Seemed like that was around 1968 but I'm not sure exactly the day of his death. There was a lot of unrest because of that and we went to Greensboro and stayed about a week in the coliseum there while the GGO (Greater Greensboro Open) was going on and called out by the governor. The governor can call the National Guard and use them any way he sees or she sees. We have a lady governor now, she sees to protect the citizens and help out in hurricanes and all of that. So the guard does a lot of work. Now they also can be called by the president to go and fight a war, and they are, I feel like a little more serviceable by helping the state and the nation by being in the Army Reserve or National Guard that way then you would be if you were just in the regular army. MC: Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the military in general? CC: Yes, first, war is hell. It’s terrible. And I don't know anybody that wants war. Now the citizen soldier concept is what America has always had until this period of time we have the largest standing order army we've had in a long time. But I don't like doing away with the draft and I learned this in the National Guard by getting filler troops in that had been drafted and some had not. Here's what you have in the army today. You have people who in most cases are in the lower bracket in the ability and training because the well to do trained person that's going graduate from college and go on to better themselves, they're not going to take four years out to serve in the army and they're not going to volunteer. So when you did away with the draft, the draft supposedly called all of us to go serve for a certain length of time and when you did away with the draft it lowered. We've got a very high quality army today but some of that is because we've had recessions and that's where people can 6 �get a job. There's a lot of political sides too it, I kind of like the concept that Switzerland has always had, and they've never been in a war. In Switzerland they used to go into the military and stay about a year and then you go home and take your military equipment home with you, your weapon and so forth and then you're on call until you age out. MC: Okay CC: And they've stayed neutral all of these years that I've been involved in a war. If I had lost a leg or the other, and I was using a wooden leg or something, I think I’d still go in the military. Because we have the concept of womanhood today, I think they ought to serve to. And the more you learn about, as I know it, in World War Two, the United States had to go to war. We had any choice. Somebody jumped on us. In World War Two, we know about Pearl Harbor and we know we had to go to war. I mean it wasn't any question. We'd be taken over by the Japanese and the Germans and so forth. Now other than that, we should’ve not have been in Vietnam, and probably, I'm not going say this as emphatically, we shouldn't have been in Korea but definitely not in Vietnam and we shouldn't be in Iraq or any of these places now. MC: We spend so much money. CC: Well, it’s the money and the young lives you're wasting and all. And, only by having some experience of your own can you really know what you're talking about to say no. MC: Yes. CC: During the Korean war and the Vietnam War, people went to Canada and got away from the war and didn't go and I'd rather they stay here and fight the system then run away from the system MC: Yes. CC: Definitely, you take anybody who's had any experience in the military knows that most of the time it's been industrial complex or the political context is why we go to war, its because they jumped on us. And the French fought in Vietnam for 40-50 years, never won, and other nations before them. Wars have been going on there since the countries were born. And we didn't win and they're now fairly merged together again as a country. But we're buying allot of cars and a lot of military stuff from Korea and Vietnam that we used to blow up. MC: Yes. CC: War is Hell. And I don't know of anybody that really, that knows what they're talking about that really believes in war. Now if somebody jumps on us like Pearl Harbor or something you've got of protect yourself and that sort of thing, but we hadn't had that since I was ten years old. Most of these things are political. MC: Well I think that's all the questions I have for you. Is there anything you'd like to add for this interview? 7 �CC: I appreciate you asking me to make a few comments. I have thoroughly enjoyed the service in the community and in the nation, and years that I've done. I've made a lot of friends and I've learned enough to be a good citizen, about war, I think. And know by having had some training you can read the newspaper or watch television and you know a little bit about what’s going on and can make a decision in voting. Its very important that we spend some time studying our government and war is a big part of what we're spending our dollars, and so we sure ought to. The eight years that President Bush was in there, and the two years that President Obama has been in, they don’t put any of that war expenses in the budget. They're using millions on adhoc things and it’s bigger than the budget. Our civilians haven't managed it well in most cases, so wasteful. Wasteful, even if you need so much, so many men and so much service, they still waste an awful lot because so much is thrown at it. Of course we waste some everywhere else too, but I appreciate you asking me to make some comments. MC: Thank you very much for speaking with me today. CC: Yes, glad to do it. MC: Like I said at the beginning of the interview, this is October 14 2011 and this is Conley Call of North Wilkesboro. My name is Matthew Call and this interview is for American Military History at Appalachian State University. CC: Thank you. 8 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1998a41ebc7df5349a35c295d5304ac8.mp3 c66cdb32460e8fbeb09edd3b3bd22c8c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Call, Conley Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Call, Matt Interview Date 10/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:12 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag North Wilkesboro, Wilkes County, Army National Guard, Korean War, Ecuador, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Fort Braxton, Fort Jackson, Fort Sill, American Furniture Company, Army Times, Fort Bragg Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Conley Call, 14 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 Call, Conley Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Korean War Conley Call, Army National Guard, was born August 29, 1931. He discusses his reasons for joining the military as well as several personal anecdotes during training. He also discusses how his military experience influenced his thoughts on war. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Call, Conley Call, Matt Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 8 pages Language A language of the resource English Army National Guard citizen soldier warfare colonel Conley Call Fort Braxton iron curtain Korean War