1 50 2 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f099e09b459432a901e78277b4b4bc5b.pdf 6587e9c67687858b8dff9e6e706be022 PDF Text Text Interview with J. F. Parker Tape 467A, Side 1 . . . Trying to get a special election in the county to improve the schools in a certain county in a district, a certain precinct of the county, and I was looking after a little county store for my brother-in-law and while he was not busy I was trying to get people to promise to vote for day the bond. He came to the store and said to me one.'i when we'd been playing checkers and I'd beat him two or three times, he said, "How would you like to teach?" I said, "Teach what?" He said, "Teach school." I said, ''Why I've not ever finished high school." He said, ''Well" says "I believe you could teach." Well that gave me a boost. I had never worked at anything where it's anything more than just common labor and fact of the matter, I'd left home when I was a boy, about sixteen, and went to work for this man. My job was not only putting in work 10 hours a day but when I got in from my work in the sawmill or in the woods, I milked the cows after dark. A lot of times I felt for something, I says, "I think the cow's out there, I felt her but I didn't see her." So that was my job and that's working for 40 cents a day and I worked all slUTITler and he owed me sixty some dollars and he didn't pay me anything. He just fed me, and I went home on Saturday night, went back to work on Monday morning and he owed me $6S. When he started to pay me, to pay me up, he said, "You know, if you worked on for me a little longer I'll pay you SO cents a day." Well at 10 cents a day, I jumped at it. that. I worked on a lot longer at ~~~~~~~~~~~~~- But in the meanwhile I was looking out for this little county store and the superintendent tried to talk me into going to teach school. I'd been away from home .thru high school. high school. Well You had to go away from home to There was no high school in McDowell County and there was an academy in the adjoining county down here known as Round Hill Academy. �2 It was supported by the Baptist denomination and was quite a prominent high school at one time. and Wake Forest. It was rated well with such places as the university They'd accept those boys and girls who came out of that school. And I had gone down there a couple of years ... and that tickled me and I said, "Yes, I'll take that!" He said "Alright, if you'll come down to Marion we're going to have an examination for those who want to teach and ------- so I come down here and I stood the examination and didn't think it was very hard, and got along pretty good 1 thought. good in arithmatic. I was always As I was really a year or two ahead of my class in that, I was always interested in that and I want to say this about arithmatic and mathematics--I have never seen a good mathematiciam who was a blllil. I have never seen a good mathematician that was a deadbeat. And I ... Of course, you say I'm trying to make you think that I'm the real thing (Laughter) because I was good in that and I went on and did the best I could in that work. So I stood the examination and the last day of the examination I was preparing to go back home and he saw me out there and he says, "Julius, come in here." I went on in there and he says, "The man here wants to hire you to teach school." And I says, "I don't know if I passed the examination or not." And he patted me on the back and said, "Don;t you let that worry you." (Laughter) He was going to send me on to teach school! Whether I knew anything · or not! somewhere. in there. (Laughter) So now he sent me He sent me back up here in these mountains and there's no roads Two-thirds of the way up there you were in the creek, you're either on this side of the creek and on that side of the creek and most of the time you're in the creek, and I finally got up there. Well I didn't know where to go to get a boarding place and I didn't know where the man lived that hired me, so I over across the field where there was a pretty rough looking place over there and I though I'd try to find out if something was over there. I told them Iw-anted a place to board. �3 The girl said to me, says, ''Well the school teachers always board with us when they're up here." I looked the situation over and it looked pretty rough but I said, ''Well, do you suppose you could keep me?" Says, "Well I guess so. Mother'll be back in a little bit. She could tell you." She came in, happy also, and says, "Yes, just come on in here and stay with us, we'd be glad to have you.'' The room that I's to, for my room, was a side room out to the side of the house and they didn't have any floor in the place. that. They'd laid plank down on the ground then put the bed kindly up on Well, you know what? I wasn't afraid of those people up there although they were some of em not much. But I wasn't afraid of those people because I'll tell you what I was afraid of. They's snakes all over the place and I was afraid to get out of bed at night on the ground. step on a snake. I was afraid I'd So I tried to stay in bed in the morning until I could see where I was going, but I never did get snake bit. But I'll tell you, that was one of my problems. I went on to school Sunday morning, Sunday school. And when I got there I hadn't quite seen anything like that that was going on there. TI1e young men and the young women had cornered off over there and the schoolhouse where they'd have preaching is about half as big as this, just a little place, hold 25 or 30 people, and these young people had cornered off over there and they kept doing something that I didn't understand what in the world was taking place. I kept watching to see what it was and I'd see em move this way and move over that away and on back around and I kept wondering, ''What's taking place here?" And after awhile I saw that they had a snuffbox, a great big old snuffbox, you know. And what they was doing, they had a stick about that long, called a toothbrush, made out of gum, and passed around to this girl and she'd put that in there and put it in her mouth and pass it on to her boyfriend and he'd put his stick in there and pass it on around. And they . . . most thing that bluffed me, I had known that people dipped �4 snuff but I didn't know it was like that. Usually, you know people chew tobacco, chew, and use snuff, they have to have a place to dispose of something. And where do you suppose they put it? On the floor. bwh r bwh! (Laughter) And I thought to myself, "My God! Just . . . bwh! Am I going to have to teach school in this place?" Well I'd gone up there like I was going to set the world on fire and I couldn't run off. My brother had carried me up there, (he) said, ''You're a fool for staying up here, let's get out of here 'fore we get killed!" I said, "No". I was staying. So :Monday morning ent over there bright and early to clean up that schoolhouse and it I w tobacco, tobacco had dried. And when I'd sweep that, it'd just, /\ you know, dust came up in my face. Well everybody up there told me about a little character who had given so much trouble that the teacher just couldn't do anything with him. He was just a little devil and there was no way anyone else could make anything out of him. looking for Avery. So I found out his name was Avery Elliot. Everybody had been telling about how mean Avery was. He'd tie the school up and he'd run you off and all like that. watching for Avery and sure morning. bit. I kept enough ~ I kept he came in with the other children one I said, ''Hello Avery." He kinda looked up at me and grinned a little All teachers were enemies of his. Of general principle, there was no teacher that was any good in his way of seeing things. of his to start with, he'd expect it. And they were enemies So I was determined that I was not going to have a fight with him. I had been a boy myself and I knew some of these things myself, you know. So I determined I was going to have trouble and I begin to try to get on the good side of him, but he wouldn't make friends. Didn't want you about. So about the second or third day of school, a little boy or a little girl one came up to me where I was behind the table up there. They said, "Avery has got a snake in the schoolhouse." I said, "Got a snake!" They said, "Yes!" I got up and went back there and says, �"Avery, where's that snake?" · (Laughter) He says, "Down here." I said, ''What are you going to do with it?" He said, ''Well, I guess I'll keep it a few days and kill it." I said, "What kind of snake is it?" He said, "Ah, it's an old moccasin." I said "That's interesting, where does those moccasins live around here?" He said, "Ah, they're up and down the creek everywhere. You can catch em any time." to do with it?" I said, ''Well, uh, what we going I says, "I want in on this thing. I want to help you see what we can learn from that snake." And he began to get interested. finally said to me, he said, "Do you like snakes?" He I said, "'No, I don't like em but," I said, "I'd like to know about them!" So we finally got to where we could make the plan that we'd get a big bottle. We'd put that sn:.ake in it and put some water in the bottle with the snake. And before we put the stopper in there, we'd cut a notch on top of that up there so he could get breath in there, and he'd have the water, and then we planned what he was going to eat. Well the whole school were complete1y· dtm1.bfounded. were surprised beyond question that I didn't take him up beat him to death 'cause he had a snake that day. by They the nap of the neck and · · We put that snake up in the schoolhouse and he said,"The eat crawfish and they eat spring lizards." "Well could we'"'catch I says, a spring lizard?" He said, ''Yes sir, I can catch one." So he went down there and caught a spring lizard and we put that spring lizard in there with the snake and put him up here on exhibition. he was my friend. From that day on I saw him not long ago at a bank here in Marion. someone call my narne--the teller or someone had called my name. ' Heard And there was .. an old, old man came over there, all drooped and face wrinkled, and asked me, he says, "Is this Julius Parker?" know me, do you?" I said, "That's right." He says, ''You don't I said, I looked at him and I said, " No, I"m sorry, I don't." He said, "I 1·m Avery Elliot". (Laughter) But the thing about it was that that kind of a school interested those people up there. And I stayed with it, I suffered through it and I had ... �SB where the teachers had been going up - and I'm a bragging on myself just a little bit - the teachers who had been going up there, they a lot of times didn't teach the school out a all but they got disgusted and just pulled up and left, and said the number of attendance there were always gotten so few that the teachers just quit and went on. But the day I left up there, in that school I had more children than I knew what to do with. Wife: We had a picture once of those, didn't we. Oh, I wish I had that picture. It'd be interesting. But those people are . different motmtain people of what I'm talking to you about than other mountain people 'cause it's a difference right here in this county when you talk about the motmtain people. There's a distinction between . . . there's different groups in the cotmty. They were hardy people. A mountaineer, a real mountain- eer, has gone through so much hard times and everything that they are toughened. It takes a certain amount of failures in life to make a person what they should be. I remember another incident about . . . Wife: Excuse me honey, tell em about the incident, said one day somebody called and said the snake was eatin a lizard. Yes! (Laughter) That's right. The snake and the lizard lived there together ever so long, about 3 weeks, 4 weeks, or maybe a month, before the snake decided to have dinner. (Laughter) Some child came to me and says, '~4r. Parker, they's eatin the lizard!" Everybody gathered up to watch him eat the lizard. (Laughter) Wife: Go ahead now. We had a wonderful school. The little children came and before I knew anything about teaching at all in those days, I figured out this: in many instances from the simple fact that they're not interested in what they're teaching. Y6u must become involved in what you teach .before you can get the pupils interested. Interviewer: teachers are a failure Arn I right or wrong? That's real true. �6 Another instance where the mountain people here, they're not easy, they're not easy to change their mind, was a few years ago, many years ago, it was about 1908 or 1909 in Rowan County there's a Negro down there by the name of Nat Crumb that tried to assassinate the sheriff of the county. to do it. He was hired And he shot the sheriff of Rowan County and they found out who it was by some means, I don't know what means, but they got after him and tried to catch him. Well he kept dodging the officers. In those days you didn't have cars., you didn't have phones, you didn't have anything like that so you could keep strictly in behind a criminal and he worked himself on into McDowell County. But pretty well scattered, they were looking for him and there was a warrant for him of $1,000 reward for his capture, He came here near Marion and they spotted him and had a shootout with the officers here and he ran the officers instead of them catching him. He ran them and he went into the woods and they were afraid to go in after him and so he kept working his way on up towards .farther and farther westward he got up here to Old Fort. Well I don't know whether you know anything at all about Old Fort or not . Interviewer: Not very much, no. Well they're a pretty tough bunch up there. people. It's a mountain town. Have always been, those mountain It was a town before Marion was ever made a mountain town, before it was ever made a town. Wife: The Indians had a fort up there. Yes, that's right. at Old Fort. And, uh. . . That's the first block where we stopped the Indians there That is from this way. Now Daniel Boone, he went from Boone back across those mountains that way but Daniel Boone never did come up this way. But anyway, Old Fort was an old, old town that has a population of 600 people, 6 or 700 people. But if you want trouble, if you're ever looking for trouble, why . . . it's available. Wife: (Laughter) What was you saying when I interrupted you? �7 So this Negro, he didn't know what he was getting in to. He had gone up there into the mountains and those people around Old Fort . . . now there's a rather odd thing about those mountain people up there, they were opposed to the Civil War. They thought that there was a mistake when the South tried to succeed from the Union. stay in the Union. They were for the Union. And they were opposed to the people who were slave owners, all this section south and east of us here. the people was :in favor of freein A Negro. Wife: They wanted to Come in Frank. And so these mountain Thi s i s our son, our farmer's son. (Laughter) We got him out on the Son: Wife: They're recording. They're recording. Well, I better hush, hadn't I? (Laughter) They were in favor of freeing the Negro but they didn't like the Negroes. They didn't want em about em. the idea? They didn't want em up there. Can you get So they wanted to free them, they thought it was wrong to do it, but yet they didn't want them. They wanted them to Sa.y out of their way. Well that feeling grew up for many years after the Civil War and this Negro who had been a shootin up these officers along the way here, he run on to Old Fort and they found that he was in that connrrunity. him. Someone had seen But at that time the Southern railway had what was called a helper. It was an extra engine that was placed at Old Fort when the train came through here with a heavy load going west. They'd hook this helper on to the train and pull it across to Ridgecrest and they they'd unhook and bring the helper back to Old Fort and wait until another train would pull up. So the people there in Old Fort was armed with everything they had, pistols and shotguns. So they's two boys, one was 17 and one was 18. One of em was named Linville Idle - that was the younger one of the two, and the other one was named Walt Porter. I think they were cousins. He was 18, I think that's the way. �8 And they were there at the depot that night, was a sittin there at the depot with their guns" ":. Well .' the engineer who was at that time running this, I ·- mean the engineer who was n.mn.ing this helper out to Ridgecrest came back from one of his trips. He'd just pulled across, he said "Lim, I saw that nigger up here on the railroad." I saw him as I went up. They said, " You don't say?" He's on the railroad." Said, "Yes, I saw him! and says--those trains as they went across there pulling a heavy load, they couldn't run fast on those heavy grades up there, you know--and "he tried to swing a train up there," says, "I'm sure he's trying to get away from here." And said "If you boys are really spunk to do it, I believe you could go up there and catch that feller tonight. l'm going back and pull # 35 across in a few minutes and I Ill take you up there and drop you off." I~ n Said, "we'll slow down, I'll have an understanding with the other engineer on the other engine." They had an engineer on each one of those steam locomotives, you know, in those days, and said, "I'll drop you off up there." Well, they made it up how they were going to do· it and so when #35 came up, that was a passenger train, he's going to pull across. These boys got on the engine with Ed Winslow and sure enough, they got to about Round Knob, that's 4 or 5 miles above Old Fort, I'll show you a picture of that directly, they saw him. Still trying to make his way across there walking and kept hoping he could catch a train to get away from here. And so as they passed by they slowed down and those boys swung out. Well, the plan that these boys had for catching him--you know you didn't have flashlights in those days, you had a lantern you know what an old time lantern was-- they decided that they would put this coat over the lantern and hide on the side of the road. And when he came up they could hear him walking. And when he came up one little. boy ·would .pull the light on him and the other one'd pull the gun on him and they'd have him. Well when they came up there, the boy that had the light in this lantern under his coat had smothered the light out and he didn't have any light. But they made a noise �9 and he said, "OH!" Like that. And when they did that they begin :.. to shoot. Now they claim they told him to halt and he wouldn't halt and they shot him, but the truth of the matter was that they shot him. whether they shot caught him. And I don't know g: running or whether they shot him, uh, when, but they Hauled;\back to Old Fort, Now you take boys of that type, motIDtain boys like that, and you can't head them off. They're determined, that stock in them was just simply so ingraded into their lives that they didn't like a Negro and they wanted a thousand dollars and that was it. But I've had other means to find out - talking about motIDtain people and the other more, possibly those who have had better opportlIDities than these mountain people have - besides these occasions to know that they are of a different background and they are interesting people. In 1928 I was working then END OF TAPE I, SIDE I when this crowd came in here from West Virginia or somewhere to organize this help at the Marion Manufacturing Company. I fotIDd that they was a marked difference in the people who were reared in these motIDtains, had moved into that village there to work,and the people who had come in here from the South and the East. We had two groups of people there and they all worked together, but they didn't think alike. So when this strike was about to come off, they had an almost even split in the people for and against the union. The people from the motIDtains, they just thought to themselves that "this has been a blessing to us that we came here and had a job." The people we~e working for have paid us very well. cash at the end of each week and we~e making a · living..'.and doing And the group that came in here from other places seemed to think that the company were thieves and taking advantage of the poor working man and getting rich. And so there's a difference in that feeling there and it developed into a very serious affair. Do either one of you know anything �10. about the strike at the Marion Manufacturing Company in 1928? Have you ever heard of it? Well it was quite a serious matter. It went on for ... finally closed the mill down and crune to the place where the people who were opposed to the union decided that they were going to work. if they could work to go work, and let them work. And the company told them they'd opened the mill and turned the power on And this group that was for the tmion, they was just as detennined they were not a going to work. line to stop them from going anywhere. 1hey put up what's called a picket Well, you can see from this standpoint that this was becomong a dangerous situation and on a certain morning and on a certain night, they tried to rtm--they were rtmning 3 shifts then--and a certain night, the night before the strikers had gone into the mill and interfered with the people who were working and tore down a lot of their work and crune very near to having a shoot out there. But the next morning, the officers were there to assist the people who wanted to work to go into the mill and this crowd was, people who were striking, were just as detennined that they were not going into the mill. Well, that was it, the sheriff was there and he told em when they gathered up around there, gangs of them 150 to 2 or 300 people, says, "now stand back, these people are going to work and you got to open this up so they can work." About that time one of the strikers had what's called a picker stick. You know what that Is? A Picker Stick? 111.at's a stick that's on a loom to knock the shuttle that away and knock the shuttle this away. knocked the sherrif down and jlllllped on him. killed him. And he off and Well when he did that, someone Killed the man that was on the sherrif. And from that, both sides went to shootin and when the fight was over, I didn't see it, it was a little before I went down to go to work, they was seven on the grotmd dead there and I don't know how many got shot up. Some of em had a bullet through their hats and some of them had bullets in their legs and everything else. down there that morning and it was kind of a sad time. Well I got Said, ''Who was killed, John?" �ll Bill was killed too. And so they was one fellow there by the name of Bill Twigs. . He was a character, he was , from back here in the motmtains. was on the side against the llllion, and he was cut all to pieces. knew where Bill got thsoe cuts on his chest and arms. And he I never Some said Bill calimed he's in the First World War and had to fight hand-in-hand with the Germans and other people told me it's not so, said he'd been fightin back here. He'd manage to get all cut to pieces. But Bill was in it and he was the one they had accused of shootin with a pistol in his hand and this story wouldn't be complete llllless you tell something about Bill Twigs. He never knew what the word "no" was. It did not make any difference what you asked him to do or if he could do it, the only word he knew was "yes". My boss talked to me about it one day and he said ' to me, he said, : You know, if I should go to Bill and say, Bill, I've got to go to San Francisco on a leave and just as quick as possible, I'm going to drive through in my car and I want you to drive £or me, Bill. Now how quick can you be ready?" Bill would say, ""In fifteen minutes!" He always got anything done in fifteen minutes. (Laughter) Bill was there that day and he had a part in that shooting and when he was tried, was tried and such a mess, never did convict or pllllish anybody for that killing. know who was guilty and who wasn't guilty. I don't But Bill was a character and I want to tell you ]ust a little bit about him because he was a molllltaineer of special interest to me. Like I said a few minutes ago, he didn't know the word "no". He's back over here till ... back in ... I think it was in Avery Collllty where Bill was from and he went to a flllleral. and Bill's telling me about it. A little girl died over there He says, "You know I went to a flllleral and they brought her to the side of the grave, the casket, said everybody just stopped and stood there. Didn't know what to do. Couldn't seem to know how �12 to proceed." Says, "I didn't lmow what they's a waiting on." Finally someone turned around, said ."I don;t believe we ought to bury her without having a word of prayer." Looked around and nobody never prayed a prayer in their lives, don't suppose. If they ever did, nobody'd heard it. Finally said to Bill, "Bill won't you lead us in prayer?" Well Bill had I reckon connni tted every crime that you could think of. And so I said to Bill, ''Well Bill, what did you do?" He said, "I led the prayer." I said, ''What did you say?" Says, "I told the Lord Mary had been a good little girl and I wanted him to take care of her." And he said, "Before I got through, I said 'We'll be along before long, better take care of us too. Make preparations for us.' " (Laughter) So I said, "Well how did you feel?" Bill said, "I felt good." And I thought to myself, ''Well it's a fime thing because it's possibly the first time you ever prayed or ever will pray!" Son: (Laughter) Oh Lord! I don't lmow what he's told you but another interesting story at ... you can't stay for a while, you could stay for three days and he'd still be talking. The flu epidemic, when he was working for Marion Manufacturing Company, just about wiped out everything back in '18. Flu epidemic was in 18? Yes. Son: Okay, That was an interesting story about you and the black fellow whose name I've forgotten. Yes, well in 1918 and 1919, there was the most deaths that I every lmew from any cause. It was the flu epidemic. talk here, heard about this flu? times of my life. Have you ever heard people in your ----- Will I think that that was one of the trying I never went through a time like that because it caught the people completely by surprise. just began to get sick. And people began to die. Nobody had warning that it was coming. The plant had to shut down, Nobody able to bury the Everyone was sick. People �13 people. To get a doctor was impossible and they's just 2 of us left. I was paymaster at that time at the mill and where we had 6 or 8 or 10 that worked in the office there, they's all out sick. 1here was one black man by the name of Hal Carson that didn't get sick and I didn't. For what reason, I don't know what I went through it because I was with it everyday. there and say,"please call the doctor. get a doctor." 1hey'd come in Somebody's going to die if you don't I'd go to the phone and try to get him but the girl at the office would say, "1he doctor can't possibly come. He's got, I guess 50 people here wanting him and he just can't possibly come. Well the first year, 32 people died in a village where the population was about 500 and the second year, the same thing with 29 died and my friends, people that I knew and everything. I told, uh, talking the other day, that I think it was the most trying time that I ever was. We hauled coal, the colored man delivered coal to them, he dilivered wood to them becasue we was selling wood and coal too along to help. The store was there adjoining the office, nobody in the store. People would come by and just want flour and meat or something to eat and I'd just dish it out to 'em. 1hey never paid for it. I kept a little record of it and went on til this dreadful epidemic was passed and I sit down and began to try to find out who owed what. Never could do anything much about it. So we just forgot it, 'cause the company I expect, spent $10,000.00 just helping the people, just for everybody. Now, those are stories connected with the mountain people. people are different. about it. 1hey've got a great background. 1he mountain There's no question But when this thing about finding out about those people, the time is so fast passing that what you called "Oral History", I understand that's where you don't have any documents or records of it--just what people says about it. It's soon going to be a thing of the past because those people are not mountain people any mote, in a sense of the word in that they are just like �14 any other people. times. I know you're tired of this. Interviewer: Son: Their children are educated and so on and it's a changing Oh no ... Tell 'em about Epler (?) Dad. Who? Son: Tell 'em about Epler. Well let me first tell 'em about ... now really and truely, when you get enough of this, be frank and say that's enough. I'm not sure we'll ever get enough, to tell you the truth Mr. Parker. Interviewer: Just either one of you say, "Well that's okay, We got enough for today." Interviewer: We don't want you to get too tired. Well, but first, I want to go back Frank and tell about this. had~been The crime corrmitted of the mountain people which is completely a closed matter. There's no way in the world ... Now for instance, what I started to tell you was this. Not long. . . Well many years ago "tis now, I was sitting one day at a desk and I wasn't very busy and I picked up a paper, a Morganton paper. At that time, the editor was Mrs. Beatrice Cobb (?) and she was the editor and I knew her in a certain way. And it was interesting to me because she had brought this out on the paper and made kind of a headline out of it and I got to reading it. And it said, in that article, says, ''We have been trying to make a complete record of the people who have been hanged in Burke County." And it said one of the famous trials and hanging was the, what? Silvers ... the name of that ... Silvers woman ... Son: Frankie. Frankie Silvers. Have you ever heard of Frankie Silvers? The only woman who was ever hanged in North Carolina for a crime and she was here in Morganton. And Mrs. (Miss) Cobbs said, "In connection with that trial, says, �15 "we ran across another hanging which took place in Burke County by the name of a man by the name of Ralph Noblett." Says, "I have searched my records here far as I know, everywhere, and I can't find anybody who knows anything about who Ralph Noblett was, what the crime was or any of the details whatsoever." But when she said Ralph Noblett, a bell rang in my brain. a person who knew about it. It happened to hit Now this crime was cormnitted before McDowell County was made a county which was in 1843 and we were at that time a part of Burke County. And so the crime was cormnitted in this part of Burke County but they carried him to Morganton to try him and that's where the trial was. So when I was a boy, a small boy, I'd say not more than 10 or 11 years old, I remember this story. There was an old lady who then was almost as old as I am now who lived over on that side of us. She had a daughter who lived over on this side of us and she walked from her home over to see her daughter occasionally and we were friends. She always stopped at our house and had lunch. she was sitting under an apple tree. And one day I can almost see that apple tree now. It was a warm day and we were sitting there and she told about the murder that Ralph Noblett cormnitted when she was a girl and even before the year 1843 this crime was corrunitted but she was a young lady at that time, or girl, and for some reason she was stmm1oned to Burke County as a witness. story of Ralph Noblett. And she told the Now it seems that there was a difficulty came up between Ralph Noblett and a man by the name of John Davis over hogs getting into the Davis' cornfield and eating up his corn. And knowing those days, can you imagine it, if you raised a corn field, you had to fence your land to keep the stock who was running in the mountains. that? You know . . . did you ever hear of So that was back in those days, so the Noblett's claimed the reason was he didn't have any fence. If he'd built a fence, it'd kept the hogs out. And he claimed that they were just downright thieves and (would) tear down any fence to go in there. And the trouble came up so one afternoon this fellow - �16 they had became such enemies, had such dreadful hard feelings for one another that this fellow Ralph Noblett decided he ' d settle it with John Davis. And he went down there somewhere and found John Davis going from his house down by the mill to feed his hogs, to feed his own hogs . He killed him, just hit him with a club, and he just came down across him and killed him and threw his body in the mill pond. Well, they caught him over in Georgia and brought him back here and tried him and that ' s where the end of it was . In those days, and I asked Frank about that the other day, they didn ' t bury that fellow, Ralph Noblett's body, take it back to the graveyard where other people were buried. But they buried it off on a lonely hillside by himself and as I used to go to school as a boy, the trail where I went by the grave of Ralph Noblett, there was a rock at the head and a foot there that ' s still standing there when I was a boy. I never passed there without feeling lonely . It felt like something about to . . . kind of sacred ground or something, I don't know what. And I went back to see about it several years ago and see if I could find that grave and long trees was standing there, that big arolilld, you know. It'd grown up and not a shadow. Son: Dad, you asked me about that the other day, why he ~~~~~~~~..-: was buried there. I referred to that story Secret of Harvest Home, where's buried outside the cemetery. Biblical. And I got to thinking about that and that is Do you remember the money that Judas took to the priest to give them for the betrayal? Judas, the Iscari ot \vhen he betrayed Jesus? He took the money to the church or to the priest and tried to give it to em . They took that and bought what became Potter's field and buried him there and not in the other burial ground and that ' s where that thing . . . I told you I thought the idea came from Europe somewhere, they brought it over here. But when I started thinking about it, it came from the Bible. the reason they did that . That ' s They wouldn't bury him out in the cemetery because �17 he was a murderer just like Judas was. (Laughter) Well I had wondered if you had run across anything like that where it was a custom that criminals not be buried in there. Interviewer : right. Does that . . . I haven't heard anything like that. But I'm sure that's I haven't . . . Son : Did you see Secret of Harvest Home . . . on television? Interviewer: Son: Okay. I've read that book. You know the woman was buried outside the cemetery . . . I'm internipting here, I gotta go . . . Interviewer: Son: Oh, no. That's okay. I know what you're talking about though. I thought that might give you some insight as to why Ralph Noblett was buried over on that hill and not in the cemetery, because the mountain people, the traditions that they brought with them over here, they stick to them very closely still now. If you get back in the mountains, which if you probably done, you'd find em. Wife: Son: I figured he'd tell about Efler(?) Okay, I thought that was interesting because of the circumstances of the hanging . He is the one they hung at Cross Mill and rode his coffin up . . • okay I ' ve got some business to attend to. I hope I see you before I leave, but if I don't, take care of yourself . Well I could go on and on and on but I . . . Wife: Well you have to tell about Efler? (Laughter) He was hanged in Marion. Tell about what? Wife: Efler. He's the one Frank had you tell about when you got off on that . . . �18 Yes that's right. County . Now they's only one man that was ever hanged in McDowell They've been men sent from here to Raleigh since they've had the electric chair and the gas chamber. Wife : Maybe you've had that told before. Interviewer: No mam, I haven't heard that story. I sure haven't. But he was the man that moved from Yancey County across into McDowell County and here at Buck Creek. I dont' know whether you noticed Buck Creek as you came in this away . . . right down here before you got to Pleasant Garden. back here in these mountains. Runs right And on the head waters of Buck Creek there's a man moved over there and he, for some reason, I don't know why, killed his wife. And he was hanged here in Marion, the only person that was ever put to death here in the county. He was a mountaineer, of course, and they said the whole affair was almost unbelievable. That they gave him so much whiskey that morning before they took him out there to bury him. I knew people who was, when I was a boy, were at who ./\ this hanging and they told about it. And told about how drunk he was . He was so drunk he couldn't stand and possibly didn't know when the execution took place or anything. of that rope. But there was a boy who worked with me who had a piece His grandfather was one of the ones who helped do the executing. I think he cut the rope thru the trap that took his life. I wanted to show you. . . . pictures . . . which was very co:rrrrnon in . . . I can remember . . . there's a man plowing , plowing with his ox. this fellow is riding a donkey somewhere. I don't know that one. called Uncle Tom's Cabin, surely nothing could possibly It's ~~~~~~~~~~- But these was old pictures taken back when the railroad was cut thru these mountains. shovel. And here of course, And here's some of the old homes down here that the mountain people often lived in that. that. There's something here Now those railroads, that railroad was built with a pick and They had no steam shovels in those days and they just simply had _mules and ... END OF TAPE I SIDE 2 �19 Tape 467B, Side I That's an old, old picture. Interviewer: This is a hotel in Asheville. And that's the French Broad River. Is there a train there somewhere? Interviewer: There's a track right there. There's somewhere where there's a train pulling that mountain that I was telling you about awhile ago. Wife: Is it over here somewhere? Well, maybe it's on this. Turn on the light and you can see better. Now this road was a1t through western North Carolina. thru the Swannanoa Gap at Ridgecrest. And there's the geyser. Old Fort. There'·s where it went That was all done by pick and shovel. By the way, they've restored that geyser up here above I wish you had time to go up there and look at it. Interviewer: Well that's really pretty. There's a train on there. That might have been the one that you were thinking about. There's the little train that was pulling up that mountain. grade there on those mountains. That's very steep I know you're interested in . . . Wife : You didn't get thru with Efler, honey. Don't forget him. Let me see, there's something here that I thought about. Now, uh, you 're talking about education and after the Civil War, the North never helped the South anywhere. After the war, the South suffered. They lived someway they could and it's right interesting to me to notice now that we even help Japan, �20 Gennany, and all those countries get back on their feet, but after the Civil War arolll1d we scramble~d lived somehow or another but there's nobody on relief. We were poor but everybody else was poor and we didn't know it. we didn't know it. We had horses and cows and plenty to eat. removed off of the table ever meal more than we ate. not to have an ablll1dance of food. clothes. We were poor people but We had, my mother We didn't know what it was We didn't have many clothes, had one suit of But there's nobody begging. Nobody living off food stamps. is a letter that might be of interest to you. 1bat there 1bat letter was . . . now my son who is in Texas, he is a dean of a textile school at the University of Texas. my yolll1gest son. He's younger than Frank. And he wanted this letter, the original letter, so they made me a copy of that before he took it off. And you'll notice that person there that wrote that letter could write pretty well. writing. 1bey never went to school a day in their life. after the Civil War and that was my alll1t. 1874. 1bat was 105 years ago. 1bat's It's very good 1bere's no schools And that letter was written on March 5, And if you could read it, it's quite interesting. You see, she . . . now this is one . . . she wrote on both sides of her, that . . . and see here's where it starts. And that's the second sheet over there. Read it out if you can. Interviewer: Okay. 1be state of Tennessee, Cooke County, March 5, 1874. Dear Mother and Father. I write you a few lines to let you know that I am well and hope these lines may find you and all well. it is a girl. I have another child, Her name is Tennessee . . . (maybe Ester, maybe). months old the twelvth of this month. She is seven Pap, I (Oh she's seven months old this month). No periods, no cormnas, or anything. (Laughter) Interviewer: Pap, I want to know what is the reason you and mother don't write to me. It looks like you have forgot me. all but I can't come at this time to see you. would come and see me. I would like to see you But I would be glad if you (She has a very good handwriting, she really does.) �21 I want you to write to me and tell me who is dead and who is married since I left there . I want to know what has become of Noah Southers' girl and if they are married. duce. Bacon 12~¢ Give them my respects . a pound. Flour 4¢ per pound. I will give you the price of pro- Corn 60¢ per bushel . Wheat $1 . 25 per bushel . I hear that the Bald Mountain shakes three times a day . I want to know if it's so . James is putting out a big crop on the Whitter (looks like) Luttens ' plantation two miles from Parrotsville. So I will close at this time by asking you to write to me and direct your letter to Parrotsville ML Bearhill Cooke County , East Tennessee . Now by the way, do you know who John Parrish is? Interviewer: The writer, the man who writes for the Asheville Citizen sometimes . You know who John Parrish is. Interviewer: Uhm, Uhm. Well now read this right here. Interviewer : Okay. . . there were widely published reports of volcanic disturbances about Bald and Stone Mountains in 1874. These are the highest peaks in the ridge of mountains a few miles east of the Blue Ridge between the gathering points of the head waters of the Catawba and Broad Rivers . Clingman's reports, articles, and addresses describe many phenomenon occurring in western North Carolina. Now that was not too· long ago in the Asheville paper . And this is referred to in this letter . Interviewer : That's what she's talking about, isn't it? Volcanic . . . Rather coincident, i sn't it? �22 Interviewer: I never heard of that before. anywhere in these mountains. I never heard of volcanoes What about that. Sort of like earthquakes and disturbances that way, wasn't it? Ulun, uhm. Interviewer: Well that's really interesting. It's rather interesting. Interviewer: It certainly is. She has a fine handwriting. I can't read aloud as well as I should be. But she couldn't spell anything, you know. She really does. (Laughter) She couldn't spell anything. But the poor thing did well to be able to write and in those days they just didn't have any books or anything else. Interviewer: Well at least she had it spelled where you could figure out what she was talking about. That's right. And that's what the English language is for.· out what's going on. Wife: (Laughter) To find Well, I don't know of anything else . . Are you not going to finish about Efler? Efler, wasn't that his name? Well, they, that's all they was to that, that I remember. Wife: He rode on his coffin to the gallows. Oh, let me see . . . that's something . . . the reason I have kept that, that was the uh, called Custard's Last Rally. You know what that was, when Custard and his forces were completely destroyed in South Dakota, I reckon it was. Dakotas. And I knew him personally. he was not a fake either. . .one of the The only man that survived that fight and Because he had papers to show from Washington that he �23 belonged to Custard's a11JlY at this time. And he had been dispatched with an Indian guide to go back to General Reno's office. back to Reno's forces and ask for help. slaughter. Not his office, but And he was away at this And I knew Mr. Knight, Dan Knight, and I worked with his som. I knew two of his sons well. One of them was a graduate of Duke University or Trinity College at that time, and his other son worked with me and I knew Mr. Knight well. And that's the reason I kept that, is because of the fact that, it's just because I did know the man that wis in that. you've seen that possibly. Interviewer: The only surviving .man ... (Shuffling papers) No, I don't believe I have. Now you know who Frankie Silvers was. Interviewer: Uhm, yeah I've heard of her. Well, have you ever seen that poem? Interviewer: I don't believe I've seen the poem, no. Well, you want to read it too. Both of them copies are the same. That's what she's supposed to have composed before she was hanged. Interviewer: Oli, I see. And she's the only woman to ever be hanged in North Carolina? Yeah, Uhm, that's right. Interviewer: It was pretty gruesome business wasn't it? It really was. Wife: Would you like a cup of coffee and a piece of pumpkin pie? Interviewer: Water'll be fine. Thank-you mam. �24 I don't know, goodness knows, that I was possibly the poorest prepared person that ever tried to teach in the world. demands than I could possibly fill. They had no vacation. But for some unknown reason I had more They was one year that I taught a solid year. When they found that I was not busy they asked me to come to that school and take up in the st.mlJller time when they's supposed to be farming if Now I don't say this boastingly because it's just as much a mystery to me as it is to you, why that was. But it's so. And so I went on and I was asked to be principal of the school here at Pleasant Garden. Now that was only when they had three teachers down there then and then they had a school that was considered better at a town called ville. I don't suppose you ever heard of it, it was a little place back in the Southern part of the county here. It was a gold mining region and they had some stores there, two or three stores. Two or three places that sold whiskey and so on. And so I was asked to come there and I stayed there three years and finished up my, what I had tried to do as a teacher there. And I folllld that some of the brightest students that I'd ever run into were right there in that school. That the truth of the matter is that they knew as much as I did and I had to study ever night to keep them fooled. (Laughter) I stayed up to midnight studying my lessons. And I kept them fooled til the last day I was there. had me cornered time after time. (Laughter) And you have no But I made it thru. ~ <lea how they (Laughter) I fooled them to the very end. Now I was talking to a young man, and I've had people visiting me here of all kinds of people, the poorest needy, like myself, and some of the richest, some of the high salary people, some rich people. I had a man to visit me from New Jersey not long ago who is a multimillionaire and he came to see me. still alive and he came up here to see me and talk to me. He heard that I was And I have talked to all groups of people of every strata of education of people down here, and I have always got something out of talking to those people just as well as to the person up here that was well educated. I had a young man who is the yollllgest official �25 that the Carolina Power and Light Company has ever employed to visit with me here not long ago and he and I were talking about what education means. where do we go to from here. Where have we come to, And I have made up my mind it's something like this. That you find very few high school students, now I don't know, I went to college just a little bit but not enough for it to do me much good, and I don't know how it is now. been 65, 70 years since I was in college. That's And that was Old Trinity College which is now Duke Univer· sity. In talking to this young man who is an official of the Carolina Power and light Co. he told me some things that he had observed and the very things that I am conscious of it. That education today is made up of so many graduates out of colleges and universities who know something about everything. You can't start to touch one of them but what they know something about it and talk to you intelligently about it. But when you pin down on some of them, "just what do you know about this particular thing," you soon have them cornered and they know a little about everything and not a great deal about anything. (Laughter) A young lawyer here was talking to me not long ago and he said his mother, now he was a graduate, he'd taken his degree at the University of North Carolina before he entered the law school, and he had, I don't know, 2 years or 3 years , whatever it is, you know, I don't know. I believe it's two years. after they finish their 'regular education. I believe they finished in two years .. And he said his mother was talking to him one day and she says, "Bob" says, "you amuse me". Says,"You know a littlebit about everything and you don' t know much about anything.'.' ''Y6u can't read, you can't write, and your spelling's awful." (Laughter) And he said he got to studying about it and looking at his writing and he said, "I couldn't read it, part of it. says, "I'd write it and forget what I wrote and couldn''.t read it." And like an old man back over here in the mountains, \ he's looking after a mans pasture over there, taking care of his cows. in town. He's a doctor. The man lived here Bought him a farm back there and had cattle on that farm over there and he wrote, ·this doctor wrote him a letter and told him what he wanted him to do with the cattle over there. And the man got it, the old farmer over there, got �26 the letter and he couldn't make out anything. to him. So he didn't know what to do. (Laughter) It was a lot of cooking bark Said he decided to come to Marion and take it to the doctor and say to the doctor, "Doctor, I just got your letter, I appreciate it, but I couldn't read it," and said after he carried on the conversation a little bit, after the doctor had quit thinking about him a telling him, he got the letter and so on, says, "Here's a letter I want you to read to me." Said he pulled the same letter out of his pocket and handed it and said the doctor looked at it a little bit and turned it up this way and he said, "What son of a bitch wrote this?" read his own writing. (Laughter) (Laughter) So that's the way Bob was. He couldn't So I was talking to this, going back to my story again, I was talking to this young official of Carolina Power and Light Company. He's a high paid man. I think his salary is about $45,000 and he has taken his degree out of college and his postgraduate. And I don't know how much maybe his father met. And he was talking to me about the same thing that we are about education today. And he said, "I'd like to see some of your books. Do you happen to have some of your old books there that you are talking about so much?" And I says, "Yes, I've got some. They're almost torn up." see em." Says, "How old are they?" Says, "I'd like to I says, "75 or 80 years old." He says, "Hunt em up, I'ct like to see em." Now I'm going in here and get some of those old books just to show you what we was talking about. Now I declare I got completely off this mountain story. Interviewer: Wife: That's perfectly alright. Maybe I didn't get enough ginger ale in that, did I? Interviewer: Wife: Oh that's okay. Oh it's good, it's fine. I picked up the bottle and poured some in it and didn't taste it. I don't know what you believe in religion churches. a Catholic (Laughter), you may be a Protestant. You may be a Jew, you may be And the same thing with you Judy. �27 Let me call you Judy will you? Interviewer: Oh certainly, certainly. And you just call me Jeff. Uh, but there's one thing about the churches that have been the most change taken place of anything in my life and I can't yet understand what is taking place. Interviewer: Now do you attend church? The Presbyterian Church, yes sir. Do you attend church? Interviewer #2: Episcopal. Well now I don't know about the Episcopals so much, but I'll take the churches that I do know about. Now you're the Presbyterian? Okay. where I was reared they had a Presbyterian church. Now in my coTTUTlunity Not right close to where I lived but they had what's called a United Methodist Church now and a Baptist Church in that corrnnunity. Well the services in those days and the doctrine in those days, it was preached to the people by, we assumed, a qualified and dedicated preacher, was so different from what they preach today that there's just as much difference as they is, I think, to believing Mohammedan and Jesus Christ, almost that same difference. Now in the church where I was reared they had, if you, before you joined the church you was supposed to show to that church that you had a change of life. That you were what they called a conversion, i:::' which means turning up and going the wrong(??)way, that everybody was born in sin and they had a certain amount of responsibility to God to change this way before you were accepted as a qualified member to join the church. Alright, now in my church the way they did, they formed what they thought was a conversion and I've heard people good and bad claim that they really had a change in life at a particular moment. That you were one way one way and suddenly that you became a Christian and felt in your life that that was so. Well they had what was �28 called a alter and as the preacher preached and gave the invitation to those who'd accept Christ to come forth and bow for prayer and kneel for prayer. Well, that's the kind of a church that it was and I didn't know, I thought, now I don't think your church ever practiced that. I don't really know the doctrine of your church. But I have friends who belong to the Episcopal Church and I know that we don't talk what and I find out anything about that. And after they were converted, they call a conversion, a change in their life. what they called a heart- felt religion, that you felt the change in your life, that you were a changed man. 'Then you were eligible to be admitted to the church but not before. would get up and preach about hell. He'd preach about heaven. really there was a hell, and I thought there was really a devil. was a heaven, I thought it was a good place to go. 'The preacher And I thought I thought there So I remember one night I went to one of these big, what they call a revival, and the preacher got up and preached the sermon and the sermon was like this. he didn't. He knew all about it. He made hell hot, don't you think And it was a tent meeting out in the country with such a great big tent out there. All the different denominations came in and took part in this and he made that thing real hot. a lot that night. here. And I studied about that And here's a little story . . . now please, let me make a request If you get enough-· of my talk, I want you to say this is it, that'll do for this time. END OF TAPE 467B, SIDE I Tape 467B, Side 2: and they thought he was going to die. and looked after them. didn't have hospitals. . . the In t hose days peop 1e went into community "" 'They didn't have nurses, didn't have doctors to come in, care of And they went in there to take I\ a sick man and said his friend was over there that night and they said that uh. . . the man, the sick man �29 got quiet, quleted down, and that man that was sitting there by his bed went to sleep! And said he had a dream and said this man, this was his dream ... he dreamed that his ... while he was there that his friend died. And when he died that he'd been a very sinful man and said when the man died said there's a devil come into the door. But he said before this devil came in the door, says a little creature about that high with horns and a tail and all that you know. And he ~aid that before this devil came in the room, the man died and said he saw the spirit of this man come out of the body and said the spirit begin to look all around, here and there, and everywhere, as looking for a place to hide. And said finally it ran out, the spirit ran out the door and they watched it, went across the road and off down like that, in the woods somewhere. And said all at once the devil came in and said the devil came in, told what the devil looked like, said he came up to his bed, looked at the man, the man was dead. Said the devil began to look for the spirit of this man, said he went and looked under the bed, and went and looked behind the door, and he went- - - - - - - And so after a while, the devil went out the door like a hound ... a bloodhound. He seemed to have a instinct or smelling to know where that spirit went. Said he followed him off over that hill there, and he said you know when that devil got down there, siad I had gone to the door and looked out and watching that and he said the spitit of that man screamed. everywhere. He says that you could hear him all over And he says, "All at once I woke up." Says "I got so excited in my dream',' says, " "I woke " and said "when I woke", said "the man was dead." Now he said that creature says, now if that part of the story did, if he actually died, the rest of this story's true. And he had me scared to death. (laughter) go to the mou01er's bed in a hurry. (Laughter) night, I went over to Oh! I thought better He had me scared. So that and I lived about half a mile beyond where my friends lived and I went with them along, and I kept riding because they were older men and hadn't paid no attention to it, of course. didn't want them But I was taking it very seriously, and I �30 to lmow I was scared. But I haa made up my mind along ago that the distance from this house to our house has never made as quick- by a hoyse or anything else. (Laughter) I lost no time (Laughter) because I didn't lmow where he might jl.nTip out you lmow, on me, yes sir. (Laughter) Now they said preaching is that, you lmow in those days, and they had what you called people 1vould shout They get up and say, "Glory to God!" Thank the Lord that the sometimes. blessings that you see If that thing like I have seen in that old ----- church back then should take place now in the First church in Boone, they'd call out the riot squad, every officer in town, the sheriff, and everybody else. Say there's a riot taking place. What is the truth? Interviewer: It's hard to say. Interviewer: I said that's hard to say. Hm? Some of the churches up in the motmtains way up in the mountains, way back, are still, still like that. They are? Do you have any snake handlers? Interviewer: There aren't any snake handlers right there around in Boone, I don't think. But there's some over in, towards Johnson City. some over that way. There's But I don't believe there are any, I haven't heard of any right there around in Watauga Cotmty .anywhere. There may be some but if they handle them, they don't, it's not real widely known I don't think. Well I have gone to churches when you leave a church you felt like it was good for you to be there. It's just,you had a betterfeeling,y0 u•·s just glad to be there and have a part in it. and dead. (Laughter) worse shape. And I've gone other times and it was so formal and dry You was sorry that you went. (Laughter) Interviewer: Uh, uh. You felt like you was in Now, you've been down to Beaufort. �32 Well, here's a direct example. You can size it up, put an interpretation on anything I say about this, but I know this will be so . The people in those days in the country church where I was, they believed in helping the needy. If you had sickness in your home, they'd go there and help in .case of sickness . If you had a death, they'd help you bury the dead . you planted your crops and yo~ If you were a farmer and couldn't cultivate it because of sickness in your family, they went in and cultivated that land for you . Set a day, the church would say "a certain day we're going to go over here to John's house and we're going to work out his crops." Now said, "every one of you come and bring your mules and your plows and get over there and you people with a hoe" . .. I don't know whether you've seen much of that hoeing going on now. But in those days, the hoeing, taking all the weeds out of the corn and so on, was just as important as the plowing or the cultivating part . They don't even plow now, they do it with spraying to kill the weeds out, you know . But then they did. Now here's an example of how seriously they took that. Now that was part of their religion. They not only claimed ,., , ..., to be what the Bible teaches them to do, but they put it into practice. When the Union Tanning Company came to Old Fort, they came there to Old Fort because of the fact that they'd get tan bark, what's called tan bark out of these mountains. It's an extract. (wood ground up and make an ooze for tanning leather hides. And a lot of those farmers quit the farm and went to Old Fort and got a job in that. Well they'd worked not five days a wecl) they worked six days a week from ten o'clock in the morning to six in the afternoon. Saturday and all. But they were off on Sunday . Well now here's an example where this church put their religion to practice. One Sunday morning they were in church and they said, "Well, how's John over here getting." "Oh, he stays in bad shape, been sick now for two or three weeks, and his crops going to grow up in weeds and nobody's done anything about it." And says, what do you know about it? And they said, "Well, I tell you what we'll do. Next week certain times we'll go over there and work out that man's corn crop for him." And on that day, they went over there and cultivated that soil. Maybe twenty �33 five men and plows and so on go in there, and one day they cleaned that whole man's crop out. And then on Sunday, the next Sunday, there's this crowd of men there at church and said, ''Well," said, " we were not able to get off our work to help," says, "what should we do, do about it?" One man said, "I'll tell you what we're going to do." Says, "We're going home, we fellows that didn't get to help last week, get a quick dinner, put on your overalls, Sunday afternoon, we go down there and finish that crop." Not only did they work 5, 6 days a week . . . now I don't know whether you call that breaking the saddle or not (Laughter). Does that answer your question? Interviewer: Oh, yeah. There was a man by the name George Truitt. heard of him. th e days. George W. Truitt. You know, orators. knew how to talk. I don't suppose either one of you He was an orator. There's just a few orators I'll tell you Appalachia used to have one that But that's before your day and your day. Did you ever hear of I.G. Greer? Interviewer: Uh, huh, yeah. You know who I'm talking about? Interviewer: Yeah. He knew how to talk. everyone else. He could quote you as such, he could quote better than And you'd listen to him ; he's boy, wasn't he? Interviewer: smart. And he was a mountain Over there right around Boone. Yeah, yeah, he was over there from somewhere. So I heard Dr. George Truitt preaching one night and he told this. Now he believed in what you called a heartfelt religion, not a dry formal religion that is more or less made~£ education and culture, and no emotion. There's a lot of people that �34 don't want to go to any church where there's any emotion at all. They want it to be just as same as if you go to a lecture, and anything else. A dry, fonnal affair There's other people that does not appeal to them, that they feel like when you go there, that I don't know, it's just sort of good music, and so on, and it's just awesome, just does something for you. ---------. And we call that sometimes, we call it emotion. So Dr. George Truitt who · served at one church in Dallas, Texas for 40 years, he went there as a young man, and he'd never held the pastorage of any church but hhis one church. He was there at the First church in Dallas, Texas and I heard him tell this. Wife: He came to Ridgecrest. He came to Ridgecrest , yes. Wife: He'd come up every stumner for a week. And he said that he was at a church and preached. \ ... ··, • And he said that some •I woman got up in the audience and said, "Glory to God!" (Claps hands) And begin to what they say shout. "Cause I was telling you about awhile ago when you were here, now if anything like that happened, they'd call out the riot squad. (Laughter) And he had, Dr. Truitt had a brother-in-law who was a medical doctor. And when this medical doctor who was at service saw this woman there, he felt like that woman was physically upset over something that she needed attention. got up and went back to where she was at. and said, "John, leave .her alone'.' And so he And said Dr. Truitt, said he called him So people changed. I heard a woman, heard of a woman, she didn't tell me this, belonged to the church where I belonged to. She said absolutely, "!don't want any of that emotion when I go to church." Says, "they can get up and preach a straight sermon or something or other." Says, "Appeals to my eye. Me, intellectually," religion stuff about me." says, "I don't want any of that heartfelt So there's a feeling in the world today between the two peoplP., the two classes of neonle yon take your choice. Pay your money. �35 take what you want. we The church that I belong to received about (Chuckles) three letters a year, four letters a year, reminding us to be sure to give the tenth. That was the Lord's. But I have never heard of anything that they did in return for the people who was giVing this money. But they always have somebody way over yonder in Africa, or Europe, or Asia, somewhere else, needs help. And they're trying to help those poor souls over there. say this recently. But I heard a man certain He said 11 if I were in trouble today ,11 says ' r belong to ~church, but if I were in trouble today," he says, " to whom do you think I would go? " 11 I says, well, I know who I 'd go to .' ' And he said ," I ' ll tell you who I 'd go to , I'd go to my banker first. ' (Laughter) And he said," I think I'd get some help there / he says, 11 if I didn't I'd go to my doctor ,'' says, ''he's a good friend of mine," says, he'll help me . 11 And he says, if I didn't get all I needed there, he says, then I 'd go to, my;' sanebody else. where does your church come in? 11 I says, " I thought they were to help the poor I and the sick, and the needy. ' He says, "Oh . (Laughter) Now that's the feeling. 'i) Says mark it off, says they don't. How much better are you off if you belong to a church, than if you were not a church member? mind? And I said, 11 well Is there anything in your If there's no reason for it, only to support somebody that you don't know where the money ever gets to them or not. There's a big question mark in my mind. And I began to think differently. What do you think about it? Interviewer: Well, I feel like there's a lot of churches where there's not very much spirit left in them. these days. And I don't know what to do. Well, I am glad that you're a young man and all and I think it's nice that you have that feeling. Wife: I think it's corrnnendable. One of our church members said that our preacher didn't know the scripture enough to preach from it and the people in the .audience didn't know enough to know whether he was preaching from it or not. (Laughter) Didn't know the scri~ture either. �36 Now there's a lot of people that believe the Bible so thoroughly that they can't figure out whether it can possibly be one pronoun or one adjective used for what's absolutely true, it's directly from God. Well I was talking to one of those, now I believe the Bible reasonably well, but the Bible has been taken from scrolls through the hands of people who have translated from those scrolls into what we call the Bible. Now I don't know any Greek. Do you either one of you study Greek? Did you ever study Greek? Well I am told that the word that was placed in the scripture there, that said that when the thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom," if you've read the scripture, you've read that possibly. paradise today." And he says to him, "Behold thou shalt be with me in Now I'm told by a Greek scholar that that word where it was translated there, into paradise, the very identical same Greek word as translated in other places in the Bible was the word death. So here you are. 1bat's what people think, paradise is a certain place that Jesus is talking about, special place that you, we will be there together in paradise. 1be other thing said that it didn't mean a thing more than what Jesus said back to him. going to die. (Laughter) Same Greek word. that, one in particular, I pin down on him. Today we're both And I've asked Greek students about I said I want you to look word up for me and tell me for sure what it means. that And he went off and says well I have to look up my, and I never could get anything more out of him, I don't know where · he got stalled, didn't know what he was talking about, just didn't want to talk. Now I'll tell you another instance if you're a Bible student and read the Bible, where there's a difference that's questionable. In Matthew, in the gospel of Matthew, it said when Peter denied Christ, that there's a girl come to Peter, says, "You're one of His followers." And he said, "No, no I'm not." And then Matthew goes on to say that later on another woman said to him "Surely thou art one of His followers because you speak of as Galileans speak," had kind of a different accent on the way, and he denied it again. And then a third time a man �37 said to him, "I know you are one of . . . " and he denied him a third time. Well, now what does, what does ~ays Luke, Gospel of Luke say about it? The Luke this, Luke says, "And a girl," a damsel I believe it says, said to Peter that "you are a follower of Jesus Christ." And he said, "I'm not, I'm not a follower of His." And then Luke says, a man said to him, "You are." He denied it again. Then another man said to him, "Thou art," Now there's two, there's two just point out little things like that that you have to allow things like that. One gospel said that there's two women and a man. two men and a wol'Tlan. The other one says there's Now when you say that the whole Bible is ever word true, that I don't say that the trouble is with the Bible originally, but it's gone through so many hands and the translations, been translated and translated. The fact of the matter is when the King James, now if I'm wrong about this, you correct me, you've possibl s t udied this, when King James had the Bible translated <yes the from the Greek from th); New Testament is in Greek I believe and Old Bible's in Hebrew. When they had that . . . when they's appointed some monks, King James appointed some monks and there's one he~ kinda head monk who was seemed to be the thing that ran things and they picked up all these different scrolls and decided then and there which were the scrolls that should go in the Bible, and they classified them and ever since then everybody says this is the Bible, it's all true. I don't believe, just be honest about it, I don't believe the book of Job and the book of Jonah, swallowing the whale. Wife: You know that story. Jonah didn't swallow the whale, the whale swallowed Jonah. (Laughter). I don't think that was ever intended to be put in the Bible. exactly like the book Pilgrim's Progress. Don't know whether you ever heard of the Pilgrim's Progress? The Pilgrim's ..ProgTess is the story as simply fiction. I think that It was never intended being there. I think it was of~ Christian's life the book of Job, was a work of fiction. It's a good book, it teaches us a lot of good things to live by, and all like that, but to say it was a direct work from God �38 be nrinted like that. Now for instance in that book of Job, now please stop me if you get tired of this stuff. Interviewers: No. Wife: You've talked enough for all day. Interviewer: Go ahead. (Lau12:hter) In the book of Job, it said . I think it's in the chapter, second chapter of Job, it said that t.he nevil accompanied by somebody came before God in passing and it said, the devil said to God. he said, the devil said, "if vou turn your back on people and are not a friend to them," says, "none of em will serve you. What people serve God for is the good they get out of it, financially and things like that." And God said to the devil, "Have you considered my servant Job?" And the devil said. "If you turn your back on Job or turn him over to me and let me deal with him, you' 11 find he' 11 turn his back on you too." And said the Lord permitted him to be turned over to the devil. Now can you imagine, can you imagine that God/ the Creator of the heavens and the Earth and everything to the stars would have a little enough care for a creature to turn him over to the devil? Just to prove to the man, you can't prove anvthing to the devil, turn him over to him and let him ... vou know the boils he went through, sores, how his property was taken from him1 sons killed and all that. Can you imagine our creator and a man who has created the heavens and the Earth, things like eternal that is just so unreasonable that I just simply can't accept it. God he is, we're in bad shape. (Laughter) END OF TAPE If that's the kind of � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Parker, J. F. Location The location of the interview. McDowell County, NC Number of pages 38 pages Date digitized 9/23/2014 File size 25.8MB Checksum alphanumeric code 7f2651391849c681b3916ffa79f9c215 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape467_JFParker_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with J.F. Parker Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Parker, J.F. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Marion County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--McDowell County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Rowan County Marion County (N.C.)--Social life and customs McDowell County (N.C.)--Social life and customs Rowan County (N.C.)--Social life and customs Parker, J. F. Description An account of the resource J.F. Parker talks about his experience as a teacher with the mountain people living in Old Fort. Although he had never finished high school, he got a job as a teacher. He said: "He was going to send me on to teach school whether I knew anything or not." He talks about the hardships living up there, how school attendance was often very low and the kids brought snakes to the schoolhouse. He says the mountain people were a different breed of folk and they understood that "it takes a certain amount of failure in life to make a person what they should be." They were hardened, but strong and firm. Civil War Custard's Last Rally Custard's Last Stand Episcopal Church flu epidemic Frankie Silvers hangings J.F. Parker Marion County N.C. Marion Manufacturing Company McDowell County N.C. Morganton mountain people Old Fort Presbyterian Church railroad Ralph Noblett Rowan County schoolhouse Sunday School teaching https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/6954a572792bd70c120b2f894413f90f.pdf 810d79cc1c7d367165cbc84c6725ac45 PDF Text Text Interview with Mrs. Ethel Burns by Pat Morgan I. Childhood A. B. C. II. C. D. E. F. V. VIII. (L) Made small profits on large sales Sold from catalogues Not so money conscious Did not take advantage of the rich (S) Older people with no children Not many young people her age Years being discussed A. B. (L) Community club Carnival in the Park 1. jobs for local people 2. money for library Feeling of inferiority of local people Holthozers were accepted in their homes Tourists as church workers Local people's living depended on tourists Types of tourists A. B. VII. Born in Rowan Co. Moved to Blowing Rock Father's business A. B. C. D. VI. (S) Relationships to tourists A. B. (S) 1915 - '20; age 10 or 12 Born in 1908 Change to need for money (S) A. (S) Independent man Story about Mrs. Cone His love for mountains His desire to build an inn Father's background A. B. IV. Family Involvement with tourists Feelings about tourists 1. "summer people" 2. tourists in the home Father's attitudes toward the tourists A. B. C. D. III. (S) Father not money minded ) �B. C. D. IX. Sunshine Inn and Mrs. Burns A. B. X. XII. XVI. (S) No interference from government Health department standards (L) Paid as a team--$25/week Increase in pay over the years--$100/wk each Loyal and hard workers Discipline A. B. (S) Not cut out to be a boss Did not scold individually Work done by the Burns A. B. C. (L) Year-round job Waitresses went to school Cooks went home 1. John and Maggie Jones 2. Room behind kitchen for summer The Jones A. B. C. XV. (S) Nothing in town Playing of games in dining room Inn grew A. B. XIV. Description Everyone was part of the family Did all their own work Waitress work Guests stayed sometimes two months $15.00 per week to stay Meals at the inn Closing at Labor Day A. B. C. XIII. (L) Entertainment A. B. (S) Father built in 1929 The Depression: the move to Blowing Rock The inn A. B. C. D. E. F. G. XI. Others started seasonal rates Yen for money grew Father was a fair businessman 1. Taught children not to use credit 2. Most important lesson (S) Husband was dishwasher She was maid Work got easier �XVII. Guests' attitudes A. B. C. XVIII. XIX. E. C. D. (L) Jones felt too inferior to associate Very humble Jones boy could not play with Burns boy Maggie couldn't understand any kind of segregation John was afraid 1. Experience when Holthozer's store was built 2. Negroes were stoned (L) No bookkeeping Not much attention to profit or loss Experience taught her to estimate Salesmen started to sell by portions 1. Bigger profit for inn 2. She didn't like that method Wanted only enough money to get through winter 1. No money in bank 2. Watauga Savings and Loan Change in tourist business A. B. XXIII. Couple had too much breakfast Complained and unsatisfied Left without paying Business attitudes A. B. C. D. XXII. (S) Jones' relationship to the guests and the Burns A. B. C. D. E. XXI. (S) Jewish family unfriendly Another family criticized service Funny things A. B. C. XX. Stayed long time Mr. Dillon 1. disappointed at first 2. began to like it 3. came back year after year Most of the guests were satisfied Unpleasant things A. B. (L) (L) 1969--retirement after 40 years work Transits people 1. Biggest change 2. Always on the go 3. More incontentment Trade has more than doubled 1. Land of Oz 2. Tweetsie Still room for improvement Advertising (S) �A. B. C. .XX:IV . Difference in family- owned and non- family-owned business (L) A. B. C. D. E. XXV . B. D. Senator ' s son was coming Mrs . Burns agrees to impress him He came early 1 . tables wer e shoved together for lunch 2 . very informal He didn ' t seem to mind (S) Didn ' t have any Mr . Burns fixed up intercom Bad response--idea dropped Auctions Movies Other Interference from government A. B. C. D. E. X.XX: . (S) Guests found other entertainment A. B. C. .XX:IX . Different games 1 . "Pig" 2 . Post Offi ce Disturbed a guest one night 1 . he complained 2. soon forgot about it Music A. B. C. XXVIII . ( S) Informality of the Inn A. B. C. .XX:VII . Different attitudes in money making Local people sold out because of a good offer Real estate out- of- sight Nothing like that in earlier days Martin House and Green Inn Games A. XXVI . Chamber of Commerce 1 . posters in other states 2 . tourists came and were let down New sign--" Sunshine Inn" Use the money more wisely 1 . happy cust omers spr ead the word 2 . best way to advertise (L) Privilege license Sales tax Social Security Withholding tax Told how to run the inn Getting out of the business (S) (S) �A. B. XXXI. Glad because of the things involved Sad because customers were let down One family in particular--the Butlers A. B. C. (S) Came there for honeymoon Came every summer after that until closing By that time they had a daughter �With Ethel Burns on January the fifth, 1975 at her home in Blowing Rock with Pat Morgan with the Appalachian Oral History Project at Appalachian State University. PM: Could you give me your mother and father's names and your brothers' and sisters' names? EB: Yes, you mean their full names? PM: Their full names, as much as you can. EB: My father was William (inaudible middle name) Holtho zer, and my mother, Laura Ellen Holtho· zer. ~•• t My brothers and sisters suppose I just give you their first names? PM: Fine, that'll be fine. EB: June, Katie, the one you know Peg, Howard, Mary, Eugene, and William Luther. PM: Very good, that's a nice, a nice sized family. Mrs. Burns, we have been talking abo'ut tourism and what it meant to this section of the country, can you tell me when did you go into the tourist business as such? Just tell me as much as you can about what you've done. EB: Well, personally, my time dates from 1929 when I ac- tually got into the tourist business, but, of course, we were affected by the tourist business all of our lives. My father being in store business--merchandise--of course, came in constant contact with the tourists then. We spoke of tourists then as "summer residents",. and "the summer people". That's the way we referred to them, we didn't call them tourists, we just says they're "summer residents" or "summer people". And while there was a difference, we realized that these were �2 people who stood a little above us socially, and financially, and at the same time they accepted us and we accepted them as, really, people of Blowing Rock. There was that feeling of really high opinion of them because they did take an interest in our .•• oh, little everyday things that happened to us here, the local people here in Blowing Rock. that dates way back to my childhood. So, of course, Then there were so few places around that people would take the tourists into their homes. They didn't have a business, but just their private homes, and this brought us in, of course, closer contact and association with the tourist people. But I Slept on the floor many a time in order to give my room to some tourist. At the time I may not have liked it, but it was just a thing that we accepted and did. Then when we went into business-- really what we would say "the tourist business"-- it was no great change, it just seemed like we just opened our home to you the public, and we wasn't thinking of it in terms of making alot of money, but really just of taking care of the people who came to us. time. I think this was a change made in the Then the season, really we opened in May, but we didn't expect a rush business--and when I say "rush", it was rush then, but certainly not like a rush would be today--really didn't start until about the first of July. ~.c.k Then we closed everything--everything in BlowingAclosed--definitely at Labor Day. After that time if you would see a stranger on the street everybody would run out to see this new person on the street, you know, and what he was doing because it was a curiosity to see anybody on the streets after Labor Day. So, �3 that's changed tremendously, you know, from the past. PM: Well, tell me, in your childhood did your father ever talk to you about tourists per se, or "those summer people"? EB: Oh yes! Dad had a mind of his own really, and he was very independent. While he knew, as everyone else knew, that we were dependent on as I said we called them "the summer people" at that time, still Dad was a person that wouldn't let them walk over him at all. I know you've heard of the Cone (spelling?) Estate, and the Cones. Of course, Mister and Missus Cone were living here at the time. My father's store had a basement and many, many times he would go to the basement to maybe measure out potatoes or do work down there and leave the store doors wide open, you kn ow, with noone up there. One time Miz Cone came in and she was a little irritated because there was noone there to wait on her. So, Dad eventually came up from the basement and Mrs. Cone says, "Mr . Holthozer, don't you know somebody could walk off with everything you've got?" He just sort of grinned a little bit and says, "Well Miz Cone, I didn't know you were in town, or I wouldn't have been down there." Of course, there is a lot of humor with it, too, but Dad never let any of them, even though he was a very humble person, and very kind person he still felt his ••• his authority and his own individuality in his relationship to the summer people. I think this love for Blowing Rock and this life in the mountains really, probably we inherited that from Dad because he really loved the mountains~ And I told you that his ambition was to build a place where people of moderate �4 means can come and enjoy the climate and the scenery. PM: He was from where? EB: Rowan County. And he came, I think , because of malaria; bad health conditions, there was alot of mosquitoes at that time so his father moved his family here to avoid that situation. PM: Can you think of any other examples as a child in Blowing Rock of your relationship to the summer people? Perhaps another story like the Cone story? EB: There are so many really pleasant associations with the summer people. They organized then a community club, which consisted of some of the local people and the summer residents, too. And they really did a great, a great work for Blowing Rock. And they had every summer there a carnival in the park. In order to, I think, really to have have better relationships between the local people and the summer people, they drew the local people into jobs in this project that they called the Carnival in the Park. head of it: But they were really the they put it on, and all the money was donated to the community for the library. The reason for us having the x good library that we have now •.• so, I'm not thinking of humourous things now, but really things that were so helpful to the community. PM: You said they probably had the summer festival in order to have better relationships with the peoplecithe area, did you ever sense that people from the area, not necessarily in general, but different ones, resented these people coming here and spending their time during the summer, while they went �5 about their own labors? EB: I don't think there was a resentment, but I do feel like the local people had a tendency to feel a little inferior to the summer residents, because if they were invited into their home socially, we thought we were up in the world. We felt like that was a great honor. So, I'm sure there was a certain amount of class distinction there; that we did think they were a little above us socially, and, of course, we knew they were financially, there was no doubt about that. PM: Did anyone ever tell you that, that gave you that im- pression? Say, when you were in school did any teacher talk to you about this difference? EB: No, no, and I think probably I felt it less--and please don't think I'm saying this egotistically at all--but my family, the Holthozers, were a prominent family then. So, probably we were accepted into ' the homes of the summer residents more than others. But I remember my friends say, "Hmmm, think you're somethin', don't ya?" being invited to any of their social functions. And we really felt like we were getting up in the world when we were invited into their homes. But I don't think this was the feeling among the summer residents, because we had such a high, really high class people as summer residents that you certainly wouldn't associate any class distinctions within their minds, you know, because they were anxious, really for us to come in their homes and be a part of them. You said you were so familiar with Flora McDonald, we had the Bardells, who for years and years were residents of Blowing Rock, summer resi- �6 dents. And then the Cones and the Cannons. These names are familiar to you I'm sure, aren't they? PM: Yes, ma'am. EB: So we had such a .•• and they were church workers, they worked in the church. Dr. Bardell supplied in our church during the summer for years, and years and years. So, to them this was home, and they were really citizens of Blowing Rock from their standpoint, and of course, from our standpoint, too, we accepted them. PM: Were there any feelings at all about the fact that these people were coming to your Blowing Rock to stay for se~eral months? Did you have any real feelings either negatively or positively about that? EB: Not then, not as a child, because we thought it was great when they would start coming back. We looked forward to the time when they were coming back and we'd say, "oh, the lardells are here" , or "the Cannons are here", and it was really something that we'd looked forward to. Now, whether or not we unconsciously were conscious of that fact that our living depended upon them, that everything we had ~e was dependent on this business, that mayAhad something to do with it, though at the time certainly I didn't think about that. And I don't think my father did either, because my brother-in-law was working in the store, my father's store, Missus Cannon came in to buy a rug which was then a fantastic price for a rug, I think around ten thousand dollars. Well, to me that's a big price even yet. of business through catalogues. But Dad did a lot He would keep the catalogues �7 and order for the people from the catalogues. come in to select a rug. So she had I think on a ten thousand dollar rug maybe he would make a profit of maybe ten dollars. By that time people beginning to get more and more financially conscious, you know: make money, make money. But I remember Dad saying why should he take advantage of Miz Cannon just because she had money? It, really, didn't cost him anything but a three-cent sta•p, and he was perfectly happy with his profit of ten dollars. So, the local people then didn't try to take advantage of the people just b ecause they had money. PM: Do you recall ever having any friends, children of the summer people, who you looked forward to seeing come back every year? Any type of relationship like that? EB: That's something I expect would really give you an insight into the tourists, the' type of tourists that Blowing Rock had during that period, early period, because it seemed to be older people who had no children, or people with grown children who maybe wasn't too enticed to be in Blowing Rock, that came, and so really I don't remember people of my own age, like playing with them, or those things. I just don't remember it at all, because it seems that it has been really a place where elderly people came, and retired people, the and notAyounger generation. Even that early there was definitely that because there was really not much for young people to do, and I think they preferred the beaches, you know, and so we just didn't have many young people. And while I haven't thought of it, I really don't remember �having playmates among the summer residents. PM: Approximately what were the years that we've been talking about? EB: Was it 1919? '20? '30? Yes, I expect from 19 and 15, '20, because these were the things that I remember when I was ten maybe twelve years old. PM: Could you tell me when were you born? EB: 19 and 8. PM: 1908. Okay, you gave the example of your father or- dering the ten thousand dollar rug and you mentioned that at that a~ ~s~~ time people weren't that interested in making all that much money, they hadn't quite reached that point, do you have any feeling as to when they began to feel like they needed to make more money on that ten thousand? Using ten thousand just as an example, as a figure, when did people's attitudes begin to change, and maybe you have a feeling as to why it changed? EB: I don't think I could see the change, I can see it maybe not in myself because I don't think my family was ever money-minded too much. a lot of money. Really our aim wasn't money, But I could see the change in maybe public places changing their rates from ••• like they would have seasonal rates, you know, then they certainly had an idea they'd make more money at one time .•• They were money-conscious. I think the fact that they did change their rates during certain periods. Now, of course, the horse show has always been one of the busiest periods during the summer and many of the places would up their rates due to the fact they �9 knew they were going to have a lot of people , there was no doubt about it, and they would get as much money as possible. And to me that's taking advantage of people. And so you see, this yen for money certainly growing all the time. PM: Did your father ever speak or talk about the jump in prices? EB: Were they going on when he was running his business? I never heard him talk about whether he would make a big profit or a little profit. fair-minded man. He was reall y such an honest, He said "a fair profit", and while he was a good business man, from this standpoint my brother when he worked in the store, Dad would caution him: "Now, you give absolutely accurate measure. Don't you give a bit over, or don't you give a bit under." This was honest, and while he wouldn't give an ounce he didn't take an ounce from the other person either. And he definitely felt an over-charge was not a fair profit. PM: Can you thi nk of any particular saying, or any particular principle that your father taught your brothers and sisters? Well, sometimes we've been told certain a saying like "a penny saved is a penny earned•, do you recall any of those sayings that stuck with you? EB: We were certainly brought up with this: Dad was con- stantly telling us never to buy anything you couldn't pay for. You're aware of the credit cards and all of this, we was brought up on that:"Don't buy anything unless you can pay for it." And we didn't, and this influenced me all my life, and really now I just never buy anything on credit, as popular as it is to do that. In fact, the salesmen at �10 the Inn would get thoroughly disgusted with me because I insisted upon paying for everything as it was delivered to me. Credit companies would not take my name as a reference because I never gone in debt on anything. But that was really the outstanding thing that I remember my dad teaching all of us, and certainly it has paid off in the long run. PM: Well now, let's get to about 1929 and just tell me a- bout how you got ••• What you were doing in 1929 and the business that you got into. EB: (bo; I+) · It was during the Depression and my father had filled the place. I think a fulfillment of hopes, thinking of it as it was when he came in: you never dreamed it could be operated as a public place because it had none of the conveniences of a tourist place. But my husband and I came up not long after the place was completed, and we just went in and started cooking, really, like we did at home. So, we gained the experience as we went along. PM: Your father built ••. What did he build in1929? EB: The Sunshine Inn. PM: The Sunshine Inn. And what was his reason for building the Inn? EB: In order that people--and he really had this on his heart, I think--that people could come to Blowing Rock and enjoy it without having to pay such fabulous prices. And for that reason all through the years we kept our prices down when they were going up all around us and people said, "Why don't you go up? You have to." I think knowing Dad's dream of that kept me from going up on prices all through �11 the years. PM: Now, how did you get into the business of the Sunshine Inn itself? Was there anything happening in 1929 that got you back here? EB: The Depression. My husband was laid off, he was working at the Southern Bell, and he was laid off. out work: we had to do something. So, we were with- And like I said, we knew nothing about this but it was something to hold on to and we were thankful that it happened just at the .time that Dad needed someone to operate this Inn. And while we were ig- norant at it, the tourist people then were not very choosey. I mean, they accepted things as they were, and if things were not convenient, if we had just one public bathroom, if everyone ate at the one long table, they accepted that and thoroughly enjoyed it. PM: Describe what the Inn was like in 1929 and how you actually operated it around 1929 . EB: Well, we added to it later, but from the beginning I think we had a fairly large kitchen with just a home range and we cooked on a coal stove. The pipe was constantly getting clogged up with soot and we'd have to take it down, clean it out every week. But we had no cabinets. I think groceries and things probably we just shoved under the table, I don't remember. But we certainly had none of the cabinet space, and the storage space, that you would think of that a hotel or inn might have. room. We had about eight bedrooms, one bath- One bathroom • • Everybody used the bathroom, bathroom. that one And the dining room, we had one long table and �12 everybody sat at this table. Really, it was just like one big family because they seemed to enjoy this type of .•• We didn't have a menu. We would carry the food and put it on the table whether they liked it or not, but they really seemed to like it, and people would comment how nice it was just to have the food served and not have to be bothered deciding for themselves from a menu what they wanted to eat. And the people just really seemed to enjoy the simple things. And I feel confident about this that while we may not have a had.Avery expensive and exclusive hotel, we had people prefer to stay with us rather than go to Mayview Manor. (Begin Side Two) PM: We were talking about the Sunshine Inn that your father built in 1929 and you just described the Inn. Can you des- cribe some of the people that came to see you? Tell us something about some of those people. EB: Well, when they came of course, they were perfect strangers, but they didn't stay strangers long . hecause in no time they were just part of the family and accepted us as the family. Now, we had cooks, the colored couple, that cooked for us for thirty years, and we had at that time a local girl, two, we only used two then, as waitresses. They girls not only wait on the tables, but they helped with all the cleaning up the rooms, you know. thought of using canned food. Of course, then we never We peeled our own potatoes, and we peeled our apples, we made our cakes, our ice cream, we killed and dressed the chickens, and the girls even helped with those things. And I paid them five dollars a week. �13 Five dollars, and they gladly did all this extra work. They changed there later. I remember one girl who ••• This was years later, but to see the changes that went about, we gradually had about ten waitresses and maybe by that time we were using busboys, too, or at least one busboy. But this young girl, waitress, and I think probably she was the- only one that was not a local girl that worked for me during all the years--but she decided their work was too hard and she thought I should hire a helper for every waitress. That is, this extra girl would carry the food in and place it on the table, and thereafter the waitress had gotten their drinks and the meal was finished, then her helper would clear the table and reset the table. Really, what it amounted to, the girl was picking up the tips and not doing the work. That was just one unusual waitress that I had and she didn •t stay with us long, because most of the girls stayed year, after · year, after year, and they, too, became part of the family. PM: Now, how long did a guest stay at the Inn when they came to stay? EB: Oh, they came probably the first of July and they stay July and August until we closed it Labor Day. PM: And back in 1929, around that period, what would it cost someone to stay at the Inn? EB: Around fifteen dollars a week, including three meals a day, and let me explain "three meals a day." Breakfast was big, they would eat a huge breakfast; then we didn't say "lunch", we said "dinner" in the middle of the day and that �14 consisted maybe of a meat and seven, or eight, or nine vegetables, and a salad and dessert. And the~e thing was what we called "supper", only it wasn't dinner it was "supper." We would serve maybe two meats and maybe as many as nine vegetables. I was holding up we always did. the I remember I used to count to be sure standard and having as many things as Usually about nine, including the fruits and vegetables, you know. three meals a day. And the people ate consistently I think invariably they gained weight during the summer, but they enjoyed it, so that was all right. PM: What would these people do for two months while they were staying here at Blowing Rock? EB: There was no entertainment of any kind at Blowing Rock, no attractions, no movies, no auctions, nothing they could do at the inn except for getting out and walking and taking hikes. If the weather was bad they stayed at home and sat around and talked to each other, or else if they became restless and wanted a little more activity they would get in the dining room and play games, and even move back the chairs and dance, just entertain themselves. PM: So the guests would entertain themselves, and would mingle and mix with all the other guests? EB: Oh yes, oh yes, and I think we were really so fortunate in having this type people who did enjoy other people, and it wasn't long until at the end of the season when they would begin to leave and go back home, they would say to each other, "See you next summer," and next summer they �15 would see each other because they looked forward to coming back with the same crowd that they had enjoyed the summer before. PM: So, we had the same people year after year, after . year. What would happen during the non-season after you closed at Labor Day? What all happened around the Sunshine Inn? EB: We just hibernated practically. we looked forward to that; In a way, of course, as much as we enjoyed the tour- ists we did look forward to everything being quiet and not having to work so hard. Really, though, you may not think pf it as a year-round job, but it was~ because we're do-it- yourself people and we did our own work. We'd start painting rooms, or doing repair work, or things that we ~ould do during the period that we were closed that we couldn't do during the summer. So really, it was more or less a year- round job. PM: What happened to your waitresses .and help? What would they do during the winter? EB: The girls were usually high school girls, so, of course, they in school during the winter. Our cooks had a little home down off the mountain and they did what everybody else did, we ..• Somehow or another, I never knew, but we managed to make enough money in the summer to survive the winter, so our cooks, the old colored couple, would just rest up during the winter. PM: Now, where would they stay during the summer? EB: We had a room right back of the kitchen and that was Maggie and John's room. �16 PM: Maggie and John, what was their last name? EB: Jones. PM: And they stayed with you throughout EB: Throughout the summer, yes. summer? They had their own room: just real convenient, just open the kitchen door and go right into their room. While I'm sure at first they must not have had their own bathroom, eventually we did add their own bathroom and also another room for additional help. So, we grew, and, of course, then we did everything on our own. The government--the state, the county, the town--didn't bother us. They could have cared less how we run and operated, and run our business, and we were entirely on our own. We didn't have to bother . with Social Security, sales tax, privileges, licenses, unemployment tax, which we did have to bother with later. And, of course, then, the health department was beginning to take an interest in the public eating places, and establishments, so we had eventually to change to their standards. They were very lenient with us, I think they were with the older places, but we certainly had to make certain changes and adjustments and probably that's the reason we put in more bathrooms, and changed equipment in the kitchen to meet the standards of the health department. PM: Do you recall how much Mister and Missus Jones were paid when they were working for you? EB: Did they start in1929? Yes, and I paid them together, as a husband and wife. They were a team so I paid them twenty five dollars a week in addition to their meals and their room, which they thought was great, and r~ I thought it was pretty good myself really to have paid them that much. But before they left I think I was paying them �17 instead of the combined salary of twenty-five dollars a week, anywhere from eighty to a hundred dollars each a week: that's how much things changed during that period. PM: What do you recall about Mister Jones and Missus Jones as they worked around the Sunshine Inn? EB: Oh, they were just so loyal to the business. In fact, they were just as concerned and interested in the business as we were, and certainly so conscientious about their work. to do and they felt responsible for that job. the cooking. They had a job It just wasn't Every morning John would go in and light the stove and while the stove was heating up he would go out and sweep all the walkways in the front, and the front porch. They seemed to take it for granted this was their job, and they did it. And if you happened to help them out, or to do some of their job, they resented it, because they felt like, ''Well, I'm not living to my bargain to do this job," and they really resented it. And they felt a concern if business wasn't good, in fact, they hesitated to take their money if we wasn't doing a good business. They said, "You haven't made this, so I hate to take the money that I know is hard for you to pay." But this was their attitude toward us and toward the business, too. PM: Did you ever have to discipline any of your employees, not only Mister and Missus Jones, but any of the other employees? How would you all settle the problems? EB: I think just like a family. If the girls 9ave us any pro- blems, I always hesitated on pointing out a girl in something that she had done that was not quite what we wanted her . to do, but I don't think I was ever cut out to be a boss. Even though �18 I felt they needed corrections, I was very hes·d .tant to correct them. I would sort of beat around the bush, you know, and call all the girls together for a"family conference", and we would sit down and somehow or other I would work around to this thing that had bothered me and not point out that "You're the guilty one," but it was something that had to be adjusted. So we had no hard feelings then between our relationship and the same way with John and Maggie. Invariably people are going to make mis- takes--sometimes burn up something, or burn some food--Maggie would be so distressed about this. She'd say, "Missus Burns, if I were in your place I wouldn 't put up with me. fire me." I would But then I had that feeling of closeness to Maggie, I would say, "Maggie, if I never made a boo-boo myself then I might fire you, but as long as I make them myself then I can't condemn you for making them." we had with our help. That was the relationship that In fact, I never says, "You work for me. You work with me." PM: Is that what you would say? EB: Oh y.es, and that really works. You get more loyalty from your help, and more work, really. PM: Did you work just as hard as they did? EB: Oh yes! I nev.er would ask them to do anything I wouldn't do myself, and I can't think of a single thing that I didn't do sometime or other: from a-waiting tables, cooking meals, washing dishes, and cleaning rooms. I went into every, every bit of it. It didn't bother me. PM: And was your husband doing the same thing? EB: Oh yes, oh yes. PM: Did he ever wash a dish? �19 EB: At the beginning of the season and in order to cut down on things financially while things were slow, he was the dishwasher. He .was the dishwasher. And I was the maid. Here such a good relationship existed between our guests and us, that while I did all of the maid work ... And we had a lot of fun with it because I'd knock on the door and say, "This is Mary the maid, may I come in?" Invariably they'd open the door and say, "Well, you don't have to bother our room, we've already made up our beds and straightened up our rooms, so there's nothing to do." maid work got easier and easier. So, my That's the type of people we had; that they really looked after themselves. PM: They'd continue to come back over the years? EB: Oh, year, after year, after year, after year. PM: Now, what was the shortest time, do you recall, right at the very beginning that people would stay at the inn? EB: Oh, people just never came for any less than two weeks. just didn't have any overnight guests. We If we were thinking from a financial standpoint that would have been great because you had to change sheets constantly, you had to clean rooms constantly, and really, it was good for us to have people come and stay for a long period of time, both from the work standpoint and from a financial standpoint. To see how people liked the simple things and the simple way of life, and the plain food and everything, it came to me from a man that we had .•. Of course, alot of people wrote in for reservations! they were coming to. They had no idea what kind of place But we had a Mister Dillon from Florida who, I think was awfully disappointed when he came in. He evidently was pretty wealthy, and he had written to us for a reservation, and we �20 had confirmed his reservation. His son brought him up, he didn't drive, he was rather an elderly man, and I sensed the minute he came in that he was disappointed, that he expected a little more elaborate accomodations, you know. Also, his son was, I think, at first skeptical. But it was a little late so they spent the night. But the next morning, and this he told me later, "We went over to Mayview Manor and looked around, and, r• he says, "we both had a feeling that Sunshine Inn wasn't quite up to what we thought it was going to be, so we went to Mayview Manor." But the man didn't drive, and he told his son, "Since I don't, I'll just go on and stay down at Sunshine for a few days anyway." So, it wasn't but. about two or three days until he was just the happiest old man. He said the simplicity had really been great for him, and the friendship, because we had a lot--I guess we'd say--"old maids" who were delighted in entertaining this old widower. His wife had died just a month or two before and he was really depressed, but he came out of it and thoroughly enjoyed it. And he told me later that he wouldn't stay anyplace else for anything in the world and he came back as long as we were in business, every summer. PM: How long did he come? Do you recall? EB: I believe about twelve years. And that was the nice part about our business because we kept having the same people over, and over, and over. And they seemed to fit in perfectly. Of course, everybody· has a few instances when things are not too pleasant. PM: Can you give me an idea of some of those unpleasant things? EB: Well, we had one family come in, and I say this through no reflection of the Jewish people, but they were Jewish and they �21 asked to see the rooms and they were very, very critical. And they were not at all friendly to the other guests, which horrified me. They had accepted the rooms, though and were going to stay, but I just had a feeling I don't know whether this is going to work out too well or not. So, I said to him as we went to the door, "I don't believe you're going to like it here. I just don't think you're going to like it here at all." I says, "We have the nicest, friendliest people, most congenial guests in the world, and I just don't believe you'll like it." So, that was one instance where .•• It just didn't happen often because it seemed like we were unusually fortunate in having the cream of the crop. PM: Can you recall any other unhappy--we don't like to think of all the unhappiness, but I think it kind of gives a balance, we do have those times when it's not happy. EB: Oh yes, I know we have to face them because they do exist, and too, I think it shows not always when there's criticism, and it has taught me certainly to be very lenient and understanding of eating places where things might happen that you certainly don't want to happen. Oh, we were just swamped! But we were so rushed one night. And I think really that I was aware, but not entirely aware because I was in the kitchen, and this family sat in the dining room and evidently didn't get but a few of the thing$that we served for our evening meal. I was rushing between the kitchen and the cash register and I went out with a big smile, you know, expecting him to say he had enjoyed the meal, which I had grown accustomed to. let me have it. But boy! he He said I ought to be ashamed of myself for �22 cheating the public like that. And he was really, really in- dignant about it. And my feathers fell just like that, but it was due to the rush and the girls just didn't get around to serving him, and serving him all the food we had and he was too impatient to wait for the food. Those things happen at every place, I'm sure of that, too. But I think about the funniest thing that happened: s~aying A couple came in to eat, they were not in the house, but they just came in to meals, and they had been coming in for several days and on the morning they · were leaving they came in for breakfast. Very nice, and had really complimented the meals everytime they'd eaten there. On that morning, though, that they were leaving they came in and ate cantiloupe, and they ate oatmeal, and we served as an order, too, eggs and two slices of bacon, or sausage, they ate that with toast. Then they ate hot cakes, then they ate French toast, then they ordered another order of eggs. Now, we never hesitated to give people everything they ordered because we advertised all they can eat, and all you want, for the same price. So, they ordered the second order of eggs and when the girl took it in they started fussing. suit them. The eggs were not fixed to They were either too soft or too hard. Well, she took that order of eggs back and got another order and she brought those and they just wouldn't do at all. worst tasting eggs they ever saw. times. They were the She took those back. Three Really, the people at the table next to them said it was just really terrible the way they talked to the girl in their criticism of the food. Of course, everybody knew they'd eaten so much nothing could taste good to them at that stage. The �23 girl finally sent for me to come in and talk to them myself, so I went in and I said, "Really, we'd do everything we could to please them and get their order straight, but if they were not happy with it then we · money." certainly would not take their So, they ended up by not paying for their breakfast. I think that was the point all the time. But you run into that, invariably you have a few who are very critical, and impatient, but we certainly were fortunate in having very, very few through the years. PM: What was the relationship that Mister and Missus Jones had to your guests? Did anything happen that would kind of give us an idea of what that relationship was as far as segregation goes? EB: Oh, Certainly Maggie and John had no thought of associat- ing with our guests. They would have hated that more than our guests would have resented it because the guests would come into the kitchen and talk with Maggie and John and compliment them on their cooking abilities, but Maggie and John would never, in any way, take advantage of what they thought their place was then. As colored people they felt like they had a place and they stayed in it, even to the extent that if we who felt as close to them as anyone could possibly feel, like they were part of our family, but they, in their humility, if we'd sit down at the table while they were eating they'd put their plates in their laps. PM: They'd still sit there and eat? EB: Sit there there yes, but not with their plate on the table. Now that I don't know whether it was just part of their humility �24 or if they felt the difference in the color, or why they did that I don't know. But to me it was significant of the ••• being the difference between the black and the white, as it was considered back during those days . PM: What about the relationship with their children and your children? They did have one son? (Begin Tape #2, side one) PM: We were talking about the Jones' nephew who lived with them and just the relationship that the nephew had with your own children as he was growing up. EB: It was just like brothers, especially my younger son, and believe it or not his name was Sweet. We called him Sweet. They had no ••. no consciousness that one was black and one was white. They could see no reason why they couldn't eat together, they couldn't sleep together, they couldn't take trips together. They saw no reason at all why they couldn't associate just as brothers. And they did, really. But at one point where they wanted to go off on a trip and spend the night to a ballgame, Maggie, bless her heart, she was just the greatest, she took Sweet aside and said, "Sweet , you just can't do do this. just don't do this." You She says, "Colored people just don't go off with white people like that," she says, "You just can't do it." And the same thing she told him when Ronnie wanted to spend the night in Sweet's room, "No, that just won't do. You're black and he's white and that won't do." But Maggie accepted it as such. PM: Did Maggie ever make any statements as to how she felt a- bout being segregated? �25 EB: Just one or two times. Not so much on segregation, the difference between the black and the white, as people not associating together, even the whites with the whites, which seemed down through the years people became more and more, I guess the word's selfish, they wanted to be by themselves. So, if there was any problem with that someone sitting with anyone else at a table, she couldn't understand that. wonder She just would what they would do when they got to Heaven. But and too of course, I heard her then so many times say that the nurses of the families that had Negro mamies to look after their children and they, too, seemed to have such a close relationship and Maggie would remark that she just couldn't understand how that relationship could be so close and yet be such a difference in their social standing, and in their opportunities. So she did feel it to a certain extent. PM: What about her husband, did you ever have any feelings that he felt that way? EB: John, he was I think maybe just really afraid to say any- thing along this line. Now John told me this, I don't know I that it's true, but way back when my father was building the ~ store and they were making brick to buildAstore, John says he helped, came up from his little place down there and helped make that brick, and he said there was such a feeling even then between the blacks and whites that he was afraid to stay up here, and that there were times when they had gotten stoned, I mean had rocks thrown at them, you know. So, John seemed to have a fear there of ever expressing his own opinion. back from that period. Maybe it dated �26 PM: Well, tell me about your attitude about business. did you approach making · money as such? Let~s How put it this way: how did you keep books, and how did you determine the prices that you were going to charge? EB: Well, to begin with, we didn't keep any books. Like I said, it was our own business so if we made some money all right and if we didn't then that was our bad luck, too. But as far as bookkeeping, we just didn't keep any books, or we didn't have a cash register. Then, of course though, as we bought wholesale I was conscious of prices in terms o.f the menus that we were serving. For instance, I knew that for two dollars we could not serve T-bone steaks, and I was conscious of the fact that certainly while country ham was one of our main attractions, especially on Sunday ·morning, the time came when we could not serve country ham at seventy-five cents for breakfast, you see. And I was conscious of prices from that respect, but during all those years I don't think I ever sat down and figured actually how much a meal would cost me and if we took in enough money to take care of the cost of the meal that I had served . PM: Well, how would you price breakfast, for example? What would go through your mind when you would finally say that this breakfast is going to cost seventy-five cen~, or a dollar, or however much it cost? EB: I guess really through, from experience. I thought,"Well, we're not going to lose money on this breakfast, we may not make any, but we're not going to lose money on this breakfast." I guess I thought more of volume that anything else, because if we had enough people then we'd take in more money and that would take care of the cost of the meal. As for actually sitting down �27 and estimating the price of the meal and our profit, later, of course, all bf the salesmen began to push portions, well , you know, "a portion of meat will cost you so much," but I'd get real irritated with them and said, "Well, I'm not concerned in portions," because our meals, , meats, were put on platters and we'd put enough portions on that until we had no doubt. We just didn't want.' to run out,so portions didn't mean a thing to me. And it was hard, really, to estimate the price of maybe a twenty-five, thirty pound roast in regard to portions because some people ate so much more than others. we couldn't count on that, you know. The way we served We'd let people have as much as they wanted• PM: Why do you suspect that the salesmen were pushing portions, and encouraging you to go by the portion route? EB: Profits. To really give us a bigger profit, I think. Then I would know just exactly how much my meat was costing me. that was the big item of course, the meat, it ~s Well now; it was then. So, I guess really, the way I estimated . was I paid a hundred dollars for the meat for a meal. Well, we'll serve maybe a hun- dred and fifty people, so I guess that's the way I really judged whether or not we were going to lose money or make money. Be- cause we could estimate then on the people we were going to serve. If this amount of meat will serve that many people, then I'm not going to lose money or I'm going to make money. PM: When you say I'm going to make money, would you say twenty per cent, or fifty per cent? Were you trying to just make a little money, or a lot of money, or break even? EB: We were trying to make a living, that was about it and �28 really we were pretty well satisfied with the living because we felt like if we made enough during the summer to live on during the winter we were doing pretty well. PM: When you say "to make enough to live on," do you mean enough to buy your own food, to buy your own fuel and have a little spending money throughout the winter? EB: Yes, and we thought we were doing pretty well to do that. And when you think about it, that's pretty good to work those months in the summer and ·then loaf the rest of the time, although we really didn't loaf. wouldn't rou That you can say is pretty good, say, really? PM: I feel good about it. EB: We didn't have money in the bank. In fact, I don't think really either of us thought about how much money we were making, we just took it as it came. If we made some money, okay, if we didn't,okay. PM: Did you save money over the years? EB: Yes, at the end of the season I sort of estimated how much would it take for us to get through the winter and if we had it on deposit and if I felt like we could afford a hundred or two dollars I'd put1in Watauga Savings and Loan, and it's amazing if you put it there and forget about it what it can do. That's part of my living today I'll tell you. PM: Well, can you tell me how has the tourist business changed over the years and when did you retire, 19 .•• ? EB: About five years ago. PM: That was 1969? EB: Sixty-nine. �29 PM: From 1929 to 1969, that's forty years, how did the business change? EB: The good and the bad? Well, I think the biggest change was the transits people that came in, people who were on the go. We had alot more over- night guests than we had back in the old days. And then in the contentment--I guess contentment's a good word--people were so content with the simple things, I mean not much entertainment, they didn't have to be entertained. But as years went on, it seems that that was the main thing they looked for in a tourist town was all the attractions, the recreation facilities, and the entertainment. this line?" "Well, what have you got to offer along So, that definitely was the biggest change, the restlessness of the people and their demands for entertainment and recreation facilities, which was unheard of in the earlier days. PM: You know, this area has certainly changed in those ways and they offer people quite a few things I think to do. you see that as positive? EB: Do Is that good or is that bad? Why certainly, it's helped the tourist business, there's no doubt about that. Whereas I would say it has doubled, the tourist business, over doubled since we first started. And I expect it's certainly due to these attractions that have come in: Land of Oz and Tweetsie. We still, if we want to progress as a tourist town, have a long way to go in attractions for the young people. Of course, from years back we had horseback rid- ing and hiking, those were things put on the brochures about Blowing Rock, but the young people don't care for that now. They want actual entertainment, some kind of amusement, and we've �30 cJI'"& got a long way yet to entice the young people in. And we Astill sort of a retired, older people's tourist town. PM: Can you recall any particular effort you were involved in getting more and more people to come here, maybe through the Chamber of Commerce, or •.. ? EB: We contributed to the Chamber of Commerce, but I don't think I was very cooperative in the advertising. Their ways of advertising to me, they would put all the posters, and do all the advertising in other states and along the highways. Then people would come here but be disappointed becau"'e they didn 't have the recreatio be they had expected . faciliti es or attra ctions that may- It was the same way at the Inn. very little advertising. Just in this past summer you see a great big s ign, "Sunshine Inn", dmm here. new. Well, really, that's That's new, \'e didn't have anything like that. like rather than We did I felt spend money putting out signs and advertising, if I could put that mane place more attractive for into something that would make my the people who came there, to me that would be a bigger advantage than all the signs that I could put out on the hig ways , because then tho se people were happy and satisfied and they would go and tell others, and to me that's the best way to advertis • And I felt like this as the same with Blow-i ng Rock, though certainly we cooperated with the Chamber of Commerce and all the projects that the town et forth as the aim to bring in more touri s t trade. PM: Your Sunshine Inn was a family-owned, run, operation, there were other attractions or homes t hat were not family-owned, could you tell a difference between the family-owned and the operations �31 that were not family-owned, in the way they wer EB: operated? Yes , yes , the people who-- I hope I ' m not s ying something that sometime later anybody might resent--but this certainly is refle cted on the local people a d their attitud e toward business . Because i r ecent years we have gotten so many , es- pecially from Florida , m .n or people who have come in and ought motels , or have go e into businese here. They seem purely t think of it fr o "We a financial and this is our aim, a n tandpoint: ant to make mo ey , r gardle "' s we 're going to ma ke mo ey." The local people, when it' s a local person, he doesn ' t have that attitude at all . It ' s more th inst ad of making tation . i te e t of the entire town , and alot of money , j u t have a good repu- So that local feeling toward bu ines~ how s I thi k in all the places , the e s tablis ments , that we have now . PM: Are there 1 any establi shment s r n , or different o~med by people fro or different state· , owned by them area~ have them op rat by s omebody el~e? nd th n they Do you know of many like that nO\<V ? EB: Do you mean that th PM: Rig t . EB: Yes . lo aJ people have sold out t o? It' s happening more and more an very, v ery few, eve local people . rig t now there s the motelR that are -""d and People fr o oth r se ction s o ght th em , and operat e them. f p erated by t he countr h v come in nd It ' s dist re ssing t me that o mariy of the busi e s e s and the shops up the street , 0 all of them are going out of the hand s of local people. PM: Is there any particular r aso that loc al people ar busines 0 for it other than the f ct ju . . t getting 'tired of their and selling to .hoever com s in? OvJri particular �32 Well , EB: y s and I '"' .r . talkine; about it t is morning i ur f eel ing toward the tourists and them taking the b sinesses in Blowing Rock. He says it ' not that feeling of" res tment, b t it's the feeling that the e people can have money , mo tly retired p ople , a a f ford. 1~0 can afford alot more tha the local peopl e And thy will offer maybe such a f nt f r a buf'i es s , t at th lo a J peopl for that pri ce , and they ' ve got the oney to do it. O\I But this And this is what rese ts becauce he and his wife c:ir- e li ing i apart el'.1t ric will certainly sell it has re ulted in real e tate going out of sight. my so t ic a litt r h re now of min, and they 1ould like v ry much t o hav . ah me, yet he s ayc all th ese p eople with so much money come in her an pay such fanta tic prices for thing no chance in the world he can have a home, real no~ there's at the price of state. PM: You didn't sense th·s back when you were a young girl? RB: No , oh no ! PM: Prices weren ' t being pushed up? EB: No , no and certainly local people o n d and operat ed m s t of the busi e s es, if not all of them back then, I expect th id. r M: Do they operate them with the same philosophy that you did of having a good busines caring about maki g EB: You know, I t i and a good reputatio lot of money? I can say tru.thfully that i of the local people becau e I think of now the and the inn right above us, th t e attitu e Marti Hol:.... , Green Inn, it seemed that they really enjoy d operati g their pla e in, not wit v..itl cut really and having the tourist the idea of making alot of money. come I r ally belie e �33 t hat wa the att i tude of most of t e l ocal people . Back then especiall y. PM: One th "ng I j st wanted to hit on , you ' v e already t al ked a bout it, can you r e call any of those game people played , in your pa rlor I guesc , when t hey came in as tourist s , a s summer peopl e ? EB : There ' s one they ca ll ed " Pi g" and I cannot r e e ber t he details of t he game , but I remember it wa s ver y hilar ious and evident l y t he pi g woul d put h i s f inger by th e s ide of hi s nose and t hen t here wa s a l ot of holl ering and whooping. On e t ine we had a senator, v·e ry eld erly, ret ired s enator there with hi s wife , and his health wasn't good and he had a nurse the r e with him . All of t he guests were in the dining room playing Pig, and of course, there were other games we played as children that you wouldn't think that they would enjoy, but they thoroughly enjoyed. You know Post Office and all this, they tho- roughly enjoyed it. But one night I think everybody was es- pecially having fun, it was sort of noisy you know, laughing and talking, and this old senator had a room on the same floor as the dining room and he was a rather dignified person anyway, ~( 'ffil ; ~ and suddenlyAin the room got quiet, just quiet as could be, nobody made a noise, we looked up and in the dining room door stood this old man in knees. his night shirt that just came to his And he was a little withered up sort of man anyway. He looked like something out of a story book standing there in the dining room door, but he was just as stern, he wanted to know what was going on in there, that his sleep was being disturbed. He went back to his room, but the next morning he came �34 to me, "Miz Burns, you weren't in there last night in all that noise, were you?" I sort of hung my head and said, "Well, I was in there." PM: What did he say about that? Did he ask you not to do it again? EB: No, no he didn't. but he soon got over it. Evidently he was irritated at the time, They had been used to a little more formality than we were able to offer at the Inn. bit His son, too was a political figure, so they were looking for him to come up and they wanted us to put on just a little extra, you know, when he got there. So, I had agreed with his wife that I would put bread and butter plates on, you know, and really put on a little bit, spread it on for him. It happened that he came in right while they were eating the noon meal and they were ready for the noon meal so instead of all that formality nothing could have been w0rse because we just took two tables and shoved them 811 together withAthe informality. It had no dignity to it at all. But he was perfectly happy. PM: What was the music that they liked? Was it local people coming in performing for them, playing the instruments that they play, or phonograph, or record player, or did they have any music when they played these games, or when they entertained themselves? EB: No, we just didn't have any music. If ever anybody wanted to tap their foot and clap they did it, but not any real music. I think that was one thing that we ••• Down through the years when you walked into a dining room you expected to hear music of some kind, the soft music you know, we never used it. Just the last �35 few years my husband got interested in intercom and he rigged up something where we could have it, but the reaction we had to that was certainly not good, because any number of people said, "Oh, why did you put in that music?" because one thing they enjoyed about coming there was the quietness and peacefulness, you know, and that they didn't have to listen to all this music. And so that was sort of symbolic to me, too, of what people, of what they enjoyed. You know , I wonder some- times if it's good to people to have all this music and noise while they're eating? PM: Do you recall from 1929 on when people began to change, and didn't play the parlor games and entertain themselves? EB: Just about the time, now, I don't remember dates, I don't know how many years it's been that the auctions came in. Of course, then, people begain instead of staying home in the evening and sitting around talking or singing--they sang, but no musical instruments--they would go to the auctions. And before we retired the house had been entirely empty, as quiet as a mouse after dinner. Everybody'd be gone to the auctions, or a movie, or up on the street window shopping, or off to see some kind of entertainment. PM: As time went on and you were in business, you said at the beginning you really didn't have to worry about the government, the town, the state, as far as running your business, how did that change over a period of time in terms of your relationship to the work, what you EB: ha~e to do? I just don't remember how long we operated without, shall I say , "interference" from the government or the state, that �36 certainly it was over a good many years. And I think maybe the first thing came the privilege license that we had to pay to operate and that we had to pay for every chair that we had in the ~ining room. This came as a privilege license from the state, and then later from the town, too, we had to pay the license from the town. (Begin Side Two) PM: We were talking about the different licenses and the af- feet the government had on business ..• EB: Like I said, I can't remember exactly when it started, but I do remember that gradually these men began to come in and ask ahouf questionsAyour business, and if you were doing so-and-so, and if you were ... Really, it seems to me like when the sales tax started, that thing;tbegan to get complicated then because they were constantly checking. They were doing their jobs, but at the same time taking alot of our time and alot of our money, too. For many years, what we made was ours, we had no taxes of any kind, but then before we closed ther~ocial Security, s~l<S there waSAtax, there was withholding tax--that I resented more than any other tax--there was withholding tax, unemployment compensation, that's the one I mentioned, though. You know the expression, it took a Philadelphia lawyer to keep books after that because these reports had to go in. And not only were these taxes put on us, but they told us exactly how to run our business, too. Now, this was true. They told us how many we could hire, how long they could work, under what conditions they could work, they could work so many hours and that's hard when you're not working by the hour as you don't in the �37 tourist business. And at what age you could hire someone. Really, I guess if I would say I was thankful to be out of it that was the reason because of the things that were involved in a small business like that. lie PM: Come 1969, you were glad toAgetting out of the business? EB: From that standpoint, yes. For sentimental reasons, and certainly tradition, made me very sad to . leave i~. And I think the fact that we had been there forty years, that we'd build, and it wasn't just that that I hated it, too, because we'd left so many disappointed people. These people that had been coming to us for years and years and counted on spending their vacation with us, they were without a place to stay because you know it's hard to accept a new operator after being used to one for forty years. You know, no matter how well they do, your old people are going to find something that's wrong. So, about their management, I not only felt hurt in a way for my ownself, but to think that I had let these people down, which I was getting really to the point where I had no choice. We had been in business long enough and we were giving out under it. But you feel, "Oh, they're going to be so disappointed this summer when they come back." PM: Is there any one particular family, or couple, or single person, that you recall came back more than anybody else did? EB: Well, we had any number of people who came as long as ten, twelve years every summer, but I suppose that one that really stands out is Mister and Missus Butler. He was a busi- ness manager at Elon College and he and his wife spent their honeymoon with us when they were married, then they never missed a summer, until we went out of business and then by that �38 time they had a daughter, I believe about twelve, fifteen years old. . PM: Well, I've certainly enjoyed talking to you and hope you've enjoyed it. EB: I've thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm afraid I haven't been much help. (The End) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Morgan, Pat Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Burns, Ethel Interview Date 1/5/1975 Location The location of the interview. Blowing Rock, NC Number of pages 43 pages Date digitized 9/22/2014 File size 27.4MB Checksum alphanumeric code 26038cec110dad3b109b51bc825c7ab7 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape353_EthelBurns_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ethel Burns [January 5, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morgan, Pat Burns, Ethel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Burn, Ethel Description An account of the resource Ethel Burns grew up and eventually took over the Sunshine Inn, an establishment that housed "the summer people" or the upper-class tourists who came to Blowing Rock over the summer for vacation. They housed them and provided three meals a day for fifteen dollars a week. She recalls that everyone felt a sort of reverence for the summer people but her father "still felt his authority and his own individuality in his relationship to them." The tourists didn't have much to do in Blowing Rock in those days, only hiking and walking and spending time with the other residents. bed and breakfast Blowing Rock Chamber of Commerce community club Ethel Burns Great Depression Land of Oz Rowan County segregation summer festival summer residents The Sunshine Inn tourist business Tweetsie