1 50 2 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7bfe768740570b7362804ca24404718f.pdf 049b349af65133fac2a31f7e2871a6d8 PDF Text Text An interview wi t h Robert Proffit by Joseph Skelton and Deloris Proffit, on October 3, 1980. The interview was conducted at his home. Mr. Proffit: John Green was probably the first person entering the land we know as Meat Camp now. This entry was in 1788 and the orginial deeds which started at the mouth of Howard ~ s c reek to the New river and it comes up to the lower end of Meat Camp. The line runs through below where Earl Green lives now, goes pretty well east and wes t across there. And the Ragan property joined that. I don ~ t have an} P·IIOO f he re r- on l the "first one, just ex actly where he lived. I don ~ t think Gre en lived in Meat Camp valley He lived back on the other side where Forrest (G r een) lives in that hollow. But still the property comes in Heat CAmp. Then the Ragan land begin with that line and it run thr~ ugh the upper end of the Wilson property where Darrell Green owns now, and across on each side. And it will cover the area you are interested in probably alot more. Now Peter Ragan lived there somewhere, on the land that he entered in the 1780's 90 ~ s. He had a son named James who inherited all of it as far as I know. I don~t have the re cords on it, It wa s probably entered but it is certain he lived in the country at least before 1790 and its certain that James Ragan owned the property. Now from there on the greater partc of the rest of Meat Camp was entered by David Miller. There',s tracts here and there that he missed for sorfie reason. It mifht have been one or two entries that he didn ! t have, I mean that someone else had got in--while he was entering it. And do you want to take in the flat woods and Longhope on this? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Pro f fit: Well it was up-- James Brown, I think, a Brown anyway entered the flat woods that was in the 1780 ~ s. Henry Harrison ?fains lived on LOng hope, he moved there in 1788. And xcept for that I th i nk David Miller owned practically all the rest of Meat Camp. He entered it in the period a little after 1800 to maybe 1830 or so. And some of it may have been entered in his children ~ s names. They inherited all of it, or all of it he didn ~ t s e ll. Now let !s see you can f lip that off a minute i f you want t o . Now the Ragan ~ s f amily-- I guess Ralph still owns part of that place over there where Bud lives. Floyd Norris if he hadn , t sold it owns a patch in there. His mother was one of them. The rest of it has all been. sold. It reached from well at least from the top of Chestnut Grove hill to Riddle's fork. David Miller owned land on Riddle's fork too. He had one of the fir s t entries ever made but it was over at Green Va lley school house- That's Just about where his house was. He owned from there way back over on the big Hill side that was entered by h~ s daddv . And after he married he started enteru.3 on the creek here. I'll get this burned down a little and we'll go on but before we turn it on (in reference to his pipe). I can give you a list of several people that I've found that lived here. And I don't know that I've got them all. Do you want a description of who lived there at this time on the place and things like that now will that help ~ you? �2 Interviewer: Yes, it sure will. Mr. Proffit: Now Joseph Miller was one of the earliest settlers above the Greens and Ragans. He settled on this place here about 1834 I'd say. He was married in 1834 and probably lived here then. And his land went from I couldn't tell you exactly, but it took in over the top of this ridge over here and over nearly to Riddle's Fork and it went up the creek to about where Will Winebar?er lived or a little above there. And the next one William C. Miller moved to Upper Meat Camp about 1835. He wasn't related to these. His land joined the land Henry Proffit owns now and Flo Proffit owns. It went up somewhere near the Pottertown Gap on the right and went back down toward Zionville on the other side. And he bougnt some of it from David Miller and I think he entered some. And his house was where Lark's family lives now. Levi Wilson lived on the other side of the creek where Gladys Moretz lives. He owned a lot more land than sne owns but his house was somewhere in that bottom, and he lived there from maybe 1835-40 on to the late 50's, he moved to that section in 1839 or 40. He moved into the country in 39 he may of moved there directly or he could ~ have lived somewhere else awhile but he was there probably by 1840, that's the place they call the Tate place now. Tom Davis moved from Holdman's Ford in Wilkes County to what they call the Davis place now. Jack Bryan owns it. You know where it is it's up over the Ridge. And Joha Proffit moved from Holdman's Ford in 1841. He built just out to the right of where Henry Winebarger lives. lie had a mill down on the creek just below Proffit's Grove church. I Can remember when you could see the timbers where the water wheel ~as mounted. Teey are gone no · but --they was logs in the creek back 40 years ago. And this was evidently land that David Miller1 ·m~ssed. The Proffit boys entered it I think. And then David Miller moved from Riddle's Fork up on Meat Camp about 1844. !le lived in an old house do~m just in front of where Roby Wineba~ger lives in that bottom. Jake Winebarger settled here in about 1848. He built his first house just behind where Earl Bryan's house is in that little bottom. Then latter on he built down where Harvey Trivette's house is. You can't remember the old house can yo81 It was a log house. Interviewer: No Mr. Proffit: Well Harvey tore it down and built that house thats there now on the same spot. And he built it in the late 1860's. Now this Winebarger was a millwright, Carpenter, and cabinet maker; he built yha~ orginal mill for John Proffit up on b~e creek before th was married. And he built the Winebarger milJ l Rt t er on. Of course the orginal has been gone a long time this is, , I think, ~ the fourth mill now. And Levi Blackburn moved from down on New river to Meat Camp in 1839. He bought land from Joseph Miller there and he lived on up the hollar above where Richard Greens family lives. He owned that place too. Now he was a Methodist minister and he started the Hopewell church about 1850. The orginial building stood just below the old cemetary down on a little knoll. Latter on they built another one just to the right of the old cemetary above where the road is now. Around 1900 they built the new building over on top of the ridge, where it is, of course its been remodelled and its been moved a little. It blowed off the pillars in 1905 and they had to do something so they pulled it on up on top of the ridge, it was down �3 on this side a little. And they turned it around to face Riddle's Fork. And there was a man named William Tridy that lived on the upper end of the creek on 1850 . He was listed in the 1850 census. He evidently wasn't there so long . There's a place still called the Tridy cabin field, I think Carl Moretz ' s family o~'lls it now, Some of the Moretz ' s. Corning back down Jerry Ellison moved in th the iandr that Clyde Winebarger and Herman Bryan owns now and that was in the 1840's. He married one of the David Miller daughters. This was iand that she recieved as her inheritance from the orginial Miller entries. Efird Miller was one of David ' s sons . He lived on the place that _' Bernard Hodgeson owns now. The Dayton Winebarger place was part of it to. And he probably moved there in the 1840 ' s. He married one of John Woodring ' s daughters and she died and then he didn't marry again up until 1850's. But, I imagine, he probably built there when he first married. John Woodring settled on what we call the Woodring Hollar somewhere in that section about 1839-or-40. Jesse Vannoy moved here from Wilkes in 1850. He owned the place now where Dayton Winebarger lives where Willy Proffit lived. Cristian Lewis married another one of the Miller girls . He moved to this over here where R. 0. Mains owns and the Claude Norris family and probably more but anyhow it covered that . I'm not certain where there was any other outside settlers before that time or not there could have been of course . Now after 1850 most of the new homes in M eQt Camp was set. up by families; children that was r raised here. James Ragan had three sons. John built his house a little , above where Bud:s house is now . Up in that hollar. Calvin built down on the place where Earl Green owns--no I'm wrong there - J . B. Green owns . He built a house just down below where J. B. ' s house is . And Richard built over here where Austin South lives the old house was down in that little hollar just the other side of Austin's house. And on the head of the creek William Proffit built on the land where Claude lived . His house was just above where Claude's barn is out on that little fidge. John Bryan built up in the hollar where Herman lives. Oan Johnson bought the place and lived in the s ame ~ house that John built for years and then he tore it down. Jonathan Miller moved out :Ln the place where Roy Shipley lives now. The house was, I think, a h below or maybe behind the Shipley house. And he may have owned the Todd place too, I don ' t know for certain about that . James Proffit built about where Ralph Moretz's house is now maybe a little below it . John Proffit Jr . built over on t he other side abo ut where Jack Bryan ' s barn is. Austin Miller built pretty close to where Ann Miller's house is or Albert's . John Moretz built on up where Gene lived . And Edmund Blackburn built over across the hill here in this hollar, I don ' t know what it ' s called. But anyhow it was on land that Henry Proffit owned its beens9ld to some bunch of developers now. But it was between the top of the ridge up here and where Richard Green lived . Hopewell Methodist church seemed to have been the first one on this Meat Camp section. It was determined 1850. Levi Blackburn moved in 1839 and they probably had serv~ c es in homes for awh i le but as far as I know they didn ' t organize a church until about 1850 possi~ly a little before of after . I ·-believe I already described where the church stood. The next one was the Meat Camp church. It was established July 6, 1851. And it was a pretty strong congregat ~ on, not so strong when it was set up but it was a fast growing congregation . The orginial meeting house there stood in the little bottom down below where the church house is now . It belongs to Gladys Gragg's . �4 Between 194 and the old cemetary. And I don't know just when the new house was built but probably 40 to 50 years af ter that . And that ' s the only churches I know of on Meat Camp before the Civil war . What I've heard told of, I've a book on Stoneman's raid and ed on Meat CAmp at the time. you would just be things that Interviewer: got a little . The Van Noppen waman she wrote there was a few references to things that happenBut I Can't seperate that. What I can tell I've heard people tell. Well. Mr. Proffit: Well in the war then first calls evidently was for volinteers they had a conscription too. But they was people volinteered that wouldn't have been conscripted, to old or physically probably wouldn ' t have passed . And theymay habe been some I don ' t have. I know some that would have been consideres, Possibly from Meat Camp, But still they are outside a little of the scope that we are covering here. I ' ll give you the names of the people I've found that went into the confedrency service from Meat Camp proper. That was John Blackburn, John Bryan, Elbert Davis, Albert D~vis, Harvey Davis, Thomas Davis Jr., William S. Davis, Richard Green, Alferd Miller, David Miller, Edmund Miller, Elferd Miller, Franklin Miller, John Miller, LOzeno Miller, John Moretz, David Proffit, Jesse Proffit, Thomas Proffit William Proffit, Marcus Woodring, Rufus Woodring, Now out of these Thomas Davis Jr . , Richard Green, David Miller, Edmund Miller, John Miller, David Proffit, Jesse Proffit, and Thomas Proffit all died in the service . There was a time went the war was going on there was raids through the country mostly by outlaws. Stoneman's raid was the only one I know of that was offical. But at times there was bands that would come through and rob the people and go on. There ' s one story of some that went to Jacob Winebarger's and took his horse. They went to William Miller ' s and swapped with him . Left an old pug that looked like it was dead on it's feet . After the war and the horse was feed up it turned out to be a good animal. And I ' ve heard them tell my great-grandmother lived at the Shipley place, it was the Jon a th an Miller place then, he was her uncle . Ane she brought some corn over to tne m il ~l that John Proffit had on the creek and wheb she started back to get her mill she noticed some people coming through the gap of the mountain on horses and she tried to get to the mill before they did, but she'd .; ust got her mill and started back when thay rode up and they took the mill hwa¥ I ~rom her. It was the last she had, and she had to go ovee to Trade over in tenn . to get some more . And another time they had some maple sugarburied . They'd made it and got afraid someone would come in and take it so they buried it in the woods . It started raining and after a few days of fain they got afraid that would ruin it, and went and took it up and that night a bunch come and took it away from them . They was other < <r· things. Out of all this bunch of soldiers Elfird Miller deserted. He ' s the only one I know of. He got back home and layed out in the mountains till the war was over. 1 Interviewer: Is that--- Were roost of the men you mentioned were they confederate? Mr. Proffit: All confederate . �5 Interviewer: soldiers? ..'Were most of the rad.eds that went on here donel by the northern Mr. Proffit : Well I suspect mostly it was just what you might call the trash of the country . Deserters and people who layed out to keep from having to serve and maybe it could have been some sympathers with the northern cause. Interviewer: Yeah . I know I was just wandering because of how bad some of the raids where by northern soldiers further down south. I didn't know i f maybe it might have been some of them . Mr . Proffit: Now they was a trail through in the Tenn. Beach creeR c0.yntry . That was used quite a bit for people who deserted and wanted to get to the north . And they may have been some gone through1here . Over the Rich mountain gap, but from what I've heard I think most of the raiding through here was just you might say a bunch of outlaws. People who had found a way to live off the other people. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Proffit: in that. I don't think they was any organized connection with the north There was a school that stood down in this bottom that belongs to Darrell Green now. Of course it was just a conscription school. The people who had children to send payed so much for the course. Interviewer : Uh-huh . Did they pay the teacher? Is that how they did it? Mr . Proffit : I think so, yeah. There wasn ' t any school board's anything like that. Just somebody that was capable of teaching would go through the community and get parents to agree to pay. Maybe a dollar or so a student. Interviewer: something? Un-huh. Did he work kinda like a circuit rider preacher of Mr . Proffit: I don ' t know how that was. Wehad a few people in the country that was qualified as school teachers. I can remember hearing that my greatgrandmother said all she got to go to school was when she would slip off and go down to this school. Her daddy wouldn ' t let her go . He wouldn't pay for the course. As far as I know that was the only school within reach of this section until after --till after the war. pause . in tape. l r. -'- t1:, . Mr . Proffit: He:.;wa·s ' brought r b~ John Moretz. He bought the Cooper place down on the other side of Big Hill . It included part of Big Hill . He put in a set of mills there several different kinds of mills and brought Jacob Winebarger with him to keep up the mill, sharpen his stones and all of that. Interviewer: Un-huh . �6 Mr. Proffit: Then Winebarger married one of his girls and moved over here on Meat Camp. Interviewer: Un-huh. Did they have any stores or anything? Mr. Proffit: Not back at that time. Gargan Council had a store at Boone. That was-- I think he started maybe in the 1820's. He had the first post office in the country too. Interviewer: Un-huh. People were just what more self sufficient than they needed a store for I guess? Mr. Proffit: Yeah. All Council could have sold was just mostly stuff they couldn't raise here. After a while of course they probably got to bringing in more stuff like it has been ever since. But orginally I think it was jist finery mostly and maybe salt and stuff like that. The only store I know of that was anywhere close here was down --was down on Big Hill and that was after the civil war throgh . You've probably heard it called Soda Hill. - l· Do you remember hearing that? P Interviewer: I can't think, I don't know. Mr. Proffit: I can remember when they still called it Soda Hill but its called Big Hill now. But they said the reason they called it that was cause the i· first soda that was ever sold in this country was brought there. .) Uh-Is that drinking soda or baking soda? No baking soda. Interviewer: / Interviewer: Mr. Proffit: 5 They still don't call drinks soda here. Intervierer: Yeah. I guess that's just where where I'm from. 0 Interviewer: / ,) Irterviewer: Yeah. They call them soda. Mr. Proffit: Now what do we need after the civil war? just the same kind of thing? What particular Interviewer: Yeah, What kind of schools, churches, were there---Did the area change a whole lot after the civil war-- were there a lot of changes that happened in here? Mr. Proffit: Not that I know of on Meat Camp. There might have been some Cilffeqmce pt6bablj would· .have been but the way of life all that was the same on. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Proffit: There never was anything here to begin with except just the natural things and--- <• �7 Interviewer: Well that's enough. Mr. Proffit: There was no business of ever carried on here . And there's not that unless you have improvements . Of you could pull by tracters things like was very little change in general. ~~ any kind, farming was all that was room for a great amount of change in course after they begin making machinery that has changed . But I guess there ~ cl' ' ..,::' Interviewer: Part of it or something? Yeah . Mr . Proffit: It's actually been a part of five counties in its history but from the time it was settled in here. Wilkes county was formed in 1778 . I think and it included this. This was all Wilkes county then on some says to Mississippi others claim it didn't go that far, but anyway it took in a great part of Tenn . And I don't know I may have given you that date wrong did I say 1778? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Proffit : Well that's what I meant anyway . Interviewer : 0 . K. Mr. The and was but Proffit: In 1799, Ashe county was formed and it included all this. line·-went t not , to far from where it is now between Wilkes county, AShe Watauga and partof Mitchell was together at that time all of Avery county in Ashe county. No that ' s wrong part of Avery was formed with Mitchell, a good part of it was Watauga territory and Watauga was formed in 1849. Interviewer: Now Watauga was formed out of thos five counties? Mr. Proffit: No part of that was took off Watauga . Avery county was in Watauga county until 1911. The line between Ashe and Watauga is close to where it was orginially. There's been a few changes to straighten places. And there ' s been other changes, no point in going into it, a little along . The v Caldwell line and so on . But tis section in here sll that's in Watauga now was in Ashe until 1849 that's from 1799 on . Now from there was three years that David Miller represented Watauga county of course he didn't live in Meat CAmp then he lived on Big Hill. But he owned most of Meat Camp he was representive in 18-- I think 1810, 11 and 13 . He skipped one year . It was one year terms then. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mr. Proffit: And as far as I know he was the only politican that we could clairp, Yeah, I was right 1810, 11, and 13. ~'::. -10 Mr . Proffit : I may not have anything down on the others and their homes latter if I don't we can put it together. You've turned that thing off . END OF SIDE ONE . �8 Interviewer: Road, about the same as it was then? Mr . Proffit Yeah, in places the old road bed shows a good it of the way it was , over in the bootom a little out here . You may have noticed this low place in the bottom . And up through there I don't know just about where it left up about Bernard Hodgeson ' s I guess it took up around the spur and went up around the hill instead of going up the creek. Expept for that it's pretty well the same. Now down below here it crossed it about 8 or 10 times . But outside of that well it ' s still about the same instead of going straight it went the easiest way I reckon. Interviewer : What about briages? They just went through the creek? Mr. Proffit : Yeah, had a footlog for walkers--drive horses through the creek . Interviewer : Did they~I know they did in a lot of the rest of the country . Did they get --have people volunteer when they started putting--really cuttin the roads out alot, putting the tops on them. Did they have people volunteer to do that in this area . Mr. Proffit: That was appointed. I don't know wheather local, probably was a state law that a man over 21 years had to serve so many days a year in road work. When they wanted to patch or repair it, they just had an owerseer that notified the people to meet at a certain time . I think it was three days that every man had to give in a year. He could hire somebody if he wanted to, but somebody had to work in his name. Interviewer: Uh- huh. Was that ever really inconvient for the people here? Mr . Proffit : I don ' t know of course at that time everybody just worked at home I guess it wouldn't have made the difference it woild now. After people got on jobs of course it would be inconvient, but when you ' re just working the farm I don't imagine it bothered to much . Interviewer: I was thinking like as times when they might be harvesting and digging up their crops, that i it might be inconvient for them. Mr. Proffit: as possible . Well, I imagine that was arranged probably to avoid that as much Interviewer: Un-huh . Mr . Proffit: Now on the other things-the work- I mean in the community we had several people that could do several different kinds of work, blacksmiths, and cabin makers, and shoe makers and all that. Practically everything was made in the community. Interviewer: When people needed something like that or if they wanted a cabinet made and they went to the cabinet maker did they--I imagine they didn't always pay them with money . They might have changed services or bartered with them ~.· �9 most of the time. Mr. Proffit: Yeah, that was common if a man didn't have money to pay he might have something he could swop for it or work a day or something. Interviewer: I'd kinda like to do that myself. Mr. Proffit: And it didn't run to much. It might have cost you maybe a dollar to have a bed made or--of course that was still alot then waking for about a quarter a day. Interviewer: Let's see- as far as the schools what was the first public school that they had in this area. Mr. Proffit: I guess Winebarger, no I don't know wheather it was called Winebarger then or not. There was an old school that stood where Proffit's Grove church is now on the same spot, but I don't think, yeah it probably was a public school too. I mean open to anybody and it was probably built not to long after the war. After the building got old they condemned that bottom above where Wilcox lives and built a school house in it. That was the Winebarger school there. And I think that's all the schools that's been on Meat Camp. Three's all I know of. Interviewer: Did people usually donate their land and the building materials in order to get a school. Mr. Proffit: They did on the first. Now I dbn't know about the second school. I don't have any information on it at all. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mr. Proffit: They condemned the land for the Winebarger school. It belonged to Chap Proffit and I don't think he wanted to sell it. So they just condemned it and paid him whatever a comminitee said it was worth. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mr. Proffit: And I don't know now about the building. Who paid for it? It could have been paid for by state funds . Of course that was--I don't know the daoe., it could have been after WWl or it could have been before. Interviewer: Unl huh. Mr. Proffit: Proffit's Grove church-if you want more on churches was started orginally as an arm of Meat CAmp, I think I've got records on that somewhere if you want me to check it would be better than guessing. Interviewer: Sure. Mr. Proffit: The next church on Meat Camp was the Lutheran Church. I believe. Do you know what they called it? (Question directed to Laura Proffit) Laura Proffit: What? �10 Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: Mr. Proffit: Laura proffit: What did they call the Lutheran church what name ,the old one? The What? The old Lutheran Church? Up here; Well what was the name of that church? Mr. Proffit: Well anyhow it was the Lutheran congregation. down below Lucy Winebarger lived. Laura Proffit: Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: I know what the---Well just let it go. But I can't the more think of it than nothing. Mr. Proffit: When they rebuilt they called the new one have been the same as the old one but I don't know. Laura Proffit: I know where the church is and all that. many and a many of a Sunday up there. Interviewer: Now when they rebuilt ~1ount Well what was it? Zion it could I went to Sunday School Where was the first one located? Mr. Proffit: It was on the bank just abive where Dayton Winebarger's house is around a little behind it. Right straight in front of the old Willy house. And it was--oh-I don't know-50 yds above. the Willy house I guess or above the road. It's been down for 30,35 years or more. Laura Proffit: The f irst Christmas card I ever seen. He sent me and Lunda. Sent it to both of us. Put both our names on it. And I guess its in there in that old trunk yet. Well what in the world--I don't know. Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: not? Mr. Proffit: Well let it go. We'll get on with this. It wasn't . Mount Zion was it? I don't know whether it was or Anyway it vrns started about 1874. Laura Proffit: Now that one and Hopewell and Meat Camp was the only churches there was through this country at that time. Ana people went to them all when there was meetin or something, everybody -people would all go to each of them and they'd be houses full. Mr. Proffit: Well drop that now. We're going on. The Proffit's Grove church according to the minutes of Meat Camp was first established as an arm of Meat Camp in Feb. 17 or 1890. They had a-- as it says here- a protractal meeting at the head of Meat Camp. Condu c ted by J. F. Dotson, L.A. Wilson~ David Green and they reciev ed some members from that and granted premission to hold services there as f ar as down to Meat Camp and from then on for several years they had minutes in there records from this arm. They begin making up money then to try �11 to build a church house. And I don't know exactly the time I think about 1911 maybe they got it finished and seperated from Meat Camp. That seems to be all I~ got on that. Interviewer: What about the Methodist Church? M~Proffit: Yeah, it was--I forget- Ithink there's a sign on the side of the house there that tells when it was organized- seems like that-- It may have been around 1911 or 12. I'm not certain now. All the people up there went to Hopewell to they got that one started. I know in the early 1900's they still had funeral services for Methodists at Hopewell then. I imagine that it probably was around 1910 or 11 when it was built. I believe that's the last one until the Holiness church wasn't it? I don't rememoer that was in the 50's sometime I don't remember the exact date maybe 55 or 6 somewhere along there could have been 54. Interviewer: Have the people in the different churches always interacted pretty well er have the different churches always interacted pretty well with each other? Mr. Proffit: Well, not to a great extent 1n some ways they have. IN community affairs I think they did pretty much. In there religion they didn't tend to as much. Each one of them was more of less to themselves a lot of people attained services other places but that was about the limits of it. Interviewer: But they did-they were- they did pretty well together in commmnity affairs and stuff like that? Mr. Proffit: Yeah, as far as I know there wasn't any what you would say antagonsism it was just-- .They just differed on what · they believed. Irterviewer: Have different community affairs or at least needs community affairs have they changed very much? i f\' community M~Proffit: Yeah there's been a lot of change in the way things are done--back in the early time according to reports at least they worked together a lot. In the fall maybe they's have corn s lfckins, bean stringins maybe things like that. The whole community about would gather in and do whatever was to be done. In the spring maybe they'd have log rollings clearing fields about all the men would ho for that. Maybe the women go and cook. I guess that's been the biggest change you don't find any of that now. No logs to be rolled no corn to shuck either and it was said that back in the time after the civil war for years when people would have there corn in there was a custom more or less to put a gallon of whiskey under one shuck or pack and when they got down do it. Then whoever get it first got the first drink out of it. Interviewer: M~Proffit: Then pass it around Yeah Interviewer: I thenk its interesting that they were able to take something like that and make it into a community type of affair and have fun with it as well as They could take there work and have fun with it. Its kinda hard to do these days. �12 Mr. Proffit: Yeah. There conditions was all different. You couldn't very well get anything now to draw a whole community in. Of course the community is a whole lot bigger than it was then to, people I mean. Irterveiwer: Right Mr Proffit : And travel and all that was pretty much restricted to home . You couldn't go any distance in a day and no roads either . Back when they first settled this country there wasn't ever a wagon road. Interveiwer: Do you think. One thing I ' ve noticed about Heat Camp is that there's not a whole lot of development in this area and ah. llr _ E roffit ~ : No Inte rveiwer Which I think is good for this area. would like to see a little bit more development. Do you think people around here Mr. Proffit: I'd say most of them probably wouldn't . Interveiwer : Um-huh Mr . Proffit : For one thing its pretty well the same families now as it was back early. Practically everybody in this community is related and with some exceptions most of land still belongs to the descendants of the orginal families . I think Probably that would make some difference . Interveiwer : I hope so M~Proffit: Developing would bring in outsiders . That nobody knows. Of course this Proffit place over here on the back of the mountain was sold to some developers. I don ' t know how much of it has been resold . There ' s a few houses been built on it. I don't know who anybody is . Whether they ' re even from any where in this country or not . I doubt it . Interveiwer : Do most of the people-the few that do move into this country-do they adapt pretty well . Do you think? Mr Proffit: Well I think so of course some of them just stay to themselves . They don ' t get acquainted to many. People here don ' t bother them . Interveiwer : People still pretty close knit? MrProffit : Well pretty much . Nows there ' s a few, the Todd family out on the section toward the flat woods. 0 dpn ' t think they mingle so nuch with the people but yet they don't slight them or anything like that. They ' ve been here several years and I think most people who know them seem to like them . There ' s a man bought a place up here above the mill flune, everyboky that knows him said he ' s a nice man but they'er was very few that knew him . But I think he's sold it now . �13 Interveiwer: Um huh Mr Proffit: But s-till that's not qu~te the same as a development in the since that you mean. I mean a family here and there. Itterveiwer: Right, Yeah I mean like people coming in and building apartments and that sort of t9ing. Mr Proffit: Yeah, I understood what you meant. Itterviewer: Yeah, I think its really unique to this area compared to the rest of .Watauga county that that hasn't happened yet and I hope it never does. Mr. Proffit: Yeah. Interviewer: But maybe the strength is in that this area still in the land everythings still owned by the folks who are descends of the orginial settlers. Where as in so many other places its all just been sold. Mr. Proffit: Mostly everybody involves strangers. Interviewer: They come from some other part of the country, where they come in here and they, they don't really take the time to look at how people live here am the way people are here. They kind o f expect them to be the way. that they are, f rom where they come from. Mr. Proffit: That makes one considerable difference; you hardly ever find customs the same in two places. There are people here, practically all of them can trace connectiona back to some of their earlier families, some of 'em know about all. Mr. Proffit gets up to clean his pipe and tape is shut off at this point. Cut back on as Deloris is asking about work ane outside of the area. Mr. Proffit: I don't believe I quite understand what you mean. Interviewer: Well, I mean like working in Plants. Mr. Proffit: Well, I don't hardly know that. There wasn't but very little of it before World War LL. Course there wasn't any factories here in the county till after the war I guess. Pipe shop at Boone may have been the first to employ any number of people, it didn't employ a lot. And I'd say that was probably in the forties--must have been. Tobacco warehouses in Boone went in somewhere along there, '39 or '40 maybe and that employed a few people at a particular time but it was just seasonal . Some people went to Lenior and other places to work in the furniture factories before that, but it was just one here'n there. There was a hosiery mill--! don't remember the name of it. That could've been in the '40's. And later on I guess probably that I RC may have been t~e first big factory. Probably Shadowline was next and the saw plant may be the last one.Vermont American. Interviewer: There aren't any plants in the Meat ·Camp area ar all? �14 Mr. Proffit: There's H & T Chair down here in my place. It's a amall operation. Course there was a few years that they did a good business. Its still runnin', but-------I don't know of anything else. Interviewer: Most other businesses that would be in this community be like some of the stores? would ~ just Mr. Proffit: I suppose it would. I don't think of anything that --nothing that employs many people or furnishes much business except that. Interviewer: And farming------that some people might do. do it on a large scale anymore, do they? I guess they wouldn't Mr. Proffit: Not, not much. There's a few people that still with a farm' n cattle together earn a good bit of money. The Green's down in the lower end. I don't know, there may be a few others. Farming wouldn't account for too much through here now. Interviewer: Just kind of, you grow what vegetables you need for your own use? Mr. Proffit: Yeah. Interviewer: Did you have a pretty good year this year? Mr. Proffit: Well fair, I didn't have as much yeild as I like to have but everything was good, I mean, all done very well, just didn't turn off too much. Interviewer: Yeah- I didn't get much art of my garden this year so I was wondering? Interviewer: This is off the subject a little but do you know what nationalities the people were that first came? M~Proffit: Pretty well. I'd say that practical all of them, the first one's English, course its' a mixture after all. We got in t .h e country now, the origial, we got English, Welsh, Irish, Scotish, a trace of Belgian, some Danish, German, and Dutch. I don't know of anything else. Practically all of us have got a bit of all of it. Now the Byrans is Danish. Morgan Bryan was born in Denmark and ·.his wife was Dutch. She was ·born somewhere in the Netherlands I think. Interviewer: Holland probably. Mr. Pro ff it: Then her family moved to France and she was raised there. ~h'" y ~ me~· in P;;± i ad~lphia . .. , Th~- Prof.fit~ \<!a~ En,giish. - There Is a ·nifxfore ·a f 'possibly Irish and certainly Scotish in the family. The Lewis'· was Welsh and the Joneses, course we don't have any Joneses now in the community that I know of, used to be some, And there's well been another family of two of Welsh connections. The �15 Greens and certain others were Scottish . The ijoleman's English but their names supposed to it ' s called- a Viking settlement in England. in time. But about all the families here was than the others. After a while anything runs Davis ' was Welsh, I overlooked them. have come from .Danedyher- whatever They mingled with the English people principally English I imagine moreso out, I reckon . Interviewer: Has un-huh- lets see how to word this. Has as far as where people are living now, in the homes that their living in--has Meat Camp gotton any smaller you know people living closer together or do they--is there still a pretty good distance between homes? Mr . Proffit: Well, they is a lot closer than they used to be, course they're more people . P.e say ' s (his uncle) he can remember when there weren't but a half a dozen or so homes on Meat Camp, on the ------ Interviewer: Uh-huh . Are you still able to do a lot of hunting around in this area? Mr. Proffit: Well you could some if there was anything to hunt for . It's pretty cleared out of game now . Course the turn loose deer and bear and so on, but I don't think they allow hunting them yet . The old native games about all gone. Interviewer : Were there any doctors that lived in Mr. Proffit : Uh not that I know of. (addressed to Uncle) Tom Proffit: ~he area? Wllere did Tom Blackburn live, at Todd? Yeah, I think so. Mr. Proffit : I guess he was the closest one, there was one, Sutherland- Stopwell I think. Some at Boone, but I don ' t think we ever had any on Meat Camp . The doctorin here was done mostly by the people in the community without a license . Now Granny Winebarger was a Doctor of sorts . Course she was mainly a midwife, but she treated people for what they had any knowledge of. Interviewer: They depended on a lot on the midwifes for a lot of the doctoring, didn ' tthey? I guess deliverying babies but a lot of general medicine stuff too. Mr. Proffit : Yeah, they treated fevers and ever so many things like that . Practically anything except most serious things. I don't suppose they tried to set bones or anything like that . But they had a pretty good knowledge of most of the general ailments . Now this Granny Winebarger I mentioned was Jacobs ' wife . The one that first settled here. Sne had a doctor book . Had, I suppose , a description of simptons and so on, what to use to treat different things. A lot of it was superstition. Granny Proffit was a midwife too, I don ' t knm.r if she went in for any other kind of doctoring or not . Aunt Evan Moretz was , I believe she had a pretty good knowledge of various things. Interviewer : Did they use a lot of they used a lot of herbs I guess, didn't they? Mr. Proffit : Oh practically all, even the doctors did back at that time . �16 Interviewer: Do they still grow many of those types of herbs or do they grow wild? Mr. Proffit: They mostly grow wild, I don't know wheather anybody cultivates any of them or not. You can still find some of them in the woods places. Interviewer: Do you remember who some of the first teachers were in this area? Mr. Proffit: Well I don't know, about a long way back Epheran Miller was a teacher. Interviewer: Is this the same one that was in the Civil war? Mr. Proffit: No that a different one, his nephew. That would of been at a later time after the war. Probabably a good many years after. I can't give you the names of any before then, now. I don't think of any. Interviewer: Were most of the teachers that came into this area, really at ·any time were they, were many of them from this area originally? Mr. Proffit: Well, I suppose they all would've been, early. Ephan w-s raised I guess in there-- Riddles Fork section, which you would say next door at least. Well he lived on Meat Camp too, I forgot about after he married he lived in the Woodring hollar. So I guess he probably did live here when he was teaching here. Course I can remember on a few would have been teaching, but that's on ahead of where you wanted I guess. Interviewer~ ·: ~ot, 1 well ( '.Delci>;n-is- ) , Yeah . . Mr. Proffit: Glayds Moretz was my first teacher. Eleanor Moretz was a teacher, she lived-uh-well in the house where the Barlow boy lives now. Owen .Winebarger was the first one I can remember I guess. I don't even know back behind them. Burt Davis was a teacher but he lived down at Riddles Fork, too or the other side. Interviewer : How many -uh- months when the schools, like the first schools- were Proffits Grove church is now- how many months of the year did they go? Mr. Proffit: I think that was a three months school. Interviewer: You know what year that it was torn down? Mr. Proffit: No do you know? (addressed to Uncle) Torn Proffit: What? Mr. Proffit: The old school house, when was it tore down? Torn Proffit: I don't know, the main old one I don't know. Mr. Proffit: Now they used it for a church building a long time after they quit using it for a school. Torn Proffit: Now when I went to school the main old school that had been there, �17 it was already tore down. That's been about 80 years ago cause I'm 85 and a little over and that ' s first school I ever went to when Gutter(?) Moretz was the teacher . Mr. Proffit: Now he lived on Big Hill. Interviewer : He traveled over here? Mr . Proffit: to Unclel Yeah, I suppose he did . Tom Proffit: I guess he did. I guess he went home didn't he? (addressed Mr . Proffit: At that time they didn't mind 6 or 8 miles so much . been a pretty good walk, maybe more than that. He lived Course it had --- END OF SIDE 11, TAPE 1 . Tom Proffit: It was usaally out about Christmas. Mr . Proffit: Well it would have been September probably when it started. Interviewer: Did it interfer very much with things you know like the farming end-of what the students had to do at home? Mr. Proffit: No I wouldn't think so, They probably would have had the work pretty well done up by that time. Of course the children that was old enough to do much worked with it and kept up if there was anything to do anyway. Interviewer : know? What was the average number of students that went up there do you Mr . Proffit : Do you know how many went about? (Question addressed to his Uncle) Tom Proffit: No it was about full, but I don ' t know if they ever kept talley or not, how many went . Interviewer: Who paid the teachers? Mr . Proffit: How did they handle the paying then? Tom Proffit : I reckon they did, county one, I don't know which . Did the state pay then or--? Mr . Proffit : County possibly at that time . Of course the earliest one was subscription People just paid so much for their own children. The time he's talking about I guess it was county or state one . Interviewer : Did teachers back then did they ever like talk to the parents of the students very much? You know like they've got the PTA today? Mr. Proffit: No . No I don ' t think so . Interviewer: Un-huh. �18 Mr. Proffit : How it was, was if the parents didn't like something they'd go down and jump on the teacher . But as far as any discussion now what you mean is wherehow they are doing in school and all that, I doubt of there was much of that. Tom Proffit : No. Mr. Proffit : Have you got any other questions? Interviewer: You mentioned a- one fellow around that was from Meat ·camp that had been involved in politics back around the civil war . Mr. Proffit : Yeah, That was before . It was in the early 1800 ' s . Interviewer: Was there anybody after that? Mr. Proffit: 1 don ' t know of anybody office above the county level or not. officers but I don ' t remember anybody Now Spencer Blackburn was raised over but I don't think he lived over there Interviewer: on Meat CAmp that ever served in any political Of course we ' ve had commissariers and local else that went to legislature to congress . here on the Green Place. He was in Congress the time he was in congress . Is that state congress? Mr. Proffit: No. He was national, but he was raised over close above that place I told you about that was sold off to the developers, the Edmund Blackburn place. I don't know how long he served, it was in I think, in the 1890's wouldn ' t it when he was in. Tom Proffit : Probably was. Mr . Proffit : I don't know how long he served he died in office. But he was a young man yet when he died so he might not have served more than two or three terms . Interviewer: As far as Meat CAmp conununity do you-~Has there ever been a time when it was really ever considered as a community? Mr . Proffit : Well of course in the earlier times it wouldn't have been . I ' d say the main development started from about 1835 along there. The Ragan ' s family could have lived on Meat Camp or it could have been a long ways on either side and still have been on there property. I don't know where there orginial home was and the Greens didn ' t live here to latter, I mean, on what we call Meat Camp now, it was on further down . I expect Joe Miller might have been the first one to live right on--in the valley here . Interviewer : Say like about 1835 would they have been having conununity meetings and that sort of things? Mr . Proffit : No, that would have been a little to early for that . It was-He lived here then . Billy Miller on the head of the creek 2 miles apart. And Levi Wilson- 3 or 4 families . They probably wouldn ' t have been much between them at that time. �19 Interviewer: Was it refered to as ~eat Camp at that time? Mr. Proffit: Yeah. According to the old tales that we use--the name comes from back when people from below the mountains would come up and hunt. They'd kill deer and bear and so on, skin it out. And they had a place where they took the meat and stored it to they went back. That's what give it the name. There's two or three places that's been pointed out as the camp. Of course that's just theory but chances are they are all right, there might have been a camp maybe on the lower end and one on the upper end too. There's supposed to be one down in the field I reckon you would call it or use to be a field, belongs to the Greens now. Down the creek below Meat Camp service station in there. Some claims there was one on the land, I guess Gene Moretz owns now. And theres a possibility that there was. They could have stored one time at one place and the other at the other place. Wouldn't necessarily have to be any conflict in it. Tom Proffit: Well the camp burnt. That's what give it the name Meat Camp I think. Interview.er: Has there ever been any conflict between any of the families that have lived in this community? Proffit: No, nothing more than just ordinary spats. No feuds or anything like that. Actually the most of what trouble thats been here has been between people that has moved in from somewhere else,' all the killing that I know of has been between people that use to live somewhere else and moved in here. Of course sometimes there'd be fights and people maybe be mad . for a few days. But in general I imagine its been about as peaceable as any community amoung the originial settlers. ~r. Pause in tape -"') Interviewer: Do you have any more questions? 0 Interviewer: Not that I can think of. J Interviewer: I think we've pretty well covered everythin?. Mr. Proffit: Are you interested in mills and blacksmiths shops? Interviewer: Sure Anythings that's----Yeah. Mr. Proffit: Well of course the Proffit mill I think was the first one on Meat CAmp. I don't know when it was built but I'd say brobably by 1850 or maybe a little before. Jacob Winebarger's very likely was the next. I don't know the date. Thats been argued at different time but very likely in the 1860's. I think Will said about about 1873 I think he's a little late oa it I believe it was a little eearlier than that. I can't give you the dates now or even the order exactly but Poula(?) Moretz had a rollar mill in the bottom where Clint Miller lives now. Thatwas a lot later through. There was one up at the Lester Wilcox place. I think the old wheel may be there yet, I don't remember now. The building is partly there at least. I think the last time I noticed it the water wheel was there but it may be gone. I wouldn't say. And there was one up above where Dean Proffit lives. �20 Lark run it for years, Lark Miller, and--Did Willet have a mill there before Lark did? Tom Proffit : I don't know, probably did have. Mr . Proffit : He had one somewhere in there . Gene Moretz had one on up above his house. I think its still there water wheel and building at least or was a few years ago . I don't remember if there's anymore or not . Jacob Winebarger had a blacksmith shop back early, and latter Will Winebarger had one . I believe the old building is there yet . Noah Winebarger had one between the road and the creek just across from the Harvey Trivette house. Hosea Miller had a shop up upon the mountain a little . Interviewer : Do blacksmiths work on wagons as well as on the horses? Mr. Pro f fit : Yeah . Interviewer: They were kinda like the early auto mechanics I guess. Mr . Proffit : Yeah it was pretty good business putting tires on wagons wheels . They used Iron tires on them. They'd weld the tires and put them on the wheels and they made other metal pieces that had to be used on wagons . They fired plows and things like that. Interviewer: Did they do any tanning or anything the blacksmiths, or would they let someone else? Mr. Proffit : I don't think so. That would have been-or might be somebody that could about everything might have probably-- I don't think it was connected with the blacksmith work. Show us an Iron . Mr. Proffit : Ther ' s an iron Noah Winebarger put a handle in . broke off he made that one . The handle got Interviewer : Do they set this in coals or something set this in and get it hot? Mr. Pro f fit: I don't know how it was done . Interviewer: You would think he bought it like this . Mr. Proffit: Welded without a torch at that time. Interviewer : They welded this without any torch that's amazing . But he welded the handle in it . Mr . Pro f fit: They heated the two pieces of metal red hot and put borers on that piece that was welded to it and hammered it together. Interviewer: Uh-huh. �21 Interviewer: I don't think I'd like that job. shows us a device used to make shoes Mr. Proffit: Put the shoe on there and hanuner it. Interviewer: Did they--! read somewhere that use to---that they use to didn't make shoes for right and · left feet they made so that they could fit on either foot. Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: there too? I've heard that, I don't know whether it's right or not. There use to be one size bigger than that like that. Mr. Proffit: That's the only one that's here. Tom Proff i t: Is it under I thought there was two or three in that outfit. Mr. Proffit: Peopl~ made there oym shoes back then too. for others. Roby Bryan could make shoes. Interviewer: Few people made them Where they just all leather is that how they'd make them, the material? Mr. Prof f it: I think so. Yeah. like that for soles, then. END OF INTERVIEW , . I don't suppose they had any rubber or anything MIDDLE OF SIDE 1. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Skelton, Joseph Proffit, Deloris Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Proffit, Robert Interview Date 10/3/1980 Number of pages 21 pages Date digitized 9/24/2014 File size 14.7MB Checksum alphanumeric code d5ab4a2ab3eac00fce47d679659e8c62 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape490-1_RobertProffit_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Proffit [October 3, 1980] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skelton, Joseph Proffit, Deloris Proffit, Robert Subject The topic of the resource Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History Mountain life--North Carolina--Ashe County--History Mountain life--North Carolina--Wilkes County--History Mountain life--North Carolina--Avery County--History Description An account of the resource Robert Proffit talks about Meat Camp's early history from the first settler John Green in 1788. Over the next few decades, people began to trickle in to Western North Carolina. He talks about the first churches in the area: Hopewell Methodist Church and Meat Camp Church. He also describes the civil war, how many members of the community enlisted with the confederate army, but after the war there wasn't much difference in Meat Camp. Proffit explains Meat Camp well with this statement: "there was never anything here to begin with except just natural things." Ashe County Avery County Big Hill blacksmith Boone David Miller Early Settlers H&T Chair herbs herbs and roots Hopewell Methodist Church John Green Meat Camp Meat Camp Church Proffit's Grove Church Riddles Fork Robert Proffit roots Spencer Blackburn tobacco warehouse Watauga County N.C. Wilkes County https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ec25852d7a8f225d472b32edd08d3367.pdf 365dbbafbcecbdc488518900679d1735 PDF Text Text TAPE #44, 45 This is an interview with Bea Hensley and Mike Hensley in Spruce Pine, North Carolina on March 24,1973, by Lester Harmon and Bill Brinkley for the Appalachian Oral History Project. A: Well, we start from scratch every day, what we do, we taper coal or raw coal like this and we've got a "duck's nest", what is called a "duck's nest" in there. It is actually a pot that has holes in the bottom of it, where your air comes up through. Pack that coal down around six inch pipe and then take the pipe out and just put paper down in the hole and then ignite it. Then at the same time you're burning coal, you are making coke. Q: Is this the coke? A: This is the coke and then while you're burning, the coke has a shorter life span than coal does, but yet it'll burn hotter. I can run this fire up to about four thousand degrees, when I want to. Now it doesn't run that hot normally because of the fact that, at four thousand degrees, you could melt a piece of 1-8-1 right quick. So you generally run it around seven, eight hundred, nine hundred, thousand degrees all the time. But the important part about this is your coke. Your coke has all the impurities that the coal has and you've already burned out. Then you get cleaner heat, and especially in making a forge weld, you have to have a clean fire. Then certain things that you do, for instance making this particular twisted handle, well, you have to have a clean fire on that because the ball is forge welded on plus if you had any impurities in the fires, these would have a tendency to stick together, that form separate pieces. That happens to be the hardest thing in black- smithing to do. �Q: Do you use both the ovens? A: Yes, this one's dad's. This is the only time that we work together, when we're going to give a demonstration. my tools. I use my anvil, my forge, my hammers, But if we're going to give a demonstration or anything like that, we use his forges most the time, his anvil, because he's familiar with it. It's to his height, and I can bend over, but he can't stretch. Q:Is this a, this is the original flooring right here, of the old building? A: Yes, no, our old building is up front. We don't have any, this is a brand new building. We've only been in it about three years. at this location for twenty some years. But Dad's been here Then when I went business with him about six years ago, we had to build a new building. The other shop was just a one man shop. We were turning around in each other's way, so we had to eliminate the showroom and things like that, where we had a complete, big display set up and everything. But, actually we got this new building, we'd decided we'd . eliminate the showroom, and everything temporarily. We'll have one one day. But all we have on exhibit is what we make up and are ready to ship out or people going to deliver. are going to come and pick up or we're That's all we have on hand anymore. Q: Are these clay floors? A: Yea, it's red clay. We have it for two reasons. The main reason is because standing all day doesn't hurt you like concrete does. with you. It's a lot more like a cushion. It will give The second reason, a lot of time when we're wanting to cool steel, w e ' r e not wanting to put it in water, such as �the balls on top of andirons. Those are solid, we forge those, and if you put those in water they'll crystallize. They'll become glass hard and you can't drill, you can't do anything with 'em, so we put 'em on the dirt floor to cool. They'll cool a little more rapid than they would on concrete. Q: How much do one of those balls weigh? A: Oh, they don't weigh much. They weigh about three to five pounds, something like that. Q: How long have you been working with your dad? A: I've been in the shop since I was four years old. I kinda grew up in the trade. Q: Pretty well know the business then? A: Well, yes and no. There is still a lot to learn, you learn everything everyday. Because the thing about it is, no two pieces of metal work alike. You have to work each individual piece as an individual piece, because of the fact, that it has hard places in it and soft places in it and throwing the scroll, it may have a, pull a flat spot. You have to know where to take this out. You may have to work a little different on it than you did on the previous piece. Q: You read each piece of metal before you start working with it? A: Well, you don't exactly read it. You read it as you go. You get a piece �4. ' paper and I'll start this fire, and get this made. If it gets above fifty-five or sixty in here, we're just too hot to work. But we do work during the summer time. Q: I bet it gets very hot during the summer. A: Ah, of course we've got the windows open, we got a big fan that we turn on. Q: Now where does that connect to.? A: This comes under the forge and we have a gauge valve on it here that controls the air that comes up into the "duck's nest". Q: Does that smoke cause the yellow smoke? A: No, it's really the paper. When the paper burns out, it should have the coke hot enough to where it'll stay hot the rest of the day. Of course, the coke will burn out, and we have to keep adding coke to it. But, that's the reason that we're making coke at the same time, we tear out and rebuild the fire, as you can see the paper's beginning to burn out now. Q: Do you take part of this coke out and save it? A: We take all of it. We clean the whole "duck's nest". "duck's nest" if you want to see what one looks like. are, here in the center. I ' v e got an empty This is where the holes And then this is where we place the six inch pipe around like this, so it will not, the coal will not cover up the holes. Then you put �5. all the raw coal around this, or the forging coal, and ycu let your two mounds come out on each side. Q: Are those two mounds raw coal? A: Raw coal, and they will t u r n into some coke. Now they don't turn into all coke, but this is mainly to contain the heat from the sides, cause you want your opening clean through so you can slide your piece of metal through, back and forth to keep it pure during what we call a "long feed" on it when you can slide it front and backwards through it. Q: Do you have any of the old bellows, I believe they used? A: No, everytime we wanted to buy a pair, they found out that'we're' blacksmiths and won't sell 'em to us. Well, we're in it to make a living. Someone had to make me a pair. It's pleasure, but still we have to make a living at it, so that's the reason we had to go to the electric blowers. It eliminates all the hand pumping there all day long. Q: Could you kinda talk about the fire a little bit with us? A: Hardly know what to say about the fire. burnt out. It's practically no good. or for working in all day long. Really, this fire now is nearly This is not a real fire for forge welding Now to work big pieces where you were going to forge out a ball like is on the andirons or in something like that, it is a good fire because it's open, and it's out to where you can get down in it because you place the ball right down in it, and you'll run the ball up to �6. to around fifteen hundred degrees, that you run the ball up to. But it's higher than that sometimes, depending on the hardness of the metal that you have. And of course, if once we bring it out, we stick it under the pile hammer, this is the pile hammer over here, but that eliminates me hammering it. But as far as, well, the two mounds like we're telling ya before, contains the heat from the side, so that you'll get more heat. Then this a forging fire instead of a forge welding fire. A forge welding fire wants to be a fire that is brand new with raw coal. Then you burn coke inside of that so that you can eliminate the impurities, you're burning mostly coke then. Now you're burning your coke itself that you're making. Q: That right there's the coke burning itself? A: Right, you can see that outer ridge around here, coke's beginning to burn now, itself instead of makin' coal. Dad wants to go ahead and do it. What we'll do for you here now, if If you'll wait just a minute, we'll fix it up here, and I'll get my hammers and everything and we'll get ready to go. Q: I don't know much about the blacksmith. there? How do you put the metal in I mean you have something you hold it with or.. . ? A: Well, you have tongs you hold it with or you have the pieces long enough, you know, to hold with your hands. Boy, it's chilly out there. Q: Yeah, it is. That blue flame looks like it's getting pretty hot right now. A: Boy, you can melt a piece of steel in there and it don't look like a big �fire, but it's hot. Q: What are you doing that for? A: Really, it's two things; it drys the moisture off the hammer handle so the hammer handle will slide through your hands, then to get it warm. Mostly to get the moisture off it, you don't pay too much attention to the coldness of it. Q: Is there a special reason for getting moisture off? A: Right, you never hold your hammer handle tight, like a carpenter would hold a claw hammer. It has to be able to move in your hand freely, cause a turning scrolls hammering position is a certain position that you have to move your hammer head into, such as, in forging special pieces or a flowering piece, like a fish tail scroll or something like that. You may have to turn your hammer head just a millionth of an inch, so you have to be able to have this hand, your hammer completely under control, but yet, loose in your hand where you can turn it. what makes it so hard to learn. That's the big secret of blacksmithing, that's You can. really get a Ph.D. degree quicker than you can learn blacksmithing. Q: Is that right? Your father taught you how, is that. . . ? A: Right. Dad's the first one in the family. Q: Did you ever have to go to school to pick up any of this. there a subject, are there any courses? I mean, is �.A: No, there's no such thing as a blacksmith school that I know of anywhere, really, in the United States. Now there are schools that teach horse shoeing, but horse shoeing is just a different aspect or a side aspect of real blacksmithing. Let me get this anvil. . . (He hits the anvil. ) Q: We should be getting this on film, too. A: I'm just turning it now. Q: What is the purpose of turning this? A: It becomes a, what we call, all our anvils are bought for their musical quality and for two reasons. One is because you have to live anvil and a live anvil is this. (He plays the anvil) And when you can hear that particular sound like that out of an anvil, means that for every hundred pounds that you hit down, it'll hit back that many hundred pounds. Another thing, you don't have to pick your hammer up. It'll pick up your hammer for you. But a dead anvil, or an anvil that's fastened completely down, you have to pick up your hammer and it won't hit back. This one, in working on it, you can, in other words, you can hit a few pounds less and do the same thing with it, whereas you might have to hit a whole lot harder on a dead anvil. Plus the fact that the thing that Dad and I do together, the language that we do together, we have to have it, because you go a lot by sound; you go a lot by the positioning of the hammer, not only from the aspect of the master's point of view, but from the apprentice's point of view, because the metal will change sounds and in the anvil, plus in the position of your hammer. The �colder it gets the deader the sound, I mean the live the sound, because the steel's more mellow when it's hot. Just about two seconds, if I can get a piece of chalk. Q: What's the purpose of the chalk? A: It eliminates moisture from your hands, so you, that you can slide. If you want to move right there you can see a lot better. Cause I'm going to be standing in your light. HE PLAYS THE ANVILS PLAYS THEM HE AND HIS FATHER Q: Gosh, I have never seen anything like that in my life! ! A: I would have done it longer, but it's cold this morning and I'm not warmed up yet. Q: That's almost unreal! That is really fantastic! I just can't believe that! That is really great! A: What this is, it's really a language. We'll have to go through it again. What it is, he's the master and I would be considered the apprentice on this side of the anvil. So what he is doing, he's telling me exactly what to do. Then after, well, as long as he's playing on the face of the anvil, I can work either side of the metal that I want to. And also, I'm doing it right. Then when he goes off and hits the heel, that's telling me to work on this side alone. And once he hits that heel and how hard he hits that heel's how hard �10. I work this. The position, whether he hits it back or front, tells me to work high or low on it. Then when he switches over to the horn, that tells me to work on this side alone. this side. How hard he hits the horn, is how hard I work on And then whether he hits the front or back of the horn, tells me to work high or low on it. Then when he reaches his hammer in there and taps a spot, he's telling me one specific spot to hit, because of the two different view points of light that you have. Then he'll tell also how hard to hit that spot with that hammer lick. And then when he comes over here, which we didn't get a chance to really do on account of arm cramping on me, he hits the horn back and forth, back and forth on it, that tells me to draw the piece of metal longer. to it. Every sound or every position that hammer has a meaning You spend four years on this side of the anvil and doing nothing but this, but you work the complete face and horn of the anvil. Then once you do that, you switch to the other side of the anvil and work six years with the master on the same anvil. Then after you do that, you go to another separate anvil, in the same shop, and work four more years before you get your master's license. So you have fourteen years all to it. Q: You do have a master's license? A: No, there's no such thing today as this, because we have eliminated a few of the good things from the past, from the apprentice, and fellow craftsmen; master programs that we used to have. is how I learn blacksmithing. But this is. old country doctrine. This Then we can trace this particular language back to the building of King Solomon's temple. And it's one of the oldest unwritten languages �11. on earth. And there's no way to write it down, because after spending four years on the apprentice side of the anvil, you know exactly how to turn your hammer. How to shape a piece of steel, generally. Now after you shape that piece of steel, generally you switch to the other side. And then you start in your finer details; how to draw, how to make scrolls and make roses and leaves of all types, clusters of berries, and things like this. Some of the old techniques that they really had down to a fine art. you go to your anvil and you create your own designs. Then after that, Then once you've done that, you can go into competition or go into partnership with whoever you want to. The only reason that we really don't have any recorded blacksmiths during the Renaissance Period andup through that section is because there was one practically on every street corner, plus the fact that the apprentice are, after he once got his master's license, he might like to make knives better than he did wrought iron work, so he went into the cutlery/ business, which is a phase of blacksmithing. he likes to do wrought iron work. One might like to shoe horses better than Once he does that, he's afarrier. And then another man might want to be an armorer which was a phase of blacksmithing. Another might like to make guns better than anything else, so that was the gun smith. All these were phases of blacksmithing. Even your coppersmiths, your silversmiths, people like this were all out of the traditional blacksmithing field, because the blacksmith generally made andirons fire sets, screens, chandeliers, and all types of railings, gates, things like this. Of course, today we have brought the blacksmith down to the �12. horse shoer today, but really he's the farrier. Then of course, you have your wheel wright which is another aspect of blacksmithing; that goes to your covered wagon days. I don't know too much about wheel wright, but Dad can do the wagon wheels and all the wheel wright work. And we have a lot of the wheel wright tools, but not all of them. But he likes the artistic views of blacksmithing, because you just don't go down the road everyday repairing wagons. We could have a good business shoeing horses and you could make a good living at shoeing horses. But still it's hard on the back; it's hard on the liver. Q: Hard on the liver? A: Yes, you stay in a bent over position all day like that. You're down like this and then wait til you get your leg ripped up or something like that with a horse shoe nail, or get kicked, or something like that. serious by shoeing horses. You can get hurt real There's good money in it. Q: Do you have any ideas how many different types of blacksmiths there are today? A: No, not really. Because a little bit of, like I said gun smiths, a lot of it is eliminated due to the machine age. your wheel wright. We have no more call for it such as Now a gunsmith, even though he is a modern gunsmith and he's got his lathes and everything, but it's not really the blacksmithing type that he once was in the muzzleloader days when he made the barrels, and the locks, forged the trigger guards, and the triggers, and trigger sets and all the gun springs and everything. The closest that you have to a �13 specialized blacksmith now-a-days are your knife makers, throughout the United States and very few of those do forge work on 'em. Most of 'em grind 'em out, and then they have a pryometer furnace that they can heat treat 'em in. They do not do the hand tempering or anything like that. getting away from the blacksmithing aspect. So, they're Your coppersmiths and your silversmiths, they've gone to your dyes and your molds, things like this. And a lot of them are eliminated, even though there are some excellent silversmith craftsmen, still left in the United States, they've gone a lot into production work. A lot of it is cast silver, which it's, you have to have a mold and sand and things like this. form at one time of blacksmithing. And even foundry work today was a But that's where you have to carve a mold and do a deal with sand and melt your metal, and pour it in, which a lot of schools are teaching in a small way, in your industrial arts and things like that. Q: Your father was the first blacksmith in the family? A: Yes, my grandfather was a Baptist minister. Q: Is that right? Mr. Hensley, how did you learn this art? A: Born that-a-way. You can't help it when you're born into it. Q: You just took right off into it? A: I'll forge a little piece here for ya, let ya see how it's done. I gotta bend down here and work in that water and that. . �14. Q: Do you think there has been any kind of revival of interest in this sorta thing? Are there more people beginning to do it, or is it dying out? A: It might be a little bit, but nobo dy won't do it. You don't have to worry • \t people, you know, a-do Our's is rough. Too many things involved. You've got to be able to run a business to begin with. And takes TOO LONG TO LEARN IT. Most people want to do something they can learn in six weeks, so he ain't going to do this. Then equipment's hard to get. You either have to make it or pick up used, because you see, Champion and Forger Company, a lot of these big companies, they don't ev^n raak§ equipment you need anymore. For instance, that power hammer right there, you couldn't, unless you could find one of those used in a place, well, you wouldn't be able to buy it. Q: Could you make that? A: I could make one, yeah. anvil before you can use that. in it. But that one, you gotta be able to do it on the So it's, there'll never be much competition Now there might be alot of welding shops of that nature. A: Another aspect of it is the fact that everything that is expected to be learned in six weeks or eight weeks or something like that, they try to teach short courses in, try to teach everything in six or eight weeks which you cannot learn. I've been at it now twenty-two years and there's a lot of it that I still don't know. And you, like I was saying to begin with, you learn everyday, cause no two pieces of metal work the same. You have to have �15. that knowledge of how to eliminate the hard places in the piece of steel and make it work the way you want it to work instead of it working you. And people are just not willing to set down. We just got too fast a society today, to want to get inthere and get things done and get it over with or make a die to stamp our a hundred of these. smithing. That's the reason we stay in custom black- Because you don't find any two fireplaces hardly the same size, and you have to proportion everything. The main thing in blacksmithing, irregardless of anything else, you have to see the finished product before you can even start making it. And that's within your mind's eye. You cannot set down and draw it out. You cannot set down and figure it out on a piece of paper, because of the fact you may have to make one set of andirons, for instance, forty-eight inches high. The next pattern you might make exactly like it.. (End of Side 1) Q: This one right here? A: That's one of the machines right there. Q: What is that? A: (Mike) A power hammer, run off of air, electricity or a motor. (Bea) If you bought it, it would take you, of course, now to me, all this stuff comes to me. It doesn't bother me. I can walk out here to look at a machine that I've never seen, turn the switch on it, and I've figured it out in a few minutes just exactly what it makes. I mean, it's no problem. You go to a, Mike can tell you, it's not peanuts to learn to use one. �16. (Mike) No, it's not, because of the fact you have to learn to hand hammer before you can ever. . . (Bea) I'll show you something. show you. I'll do something right here real simple to That looks pretty simple, but I hired twenty-seven people one year; I got one man that could bend the eye, out of twenty-seven. beat that all to pieces trying to get that around there. They'll If I was going to make them, I'd make a little machine to make it, but I could make it quicker. But I could make a machine, that I could make them just (he makes machine sounds) as fast as you can do that, or just as fast as you could press the trigger. That's the reason nobody does it this way. But if somebody come in here and say I want an eye holed banker out there in the gravel, we got to pull x number of tons or we're going to anchor it here on a, in a mine, or put a cable for a car to pull in a certain way, well, then you got to hand make that, cause there's no machine to make it. But if you're going to do this, get that little old machine there, how is makes it, there's nothing to it. (Mike) See, everything we do is free hand. We have no gizmos or anything like that to go by. on the anvil. We do everything just by free, everything's made right Only reason that we have the power hammers or anything like that is eliminating me from hammering that I was doing there a few minutes ago. Because you have what is called a striper, that if you make an anvil or anything like that, you have to have a striper. See now, as he's doing this with the pwer hammer, I would have to be doing that on the anvil. So that eliminates one aspect of my work that I would have to come and help him with. Whereas you can control that, just like you can a hand hammer. But �17. it's harder to learn to control that, than It is to do this there on the anvil. Q: You said this language ya know wasn't written down. What did you do, pass it down by word of mouth? A: (Mike) It's passed down from generation to generation, from master to apprentice, right on down through the ages. Now the way that Dad, well actually Dad didn't learn it. He was shown it. Daniel Boone VI, whom he worked with. . . Q: Taught your father? A: (Mike) Taught Dad this particular language. And he's the sixth generation of the original Daniel Boone. And the original Daniel Boone was a blacksmith and a gunsmith. The best parts of Daniel Boone was not wrote down in history. . He and his father play the anvils, again Q: That was good. Ya'll oughta get, like he's on his anvil and maybe you're on yours, you get to mess around, playing tunes back and forth to each other. A: We do. That particular part of it, the tune is a useful aspect, even though as Dad says, it adds a little flavor to it. But, what it is, you have to, you never really guide your hammer to where you're hitting. where it is going and everything. hold it loose in your hand. You know This is the reason another aspect, that you For when you have to take a little longer to look at that particular piece of metal, then you normally do, you add the tune in �18. there, because you don't want to lose your rythmn. basic rythmn all the time. You hammer with a So, it's like when you're doing a roll and ah. . . (he demonstrates). While he's talking with him, I'll talk with ya'll. What I started to say about the little tune that he adds to that, what he was doing with the tune there was the aspect of like you would play a piano. When you didn't want to lose your rythmn or anything, you have to add that in to it. Or you were going into another song or something, you do a roll of something like that. So the tune is where you play to look over a piece of metal a little longer than you normally have to. So when you go out of it, you know right where you're going to make the next lick. Then, as he was hammering there the last time, he, that's how you basically hammer all day long. You don't add this flavor in everytime that you hammer or anything like that. So even though when he switched off and hit the anvil and everything like that, you're looking it over, but it takes you a shorter length of time to look it over. Now when you're tapering a piece, like he was doing there, the first thing you want to get an even taper all the way down. take you a little longer to look it over. So that's the reason it has to Then the next process that he'll be going through, he'll be turning his back to the anvil. backside of the anvil, where he normally stands. He'll be working to the The only reason that he does that, is to keep from Scarring up a certain portion of the anvil that you normally work on, such as this part here. on the anvil. You can even feel the indentations Then, once he gets through with that, he'll have a chinkapen leaf completed. �19. Q: What kind of work is that? I mean what is it used for? A: You can use it, for instance, right here. You can see in this picture of this table we have, let's see, I don't know if that's a good one or not. Yeah, here's a better one. This particular leaf design that you can add to it. Q: And this is what he's making? A: Right, he's making a chink, what we call a chink-a-pen leaf. It's what the chink-a-pen . leaf looks like when it first conies out in the spring of the year, about so long. particular chandelier. Well, here's another example. Here's one in this You can use them in a lot of aspects. You can use 'em in all types of work on grates, andirons, lighting fixtures of any kind. You can even make candelabra, together. planters out of them by putting several You can make headboards; I don't have apicture with the particular headboard that we used to mend, but I can show you a headboard that we have. Q: All these are samples of your work? A: Right. Everything in here, well, for instance, not a particular leaf, like we're forging over there, but now this door knocker is an oak leaf with an acornon it that you can use for a door knocker. You can use poplar lea£ laurel leaf, anything like that that you want. All you have to do is look at nature and there is a design there that you can work with. I can, if I wanted to, I could take and forge a complete tree, to make for the front of an andiron. legs. Bring it down and make all the root system, that would be your Then you come up with the trunk or; the body, forge all the branches �20 out, come in for that, and make the leaves, such as the oak leaf with the acorns on it. Make all 30f that for your design, your scroll work design. is what you do without a log rest. make a If you want to cut that and forge it, you can job of it for SL door. If you want to make an acorn--or a well, a door knocker, you can make the hinges, you can make an acorn and an oak leaf, or you can make two small oak leaves and put the acorns down through like this, and you've got a thumber latch handle holder. Hickory nuts, make poplar leaf door knockers, poplar leaf wall sconces for candles, things like this. There's no end to the designs you can come up with out of your head, out of nature. You can look at a certain type of rock every once in a while and you get designs in your mind because of the particular shape of the grain or something. here's a fancy pair of andirons. Then, well, Even animals, any type of animal you want to do. Horses, cows, pigs, dogs, anything that you want to do in the way of-- you can make 'em into andirons; well, this particular one was used for a weather vane. We've made several weather vanes, but we don't make 'em that often. But we make all types of animals. Q: Instead of learning all of this, you have to be something like a sculptor and a musician at the same time? A: Right, you work it to where you can, well, for instance, this is the design I came up with out of my head. I just seen, this is the two particular scrolls over here on the bottom of the andiron over there under the legs. I just happen to see them a-laying like that. That's all you need. This is the basic scroll in here. I came up with that design. You just need a particular something that catches your eye in �21 a fancy and-- so it doesn't matter, you cansee anything to come up with a design. This particular fine screen that we're building here, this is one of the few fire places you'll find that is a complete one. It has no straight lines to it. It's all one curvature. So, we had to make up a new type of screen for it, so you have to make up a new design. Q: Oh, you mean you have to go to the home and make, ? A: Right, we make a paste board tip with a -- of the fireplace and then we design the fire screen accordingly. Over there under the legs. I just happen to see them a -laying like that. Q: You were talking about forging a while ago. that? Exactly what do you mean by What is forging? A: Forging is just exactly what you've seen so far. metal and shaping it or wroughting it. It's the heatingof a piece of Wrought iron is a process of handmaking a piece. In other words, when you hand wrought jewelry, >£>r hand wrought gold, you made it by hand, or you shaped it by hand. Wrought iron has two different aspects. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, when they had to make their own metal, instead of mills making their metal, this is where the wrought iron comes in at. Because they would have, say like, three or four men in there that would take and, well, let's say, a six-inch square piece. four foot long. Six inches square, You take that four foot long piece, you put it in the fire, and you may have three men to work on it, and they take sledge hammers, twenty pound sledge hammers, and they start working it down. You can work that particular piece down into 3/8 round, into 1/2 inch square, into 1 / 8 x 1 strip, 1/8 x 1/4, �22 anything that you can, but today, you can make it into that. So this is where your wrought iron aspect comes in. At that particular time, they could not find metal readily, like we can here. All we have to do is call the mill, or we call the wholesaler, and he can ship it up to us or he can buy it. scrap that they could. So they saved every It didn't matter if it was an inch long. weld a lot of these together. They would forge Well, they may forge-forge weld a piece with 1/2 inch square, 5/8 square, 3/8 round, all of this together, and it would be these odd sizes in one long strip. What they do, they kept folding these back, folding them over each other, and making it into one particular size piece that they wanted. This is where also in wrought iron, you have a grain. It's very easy to work with. It's varied grain. But yet they never threw away a particular piece. That's where we also get wrought iron. Now wrought, of course, is the same thing that we're doing now is shaping that particular leaf. it is handmade; it is hand shaped. We call it now free forging because as you can . see, it had no d jes, no molds, no guides to go by. hand hammer. It is hand wrought; You do everything with a You do everything free-hand. When you can do that, of course, you've got forging conquered. There're too many people today that cai call themselves blacksmiths, that have dyes, and molds, and everything. see in our shop is just what we have. What you We don't pretend to hide anything like dyes ;.. i n or molds or anything like that, because we don't need 'em. We forge everything right on the anvil. it's For instance, the horse or that particular credusus over there, made right on the anvil* it's forged. When I made that particular dredusus, I didn't even heat it. cold. That's cold forged. Every bit of that is hammered out t �23 Q: You mean, you hammer it together? A: No it's one solid piece, but it has a three dimensional-a kind of a three dimensional shape to it. You have to round those snakes upso they'll look like a body of a snake, round the staff up. But, of course, from here you can't see it, but I tried to put as much of the underside of the wings in with the feathers. I put the scales on the snakes and the grain of the wood, tried to, in the staff. Of course, that goes, that particular one goes to an optometrist in Raleigh. I've made about three or four of 'em for local doctors. We do work all over the world. We've got work in London, Cairo, and at that particular time we did it, it was the Belgian Congo. We did it for a big rubber plantation. Did a big set of hinges or things like that for a plantation back in the Congo. So, we got work all over the United States, all over the continent of the United States. Q: Well, how do these people find out about you? A: Word of mouth. Also, we've had six exhibits at the Smithsonian Institute and been up there twice to demonstrate, and I have one permanent exhibit now at the Smithsonian, plus I have also an exhibit now at Pasadena Museum of Fine Arts. We used to travel quite a bit to colleges and universities. We'ye stopped that now. Of course, we've been to Boone, and we've been to Western Carolina, East Tennessee State, and Carolina, and North Carolina State, and been to some colleges in Florida, and oh, well, the Smithsonian again. And Craftsman fair in Asheville, Craftsman fair in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, North Carolina State Fair, Dixie Classic Fair in Winston-Salem, and places like that. �24 Dad also did a little of the work on the Williamburg restortation. We've got work now in Abercombie andFitchin New Youk. We've got work in Macy's in New York. We could do a lot more work like this for the big concerns, but when they order, like a hundred and forty-four shovels, that gets ridiculous just to set and make shovels, and pokers, and log forks and brooms all the time. of it. That's the reason we got out We stayed in the custom work all the way. Of course, we still do a lot of w^rk up around Beech Mountain, Hound Ears, Seven Devils, and Invershiel. I've got a lot of work to do for Invershiel. for them. I've got to do a big set of thistled andirons They've got thistles on 'em, with the thistles on 'em, with thistle, leaves and all of this. Thistle fire sets and thistle screens and thistles and more thistles. But we do quite a bit of work up around the Boone area plus all down through Florida, because of the fact of the hurricanes. They got a place to cook on when the power's down, or the heat source. Do quite a bit of work out West and up North, through Michigan and places like that. But it's just mostly by word of mouth, because we have really never advertised at all. Q: What is the permanent display you have in the Smithsonian? A: We really pack it on a cardboard box, but we put it inside of a frame and everything and put cardboard around it and also packing material, all around it, so it won't get bent up or anything. Of course, with the shipping today, you have to pack it real good. Of course most of the pictures that we have in our book are local pictures, some of the things around Spruce Pine, and the area. Q: Sir, a while ago you were talking about the blacksmiths back in the olden days saving the pieces of metal. Is there anything you can do with the metal savings, like tftat over there? Do you sweep it up, and throw it away? �25 A: We sweep it up and throw it away. You could refine it and it is actually metal. It's just the scale off of the metal. It's where the air gets to it and becomes harder than the piece under it and it flakes off. You could do that. it with the filings that come out. it. You could do But if steel ever gets scarce now, you could do But the way they are reprocessing automobiles and other junk things, the railroad, and trainwrecks, and things like this, with the processes that we've got now, there's not much need to save it. A lot of people, the potters do, and get it and grind it, to add iron to their clay to get a special effect on gages and also get special effects on their. . . Q: What? Do you sell this to them? A: No. We give it away. We don't have any use for it. Q: You had a smaller anvil when you were younger, didn't you? A: Oh, yes. It weighs about 10 or 15 Ibs. Yeah, this is the first anvil I ever worked on. That was it. Dad made that for me. It was just made out of a piece of railroad railing. And of course, this is my horseshoeing anvil. It weighs about 200 Ibs. And it's a specialized anvil. blacksmithing anvils. These are your regular As you can see it has two critcher holes, a hardy hole, plus it has part of the face cut off there, where you can turn over and throw your big shoes, like a number 7 or something like that, that you can use it on. Q: Where do you get your anvils. �26. A: They don't make 'em anymore, as far as this type of anvil goes, because these are forged anvils, they are not anvils that are cast. just exactly like we forge that. They are forged That's the reason we have the sound to them. We just pick 'em up, well, for instance, Dad's came from a New York junk yard. And mine came from Virginia; this once came from down on the coast of North Carolina; this one came from Asheville. This is a Hade Buddeman, it was made in New York, the horseshoeing anvil. This one was made in England, the big one. It weighs four hundred and eighty-eight pounds. It was made by Peter Rythin in England. He was one of the most, I guess, most gifted and most famous anvil makers in the world. Q: You know how old that anvil is? A: It could be anywhere between 75 and 125 years old. Any of these anvils could. Now I do not know where Dad's was made, who made it or anything like that, because it has no name on it. Mine, I'm about to figure out it's a Hade Budd manlt has no name on it, but I'm picking up the name gradually off of it. I've got to get it worked and worked over a little and the name might come out on it. I can make out an "H", so I'm going to say that it's a Hade Buddmanaridwas made in New York. But it's a very high carbon steel. And it might have been imported from Sweden originally. It has a tendency to act like Swedish steel, because it has a very, very high keen tone about it. That's the reason I'm working on.hollow log with it. deafen you at times. It can �27. Q: In getting these, do you play them, I mean, for the tone? A: Oh, yes. That's the reason we buy them. Q: What, because of the way they sound? A: Because of their musical quality. Q: Think y'all could go through that one more time? A: Oh yeah, we'll go through it. He's gotta finish up this leaf over here, and then he'll, when he gets finished, we'll run through that again. We may be a little warmer now. Kinda hard to do that the first thing around in the morning. Q: How much would a set of irons like that cost? A: The fancy two over there run about $350 a pair. Of course, we make them from $50 to $1, 500. Well, I use that, for an example, if a person wants a $5,000 set of andirons. I mean, it's just up to the person, individual, what he wants, how fancy it is, what the scroll work and everything is on it and everything. Q: Do you have anything, like in the homes of the Rockefellers, the big ones like that. A: You said the $5, 000, I assume that would mean.. . No, the only work we ever done for Rockefeller would been on the Williamsburg estates, when they were restoring Williamsburg. Like I say, it's very seldom that a person would want a $5,000 set or in that book. I make about a dozen different designs, a lot of those are the pictures of the �28. coffee tables and others the dining table. It's hard to put a time limit 'cause now this leaf run out right real pretty. work as good as others. Sometimes this metal don't I got a piece over here the other day that I made one somebody was, it wouldn't work at all. Now this piece of metal worked exceptionally good here. You can't hardly judge, well, if I thought about the time, I wouldn't even work at it. terms of this fire set here. I mean that's, if I thought of time in I may make three of them handles and the fourth one there, it may take me as long to make the fourth one as it did all three of 'em. So you just don't know. Q: You ever run into any that's just impossible to work with? A: No, when it gets like that, you say, "Lord, break this old stubborn willed piece of stuff here, " and just go right on working. If you walk into a man's shop, I'll tell you how you can tell how godd a mechanic, a machinist, or a blacksmith.Go look in all his corners. If you see anything, if he's got a great big bunch of stuff throwed back, you just go to the next. If he's got a lot of mistakes. A: There's a piece of wrought iron, that he made. That's forge welded together seven times. That's seven separate pieces of metal in one. Q: That's the same idea as probably the different layers? A: No, that's just a name. Wrought iron, now that you can buy, you can only buy it about one place in the United States, what you might say technically still makes it, is the carbon content in it. Wrought iron has really no carbon �29. in it at all. Mild iron which we use, has just a little bit of carbon in it. Q: Do you make any wrought iron fences? Y'all do anything like that? A: Oh yeah, we make all types of gates, and railings and things like this. But we try to stay mainly with the andiron and fire sets, screens, and things like that, because of the fact that there's such a demand for them nowa - days. And other things too. Our wrought iron railings and things like, unless somebody just wants to pay for it, they can pay it at Sears a whole lot cheaper. Q: Wrought iron fence that you would make would probably run several hundred thousand dollars, wouldn 't it? A: No, it will run into the thousands of dollars, but it really depends on how long, how fancy, and things like that. We can do real fancy work or you can do a plain one. But when a person buys or gets one of our railings or porch or anything like that, we put the best in it that we possibly can put. We put all solid stock, there's no, everything is fully welded together, everything, if there's scroll work, we'll, all the scrolls are proportioned, tapered, everything. We put what we call a full graduated tapered scroll on it. In other words, that's this scroll that's on the side of each pair andiron. That's the full graduated tapered scroll. Q: Is this the name put on each piece of. . . ? A: Right, we put our name on every piece that leaves the shop, on every �30. piece really, because of the fact that we, if you want to call it pride, we are proud of everything we do. Plus the fact, there has been a few times in the past that one or two pieces have been sold that didn't have our name on it, but they didn't tell them it wasn't. They have came back, and said that we didn't do such a good job, so if it doesn't have our name on it, it's not ours. A: Unless it might be years ago. A: Well, when you were downtown. He was a foreman in a machine shop, and did wrought iron work too. on it. And at that particular time didn't put his name But this incidence or couple of incidences happened within recent years. But since Dad's been out here. . . A: And a lot of work I done down there, I put my name on it and somebody's done hid Shine that for me. Q: You use sand paper to shine this? A: Yes, all the time. This is what we call a natural finish. Most the time we paint the things when they're going into a fireplace or outside. This is what you'd call a natural wrought iron finish or some type of Swedish finish. Q: Are you making this particular piece for a particular person now? A: No, we make this because this is one of the few things that we can show what a bar of metal can be turned completely into to a finished product. Also, we had these andirons laid out on a table, just in the front there, there are nineteen different pieces. So, if a person, if we tried to demonstrate it at a �31 show, or something that if we were going to talk about it, it's hard to lay out all these nineteen pieces and say, "Well now this is going to be a set of andirons. " They cannot visualize the finished product. But with this we can show exactly how it's done and right to a finished product. Q: You have an apprentice now, or is there someone? A: No, we don't have anybody working with us. Most of, well, one thing, you have to start out fairly young. The public education system today still goes for reading, writing, and arithmetic and in certain ways, that prepares you for life, but it doesn't prepare you for a job. The thing about it is, if they would even in the fifth or sixth grade, set up a learning program for crafts or skills, and let them start learning back at that particular age; it's a lot easier to learn at that age than it is when you get out of college, and say "I'm going to go into it, " because you have gone and formed your opinion and everything like that and it's hard to say, "Now, this is the best way. " Now Dad was real good to me. I do it. He said, "Now this is the way You can find a better, go ahead. " Of course, I started out young and found some better ways, and the one good thing about him, he's always willing to, if I find a short cut or a better way to do it, he's willing to take it and work with it my way instead of his. But today, in the college society that we have, it's what, you might say, not an honor to go into menial tasks. They want to pull or push a pencil. to technical school. Of course, I went on to school. I went But, this is my first love, I've never seen anything else or known anything else, that I'd rather do than this. �32. Q: Do you have a son you're planning on passing this down to? A: I'm not even married. I'm lucky enough to stay single, I think. A: If I'd know? it was going to be this cold, I'd built two fires. A: Wait until we get through. A: You know it's cold, it's cold. A: It won't be that cold when we get through. What this is, this is the language that dates back to the building of King Solomon's temple. We use it today, Dad and I do, as a tune mostly, because I know what I'm going to do and he knows what he's going to do. But basically what it is, as long as he's hammering here on the face of the anvil, I can work withtteside of the piece of metal that I want to and I'm working it right. Then when he hits it on the heel, that tells me to work the right hand side or his right hand side, and how hard he hits the heel, is how hard I hit this piece. Whether he hits the back of the heel or the front of the heel}.'tells.me to work high or low on it. Then when he switches over and hits the horn, that tells me to work on his left side. How hard he hits the horn is how hard I hit this. Whether he hits the back or the front of the horn, tells me also whether to work on it high or low. Then if he sees a high spot I don't happen to see, due to the different viewpoints of light that you have, he will reach in with his hammer and tap that. How hard he hits that with his hammer is how hard I back him up. Now if he reaches in there the second time immediately, I don't hit that spot, because he can take that out himself. That's the reason when he keeps tapping in there, I don't touch that spot. I go ahead and hammer all around it, even though it looks like I may hit his hammer. �33. But when he starts going back and forth on the horn of the anvil, that tells me to draw it longer all the time. And all of this is made up a four year apprenticeship that a person learns the basics of hammering, but he works from one end of the anvil to the other. And all this language goes on, whether he's on the horn or the heelpart of your anvil, or anything like that. Then after that four years, you switch to this side of the anvil, and spend six years with the master on the same anvil. After that you go to a? entirely different anvil, different forge, and work on separate things yourself. And after you work on separate things yourself for four more years, you can become a master blacksmith, and then you can do whatever you want to. You should have learned enough to where you can go into your own business. I don't have that much more to say, except Dad learned his through Daniel Boone VI, and then he got it down from the original Daniel. called a logging blacksmith. He was what you He made all types, shoes for oxen, mules. He did single tree work, all types of wedges, things that pertained mainly to end of sawmilling and that type of thing. Then, of course, like I say now, we do it mostly to the tune. I don't pay much attention to what he's, but is basically the way you can learn blacksmithing, the way, a special way that you can pick up blacksmithing, even though there's not, this will teach you the hammering portion of blacksmithing, this does not teach you anything about tempering, formula for tempering, formulas for the study of carbon and steel, the molecular structure of steel, the how to temper, the direction of temper, how they interlock molecules, how to forge weld, how to jump pieces together, how to sweat pieces together. There's such a wide variation that �34. you have to learn, within this 16 year period that you put in, that it's not all spent right on the anvil, all of it hammer. You have a classroom that you go through, just like these you go through high school, or any other school, because this is all part of blacksmithing. If you don't know how to forge weld, there's no blacksmithing to it, because it's all. . . You have to have certain instances that you have to forge weld pieces together, you can't weld in any other way. Then you got to know how to make a fire, fix a fire, different types of fire, whether it's a welding fire, whether it's a heat fire, or whether it's a fire for sharpening steel, a fire that's going to last one day or two days or three days. All this is a part of it. You've got to know how to make tongs, to handle your steel. You've got to know how to make your own personal hammers, whether it's a shop hammer or specialized hammers, such as horse shoeing tools, whether it's claw hammers or sledge hammers or you have to know how to punch eyes, you have to know how to make bits, you have to kno'i? how to forge weld together a piece that has holes in the center and keep the hole open so that it doesn't fill up. You have to know what a back weld is, you have to know what a light weld is, you have to know what a funnel weld is. There's so much in blacksmithing that you have to learn besides hammering. We've got three of the oldest ancient arts here that's anywhere in the world or know in the world. One of 'em, well, first of all, there's the pottery which came first, the art of making clay into pots; then there came blacksmithing, then came marketry. Marketry is the art of inlaying wood into itself, into either pictures or tables or something like that. It dates back to the ancient Egyptian times. Of course, this dates on back to the �35. Iron Age. Of course, the pottery, well, that comes from the ground, and that's as old as the earth, one of the first discovered. So, we're one of the few places that have three of the oldest ancient arts. Q: Is all this your family, the ones of you.. . ? A: No, they're just people that we rent or lease our building. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bea and Mike Hensley, March 24, 1973 Description An account of the resource In this interview father and son, Bea and Mike Hensley, talk about their occupation of blacksmithing. Bea and Mike explain different processes they used in their craft along with how they both got into the trade. They talk about their shop in Spruce Pine, North Carolina and then demonstrate how to forge metal and the way anvil language works. Mike and Bea also describe demonstrations they have done for universities and permanent displays they have in the Smithsonian. As a surprising piece of information, Daniel Boone passed on the trade that eventually both Bea and Mike learned through his ancestors. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harmon, Lester and Brinkley, Bill Hensley, Bea and Mike Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/24/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 35 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape44-45_Bea&MikeHensley_1973_03_24M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Spruce Pine, NC Subject The topic of the resource Blacksmithing--North Carolina--Spruce Pine anvi language anvil blacksmith Daniel Boone Smithsonian