1 50 9 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e507edc566d464727448747cc078c15a.pdf da7fe3cec23f43afb7d68503f79e8c03 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Eliot White, E-5, 2nd class Petty Officer U.S. Navy 2000s Iraq War October 14, 2012 Thomas Di Tomasso: It is October 14, 2012. We are in Boone, NC, in our house at 3245, Highway 421 North. I am interviewing Eliot White, currently a sophomore at Appalachian State University. I am Thomas Di Tomasso a senior at Appalachian State University majoring in International Criminal Justice. White: Freshmen. Di Tomasso: Oh my bad freshmen. Di Tomasso: And we will begin the oral history interview now. Di Tomasso: To start off where were you born and raised? Eliot White: I was born in Sarapul, Russia and I was raised at an orphanage until the age of nine, adopted at age ten. Then came to Charlotte, North Carolina. Di Tomasso: All right, when and why did you choose to join the military? White: I was in a bad spot, where I was living at, at the time and pretty much looked at it as my way out. Di Tomasso: What rank did you eventually reach? White: The highest rank that I reached E-5 Second Class Petty Officer. Di Tomasso: Do you have any family history of being in the military? White: Biological family, not that I know of. Adopted family my grandfather, actually both my grandfather’s, one served in World War 2 the other was in the Korean War. Di Tomasso: Ok, what experience or schools, or experiences or schools did you attend in your initial entry phase in the military? White: Initial entry phase outside of boot camp, ITA School in Pensacola, Florida and that’s about it. Di Tomasso: What is ITA school? White: Information Systems (…) technical school. 1 �Di Tomasso: So, where were you assigned after your initial entry phase? White: After Pensacola I was assigned to Operational Naval Intelligence Washington, DC. Di Tomasso: Can you tell me specifically what your job was? White: In DC my job was to monitor and (…..) pretty much write up, send out, receive, and correct military messages that went through HBSS Systems (…) I mean(………) yea at a basic level that’s pretty much what it was, I mean honestly all it was incoming and outgoing traffic messages. Di Tomasso: Ok ,how did your family react to you being in the military? White: My parents thought it was a good idea for me, seeing as I wasn’t really doing too well on my own. They thought it would help me with my (…) I guess growing in, growing up experiences and stuff. Di Tomasso: Were you ever deployed, how many times and where were you deployed? White: I was deployed once, [unclear]. Our headquarter deployment was in Bahrain, which is in the middle east, is a small base in Jafar southwest of Saudi Arabia, we did all our OPS, things of that habit there. Di Tomasso: What year was that? White: That was September 2010. Di Tomasso: Ok, did you ever experience any combat while you were deployed? White: I did, twice. Di Tomasso: Now, can you tell me about any of your combat experiences? White: I mean the best way for me to put it is a high paced, hectic, a lot of things going on at one time. Bullets flying past you, things exploding, live ammo being used. I mean it was no joke, it was, It was pretty much high tension. You make one mistake somebody could go down. Di Tomasso: Is there any specific situations that you could tell me about you were in, certain battles or experiences? White: (White shakes head) 2 �Di Tomasso: All right, so what can you tell me about the culture of the area you were deployed? White: Culture was pretty much, I mean essentially it was ninety nine percent Muslim, and they had, there were a lot of Indian immigrants, a lot of Asian pacific immigrants, I mean (…) it was very highly concentrated Muslim area basically. This is kind of hard to describe seeing as it was a big, mainly looked down upon females. Females were pretty much considered as baby meals, essentially. Best way to put it other than that. Di Tomasso: Did you have any females in your squad or unit? White: (Coughs) No we did not. (Coughs) Di Tomasso: Did you see how any American females; did you see them interact with any of them? White: It (...) The way it was best put to them, and to us, as far as them going into town and what not, was keep interaction between female parties and the locals was to a minimum, absolute minimum. Their dress had to be absolutely monitored, as in collared shirt, long sleeves, long pants. They weren’t allowed to wear you know short skirts, things like that nature. A lot of times that wouldn’t be allowed off base, unless a male individual was with them, for security and safety reasons, but other than that. Di Tomasso: How did you progress throughout your military career? White: Just like any other individual, I worked hard, with being in the Navy, or the Navy progression system basically from E1, E3 its like wait your time, nine months in-between. From E3 to E4 its a six month wait, you take a navy wide exam, you had to score a certain score on the exam and what not to be considered for advancement. From E4 to E5 its one year, once again you take an exam, and (...) I did what I had to. Di Tomasso: So you made your way from E1 to E5? White: E1 to E5 in exactly three years. Di Tomasso: Is that considered a short period of time? White: That’s extremely short. (Chuckles) Most individuals won’t, it takes on average about five to six years to go from E1 to E5. 3 �Di Tomasso: So why do you think that you were able to do this in that short amount of time? White: I mean allot of it had to do with experience. (…) A lot of Navy is based on ships, and short commands, being with my situation being, you know seeing combat and being out there first hand actually witnessing the things that they were being taught. Just a lot easier for me to grasp information, and just go back and regurgitate it on the test. Di Tomasso: What can you say about your leadership, officers specifically that you interacted with, I mean how do you feel? White: Some of the greatest people I’ve ever met. I mean those guys would do anything for all of us. I mean it was pretty much, honestly it was like a little brotherhood, I mean every single one of us would take a bullet for the other, for the next person next to them, because we knew that if they messed up that could be my life on the line, if I messed up it could be there life on the line. Di Tomasso: So you had respect, I mean the officers were competent in their jobs? White: The officer’s knew exactly what they were doing; if there was any question that it shouldn’t have been done they wouldn’t do it. I mean it would stop right there immediately. If orders were given out, and they weren’t sure about the order’s they would clarify immediately. They wouldn’t wait and see it through before finding out there was a mistake. But other than that it was a great group of people. Di Tomasso: What problems did you see in your time in the military, with the way the structure and organization, and how everything was run? White: The biggest, my biggest issue was (….) personal lack of motivation, because a lot of individuals are younger, you know under twenty-three. It’s hard to control them, seeing as they just, they see what’s right but they don’t always see what’s good. It’s actually, what I’m saying is they knew what they believed is right to them, but they don’t follow order’s the way they sup post to. And plus it being very high technology based society now a days, a lot of them just want to go by what every body else says. You know, what they see on the Internet, or they see on the news, they don’t actually want to sit down and research the information. Di Tomasso: How did you get through difficult times while you were in the military? White: it’s going to be slightly weird but the best way to put it is music. I mean, whenever, you know something absolutely off the wall, tragic happened, let’s say lost we a teammate or you know, we saw a bombing run of a civilian village. I just put my headphones in, zone everything out, and just get, get through it, easiest way to put it. 4 �Di Tomasso: What did you see of the other branches of the military Army, Marine Corps, maybe Coast Guard, and how did you interact with them? White: I saw a lot of Marine’s, a lot of Air force, some Army, and a few Coast Guard. A lot of the Marine’s, they were pretty much a security detail, I mean Master at Arms, K9 Units. We didn’t really interact very much with them. It was more of, off the work schedule, you know barracks parties, or you see them out in town sometimes, play basketball at the gym, see them at the library. But other than that we never really, I mean there was no true interaction within the branches. Di Tomasso: So when and why did you decided to get out? White: It was my, my four year contract was, (…) pretty much out. April of 2012 I got out decide to call the G. I. Bill, and go to school. Di Tomasso: So how do you feel with the political environment that we’re in right now, how do you feel, do you feel politicians care about the military, and how do you feel they affected you as far as when you were deployed, and stuff like that? White: Honestly (…) it (…) I mean (…) that’s a tough question, because I was always you know taught and trained from the get go in the military to follow orders regardless. I mean unless the orders were absolutely wrong or completely illegal, just follow them. So I never really, quite paid attention to the political side of the whole thing, not until I was about E4, E5 you know reached the higher ranks that’s when you sit down you really, you know you have people who your in charge of, and people reporting to you on a daily basis, that’s when the political side of it really hits you. The way I perceived the whole, you know the U.S. government dealing with the troops overseas and bringing them home and this and that, it was interesting, because a lot of times It didn’t really matter who left or who stayed it was just more about numbers, it was about how many people had gone, or how many people gone home. It was, no prejudice to whether, you know people had families, or people had been there for a certain period of time, and you had people who had just got there, to come home or not. So I mean it was really chaotic, but at the same time, I mean it was pretty much, it was an organized madness essentially. Di Tomasso: So, you and I have talked about this before, military life being very high paced. How did you transition, to the civilian world after getting out of the Navy? White: Honestly, I mean I’m still trying to kind of, get used to the whole civilian sector of it, because it is very (….) slow per say, I mean nothing really goes on. I mean I don’t see loud noises going off here and there, and every once in awhile I’ll get flashbacks, I’ll just kind of like sit there and just zone out (…) but other than that I mean the transitions pretty much on going. It’s probably going take at least some 5 �time you know in the future, to at least fully grasp the idea that, hey I’m not in the military completely, I don’t got to do the same stuff as I used to. Di Tomasso: Is there anything specifically you would say you took away from your military experience? White: By far the best trait is discipline. I mean before I went in the military and what not, I was always one of those high going you know or fast paced individuals. I just wanted to do something, I just wanted to go out there you know whether it’s play sports, or just hang out with friends, and party or whatever I just wanted to do something. Getting out in the military it’s more of, you know I got this to do, I got to do this, I got to do that, let me take care of that first, and then whatever time I have left you know enjoy. But yea I mean the biggest is probably discipline. Di Tomasso: Is there anything else you’d like to add to your military experience or anything else you would like to talk about that we may have not covered? White: That’s pretty much it. Di Tomasso: I appreciate your time, and that concludes the interview. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/57144363667db6896433c4bc8c491657.mp3 12bb42e12e787cdfd4b840131475219b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 82.5 KB 16.9 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Navy Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) E-5, 2nd Class Petty Officer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Di Tomasso; Thomas White; Eliot Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Di Tomasso, Thomas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. White, Eliot Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 6 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:14:50 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code fb967bbc7927ba251ba97f7047d00a4e 12bb42e12e787cdfd4b840131475219b Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_White_Eliot_20121014_transcript_M 5018_White_Eliot_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eliot White [October 14, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Di Tomasso, Thomas White, Eliot Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Eliot White, born in Russia but adopted by American parents, entered the US Navy before starting college. After basic training he went to ITA School and participated in Operation Naval Intelligence working in Washington DC. He was eventually deployed to Bahrain and saw combat a couple of times. He describes his combat experience as "very hectic" and music was the only thing that could calm him after his difficult experiences. Subject The topic of the resource White, Eliot Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Bahrain E5 Eliot White Iraq War ITA School Operation Naval Intelligence Russia US Navy Washington DC https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/24e044f8a7054f4880670ac96560a93a.mp3 e86dfe73e20164198f74f058dac2df27 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/37b2e2496dc83e131e649c29ae63ad23.txt c717d4620ce1bc488733705f1a3d0753 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Thomas, Richard L. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. None Interview Date None Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:03 File name 2013_063_Thomas_RichardL_interview None Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard L. Thomas, undated Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thomas, Richard L. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. None Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Description An account of the resource Richard L. Thomas enlisted in the US Navy in 1953 and served in the Korean War. He was trained to work in the Combat Info Center where a lot of the work was focused on avoiding submarines. Subject The topic of the resource Thomas, Richard L. Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews 1953 Combat Info Center (CIC) Cuba Guantanamo Bay Korean War Lieutenant patriotism Richard L. Thomas submarine US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/016ad9b4879f4bba6acb5247cbb5dcb2.pdf 3358cf76746340071551dc9b982fd3fb PDF Text Text Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Transcript of Oral History Interview with Ken Shabhaz. March 13th, 2011 Greensboro, NC Borowicz: So, you were in the Air Force, correct? Shabhaz: Yes, I was in the Air Force from 1968 to 1973. Borowicz: Okay, just for the record, we're interviewing Ken Shabhaz. It's March 13 1\ and we're in his office in Greensboro, NC. As he stated, he was in the Air Force from 1968 to 1973. Shabhaz: Yes, '68 to '73. Borowicz: So, roughly, the end of the Vietnam war era? Shabhaz: Exactly. Borowicz: Okay, were you drafted or did you enlist? Shabhaz: I had four draft notices, and went with the Air Force. Borowicz: So, weren't drafted by the Air Force? Shabhaz: Well, the army drafts you, but I was trying to get into the Navy. The Air Force had openings first, so I ended up in the Air Force. Borowicz: Okay. Shabhaz: My two armed guards took me to my last physical, or else they would have put me in the Marines. Borowicz: Oh yeah, I would have gone for the Navy as well. Where was the farthest you were stationed from home? Shabhaz: The farthest from home was Sacramento. Borowicz: So, that was nice that you got to stay in the country. Shabhaz: I got to stay in the country in the middle of the Vietnam war, so it was great. Borowicz: What were your duties during that time? I know you dealt with money and payroll at some point. Shabhaz: Well, at first they tried to make a navigator of me, then a pilot out of me, but they were unsuccessful there, so I ended up a supply officer. I was stationed at Montgomery, Alabama for most of my tour, where I was the base supply officer. Borowicz: What did that entail? Shabhaz: Well, the base supply officer was in charge of anything that was expendable, so all the parts and pieces that go on at an Air Force base, other that the furniture and equipment, I was responsible for. Borowicz: So, what kind of rank do you get for that? Shabhaz: Well, in the Air Force, it was a matter of so long of a period of time, so when I went in, I was a Second Lieutenant. I did the 90 day "wonder crash course" at San Antonio. Borowicz: What's that? Shabhaz: Well, that's the basic training for officers. Officers have a couple of routes. Sometimes, folks are in ROTC or some other activity, but otherwise, they have a basic training that's 90 days, and you come out a Second Lieutenant. That' s the route I ended up going, in the middle of winter, in San Antonio, Texas. Borowicz: Had you already had a college degree before that? �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Shabhaz: Yes. Generally, at that point you had to have a college degree, so I had already graduated. And, as I said, I already had a couple of draft notices, so I was picking and choosing where I was going to end up. Borowicz: I remember you telling me a story when I think you were in charge of payroll or something ....... when you counted money so long one day, ---Shabhaz: Well, yeah. A lot of interesting things happened. I ended up with special duty and we had to give a surprise cash count, and it was the day they did payroll at the finance office. I was a finance officer, so they wanted me to go in there and count the money. Generally, at that time, they paid most of the military in cash. So, there was seven million dollars in cash in small denominations, that me and two other NCO ' s counted for three hours, and sat there and thumbed through cash. Borowicz: Wow! That's a lot of cash. I had remembered that you said your fingers turned green after awhile. Shabhaz: Yeah, fingers and hands turned green from handling all that money, and besides that, we had a lot of angry people waiting for their paychecks. Borowicz: Now, did you have to go through the regular boot camp as well, for regular training? Shabhaz: No, no training for the officers was kind of the same, similar objectives as the basic training of the enlisted but, how do I say this, kind of more book learning kind of stuff rather that the physical stuff. The Air Force was by far one of the better ones to choose, at that time anyway. Borowicz: So, more of classes than training? Shabhaz: Yeah, classrooms and more of management type things, and how the Air Force and the military is structured. It' s kind of general information. It kept us kind ofbusy. On the drill pad, we spent one or two hours a day. That was always lots of fun. Borowicz: That's one of the things I never understood, the formation drillings. It doesn' t seem to -----Shabhaz: Well, the idea there is basically discipline. Borowicz: Obedience? Shabhaz: Yeah, it's a kind of discipline working as a unit. As officers, we took turns leading the group. Ifthis was an enlisted group, they' d never be leading the group, so we ended up taking turns to lead and march a whole squad. I don't remember how many guys were in it but, when you turned around and saw a lot of people coming at you, right on your heels. Borowicz: So, you said this was in San Antonio? Shabhaz: San Antonio is where I started my basic training. That was 90 days there, then I was scheduled to go into navigator school, which was in Sacramento. So, they gave me a couple of weeks off. I went home for a week or so, and then drove from Detroit to Sacramento and reported out there for navigating school. Borowicz: And you were stationed on Sacramento for most of the war? Shabhaz: No. I spent about nine months there, and didn' t pass navigation school, so I ended up out of navigator school. Then they wanted to send me to pilot school, from the back seat of the F-4 to the front seat of the F-4. I said, "No thanks", and that' s when they decided to send me to Montgomery, Alabama, to be the base supply officer there. �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Borowicz: What did that entail? Were there a lot of people involved in the war effort in Montgomery, because I feel that most ofthe stuff would be on the West Coast? Shabhaz: Yeah, Montgomery, Alabama was a cushy job to get in the middle of Viet Nam. It was one base, one command. It was the Air War College, basically officers in the Air Force that were the rank of Major, that wanted to become Leutenent or higher, then they basically spent six to nine months there at Maxwell Air Force base to get their master's degree. Most of them ended up getting their master's degree in business administration. So we really didn't have any airplanes assigned to our base, there was over 800 officers there when I got on the base. I had to share my BOQ room for the first two weeks with a one star general cause that was the lowest rank they could find for me to share a room with. So it was a rather unusual place to be. I ended up being in charge of 70 personnel, most of them civilians at that base because once again it wasn;t a heavy war kind of effort. So it was not a bad place to spend the next three years. Borowicz: Doesn't sound bad at all. Shabhaz: No it wasn't, I was most fortunate. I ended up, they sent me to Supply School in Denver, Colorado in the peak of ski season, I'm not a skier but I ended up being the designated driver when we went to the ski resort. So that was an interesting three months there. And shortly after returning from that Linda [his wife] and I got married in april of 1970. Borowicz: Did you meet her in college before? Shabhaz: Yeah, we had met in college and we were engaged. Part of it when you're looking at Vietnam is you're uncertain of where you're going to end up at. But when it looked like I was going to end up at Montgomery, Alabama we decided to get married. Borowicz: So I assume you guys were able to keep in touch pretty well since you were here. Shabhaz: Oh yeah Borowicz: And with your parents and everything? Shabhaz: Yeah, I mean writing. Back then most of it was still written communication, cause telephone was too expensive and the Internet hadn 't come around yet. Borowicz: Yeah no cell phones or anything yet. Shabhaz: No, no cell phones just yet. Borowicz: So most of the stuff, like the supplies, you did on the base, was that for food and uniforms? Like suppliesShabhaz: It covered everything. It covered mechanical parts although we did have a large fleet of aircraft assigned to the base, it was a popular place to get your aircraft repaired. The Air National Guard for example, was real big back then in the South, so some planes would be brought in from out lying areas, because we had the capacity to repair them. Borowicz: I didn't know the National or State Guard had planes. Shabhaz: Oh yeah, the National Guard had planes, cause we were sitting at that time in the South, and a lot of the concern was from Cuba and other places as well. It was a popular place to bring a broken airplane, because we had two of the best golf courses in the country. So, if you had to spend a couple of days in one place, you could always play golf. Borowicz: Yeah, that sounds really nice. What was the food like on the base? �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Shabhaz: The food, well, for an officer. . .I generally ate at the officer' s club, which was great. It was like going to Greensboro ' s Country Club and having dinner all the time. Borowicz: So, you said the people there were one star generals or above? Shabhaz: Well, they were majors or higher, as far as the officers were concerned. Borowicz: So, most people there were officers? Shabhaz: Well, the majority of the military were officers, and there were a lot of civilians as well. Most of the running of the base was done by civilians. I'm not sure what our population mix was, but we probably only had 25 to 30% military, it was mostly civilians. Then, the air college itself had a lot of military itself, but once again, it was major rank or above. That's what all the Generals were around for, it was basically the teaching. They teach classes, they' d come in and teach maybe a six week period, and then move on to something else. That's why the officers quarters ended up with a lot of Generals in them. Then, once Linda and I got married, we basically moved off base, that' s what we did. So, I had to learn to eat her cooking. Borowicz: You were stationed there for the rest of your service. Shabhaz: Yes, ended up there for three and a half years, so was fortunate that part of the program they offered on the base was from Auburn University, so I signed up for that as well, and ended up taking some of my classes on base and off base. I had so much to do, but managed to go to school full-time and be in the military. Borowicz: Sound like a busy schedule. Shabhaz: It worked out very well. In fact, when the war started to wind down, they wanted to give me an early out, but I said "You can't, I still have a semester left". And at Maxwell, at that point, once again, it was the base that ended up with the prisoners of war, you know, the POW' s, the one' s that finally got released after the war, because once again, it had so many amenities, it was pretty much like a country club. Borowicz: Did you come into contact with any of them, or no? Shabhaz: No. Borowicz: Just a different part of the base? Shabhaz: No, well that happened just after I had gotten out. The war was just ending when I was getting out, and the prisoner release was three to four months after that. Borowicz: So, you said it was a voluntary leave at the end? Shabhaz: Yeah. Borowicz: Just stuck around and got your education? Shabhaz: Right Borowicz: What did you get your degree in from Auburn, did you say? Shabhaz: I ended up with my Masters Degree in Economics, basically. I had gotten my Bachelors Degree from Aquinas College in Business and Accounting, so what they offered was a government administration or business administration kind of classes, so I took those. Borowicz: And you said that, or like when you were released, I guess released was a bad word ... Shabhaz: No, that' s not a bad word. Borowicz: Well, when you were done--Shabhaz: Finished the tour �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Borowicz: So, when you finished the tour, was it hard for you to go from that kind of life to civilian life, or was it like you already said, you were living offthe base with your wife? Shabhaz: No, the hard part at the time, was that there were a lot of other folks getting out of the military at that time, so it was a job situation. So, we spent the next four months after we got out of the military, traveling around doing job interviews. I got out in, what was it, December, and so we'd find somebody to pay room and board to for a night or two, and we'd travel the South in the middle of winter doing job interviews and ended up in Greensboro, a lot by chance. Borowicz: Well, I'm glad you're here. Shabhaz: Thank-you. Borowicz: Do you still have any close friendships with anyone you served with? Do you keep in contact with anyone? Shabhaz: Well, there was one individual that turned out to be most unusual. I don't know if you remember Father Ken Boyack? Borowicz: No. Shabhaz: He was a Paulist priest, and it turned out that he was stationed in the military at the same time. He was in a different section of the supply area at the same time, in the equipment area, the heavier items. But, it turned out that he and I kind of knew each other, you know, we socialized, but then I don't know, what was it, ten, fifteen years later, he shows up at St. Paul's Catholic Church as a priest. Borowicz: Wow, was he a chaplain in the service? Shabhaz: No, he was just another supply officer in the service, and he decided to become a priest, after or during his service, I'm not sure. I'm not too sure of the situation. But, he's the only one from military service days I've ever kept up with. Borowicz: Where's he at now? Shabhaz: He's up in D.C. We talk when he's down here. We get Christmas cards, and do that kind of stuff. He's in charge of a lot of their outreach programs .... Borowicz: Are you in any Veteran's organization of any type? Shabhaz: No, not really. The Boy Scouts is the closest thing I guess, but I've not maintained any kind of interest in that. Borowicz: Well, I think that's just about it. Thank you so much for your interview tonight. Shabhaz: You're welcome, it was a pleasure. Thank you Paul. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4cee11b31bc5557d53b378fd22c140e6.mp3 037152c569a2e485cee56bbf5cb58bd4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Shabhaz, Ken Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Borowicz, Paul Interview Date 3/13/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:17:18 File name 2013_063_Shahbaz_Ken_interview 2013_063_Shabhaz_Ken_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Shabhaz, 13 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Borowicz, Paul Shabhaz, Ken Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Shabhaz, Ken Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Ken Shabhaz recounts his service in the Air Force as a base supply officer in Montgomery, Alabama. He served for a few years in the Vietnam War and then went back to school for Economics. He never was stationed outside the United States but was moved around to several different cities. Air Force base supply officer Ken Boyack Ken Shabhaz Lieutenant Montgomery National Guard POW US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/80a567b50a51ed95806e7d6193774e48.pdf 60894303b13ad617ee39c00d7bc7d102 PDF Text Text Oral History Project Interview Conducted By: Bradley McMahan Interviewee: Michael McMahan-US Navy Veteran March 11, 2011 Interview Transcript Bradley- Ok Uncle Michael so this is an interview for Dr. Judkin Browning's American Military History class and it's being taken place in Black Mountain, NC and I'm Bradley McMahan and his is my uncle Michael McMahan and Uncle Michael when and where were you born? Michael-! was born in 1951 in Asheville, NC Bradley- What branch of the service were you in? Michael- I was in the Navy Bradley- What was your rank while in the Navy? Michael-My fmal rank was aviation ordinance, third class. Bradley- Where all did you go on duty? Michael- I went into boot camp in Orlando, FL , from there I went to ordinance school in Jacksonville, FL, from the there, I went to Alameda, CA, which was my home port during my first cruise I went from Alameda to Hawaii to the Philippines to Hong Kong to Japan and then back to CA, back to Alameda. Then on my second cruise I went to San Diego and to San Diego to further train and I went to again Hawaii, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Singapore and then finally Bremerton, WA. Bradley- And what was your specific duty usually while on your cruises? Michael- During my first cruise I built bombs from 250 pounds up to 2000 bombs to load on the planes Bradley-Ok and are you considered by the Veterans Administration a Vietnam Veteran or just ... Michael- A Vietnam Veteran yes Bradley- And did you join the Navy because it was your choice or were you drafted? Michael- It was my choice �Bradley- And where were you living at the time you enlisted? Michael- In Black Mountain Bradley- What was your driving factor behind it? Michael- During that time I was ... restless, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I was attending Asheville Buncombe Tech College. During that time I was going ok where is my life going. I grew up listening to the stories of my uncles, my father's about all the great places they had seen in the military and that really appealed to me. Bradley- And what made you choose the Navy? Michael- You get to see the world. And fortunately I didn't realize the world was 75% water at that time. Bradley- What was it like when you first joined, coming from such a small town in Black Mountain, you really were on the whole other side of the world? Michael- Your first experience is always boot camp which is ... quite a bit different from waking up to your mother asking you to get up nicely ... ! saw a lot of things I never thought I would see. I was excited. Jacksonville, FL, I had only seen the ocean a couple of times before that and California I had only seen it in the movies. So it was a great time, it was very exciting. Bradley- Did you enjoy boot camp or is it ... Michael-No way Bradley-Or is it pretty terrible? Michael- Well you adapt Bradley- Did you ever regret your decision while in boot camp? Michael- Oh several times ... several times Bradley- What do you remember about specifically about boot camp? Michael- Uh the rigid structure, the numbness of time going by so slowly, of having to pause for toothpaste, for a tooth brush, I uh sometimes it was the brutality of people getting slapped in the heads with clipboards and different things, so yes it was not like around where I grew up. Bradley-What made you finally pull through it? Michael- Pull through it. .. time ... and that... Bradley-You just get used to it after a while? Michael- You get used to it. Bradley- I've heard you say before you'd watched a lot of John Wayne movies and wanted to go to Vietnam. Did they talk about Vietnam much in boot camp or was it just. .. �Michael-No, no they did not talk a lot about Vietnam ... in boot camp a lot of that is just getting your mind right. Bradley- So after you went to boot camp, your first assignment was where? Michael- I went to Jacksonville, FL for aviation ordinance school, that's where I learned how to build bombs and missiles ... and how to work both and how to do trouble shooting on weapons systems. Bradley- And then from there it was off to the west coast? Michael- From there I was transferred to the USS Ranger ... which was an aircraft carrier, which had more people on the ship when it was fully loaded than my hometown. Bradley- So after you went to the USS Ranger, did you enjoy your ... bomb making or.. ? Michael- Well my first duty on the Ranger was mess cooking which in the Navy unless you're ranked is what you do. That's where you cooked. I told you the story of meeting your Aunt Janelle. When I met her at night my job was cracking 1200 eggs ... scramble eggs. Uh ... the bomb we when out to sea .. .it was bomb making was assembly process it was just like working a assembly line, screwing things together. And was it enjoyable? No it was work. You worked twelve, thirteen, fourteen hours and then you would probably stand four hours other duties. Bradley- When you go on leave, did you ever get a chance to come back to Black Mountain much, or were you solely on the West Coast? Michael- I got to come home uh ... twice ... twice ... maybe three times. In the military you get 30 days leave ... so I got to come home before I went to California and then I got to come home before I was going to head to Vietnam the second time Bradley- Did you ever get home sick at all on the west coast? Michael- Uh ... yes ... yes ..l met your Aunt Janelle. You miss family. You know uh people grow up while you're gone. Bradley- Once you ... got out to sea did you find pretty monotonous out on the sea. Did you ever get really bored out there? Michael- You got uh ... again on my first I was down below decks, I might not see .. .l was working days down below, I wouldn't see sunlight twenty days, twenty five days. So I stayed pretty busy when you got time all you want to do is eat and sleep. Umm but uh in down time, you got bored. It's not today ... you've got all the video games, you got all those things, there isn't all that type of entertainment. You read a ton of books. You'd stand in lines in read books. You'd stand in line to eat. You stood in line to do everything. Bradley- So after you got back off your first cruise, you were wanting to get a Vietnam assignment? �Michael - I had been, ever since I had gone on the Ranger, about every couple of months, I would put in for Vietnam land duty or be stationed. I primarily wanted to be a door gunner on a helicopter. Bradley- What was the major changing force and did that happen or. .. ? Michael- Well, I got my orders, I was put to Cameron Bay, Vietnam ... transferred off the Ranger, went port for survival school at North Island and San Diego, CA for survival school. At that time Nixon started pulling troops out of Vietnam and my orders got cancelled, so I stayed in San Diego for about a month and then I got orders to report aboard the USS Enterprise, which is a nuclear carrier. Bradley- Now were you disappointed that you didn't get your Vietnam assignment? Michael - Absolutely Bradley- And what appealed to you so much about Vietnam? Michael- To me, John Wayne movies Bradley- So none of the bad news reports and anything that ever came back didn't scare you at all or phase you? Michael- They actually enticed me. Bradley- So once you got on the Enterprise, did you find that more enjoyable than the Ranger? Michael - Uh my duties changed . . .! stayed in the bomb division I worked in the missile division .. . ! worked on the flight deck. So I did get fresh air .. . sunshine. That was more enjoyable, yes. Bradley- Did everybody still talk about Vietnam much while you were on the Enterprise and if maybe you guys would eventually get to go, or did you pretty much accept that your orders had changed? Michael - I pretty much accepted that. Bradley- You said when the Enterprise sailed out you went through the pickets, what was that like? Did you feel anything? Were you angry at the people that were trying to do it or ... ? Michael - It was odd feeling because a lot of them were my age. At the time you were in San Francisco, Almeda was right off San Francisco and you would go down town and you would wear your uniform and people would take and there would be protests ... and you were like ok I'm going overseas and there' s a missing piece. At that time it was angry and were pulling out, just watching people, the helicopters would hover over the protests little boats and flood them so they couldn't stop us from leaving. Now I look back at it and I have mixed emotions. They were right about a lot of things, the protesters were. A lot of boys died needlessly there. Bradley- Did you know anybody personally that had gone to Vietnam and gotten killed from Black Mountain, or that you had met, or Naval buddies? �Michael - Let's see did I know anybody ... personally that went to Vietnam. Yes I knew some people that went to Vietnam and you know that came back and talked about the good stuff and then they had uniforms, they looked sharp, all this type of thing, they talked about all their adventures . .. but there were several from Black Mountain killed. Bradley- So when you were on the Enterprise, what was the most eye opening experience you had? Michael- .. .1 was on the flight deck, there was a F-4 coming in with damage and it got about two hundred yards from the ship and exploded ... another two hundred yards and it had landed on the ship, I would have been toast. Bradley- Was that the first casualty on your boat or had you seen them hit the water before that? Michael - I had seen right when I went on my first cruise, I saw an airplane, he came in, the tail hook broke, plane went in the water, it rolled, the pilots ejected and broke their necks .. .I also saw I guess on the Enterprise, on the flight deck, there was a prop plane that transported mail and parts and that type of thing, I had thirteen people aboard, it took ... machinery broke it was carrying the back, it dropped in the sea killing thirteen people ... and that was just part of life. Bradley- Did it freak you out at fust? I don' t know if it was the fust death you had really seen but. .. Michaei-...Did it freak me out? That's a good question . ...there' s a curiosity about it ... you know at that age you don' t ... you don' t think it's going to happen with you. If it does you' ll go out in all the glory you know. Go in the retirement home. Bradley- ... What was your favorite port you went in to? Michael - ... uh they were all unique. They were all unique and unless you visited them, they were exotic, they were nothing like you would ever see in Black Mountain, beautiful scenery, interesting people ... growing up in Black Mountain, working at the service station , you always had interesting people, so I was always fascinated with interesting people and their cultures ... so there was not one particular, I would say was the one. Bradley- Did you enjoy all the time you spent on leave and stuff and in ports? Was it almost to foreign to enjoy at some points? Michael- No ... it was never too foreign. I mean you only go around once, so you try and see it all. You know when a kid from Black Mountain gets to see all this exotic stuff.. . you know the capitols of the world. You grow up in school and read about them and how exotic they are and all that, then you find out most of them are just people. Bradley- Did you ever ... at what point did you realize that you weren' t going to .. . did you decide whether you would make a career out of it, or what point did you say this is fun now but am I going to keep doing this after this? Michael - Well I got married while in the military .. .very high rate of divorce, especially with Navy at that time because a cruise lasted about nine months ... and then when you were home you would have sea trials so you weren't home that much so marriage became a real problem and �also there was sometimes the boredom factor, there's a lot of that, when you're not, when you're not making missiles or bombs or whatever, it can get boring like anything else. Bradley- So when you came back in off that last cruise and you had seen the world and everything were you excited about being done, or did you feel like you were leaving a little bit of you behind on those ships? Michael - ... I was very excited to get out. I was coming home. At that point we working in the Enterprise had gone into dry dock in Bremerton, so all we were doing was chipping paint. I was very excited. I had a brother that I wanted to see grow up. Best part, big part in the hand. It was a lot of those types of things that you miss and when you get back home on the flip side ... you come home and people hadn't been through those experiences, you're different. When you talk to military people that have seen the world, they have a different view than someone that's say .. .local. When you join the military, you do whatever see as much of the world you can. Bradley- So did you do .. .it was four years? Michael - Four years, yes. Bradley- And after your four years did you look back and say that that it was well worth it or did you think you could have maybe been happy without it? Michael- That's a very loaded question ... first of all it changed my life forever, I met my wife, set a lot of things into motion ... so that's good. The flip side ... set a lot of things in motion ... a lot of things change you can't say what I'd have done ifl stayed in school, got my head on straight and become the attorney I thought I might be one of these days ... but you can't look at it that way. You really can't. Bradley- So I'm guessing that you definitely came out with honorable discharge? Michael - Yes Bradley- You're ready to move on with the rest of your life and once you got back in Black Mountain, did you think that, that restlessness had kind of been cured, that you had seen what you wanted to see, or did it almost just make it harder to be back in a little town now that you had been to had been to Hong Kong and the Philippines .. now your back to two stop lights. Michael- .. .I had a job one time, I was a cop here ... to turn off the stop lights(laughter) ... no I enjoyed being here but I always missed the excitement of seeing the world ... and today I still want to see the world. Bradley- And .... once you got out did you think that the Navy made a you more driven with the structure it had given you ... you said you were kind of restless when you went...just a teenage kid that didn't really know what he wanted to do ... do you think it really focused you in for the rest of your life. Some military people say it changed them for the better and some say it changed them for the worse ... Michael - It focused me, I grew up in there, accepting more responsibility that was a real positive .. .I think it was all in all a positive. It turned out to be a positive experience. There were people I know that went in there and it didn't turn out to be a positive experience for them. �Bradley- Did you keep in touch with any of the people you were in the service with or when you got on the plane back, you were on the plane back? Michael - I was on the plane back. Bradley- What did you decide to do career wise after you left the military and made that decision? Michael- When I come back l. ...this was during a recession in 1974 .. .1 was fortunate enough to get a job as a policeman. I had a wife to support and jobs were ... not that many of them ... plus I got to drive a car fast ... so as policeman I knew I needed education so I went back to AB Tech to finish that and then ... my son was born and then two and a half years late, we moved back to Oregon .. :out to Oregon, not back. Bradley- Do you think any of your Navy experience on the west coast, made you want to go back to the west coast or was that more of a total non military related decision? Or do you think had you been in Black Mountain, the west coast would have just been another place? Michael - I think ... if it hadn't been for the military I wouldn't have been exposed to the west coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity ... ifmost people go to the west coast, they're there for a week. The Navy gave me a home there ... where you blend in with the local, you know where to go to have fun, you know those types of things. There's beautiful places all over the country, drove across country and all that, there's some very fascinating places, I love the west coast, I love the east coast, but Black Mountain's home. Bradley- And once you were on the west coast, you got into the banking industry. Do you think anything you did in the Navy helped you with the banking? Michael - Uh ... no actually it put me behind. The reason I say that is at my age people in banking already had their four year degree, so I was competing against people with a degree. Uh .. .I was fortunate enough to get a job and work my way up through the company. Bradley- Do you think .... you went on to be pretty successful in the banking ... do you think once you got past the four year degree set back and the age difference with some of the people, that the structure you gained from the Navy helped your drive at all to get to the top of the corporate ladder or was that just who you were? Michael- That's just natural ... get it from parents ... my father ... my brother is successful I was successful .. .ifi had the drive in the Navy, for the example to work on the flight deck, you had to have drive. It was an automatic given that you had to prove yourself to move up to that level. Bradley-... Since you've gotten older and experienced some of the benefits of the VA hospitals and stuff, do you think that that is a very good prospect. ... or selling point I should say of joining the military for people that don't have a lot of money potentially or to have access to that for the rest of their lives. Did you take advantage of the GI Bill went you went back to AB Tech? Michael - What I found looking back and even back then the military and I talked to you about this one time the military is a way people see of getting their education paid for. The GI Bill was the most equalizer when it come out of anything happening after WWll all of a sudden it wasn't �just the rich kids that could go to college, it was the blue collar workers son or the blue collar worker. That' s the most equalizer; everyone looked at it that way. Unfortunately there' s also a price to be paid for that. Not everybody comes back from war with all their limbs or the same mental as when they went in. You can go into the VA hospital and you can see men that have seen things that no one should have to see. If you go to the VA hospital and look around, most are trained killers ... at one point in their life, they were trained killers and now a lot them its impacting them. Bradley- So when you see these recruiters and the posters that you get your college paid for, your medical bills for life, you know prescriptions are cheaper ... free .. .they make you feel like essentially you' re going to live a very covered life for the rest of your life. Do you just kind of look it and laugh, like it' s kind of a croc? Michael- It' s first of all when you come, unless you retire you're not under the medical plan. And there' s some provisions, for example now if you get out ofthe service and you' ve had combat duty, then you get two years insurance coverage down at the VA, you don' t get three years, you get two. Unless you get injured, then It's a whole different story. So .. .it' s not quite a croc but . .. . Bradley- There ' s a lot of :fine print. .. Michael- A lot of :fine print, remember they' re there to do a job, they're there to get you in. For a lot of people it' s the right decision and for a lot ofpeople .... no, it's generally if you look at the mixture you can go over to the VA now, most are high school graduates or less, most of them there weren't in the best jobs in the world, you know they worked in the mills, blue collar when they come out, they had done all the right things, but never made a whole lot of money just working in the mill. Bradley- So I guess the tell all question for the whole thing, is looking back now is do you think that you joining the Navy was a good decision or do you ... if you would have not done do you think you would be the same person you are now and everything would still be ok? Michael - I have to answer that in two ways. First of all you don't know what'll happen if you hadn' t joined. If you change one thing in your life, you change everything. I'm sitting here today with family, everything is good ... There' s people down at the cemetery that never made it past my age on account of Vietnam or another war. There' s .. .we have an uncle that fought in WWII, he came back physically alright but he was never mentally right, he lived that war the rest of his life, he lived into his late 70' s, early 80' s. So that's the first part of my answer. I can' t change anything because I'm here so I can't judge. The second side, would I advise someone going in? First of all it would depend on what their goals were and all that. My answer would be no. If it's there just to get an education, there' s other ways to get an education. It' s to unequal between the poor boys, the blue collar boys, the minorities going in, just trying to make it up the ladder. While you have the other group who because it is an all volunteer, they don' t have to go in because they have the money to stay out. So in four years, they have their degree, the other kid comes back out of Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan or the next thing, and they' ll be alright or maybe not. So why take that risk? �Bradley- Well I think we've covered about everything and thank you for everything and that concludes this interview on March 11 , 2011 in Black Mountain, NC between Bradley McMahan and Michael McMahan, for Dr. Judkin Browning' s American Military History class at Appalachian State University. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e6bae362c605e1ed0a03f0611c0f1888.mp3 80a0280bfaf7d5aa6d62de1cce8c33bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. McMahan, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. McMahan, Bradley Interview Date 3/11/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:31:27 File name 2013_063_McMahan_Mike_interview 2013_063_McMahan_Michael_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael McMahan, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McMahan, Bradley McMahan, Michael Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 9 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans McMahan, Michael Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Michael McMahan is interviewed about his service in the US Navy aboard the USS Ranger. He spent the majority of his time as a mess cook at the bottom of a ship, and was never stationed in Vietnam. aviation ordinance Black Mountain Cameron Bay cruise Enterprise GI Bill Michael McMahan US Navy USS Ranger Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/24d38c7b1e10456a379ea3aa307bdf5a.pdf 177f31b324b879decce9cd2a0b7243eb PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Tommy McCalvin. Feb. 19,2011 Kernersville, North Carolina Nick Waldrop: Interviewer Nick Waldrop interviewing Tommy McCalvin on February 19, 2011 at Tommy's home in Kernersville, North Carolina. Can you tell me when and where you were born? Tommy McCalvin: Port Saint Joe, Florida. June 18, 1966 Waldrop: And ... what branch of the military did you join? McCalvin : US Navy Waldrop: When did you join the navy? McCalvin: June 22, 1988 Waldrop: Alright, why did you join? McCalvin: The town I lived in was just a small town, just wanted to get out of town and see the world. Waldrop: So how old were you when you joined? McCalvin: Twenty Two Waldrop: Twenty Two. Did you initially plan to join the navy or did you want to serve in another branch? McCalvin: US Air Force is what I originally started trying to go into but they kept making me take the ASVAB test, which is the armed services vocational aptitude battery test or something. It's what everybody has to take to get into the military. So I took it four times within two months and ... they kept saying that the ... some scores, I mean I passed with flying colors but the scores were not jiving for some reason and they never really did explain that. So I walked out of the ... after the fourth time of taking the test at the air force I walked straight outta there and walked into the navy recruiting and a month later I was in San Diego, California. Waldrop: Alright, so how long did you serve in the navy for? McCalvin: Four years Waldrop: Four years. Alright, so you ... chose to go with the navy, went to San Diego ... that's where you did basic training? 1 �McCalvin : Yes Waldrop: So what was basic training like? McCalvin: It was eight weeks of... intense torture [chuckles], no they put you through things that, you know, they wanted to test your mental stability. You know see if you could take the rigorous life of the navy, so they put you through everything to see if they could ... break you for lack of a better word. I mean ... because being in the military is a stressful thing sometimes so they wanted to make sure you weren't gonna get in there and freak out. It was learning to, you know, use a rifle and a pistol and it was ... kind of ... basically showing you what life was gonna be like in the military and .. .it was a lot of exercise. A lot of running, a lot of pushups, a lot of extra work and it was hot. It was June in San Diego, California and it was hot. [chuckles] Waldrop: You said they tried to break you, did you ever witness anybody being ... broken? McCalvin: Oh yea. People left all the time. Waldrop: How do you ... how do they just leave basic training? McCalvin: Well .. .it's a little known fact but when you actually join the military you actually have six months ... 180 days to actually ... decide whether you're gonna leave or not. You know, they don't tell everybody that but if you decide in that first six months that the military is just not for you then you can opt out and ... get out of the military and just sign ... there's a little more to it than that. You can't just say I'm done, they try to get you to stay and they do other things but for the most part if they are set on leaving they let them leave. You know, because they don't want anybody in there that doesn't want to be in there. Especially in the first six months. Waldrop: Did you ever ... think about leaving? I mean was basic training that bad for you that you were just like I can't handle this. McCalvin: Oh, there was times when ... when I was thinking ... man four years of this but then I got to talking to my company commander and he said listen ... lt's not gonna be like this for four years or however long you stay in the navy. And he said trust me, I've been in for twelve, fourteen years. He said it's not like this. I said ok, so ... he talked me out of it. Waldrop: So when you were in basic training did you ... were you confined to the base for the entire eight weeks. McCalvin: Yes Waldrop : So you didn't get to ... explore San Diego, or ... 2 �McCalvin: No, I actually did my ... after I graduated from boot camp I actually did my ... extra training to be a engineman ... diesel mechanic in San Diego. So, I mean, that's when I got to explore the San Diego night life. Waldrop: So while you were in basic training ... were you able to talk with your family or your parents or anything like that? McCalvin: Letters but not talk. Just write letters. Waldrop : So you got out of basic training, when was that? McCalvin: ... end of August, first of September. Waldrop: 1988? McCalvin: Uh huh, Yes Waldrop: So you got out of basic training and then you said you went to train to be an engineman? McCalvin: Yes Waldrop: What was that like? McCalvin : It was like being in college really, I mean you were in ... you had class work that you did and then you ... after a certain amount of time. It was a twenty-six week course, no, I take that back. Thirteen week course and so the first couple weeks you were doing mainly class work and then after that you did class work in the morning and then you went out and actually turned a wrench and started working on equipment. It was ... it was kind of interesting. Waldrop: So you say it was kind of like college ...did you still have to live on base or did you ... McCalvin: I could've lived wherever I wanted but yea I lived on base. Waldrop: So did you still have duties to perform on base while you were ... McCalvin: Yes Waldrop : ... taking your classes. McCalvin: We had ... we had to stand guard duty .. .for a twenty four hour period. I mean not twenty four hours at a time but we were confined to the base for twenty four hours. You had your normal workday from seven to four and then if you were on duty you had to stay and 3 �stand guard duty during certain times. So you did that every six days ... it was like every six days you couldn't leave the base. Kind of like a fireman. [Chuckles] Waldrop: So did you get, while you were in class, did you get weekends off ...or was it like you went everyday to class? McCalvin: Well no you went...yea you got weekends off, you went Monday through Friday and then if you weren't on duty Saturday and Sunday, then you had Saturday and Sunday off. Waldrop: Ok. Alright, so after basic training was done where did you go? What did you do? McCalvin: Well after I got through with my schooling in San Diego I went to the USS New Jersey, which is a battleship, and reported for duty on the battleship and started doing my daily job ... being an engineman. Waldrop : So how long did you serve on the New Jersey? McCalvin: Eighteen months. Waldrop: Eighteen Months. So what was your responsibilities while you were on the New Jersey? McCalvin: We made sure that the generators, we had two diesel generators that would ... if the ship went...lost power, we could start the generators up and run the ship ... through the generators. So that was part of my job making sure that the generators were kept and maintained and ready to be used. And then we also took the oil pressure sensors on the bearings on the shaft, for the ship and took care of the low pressure and high pressure air systems and the bilge pumps. Basically took care of the drinking water, the air conditioners, just everything that had to do with the engineer part we were part of taking care of it. Waldrop: So ... so while you were on the New Jersey ... did you guys sail around or were you patrolling the coast of the United States? McCalvin: We went out for short training periods, like maybe thirteen or fourteen days. Then we deployed to overseas and went to Pusan, Korea and different places like that. We went out for a six month cruise. So we were out from our home port for six months and then we visited different cities of the world and different countries. Waldrop: So what...l guess do you know why you were going out? What was the mission I guess .. .for going? McCalvin: Just...just to let our presence to be known. We went out with a battle group where there was like ... one battleship ... two aircraft carriers ... three or four cruisers and different ships which kind of went as a group and we went to different places just to let the world know that 4 �we were there. Just kind of ...like customer relations. Let them know that we were there and we weren't there to start any trouble but we were there if the trouble started. Waldrop: Ok. So you served for eighteen months on the New Jersey. What did you do after serving on the New Jersey? McCalvin: I went to ... the David H. Hill, which is a cruiser, and was there for six months and then went to the USS New Jersey for two years .... just about ... close to two years and then they 1 decommissioned the USS New Jersey on March 31 of 1992 ... and we went overseas and we were actually in the Gulf War, the first Gulf War. Waldrop: On the New Jersey? McCalvin: No, on the Missouri. Waldrop : So you went to the David H. Hill and then the Missouri? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop: Ok. So ... what's a cruiser? McCalvin : It has like smaller ...it has like guided missiles and it has five inch guns. It's just a smaller ship than the battleships and other ships. The battleship had fifteen-hundred people on it and the cruiser had about six-hundred. Waldrop: And then ... was your job pretty much the same on the David H. Hill? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop : And what about on the USS Missouri? McCalvin: Same. Waldrop: Same job. So ... you said the Missouri was a... carrier? McCalvin: No, a battleship. Waldrop: It was a battleship. So you said you were in the Gulf War while you were serving on the Missouri? McCalvin: Yes. 1 Here Tommy is referring to the USS Missouri. After serving on the David H. Hill he went to serve on the USS Missouri and served on it until the ship was decommissioned on March 31, 1992. 5 �Waldrop: Were you guys here when the Gulf War broke out or were you overseas at the time? McCalvin: We were ... we were here originally and then, but we were ... before the actual war broke out we were actually leaving to go overseas but then we got rerouted to serve in the Persian Gulf. Waldrop: Did you have any idea about the situation that was developing? Was there any kind of talk like, oh there might be a war or something? McCalvin : Not before I joined the navy but yea ...six, eight months before the actual war broke out we knew that tensions were getting tough over there and that Saddam Hussein was a maniac and he was gonna probably, eventually need to be taken out and unfortunately we didn't finish the job so that's why we're there now. Waldrop : So ... did you think that the Missouri was going to be called up to actually fight in the war or ... McCalvin : We pretty much figured we were because usually in every battle group there's a battleship, maybe even two battleships, and like I said two or three aircraft carriers and numerous other ships so we pretty much knew, maybe not that we were gonna be in the Persian Gulf but we knew we were gonna be somewhere ... defending our troops. Waldrop: So ... when you guys went to the Persian Gulf, did your job stay the same or did you have additional combat duties you had to perform? McCalvin : I was in charge of the small boat units and I had to go out with the explosive ordinance teams to, like if a mine was found in the Persian Gulf, I rode on the small boat units in order to make sure that the boat was still running and if it broke down be able to fix it, and they went out and blew up mines so I rode with them. That was part of my job. Any time we did anything that involved the small boats I was part of it. Whether we were refueling or whether we were refueling helicopters or going out and blowing up mines I was in charge of that, so I had to go. So it might be two o'clock in the morning or it could be noon, whenever they had to go I had to go with them. Waldrop : What was it like having to go out and blow up land mines? I mean was it scary? McCalvin: Well it wasn't landmines, it was ... Waldrop : Sorry, sea mines. McCalvin: Yea, we had ... there were certain things that you always knew that .... the responsibility that ...if the mine wasn't stable, doing the wrong thing could end up blowing you and other people up. I remember one time they slapped the C4 on it and we rode off fifty, sixty yards and 6 �then hit the button and it didn't blow up. So the captain said give it thirty seconds and then go back and check on it and I'm like just drop me off here I'll just dog paddle until y'all get back. When you hit the C4, when you hit the button to blow the C4 up and it don't blow up then something's wrong. Luckily it blew up within fifteen seconds and we didn't have to go back and check on it. Waldrop: So was that ... while you were doing that was there ever any times where you were kind of under enemy fire or anything like that? Or was it pretty much night time missions or something like that? McCalvin: No, we were out day and night. We never actually got fired on while we were blowing mines and everything but we actually got a missile shot at us. We were all sitting there doing our jobs and next thing you know they come over the intercom and they're like brace for shock missile inbound on the starboard side, which is the right side of the ship, and we're sitting there and at that point I really realized ... ! mean I realized that we were in a war when we were blowing up mines but when we actually had a missile shot at us I kind of realized that hey we're in a war and I looked at my buddy and said "hey, you know we're in a war right now right?" And he was like, "yea," he says, "it's actually coming more clearer every day." Then the missile went over us and then it turned around and come back and they said missile inbound port side ... and actually a British ship blew up the ... because we have what they call a CWIS, which is Close Interval Weapon System, it looks like R2D2, it's got like a Gatling gun that shoots 3000 rounds per minute and it blows up planes and missiles and stuff like that. Well it was a glitch in the system and it kind of like shut down and so were kind of like sitting ducks, and a British ship shot the missile down for us. When we actually got into port later on I found some British sailors and bought them a round of drinks because we didn't really know which Brit ... we just heard that it was a British ship that shot the missile down. In turn ... you never know what really is gonna happen but in turn I kind of felt like they saved our lives. Waldrop: So how long were you guys over there during the Gulf War? I mean were you there the whole time? McCalvin: No, we were there for about a month but the actual Gulf War only lasted about seventeen days. Which really doesn't sound like much compared to the wars that we've had in the past, and the war that we're in now, but seventeen days in a war is more than I wanted to be in. Waldrop : So you said you kind of ... when it first broke out, until that missile started coming toward your ship would you say like it kind of had a surreal feeling? You knew you were in a war but you didn't really feel like it because you weren't actually fighting enemies ... McCalvin: Yes. I mean it was ... we weren't hand to hand combat or anything like that we were actually ... in the ... we actually ... like when our troops went in we actually lended ground fire to 'em. We shot missiles or we shot the sixteen inch guns to ... 7 �Waldrop: Soften them up? McCalvin : Pave the way, yea pave the way for them to get in and everything. We didn't really ... we really didn't think about it until the missile shot at us and we were like "whoa, we're in a war." Waldrop: So you said you were over there for a month. What did you do after the war was over? McCalvin: We went to Australia and Hobart, Tasmania which is an island off the coast of Australia. Went to Singapore, no, not Singapore. We went to Thailand and just relaxed. Like I said seventeen days isn't much of a war but it's more of a war than I wanted to be in. Waldrop: So how long did you get to stay in Australia? McCalvin: We were in Australia for ... six days. We were in Hobart, Tasmania for three days and we were in Thailand for four days and we went to several other ports. I've been all over the world and seen places that ... unless I strike it rich I'm not ever gonna be able to see again but I really enjoyed my time in the navy to be able to see those. I was lucky. There's people that don't even really see the outskirts of their state and I've been all over the world so I consider myself very lucky. Being able to scuba dive on the Great Barrier Reef is something that most people will never experience. Waldrop: So when you went to these different ports, Australia and Singapore and stuff, did you get shore leave? Did you get some time to go into the cities? McCalvin : Yes. When you're out ... when you're away from your home port you have duty every three days so if you're not on duty then you can go out and explore the city and meet new people and party and do whatever. As long as you're back for your duty they didn't really care what you do as long you don't get in trouble or hurt anybody. Waldrop: So when you went into Singapore and Pusan and places like that, obviously they're not English speaking countries, was there kind of a communication problem or were you able to find your way around pretty easily? McCalvin: Yea a lot of times if you met somebody, I remember when we were in Singapore, it was Christmas time and we met these two American girls and they could speak a little Chinese, Singapore is under Chinese rule, so they invited us for Christmas dinner and they gave us a slip of paper that had their address on it written in Chinese, so we gave it to the cab driver and he took us to the place that was supposed to be what was on the address and it was like this big huge mansion and I'm like "I don't think is the right place." So I went up and rung the buzzer and they asked "can I help you," and I was like "yea, we're two American sailors here for Christmas dinner," and they said "yea, come on in." So we told the cab driver that was fine and come to find out that it was the ambassador of Singapore from America ... it was his daughter 8 �that we met and a friend of hers. So we went in and had a nice Christmas dinner and it was kind of interesting. Waldrop: So did you have any other kind of experiences like that anywhere else? McCalvin : Hobart, Tasmania . We had just left Australia and I had twenty five dollars to my name and, so I decided I was going to go the casino and try to take that 25 dollars and turn it into more money. About 20 minutes later I was broke. So I sat next to an American guy and just watched him and he was racking up money, racking up money and I guess he got tired of me watching him and he took a dollar coin and put it into the machine I was sitting in front of, the one I had been playing all along, and he said go ahead and hit it if you get anything It's yours. I hit it, won 476 dollars, cashed it out, gave him his dollar back and partied for two days. Left Australia with a few little trinkets, bought a hat for my dad and some stuffed animals for my nephew and stuff. Left with 25 dollars, so I left with the same amount of money I came in with. It was kind of interesting. Waldrop: Yea. It sounds pretty fun. So you said you served on the Missouri for two years. The Gulf War was what '91? You serve your month or whatever in the Gulf War and then you just spend the rest of your time sailing around port to port? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop: When did you finally come back to the United States? McCalvin: June ... May, May or June of '91. Waldrop : Ok. Did you guys come back and then hang out here for a little bit here then go back out? McCalvin: Like I said we would go out for like 14 days or 6 days or whatever just kind of out in the middle of the ocean firing off our guns and stuff like that just to keep in practice. Waldrop: So where was your home port? McCalvin : Long Beach, California. Waldrop: Ok. McCalvin: Terminal Island. Waldrop: Ter? McCalvin : Terminal Island is where I was actually stationed at in Long Beach 9 �Waldrop : So ... after ...when did you get out of the navy? McCalvin : I actually got out early because they were decommissioning the Missouri. So I actually got to take 30 days, or 90 days early out, so I actually got out March 31, 1992. Then I kind of just hung out. I cashed out my vacation, I had some vacation, so I got money for that and they paid me for the next three months so I got a lump sum of money... that's really not good for a guy that's 26 years old and never had that much money in his life to go out and have 12 or 14 thousand dollars. I didn't save it, I blew it. I kind of partied for the next three or four months, and kind of chilled out. Waldrop : You were still in California? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop: So ... you got out of the navy when you were 26. Why didn't you stay in? McCalvin : It got too political. I felt like, that if I was doing my job and doing the job to the best of my ability that I should be able advance in rank and people should leave me alone and let me do my job. It got to the point where people were wanting you to kiss their butt and if you didn't kiss their but then you kind of stayed the same rank you were. Even though you were passing your test ... you had to pass the test and then if you passed the test to advance in rank, then you had to go through a board and they decided whether you were gonna advance in rank or stay the same rank. I got passed over twice and just got done ...done with it. Waldrop: So what rank were you when you joined the navy? McCalvin: I was an E2 Waldrop: E2. Did you advance at all? McCalvin : Yes. I was an E4 when I got out. Waldrop : So is that like right below an officer? McCalvin: Well no, you go from El to E9. E9 is a master chief and then ... enlisted ...l was called an enlisted sailor. .. they're .. .from E1 to E9 and then you have warrant officers which are enlisted men that switch over to officers and then you have the officers. Basically an ensign is an officer but he's just an overpaid E4. He's the lowest ofthe low as far as officers. Waldrop: So you got of the navy when you were 26. You spent three months in California. What did you do after that? 10 �McCalvin: Came back to Georgia and just kind of chilled out for a little bit. Then got a job with a trucking company and worked it for a while. Then I liked the trucking business so I decided to move to North Carolina in 2003 and met a beautiful woman and just started a family. Waldrop: Why didn't you ... did you try and go to school after you got out of the navy? Could you go on the G. I. Bill or anything like that? McCalvin: Yea I started college and then I got to the point where I needed to make a living so I decided to just put college on hold for a little bit and go to work, and then I started making really good money and decided "what I need to go to college for?" So I never went back and have been working ever since. Waldrop: Alright. Do you keep in contact with any of your shipmates? McCalvin: Yea through facebook. I've written a few letters to different people before. I got introduced to facebook before facebook was introduced to the world. There's a couple that I talk to on the phone and everything. Yea I've kept in touch with them. Then there's people that I met while I was in the navy that they weren't in the military and I've kept in touch with them . It's kind of interesting. Waldrop: So do you ever think back ... about ... why you didn't stay in. Do you kind of regret getting out after four years? McCalvin: Yea there's times that I wish that I had've stayed in, I would've actually pulled my twenty year duty in 2008, I would've been in the military for 20 years but then I look at ... I guess as far as God ... God is gonna let me ...you know my life is gonna work the way God wants it to work and I would've met my family one way or another somehow if that was the family I was supposed to be with . I regret not goin in for ... staying in for 20 years but I also am glad that I got out and was able to meet my family and get married and have the family that I have. Waldrop: Ok. Do you ... are you part of any veteran's organizations or anything like that? McCalvin: I'm a member of the VFW and ... military.com has like an organization where it's kinda like a friends thing where you can hook up with friends that were in the military or maybe just meet somebody locally that was in the navy and just kind of hook up with them and kind of talk about their experiences and your experiences. Waldrop: So are you really active in that or just kind of ... ? McCalvin: Not as much as I used to be but it's always there and you can go back in any time and check your messages and get back in touch with the people you've talked to. Waldrop: Do they have reunions or anything like that? 11 �McCalvin: Not as far as being sanctioned by the US navy but I'm sure that if you got with a few buddies, your shipmates, and talked with them and y'all wanted to meet up with each other I'm sure you could work that out too. Waldrop: Ok. Weill guess that's .... is there anything that you'd like to say that I haven't asked you yet? McCalvin: I'm thankful for the military. I think that it would be good for any young person to go into and experience. My advice to anybody out there that was thinking about joining the military, join for two years, see if you like it. That way if you join for two years you're only in there for two years. If you join for four years and you don't like it then you're in there for four years. Two years would be the minimum that you could join for, join for two years and see if it's what you like then go from there. Waldrop: Alright, ok well thank you. McCalvin: You're welcome. 12 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c8544d5e102366fb8bd2cbffd3c74ee3.mp3 64a259793945880780d87ddda0f3e3d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. McCalvin, Tommy Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Waldrop, Nick Interview Date 2/19/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:35:52 File name 2013_063_McCalvin_Tommy_interview 2013_063_McCalvin_Tommy_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tommy McCalvin, 19 February 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Waldrop, Nick McCalvin, Tommy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Persian Gulf War, 1991 Veterans McCalvin, Tommy Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Tommy McCalvin enlisted in the US Navy in 1988 and fought in the 17-day Gulf War aboard the USS Missouri. He was trained as a diesel mechanic and his job was to blow up sea mines. He left the military after four years and recommends that anyone who is interested in joining, go for two years at first. ASVAB Test David H. Hill diesel mechanic Gulf War San Diego seamines Singapore Tommy McCalvin US Navy USS Missouri USS New Jersey VFW https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3abd054bf2e80fbcfd85163fc4768a92.pdf a5c75172c5947c870e1bc69f1bc3a388 PDF Text Text Interview with Frank E. Koehl Dr. Browning Charlie Widner 3/14/2011 �Charlie: Alright can you please state your name? Frank: My name is Frank E. Koehl, K.O.E.H.L. I was born in 1934. Charlie: Alright. .. what branch of the service did you join? Frank: I joined the United States Navy in 1951 . Charlie: ...were you involved in any wars? Frank: No. Charlie: ... did you enlist or were you drafted? Frank: I enlisted. Charlie: Okay ... Frank: My father signed for me and I was only 17 at the time. Charlie: Where were you living at the time? Frank: Takoma Park, Maryland. Charlie: ... why did you join the navy? Frank: Because my whole family was in the navy and I felt I should join too. Charlie: ... Frank: My great-grandfather, my father, and my son. So I joined for that reason. Charlie: And that's why you picked the navy instead of any other branch ... Well, tell me a little bit about your ... training experience of boot camp. If you can remember anything ... Frank: Well, boot camp was pretty hard because they wanted you not to ask why they tell you to jump, you just jump. I went through boot camp and then they found out I was a good swimmer so they put me into teaching swimming. And I never got on a ship. Charlie: Alright. .. do you , do you remember any of your instructors; boot. .. your boot camp instructors or any ... ? Frank: I can't remember any names, no. �Charlie: ... was it; was it hard to stay in touch with your family while you were in the navy? Frank: They, they stayed in touch with me, yea. Charlie: What were some was that people entertained themselves? Frank: In the navy? Charlie: Yea. Frank: We'd go downtown, to the bars. Have a few drinks, watch the girlies, and then go back to base. Charlie: ... did ... can you remember any particular funny or unusual event while you were in the navy. Or while ... you went to downtown? Frank: The Korean War started while I was in the Navy. Well, they call it a conflict now. But I didn't get involved in it at all. Charlie: Well, where were ... where were you stationed? Frank: Great Lakes Naval Training Station, Chicago. Charlie: What was your. .. rank? Frank: I don't know. I guess they had some kind of a teaching ... system and I forgot what it was. Charlie: Oh that's fine ... let's see. So you didn't.. .you didn't see any combat or anything like that? Frank: No, thank God for that. Charlie: Yea ... well. .. how did you get along with your fellow soldiers? Frank: Oh, I got along good with them, especially the recruits Charlie: Yea ... Frank: ... that I was teaching. Charlie: Yea ... Frank: I went in when I was seventeen and by the time I was eighteen, I was teaching. I was a teacher already. �Charlie: Yea ... do you ...do .. . did you make close friendships with anybody while you were in the Navy? Frank: Oh lots of them but I couldn't tell you the name of them now. Charlie: So ... Frank: Some of them have passed away. Charlie: So ... Frank: I'm 77 so you can see that was a long time ago. Charlie: Right. .. so ... you, you were not able to continue the relationships because you lost touch with them right? Frank: Yea. When I graduated. Charlie: Well do you remember the day that you ... your service ended? Frank: Yea, September of '54 I believe. Charlie: What did you do the days and weeks afterward like how did cope with not being in the navy? Frank: I just became a regular citizen again. Charlie: Did you .. . Frank: I went home for a while and got a job at a gas station, and bought an old car and just became a normal teenager. Charlie: Yea ... so that was your. .. so you just got a job right after is how you coped? Frank: Yea. Charlie: Well how did being in the navy affect your life? Frank: It taught me how to be aware of what's, what's going on. Charlie: Right. .. so your life would be different if you hadn't had joined the navy. Frank: Oh yea, I would have been lazy. Charlie: So it made you .. . �Frank: When they said , "jump," I jumped. Charlie: So now you're more motivated to do things for yourself. Frank: I was, yea. Charlie: Oh well, yea. Well ... did you travel anywhere while you were in the service? Frank: No I never left the base when I was in the service ... Charlie: Okay .. . Frank: ... except to go downtown Chicago. Charlie: Because you were, you were teaching right? Frank: Yea, I could have went home for a week or two. Charlie: Is there ... is there anything else you'd like to cover, any stories or anything like that, that you can remember about the navy? Frank: The only thing is that I was good at swimming under water. And they put me in the UDT, Underwater Delimination (Demolition) Team and we'd swim under water and put bombs on ships. Of course I didn't have to do that but we'd teach them how. Charlie: Do you remember any of your fellow soldiers having to go to the Korean War? Frank: All of them did when they graduated. Most of them anyway. Charlie: Well how did that make you feel? Frank: Good , because I didn't have to go. Charlie: Yea .. .did any of your close friends have to go? Frank: Oh yes. I was in special training so I didn't. .. I mean people would go through boot camp were training and when they got there boot camp training done they shipped them overseas, but I didn't have to go. Charlie: Well that's good .. .well, if there's any ... nothing else that you'd like to share, I guess we're good to go. Frank: I hope it'll do you some good. Charlie: Alright. .. well, thank you for taking the time to interview with me. �Frank: You're welcome. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e50b9a12d215815558d7f4d5322a04da.mp3 05dc2ea461e49ac7c043c61a861b0f56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Koehl, Frank E. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Widner, Charlie Interview Date 3/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:08:37 File name 2013_063_Koehl_Frank_interview 2013_063_Koehl_FrankE_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank E. Koehl, 14 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widner, Charlie Koehl, Frank E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 6 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Veterans Koehl, Frank E. United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Frank E. Koehl served in the US Navy during the Korean War, but never had to leave the Naval Training Station in Chicago. He was a teacher there and served on the Underwater Demolition Team. Chicago Frank E. Koehl Korean War Naval Training Station Underwater Demolition Team US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4eed3bb4f2e1f3f228b9a19603fc61ad.pdf 6b8dbd3cf1fc0069cf4570ef35814d29 PDF Text Text 1 Transcript of Oral History Project March 11th 20 11 Dr.Browning Jordan Jessup Interview of Joe Bill Jessup Jordan Jessup: My name is Jordan Jessup and ... I am interviewing my uncle Joe Bill Jessup and the date is March 11th 2011 , and ... I'm in ... in his home at this time and ... I am just doing an interview for my class, and ... just bare with me. Jordan Jessup: I'd like to start off the question by asking: were you drafted or did you enlist? Joe Bill Jessup: I enlisted. Jordan Jessup: How long were you in, in service? Joe Bill Jessup: I was in there 4 years. Jordan Jessup: Where were you living at the time that you were, that you enlisted? Joe Bill Jessup: I was living in Surry County. Jordan Jessup: OK ... Where did you join? Joe Bill Jessup: Mount Airy Jordan Jessup: He joined in Mount Airy North Carolina, Which branch of service did you serve in? Joe Bill Jessup: U.S. Navy. Jordan Jessup: Do you remember anything from boot camp that happened when you first joined, or anything like that? Joe Bill Jessup: Well I yes, I remember how a change of life was, I was living on a farm and then I went into the military and this training was a big adjustment for me. Jordan Jessup: Uh ... Was it a good experience for ya? Joe Bill Jessup: Was a real good experience it, it changed my life it made a man out of me. �2 Jordan Jessup: Uh. What were some of the interesting places that you went? Joe Bill Jessup: .... Well, I went to San Diego, to take my training then I boarded I was assigned to the USS Tuscan a light Cruiser stayed on that cruiser for a year then I was transferred to heavy cruiser which was uh USS Helena I was first USS Tuscan but I was transferred to the USS Helena. Jordan Jessup: ... What was your job on the ship? Joe Bill Jessup: I was a gunner' s maid. I had the maintenance and the daily operation I was in a gun chamber a turret on the ship. Jordan Jessup: Did you have some memorable experiences on the ship? Joe Bill Jessup: Yeah. We urn. Was assigned to the ... my assignment I got was an apprentice to the gunners maid and then I every daily I had to maintain this five inch thirty eight gun it had thirteen people aboard on one gun that's what it took to fire from the bottom of the ship the handling room to the second handling room to the gun chamber and then urn when we to then I went to Korea that's where it took place then I was a pointer. A pointer. .. gets the target in view and he' s the one that does the pushing the peddle to fires the ammo. Jordan Jessup: Ok Jordan Jessup: Well what was it like being away at home since you' d never been anywhere? Joe Bill Jessup: Well, it was a uh new experience it was so much interest in things were happening day by day that I had never encountered and so it kept my mind occupied away from home, at that present time. Jordan Jessup: Was it an exciting lifestyle or was it very stressful or... ? Joe Bill Jessup: It was a very exciting lifestyle. We uh. Left and went from place to place and we traveled uh before the Korean war, before the Korean war we was in Hawaii and went to Japan and from Japan I was in China and from China I went to a lot of places uh like the Philippine islands and a lot of places that we traveled I saw the people doing different things and it was always educational for me. Jordan Jessup: Hum. Did you meet some interesting people while you were over there? Joe Bill Jessup: Very interesting people very interesting I was uh communicating, I always like to get involved and find out what other peoples doing and I was on other ships that pulled beside us in Japan, it was from Australia, I enjoyed going aboard other ships and other things to see how �3 they did things and how we did them. And I would say that the Americans was far ahead of all the other ships id ever been on. Jordan Jessup: Uh. Well this, this is part 2 of the interview. What was the last day like that you were in service? Do you remember it? Joe Bill Jessup: Very well, I had uhjust married and I'd taken my wife to California and I was, I was stationed at long beach California and then I went to San Diego to get a discharge and it was uh, and I couldn' t hardly wait till I got back uh to long beach for the journey back in civilization I was gonna be a civil man. Jordan Jessup: So, where were you at when your service ended? You was in California. Joe Bill Jessup: I was in California. I was discharged in San Diego. Jordan Jessup: So when you come home, ... what did you do after your service? Joe Bill Jessup: Well, I was worked in a mill and that didn' t go good, the mill work was not my thing. I started a hardware store business and a grocery store business and that was my life and uh and a being in grocery stores and hardware stores and then I went into the auto parts business and then I tried the I did some of the restaurant business and I, I There again I met a lot of people and enjoyed talking to a lot of people. Jordan Jessup: So you moved back to Surry County? Joe Bill Jessup: Moved back to Surry County and been in Surry County the rest of my life. Jordan Jessup: Uh after your military, did you ever stay in touch with people you' d met during your uh time in the service? Or? Joe Bill Jessup: Yes, Id visited some of the people that was in Arkansas and different places that uh we really got close together was real close friends and I had to travel again in the states from place to place, and I enjoyed traveling, and enjoyed talking with other people. Jordan Jessup: ... How did your service experience affect your life? How did it affect you? Joe Bill Jessup: I think it changed me completely, I think ifl hadn't been in the service, it really give me a foundation, and uh with uh people who was uh grounded and knew where they was headed I would have never been able to do anything of this nature. I'd have never been able to be in the business world I would have never been able to travel like I traveled its uh big educational throughout my life in the military. �. . 4 Jordan Jessup: So you pretty much got to see the world. Joe Bill Jessup: Yes I did, I was very fortunate to see the different parts and then you can tell other people that's never been, you can sort of tell them too you know. Jordan Jessup: In closing, is there anything that you' d like to add about your military service that, that really comes to your mind ... I know ... growing up you were told me one time about going to Japan. Joe Bill Jessup: Yeah uh, that, that was our home port. Really in Yokosuka, Japan in of course you know uh we was there in 1948 and 49 ofthe beginning and WWII had just ended and Japan at that time was coming out from under a great time in their life there' s hunger, people out of work and uh they lived in that day 48 and 49 and uh I saw the loving people that I thought were different till I got when I went there uh I met these people and they had a different look and a different side that id ever heard in the United States so them people relayed the how love and care that id never saw before in my life. It just changed my life. Jordan Jessup: That's wonderful .... I'd just like to thank you Joe Bill Jessup, for doing this interview for me and uh thanks for your military service. Joe Bill Jessup: I appreciate, I'm honored that you' d ask me to do this it' s a great honor, and I hope maybe some where along life' s road that other people would like to follow military and uh do great things and enhance you to do other things in life as you retire or as you discharge from the military. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a0ec350c4bf7892c081356cee607a26c.mp3 39c9de9b54e7301e99b511b6661ba263 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Jessup, Joe Bill Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Jessup, Jordan Interview Date 3/11/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:11:10 File name 2013_063_Jessup_JoeBill_interview 2013_063_Jessup_JoeBill_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Bill Jessup, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jessup, Jordan Jessup, Joe Bill Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 4 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource United States Veterans Jessup, Joe Bill Korean War, 1950-1953 Gunner's Mates Navy Interviews Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Joe Bill Jessup talks about working as a gunner's mate on the USS Helena during the Korean War. He was stationed in Yokosuka, Japan. gunner's mate Joe Bill Jessup Surry County US Navy USS Helena USS Tuscan Yokosuka Japan https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/804f7fa00c184340d64a23453a5fdc58.pdf 3315bec35ca581d11627b53a76af5f09 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Nathan Bigger March 11, 2011 Gary, NC Dwayne Davidson: It is March 11, 2011. We're in Gary, North Carolina, in the home of the Bigger family. I am interviewing Nathan Bigger, former Navy. I am Dwayne Davidson, student at Appalachian State University and we will begin the oral history project now. Mr. Bigger, when and where were you born? Nathan Bigger: 1955, April in Knoxville, Tennessee. Davidson: And when did you join the military? Bigger: July, 1974. Davidson: ...What branch did you join and why? Bigger: United States Navy. ...I had been in a Naval Junior ROTC program in High School. ...I was, grew up in a military family. My Father was career Army and had always pretty much felt like I'd probably join the military at some point and through my exposure in the Naval Junior ROTC program in High SchooL.my interest in the Navy developed. Davidson: You said your Father was in the Navy, or, Army? Bigger: Yes. Davidson: What rank did he hold and where was he stationed? Bigger: When he retired, he was a Lieutenant Colonel, Infantry Paratrooper and was stationed all over the world, but...he was in different places. Fort Benning, Georiga, Fort Bragg, North Carolina-he did...well thats...I'll stop there. Davidson: Ok...was he involved in any combat? Bigger: Yes. He fought in World War II in North Africa and...Italy, Sicily and, and in Italy and he also fought in the Korean War. Davidson: Ok...how did your father being in the military impact your decision to join the Navy? Bigger: I grew up as an Army brat so I had alot of exposure to the military and...it just helped me give a, get a general feeling of family and, and belonging being part of the military. �Davidson: Can you describe your basic training or boot camp experience? Bigger: I enjoyed boot camp, quite a bit...I ended up coming out of...the Navy bootcamp down in Orlando, Florida as, I was elected company honor man by all the members of my company, which was quite a significant honor for me. And I really, I did enjoy bootcamp quite a bit. Davidson: Ok...after bootcamp where were you stationed? Bigger: My first-duty station was in Great Lakes, Illinois. I was transfered up there after bootcamp to attend Machinest Mate A-School. From there I was transferred to San Diego, California and served aboard a submarine tender for four months before moving on with my Naval different education programs. Davidson: Ok, what were your major responsibilities or jobs in the Navy? Like your MOS? Bigger: ...My...classifications were 42, 60...I shouldn't have tried to give you that I don't...! was an auxiliary man aboard a nuclear power submarine. I was a machinest mate and I was qualified to operate the oxygen generators on board. There were two different classifications for those and to be honest with you I cant...42 45 was one of 'em and I can't remember the other one. Davidson: Ok. How long did you serve in the Navy? Bigger: I was in for six years. Davidson: And what was your most lasting memory of those six years? Bigger: ...I guess it would be the comraderie and the friendships that I developed with the people that I served with. Especially once I got assigned to a crew on a submarine...you do become very tight and very, very connected to your crewmates on board a submarine. Davidson: ...Did you ever see combat? Bigger: No. Davidson: No? But you said you were on a submarine. Can you describe a, I guess a typical day in a submarine, on a submarine? Bigger: ....Typical day-starts with...I guess...I'll start with when you get outta your, outta your bunk and get ready to go serve your.... your watch station-go eat a meal, which, whichever time of day it is...you always have four meals a day on, on the submarine because we operated on a watch schedule that there was always a meal �being served before the next on coming watch would have to go take their watch station. So we'd gather together in the crew's mess and eat and...kinda get a feel for what had gone on while we had been asleep and then I'd go back to my watch station and, and get a turn over from the guy who had been on watch that I was relieving as to what went on in the compartment and with the operating equipment that we were monitoring and managing during our watch period and then I'd relieve him of the station and take over and start keeping the logs for the different equipment that was operating in the station, in the compartment and...just maintain the compartment, maintain the equipment, keep a watchful eye out for...any kind of equipment malfunctions or...flooding incidents, anything like that. And...at the end of my watch, I'd essentially do the same thing for the guy coming on that, that the guy that I replaced had done. I'd turn over the watch station to the next on coming man and then go get something to eat in the crew's mess. If it was the right time of day we'd get ready to watch movies after the evening meal, spend what free time we had reading, playing games in the crew's lounge. Sometimes go down into the lower level, the missle compartment and exercise. We had just barely enough space down there for a stationary bicycle and some, some weight equipment if...different members of the crew wanted to work out. You could run laps in missle lower level to, to help maintain your physical stamina and, and... get ready to go to bed and get ready to do the same thing all over again the next...after about a six hour break. Davidson: ...During what time period were you in a submarine? Bigger: ...Got assigned to the crew in 1976 and...Ieft the Navy in 1980 so I was on there for four years. Between 1976 and 1980. Davidson: You were in the submarine for four years? Bigger: No...the submarine that I was on was a ballistic missile submarine and we had, there were actually two crews assigned to each ballistic missile submarine. There's a blue crew and a gold crew and our tours of duty would consist of a...thirty day refit where we'd fly to wherever the submarine was based out of, I was based outta New London, Connecticut, it was the sub base that I was assigned to and the submarine that I was on operated out of Holy Lock, Scotland. So we would board an airplane out of New Haven, Connecticut and fly over to, to Glasgow, Scotland, ride a bus for about an hour and a half to get to the lock, Holy Lock where the subtender was and we'd wait about, usually about two days before the...the crew that had the boat would come in and we'd spend a week, they'd turn the boat over, spend five days turning the boat over to us, telling us about how the patrol went, giving us a breakdown of any machinery issues they had and then after they would, they left, we'd take over control of the boat. We'd spend a thirty day refit period where we would perform...maintenance, regularly scheduled maintenance on all of the equipment as well as repair anything that broke down while they were out, while the previous crew was out at sea that they couldn't repair while they were out on patrol. At the end of that thirty day period, we'd take the boat out for a quick sea trial to make sure everything was operating-functioning correctly. Come back in, do �a final stores load for a day or two, bringing on food stores. And then we'd pull away from the sub tender and head out to deep water and dive the boat and we'd stay submerged for...70 to 75 days. Davidson: Ok...and if my history is correct, this was during the Cold War... Bigger: That's correct. Cold War Era. Davidson: Did you, while under water, submerged, did you ever expect physical contact with the Soviet Union? Bigger: ...Did not expect it, did not want it. Our primary mission was to remain hidden...undetectable...so that nobody, I mean U.S. Navy would know the general area that we were patroling in because they would give us the assignments obviously, but we did not want the Soviets where we were, that would...defeat our mission of being a hidden, undetectable platform for launching...deterrent...nuclear weapons...We would have to deal almost everytime we went out to start a patrol, we would have to deal with a Soviet...fishing trailer or spy ship trail, trying to trail us as we would leave...when we'd leave the coastal waters of Scotland and head out into international waters, we would always pick up a Soviet trailer of some type that was outfitted with tracking equipment that would try to track us and see where we were headed, but once we would dive the ship we were always able to evade them and get away and get to our patrol area, undetected. Davidson: Ok. Being that the Cold War was vastly different than any other war the U.S. has been engaged in, did it feel, in your opinion did it feel like a combat situation that a soldier would feel today? Bigger: No, no there was no...I mean you, it, I think soldiers today that are in combat situations have a little bit better, maybe a better conceptual idea of what they're doing and why, well not why they're doing it, I knew why I, why we were doing what we were doing, but sometimes you never, you didn't really feel like you were making a contribution. You were just out punching holes in the ocean...while you were underway and not really accomplishing much of anything. I think today's soldiers, that are on a combat field...they can see their accomplishments in real time...when they're out fighting for a piece of ground or...an area of a country or trying to keep the...the enemy at bay. Davidson:...Did being in the middle of the ocean have a, an effect on the fear of war that maybe those who weren't in the military were feeling? Bigger: ...I don't know...I don't think so. I think we had a maybe a better idea of what the Cold War was all about or what was going on during the Cold War era than the average person in the general population did. Many many people didn't even know that we were out there doing what we were doing. I think the majority of the population didn't know that we were out there doing what we were doin, being on a �patrol at 72 days at a time, submerged not seeing the sun or the stars, or smelling of a fresh breeze of air. Most people didn't, they weren't even aware that was going on and, I think most people today are not aware that that's going, that's still going on today. Davidson: ....So, after, you said you did six years. What year were you discharged from the... Bigger: 1980. July 1980. Davidson: And was there a reason that you decided, not to continue on in the Navy? Bigger: Yeah, there was...I used to...board the, the bus in New London, Connecticut before we would drive to...New Haven or Hartford, rather to get on an airplane to fly over to Scotland and I would watch, I was single, I wasn't involved with anybody romantically for that period of time and I used to sit on the bus watching my crewmates who were saying goodbye to their families or...and I would be sitting on the bus crying watching them and their families crying because we knew we were gonna be gone from home for 95 to 100 days and wouldn't see eachother...so, the, I, I did not want to put someone else through the same thing, you know, a wife or a girlfriend I didn't wanna put them through what I was seeing my crewmates and their families going through, and, so I, it was mainly the family separation that I didn't wanna continue and...that was my main reason for not making a career out of the Navy. Davidson: Ok...what did you do after being discharged, leaving the Navy? Bigger: Initally I got a job working for the Department of Defense at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, New Hampshire working on submarines that were up there going through overhaul, long term like year, year and a half overhaul. Davidson: Ok. How is your time, how did your time in the Navy effect you to today or has it affected you? Bigger: Well 1 think it helped, it helped me tremendously from a...personal maturity point of view-helped me grow, as a person, as an individual, learn how to be on my own, care for myself...fulfill all of my own personal responsibilites, things that you don't normally have to do when you're living at home with your parents and not living on your own and making your own way. So it helped me grow alot and I developed some great friendships while I was in the military. Had some great, wonderful mentors that were ahead of me in the ranks...you know, just helping me grow as a person. Davidson: Are you still in contact with anyone that you served with? �Bigger: A few. I am with a few of them. I actually created a website on the internet for the boat I was on...and I've gotten contacts from hundreds of, of people who served aboard the Stonewall Jackson. Not all of them while I was on board, but I've also heard from a fair number of my former crewmates that were on the boat the same time I was through having set up the website and...getting emails from them. So yeah, I still hear from a fair number of them. Davidson: ...The Stonewall Jackson was that the name of the...submarine you were on? Bigger: Yes, USS Stonewall Jackson SSBN 634. Davidson: Is it still in commission? (cut off by answer) Bigger: She was decommisioned in 1995. Sad day. Davidson: Ok...do you think the Navy has changed since you left and if so how do you feel it has? Bigger: I think its mission has changed a little bit, not having the, the major adversary of the Soviet Union but still needing some sort of deterrent..available and capable, I know its, its missions as far as working with...insertion teams-ground forces and getting ground forces into...locations in a very covert and, and hidden way has grown since the collapse of the Soviet Union. So yeah I think their role has changed somewhat since I left the Navy. Davidson: Ok...what would you tell someone or what advice would you give someone who was interested in joining the Navy? Bigger: ...Get...get a college degree and get in the officer ranks. Davidson: Ok...is there anything else you would like to add? Bigger: No Davidson: Ok. Thank you very much. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c8db7455b644781fd0cab399814efedd.mp3 f859692d4dccb96da437212251f9ad2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bigger, Nathan Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Davidson, Dwayne Interview Date 3/11/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:18:03 File name 2013_063_Bigger_Nathan_interview 2013_063_Bigger_Nathan_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nathan Bigger, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Davidson, Dwayne Bigger, Nathan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 6 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Bigger, Nathan Veterans Cold War United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Nathan Bigger served in the US Navy during the Cold War Era. He went to Mate A-School in New Hampshire and then spent 6 years patrolling underwater aboard the submarine Stonewall Jackson. He explains that many people had no idea what was going on during the Cold War, and at times even the people serving the military were not sure what they were doing, or what their contribution was. He decided to leave the navy in order to have a family because he saw how hard it was for his crew-mates to leave their wives and children for months at a time. Cold War Era Mate A-School Nathan Bigger Stonewall Jackson submarine US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e5e5be276a8ddf7b3333fbb48758fe47.pdf d912d202c63d7e0c8feb84c832be75f0 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Bill Downs 13 October 2011 BD: Bill Downs RC: Rachel Crisp BD: September 14, 1931. RC: Where were you born and raised? BD: In a small town called Pinetops, North Carolina. RC: Where is Pinetops? BD: That’s near Tarboro and Wilson, between the two of them. Actually it's in the triangle between Wilson, Tarboro, and Rocky Mount. RC: What branch of the service did you join and what was your rank when you left the service? BD: Well, I joined the United States Navy and whenever I was discharged four years later, I was an E6 sonar man first-class. RC: I didn't know that. Can you tell me a little bit about Edwards Military Institute? BD: (Laughs) I can tell you a whole lot because I went from second grade through junior college there and I was not living in the barracks with the other kids...because I was one of the few, probably the only male on the campus that was living with their parents on the campus. So, therefore, I had the run of five campuses. There were two little girls' schools, the first through the fifth grade... or kindergarten through the fifth grade and sixth, seventh, and eighth grades. And then they had a high school and junior college for girls, and the commercial college. And with the boys, they had a junior barracks, the kindergarten through the eighth grade, and ninth through the twelfth, high school, and two years of college. And so I lived in whatever facilities that they had for us there on the campus at the school. Sometimes it was in an old abandoned dorm, one time in a dispensary, or the hospital (laughs) on the campus. And just, one was a farm ranch; I mean a farmhouse, that some of the migrants…not migrants, farm laborers lived in. We just moved and moved and moved (laughs). RC: Jack Lucas, who was the youngest Medal of Honor recipient for World War Two. BD: Yes. 1 �RC: He went to school with you, right? BD: Well, he was, he may have been... yeah, that would be World War Two. He was in the Marine Corps and he had been a cadet at the junior barracks whenever I was over there. I went over there, and would go marching with them and would go wherever they were going and all, but I didn't wear the uniform until I was in the seventh grade. But all the other students lived in the dorms. And so, I was probably a tenth grader before there was another “outsider” male in any of my classes. RC: And that was Jack? BD: No, Jack was at the junior barracks and he was the commanding cadet officer over there. RC: Okay. BD: He was the cadet major when he was 13 years old. He was an eighth grader or when he was 15. I don't know how he got away from the campus but he went and presented himself as an 18 year old and entered the Marine Corps. He was a pretty robust young man. RC: So he looked like he was old enough? BD: Oh, he'd convinced them that he was. And I mean he had all the significant signs [laughs] that he was that age. I mean he was a big, overgrown child and whenever they found out in the Marine Corps, he'd already gone through his boot camp and had got to Pearl Harbor when they realized that he was not 15 years old. So they put him in the brig and while he was in there, opportunity came, he found a way out. And he stowed aboard a troop transport. RC: Full of 5th Marines, right? BD: What? RC: Fifth Marines? BD: I don’t remember which group it. I guess that was it. But he went with them and I believe it was the battle of Okinawa or Iwo Jima. RC: It was Iwo Jima that he won the Medal (of Honor) for. BD: Ah, okay, Iwo Jima. And while he was there he...they got under close combat with the Japanese and they were throwing hand grenades into the foxhole where he was... or in that area. I think that he pulled... I know he pulled two, if not three, underneath him and smothered them. Of course they exploded, but they were not nearly as powerful as the current hand grenades. But he had shrapnel from his toes up in his neck and I saw him after he came back and after he had received the Congressional Medal of Honor. He came over to the junior barracks and I think I 2 �was probably 14 or 15. I just heard he was over there (laughs) and I went over there to see him. And he pulled off his shirt and let me see the shrapnel (laughs). RC: Wow. BD: Jack had a girlfriend over at the girls' school and she was at our table, my mom's and dad's table where...the same table where I ate. She was assigned to it so I had a double identity with his girlfriend and him. But he did not marry her. I don't know who he did marry (laughs). He wound up down in Texas, I think it was. RC: Wow. BD: But Jack appeared in the Congress of the United States when one of the Presidents was having his State of the Union. The President had him stand up there and I said, "I knew that fella." (laughs). RC: So, being at Edwards…you grew up around the military, obviously… BD: Yes. RC: What made you decide to join the Navy? BD: I had part of one semester at Wake Forest and two of the young men who were in the same house that we were renting rooms in, they were not dorms, I mean, they had dorms, but they had overflowed, so we were renting a room in a house. The last time I saw either one of these fellas, they had been World War Two hospital corpsmen with the Navy. Did you know that the Navy hospital corps supplied medical attention for Marines? RC: Hmm. BD: And so, last time I saw them they were wearing the marine greens. When I went into the service at age 19, I had been sent to San Diego, and about...I don’t know what week it was, maybe the fourth or fifth, they'd already got the grades back on your...sort of like intellect IQ (test) or something (laughs). Then placed you into an occupation. I had expressed an interest in electronics. I had been tested down in Wilmington and though I got all the questions right on my application for the Navy, I didn't score so high on this because I'd never had a physics class and didn't know what they were talking about when they asked about resistive capacitors. They did qualify me for that but they told me, "Well, what would you think about being a hospital corpsman?" I said, "I like a dry bunk and three squares a day. That’s why I joined this outfit. I didn’t want to get put out there on the ground." He said, "Well, I've got one here that you’d be interested in. I've got a 12-month school in San Francisco at Hunter's Point. I think you can make it in fire control school." I didn't know what a fire control man was and I thought in fire control they were going put you down in the fire room, going to be an engineer down there and you couldn’t see daylight and I didn’t want to go down 3 �there (laughs). And so I said, "I don’t think I'd like that." But he said, "I can get you in sonar, maybe." I said, "That sounds good." And so as it was I got down at that time when we would go out on trials and I'd be down below after I had a six-month school. We would be down below the main deck and sometimes two decks below the main deck, operating the equipment. So I didn’t really gain any height on it until we had our own ship commissioned, when I went to sea. They commissioned it at Maryland Naval Shipyard. I had been in the Navy not quite two years whenever they sent us up there. I was the first non-rated man, I was a seaman. I just knew I was going catch all the dirty work until my other shipmates...the other sonar men, we had five of us going into the same ship. And so I wasn't lonesome, I knew who was with me (laughs). RC: Yes. BD: But, that’s how I got into sonar. RC: So, I guess it was kind of dark on ship…being down there. BD: Well, there was no outside light. RC: Yes. BD: And whenever they darkened ship at night and after we had Taps play, you didn't even have any lights in the compartment except just the exit lights and maybe some type of low light. You couldn't sit there and read or play cards or anything. RC: Yes. BD: So, it was a unique experience. I wouldn’t take anything for it. My whole career at sea, after I was assigned a ship, was on the USS Vammen. It was a destroyer escort, number 644. I think now it's probably been converted into some razor blades or something. Anyway, they abandoned it, but it had been in World War Two and re-commissioned. We had been reequipped and had top of the line sonar equipment. All of it. Everything on it had a serial number 1 or 1a or 1b or something. And, I mean, we were the envy of the rest of them because they put us on the same level with the bridge...our sonar shack. I could open the hatch from our underwater battery plot, and I could see daylight. And if I wanted to get somewhere out near the bridge, I could see daylight out through (laughs) the pilothouse. But, as sonar man even when I was a seaman first class, I still was being assigned for every detail except sonar, submarine, anti-submarine warfare to report to the bridge. I was put on the engine order telegraph, which meant I operated the signals to the engine room regarding what engines to either back up or go forward and all I was doing was just accepting the command from the captain. My first experience on the ship was…I had never pulled a watch there, but they came in and got me out of the sonar shack and said come on out here, we need somebody to operate these. I don’t 4 �know why they didn't have any, but they got me out there and the captain gave me a call. We had 195 turns on the propellers. We were getting ready to do a depth charge, a pattern of seventeen 300-pound depth charges, and were going to check the watertight integrity of the ship. Here they put me out there to relay the commands to the engine room, and I had to repeat what the captain gave me. He’d gotten up to 195 turns on it and he said, "Increase turns five...five turns," and I repeated it. I reached over and grabbed the first number to my left, I put two on it. And so it would look like 295 to the people down there and then I was going to put the two zeroes on it. And it wasn't but seconds until the captain was in there and he wanted to know, "Who the hell is on this machine?!" (laughs) That’s what he said! I thought, man this is it. I mean, I'm before the captain! And the executive officer had told me what to do and he just said, "Calm down, Bill. Calm down." I didn’t take the captain on, but I did put an oath on him and responded with an oath. I said, "Well, 195 and 200...195 and five are 200." That's when the executive officer said, "Just lay off, Bill," (laughs) and so, from then on I was attached to that. Every time we went to ammunition replenishment to transfer the sick and highlights, the lines for cargo. I was on the engine order telegraphs and even as a first class petty officer. It was a unique experience. RC: So, where were you? I mean, I know that you were in Korea. BD: Yes, we sailed to San Diego was basically our homeport. We were commissioned in Maryland at a naval shipyard and Vallejo, California. And I was there six months before they commissioned us. In San Diego I think the 5th Naval District or something and that was our homeport. From time to time we came back and were in such places as Long Beach, California. We were there in the yards one time and on our way over the first time we were going to Korea, we ran into a school of porpoises or something and they damaged both of our sonar domes. They hadn't had that frequency before and they all decided that these fish were going to come and investigate. I mean we were in the middle of a school of them. And they broke the dome on our sonar and our sister ship who had the same type of sonar equipment. I don't know if any of the other ships were injured. They put us both in the dry docks at Pearl Harbor and we were there when the battlewagons were in repair. It was big enough to hold an aircraft carrier and maybe two submarines, just space-wise (laughs) and our little ships in there, didn’t make a shadow in there, it was that big. It was a real interesting thing to be there for 30 days before they got to the dome and all. I mean they didn't have any backup parts for it, you know? RC: Yes. BD: They replaced that and we went on to Japan and then to Korea and that was like six or seven months tour over there, that particular time. We came back to the states and by that time I was a third class petty officer, an E4. Whenever we were getting ready to go the second time, they sent us up to carry an ammunition ship, to escort it, and I couldn't figure out why in the world our 5 �divisions…four ships in our division. All of the destroyer escorts were assigned to this ship. The thing was sitting so high out of the water that it looked like it was carrying no cargo and here's an ammunition ship with us with it. We got over to Japan and we wouldn’t stay over two or three days in a port until they moved us to another one. We went to Kobe, Sasebo, Yokahama, Yokosuka (laughs) and all around there. I went over a month without mail catching up with us and I got my Christmas cards on Christmas Day. It was an exciting thing but also a depressing one because my oldest sister had her first child during that time and the child died within 48 hours. It was a Godsend because the child was severely deformed, that is, didn’t have any bones, which are continuous bones. It was just one bone in her arms and webbed hands and webbed feet and yet she wrote me one of the sweetest, compassionate letters that I ever had. She was just thanking God for having given her a child that she could claim as her own. That was a unique Christmas gift that year while we were sitting in Sasebo. Then we pulled duty in Korea waters. Most of the first month we were there or so, we pulled the rest of the ships in our division in Wonsan Harbor, which is up in the area of North Korea that they had overrun. We were blockading the harbor to prevent their shipping, that is, military equipment and all in there. While we were working with English, Canadians, and Australians on these group exercises, not exercises…but assignments. We would have to pull back and permit the sailing vessels who were carrying merchant ships who were flying the English flag...British flag, let them come into the Wonsan Harbor. It was the goofiest feeling under the sun, that here we were blockading and shooting Sampans and being bombarded by the guns all around there but whenever they came in we would permit people that were doing business with them. You didn't know if they were carrying copper wire or whether they were carrying ammunition or anything else. RC: Yes. BD: And they were merchant maritime ships. It was a goofy thing. RC: So if they were flying the right colors you couldn’t stop and search them? BD: No, no, no, we were ordered to permit them in. I mean it was sort of like doing business with the enemy. Very much like our combat in these more recent ones where nobody was committed to winning and had all the politically correct things that they did. RC: Yes. BD: But we had a unique thing to happen there while we were assigned to that first tour. We went up on the coast of Korea, all the way up to Vladivostok, off the coast of Russia. I don’t know why they sent us up there because they didn't officially have a war with Russia. But it was cold (laughs) and when we were coming back from that area our captain, or one of the crewmen spotted it. 6 �We pulled in to about 1000 yards or 2000 yards from the shore and were going to shoot projectiles at a train engine (on land). We got one or two loads up there (in our guns) and they (the Russians) already pulled it back into the tunnel where they had it hidden. It was a decoy to lure us in. They turned loose with 155 mm, 120 mm, and 90 mm guns. They were radar controlled and all our little old guns (laughs) were hand cranked things and would get the asthmas, or the degree for the shots, from the fire control men. Our radar did not control the guns. RC: Yes. BD: They were hand-loaded and they didn't even have a turret around them like the 5-inch guns, we were 3-inch that you would put the stuff out there by hand and plug it. Actually when we got under fire we had a movie going in the crew mess hall and the captain didn’t even call General Quarters. He left one crew there and the rest were watching the movie in the crew's quarters. They didn’t even call it off. I mean if they lobbed bombs into there, we would have lost like 60 or 80 men. RC: Is that just because he didn’t think that there were any… BD: No, no. He was getting the ship out of there and he just put it into flank speed, which is maximum. If he hadn't been a masterful seaman we would have been gone out there because they were lobbing those shells within 90 to 120 feet of us…the explosives. RC: Yes. BD: He cut to where they had just laid down their last one (shell). The radar was calibrating on…calculating on the basis of our last move. And so where they had fired the previous one, we zigzagged out of there and ran for about 20 minutes or more. We couldn't even reach shore with our two little popguns. We didn't even have a machine gun. Didn’t have anything but side arms and some soldier arms and those two three-inch guns. And yet, whenever we got on the other side of Korea, we went all the way up the Yellow River into China. We ran blockade for Sampans over there. We had a translator on the ship; a South Korean we knew was our ally. If we captured anybody he would interrogate him aboard ship. One night we had one that they brought out to us. They had captured this man and had shot him. He was in sad shape. They brought him into the officer’s mess hall and did surgery on him, the hospital corpsman. The first class chief corpsman did surgery on this fellow, and stopped the bleeding. He was transferred, but the thing…we were here rescuing somebody who looked like he was dead and we’re going to put him in our hospital. There were little things that you didn’t ever understand but they were a unique part of it. I thoroughly enjoyed my career and what I did, even when I was in sonar school. We had access to so many places and when we got liberty, or got the weekend off. We didn’t get those weekends off but we did have to sign aboard ship. I got to visit all over California on weekends. I was 7 �accessible to my sister up there in Vallejo, California and her family. And I really had some precious moments with them because I only had time to see them once every two or three years. RC: Yes. BD: I got to see all the way up to Russian River in California just by having family out there and they would take me for trips. RC: When you were out there, did you have shore leave? BD: Oh, well, like I said, we went to so many different ports in Japan. Sasebo, I guess was probably the most frequent one we went to. It was a rather unimportant one but the Navy had a lot of ships there and it was accessible to Korea. It was on the southwest side of Japan and like Tokyo, Kyoto…that's a part of the aging process (laughs) at 80, I'm entitled to forget some things. Sometimes it's convenient, but we got to travel to Tokyo several times. One time a shipmate of mine, a fellow sonar man and I went up there. They were our enemy just four years before…and here they were, open arms, hands extended to receive whatever cash we had (laughs). RC: Yes. BD: But they had some of the most fantastic tour guides…riding rickshaws, you know, pedal ones? RC: Yes. BD: I remember a fellow from Midland, Texas. He and I went through sonar school together and were aboard ship together all the way to the day we were discharged. RC: What's his name? BD: Phil Roberts. He contacted me after over 50 years since we saw each other on our day of discharge. He got on a kick to meet up with his old buddies and collect his shipmates (laughs). He knew I was going go to Wake Forest, so he got from them the information that they had for William Downs. Wake Forest had two or three of us with the same name (laughs). They were not any kin to me, but they had the files. Someone said here is a minister in North Carolina. He contacted me and the first thing he said, "This is Phillip Roberts and I'm trying to get up with Bill Downs." I said, "Phil!" (laughs) He and his wife have been to visit Faye and I twice and we even had greetings this Christmas from them. I can still remember the wedding gift that he sent me and your grandmother. RC: Really? BD: Yes. It was a great big old frying pan, an electric frying pan. The biggest one that I ever saw. 8 �RC: Did you guys get in all kinds of trouble up there in Japan on shore leave? BD: No, I never got on report for anything (laughs). RC: I can’t believe you weren’t thrown in the brig for something! BD: After three years they gave me a Good Conduct Award. And that's a misnomer because all that meant was you hadn’t had to go up before the captain or have any charges brought up against you. I sort of kept my nose clean. I did not engage in after-hours leave. And I don’t care to relive any of that right now (laughs) particularly not before my granddaughter! RC: Wow. BD: But we got to go to places like the Shinto shrines and some of those things in places like 1400 to 1600 years old. I meant just to go to Kyoto and then later on to go to Tokyo, which became the new capital. Kyoto was the first capital. There's so much there, that was an emblem of it being the nation's capital. They moved the new one to Tokyo and they took the same letters of Kyoto and used it to name Tokyo. I don’t know what any of those words mean, but we got to go there and to Yokohama and to the other one that was bombed by the atomic bomb. I got to see the ruin that was still left there and that was eye-opening. I think they probably still have in Hiroshima the way it was then. They still had a chimney from an old medical college...sort of like the “Leaning Tower of Pisa.” It was warped that way with the atomic bomb. It was one of the things that were left there. The medical school over there had some type of shell still left. It looked like it'd been a domed building maybe three or four stories high and everything around there had been incinerated. During World War II we flew bombers there to destroy an ammunition factory or something using torpedoes or shells. It was a devastated area. We got the people in there; you could see that they were scarred. And yet they were just as sweet as they could be…they had forgotten that we had been enemies. RC: So this was '51? '52? BD: It was '52 and then of course I was back in there again in '54 for another tour. I can't remember dates, but anyway we were back over there a second time while we were still having to run gun blockades and still having to dodge floating mines, acoustical mines, and pressure mines. There were times they would be floating by out there and lookouts would spot them and backup so they wouldn't drift in to us and they would put riflemen out there to explode them. RC: Yes. BD: So it was a… RC: So that was off the Japan coast? Or was that... 9 �BD: That was off the coast of Korea. RC: Oh, okay. BD: Japan though, they were open arms to us. They were very congenial. RC: Tired of war? BD: What? RC: They were tired of war? BD: Yes. And they were grateful that we didn't drop another bomb on them, because they had seen what war could do and they lived with it and desired to have peace. RC: Yes. BD: They really were relieved, just about every one of them I met. I didn’t ever meet up with anybody who treated us hostile. But one thing still haunts me…and I think probably the reason that I'm sympathetic with people who don’t have anything...is I was waiting for a boat out to all the other ships; the last boat of the evening. I was standing there with another shipmate and we both had an egg sandwich. When I got to the crust of the sandwich I threw the crust, and maybe some residue of the egg into a trashcan and two grown men were fighting over that piece of bread. I realized just how impoverished so many of them were. You could get anything you wanted for a pack of cigarettes in port or on board ship. They would sew your clothes, put on your stripes, and shine your shoes. Anything! RC: Yes. BD: Just for a few yen. A pack of cigarettes that cost me six and a half cents a pack, I could get a whole carton for 65 cents, because we didn’t have to pay taxes on them. That's when I really developed a habit (laughs) I was 19 years old before I ever started smoking. I could afford that. Anytime I wasn’t asleep or eating or standing the watch, I usually had a cigarette. That was pretty much the way of so many of us. RC: Yes. BD: I didn't really take up the habit of drinking coffee like some of them did. But I learned afterwards. RC: See, I find that hard to believe since you like your coffee now! BD: Well, the thing of it was, I'd seen these fellas in there who were in Korea and they’d go around holding their backs when they were walking. You know. Their kidneys were damaged from 24-hours a day coffee...particularly whenever you were under general quarters. I mean, 10 �there were times where you would be out on exercises and you may stay under general quarters conditions for 36-hours or more. Sometimes it was actual things instead of just exercises. But, on one occasion when we were going over, we were going from Sasebo down to Hong Kong. We had a Russian submarine that surfaced within about 300 feet of us on our port side. They came by and we waved at each other. When we left San Francisco we got a contact…it was identified as an echo from a submarine. It was a solid echo back. It was not a whale or something…they make some noises that let you know that they are porpoises. They followed along with us for I think 36-hours...something like that, and it decided to leave us. We didn’t pursue it because we didn’t have any authority to challenge the submarine. But we sent code, American code, and we would try to send a message to it and ask him to give us their call letters or something or identify himself. But they wouldn’t answer us. But this (submarine) crew up on the deck and were waving at us. I thought this was a crazy war. We never did declare a war against Korea, yet we lost 37,000 men. It's still not considered a war. They just called it a “police action.” But I did have one shipmate that was killed. He was assigned on temporary duty to our sister ship and they took a shell...a projectile into their fire room, which is where the boilers are and it burst a 440-pound line. You can imagine what the super heated water felt like. When it was ruptured they were just like steam crabmeat…it was a tragic thing. He had been just put over there for 60 days of temporary duty and that was the only one we had aboard there from our ship that was killed. The only one we had on there who got a Purple Heart was a boy from Alabama. He and I used to go on liberties together. He was a clean-cut kid, he was straight-laced. We had our bunks in the same compartment with the deck force and the gunner's mates. When we were commissioned and I went aboard ship we were at operations with radar and radiomen and we'd stand watches with them even over there in Japan. The first time in Korea for the radar men. We would go in there and help them with the plotting and relaying messages to the Marine emplacements in Wonsan Harbor. They would give us requests for the coordinates for bombarding the Koreans. They chased a rabbit pretty far (laughs) but we got under fire in Wonsan there one night they got a little extra ammunition and they just decided to give us a thrill and we had to lay down. We had several times to lay down smoke screens because they didn’t have the type Russian guns that they did up there as when we were coming back from Vladivostok area. I assume that they were North Koreans. They might have been Chinese. But anyway, when we got under fire that night we had an executive officer who was being sent back to the states whenever we would get to port, two or three days later he was going be sent back for his discharge. He had been called up as a reserve, and he didn’t want to go back, he wanted to stay in. But when we got under so much fire that time, and they were just emptying their guns, it was like being fish in a bowl, the captain was in his officer's quarters and he gave a call up to the bridge 11 �and said, "Put the officer of the day on. What kind of a sailor would run from a fight?" He came up and took the command and relieved this man who was the executive officer (laughs) and just days later he was going out. I had two captains on there, both of them finished in the top five in their class at Annapolis. They were the first ones that we had on our first trip over to Korea. One of them got to announce the winner of the election between Stevenson and Eisenhower and when he got on the PA, he announced that the winner was Eisenhower. You could tell it in his voice he was excited about it happening that way because Stevenson was a Southern democrat from Tennessee and here Eisenhower was the big hero of Europe and had a chest full of ribbons. Everybody liked Ike. He would bring us sandwiches out there and things of this nature. If we were in port he would come by and see that we were cared for…he was just a real champion. We had any number of those. My anti-submarine warfare officer was a fellow, Couch, from Alabama. The University of Alabama, Bama Tide. We had another officer from Texas; just about as raunchy (laughs) they were real happy people. They would play tricks on one another and one of the most notorious ones I knew was that this officer from Southern Cal, who had been on the rowing team down there, he was a prankster. He was always getting calls down from the captain and he got up one night... he was on duty and he was going down to call his relief to wake him up. We were edgy when we were in waters with floating mines. This was after we had seen the train. He took a flashlight and he came to his relief and turned it on and came right at him and he said: "LOOK OUT FOR THE TRAIN!" When he did, the fellow officer jumped up and he hit his head on the bunk above it and the captain of course found out about it. He restricted him to the ship for three or four days. But they were all friends of mine. We didn’t go on liberty with them, because that was a “no-no.” But aboard ship we were just another one with them. It was enjoyable. When I was there in the sonar gang we had a real skillful man who was our senior petty officer and had 18 years in. He had been an instructor at the sonar school and out in the fleet and he was well respected by many of them out there because he'd trained them. He was sent back and assigned other duties and at that time I was second and I later advanced to first-class and I was the senior petty officer in the sonar gang. I got within two months of the time I was supposed to be discharged, they sent a chief sonar man there...one rating higher than I and he came in there with a chip on his shoulder. He was a pain in the neck. He would go into the chief’s mess hall and would get up and leave him. They wouldn't even sit in there and eat with him. He was just ornery. RC: Yes. BD: He came up there one day and I was having the 8pm-12am watch that night on the quarterdeck. We were in port at this time he said, "Downs, come out here. I'll take you up here on the quarter…up on the deck, and you can help me rig a stage. And clean the sides of the underwater battery plot and the sonar shack." We were having some kind of inspection the next 12 �day. Phil Roberts was with me in our sonar shack. We were the only two in there and so whenever he said that to me, Phil went over and turned the latch on to the thing that locked it through the bolt on the door, so nobody could come in. And I didn't ask him why. But this man kept mouthing off to me and I told him I said, "Look, I'll go out there and help you rig it and help you bring the water and cleaning materials but I'm not going over that side. You've had all day to get one of these seamen to go out over the side. Whatever it takes, but I'm not going over. You get out there and I'll hand it to you." And that's when Phil was certain we were going go to fists with each other. This man would challenge everybody under the sun. But that day with two of us in there and the door locked, he didn't challenge. I said, "Phil, what in the world did you do that for?'' He said, "I thought you were going to get in a fight with him and I was going swear that he took the first punch at you and we weren't going have anybody to swear otherwise." He was going to bear testimony to the fact that this chief had taken me out on it. But he went and got some seaman apprentice and stuck him over the side to clean the thing. This was already past the work hours and he'd decided then that it was time to do something that he'd been told to do that morning or something and he was going put on me. He was indebted to me because he didn’t know the equipment that we had. He had never even worked with it when he was assigned to us. He didn’t know how to maintain it and they had to get ready to go back to Guam. They were going to Guam so I was working on my equipment, tuning it and checking the supplies and things for us. I guess he decided that he would eat crow and we didn’t really have a congenial relationship after that, but he didn’t ride my back again. I'm not trying to say I was an antagonist, but I just had all of him that I could take [laughs]. I can still remember one night, we had a young man in our compartment, after they moved us from the operations division, and they put us in the gunnery division... all the sonar men were in the gunnery division, now you imagine! The reason they did it was because we had to maintain our depth charges and the head thrown weapons and forward patterns for weapons and things. We had to maintain them so we had to work with the gunners' mates because we had to take the primers out of the depth charges. The depth charger was fragile, because your hand friction could set those things off. It was pretty highly explosive stuff. So they put us in the gunnery division and we were in there with the deck force...that's the boats and gunner's mates. We had had a compartment just for the operations division and they put us in there with all the engineers that came through the same compartment. So I got to know everybody on that ship. The first time they sent us over there, when they commissioned the ship, it could accommodate 187 men and maybe something like 15 or 17 officers. But they assigned us over 300 on that thing. All of them didn't have bunks, you know, it's sort of like being on a submarine where there're hot bunked. 13 �You get out and somebody else gets in. It was a mess for that first trip over there. I mean, we had over 100 more people on that thing than what we were entitled to. I don't remember now, but it was a whole lot. I made some friends there. I have had three of them to contact me. Two of them came to visit me. And some of those fellas are trying to write a history. It was a unique experience, all of it. And I'm glad I was there because it made possible for me to come back and finish my college education. RC: Yes. BD: And it pretty well covered my expenses. If I had gone ahead with my medical school…I was accepted in '57, the fall of '57, and I left in about February of 1958. I would have been in the class of '61. I had all of that taken care of by my GI Bill, basically. But what happened…when I withdrew, being under duress to do it, they considered that I had abandoned college. If you were out over three or four months or something in your studies in pursuit of your degree, you lost your GI Bill. And I didn’t have enough money to continue. RC: Yes. BD: And that's how I left med school and the Lord called me to something else. RC: Well, I was going to ask…did your time in the service have any influence on you becoming a minister? BD: I'll tell you what. I've never had any experience that I didn't see entering into plans for my life. I meant by that that the two most influential courses that I ever took as far as strengthening my convictions about my Christian faith, was the study of embryology in preparation for school. When I came back out of the Navy in January of 1956…'55 (laughs) I'll get it right in a minute...when I came out in '55, I had less than a week at home before I enrolled at Wake Forest. I couldn't enter into the chemistry courses...basic chemistry courses because they didn't have a first semester course, so the chairman of the biology department was my faculty advisor and he said, “I see that you want to go to med school. You're going to need two courses and you can do that this semester, embryology and comparative anatomy. Both of them were rigorous classes and I thought…I don’t need to think about this when this man is the head of the department. He will have to okay the recommendations in med school for the biology department. Actually you had to go to the chairmen of biology, chemistry, and physics, and get departmental interviews with the faculties and a composite recommendation for med school. So I took him at his word and I got in the class and took embryology and that was one of the most revealing courses I ever took. The first trimester of pregnancy was not only the discussion of the growth that was happening but the microscopic scale of the human embryo in the first trimester of pregnancy. When I encountered that passage of the scripture from the psalms that said we are fearful and wonderfully made…everything I saw gave me insight to nature, as well as, in babies and everything else. So we're God's children. 14 �Then I took neuro-anatomy in med school. That’s the whole nervous system, the special senses and all. You study the human eye and the human ear, taste, the special senses. I don't know how anybody can accept Darwin's theory on the birth of a child. I don't...it boggles my mind that they could swallow whole the theory of evolution because there’s too much evidence of a divine hand in the creation of a child. I believe with all my heart the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis. That that's the way the Lord intended it to be…that he honored us by giving us privilege. So I've been a champion for opposing abortion on demand. I know what spontaneous abortion is. I saw it with Sarah Catherine and her first pregnancy. No, I'm sorry, it was probably her third. She had miscarried twice. But one of the most moving things that I had in med school was a visit to a nursing home, a rest home, with my brother-in-law who was a Baptist minister. We visited a woman…one of his parishioners from Asheville. She was probably 94 or 96 years old. Then I went as a student to an autopsy... and there was this woman that I had seen a month before. That was when I came face to face with…what I mean, that woman was ready for it. My last autopsy…there was a kid who'd endeared himself to everybody and he was fighting for life. All the nurses and doctors would come by and they cooed at him. He wasn’t an infant, he was a young child. For my last autopsy here was this little fella. That may have entered into my loss of desire to pursue (laughs) medicine. RC: Yes. BD: Its all those things that I studied there. I appreciate having studied physiology, pharmacology, and neurology. I don't feel like any of it was wasted. I have a greater appreciation for life and a greater desire to see people have quality in their life, whether it's materially or education. RC: Do you think that if you had decided to be a corpsman, it would have changed your... BD: I probably would have been drafted into the Marines if I had finished corps school. RC: Yes. BD: Because that was the big demand during that time. The corpsman. Just about anybody who was a corpsman...even a career man...they pulled time with the Marines. RC: Yes. BD: That’s the reason so many of these gentlemen received the Congressional Medal of Honor. I think one of the first recipients in the current conflicts over in Afghanistan, was a hospital corpsman with the Navy. RC: Yes. BD: But he was with the Marines… 15 �RC: D you think that if you had been a corpsman you would have finished med school or do you think you would have stayed in? BD: No, no, I probably would’ve been soured of it (laughs) if I had stayed in. RC: Yes? BD: What? RC: Yes, I can imagine. BD: We had a doctor assigned to us one time when we were...we had what they called the division commander of our division, which were eight destroyer escorts. They put him aboard our ship and so he was higher ranked than our captain, but he had command over eight ships in this division. I was going to throw out a tidbit but I can't remember now what I was chasing. See that's what I told you was going happen (laughs). I hit a snag and stop. Oh, but the doctor that we had aboard ship…he was an obstetrician gynecologist...on a ship that didn't have a woman on it! That's where the navy had put him. I got to talk to him a whole lot while I was an enlisted man. He would be out on the deck and coming around. We were not permitted to go down there just anytime during the day and he didn’t have to unless you were sick. Then they would transfer you to a vessel that could take care of you. RC: Yes. BD: He was out there and he wasn’t even in the same milieu that the rest of us were in (laughs). I don't even remember whether the fella smoked or not, but he was like a fish out of the water. You can imagine spending that much time and getting an education and doing a residency after four years of med school, an internship, three years of residency and they stick you out there on a destroyer escort with a bunch of dirty old men. Those were some of the things that I knew I didn’t want to do. RC: Yes. BD: (Laughs) But I did do vascular research so that was really not in the Navy that was after I left med school. RC: Did you do your four years in the navy and leave or… BD: No, I didn't stay in. I had an opportunity to reenlist. In fact, I was going tell you that Phil Roberts, you know, I may have mentioned, that both of us had the opportunity to apply for officer's candidate school on the basis of our rank...I mean our rating and our grades on our competitive scores. RC: Yes. 16 �BD: But no, I didn't have a desire to want to stay in there till I was 1962. I didn't want to be an admiral. RC: You would make a good one. BD: (laughs) No, I wouldn't! I'd have been an ornery cuss! I'd been so miserable with the service that by the time I got that I would have never made it. RC: You know what I've never asked you? BD: What? RC: If you’ve had a nickname? BD: Oh, I've had handfuls of nicknames. Bill's a nickname? RC: Well, yes. But I mean like... BD: When I was in boot camp, I went in there with a group of men from North Carolina. There were eight of us who were sworn in the same night. They took us right from the office in Raleigh and put us on a train and sent us to Atlanta, Georgia, and on up to San Diego. There were four of us. One of them was a student at NC State, another one had been to UNC, and one was seeking admission into ROTC at Duke. So we had a Dukey, a Tar Heel, and a Wolfpacker. And they found out I had gone to Wake Forest for the better part of one semester. They knew that my heart was there, so they got to calling me “Deacon.” Everybody in my platoon when I was in boot camp knew me because I was the mail clerk. I wasn't tall enough to be the head of my column; I had two taller men ahead of me. But I would always get sent out early to go get the mail for them and then come back and call mail. Then they placed on me responsibilities for accounting for every rifle making certain that they were all still available, that they were still in their possessions. So each morning I would go around to each bunk and see if they had their rifles and get a head count. I had a lot of opportunities so they got to calling me “Preacher Deacon.” Some of them didn't know what a deacon was so they called me preacher. I thought isn’t this something? That's how ironic…because that's where I wound up! RC: Yes. BD: But I didn't have any intentions of it. I wanted to be a doctor from the time I was six years old. I did before even my brother Posey… RC: So you wanted to be a doctor, but you went into the Navy? BD: What? 17 �RC: Was the Navy to pay for your school? BD: Well, we had what you call the GI Bill. RC: Yes. BD: And if you’d been in the military and pulled as many years in there as I did, you would have 36-months of schooling paid for. RC: Yes. BD: And I finished the rest of my college in three semesters and two summers. I went every summer session and finished in August. It was on the 11th of August, and on the 18th of August I married Patsy. I entered med school on the first day of October. So, I didn’t have any real break in over four years. RC: Yes. BD: After I came out of the Navy, I failed the six weeks portion of the three-trimester course and I knew it was going cost me a year to make it up. So I just asked for permission to withdraw. And when I applied for readmission I didn’t have the opportunity to get in. They had it filled up with transfers from other schools and from the University of Havana when Castro took over down there. So I did vascular research for 26-months and then went to work with Roche Laboratories as a medical service representative...or as a detail man as they call it. I did that for nearly five years before I went into the ministry. But all that took care of the other. RC: Yes. BD: It's sort of a circuitous way to get there. RC: Well, you got there. BD: Having gone through seminary…I came out and decided to go to truck driver training school. After I served churches for 25 years (laughs) and came to Johnston Community College here in Smithfield, I finished my eight week course...eight hours a day...40 hours a week, driving trucks and tractor trailers. I got my class ACTL there at age 59 (laughs) and so I spent those last seven years of employment driving for hire. My first job was with a company hauling rock and asphalt. And sometimes I would make over 76 hours, that was the most I ever had in one week. Some of drivers had as much as 92 hours in a week. They didn't have to keep a log that you have to for interstate trucking. As long as you could stay out there and drive a truck they were paying, you could stay out there and work. So I did that and then whenever they decided to shut down for winter because they didn’t have the equipment that they do now for keeping the asphalt warm, they let us all go. The ones that 18 �were hauling asphalt, they just kept a few of them to haul other handling that they had for removing trash or whatever it was. But I got a job with the florist and my job with them was with a wholesaler. After about three months of that, I went to work with them for 90 days or so. One of the customers told the owner not to send me there anymore. They said I was rough-handed with the flowers and she spent time picking out the ones she wanted, she didn’t want me to bruise them (laughs). So I had to find me a job. I went over to the Mayflower Trucking Company and the man who was my first driving instructor; he went with me on my first trip in a truck. He had gone to work with them in charge of the drivers with the fleet and hired me. I was the oldest one in my class and because he was too young, he was 19, and I was 60 (laughs). Mutt and Jeff or the white headed man and the kid. It was a neat experience. I worked for them and the City of Raleigh. I've done a little bit of a lot of things. Never was master of any of them. But I love my youngins and my grand-youngins and I’ve got a whole heap of them. Faye and I received grandchildren and great-grandchildren and children from all over the world. They’ve asked us to be their papas and mamas and grandparents. RC: Yes. Well, is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven't touched on? BD: Well, I didn't tell you about my sporting. I did play...did go out for football in sonar school. RC: You did not! BD: Yes I... I didn't tell you about it? RC: No! Tell me about it. BD: While I was in sonar school they had tryouts for it. And I had played in four football games. I went out for football and by the end of the fourth game we didn’t have enough able-bodied people out there to even go. I walked through the drills, you know, in the week. We only had 27 to start off with and we got down to where we had less than 22. We lost ten of them. We cancelled the rest of the season and so I went for an end and a place kicker. I stayed with it through the first four games of the season and realized it was a matter of cronyism. I mean, it really was. The coach had evidently been a good player for Michigan State but he was a “good old boy” with the others…some of them had been with the fleet…the first class petty officers and chiefs. He had been in there probably 12 or 15 years. Those who come back out of the fleet to go there were not necessarily in the training commands. At that particular time they had been in there…they played together. They would come out there and go through the motions. But many of them would not even come to practice. They came out there dressed on Friday night or Saturday afternoon or evening...whenever we had games. And you wouldn't see them again during the week. They knew the plays, they thought, and the old coach would put them in there. And after the fourth game I said this is a 19 �losing battle and it opened up that I could go to a ship, a destroyer escort, right in the town of Vallejo, where my sister and her hubby lived out in California. They put me in close contact with my family. So I bumped a fella who was lower-ranked in my sonar class than I get on there (laughs) and so that’s how I got on the Vammen. RC: Wow. BD: And so I mean I chose it. I mean, they gave us choices on the basis of our positions in the class. I did it because it was in Vallejo and I knew it was there and hadn't been commissioned. And it really made a difference. RC: Yes. BD: I made some lifelong friends. I've had two of them that I have maintained some contact with. Two of them were really buddies of mine went on liberties while I was in sonar school. But they were with me for two years before they went into submarines. One of them came to visit Faye and me before we were married. We were engaged. He called us from the Outer Banks and said he had never been to North Carolina before. So he said while he was here he would come by and see Downs (laughs). No, I had some fantastic buddies in the Navy that I wouldn't take anything for. That picture up there, I think I did that on my first liberty in Sasebo, Japan. The Japanese artist that used colored pencils…it looked pretty much like I did but I had a skinnier facial features and a longer nose than I think I've got (laughs). RC: I love you. Thanks for doing this with me! BD: You’re welcome. RC: An hour and thirty five minutes! BD: Oh, my goodness! RC: I could sit here and listen to you talk for another two hours if you wanted to. BD: No, I'll tell you what...Faye told me not to be verbose (laughs). RC: I would love nothing more than to sit here for another two hours and listen to you talk. BD: No, I've got all kinds of tales about my shipmates. RC: Well, if you want to tell them, I'd love to hear them. BD: (Chuckles) No, well, not for the record. 20 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2172afd028eb09ad77243b3470b872d2.mp3 ea4c2febca3e60159c697c661673ebe9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Downs, William Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Crisp, Rachel Interview Date 10/13/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:38:18 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Pinetopes, Edgecombe, Navy, Edwards Military Institute, Jack Lucas, Congressional Medal of Honor, sonar, USS Vammen, destroyer escort, Korea, San Diego, Japan, Wonsan Harbor, China, Wake Forest, Tokyo Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Downs, 13 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 Downs, William Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Rachel Crisp interviews Bill Downs about his experiences in the United States Navy during the Korean War. He grew up on campus at the Edwards Military Institute, and eventually began working in sonar aboard the USS Vammen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Downs, William Crisp, Rachel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 20 pages Language A language of the resource English Edwards Military Institute sonar US Navy USS Vammen