1 50 53 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7bfe768740570b7362804ca24404718f.pdf 049b349af65133fac2a31f7e2871a6d8 PDF Text Text An interview wi t h Robert Proffit by Joseph Skelton and Deloris Proffit, on October 3, 1980. The interview was conducted at his home. Mr. Proffit: John Green was probably the first person entering the land we know as Meat Camp now. This entry was in 1788 and the orginial deeds which started at the mouth of Howard ~ s c reek to the New river and it comes up to the lower end of Meat Camp. The line runs through below where Earl Green lives now, goes pretty well east and wes t across there. And the Ragan property joined that. I don ~ t have an} P·IIOO f he re r- on l the "first one, just ex actly where he lived. I don ~ t think Gre en lived in Meat Camp valley He lived back on the other side where Forrest (G r een) lives in that hollow. But still the property comes in Heat CAmp. Then the Ragan land begin with that line and it run thr~ ugh the upper end of the Wilson property where Darrell Green owns now, and across on each side. And it will cover the area you are interested in probably alot more. Now Peter Ragan lived there somewhere, on the land that he entered in the 1780's 90 ~ s. He had a son named James who inherited all of it as far as I know. I don~t have the re cords on it, It wa s probably entered but it is certain he lived in the country at least before 1790 and its certain that James Ragan owned the property. Now from there on the greater partc of the rest of Meat Camp was entered by David Miller. There',s tracts here and there that he missed for sorfie reason. It mifht have been one or two entries that he didn ! t have, I mean that someone else had got in--while he was entering it. And do you want to take in the flat woods and Longhope on this? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Pro f fit: Well it was up-- James Brown, I think, a Brown anyway entered the flat woods that was in the 1780 ~ s. Henry Harrison ?fains lived on LOng hope, he moved there in 1788. And xcept for that I th i nk David Miller owned practically all the rest of Meat Camp. He entered it in the period a little after 1800 to maybe 1830 or so. And some of it may have been entered in his children ~ s names. They inherited all of it, or all of it he didn ~ t s e ll. Now let !s see you can f lip that off a minute i f you want t o . Now the Ragan ~ s f amily-- I guess Ralph still owns part of that place over there where Bud lives. Floyd Norris if he hadn , t sold it owns a patch in there. His mother was one of them. The rest of it has all been. sold. It reached from well at least from the top of Chestnut Grove hill to Riddle's fork. David Miller owned land on Riddle's fork too. He had one of the fir s t entries ever made but it was over at Green Va lley school house- That's Just about where his house was. He owned from there way back over on the big Hill side that was entered by h~ s daddv . And after he married he started enteru.3 on the creek here. I'll get this burned down a little and we'll go on but before we turn it on (in reference to his pipe). I can give you a list of several people that I've found that lived here. And I don't know that I've got them all. Do you want a description of who lived there at this time on the place and things like that now will that help ~ you? �2 Interviewer: Yes, it sure will. Mr. Proffit: Now Joseph Miller was one of the earliest settlers above the Greens and Ragans. He settled on this place here about 1834 I'd say. He was married in 1834 and probably lived here then. And his land went from I couldn't tell you exactly, but it took in over the top of this ridge over here and over nearly to Riddle's Fork and it went up the creek to about where Will Winebar?er lived or a little above there. And the next one William C. Miller moved to Upper Meat Camp about 1835. He wasn't related to these. His land joined the land Henry Proffit owns now and Flo Proffit owns. It went up somewhere near the Pottertown Gap on the right and went back down toward Zionville on the other side. And he bougnt some of it from David Miller and I think he entered some. And his house was where Lark's family lives now. Levi Wilson lived on the other side of the creek where Gladys Moretz lives. He owned a lot more land than sne owns but his house was somewhere in that bottom, and he lived there from maybe 1835-40 on to the late 50's, he moved to that section in 1839 or 40. He moved into the country in 39 he may of moved there directly or he could ~ have lived somewhere else awhile but he was there probably by 1840, that's the place they call the Tate place now. Tom Davis moved from Holdman's Ford in Wilkes County to what they call the Davis place now. Jack Bryan owns it. You know where it is it's up over the Ridge. And Joha Proffit moved from Holdman's Ford in 1841. He built just out to the right of where Henry Winebarger lives. lie had a mill down on the creek just below Proffit's Grove church. I Can remember when you could see the timbers where the water wheel ~as mounted. Teey are gone no · but --they was logs in the creek back 40 years ago. And this was evidently land that David Miller1 ·m~ssed. The Proffit boys entered it I think. And then David Miller moved from Riddle's Fork up on Meat Camp about 1844. !le lived in an old house do~m just in front of where Roby Wineba~ger lives in that bottom. Jake Winebarger settled here in about 1848. He built his first house just behind where Earl Bryan's house is in that little bottom. Then latter on he built down where Harvey Trivette's house is. You can't remember the old house can yo81 It was a log house. Interviewer: No Mr. Proffit: Well Harvey tore it down and built that house thats there now on the same spot. And he built it in the late 1860's. Now this Winebarger was a millwright, Carpenter, and cabinet maker; he built yha~ orginal mill for John Proffit up on b~e creek before th was married. And he built the Winebarger milJ l Rt t er on. Of course the orginal has been gone a long time this is, , I think, ~ the fourth mill now. And Levi Blackburn moved from down on New river to Meat Camp in 1839. He bought land from Joseph Miller there and he lived on up the hollar above where Richard Greens family lives. He owned that place too. Now he was a Methodist minister and he started the Hopewell church about 1850. The orginial building stood just below the old cemetary down on a little knoll. Latter on they built another one just to the right of the old cemetary above where the road is now. Around 1900 they built the new building over on top of the ridge, where it is, of course its been remodelled and its been moved a little. It blowed off the pillars in 1905 and they had to do something so they pulled it on up on top of the ridge, it was down �3 on this side a little. And they turned it around to face Riddle's Fork. And there was a man named William Tridy that lived on the upper end of the creek on 1850 . He was listed in the 1850 census. He evidently wasn't there so long . There's a place still called the Tridy cabin field, I think Carl Moretz ' s family o~'lls it now, Some of the Moretz ' s. Corning back down Jerry Ellison moved in th the iandr that Clyde Winebarger and Herman Bryan owns now and that was in the 1840's. He married one of the David Miller daughters. This was iand that she recieved as her inheritance from the orginial Miller entries. Efird Miller was one of David ' s sons . He lived on the place that _' Bernard Hodgeson owns now. The Dayton Winebarger place was part of it to. And he probably moved there in the 1840 ' s. He married one of John Woodring ' s daughters and she died and then he didn't marry again up until 1850's. But, I imagine, he probably built there when he first married. John Woodring settled on what we call the Woodring Hollar somewhere in that section about 1839-or-40. Jesse Vannoy moved here from Wilkes in 1850. He owned the place now where Dayton Winebarger lives where Willy Proffit lived. Cristian Lewis married another one of the Miller girls . He moved to this over here where R. 0. Mains owns and the Claude Norris family and probably more but anyhow it covered that . I'm not certain where there was any other outside settlers before that time or not there could have been of course . Now after 1850 most of the new homes in M eQt Camp was set. up by families; children that was r raised here. James Ragan had three sons. John built his house a little , above where Bud:s house is now . Up in that hollar. Calvin built down on the place where Earl Green owns--no I'm wrong there - J . B. Green owns . He built a house just down below where J. B. ' s house is . And Richard built over here where Austin South lives the old house was down in that little hollar just the other side of Austin's house. And on the head of the creek William Proffit built on the land where Claude lived . His house was just above where Claude's barn is out on that little fidge. John Bryan built up in the hollar where Herman lives. Oan Johnson bought the place and lived in the s ame ~ house that John built for years and then he tore it down. Jonathan Miller moved out :Ln the place where Roy Shipley lives now. The house was, I think, a h below or maybe behind the Shipley house. And he may have owned the Todd place too, I don ' t know for certain about that . James Proffit built about where Ralph Moretz's house is now maybe a little below it . John Proffit Jr . built over on t he other side abo ut where Jack Bryan ' s barn is. Austin Miller built pretty close to where Ann Miller's house is or Albert's . John Moretz built on up where Gene lived . And Edmund Blackburn built over across the hill here in this hollar, I don ' t know what it ' s called. But anyhow it was on land that Henry Proffit owned its beens9ld to some bunch of developers now. But it was between the top of the ridge up here and where Richard Green lived . Hopewell Methodist church seemed to have been the first one on this Meat Camp section. It was determined 1850. Levi Blackburn moved in 1839 and they probably had serv~ c es in homes for awh i le but as far as I know they didn ' t organize a church until about 1850 possi~ly a little before of after . I ·-believe I already described where the church stood. The next one was the Meat Camp church. It was established July 6, 1851. And it was a pretty strong congregat ~ on, not so strong when it was set up but it was a fast growing congregation . The orginial meeting house there stood in the little bottom down below where the church house is now . It belongs to Gladys Gragg's . �4 Between 194 and the old cemetary. And I don't know just when the new house was built but probably 40 to 50 years af ter that . And that ' s the only churches I know of on Meat Camp before the Civil war . What I've heard told of, I've a book on Stoneman's raid and ed on Meat CAmp at the time. you would just be things that Interviewer: got a little . The Van Noppen waman she wrote there was a few references to things that happenBut I Can't seperate that. What I can tell I've heard people tell. Well. Mr. Proffit: Well in the war then first calls evidently was for volinteers they had a conscription too. But they was people volinteered that wouldn't have been conscripted, to old or physically probably wouldn ' t have passed . And theymay habe been some I don ' t have. I know some that would have been consideres, Possibly from Meat Camp, But still they are outside a little of the scope that we are covering here. I ' ll give you the names of the people I've found that went into the confedrency service from Meat Camp proper. That was John Blackburn, John Bryan, Elbert Davis, Albert D~vis, Harvey Davis, Thomas Davis Jr., William S. Davis, Richard Green, Alferd Miller, David Miller, Edmund Miller, Elferd Miller, Franklin Miller, John Miller, LOzeno Miller, John Moretz, David Proffit, Jesse Proffit, Thomas Proffit William Proffit, Marcus Woodring, Rufus Woodring, Now out of these Thomas Davis Jr . , Richard Green, David Miller, Edmund Miller, John Miller, David Proffit, Jesse Proffit, and Thomas Proffit all died in the service . There was a time went the war was going on there was raids through the country mostly by outlaws. Stoneman's raid was the only one I know of that was offical. But at times there was bands that would come through and rob the people and go on. There ' s one story of some that went to Jacob Winebarger's and took his horse. They went to William Miller ' s and swapped with him . Left an old pug that looked like it was dead on it's feet . After the war and the horse was feed up it turned out to be a good animal. And I ' ve heard them tell my great-grandmother lived at the Shipley place, it was the Jon a th an Miller place then, he was her uncle . Ane she brought some corn over to tne m il ~l that John Proffit had on the creek and wheb she started back to get her mill she noticed some people coming through the gap of the mountain on horses and she tried to get to the mill before they did, but she'd .; ust got her mill and started back when thay rode up and they took the mill hwa¥ I ~rom her. It was the last she had, and she had to go ovee to Trade over in tenn . to get some more . And another time they had some maple sugarburied . They'd made it and got afraid someone would come in and take it so they buried it in the woods . It started raining and after a few days of fain they got afraid that would ruin it, and went and took it up and that night a bunch come and took it away from them . They was other < <r· things. Out of all this bunch of soldiers Elfird Miller deserted. He ' s the only one I know of. He got back home and layed out in the mountains till the war was over. 1 Interviewer: Is that--- Were roost of the men you mentioned were they confederate? Mr. Proffit: All confederate . �5 Interviewer: soldiers? ..'Were most of the rad.eds that went on here donel by the northern Mr. Proffit : Well I suspect mostly it was just what you might call the trash of the country . Deserters and people who layed out to keep from having to serve and maybe it could have been some sympathers with the northern cause. Interviewer: Yeah . I know I was just wandering because of how bad some of the raids where by northern soldiers further down south. I didn't know i f maybe it might have been some of them . Mr . Proffit: Now they was a trail through in the Tenn. Beach creeR c0.yntry . That was used quite a bit for people who deserted and wanted to get to the north . And they may have been some gone through1here . Over the Rich mountain gap, but from what I've heard I think most of the raiding through here was just you might say a bunch of outlaws. People who had found a way to live off the other people. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Proffit: in that. I don't think they was any organized connection with the north There was a school that stood down in this bottom that belongs to Darrell Green now. Of course it was just a conscription school. The people who had children to send payed so much for the course. Interviewer : Uh-huh . Did they pay the teacher? Is that how they did it? Mr . Proffit : I think so, yeah. There wasn ' t any school board's anything like that. Just somebody that was capable of teaching would go through the community and get parents to agree to pay. Maybe a dollar or so a student. Interviewer: something? Un-huh. Did he work kinda like a circuit rider preacher of Mr . Proffit: I don ' t know how that was. Wehad a few people in the country that was qualified as school teachers. I can remember hearing that my greatgrandmother said all she got to go to school was when she would slip off and go down to this school. Her daddy wouldn ' t let her go . He wouldn't pay for the course. As far as I know that was the only school within reach of this section until after --till after the war. pause . in tape. l r. -'- t1:, . Mr . Proffit: He:.;wa·s ' brought r b~ John Moretz. He bought the Cooper place down on the other side of Big Hill . It included part of Big Hill . He put in a set of mills there several different kinds of mills and brought Jacob Winebarger with him to keep up the mill, sharpen his stones and all of that. Interviewer: Un-huh . �6 Mr. Proffit: Then Winebarger married one of his girls and moved over here on Meat Camp. Interviewer: Un-huh. Did they have any stores or anything? Mr. Proffit: Not back at that time. Gargan Council had a store at Boone. That was-- I think he started maybe in the 1820's. He had the first post office in the country too. Interviewer: Un-huh. People were just what more self sufficient than they needed a store for I guess? Mr. Proffit: Yeah. All Council could have sold was just mostly stuff they couldn't raise here. After a while of course they probably got to bringing in more stuff like it has been ever since. But orginally I think it was jist finery mostly and maybe salt and stuff like that. The only store I know of that was anywhere close here was down --was down on Big Hill and that was after the civil war throgh . You've probably heard it called Soda Hill. - l· Do you remember hearing that? P Interviewer: I can't think, I don't know. Mr. Proffit: I can remember when they still called it Soda Hill but its called Big Hill now. But they said the reason they called it that was cause the i· first soda that was ever sold in this country was brought there. .) Uh-Is that drinking soda or baking soda? No baking soda. Interviewer: / Interviewer: Mr. Proffit: 5 They still don't call drinks soda here. Intervierer: Yeah. I guess that's just where where I'm from. 0 Interviewer: / ,) Irterviewer: Yeah. They call them soda. Mr. Proffit: Now what do we need after the civil war? just the same kind of thing? What particular Interviewer: Yeah, What kind of schools, churches, were there---Did the area change a whole lot after the civil war-- were there a lot of changes that happened in here? Mr. Proffit: Not that I know of on Meat Camp. There might have been some Cilffeqmce pt6bablj would· .have been but the way of life all that was the same on. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Proffit: There never was anything here to begin with except just the natural things and--- <• �7 Interviewer: Well that's enough. Mr. Proffit: There was no business of ever carried on here . And there's not that unless you have improvements . Of you could pull by tracters things like was very little change in general. ~~ any kind, farming was all that was room for a great amount of change in course after they begin making machinery that has changed . But I guess there ~ cl' ' ..,::' Interviewer: Part of it or something? Yeah . Mr . Proffit: It's actually been a part of five counties in its history but from the time it was settled in here. Wilkes county was formed in 1778 . I think and it included this. This was all Wilkes county then on some says to Mississippi others claim it didn't go that far, but anyway it took in a great part of Tenn . And I don't know I may have given you that date wrong did I say 1778? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Proffit : Well that's what I meant anyway . Interviewer : 0 . K. Mr. The and was but Proffit: In 1799, Ashe county was formed and it included all this. line·-went t not , to far from where it is now between Wilkes county, AShe Watauga and partof Mitchell was together at that time all of Avery county in Ashe county. No that ' s wrong part of Avery was formed with Mitchell, a good part of it was Watauga territory and Watauga was formed in 1849. Interviewer: Now Watauga was formed out of thos five counties? Mr. Proffit: No part of that was took off Watauga . Avery county was in Watauga county until 1911. The line between Ashe and Watauga is close to where it was orginially. There's been a few changes to straighten places. And there ' s been other changes, no point in going into it, a little along . The v Caldwell line and so on . But tis section in here sll that's in Watauga now was in Ashe until 1849 that's from 1799 on . Now from there was three years that David Miller represented Watauga county of course he didn't live in Meat CAmp then he lived on Big Hill. But he owned most of Meat Camp he was representive in 18-- I think 1810, 11 and 13 . He skipped one year . It was one year terms then. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mr. Proffit: And as far as I know he was the only politican that we could clairp, Yeah, I was right 1810, 11, and 13. ~'::. -10 Mr . Proffit : I may not have anything down on the others and their homes latter if I don't we can put it together. You've turned that thing off . END OF SIDE ONE . �8 Interviewer: Road, about the same as it was then? Mr . Proffit Yeah, in places the old road bed shows a good it of the way it was , over in the bootom a little out here . You may have noticed this low place in the bottom . And up through there I don't know just about where it left up about Bernard Hodgeson ' s I guess it took up around the spur and went up around the hill instead of going up the creek. Expept for that it's pretty well the same. Now down below here it crossed it about 8 or 10 times . But outside of that well it ' s still about the same instead of going straight it went the easiest way I reckon. Interviewer : What about briages? They just went through the creek? Mr. Proffit : Yeah, had a footlog for walkers--drive horses through the creek . Interviewer : Did they~I know they did in a lot of the rest of the country . Did they get --have people volunteer when they started putting--really cuttin the roads out alot, putting the tops on them. Did they have people volunteer to do that in this area . Mr. Proffit: That was appointed. I don't know wheather local, probably was a state law that a man over 21 years had to serve so many days a year in road work. When they wanted to patch or repair it, they just had an owerseer that notified the people to meet at a certain time . I think it was three days that every man had to give in a year. He could hire somebody if he wanted to, but somebody had to work in his name. Interviewer: Uh- huh. Was that ever really inconvient for the people here? Mr . Proffit : I don ' t know of course at that time everybody just worked at home I guess it wouldn't have made the difference it woild now. After people got on jobs of course it would be inconvient, but when you ' re just working the farm I don't imagine it bothered to much . Interviewer: I was thinking like as times when they might be harvesting and digging up their crops, that i it might be inconvient for them. Mr. Proffit: as possible . Well, I imagine that was arranged probably to avoid that as much Interviewer: Un-huh . Mr . Proffit: Now on the other things-the work- I mean in the community we had several people that could do several different kinds of work, blacksmiths, and cabin makers, and shoe makers and all that. Practically everything was made in the community. Interviewer: When people needed something like that or if they wanted a cabinet made and they went to the cabinet maker did they--I imagine they didn't always pay them with money . They might have changed services or bartered with them ~.· �9 most of the time. Mr. Proffit: Yeah, that was common if a man didn't have money to pay he might have something he could swop for it or work a day or something. Interviewer: I'd kinda like to do that myself. Mr. Proffit: And it didn't run to much. It might have cost you maybe a dollar to have a bed made or--of course that was still alot then waking for about a quarter a day. Interviewer: Let's see- as far as the schools what was the first public school that they had in this area. Mr. Proffit: I guess Winebarger, no I don't know wheather it was called Winebarger then or not. There was an old school that stood where Proffit's Grove church is now on the same spot, but I don't think, yeah it probably was a public school too. I mean open to anybody and it was probably built not to long after the war. After the building got old they condemned that bottom above where Wilcox lives and built a school house in it. That was the Winebarger school there. And I think that's all the schools that's been on Meat Camp. Three's all I know of. Interviewer: Did people usually donate their land and the building materials in order to get a school. Mr. Proffit: They did on the first. Now I dbn't know about the second school. I don't have any information on it at all. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mr. Proffit: They condemned the land for the Winebarger school. It belonged to Chap Proffit and I don't think he wanted to sell it. So they just condemned it and paid him whatever a comminitee said it was worth. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mr. Proffit: And I don't know now about the building. Who paid for it? It could have been paid for by state funds . Of course that was--I don't know the daoe., it could have been after WWl or it could have been before. Interviewer: Unl huh. Mr. Proffit: Proffit's Grove church-if you want more on churches was started orginally as an arm of Meat CAmp, I think I've got records on that somewhere if you want me to check it would be better than guessing. Interviewer: Sure. Mr. Proffit: The next church on Meat Camp was the Lutheran Church. I believe. Do you know what they called it? (Question directed to Laura Proffit) Laura Proffit: What? �10 Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: Mr. Proffit: Laura proffit: What did they call the Lutheran church what name ,the old one? The What? The old Lutheran Church? Up here; Well what was the name of that church? Mr. Proffit: Well anyhow it was the Lutheran congregation. down below Lucy Winebarger lived. Laura Proffit: Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: I know what the---Well just let it go. But I can't the more think of it than nothing. Mr. Proffit: When they rebuilt they called the new one have been the same as the old one but I don't know. Laura Proffit: I know where the church is and all that. many and a many of a Sunday up there. Interviewer: Now when they rebuilt ~1ount Well what was it? Zion it could I went to Sunday School Where was the first one located? Mr. Proffit: It was on the bank just abive where Dayton Winebarger's house is around a little behind it. Right straight in front of the old Willy house. And it was--oh-I don't know-50 yds above. the Willy house I guess or above the road. It's been down for 30,35 years or more. Laura Proffit: The f irst Christmas card I ever seen. He sent me and Lunda. Sent it to both of us. Put both our names on it. And I guess its in there in that old trunk yet. Well what in the world--I don't know. Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: not? Mr. Proffit: Well let it go. We'll get on with this. It wasn't . Mount Zion was it? I don't know whether it was or Anyway it vrns started about 1874. Laura Proffit: Now that one and Hopewell and Meat Camp was the only churches there was through this country at that time. Ana people went to them all when there was meetin or something, everybody -people would all go to each of them and they'd be houses full. Mr. Proffit: Well drop that now. We're going on. The Proffit's Grove church according to the minutes of Meat Camp was first established as an arm of Meat Camp in Feb. 17 or 1890. They had a-- as it says here- a protractal meeting at the head of Meat Camp. Condu c ted by J. F. Dotson, L.A. Wilson~ David Green and they reciev ed some members from that and granted premission to hold services there as f ar as down to Meat Camp and from then on for several years they had minutes in there records from this arm. They begin making up money then to try �11 to build a church house. And I don't know exactly the time I think about 1911 maybe they got it finished and seperated from Meat Camp. That seems to be all I~ got on that. Interviewer: What about the Methodist Church? M~Proffit: Yeah, it was--I forget- Ithink there's a sign on the side of the house there that tells when it was organized- seems like that-- It may have been around 1911 or 12. I'm not certain now. All the people up there went to Hopewell to they got that one started. I know in the early 1900's they still had funeral services for Methodists at Hopewell then. I imagine that it probably was around 1910 or 11 when it was built. I believe that's the last one until the Holiness church wasn't it? I don't rememoer that was in the 50's sometime I don't remember the exact date maybe 55 or 6 somewhere along there could have been 54. Interviewer: Have the people in the different churches always interacted pretty well er have the different churches always interacted pretty well with each other? Mr. Proffit: Well, not to a great extent 1n some ways they have. IN community affairs I think they did pretty much. In there religion they didn't tend to as much. Each one of them was more of less to themselves a lot of people attained services other places but that was about the limits of it. Interviewer: But they did-they were- they did pretty well together in commmnity affairs and stuff like that? Mr. Proffit: Yeah, as far as I know there wasn't any what you would say antagonsism it was just-- .They just differed on what · they believed. Irterviewer: Have different community affairs or at least needs community affairs have they changed very much? i f\' community M~Proffit: Yeah there's been a lot of change in the way things are done--back in the early time according to reports at least they worked together a lot. In the fall maybe they's have corn s lfckins, bean stringins maybe things like that. The whole community about would gather in and do whatever was to be done. In the spring maybe they'd have log rollings clearing fields about all the men would ho for that. Maybe the women go and cook. I guess that's been the biggest change you don't find any of that now. No logs to be rolled no corn to shuck either and it was said that back in the time after the civil war for years when people would have there corn in there was a custom more or less to put a gallon of whiskey under one shuck or pack and when they got down do it. Then whoever get it first got the first drink out of it. Interviewer: M~Proffit: Then pass it around Yeah Interviewer: I thenk its interesting that they were able to take something like that and make it into a community type of affair and have fun with it as well as They could take there work and have fun with it. Its kinda hard to do these days. �12 Mr. Proffit: Yeah. There conditions was all different. You couldn't very well get anything now to draw a whole community in. Of course the community is a whole lot bigger than it was then to, people I mean. Irterveiwer: Right Mr Proffit : And travel and all that was pretty much restricted to home . You couldn't go any distance in a day and no roads either . Back when they first settled this country there wasn't ever a wagon road. Interveiwer: Do you think. One thing I ' ve noticed about Heat Camp is that there's not a whole lot of development in this area and ah. llr _ E roffit ~ : No Inte rveiwer Which I think is good for this area. would like to see a little bit more development. Do you think people around here Mr. Proffit: I'd say most of them probably wouldn't . Interveiwer : Um-huh Mr . Proffit : For one thing its pretty well the same families now as it was back early. Practically everybody in this community is related and with some exceptions most of land still belongs to the descendants of the orginal families . I think Probably that would make some difference . Interveiwer : I hope so M~Proffit: Developing would bring in outsiders . That nobody knows. Of course this Proffit place over here on the back of the mountain was sold to some developers. I don ' t know how much of it has been resold . There ' s a few houses been built on it. I don't know who anybody is . Whether they ' re even from any where in this country or not . I doubt it . Interveiwer : Do most of the people-the few that do move into this country-do they adapt pretty well . Do you think? Mr Proffit: Well I think so of course some of them just stay to themselves . They don ' t get acquainted to many. People here don ' t bother them . Interveiwer : People still pretty close knit? MrProffit : Well pretty much . Nows there ' s a few, the Todd family out on the section toward the flat woods. 0 dpn ' t think they mingle so nuch with the people but yet they don't slight them or anything like that. They ' ve been here several years and I think most people who know them seem to like them . There ' s a man bought a place up here above the mill flune, everyboky that knows him said he ' s a nice man but they'er was very few that knew him . But I think he's sold it now . �13 Interveiwer: Um huh Mr Proffit: But s-till that's not qu~te the same as a development in the since that you mean. I mean a family here and there. Itterveiwer: Right, Yeah I mean like people coming in and building apartments and that sort of t9ing. Mr Proffit: Yeah, I understood what you meant. Itterviewer: Yeah, I think its really unique to this area compared to the rest of .Watauga county that that hasn't happened yet and I hope it never does. Mr. Proffit: Yeah. Interviewer: But maybe the strength is in that this area still in the land everythings still owned by the folks who are descends of the orginial settlers. Where as in so many other places its all just been sold. Mr. Proffit: Mostly everybody involves strangers. Interviewer: They come from some other part of the country, where they come in here and they, they don't really take the time to look at how people live here am the way people are here. They kind o f expect them to be the way. that they are, f rom where they come from. Mr. Proffit: That makes one considerable difference; you hardly ever find customs the same in two places. There are people here, practically all of them can trace connectiona back to some of their earlier families, some of 'em know about all. Mr. Proffit gets up to clean his pipe and tape is shut off at this point. Cut back on as Deloris is asking about work ane outside of the area. Mr. Proffit: I don't believe I quite understand what you mean. Interviewer: Well, I mean like working in Plants. Mr. Proffit: Well, I don't hardly know that. There wasn't but very little of it before World War LL. Course there wasn't any factories here in the county till after the war I guess. Pipe shop at Boone may have been the first to employ any number of people, it didn't employ a lot. And I'd say that was probably in the forties--must have been. Tobacco warehouses in Boone went in somewhere along there, '39 or '40 maybe and that employed a few people at a particular time but it was just seasonal . Some people went to Lenior and other places to work in the furniture factories before that, but it was just one here'n there. There was a hosiery mill--! don't remember the name of it. That could've been in the '40's. And later on I guess probably that I RC may have been t~e first big factory. Probably Shadowline was next and the saw plant may be the last one.Vermont American. Interviewer: There aren't any plants in the Meat ·Camp area ar all? �14 Mr. Proffit: There's H & T Chair down here in my place. It's a amall operation. Course there was a few years that they did a good business. Its still runnin', but-------I don't know of anything else. Interviewer: Most other businesses that would be in this community be like some of the stores? would ~ just Mr. Proffit: I suppose it would. I don't think of anything that --nothing that employs many people or furnishes much business except that. Interviewer: And farming------that some people might do. do it on a large scale anymore, do they? I guess they wouldn't Mr. Proffit: Not, not much. There's a few people that still with a farm' n cattle together earn a good bit of money. The Green's down in the lower end. I don't know, there may be a few others. Farming wouldn't account for too much through here now. Interviewer: Just kind of, you grow what vegetables you need for your own use? Mr. Proffit: Yeah. Interviewer: Did you have a pretty good year this year? Mr. Proffit: Well fair, I didn't have as much yeild as I like to have but everything was good, I mean, all done very well, just didn't turn off too much. Interviewer: Yeah- I didn't get much art of my garden this year so I was wondering? Interviewer: This is off the subject a little but do you know what nationalities the people were that first came? M~Proffit: Pretty well. I'd say that practical all of them, the first one's English, course its' a mixture after all. We got in t .h e country now, the origial, we got English, Welsh, Irish, Scotish, a trace of Belgian, some Danish, German, and Dutch. I don't know of anything else. Practically all of us have got a bit of all of it. Now the Byrans is Danish. Morgan Bryan was born in Denmark and ·.his wife was Dutch. She was ·born somewhere in the Netherlands I think. Interviewer: Holland probably. Mr. Pro ff it: Then her family moved to France and she was raised there. ~h'" y ~ me~· in P;;± i ad~lphia . .. , Th~- Prof.fit~ \<!a~ En,giish. - There Is a ·nifxfore ·a f 'possibly Irish and certainly Scotish in the family. The Lewis'· was Welsh and the Joneses, course we don't have any Joneses now in the community that I know of, used to be some, And there's well been another family of two of Welsh connections. The �15 Greens and certain others were Scottish . The ijoleman's English but their names supposed to it ' s called- a Viking settlement in England. in time. But about all the families here was than the others. After a while anything runs Davis ' was Welsh, I overlooked them. have come from .Danedyher- whatever They mingled with the English people principally English I imagine moreso out, I reckon . Interviewer: Has un-huh- lets see how to word this. Has as far as where people are living now, in the homes that their living in--has Meat Camp gotton any smaller you know people living closer together or do they--is there still a pretty good distance between homes? Mr . Proffit: Well, they is a lot closer than they used to be, course they're more people . P.e say ' s (his uncle) he can remember when there weren't but a half a dozen or so homes on Meat Camp, on the ------ Interviewer: Uh-huh . Are you still able to do a lot of hunting around in this area? Mr. Proffit: Well you could some if there was anything to hunt for . It's pretty cleared out of game now . Course the turn loose deer and bear and so on, but I don't think they allow hunting them yet . The old native games about all gone. Interviewer : Were there any doctors that lived in Mr. Proffit : Uh not that I know of. (addressed to Uncle) Tom Proffit: ~he area? Wllere did Tom Blackburn live, at Todd? Yeah, I think so. Mr. Proffit : I guess he was the closest one, there was one, Sutherland- Stopwell I think. Some at Boone, but I don ' t think we ever had any on Meat Camp . The doctorin here was done mostly by the people in the community without a license . Now Granny Winebarger was a Doctor of sorts . Course she was mainly a midwife, but she treated people for what they had any knowledge of. Interviewer: They depended on a lot on the midwifes for a lot of the doctoring, didn ' tthey? I guess deliverying babies but a lot of general medicine stuff too. Mr. Proffit : Yeah, they treated fevers and ever so many things like that . Practically anything except most serious things. I don't suppose they tried to set bones or anything like that . But they had a pretty good knowledge of most of the general ailments . Now this Granny Winebarger I mentioned was Jacobs ' wife . The one that first settled here. Sne had a doctor book . Had, I suppose , a description of simptons and so on, what to use to treat different things. A lot of it was superstition. Granny Proffit was a midwife too, I don ' t knm.r if she went in for any other kind of doctoring or not . Aunt Evan Moretz was , I believe she had a pretty good knowledge of various things. Interviewer : Did they use a lot of they used a lot of herbs I guess, didn't they? Mr. Proffit : Oh practically all, even the doctors did back at that time . �16 Interviewer: Do they still grow many of those types of herbs or do they grow wild? Mr. Proffit: They mostly grow wild, I don't know wheather anybody cultivates any of them or not. You can still find some of them in the woods places. Interviewer: Do you remember who some of the first teachers were in this area? Mr. Proffit: Well I don't know, about a long way back Epheran Miller was a teacher. Interviewer: Is this the same one that was in the Civil war? Mr. Proffit: No that a different one, his nephew. That would of been at a later time after the war. Probabably a good many years after. I can't give you the names of any before then, now. I don't think of any. Interviewer: Were most of the teachers that came into this area, really at ·any time were they, were many of them from this area originally? Mr. Proffit: Well, I suppose they all would've been, early. Ephan w-s raised I guess in there-- Riddles Fork section, which you would say next door at least. Well he lived on Meat Camp too, I forgot about after he married he lived in the Woodring hollar. So I guess he probably did live here when he was teaching here. Course I can remember on a few would have been teaching, but that's on ahead of where you wanted I guess. Interviewer~ ·: ~ot, 1 well ( '.Delci>;n-is- ) , Yeah . . Mr. Proffit: Glayds Moretz was my first teacher. Eleanor Moretz was a teacher, she lived-uh-well in the house where the Barlow boy lives now. Owen .Winebarger was the first one I can remember I guess. I don't even know back behind them. Burt Davis was a teacher but he lived down at Riddles Fork, too or the other side. Interviewer : How many -uh- months when the schools, like the first schools- were Proffits Grove church is now- how many months of the year did they go? Mr. Proffit: I think that was a three months school. Interviewer: You know what year that it was torn down? Mr. Proffit: No do you know? (addressed to Uncle) Torn Proffit: What? Mr. Proffit: The old school house, when was it tore down? Torn Proffit: I don't know, the main old one I don't know. Mr. Proffit: Now they used it for a church building a long time after they quit using it for a school. Torn Proffit: Now when I went to school the main old school that had been there, �17 it was already tore down. That's been about 80 years ago cause I'm 85 and a little over and that ' s first school I ever went to when Gutter(?) Moretz was the teacher . Mr. Proffit: Now he lived on Big Hill. Interviewer : He traveled over here? Mr . Proffit: to Unclel Yeah, I suppose he did . Tom Proffit: I guess he did. I guess he went home didn't he? (addressed Mr . Proffit: At that time they didn't mind 6 or 8 miles so much . been a pretty good walk, maybe more than that. He lived Course it had --- END OF SIDE 11, TAPE 1 . Tom Proffit: It was usaally out about Christmas. Mr . Proffit: Well it would have been September probably when it started. Interviewer: Did it interfer very much with things you know like the farming end-of what the students had to do at home? Mr. Proffit: No I wouldn't think so, They probably would have had the work pretty well done up by that time. Of course the children that was old enough to do much worked with it and kept up if there was anything to do anyway. Interviewer : know? What was the average number of students that went up there do you Mr . Proffit : Do you know how many went about? (Question addressed to his Uncle) Tom Proffit: No it was about full, but I don ' t know if they ever kept talley or not, how many went . Interviewer: Who paid the teachers? Mr . Proffit: How did they handle the paying then? Tom Proffit : I reckon they did, county one, I don't know which . Did the state pay then or--? Mr . Proffit : County possibly at that time . Of course the earliest one was subscription People just paid so much for their own children. The time he's talking about I guess it was county or state one . Interviewer : Did teachers back then did they ever like talk to the parents of the students very much? You know like they've got the PTA today? Mr. Proffit: No . No I don ' t think so . Interviewer: Un-huh. �18 Mr. Proffit : How it was, was if the parents didn't like something they'd go down and jump on the teacher . But as far as any discussion now what you mean is wherehow they are doing in school and all that, I doubt of there was much of that. Tom Proffit : No. Mr. Proffit : Have you got any other questions? Interviewer: You mentioned a- one fellow around that was from Meat ·camp that had been involved in politics back around the civil war . Mr. Proffit : Yeah, That was before . It was in the early 1800 ' s . Interviewer: Was there anybody after that? Mr. Proffit: 1 don ' t know of anybody office above the county level or not. officers but I don ' t remember anybody Now Spencer Blackburn was raised over but I don't think he lived over there Interviewer: on Meat CAmp that ever served in any political Of course we ' ve had commissariers and local else that went to legislature to congress . here on the Green Place. He was in Congress the time he was in congress . Is that state congress? Mr. Proffit: No. He was national, but he was raised over close above that place I told you about that was sold off to the developers, the Edmund Blackburn place. I don't know how long he served, it was in I think, in the 1890's wouldn ' t it when he was in. Tom Proffit : Probably was. Mr . Proffit : I don't know how long he served he died in office. But he was a young man yet when he died so he might not have served more than two or three terms . Interviewer: As far as Meat CAmp conununity do you-~Has there ever been a time when it was really ever considered as a community? Mr . Proffit : Well of course in the earlier times it wouldn't have been . I ' d say the main development started from about 1835 along there. The Ragan ' s family could have lived on Meat Camp or it could have been a long ways on either side and still have been on there property. I don't know where there orginial home was and the Greens didn ' t live here to latter, I mean, on what we call Meat Camp now, it was on further down . I expect Joe Miller might have been the first one to live right on--in the valley here . Interviewer : Say like about 1835 would they have been having conununity meetings and that sort of things? Mr . Proffit : No, that would have been a little to early for that . It was-He lived here then . Billy Miller on the head of the creek 2 miles apart. And Levi Wilson- 3 or 4 families . They probably wouldn ' t have been much between them at that time. �19 Interviewer: Was it refered to as ~eat Camp at that time? Mr. Proffit: Yeah. According to the old tales that we use--the name comes from back when people from below the mountains would come up and hunt. They'd kill deer and bear and so on, skin it out. And they had a place where they took the meat and stored it to they went back. That's what give it the name. There's two or three places that's been pointed out as the camp. Of course that's just theory but chances are they are all right, there might have been a camp maybe on the lower end and one on the upper end too. There's supposed to be one down in the field I reckon you would call it or use to be a field, belongs to the Greens now. Down the creek below Meat Camp service station in there. Some claims there was one on the land, I guess Gene Moretz owns now. And theres a possibility that there was. They could have stored one time at one place and the other at the other place. Wouldn't necessarily have to be any conflict in it. Tom Proffit: Well the camp burnt. That's what give it the name Meat Camp I think. Interview.er: Has there ever been any conflict between any of the families that have lived in this community? Proffit: No, nothing more than just ordinary spats. No feuds or anything like that. Actually the most of what trouble thats been here has been between people that has moved in from somewhere else,' all the killing that I know of has been between people that use to live somewhere else and moved in here. Of course sometimes there'd be fights and people maybe be mad . for a few days. But in general I imagine its been about as peaceable as any community amoung the originial settlers. ~r. Pause in tape -"') Interviewer: Do you have any more questions? 0 Interviewer: Not that I can think of. J Interviewer: I think we've pretty well covered everythin?. Mr. Proffit: Are you interested in mills and blacksmiths shops? Interviewer: Sure Anythings that's----Yeah. Mr. Proffit: Well of course the Proffit mill I think was the first one on Meat CAmp. I don't know when it was built but I'd say brobably by 1850 or maybe a little before. Jacob Winebarger's very likely was the next. I don't know the date. Thats been argued at different time but very likely in the 1860's. I think Will said about about 1873 I think he's a little late oa it I believe it was a little eearlier than that. I can't give you the dates now or even the order exactly but Poula(?) Moretz had a rollar mill in the bottom where Clint Miller lives now. Thatwas a lot later through. There was one up at the Lester Wilcox place. I think the old wheel may be there yet, I don't remember now. The building is partly there at least. I think the last time I noticed it the water wheel was there but it may be gone. I wouldn't say. And there was one up above where Dean Proffit lives. �20 Lark run it for years, Lark Miller, and--Did Willet have a mill there before Lark did? Tom Proffit : I don't know, probably did have. Mr . Proffit : He had one somewhere in there . Gene Moretz had one on up above his house. I think its still there water wheel and building at least or was a few years ago . I don't remember if there's anymore or not . Jacob Winebarger had a blacksmith shop back early, and latter Will Winebarger had one . I believe the old building is there yet . Noah Winebarger had one between the road and the creek just across from the Harvey Trivette house. Hosea Miller had a shop up upon the mountain a little . Interviewer : Do blacksmiths work on wagons as well as on the horses? Mr. Pro f fit : Yeah . Interviewer: They were kinda like the early auto mechanics I guess. Mr . Proffit : Yeah it was pretty good business putting tires on wagons wheels . They used Iron tires on them. They'd weld the tires and put them on the wheels and they made other metal pieces that had to be used on wagons . They fired plows and things like that. Interviewer: Did they do any tanning or anything the blacksmiths, or would they let someone else? Mr. Proffit : I don't think so. That would have been-or might be somebody that could about everything might have probably-- I don't think it was connected with the blacksmith work. Show us an Iron . Mr. Proffit : Ther ' s an iron Noah Winebarger put a handle in . broke off he made that one . The handle got Interviewer : Do they set this in coals or something set this in and get it hot? Mr. Pro f fit: I don't know how it was done . Interviewer: You would think he bought it like this . Mr. Proffit: Welded without a torch at that time. Interviewer : They welded this without any torch that's amazing . But he welded the handle in it . Mr . Pro f fit: They heated the two pieces of metal red hot and put borers on that piece that was welded to it and hammered it together. Interviewer: Uh-huh. �21 Interviewer: I don't think I'd like that job. shows us a device used to make shoes Mr. Proffit: Put the shoe on there and hanuner it. Interviewer: Did they--! read somewhere that use to---that they use to didn't make shoes for right and · left feet they made so that they could fit on either foot. Mr. Proffit: Laura Proffit: there too? I've heard that, I don't know whether it's right or not. There use to be one size bigger than that like that. Mr. Proffit: That's the only one that's here. Tom Proff i t: Is it under I thought there was two or three in that outfit. Mr. Proffit: Peopl~ made there oym shoes back then too. for others. Roby Bryan could make shoes. Interviewer: Few people made them Where they just all leather is that how they'd make them, the material? Mr. Prof f it: I think so. Yeah. like that for soles, then. END OF INTERVIEW , . I don't suppose they had any rubber or anything MIDDLE OF SIDE 1. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Skelton, Joseph Proffit, Deloris Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Proffit, Robert Interview Date 10/3/1980 Number of pages 21 pages Date digitized 9/24/2014 File size 14.7MB Checksum alphanumeric code d5ab4a2ab3eac00fce47d679659e8c62 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape490-1_RobertProffit_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Proffit [October 3, 1980] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skelton, Joseph Proffit, Deloris Proffit, Robert Subject The topic of the resource Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History Mountain life--North Carolina--Ashe County--History Mountain life--North Carolina--Wilkes County--History Mountain life--North Carolina--Avery County--History Description An account of the resource Robert Proffit talks about Meat Camp's early history from the first settler John Green in 1788. Over the next few decades, people began to trickle in to Western North Carolina. He talks about the first churches in the area: Hopewell Methodist Church and Meat Camp Church. He also describes the civil war, how many members of the community enlisted with the confederate army, but after the war there wasn't much difference in Meat Camp. Proffit explains Meat Camp well with this statement: "there was never anything here to begin with except just natural things." Ashe County Avery County Big Hill blacksmith Boone David Miller Early Settlers H&T Chair herbs herbs and roots Hopewell Methodist Church John Green Meat Camp Meat Camp Church Proffit's Grove Church Riddles Fork Robert Proffit roots Spencer Blackburn tobacco warehouse Watauga County N.C. Wilkes County https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/6fea2764da0a51cffc6bbb54b3ddd5f3.pdf e066c8695761f7b985d295249ebb8550 PDF Text Text Interview with Ruth South on October 15 ,".:. 1980, by Wade Hyder and Deloris Proffit. It was preformed at her house. Interviewer: With Ruth South from Meat Camp. Interviewer: I like find out something about the general history, you know, about weaving in the mountians, or about how you learned how to weave? Mrs. South: The way I started was-- I was working on the NYA now you know that was the national youth adminisration under President Roosevelt. That's back when there was no jobs, and not very many people went to school. It was only the---mostly the rich people and the ones that could worked t heir way through and the.re was not working places for everybody to go like there are now. And a --- so I was sixteen you had to be sixteen to get a job so I started working on the NYA and you worked two weeks and you stayed home two weeks. And you worked nine hours a week. Nine hours that would be eighteen--Did you turn the stove off? (directed toward her son) See we worked-Mike South: That's on tape Mamrna. Ruth South: And I think --anyway I made eighteen dollars that's the way it was. It was nine dollars a week instead of nine hours. We made eighteen dollars for two weeks. And then I stayed fiome so another girl could work. And she did the same job that I did whicn was when I first out I was. a time keeper and they had the--they had three, four different places. They had the college cafeteria where they canned the food that the boys grew and the girls canned it. And they had Green Heights they called it. That was the house belongs to -- belongs to Mr. Hodges up on Green Heights there in Boon~. That's where they made quilts. The girls went in and made quilts and they let the poor people have them for just the material cost, which was very little. And then out on the Bristol road a little ways, which we didn't go out there, they had another set up there. They made mattresses for people, you know, to go beds. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: They made handmade mattress's? They made hand made mattresses. Would that have been like down or---- Mrs. South: Cotton, they used cotton in it. Now I was out there a time or two and the girls would get up on that and just tromp, tromp~ tromp to get it padded down because they were hard now. Interviewer: Where did you say that was at? Mrs. South: That was out on the Bristol road about where Bue Hodge has his body shop. Right about there somewhere. And then they had of course the Watauga Handcraft center there where you did your weaving which was somehow connected enough with the state until they allowed her to have two girls working there. And I don't remember one of the girls was Irene Coffey, and I don't remember the other one. �2 Interviewer: Mrs. South: Who was running Watauga Industries? Elizabeth Lord, because she started it in 1938. Intervie~er: 1938 she started it? were 16 when you went to work? Mrs. South: Interviewer: So what would this have been when you 1940. 1940, oh well i'm not very ~ood at math. Mrs. South: Yeah, that was in 1940, because that was the year of the flood, year of the flood was the first year I worked there. Was that 40 or 41? Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: You hear of the forty flood. You haven't read about that? Oh, I've heard about all my life, I don't think I've ever read. Mrs. South: Yeah it was forty, 1940 I think. Well we worked that way awhile I had to do mine in walking I didn'~ _ have a car to drive. So I would go from Green Heights that's up above where Smitheys store is up on that hill. And I would walk down and go down by the crafts shop first and I'd get the girls time and take it down and it was very interesting to me and I'd look around. And then I'd go by the college cafeteria where the girls were warki~ g and I learned to meet a lot of people that way. And then I'd go back to Headquarters where I started. Well I learned that I had some time extra and if I went the other way around I could spend more time in that craft shop. So I started then down college street and came down by the cafeteria first and did that real quick. And then I went up Hardin Street up to the craft shop and I'd stay there till almost 4:30. And I liked the lady Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Getting there about when? Beg your pardon. Gettin~---getting there about when? Mrs. South: I'd stay there till about 4:30, just in time for me to get up to headquarters at 4:30, and get the time in. So. I learned to like the lady and she did me. And the place soon -- I mean it all soon fell through you know the money gave out. And there was no more of it-- no more of it anywhere. Interviewer: The whole NYA? Mrs. South: The whole NYA and the WPA now that was another thing that was going on at the same time was for older men. Because my father worked some on that and helped build some of the looms there in the craft shop. Interviewer: Oh really. �• I 3 Mrs. South: Well when the money gave out, natually it fell through. But times had picked up a little till people could get a few jobs. So I was going then in the dime store to put in an application for a job . When I meet up with this lady . And you know when it closed dovm I just didn't go back . So she asked me what I was going to do and I told her . And she said would you like to work for me at the same price that you ' re getting. And I said yes I would . And so I worked but it was steady work--it was all the time you know, not just two weeks . But they soon grew and they begin pating me more money, never alot of money but I was making instead of 9 dollars a week when I finally quit there I was making something like 75 dollars . Interviewer: What kind of a place was it then? a craft shop? Was it a weaving school or Mrs. South: Yes, yes it was a non-profit organization where she had a gift shop there where she tried to sell things for the people that made them . And you know, Interviewer: Like consignment work. Mrs . South: Like consignment most of it was on consignment. And when she sold something she was so tickled to write the person a check for that . And it grew to be a good money making place . I mean a place for-- to a benefit the community, you know, and not just for one person. That was the intention of the plac~ was to help all the people to make a little more income . Interviewer: Who bought most of the stuff? What was it people from the _ university or were there lots of people from outside the area? Mrs . South : In later years it wa-. But at first they were people up north, they called them the good Lutherans because they were the people that had given Miss Jeffcoate the money to buy the lot there. Interviewer: Miss Jeffcoate. She proceeded Elizabeth Lord? Mrs . South : No-- --UH-huh Yeah she did . And she----- she had paralysis and she never did weave much she was never married but she raised two daughters from uh-- they were Townsends and they were ·from the Lutheran church over in-What was the name of the place daddy? Austin South: Mrs. South : Interviewer : Valle Gruis . Yeah. Valle Gruis . Oh . Mrs. South: And she educated both those girls, Lois and Annie Alice and they're both school teachers now . Interviewer: idea? What was her interest in starting the place? Do you have any �4 Mrs . South : Just to help somebody . She just -- she wanted to do pomething to help . She herself had been a school teacher and then she had a stroke and it paralized let's see her left side . And then of course she got retirement you see and had money coming in to live on . There was no social security I ' m sure I doubt if she had enough to live on . She had a home, and then she just wanted to help somebody else . Interviewer: So it kinda started as a weaving school and then the whole NYA thing helped to ~~~~- Mrs . South: Yes it started first as just connnunity people coming in to weave and they would buy the thread . Miss Lord would, and just let the peopl~ . pay and that's the way it went on the NYA . There was never no charge for anybody weaving there . I don't know how much you paid. I don ' t know how much they charge now. Interviewer: Yeah, its still real good . Mr . Carlson's a wonderful man I think. Mrs . South : Yeah I think so . He doesn't need a great deal of money out of it either and I think he's trying to keep it a whole lot like ~~~~~- Interviewer : He still- --he lets--Our weaving teacher is Susan Sharp and he lets her, you know, he just wants the looms being used so he lets her give classes there. And try to have as many students as she can, to fill those 12 or 13 looms how ever many they are. Mrs. South : Interviewer: Mrs . South: Well that's good they should be in use . Well they are they are all in use ri~ht now. Well that's good. Interviewer : He doesn't take any kind of cut for the fee she gets for the classes. Re just lets her use the looms, So that traditon is still going . Mrs . South: Well that's good. They are not his anyway, they are like all other school equipment like these mobile buildings, you know, mobile units that they took to the school house, and they don't belong to any one individual you know, it's like the board of education or however they-- it's like any of the public schools . Interviewer: Yeah I see . Mrs . South: Those looms and that building now is the same thing because the state paid so much of Miss Lords salary 1/4 of it and the 3/4 she made in the shop. And they paid 1/4 of mine after I got up and could do more and could help out more . Interviewer: I see . So back in the forties and the state was helping to keep that place going so that for the craft purpose so that weaving could be preserved or? �.. 5 Mrs. South: Yes, and still to help the people like there's a lot of people now--now like Stella Barnes over here-- he (Austin South) was just at her house and delivered her some saugasge. She used to work as a~--- in the dormitory at the college. Then later her husband got sick, she needed to be at home with him and she wanted to learn how to weave. So she could go there and learn and just pay for her--- the material she made. And I don't know she ah-- shes a real young lady now--- she's past 70 I'm sure, but its amazing what she weaves. Interviewer: Un-Huh. She does beautiful things. Mrs. South: Yeah she does. And she goes to the fair. She goes to the Southern Living Show. She belongs to the Southern Highland Guild, and she goes there and now that her husband's gone she's still, you know, able to help herself. Interviewer: So you started working with Miss LOrd then--- then you learned how to weave or? Mrs. South: Oh yes, yes. That was the first thing I did was learn how to weave so I could help the other weavers. The new ones that came in. And what they did we tried to keep all the looms busy all the time and ah-- the policy was you must come enough consective days to finish the project that you were working on. Like she would not let you start a covelet if you didn't plan to come on and finish that cause that takes several days. But people were very good to come and finish , but a lot of the times they wouldn't come back to get their things. Interviewer: Just leave them for the shop to sell? Mrs. South: Un-huh. And of course Miss Lord never did do that. We always we had little scales and we weighted and some of the threads was only 3 cents an ounce I remember and a guest towel might be 6 cent s. They would be a little more charged for the pattern that went in it than the plain, you know ~ And a guest towel would be 6 cents. Of course that's not today I'll tell yo u. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Oh boy. Linen in 17 dollars a pound now. Whew----- Yeah Are you doing Linen? No I haven't tried it yet. I tried wool today for the _first time. Mrs. South: You need to come back and finish that piece you worked on down there. Cause I've never touched it. Interviewer: Mrs. South: came out. Interviewer: Mrs. South: I'd be glad to. I uncovered it here sometime back to show to Dr. Mc Gallion that Have you much time to do weaving lately? I've made what 2 covelets since I got out of camp Daddy? And right �6 now this past week I've been working on some curtains like this for our daughter that's moving into a new house, only they go all the way down, the lace goes all the way down. Interviewer: That's real pretty. Mrs. South: And I'm doing that of linen. But I had some and then mamma went in and got me a pound from Mr. Carlson the other day. So there's (points to bedspread) one bedspead I've been working on at night. And of course you saw the ones that they had up at the college didn't you. Interviewer: You had lots of pretty things there. Mrs. South: Well now my neice is going to have an exhibit. Its going up in December. I don't think it'll be open to the public until Janurary. But it'll run for a month I think. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Where is this at? In the same building. Farthing. Un-huh. I see. So your neice is a weaver too. Mrs. South: Un- huh. Toni carlton you may know her. Do you know her? She graduates what was it last spring. And she's going to have ~ a bed there that she made. She made her own loom. And then of course she's does modern weaving. Interviewer: And you do the traditional? Mrs. South: Un-huh. And she'll have some modern things there that's she has made. So it'll probably be interesting for you to go there and see that. Interviewer: Yeah, I'd like to see that. They--How many looms did they have when you started down there with Watauga industries? Mrs. South: Ithink about 12. I couldn't say that,you know, for an exact figure but I believe it was twelve. Interviewer: Well just general. And what kind of fibers did you work with then? Mrs. South: Linen. We used a lot of linen then. I don't think they use quite as much linen now. And of course we used a lot of home spun wool. Now that blue covelet that you saw up at the Farthering was home spun wool. And a lot of the women in the community made covelets. The material was 2 dollars a pound. It took 3 pounds of material to make one covelet and the fringe. Now that didn't count the little extra tabby that goes through, you know, between your pattern but now I don't know if you can get that home spun wool dyed like we got it. Now you might be able to get it. No~ I think over at Mouth of Wilson �7 they have it undyed tha t you can dye yours e lf. Interviewer: Dorothy Townsend has some that, you know, she spuned as used those natural dyes on them. But they are all--- I keep looking but the scanes are, you know, so small that you could make somehting but you could go to a lot of trouble. Mrs. South: Yeah a lady brought me up some samples. I guess they must have been 12 or 15 different colors beautiful colors that she had dyed. Interviewer: So you've worked with homespun wool7 Mrs. South: Yes I've worked with it, I've woven with it. I spun some one time. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: I've never dyed it. Did you? Un-huh. Did you like doing that? Did I like to? Do you like spinning? Mrs. South: I loved that. I was just about 16 through. And my grandmother West and I spun enough--- Well actually a lady in that community where I lived then helped me spin it and then my grandmother dyed it and knitted me a pair of gloves and each finger was a different color. Interviewer: Mrs. South: that. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Oh. Cause you get a lot of di f ferent colors or we did when she dyed Depending on how many times you dip it? Dip in the dye, yeah. Interviewer: You were saying that went from up above Smitheys around to your job. Is that where you--- You grew up in Boone? In tgown~~~ Mrs. South: Interviewer: Well up on Deck Hill. You know where that is? No. Mrs. South: You go out by where the Unemployment of fice is now. are building the new shopping center. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Where they Yeah all right. Yeah all right. You go out that way and instead of going right up �8 Winkler creek you go strignt up the hill . Interviewer : Mrs. South: Interviewer: 0 . K. I know where Deck Hill is. And a lot of times I walked all the way from home . Did you go to at-- --? Mrs. South : I went to school at cool springs through the seventh grade and then I went to the eight at Blowing Rock. We were nearer Blowing ,.Rock schoo~ than we were Boone at that time . Interviewer: So you went to High School at Blowing Rock? Mrs . South : Un- huh, Then I went to night school at Boone after I started working for Miss Lord. You know, they had night school back during the war. When people had to work during the day . Interviewer : Austin South: Interviewer: I see . What about Berea? What were you studying at night school? Mrs. South : I took a business course . I never used it to much, I think I've gotton a lot of good out of the math that I took and of the writing . But the snorthand and typing I've never done much with that . And then each year I would goto school either over at Pendelum or Berea one. I was in Berea the year I got engaged to him. And lets see how long was I there, 3 weeks . Austin South: 3 weeks . Mrs . South: And I always enjoyed the places cause I always, you know, got to make things . Interviewer : You studied weaving at both Pendelun and Berea? Mrs . South: Yes un- huh. I did some wood work at Berea . I did a little chest. and then at Pendelum I did some Pewter work. I made some pewter candle sticks . Interviewer : Mrs . South: Oh . But mostly it was weaving. Interviewer : What was Pendulum like then in the sense of people who were .going there to learn crafts . I said just because its so expensive now. Mrs. South : It was a lot like it was at the craft shop over here. It was a lot the same way because they were helping their community people too . I think its very expensive now . And of course you stay there now and of course we �9 stayed there. They had rooms like dormitories and it didn't cost very much for us to stay for 2 or 3 weeks. We'd go f rom 2 or maybe 3 weeks when--like when it was a dull time at the craft shop over here. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. South: And she would take me with her and I really enjoyed it. it was about .the only place I really got to go. Interviewer: Caus e How long did you work at the craft shop? lfrs. South: I worked 18 · year with her and then she got sick. What year was it daddy about 58 I believe. She got sick she had cancer and had an operation but she still wanted to go back and work part time so I went .and tried to pitch in for her until she got able to go back. But really she never did get able to go back. So when she passed away in 61, then the place was up. Miss Jef fcoate was still living and she wanted me to take it and run it. But I was trying to, you know, help educate our children and help him out a little. So I needed to ma~e more money--- I needed a way tnat I knew I could have some money every month. Instead of, you know, Interviewer: Mrs. South: got it. Interviewer: The risk. The risk of making it myself there. How long has she been gone? So that's when Mrs. Carlson Did she pass away? Mrs. South: I heard them talking up at the camp this summer when she passed away. Do you remember daddy? Austin South: No I don't. Mrs. South: It was about 65. It was not to long after Miss Lord passed away I think around 65. I'm sure you wouldn't want to ask ~r. Carlson. But I think it wa s around then. Interviewer: Mrs. South: And Mr. Carlson's had it ever since Un- huh, He's kept it. Interviewer: Tha t's great. know if you know her? Mrs. South: Interviewer: t~en? :.~o, That's great. Sandy his grand-daughter--I don't but mamma does. She's real interested, a real good weaver too. She's real good. Mrs. South: Mama likes her. She went over to teach her to tie fringe and she likes her. She said she was nice. Mr. Carlson's been real nice to my mother to take her weaving and sell it. And he sells a lot f or her. �10 Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Whats her name? Her name is Nellie Carlton. 0. K. I've meet her too. Mrs. South: Now what about this movie that 's coming up this Friday night. afi- What's---The American Herion-- How you say that I can't---- - Interviewer: Mrs. South: see that. Interviewer: Herion Un-huh. That's going to be shown this Friday night and you should What's that about? Mrs. South: It's about the well not only mountain women but she a ---Stella Stevens made it and she made a lot of pictures of a weaving here. Interviewer: Oh really. Mrs. South: And other things. And then also it has other people, you know, from Hew York and California and all its a way of life of a lot of people from a lot of places. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Austin South: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Yeah, American Beroion. So a--- And it will be shown in the Greer. Did I say the Greer? The Greer Autotorian. Autototian on Friday night beginning at 9:00. Uh--That would be nice to see. Yeah you should see that. I hope she's a ---- Is your mother in it? Mrs. South: Yes my mother's in it and Toni is in it. And I believe Stella Barnes over here is in it and Kathren Smith the Art teacher that was at the college for so long. She'll be in it. And I really don't know there's some other people from up on Meat Camp in it too, but I'm sure. Do you know anything about it Deloris? Deloris: No. Interviewer: When did you get your own loom? Mrs. South: When I got my own loom was a When did we go-- when did I go to Bevard with you Austin? And we married in 45 in August and was it that spring? �11 Austin South : Yeah . Mrs . South : Of suprise for me. Interviewer: 4~ . That Miss Lord had my father make me a loom. It was a Oh how nice. Mrs . South: But and but she - -- he was a person that he- - - he did real good work didn't he daddy? But he was out a working all the time and he never thought and I never thought really how important it would be for me to have a loom of my own. Because certainly I could never go out and buy the looms at the price they are . But she had him make me one . And that was the big one that was right behind the one that you worked on. Now he helped make that one that you worked on . Interviewer : That was neat . And so did you start selling things in the shop? Or did you first start marketing? Mrs . South : Yeah , right along then . She had me put-- . I said what should I put on my loom and of course she had me do it up, you know, she said I think it would be nice to put on a 18 inch warp and do runners and towels . I could do runners and towels and placemats and napkins all on that same width . Interviewer: Width . Mrs . South: And so I moved that loom around . I had it up at his house in the bedroom and he later moved it upstairs for me and then when we moved into this house we had it back in that room over there . And then eventually we moved it down in the garage and that ' s where it stayed. But I use to use-weave off and I ' d go up there to put my warps on . Now he made me a thing here I have the whole apparatus to do my own warping here. Interviewer : Oh he did, and he made that, the warper? Mrs. South : He made that for me, uh-huh, but I used to have to carry it up there . And I ' d weave 3 110 yards warps every year. Interviewer : Boy, that ' s a lot of weaving Three 110 yard warps . were still working with the 18 inch? And you Mrs . South : No, no now after I did this one 18 inch warp, and then she said You know, I think you could make the most money on a 36 inch warp on your loom and make aprons . I could make skirts, and I could make runners to with hemming the ends of fringing the ends and hemming the sides . And theres still many things you can do on one loom . But she said the material for the aprons would-- would be less expensive than the linen which I was using on the 18 inch loom. Interviewer : Right . Mrs . South: And I don ' t know . Austin ' s mother she use to help me hem the strings and help me watch the children . We had 3 little ones and he was away working . And she said I know you must have everybody in the United States an �12 apron now. And I'm sure she felt like it cause I made a lot didn't I Austin? Austin South: Interviewer: Yeah. What did you use for the apron? What kind of material? Mrs. South: We used what they called a sea island mercerized which last almost as long as linen but ah it was just a highly mercerized cotton. Interviewer: What does that mean? What does Mercerized mean? Mrs. South: Mercertized that means that it is spun and spun and spun more times adn twisted tighter. Interviewer: I see into a tougher fiber. Mrs. South: And some of it really has a shine ta it. Like its been polished or dipped in dye or something, out its only by the spinning of it. Interviewer : Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: I see. That makes it. What does worsted mean on wool? Worsted, I think you 've got me there. I'm not quite sure. It might just be something about the lanolin or something. Mrs. South: It is and its something about the twist of it I'm sure. the homespun ah-- we know what that was. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Explain that process. Now How would-- How would somebody get that? Do homespun wool? Yeah. Mrs. South: 0. K. You took the wool, the raw wool which ah-- Mr. Hodgeson up here above you all used to buy it they said from the people and ah--then he'd sell it to companies, you know, where they made it . You take the raw wool, you wash it first . Then you card it, card it first . You get all the twigs and anything, the spots anything that's in it out. And with the cards you make it into a little role. And then you pack those roles up. I've seen my grandmother West have a pack as high as this here. And they'll lie right together you see but it won't mash together. But th~y would never fall over. And then she'd get her spinning wheel up by it. And you take one of those roles which was about 12 inches long and you start with your spinning wheel and then as you spin you take another one and it catches right into the end of this one as this is twisting around it'll catch into the one that you have in your hand. And that's the way they do the homespun. Now the worsted- they- I don't know what. They must do something with a machine with that. �13 Interviewer: It's not that important I'm sure I could look it up. I just saw it on a packet of thread . I just started working on, and I wandered what it meant. Mrs . South : Yeah, I think that's something that they are doing with a machine to it the worsted . Interviewer: Mrs . South: I see. Oh I love END OF SIDE 1. Uh- What fibers do you like to use most now? �14 SIDE 11 Mrs. South: I've never tried to dye any, its easier to buy it. Interviewer: Yeah. Also since you're such a good weaver why spend your time doing something like that. Ah---I'm just real vauge on this but I know you had a real honor in this last year with one of your pieces, didn't you get some kind of a recognition? Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer : Yes. What was that? Let me show it to you. What was the award? I'll show you. To modest to say? Mrs. South~ A work of excellence; which I was really pleased with that as much as the money that was in it. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Carolina Designer Craftsman award for a work of Excellence. Now they only gave one for the whole state. Oh really, that's great. Un-huh. I was really tickled with it. When did you get that? In April of this year. Well that's great. Mrs. South: I look terrible there. ( She showed us a book with her picture and the award winning covelet in it.) So look at the covelet and not me. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Oh, that's pretty. That's the picture they made of it that night. Did you do the lace too? No, my mother tied the lace, I can't take credit for that. Do you know how to do lace? I know how and I have a rack that my father made me before he �15 died, and I've got some dark brown yarn that I 'm going to learn on. I think if I, you know, do some soil of something or, you know, you can wear it out trying to learn. I'm going to try to do it myself,because I do want to learn to before, you Rnow, while she's still living. But she does tie pretty fringe. Interviewer : Mrs. South: Interviewer: really nice. What's this pu°blication? That's the whole show ~ 42th annual North Carolina Art and Artists expedition. That's Mrs. South: Yes, I 'd had an invitation, I guess they got my name through the guild probably. I have belonged to the guild since in a----I believe---in probably the middle forties. Interviewer: The southern highland? Mrs. South: Un-huh. I 've got an invitation every year. did get around to getting anything in . Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer : Mrs. South: Interviewer: But I just never Is this the first year you've ever submitted? That's the first time. That's the first time you submitted? Yes it was. Oh boy, you must just ------ Mrs. South: And ah--- so when I went up to get the award this lady came up to me and she------ of course you feel out a blank, you know, if you want the gallery to sell it or if you don't want it sold. You put a not for sell on it. So this lady ran up to me as I went down the steps and she said now I want to buy that covelet, and of course I was ' all shook up anyway and I said I don't know about that, it 's here at the gallery now and I said they're supposed to sell it, you know, and they 've got there commission and she said well that's all right I 'm with the gallery. So I want it and she did. The covelet was sold already before I got over there. But then here is her letter even. I saved it . Interviewer : Mrs. South: Interviewer : Miss Lord? The Whigrose pattern? Un-huh. Is that the one ------~ Did you learn that e~~ly on with Mrs . South: Yes, we did a whig rose. It was not exactly like mine. If you ~ notice the blue one that was hanging up there, was one that I did at the craft shop in 19.40, or probably 41. And it was a little smaller design than the one �16 I made here. Interviewer: Someone was telling me, I can't remember who it was~ how Ruth South made her whig rose . You round out your whig rose a little bit more or something you did yourself to the pattern . Mrs . South: Yes. Mine's different from Mr. Godwins. Now they say the old ones were like his. They were kindly long shaped. But the only covelets I've ever seen, and we had one that was about a hundred year old there at the craft shop, made in two colors. And it was fairly round. Interviewer: They were really impressed with something you'd done . I don't know if it was in the pattern ah--you know, the treadling · ? Mrs. South: Yeah, the treadling now that little loom that was setting there. I made that pattern that was on that. Now it's just like this only its a smaller I just took out threads now and then and made it smaller . Interviewer: With a-----Did you learn most of the traditional patterns themselves, like the whig rose and honeysuckle like those at Watauga handcrafts? Mrs . South: Yes, yes. ~ow I have books with all the patterns in it. Mary Hardin down at Lily mills, I've bought so much thread, gave one by Margaret Graham, I believe, one of the better books with all the patterns in it . But you know I've never used one of them. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Oh really. I just stick to the old ones. What are your favorite patterns? }!rs. South: Oh my favorite one is the whig rose. And of course sweet brair beauty is what I had on my apron loom so long. Now that's a pretty pattern too. Interviewer: What did you like for the towels? Mrs . South: The towels I had sweet brair beauty. And ah--- one time I did put two no I had another loom that I put another towel warp on and single snowball on it. Interviewer: I saw some of your placemats with yarn that you did snowball on it at Watauga handcrafts. I was going to get you to go Mrs . South: Yeah that's what I've got on - - pick me up that loom tonight Mike, of all the looms I've got I still go up to the camp and borrow one of their looms . Interviewer: Mrs. South: ~ . _._., ., . ,., _, ' , What do you do at camp Yonahlossee? I teach weaving to the girls? - .. ,. - .; ~·· ·- .. ~- ' ..... ·-1 ( : 1 I' " ,-· , .. ',. ' ~ - i.. ':. ,7 .- ( ~ . J l �17 Interviewer : Is that an all girls camp? Mrs. South : Un-huh, it's an all girls camp . 214 girls . All the time . Interviewer : And this year they had around All of them learn? Mrs. South : Most of them most of them . I usually try to, well I get everyone that wants to at all. Now there ' s a few that brin~ there on horses up and thats about all they want to do. Well ther ' s a few that like to go sailing and swimming. And of course they swim there and they go to Watauga Lake and sail Well they don't do much weaving. Interviewer: Then there's some that get real interested in reading. Mrs . South : Yeah some of them get real interested . Now this year I had a helper that was a camper with me for about six or seven years . And she wove a lot every year, she was very interested in it . And she wants a loom. And by the way her mother taught weaving there as a couseler several years ago and her father is a doctor . Let ' s see he's a I forget if he's a neurosurgeon or a heart doctor . But she wants a loom sometime, when she gets through school . Interviewer : Mrs . South: Interviewer : How many looms do you have up there to work with? Twelve . Twelve . Mrs. South: Un-huh . Seems like twelve is a good number, because twelve is what the Caldwell community college required me to have here . Interviewer: Mrs . South : Interviewer : You taught for Caldwell community college? Un-huh . Did you use the Watauga Handcrafts? Mrs. South : No I didn't use any of there looms, because I have five down here and I had my father had made mamma and me one together and then I borrowed one of her others- was seven and then: ,I got the rest from the camp. Interviewer: How many looms does your mother have? Mrs. South : She has one of her own. A big one like mine my father made for her. Then she has one that Miss Lord gave me for her to use as long as she wasnted it. Interviewer: Mrs . South: Interviewer: Did she get interested in weaving after you did? Yes . That's interesting. �18 Mrs. South: Yes. My mother use to tie fringe for the knotted bedspreads. And she would pull roots and herbs, she would pull galax and things like that and she did some hooking like hooked rugs, hooked chair backs and hot mats for the table. She did that for a long time. And Miss Lord asked her one day, you know, there was a requirement for students there then, just like with Susie with her weaving. If the state paid so much of her salary then they had to be so many students being taught all the time and so that's why we tried to keep all the looms busy. And a--- so Miss Lord said, you should get your mother to weave. So I asked my mother about it she said well will you teach me? I said no you got to get Miss Lord to teach you cause she'll teach you the right way. She was a good teacher. Interviewer: Was she, I've heard that. Mrs. South: So she did go a time or two, you know, then after she got her own loom while I usually do. There's one thing she don't like to do is tie up the looms if a string breaks or something like that. She don't like to do that. And then eventually, Miss Lord of course, we were needing another student and she said why don't you get your aunt to weave so my aunt Fatta, my mother's sister weaves too. And they have taken Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Your sister weaves to doesn't she? Yeah, My sister can weave. She has dark hair doesn't she? Mrs. South: Yeah. She worked there at the craft shop for a long time. Yeah she can weave and my other baby sister can weave, out they didn't like to as much as I did. Interviewer: Your aunt is a weaver too? Mrs. South: Yeah my aunt is a good weaver. She's a very good weaver. She came over just a couple of weeks ago and put a warp on her loom. Well now she and my mother took over a lot of my orders. When I started working at the camp I quit doing a lot of orders that I always did and so they took those over for me. Especially the aprons. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Did they make the aprons that we have at Watauga handcrafts? Un-huh. They sure did. Are they linen? Mrs. South: No now those ate the mercertized. aprons. But Miss Lord thought We still do the mercertized 0 Interviewer: What about the linen placemats and stuff, do they weave a lot of that stuff? Mrs. South: Yes, my mother weaves a lot of linen and I'm doing linen in the �19 curtains I'm doing for Teresa. Pause in tape Mrs. South: Interviewer: And what have you been making? I've got work with cotton. Pause in tape Mrs. South: same thing. And you've got to, you know, . be able to fill orders, and do the They want the same thing. Interviewer: Just people saw your stuff and started asking you could you make me one? That kind of thing? Mrs. South: Yeah that happens a lot of times especially while I was working the re. They'd come in and see something in the selve maybe I had done. I put weaving in there while I was working there. Interviewer: Un-huh. Mrs. South: Or maybe that. someone else had done but they wanted a different color or a different size or something like that, and I've done a lot of special orders. I don't like to do special orders as well as I do just like if my guild shop, see there's five of them and if I keep them supplied with aprons. They say send me three dozen aprons they say a dozen and half o f the colonial patterns and they say a dozen and a half of strips. We make them with four different colored strips. You've. probably seen them there at the craft shop. Well you know that's a lot easier to. You can make say four or five at a time of one color which cuts down on your time if you're go i ng into it for production. Interviewer: Right. Mrs. South:But it would be nice just to sit down and make something and just, you know, not know what you're going to make, not know what's going to come out. I'm going to do that sometime. Just, you know, make up a new pattern and see what I can make. Interviewer: It's just real f un to do. Mrs. South: I know its really, its a lot like a painting you don't know just how its going to look, until you get it painted. Interviewer: What makes you like weaving so much? Mrs. South: Well I guess its because its about all I've ever done, except what little housekeeping, Mike knows thats not much of course I used to sew I did sewing for the kids and always £or myself. I've always made all our clothes until , I don't know there's still as many hours in a day as there ever was but somehow they get gone faster or I've got a lot slower one. �20 Interviewer: The wood and the pewter didn't do that much for you? Mrs. South: No, no that didn't. I enjoy just doing that and I made a silver bracelet once. I enjoyed doing it and I also made a stencil dress. I liked that a little. Interviewer: Stencil Dress? Mrs. South: Un-huh. You cut out your own stencil you made your ovm design, and they had paints and then you set it with white vinegar and I liked that quite a lot but still not as much as weaving. And I guessed that I liked it because, you know, I could make a little money at it, I've never made a lot of money but it was a way I could make a little and be at home with the family. Interviewer: That's a nice situation. You say youstarted at the craft shop, people would have seen your things, creating a demand for them, then was like the next stage starting at the craft guild? Mrs. South: Yes, that was a good thing, in helping me sell my things, because once I got in the guild, you know, you submit your things and they know what you make and they like it and then they order it and they have it in their shops and I've never had anything that I didn't sell that I couldn't sell. In fact I've ne~er made anything much to keep at home. Like I did make a couple of these curtains about 25 years ago the -----. Ones suppose to te in the other room but I've got it down right now. And maybe a bath mat in the bathroom. And one time I did make some curtains for a bedroom which I got a thread from, it was somewhere in Ohio. And it lt!aS very cheap; it was fifty cents a pound. And it was beautiful it had a gold metallic through it and a those were real pretty. I used those for years and years and now my sister!s using them in her room. But I've never made a lot of things for myself. Interviewer: Did the craft guild take---Did they take just a real big percentage or was it nothing? Mrs. South: Fifty percent. Do you think that's big? That's big used to most of the shops only took forty, they _gave you sixty and that was a lot better. But I guess that's one reason that I don't break my neck to weave a lot anymore. Now I've got demands for that lace that you liked, you were doing. They are writing me from all those guild shops all the time when are you going to do us some of that lace. Well I could be down there doing that instead of doing those curtains for Tereasa. But it just don't mean that much to me anymore. Its not that I've got that much money but I don't have too, and I got more for it I'd probably be more inticed to do it and still I know that they have to make something. But it seems like thats alot. Interviewer: I guess that was what I was wandering about. how you felt about the guild? How, you know, -· �21 Mrs . South : Now Mr. Carlson is really good about mamma . He pays maITllna a lot better percentage than' she gets when I send fier stuff to the guild . You see I sell their stuff through me so I have to inspect it and see that I have no fear ever that they don ' t come up with my standards. Cause I would be kicked out of the guild, you know, if I sent something that didn ' t come up . Interviewer: Do you think the guild ------------ Do you think people could market their stuff without something like a guild? Mrs . South: I think that a lot of them get to where they do now . know of one. Mike South: years ago . I think you could now. I don ' t I don ' t think you could ten, fifteen ~~rs. South: No that's right. You ' re right Mike. You couldn ' t then people had to I used to have to depend on it . I mean I just had to because I needed to - - - - - Mike South: There was no other market . Mrs. South: I didn't have time to get out and market my stuff . And , you know, I was going to get the money out of it when I got it made. Cause when I'd put the money into the thread I knew I had to get something out . So that its just a little it seems like its a litt~e t g much cause that ' s a non-profit place too . They don't pay any government taxes and now they ' ve built this new folk arts center , which is a beautiful place and they have beautiful things in it and after us giving fifty percent of our stuff we make, they asked for a donation for it. That's why I gave them the book instead of weaving something for them . So somebody is making some money I ' m sure. Interviewer : Mrs . South : Interviewer : Un-huh makes you wander? Un-huh makes you wander where it goes . I ' ve heard other people remark ---- ----- Mrs . South: I know one person that got out of the guild. Now down here Carlos my neighbor, he's dying to get in it and I ' m wandering how long he ' s going to stay in it, because he likes to market his stuff himself . They just came from a show in Mt. Airy. Interviewer: He ' s the potter? Mrs. South: Un-huh, he's the potter . Now Deloris you should make an appointment with him and talk with him now hes new here. He's not from this area. And maybe you don ' t maybe its just this area that you're working on . Interviewer: How did you get in contact with him? �22 Mrs. South : He was in school here . And my husband worked at New River Light and Power. You know, well they always in the summertime hired some of the school children for part-time work so he helped him. And he was married · when he came here and they ¥ ere going to have a little baby and they lived 1 in a little trailor . And Austin was building that little house down there. And Austin took a liking to him and '•Te had him out for Christmas. nis wife after the baby came, his parents sent her the money to fly to Florida so they could see the baby and he didn't go. We had him out for Christmas and ·he wanted to help Austin finish that place so he could rent it and then it went on and on and we finally sold him a little spot there. So he has his own shop . Interviewer: How long has he been here? Mrs. South : How long two years? Mike South : Two and a half . Mrs. South : But he's a real nice fellow, nice quite man. Interviewer: How did you get to know Janice Whitner? Mrs . South: Well let ' s see, . how did I get to know ner. It seems like I ' ve known her for a long, long time, and where did I first ~eet her . Probably at the craft shop and then she begin coming out here. She ' s a lovely person isn't sbe? Interviewer: Mrs . South: Sne is, she's dynamite. Sne really is, she ' s so smart. I like her a lot . Interviewer : So much of your weaving that you sell now, your orders are where people call you and ask you for things? Mrs . South: Yes. Now with my mats I sell, Betsy Morell out at, it used to be Country House but now its Green Mansion out on 105 just above the potter place the kilt room. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. South: Country Villiage, and she ' s in the middle and she sells all of my mats, that I make. And sometimes I make three and four hundred during the winter. Interviewer : That's a bunch. Mrs. South : But you see I don't do as much weaving now as I used to since I teach up at camp three months during the summer and then I'm up there a couple of weeks doing up the looms. Interviewer: Mrs . South: Do you like teaching? Yes, yes I like the children. I love the children. �23 Interviewer: What was the lady's name, the other weaver that used to live out here years ago? Mrs. South: That I just mentioned a while ago, Lulu Ragan . Interviewer: Yeah Lulu Ragan . And she lived on Upper Neat Camp? Mrs. South: I guess you call that Jefferson highway don't you Micheal? Mike South : Un-huh. Mrs . South : It's on out toward Todd. Interviewer: Route 194. Mrs . South: Yeah 194 . was not in her.e . I hope I didn't get my books · - -- - -- now her picture PAUSE IN TAPE. (picked up talking about teaching for Caldwell) Mrs. South: I did enjoy it. But the thing is, it kept I couldn't weave . But I may do it again . Interviewer: ~y looms tied up and How long did you teach over there . Mrs. South: A couple of winters wasn't it Mike? Mike South: Two winters . Mrs . South: I did it down here. Interviewer : nice. Oh right here. In your garage. People came up here. Oh that's Mike South: They were tied up year round that way, you taught at camp in the summer and Caldwell in the winter. Mrs . South : Interviewer: Un-huh, you see that way I didn't ever get to weave any. That ' s no fun. Mrs . South : Cause here in the winter time and just as soon as my class was over in the spring it was time for me to go up there. So it was six years that I didn ' t weave on my covelet loom. Carol Deal, Dr. Will Deal at the University now, he- --his wife made a beautiful one for a king size bed, I did a lot of extra work for her to do that . But I was not doing anything else, I mean that was just something I could be doing while I was teaching the class. What we had to do was we made two strips with the border on this side then we had to take the border off and make a middle strip, but that was really beautiful it was prettier than where the seem goes down the middle, cause it came down the sides and looked more like it was supposed to be. �2. Interviewer: So you went ahead and clipped those warp threads or tied them up. Mrs. South: I didn't clip them. I had to take them out of the heddles through cause once you take threads out if you just leave them hanging in the heads they're going to get tangled up and break. So what I did was I took out so many sections and put tape on it just like I was putting on a new warp if you've seen that done and then take it back to the back and let her go ahead and do her piece and then latter brought it back in to the border. Interviewer: That's a lot of work through. Mrs. South: That was extra work because I brought it a mistake in it. I had taken out one thread more and What I did was I thought I was marking the pattern on I should start but I had one extra thread out. I had cause it didn't look good. Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: ~rs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: Mrs. South: Interviewer: in one time and I had I'd mismarked my pattern. my draft right where to go back and fix it You have to read those right to left to don't you? Un-huh, f ight from left. Did you teach your neice? Toni? Yeah. No. Where did she learn at? She did that at the college. Now she's going to have her own show. Mrs. South: Yeah, she's goinr to have her own show and she's doing~~~~~ She did a piece for P. B. Scotts. I don't know if you've been out there. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. South: Well she did that wall hanging there. And now she's yeah up there the other day I don't know if you was there Interviewer: doing~~~­ There's a wall hanging in Pepper's I remember. Mrs. South: Well she might have one up there too. Mike South: Yeah she does. Mrs. South: And right now she's doing somethinE for a lady that's--- the price --~~~­ is $18QO for two panels and its somehow, she's an art teacher too, the lady is. �She wants it to keep the cold out and its a room divider and its all different colors and of course sne lays these colors in, like, you know. I have done a little of that weaving . Interviewer: Off loow weaving? Mrs . South: No she's doing this on the loom in 36 inch strips And I believe it was ninety inches ea ch strip was . Something like you see y~u pull in probably from 36 to 30 so she'll be doing 3 strips for each side of it. Interviewer: Mrs. side that have I see. South: And one side somehow matches the one room over here and this matches th~ room over here in color . So there ' s going to be a piece of hanging in the gallery so you must go and see that. See what all we there. PAUSE IN TAPE (picked up talking about chair bottoms) Interviewer: Mrs . South: interviewer : That's neddlepoint? · Yerah, , rrow th'is is -wool. Oh that's pretty . Mrs. South : What I got was like in a k.it, it was laid off like in numbers, and numbered for the colors. Interviewer: With this linen warp and linen, weave thing. up that way with linen warp? Mrs . South: Interviewer: Were many looms set No not very many. But a few towel looms and stuff? Mrs . South: Un-huh. Now Dare Strother, have you heard of her, over at Cove Creek, she always put linen on her warps, always. ( showed us some of her work and other works . ) Now this is a piece that Dr. Marge Ferris did, and I've got to let her come back and do some napkins to go with it . Now this was made on the same loom that I'm making Teresa's . Interviewer : That's a nice weave . Mrs. South : Now linen, they say never show linen to yo ur best friends till its laundried. And this hasn't been laundried . It will feel a lot softer like that ( Showed us another piece . ) I just washed that the other day I didn't---I dryed it in the dryer it had gotten so soiled. I just kept it for a sample, but I didn't iron it . Now that will be much prettier and softer when its ironed . But linen is one thing you can't get away with like this here-- that's why people like this �2' thread better-- because you can wash it, throw it in the dryer a few minutes and its go--ready to go. But this you 've got to iron . Interviewer : Yeah . That 's true . How--What--How do you think--What about the history of weaving in the mountains? Did people make looms do you think? Mrs . South: Yes, they do. Weaving at one time was just about, you know, unheard of here. Maybe a few people like Miss Ragan had one of the old looms, like Mr. Carlson gave to the college over there. Have you seen that big one ? Interviewer : Yeah . Mrs . South: I used to weave on that. As a matter of fact I 'm not sure that that towel was not made on that loom. Cause I made a lot of towels on that. What Miss Lord would let me do was put on a warp and when I had free time I waited for my father a lot he worked in town and when I would ride home and go home which was most of the time unless it was real bad. And I 'd be waiting on him and I wanted something to do . So she would let me have a warp on a loom and I'd weave on it. This is some napkins that I think I made up at camp one time with the lace center . Now these need washing to before anybody should see them. Interviewer: Mrs . South : with it. Interviewer : Those are pretty . Natural . What's that color called? This is the natural linen . Now do you see anything wrong No . Mrs . South: This was one year when it was about the first year that thread got so high and I was trying to save money for camp so I used half cotton and half mercerized END OF SIDE 11. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hyder, Wade Deloris Proffit Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. South, Ruth Interview Date 10/15/1980 Number of pages 26 pages Date digitized 9/24/2014 File size 15.6MB Checksum alphanumeric code b28169ac9b6f7646ad5fbdd8b21b8121 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape492_RuthSouth_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruth South [January 10, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hyder, Wade Proffit, Deloris South, Ruth Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Floods--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Watauga County Community life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century South, Ruth Description An account of the resource Ruth South talks about working with the NYA (National Youth Administration) under Roosevelt's New Deal policy and the classes she took on weaving. She has been weaving with homespun wool her whole life and sees homemade crafts as a very important part of life. It is certainly an integral part of the mountain community life during the early twentieth century. South also took classes in wood-working at Pendelum and Berea. 1940 flood Berea Blowing Rock Boone camp Yonahlossee Carolina Designer Craftsman crafts Deck Hill Green Heights homespun wool Meat Camp North Carolina art and artist expedition NYA Pendelum potter Ruth South Southern Highland Guild stencil dress The American Heroin Theodore Roosevelt traditional crafts traditional weaving Valle Crucis Watauga Handicrafts Watauga industries weaving wool WPA https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2b0ccdc7a7cc94a2e1007425296f5b21.pdf 485a0001a414e378d44a5807264da5bc PDF Text Text 1 Mrs. B: Tell them about going to Berea. Then tell about coming to Boone, and then tell about teaching your first school. Mr. B: Well, I better just go on to Boone. and won't get finished. I'll get so much history in there Well, start out there then. Mrs. B: Tell them where you were born. Mr. B: Alright, ready? Interviewer: I'm ready. Mrs. B: Just talk natural. Mr. B: I was born at Bakersville, Mitchell County, North Carolina, in 1892. What year, if you want to. In 1908, I went to Berea College and was there until 1917. particular time there was not a high scnool in this county. At that I even had my eighth grade, my high school work, and my college work at Berea College. In 1917, I went to the Naval/Aviation Air Force and served seventeen months until the armistice was signed. Then I came home to North Carolina at Spear in Avery County and in 1919, I went to Appalachian Training School. Interviewer: Is that the same place where Appalachian State University is now? Mr. B: At that particular time, there were only four buildings on the campus. Interviewer: How many students were there at that time? Do you have any recollection of how many? Mr. B: At the summer school, there was about 150 students. Newland Hall with Warsaw Braswell. I roomed in Old Dr. Dougherty and his brother had started this school in 1900 and it was known as Appalachian Training School. Interviewer: Was this education oriented, like for teachers, that sort of thing? Mrs. B: It was just a normal, teacher's normal. �2 Interviewer: What is, what do you mean by a teacher's normal? Mr. B: It was changed, you want to get this down? Interviewer: Sure. Mr. B: It was changed the next year to Appalachian Normal School for teachers. Mrs. B: It was known as Appalachian State Teacher's College and you couldn't take all these degrees, just college only. Mr.B: I had Dr. Dougherty as one of my teachers. tory. Dr. Rankin taught English. Dr. I.G. Greer taught his- Shut if off there just a minute, what was that. Mrs. B: I'll get out of it. Mr . B: I put in there about teaching six months school, didn't I? Mrs. B: No, you didn't. Interviewer: I don't think you did. Mr.B: After, you can turn it on now. After getting my teacher's and principal's certificate by going to school at Appalachian, I taught a six months school at Hughes, North Carolina. Interviewer: A six months, that means that . . . Mr. B: At that time we only had six months schools and at the end of the school year about Christmas time, I had a letter from Dr. Dougherty wanting me to come to Boone. I got on Tweetsie and went over and spent the night with Dr. Dougherty, and he offered me a position as a teacher and monitor of Newland Hall, but at that time I had already signed up to go to Sylva, North Carolina, and teach another six months school because down in the Piedmont section, they only had six month school and they didn't start it until after Christmas, hoeing and cutting tobacco. Interviewer: Were these for all grades of students and . . . �3 Mrs. B: For how many grades of students? Interviewer: Was this like on a high school level? Mr.B: For all grades. Interviewer: All grades. Mr.B: Yeah. Mrs. B: It was a grammar school, wasn't it? Mr. B: Yeah, a granunar school. Inerviewer: And were there. Mr. B: There wasn't a high school in, in. Mrs. B: (garbled) Interviewer: Yeah, was this, were these grades taught all together or did they have like different classrooms and other teachers or were you the only one teaching or . . . ? Mr. B: No. I just had one helper at the first school.I taught with Molly Ramsey. She's still living up here at Banner Elk here. Interviewer: Boy, that's really something! Mr. B: I had the, I had the first four grades. She had the first, second, and third grade and I had fifth, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh. seventh then was the eighth. The You graduated from high school in the eleventh grade here then after that, later on, they added the twelfth. Interviewer: I see. So, so you all, like, did you . . . you grew up in this area all your life, right? Mr. & Mrs. B: Yeah. InE!rViewer: Right, right around Minneapolis. Mr. B: Well. . Interviewer: Did you stay . . . how long did you, did y 'all stay in Bakersville and you could even tell us when you met and all that sort of thing, if you would like to. �4 Mr. B: Like what. . • Inerviewer: You could even tell us like how y'all got together and how you, where you spent your childhood years. Mrs. B: Ir's a funny thing about how we got a hold of this property. Interviewer: Really? Mrs. B: Yeah. Mr. B: Yeah. Mrs. B: Well, let's finish up about that edu . . . Interviewer: Educational thing. Mrs. B: Yeah. Interviewer: O.K. Mrs. B: And tell what year you graduated at Appalachian. This going to be helter skelter business because you don't know where you're at unless you know what you're gonna say. Mr. B: Well, I might put this in, when you start it out, when l - finished at Berea College, there were no such a thing as accredited schools at that day and time. Later on, they required a principal to have a degree from an accredited school. So in 1935 and '·36, I went back to Appalachian and got my Bachelor of Science degree. Mrs. B: That was in '38, Wallace. Mr.B: In 1936. In~rviewer: And what did you do after that, when you got your degree? Mr.B: At that time, I made a score of 99 and 6/10% in my school studies and Dr. Dougherty called me into the office again and offered me a job teaching history. Interviewer: So did you do that? Mr. B: But I told him I'd already signed up to be principal at Riverside School and consolidate it. �5 Interviewer: Riverside school? Where is that located? Mrs. B: Plumtree. Interviewer: Plumtree? Mr. B: And I told him, you're getting this? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr . B: And I told him, I'd rather just be a country school principal rather Is that one of the first schools around here? than to teach in college which I did until I retired in 1954 at Elk Park, North Carolina, at the age of 54. Mrs. B: 64! Mr. B: 64: Mrs. B: You were sixty-two. Mr. B: I retired in '54. Mrs. B: You retired in '54, but you was sixty-two years old. Mr. B: And I retired at the age of sixty-two. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. B: Tell her how the roads were in those days, how you had to lay down and You retired at sixty-two, not sixty-five . That's really something. put chains on going to Riverside school, how we did. Interviewer: Was it really rough here? It usually is pretty rough up here in the winter time. Mrs. B: Yes. Interviewer: How, how long a time did people get let out of school? Mr. B: I'm Interviewer: Sure. Mrs. B: Well, wait a minute and get this, get this. gonna tell you about me getting married and you can record that. Wallace, she asked you about uh . . . well now, back then you had to miss more days than you do now. Mr. B: I didn't miss at Riverside. Mrs. B: Oh, you never did miss at Riverside. �6 Mr. B: Only one day I missed and that was when it was sleeted. Mrs. B: Now, last year they missed a lot . . . Mr.B: And I was there ten years . just two buses. Mrs. B: I brought in six different schools there with The first year, one bus had to make three runs. Tell about the roads, and a little bit about the roads and tell how they developed them up until today. Interviewer: O. K. Mr. B: Well. Interviewer: Does 19E, was 19E through here? Mr. B: 19E, when we got married, was just a mud road through here but it's . . . Mrs. B: Gravel road! Mr. B: It was just . . . they graveled it. Mrs. B: The year we married . Mr. B: The year, the year we got married. Interviewer: I see . Mrs. B: 1924 . Interviewer: 1924. When was that, if I might ask? And then you were, Mrs. Buchanan you were talking about something you wanted to say about how you got ahold of this land, or something like that. Mrs. B: Let me show you this little piece of the road. Interviewer: Could you tell me something about the Tweetsie railroad and when it washed away and all that sort of thing? Mrs. B: Yes, oh yes. Tell her that when we first moved here in '24, Tweetsie railroad ran through this section from Johnson City to Boone and they had excursions on it . You know they used to have excursions on it. Interviewer: Was there, was there a train depot in the innnediate area? Mr.B: Right back up here, there was just a shed back out here on the side of the hill. �7 Interviewer: Right here in Minneapolis? Mr.B: That they stopped. Mrs. B: Well, the depot in Minneapolis. Mr.B: And the, uh, and the train came down here, plum down in here and went up here and then went down in to Minneapolis. Mrs. B: That's what you call a . Mr.B: This building right over here is. Mrs. B: That's the switchback. Mr. B: Switchback. Mrs. B: They call it the switchback. Interviewer: I see. Mr.B: They stopped it in 1932. Interviewer: How large was this train?. How many passengers did you think it would hold? Mr. B: Well, they generally hold about a baggage car and six passenger coaches. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. B: On occasions when they was coming through here on excursions they'd have about, oh about eight to ten coaches on it. Mr.B: Well, they had observation coaches. Mrs. B: Yeah. Mr.B: They'd stop right up here on the hill and look down the river toward And they'd stop right up here on this hil±. Spruce Pine. Mrs. B: Every time, Mr. Black was the president at the time, and every time he came through here he had the train stop. Mr. B: Had them stop up there. Mrs. B: Because it's such a beautiful view down the valley. Ina-viewer: I bet that was beautiful! Mrs. B: I wish it ran today! I wish it ran today! �8 Mr. B: I believe that old, I believe that old depot is in Boone yet. They're using it for something. They're using it for something or another. Mrs. B: Now, I went to Boone after we were married. go back and forth. I went to Boone and I'd I'd stay over there and room over there. Then, I'd come back on Tweetsie and get off up here on the hill, up back over here it was the time so, I'd travel back and forth on Tweetsie and I'd go to sunnner school. I'd take six weeks at a time and I'd come home every weekend, but I'd have to ride Tweetsie. Interviewer: How much did it cost to ride on the train back and forth or one way or whatever? Mrs. B: Very little. Mr. B: It wasn't but less than a dollar to go to Boone. Mrs. B: I think it was less than a dollar, maybe around a dollar each way. Interviewer: How, did it stop in Boone or like what was, how far down that way did it go to Marion? Mr. & Mrs. B: No, it went into Minneapolis. Interviewer: Just into Minneapolis, I see. Mrs. B: Do you know where Francis' Beauty Shop is, that building that was just burned down here? InB:'viewer: Yeah. Mrs. B: Well right over in the bottom, across from that was the depot. My uncle ran the depot, the man that owned this house. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. B: So he was the depot agent. Inerviewer: And then it just went around to Boone and then . . . �9 Mrs. B: . . . stopped here. Mrs. B: That's all the farther it went. Mrs. B: It went up to Newland and it would go into Pineola and stopped at Minneapolis, stopped all along the way, stopped at Stony Elk Park, stopped at Cranberry, stopped at Minneapolis, stopped at Newland and then it went down into Pineola and then came back and went around to Linville and then into Boone. That's the way it had to run. Mr. B: It's four miles into Pineola. Mrs. B: Yeah. Mr. B: The railroad was first built to haul timber out of this country and it was built to Cranberry to haul iron ore down to Johnson City. Mrs B: The iron ore mine is at Cranberry. Mr.B: They still run the iron ore mine. In~viewer: They still run the iron ore mine? Mr. B: It's still running over here at Cranberry. Mrs. B: It was the main way of transportation in that day. Everybody that wanted to travel, the roads were very poor and crooked and there were not very many hard serviced roads. could go to Johnson City and shop. We would ride the train and we Oh, I guess we'd leave her along about 9:00 and go to Johnson City, then come back and get off the train. But you know, back in those days, it was an attraction for people because everybody would go to a train stop. they gather at the post offices today. Why people were there like They'd gather when the train stopped. Mr. B: They'd gather to see who got off and who got on. Interviewer: That's really something. Mrs. B: They'd stop anywhere and pick up. If I was along the road down here, and flagged them dewn, they'd stop and pick me up. �10 Mr. B: And another thing they done away with is the Star Route post offices. Now they've got them on rural routes. I'd say they've cut out all over the United States, two-thirds of the rural post offices. Interviewer: Really. Mr. B: We get ours still at Minneapolis. Interviewer: Minneapolis? Mrs. B: But there is a route that runs through here. Mr. B: But now they cut out Frank down here. Where do you pick up your mail now? Roaring Creek. Do they still . . They cut out Valley up on They cut out Powder Hill post office and they still have a post office in Plumtree. They cut out the one at Ingalls. They cut out the one at Three Miles. Interviewer: Why, what is it? Did they just want one place where everybody comes to get their mail? Mr. B: Rural routes go out from Elk Park and three or four of them go out to Newland. Mrs. B: The one that goes out from Elk Park, that's about an eighty mile route. This man goes way back into Beech Mountain and then comes back to Elk Park. Interviewer: Does he do all this in one day? Mrs. B: In one day. Mr. B: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Boy! Mrs. B: It's a hard job. Mr. B: And people would gather at the post off ice like they would at the depot to get their mail when the mail comes in. Interviewer: Really. Well, you know those fellows over at the Inn? haven't heard from that woman. You know, I I wrote her a letter and I was wondering like when the Inn was built, the Appalachian Inn down here. �11 Mrs. B: Well, I guess that would be. very easy because that's a very famous eating place today down here and get ahold of Bernice or . . . Interviewer: I tried to write her but I'm not really sure, maybe I can get her by phone. Mr. B: The Appalachian Inn, I boarded that a year before I was married . I was teaching there, six months school. The girls that run that came to school with me. Mrs. B: We started our teaching career in Minneapolis, together. I taught two years. Mr. B: I taught the year, three teachers school year then, and I taught the year before and then I got married and I had a vacancy and I put my wife in it, of course. She taught then until she went to Elk Park. You taught three years here before you went to Elk Park, didn't you? Interviewer: Was this sort of like an apartment sort of thing. ¥ou know, like when you stayed at the Inn? Mrs. B: It was just like it is now except it's just been remodeled. Interviewer: I see, so they have like a cottage or that sort of thing? Mr. B: The one that they feed the big dinners in is the same old building. I guess it's . . . Mrs. B: It would be interesting to talk to Bernice or Hope, one, and let them tell you the early history of that because it's very interesting . Mr . B: History of the Appalachian Inn . Mrs. B: Even before we came to Minneapolis. Interviewer: Well maybe before we leave today we can swing by and just go visit them, Now we've been here 55 years. maybe go talk to them about it. Mrs B: I bet you could. They'd be glad to see you. Interviewer: That'd be great! That's real interesting. stayed there. I didn't know that you How about some of the churches in this area? know like if there was only one church at one time? Do you Which ones were �12 the original churches? Mr. B: Well the original churches in this were. Mrs. B: Not Minneapolis she's talking about. Mr. B: The Baptist. Mrs. B: And the Methodist. Mr. B: And the Methodist. Mrs. B: And later the Chrustian church. lt was the Baptist church. This new Christian church was built in Minneapolis. Mr. B: That's where we belong. We belong to the Christian church. Mrs. B: 1932. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. B: It was built in 1932. Mr.B: Well now, well, recollect there were two buildings before we built that It was a beautiful church too. big rock building down there. Interviewer: I see. The Minneapolis school now, do they teach first through eighth grade? Mr. B: Yeah, first through eighth grade now. Mrs. B: Not to begin with. When we came to Minneapolis, there were three teachers with a three room building, and he was ~he principal. Mr. B: Three rooms, three school rooms. Mrs. B: And when we were married we taught school down here, I guess two or three years, and then we transferred to Elk Park. a three-room school. Mr.B: It had three teachers. But anyway, it was A Mrs. Boners had a Well up on Little Horse Creek there, remember Shelby? that's the doctor over in Pineola now, there. Dr. Shelby Vance, he had a little school house up He taught first grade through anybody that through the eighth to anybody that would come. �13 Mrs. B: Really through the sixth grade back then. Course, we just had the first sixth grades when we first came here. Interviewer: Did you have trouble getting people to come to school? Mr. & Mrs. B: No. Mr. B: The first school I ever went to was over just above Bakersville at Not too much. White Oak and it was a log school house and it had split logs with holes bored through them and legs put in them and I remember to get up in one, that was in 19 and, oh, 1898, I had to put my knee up and pull myself up and then sit there with my legs hanging down like that. Interviewer: How about now? Like how many students would you say attend the school down in Minneapolis? M s. B: r They had as much as 300. I didn't know if they had three hundred this last year or not, but it's developing. Until now, when we taught down here it was about an eight·· teacher school. M r.B: Well now. Mrs. B: I mean in late years, not at the Mr. B: Yeah. fir~t. Well when I went to Riverside and consolidated these six different schools down here the hundred and thirty~six highest~~~~~~~~~four students one tim a Mrs. B: And you had ten teachers too. Mr.B: I had thirteen. Mrs. B: Did you? Mr. B: I had thirteen. M s. B: r So you see the school's really made a rapid growth of progress in these years. Mr. B: And a heap of the, a heap of the students or the teachers had been to Berea College. �14 Interviewer: I see. Mr.B: Berea, Kentucky. Mrs. B: But you know most of the teachers we had at Riverside come from Boone, graduated at Boone. Mr.B: Yeah, they graduated at Boone. Appalachian. Appalachian has, and you know that. Xt's been a wonder, I'm going to tell you this. It got to the point where so many Florida teachers would come up there and register up for one subject and room in the dormitory and spend the sunnner up there at Boone in the girl's dormitory, especially girls. Mrs. B: Because it was a vacation for them. Mr.B: And they would come up there and spend the sunnner. Mrs. B: They would rent but one or two courses and then they got the requirement to take three courses. Mr. B: And besides that they got their board cheap. .Mrs. B: Back then it was, well it was a nice vacation for them • Mr. B: Then they got, they, they, well, it was along in the forties they got to changing them. They had to carry a full load. Mrs. B: Three subjects. Interviewer: I see. Mr. B: They had to carry at least three subjects. Mrs. B: I had a lot of classmates from Florida when I was up there. Mr . B: Yeah, well, you see why they would. Inerviewer: I can see definitely why they would. Mr. B: A lot of teachers came up there. They was making a regular summer resort out of the summer school. Interviewer: Boy, that's really something! Mrs. B: Now, how many do you have over there now? �15 I~terviewer: How many at Appalachian? Mrs. B: At least a thousand during regular time? Interviewer: I think it's probably over ten thousand, I guess twenty. Mr. B: I think it's something over ten thousand. Interviewer: I'm not really sure. Mr.B: I see where they're doing a lot more building over there now. Interviewer : Yeah • they're building two new dormitories over there and they're , increasing the library; they're adding on to that. Mrs. B: Well, last year, when we went to the reunion over there, I don't know how many -- how many were there? Mr.B: That whole building full! Well, one thing, in place of doing my practice teaching, I'd already had practice teaching at, have had at Berea College, but Howell was principal of the elementary school which was connected with the college as well as the high school over there. And the last three months, in the spring term, Mr. Howell wanted to go and get, go to George Peabody in Nashville, Tennessee, which is a university, a big university in Nashville, and he put me in as the head teacher and principal of the elementary school for the last spring term. And I had about sixteen practice teachers under me. Mrs. B: Tell her about the night you had to spend the night there on account of the snow to take care of the children . Mr .B: Well, it was along in the last of February . It begin to snowing all that morning and just kept pouring and pouring the snow and pouring the snow and the snow got eight and ten inches deep. And the elementary building there, I, we had to send to get blankets and quilts from different places and several of the children slept on the floor . Because it was too rough to go outside and go home? �16 1-tr. B: You couldn't , the buses couldn 't run. Mrs . B: Snow was too deep. Interviewer: Boy! Mrs. B: Snow was too deep. Ini:!rviewer: And a lot of those kids probably come from way up in the country. Mr.B : Some of them would come from, brought them in from eight or ten miles, maybe twelve, over towards Deep Gap, you know where Deep Gap is? Interviewer: Oh, yeah . Mrs. B: That was 1936. Mr. B: Yeah, nineteen, the spring of 1936. InB:'viewer: That is long ways away . Mr . B: And not only that, I came over from Justice, Justice Hall there, and I couldn't come the road and I just come down the steep bank . Mrs. B: It's not Justice Hall now . ? 1r. B: And we came around by where the country home is for the old folks. It 's that new dormitory . This never, 105 hadn't been built, the railroad went 105, that's the way you came over here now, we came around by Valdese and up by Banner Elk. Mrs . . B: Tell them about that because that had dead bodies. Mr. B: And we came around right below the old folks ' home there and the hearse was stole there and had been stole there ever since 10:00 in the night . And it ·had a dead body in it ! Interviewer: Oh Lord! Mr. B: And they had convicts shoveling snow and we came to Valley Mountain. I left early that morning and I never got in home here until 2 :00 the next morning, but when I got to the top of the Howard's Mountain above Banner Elk there, why Avery County had it all cleared off but there was �17 certain places, the snow was twenty feet deep. Interviewer: Boy! Mr.B: You couldn't tell where the road was! Mrs. B: Drifts! Mr.B: It snowed for three days! Interviewer: What happens when people like get really snowed in and they live pretty far out in the county? Does anybody go check on them or anything, make sure they have stuff they need? Mr. B: Just a few years ago, they had over here in Ashe county, they had so much snow they had to drop food for the cattle, hay for the cattle and they dropped food to different homes. Mr s . B: But now, I'll tell you, · most of the people, they'll already have a supply of food . You know, they all can and they all freeze food and they're well protected in that way because . Mr.B: Mountain people always canned a lot and they dried a lot of food, too. Mrs. B: We do that still, we do that still, here. Really, nobody suffered. It was about '60 I believe when they had that awful snowstorm through, especially around Ashe County, around Boone. Boone gets a whole lot more snow than we do here but they have ways. Mr.B: If it snows anywhere, it snows in Boone. Interviewer: Yeah. M~ B: Mrs. B: That's what they always said. We have an awful efficient rescue squad now. When they get hurt up on Beech Mountain or get snowed in, this rescue squad cars, they just go get them and bring them to the hospital or whatever. Mr. B: I believe it 's three or four years ago, 's airplane fell into some trees up there. They rescued the two fellows in the airplane. �18 Interviewer: Well that's good; I'm glad they're alright. Mr. B: On Beech Mountain. Interviewer: What did you think about them putting the new highway through here? Are you glad to see that happen or did you like it the way it was before? I have a lot of mixed feelings about the highway they put in Boone, but I was just wondering like how the people responded to that. Through here? Now at first they opposed it very much, a lot of them. A lot of em say today right through here now, and we're one of. we're some of them, that if it were to do over we wouldn't be for this highway because it 's caused us alot of anxiety, a lot of hard work, that would of . . . they could of straightened it out and everybody says it up this valley ?nd out. Mr. B: They didn't have to take my rock pillars down there. Interviewer: No they didn't. They took your rock pillars down when they built the highway? . Mrs. B: Mr. B: Yes . They took, when they built the new highway, they took the rock pillars and my wrought iron gates . The rock pillars were 9 feet high with the gates built in them. Interviewer: And did they do that to a lot of people's yards or whatever? Mrs. B: Yes they did. If the highway did the . . . mislocate lots of people, their way of life. I nterviewer: Well did you have any choice as to whether or did you actually sell part of that footage that they took away there? Mrs. B: Yeah. They allow you so much. to do over, I wouldn't sign . They didn't give us enough. If it were �19 Mr . B: Where the road is down here, the owner had about half an acre of bottom land right there . And I sold the bottom land I had, all the rest is mountain land . Mrs . B: Well I ' d like to say this too . For the amount they paid us for the damage, I ' d rather it be back like it was because we would still have our rock pillars and wouldn ' t have to have gone through all this anxiety . They didn ' t pay enough for it . I wouldn't have the rock pillars torn out for the amount they paid for the road . 'Cause I ' m glad it ' s over now , and I ' m glad that we ' ve got the good road, but a lot of people were displeased with it. But I think now after it ' s kinda getting finished up , they feel a little differently about it . They do a lot of destruction . Mr . B: You see , they took all this hill off behind me right here to make that 50 foot field that comes do~m there . Still it ' s a steep road . Interviewer: Well, what do you think the reason for doing that? Mr . B: Well they wanted to make the road straighter . Mrs. B: And a better grade . Mr . B: And a better grade and widen it out. Mrs. B: There would have been . . . if they ' d gone up the valley and missed us and missed a lot of things and said Mr . B: Howard~~~~~~~~~~~over ~~~~~~~~~~ They were coming up here into my hard and we got a new survey on it and they went down 3 0 feet . Mrs . B: They would ' ve ruined us . Mr . B: Our house would be sitting up here on a bank . Interviewer : Well did they come to you and talk to you about all this and get you . here �20 Mrs . B: No, they surveyed it first . Mr. B: No, they surveyed it first and then we brought the - - --- and got in here and surveyed it . . Mrs . B: Yeah, I came home..: fi:onC Elor.ida :: and . Mr . B: Pegs were out here in the yard. Mrs . B: to throw the things away, and Mama come home ---------~ she ' ll have a heart attack, come up through her yard, so they threw the pegs away in the morning and we came home. And the man hauling us knew him, got this man to bring three of the surveyors there, because we just told them we could not accept a survey coming through our yard. So this man came down and he said, " I ' m glad you weren ' t here when I put pegs in your yard . " put pegs in my yard?" And I said, "You I said, "ThE;r'r.e not here now!" And I didn ' t throw them away either . we could put them back . " (Laughter) And he said , "Well you know I said, "You aren ' t putting them back, you're not putting them back 'cause you ' re not coming through our yard . " They was going to take a ll my shrubberies through here . So we got a new survey and they went down the hill . They don ' t consider your feelings, they don ' t consider anything when they ' re surveying , especially surveyors. Interviewer: Well, they're just doing their job.. Mrs . B: Trying to do their job . Interviewer : And they, they ' re probably just really immune to the nature of what That ' s what they say . it is they ' re doing probably. Mrs . B: They don ' t hav~much feeling . But anyway the road is here and I ' m glad it ' s here . Interviewer : Well did anybody around here try to stop it coming through at all or get any kind of . . . �21 Mrs . B: Oh yes ! Oh yes ! Some Qoman in Cranberry said she ' d go to jail before they took any of her yard . Mr . B: They didn ' t widen it out in Cranberry except . . . they didn ' t take any out . . . well they did, two houses were moved back . torn down that is right on the road. One was That one that Earl Greene lived in. Mrs . B: Well, I think most of them that are . . . well 'course there ' s the case of have to. You just had to accept it . law , you wouldn't win. If you went into They ' d win, the state would win . We couldn ' t Francis said they didn't pay us a third of what we should have . ' Cause I'd rather have it back, than what little money they paid us and we had to, of course, take out the money they paid us and put the rock pillars back and that cost us 1000 dollars . Mr . B: I have $1,000 to have the iron gates put back and the pillars built- in other words-just the work. Mrs . B: Well really - - - - , I think sometimes these things will come through . We ' ve called it progress, sometimes I think it ' s destruction and I'll make that statement anywhere . Mr . B: Well, they couldn ' t . ·. . now you take . . . they won't build a county road here, and we need a lot of county roads, like the one going up the river from here up to Newland. there now. It's only 5 miles up through But they want a 60 foot right of way ! now it don't matter where it is, they want 60 feet . need 60 feet . road 14 feet Mrs. B: For any state road Well they don ' t All they need is 30 feet. Because they only build a -----------------~ Well in connection with this road business, I ' d like to say that they claim they want to keep the ecology like it is and the beauty and to me they destroy so many beautiful trees that've been growing �22 50 to 100 years. You can ' t replace a tree in a short length of time . And that ' s the objection I have to new roads. They destroy so much beautiful surroundings. Mr . B: We go down through Georgia, we keep trying to find us a shade tree we can pull out under . And they're just little. Mrs . B : Well now we ' re not talking about Georgia . Mr . B: Well I know, but I say that ' s it, they ' ve cut all the trees away from the road. Interviewer: From around here . Mr . B: And that's what they want to do when they build a little county road now . Interviewer : Well I was really amazed when I came here a few weeks ago for the first time and saw what they had done to the road. Mrs.B: I wish you could ' ve seen this before, when we first came here it was terrible all the beautiful trees were down and Mr. B: For two years the dust came right upon my porch and we had to sweep it up in a dust pan and take . . Interviewer: While they were working on the road? Mr . B: While they were working on the road, yeah . Mrs. B: We didn't get to sit on the porch anytime. Mr . B: I had to redo my porch everywhere . Mrs. B: Had to take a hoe and scrape it . it . Just sprayed it before we painted If it were not for destroying so many beautiful trees and things .a nd stuff like that, a new road wouldn ' t be too bad . Interviewer : Well since this new road has been built and everything has this increased like the traffic? Mrs . B: Yes . They fly up and down this straight part through there . mortally fly . They just �23 Mr. B: We have to be careful going out, because they really come off that hill a flyin now. Mrs . B: I think it ' s created a lot of danger traps; the straight roads. Mr. B: You know, it's on the straight roads that people get killed more . Mrs. B: Some woman said to me not long ago she said I went over here you just come right down the mountain . Shooo! Into Minneapolis. Said a few years ago said it was so pretty and widening and said, and the beautiful trees, said it just ruined the looks of Minneapolis she said . Interviewer : (Laughter) Going into Minneapolis. I didn ' t even know I was in Minneapolis when I came here the other day; all of a sudden I was just there ' cause it just really, and trees would hang over the road. Mrs . B: Oh! So and in the fall especially, it was so pretty down through here, so many pretty maples. I did save my red bud tree. I wrote a poem to put on it and the highway men left it. Mr . B: It was 6 inches on their right of way, but they left it. Interviewer: You said something about a poem? Mrs. B: Yeah, I did . Interviewer: What did you write a poem about? Mrs . B: About the tree! Let me tell you about it. a couple had given us down at Charlotte . It was a beautiful blooming red bud. I had this red bud that It was about 12 feet tall . So I said to Wallace, I said, you know, I hate to see that highway take my red bud tree. I'm going to write a little poem and tie a red ribbon around it, around that tree and see if they'll save that tree. what I wrote . I said: So this is �24 I'm just a blooming red bud tree. Will you please leave me so the people who travel this highway, . . . I'm not getting that right. Wait just a minute, you ' ll have to rewrite this : I'm just a blooming redbud Will you please leave me For the people who travel this highway To enjoy and see the weeping redbud . And do you know, a day or two later or about a week later, this man c ame up and said, Mrs. Buchanan, we're going to leave your redbud tree . Mr. B: She put a red ribbon around it . Mrs . B: I put a red ribbon around that redbud tree and they didn ' t take that tree . Mr . B: They left the maple too . Hrs . B: I tied this red ribbon around this maple and saved the maple, it's the only trees . Interviewer : Well maybe somebody should ' ve , tied red ribbons around all those trees out there. Mrs. B: A lot of trees , yes. Interviewer : Well that ' s really beautiful , that ' s really beautiful . Mr . B: That scene right there is over at the picnic ground at Linville They wouldn ' t have taken alot . Falls, looking up the river . Mrs. B: It ' s a fall scene. You said, well now, they said it ' s, that's on the right a way just a little bit, they may not leave it . try it. Well I said I ' m going to I ' m going to make me up a little poem and sign it the W eeping Redbud, you know . Interviewer: Really? I don ' t know i f you ' re going to be willing to do this or not , but I was hoping to get this in while I was here talking to you . �2 s I was wondering if you wo ul d be interested in playing your organ for us on the tape . Mrs . B: Yes, I will. Interviewer : Well great ! Mrs . B: What do you want me to play? Interviewer : Just your favorite thing, whatever it is you like to play best . Mr . B: Did she tell you about this organ? Interviewer: Last time I was here you know, you can tell me some more about it. Mr. B: I ' d love for you to , if you would . You had bought this organ . It was orginally in a Presbyterian church . I picked it up at a second-hand store for $15 . Mrs. B: I'm going to play Marvin ' s favorite song when you and I were young . Mr . B: And we brought it down to the Christian church and Nell used it . She plays by (music begins) , she plays by shaped notes. (Music) Mrs. B: I don ' t think I can play it . Interviewer : Yeah, but that ' s okay, you can get warmed up. Mr . B: Play my favorite tune "Farther Along". You didn ' t tape that, did you? (Music ) Interviewer : Ohl That was real beautiful. Mrs . B: We might s.ing "Farther Along" . I really appreciate that . It ' s an old timey religious song. Would you like it? Interviewer : Sure, I ' <l love it if you would . Hr . B: Fellow came out from the University of North Carolina . He was gathering up ballads one way or another , and Nell , she used to sing a lot of ballads . Fact is, she went from Berea, they took her to Chicago one time to sing ballads . Interviewer: Boy ! �26 Mrs . B: Yeah, I made the trip. Mr. B: And he promised to send her one of the records of them . But he never did . Interviewer: Really? Mr. B: He was working on his Masters degree in the University of North Carolina . Interviewer: I'd be willing to send you this tape if you ' d like . Mr. B: I went to summer school in University of North Carolina in 192 7. Then I . . . first went in 1922 . Interviewer : Boy, you ' ve been to all kinds of places. Mr. B: I went to Columbia University in 1939. Mrs. B: I Summer school in that . could write a whole history about my life . I ' ve been . . . He never did tell you about when we got married . Interviewer : No, you didn ' t. Mrs . B: Let me tell you about it. Interviewer : Okay . Mrs. B: When I was living at Crossnore with my father and mother, and I had taught school for a couple of years and so I thought I had got a little bit of money saved up, decided I ' d get married. Well the a morning I got up it was/real rainy day on the third of July . So I decided I ' d better tell my mother , she didn't know I was going to get married . So I went upstairs and I said to my mother, I said, well I guess I ' d better take a bath and get ready to go. Well she said, where you going this morning, Nell? going to get married . And she $tarted to cry . I said, I ' m And my little baby sister was ten years old and she went downstairs and she said , Pa ! Says, Nell going go to get married this morning. she ' ll be picking her a bargain too . And said, Yeah, But anyway, a little while �27 Wallace came for me . He had a real roadster car. So I went to this old Dr . Tovitt, they called him, and got my health certificate and we were married in the Baptist church in Newland. Bridges married us . A Baptist minister. And a Rev . Well we came on and so I went on down to his mother ' s and father's and I stopped and I hanged from the dress I was married in to a dress that I could travel in. So we were going on down toward, over toward Asheville, and you know we heard this awful racket under the car . So he got out and stopped the car and there was all this barb wire that was wound around the wheel and he had to get out, now we're on our honeymoon mind you, and he had to get out of the car and take that off. Well we went on in to Asheville . We stayed, I don ' t know what hotel it was, but we stayed in a hotel that night. Next morning we ' re going to the top of Mt. Mitchell, but back in those days the roads were not very good . top of Mt. Mitchell. I mean it was just a graveled road to the So I said, well I have an uncle and an aunt living ? over at Canyon, says we can't go on to Mt . Mitchell, let's go over to see Aunt ~~~~~~and Uncle Walter . Well, while we were over there visiting with them, he said, you know we ' ve got that old house back in Minneapolis and we want to sell it to you. already planned to live down around Plumtree . But Wallace had But anyway Uncle Walter said I want to sell you that house . · He ;was in the timber business . of the car. So anyway we started home and a ball bearing burnt out And we went back home and my Uncle Walter and Wallace came back to Asheville and got the bearing fixed . and got the car started on the second time. And came back Well the ball bearing went out and he said I ' ll just go back and we ' ll trade with Uncle �28 Walter . So he gave us $600 for the old car . first payment on this house . And that was the Well Uncle Walter brought us to Asheville North Carolina, and we caught a taxi and now imagine what a taxi would cost, I don ' t know what it cost . Well anyway we caught a taxi . Mr . B: It didn't cost much that time. Mrs . B: Into Spruce Pine . Mr . B: And it wasn ' t a tar road anywhere . Mrs . B: And so we came on and when we got to Spruce Pine, ·' course . . . Mr . B: Well tell them about getting sick now. Mrs . B: Oh yeah. Coming across Bull's Gap the taxi driver had to stop ' cause I got sick . The ruts were about 6 inches deep . The car just went back and forth and back and forth . Mr. B : Even with chains on . Mrs . B: And I got sick and so I had to go on to vomit on my honeymoon, now mind you . Coming on home, well I got home to his home. We stopped. His mother was a midwife . Mr . B: We got to Spruce Pine and had to hire anoLher taxi. Mrs . B: Well I did . I told her that . And anyway we came on home and got to his house down at Spear, North Carolina , and his mother was gone delivering a baby somewhere . breakfast. Well the next morning I had to get up and get And of course I was embarassed being a new bride, I was just embarassed to get breakfast for his dad and well I guess that was all that was there. So we lived there for a few days then in the meanwhile we bought this place, of course, and we moved here in August 1, 1924. So we have lived here for SS years. 0£ course we improved the house . Mr. B: We ' ve rebuilt it 2 or 3 times . This same place. �29 Mrs . B: The house was really a mess when we came here because just squatters had lived here you know . But it's been a very delightful place to live and we have enjoyed 55 years of married life here . We think it ' s beauti ful and we love to live here . Enjoy having our friends come and see us. Let ' s sing them "Farther Along". Wallace, can you . . . sing the lead, now don ' t sing bass . Mr. B: You want me to sing the lead or the bass? Mrs . B: Well can you sing the bass with it? Mr . B: Yes, I can sing the bass. Mrs. B: Do you know the words? Mr . & Mrs. B: (Singing "Farther Along") ltrs. · B : I made some mistakes in that . Mr . B: Yeah, I did too . Interviewer: That was so nice, it really was . Mrs. B: We sang it at one of our church meetings . Interviewer: You must sing a lot . Mrs . B: Yeah . Interviewer : Well that's a real nice song to sing. Mrs . B: Well anything else now you want . . . Interviewer : Well now wait . Mrs . B: That he does, he does, but he don't. Mr . B: I haven ' t got it tuned up now . Do you? I'll tell you . . Is that one of the songs you sing? That's one we sing a lot. my life. That ' s a beautiful song . Sang it down at Saint Augustine too. I . . . does somebody play the banjo here? I made three banjos, homemade in It ' s down in Florida though . bterviewer: That ' s a real nice one . Mr. B : It's just not tuned up now . Mrs . B: You'll have to redo a lot of that because we made so many mistakes . Mr. B: Way back , back in my teens, I 'd take the banjo and I had one of these I ' ve almost lost the art of tuning it. frames, it's down in Florida, that you put a mouth organ in, and I'd �30 pick the banjo and play the mouth organ . And my dad had a drum that nis dad brought back from the Civil War and I beat that drum with my foot and I ' d make the music for country dances . Play "S ourwood Mountain" and different dance tunes like that (Sings) . . . . chickens is a crowing in Sourwood Mountain. Hey !Ho '! A diddle le a day ! My pretty girl lives up in the hollars . won ' t call her . She won ' t come and I Hey ! Hoop ! A diddle le a day ! (Laughter) Interviewer: That ' s really neat . Mr . B : Not anymore . Mrs . B: They have in the high schools, clogging . Mr . B : Just in the high school , clogging . Did people have dances around here a lot? But we used to have a dance at least once a month; country dance somewhere or other . Interviewer : Where did they usually have it? Mr. B : People's houses. Mrs . B: In the olden days they did . Mr. B: Just before Nell and I was married, we took her up to Dave Vances At people ' s homes? and we had, they took. Mrs . B: Played the old Virginia reel; what they called it. Mr . B: The old Virginia reel and square dancing. Mrs. B: Course they have the more modern dances now; you know . This Avery clog team and the square dance team-they ' re right famous . Mr . B: I do a lot of work like this. Interviewer : Oh that ' s nice. Mr . B : That's chestnut . Int el!viewe r : Yeah. Mr . B: Wormy chestnut . Make things like that . What kind of wood is this? Chestnut is a thing of the past now . The wormy chestnut, I see that . . �31 p~etty. Interviewer: That ' s real Mr . B: It ' s all made out . . . I ' ve got one in my bedroom there, it ' s all made out of one plank. there . I made it in my. . in Justice Hall over When I was over there in 1935 and 36 . Interviewer : Oh! Mrs . B: Yes, he has a workshop . Mr . B: Yeah , I have . Mrs. B: He made Francis Interviewer : Do you· have any other children besides Francis? Mr . B: I got, I got credit for 3 or 4 things that I · made · on art . Mrs.B : Show you these pictures here of the girls . ~~~~~~~~ down at Daniel Christian Church . grandaughter . That's a picture made That ' s Rickyl_ our oldest You see that? Interviewer: Yes mam . Mrs . B: I bet you saw that the other day . (Tape temporarily cuts off ) Mr . B: capital of the world do you? Interviewer : Uh huh, I sure do . Hr . B: I ' d say three- fourths of the people in this county are raising shrubbery that ' s shipped all over the United States . And it ' ll continue to be in the place of raising crops to eat . They ' re going to raise shrubbery and buy their, buy their. . . what they eat . Interviewer: Uh huh . Mr . B: I used to raise ooxwoods here . I guess I sold altogether during my lifetime, at least ten thousand dollars worth of boxwoods . Interviewer: Wow ! �32 Mr. B: That's these boxwoods growing right out : here, that's where he's making his living now. He sold a big lot out, right around here the other day. Mrs. B: She asked a question what you thought this would be a urban or a (phone rings) Mr . B: It'd be a urban. The whole county will be. won't increase too much. They want to get out. The town of Newland People don't want to live in town anymore. That's the general conception of a new life going on, is to get out in the country. Interviewer: Do you think that's a good thing? Mr . B: And that's really, yes, it's good. Interviewer: Do you think these people that are moving into the area that come from cities, do you think they're going to bring a lot of the really bad things about the city with them and do the same thing all over again? Mrs . B: Yes. Indeed they are. But we've already shown that they've brought into our county a lot of things that our people didn't know about. they've brought a lot of good things, but on _the o~her . hand, been a lot of wickedness and a lot of evil that's come Now there's into our country. We wouldn't of had . . . Mr . B: Well like up here on Beech Hountain, they brought in what we used to call blind tigers where they sell whiskey. You go into blind place and get whiskey or get it by the drink or get it by the bottle. Mrs. B: And on the whole I believe that probably it's not for the betterment of the county. As I say, there are a lot of good things about it, but it's brought, it's made a different way of life. have changed . I doubt if they ~ re for the good. A lot of things �33 Interviewer : Well. Mrs . B: I mean, that ' s my opinion . I ' d~~- onl¥ my opinion . opinion of a lot of people, you can discuss with people. I was talking to J . D. Ellis over here at . Interviewer : Okay. END OF TAPE For the I know � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Buchanan, Wallace Buchanan, Nell Interview Date 2/10/1976 Number of pages 33 pages Date digitized 9/23/2014 File size 16.1MB Checksum alphanumeric code cb5c8e77c4a8ab85b01168888696e91a Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape479_Wallace&NellBuchanan_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wallace & Nell Buchanan [January 10, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Buchanan, Wallace Buchanan, Nell Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Mountain life--Appalachian Region, Southern Appalachian Training School for Teachers (N.C.) Teachers--North Carolina--Interviews Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Watauga County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Mitchell County Appalachians (People)--Kentucky--Berea Buchanan, Wallace Buchanan, Nell Description An account of the resource Wallace Buchanan, born in 1892 and a resident of Minneapolis, North Carolina has been a teacher for most of his life. He talks about his early education at Berea College, his time in the air force, and his time at Appalachian Training School. It was located exactly where Appalachian State University stands today, only smaller and exclusively for training teachers. He had many jobs, namely as a history teacher at Riverside School. Air Force Appalachian Inn Appalachian State University Appalachian Training School Avery County Bakersville Beech Mountain Berea College Elk Park Farther Along George Peabody highway Hughes iron ore mine Minneapolis Mitchell County N.C. mountain snow Nashville Nell Buchanan North Carolina organ Plumtree Riverside School Sourwood Mountain Tweetsie Railroad Wallace Buchanan https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f099e09b459432a901e78277b4b4bc5b.pdf 6587e9c67687858b8dff9e6e706be022 PDF Text Text Interview with J. F. Parker Tape 467A, Side 1 . . . Trying to get a special election in the county to improve the schools in a certain county in a district, a certain precinct of the county, and I was looking after a little county store for my brother-in-law and while he was not busy I was trying to get people to promise to vote for day the bond. He came to the store and said to me one.'i when we'd been playing checkers and I'd beat him two or three times, he said, "How would you like to teach?" I said, "Teach what?" He said, "Teach school." I said, ''Why I've not ever finished high school." He said, ''Well" says "I believe you could teach." Well that gave me a boost. I had never worked at anything where it's anything more than just common labor and fact of the matter, I'd left home when I was a boy, about sixteen, and went to work for this man. My job was not only putting in work 10 hours a day but when I got in from my work in the sawmill or in the woods, I milked the cows after dark. A lot of times I felt for something, I says, "I think the cow's out there, I felt her but I didn't see her." So that was my job and that's working for 40 cents a day and I worked all slUTITler and he owed me sixty some dollars and he didn't pay me anything. He just fed me, and I went home on Saturday night, went back to work on Monday morning and he owed me $6S. When he started to pay me, to pay me up, he said, "You know, if you worked on for me a little longer I'll pay you SO cents a day." Well at 10 cents a day, I jumped at it. that. I worked on a lot longer at ~~~~~~~~~~~~~- But in the meanwhile I was looking out for this little county store and the superintendent tried to talk me into going to teach school. I'd been away from home .thru high school. high school. Well You had to go away from home to There was no high school in McDowell County and there was an academy in the adjoining county down here known as Round Hill Academy. �2 It was supported by the Baptist denomination and was quite a prominent high school at one time. and Wake Forest. It was rated well with such places as the university They'd accept those boys and girls who came out of that school. And I had gone down there a couple of years ... and that tickled me and I said, "Yes, I'll take that!" He said "Alright, if you'll come down to Marion we're going to have an examination for those who want to teach and ------- so I come down here and I stood the examination and didn't think it was very hard, and got along pretty good 1 thought. good in arithmatic. I was always As I was really a year or two ahead of my class in that, I was always interested in that and I want to say this about arithmatic and mathematics--I have never seen a good mathematiciam who was a blllil. I have never seen a good mathematician that was a deadbeat. And I ... Of course, you say I'm trying to make you think that I'm the real thing (Laughter) because I was good in that and I went on and did the best I could in that work. So I stood the examination and the last day of the examination I was preparing to go back home and he saw me out there and he says, "Julius, come in here." I went on in there and he says, "The man here wants to hire you to teach school." And I says, "I don't know if I passed the examination or not." And he patted me on the back and said, "Don;t you let that worry you." (Laughter) He was going to send me on to teach school! Whether I knew anything · or not! somewhere. in there. (Laughter) So now he sent me He sent me back up here in these mountains and there's no roads Two-thirds of the way up there you were in the creek, you're either on this side of the creek and on that side of the creek and most of the time you're in the creek, and I finally got up there. Well I didn't know where to go to get a boarding place and I didn't know where the man lived that hired me, so I over across the field where there was a pretty rough looking place over there and I though I'd try to find out if something was over there. I told them Iw-anted a place to board. �3 The girl said to me, says, ''Well the school teachers always board with us when they're up here." I looked the situation over and it looked pretty rough but I said, ''Well, do you suppose you could keep me?" Says, "Well I guess so. Mother'll be back in a little bit. She could tell you." She came in, happy also, and says, "Yes, just come on in here and stay with us, we'd be glad to have you.'' The room that I's to, for my room, was a side room out to the side of the house and they didn't have any floor in the place. that. They'd laid plank down on the ground then put the bed kindly up on Well, you know what? I wasn't afraid of those people up there although they were some of em not much. But I wasn't afraid of those people because I'll tell you what I was afraid of. They's snakes all over the place and I was afraid to get out of bed at night on the ground. step on a snake. I was afraid I'd So I tried to stay in bed in the morning until I could see where I was going, but I never did get snake bit. But I'll tell you, that was one of my problems. I went on to school Sunday morning, Sunday school. And when I got there I hadn't quite seen anything like that that was going on there. TI1e young men and the young women had cornered off over there and the schoolhouse where they'd have preaching is about half as big as this, just a little place, hold 25 or 30 people, and these young people had cornered off over there and they kept doing something that I didn't understand what in the world was taking place. I kept watching to see what it was and I'd see em move this way and move over that away and on back around and I kept wondering, ''What's taking place here?" And after awhile I saw that they had a snuffbox, a great big old snuffbox, you know. And what they was doing, they had a stick about that long, called a toothbrush, made out of gum, and passed around to this girl and she'd put that in there and put it in her mouth and pass it on to her boyfriend and he'd put his stick in there and pass it on around. And they . . . most thing that bluffed me, I had known that people dipped �4 snuff but I didn't know it was like that. Usually, you know people chew tobacco, chew, and use snuff, they have to have a place to dispose of something. And where do you suppose they put it? On the floor. bwh r bwh! (Laughter) And I thought to myself, "My God! Just . . . bwh! Am I going to have to teach school in this place?" Well I'd gone up there like I was going to set the world on fire and I couldn't run off. My brother had carried me up there, (he) said, ''You're a fool for staying up here, let's get out of here 'fore we get killed!" I said, "No". I was staying. So :Monday morning ent over there bright and early to clean up that schoolhouse and it I w tobacco, tobacco had dried. And when I'd sweep that, it'd just, /\ you know, dust came up in my face. Well everybody up there told me about a little character who had given so much trouble that the teacher just couldn't do anything with him. He was just a little devil and there was no way anyone else could make anything out of him. looking for Avery. So I found out his name was Avery Elliot. Everybody had been telling about how mean Avery was. He'd tie the school up and he'd run you off and all like that. watching for Avery and sure morning. bit. I kept enough ~ I kept he came in with the other children one I said, ''Hello Avery." He kinda looked up at me and grinned a little All teachers were enemies of his. Of general principle, there was no teacher that was any good in his way of seeing things. of his to start with, he'd expect it. And they were enemies So I was determined that I was not going to have a fight with him. I had been a boy myself and I knew some of these things myself, you know. So I determined I was going to have trouble and I begin to try to get on the good side of him, but he wouldn't make friends. Didn't want you about. So about the second or third day of school, a little boy or a little girl one came up to me where I was behind the table up there. They said, "Avery has got a snake in the schoolhouse." I said, "Got a snake!" They said, "Yes!" I got up and went back there and says, �"Avery, where's that snake?" · (Laughter) He says, "Down here." I said, ''What are you going to do with it?" He said, ''Well, I guess I'll keep it a few days and kill it." I said, "What kind of snake is it?" He said, "Ah, it's an old moccasin." I said "That's interesting, where does those moccasins live around here?" He said, "Ah, they're up and down the creek everywhere. You can catch em any time." to do with it?" I said, ''Well, uh, what we going I says, "I want in on this thing. I want to help you see what we can learn from that snake." And he began to get interested. finally said to me, he said, "Do you like snakes?" He I said, "'No, I don't like em but," I said, "I'd like to know about them!" So we finally got to where we could make the plan that we'd get a big bottle. We'd put that sn:.ake in it and put some water in the bottle with the snake. And before we put the stopper in there, we'd cut a notch on top of that up there so he could get breath in there, and he'd have the water, and then we planned what he was going to eat. Well the whole school were complete1y· dtm1.bfounded. were surprised beyond question that I didn't take him up beat him to death 'cause he had a snake that day. by They the nap of the neck and · · We put that snake up in the schoolhouse and he said,"The eat crawfish and they eat spring lizards." "Well could we'"'catch I says, a spring lizard?" He said, ''Yes sir, I can catch one." So he went down there and caught a spring lizard and we put that spring lizard in there with the snake and put him up here on exhibition. he was my friend. From that day on I saw him not long ago at a bank here in Marion. someone call my narne--the teller or someone had called my name. ' Heard And there was .. an old, old man came over there, all drooped and face wrinkled, and asked me, he says, "Is this Julius Parker?" know me, do you?" I said, "That's right." He says, ''You don't I said, I looked at him and I said, " No, I"m sorry, I don't." He said, "I 1·m Avery Elliot". (Laughter) But the thing about it was that that kind of a school interested those people up there. And I stayed with it, I suffered through it and I had ... �SB where the teachers had been going up - and I'm a bragging on myself just a little bit - the teachers who had been going up there, they a lot of times didn't teach the school out a all but they got disgusted and just pulled up and left, and said the number of attendance there were always gotten so few that the teachers just quit and went on. But the day I left up there, in that school I had more children than I knew what to do with. Wife: We had a picture once of those, didn't we. Oh, I wish I had that picture. It'd be interesting. But those people are . different motmtain people of what I'm talking to you about than other mountain people 'cause it's a difference right here in this county when you talk about the motmtain people. There's a distinction between . . . there's different groups in the cotmty. They were hardy people. A mountaineer, a real mountain- eer, has gone through so much hard times and everything that they are toughened. It takes a certain amount of failures in life to make a person what they should be. I remember another incident about . . . Wife: Excuse me honey, tell em about the incident, said one day somebody called and said the snake was eatin a lizard. Yes! (Laughter) That's right. The snake and the lizard lived there together ever so long, about 3 weeks, 4 weeks, or maybe a month, before the snake decided to have dinner. (Laughter) Some child came to me and says, '~4r. Parker, they's eatin the lizard!" Everybody gathered up to watch him eat the lizard. (Laughter) Wife: Go ahead now. We had a wonderful school. The little children came and before I knew anything about teaching at all in those days, I figured out this: in many instances from the simple fact that they're not interested in what they're teaching. Y6u must become involved in what you teach .before you can get the pupils interested. Interviewer: teachers are a failure Arn I right or wrong? That's real true. �6 Another instance where the mountain people here, they're not easy, they're not easy to change their mind, was a few years ago, many years ago, it was about 1908 or 1909 in Rowan County there's a Negro down there by the name of Nat Crumb that tried to assassinate the sheriff of the county. to do it. He was hired And he shot the sheriff of Rowan County and they found out who it was by some means, I don't know what means, but they got after him and tried to catch him. Well he kept dodging the officers. In those days you didn't have cars., you didn't have phones, you didn't have anything like that so you could keep strictly in behind a criminal and he worked himself on into McDowell County. But pretty well scattered, they were looking for him and there was a warrant for him of $1,000 reward for his capture, He came here near Marion and they spotted him and had a shootout with the officers here and he ran the officers instead of them catching him. He ran them and he went into the woods and they were afraid to go in after him and so he kept working his way on up towards .farther and farther westward he got up here to Old Fort. Well I don't know whether you know anything at all about Old Fort or not . Interviewer: Not very much, no. Well they're a pretty tough bunch up there. people. It's a mountain town. Have always been, those mountain It was a town before Marion was ever made a mountain town, before it was ever made a town. Wife: The Indians had a fort up there. Yes, that's right. at Old Fort. And, uh. . . That's the first block where we stopped the Indians there That is from this way. Now Daniel Boone, he went from Boone back across those mountains that way but Daniel Boone never did come up this way. But anyway, Old Fort was an old, old town that has a population of 600 people, 6 or 700 people. But if you want trouble, if you're ever looking for trouble, why . . . it's available. Wife: (Laughter) What was you saying when I interrupted you? �7 So this Negro, he didn't know what he was getting in to. He had gone up there into the mountains and those people around Old Fort . . . now there's a rather odd thing about those mountain people up there, they were opposed to the Civil War. They thought that there was a mistake when the South tried to succeed from the Union. stay in the Union. They were for the Union. And they were opposed to the people who were slave owners, all this section south and east of us here. the people was :in favor of freein A Negro. Wife: They wanted to Come in Frank. And so these mountain Thi s i s our son, our farmer's son. (Laughter) We got him out on the Son: Wife: They're recording. They're recording. Well, I better hush, hadn't I? (Laughter) They were in favor of freeing the Negro but they didn't like the Negroes. They didn't want em about em. the idea? They didn't want em up there. Can you get So they wanted to free them, they thought it was wrong to do it, but yet they didn't want them. They wanted them to Sa.y out of their way. Well that feeling grew up for many years after the Civil War and this Negro who had been a shootin up these officers along the way here, he run on to Old Fort and they found that he was in that connrrunity. him. Someone had seen But at that time the Southern railway had what was called a helper. It was an extra engine that was placed at Old Fort when the train came through here with a heavy load going west. They'd hook this helper on to the train and pull it across to Ridgecrest and they they'd unhook and bring the helper back to Old Fort and wait until another train would pull up. So the people there in Old Fort was armed with everything they had, pistols and shotguns. So they's two boys, one was 17 and one was 18. One of em was named Linville Idle - that was the younger one of the two, and the other one was named Walt Porter. I think they were cousins. He was 18, I think that's the way. �8 And they were there at the depot that night, was a sittin there at the depot with their guns" ":. Well .' the engineer who was at that time running this, I ·- mean the engineer who was n.mn.ing this helper out to Ridgecrest came back from one of his trips. He'd just pulled across, he said "Lim, I saw that nigger up here on the railroad." I saw him as I went up. They said, " You don't say?" He's on the railroad." Said, "Yes, I saw him! and says--those trains as they went across there pulling a heavy load, they couldn't run fast on those heavy grades up there, you know--and "he tried to swing a train up there," says, "I'm sure he's trying to get away from here." And said "If you boys are really spunk to do it, I believe you could go up there and catch that feller tonight. l'm going back and pull # 35 across in a few minutes and I Ill take you up there and drop you off." I~ n Said, "we'll slow down, I'll have an understanding with the other engineer on the other engine." They had an engineer on each one of those steam locomotives, you know, in those days, and said, "I'll drop you off up there." Well, they made it up how they were going to do· it and so when #35 came up, that was a passenger train, he's going to pull across. These boys got on the engine with Ed Winslow and sure enough, they got to about Round Knob, that's 4 or 5 miles above Old Fort, I'll show you a picture of that directly, they saw him. Still trying to make his way across there walking and kept hoping he could catch a train to get away from here. And so as they passed by they slowed down and those boys swung out. Well, the plan that these boys had for catching him--you know you didn't have flashlights in those days, you had a lantern you know what an old time lantern was-- they decided that they would put this coat over the lantern and hide on the side of the road. And when he came up they could hear him walking. And when he came up one little. boy ·would .pull the light on him and the other one'd pull the gun on him and they'd have him. Well when they came up there, the boy that had the light in this lantern under his coat had smothered the light out and he didn't have any light. But they made a noise �9 and he said, "OH!" Like that. And when they did that they begin :.. to shoot. Now they claim they told him to halt and he wouldn't halt and they shot him, but the truth of the matter was that they shot him. whether they shot caught him. And I don't know g: running or whether they shot him, uh, when, but they Hauled;\back to Old Fort, Now you take boys of that type, motIDtain boys like that, and you can't head them off. They're determined, that stock in them was just simply so ingraded into their lives that they didn't like a Negro and they wanted a thousand dollars and that was it. But I've had other means to find out - talking about motIDtain people and the other more, possibly those who have had better opportlIDities than these mountain people have - besides these occasions to know that they are of a different background and they are interesting people. In 1928 I was working then END OF TAPE I, SIDE I when this crowd came in here from West Virginia or somewhere to organize this help at the Marion Manufacturing Company. I fotIDd that they was a marked difference in the people who were reared in these motIDtains, had moved into that village there to work,and the people who had come in here from the South and the East. We had two groups of people there and they all worked together, but they didn't think alike. So when this strike was about to come off, they had an almost even split in the people for and against the union. The people from the motIDtains, they just thought to themselves that "this has been a blessing to us that we came here and had a job." The people we~e working for have paid us very well. cash at the end of each week and we~e making a · living..'.and doing And the group that came in here from other places seemed to think that the company were thieves and taking advantage of the poor working man and getting rich. And so there's a difference in that feeling there and it developed into a very serious affair. Do either one of you know anything �10. about the strike at the Marion Manufacturing Company in 1928? Have you ever heard of it? Well it was quite a serious matter. It went on for ... finally closed the mill down and crune to the place where the people who were opposed to the union decided that they were going to work. if they could work to go work, and let them work. And the company told them they'd opened the mill and turned the power on And this group that was for the tmion, they was just as detennined they were not a going to work. line to stop them from going anywhere. 1hey put up what's called a picket Well, you can see from this standpoint that this was becomong a dangerous situation and on a certain morning and on a certain night, they tried to rtm--they were rtmning 3 shifts then--and a certain night, the night before the strikers had gone into the mill and interfered with the people who were working and tore down a lot of their work and crune very near to having a shoot out there. But the next morning, the officers were there to assist the people who wanted to work to go into the mill and this crowd was, people who were striking, were just as detennined that they were not going into the mill. Well, that was it, the sheriff was there and he told em when they gathered up around there, gangs of them 150 to 2 or 300 people, says, "now stand back, these people are going to work and you got to open this up so they can work." About that time one of the strikers had what's called a picker stick. You know what that Is? A Picker Stick? 111.at's a stick that's on a loom to knock the shuttle that away and knock the shuttle this away. knocked the sherrif down and jlllllped on him. killed him. And he off and Well when he did that, someone Killed the man that was on the sherrif. And from that, both sides went to shootin and when the fight was over, I didn't see it, it was a little before I went down to go to work, they was seven on the grotmd dead there and I don't know how many got shot up. Some of em had a bullet through their hats and some of them had bullets in their legs and everything else. down there that morning and it was kind of a sad time. Well I got Said, ''Who was killed, John?" �ll Bill was killed too. And so they was one fellow there by the name of Bill Twigs. . He was a character, he was , from back here in the motmtains. was on the side against the llllion, and he was cut all to pieces. knew where Bill got thsoe cuts on his chest and arms. And he I never Some said Bill calimed he's in the First World War and had to fight hand-in-hand with the Germans and other people told me it's not so, said he'd been fightin back here. He'd manage to get all cut to pieces. But Bill was in it and he was the one they had accused of shootin with a pistol in his hand and this story wouldn't be complete llllless you tell something about Bill Twigs. He never knew what the word "no" was. It did not make any difference what you asked him to do or if he could do it, the only word he knew was "yes". My boss talked to me about it one day and he said ' to me, he said, : You know, if I should go to Bill and say, Bill, I've got to go to San Francisco on a leave and just as quick as possible, I'm going to drive through in my car and I want you to drive £or me, Bill. Now how quick can you be ready?" Bill would say, ""In fifteen minutes!" He always got anything done in fifteen minutes. (Laughter) Bill was there that day and he had a part in that shooting and when he was tried, was tried and such a mess, never did convict or pllllish anybody for that killing. know who was guilty and who wasn't guilty. I don't But Bill was a character and I want to tell you ]ust a little bit about him because he was a molllltaineer of special interest to me. Like I said a few minutes ago, he didn't know the word "no". He's back over here till ... back in ... I think it was in Avery Collllty where Bill was from and he went to a flllleral. and Bill's telling me about it. A little girl died over there He says, "You know I went to a flllleral and they brought her to the side of the grave, the casket, said everybody just stopped and stood there. Didn't know what to do. Couldn't seem to know how �12 to proceed." Says, "I didn't lmow what they's a waiting on." Finally someone turned around, said ."I don;t believe we ought to bury her without having a word of prayer." Looked around and nobody never prayed a prayer in their lives, don't suppose. If they ever did, nobody'd heard it. Finally said to Bill, "Bill won't you lead us in prayer?" Well Bill had I reckon connni tted every crime that you could think of. And so I said to Bill, ''Well Bill, what did you do?" He said, "I led the prayer." I said, ''What did you say?" Says, "I told the Lord Mary had been a good little girl and I wanted him to take care of her." And he said, "Before I got through, I said 'We'll be along before long, better take care of us too. Make preparations for us.' " (Laughter) So I said, "Well how did you feel?" Bill said, "I felt good." And I thought to myself, ''Well it's a fime thing because it's possibly the first time you ever prayed or ever will pray!" Son: (Laughter) Oh Lord! I don't lmow what he's told you but another interesting story at ... you can't stay for a while, you could stay for three days and he'd still be talking. The flu epidemic, when he was working for Marion Manufacturing Company, just about wiped out everything back in '18. Flu epidemic was in 18? Yes. Son: Okay, That was an interesting story about you and the black fellow whose name I've forgotten. Yes, well in 1918 and 1919, there was the most deaths that I every lmew from any cause. It was the flu epidemic. talk here, heard about this flu? times of my life. Have you ever heard people in your ----- Will I think that that was one of the trying I never went through a time like that because it caught the people completely by surprise. just began to get sick. And people began to die. Nobody had warning that it was coming. The plant had to shut down, Nobody able to bury the Everyone was sick. People �13 people. To get a doctor was impossible and they's just 2 of us left. I was paymaster at that time at the mill and where we had 6 or 8 or 10 that worked in the office there, they's all out sick. 1here was one black man by the name of Hal Carson that didn't get sick and I didn't. For what reason, I don't know what I went through it because I was with it everyday. there and say,"please call the doctor. get a doctor." 1hey'd come in Somebody's going to die if you don't I'd go to the phone and try to get him but the girl at the office would say, "1he doctor can't possibly come. He's got, I guess 50 people here wanting him and he just can't possibly come. Well the first year, 32 people died in a village where the population was about 500 and the second year, the same thing with 29 died and my friends, people that I knew and everything. I told, uh, talking the other day, that I think it was the most trying time that I ever was. We hauled coal, the colored man delivered coal to them, he dilivered wood to them becasue we was selling wood and coal too along to help. The store was there adjoining the office, nobody in the store. People would come by and just want flour and meat or something to eat and I'd just dish it out to 'em. 1hey never paid for it. I kept a little record of it and went on til this dreadful epidemic was passed and I sit down and began to try to find out who owed what. Never could do anything much about it. So we just forgot it, 'cause the company I expect, spent $10,000.00 just helping the people, just for everybody. Now, those are stories connected with the mountain people. people are different. about it. 1hey've got a great background. 1he mountain There's no question But when this thing about finding out about those people, the time is so fast passing that what you called "Oral History", I understand that's where you don't have any documents or records of it--just what people says about it. It's soon going to be a thing of the past because those people are not mountain people any mote, in a sense of the word in that they are just like �14 any other people. times. I know you're tired of this. Interviewer: Son: Their children are educated and so on and it's a changing Oh no ... Tell 'em about Epler (?) Dad. Who? Son: Tell 'em about Epler. Well let me first tell 'em about ... now really and truely, when you get enough of this, be frank and say that's enough. I'm not sure we'll ever get enough, to tell you the truth Mr. Parker. Interviewer: Just either one of you say, "Well that's okay, We got enough for today." Interviewer: We don't want you to get too tired. Well, but first, I want to go back Frank and tell about this. had~been The crime corrmitted of the mountain people which is completely a closed matter. There's no way in the world ... Now for instance, what I started to tell you was this. Not long. . . Well many years ago "tis now, I was sitting one day at a desk and I wasn't very busy and I picked up a paper, a Morganton paper. At that time, the editor was Mrs. Beatrice Cobb (?) and she was the editor and I knew her in a certain way. And it was interesting to me because she had brought this out on the paper and made kind of a headline out of it and I got to reading it. And it said, in that article, says, ''We have been trying to make a complete record of the people who have been hanged in Burke County." And it said one of the famous trials and hanging was the, what? Silvers ... the name of that ... Silvers woman ... Son: Frankie. Frankie Silvers. Have you ever heard of Frankie Silvers? The only woman who was ever hanged in North Carolina for a crime and she was here in Morganton. And Mrs. (Miss) Cobbs said, "In connection with that trial, says, �15 "we ran across another hanging which took place in Burke County by the name of a man by the name of Ralph Noblett." Says, "I have searched my records here far as I know, everywhere, and I can't find anybody who knows anything about who Ralph Noblett was, what the crime was or any of the details whatsoever." But when she said Ralph Noblett, a bell rang in my brain. a person who knew about it. It happened to hit Now this crime was cormnitted before McDowell County was made a county which was in 1843 and we were at that time a part of Burke County. And so the crime was cormnitted in this part of Burke County but they carried him to Morganton to try him and that's where the trial was. So when I was a boy, a small boy, I'd say not more than 10 or 11 years old, I remember this story. There was an old lady who then was almost as old as I am now who lived over on that side of us. She had a daughter who lived over on this side of us and she walked from her home over to see her daughter occasionally and we were friends. She always stopped at our house and had lunch. she was sitting under an apple tree. And one day I can almost see that apple tree now. It was a warm day and we were sitting there and she told about the murder that Ralph Noblett cormnitted when she was a girl and even before the year 1843 this crime was corrunitted but she was a young lady at that time, or girl, and for some reason she was stmm1oned to Burke County as a witness. story of Ralph Noblett. And she told the Now it seems that there was a difficulty came up between Ralph Noblett and a man by the name of John Davis over hogs getting into the Davis' cornfield and eating up his corn. And knowing those days, can you imagine it, if you raised a corn field, you had to fence your land to keep the stock who was running in the mountains. that? You know . . . did you ever hear of So that was back in those days, so the Noblett's claimed the reason was he didn't have any fence. If he'd built a fence, it'd kept the hogs out. And he claimed that they were just downright thieves and (would) tear down any fence to go in there. And the trouble came up so one afternoon this fellow - �16 they had became such enemies, had such dreadful hard feelings for one another that this fellow Ralph Noblett decided he ' d settle it with John Davis. And he went down there somewhere and found John Davis going from his house down by the mill to feed his hogs, to feed his own hogs . He killed him, just hit him with a club, and he just came down across him and killed him and threw his body in the mill pond. Well, they caught him over in Georgia and brought him back here and tried him and that ' s where the end of it was . In those days, and I asked Frank about that the other day, they didn ' t bury that fellow, Ralph Noblett's body, take it back to the graveyard where other people were buried. But they buried it off on a lonely hillside by himself and as I used to go to school as a boy, the trail where I went by the grave of Ralph Noblett, there was a rock at the head and a foot there that ' s still standing there when I was a boy. I never passed there without feeling lonely . It felt like something about to . . . kind of sacred ground or something, I don't know what. And I went back to see about it several years ago and see if I could find that grave and long trees was standing there, that big arolilld, you know. It'd grown up and not a shadow. Son: Dad, you asked me about that the other day, why he ~~~~~~~~..-: was buried there. I referred to that story Secret of Harvest Home, where's buried outside the cemetery. Biblical. And I got to thinking about that and that is Do you remember the money that Judas took to the priest to give them for the betrayal? Judas, the Iscari ot \vhen he betrayed Jesus? He took the money to the church or to the priest and tried to give it to em . They took that and bought what became Potter's field and buried him there and not in the other burial ground and that ' s where that thing . . . I told you I thought the idea came from Europe somewhere, they brought it over here. But when I started thinking about it, it came from the Bible. the reason they did that . That ' s They wouldn't bury him out in the cemetery because �17 he was a murderer just like Judas was. (Laughter) Well I had wondered if you had run across anything like that where it was a custom that criminals not be buried in there. Interviewer : right. Does that . . . I haven't heard anything like that. But I'm sure that's I haven't . . . Son : Did you see Secret of Harvest Home . . . on television? Interviewer: Son: Okay. I've read that book. You know the woman was buried outside the cemetery . . . I'm internipting here, I gotta go . . . Interviewer: Son: Oh, no. That's okay. I know what you're talking about though. I thought that might give you some insight as to why Ralph Noblett was buried over on that hill and not in the cemetery, because the mountain people, the traditions that they brought with them over here, they stick to them very closely still now. If you get back in the mountains, which if you probably done, you'd find em. Wife: Son: I figured he'd tell about Efler(?) Okay, I thought that was interesting because of the circumstances of the hanging . He is the one they hung at Cross Mill and rode his coffin up . . • okay I ' ve got some business to attend to. I hope I see you before I leave, but if I don't, take care of yourself . Well I could go on and on and on but I . . . Wife: Well you have to tell about Efler? (Laughter) He was hanged in Marion. Tell about what? Wife: Efler. He's the one Frank had you tell about when you got off on that . . . �18 Yes that's right. County . Now they's only one man that was ever hanged in McDowell They've been men sent from here to Raleigh since they've had the electric chair and the gas chamber. Wife : Maybe you've had that told before. Interviewer: No mam, I haven't heard that story. I sure haven't. But he was the man that moved from Yancey County across into McDowell County and here at Buck Creek. I dont' know whether you noticed Buck Creek as you came in this away . . . right down here before you got to Pleasant Garden. back here in these mountains. Runs right And on the head waters of Buck Creek there's a man moved over there and he, for some reason, I don't know why, killed his wife. And he was hanged here in Marion, the only person that was ever put to death here in the county. He was a mountaineer, of course, and they said the whole affair was almost unbelievable. That they gave him so much whiskey that morning before they took him out there to bury him. I knew people who was, when I was a boy, were at who ./\ this hanging and they told about it. And told about how drunk he was . He was so drunk he couldn't stand and possibly didn't know when the execution took place or anything. of that rope. But there was a boy who worked with me who had a piece His grandfather was one of the ones who helped do the executing. I think he cut the rope thru the trap that took his life. I wanted to show you. . . . pictures . . . which was very co:rrrrnon in . . . I can remember . . . there's a man plowing , plowing with his ox. this fellow is riding a donkey somewhere. I don't know that one. called Uncle Tom's Cabin, surely nothing could possibly It's ~~~~~~~~~~- But these was old pictures taken back when the railroad was cut thru these mountains. shovel. And here of course, And here's some of the old homes down here that the mountain people often lived in that. that. There's something here Now those railroads, that railroad was built with a pick and They had no steam shovels in those days and they just simply had _mules and ... END OF TAPE I SIDE 2 �19 Tape 467B, Side I That's an old, old picture. Interviewer: This is a hotel in Asheville. And that's the French Broad River. Is there a train there somewhere? Interviewer: There's a track right there. There's somewhere where there's a train pulling that mountain that I was telling you about awhile ago. Wife: Is it over here somewhere? Well, maybe it's on this. Turn on the light and you can see better. Now this road was a1t through western North Carolina. thru the Swannanoa Gap at Ridgecrest. And there's the geyser. Old Fort. There'·s where it went That was all done by pick and shovel. By the way, they've restored that geyser up here above I wish you had time to go up there and look at it. Interviewer: Well that's really pretty. There's a train on there. That might have been the one that you were thinking about. There's the little train that was pulling up that mountain. grade there on those mountains. That's very steep I know you're interested in . . . Wife : You didn't get thru with Efler, honey. Don't forget him. Let me see, there's something here that I thought about. Now, uh, you 're talking about education and after the Civil War, the North never helped the South anywhere. After the war, the South suffered. They lived someway they could and it's right interesting to me to notice now that we even help Japan, �20 Gennany, and all those countries get back on their feet, but after the Civil War arolll1d we scramble~d lived somehow or another but there's nobody on relief. We were poor but everybody else was poor and we didn't know it. we didn't know it. We had horses and cows and plenty to eat. removed off of the table ever meal more than we ate. not to have an ablll1dance of food. clothes. We were poor people but We had, my mother We didn't know what it was We didn't have many clothes, had one suit of But there's nobody begging. Nobody living off food stamps. is a letter that might be of interest to you. 1bat there 1bat letter was . . . now my son who is in Texas, he is a dean of a textile school at the University of Texas. my yolll1gest son. He's younger than Frank. And he wanted this letter, the original letter, so they made me a copy of that before he took it off. And you'll notice that person there that wrote that letter could write pretty well. writing. 1bey never went to school a day in their life. after the Civil War and that was my alll1t. 1874. 1bat was 105 years ago. 1bat's It's very good 1bere's no schools And that letter was written on March 5, And if you could read it, it's quite interesting. You see, she . . . now this is one . . . she wrote on both sides of her, that . . . and see here's where it starts. And that's the second sheet over there. Read it out if you can. Interviewer: Okay. 1be state of Tennessee, Cooke County, March 5, 1874. Dear Mother and Father. I write you a few lines to let you know that I am well and hope these lines may find you and all well. it is a girl. I have another child, Her name is Tennessee . . . (maybe Ester, maybe). months old the twelvth of this month. She is seven Pap, I (Oh she's seven months old this month). No periods, no cormnas, or anything. (Laughter) Interviewer: Pap, I want to know what is the reason you and mother don't write to me. It looks like you have forgot me. all but I can't come at this time to see you. would come and see me. I would like to see you But I would be glad if you (She has a very good handwriting, she really does.) �21 I want you to write to me and tell me who is dead and who is married since I left there . I want to know what has become of Noah Southers' girl and if they are married. duce. Bacon 12~¢ Give them my respects . a pound. Flour 4¢ per pound. I will give you the price of pro- Corn 60¢ per bushel . Wheat $1 . 25 per bushel . I hear that the Bald Mountain shakes three times a day . I want to know if it's so . James is putting out a big crop on the Whitter (looks like) Luttens ' plantation two miles from Parrotsville. So I will close at this time by asking you to write to me and direct your letter to Parrotsville ML Bearhill Cooke County , East Tennessee . Now by the way, do you know who John Parrish is? Interviewer: The writer, the man who writes for the Asheville Citizen sometimes . You know who John Parrish is. Interviewer: Uhm, Uhm. Well now read this right here. Interviewer : Okay. . . there were widely published reports of volcanic disturbances about Bald and Stone Mountains in 1874. These are the highest peaks in the ridge of mountains a few miles east of the Blue Ridge between the gathering points of the head waters of the Catawba and Broad Rivers . Clingman's reports, articles, and addresses describe many phenomenon occurring in western North Carolina. Now that was not too· long ago in the Asheville paper . And this is referred to in this letter . Interviewer : That's what she's talking about, isn't it? Volcanic . . . Rather coincident, i sn't it? �22 Interviewer: I never heard of that before. anywhere in these mountains. I never heard of volcanoes What about that. Sort of like earthquakes and disturbances that way, wasn't it? Ulun, uhm. Interviewer: Well that's really interesting. It's rather interesting. Interviewer: It certainly is. She has a fine handwriting. I can't read aloud as well as I should be. But she couldn't spell anything, you know. She really does. (Laughter) She couldn't spell anything. But the poor thing did well to be able to write and in those days they just didn't have any books or anything else. Interviewer: Well at least she had it spelled where you could figure out what she was talking about. That's right. And that's what the English language is for.· out what's going on. Wife: (Laughter) To find Well, I don't know of anything else . . Are you not going to finish about Efler? Efler, wasn't that his name? Well, they, that's all they was to that, that I remember. Wife: He rode on his coffin to the gallows. Oh, let me see . . . that's something . . . the reason I have kept that, that was the uh, called Custard's Last Rally. You know what that was, when Custard and his forces were completely destroyed in South Dakota, I reckon it was. Dakotas. And I knew him personally. he was not a fake either. . .one of the The only man that survived that fight and Because he had papers to show from Washington that he �23 belonged to Custard's a11JlY at this time. And he had been dispatched with an Indian guide to go back to General Reno's office. back to Reno's forces and ask for help. slaughter. Not his office, but And he was away at this And I knew Mr. Knight, Dan Knight, and I worked with his som. I knew two of his sons well. One of them was a graduate of Duke University or Trinity College at that time, and his other son worked with me and I knew Mr. Knight well. And that's the reason I kept that, is because of the fact that, it's just because I did know the man that wis in that. you've seen that possibly. Interviewer: The only surviving .man ... (Shuffling papers) No, I don't believe I have. Now you know who Frankie Silvers was. Interviewer: Uhm, yeah I've heard of her. Well, have you ever seen that poem? Interviewer: I don't believe I've seen the poem, no. Well, you want to read it too. Both of them copies are the same. That's what she's supposed to have composed before she was hanged. Interviewer: Oli, I see. And she's the only woman to ever be hanged in North Carolina? Yeah, Uhm, that's right. Interviewer: It was pretty gruesome business wasn't it? It really was. Wife: Would you like a cup of coffee and a piece of pumpkin pie? Interviewer: Water'll be fine. Thank-you mam. �24 I don't know, goodness knows, that I was possibly the poorest prepared person that ever tried to teach in the world. demands than I could possibly fill. They had no vacation. But for some unknown reason I had more They was one year that I taught a solid year. When they found that I was not busy they asked me to come to that school and take up in the st.mlJller time when they's supposed to be farming if Now I don't say this boastingly because it's just as much a mystery to me as it is to you, why that was. But it's so. And so I went on and I was asked to be principal of the school here at Pleasant Garden. Now that was only when they had three teachers down there then and then they had a school that was considered better at a town called ville. I don't suppose you ever heard of it, it was a little place back in the Southern part of the county here. It was a gold mining region and they had some stores there, two or three stores. Two or three places that sold whiskey and so on. And so I was asked to come there and I stayed there three years and finished up my, what I had tried to do as a teacher there. And I folllld that some of the brightest students that I'd ever run into were right there in that school. That the truth of the matter is that they knew as much as I did and I had to study ever night to keep them fooled. (Laughter) I stayed up to midnight studying my lessons. And I kept them fooled til the last day I was there. had me cornered time after time. (Laughter) And you have no But I made it thru. ~ <lea how they (Laughter) I fooled them to the very end. Now I was talking to a young man, and I've had people visiting me here of all kinds of people, the poorest needy, like myself, and some of the richest, some of the high salary people, some rich people. I had a man to visit me from New Jersey not long ago who is a multimillionaire and he came to see me. still alive and he came up here to see me and talk to me. He heard that I was And I have talked to all groups of people of every strata of education of people down here, and I have always got something out of talking to those people just as well as to the person up here that was well educated. I had a young man who is the yollllgest official �25 that the Carolina Power and Light Company has ever employed to visit with me here not long ago and he and I were talking about what education means. where do we go to from here. Where have we come to, And I have made up my mind it's something like this. That you find very few high school students, now I don't know, I went to college just a little bit but not enough for it to do me much good, and I don't know how it is now. been 65, 70 years since I was in college. That's And that was Old Trinity College which is now Duke Univer· sity. In talking to this young man who is an official of the Carolina Power and light Co. he told me some things that he had observed and the very things that I am conscious of it. That education today is made up of so many graduates out of colleges and universities who know something about everything. You can't start to touch one of them but what they know something about it and talk to you intelligently about it. But when you pin down on some of them, "just what do you know about this particular thing," you soon have them cornered and they know a little about everything and not a great deal about anything. (Laughter) A young lawyer here was talking to me not long ago and he said his mother, now he was a graduate, he'd taken his degree at the University of North Carolina before he entered the law school, and he had, I don't know, 2 years or 3 years , whatever it is, you know, I don't know. I believe it's two years. after they finish their 'regular education. I believe they finished in two years .. And he said his mother was talking to him one day and she says, "Bob" says, "you amuse me". Says,"You know a littlebit about everything and you don' t know much about anything.'.' ''Y6u can't read, you can't write, and your spelling's awful." (Laughter) And he said he got to studying about it and looking at his writing and he said, "I couldn't read it, part of it. says, "I'd write it and forget what I wrote and couldn''.t read it." And like an old man back over here in the mountains, \ he's looking after a mans pasture over there, taking care of his cows. in town. He's a doctor. The man lived here Bought him a farm back there and had cattle on that farm over there and he wrote, ·this doctor wrote him a letter and told him what he wanted him to do with the cattle over there. And the man got it, the old farmer over there, got �26 the letter and he couldn't make out anything. to him. So he didn't know what to do. (Laughter) It was a lot of cooking bark Said he decided to come to Marion and take it to the doctor and say to the doctor, "Doctor, I just got your letter, I appreciate it, but I couldn't read it," and said after he carried on the conversation a little bit, after the doctor had quit thinking about him a telling him, he got the letter and so on, says, "Here's a letter I want you to read to me." Said he pulled the same letter out of his pocket and handed it and said the doctor looked at it a little bit and turned it up this way and he said, "What son of a bitch wrote this?" read his own writing. (Laughter) (Laughter) So that's the way Bob was. He couldn't So I was talking to this, going back to my story again, I was talking to this young official of Carolina Power and Light Company. He's a high paid man. I think his salary is about $45,000 and he has taken his degree out of college and his postgraduate. And I don't know how much maybe his father met. And he was talking to me about the same thing that we are about education today. And he said, "I'd like to see some of your books. Do you happen to have some of your old books there that you are talking about so much?" And I says, "Yes, I've got some. They're almost torn up." see em." Says, "How old are they?" Says, "I'd like to I says, "75 or 80 years old." He says, "Hunt em up, I'ct like to see em." Now I'm going in here and get some of those old books just to show you what we was talking about. Now I declare I got completely off this mountain story. Interviewer: Wife: That's perfectly alright. Maybe I didn't get enough ginger ale in that, did I? Interviewer: Wife: Oh that's okay. Oh it's good, it's fine. I picked up the bottle and poured some in it and didn't taste it. I don't know what you believe in religion churches. a Catholic (Laughter), you may be a Protestant. You may be a Jew, you may be And the same thing with you Judy. �27 Let me call you Judy will you? Interviewer: Oh certainly, certainly. And you just call me Jeff. Uh, but there's one thing about the churches that have been the most change taken place of anything in my life and I can't yet understand what is taking place. Interviewer: Now do you attend church? The Presbyterian Church, yes sir. Do you attend church? Interviewer #2: Episcopal. Well now I don't know about the Episcopals so much, but I'll take the churches that I do know about. Now you're the Presbyterian? Okay. where I was reared they had a Presbyterian church. Now in my coTTUTlunity Not right close to where I lived but they had what's called a United Methodist Church now and a Baptist Church in that corrnnunity. Well the services in those days and the doctrine in those days, it was preached to the people by, we assumed, a qualified and dedicated preacher, was so different from what they preach today that there's just as much difference as they is, I think, to believing Mohammedan and Jesus Christ, almost that same difference. Now in the church where I was reared they had, if you, before you joined the church you was supposed to show to that church that you had a change of life. That you were what they called a conversion, i:::' which means turning up and going the wrong(??)way, that everybody was born in sin and they had a certain amount of responsibility to God to change this way before you were accepted as a qualified member to join the church. Alright, now in my church the way they did, they formed what they thought was a conversion and I've heard people good and bad claim that they really had a change in life at a particular moment. That you were one way one way and suddenly that you became a Christian and felt in your life that that was so. Well they had what was �28 called a alter and as the preacher preached and gave the invitation to those who'd accept Christ to come forth and bow for prayer and kneel for prayer. Well, that's the kind of a church that it was and I didn't know, I thought, now I don't think your church ever practiced that. I don't really know the doctrine of your church. But I have friends who belong to the Episcopal Church and I know that we don't talk what and I find out anything about that. And after they were converted, they call a conversion, a change in their life. what they called a heart- felt religion, that you felt the change in your life, that you were a changed man. 'Then you were eligible to be admitted to the church but not before. would get up and preach about hell. He'd preach about heaven. really there was a hell, and I thought there was really a devil. was a heaven, I thought it was a good place to go. 'The preacher And I thought I thought there So I remember one night I went to one of these big, what they call a revival, and the preacher got up and preached the sermon and the sermon was like this. he didn't. He knew all about it. He made hell hot, don't you think And it was a tent meeting out in the country with such a great big tent out there. All the different denominations came in and took part in this and he made that thing real hot. a lot that night. here. And I studied about that And here's a little story . . . now please, let me make a request If you get enough-· of my talk, I want you to say this is it, that'll do for this time. END OF TAPE 467B, SIDE I Tape 467B, Side 2: and they thought he was going to die. and looked after them. didn't have hospitals. . . the In t hose days peop 1e went into community "" 'They didn't have nurses, didn't have doctors to come in, care of And they went in there to take I\ a sick man and said his friend was over there that night and they said that uh. . . the man, the sick man �29 got quiet, quleted down, and that man that was sitting there by his bed went to sleep! And said he had a dream and said this man, this was his dream ... he dreamed that his ... while he was there that his friend died. And when he died that he'd been a very sinful man and said when the man died said there's a devil come into the door. But he said before this devil came in the door, says a little creature about that high with horns and a tail and all that you know. And he ~aid that before this devil came in the room, the man died and said he saw the spirit of this man come out of the body and said the spirit begin to look all around, here and there, and everywhere, as looking for a place to hide. And said finally it ran out, the spirit ran out the door and they watched it, went across the road and off down like that, in the woods somewhere. And said all at once the devil came in and said the devil came in, told what the devil looked like, said he came up to his bed, looked at the man, the man was dead. Said the devil began to look for the spirit of this man, said he went and looked under the bed, and went and looked behind the door, and he went- - - - - - - And so after a while, the devil went out the door like a hound ... a bloodhound. He seemed to have a instinct or smelling to know where that spirit went. Said he followed him off over that hill there, and he said you know when that devil got down there, siad I had gone to the door and looked out and watching that and he said the spitit of that man screamed. everywhere. He says that you could hear him all over And he says, "All at once I woke up." Says "I got so excited in my dream',' says, " "I woke " and said "when I woke", said "the man was dead." Now he said that creature says, now if that part of the story did, if he actually died, the rest of this story's true. And he had me scared to death. (laughter) go to the mou01er's bed in a hurry. (Laughter) night, I went over to Oh! I thought better He had me scared. So that and I lived about half a mile beyond where my friends lived and I went with them along, and I kept riding because they were older men and hadn't paid no attention to it, of course. didn't want them But I was taking it very seriously, and I �30 to lmow I was scared. But I haa made up my mind along ago that the distance from this house to our house has never made as quick- by a hoyse or anything else. (Laughter) I lost no time (Laughter) because I didn't lmow where he might jl.nTip out you lmow, on me, yes sir. (Laughter) Now they said preaching is that, you lmow in those days, and they had what you called people 1vould shout They get up and say, "Glory to God!" Thank the Lord that the sometimes. blessings that you see If that thing like I have seen in that old ----- church back then should take place now in the First church in Boone, they'd call out the riot squad, every officer in town, the sheriff, and everybody else. Say there's a riot taking place. What is the truth? Interviewer: It's hard to say. Interviewer: I said that's hard to say. Hm? Some of the churches up in the motmtains way up in the mountains, way back, are still, still like that. They are? Do you have any snake handlers? Interviewer: There aren't any snake handlers right there around in Boone, I don't think. But there's some over in, towards Johnson City. some over that way. There's But I don't believe there are any, I haven't heard of any right there around in Watauga Cotmty .anywhere. There may be some but if they handle them, they don't, it's not real widely known I don't think. Well I have gone to churches when you leave a church you felt like it was good for you to be there. It's just,you had a betterfeeling,y0 u•·s just glad to be there and have a part in it. and dead. (Laughter) worse shape. And I've gone other times and it was so formal and dry You was sorry that you went. (Laughter) Interviewer: Uh, uh. You felt like you was in Now, you've been down to Beaufort. �32 Well, here's a direct example. You can size it up, put an interpretation on anything I say about this, but I know this will be so . The people in those days in the country church where I was, they believed in helping the needy. If you had sickness in your home, they'd go there and help in .case of sickness . If you had a death, they'd help you bury the dead . you planted your crops and yo~ If you were a farmer and couldn't cultivate it because of sickness in your family, they went in and cultivated that land for you . Set a day, the church would say "a certain day we're going to go over here to John's house and we're going to work out his crops." Now said, "every one of you come and bring your mules and your plows and get over there and you people with a hoe" . .. I don't know whether you've seen much of that hoeing going on now. But in those days, the hoeing, taking all the weeds out of the corn and so on, was just as important as the plowing or the cultivating part . They don't even plow now, they do it with spraying to kill the weeds out, you know . But then they did. Now here's an example of how seriously they took that. Now that was part of their religion. They not only claimed ,., , ..., to be what the Bible teaches them to do, but they put it into practice. When the Union Tanning Company came to Old Fort, they came there to Old Fort because of the fact that they'd get tan bark, what's called tan bark out of these mountains. It's an extract. (wood ground up and make an ooze for tanning leather hides. And a lot of those farmers quit the farm and went to Old Fort and got a job in that. Well they'd worked not five days a wecl) they worked six days a week from ten o'clock in the morning to six in the afternoon. Saturday and all. But they were off on Sunday . Well now here's an example where this church put their religion to practice. One Sunday morning they were in church and they said, "Well, how's John over here getting." "Oh, he stays in bad shape, been sick now for two or three weeks, and his crops going to grow up in weeds and nobody's done anything about it." And says, what do you know about it? And they said, "Well, I tell you what we'll do. Next week certain times we'll go over there and work out that man's corn crop for him." And on that day, they went over there and cultivated that soil. Maybe twenty �33 five men and plows and so on go in there, and one day they cleaned that whole man's crop out. And then on Sunday, the next Sunday, there's this crowd of men there at church and said, ''Well," said, " we were not able to get off our work to help," says, "what should we do, do about it?" One man said, "I'll tell you what we're going to do." Says, "We're going home, we fellows that didn't get to help last week, get a quick dinner, put on your overalls, Sunday afternoon, we go down there and finish that crop." Not only did they work 5, 6 days a week . . . now I don't know whether you call that breaking the saddle or not (Laughter). Does that answer your question? Interviewer: Oh, yeah. There was a man by the name George Truitt. heard of him. th e days. George W. Truitt. You know, orators. knew how to talk. I don't suppose either one of you He was an orator. There's just a few orators I'll tell you Appalachia used to have one that But that's before your day and your day. Did you ever hear of I.G. Greer? Interviewer: Uh, huh, yeah. You know who I'm talking about? Interviewer: Yeah. He knew how to talk. everyone else. He could quote you as such, he could quote better than And you'd listen to him ; he's boy, wasn't he? Interviewer: smart. And he was a mountain Over there right around Boone. Yeah, yeah, he was over there from somewhere. So I heard Dr. George Truitt preaching one night and he told this. Now he believed in what you called a heartfelt religion, not a dry formal religion that is more or less made~£ education and culture, and no emotion. There's a lot of people that �34 don't want to go to any church where there's any emotion at all. They want it to be just as same as if you go to a lecture, and anything else. A dry, fonnal affair There's other people that does not appeal to them, that they feel like when you go there, that I don't know, it's just sort of good music, and so on, and it's just awesome, just does something for you. ---------. And we call that sometimes, we call it emotion. So Dr. George Truitt who · served at one church in Dallas, Texas for 40 years, he went there as a young man, and he'd never held the pastorage of any church but hhis one church. He was there at the First church in Dallas, Texas and I heard him tell this. Wife: He came to Ridgecrest. He came to Ridgecrest , yes. Wife: He'd come up every stumner for a week. And he said that he was at a church and preached. \ ... ··, • And he said that some •I woman got up in the audience and said, "Glory to God!" (Claps hands) And begin to what they say shout. "Cause I was telling you about awhile ago when you were here, now if anything like that happened, they'd call out the riot squad. (Laughter) And he had, Dr. Truitt had a brother-in-law who was a medical doctor. And when this medical doctor who was at service saw this woman there, he felt like that woman was physically upset over something that she needed attention. got up and went back to where she was at. and said, "John, leave .her alone'.' And so he And said Dr. Truitt, said he called him So people changed. I heard a woman, heard of a woman, she didn't tell me this, belonged to the church where I belonged to. She said absolutely, "!don't want any of that emotion when I go to church." Says, "they can get up and preach a straight sermon or something or other." Says, "Appeals to my eye. Me, intellectually," religion stuff about me." says, "I don't want any of that heartfelt So there's a feeling in the world today between the two peoplP., the two classes of neonle yon take your choice. Pay your money. �35 take what you want. we The church that I belong to received about (Chuckles) three letters a year, four letters a year, reminding us to be sure to give the tenth. That was the Lord's. But I have never heard of anything that they did in return for the people who was giVing this money. But they always have somebody way over yonder in Africa, or Europe, or Asia, somewhere else, needs help. And they're trying to help those poor souls over there. say this recently. But I heard a man certain He said 11 if I were in trouble today ,11 says ' r belong to ~church, but if I were in trouble today," he says, " to whom do you think I would go? " 11 I says, well, I know who I 'd go to .' ' And he said ," I ' ll tell you who I 'd go to , I'd go to my banker first. ' (Laughter) And he said," I think I'd get some help there / he says, 11 if I didn't I'd go to my doctor ,'' says, ''he's a good friend of mine," says, he'll help me . 11 And he says, if I didn't get all I needed there, he says, then I 'd go to, my;' sanebody else. where does your church come in? 11 I says, " I thought they were to help the poor I and the sick, and the needy. ' He says, "Oh . (Laughter) Now that's the feeling. 'i) Says mark it off, says they don't. How much better are you off if you belong to a church, than if you were not a church member? mind? And I said, 11 well Is there anything in your If there's no reason for it, only to support somebody that you don't know where the money ever gets to them or not. There's a big question mark in my mind. And I began to think differently. What do you think about it? Interviewer: Well, I feel like there's a lot of churches where there's not very much spirit left in them. these days. And I don't know what to do. Well, I am glad that you're a young man and all and I think it's nice that you have that feeling. Wife: I think it's corrnnendable. One of our church members said that our preacher didn't know the scripture enough to preach from it and the people in the .audience didn't know enough to know whether he was preaching from it or not. (Laughter) Didn't know the scri~ture either. �36 Now there's a lot of people that believe the Bible so thoroughly that they can't figure out whether it can possibly be one pronoun or one adjective used for what's absolutely true, it's directly from God. Well I was talking to one of those, now I believe the Bible reasonably well, but the Bible has been taken from scrolls through the hands of people who have translated from those scrolls into what we call the Bible. Now I don't know any Greek. Do you either one of you study Greek? Did you ever study Greek? Well I am told that the word that was placed in the scripture there, that said that when the thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom," if you've read the scripture, you've read that possibly. paradise today." And he says to him, "Behold thou shalt be with me in Now I'm told by a Greek scholar that that word where it was translated there, into paradise, the very identical same Greek word as translated in other places in the Bible was the word death. So here you are. 1bat's what people think, paradise is a certain place that Jesus is talking about, special place that you, we will be there together in paradise. 1be other thing said that it didn't mean a thing more than what Jesus said back to him. going to die. (Laughter) Same Greek word. that, one in particular, I pin down on him. Today we're both And I've asked Greek students about I said I want you to look word up for me and tell me for sure what it means. that And he went off and says well I have to look up my, and I never could get anything more out of him, I don't know where · he got stalled, didn't know what he was talking about, just didn't want to talk. Now I'll tell you another instance if you're a Bible student and read the Bible, where there's a difference that's questionable. In Matthew, in the gospel of Matthew, it said when Peter denied Christ, that there's a girl come to Peter, says, "You're one of His followers." And he said, "No, no I'm not." And then Matthew goes on to say that later on another woman said to him "Surely thou art one of His followers because you speak of as Galileans speak," had kind of a different accent on the way, and he denied it again. And then a third time a man �37 said to him, "I know you are one of . . . " and he denied him a third time. Well, now what does, what does ~ays Luke, Gospel of Luke say about it? The Luke this, Luke says, "And a girl," a damsel I believe it says, said to Peter that "you are a follower of Jesus Christ." And he said, "I'm not, I'm not a follower of His." And then Luke says, a man said to him, "You are." He denied it again. Then another man said to him, "Thou art," Now there's two, there's two just point out little things like that that you have to allow things like that. One gospel said that there's two women and a man. two men and a wol'Tlan. The other one says there's Now when you say that the whole Bible is ever word true, that I don't say that the trouble is with the Bible originally, but it's gone through so many hands and the translations, been translated and translated. The fact of the matter is when the King James, now if I'm wrong about this, you correct me, you've possibl s t udied this, when King James had the Bible translated <yes the from the Greek from th); New Testament is in Greek I believe and Old Bible's in Hebrew. When they had that . . . when they's appointed some monks, King James appointed some monks and there's one he~ kinda head monk who was seemed to be the thing that ran things and they picked up all these different scrolls and decided then and there which were the scrolls that should go in the Bible, and they classified them and ever since then everybody says this is the Bible, it's all true. I don't believe, just be honest about it, I don't believe the book of Job and the book of Jonah, swallowing the whale. Wife: You know that story. Jonah didn't swallow the whale, the whale swallowed Jonah. (Laughter). I don't think that was ever intended to be put in the Bible. exactly like the book Pilgrim's Progress. Don't know whether you ever heard of the Pilgrim's Progress? The Pilgrim's ..ProgTess is the story as simply fiction. I think that It was never intended being there. I think it was of~ Christian's life the book of Job, was a work of fiction. It's a good book, it teaches us a lot of good things to live by, and all like that, but to say it was a direct work from God �38 be nrinted like that. Now for instance in that book of Job, now please stop me if you get tired of this stuff. Interviewers: No. Wife: You've talked enough for all day. Interviewer: Go ahead. (Lau12:hter) In the book of Job, it said . I think it's in the chapter, second chapter of Job, it said that t.he nevil accompanied by somebody came before God in passing and it said, the devil said to God. he said, the devil said, "if vou turn your back on people and are not a friend to them," says, "none of em will serve you. What people serve God for is the good they get out of it, financially and things like that." And God said to the devil, "Have you considered my servant Job?" And the devil said. "If you turn your back on Job or turn him over to me and let me deal with him, you' 11 find he' 11 turn his back on you too." And said the Lord permitted him to be turned over to the devil. Now can you imagine, can you imagine that God/ the Creator of the heavens and the Earth and everything to the stars would have a little enough care for a creature to turn him over to the devil? Just to prove to the man, you can't prove anvthing to the devil, turn him over to him and let him ... vou know the boils he went through, sores, how his property was taken from him1 sons killed and all that. Can you imagine our creator and a man who has created the heavens and the Earth, things like eternal that is just so unreasonable that I just simply can't accept it. God he is, we're in bad shape. (Laughter) END OF TAPE If that's the kind of � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Parker, J. F. Location The location of the interview. McDowell County, NC Number of pages 38 pages Date digitized 9/23/2014 File size 25.8MB Checksum alphanumeric code 7f2651391849c681b3916ffa79f9c215 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape467_JFParker_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with J.F. Parker Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Parker, J.F. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Marion County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--McDowell County Appalachians (People)--North Carolina--Rowan County Marion County (N.C.)--Social life and customs McDowell County (N.C.)--Social life and customs Rowan County (N.C.)--Social life and customs Parker, J. F. Description An account of the resource J.F. Parker talks about his experience as a teacher with the mountain people living in Old Fort. Although he had never finished high school, he got a job as a teacher. He said: "He was going to send me on to teach school whether I knew anything or not." He talks about the hardships living up there, how school attendance was often very low and the kids brought snakes to the schoolhouse. He says the mountain people were a different breed of folk and they understood that "it takes a certain amount of failure in life to make a person what they should be." They were hardened, but strong and firm. Civil War Custard's Last Rally Custard's Last Stand Episcopal Church flu epidemic Frankie Silvers hangings J.F. Parker Marion County N.C. Marion Manufacturing Company McDowell County N.C. Morganton mountain people Old Fort Presbyterian Church railroad Ralph Noblett Rowan County schoolhouse Sunday School teaching https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/6954a572792bd70c120b2f894413f90f.pdf 810d79cc1c7d367165cbc84c6725ac45 PDF Text Text Interview with Mrs. Ethel Burns by Pat Morgan I. Childhood A. B. C. II. C. D. E. F. V. VIII. (L) Made small profits on large sales Sold from catalogues Not so money conscious Did not take advantage of the rich (S) Older people with no children Not many young people her age Years being discussed A. B. (L) Community club Carnival in the Park 1. jobs for local people 2. money for library Feeling of inferiority of local people Holthozers were accepted in their homes Tourists as church workers Local people's living depended on tourists Types of tourists A. B. VII. Born in Rowan Co. Moved to Blowing Rock Father's business A. B. C. D. VI. (S) Relationships to tourists A. B. (S) 1915 - '20; age 10 or 12 Born in 1908 Change to need for money (S) A. (S) Independent man Story about Mrs. Cone His love for mountains His desire to build an inn Father's background A. B. IV. Family Involvement with tourists Feelings about tourists 1. "summer people" 2. tourists in the home Father's attitudes toward the tourists A. B. C. D. III. (S) Father not money minded ) �B. C. D. IX. Sunshine Inn and Mrs. Burns A. B. X. XII. XVI. (S) No interference from government Health department standards (L) Paid as a team--$25/week Increase in pay over the years--$100/wk each Loyal and hard workers Discipline A. B. (S) Not cut out to be a boss Did not scold individually Work done by the Burns A. B. C. (L) Year-round job Waitresses went to school Cooks went home 1. John and Maggie Jones 2. Room behind kitchen for summer The Jones A. B. C. XV. (S) Nothing in town Playing of games in dining room Inn grew A. B. XIV. Description Everyone was part of the family Did all their own work Waitress work Guests stayed sometimes two months $15.00 per week to stay Meals at the inn Closing at Labor Day A. B. C. XIII. (L) Entertainment A. B. (S) Father built in 1929 The Depression: the move to Blowing Rock The inn A. B. C. D. E. F. G. XI. Others started seasonal rates Yen for money grew Father was a fair businessman 1. Taught children not to use credit 2. Most important lesson (S) Husband was dishwasher She was maid Work got easier �XVII. Guests' attitudes A. B. C. XVIII. XIX. E. C. D. (L) Jones felt too inferior to associate Very humble Jones boy could not play with Burns boy Maggie couldn't understand any kind of segregation John was afraid 1. Experience when Holthozer's store was built 2. Negroes were stoned (L) No bookkeeping Not much attention to profit or loss Experience taught her to estimate Salesmen started to sell by portions 1. Bigger profit for inn 2. She didn't like that method Wanted only enough money to get through winter 1. No money in bank 2. Watauga Savings and Loan Change in tourist business A. B. XXIII. Couple had too much breakfast Complained and unsatisfied Left without paying Business attitudes A. B. C. D. XXII. (S) Jones' relationship to the guests and the Burns A. B. C. D. E. XXI. (S) Jewish family unfriendly Another family criticized service Funny things A. B. C. XX. Stayed long time Mr. Dillon 1. disappointed at first 2. began to like it 3. came back year after year Most of the guests were satisfied Unpleasant things A. B. (L) (L) 1969--retirement after 40 years work Transits people 1. Biggest change 2. Always on the go 3. More incontentment Trade has more than doubled 1. Land of Oz 2. Tweetsie Still room for improvement Advertising (S) �A. B. C. .XX:IV . Difference in family- owned and non- family-owned business (L) A. B. C. D. E. XXV . B. D. Senator ' s son was coming Mrs . Burns agrees to impress him He came early 1 . tables wer e shoved together for lunch 2 . very informal He didn ' t seem to mind (S) Didn ' t have any Mr . Burns fixed up intercom Bad response--idea dropped Auctions Movies Other Interference from government A. B. C. D. E. X.XX: . (S) Guests found other entertainment A. B. C. .XX:IX . Different games 1 . "Pig" 2 . Post Offi ce Disturbed a guest one night 1 . he complained 2. soon forgot about it Music A. B. C. XXVIII . ( S) Informality of the Inn A. B. C. .XX:VII . Different attitudes in money making Local people sold out because of a good offer Real estate out- of- sight Nothing like that in earlier days Martin House and Green Inn Games A. XXVI . Chamber of Commerce 1 . posters in other states 2 . tourists came and were let down New sign--" Sunshine Inn" Use the money more wisely 1 . happy cust omers spr ead the word 2 . best way to advertise (L) Privilege license Sales tax Social Security Withholding tax Told how to run the inn Getting out of the business (S) (S) �A. B. XXXI. Glad because of the things involved Sad because customers were let down One family in particular--the Butlers A. B. C. (S) Came there for honeymoon Came every summer after that until closing By that time they had a daughter �With Ethel Burns on January the fifth, 1975 at her home in Blowing Rock with Pat Morgan with the Appalachian Oral History Project at Appalachian State University. PM: Could you give me your mother and father's names and your brothers' and sisters' names? EB: Yes, you mean their full names? PM: Their full names, as much as you can. EB: My father was William (inaudible middle name) Holtho zer, and my mother, Laura Ellen Holtho· zer. ~•• t My brothers and sisters suppose I just give you their first names? PM: Fine, that'll be fine. EB: June, Katie, the one you know Peg, Howard, Mary, Eugene, and William Luther. PM: Very good, that's a nice, a nice sized family. Mrs. Burns, we have been talking abo'ut tourism and what it meant to this section of the country, can you tell me when did you go into the tourist business as such? Just tell me as much as you can about what you've done. EB: Well, personally, my time dates from 1929 when I ac- tually got into the tourist business, but, of course, we were affected by the tourist business all of our lives. My father being in store business--merchandise--of course, came in constant contact with the tourists then. We spoke of tourists then as "summer residents",. and "the summer people". That's the way we referred to them, we didn't call them tourists, we just says they're "summer residents" or "summer people". And while there was a difference, we realized that these were �2 people who stood a little above us socially, and financially, and at the same time they accepted us and we accepted them as, really, people of Blowing Rock. There was that feeling of really high opinion of them because they did take an interest in our .•• oh, little everyday things that happened to us here, the local people here in Blowing Rock. that dates way back to my childhood. So, of course, Then there were so few places around that people would take the tourists into their homes. They didn't have a business, but just their private homes, and this brought us in, of course, closer contact and association with the tourist people. But I Slept on the floor many a time in order to give my room to some tourist. At the time I may not have liked it, but it was just a thing that we accepted and did. Then when we went into business-- really what we would say "the tourist business"-- it was no great change, it just seemed like we just opened our home to you the public, and we wasn't thinking of it in terms of making alot of money, but really just of taking care of the people who came to us. time. I think this was a change made in the Then the season, really we opened in May, but we didn't expect a rush business--and when I say "rush", it was rush then, but certainly not like a rush would be today--really didn't start until about the first of July. ~.c.k Then we closed everything--everything in BlowingAclosed--definitely at Labor Day. After that time if you would see a stranger on the street everybody would run out to see this new person on the street, you know, and what he was doing because it was a curiosity to see anybody on the streets after Labor Day. So, �3 that's changed tremendously, you know, from the past. PM: Well, tell me, in your childhood did your father ever talk to you about tourists per se, or "those summer people"? EB: Oh yes! Dad had a mind of his own really, and he was very independent. While he knew, as everyone else knew, that we were dependent on as I said we called them "the summer people" at that time, still Dad was a person that wouldn't let them walk over him at all. I know you've heard of the Cone (spelling?) Estate, and the Cones. Of course, Mister and Missus Cone were living here at the time. My father's store had a basement and many, many times he would go to the basement to maybe measure out potatoes or do work down there and leave the store doors wide open, you kn ow, with noone up there. One time Miz Cone came in and she was a little irritated because there was noone there to wait on her. So, Dad eventually came up from the basement and Mrs. Cone says, "Mr . Holthozer, don't you know somebody could walk off with everything you've got?" He just sort of grinned a little bit and says, "Well Miz Cone, I didn't know you were in town, or I wouldn't have been down there." Of course, there is a lot of humor with it, too, but Dad never let any of them, even though he was a very humble person, and very kind person he still felt his ••• his authority and his own individuality in his relationship to the summer people. I think this love for Blowing Rock and this life in the mountains really, probably we inherited that from Dad because he really loved the mountains~ And I told you that his ambition was to build a place where people of moderate �4 means can come and enjoy the climate and the scenery. PM: He was from where? EB: Rowan County. And he came, I think , because of malaria; bad health conditions, there was alot of mosquitoes at that time so his father moved his family here to avoid that situation. PM: Can you think of any other examples as a child in Blowing Rock of your relationship to the summer people? Perhaps another story like the Cone story? EB: There are so many really pleasant associations with the summer people. They organized then a community club, which consisted of some of the local people and the summer residents, too. And they really did a great, a great work for Blowing Rock. And they had every summer there a carnival in the park. In order to, I think, really to have have better relationships between the local people and the summer people, they drew the local people into jobs in this project that they called the Carnival in the Park. head of it: But they were really the they put it on, and all the money was donated to the community for the library. The reason for us having the x good library that we have now •.• so, I'm not thinking of humourous things now, but really things that were so helpful to the community. PM: You said they probably had the summer festival in order to have better relationships with the peoplecithe area, did you ever sense that people from the area, not necessarily in general, but different ones, resented these people coming here and spending their time during the summer, while they went �5 about their own labors? EB: I don't think there was a resentment, but I do feel like the local people had a tendency to feel a little inferior to the summer residents, because if they were invited into their home socially, we thought we were up in the world. We felt like that was a great honor. So, I'm sure there was a certain amount of class distinction there; that we did think they were a little above us socially, and, of course, we knew they were financially, there was no doubt about that. PM: Did anyone ever tell you that, that gave you that im- pression? Say, when you were in school did any teacher talk to you about this difference? EB: No, no, and I think probably I felt it less--and please don't think I'm saying this egotistically at all--but my family, the Holthozers, were a prominent family then. So, probably we were accepted into ' the homes of the summer residents more than others. But I remember my friends say, "Hmmm, think you're somethin', don't ya?" being invited to any of their social functions. And we really felt like we were getting up in the world when we were invited into their homes. But I don't think this was the feeling among the summer residents, because we had such a high, really high class people as summer residents that you certainly wouldn't associate any class distinctions within their minds, you know, because they were anxious, really for us to come in their homes and be a part of them. You said you were so familiar with Flora McDonald, we had the Bardells, who for years and years were residents of Blowing Rock, summer resi- �6 dents. And then the Cones and the Cannons. These names are familiar to you I'm sure, aren't they? PM: Yes, ma'am. EB: So we had such a .•• and they were church workers, they worked in the church. Dr. Bardell supplied in our church during the summer for years, and years and years. So, to them this was home, and they were really citizens of Blowing Rock from their standpoint, and of course, from our standpoint, too, we accepted them. PM: Were there any feelings at all about the fact that these people were coming to your Blowing Rock to stay for se~eral months? Did you have any real feelings either negatively or positively about that? EB: Not then, not as a child, because we thought it was great when they would start coming back. We looked forward to the time when they were coming back and we'd say, "oh, the lardells are here" , or "the Cannons are here", and it was really something that we'd looked forward to. Now, whether or not we unconsciously were conscious of that fact that our living depended upon them, that everything we had ~e was dependent on this business, that mayAhad something to do with it, though at the time certainly I didn't think about that. And I don't think my father did either, because my brother-in-law was working in the store, my father's store, Missus Cannon came in to buy a rug which was then a fantastic price for a rug, I think around ten thousand dollars. Well, to me that's a big price even yet. of business through catalogues. But Dad did a lot He would keep the catalogues �7 and order for the people from the catalogues. come in to select a rug. So she had I think on a ten thousand dollar rug maybe he would make a profit of maybe ten dollars. By that time people beginning to get more and more financially conscious, you know: make money, make money. But I remember Dad saying why should he take advantage of Miz Cannon just because she had money? It, really, didn't cost him anything but a three-cent sta•p, and he was perfectly happy with his profit of ten dollars. So, the local people then didn't try to take advantage of the people just b ecause they had money. PM: Do you recall ever having any friends, children of the summer people, who you looked forward to seeing come back every year? Any type of relationship like that? EB: That's something I expect would really give you an insight into the tourists, the' type of tourists that Blowing Rock had during that period, early period, because it seemed to be older people who had no children, or people with grown children who maybe wasn't too enticed to be in Blowing Rock, that came, and so really I don't remember people of my own age, like playing with them, or those things. I just don't remember it at all, because it seems that it has been really a place where elderly people came, and retired people, the and notAyounger generation. Even that early there was definitely that because there was really not much for young people to do, and I think they preferred the beaches, you know, and so we just didn't have many young people. And while I haven't thought of it, I really don't remember �having playmates among the summer residents. PM: Approximately what were the years that we've been talking about? EB: Was it 1919? '20? '30? Yes, I expect from 19 and 15, '20, because these were the things that I remember when I was ten maybe twelve years old. PM: Could you tell me when were you born? EB: 19 and 8. PM: 1908. Okay, you gave the example of your father or- dering the ten thousand dollar rug and you mentioned that at that a~ ~s~~ time people weren't that interested in making all that much money, they hadn't quite reached that point, do you have any feeling as to when they began to feel like they needed to make more money on that ten thousand? Using ten thousand just as an example, as a figure, when did people's attitudes begin to change, and maybe you have a feeling as to why it changed? EB: I don't think I could see the change, I can see it maybe not in myself because I don't think my family was ever money-minded too much. a lot of money. Really our aim wasn't money, But I could see the change in maybe public places changing their rates from ••• like they would have seasonal rates, you know, then they certainly had an idea they'd make more money at one time .•• They were money-conscious. I think the fact that they did change their rates during certain periods. Now, of course, the horse show has always been one of the busiest periods during the summer and many of the places would up their rates due to the fact they �9 knew they were going to have a lot of people , there was no doubt about it, and they would get as much money as possible. And to me that's taking advantage of people. And so you see, this yen for money certainly growing all the time. PM: Did your father ever speak or talk about the jump in prices? EB: Were they going on when he was running his business? I never heard him talk about whether he would make a big profit or a little profit. fair-minded man. He was reall y such an honest, He said "a fair profit", and while he was a good business man, from this standpoint my brother when he worked in the store, Dad would caution him: "Now, you give absolutely accurate measure. Don't you give a bit over, or don't you give a bit under." This was honest, and while he wouldn't give an ounce he didn't take an ounce from the other person either. And he definitely felt an over-charge was not a fair profit. PM: Can you thi nk of any particular saying, or any particular principle that your father taught your brothers and sisters? Well, sometimes we've been told certain a saying like "a penny saved is a penny earned•, do you recall any of those sayings that stuck with you? EB: We were certainly brought up with this: Dad was con- stantly telling us never to buy anything you couldn't pay for. You're aware of the credit cards and all of this, we was brought up on that:"Don't buy anything unless you can pay for it." And we didn't, and this influenced me all my life, and really now I just never buy anything on credit, as popular as it is to do that. In fact, the salesmen at �10 the Inn would get thoroughly disgusted with me because I insisted upon paying for everything as it was delivered to me. Credit companies would not take my name as a reference because I never gone in debt on anything. But that was really the outstanding thing that I remember my dad teaching all of us, and certainly it has paid off in the long run. PM: Well now, let's get to about 1929 and just tell me a- bout how you got ••• What you were doing in 1929 and the business that you got into. EB: (bo; I+) · It was during the Depression and my father had filled the place. I think a fulfillment of hopes, thinking of it as it was when he came in: you never dreamed it could be operated as a public place because it had none of the conveniences of a tourist place. But my husband and I came up not long after the place was completed, and we just went in and started cooking, really, like we did at home. So, we gained the experience as we went along. PM: Your father built ••. What did he build in1929? EB: The Sunshine Inn. PM: The Sunshine Inn. And what was his reason for building the Inn? EB: In order that people--and he really had this on his heart, I think--that people could come to Blowing Rock and enjoy it without having to pay such fabulous prices. And for that reason all through the years we kept our prices down when they were going up all around us and people said, "Why don't you go up? You have to." I think knowing Dad's dream of that kept me from going up on prices all through �11 the years. PM: Now, how did you get into the business of the Sunshine Inn itself? Was there anything happening in 1929 that got you back here? EB: The Depression. My husband was laid off, he was working at the Southern Bell, and he was laid off. out work: we had to do something. So, we were with- And like I said, we knew nothing about this but it was something to hold on to and we were thankful that it happened just at the .time that Dad needed someone to operate this Inn. And while we were ig- norant at it, the tourist people then were not very choosey. I mean, they accepted things as they were, and if things were not convenient, if we had just one public bathroom, if everyone ate at the one long table, they accepted that and thoroughly enjoyed it. PM: Describe what the Inn was like in 1929 and how you actually operated it around 1929 . EB: Well, we added to it later, but from the beginning I think we had a fairly large kitchen with just a home range and we cooked on a coal stove. The pipe was constantly getting clogged up with soot and we'd have to take it down, clean it out every week. But we had no cabinets. I think groceries and things probably we just shoved under the table, I don't remember. But we certainly had none of the cabinet space, and the storage space, that you would think of that a hotel or inn might have. room. We had about eight bedrooms, one bath- One bathroom • • Everybody used the bathroom, bathroom. that one And the dining room, we had one long table and �12 everybody sat at this table. Really, it was just like one big family because they seemed to enjoy this type of .•• We didn't have a menu. We would carry the food and put it on the table whether they liked it or not, but they really seemed to like it, and people would comment how nice it was just to have the food served and not have to be bothered deciding for themselves from a menu what they wanted to eat. And the people just really seemed to enjoy the simple things. And I feel confident about this that while we may not have a had.Avery expensive and exclusive hotel, we had people prefer to stay with us rather than go to Mayview Manor. (Begin Side Two) PM: We were talking about the Sunshine Inn that your father built in 1929 and you just described the Inn. Can you des- cribe some of the people that came to see you? Tell us something about some of those people. EB: Well, when they came of course, they were perfect strangers, but they didn't stay strangers long . hecause in no time they were just part of the family and accepted us as the family. Now, we had cooks, the colored couple, that cooked for us for thirty years, and we had at that time a local girl, two, we only used two then, as waitresses. They girls not only wait on the tables, but they helped with all the cleaning up the rooms, you know. thought of using canned food. Of course, then we never We peeled our own potatoes, and we peeled our apples, we made our cakes, our ice cream, we killed and dressed the chickens, and the girls even helped with those things. And I paid them five dollars a week. �13 Five dollars, and they gladly did all this extra work. They changed there later. I remember one girl who ••• This was years later, but to see the changes that went about, we gradually had about ten waitresses and maybe by that time we were using busboys, too, or at least one busboy. But this young girl, waitress, and I think probably she was the- only one that was not a local girl that worked for me during all the years--but she decided their work was too hard and she thought I should hire a helper for every waitress. That is, this extra girl would carry the food in and place it on the table, and thereafter the waitress had gotten their drinks and the meal was finished, then her helper would clear the table and reset the table. Really, what it amounted to, the girl was picking up the tips and not doing the work. That was just one unusual waitress that I had and she didn •t stay with us long, because most of the girls stayed year, after · year, after year, and they, too, became part of the family. PM: Now, how long did a guest stay at the Inn when they came to stay? EB: Oh, they came probably the first of July and they stay July and August until we closed it Labor Day. PM: And back in 1929, around that period, what would it cost someone to stay at the Inn? EB: Around fifteen dollars a week, including three meals a day, and let me explain "three meals a day." Breakfast was big, they would eat a huge breakfast; then we didn't say "lunch", we said "dinner" in the middle of the day and that �14 consisted maybe of a meat and seven, or eight, or nine vegetables, and a salad and dessert. And the~e thing was what we called "supper", only it wasn't dinner it was "supper." We would serve maybe two meats and maybe as many as nine vegetables. I was holding up we always did. the I remember I used to count to be sure standard and having as many things as Usually about nine, including the fruits and vegetables, you know. three meals a day. And the people ate consistently I think invariably they gained weight during the summer, but they enjoyed it, so that was all right. PM: What would these people do for two months while they were staying here at Blowing Rock? EB: There was no entertainment of any kind at Blowing Rock, no attractions, no movies, no auctions, nothing they could do at the inn except for getting out and walking and taking hikes. If the weather was bad they stayed at home and sat around and talked to each other, or else if they became restless and wanted a little more activity they would get in the dining room and play games, and even move back the chairs and dance, just entertain themselves. PM: So the guests would entertain themselves, and would mingle and mix with all the other guests? EB: Oh yes, oh yes, and I think we were really so fortunate in having this type people who did enjoy other people, and it wasn't long until at the end of the season when they would begin to leave and go back home, they would say to each other, "See you next summer," and next summer they �15 would see each other because they looked forward to coming back with the same crowd that they had enjoyed the summer before. PM: So, we had the same people year after year, after . year. What would happen during the non-season after you closed at Labor Day? What all happened around the Sunshine Inn? EB: We just hibernated practically. we looked forward to that; In a way, of course, as much as we enjoyed the tour- ists we did look forward to everything being quiet and not having to work so hard. Really, though, you may not think pf it as a year-round job, but it was~ because we're do-it- yourself people and we did our own work. We'd start painting rooms, or doing repair work, or things that we ~ould do during the period that we were closed that we couldn't do during the summer. So really, it was more or less a year- round job. PM: What happened to your waitresses .and help? What would they do during the winter? EB: The girls were usually high school girls, so, of course, they in school during the winter. Our cooks had a little home down off the mountain and they did what everybody else did, we ..• Somehow or another, I never knew, but we managed to make enough money in the summer to survive the winter, so our cooks, the old colored couple, would just rest up during the winter. PM: Now, where would they stay during the summer? EB: We had a room right back of the kitchen and that was Maggie and John's room. �16 PM: Maggie and John, what was their last name? EB: Jones. PM: And they stayed with you throughout EB: Throughout the summer, yes. summer? They had their own room: just real convenient, just open the kitchen door and go right into their room. While I'm sure at first they must not have had their own bathroom, eventually we did add their own bathroom and also another room for additional help. So, we grew, and, of course, then we did everything on our own. The government--the state, the county, the town--didn't bother us. They could have cared less how we run and operated, and run our business, and we were entirely on our own. We didn't have to bother . with Social Security, sales tax, privileges, licenses, unemployment tax, which we did have to bother with later. And, of course, then, the health department was beginning to take an interest in the public eating places, and establishments, so we had eventually to change to their standards. They were very lenient with us, I think they were with the older places, but we certainly had to make certain changes and adjustments and probably that's the reason we put in more bathrooms, and changed equipment in the kitchen to meet the standards of the health department. PM: Do you recall how much Mister and Missus Jones were paid when they were working for you? EB: Did they start in1929? Yes, and I paid them together, as a husband and wife. They were a team so I paid them twenty five dollars a week in addition to their meals and their room, which they thought was great, and r~ I thought it was pretty good myself really to have paid them that much. But before they left I think I was paying them �17 instead of the combined salary of twenty-five dollars a week, anywhere from eighty to a hundred dollars each a week: that's how much things changed during that period. PM: What do you recall about Mister Jones and Missus Jones as they worked around the Sunshine Inn? EB: Oh, they were just so loyal to the business. In fact, they were just as concerned and interested in the business as we were, and certainly so conscientious about their work. to do and they felt responsible for that job. the cooking. They had a job It just wasn't Every morning John would go in and light the stove and while the stove was heating up he would go out and sweep all the walkways in the front, and the front porch. They seemed to take it for granted this was their job, and they did it. And if you happened to help them out, or to do some of their job, they resented it, because they felt like, ''Well, I'm not living to my bargain to do this job," and they really resented it. And they felt a concern if business wasn't good, in fact, they hesitated to take their money if we wasn't doing a good business. They said, "You haven't made this, so I hate to take the money that I know is hard for you to pay." But this was their attitude toward us and toward the business, too. PM: Did you ever have to discipline any of your employees, not only Mister and Missus Jones, but any of the other employees? How would you all settle the problems? EB: I think just like a family. If the girls 9ave us any pro- blems, I always hesitated on pointing out a girl in something that she had done that was not quite what we wanted her . to do, but I don't think I was ever cut out to be a boss. Even though �18 I felt they needed corrections, I was very hes·d .tant to correct them. I would sort of beat around the bush, you know, and call all the girls together for a"family conference", and we would sit down and somehow or other I would work around to this thing that had bothered me and not point out that "You're the guilty one," but it was something that had to be adjusted. So we had no hard feelings then between our relationship and the same way with John and Maggie. Invariably people are going to make mis- takes--sometimes burn up something, or burn some food--Maggie would be so distressed about this. She'd say, "Missus Burns, if I were in your place I wouldn 't put up with me. fire me." I would But then I had that feeling of closeness to Maggie, I would say, "Maggie, if I never made a boo-boo myself then I might fire you, but as long as I make them myself then I can't condemn you for making them." we had with our help. That was the relationship that In fact, I never says, "You work for me. You work with me." PM: Is that what you would say? EB: Oh y.es, and that really works. You get more loyalty from your help, and more work, really. PM: Did you work just as hard as they did? EB: Oh yes! I nev.er would ask them to do anything I wouldn't do myself, and I can't think of a single thing that I didn't do sometime or other: from a-waiting tables, cooking meals, washing dishes, and cleaning rooms. I went into every, every bit of it. It didn't bother me. PM: And was your husband doing the same thing? EB: Oh yes, oh yes. PM: Did he ever wash a dish? �19 EB: At the beginning of the season and in order to cut down on things financially while things were slow, he was the dishwasher. He .was the dishwasher. And I was the maid. Here such a good relationship existed between our guests and us, that while I did all of the maid work ... And we had a lot of fun with it because I'd knock on the door and say, "This is Mary the maid, may I come in?" Invariably they'd open the door and say, "Well, you don't have to bother our room, we've already made up our beds and straightened up our rooms, so there's nothing to do." maid work got easier and easier. So, my That's the type of people we had; that they really looked after themselves. PM: They'd continue to come back over the years? EB: Oh, year, after year, after year, after year. PM: Now, what was the shortest time, do you recall, right at the very beginning that people would stay at the inn? EB: Oh, people just never came for any less than two weeks. just didn't have any overnight guests. We If we were thinking from a financial standpoint that would have been great because you had to change sheets constantly, you had to clean rooms constantly, and really, it was good for us to have people come and stay for a long period of time, both from the work standpoint and from a financial standpoint. To see how people liked the simple things and the simple way of life, and the plain food and everything, it came to me from a man that we had .•. Of course, alot of people wrote in for reservations! they were coming to. They had no idea what kind of place But we had a Mister Dillon from Florida who, I think was awfully disappointed when he came in. He evidently was pretty wealthy, and he had written to us for a reservation, and we �20 had confirmed his reservation. His son brought him up, he didn't drive, he was rather an elderly man, and I sensed the minute he came in that he was disappointed, that he expected a little more elaborate accomodations, you know. Also, his son was, I think, at first skeptical. But it was a little late so they spent the night. But the next morning, and this he told me later, "We went over to Mayview Manor and looked around, and, r• he says, "we both had a feeling that Sunshine Inn wasn't quite up to what we thought it was going to be, so we went to Mayview Manor." But the man didn't drive, and he told his son, "Since I don't, I'll just go on and stay down at Sunshine for a few days anyway." So, it wasn't but. about two or three days until he was just the happiest old man. He said the simplicity had really been great for him, and the friendship, because we had a lot--I guess we'd say--"old maids" who were delighted in entertaining this old widower. His wife had died just a month or two before and he was really depressed, but he came out of it and thoroughly enjoyed it. And he told me later that he wouldn't stay anyplace else for anything in the world and he came back as long as we were in business, every summer. PM: How long did he come? Do you recall? EB: I believe about twelve years. And that was the nice part about our business because we kept having the same people over, and over, and over. And they seemed to fit in perfectly. Of course, everybody· has a few instances when things are not too pleasant. PM: Can you give me an idea of some of those unpleasant things? EB: Well, we had one family come in, and I say this through no reflection of the Jewish people, but they were Jewish and they �21 asked to see the rooms and they were very, very critical. And they were not at all friendly to the other guests, which horrified me. They had accepted the rooms, though and were going to stay, but I just had a feeling I don't know whether this is going to work out too well or not. So, I said to him as we went to the door, "I don't believe you're going to like it here. I just don't think you're going to like it here at all." I says, "We have the nicest, friendliest people, most congenial guests in the world, and I just don't believe you'll like it." So, that was one instance where .•• It just didn't happen often because it seemed like we were unusually fortunate in having the cream of the crop. PM: Can you recall any other unhappy--we don't like to think of all the unhappiness, but I think it kind of gives a balance, we do have those times when it's not happy. EB: Oh yes, I know we have to face them because they do exist, and too, I think it shows not always when there's criticism, and it has taught me certainly to be very lenient and understanding of eating places where things might happen that you certainly don't want to happen. Oh, we were just swamped! But we were so rushed one night. And I think really that I was aware, but not entirely aware because I was in the kitchen, and this family sat in the dining room and evidently didn't get but a few of the thing$that we served for our evening meal. I was rushing between the kitchen and the cash register and I went out with a big smile, you know, expecting him to say he had enjoyed the meal, which I had grown accustomed to. let me have it. But boy! he He said I ought to be ashamed of myself for �22 cheating the public like that. And he was really, really in- dignant about it. And my feathers fell just like that, but it was due to the rush and the girls just didn't get around to serving him, and serving him all the food we had and he was too impatient to wait for the food. Those things happen at every place, I'm sure of that, too. But I think about the funniest thing that happened: s~aying A couple came in to eat, they were not in the house, but they just came in to meals, and they had been coming in for several days and on the morning they · were leaving they came in for breakfast. Very nice, and had really complimented the meals everytime they'd eaten there. On that morning, though, that they were leaving they came in and ate cantiloupe, and they ate oatmeal, and we served as an order, too, eggs and two slices of bacon, or sausage, they ate that with toast. Then they ate hot cakes, then they ate French toast, then they ordered another order of eggs. Now, we never hesitated to give people everything they ordered because we advertised all they can eat, and all you want, for the same price. So, they ordered the second order of eggs and when the girl took it in they started fussing. suit them. The eggs were not fixed to They were either too soft or too hard. Well, she took that order of eggs back and got another order and she brought those and they just wouldn't do at all. worst tasting eggs they ever saw. times. They were the She took those back. Three Really, the people at the table next to them said it was just really terrible the way they talked to the girl in their criticism of the food. Of course, everybody knew they'd eaten so much nothing could taste good to them at that stage. The �23 girl finally sent for me to come in and talk to them myself, so I went in and I said, "Really, we'd do everything we could to please them and get their order straight, but if they were not happy with it then we · money." certainly would not take their So, they ended up by not paying for their breakfast. I think that was the point all the time. But you run into that, invariably you have a few who are very critical, and impatient, but we certainly were fortunate in having very, very few through the years. PM: What was the relationship that Mister and Missus Jones had to your guests? Did anything happen that would kind of give us an idea of what that relationship was as far as segregation goes? EB: Oh, Certainly Maggie and John had no thought of associat- ing with our guests. They would have hated that more than our guests would have resented it because the guests would come into the kitchen and talk with Maggie and John and compliment them on their cooking abilities, but Maggie and John would never, in any way, take advantage of what they thought their place was then. As colored people they felt like they had a place and they stayed in it, even to the extent that if we who felt as close to them as anyone could possibly feel, like they were part of our family, but they, in their humility, if we'd sit down at the table while they were eating they'd put their plates in their laps. PM: They'd still sit there and eat? EB: Sit there there yes, but not with their plate on the table. Now that I don't know whether it was just part of their humility �24 or if they felt the difference in the color, or why they did that I don't know. But to me it was significant of the ••• being the difference between the black and the white, as it was considered back during those days . PM: What about the relationship with their children and your children? They did have one son? (Begin Tape #2, side one) PM: We were talking about the Jones' nephew who lived with them and just the relationship that the nephew had with your own children as he was growing up. EB: It was just like brothers, especially my younger son, and believe it or not his name was Sweet. We called him Sweet. They had no ••. no consciousness that one was black and one was white. They could see no reason why they couldn't eat together, they couldn't sleep together, they couldn't take trips together. They saw no reason at all why they couldn't associate just as brothers. And they did, really. But at one point where they wanted to go off on a trip and spend the night to a ballgame, Maggie, bless her heart, she was just the greatest, she took Sweet aside and said, "Sweet , you just can't do do this. just don't do this." You She says, "Colored people just don't go off with white people like that," she says, "You just can't do it." And the same thing she told him when Ronnie wanted to spend the night in Sweet's room, "No, that just won't do. You're black and he's white and that won't do." But Maggie accepted it as such. PM: Did Maggie ever make any statements as to how she felt a- bout being segregated? �25 EB: Just one or two times. Not so much on segregation, the difference between the black and the white, as people not associating together, even the whites with the whites, which seemed down through the years people became more and more, I guess the word's selfish, they wanted to be by themselves. So, if there was any problem with that someone sitting with anyone else at a table, she couldn't understand that. wonder She just would what they would do when they got to Heaven. But and too of course, I heard her then so many times say that the nurses of the families that had Negro mamies to look after their children and they, too, seemed to have such a close relationship and Maggie would remark that she just couldn't understand how that relationship could be so close and yet be such a difference in their social standing, and in their opportunities. So she did feel it to a certain extent. PM: What about her husband, did you ever have any feelings that he felt that way? EB: John, he was I think maybe just really afraid to say any- thing along this line. Now John told me this, I don't know I that it's true, but way back when my father was building the ~ store and they were making brick to buildAstore, John says he helped, came up from his little place down there and helped make that brick, and he said there was such a feeling even then between the blacks and whites that he was afraid to stay up here, and that there were times when they had gotten stoned, I mean had rocks thrown at them, you know. So, John seemed to have a fear there of ever expressing his own opinion. back from that period. Maybe it dated �26 PM: Well, tell me about your attitude about business. did you approach making · money as such? Let~s How put it this way: how did you keep books, and how did you determine the prices that you were going to charge? EB: Well, to begin with, we didn't keep any books. Like I said, it was our own business so if we made some money all right and if we didn't then that was our bad luck, too. But as far as bookkeeping, we just didn't keep any books, or we didn't have a cash register. Then, of course though, as we bought wholesale I was conscious of prices in terms o.f the menus that we were serving. For instance, I knew that for two dollars we could not serve T-bone steaks, and I was conscious of the fact that certainly while country ham was one of our main attractions, especially on Sunday ·morning, the time came when we could not serve country ham at seventy-five cents for breakfast, you see. And I was conscious of prices from that respect, but during all those years I don't think I ever sat down and figured actually how much a meal would cost me and if we took in enough money to take care of the cost of the meal that I had served . PM: Well, how would you price breakfast, for example? What would go through your mind when you would finally say that this breakfast is going to cost seventy-five cen~, or a dollar, or however much it cost? EB: I guess really through, from experience. I thought,"Well, we're not going to lose money on this breakfast, we may not make any, but we're not going to lose money on this breakfast." I guess I thought more of volume that anything else, because if we had enough people then we'd take in more money and that would take care of the cost of the meal. As for actually sitting down �27 and estimating the price of the meal and our profit, later, of course, all bf the salesmen began to push portions, well , you know, "a portion of meat will cost you so much," but I'd get real irritated with them and said, "Well, I'm not concerned in portions," because our meals, , meats, were put on platters and we'd put enough portions on that until we had no doubt. We just didn't want.' to run out,so portions didn't mean a thing to me. And it was hard, really, to estimate the price of maybe a twenty-five, thirty pound roast in regard to portions because some people ate so much more than others. we couldn't count on that, you know. The way we served We'd let people have as much as they wanted• PM: Why do you suspect that the salesmen were pushing portions, and encouraging you to go by the portion route? EB: Profits. To really give us a bigger profit, I think. Then I would know just exactly how much my meat was costing me. that was the big item of course, the meat, it ~s Well now; it was then. So, I guess really, the way I estimated . was I paid a hundred dollars for the meat for a meal. Well, we'll serve maybe a hun- dred and fifty people, so I guess that's the way I really judged whether or not we were going to lose money or make money. Be- cause we could estimate then on the people we were going to serve. If this amount of meat will serve that many people, then I'm not going to lose money or I'm going to make money. PM: When you say I'm going to make money, would you say twenty per cent, or fifty per cent? Were you trying to just make a little money, or a lot of money, or break even? EB: We were trying to make a living, that was about it and �28 really we were pretty well satisfied with the living because we felt like if we made enough during the summer to live on during the winter we were doing pretty well. PM: When you say "to make enough to live on," do you mean enough to buy your own food, to buy your own fuel and have a little spending money throughout the winter? EB: Yes, and we thought we were doing pretty well to do that. And when you think about it, that's pretty good to work those months in the summer and ·then loaf the rest of the time, although we really didn't loaf. wouldn't rou That you can say is pretty good, say, really? PM: I feel good about it. EB: We didn't have money in the bank. In fact, I don't think really either of us thought about how much money we were making, we just took it as it came. If we made some money, okay, if we didn't,okay. PM: Did you save money over the years? EB: Yes, at the end of the season I sort of estimated how much would it take for us to get through the winter and if we had it on deposit and if I felt like we could afford a hundred or two dollars I'd put1in Watauga Savings and Loan, and it's amazing if you put it there and forget about it what it can do. That's part of my living today I'll tell you. PM: Well, can you tell me how has the tourist business changed over the years and when did you retire, 19 .•• ? EB: About five years ago. PM: That was 1969? EB: Sixty-nine. �29 PM: From 1929 to 1969, that's forty years, how did the business change? EB: The good and the bad? Well, I think the biggest change was the transits people that came in, people who were on the go. We had alot more over- night guests than we had back in the old days. And then in the contentment--I guess contentment's a good word--people were so content with the simple things, I mean not much entertainment, they didn't have to be entertained. But as years went on, it seems that that was the main thing they looked for in a tourist town was all the attractions, the recreation facilities, and the entertainment. this line?" "Well, what have you got to offer along So, that definitely was the biggest change, the restlessness of the people and their demands for entertainment and recreation facilities, which was unheard of in the earlier days. PM: You know, this area has certainly changed in those ways and they offer people quite a few things I think to do. you see that as positive? EB: Do Is that good or is that bad? Why certainly, it's helped the tourist business, there's no doubt about that. Whereas I would say it has doubled, the tourist business, over doubled since we first started. And I expect it's certainly due to these attractions that have come in: Land of Oz and Tweetsie. We still, if we want to progress as a tourist town, have a long way to go in attractions for the young people. Of course, from years back we had horseback rid- ing and hiking, those were things put on the brochures about Blowing Rock, but the young people don't care for that now. They want actual entertainment, some kind of amusement, and we've �30 cJI'"& got a long way yet to entice the young people in. And we Astill sort of a retired, older people's tourist town. PM: Can you recall any particular effort you were involved in getting more and more people to come here, maybe through the Chamber of Commerce, or •.. ? EB: We contributed to the Chamber of Commerce, but I don't think I was very cooperative in the advertising. Their ways of advertising to me, they would put all the posters, and do all the advertising in other states and along the highways. Then people would come here but be disappointed becau"'e they didn 't have the recreatio be they had expected . faciliti es or attra ctions that may- It was the same way at the Inn. very little advertising. Just in this past summer you see a great big s ign, "Sunshine Inn", dmm here. new. Well, really, that's That's new, \'e didn't have anything like that. like rather than We did I felt spend money putting out signs and advertising, if I could put that mane place more attractive for into something that would make my the people who came there, to me that would be a bigger advantage than all the signs that I could put out on the hig ways , because then tho se people were happy and satisfied and they would go and tell others, and to me that's the best way to advertis • And I felt like this as the same with Blow-i ng Rock, though certainly we cooperated with the Chamber of Commerce and all the projects that the town et forth as the aim to bring in more touri s t trade. PM: Your Sunshine Inn was a family-owned, run, operation, there were other attractions or homes t hat were not family-owned, could you tell a difference between the family-owned and the operations �31 that were not family-owned, in the way they wer EB: operated? Yes , yes , the people who-- I hope I ' m not s ying something that sometime later anybody might resent--but this certainly is refle cted on the local people a d their attitud e toward business . Because i r ecent years we have gotten so many , es- pecially from Florida , m .n or people who have come in and ought motels , or have go e into businese here. They seem purely t think of it fr o "We a financial and this is our aim, a n tandpoint: ant to make mo ey , r gardle "' s we 're going to ma ke mo ey." The local people, when it' s a local person, he doesn ' t have that attitude at all . It ' s more th inst ad of making tation . i te e t of the entire town , and alot of money , j u t have a good repu- So that local feeling toward bu ines~ how s I thi k in all the places , the e s tablis ments , that we have now . PM: Are there 1 any establi shment s r n , or different o~med by people fro or different state· , owned by them area~ have them op rat by s omebody el~e? nd th n they Do you know of many like that nO\<V ? EB: Do you mean that th PM: Rig t . EB: Yes . lo aJ people have sold out t o? It' s happening more and more an very, v ery few, eve local people . rig t now there s the motelR that are -""d and People fr o oth r se ction s o ght th em , and operat e them. f p erated by t he countr h v come in nd It ' s dist re ssing t me that o mariy of the busi e s e s and the shops up the street , 0 all of them are going out of the hand s of local people. PM: Is there any particular r aso that loc al people ar busines 0 for it other than the f ct ju . . t getting 'tired of their and selling to .hoever com s in? OvJri particular �32 Well , EB: y s and I '"' .r . talkine; about it t is morning i ur f eel ing toward the tourists and them taking the b sinesses in Blowing Rock. He says it ' not that feeling of" res tment, b t it's the feeling that the e people can have money , mo tly retired p ople , a a f ford. 1~0 can afford alot more tha the local peopl e And thy will offer maybe such a f nt f r a buf'i es s , t at th lo a J peopl for that pri ce , and they ' ve got the oney to do it. O\I But this And this is what rese ts becauce he and his wife c:ir- e li ing i apart el'.1t ric will certainly sell it has re ulted in real e tate going out of sight. my so t ic a litt r h re now of min, and they 1ould like v ry much t o hav . ah me, yet he s ayc all th ese p eople with so much money come in her an pay such fanta tic prices for thing no chance in the world he can have a home, real no~ there's at the price of state. PM: You didn't sense th·s back when you were a young girl? RB: No , oh no ! PM: Prices weren ' t being pushed up? EB: No , no and certainly local people o n d and operat ed m s t of the busi e s es, if not all of them back then, I expect th id. r M: Do they operate them with the same philosophy that you did of having a good busines caring about maki g EB: You know, I t i and a good reputatio lot of money? I can say tru.thfully that i of the local people becau e I think of now the and the inn right above us, th t e attitu e Marti Hol:.... , Green Inn, it seemed that they really enjoy d operati g their pla e in, not wit v..itl cut really and having the tourist the idea of making alot of money. come I r ally belie e �33 t hat wa the att i tude of most of t e l ocal people . Back then especiall y. PM: One th "ng I j st wanted to hit on , you ' v e already t al ked a bout it, can you r e call any of those game people played , in your pa rlor I guesc , when t hey came in as tourist s , a s summer peopl e ? EB : There ' s one they ca ll ed " Pi g" and I cannot r e e ber t he details of t he game , but I remember it wa s ver y hilar ious and evident l y t he pi g woul d put h i s f inger by th e s ide of hi s nose and t hen t here wa s a l ot of holl ering and whooping. On e t ine we had a senator, v·e ry eld erly, ret ired s enator there with hi s wife , and his health wasn't good and he had a nurse the r e with him . All of t he guests were in the dining room playing Pig, and of course, there were other games we played as children that you wouldn't think that they would enjoy, but they thoroughly enjoyed. You know Post Office and all this, they tho- roughly enjoyed it. But one night I think everybody was es- pecially having fun, it was sort of noisy you know, laughing and talking, and this old senator had a room on the same floor as the dining room and he was a rather dignified person anyway, ~( 'ffil ; ~ and suddenlyAin the room got quiet, just quiet as could be, nobody made a noise, we looked up and in the dining room door stood this old man in knees. his night shirt that just came to his And he was a little withered up sort of man anyway. He looked like something out of a story book standing there in the dining room door, but he was just as stern, he wanted to know what was going on in there, that his sleep was being disturbed. He went back to his room, but the next morning he came �34 to me, "Miz Burns, you weren't in there last night in all that noise, were you?" I sort of hung my head and said, "Well, I was in there." PM: What did he say about that? Did he ask you not to do it again? EB: No, no he didn't. but he soon got over it. Evidently he was irritated at the time, They had been used to a little more formality than we were able to offer at the Inn. bit His son, too was a political figure, so they were looking for him to come up and they wanted us to put on just a little extra, you know, when he got there. So, I had agreed with his wife that I would put bread and butter plates on, you know, and really put on a little bit, spread it on for him. It happened that he came in right while they were eating the noon meal and they were ready for the noon meal so instead of all that formality nothing could have been w0rse because we just took two tables and shoved them 811 together withAthe informality. It had no dignity to it at all. But he was perfectly happy. PM: What was the music that they liked? Was it local people coming in performing for them, playing the instruments that they play, or phonograph, or record player, or did they have any music when they played these games, or when they entertained themselves? EB: No, we just didn't have any music. If ever anybody wanted to tap their foot and clap they did it, but not any real music. I think that was one thing that we ••• Down through the years when you walked into a dining room you expected to hear music of some kind, the soft music you know, we never used it. Just the last �35 few years my husband got interested in intercom and he rigged up something where we could have it, but the reaction we had to that was certainly not good, because any number of people said, "Oh, why did you put in that music?" because one thing they enjoyed about coming there was the quietness and peacefulness, you know, and that they didn't have to listen to all this music. And so that was sort of symbolic to me, too, of what people, of what they enjoyed. You know , I wonder some- times if it's good to people to have all this music and noise while they're eating? PM: Do you recall from 1929 on when people began to change, and didn't play the parlor games and entertain themselves? EB: Just about the time, now, I don't remember dates, I don't know how many years it's been that the auctions came in. Of course, then, people begain instead of staying home in the evening and sitting around talking or singing--they sang, but no musical instruments--they would go to the auctions. And before we retired the house had been entirely empty, as quiet as a mouse after dinner. Everybody'd be gone to the auctions, or a movie, or up on the street window shopping, or off to see some kind of entertainment. PM: As time went on and you were in business, you said at the beginning you really didn't have to worry about the government, the town, the state, as far as running your business, how did that change over a period of time in terms of your relationship to the work, what you EB: ha~e to do? I just don't remember how long we operated without, shall I say , "interference" from the government or the state, that �36 certainly it was over a good many years. And I think maybe the first thing came the privilege license that we had to pay to operate and that we had to pay for every chair that we had in the ~ining room. This came as a privilege license from the state, and then later from the town, too, we had to pay the license from the town. (Begin Side Two) PM: We were talking about the different licenses and the af- feet the government had on business ..• EB: Like I said, I can't remember exactly when it started, but I do remember that gradually these men began to come in and ask ahouf questionsAyour business, and if you were doing so-and-so, and if you were ... Really, it seems to me like when the sales tax started, that thing;tbegan to get complicated then because they were constantly checking. They were doing their jobs, but at the same time taking alot of our time and alot of our money, too. For many years, what we made was ours, we had no taxes of any kind, but then before we closed ther~ocial Security, s~l<S there waSAtax, there was withholding tax--that I resented more than any other tax--there was withholding tax, unemployment compensation, that's the one I mentioned, though. You know the expression, it took a Philadelphia lawyer to keep books after that because these reports had to go in. And not only were these taxes put on us, but they told us exactly how to run our business, too. Now, this was true. They told us how many we could hire, how long they could work, under what conditions they could work, they could work so many hours and that's hard when you're not working by the hour as you don't in the �37 tourist business. And at what age you could hire someone. Really, I guess if I would say I was thankful to be out of it that was the reason because of the things that were involved in a small business like that. lie PM: Come 1969, you were glad toAgetting out of the business? EB: From that standpoint, yes. For sentimental reasons, and certainly tradition, made me very sad to . leave i~. And I think the fact that we had been there forty years, that we'd build, and it wasn't just that that I hated it, too, because we'd left so many disappointed people. These people that had been coming to us for years and years and counted on spending their vacation with us, they were without a place to stay because you know it's hard to accept a new operator after being used to one for forty years. You know, no matter how well they do, your old people are going to find something that's wrong. So, about their management, I not only felt hurt in a way for my ownself, but to think that I had let these people down, which I was getting really to the point where I had no choice. We had been in business long enough and we were giving out under it. But you feel, "Oh, they're going to be so disappointed this summer when they come back." PM: Is there any one particular family, or couple, or single person, that you recall came back more than anybody else did? EB: Well, we had any number of people who came as long as ten, twelve years every summer, but I suppose that one that really stands out is Mister and Missus Butler. He was a busi- ness manager at Elon College and he and his wife spent their honeymoon with us when they were married, then they never missed a summer, until we went out of business and then by that �38 time they had a daughter, I believe about twelve, fifteen years old. . PM: Well, I've certainly enjoyed talking to you and hope you've enjoyed it. EB: I've thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm afraid I haven't been much help. (The End) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Morgan, Pat Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Burns, Ethel Interview Date 1/5/1975 Location The location of the interview. Blowing Rock, NC Number of pages 43 pages Date digitized 9/22/2014 File size 27.4MB Checksum alphanumeric code 26038cec110dad3b109b51bc825c7ab7 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape353_EthelBurns_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ethel Burns [January 5, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morgan, Pat Burns, Ethel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Burn, Ethel Description An account of the resource Ethel Burns grew up and eventually took over the Sunshine Inn, an establishment that housed "the summer people" or the upper-class tourists who came to Blowing Rock over the summer for vacation. They housed them and provided three meals a day for fifteen dollars a week. She recalls that everyone felt a sort of reverence for the summer people but her father "still felt his authority and his own individuality in his relationship to them." The tourists didn't have much to do in Blowing Rock in those days, only hiking and walking and spending time with the other residents. bed and breakfast Blowing Rock Chamber of Commerce community club Ethel Burns Great Depression Land of Oz Rowan County segregation summer festival summer residents The Sunshine Inn tourist business Tweetsie https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/54f49ddb7e5ecd45c18a3e2dc4ba0070.pdf f3b4041f802c42f0c93a95331d1353bc PDF Text Text This is an interview with Mr . Hal Eaton , February 19 , 1976 . is Jane Effird with Mike Evans through the Appalachian Oral History Project . This Q. We want to talk to you about the Virginia part in the New River fight , and what you ' ve had to do with it . A. Yes . Uh , well , I ' ve been a resident here for four and a half years . And when I came here I knew nothing about pump storage and had never heard of the Blue Ridge Project . And when I came they said there was a possibility that dams were going to be built and uh , my first reaction was uh , as pastor of the church , it wasn ' t a moral issue , not something you talk about right or wrong, but then I gradually came to realize that , of our church membership uh all but one family would have to be relocated by· the Appalachian Power Company if the dams became a reality . Uh , the few families who would be living in areas that would be uneffected by the dam would be separated from the church by miles of water . So uh I got more and more . involved and learned more and more about what the proposals were . Uh , I found that uh the state of Virginia, at least at the higher levels of government had proved and worked with the APC in the task of uh , making preparations to build the dams and then uh I found out that North Carolina was gradually going the other way until finally uh there was very strong feelings in North Carolina against the building of the Blue Ridge Project. Uh , I have corresponded with the governor uh and gotten one letter in which he uh, uh said in effect that there were alot of people in Virginia in favor of the Blue Ridge Project . I presume he ' s talking about the people that he goes to cocktail parties with . Uh, APC and other politicians . The uh , in the state the thirteen congressional representatives uh, theoretically at first were all in favor of the Blue Ridge Project , but those who began to look into it , who asked for information about it , who request attitudes from the local people about it, uh are apt to switch their allegiance . Congressman Whitehurst has gone all the way the other way. He ' s from down the other end of the state , but he has written to the Secy of the Interior and urged him to accept the New River into the Scenic River System . Uh , Bob Daniel , another congressman , is asking for information and a letter has just come back toady . I uh - it wasn ' t addressed to me , it was addressed to Peter Crow from Farum College, who ' s on the Virginia Committee and uh I hope that he's going to come out in favor of Scenic River status for the New River . Uh , Our own 9th District representative is Congressman Wompler , uh, his original stand was that he would do what he could for the people of this area and he went off to Washington, lobbied actively in favor of the Blue Ridge Project and hasn't been back in this part of the country since . There have been no public meetings , uh, our representatives act as if everybody down here is in favor of the dam but they have not had any public meetings . They have not sought the opinion of the people. Uh, Congressman Wompler put out a newsletter to all his constituents �-2Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side A I think he got 20,000 replies, uh asking our advice about what out attitude ought to be about China, and what it ought to be toward this and that and the other thing, but he did not ask what our attitude was about Scenic River status for the New River . Q. Why do you think that is? A. Uh, I think he has an opinion about it and he ' s not willing to be swayed . And since the governor of the state has agreed with him on it, and the attorney general has gone along with the idea, uh I think their attitude is "Don ' t rock the boat" . Q. Well, is Mouth of Wilson the only place , or Grayson County the only place that will be effected by the River. By the Project, I mean . A. Uh, the Blue Ridge Project would uh innundate 40 , 000 acres of land and take about another 12 , 000 for other purposes . Uh, most of that acreage is in Grayson County . None of it is in any other Virginia county. The rest of the Project is in Ashe County and Allegheny County in North Carolina . So Grayson County is the only county that will have acres and acres of water . Q. Well, has the governor changed his mind , sort of , or is the state as a whole still for the Project? A. Uh, as far as, uh, the state as a whole doesn't know much about it . Uh, there are dams all over the state of Virginia , uh Virginia Electric Power Company, VEPCO plans to build an even larger pump storage project than the Blue Ridge Project up in Bath County . And uh, there ' s been very little opposition to that . There ' s a plan now to build four more dams on the Roanoke River above Roanoke . All of these will be , theoretically , recreation areas . There are, the reservoir is not too far from us , the , of course the Holsten Reservoir, down toward Bristol, Virginia . The Smith Mountain Lake, Flater Lake . We have huge lakes all around us that are supposed to be great recreational places but they have not made uh , uh, real great economic impact on the counties in which they are located . APC wants this project , they have given us newspaper articles , and expensive advertising . You know of course about the double page ads in the New York Times , the Washington Post , Time Magazine , The Wallstreet Journal . Uh , the advertising alone has cost them about $150,000 . 00 . And all of the talk they have done , they talk about what a great thing they are doing for the country . They never once said we are going to make a buck out of this project , if we can get it built . And they talk about the truth , but they never talk about the financial uh boon that it would be to APC . Of course , one of the big problems is that in the area that will be covered up by water annually , there is produced 13! million dollars in agricultural products . APCO , the one figure that I heard is that they plan to sell the electricity for about $39 million a year and that will be profit to APCO , no profit to the local situation . The next alternative , the next uh possible alternative to building the Blue Ridge Project would be to build another highly effecient coal fired electrical generation station . And that would cost APCO $3 million a yea~ . more than it would cost them in the long run to produce electricity �-3- Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side A by the Blue Ridge Project. So, for the sake of saving APCO $3 million on their already $39 million profit, but to save them $3 million, we sacrifice $13t million in agricultural products off this land. One of the things that they offer as an inducement to Grayson County is that they will pay $1 million in taxes annually, which sounds good, but its very similar to the deal the United States made with Cuba, when we rented, on a 99 year lease, Guantanamo Bay as a naval base. We said we'd give them, I forget the exact amount, but it looked like alot of money to the Cubans. Well, at the time we made the agreement, uh, back at the turn of the century, a few hundred thousand dollars was great to them, and now of course, Castro doesn't even cash the checks we give him because he says the land is far more valuable than that. Uh, the Isthmus of Panama, when we built the Panama Canal, we made a deal to give so many million dollars annually to the country of Panama, and they were glad to get it. But that's been 70 years ago and now they are crying that what we are giving them is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what that land is actually worth. Uh, APC, and I read the papers on this just today, uh, the deal is that once you assess the value of the land and put it under water, the value does not change and so fifty years from now, they could, Grayson County could be receiving a million dollars from the land - a year, from the land that's covered up. But fifty years from now, with a six or eight or ten percent annual inflation rate, that million dollars is not going to pay the salary of the mayor of the town. Now that's just one of the things that they make it sound like "We're going to give you a million dollars a year'' Well, that's not even tied to the inflation rate. It's not tied to the increased value of the land. Q. One of the questions that alot of people are asking the committee at school is what are the people at the Mouth of Wilson going to do, I mean, not just where are they going to move, but uh is the APC making some kind of arrangements for the people that are going to be moved? A. In the advertisement that the APCO or that American Electric Power Company, which is the parent company of Appalachian Power Company, in the advertisement that they put in all the newspapers, they stated that they would, and there's quite a little list of things they would do for the people who would be displaced. They would give them the fair price for their land . . They would help them locate a new place to live with an advisory service. If there was an increase in interest cost on mortgages, they would supply that. There was a list of seven or eight things that they woul~ do. And it sounded great until you realized that the law requires them to do every one of those, if they run people off their land. This is not something that APC is giving to anybody, out of the goodness of their hearts. Its a requirement of the law. Now, one of the requirements was that if tenants on the land here were to be relocated, that APC were to be responsible for the cost of relocating tenants, not landowners, but just people who rented homes on the land that's going to be inundated. The law further stipulated �- 4- Hal Eaton Tape 1 , Side A 4 that that maximum in moving costs could go as high as $5 , 000 . 00 because they had to put some ceiling on it , but it had to be some ceiling that would cover all the possibilities and potential of costs of a move . And so , when Appala chian heard this , they immediately quit renting houses . And up and down this valley , for three years , houses were left vacant and let go to ruin because they did not want to anticipate having to pay the cost of moving renters from one house to another . And now that they have rather recently started renting these houses out again , many of them are in a sad state of repair and that ' s another problem that the whole county faces , because they bought the land , allowed the houses to go down without renting them and now they ' re - uh they ' ve begun to rent them again just recently . Uh , one other point in their ad they said that all of the people who would be moved off the i r land would be cared for by APC . And I have yet to find any red blooded American who wants to be cared for by a power company (laughing) . The wording of this thing is just atrocious . Q. Why , besides making so much money , the power company , is there some other reason that they particularly want this project to go through, that ' s been going on for so many years? A. Yes . Q. And they have spent sornuch money on advertising •.. A. Yes . Uh , I I think there may well be a feeling on the part of APCO and American Electric Power Company - American Electric is a conglomerate of seven large power companies that control most of the electricity in about a six or seven state area . I ' m not sure about the details on this , but they know that if in their desire for power , if they are blocked in their desire to get a dam built on a river to make power , then it ' s going to be a whole lot easier for them to be blocked again in the fut ure if they want to dam a river . And so this is a uh , in a sense , maybe a uh test case . Uh darns have been blocked before , but never with as much publicity and as much uh uh involvement of politicians , as is the case here . And if this uh becomes a reality , that the people , that the voice of the people is heard before the voice of a uh a private pow ~r company , then that will certainly will be a boost to any , any group of private citizens who desire to hold out against the onslaught of a a power company who wants to come in and condemn their land and take it away from them . Q. Well , how do you feel , r ight now at this point as to how i t ' s going to go? A. Uh •.. Q. I ' ll tell you why I ask this because last night another student that works with us interviewed a lawyer in Sparta , I believe Mr . Adams ••. ? A. Yes , uh huh . �5 -5- Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side A Q. And he said he wasn't worried at all. would win this. A. Yes. Uh, one of the principles of any battle like this is that you've always got to be optimistic. Uh, every campaign manager for every presidential candidate says that's their group is going to win. Any time he begins to poor mouth himself and say we don't stand a chance, he's going to lose votes. And I think it's good to be optimistic. I know that APC is optimistic. Uh, the man named Kirkland, who is head of the Pulaski division of APC, has been hosting dinners all over this area in the past two weeks, inviting all interested citizens to a free meal and then a speech in which he says that we are going to build this dam. We need it and we'll take it clear to the Supreme Court. Well he doesn't dare say we may lose. Because it's part of the psychology of battle that you uh, well, as an old Spanish proverb puts it, we are running out of ammunition and the food is getting low and everybody is wounded, run up more flags. (laughing) And both sides of course, have a tendency to do this and I'm not as optimistic as some because I know that APC is not going to give up easily. I do know that is the New River is accepted into the Scenic River System by the Department of the Interior that APC will go to court in an attempt to overthrow that decision. But I do maintain that uh it's better for APCO to go to court to get a profitable power situation out of this valley than for the people who live here to have to go to court in order merely to hold onto what's already theirs. But that's the way it is now. These people are contributing money, in the cause of court cases in order to fight off the power company and if they win, they've lost their money because they've spent it only to hold onto what they've got. If they lose, they've lost their land and their contribution to the battle. That's just not fair. And I'd rather see APCO have to go to court than for these people to go to court. Q. Well, do you think there's any one thing that we haven't tried yet or that hasn't been tried yet, that maybe could stop the power company? A. Uh, there are three things going on right now, you know, to stop them. Uh, uh, when you said trying things, it reminded me that uh APCO has often said that, and the Roanoke Times has echoed it, the Roanoke Times I think is the only newspaper I've seen that has shown support for the Blue Ridge Project. But the Roanoke Times has said that the state of North Carolina has dipped down into their bag of tricks to find some method to block the building of the dam. Well, bless their hearts, the whole purpose of the Scenic River System is to block dams. That's the primary purpose of it to retain the beauty and the natural setting of rivers. And it's to block dams. That's what it's for. And to say they reached into a bag of tricks to block the Blue Ridge Project, they simply took one of the avenues that the voice of the people established for the purpose of blocking dams. And so it's no trick, it's simply a uh a way to block dams. And that's what it's for. Uh, And he thought that we �-6- Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side A if the Scenic River - uh acceptance of the New River into the national Scenic River System works , that ' s fine . Now, if it ' s accepted into the system and APCO goes to court , their claim is that they got their license first , you know . It was granted by the Federal Power Commission , with an effective of January , 1975 . And so they say if the River goes into the Scenic River System in 1976 , they got there first , that they have a right to it . Uh, one of the things that the lawyers for APC said that was really hilarious - he said that since APCO owns already some of the land that they want to put under water , that he just thinks it would be terrible if the federal government should designate it as a scenic river and keep them from developing that private property that is their ' s . And I about fell out of my chair when I heard that (laughing) . It ' s private property that they claim to have acquired by condemnation proceedings . And that ' s just , just an insult (laughing) . But the , the one item there is that , to say that , that the license has been granted and therefore it is inviolate is rather stupid . To say that simply because a license has been granted you can't fight it is silly . And I think it is only inviolate if it has been subjected to every possible attempt to overthrow it and when all attempts clear the Sup reme Court have been brushed aside and the license has been upheld, then they have got an effective date . But they can ' t argue that they got there first . If that ' s the argument , we ' ll give it back to the Indians . Uh , but the logic that you see in this thing is just - it gets to be hilarious . Now the second thing , to block the construction of the dam is the court case that North Carolina took to the Court of Appeals , uh , suggesting that when the Federal Power Commission gave the license to APCO , that APCO had not provided all of the information to the Federal Power Commission which the law required . Specifically with regard to archeological sites and findings . And that is exactly what happened . Uh , they are required to do it , when somebody brought it up and said you didn ' t do it , they said we did too . And this was uh uh direct quotes. The man in charge , Paul Johnson , said "We did give them that information ." And they pressed him further and asked him when did you give it to them and he said "Well , we had it and they had access to it ." And then when pressed further he said "Well , it ' s in our files but it was never sent to them ." And that ' s the way it rested . Uh , so that the second thing is that uh , the Court of Appeals has heard the case andthere are three judges and from all appearances , it looks like they are going to say the license is invalid because you disobeyed the law when you granted it , you must go through the whole process with re - hearings again . Now , that will throw it back to the Federal Power Commission . That ' s the second which may halt the building of the Blue Ridge Project . The third thing is that if both of those previous steps fail , the third thing that can be tried is that there are at least a half a dozen if not more , bills already prepared and just waiting to be put through the uh , through Congress . Uh , all of them uh , stating various things, but all of it coming down to one thing - to block the building of the Blue Ridge Dams . Some of them - one of the bills is simply to - by Congressional action to put the whole :tk±Jl1g New River in the Scenic River system . �-7- Hal Eaton Tape 1 , Sice A Or various sections of it . One is simply , just says no dams will be built on the New River in the Blue Ridge area . Uh , I have forgotten how they have worded the other bills but there are half a dozen just waiting , so nobody can say uh well you ' ve reached into your bag of tricks and found another one . This is not reaching into a bag of tricks . This is foresight on the part of Representative Stephen Neal , who followed the lead of , of Wilbur Mizel , whom he replaced . Mizel started it and Neal took right up where Mizel left off and uh followed the voice of the people in North Carolina . And will push the bill through Congress if that ' s the next step . Uh , one of the things that APC is fond of saying is that the attempt to block , or to study the New River on a two year basis for inclusion in the National Scenic River System uh that was voted down in Congress and of course it was . Of course , it got a tremendous majority vote for the study in the Senate . When it got to the House of Representatives , it got bottled up in a committee by an eighty- some year old senator who said that since some other people didn ' t do what he wanted with the Indiana sand dunes , he wasn ' t going to do what they wanted with the bill for the New River . And he blocked it and bottled it up until our Congressman Wompler went before them with a , uh a resolution from the Virginia State Farm Bureau which said that they thought we needed the electric power more than the uh agricultural products of the valley down here . Well you know , getting a resolution passed in a state meeting like that is uh - if you have ever been to a state convention , all you have to do is submit one and it ' ll get passed . Uh , there was tremendous disruption in the local county farm bureau meetings when this came out . In fact , there were statements printed in the newspaper that uh , uh , by the local state farm bureau representative saying we will have no part of that . We want it understood we had no part in that . But Wampler used that to get the bill to study the New River for inclusion in the Scenic River System uh , voted down in the committee . So then it was placed directly on the floor for a vote by the congressmen in the House of Representatives . If it ' s been bottled up in a committee and does not go through the committee for passage of a bill like that , it takes a two - thirds majority . That ' s one of the technicalities of running the business . The bill, as I say, passed by an outstanding majority of the Senate . When it got to the House of Representatives , it passed by a simple majority . But not by a two thirds majority . So by actual vote of Congress , the voice of the people , demo - democracy in action . they said " Let ' s study the New River for inclusion in the uh the Scenic River System ." But their own technicalities let it fail , ev ~ n though it pass ed by an outstanding majority in the Senate and by a simple majority in the House of Representatives . So when APC blindly says it was voted down in Congress, that ' s not the whole truth . So that ' s the , that ' s the third channel in Congress where this thing could be blocked . So there are three - if we win one battle we ' ve won the war . But if we lose a battle , we haven ' t lost the war . There are still other ways to go about it . And I ' ve often said that that the last~is to arm some of our old widow ladies on these farms with a shotgun and let them sit on their front porches . �- 8- Hal Eaton Tape 1 , Side A And uh , it ' s been done before , but you need national attention for a situation like this where uh so much is to be dest r oyed for actually so little . It ' s not l i ttle when you think about the money that APC might make off of it . But it ' s ver y l i ttle compared to the life of the Blue Ridge Project . It ' s got a fifty year license and they anticipated fifteen years that the thing they ' re talking about - the need being peak power pr oduc tion , will have diminished . Far below half of what the requirement is when it ' s first in operation . So even the reason they are pushing it is a reason that ' s going to be out of existence in ten to fifteen years . Q. Uh , can this be compared to the Tennessee Valley Authority , to what happened there? A. Uh , yeah . The Tennessee Valley Authority , I think most of those are not pump storage projects . They are just dams which provide power directly . Q. But I mean , that ' s what happened to the people? A. That ' s right . Very similar , yes . Uh , the land is condemned, the people are moved off . Uh , as always happenes , the people who a r e uh uh the first ones to knuckle under , if you please , to sell , take a beating because within three or four year s , the people who sell are making - getting twi ce as much money as the people were earlier in the game . And that causes bitterness . And then with all of the promises that APC has made about how valuable the land is going to be around here , alot of people have gone into speculation . And therefore land prices have jumped around here . Just - you can ' t buy a farm and farm it profitably because it costs too much for the land now to farm it properly . Because of the speculation about how valuable the land is going to be if the dam comes . But uh we have alot of feelings that all the pr omises that Appalachian makes are not going to be fulfilled . I said to somebody today I almost wish we ' d let them go ahead and build the dam so we could say " I told you so " when things don ' t work out nea rly as gloriously as they seem to think they will . Q. Have alot of people around here sold out already? A. Uh , Appalachian has figu r es on this . I think they ' ve bought a third of the land they will require, but I ' m not sure of the figures on that . They have bought some of the land that they will ultimately require . Now they are not pursueing it right now . They haven ' t bought any land for three to four years e 2~ cept when somebody has gone to them . But they are not going around making offers as they did up until about four years ago . Q. Why is that? A. Well , I think they have uh considerable doubts about whether or not this thing is really going to be built . Uh , another item The same thing . �-9- Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side A-B of course, is the rebuilding of Highway 58 between Independence and Galax. That's a tortuous route that goes along the river and uh, for years now, they've not rebuilt that highway because uh, if the dams come it's going to be flooded and they'll have to rebuild it somewhere else. They have two routes - a high one and a low one. And so, just last week, the uh, all of the Grayson County Board of Supervisors and the school boards and some other people went before the State Highway Commission and they said "What are you going to do?" And after all these years they said "We've waited long enough, we're going to start building that highway. If Appalachian will pay us," I've forgotten the figures but it was something like, it will cost them, uh several million dollars more to go the high route away from the water. So the State Highway Department said "We'll build the low route unless Appalachian provides us the money now to build on the high route, uh, out of the water. And Appalachian said no. So they are going to build it on the low route and then when the water comes and floods it, Appalachian will be stuck for the bill for rebuilding the whole thing on the high route, at a much greater expense. Now these are signals that we have that make us think that Appalachian is not nearly sure as they - Q. Their two page ad - A. As their ads signify and as their speeches indicate. What m~ybe ought not be on the tape is that we are now looking into the fact that when APCO constructs a new facility, they can r±gkt write off the cost of that into the, the cost of electricity. So they don't to uh uh cut corners on construction or watch their eApenses. They know they are going to get 10% back on whatever, you know. Because that's the nature of a control monopoly. VEPCO in one place, in order to facilitate uh some of their building, was paying higher than union scale for some of their workmen. Now that makes VEPCO look like real nice guys but the consumers are paying for it, because that goes right to what they call the rate base, uh, and they got caught doing that. Uh, we think and we are looking into the fact that most of APCO's construction is done by the Solid Construction Company, based in Indiana, a state that does not require an organization to publish its · Board of Directors or its stockholders. So we don't know who the major stockholders are. But most of APCO's construction is done by the Solid Construction Company without competitive bidding. Now what does that sound like? Well, it sounds like the major stockholders of APC could well be the major stockholders of their own, their own private construction company, just as they had the Franklin Real Estate Company to, to hold all their land. It was chartered in Pennsylvania, which does not require them to reveal who their Board of Directors are. Well, it turned out it was the same batch of guys running APCO. And they were - uh, theoretically in this uh, uh controlled monopoly thing, they had a real estate company working to their advantage and, and the State Securities Commission told them to get rid of all the real estate they were holding for profit, because it wasn't fair to be a controlled monopoly and still have uh, burgeoning real estate values, uh, supporting their �- 10- Hal Eaton Tape 1 , Side B real estate company and making a pile of money on it . Uh , especially when again some of the land they got was, uh , was acquired by condemnation proceedings . So the whole thing , you know , I , I don ' t go around saying the r e ' s a big conspiracy , and big business is out to get us , but there are some big businesses who will utilize any method to make money off consumers . And APC has proven itself not to be above doing just that . Q. A. Uh , by decisions, you mean Interior or Congressmen or •.. Q. Welll , right now I know it ' s up to Kleppe ••• A. Yes - no, I don ' t think anybody ' s being bought off . I ' ve never wanted to feel that way about anybody . I know the principles I know that the people who make those decisions don ' t come down here and sit around uh somebody ' s fireplace and talk about the problems . They go to cocktail parties where representatives of APCO talk to them . Uh , obviously the newspaper's been full of the fact that the various bureaucrats in Washington are invited to hunting lodges and seashore resorts and all that sort of thing by big business companies , who support those resorts and those hunting lodges out of the profits of the company . Uh , APCO had a , uh , uh , fishing lodge up on Smith Mountain Lake - I think it was Smith Mountain Lake and it was uh , a real estate . And they always say, well that was supported out of profits , not out of the consumers . Where do the profits come from? Absolutely from the consumers . They ' ve been saying that all this advertising they ' ve been doing comes out of profits . (laughing) Profits don ' t come from no place but the pockets of the people who pay for electricity . So when they use that thing to say that it ' s not costing the consumers , it ' s just not true . It takes a pretty sharp pencil to come to that conclusion . But the money all comes from the comsumers . Q. '· . Do you think some of the people that are going to make the decision about the Project do you think they are being bought off too? Well, you ' ve told us now what the power company does to talk people into their point of view, what exactly has your committee in Virginia , what kind of things do they do to get publicity , raise support ••• ? A. Yes . Uh , we put together a petition and asked Virginians of voting age to sign petitions and only Virginians of voting age . And we ' ve put together enough that there are 5 , 000 Virginians who have signed that . Uh , we sent copies to uh all the Congressmen to the Department of Interior and to the governor . And after ' our copies went to the governor , I wrote to Governor Godwin and I said , " Now , you ' ve got an honest , open expression from 5 , 000 voting Virginians who say , in effect , that you ' re speaking , uh, when you speak in a court case about being , supporting the Blue Ridge Project, you are obviously not speaking for an awful lot of Virginians . And one of our goals is simply to get publicity . �-11Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side B Because we feel that anybody whose studies the situation and learns about the New River and its background, about the methods that been utilized in the attempt to make it a pump storage project and the wild promises that have been made to some local people about how great it's going to be, the more you know about this, the more you are going to be for the side of preserving the New River. Uh, I wrote to the governor and said, "Here are 5,000 Virginians who say you are not speaking for us. Who are you speaking for?" Well, he signed a letter - I, uh I said in my letter that uh I hoped that he read mail like that, that it didn't get answered by the same people who made up his policy statements. So he did sign the letter that came back to me, but it said that there were three thousand members of the Grayson County Business Development Association that he had to deal with. Now, I asked around here, what's the Grayson County Business Development Association. Most people had never heard of them. One man said, oh, that was a group of land speculators who put together a petition some years ago in support of the Blue Ridge Project. And the president of the Grayson Business Development Association was, guess who, Fred Bennington - a full time employee of APC. So I wrote to the governor and I said you made a little mistake here. There aren't 3,000 members of that committee. That's ridiculous! There were that many names on that petition that was put together by some land speculators and real estate people who hoped to make a dollar out of the plight of their fellow Grayson countians. And I said even then the president of the organization was a full time employee of APC. I said, this is ridiculous. And the letter I got back was not signed by the governor but by one of his third assistants or something or other and he said uh, well they's accepted those, uh that list of membership in good faith and maybe I knew more about it than they did, but they didn't say that they were going to look into it. Oh, in my letter I also said that the governor should take a chance and have a public hearing down here on the subject. This fella, in his answer, said he'd only been in the state government for a couple of years and he didn't know if there'd been any public hearings or not. Well, I told him there hadn't been but he as much as said he wouldn't take my word for it. And the final thing he said was uh, I don't think you are going to change the governor's mind. (laughing) So, uh, this is what we're caught with, uh, uh, a state government that pays no attention. Now I've said before that when we went down to Raleigh, and this state Scenic River bill came before the state legislature, uh, one of the legislators came to me and said "Hey, tell me in five minutes what this is all about." He said, "I don't know anything about it." So I told him and he said "Well, I understand." And I said, well I apologize for all of us in Virginia, because we can't get any action going like this. And he said, "We couldn't do it either if it was the Duke Power Company." So he was saying that he understood why Virginia legislators didn't dare speak out against people like APC. And I can understand it too. But I sure wish they would look into the matter pertaining to, uh, their constituents in Virginia. And especially in the areas that are going to be most vitally effected by the Blue Ridge Project. �- 12Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side B f( Q. Why won ' t the people speak out against the power companies? - the state government ? A. Well , the - now they know what kind of r estrictions they must operate under and if a state legislator in North Carolina tells me he couldn ' t speak out against Duke Power Company , I can understand that because Duke Power Company carries alot of weight in the state of North Carolina . And I can understand why a state legislator in Virginia wouldn ' t speak out against APC . I say again , these are the people they go the cocktail parties with . You know, I spent ~O years in the Navy going to cocktail parties and I know how the bureaucrats work having been one . Un , Q. You committee here - do you work with the committee in North Carolina? A. Oh , we about have to because uh uh , I don ' t know where the committee gets its horsepower but they ' ve got alot of people - they have an office to work with , uh I ' m the - they ' ve got Joe Mathews and the Northwest Conservation Economic Development Council or something . They ' ve got an office , they ' ve got office workers , we ' ve got me and that stack over there and a 1·i1e cabinet down in the basement . And uh , if I want to write a letter , it means I ' ve got to get my daughter ' s typewriter and uh , you know , uh, working at a different level . We ' ve got a secretary- treasurer who is 13 miles that way and uh , I haven ' t seen her in 3 months I guess . Uh , our organization is not uh , doesn ' t have the , the equipment , the office nor the headquarters that the North Carolina committee does . We organized after they organized . And we did it in response to say " Hey there ' s some of us up here who are with you ." And uh , uh , the response , of course , all of this is put out by the North Carolina committee . But uh , the people who are in favor of the dam in this locality don ' t speak up . And I wrote a letter for the first time , I saw a post office box for the Grayson Business Development Association , this week . So I wrote them a letter and said " Hey ~' and I did it on our letterhead that lists all our officers, I said , " Please tell me uh where your office is , who your leaders are , uh , tell me how many members you've got " and I said in the letter , '' I have a letter from Gov . Godwin and he thinks you have got 3 , 900 members ." I said "I would just like to know a little more about you since nobody knows ." Almost a secret organization . And I have never met anybody who said to me I am a member of the Grayson Business Development Assoc . I believe Robert Williams is a member ( laughing) . This is the fella we ' ve just talked to today about clearing our land and digging a foundation - he ' s got bulldozers . And he wants to make money off using his bulldozers if the dam comes through . I ' ll go along with that . To make a buck is a worthwhile motive as long as you admit to it . And if APCO wants to make a dollar I wish they'd say that and knock off all this fallderall about how good they are going to be to the population of the world . And the p eople who favor the dam, if they simply say to me I ' m in favor because I think I ' ll be richer , that ' s the finest motive in the world , that ' s good old American capitalism and I don ' t �- 13- Hal Eaton Tape 1 , Side B ;) object to that . But if they tell me I ' m going to be richer too , or that I ' m going to benefit by it , I want a little more proof than has been offered . Q. Uh , we were talking about one of the ways to get the dam stopped is perhaps the archeological studies that have been done but haven ' t been all that publicized or whatever? A. They were not included in the report to the Federal Power Commission . Q. Well , I know one of them was done by Dr . Ayers at the school , at Appalachian , and uh , I don ' t know exactly what all is involved in that . But I was wondering if someone like the Smithsonian Institution has been contacted about it ? Or National Geographic Magazine ? By the committee to see if they could do something like fund a big project? A. Yeah , I don ' t know . Q. I mean , it looks like if anybody could do anything , they maybe could . A. Uh huh . That phase of it is controversial , for several reasons . One is uh , this doctor came down and made an archeological survey which was required . APC had to fund it and they did a couple of them at different times and they had to pay the money for it and yet they were very cursory . You know , a couple of weeks was the most that was spent on it . And yet they uncovered so many sites and so many things were found and uh , one of the problems was that Appalachian has used is that uh , this Dr . Ayers , is that his name? He requested that those sites be kept secret - that they not be published so that people wouldn ' t get in there and start tearing them up looking for things . Uh , APC said the reason they didn ' t put these in the report was that , because he had asked for secrecy . Well , now the wholE: thing has been . . braadcast and everybody knows about it , but nobody knows where they are yet . Appalachian ' s arguement doesn ' t hold water . They could have talked about the archeological findings without revealing the sites because those sites haven ' t been revealed yet . Nobody knows where they are . except that fella and whoever • s got the report at APCO . So they certainly could have made those things , made the knowledge about them available without giving up any secrets , as I say . So that ' s a little bit of a controversial things . Some people say well if you look hard enough along almost any river in the country you ' ll find things like this . Well , that may or may not be true . We know we found them here , we don ' t know they can be found along the Adkin or along the , what is up at Charleston , the Canawa . Q. I was thinking about , uh , a professor came to talk to us at school from Winston-Salem or somewhere . He was telling us about the Nile River . or course , that this is the second oldest river in the world , well you know about the pyramids and everything �;J - 14- Hal Eaton Tape 1, Side B Q. along the Nile . A. Yes . The Aswan Dam was built on the Nile and it flooded many ancient archeological sites and they were - they collected money all over the world from interested people to move some of those things . But what they covered up that hadn ' t been dug up yet , no telling how much . So , uh , uh , this is an important item because people do pay attention to holding onto our history and our culture and our heritage . Q. Well , do you have any more questions (to Mike)? We were just mostly interested in what you were doing here in Virginia ... Well if you don ' t have anything more to add - I know you could talk probably along time about the River - A. Well , these things go on . The best deal is to get in a canoe and go down the River . We had at school here yesterday - I got hold of a film entitled " A Man and the River " and it ' s done by the Environmental Protection Agency , you know Thomas Hart Benton is an old Missouri artist and I ' m a Missouri boy and used to see all his paintings - he ' s great on murals and Thomas Hart Benton died just a couple of years ago , yesterday we got the Reader ' s Digest and there ' s a big long article about Thomas Hart Benton in Reader ' s Digest . It ' s a pretty good article . But this film uh , was done by the EPA uh and I don ' t know what their purpose was but it showed alot of his works , his paintings and his drawings but interspersed with him floating in a canoe down the Buffalo River in the Ozarks of Missouri which is one of the rivers that has been protected against dams by being included in the National Scenic River System and it looks just like the New River . Just exactly like it . And uh , uh , I was never on the Buffalo but I ' ve been on the Current River and the White River and alot of rivers down in southern Missouri years ago and uh , I was really tickled toget this film that depicts - in fact , if our daughter didn ' t take it to high school to show it , it ' s in there on the table now . But it ' s just a , a good emotional impact when you see , here is this old fella up in his eighties , paddling down the river and making drawings of the things on it because he ' s got a real interest in keeping some rivers like they were . The Federal Power Commission has one job and that ' s to find power. And yet they give them , theoretically , the total say so on where they ' ll slap dams around the country without every considering the heritage of the people or the land or the agriculture or anything else and the ~whole history of the Federal Power Commission they ' ve turned down ~ two applications for dams and approved every other one . Now that ' s stupid because - and then uh uh , several people have said , well the Federal Power Commission ought to have the authority to say this because they were created by Congress to do that job and Congress ought not to step in and say no when they make a decision . Why absolutely Congress ought to . Anytime I ' ve got a guy working for me and he botches a job I either fire him or straighten him out , you know . You don ' t just say I gave him a job and if he does it wrong why I don ' t have any right to correct it . Congress established the FPC to do a job but that job is only recently were there any requirement for About how .•. �- 15- Hal Eaton Tape 1 , Side B I environmental impact statement . That ' s a new emphasis we ' ve got . Uh , did you hear that story about Moses led the people of Israel out of Egypt right up to the Red Sea and the army of Phar oh � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Efird, Jane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Eaton, Hal Interview Date 2/19/1976 Number of pages 15 pages Date digitized 9/22/2014 File size 14.1MB Checksum alphanumeric code d44665da49f6e6f0e7949daa692731d1 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape339_HalEaton_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hal Eaton [Feburuary 19, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Efird, Jane Eaton, Hal Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachian Power Company Blue Ridge Project Water resources development--New River Valley (N.C.-W. Va.) Environmentalism Eaton, Hal--Interviews Description An account of the resource Interview about Appalachian Power Company's attempt to create a dam on the New River, near Grayson County, Virginia and the community's battle to keep them out. American Electric Power Company APC Appalachian Power Company Bath County Blue Ridge Project dams Duke Power Company Environmental Protection Agency Federal Power Commission Flater Lake Grayson Business Development Association Grayson County Va. Hal Eaton Holsten Reservoir House of Representatives Mouth of Wilson New River New River fight North Carolina Northwest Conservation Economic Development Council Raleigh Roanoke River Roanoke Times Scenic River bill Scenic River System Smith Mountain Lake State Highway Department Stephen Neal Tennessee Valley Authority Virginia Virginia Electric Power Company https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/61b8ac98d1bdb562a48623aec5d27a7e.pdf ffd35fd69fb38b80c4fa9af45d98ddd6 PDF Text Text This is an ·Appalachian Oral History Project interview with M r. Perry Hicks of M arion, North Carolina who is a retired mill worker. He was interviewed by Sam Howie on December Jl, 1975. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Some of the first things we need to know are thi ng s like where you we re born. Well, I was born in Haywood County in the extreme western part of North Carolina, right inside of North Carolina. Our closest neighbors we r e in Tennessee •••• back in the extreme western part, near Pigeon River. Pigeon Rive r? I was raised on a company's land. My father paid $25 a y e ar, standing rent, on the mountain f a rm. And he raised hogs, c a ttle and livestock and he farmed. He raised wheat, corn, oats, rye, irish potatoes. The land produced rye and oats in abundance, and irish potatoes and cabbage and vegetables. But the corn made about 15 bushels an acre, about 6 to 8 bushels of wheat per acre, and about 20 bushels of rye, and about 20 or 25 bushels of oats. And , I was raise d there and we had a three-month school. We went to school through July, August and September, at an old sawmill shanty. And my daddy left there when I was ab out 12 years oad and went farther back in Haywood County to a big double-band sawmill. He went there for the e x press reason to send me and my brother to a six-mon th school. We was up to a pretty good size. About the only thing I learned wa s how to hobo a railroad engin e in old log[ ing trains. It 'd leav e there in the morning ab out the time my daddy went to work. I 'd get on it and go to the mountains and come back in just ab o ut dinnertime and go to the house and eat my dinner. I went back, I went back to the mountains •• I did most of the ti me. The thing that got me out of heart about g oing to school was that most of the students were stupid or dumb or something o r d i dn't care about learni ng and the tead.her appointed me to try to help them learn. nd I went from seat to seat for a week or two and I wasn't making any progr e ss. They weren't learning, and the teacher would get on me ••• so I got out of heart and quit . ' Then my daddy bought a farm in Madison County, moved back there, and stayed til I reckon it was 1920. But in the meantime I met my wife and me and her was married. I was 17 years old, she wa s 16. That 's been 59 years ago . What year we~e y ou born in? I was born in 1899 and we decided to come to t h e cotton belt ••• here to M arion and we come up there and I went to work in the mill. What year wa s that? That was 1919 that I went to work in the cotton mill. Which mill was that? Was1 that in ••• That was Clinchfield. Clin chfield? It's Clinchfield. The one that you came by. The bi e one? And the mill run 12 hours a day. Of cours e , the day I worked was 10 hours , but the wheels and machinery they would stop at 12 hou rs. I went to work in the card room for a dollar for 10 hours, got a dollar a day. I paid 45 cents per week for house rent, for a three-room house. W as it a mill village then, that you lived in? Yeah. Clinchfield mill villa g e? �2. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Yeah, Cli n chfield village. Did you have to live in the mill village to work in the mill? No, you didn't have to but it was cheaper. They furnished the house. It took 700 hands to run the two mills at that time. We was up there, I don't remember how many years, several years though. There was a man who come in here organized a union. What years? Two cotton mills. Was that in 1929? I guess it was. Yeah , it wa s. And oh, he got the East Marion mill pretty well organi zed . The mill I was working in, they never did go so str ong for the union. All of the bus i nesses in M arion was bitterly opposed to it. To the union? Yeah , to the union. And, of course, by me being nonunion, I was let in the inside of wha t was going to happen. I was sworn to secrecy not to tell anybody what I knowed about what was go i ng to happen. But I knowed the union wasn ' t gping to win and I knowed the unio~··· ah, the company was not going to accept it, the people wasn t going to accept it. The town and the businesses wasn't going to accept it. They were se ar ching all the time for something that they could try the union organizer for, in the law. Take a warrant for him ahd try him. Do you remember his name? Hoffman . And he went right on and closed the mill I was working at for three weeks a nd they got ready to start it up and they told us all where to get to, t o come in on a certa i n Mo nday morning . And we went there, and I was the first person to get ther e th t morning , me and my brother-in-law. We went up on a bank and the union neve~ did see us. But when they began to gather in, to go to work, the union people they was on the picket line, they had the spies and they all came in there. And the union got to singing hymns and inviting people t o come to the ••• to be saved, t hat is come in and join the union. And th9 superintendent, Henderson, he c a me in and when he went to open the gate, why some of them caught his coattails and drug him backwards. So he said ev e rybody go home. o we all went home and in another week they notified us to gather up one day again a t 12 o'clock at the company office. That was the superintendent's office? Yeah, so that day we all come and there was number one, number two mill and we wa s going to try to start up number two mill. It was the b iggest mill. nd of course the union was evtErywhere. It was closed. h nd we got the ••• finally got the soldiers in there. 'l bey pushed t h em back. nd we got inside t h e lock. W ell, we had enough help to start the smaller mill. o they took us all ov e r to the smaller mill and we started up at 12 o'clock that day. Then after that, it was all over with. They cut the hours down at the mi l l. Of course all along they'd be.gun rais i ng the wag es. And I had got up to piecework and I made 18 dollars and 75 cents a we ek , five days and a half on piece work. ow many hours a d ay? W ell, I worked 12 hours a day b e cau s e every hour I worked was more money to me. They started t h e machi n e ry at 6 o 'clock in the morning, but I was always on hand to start my ·ob. Then me and somebody would work together, and he wo uld take my job am. his �J. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. too while I was of f to l u nch. And I'd come back and watch h is job and mine too and he would g o to luhch. So we never let our machinery stop. I was running frames in the card room, and it went on that way and after that was all over with, all blowed away, they went to putting one, couldn't have one man, put t ing two men on a ••• putting one man on the job two men had been running. And it just kept getting worse and worse. Was that after the strike in 1929? Yeah. ~hat was after that? Yeah. nd then they ••• thing s got so bad through the Depression and they cut us down to half a day at a time. I went of a morning and worked u ntil twelve and so mebody would come in and run my job in the afternoon. But I had a wife and at that time five children and I couldn 1 t feed anyone on it. So I quit and went into farming, and went to farming. Do you remember what year that was? In the early JO's? Yeah. The early JO's. And them people that was left up there, they didn't have no way to get out. But I had connections with that person who had some property. I was always pretty bad to talk and get acquainted and find about people, make friends with people. So I had connecti ons with a rich man who owned all this land from here, I mean right where this house is, and he rented me his farm a nd farmed it for five years. At that time, the cotton mills picked up again ••• still stretched out. e called it the stretch out. I went back to work to get my old job and I worked about five years. And I b ought a farm, southe ast of this county ri ght down near the Burke P ounty, Rutherford County line. W ent down ther e and stayed for six years. W a t community wa s that? h That's the Dysartsvill e Community. And after I sold out that place down the re, my motive t h en was to work out Social Security. Th en you cou ldn't carry Social Security if y u we ren't working for the company , but they chang6d theJaw after a while. nd in the meantime, by work i ng in the cotton mill I took what they call emphy sema, brownlung we called it. I was afraid to go back in t h e cotton mills on account of that so I went to Drexel Furnitu r e Company and went to work for them. Wher e is that? I t's up here in M arion. nd I worked there for 15 years. So I worked in t he cot t on mills for 15 years, I farmed for 15 years, and I worked for Drexel Furniture Company 15 years. I made 4 5 years u ntil I r e tir ed. Th e fir s t of this year will be 14 years after I retired. And as far a s the mountains is c oncerned, where I wa s rais ed, people wore out their land. ot to where it wou ldn't produce. One other thing tha t I didn't mention that i t g re w good was tobacco back in them mountains. Wa s there a good market for it? Yeah. Pe ople ma d e pret t y good money a t it. A lot of people, they didn't when I was a ch i ld, but af ter I got up about grown, people g ot into tobacco, raising tobacco and mad e more and more after I left. W been in this county about, a b out 5~ , ~ea!!B . fhat's e wh en we left Ma dison County. I was r ai sed inMAi~~ & · County , and my wife was raised in M adison County. ~ hat's mountain counties �4. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. and my daddy bought a farm in Madison County . Tha t 's how come we were living in Madison County when me and her wa s marr ied. And her father owned a farm a nd it was wore out when he g ot it, and he ain't ever d one muc h to build it up. And after me and her c om e here,her who le family come too, in about a yeBl'and lived here. Did they come to work in the mills? Yeah . The y c me to work in the mi l ls. I t was he a ven to them, to work in the mills and draw a payday, however small. But to have payday every week and they had about thr e e or four chi ldren old enough to work i n the mill . How old did you have to be before you could go to work in the mill? W ell, back when I was a child, they put c hildren in the mill that was e i ght years old. Eight years old? igh t years old. What did they have them doing? They were work i ng in t h e spinning r o om, spinning, swe eping the floor. I knowed a man, he 1 s been dead about two or three year· s. He told me he went in t he mill when he was eight y e a rs old, worke d there until he retired. He was an overseer for a bout lS or 20 years. But when my wife's p eople came here y ou h a d to be 14, a ch i ld h a d to be 14 years old. You had to prove your a ge. That wo u ld have been during the 2o•: s? Yeah . And then they got it up ••• Yeah, then I think they fina l ly got it up after I left there to where you had to be 16 before they let t hem work in the mills. But when I first come to the cotton mill with my brothers and sisters working i n there a nd have little children, brothers and sisters, and the y'd take them in there six, eight and ten years old and help to run. Anybody going · n the cotton mill worked. ~ here wasn't nothing to it. Did they pay, was th ere a pa y di ff erence for young ••• Yeah , you had to start off with the smallest wage and after you got to where you cou ld run piece work, of course,you g ot a raise. Paid better . 'pinners h a d to h a ve p iece work, we was in piece work and carders had to h ave piece work. hen they had day labor too. Hut the day labor never did work but ten hours. They let them off, they went to work at seven , let them off an hour lunch, and they quit at six that evening. iece workers, naturally, they would go mor e hours a nd then of course I was y oung, pretty ambitious a nd with family to support and I liked to get two hours more because I made more. But they f :!. nally-I'm gett i ng a ll this mixed up-they f l nal ly got a case against the union or ganizer. 'l' oo k h im to court. Tried him and he got a fine. • urned him loose, he r went on down t h e coun t ry somewhere , I for g et where he went to, went to organiz i ng down ther ~ and they got a case against him and they came to Mari on to l nvesti r at e wha t went on ab out him around here. And I don 't know exactly wha t the y ever did do with him. But he t old them he organized Kingsp ort, Tennes s ee, that he was over there or ganiz i ng, working on a union, to raise a union . ell, so me of the strikers here, to be sure, they went over th e re to check on him . They said that when they got there, the re was the roughest looking man they ever saw with two .45 pistols walk ing arou nd the gate , keeping the gate . Said they asked him had the mill ever been uni onized and said he went to cus sing , said no, it hadn't be e n organi 7.ed. ' hey run all the unions off. well, they �5. Q. A. Q• .8. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. run the most of them off here. hey was defeated. (inaudib le) ••• frie nds that hadn't jo i ned to beg for them and get them (inaudible) ••• But naturally, I have, all of my l i fe, been opposed to t he uni o ns. I think, now this is just my opinion, I may be 100 percent wrong, but I believe the unions is the thing that caused us to have the most troubles (i naudible) •• I think they are what is causing 1.us to have high prices now. Because when they organize where they have to pay u~i o n wages, they have to p a y s o much to pr0duce the stuff then they must let prices rise to come out on it. hen the poor class of people, people on ocial Security l i ke me a n d my wife, we h a ve to pinch pennies, to g et by. Buy only stuff t ha t's necessary. Of course, back in the Depressi on, during the JO's and late 20's, there were people who wer e out of work and strugg led to fesi their famili es . nd a 24-pound of flour about 65 cents, five pounds of su gar 25 cents, a pound of coffee 15, all suc h as that. In the Depression when th er e wa sn't so much union ••• ow, the people that have to pay the union wages, to g e t t h eir stuff produced have to have a big price on it to come out. And I guess the uni ons have done s orr.e good but I th ink it's done more dama ge than any k i. nd of good, taki ng all around. And I 've alwa ys been opposed to it and I guess I always will be. I 've had some people, some v e ry close friends belong. I n f a ct, some of my close relatives lost their jobs up her e on ac c ount of uni on. ~ hey hired so me back but some had to le ave. That's about all now,unless you want to ask questions. You can ask questions about anythi n g you want to. I ' l l do my b est to answer them. You we re sayi ng awhile ag o that one of the reasons you all c ame to M arion was because the farming wasn't all that good. Now, did you, your father owned the farm in M adison County but you said something about the soil th ere had been leached out, wouldn't grow very well. Could you have had part of that f arm yourself? No; there wasn't enough of it. There was just fifty acres. How many brothers did you have? I just had one • Just one brother? Only one of us could have l i ved on half of it. I t j ust wouldn ' t produce? No . It took the whole farm of fifty acres because it had been cleared up , mostly cleared up and worn out before my father bought it. M wife and father and mother, they had eight y c hildren when the y left there. He owned fifty acres, and his land was wore out. Most of it washed away up there in the mountains. It was steep cou ntry? Yeah . It was pretty straight up there • Is there any way to estimate what, say, it was possible to e a rn off of a farm of tha t size then? Well, you t ake a farm of tha t size, my f a ther was selling livestock and didn't mak e any grain to sell on that small place. Now, he did where I was raised, where he had so much land. But about, I 'd say about six hundred dollars a year was about wha t he got out of his livestock he had for sale. Of course, the �6. Q. living , he had his l i ving made there, he made it there. Didn't hav e to buy gr oceries or anything like that. About all the money he got was clea r to stick in his pocket, clear. 'Cause he made all his seed and in summertime he had pasture to run on. As far as having any money and investing it, why wit h out he too k a notion to buy so methi ng, he didn't have any at all. It was all cle a r. When I was a child on the farm, I was raised on, company land. I seen him in t h e fall of the year when lie'd sold his livestock, and wha t stuff he raised on his farm for sale, I ' ve known him sticking that money i n his pocket and going out over the country want i ng so mebody to loan it to. He didn't need it, didn't want it, didn't want to carry it. He got about six percent intere s t on it and he felt safer of course when he wasn't ca rryi n g it i n his p ocket. He just didn't want to carr y it arou nd. Go out and hunt somebod y to loan it to, and sometimes it was hard to do ••• Wasn't as much use for money then as ther e is or was later on, was there? A. No. Q. There wasn't mu ch you had to buy • The only person who would borrow it was somebody who wanted to add nore livestock. And of course, in them days, livestock all run outside, in the mountains, fenced up your fields. ~ ow in the mountain s it was ready to be put on the market in the fall. It got fat and was ready for t h e market . He just brought it off the r a nge and put it right on the market. An:i a year or two year-old ••• .Al,. End of tape #1, side 1 Beginning of side 2 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Your father owned tha t farm free and clear? Yeah , the last p lace. I n fact, that ' s the only p lace he ever owned. In M adison County? Yeah . He finally sold it out and came her e to Mari on too. So your family and your wife's family came to M arion? Yeah. Did they come for the expressed purpose of working in the mills? W orki ng in the cot t on mills. So you all pretty much figured it was, that staying on the farm of that size was not going to bring you suf f icient income to raise a family. Wel l , that wasn't my father's c oncern. He wasn't worrying about the income he made, he made as much money as he cared about. He wanted to get rid of the harder work. Working l n the cotton mill was not as hard work as running one of them mount ain farms. Of course, me and my brother wa s married. Just him and my mother we re living on the farm. He ca me here to work in the mill. Him and my mother both worked. M mother didn 't work too much y but she worked some. He sold out. He give ~35 0 for the place he owned. The feller except ed the timber but he had in the trade to saw him house timber. And he built a house out of great big boards, built a barn, cleared some land, built some fence. Kept it I don't know for how many years and he sold it for $2200. Aft er he comehere , a ft e r we all come here, he divided �Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. that $2200 with me and my brother, give me $1100 and give my brother $1100 . Of course, you take the mountain people who learn to do what they do themselves and lea rn how to do wi thout. And he saved money all the time,he laid money back all the time. Not much, but some that after a year or so it began to count up. He got enough money saved that he bought that place right across the road there where that house stood. He stared there for 12 or 15 years, I guess. When he retired,he got $ 22 a month and mother drawed off ofhim and she got half as much. 'he got $ 11. Both together got like $33 . Well , they laid away some of that every month, some of that $33 because they made everything we e a t r ight over there . This wasn't built up out in here as it is. It's farm country. There was one build i ng right out here, that house, and one out here on top of the hill. That 's all there was, just there at the top of the hill up yonder plumb down to Ne bo. Uns e ttled. How did you learn that the mil ls we re here? Well , I had friends tha t had left there and c orre here and worked. They came back home. vid they leave for the same reasons? Yeah , for the reasons coming to the co tton mill to work. When they came back home andyou learned from them, they were just visiting? Yes. I n fact, when me and my wife moved here there was a young man that we knowed had been h e re and worked and he came back with us. In 1918, when that awful flu ep:t.demic come in here. W was e here at c1·nchfield, and we had one ch i ld less than a year old who had flu. ('Wife speaks) No, we all had the flu and it looked ••• (Hicks r e sumes) No, it looked like it was going to be so long b e fore I could even get back to work, well, I had a little home ••• so we went back there and stayed a year and then come back. (wife speaks) Then we c ome back to the cotton mills . That would have been in the early 20 1 s? (wife) Yeah , the la st time we come back. And you came back th a t time to stay? Yeah. 1e been here ever since. I n this country, but not whe r e we'r e living. Here in McDowell County. The people who we re working in the mills during the early 20 1 s after you all came back, came h e re the second time, were they from McDowell County? No . M ost of the people in M cDowell County wouldn't work in ••• might few people from McDowell County that would work in the cot ton mills at all. Only a few people? Mighty few. It was a disgrace for people in this county t o work in a cot t on mill . I t was made up of mountain people. (wife speaks) That 's all it was •• ( inau d ible) (Hicks resumes) M adison, Haywood , Mitchell, Yancey, Avery , Watauga countie s. ost of the people that wo~ked here was from Haywood County where I come f rom. M ost of the people i n Clinchfield? Yeah . Some people would get maybe in debt back at home. Th ey had a home, but they'd get in debt and couldn't ••• an:l they'd come here, their whole f amily, go to work until they paid that debt. �8. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. When they paid t h is debt, they'd take off back home. Is it your fe e ling that the people that came here from the other counties to work in the mills came for the reasons you've said. That is, it was either impossible or hard to make a good living on the farm? Yeah . And the reason they came here was because they might find work a little easier and there was some more money? Yeah. In the end of the year, you co 1ld make more money up here in a cotton mill than you would out on the farm. But people lived hard. The houses were cheap. The house we l ived in, y ou co ld set in the house and see daylight almo yt anywhere you looked. W s that the mill house? a That was the mill h ous e . They'd have people ••• they finally at last sold them to the hands . Most all the houses repaired (inaudible) nd what did you pay for rent? 45 cents a week for a three-room house. nd wh en you first started in the mills, y ou were making somewhere near $10 a week? Yeah, around that. When people in, say, ~ adison County were looking around for something to do other than stay on the farm, wha t else could they have done, say, besides stay there or come to the mi l ls? Wa s there a lot of timbering back then? No , not then. When people began to c ome to the mills,the timber business was ove r with. Peop le had log , ed out all. the timber. What was the name of the comp any that owned all the farm where you were born? W as it a lumber company? No, it was just a big land company. Uptogo (?) I believe was the name of the company a nd then the Boise Hardwood Lumb e r Company finally bought the whole mountain. Boise? Yeah, Boise Hardwood Lumber Company . nd they built a narrowguage railroad up in them mountains and set their band mill at Hartford , Tennessee. ell, they were working on that when I left. Of course, I could have went to work for them but it was a little too rough, for me. I went down there and helped t h em clean off the ri ght of way for the railroad up Pigeon River. That was after me and my wife got married . And of course one thing that bluffed me out on it, everythin g in the whole country c ame in ther e to work. On that railroad? Yeah . Cutting timber and logg ing . Drunkards, murderers, everything else . I t wasn't no fit place I felt like to raise a family. And , I help ed clean off the right of way on Pigeon tliver. I-40 goes down through there. (wife speaks ) Where he was raised, now it's a game pres e rve. vhat' s the name of it? (Hi cks resumes) Yeah , in orth Carolina and part in Tennessee . Have y ou ever be en down I - 40? Yes sir. I know a fellow who lives out at t h e foot of l t. J;'.isgah. He 's out on the Pigeon River . Clark's his name (inaudible). 1 �A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A • Q. A • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. rr you went down I - 40, do you kn ow that W alters (?) dam, that dammed up P igeon River? uns the water through the moun ta _ns and comes out at 1v'a terville? 'r o a powerhouse? I know wher e the river's down below I - 40 there. But I don't remember it . Well , I don't guess you've ever noticed ••• (wife speaks) Did you see the powerhouse when you ••• ? (Hicks resu mes) W ell, back up t h is way there's a sign up there tm.t says the Harmon Den , on a post . I remember t hat . Well , right there, just a lit t le piece up that creek was wher e I was barned an d raised . That is up and down country , isn ' t it? Yeah . Good bit steeper t h an around here? I've t o ok peop le down through there and told them I helped clear off that right of way . The~ say I don ' t see how you stood up on that hill . And I could n t now of course , but I could then , when I was a young man . hey say people had one leg shorter than the other so they could stand on the ~ide of a hill . (pause) You said that when you came here you d i dn t h a ve to live in the mill village? No . You didn ' t ha re to but it was cheaper . And ther e weren ' t too many houses for rent other than in the mill village . or course , the cotton mill company wanted you to live in their houses . But you didn;t have to? No, you didn t have to • Did y ou have - to at East arion? No , you didn't exactly have to but they were the same way . They wanted them to live in them . (wife sp ea ks) They h ad bet t er houses at East 1arion . They did? (Hicks) ~eah . When you start e d out you were working ten hours a day, ri v e and one - h a lf days a week . Did that chang e much during the 20 1 s? At some point i n there you went to a 12- h our day . Ye ah . It changed a lot , now . or course, think t he.y start up n ow and run maybe ten hours and the day labor works eight . But , when I was runni ng frames on piece work , in the number two mill , it's the biggest mill, the one next to th e highway, there were 23 frame hands in th u t card room to maJ.re roping to make thread for yarn spinning . And they put in new machinery, bi gge r machinery , and the last time I was talk i ng to people that lived and was work i ng there , they got three hands doing what us 23 done . · 'hat is a stretch out isn't it? Yeah, that's a s t retch out . Did you start out working as ai. carder? Yeah , I went to runni~cards . What s being a carder? What does that mean? Well; that's where the raw c otton comes and you start it into roping, about the size ofyour finger . It first comes to the lap room . They make it into big round laps , runs through two machi nes im there . nd they take a lot of the waste out of it . And they make big laps and br i ng it in there and hang it on the backs or card s . And when the laps run out we laid it down on a roller , stuck the end of it i n there and it would conB through . �10. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. Q. • Q. A. Q. • Q. And we carded it and took a lot more waste out of it. and made that roping . Then we took that roping in cans to the drawing f r ames . Them drawing frames, they run it through two mach i nes there, front d r awing and bac k d.J:rawing. Then it went from there to what they called slubbers, gre a t bi g heavy work. That was the first piece work I ever did, running slubb ers. Then it went to the intermediates. Tha t wa s the job I run the most . nd they took the slubb e rs ••• (inaudible). Then we run it through them interme d iat e s a nd it cut it down to about fourth of tha t size. But we had to run two spools of cotton togethe r. That is , t~ of the same size. Then it went from there to tre spe eders. nd th ey had to run two together there . And tha t cut it down to a smaller thread . nd a stouter thread. fhen it went from th e re t o th e spinning room and the y respun it on spinning reels. l n the spinning room. Then it went from the spinning room into t h e weav e shop . Did y ou ever work in weaving? Yeah , I worked in weaving one ti e. First time I ev e r come her e I worked in the weave roo m. Did Clinchfield do any finishing then? Or print ing? No, they d i dn't do any fin ishing. Just white cloth • Did East ari on? Yeah . They finished cloth ov e r there. (wife sp e aks) They do now. I don't know whether the y used to ••• (Hicks resumes) They didn 't the n , when I was working in the mill, but the y do now. They make rayon and use man - made f i b e r over there. Let me ask you a question about the mills . Was it possible to move up in a job? Like to be a boss or foreman or something? W s that pr etty easy or were there so many people that it w s a hard to do? No, it wasn' t hard to do . It was easy to bu i ld up to it. I built up to that and wo uldn't take the job . Because I didn't feel like I could put up with the agg ravating help . I was pretty high -tempered . I knowed ~ e andthem was go i ng to have trouble, becau se t hey failed to do wha t they were suppos ed to do. ow when the bosses got on them, they'd argue back and they just wouldn't fire anybod y . About the only way they'd fire anybody was on account of bad char ct e r. I f he t u rned ou t to hav~ a bad character, why they ' d f ire him right on the spot. But doing bad work, they wouldn't necessarily fire ••• They wouldn't fire you for that. They'd c o me around and raise sand with y ou, but they wouldn't fire you for it. We re there plenty of jobs? W as there lots of people tryi n g to get in the mills then or was the re just a few jobs open? No. There was plenty of jobs. And a lot of peop le co me and there was h a rdly a n ybody come tha t didn't g e t a job. They was always ne eding help. 'l 'hat was du r ing the 20 1 s ? Yeah, because tha t was wh en t h e people wa s coming out of the mou ntains and off of the fa r ms and they s oon got dissatis f ied and went back home . Did a lot o f that happen? Lot of t h em come in, they 'd work a nd then they went back home? Yeah , they'd go back home and usually after they went back home and stayed a year, year and a half, two years , t hey'd come back. And pr ob ably stay the rest of th e ir lives th a t time. �11. Q. A. Q. • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Why did they go back to the farms i n the first place? W ell, because they'd got dissatisfied . Dissatisfied with the mills . (wife speaks) Some of them would come to work out money to buy more land with, or improve their land some . Oh , the y 'd come and get more money to buy a bigger farm? (Hicks resumes) Yeah . But them that did that, usually when they went back home, they stayed . But the ones that did come because they kinda got tired of farm ng , in fact young people, children, th ey all had to leav e the home to get a job. Why wa.s that? W ell , there weren't a ny jobs there , only just the farm • And -the farm would only support • .• That was the only sup p ort t here was, and the young peop le didn't much like it . They wanted payday coming in . You stayed i n Cl i nchfield pretty much duri n g the 20 1 s . Or did you ever work East Marion? Or one of the other mills? Yeah , I went ov e r th e re one time and worked with them awhile . t East Marion? Yeah , after I went out on the farm . I got some lei~ure and didn't h a ve nothing to do and I went back up to Clinchfield and they just didn ' t have nothing for me . They told me to go over to ~ st Marion and tell them that they sent me over there . And I went ov e r there a nd told the overseer that I 'd been sent over there to work about three weeks . He said, well I can't do nothing but put y ou to work here . Come in in the morning and work . So , I worked there thre e weeks . I I That would h a ve been during the 30 s, wouldn t it? No, that was in the early 40's . That was after I'd moved and bought that farm . Ioved out on that farm . It was after c rops was laid by and everything was over . 1 But up to that time that you all left during the early 30 s , you stayed in Clinchfield? Yep. I was in Clinchfield . At the time y ou left Cli n chfield , how many hours a week wer e you working? I was wo rking 55 . 55 . Do you remember wha t you were bringing home in pay then? Do you rememb e r what y ou were being paid? Yeah . I was makin~ $18 . ?S (inaudible) . But inthe early 30 s they we re c ut ting back hours and ••• Yeah . (wife speaks) ••• ri ght after the war , the First W orld War • We re the wages during the 20 1 s pretty much steadily going up? No, they didn't go up fast . ow , I might AO a I little politicking . I I don t know what your politics are . But that s all right . I like you just as g o od to be one as the other . nd , right after World War One , let's see , who was elected? arren G. Harding . · ell , after the election was ov e r with , they c ome around and cut me down to 85 cents . After the electi on, I was cut down fran a doll a r . Why was that? Just because t hey could . And I don 1 t knov if poll tics had any thing to do with it or not. But I always blamed Warren · G. Harding for it . Because he was president when I got cut . Were the bosses trying to tell you how to vote? W ell , up here at Clinchfield , they wanted you to vote straight De mocrati c tick e t . And if you wasn ' t a Democrat , you didn ' t fare too g ood . �12. Q. A. Q. A. • • Q. Ji But you could get a job if you we re ••• ? Oh y eah. You could get a job and stay, but they giv e you the c old shoulder if you wasn't a Democrat. Do you know if that wa s the same thing at East ari on? Yeah, t h e same thin g at East 1ari on. They wanted you to be a Democrat~ Yeah. But now at Drexel Furniture Factory I worked at, you h a d to be a Republican to get any favor up there. They wanted you to vobe a straight Republican ticket and all my overseers was Republican. They led me pretty high . Wh en Nixon wa s running against ~enne dy, they come around, several of them, and t old me that they'd done found out that ixon was going to be elected so I 'd better turn ove r and vote for him. I told t h em he wo uldn't be elect ed, thi;t I d i dn't think so, that he wruld. o I had it I back in my favor. Of course, I didn t rub it in on any of them, after Kennedy was elected,you know , and Nixon got beat. But I never could understand how Nixon ever could get elected. Then after this Water ate mess, he got elected like all therest of them do because he had plenty of money or the people that h a d I the money was backing him ••• (inaudible). But it wasn t too long a f ter that that I got on piece work. ow when you went in there running c ards like I started running cards, they'd tell you that if there was anything you'd rather do besides the job you had, when you got a few minute s off your job, go and work a t it. nd help the hand that was running it. And as quick as y ou got to where they thou ght you could run that job, pretty well, why they 'd giv e it to you . Give you this same kind of job. The turnover in the work was awful fast ••• (inaudible). Do you know why t hat wa s? That t h ere was so much turnover? W ell, one thing was, they began that stretch-out system. Of course, it wasn't too bad at that time, but it started in that direction and the people that come from 0 outh Caroli n a up here, just droves of them. I n fact, all our overseers was fro m ~outh Carolina. (inaudible) And they'd co me here and they didn't like North Carol ina. They didn't like the temperature and they d idn't like the people, didn't like the mills, didn't li~e nothing about it. Well , they wou ldn't stay long before they'd go back to South Carolina. And they might co me back aga i n. 3ome of them did. Of course, some come and stayed. ow all the ove rse e rs up there was fr om South Carolina. And I said awhile a g o where I was off e red an overseer's place, you had first to start off, they c alled it a fixer. You had to keep the machinery repaired. They held you res p on sible for the work, the machinery. And some people would get c areless and make bad work and when they got on them ab out it, they'd swear that the machine wasn't working right. So then they'd g et the fixer up and they'd give him a bawling out. And when the fixer got on to the help, for the work, why they (inaudible) to tell him what they thought of him. A~d they didn't hesitate to speak with him. I heard them talk to the fixers and that was why I was glad li wasn't a fixer after I heard what they said. Then you went from there to what you called a second hand. He was over the fixers. nd he had a boss carder over him, and a lot of them went on to be the boss carder, the boss weaver, and the boss spinner. After the old ones all died out. End Tape #1 Begin Tap e #2, side 1 �13 . Q. A • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • You were saying that the fellow you bought thi s land here from was telling you that the bus i nessmen i n larion didn ' t want the Clinc hfield mills to come in here? No, they didn ' t want it to c ome . The people here knowed that their people wasn ' t going to work at it . And then they regretted the people t hat it brought in . ( i naudible) too many bad peop le . But they fell in love with them old mountain people , when the y come here . They found them to be truthful and honest . Whi c h they didn ' t exp e ct them to be . rrl they liked them . Got along wi th the m and r e s pect e d them . You were s aying that a lot of people who might hav e been av ailable in McDowell County to work i n the mills didn ' t . You ever find out why? No . W ell , they just , it was a disgrace . They consid ered it a disgr a ce , to work in the c otton mills . That was the people who were , say , farmi n g here in McDowell Coun t y? Yep . They lived around here , they was born and raised here , and they lived hard . They lived a whole l o t harder than they would if they ' d have worked in the mills . But they just c ouldn ' t take a bossman . They didn ' t want no boss i ng . So they eked out a li v ing out in the soil . And a f e w of them , a l o t of them , work ed on the side and made a little blockade liquor . Most of them ended up inthe chain gang before it was over with . They'd just rather live off of what the y could make out o n the farm . You farme d ••• You we r e on a farm in adison County and a farm in this ar e a . Woul d farming have b e en any eas i er or more profitable here? Oh y e s . It was more profitable he r e , of course . I f a rmed with a man that had an extra good farm . t had been well took c a re of and handed down thr ough his grandfather . nd he finally (i n audible) . He was a M urphy . And his grandfather at one time had owned 100 Negro slaves . And he built bri c k houses and burnt the bri c k on the place where he built the hou se s for the colo red people . • hey finally come on down to Condre y (?) , t h e g randson and gr a nddaughter . There were two granddaughters and one grandson a ndth em three got all his property . Was tha t this property , here , or · n Dysartsville? No , it was this here . I don ' t know , it was about fi v e or six hundred acres , all told . Arrl he had a riv e r farm but the Duke Power Company bought his river l a nd and put water up on it . nd he heired a lot of wealth from his mo t he r. (wife speaks) She was a M urphy and married a Condrey . (Hi c ks r e sumes) Arrl he had plenty of mcn ey and he was a hard man to get any of it out of . He stuc k to it . I n the 20 1 s and JO's , when you were in the mills , were there any black people work"ng i n the mills? Nothing only the scrub b ers . The y h ired a colored man to scrub and (inau d ible) • Then it must h a ve been co pany policy not to h i re bla c k people ? Yeah . Jell , them mounta i n people - wh e r e we re you raised at , in the mounta i ns or down in the cou ntry? Down farther east . ell , I can g iv e you a little informati on about that . ow , them W mountain people was awful op p os ed to the colored people . hey didn ' t allow them in the mountains . If one went back th e re , they killed him . And the peo ple that was work i ng in the mills would have left if they ' d ever put a colored pe rson in there �J.4. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.. A. Q. running a nything other than scrubbing. Scrub b ing the floors (inaudible). Now they're using some of them now, but they couldn't back then b e cause t h e people wou ldn't bear for it. Up to the time when, you left the mills, there were no black people work ing ••• No black people in th e re. Only the scrubbers. During the 20 1 s and before you left the mills, how were mill workers, people tha t worked in the mills like yourself, how were they treated around town? When you went to town to do some shopping or something? Wel l , they was high ly respected by the bus · nesses in town because the bus i nesses in town knowed that Wu S where their mo ney was comi n g from. And they knowed they was go i ng to get ev e ryt h ing that the mill peo p le got ahold of. So where busin es smen might h a ve opposed the mills coming in, they were happy once the mill workers were here spending their money? When they was getting the money. nd the peo p le that was opposed to it ever be i ng put here was happy about it once it got here. Another thing. You were say ing ear lier that at some point some of your bosses, i mmediate bos s es, were from South Carolina. Yeah . W ell, the main overseer was. Was that true most of the time during the 20 1 s and early JO's? Why was that? Did they ••• ? Well , they ••• North Carol i na peop le didn't know the cotton mills. And you know that ' outh Carolina was full of cotton mills and everybody worked the cotton mills down there. (wife speaks) They didn't raise no cotton in orth Carolina much . (Hicks resumes) And they knowed the mills . And sev e ral of them ••• my overseer and a lot of the other overse e rs, the main overse e r, when they found out that the mills was going to come here to arion , they took correspo ndence co u rses in textiles. So they come prepared to •• educati on for work and all . ~nd they really could handle the cot on mill machinery . l'hey really coul d. I mean in running the mac h i nery. aking rope and thread and stuff like that. It seemed to be na tural, b e c a use they had be en raised with it. Do you know where Clinchfield and East ar i on got most of the raw cotton they proces s ed? Well , they got it out of the main market . The c otton market. (inaudible) that bought and sold to these companies ••• (w ife speaks) It come from South Carolina mostly ••• (Hic k s resumes) W ell , most of it did (inaudible) Anywhere t hey raised cotton. Now , a t the time of the Depression , big cotton farmers come ·here to try to sell t h eir cotton direct to the companies. Did t hat work? No. Th e company wouldn't b u y it. They to l d t h em to sell it to these companies and they'd rebuy it from thEm. Shipped up here by the carlo a d, one carload after another . Why wouldn't they buy it direct? Well , they had a standing contra ct with these bi g companies and naturally the peo p le that have the mo ney get th i ngs dore the way they wanted done. The big cotton-buying co mpanies that bought the cotton and then s old it to, say, Clinchfield . Do you know wher e they wer e ? ere they in Balti more? Or New York? W �A. Q. A • Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. W ell , they was way off somewhere . I don't k now for sure where the y was at, but t h ey s e nt men i n at the fall of th e year , you know, t o bid on the ~o tton for ginning . There never was but one cotton gin in North Carolina that I know of . It wa s down near crest City . It's gone out of business , I thin k , now . It was a small unit. Let me ask you another que s ti on about that strike in 1929 . About how many peo p le in C1inchfield were part of the union or supported the strike? I ' d say about , there was about one f::l:fth :,at Cli nchfield . Of course there wa s more than tha t at East M ari on . And there was about 70 0 p e ople at work in Clinchfield? Then , in 1929? Yes . At Cl "nchf ield, at the mill . And I don ' t know how many worked at East ari on . It was a smaller mill than either one of these up here . But there wa s about half of the people at East arion that claimed for it . Finally got two or three kil l ed over there . Why was it that the workers at East arion supporte d it more than at Cl i nchfield? I don ' t know ••• I never have be e n able to understand that . It r eally was a bett e r place to work t b an Clinchfield. t was? Yeah , it was . Was it better in t e rms of the mo ney you made or •.• ? o, it wa s not the money but the work : ng conditions was bett e r . You said earlier that the mill village at East Hari on had better houses? (wife speaks) Yeah. (Hicks speaks) W l l , East t arion had better e homes for the people to live in . (wife r esumes) ••• loo ked nicer on the outside . I never have been in one of them . before . Did you all know many of the peop le tha t worked at East Mar ·o n? Yeah . I knowed a lot of the m. I knowed some of them well , one of the old men that got killed was from Clinchfield . Do you remember his name? Yes . He was a Vickers . I knew him well . Sam Vi c kers? Yeah . (wife speaks) He co . e from D ~ sartsville to the cotton mills . (H ick s resumes) He got into the union . And some of them w&s so stubborn that they wo uldn't have went back if the company had told them to . But the most of them they wou ldn't let come back . M ost of them th a t joined the uni on? Yeah . nd they come around , I lived up here at Clinchfield at that time, and they co me around one morning with a bi g old mega phone horn , around in a car . I was just getting ready to go to work . They was hollering that everybody at East ar i on had been run off . Ev e rybody at East M arin has been run off . Tha t 's all they said . W ell , the people h ere from Cl i nchfield , well , that joined the uni o n and was sticking to it , t h e y just took off ar:rl went over there . But when they got there , why people was bunched up into two bunches, union here and the non- uni o n up here • And there was so me people, somehow, I don't k now how they d one it , some of them had got in the mill . nd they was up in the card room , up in the spinning room top floor , and they got a rifle in the re . And the union f i nally at last went to sho oting guns (inaudible) �16. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. And there wa s three peop le killed. One wa s old man J ona s. e was from East lar ion. Old Sam Vickers and I forget the other fel l er's name . (wife) He was a g ood old man, Vickers was. (Hic k s res u mes) Yes , he was. He just got into that union. e liv ed,he had a home, he had a farm in Dysartsville. And he had left it to come up here, but he was raised in hutherford County . ~ nd he c ome up here and went to work. Had a great big bunch of girls. (inaudible) Who wa s it ••• how was t h e union organized at Clinchfield? LJid they get a couple of t h e workers to go a round and talk to each person abou t joining? Yeah . They first went to h olding a meeting about halfway b etween Clinchfield and East r i on. nd a few of the Cli n chfield peop le went out there and they liked what the o ld man promised them. Promtsed t h em shorter hou rs and higher wages. If one of them d i dn t like the boss, they'd run him off. So forth and so on. They was going to appoin t common workers to be the hea4 man. nd there was one old man, he was a Baker, and he didn t know a thing l n the world about a card room. He could run, i fi the picker r oom making them first laps. But that was about all he k nowed. But they t o ld him if he joined t h e union, they'd make him a boss carder. ' o before the mill closed down, he come around to the card room there and he off e red me a second hand job if I 'd come work for him when he got t hy place. I told him, oh yeah, yeah. Of course, I knowed he wasn t going to get placed . And so he g ot run off thinking that I -wou ld have been his boss man if he had gotten the job they offered him. nd he couldn ' t have run the (inaudible) , much less the card room. And the peop le got to talking it up, the ones that, had joined. Of course, they was I awful secretive about it. rhey didn t want many people to know at Clinchfield. And ••• They were afraid of losin g their jobs? Yeah. They was afraid of losing their j obs. Out they'd t a lk it a lit t le and the strikers got gathering up at night after we went back to work and they'd sh oot dynamite all night. 1 ight around the mill villag e. Hard for a ma n to sleep. I can tell y ou one pretty goo~ tale about that. I don't knew whether we ought to go into that or not. But there wa s a fel le r when them strikers, he had a little old dog ab out the size of that one and they'd t rained it to t h row st i cks and it would go and get them. Bring them back. That feller decided to get even with them. e got him some dynamite and he loaded up a stick one night and throwed it down toward the ra i lro a d. ell, that little dog seen him throw it and he went and got it and brought it back. Got it back into his yard before it exploded. I asked him , I said if, ever find any of your dog . And he said no I never did find a p iece of it. Blowed it all away, (wife spea k s) inaudible . I was read i ng in the newspaper in 1arion , had stories abou t the strike and there was one thing I wa s reading about . Said they had caravans d u ring the strike when both the mills were closed down, ca ravans of farmers that we r e br:k:ging food i n for the strikers. Do you know who organized them, or why? Yeah. A lot of them did. The strikers organized it, but, they got it started . But they made the farm e rs think they was winning, go ng to win, and it would be up to them to buy the farm e rs' food wh en ev e rything was over. lild a lot of people ••• �17. Q. A. Q. A. that wa s the day of th e horse and wagon and a lot of farmers would bri ng a wagon-load of food in to the strikers and park somewhere and they'd come and get it . Then the union went to order i ng when they got out of any thing to eat. The strikers all had a good garden. Everybody at Clinchf ield had a good garden . And the strikers, the union man told them t o divide their gardens with peo p le that didn't have any. W ell, they'd come in the r e, they'd pick tomatoes, they'd p ick potatoes , they p i ck a row of corn, and in a day or two's time the y could clean his garden out. nd they went to Hoffman , the head man , and told him that they had to have something to eat. lild he ordered a carload of flour. It come, and people told me that had a right to know , they said it was from great .big rolli n g mills where they'd sweep up of a tjight the flour that had sifted out on the floor. They put it in bags and he ordered it. The people that seen it, I never did see it , they said it was just as black as tar. People got to eating that and the y all got sick. But the farmers in the outlying areas were willing to do that because they ••• Yeah , t hey thought ••• the uni on had them thinking that the y were just going to take over. And they was going to help most of them people buy their products when it was all over with. rnd they'd bring it in just to give out to them. You were saying earlier that some peo ple at the Clinchfield mills had sort of taken you i nto their confidence and were telling you how everything was going to work. Was that y our supervisors? Yeah . No, not my supervisors. Me and him was very close together and he kept me i nformed all the time what wa s going to happen . I know the union c.ome to me, sent a special group , come to my h ouse right late one evening. tl nd they told me that they was giving me, since they liked me , they was giving me my last c hance to join t he union . And i f I didn't, I was going to have to leav e . Going to r u n me off if I didn't join the union. And I knowed then that th ey was the ones that was goi n g to lea ve, and I was going to stay. Th e way they come about it, they kind of tole me now since y ou are a special friend of ours, we're giving you a special c hance to join the uni on. You c an get in without p aying any dues or anythi ng for so long . And I said, well, I pretended gnorant i n it. Of course, I co u ldn't say nothing else. I asked them, I said well, what am I promised1 They said s h orter hours and higher wages. I said, well, when do I go to work? I 'm ready to g o to wor k for shorter h ours and higher wages. I pretended that I thought theunion was going to pay it, you know . They said, n o, we're just going to make the company do this . I said, well, if you ' re go ing to make the company do that, I can do just as good a job at that as you can. ~ o just count me out. I won't fool with it . nd the loyal help up there , the y made it so hard on the strikers after we all got back to work, after the mills was running, they mad e it so hard on the strikers that they j ust pulled up and left as fast a s t hey cou ld get away . The company used so me tri cks too . They went down here somewhere about outh Caro lina and the y got the roug hest old man and the sweari ge st o ld man and the most profane old man I ever saw and �18. Q.1 ., A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. he loaded up some household g oods i n a stati o n wagon. i nd the union didn't think nothing. He come right on throughthe strikers. And went to the office. They t ook back ovec there and showed him an e mpty house and he put that stuff in that hou s e. 'l hey locked the door. W ell, the uni on found out . Uow I was working at the time up in the card room. I didn't do much work. I stayed at the window to watch them mostly. I seen everything that happened. They'd done had the soldiers up here in town, but hadn't brung them down. They went over there, and t here was an old man, a good old man, agood friend of mine. ound the door locked, they didn't k now wha t to do. He said it wou ldn't do to let that old man move in there. So that old man that I 'd put so much faith in, he took a stick and he broke the lock off tre back door of that house. Was it the h ouse he was living in? The house t his old man had put his stuff in . He just , he put it in the re a nd he left. nd they carried that stuff out there and throwed it across the hi ghway. I n front of the mill. And the company sent a wagon team out there to get it. W ell, when they got out there, when they got to doing that, two big old mules, and they got them mules by the bridles and everyone had a club. And they got to beating them m ules ove r the head and most everywhere. (wife speaks) The un i on people. (Hicks resumes) And they wouldn't let t h em come back. So that's when the soldiers, they brou ght the soldiers in. nd they said, the union said, the so l diers was here to see that the rest of us left. That was what they said. Well , the soldiers corre down here and they, with fix ed bayonets, a n d they went to putting half of them this way and half of them the other way. One old man- I could se e h im fro m where I wa s at-he stood his ground. He wa sn't going to run, a nd o ne of the soldiers give him a good poke in the backside with that bayonet and I mean tha t old man could outrun a mule af t er that. He just left there . fini then the soldiers stayed up there for about a week. (wife) Se ems to me they stayed lo n ger than that. Why was it the company went and got that feller from ~outh Carolina and brou ght him her e with his furniture? It was after we had went back to work. And then after trey p ut his household goods back, they brought some more. Then he cane he r e and they worked him ab out a month. I was glad when he left . He was ••• (wife speaks) but he said why did they, why d d they have h im t o come? (Hicks resumes) Well , they had him to come for j ust exactly what happ ened. They knowed that the strikers would tear his stuff up. Oh . '.!.'hey wanted to get the strikers to do sore thing, to provoke them? Yeah . ~ o the soldiers would come. Yeah . And tre soldiEr s, they'd told them t h e y wouldn't c ome down here, trey was already up here in the courthouse. But they wouldn't let t h em come without there was some violence erupted somewhere. And they went and got that old ••• and he was the feller that got it started. Was the r e anythi n g el s e you co u ld rem ember abo ut whether or not the company had a plan to deal with the union? Did the y tell you other things that they might have thought about doi n g? Well , t h e¥ just aimed to be · t them. That was all there was to it. They d i dn t aim to run under a union . nd the Cli nchfield company �19 . Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. • Q. • Q. A. did know that they h ad enough lo yal help to start up. ~hey knowed it wouldn't be no trou ble to g e t e n ou g h . nd they just d idn't aim to run under a uni on. And that old man, bri nging him in, he was the feller t ha t tur ned the tide. He brought the soldiers, he help ed brin g the soldiers, arrl tm soldiers could break t h e pickets at the gate? Yeah. W ere there a n y other k i nds of tr i cks l i ke that th a t either side used, that you could recall? W ell, not very much , I don't reck on. Now, t he company, after they g ot back to work, the union members that was still in com pany hou s es, they notif ied them to g et out. nd some of them left and the most of them didn't. nd they went a nd put their stuff out i n the street. Or on the side of tbe street. t he c ompany a nd the law did. Evicted them? Just piled it up on the si d e of the street. W ell, the uni on people they s ome h ow found some kind o f house a nd some of them went back home. The y was all fr om the mountains. nd some of them went bac k home and some of t h em found a house. I had one of my mother's brothers got into t h e union and one of my daddy's brothers g ot i nto it. nd my daddy's brother lived way down h ere a t ebo. And he was go ing back a nd forth to work. And they fired him. And my mother's b r other, they got him a house over the r e s omewhe re. And he went there and lived until he could find a place t o mo v e. He went ou t on the f a rm. ' tay ed th ere as l ong as he lived. I s the re a nything that made the people that join ed the union any dif f erent fro m t h o s e that didn't? I mean, were they like fr om a diff e r e nt a r ea? Or did t h ey have anything in common? ell, they was all fro m th~. mounta i ns. But the ones tha t I k now e d W from t h e mountains a nd back i n where we co ne from was co n sidered to be boss y and ov e rbearing. That was the way . the y l o oked on t h em back there at home. W ere they the ones that joined the union? Yeah. They was t h e ones that join ed the union. And th ey was people that had had their way where they'd lived. ~ ecause people was afraid of them. Sort of bossy and mean? They were bossy and overb e a r i ng. 1 W ere t h ey y ounger tha n tm people that didn t join the union? Wa s there any age difference? No, they were mostly middle-age peop le that joined. Mostly families, that had a man at the head of t he family. nd of course the b osses had always made t h em mad. h ey'd come around arrl bawl them ou t about somethi ng. W ere t h e y g ood work ers? Or were they poorer workers t han t h o s e that didn't join the uni o n? W ell, they just d o n e wha:; they had to do. uot by with anything the y cou ld. he ones tha t I knowed. Did any of your close friends join t h e uni on? Yeah • We re you all still clos e friends t h en? Yeah. I never did hold that against t h em, because some of them I talked to, I t old t h e m I said now I don't believe in t h e u nion. I don't want t h e uni ons. rlut you do ••• n d of Tape # 2, s i de 1 Be gin Tape #2, side 2 �. . 20. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. l'i.. Q. • Q. A. • A. Q. A. After they broke the strike and broke the union, were most of those people that was in Clinchfield that were in the uni on, they eventually g ot them o u t of the mill? They run them out one way or the other? · Yeah. Some of than t ore up their houses before they left (inaudible). How did the company ••• did they just fire them or make it rough on them? They just fired them. Right off. ost of them. Fired most of them~ Yeah. Vo you k now where they went? W ell, they scattered about everywhere. ~ome of them went out through the coun try around through M cDowell County and some went back to Madison , Haywood , Mitchell County, very Cou nty, Y111 cey, back in there where they care from. 'ome of them stayed around McDowell County as long as they 1 ived. 1:y uncle ••• both my uncles did. Of course, my daddy's brother, he owned a home h e re at Nebo. nd worked in the mills I don't know how many years. A lot l onger than we had. He ha.d a great big bunch of g irls and they all worked (wife) They still live around here. (Hicks . resumes) They give him what they got for their work. It was the change that come in their ticket. Say they drawed a ticket for $10.50. He give them the 50 cents. He took the $10. That's the way most of the parents did. ~nd he saved up enough money to buy him a home. He had it when he died. A lot of tte parents, they just let the children pay so much board. Was there a lot of women that worked in the mills? Ye ah. There was more women than there was men. M ore women than men . Did they do pretty much the same jobs that the men did? Yeah . About the same thing. LJid they get paid about the same? Paid the same. All except n ow the rough end of the card room where I was. L ike the carders, and drawers and intermediates. '.l'hey was run by men. But the f i ner spinners, the speeders, that made the f ner yarn, they was all most run by women. Did they also work i n weaving? Yeah. Abcut as many women as there was men in t h e weaving. What about ••• what d id the women do? uid they join the union in about equal num bers, or were there fewer women? No. Th ere wasn't hardly any joined • The union was mostly men1 Yeah . Was that true at East larion too? No . I thi nk it was a loy of women joined over there. I tell you ••• That thing's off now ain t it? You got it cut off now ain't you? No. It 1 s still on. You want me to stop it? No. I don't care anybody knowing what I got, was fixi ng to say. Th e re was one of our next-door neighbors up there at Cl inchfield. And he joined the union and he had a little ch ld take sick. A little girl, and he sent after me one evening to come out there as quick as I could. And I got out there and him and his wife left the r o om with a little child, and asked me to go in there and stay with it. And ~ went in there and it died in five minutes after I got t here. W ell, he had a sister that lived at East arion. Her �21. Q. A. husband belong ed to the union ove r there and they hadn't never went bac·k to work. And everybody that belong ed to theunion seemed to think that if you didn't belong to it y ou ought to be afraid of it. fraid of physical dama g e. He asked me, he said Perry are you afraid to go to Ea.st M ari on? I said no sir, I ain't afraid to go to East M ari on. He said you go over there, told me what house his sist e r lived in and tell my sister to come over here 1 that baby's dead. So I went to the house and pecked on the door 1 and she come to the door and I told her my business. hat her brother's baby had died, s ent for her. She said, well, I'll have to se e my husband. He's down there on the picket line. That was before East Mari en had ever started up. Said, I 1 11 h a ve to go down there,and se e him. Sa id I guess you're afraid to go down there, ain t you? I said no, I a i n't afraid to go nowhere. I said get in the car and I'll go down there. I went down there an:i she hunted her husband. evera.l of them c an e, eight or ten foot of my car with t h eir clubs. And they was looki ng at me awful mean, but they never said nothing. And she talked to her husband and then she come back and got in the car and I too k her back over ther e to her brother's. And when I was a young man up there at Clinchfield, I was a man that everybody looked to for everything. I had to hunt the doctor for all the people. I had to dig graves for everybody, and I had to hunt preachers t o preach at funerals, and I had to, well, they just looked on me as a fre e riding horse. 0 o one n i ght, so me feller pecked on the door and I went to the doo r and he said Perry, my wife's having a baby m d I can 1 t get none of my uni on men to go a fter t h e doctor. aid, will you go? I said sure, I 'll go. ~ o I put on my clothes and went out there and got in the car. I had an old T- model Ford. He said, now are you afraid to go to the head man? He lived over there between the r e and Clinchfield. Said, are you afraid t o go to his house? I said not a bit in the world. owe went to his house andhe pecked on the door and his wife come to the door and said he was over at union headquarters on ~ orehead idge. That wa s a Negro secti on. He c ome back and said that man's over at the union headquarters and I guess you're afraid to go over there, ain't y ou? I said no, I a i n't a bit afraid. Said a re you su r e~ I said I 'm v e ry sure. So he g ot i n the car and we went over there to that union headquarters. That whole hilltop was covered up witq people. ind he went in the old bu i lding there. I t had be en an old store buildi ng. Found t h at man. And they had to get an order fr om the u ni on bef ore they could get a doctor. He went in there and got t hat order and brou ght it back and we went up to tov n to an old doctor. He's b e en dead a good many years, and he wa s an old country doctor. Name wa s Jonas. And we went to his house and call ed him out. He promis ed to come. But I went through them any time I took a noti on to. Part of the time I was mad e n ough to bitten through nails and part of the time I was a mused, I was tickled at them. ~hen you would go through the picket lines ? I went through the picket l i nes. Another thing I ' l l tell · you. They had t he roads blo c k ed. W ouldn't l e t anybody in. W ell, my �22. Q. A. Q. A. Q. brother come down through there and me and my wife and family was over at my daddy's on the other side of the mill • .And my brother asked me, s a id have the y se rched your car yet? I said no. He said, well, they will before you get home. He said t h ey searched my car, and we both had an old t ouring car with a cloth top. And of course, that finished making me mad. I didn't have too much farther to go . I told him, y ou get right behind me and I 'll show you how to go throu gh them. And my wife's brother had t ook two old F ord c a r horns and tore them up and put them together. Put it on my car and it made the awfulest racket you ever hea rd. So he got right behind me and I started. I had a 1 926 T-model Ford . And we crossed the railroad switch that goes down to Clinchfield. W ell, that crowd was all up there, men and women playing (inaudible) , hav l ng a bi g time. nd the farther I went, the mad d er I got. So I blowed that old horn and it went l i ke a railroad whistle. .And they all turned one another loose and just reached around and picked up them clubs. They h a d them setting aga i nst the bank and the y watched the road. And tha t's one time tha t o l d car run good. Just seemed like it wanted to run g ood. I poured the gas to it, and it was the wnong thi ng to do. And I went through tha t crowd. They just spread li k e water. I got to the foot of the hill and told my wife, said I 'm g o i ng to stop and go back the re. I might have hit somebody. I 'm sorry that I done that. She commenced to beg me to go on, s a id y ou'll just g et in a fight. Just go on, go on. So I went on home. I said, you reckon I hit anybody? He said, I don't know, but he said they was three and four double deep on the side just as I come through . Bu t he said that ro d was ope n, but they was all piled up on the side. (wife speak s) They j ust jumped out of the way. You brushed one man . (Hicks res umes) A few d a ys after tha t, I was off , going back. The y stopp ed a man , wouldn't let him g o in. I pu l led right up against him. So they told him he'd have to back out, and go back. Wouldn 't let h i m go in at all. And he started backing into me and I just blowed that old horn and held my ground. Some of them come back there and looked. Said, let him through , let him t h rough. I t's this craz·y man back here . He' 11 kill a bunch of us if we don 1 t let him t h rough. So they let him through, go on, but they followed h i m ove r there. F irst place he could t u rn around , t h ey made him turn around and go back (wife spea k s) They was afraid they was brirgtng i n new hands to the mills, that was wha t ••• Oh . New worke rs to repla ce the strikers? (Hi cks resumes) Yeah. ~ hat was what they was trying to sto p . ew hands coming in. (wife speak s) But they never did try to s top us no more . Why we lived on cotton mill hill a nd we had to go out sometime. (Hick s resumes) ow when the soldiers come, they sea rched my ca r every time I took it out. (inaudible) Even raised the back seat and raised t h e tr unk lid. Looked u nder the hood and ev r y t hing . Wha t we re t h ey looki ng for? They wa s looking for weap ons. Dynamite? Ye a h . And pistols and ev erythi n g . F irst morning I went in the mill after t h e soldiers come, the y stopped me abou t seve ral hundr ed yards from the mill a nd wanted to search me. An d I needed a poc ke t k nifle on my job, to cut roping. nd he searched me and found my p ocket knife . He said, now I 1 11 have to take that • I �23 . Q. A. . Q. • Q. said well , I don 't know h ow I'm going to do withou t my pocket knife . I said , no way I can get it in there? He s a id you might put it in y our shoe . So I just reached down and stuck it in my shoe . '.L ook it in there . But I left it in there . I wouldn ' t brin g it back out . They was afraid sorr:ebody would take a weapon i n there . (wife speaks) An d they ' d g e t to fighting (Hicks res um es) They sent us word o ne eveni ng from East Marion thEt the y was comi ng over there a nd going to run ev e rybody out of the place . Who was going to do that? That was the union at East arion . And they brought us the word . W ell, there wa s p lent y of broom handles in there . mi we had to make , call t h e m brush sticks . Take a bro om handle and whittle it off and cut notches in it, and make a brush out of that waste (inaudible) . To clean up under the machine ry with . And everybody went to work , some cut the brush off the handle . Some found a bro om handle . And the feller that had the little dog that carr ied the dynamite ba ck to the house , he bro u ght him in there •• g ot h i m a railroad tap off a joi n t on the railroad . He had it n there m.d he whittled down his broom handle and put that tap on the end of the broom handle . I watched him fix it . nd we wa s go n g to meet th em out at the h e ad of the stairs . I told h i m, I sai d when we go ou t there a n d me e t them people , I'm going ri ght behind y ou . He said why? I said , well , there won ' t be nobody left for me to hit after he gets through with that nut. nd they had the picket line all around our mill . 'l'he railroad switch was down t h rough there. W ell, a lot of them mean bo y s wou ld g e t nuts , a nd the re was always plenty of old wore out nuts off of the machi nery . They could get a poc k etful . They slip 1 up ther e and they'd throw them up at the windows . hey hurt several people that wa y . But that felle r brought h i m a nut off the railroa d . (wife speaks ) W s he aimi ng to throw it at s omebody? (Hicks resumes) Yeah~ And they'd pick up the nut wh en it c ome a nd they' d go to the off ice and report it . nd they c ru ld look at the nut and tell where it come from . W h a d an of f ice e in o ur own depar tment. One old mean boy n the r e , good old boy but devilish . And he went so mewhere and took a wrenc h and he took him a ••• got h i m a nut off ••• Come back in there a nd told me , said you come over here nd watch what I ' m going to do. And I went over there and of cou r s e he h i d there i n the window a nd they couldn't see . He throwed that old big railroa d nu t out there . He d idn't hit anybody, but come ri ght clo s e to . They run a nd rabb e d it up and look ed at it and we co uld see them . nd he said I 1 m wo nd e r i ng if they k now wha t wi ndow that cane out of. He got it off the railro a d . Let me try to get the time stra i ght in my mi nd . You c a me to the mills firs t in 191 9 ? I guess it wa s 1 1 8 • 1 91 8 . And t h en you a ll lived in the mi ll villag e? And then you went b a c k to M adison County? S ta;yed a year and then you come back? Mov ed back i nto the mill vil l age , and t h en so metime during the 20 1 s, y ou mo ved h er e ? �24 . A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. • • • Q. Q. No . Not here . Dysartsville? I first went out on a farm over across the hill, here adjoining Lake James . I rented it from an old feller . That wa s old man Condrey . When wa s that? What year were you out there? Now that was in the 20 1 s . (wife speaks) No, that was in the 30's . (Hicks resumes) Was it? (wife) Yeah, because Lois was a little baby . Shew as born in 1930 and we moved between then and 1932 . (Hicks) ow, about the time she was a year old. (wife) It was ab out inaudible) when we moved out on the farm . ~ o , did you all then live in the mill villag e all thew ay during the 20 1 s up to the 30's? Up to th e 30's when we went out there . No , I bought a little farm down here at Nebo and we quit the mill and went out ·and stayed about a year . And ••• (wife sp e aks)But you worle d 'in the mill. (Hicks resumes) But I worked in the mi l l . went back and forth . And then you finally left the mills in about 31 or 32? To go ••• Yeah . We staye d ou t five years . And t h en you come back to Drexel? nd then I went back to Clinchfield . nd I worked several years t he n and then I bought that farm in Dysartsville . (wife) Th~ was in 1939 . (Hicks r e sumes) I t was in the early 40's . It was just abou t the time that W orld War One was breaking out . They got three of our oldest boys. In W orld W ar umber Two . How many children did you all h ave? Ha d six. Six living and two dead . Got four boys and two girls . You said earlier that you had brown lung . When did you discover that you h ad that? Well, I don't know that was what it was . I knowed it was something bad wrong . Th e last wor k I done in the cotton mills . That would have been in 1939? Yeah . About 1939 . And I got a l lergic to everything . Hay fever • Breathin§ got bad. hen I went out on the farm and stayed six years . old the farm . That was wh en I was talk i ng a b out wanting to work out ::,ocial Security . To have something to depend on when I retired . nd you had to have worked for a company at that time to carry it ..," And I decided to go back • •• instead of g o i ng to the cott m mills. They done everything they could to get me to come back th re . And I went to Drexel Furniture ~ompany . W ent to work out on the yard . Handling lumber . And my emphysema g ot worse, and worse. I got to where I wasn't able to run the job . Somebody said (inaudible) well satisfied with my work . When did you 1 k now you h a d b r own lung ? W ell, it ain t b e en too many years ago that I knowed for sure that's what it was (wife speaks) We l l, the doctor told y ou that was emphysema . He n ever did tell you it was brown lung . (Hicks resumes) No. lhey cal l it brown lung now . And , W3ll I wrote t o a doctor that wrote this in the Asheville ~itizen . l old him h ow I had work ed . And he wrote me back a letter and told me I had emphysema . But the doctors around Mari o n here they ne~er cou ld discov e r. (wife spea ks) They called it athsma . Just athsma? �A. And after I went to wor k up there in the lumber yard, I told my overseer that it was getting too hard for me. I'd have to give it up. He as k ed me what I wanted to do and I told him I thought I wanted to nightwatch. I'd worked with him a year and a half. So they had no trouble getting a nightwatchman job. They was having trouble keeping nightwatchmen. I t was an awful big old p lant and it was awful spooky . And ther e wa s a lot of people ( inaudible). So they put me right on. I nightwatched for two years there. .rind in the time I was there, we built this lit t le old house h ere. Our oldest son's wife while he wa s i n the Army, bought two a c res a nd a half of land here. nd he said he'd give •.• both of them said they'd g ive e n ough l a nd to build us a house on. W ell, I didn't much like the idea of that, but I went ahead and built this little old house. Cheap lit t le old house. nd we been here about 30 years. nd I nightwatched two years and a half and our children all go t away from home. There was nobody to stay with my wife. She was afraid to stay by herself at night. I went and told my bossman that I want ed on the days hift, something. I didn't k now nothing ab out the furniture factory, that is the inside of it. Well, he went and got me a job in the machin e room. Rough (inaudible) where all the lumber all started. But it was worse than the cot t on mill. F or dust. There wa s dust ev e rywhere. The ve ry worst thing that I cou ld have done. But I stuck it out there until I was , got old enoug h to retire. They cut the a ge down fro m 65 to 62. And on the l''ourth of July, I was 62 in April. Been 63 the next year. W ell, I went to the Social Security man here i n a rion and signed up to retire. He fir s t told me, said you can't retire. Yet. Said it;s all right to sign up, but y ou can't retire. I said,~11, didn t you know they'd cut the a g e down to 62? He said no, I didn't know it. W ell, I said, I been watching th a t closer than you h av e. So he signed me up and I went back on M onday morning after the ~ ourt h of J u ly, went right up to my boss and tol d him, I said I'm just work i n g a ten day notice and I'm quitting. He said what's themat t er? I s aid I' m r e tiring. So he come around about an hour or two and he said, P e rry y ou can't draw a thing this year. You've done made o ver $ 1200, and that's all you're a llowed to make. Wi th them. He said you c a n't draw a cent until next year. He said l e t's throw that notice away. I said, well, just throw it a way. He said, well, I never did turn it in nohow. So I worked the rest of that year and retired. I like to never made it. I had, tl!mt dust gi v e me hay fever and agitated this collapsed lung. And so at the end of the year, when they c ome out for Christmas, he come around to me and said now P erry you're just go i ng to make $ 1200 next year, ain't you? I said I ain't going to make nothing next year. W hen I go out of here a t Christmas, I 'm not comi ng back. Oh, he said, co me back and work out $ 1200. I said no, I'm done. He s a id,~11, come back and wor k unt i l yo ur birthday . I said no, I 'm done. 'o I ~ome out the Christmas vacation and although I was supposed to go back and work a few days between vacatio n and the first of the year. But I took pneumonia fe v er. I saw a doctor and wasn't able to go back. But quick as I was able to go, I went and signed out for release and got what was coming to me. nd they beg ed me there yet to come back and visit, but I ain't n e ver g oing back. End of Tape #2, sid e 2 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Howie, Sam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hicks, Perry Interview Date 12/31/1975 Location The location of the interview. Marion, NC Number of pages 25 pages Date digitized 9/19/2014 File size 24.4MB Checksum alphanumeric code b6affd7cf20c7fcf3df5c2f7a0b30fa4 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape338_PerryHicks_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Perry Hicks [Feburary 9, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howie, Sam Hicks, Perry Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--20th century Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--19th century Hicks, Perry Description An account of the resource Perry Hicks talks about working in a cotton mill in western North Carolina in the early twentieth century. He was born in 1899 and began working at a young age because he dropped out of the six-month school he was attending. He explains the influence the unions had: "naturally, I have, all my life, been opposed to the unions." He says that the unions caused inflation, so the poor people didn't come out ahead anyway. He eventually left the cotton mill because he couldn't support his family. Boise Hardwood Lumber Company Burke County N.C. Clinchfield Clinchfield company cotton mill Drexel Furniture Company Duke Power Company Dyartsville East Marion Mill farming flu epidemic Great Depression Haywood County N.C. Madison County N.C. Marion mill house mill work Perry Hicks Pigeon River protests railroad Rutherfod County sawmill segregation voting World War I https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2ecee374740f1c5b14cbd6c822f5d9f4.pdf 95873778cc95a03390e4552e34503883 PDF Text Text ALBERT HASH OUTLINE SIDE A & B I. How he got started in fiddle making business. Grev from need for a fiddle 1. Dreamed how to make the fiddle. 2. Got horse hair for bow. (story) B. Man tuned fiddle for him 1. Stayed with it until he could play c. Dad bought fiddle if he vent to school (in the '20 1 s) D. Played "graphaphone." E. Two brothers played guitars and one brotl"ler was dancer for Ringling Brothers Circus. F. Could play guitar a 1 it tle bit, but decided to master the fiddle. A. U. Other crafts A. Kept on with fiddle while working on others. 1. Made guitar that he could work with left foot to accompany him. (sixteen years old) 2. Liked to carve animals or anything. a. Made skull with workable jaws. 3. Farmed at same time. a. Wun 1 t too strong, so stayed home a lot. ALL THROUGH0t7r TH INTERV!nl 1 WE WERE SOOWN VARIOIB PIECES OF MR. HASH'S WORK. E 4. Desaiption of Mr. Hash's daughter's work. III • Making music A. Recording for radio station in Maryland. IV. Back to instruments Description 1. Leaves guitar making to David Sturgill and Wayne Henderson. 2. Talks of German town of violin makers. A. V. History Borns fifty-eight years ago, 1918. B. Lived around White Top, VA, most of the time. c. Married. D. Tried to farm a while. 1. Made instruments and repairs for neighbors duripg winters E. Various machine shops 1. Could sometimes use machines to make things for hi:mself. F. Took correspondence course in Mechanical Engineering and decided to build clocks. 1. Built works for clocks. 2. Built machinery to take place of five or six people. G. Experience in machine shops. 1. Learn basic steps and then you can make clocks. 2. Was model maker at Brunswick. A. �J. Lots of interesti~g things. Blessed. B. Advice for 'l.D'lhappy people. 1. Look on other side of hill and find out what one can do. 2. Money is beside the point. c. Some people cut out for certain things. 1. Life will be short if you work your life doing wta t you don't want. 4. X. Outstanding things in life. More in line of machinist work. 1. Story of tube making machine. (Long) a. All engineers paid thou8ands and machine wouldn't wcrk. b. Machine wouldn{. work after.putting more money out for. t c. Mr. Hash dtsigns machine and even got a patent on it. (made it in one afternoon) 2. Sometimes one head better than many, because too many people look from too many angles. J. Some people study too much and don't see the simple things. A. XI. Ribbons and Prizes Descriptions of festivals and conventions 1. Went through a flood once. 2. Once played against one hundred and si.xty-f our fiddlers, won second place. J. Judged some Fiddlers Conventions A. XII. Life Nov Stay around home 1. Give people advice. 2. Help students with making instrtlllents. 3. Names instruments. 4. Give people wood. 5. Make tapes for people to learn to play fiddle. B. Only play old time mountain music. c. Recorded for the Library of Congress. D. Recording A. SIDE E Live Performance (JO minutes) �3. Description of gun. H. 4. "Scotch" tricks. Family craftsmen 1. Grandfather could carve but wouldn't. I. Why did you learn to do all you do? 1. Necessity, isolation. 2. Didn't want to hunt or fish, so did more creative things. VI. Craftsman A. How do you make things? 1. See it in my mind. No drawings. 2. Everything I make works. B: Favorites 1. Clock (description) 2. Describes other clocks (famous ones). 3. Takes maybe three weeks work. c. Book on American clocks. D. First clock made in old bus. E. How do you build a clock? 1. Can make case or works either one first. 2. !_ Lo~g description. F. Materials. G. How did you becane famous? 1. Not famous, he says. a.Fiddlers Conventions. b. Smithsonian Institution. c. Fairs (last five or six years) 2. People learn you through fairs and festivals. 3. Made fiddle for back-up van in movies Harold Hensley. White Top) (boy from SIDE C & D VII. VIII. Cornshucks and aances and beanstringings A. Descriptions 1. Played tor thousands of dances 2. Wife danced. 3. Molasses boilings. B. Good social gatherings. No trouble. c. Dancing. Mrs. Hash's grandfather. D. People left for workj changes so these kinds of things stopped. Keeping talent in fmi.ily. A. Daughter Audrey makes instr1.1nents 1. Twenty six years old. B. Other daughter works in church and with scouts, etc. PICTURES OF CHILDREN tx. Craftsman, machinist, artist. A. Jack-of-all-trades. 1. Love of work. 2. Chance to do type of work suited for. �----·- - ' I ALBE ~'T' r!AS H TAPE //1 SIDE A A: Did you read the book, l et's see , it was from Ashe Central, the one with the little magazine that the students fixed up over t here? Qi What's t t e name of it? Ai Timberline. Qt I've some, but I don't, you know, I haven't read it. At I told one of them the story of how I got started in the fiddle ma.king. It was upon the need of a fiddle which I couldn't afford and my folks couldn't afford, so I decided that I, studied on that and studied and studied how in the world I could ever get me a fiddle, you know, and I studied so hard on that, that I began to dream about it, you know. that fiddle. And I dreamed how to make I just took a t hick piece of plank and cut away the inside of it as near as I could figure in t h e shape of the fiddle and then cut t he outside down to look like t he inside,making a little t hin rim all the way around. Then I got some little thin boards and tacked t hem onto it to make the top and the back. There was a fellar plow i ng for m dad over in the fields and y he got out of tobacco and he'd give me a quarter if I'd go to White Top Gap out there. It would have been about t hree miles. Well, I walked out and got his tobacco and brought it back and I bought me a set of fiddle strings. I put them on my home-made fiddle and the bow, I didn't know how to make a bow much, so I got me a hollow stick and made me two ends for it and I �- - -- - - - - -- - ------ - - - / , 2 thought that the hair must be white hair, all the fiddles, I'd never seen, but two fiddles before that you lalow, and I was about ten years old. So,I thought that hair had to be white hair or it wouldn 1 t play and the mail carrier had an old horse over in the field close to where we lived and I got, I talked my brother into helping me hem him up in a corner of the fence. He got him a couple of big corn stalks and drove that old horse into the corner to the fence and I sndaked around through I got in behind him and ~ached the weeds and crawled 'til through the fen ce and got ahold of his tail and I yelled at him and tha horse took off dawn thehill arrl liked to pull me through the crack in the fence. But I had that horse tail wound araund my fingers enough 'til I could pull me out a fiddle bow out of there. So, I brought it back and I put it in the two ends of my fiddle bow you know. It was".a crude looking thing and I pulled it acorss that fiddle and it wouldn't play a lick and I figured, "My goodness, there is someting wrong somewhere or another." Then I looked the whole thing over fau top to bottom, I couldn't figure out what was the matter an:l one of the neighbors passed by and said, "Well, I know wha.t is the matter with it, 11 he said, 11 you need some resin on that bow." I said, "Resin?" we've got sa11e r-esin at home • 11 He said,"Yeah, I'll bring a piece from home, And people used it, you know, back then when they grafted apple trees to make up their grafting wax. So, he brought me a chunk of resin down there and he could play a little bit on a fiddle and he was lazy as he c aild be, just a big old boy you lalow. And he lay down in the chip: yard, where we chopped the wood, and put his head on the chop block and tuned that fiddle and began to play on it there and that liked to nm me crazy that it would play, you lalow. Q: With your horsehair? At Uh, huh, with And he could play tunes on it. my homemade bow and all. It would squeal out about:·like �3 the average J/4 size fiddle will do, you know, and I don't guess anybody was ever so tickled with anything as I was that. As soon as he'd turn it loose and give it to me I headed for the house with it as hard as I coUld go and we had a little stove about like tip.a one here and over in the corner and I got in behind that stove with that fiddle scratching and squeaking on it. (Laughter) I about run all the cats out. I could play one of the tunes t~at But I .stayed with that thing until he 1 d played trere, you know, and that got me started fnom, in the build, making of fiddles and in the playing too and then my dad, he found out. He worked away, you know, all the time. I stayed with my granddad lived on his place and that little fiddle hanging right there next to the mandolin, he bought that for me if I'd go to school 1 t11 Christmas, so I had to leave haue to go to school, you know, I was ten years old and had never gone to shoool, only just a few days because it was, I couldn't walk the distance to the school house, you know. Qa What year As Ah, that was back in the '20 1 s and so ••• Qt You said your daddy :worked away? A1 Uh, huh. Qt Where did he work? A1 He worked for the Virginia Supply Company on, he worked, it was kind of w~ that? Do you remember? a railroad thing, he stayed in a railroad car, you know, and theymoved him from place to place. He was a kind of bookkeeper or sanething of that kind, He'd been there, he'd been a teacher, you now, taught school and so he bought me that fiddle there and I went to school, I went to my mother and went to school from there, you know, and at C hristmas time they brought me that fiddle and I thought that that was the most wonderful thing in the world, you know, and I've kept it all these years cause it wasn't a good one to play �4 on and I pla.fed it for a long ti.me and th en I began t o make good ones, you know. And I made them that was so much batter than it that I just kept on making them over the years. Q: What ever happened to the first one, the one you made to begin with? As I don't know, I wish I could ~ind out or had kept, but it was so c rud~, I guess that when I got to making others that I just, I don't remember what went with it. It has been so long ago. It was, you see, I didn't have glue, I took the, what pins I could steal out of the pin cushion and what tacks I could find around about and tacked my top and back place on. You can, you can begin to get a picture of what it looked like, yet it would play••• Qa And all this came to you in a dream, I mean you dreamed it? At Yeah, I studied so hard that I began to dream about it. Qs H old wer e you? ow At About ten years old, but ••• Qa But you had been thinking ••• • A! Yeah, it had worked on for a year or two, the first time I ever heard a fiddle played, I could remember of, I was scared to death of it, I was just a little kid, you know. And the next time we was, had a corn field on the fellar 1s place and it come up a terrible thunder storm and we run into his house and stayed on the porch and he went in the house and brought out a fiddle and played for us while we waited, you know. And then I had begun . to understand what a tune was and what it sounded like and so on and I thought that was music, I don't know what it, how to explain what it did for me, you know, to hear that. To hear the tunes played on that that I'd heard my brothers sing, you know, and so on. And of course, they wasn't any radios back then and we finally got a hold of an old phonograph. They �5 called it a graphophone then, you know. It played little round records, cylindrical reocrds about so long, jsut a wee tiny thing, you know, and it had some fiddle tunes on it and so on. So that got me started into muaic business and then my brothers, two of them played guitars and one was a dancer. One used to dance with ~ingling Brothers Circus, you know ••• Qt Wowl Aa ••• he was a real dancer, he, ah, tap dancer and so on and he's dead now. He, ah ••• Qt What was hie name? A: Dennis and I had one named Rudy. Qa He played the guitar? Aa Uh, huh. Qa Why did you not take up guitar, I mean you just didn't want to do the And one, Ernest that played the guitar. same thingl. As I did at ~ne time, played, played several years on the guitar, you know, but the fiddle, I liked ao much better that I decided, "Well, you can't master one in a lifetime." So, I gave up the guitar altogether. And tren I tried to learn some on a five string bango and that thing, I could have learned electricity easier than I could have learned that. Qa (Laughter) Aa And I never could learn anything about electricity. I have to see some- thing.moving before I can work on it, like the clock wheels up there. Q.a Well, you can go on-.and tell us how you started making other stuff, too. Aa Well, this I kept up working on the instruments and tren as long as I had time 1 I wruld carve wood, you know, and make all kinds of things and all kinda of little mechanical things. And I decided one time tha,t my bro- thers went off to work that I needed a guitar player to play with me and I �6 took a guitar and got to looking at that thing, knowing the chords and how it should be played and so on, I built me up a device, a rack to put that guitar in and I had some levers that would go over and pegs sticking out of them that would touch the strings at the right place and I had a pick that I worked with my left foot, here on a shaft that run up and down and I could play a guitar am a fiddle at the same time, you know. After I learned and I'd either play the guitar and forget the fiddle or play the fiddle and couldn't play the guitar, after I got them both to going at once, I could keep time with myself there you know, and I could play that thing right along. It'd play good, you know. Q1 How old were you then, ten or eleven? As I was still, I was around sixteen or seventeen, I guess, s<11lewhere around there. (laughter). And I kept carving this, that and the other. I like to carve lit- tle animals and so on and I'd carve frogs and mice and birds and just anything that come along, skulls, time, of white wood. I carved out a skull out of buckeye one It was a pretty weird looking thing and I decided, it looked so good and all that, I'd, ah, it's jaws needed to .work all the time and I fixed that thing up with a set of old clock works. A little wire running out of them so that it would keep that thing's jaws a biting all the time. (laughter) Just anything to be a doing something, you know. Qt Well, were you farming at the same time, I mean ••• Aa Yes, uh, huh. Qi ••• were Aa We farmed all the time, but I was, I wasn't too strong so they'd leave you farming and just doing it as a hobby? me at the house lots of times, my mother was sick alot, too. They'd leav.e me at the house to do the house work arrl after I'd get my house work done, I'd hit out under an apple tree or something, you kn01-1, some wood carving of �7 some kind. I carved everything. Everything you could think of. Qs Did yau give those things away or just ••• As Yeah, uh, huh. of things. I liked to carve things like that, I carved all kinds Everything I could think of. Q: Do you still carve alot? Ai Uh, huh, along. I don't do alot of it anymore, only jut when I have to, like the horse head up there on the dulcimer neck and stuff like that. I'll pull it down here where you can see it. Q1 Oh, wow, that is beautiful! AJ I carved one aide of it, and Audrey carved the other side, I wanted her to learn to carve ••• Qs At Why don't we get a picture of that? ••• and she's, I wanted her to learn to build her instrmnents ela- borate and she is doing a mighty fine job on all of them, I think. Q: What is that right in there? As That's a pearl. shell. So, here's the horse head that'll go on one end of her dulcimer. Qs Now, did she do this or did you this? At She did one side of it and me, the other so that she'd have something as a pattern, you know. But t~ is is entirely her carving there, the dragon which will hold the strings and the, fran the back end of the dulcimer and this should be a very elaborate instrument that she is building up. ~e is building this for a gentleman that's a collector and also ah, does alot of playing the music away from two radio stations that he owns, ah ••• Qs Where are they from? As Up in Havre-De-Grace, Maryland. we record for him ••• Qz Your band recorded? Ee has an FM and AM station there and �A: Well, part of my bmd has been in it. Audrey helps me with her guitar playing and he brings down a young lady with him when he comes down and we'll make our programs for him to take back and play on his staitons there. He says the people like them, Idon't know what they sound like too, never heard too much of them, you know, after we have put them on the tapes. He'll play them back a little, once in a while, but I'm sure that I can't contribute a whole lot ot them (laughter) I put out a whole lot of loud noise. As big, She is getting started in the instrument building now, I won't have leave it all undone will Mrs. Hash: good~ !1 Huh, huh. So, I've made alot of different kinds. I've made some dulcimers and I only made one guitar and it was a good guitar and a pretty thing. I made it out of curly map:te and it was pretty elaborate, but that was the meanest thing I ever worked on. I didn't have the prope~ jigs for holding and so on and I'd get it in my lap and start working on it and it would begin to start turning around with me, (laughter) you know. So, I decided that I'd leave the guitar making to our friend David Sturgill down here and Wayne Henderson. They're good guitar makers, both of them are and this part of the world up in here, we're getting several instrument builders around about. I call it "Little M ittenwall'' now. Q: Oh, yes. At That is a place in Germany, I understand this violin school ah • • • Qs It is very famous for its violins. At Uh, huh. Q: Yes. At ••• kindly started that out over there and from that day on What is that? made some fine violins in a place they call Mittenwall (?) they have I reckon it's �- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - --" 9 just a little community like place w.l th ••• Qi Yes, a very small canmunity. At Uh, huh. Qt ~t A1 Right, uh, huh. Qt Why don't you tell us a little bit a.bout your history before we go on. everybody in that canrnunity makes violins. I'd like to visit them sometime. Like where your family is f ran real brief. As Well, that won't be hard, that wouldn't take me long to get down to where that I was born, right down at the foot of this hill, here. A good many years ago, about fifty-eight of them and I've lived right around this White Top Mcnmtain vicinity here. Most of the time. I lived up, that's where I began to learn the machinist trade, when !roved up toAlexandria, Virginia, there after I found that little girl over there and :married her along, so maJl1 years ago. And we lived up there for, well, I was up there alto- gether around four o r fiv e years, around Washington and Alexandria and I worked, learned the machinist trade over in the naval torpedo station there. It was war time and they took me in there as a helper trainee and this torpedo station and I worked there till the war was over and then !cane back here and decided I was a fa.mer and I bought me a · rhoe .. and a bag of fertilizer, had a little place back up on the head of this creek that rtms over here and I went up there and pretentied to raise a crop of corn (laughter) more blackberries than anything. t~ese I picked But I decided then I moved over across hills over here a little ways and tired farming there for a, I don't know, I must, how long do you reckon, I farmed Ethel? Too long however long it was, for I never did like farming. Qa Did you make instruments and things all the time you were doing that? A1 Of the winter time I would and I'd make gun stocks for people and what- �---- - - - - - - - - - - --- - - -- -- - - - -· 10 ever else they needed repaired and so on, you know. I would do it for thEl!l 1 anything they needed, a piece to a, go to a piece of antique furniture or anything they needed that way, I would try and come up with it and then I •, j I •. went to work for Spraig Electric C ompany and I worked with them for fifteen years and I worked ••• Q1 When was that? As ••• that was, let's see I've been out of there five years. It's been fifteen, it's been twenty years ago, I began to work for them, I'd say, yeah. Q1 Where is the electric company located? A1 That's located over here at Lansing, just over the line, over inAshe County and they was a good canpany to work for and treated me good and I had a big machine shop and it was well equipped to, and alot of ambition and I was alot younger than I am now, so I didn't take any breaks. I'd get there early of the morning and leave late sanetimes and sanetimes·, I'd go in on a Saturday and they'd allow me to make sanething for myself, you lmow. And they was awf'U.l good that way and I began to make alot of guns, made all kinds of hand guns, you know. won the West, you know. And I copied one Frontier Colt, the one that Look, made it, copied one and made the parts in- terchangeable into the one that I made and mine would go into the other e11e and they'd .function, you know, and just for the sake of being,. a building, making sanething, you know. ~ And then I decided that I had, I'd take me course in mechancial engineering and I got up the books and began to study that and I was having to read half the night or more you know and then work nine hours a day and ••• Q1 Thia was a course through the mail? Al Yeah, 1.c.s., good thing and I got along way over in it and I come across �11 this gear. cutting and so on , that is ratio of one gear to another and all that stuff and I mastered all that and I decided, " Now, I ' ve got enough of them books , I'm going to build me a clock ." Arid I pitched my books aside and I started making clocks (laughter) . I built several clocks and I never did try to study anything else , I just built machinery for them , you know, and I've built some very complex machinery , I ' ve built machinery that would take the place of five or six people, you know . Q: Gosh! A: And get it out on the lines to working and go on and build some- thing else . There ' s a machine I built to cut the gears in these pretty clocks now, you know , and that ban saw I built there and the sanders back there and I can look around out here and find alot 01' things . Q: it? A: This kind of stuff that you made . ·How did you learn how to do 1 mean you just .. . tinker around ... Well, actually the experience you have in a machine shop once you learn the basic machines , you know , and how to go on your own and if ,they give you a blue print of something they want made . You learn to do the steps of turning it out and the milling and the shaping and the grinding and so on . Then this other , say making this block up here , that now is not what I call craft or anything , it just goes along , any good machinist ought a be able to turn out the parts of a block , if he is a macninist , you know . Q: They couldn ' t carve all that stuff on there could they . A: I mean the movement of it . So, all the, really all the skill involved in the clock making is in the case, unlesr you want to de- �- - - - - - - -- -.... : • ..l ~ 12 · sign one and put, say a bunch of dancing figures or a ship in the top like mine upstairs. (Laughter) Make it a little different. Then I worked for . ,. 5~""'"-"\U~ ~F~g Electric for fifteen years and I decided that I wanted to go out somewhere else and work. So, I went to Brunswick and worked for them for, I was there about four years, I believe, you know. And the job was compl eted , finished. Q: What is Brunswick, exactly? A: They, it is a company that is involved in making about every- thing from pool tables up to cabin cruisers, anything you can . think of Brunswick has made it at one time or another, even records. They made records. And they had me as a model. I was salaried, and my job was to make the first of everything that they made. If they wanted a certain kind of a rocket, really a model maker is one who makes out of wood or plastics or something a model of something, but their need ... They had a machine shop, maintenance shop,a big machine shop, but there was no one that did alot of design work on these new things. So, if they wanted to make rockets I designed the hardware and built the first hardware, then it was out of my hands, you see. all that thing, you know. I'd get to go see them fired and I built machine guns for them. design the machine guns and things of that nature. do much in the line of explosives. You'd But they don't Theirs is more sporting goods · and tnings of that nature, motors, they build, well, all kinds of motors and so on. Anything else you can think of they have at some time or another built it. paid me real good. A good company to work for and they I hated for the job to close down in a way. I didn't want to make things to destroy people with and 1'ortunately �13 nothing was ever used ·for that purpose that I made, so I felt alot better about . I just like to work at something like that . I like to make it and see it work and then maybe tear it up if it works to ·good . I Q: Where is this factory located? A: lt was over here at Sugar Grove , Virginia, about twenty-nine miles from here , I guess . Q: Did it just totally close up? A: Philco Ford, a company out in California was building the gun for this caseless ammunition which was supposed to have been used on one of those supersonic jets . And this Gatling gun had five barrels and fired, seems to me like it fired a thousand rounds a minute, wasn .' t it , Ethel? Ethel : A: Did I ever tell you or not? I don't know. I can ' t remember now . Anyhow, when I , they'd show us movies on how it was working and so on . I said to myself it will never go . The first movie I ever watched, There ' s no way that it can . They was pouring this ammuntion into these big boxes, just pour it out and then the stoker fed it into these barrels to that gun and a blaze of fire looked like it would go about fifteen feet out and just hold out there in that continous firing you thousand rounds a minute it fired, Ithink it was . kno~. It was a I know the bar- rel s was set spiral and when it would start firing it would straighten themselves, you know. They'd fire away there ' til the heat would get so intense and the breach of these guns that it would begin to burn these cases that was made out of nitre- cellulose and burn them up right there, you see . There was no explosion, just a big roaring fire out of it, you know . �14 Q: I wanted to go back and ask you something about when you took that course in the mail. Did you take that with the inten- tion of making clocks when you finished? A:' 'l'hat was mainly my interest in it and I wanted to see if there was anything in there that would help me in my work. I didn't want to become a mechanical engineer ana have to leave the shop or a.nything, I wanted to always work the machines myself, you know. I found in taking this course that the re was so much of it that I'd already covered that it was simply, wasn't worth my while to bother with it and work out all of the math that had to be worked and all that junk that went along with it, which nine times out of ten, I had a little Scotch trick or a nearer way or a different way of doing it that worked much faster and better. So, you see, we have what is called a machinist's "bible" that always is in the shop and I.have one over here now, because you'd never, no one would ever turn out to be a first class machinist there's just too much to it. Look at the difrerent metals that comes up every day different materials to work with in different types of machines from computerized on down to the most rugged old equipment, some of it antique like my lathe here, . and so on. I had learned all the Scotch tricks, that I like to call them, a Scotchman was •.• SIDE B Q: Your parents did they do any kind of wood work or anything like your father or A: ~randf ather? No, my grandfather, the only one that I could remember, he could carve if he wanted tc but he, it was of little worth to him to do that, because he was of the older generations that didn't �15 believe in any foolishness of any, he called it foolishness, you know, but he could carve. carving out was a duck. .~ The only thing that I remember him He carved out a duck. out anything that he wanted to, though. And he could carve I was the only one that did any carving, but it is a strange thing, I had these three brothers and each one had worked in machine shops at different places and my three brothers and myself all could build any kind of a house we took a notion or about anything else like that. So, I don't know, I guess, if we needed something we would make, it. I guess, necessity is one of the greatest teachers of anything. We could do hlacksmith work. We could work on anything that we took a notion to, you know, and make it work, do it 'til it would work, you know. Any of us could cut anyone else's hair, you name it we'd try to do it, because it was the way we lived. isolated .and we depended on each and we depended on ourselves Q: Bu~ otgne~ We was for the things that we neede for the things that we needed. it seems like other people that were isolated, you know, they didn't start making all tho s e ....• A: No, they was families that was interested in different things. Some like to go out with their dogs and gun and hunt all day. never wanted anything like that. I never wanted to kill the ani- mals, you know. Never did want to do anything like that. never hunted or fished. I So, I My interest was in more creative work. I'd rather of built the bird house than to kill the bird. bird in my life I killed and I killed it by mistake. One I was trying to kill a hawk that had been catching the chickens. It was in a tree, and I never could see out any distance like any- �16 body else. So, I shot and this dove fell out or that tree, and I could of cried over it. hunted for anything. I didn't want to do that. I never I've tried to kill crows that was eating my I corn up when I farmed, but that was altogether a different. So, I guess that was one reason they had me working on the instruments and so on, I didn't like to hunt and I didn't want to freeze myself to death out in the woods, so why not cut a pile of shavings on the hearth and sweep them into the fire and come up with a fiddle. Something that would be worthwhile. (Laughter) Or a dough roller or anything else I took a notion for, if nothing else an ax handle for the ax. Q: I was forever breaking them out. When you carve anything, an instrument or whatever, do you plan it before you make it, or does it sometimes take shape. A: No, everything I do, I always told the boys in shop said I was training, I .always built it upstairs first. before I even start to work on it. I can see it working. always worked a different method from that I have worked with. I can see that thing mos~ every other machinist They would want to make sketches and drawings and compare this to this and so on. them like that. I have I never would make wnen plant manager would come and ask me, lots of times, he'd come over the top of my foreman and ask me if I could make a machine to do a certain job. answer ready for him. Yes sir. And I always had the And I would wonder off some- where and sit down maybe drink a cup of coffee in the time of it. I would begin to say, now this will work this way, but why won't it work this way. I would pick out the reasons why it will work and why it won't work. And when I got the reasons why it will �17 work all in one-and I would start ~ had no reasons why it won't work, then machine1~g out pieces and piling them up in a pile and it would run my boss crazy. He'd try to figure out, "Wnat is he a doing now," and I've caught him several timec trying to assemble parts to get- to see what it was a going to do you know. I didn't want his ten cents worth in with it , you know because everyone has a different idea about things you know. He might have had lots better ones at times than I did but I would get around to the ah making it work after all you know and when I would get it all machined out, I would assemble the machine and put it , on the truck and take it out into the line and put it to work right there. Q: Did you ever made anything that didn't work right? A: Ah very few times that I've ever made any-no pieces of big machinery of any kind have I ever made that was what you'd call a flop you .know. Ah it all worked out because I wouldn't start it till I had figured it out that it would work. I had weighed my- why it will against why it won't, all the questions and come up with the conclusion tnat it will work before I even made any of it you know. Q: What about instruments? A: I have before now changed my mind in the middle of making one that I had decided I would make ah ah design it one way or leave it a certain tnickness and then I would change my mind due to the density of the wood or change design on it maybe somewhere or another, I·d -c.hink maybe, "Well I'll do this to it and then that- no I don 't believe I·l~ do that, I'll go this way and carve it some other way you know but not-I wouldn~'t �·~ I get it far enough along but what 1 cou~d change it without ah it ever being noticed in any way after it was made you know. It was made to look exactly like ah that I had planned it that w~y. Q: Do you have a favorite piece of anything you've ever made, like a A: c~ock, c~ock is that your favorite Ah it is. over there? That clock, I'd rather see the stove and the refrig- erator and everytning go out of here than that. I take it out once in a while to arts ana crafts ah festivals and so on and I•ll leave it in the car, maybe going back the next day and that corner, it worries me to death nearly till that clock is not there you knew. Q: And now long ago did you make A: This ah I··ve had that made about fifteeen years I'd say now and that~ it's ticked away-it ' s run ah I very seldom fcrget to wind it. Now I could have made it an eight day clock by adding two more wheels but I wanted to wind that clock . I wanted tnat to be one of my chores, daily cnores, as I started to go to bed to wind that clock and it's just as natural for me now when I start to go to bed, that's the last thing I do, I'll wind that clock up. Q: Is tnat one of your first efforts at clock making? A: That's one of my first metal movements . I·d made them from wood oerore that, but that ' s one 01· my first brass c~ocks to make and ah the brass in that clocK is an e1gnth of an incn thick, the whee~s ana tne main whee~s are over four and a half inches in diameter and the leaves in the pinions are ah around eighty thousanths thick. clock with clocks th~t So comparing the thickness of that was made beck pre-Civil War out of one �·19 thirty second of an inch brice and have run for a hundred years and that should tell you a story of approximately how long my clocks would run , for they ' re made along the line of what was known as the . '" O. G: clocks made by Terry and Waterbury, and all of Conneticut clocks . t~e old makers After, you see the Grandfather clock the tall clock like that, they used little clocks, Connecticutt clocks they come out and it is no longer practical to make Grandfather clocks . And wouldn ' t be to this day without you got an enormous price for one of them, unless you just, you know , like I am, work if you want to and don ' t if you don ' t . Not but what I can use all the money I can get out of anything, that ' s easy to do . But the thing of it is how long it would take to make one cf them . You couldn ' t, I wouldn ' t want to take it up as something to make a living with making these clocks like that . For two ~easons, one is it would take a long to make them . There ' s every piece of that, you ' d be surprised how many pieces goes into that ~here you make all of it. You see I even made the hinges for th8 case and the knobs for the door and everything but the nails that went into that clock case I made . The little ship up there is rigged up out of tin sails and screen wire ropes and painted the scene back of it of the sea and so on, and the dials and the hands , carved the spiral rungs that comes down the side here and up there . And you ' d be surprised at how long it would take to do that , it'll take ~ou , I'd say that it ' d take approximately three weeks to built one of them , wouldn't it? About like that . So , you ' d get maybe five hundred dollars out of it, for your three weeks work , which wouldn't be too bad nor too good . �20 Q: Could you give us a general idea of the process or kind of the evolution of one of these clocks? A: a Where do you start? Oh , I would say I have a book on American r~al rascinating book, you know . alities of people that made clocks . clocks here . It ' s We had all kinds , all nationAnd we had one woman that I remember reading about in this book that was a clock maker , but most of them were German or Dutch . they ca~led And they called them , alot of times them the Pennsylvania clocks, you know, the tall clock . This pendulum, as I understand, was adapted to the clock in about 1630 , before that they had what was known a.s the balance bar , this piece swung around ana back and around and back, just a balanced up there held by a piece of string . And that was one of the early clocks , that was thirteenth century clocks beginning in the thirteenth century in China, 1 believe it was the origin 01 that clock . Well , before that was the water clock, which was a container filled with water with a tiny hole c.t the bottom and another container which caught the water as it leaked out of that and raise this float which read the hour of the day as it raised up , you know, as this container filled up and then somebody had to be there to watch that clock and pour it back in the other one again . Of course,that I guess they had the sun dial and the hour glass and what have you , or a mark on the porch to see when the sun got down to· a certain time and it ' s time to E .tart doing the work up . some fantastic clocks . appreciated . 'l'hese people made Their ingenuity was something to really be Now there was this one fellow who fastened himself up and stayed for I forgot how many years and he come up with this clock that has the Christ ana the disciple s and they march around , .. �at the time tnis clock is to strike, you know , and then he has Satan and all kinds of figures of that kind that will come out at difrerent times and so on . T~ings like that people have really gone· into the clock making in a big way . One fella made clocks that I have a picture of one of his clocks which is I think the most beautiful clock that I have ever seen any picture of or anything . His clock back in the time that he maae it sold ror about nine hundred dollars which then ir you could buy one now like that it would probably be worth ninety or a hundred thousand dollars , you see . Q: How many clocks have you made? A: I ' ve kind of lost count of them like I have my fiddles . try to keep up with anything like that . I never But I hold some around here and I took some way down into North a couple to one man down there, aidn't 1? C~rolina dovm to Clairmont , Then I would a furnish a set of works if somebody would make me a case for , give them a set of works ana they would make two cases and put their works in , and give me a case to put another set of work s in. deal for a while , you know , not having room . I workea that For I built my first clock in the body of a school bus that I used as a shop . I aian't have room to turn tnat lULmber around and c.round in there when I went to work . bus . Made a good shop, you know, but it wasn ' t big enougn for anything . Q: So, my first clock building happened in that school Plenty or light. How ao you go about builaing one or the clocks? Start with the worksor do you . ... A: You could go either way . I built the case fil·st ana one of my �--- -- I .22 ' neighbors come in and talking over the clocK he said, "What are you building?" I said , "J 'm building me a Grandfather clock." And he looked at the work , I had. it laying dovm , you know , in the floor. 11 ' It looks like it's going to be alright . get your works? " better ~ uild Where are you going to I said, "I'm going to buil cl them. " the works first, then build the case .'' He said , "You (Laughter) I told him, I said , "If I can build the case, I know I can build the works." What really, the way you get started out you know a- bout how many gears you want in ycur chain of gears up each side , providing this clock is going to be a one day movement, a eight day movement, or a thirty day mo ve ment. You'll have to work out your ratio of gears then, but somewhere along the line you've got to reach out into thin &ir and say I want a gear that 'll be, wel l my main gears are, I use eighty and seventy eight teeth on them. 1 use the eighty teeth next to the in that line. firs~ gear up. 1 think of it The one when the pa ir, you see , these are weight- driven clocks, and the one that has the drum on it that the cable winds onto has eighty teeth to begin with and it runs again one which I believe has twenty teeth on the center shalt ana on towards the escapement it runs again one with with seventy eight teeth , which runs against one with six teeth and always tha piniort gear the lit~le up there. gear has six teeth in all the way around in all my clocks So, when you've worked. out the ratio then the size of the movement depends on how you want to blow this up. Say, well , I know that I need eighty teeth so you take , you say , I want to make a clock, a big clock. ment. I want to make say a tower clock move- You would say OK, it has to have eighty teeth on that first �----- --~- · 23 wheel, and I will make this, how big ~ou do l want this fir s t whee.L . can say , Ok, I'l.L make it twelve inches . figure,you know. teeth. Just picking a OK, you have twelve inch diameter with eighty Now how big do I want the tone that it's going to run a- gainst, because if it only has six teeth, then, if I get the diameter too big the gear whell not mesh with the pinion . ~i.Ll That's where your ratio and proportion comes in on that, you work that out. So, it i-:orks out perrect.Ly that way . ure your clock out as you go tether the length ~hat And. you just go right on, fig- way . And. when you get it all to- your penau.Lum tnen, that pendulum rod. that 01 swings back and forth determines the speed that that clock will gu at, the length of that. If you get it t.oo long the clock will run too slow, if you get it too short it will go too fast, so you have to have, keep slipping up on it. Make it plenty long to start with and then keep moving it up and cut t ing it - off, until you get it established to what you need . Then you can make right by tha~ on and on and on and they 'll work out right. Q: What metals did you use? A: .L use steel , coal roll steel and brass in the clocks that I make. I make th~ always have brass. plate, the housing that holas the wheels they And l make the verge out of steel and the es- cape wheel, the one that travels the fastest and does the most work, it's made out of brass and there ' s one for you to figure out I 've never been able to figure . rou take all of your go through your brass ~ hrough wneel ~ and ~hat ~pinales thav tne1r steel and they go through the brass fr a mes on the side of it and they will wear tne ora s s frame, but the escape wheel at the top , the teeth come to a �- - -- - -- - - - -- - ·- - - - - - - - - - - 24 razor snarp edge anu tna-c runs agairn:.t a p1 ece of steel tna.t I wou1d say RocK\v·elJ_ haraened. to 6:> 0 ancl it v.:ill actually wear holec. in that hardened piece of tool steel whi~h ~ith razor sharp edges .of brass don ' t wear out and I can ' t figure that out . (Laughter) That ' s one tnat I don't figure out . Q: Maybe you can work on that . A: I believe I ' ll leave that for somebody else . Q: How , do you have trouble getting the materials you want or ao you just take what you can get? , A: The biggest thing is the expense of it . Brass is high to buy anymore , you know . Q: What about the wood? A: The walnut wcod that I make the cases out of , that ' s just about out of the question anymore . I happened. to ho.ve quite a bit of it on hand., if that was gone I have no idea . where I'd get anymore cf it . Q: Well, do you make you instruments from the same kind of wood . A: No , ..L make tnem , m2ke the instruments mcst of the time from curly maple, a.nd spruce . And it's native wood of th-'-s area . My fidale tops come from the highest mountain that I can get them off of , White Top up here . And that according to the old makers , I have alot of books on violin ma.king , I have one the Vio..t.in En~­ p1opedia and 1 have one on the German and Austrian violin maKers , the work of Antonia Str~divariu s and otners . And they all se- lected their wood from th e higl: mountF..ins, du.e to the slow growth of the tree and that produced close sap rings around the spruce that grew up on the high mountains and the wind would rock it �; 25 year after year and it wpuld be more 1lex1b1e and you woulu get Detter tonal quality and bet~er the maple ' s the same way . wood from around here . a cou s tics that way . And I ' m sure But this is a good area to get fiddle Some of the be s t I ' ve ever had come from the White Top Mountain over here . Q: A: I~ ' s equal or bei::.ter to the Alpine Spruce . iv1artin guitars , Martin is one of the leading gui ta1· makers they make the finest guitars of any , made in this country you knew. If they can on their most expensive guitars , if they can po s sibly get it they use Appalachian Spruce for the tops . they can get They can get Alpine ~pruce ana Spruce and other wooas , they can get any kind of wood that can be had, but tney use Appalachian Spruce on the tops of them . Q: Now , I want to ask you, I wa nt you to tell us how you became famous . I didn ' t knov~ A: WHAT! Q: uh , I re a d about you all the time . A: What . Q: We read about you . A: Oh , I gu e s s I ' m just different fr om oth8r people that ' s all . I ' m not famous . .Q: I was . (.laughter) No . Well , now if they take your music up to Maryland , I mean that ..•. A: Oh, I ' ve liv e d up here a long the best e:: planation I can hc.ve . Q: How did th ey find you? ti n e, young ' uns , that ' s about Mayb e a lot of people know me. �. ' ., .. . ~-­ ~ 26 A: I just happened to be at the wrong place at the right time , or something . Oh , I used to go out and play at the Fiddler ' s Conven- tions that ' s the one good way th?t they learn you . wouldn ' t have any idea hov1 many Fiddler ' c.: I played , I Conventions , you knov1 . Too , I like to go to fairs and festivals and so on , especially I 'v e been to the Richmond Fair dovm here , and stayed there for a week to demonstrate riddle making there , you know . me at the Smithsonian Institutio~ And I , they wanted and I kinda promised them that I would go this sumr:ier , but I don ' t kno1 . ·.- Q: Well , now , how did tney know about you? A: Through some college down in North Carolina somewher e here . A young fellow come up here and talked to me a whil e over there . They wanted the fiadles and the clocks both there , but they wanted to take enough machinery, you know, 'til I could be a show them how both went . I told him that I would go and that if t hey wanted to haul my junky machinery up there why it would be alright with me . Q: If they could find you. A: Yeah . ( laughter) They kinda have to start a day ahead of time to find me in here . Q: It ' s true . Q: Well , what will they do , set up a booth or something that .... A: Uh , huh . That ' s what they had in mind . mend Fair down there . I went Henderson the guitar maker . a~ong with thi s 1 enjoyed that Rich~ood Ana we had alot of fun . right together , had us some tables right close by . of fun . The wood carver , tie· carver and Wayne s quitE' a character . We worked We · had a world �. ..... . 27 Q: When did you start going to all this stu f1? A: Rigt1t within the laf'.t five or six years, I ' d say the arts and crafts thing s I ' ve gotten interested in that . And to the one at always over to the one at Marion there I ' d take things over there . People learn you through that and it ' s a good place . I never can keep any instruments to be ll , because my instrument s leave here, I just turn loose of them when I get them done , that ' s about it . Hensley . Now the last fiddle I made went to California to Harold He ' s if'_ movie work out there. for movies and all that stuff . maae . He plays back up music. And I made him the last one I It , out on , ordinarily where you see the scroll the curled up thing out thert . I had the Indian head carved on there that I put on there on account of a very fine tune that he played called the "Wild Indian , " you kne w. One of his compositions no doubt . the back I had in mother of pea rl and abalone shell ~orked On out a I hummingbird flying tov;ard a white flov.·er and it was a beautiful thing . the Then I had a row of pearl around the top and it was one of fini s hes like I like to put on rny in st rument s . And he was really thrilled with it . When he got it , he T.ook it ana. haa it, compared to one that cost UOO , 1 believe it was . $2L1 ., him it ought to be a shame to compare my of junk like that . he sees me again . ( LEtu g,f1.l, e1 ·) in ~t ruments I told to a piece Sc, I 6ues[; he' 11 Ehoot me when �· --- - - - - - - - -- - - - - . ~ ... Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side C A. Q. A. Q. A. We used to have a dance at somebody ' s house nearly every week , did~ ' t we darling (to his wife)? There was not anything much for entertainment other than things [like] dances and the music and we made good use of that . And we ' d go to a house, say like this ' un , with no more room that I have here , maybe 12 by 20 feet and there wouldn ' t be a whole big crowd like there would be at a dance hall . There ' d be alot of people there , but not too many would dance anyhow , just come to hear the music and so on . They ' d just pick up the furniture and move it out of the way and set here over in the corner and there it went . Girls on one side of the house and the boys on the other and get that dance started you know . Would you play for them? Yeah - played for thousands of them . What did you do? (asking Mrs . Hash) She was a dancer . I never did get to dance with her . That ' s why I can ' t dance to this day . But he had more fun trying (his wife) . But I always did manage to take her home. I had to fiddle till I was ready to fall out of the chair while she had a good time adancing . But I enjoyed every minute of it . Sbmetimes they'd have corn shuckings . They would have a great pile of corn pulled off with the husks all on it and they would tear into that and shuck like mad, getting this all worked out so they could have a dance after it was over . And beans, green beans you know , they ' d have to pull the strings off of them and break them up ~nd so on and they would bean s tringings, apple cuttings and molasses boilings . That was the great thing , the molasses party . You'd go out and there were these vat s . Did you ever see molasses being made? There ' s be a vat about as long as that couch or a little longer and it would take a horse and he pulled this mill around and around and around . It had a little pole out there and you tied it to his bridle and he d i dn ' t know but to follow �---------- - ---- --- ------ - -- Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side C A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. that after they started him . It ' d lead that horse around and around , leading himself around and around and around and it ' d push that cane into these rollers and it would mash the juice out of it and then it went into tte boiler and you ' d take skimmers , they look like a shovel or something with holes in the bott om to keep all the green skimmings off of it and after a while it would turn into a nice amber colored molasses . And then when they all got taken up out of the boiler , we ' d get us a cane stal k or a wooden paddle and sop that boiler with it . Get you a bite out of it and it ' s good and sweet and then we ' d have dances , maybe in a little meadow somewhere away from the cane mills . For a couple of hours . Would your parents come? Oh yeah . Yeah , but they usually just sit back or paid no attention to you , you know . They ' d talk among themselves and it would be just a good social gathering , no trouble . No nothing to bother anybody . Everybody behaved and everybody had a good time . What kind of dances did you dance? It was mostly just old square dances , · wasn ' t it (to his wife ) ? They used to have one called Virginia Reel and maybe now and then we ' d have just a regular old flat foot dancer you know . Now my wife ' s grandfather , he was a real good hand to dance the old time flat foot dancing . He won one of the festiva l s up on the white top here with his dancing . He was a tall man and wore a big white handlebar moustache and wore leather boots made like the old frontier boots you know . And he ' d stand up just as st r aight as he could be and them boots would click out a tune right there on that floor while you played " Arkansas Travelle r". That ' s the tune that he liked to dance to . Mrs . Hash : He wore suspenders , with his thumbs through them . Mr . Hash : Yeah . Can you flat foot? Is it like clogging? It ' s a little bit different from clogging . Mrs . Hash : It ' s more flat footing than anything . Mr . Hash : Yeah , just more or less At the Galax Fiddler ' s Convention , they have flat footing? �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side A. Uh huh . Q. A. Well what ever happened to these dances? Wel~ , as time went along , the younger folks, they had to get out away from here to go to work , to places , because there wasn ' t any work . Things begin to change and it was years and years that the you ng folks , as soon as they got old enough to work on the job, they left here . That ' s what has hurt so bad , if they could have all stayed around and about . was gone about forty years . My brother , he left here . He He lived in New Jersey and he c ame back t o the upper end of Virginia . He wanted to get back into Vi rginia where he had some land up there . a y ear ago , up there in Virginia . He died last summer That ' s where my brothers are now , my two brothers that [are] living , they live up there , aroun d App omatox and Linchbur g . Q. You were telling us ea r lier about your daughter learning how to make inst r uments and things . about that? Why don ' t you tell us a little more [That] you keep it in the family and soon will pass it on . A. Well , she is· making some nice instruments now and I am trying to teach her . I don ' t know much about anything , butI ' m teaching her everything I know about the instruments . Q. How old is she? A. She ' s 26 I guess now . I raised two daughters . what 30? JO . Uh , 26 , yeah The other ' uh is , She lives out in Creston . mad e a dulcimer but one is all she wanted to make . in other ways . She als o She ' s gifted She could have learned it alright but she puts most of her spare time into church work and the teaching o f c hi ld r en . She likes children , she has her Brownie Scouts and this and that and the other . But Audrey , she ' s the instrument maker and she has two little daughters . So Audr ey is getting ready , I think she is advanced in it enough now to try to make a fiddle so I am going to fix her up for making a fiddle [ as] the next instrument she makes . Q. Who are these pictures of? A. Mrs . Hash : Thi s is Audrey , her husband ... �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side C Q. Oh, goodness, I thought they were all children . A. Mrs. Hash: This is my other daughter and her family . Q. What do you consider yourself? A craft s man, an artist ..• ? A. Just an old hard working country boy, (laughing) that's been a jack of all trades and not very good at anything I ' d say. I guess the love of work, I think has really been what put me through so many fields of it. I like to do things and I think anybody that's blessed with a chance to do the things, the type of work that he wants to do and is suited for is really wonderfully blessed that way. I never think of the work that I ' ve done as being a job . It was a pleasure to me and was - it's more or less like going to a fiddler's convention or something like that . It ' s been just alot of interesting things . Never was boring. At times you know, you'll have this and that and the other, little frustrations of one kind and another, but my work as a whole has been really interesting and something that I looked forward to doing and felt like that I had really been blessed by being able to follow up the things that I wanted to work at. Q. So many people are unhappy with what they are doing, they are not satisfied . Like today, do you have any suggesti ons for these kind of people . A. I would . We never know what's on the other side of the hill till we go over there and look . I don't ever advise anybody to do that kind of work which he is not qualified to do or which he doesn't want to do, despi s es to do, for that would be a very boresome life . To have to go out and do a job every day of your working career that you didn't like to do. Say for instance, if I had been a doctor, now that I wouldn't have liked at all. Q. · Even if you made twice, three times ... A. Three times the money - that's beside the point. If you do what you want to do, for after all , I would say happiness in what you are doing, being satisfied in what you are doing is well worth more than that money. I could never have been a coal miner, I could never have been a farmer and been satisfied . The only things I liked about farming - I liked to raise little pigs and l \ �--- - - - ------ Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side C A. Q. A. Q. A. calves and things like that you know . And I like bees that I could keep and have . But I didn ' t care anything about any other crops , didn ' t care enough about it to even remember from one year to the next how much fertili z er I should buy for an acre for oats or corn or anything. I just wa s n ' t, had no, absolutely no interest in it at all . Well , do you think people , when you were growing up, went ahead and did the things more that they wanted to do than people are doing today? I know a lot of people now that are just doing things that they really don ' t want to do . I ' m sure that that's been true all the way along but I think this day age with so many fields open , that that person should not bore himself long to work at something that he doesn ' t like or doesn ' t feel that he ' s going to be satisfied or have a growing, big interest in , because I think he should go over on the other side of the hill and get him something else to do . Try, try again till you find what you ar e well qualified for . Well , what would you think if someone wanted to start making instruments or do some kind of carving or something , do you think it has to be something sort of in you, a talent , or can they just learn it? That would help immensely, but I think that, no , every person would not be an instrument maker . We have certain people that are qualified for one thing . Now maybe he could paint a nice picture , but give him a bunch of tools and he ' d only cut his fingers with them . It would be just as different for me, say for instance, I tried to do something with electricity , which I cannot - I can only put batteries in a flashlight - all I know ·about electricity i s to leave it alone . My brother-in-law comes and does everything for me like t hat , that I need . He wired this till it works from all direction s , you know . And where ever I have this light turned on at, I ca n turn it on from my switch there . Now I can ' t see how he ev e r ca n learn that, so there ' s no way that I coul d do that and I ha ve tri ed to learn it from books and I can ' t catch onto a thing in the world . There ' s just nothing for me to see th e r e . And as I said, I can feel it but I �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side C can ' t see that . If I get into it I ' ll find out that I shouldn ' t have been messing with it in the first place. So let the artist paint a picture and the craftsma n , he can do whatever type of thing he likes to do . another . Some maybe would like one thing and some But if a man likes to build houses then he wouldn ' t be satisfied down in the coal mine somewhere . there building a nice home for somebody . He wants to be up I think that a person should keep looking till they find something that is interesting to them and that they can be interested in all the way through their working career . Then it won ' t hurt you to work . If your work doesn ' t make you tired, it won ' t hurt you, but if you go out to something that you have to do and it makes you tired and you go out there with a bad outlo ok on life then I think if you follow it up, that life is going to be short if you keep it up . I don't think anybody should ever , at any time , should ever knuckle down and work on something they don ' t like to do . Our country has too many things to offer , too many fields are open for them . Maybe one would like to be a doctor or a dentist, another a mini ster , another a black s mith or a machinist or what have you . they can ' t swap places . And You might find one once in a while that can do these other things , but he has his own thing in the long run that he would rather do than something else . So I think he ' ll live longer and be much happier . Q. Mr. Ha sh , are you going to play us a song? A. Oh, I'll make a big noise . Q. Well, let me ask you one more thing before you do it . I don ' t do much playing music . Can you tell us any outstanding things that have happened to you that you can r emember right off hand . ~usician A. Like as an instrument maker or - particular things you remember . I've had lots more happen in th e line of my machinist ' s work than anything else . Q. A. Machinist? Uh huh . I ' ll tell you one story on that line . When I worked for Brunswick , they needed a tube ma king machine that would weld mylore and they gave their engineers about $5 , 000 or $6,000 t o �------ --- - -- -------- Albert Hash Tape 2, Side C that thing, welding as it went, you know . It was a little piece of inch and a quarter wide mylore and when that piece went through there I sent it dovm to the foot of the hill, down where these boys were working with that other and asked them if that looked like about anything they could use (laughing). So one of the engineers came up there in my shop you know , and my shop was only a two-man shop . I had an apprentice boy that worked under me and he never opened his mouth and there it was covered up with a piece of tarp there and he wanted to borrow something . I can't remember what it was now, but that was his excuse to get into the shop. He thought he was going to get to see that thing. I didn't have it, whatever it is and he went off and in a little while he was back and he wanted to borrow something else and he paced around here and he looked this way and he looked that way and I could tell all the time that something was wrong you know. But he wasn't a-going to tell me anything . And I told him I didn't have whatever it was that he wanted that time you know, and I didn't. It was probably something I never heard tell of, but anyhow when he made his third trip back, he said , " Would you mind demonstrating to me how you made that piece of tubing? " I said, "Well, I'll be glad to." And I just went and pitched that old cover off that machine and it was a little compact rig about that long, and I plugged it in and had to wait just a few minutes for the heat to come on you know, so it was welding with a simple little soldering iron that I had turned a little wheel and put out on the hot end of it out here to roll over that mylore and it just welded it together as pretty as you please. I had a variak on it which regulated the amount of heat that would come in · on it. And he got down on the floor and looked at that thing. And he looked at it and looked at it and he said , "According to science , this thing is not supposed to work ." I said , "According to science a bumble bee is not supposed to fly, but it does." And I ran him off several pieces of it. I could run it the length of my shop which is about 60 feet and if I opened the door, I could put . it to the end of the hill to the m dovm there , you know. �-----Albert Hash Tape 2, Side C And they forgot their machine. They never did anything more to it, but they made me get a patent on t hat. I didn't want a patent on ·it, I didn't want any publicity on it or - I didn't ask any favors. All I wanted to do was my day's work you know. all I ever cared about. I didn't want any credits for anything. "Oh, you must have a patent," they s aid. want any patent. That's I said, "No, I don't I don't ever intend to manufacture those things." "Yeah, but you need a patent on it," they said. I said, "No, I wouldn't fill out a bunch of papers to get a patent on that. I know it's going to run into a bunch of paperwork and that I can't stand - to hear papers rattle." So they brought the papers up, "Now fill these out, we want to get you a patent on that. ought to have a patent." And I wouldn't fill them out. You And they come gathered the papers up and went and filled them out. come back and said would you sign thi s . And I signed my name on it. They gave me a dollar for my patent on it. It belongs to Bruns- sick but they can't ever ma nufa ctur e without my signing for it you know, i~ they should ever wa nt to manufacture a machine like that, which they won't, no doub t . But that was one - just one. There's been many many of them. He begins to tune his fiddle ... Sometimes one head is as good as a do z en in something like that and sometimes I think it is better because one man can work out, he can work the details out on anything so much better than a dozen can because they are all looking from a different angle at what you are doing. And one will see this thing and another will see that thing and they finally agree to disagree on everything and that's what slowed our works down a whole lot. involved in something, it begins to drag. If too many people I think if you put it, anything like that in the hand s of a f e w, y ou'll come out much better in the long run. And too, I believe, now I'm not downing education in any way, you know, I think it's a wonderful thing, I wish I could've got a lot more of it than wha t I did, but I think people have studied too much, the y t hink t oo much, they run out yonder and they don't see the s impler way s o f doing things. They go way out yonder and they come b a ck with an elaborate piece of machinery which as I said, you could take the near cuts and do �- ..-:·' - ... - - - - - - .. '· .' Albert Hash Tape 2, Side C A. just like I did. Their machine was an impressive looking thing but it didn't work, that was the worst part of it. Q. That's really something. ~. You get too complex with things sometimes. I think alot of our things that we have in this day and age are that way. that they don't work. So much Q. What can be done about it? A. Simplify everything. Q. How do you get people to go along with it? A. It's hard to do. Q. Just show them like you did. A. That's the only way and then what are they going to take from a Q. man that never - I don't have any diplomas to hang up anywhere. But you have originality. A. Yeah. Q. Alot of those people that have diplomas - they have the education but they don't have the originality. A. That's what I think hurt in that case there. They couldn't actually see that thing working there . Q. You've got alot of ribbon s too . A. Those are the ones I got away from the judges. fast. Why don't you tell us about them. I can run pretty (laughing) Q. Why don't you tell us about some of those. A. Well, alot of hard fiddling went into those. And alot of fun. Got to meet alot of fiddlers, both blue grass and the old timey. Lost many of an hour's sleep over those things. Q. What? A. No, just being there. Worrying? We'd go and stay all night. ·wouldn't get back until daylight, you know. Sometimes I And one time I got my car off the road over back of this mountain here in the fog and didn't make it home till about nine o'clock the next day. I went through [a] flood to get to one of them . Oh, I'd go fur- ther to a fiddler's convention when I was a younger man than most people would to elections. Q. What happened with that flood? �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side C A. Oh , I got started out , [and] decided to stop over there at Sugar Grove . I came down from the plant and was going to eat my supper, you know , and then go on out to the fiddler ' s convention , which was out in a place they called Adwolf over there . And I looked back out that way and it was so dark you know and raining - Boy it was ever more than a- storming out in there . I decided , well , I ' ll go on and I had my supper and I started on out through there and I finally got to seeing water in the road and I kept venturing along and finally at last there was nothing but water . And the car - I didn ' t know what to do . I came to a bridge and I didn ' t know whether the bridg e was there or not - I could see part of the railing sticking up, you know ... ( Part of the conversation lost as the tape ran out on one side .) ..• let him pass me right here and I stopped my car and he waited a while for me to go on but I wouldn ' t go on and he finally tried to go on and I followed him out that road and there was water in the fields. There was water in the road . And sometimes it was way up towards the floor of the car and .I decided that if I ever ' got to a place where the ground was high enough , you know that ' s low level country out there , I will stay in that thing till this · water goes down and I ' ll turn it around and go back home . But after I got to the high ground , I saw I was getting up above the flood and I went on to the fiddler ' s convention . On that very next morning , coming out of there , that ' s when it rained and got so foggy I couldn ' t see . The highway wasn ' t marked , you know , and there ' s no way in the world - I drove with my head sticking out the window till I was drowned nearly and thought , well if I could , get to the top of this hill , the fog will be lighter , or something or other , and I felt my car bumping over the rocks and I ' d got off the road on the lower side . I sat there till daylight . But I ' d say the one fiddler ' s convention that has meant most to me and the one little ribbon that I got from that which is about the least , scrawniest I ' ve got - wa s the one from Galax . I ' d always wanted to win something down t here . I got down there and I �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side D believe there was 164 fiddlers to fiddle again . I decided well, it looks like a slim chance of getting anything here but when I went out there I went out for the kill you know . stage . Right on the Now that was a fiddler's convention like they are supposed to be had . You went out and played just the one instrument , you weren ' t backed up by a guitar or a banjo or something like that . You went out there all by yourself and you played . ~I really gave it everything I had but there ' s one other fella - he had it won befo r e he played . Joe Greene - he ' s in television . Has had a lot of records with the major companies , you know , and so on . But Joe , he went out with a flashy green suit with alot of fanc y trimmings on it and all that stuff and they began to scream before he played you know , and naturally he got first place . I was satisfied to get anything . But Now that was on about a Friday and then I didn ' t have to play till Saturday I don't believe . Yeah , I had to play Thursday and Saturday . Then on Sunday morning , getting away towards daylight I had decided to go . I didn ' t look to win anything myself you kno w, but I just couldn ' t leave that place . Everytime I ' d start to leave , somebody would play some- thing pretty on the fiddle up there on that stage and I ' d just have to go back . I started about three times to my car , you know to leave , I ' d decide well , it can ' t hurt nothing to stay a little longer and it ' ll be daylight a-driving home . It had rained and the mud was about four inche s deep there and Wayne Henderson , he and I had just kind of gotten out towards the side of the stage and hunkered down in that mud resting , and we were pretty well r eady to rest , and they began to call out the winners and when they called my name there I couldn ' t hardly remember whether , it was me or somebody else . But I went up and got my r ibbon and that I think was what helped me you know . be as good a loser as I was winner . But I always tried to I never have played at any of them and ever thought that I really deserved anything . I always thought the other fella' s mu s ic sounded lots better than mine and I never - I always jus t t o ok the judges ' decision about anything like that, but ... �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side D . ; Q. How do they decide? A. Well, they usually have three judges and they judge them on point s . Your tuning, your performance and showmanship . different things . ' to judge them . There ' s several I ' ve judged a couple myself, you know , helped And it is one headache . You get about 25 up there that all play so near alike that you couldn ' t tell any difference in them you know . And maybe - if one doesn ' t stick out better than the rest like a sore thumb - you just don't hardly know who to give that to . You can just do your utmost to be as honest and fair and square as you can and there wouldn't be any way that you would know exactly who should win that . It ' ll give you a headache . Q. Why don't you play a little for us now? A. Okay. (Begins to tune fiddle) Is that all you do now? Working with wood and stuff ... You don't Q. work at a job now . A. I don ' t go out to a job anymore . October a year ago . Q. I haven't worked since last I ' ve just piddled around here and so on . Get in Ethel's way while she ' s working . Well, do peep.le come i.;_ pretty often to get you to show them p how to make something? A. Oh yeah , I give alot of advice . age , David Sturgill? If you remember a fella about my David has a_,guitar factory down here in Allegheny County and it ' s quite a factory too . hundreds of guitars a year there . He can manufacture He had two boys , Johnny and Danny, twin boys, that helped him and he takes ih apprentices , which are students that want to learn the makircg of instruments and they work in there . He starts them out in the rougher works and then wo rks them up tc where they can handle the finished product s you kno w. Alot of these young folks come up from his fac- tory there, boys and girls . He dcesn 't fool much with violins you know and they like to learn something about violins , about violin making, and so on and I tell them how it ' s all done and show them and I always hav e them in all stages of completion and give them a good start on hew to make one . I made one for one of the boys down there - a real good instrument. It turned out real �:· Albert Hash Tape 2, Side D good and he really treasures it . I always have names for my instruments you know . I name them after my grandchildren and this and that and the ether . This one particular one I felt kind of, I had tried it out , I try them out before I put the varnish on and this was a good instrument and I said what am I going to narr,e this one? And then he came to me " vlhy don ' t you name it something appropriate? " I said okay I ' 11 just ca l l it the Screaming. Witch . (laughing) And so I named it the Screaming Witch and when I finished it , I finished it in blood red . Oh , it was red , that fiddle . Q. A. Q. A. You named it after your wife? (laughter) She claimed I did . But I didn ' t think of her just then . I thought she was pretty clever to think about it . ( laughter ) But I had named mandolins and banjos and this and that and the other after my grandchildren . He really likes his instrument and he ' s doing good on playing it . I get to teach him a wh6le lot about the making of the instrt..ment~; and so on . And too , I will hunt him up and give him the wood . Well , would you take on somebody as an apprentice? Uh , I couldn ' t hardly , if I intended to do that on any big scale , I wouldn ' t mir.d doing that . But since I don ' t have any more stock or any more room than I do , why I ' ll tell them anything that I can to help them out but I wouldn ' t have enough work at all to get it to that big a thing . Because I like to keep it to where it would just be , more or less , a hobby and a pleasur e . But if I went into it as a way to make money out of it then I could do it , but I don ' t care if I make any money out of it or not . So I just make them you know . I like to teach them . I always figured that the best thing s c f life were t he free things c>.nd if I can pass on anything that I have happened to stagger on and learn to somebody else that will help them , I ' ve done nothing other than my duty . Mrs . Hash : He make s alot of tapes for these people that come from all around that make tapes of him a-playing the old time tunes you know . So they can learn from ttat , don ' t you Albert? �- - -·- - - - Albert Ha s h Tape 2 , Side D A. Q. A. Yeah . To help t hem to l e a rn to play the fiddle . Because they like the old traditi onal way of pla ying . I had a gr eat uncle that was a fiddler and one of the be st . He could play the best of anybody I have ever heard and he ~a s a l ong , tall , straight fella , wore a vest and he ' d but ton tha t v est up t c th e last button and then he ' d pull it back and stick that fiddle back there . That ' s the way he held it and he ' d just miss hi s face with that bow just by a very littl e , you know a nd how h e could play one of them . .. i inaudible s ection of tape} .. He could heat anybody I ' d ever heard of . I ' d of liked to hear him when he wa s younger and r eally active in playing . Well , do you like classical music with the violins? I like violin music of any kind but the only music that I understand , now I don ' t know a note in music, not one note do I know . It ' s just the music of the mountains here , the music that I was brovght up with a s I came along and heard these old fiddlers playing . I learned that and then the blue grass came along , I decided to learn that and then I decided I didn ' t want to learn it , that I wanted to keep my old traditional kind of music as pure and as unadulturated as I possibly could . I don ' t try to learn blue grass , I don't try to learn any of t he new stuff that comes out . I just keep back and I ' ve got records , I ' ve got hundreds of records you know . Several hundred of them of fiddlers from all over this country and even some from out of it . But unless it ' s my kind , I don ' t pay any attention to it much . I like to hear it now , just for entertainment , but I don't try to learn it , any of it because every locality had its bunch of tunes and I have several of the old original tunes from around here . I have one from down here [in] Crumpler, North Carolina , that ' s just over the line . You know , my grandfather had a cousin that was a lady fiddler and she played a tune called "Nancy Blevins" and he danced , he was two years old and still wearing a dress like little boys wore back in the old days . And he danced with his dress on to the tune of " Nancy Blevins" and he told me about it and I heard a fella play it one time and I got him to teach me this s o I could remember i t on account of t ha t and one about the �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side D .. ~ inaudible section of tape} .. I know that one too and then I was acquainted with alot of the older musicians. Henry Whittier was a r ecording artist and I played with him after his buddy GB Grayson was · killed . He got killed in action , I [had] played with him and Whittier , he (Whittier) was one of the early recording artists you know . He recorded in , I believe it was Camden or Trenton , New Jersey and then someplace in Georgia then , Atlanta , Georgia I believe it was . We were going to record some records at that time , I was only a lad , but Mr . Whittier ' s health got bad and he finally wound up in the institution you know and died right away . And I never have had any desire to make records or anything . They are at me he r e lately and I recorded , well I recorded alot for the Library of Congress , but I never wanted to go out and p l ay musi c for a living or go on the road with it . That would have made a job out of it and I didn ' t want that and I didn ' t want to make records . I have had several bands together that could have cut some good records you know . But we didn ' t care enough about it to go ahead and do it because - well , [we] just didn ' t do it fo r that reason you know . It wasn ' t a money making thing . never think of it as something to make money with . I Right lately I have recorded two tunes that - You people may have run into him somewhere or other , (name inaudible) who recorded for the Library of Congress and he got at me to record some . There ' s about , (to his wife) what , about 16 or 18 different ones? that pla;ed tunes on this one album that he was trying to gather up of the mountain music . And I played two tunes on that which will be on Rounder Records . And t he paperwork [and] the contracts - just signed [them] and didn ' t mess with them , y ou know . A~d then this mountain record , we have practiced to make an album for mountain rec ords . He wants the old tunes that hardly anybody every plays any:no re . And I ' ve g ot about twelve or fourteen tunes of that kind t ha t we ' l l put on that r e cord with the old five st r uments like they had back t hen , you know . That should be a p retty good ' un for them that want to learn the old time music b e c ause it will be in its purity . There won ' t be any half played �- - - - ---- -- -- ---- Al be rt Hash Tape 2 , Side D stuff in it or anything . I don ' t mean that I ' m any great fiddler o r anything , but it will be , the notes u sed in the right way ... ( tuning his fiddle ) ' So when we get that done , we should have had it already , but the weather ' s been so bad up here and we ' d have to go down to Galax to this fella ' s recording facilities . And he ' s getting old . Q. I don ' t understand about the Library of Congress . are recording for it? A. Yeah , they have this big library of recorded music and folk I mean , you music , folk lore and what have you , you know , and that is just like a book library in a way . Q. It ' s up here in Washington , D. C. Ma r ion - I r emember they were here in Asheville and Columbia . J ane - No , I didn ' t know that , I never heard a thing about it . A. And you can go there . If you should go there and say I would like to hear a tune by or some music by Albert Hash , they can hunt that up right quick and play it for you . And too , alot of it is kept kind of as a record would be kept . So much of i t goes into cylinders and is deposited in certain safe keeping vaults to be 'played , say if time should go on , in a thou sand y ears from now , it ' ll still be ready to play . They came over here , to Wayne Hender s on ' s father , Walter Henderson , he was an old time fiddler and they recorded quite a bit of him . And Slim Ball , you ' ve probably heard his gospel ... Mrs . Hash : Mr . Hash : E . C. Ball I guess you might know him by . Yeah . Music from him and his wife . They reco r ded alot , years ago , for the Library of Congress . Now they are re co r ding alot on their own . They live just across the hills ther e . Q. How long ago did you do this for the Library of Congress? A. Six or seven years ago . ( tuning his fiddle) Q. The bow is not made out of horsehair , is it? Oh , this last one was last summer . (laughing ) Did you catch the horse? A. They have tried everything , even fiberglas s , nylon , rayon and everything else to try to make bows , but nothing will work like that ho r se hair . 'i �•. Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side D Q. Well, I thought you just did that, that you didn ' t really know it was horsehair . ~twas A. No , ~ that I got acquainted with at the arts and crafts festival . horsehair . There ' s a lady who has a bunch of horses In grooming her horses , she cut out alot of their tails and she sent me a r oll of horsehair - oh , that big around . Mrs . Hash : Mr . Hash : Alot of it was too short wasn ' t it? Uh huh . To fill these bows is quite a little trick , to put the hair in them you know . And keep it straight . Q. It doesn ' t need to be white horsehai r though? A. No , it can be black or it can be a sorrel or bay o r any kind , as long as it ' s horsehair it does the same . Q. You made that too ( referring to the bow)? A. No , I didn ' t make the bow . We don ' t have a native wood s u itable fo r mak ing the bows . This bow stick must be a ve r y stro·ng wood to stand the pressure of that hair and still hold its shape in here . Now , I ' ve made bows out of rosewood but we don ' t have a native wood that is suitable for making a fiddle bow . You either get , some people pronounce it Perna'mbico and some Pernamb~k~ wood . It ' s f r om , it ' s Brazil wood to make the bows out of and most of the bows that are made are imported . [There are] not any bow- makers in this country I ' d say that amount to anything . do have some first class violin makers around about . But we Two that I know of , one that I was acquainted with was Scott Herman , he was a German fel l a that had a violin shop in Washington , D.C. When I was up there he wanted me to work with him but I was tied up there with that Navy . with him up there . I would have given anything to have worked He ' d go and open that vault up where he had his inst r uments and he had some out . The wood was , I believe he said the wood was five or six hundred years old . Some of the boys had sent him some wood out the Abbey of Cocina , one the of the spruce beams from the Second World War when they tore the mona stery down over there . was . This monastery in Italy , I believe it They sent him some wood and he had made the top (inaudible ) out of that wood and he was getting about $1400 . each for the fiddles made out of that then , you know . Work wasn ' t so �Albert Hash Tape 2 , Side D high as it is now ... (tuning his fiddle) Now I may be stiffer than an old working mule for I ' ve not tried to play any since I was over to the college ... Continued on Tape 3 - playing his music . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hash, Albert Interview Date 2/5/1976 Number of pages 48 pages Date digitized 9/19/2014 File size 32.7MB Checksum alphanumeric code f115dd3ecdebb91ef91196e20b9b7f4c Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape337_AlbertHash_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Albert Hash [Feburary 5, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hash, Albert Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Appalachian Region, Southern--Social life and customs--20th century Violin--Construction--Appalachian Region, Southern Clock and watch making--Appalachian Region, Southern Hash, Albert Description An account of the resource Albert Hash began making things out of wood at a young age. He had a dream as a child about making a fiddle, and did the best he could with the tools he had and a plank of wood. He continued to perfect his wood-working and carving skills and began to make more instruments. He also worked in clock making, farmed for a short time, and went to school for mechanical engineering. Albert Hash Alexandria Ashe County banjos Brunswick childhood dances clock making clocks corn shucking curly maple David Sturgill farming fiddle fiddle making Fiddler's Convention flat footing guitar making Havre-De-Grace Lansing Library of Congress machine shop machinist mandolins mechanical engineering Richmond Fair Ringling Brothers Circus Smithsonian Institute Sprague Electric Company spruce square dancing Sugar Grove Timberline Magazine Virginia Virginia Reel Virginia Supply Company walnut wood Wayne Henderson White Top Mountain wood carving https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2e109166b51ca3a355ab1722712bc90d.pdf fef526d36099634e28ce11fa81579a98 PDF Text Text #336 Dewey E. Helms This is an Appalachian Oral History Project interview with Marion, North Carolina who is retired textile mill worker. Dew~y Helms of He was inter- viewed of January 10 , 1976 by Sam Howie . Q: First of all , where were you born? A: I was born in Mc Dowell County. Q: Do you remember the township? A: I was born in Marion. Q: Marion? A: Yep . Q: Was it outside the town or within the town limits? A: It was about a mile out of town . Q: What year were you born? A: 1903. Q: What did your parents do for a living? A: They farmed part of the time and my father was a carpenter. the carpenter trade for a while . He worked at .. �2 Q: Was it a fairly large family that you were born into? A: There were eight of us: Q: When you and your brothers turned eighteen or twenty, what did most of you do? four byys and four girls. Were most of you staying on your fattl.er's place or did you go out to work-to what they called public work? A: We stayed at home most of the time until we finished school and worked kind of part-time. I worked between school terms in a furniture factory and my older brother sold insurance. I believe he was in Greenwood, South Carolina and the girls stayed home until they were married. Q: Which furniture factory? Was it · one in Marion? A: Yes, Drexel Furniture Factory. Q: Do you remember when it opened? A: No. I don't re.member. Q: I remember you told me that you first went to work in the mills in 1923. A: Yes, right, July l, 1923. Q: Was that for Clinchfield? A: Yes, it was. Q: You were saying earlier that one of the Clinchfield mills opened in 1916. A: There were two mills, the north and south plant. . The south plant I''m absolutely certain opened in 1916 and I believe the other one opened in 1911. �3 I'm not sure. Q: Which one did you go to work in? A: I went to work in, ' I reckon, what they call the north plant. The older mill. Q: Do you remember when East Marion might have been opened:? A: 1905, I think. Q: You don't recall when Cross mills first opened do you? A: No, but it was later, probably around 1917 or 18. Q: Did you do any other kind of work besides furniture before you went into It started in 1905. the mills in 192 3.? A: No . Nothing but farm and cut wood. Q: So you knew how to farm. A: Yes, pretty much Q: What kind of farming did your father do? A: No, mostly corn. vegetables. Q: Did he raise beef or what? Well, that was our biggest crop ... corn and just We pl!actically lived on what we made. Was it possible to have some income from farming in those years? �4 A: No, very little income. Q: Can you ~ay why it was you decided to go to work in the mill? Wli:y you were first attracted to the mill, to working in the mill? A: Well, like I told you, I worked between school terms and I tried the furniture factories. I only made ll¢ an hour at the furniture factories. were paying more at the mills and I decided to try the mills. work . 11re one summer, but I wound up staying. and we were running five days and a half. til eleven o'clock on Saturday. eleven hours a day. I intended to I went in the weave room At least we run, the mill run un- About sixty hours a week. We worked about We went to work at six o'clock in the morning and worked until six o'clock in the evening. clock in the morning. They We were supposed to go to work at seven o' We were supposed to have a ten hour work day in North Carolina, but it was never enforced. Q: You mean there was a ten hour work law? A: Supposedly, yes, supposed to be. It was enforced in South Carolina, but it was never enforced in North Carolina. We went to work at six o'clock in the morning and worked until six in the evening. Saturday morning and worked until eleven. We went towork at six o'clock on I went to work for thirteen dollars and eighty five cents a week. Q: What was that an hour? A: (Laugh) I don't know. Q: Okay. A: Supposed to have been fifty five hours, but we were working sixty hours. �5 Q: Did you get paid for the extra five hours? A: No. Q: The company said, "You want the job, you've got to work. A: That's right. 11 If you didn't want it., there were a lot of people waiting for it . Q: There were a lot of people that wanted to work in the mills? A: Yes . Q: But then generally you went to the mills because it was possible to make a little bit more money than in the furniture factory. A: Yes , that's right. Q: Other than the cotton mills and the furniture industry, was there any other kind of work available in the Marion or Mc Dowel 1 County area? A: No, the only thing was the railr oad. They had section crews on the rail- road, but you couldn't ever get a job on the railroad. Q: There just weren't any jobs there? A: None. Q: Did they pay well, the railroads? A: No , not too well. I've forgotten that. I knew my father worked for South- ern Railroad Company for a while for a dollar and tea cents a day, but I guess that was before I was old enough to go to work. Q: Were you still going to school then when you started working at Clinch- field the first time ? Ai Yes. Q: And you just stayed on? �6 A: Yes, I just stayed on. Q: You said when you went to work for them, you went to .work in weaving. A: Yes. Q: Clirichfield, as I understand it from Mr. Hicks, was just turning out woven cloth. A: It wasn't doing any printing or dying. Just what they call "printll cloth. 64, 64--64, 60 and 80 64, 50 a filling. Q: Is that coarse cloth? A: No, it's pretty fine. Q: What did you do in weaving? A: I started in the loom plant, just cleaning looms with a brush and that was It's thin cloth. What was your job? before they used air jets, or compressors. I cleaned looms with a brush un- til I learned a little bit about weaving and I started weaving on sixteen looms. We had to learn on our own. Tpey didn 't pay for no learning. Q: You mean they wouldn't t r ain you? A: No. There was no training program at all. And if you tried hard you could, after a year or so, you could start weaving on the looms. more and a good weaver made right much more. They even paid a little I started work in 1923. started fixing looms in 1925 for nineteen dollars and sixty cents a week. friends easy and the fellows helped me out a whole lot. 1925, and I fixed looms until about 1945, I guess. Q: Fixing what does that involve? A: Just keeping a loom running making good cloth. I I made I started fixing in �7 Q: Just repairing it and keeping it going? A: Yes. Q: Is it as good a job as weaving or better? When you were weaving were you on piece work or was it possible to be on piece work in weaving? A: They figured by cut. what they called a cut. hundred and ten yards. TB.ere was a cut mark on every They put a blue mark on it with a slash around it . Q: Yes. A: A blue mark at the cut for a cut mark and the weaver had to keep the looms running, fill the batteries. and take off the cloth. on 'til 1936. That probably went Then they went on what we called a "stretch-out system" and they give the weaver more looms. where we were running twenty-four looms. They gave them fortyeight. doff the cloth. They had battery fillers on them and somebody to They took the battery filling and cloth doffing off the weaver and gave them more looms. It was called the "stretch-out system. " Q: More production ... in the same period of time. A: Finally they went on and kept adding help and they got up to seventy two looms in the weaving. Q: You had to really work fast on that didn't you? fixer . . . and you stayed a fixer until sometime in the A: But by 1925, you were a 1 40' s? Around sometime in the !40's. I went over in supervision. I stayed a supervisor until I retired. Q: All the time with Clinchfield? A: No. I worked at Clinchfield until 1940. Q: And you were a supervisor at East Marion? A: Yes. April of 1942 I went to East Marion. East Marion was installing new machinery and I was interested in �8 learning more about it. I went over there for that purpose, to learn something about the machinery. A: Yeah. I was married Ln 1924 and I went to house keeping in the mill village . Q: Was it a company policy that you had to live in the village to work for Clinch- field? A: No . there was no living requirement . If you wanted to live in a three room house that was forty fi ve cents a week and if you rented four rooms, about as much a s they had, they had a few six room houses. then that included your lights. Four room house was sixty cents a week and Sometimes I guess back in the '20's they wired the village . Q: Would that have been cheaper rent than renting somewhere else in the town? A: Yes, it would. Q: During that early period did the mills operate a company store for the workers? A: Yes. Q: Was it just a general store? Did it have grocer ces in it and clothing and just about anything you need? A: General store, yes, hardware, clothing. groceries. Q: Were the prices cheaper in the company store than anywhere else in town? A : No, they were not. �9 Q: They were the s : me or higher? A: They were about the same. What you could do was if you bought from the com- pany store, they had a checking list system . You could go to the office and get a check on your tlme and pay for your groceries or whatever you bought. It came out on a ticket on Saturday at the end. Q: They gave you credit in other words. A: Yes , they just wrote you what we c a lled a (speaking to someone else) a ticket wasn't it? (othe r person answering) : Some kind of ticket you got and you go down to the office window and you tell them how much you w a nted and they wrote it. You gave it to the store manager for what you bought and then at the end of the week it would come out of your check. Lots of people ne ver did draw a dime in pay. They never did draw any money. (other person-NOTE: other person was Mr. Helms' wiie) They had some kind of old books too, that people would ... A: Yeah, they had coupon books from a dollar to five dollars and you could get a dollar coupon book if you wanted to buy a small amount at a time sometimes ten or fifteen cents worth of something. dollars. They'd tear out a coupon and that went up to five Five dollars would just about pay for a week's groceries. Mrs. Helms: Some of the men made money with books. You could get them for a dollar cheaper than you could go to the office and get them yourself too, couldn't you? �10 A: Yeah. A lot of people sold their books. They'd get a five dolar coupon book and sell it for three dollars and se venty-five cents. You could, if you had the money to buy the books, you were lucky and you could get flve dollars worth of groceries for three seventy.five. Q: Well, waht about the ones that were selling them? A: They were losing , yeah. They were losing. Thet were really cutting their wages. Q: Wonder why they wanted to do that? A: Well, money was scarce and if you had to go the the doctor you had to pay them a dollar. So they sold their two dollar book to get a dollar and a half for it . Then they could pay their doctor bill and hospital or drug store bill with a dollar and a half. Q: So, they did it just to get. some ready cash. A: Yeah, just in an occassional emergency. Q: During ~he '20's , you said there were a bt of people trying to get work in the mills and there weren't enough jobs for everybody. the mills during the '20's? Was it possible to move up in That is, you became a fixer ... A: Yes •.. depending altogether on how hard you tried. Q: But could it be done.? A: Yes . Q: You could improve your situation. During the '2 0 ' s, did wages increase or sta y �11 the same or for the same job? A: They ne ver increased. We might have gotten a few small raised. but they would decrease too, in the '20's and on up into the '30's. In the summertive usually from probably June until September they ran three or four days a week, curtailed, and that happened for several years in succession. The market was bad. They couldn 't sell the cloth so they curtailed and it was awfully hard to make a living. Q: That was during the Depressian? A: Yeah. Q: Wa ges might have stayed the same, but there just wasn't enough work during the week, enough hours. A: Wages didn't vary much from 1920 'til I guess it was 1936 when we went on eight hour : Q: Yes. Mrs. Helms: That's when Social Security started wasn't it? A: Yeah when President Roosevelt came in. Q: Compared to other jobs a man might have had ~n the area during the '20' s and say '30 's too, was the work in the mills generally hard? Was it say as hard as farming or working in furniture or something liRe that? A: Well, it was steady work. did. You had to keep busy and especially in the weave room YOl The lunch period, I belie ve, and that's the only time you ever got and slack. �12 Of course, the weavers did all they could to keep their production up and make as much money as they could and the supervisors saw that our hands st,5lyed busy. The first two years that I worked, I worked for them by the hour. Q: That's when you were cleaning? A: Yeah, cleaning, taking our quills , and sweeping and I had enough spare time to learn a little bit about weaving. They had two 16 loom sets in the mill and the rest of them were 20-24 and 26 . and I got to where I could run a sixteen mill set. didn't pay much more than cleaning, about the same. I felt like I was getting somewhere. during that time. It Anyway, I was progressing. Then I went on the smash job, I learned smash Do you know anything about the mills? What the smash job is? Q: I know what weaving and fixing, but I don't know what a smash job is. A: Well, sometimes a loom would make a break, break all the warp our for a space maybe six or eight inches wide and that was the smash hand's job to draw all of the threads in and get the looms ready for the fixer to start up Q: Yes. A: I learned to do that and then I learned to fix a '.little. Then finally I became a reg- ul2.r fixer sometime in 1925 probably in the later part of 1925. Q: How did that work? You were working in a smash job or cleaaing or something and you watched a fixer do his job and you figured out what it was he did . Could you go to the supervisor when a fixer job came open and say, "Well, · I know how to do that, could you consider me for that?" Is that how you got that job? �13 A: Yeah. Q: You just had to teach yourself and then ... A: Yes, what they'd do, some of the fixers would help you out for a while, explain things to you and tell you how .it worked. job, you went and asked for it, applied for it. When you felt like you could run a Sometimes they'd laugh at you (laughter) 2.nd sometimes they'd consider you. Q: Yeah. Who were the supervisors? Were they people from around here or ... A: My first supervisor was originally from Madison County, but he l ived in the village at that time. Q: Yes. A: George Reynolds. Now he's been a minister of the Gospel for several years. He's eighty-two or three years old and he's still preaching. Q: Yes. A: And lives in Black Mountain. Q: Were the majority of the supervisors, when you first went to work, from outside the county? You said he was from Madison County. A: He was raised in Madison County. Most of the people that worked in the mill that I knew came from Madison, Heywood, Yancey, and Mitchell Counties. Q: Yeah, that's what Mr. Hicks said. That was in the early and middle '20's. �14 In the 1 30 1 s. were the people still coming from Madison and Yancey and Mitchell Counties? A: They certainly we r e , yes s ir. Q: But were there some from McDowell County that were working in the mills? A: Yes, a lot of people from McDowell County were working. whole families. They would hire Suppose a man came along and had flve ar six or seven childres were old enough to work . They would hire the whole family and give him a house to live in and I think that they figured they would keep that family. I mean, they'd be satisfied if they hired that family and stayed there, make permanent bands . Q : They wouldn't be moving on. They woul dn ' t be as ready to move on as say a single man? A: Yeah, right. But there wasn 't much place to go. and people were continually changing. There just wasn't any work I don't know why, but the p eople were continually coming from Spartanburg, Gaffney, and e ven Greenville, a nd Rutherford County coming here for jobs , loom fixing and all that and it didn't pay any more . I don't know if they were discharged or why they moved ..• END OF SIDE 1 TAPE #1 SIDE #2 Q : Was it your impression that the mills in Mari on pa ..d as much and had as good working hou r s and conditions as say in Greenville or Spartanburg .. . A: Yeah, about the same . About the same . Q: So people we r en't coming here for any real reason then . They were just sort �15 of drifting . A : Yeah. Q: Perry Hicks said that a lot of the supervisors and he went to work in 1919 . He said a laot of his supervisors in the early '2 's were from South Carolina, because the y had more mills down there and peopl could pick up skills and know more ab':out it than they could up here. A: Those men weat on to make overseers. visors out of them. If a man qualified they'd make supe r - I think it depended a whole lot on whether the overseer liked you or not more than it d i d on your ability. Nov. that was always the way it looked to me . Q: That was in the '20's. A: Yeah. Q: Did it seem to you that there were a lot of people who would switch from one mill to the other? Start at East Marion and come to tone of the Clinchfield mills then go to Cross mills . A: Yes, they di d 'Switch alot. I never did understand why, whether or not they were discharged from their jobs or whether they decided to move , just got mad about something and decided t o move. I don't know what . Q : Was there that much difference between wbrking at one and working at the othe r ? A: C r oss mill was a spinning mill , they didn 't do any weaving. Clinchfield and �16 East Ma r ion both were weaving mills. C r oss mill. For some reason people liked to wor k at They we r e treated a little better, I think. Q: Yes. A: It was indi vidually owned and they just treated t heir help a little better and they paid a little, a few cents more at that time. Howe ver, the other mills finally got to paying more than Cross Mill. Q: Yes. D id C r os s have a village, a mill village? A: Yes, they had one. They st ill own thei r village. Cross mill still owns and rents its houses. Q: But East Marion and Clinchfield sold their houses to the workers~ A: Yes. Q: Who owns C r oss now? A: Eugene Cross, the Cross family. Q: Yeah. A: I imagine they have a lot of stock holders, but ..•... Q: Other than those three, Cross, Clinchfield, and E a st M a rion, there wasn't any othe r mill in McDowell County in say 1925, or later that you recall? A: No, the r e were no other mills in McDowell County. Thread was the next one. I believe, American �11 .. Mrs~ Helms: No , it came years later. A: I imagine it was 1950 when American Thread came. Q: Do you recall who the owners of Clinchfield and East Marion were in the '20 's? Do you recall their names, who they were or ... mainly where they were from? Were they from around here? A: Now , I think that the same people built both mills. and later on it was mostly locally owned. East Marion started up They buily Clinchfield up and I did know the history pretty well, but I'm pretty sure .... Mrs . Helms: A: "Baldwins, Carol Baldwin from Baltimore. He owned the controlling interest in East Marion and ... Q: Does the name Ha.rt ring a bell with Clinchfield? A: Sir? Q: Hart. Do you recall a man named Hart in connection with Clinchfield? A: Yeah. Anyway, there was some disagreement somehow and one faction tooK. over East Marion and the other one, Clinchfield. Q: Yes . A: But, I've forgotten just how it was. �18 Q: But the same people were invoLred when both mills first started up. You don't recall what it is they had a dispute o ver do you? I don't know of .... A: No, sir, I don't. I, it hasn't been too long. Not too many years since I read the history of that , but I've forgotten. Q: Where did you read that? Was it printed up somewhere? A: It was printed material, but I've forgotten what it ..... Q: Wasn't in the newspaper was it? O r was it? A: I don't remember, I'm not sure. It might not have been any special edition of the newspaper. I don't know. Q: Was it your feeling that Clinchfield and East Mari n were fairly profltable for the owners? A: Yes. I think they were fairly profitable. They made some money, because when they finally decided to remodel, install the new machinery they had the money t o do it with. I know that, because I was more or less on the inside when thet started to remodel and install new machinery. it. Why, I know t hat they had the money to pay for The mills in the early '20's and 1 30's were dirty and hot. The weaver's room was awful hot and they didn't have any ventilation, except what they called a skylight. They had a little window over the window that they pulled in and le~ a little air in, but they didn't allow you much ventilation and your work wouldn't run good. running around a hundred degrees, ninety five. unbearable. It was In the summertive it was almost �19 I think that the weave r ooms were the hottest place there was. In the latter years I found out that it was more just an idea than anything else, because we finally went to running the we ave room down t o seventy degrees during summer. Q: You mean there wasn't any point in keeping them hot? A: No. We got air con ditioning to keep it down I believe that was the supervisor or the plant m a nager, I don't know. humidifying system. But they were dirty The floors stayed wet in places. a rm or leg, th t wa s your experience at work . ensation, workman ' s compensation. Q: If Wfl. nd we had a old model If you fell and broke your They didn't have any kind of comp- got hurt, we just got hurt. Lost your pay? A: Lost pay, yes . Paid our doctor bills. Q: Was th ere a c ompany doctor or company nurse? A: No, there wasn't any company doctor. Q: Any kind of first aid on hand? A: No, none. I fixed looms for years and had a little bottle of iodine in my tool box and we didn't have first - aid. W.e.' d u s e something to tie our finger up with, if we got cut or hurt or something. Q: Just go on and work? A: But we did it ourselves. There wasn't any use to go to nobody and say anything �20 about it. Q: Why did they feel they needed to keep it wet or humi§l? A: It takes a certain amount of humidity to keep that yarn running. through the slicers and the side. It's run Start to put on the yarn and it's brittle. of course , You have to have a certain amount of humidity to make the work run, but the humidifiers were bad to get out of order and when they did , they just wet the floor, you know. Some of the warps got too wet to run, but all that was changed ofter the remodeling and got air conditiaming and a diffe r ent: } 1umdiifying system. Q : You were saying earlier it was your impres s ion that most of the people who c ame to work in the mills during the early '20 1 s , middle '20' s . were not from this c ounty. They were from farther west like Yancey, Mitchell, or Madison County. A : You see, I lived in the village and I was acquainted with almost everybody. Most of them came from Madison and Heywood. Q: They were farm families? A : Yes. Q: Were they giPen, because they were fam ilies, were they given hiring preference over individuals, single people . You said the mills would more readily hire a family than they would an indiv idual or they felt that he would make a better employee or worker. Or were the people that came in from s a y Madison, were they goven prefer- ence over local people? A : No, they were not . �21 Q: Not really? A: Sometimes a whole family m.ight have been giving a little preference to the houses , I cb n 't know . Q : Because they wouldn't have any house at all? A: But, all you got, all anybody g(j)j; then, they worked fo r it . promoted to a better job, p u had to work for it. Of course, you got You had to convince the man that you were capable of doing it . Q: Do you have any idea why f>eople came in such numbers from farther west to work in the mills? We r e they just tired of farming or couldn't make a living on farming or what was it? A: I just have an idea that it was harder to make a living. Q: Yeah . Did any of them tell you that, say that , was why they came to the mills? A: Not tha t I recall. But you take a man , say he had six children. He and six children went to work and if they m ake twelve dollars a week that made eighty fou r dollars a week . Well, he'd have probably kept ten dollars out of each child's pay. There was a lot that went back and bought farms depending on how large the family was. Q : You mean they would work a couple of years and save up and go back to say Heywood County and buy a farm? A: Yeah . They'd work several years like that . took most of the money that the children made. I'm pretty sure that the parents �22 As long as they stayed at home, the parents just about got all t hat they made. (cough) So, a man with a large family pretty well mopped up. Q: Yeah. How old did a child have to be before they would let it work in the mill then? A: I believe fourteen. Q: Yes. A: TQ.ey did work just small children, but I believe they made the General Assembly pass a bill. They had to be fourteen years old . Q: Yes. A: They had to go get a work card then (c ough) from the ing before the company would hire them. ~hool that they were attend- I think it was fourteen. Q : That would mean tmt couldn't go to school if they were hired? There was no night work, was there? A: No. Q: So, that meant if they went to work at fourteen , they weren't in school? A: They didn't go to school. But they had to get a permit of some kind before they could work . Q: Were there about as many women working at Clinchfield as men? A: Yeah , I think there were . �23 A: See, most of the spinning rooms, most of the spinners or all the spinners were women. A lot of the women worked in the card room . Probably more men worked in the card room than women but in the weave room, I'd say it was pretty well divid ed About as many women as there were men. Q: Did they pay them different? A: No . Q : There was no difference in pay? A: A woman can actually be as good a weaver as a amn can. I've worked with women that was awfully good weavers . Q: What did they have the children doing, say those fourteen to eighteen? A: Learning, mostly to weave . My wife said she went to work at Clinchfield for twenty five cents a week for a size and she, I think, got to where she could run two sizes and made fifty cents a week . I'm no , I'm not certain . Q : Who did just general clean-up work azround the mill? A : Do you mean inside? Q : Yes . A : \Vell,, they had room cleaners and sweepers and they l=lad probably two c olored people that did the mopping that mopped the floors once a week . They didn't get around to it often, because it was a big plac e and I know there was some colored women �24 that used to mop at Clinchfield. Later on, it was only men that did the mopping . After they got an air compressor and what we called blow pipes, they blew all this lint and cotton off the looms and the sweeper swept it up and it was sold for somekind of waste. I don't know what they did ... Q: The lint was? A: Yes . Q: Perry Hicks said when he first came to the mills around 1920, that there was a lot of feeling in this county among people that they d idn't want to go to the mills to work. They'd rather farm or do something else. A: Yes , I was. Were you aware of any of that? People that worked in the mill were actually looked down on. (laugh) were called cotton mill trash. They Now that's a fact , I'm just telling you t he facts. They were actually looked down on by people. Q: In the town? A: Yeah , father was offered a job at Clinchfield and it was a good job , if he'd move into the village. He wouldn't do it. That was before any of us ever went to work. They felt like the people that lived in the village was nothing. Now that's a fact. Q: Why did people feel that way? Was it because they were from outside, they'd come in from other counties or ... A: I really don't know, I must admit. I' ve had friends down through life that was the best people you could ever come by. the mills. They lived in mill villages and worked in �25 Q: When a mill worker went into the town to the store to buy something, they wouldn't refuse to take his mmey? A : No, they wouldn't. (laugh) But you had to have some kind of somebody to recommend you before you got any c redit and if nobody didn 't know you, nobody would give you credit. So, I think it was one reason that so many people c r edited at the company store, because the few grocery stores that were around refused them credit from one week to the next . Q: Yes. What else did the companies do for the workers? with a village, housing, and the company store . at all? They provided them Did they do anything else for them Like . were there mill schools for the children? A: Yeah , they built a school house over there in the village and the company did that on their own I'm su r e . Now, when this building come through the mill I was going to school in a little two-room school house about two mlles over there and it was a ctually closer to Clinchfield mill than it was to our home . These kids that came from the mill village just over-crowded the school for a year or three years until they got a school of their own funds . Q: Did they also hire the teachers or were they... A: No, I guess, they were hired by the state . was put up by the c ompany and they owned it. I'm almost c ertain that the building After they built modern schools at both villages, the company made rooming houses, apartment houses, out of the old ones. Q: Did the company e er build churches ? �26 A: No. Q: Did the mill workers tend to go to one chuch? A: The first church that was built was Clinchfield Methodist Church. Marion Methodist Church was the first one built. Church. Probably East Then they built Clinchfield Methodist Of course , these people did it, and then later on they built the Baptist Church over there and one at East Marion and then several years later they had a Presbyterian Church. owned. N o w it's in the village over there, but it was ne ver company They probably donated the lot to build it on and they would donate the lot or the property for the church to build on. Not that was both places because those churches are on company owned property or what was company owned property. Now I'm sure they donated it. Q: Do you recall any other services, or whate ver, that the company did for the workers? You said there weren't doctors to provide midical ser vice. A: No , we didn't have any doctors or nu r ses. a house and we did't pay any powe r bills. The only thing that they provided was They didn't ha ve anything, but lights and they didn't allow hot plates or no kind of electric appliances, but the power didn't cost you anything. You paid fifteen cents a room for a house a week. Q: F or a week? A: Yeah. They dept the streets up to where you could drive a wagon over them. There were very few cars back then, you know furnaces down at the mill to put on the roads . and they used the cinders from the T hey had a well with a pump for about every four houses, I belie"e, something like that. Probably two on each side of the �27 street used the same pump. Q: Yes . A: Hand pump. Q: So there wasn't running water in the house? A: No. , Q: You pumped it and brought it in . Would they allow you to set you a garden out? A: Yes. Q: In the village? A: Uh. There was a garden spot for about every house. Q: How big were the lost for each house? Was it maybe about a half acre, as much as they ... A: No , they were not. In some of the houses, you know, on the back streets where the houses were built, they were built in a line down and on that ground you could go back as far as you wanted to normally. They owned the land, but people that l ived say fac- ing you on the other side of the street, between two streets had a very small lot . Q: Most people did try to garden though didn't they? A: Yes they did. END OF TAPE #1 SIDE #2 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Howie, Sam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Helms, Dewey E. Interview Date 1/10/1976 Location The location of the interview. Marion, NC Number of pages 27 pages Date digitized 9/18/2014 File size 12.6MB Checksum alphanumeric code a27303eca732de128997d62c1ba80121 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape336_DeweyEHelms_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dewey E. Helms [January 10, 1976] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Howie, Sam Helms, Dewey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource McDowell County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--McDowell County--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--McDowell County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Helms, Dewey Description An account of the resource Dewey Helms, born in 1903, talks about working in McDowell County, North Carolina, in the early twentieth century. He came from a family of farmers and carpenters, and when he was old enough he began working in the furniture factory for eleven cents an hour between school terms. In 1923 he began working at the mill because the pay was better. He said the only other job you could get besides furniture and mill was the railroad, which didn't pay very well either. He eventually began weaving and repairing looms as a career. American Thread Clinchfield Clinchfield Methodist Church Clinchfield mills Cross mills Dewey E Helms Dewey Helms Drexel Furniture Factory East Marion Methodist Church East Marion Mill general stores Greenwod loom plant Marion McDowell County N.C. mill community mill village North Carolina railroad South Carolina Southern Railroad Company weaving weaving mills https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/80c6e96d868d6434c97a40f9fdd09bb7.pdf 6dba4c07388efb0ee777cee6ec3e21a4 PDF Text Text MR . & MRS • ALLEN TOWNSEND (Note. Q: Here the answere are from Mrs. Townsend) What do you first r emember about the Depression? How did you lmow it had starte ? A: Well, food always- got so high . It looked like you didn ' t have enough money to go cwound, I guess , and you just got the notions of things like that . Q. Were you not liVli:ng somewhere w here you could make your own food? Did you have to but it . ? Ai It's been for a few years that now at first we raised our own food and , you . know, we had our own chickens and raised our own meat like that , but then we jus t couldn 1 t do that so we 1 d just have to have money to buy it . to work . I ' ve worked myself to death . Then Allen got unable You know, with young ' uns you just can ' t get out to do. Q: Was there anything besides the high prices that you knew that the Depression was starting? A: Well, I re ot . It was just everything, you lmow , seemed different and a shortage of everything . Q: What were sane of the things that you, that were hard to get, find , or buy? A: Well , I just don •t lmow. Se emed like that we didn 1 t have much of anything or couldn ' t get much of anything or something . Back then there just wasn ' t much work for anybody to do and we lived in Ashe County at that time . awfully sick just coul 1 t d she had double pneumonia . .. d1y g t to the doctor . My mother was She was going to die and , you lmow, At that time it was hard . daddy worked , on a school .gym at Fleet wood and he had to walk . He worked , It ' s four miles �2 there and our miles back . o ' clock in the mornin ~o That's ei t Ue get there in time . got back and he was always so give out . a and he had to leave at four It was alw after dark when he We young ' µns woul ork in the crops So , we cut wood ta make hea:b around there at hane and we had to cut firewood o and bad to carry our own water, for a right smart ways . They couldn ' t hardly make enough to buy soap and Mama would make ho.memade soap ; make it in a big kettle to wash our clothes with . Q: What kind of crops did you raise? A: W ell, we raised about everything that they could raise . We raised potatoes , corn, cabbage, and we'd make corn bread out of the corn that we raised and we ' d make what you call himiney out of it and then we canned a lot of stuff . we dried apples . Then I can remember Mama drying a pumpkin, cutting it in rings and hanging it on sticks over the fireplace to dry. Q: What did she do with them . A: Take it and cook it . Make pumpkin pies for us to eat and dry apples and make dried apple pies . Q. So , did you have enough to eat then at this t A: W ell, we had plenty to eat, I reckon, and the way we managed it , you know, 'l had to do the same thing . Q. Did you have to buy anything? Was there anything that you had to buy'l Well, there were a lot of people that raised wheat that made their own flour , but we ddidn ' t raise any wheat, so we had to buy our own flour , you know, and sugar . The salt and stuff, fix something to eat and they used to be something like chicory that people would raise to be a plant . It would grow in great long roots �3 and they called it chicory and people would dry that and grind i t up and make coffee, chicory coffee . They call it coffee, but it really wasn ' t . They ' d take it and percolate, or boil it in a pot like they did all their c offee . Bout everybody in our neighborhood would raise that and make their own coffee . There would be a lot of young people now that never heard tell of that . They wouldn ' t know what I 1d be talking about and you might not . Q: No , I never heard of it . fas the flour and the sugar and all that hard to find during the Depression? A: Yes , it was . Q: Where did you get the money or how dfri you get it? A: Well, a lot of times we gathered herbs . How did you buy it? Dried herbs like cherry bark and we 1d pull big wood leaves and skin bi g ood bar • thing else to do he would go out in t. woods and mountains , you know, and cut When Daddy couldn ' t get any- the cherry poles and those big wood poles and the closes t one would bring them home and he ' d chop them up into firewood lengths and we ' d burn them , skin them in the house of the night . dry that . Then burn the wood part of the day and you ' d have to Some times it would take about a week, you know, to dry the bark and the leave • Q. What did urou do with it? A: There was a lot of sang in the mountains . called it . I reckon it still grows . They called it ginseng is what they I haven ' t seen any in a long time , but we were always •••• Now there was something you gathered mullen and when it began to get dry it would stick you up . bath . Q: What was it? You just had to change your clothe s and take a �4 A: I don't know . It was a little old fuzz or something, you know, and it would get on you and just itch you to death . Q: Was there anything that you can think of that was good about the Depression? A: No , I think that everything was bad . Q: Well, what was the worst thing about it? A: Well, in clothes and food you just didn't have the money to buy it with and you really couldn 1 t get it because it ;just wasn't there . Q: Well , did you or your mother make, your own clothes? A: Mama went and made our own clothes and she didn ' t even have a sewing mach- ine. She had to sew with her fingers, or maybe there would be a neighbor some- where around that would have a sewing machine that didn 1t mind, but usually people just didn ' t have time for a neighbor to come in, sit down , and stay all day and sew . So , she would sew with her fingers and make our clothes and they would make long dresses that really took more . so hard . I guess that was the reason times were It took more to make the clothes because the dresses were way down to your feet, you know, had big collars to them . It really took a lot of material to make clothes , now you can take a little bit just so your legs are had in it. Q: Where did you get the cloth? A: Well, thake and but it in have now . the town, city. They didn't have cloth like they What you could get, it was awfully hard to iron . then, you lmow. I wonder what we did make it out of . varieties of material, you know, like they have now . I didn 1 t notice it They didn't have different A lot of people that raised sheep would make their own wool, you know , to knit socks and sweaters and things. Q : What do you think caused the Depression? �s A: Well, I just. don ' t know . Q: Did you hear any people around blaming any certain people for the Depression1 Ai No , I don ' t remember if they did . He was the Republican pres dent . A lot of people blamed Hoover, you know . A lot of pe9ple blamed him, because I heard them say that he had a lot of grain thrown in the ocean that the poor people could have usedo It would have made it more plenti'ful, you know , wheat , in the community. Q: They said he threw grain in the ocean? A: Instead of giving it out they did that , you know, to make the prices go up . Q: Did they, was that true or was the just what the people used to tell? A: W ell, now ! don ' t know if it was true , but that is what they all said . They said what made the meat prices go up , they killed a lot of the animals when they were little . They didn ' t have feed to feed them. I think in something like that, if they managed it right, try to help everybody get a start to have sanething, because it ain ' t everybody that is poor because they want to be . Qa So , did the local, what were the local at titudes towards the leaders of the government? A: W ell, I just don!.t remember much about them then , because we always lived back from anybody else and didn ' t have much . Then young ' uns didn ' t pay any attention to what they. . . _-_ _ • Q: How were the farmers, what was their situation during the Depression? Do you thinlc they felt any differently than the people who didn ' t farm? A: Yes , because if they that farmed really fared better because they didn ' t have to buy, you know, all that stuff o It really made a difference all the way around . �6 Give the farmer some of his money back and give the people , you lmow, something to eat that they woul dn ' t have had . Q: Did you ever sell any of your crops other than the herbs that you collected? A. No , not too many, because we were always renters , had the farm on the shares and usually our part, it would take it, for us to eat . was the farm that you were on? Q : How big A: Well , it would just be small farms that we would be on . Sometimes it would be about fi'fteen acres of corn , and then maybe five acres of potatoes , or something like that . Well , by the time the owner of the land would get his share out of i t , we wouldn ' t have too much to sell. We usually always had same potatoes and beans , to sell . Q: How did you think the tenant system worked? A: W ell, you could rent a place and you ' d get house rent . of the stuff, they ' d give you half of what you made . If you furnished half If you couldn't affarEl to pay for farming equipment, they'd pay for it and you could just end it . That's a preetty bad thing, because you had to work a whole lot to make all that . would taice all your time to aake it . It Then , however , it was havested and divided you didn ' t get much by getting a tmird of it . So , if ycu were a big family, you'd have to be careful to make it go around , you know , to do until it was raised again . thl~ Q: Were there very many people doing A: Yes , there were a lot of people doing that . during the Depression? SeliU!lea to me like that there just weren ' t too many people that did own their places . all thouMt was wealthy. It would be sanebody that we Maybe there would be two or three tenants on one farm . The one that did the renting, that owned it, he really come out pretty good , having �7 several different people . Q: Did he sell crops? A: Yes , he would sell. Q: Did he sell maybe part of the CI'9PS that you harvested really? A: Yes , and take it off, maybe to the cities , the town . were just small and maybe one or two stores . could take . Back then the to~ms They ' d but everything that you Then the people that didn 't have it, would come and but it fDom them o Q: .Ih you remember any of the work proje cts that were started? A: Yes , I can renember that but not until I grew up and got married . I had t wo twin brothers so everything was gettin pretty well organized when they got up , you know , old enough to work . Do you remember any of the things that these people on projects did? A: I don ' t . Q: Were there any other efforts that were made to help recover from the Depression? A: I think that what came out when there wasn ' t anything mcuh . Now what was thi s Democratic President after Hoover? What was his name? Q: Roosevel.t ? A: Now it seemed to me like whenever he got in, things began to change . ~an to build these buildings for schools . to good . They be- That gave people jobs but it didn ' t pay They ept on until ••• I think they just changed the nam .of it about the same time . That was baxk when they started it , that building the gymnasiums and bigger schools , different room. Now, back when I went to school , it was just a one room school building arJI they went from the first grade to seventh . �8 O .: W your father on one-. of the work programs? as A: Yes, that was where he had to work to walk eight miles a day. miles there and four miles back . He had to leave at four o 1 clock and cane in at I don ' t know what time it was . dark . It was four He was so far away, he had to take a light of the morning to see how to go and we live in Ashe C omty and that was down at Fleetwood, you know, where tmy built . Q: What was the nome of it where they worked? A: It wasn't W . A. .P husban used to e They had that going on when I was grown and married . My r k on i • ? A t Yes , when me and him were married and then he quit after we got married . Q: Was the Depression about over by then? A: rle~ , yes, pretty much, because everything got to working around until there was a right smart of work going on and it has been ever since . Q: ·11e11, what kind of work did you do , Mr. 'l!ownsend? A: On thew . ed buil a A. He worke hospital ~. on it some clearing the roads, you know, and he help- That was up there in town, well, she don ' t know where it is but they had the old one . �9 because there were just two brothers . They was twins so everything was getting pretty well organized when they got up , you know , old enough to work . Do you remember any of the, the t hings that these proje ts, any of the work that was done on them, wh t they did? A: Q: No, I don't. fore there any other efforts that were made to help recover from the A: ression? I think that what came out when there wasn ' t anything much , ••• ow what was this Democratic President after H oover? Q: As Roosevelt. T Jhat was his name? l oosevelt? ow it seemed to me like whenever he got in , things began to change , because they began to build, these buildings for the schools, and different schools · 1hat gave the pe ople that didn ' t have anything much to do or to live on, it give them a job, but it didn 't pay too good at the time being, 1 hey kept on until. •• I think they just changed the name of it about the same thing is going on now only they raised it up , and gave it different names • 11 t was back when they started it, th t building the gymnasiums and bigger schools , different rooms . Now, back when I went to school , it was just a one room school building and they went from the f irst grade t o seventh. Q: las your father on one of the work programs ? A: Y eah, that was where he had to work or walk eight mi les a day, I.k- �10 was four miles there and four miles back . Had t o leave at four o ' clock arrl cme in at dark j I don ' t know what tbne it was , He was so far away, he had to take a light , of the morning to see how to go and we lived in Ashe County and that was down at Fleetw ood, you know , where they built. Q: lhat was the name of it where they worked? A: Oh . Q: . • p • A•? No , wasn't ·•• P . and married . A., because they had that going on when I was grown y husband used to work on it . He did? Yeah , when me and him ~as married and then he quit after we got married . at year did you all get marrie ? '38 . Q: W the Depression about over by then? as vell , yes , pretty much , because everything got to working around till there was a right smart of work a going on and it has been ever since . Q: · ell what kind of work did you do , M . Townsend? r It was ••• Q: On the work program? A: On the 1• . P . A. he worked on it some clearing the roads , you know 1 H.e built , helped build, you worked on a hospital, , , what ever hes pi tal , the old one , you know, where the old hospital was? That was , up there in town , well , she don ' t know where it is at , but they had the old one . �1Tt. 11 I (Jc. He helped work on it and some of them back ••• ( ote: r . Townsend and Jane Efird have been carrying on a short indecipherable conversation . Q: It will be picked up here . ) rlhy don 1 t you tell, talk into there and tell us about working on the • P. A., what you remember? (Laughter) Q:: ow , you just talk , go ahead and just tell us then . ou said you worked on the roads , what di d you have to do? A: ell, we fixe d the roads , fiXed the roads down in places , places , for people to get in and out . 0 fferent W hauled dirt and rocks and we e fiXed the places so people could get in and out. Trim the roads , keep the road , trim the road of bushes and things like that, so people could, roads would be open . Q: . . A: Did you work on that before you were married or after? Yeah , I worked before I married • ( rs . ·"Townsend) You just worked before , when we was married and quit right after . Q: at did you do at the hospital, what did you say you helped build that? I hauled cement and brick and mortar blocks , I mean cinder blocks . (Jane Efird speakfng to Janice Young) during the Depression (} rs . Townsend) he could If they weren 1 t married, tell something about it . If you could get him to talk till he'd understand, he don't seem to remember much. Q: (Jane Efird speaking to Janice Y oung) aybe if you could let �12 her ask him . ( Janice speaking to Mrs. Tmmsend) You could ask him sane questions that yav. know he would know about . A: (l rs . Townsend speaking to school house at A: Q: A: You helped build that alle Crucis didn't you? (Mr . Townsend) eah . • P. A. in that? (M . Townsend ) rs ( r . Townsend) Q: • Townsend) Yeah , the •T. P . A. Y , the eah • P . ~A . built it. Before you got married , where you living on the farm or · with your parents? W ell, we just had a garden , that' s a ll . Q: ~ as it hard to get food then? I o, it wasn't so hard . I just staye d hane an (lielpe ) my folks , my daddy and mammy and my brother was all there were of us , so me and him just stayed there and helpeJ them , looked after them . Q: A : W hat di d your father do f or a living? Tell , he used to work on t he railroads till after he got disabled till he couldn 't do anything , - couldn't work . He used to carry the mail, too , didn ' t he? used to carry the mail. He kindly ••• ( rs . Townsend) (M . Townsend) r Yeah , he He carried the mail for several years and he used to work on the railroad tracks . Q: What did he do ? Y mean on the railroads? ou Q: A: \ Yeah . He ftel{)id raise til es , I mean cross ties and things like that . �13 Q: Bid you have enough money during the Depression? A: Q: ell , we kindly made out . \ ere there any things that were hard to get that you needed? A: ell, groceries and things like that weren't as high as they are now . There was more and seemed like they were cheaper back then than there was now . Oh , we did raise mostly our own stuff from the garden and things like , we always had corn, corn and potatoes and stuff like that . Always had plenty of app les and things like that to live on. · as there anything that you needed that you had to buy? ell , we bought some stuff that we needed such as flour , and stuff like that at the store that we needed . Q: A: ere did the money come from to buy the stuff that you needed ? ell, that was when I was working for that r. P . A. business and then my mother she drew a check every month . Q: A: t kind of check? County check , they give her a county check , her and my da dy, a county check that way every month . Q: That was during the Depression? A: Y . eah Q: What did they give it for? A: They all got it and, they all got rations and things like that with it . It was kind of what they called the 01 Age Pension . I think he is mixed up, th t was just before they died . (M . Townsend) rs �14 Q: A: How did you get started on the • P . A. ? ell, I just got out there and signed up f or it to give me a job, something, a job t o work , so I signed up . I worked up there , I worked up there the whole time before I was married . Q : ~as it hard work? · ell , some days it was pre tty hard and some days it wasn ' t . I 'blilt fires whenever it was col d weather , whenever it was cold why again they built , kept fires going, to keep warm and everything around. The bossman always told me , give me the job always keeping fires and things like that . Q: How much did you get paid ? A: I couldn't tell you now , how much, it has been •• • Q: as it enough? A: Huh? Q: W what you got paid, was it enough to buy the tllings you needed? as O yeah , we ma e out, I made out alright . h, Again , I'd get stuff on credit at the store and then I would soon pay up. Q: as +,he pay enough f or people t o live on or not? A: W ell, a lot of those ot her peopl e they had rad i os or anything, but they always paid out, took and got groceries and stuff like that with that . Q: A: D d anybody else in y CfUI' fami l y work on any of those proj ects? i o, nobodyA but me worked on i t . �15 Q: as it hard to , to get on with work programs ? A: o, it wasn ' t so hard to get on and I signed up , up here at Boone . It wasn't so hard to ge t on . Q: A: Q: D d people make fun of the people who worked on work projects? i o, they never di d, nobody never di say anything about it . W ell, were a lot of people around in your neighborhood workin g on the project? A: Y , there was a lot of people around over there where I lived eah that worked on it . (EN OF PA_T III ) �16 TAPE .u2 SIDE B PA. T IV Q: 1 1ell, like over in, I was reading a book that said over in Kentucky, people that worked in a coal mine ••• A: Uh, huh ••• Q: They had it real bad, couldn't get money, couldn't ge t food . d you all know people like that? A: No . e never di d have ••• (· rs . Tmms en ) M ost of the people were , th at would work , a few people around that wouldn't work , no m tter what kinds of a good job they had to help them out and they have it pretty rough. I 'm a having it ri ght now . Just like (laughter) A it h s been a couple of nd years that I ain ' t been able to work . The young 'uns helps me out some . (M . Townsend ) A while back I used to work in the furniture shop r down in H ibriten . I was down there f or a year or two . Y eah, Allen did work in Lenoir at Hibriten some back in ( rs . Townsend) ' 43, he worked at H ibriten. ( r . Townsend) ibriten and at G reer's Herb I worked down there at H ouse, where they had herbs and things like that you know . H I worked both places down there . Q: That was after you got married that you were working down there? (Mrs . Townsend ) Uh, huh , because what makes me remember it, my little girl was born while he was working down there and he ha to stay a week at a time. �17 Q: Oh, you didn't live down there? (M . Townsend) rs o, we lived up here and he ' d go down there on the mail of the first of the week and then he ' d come back the next weekend . (He ) Stay a week at the time and I went to my sister's . They lived over in town and I stayed when my little girl was born. Q: D you ever hear of anybody making moonshine during the id pression to pay for things ? Io , I didn't, but I want to tell you sanething my da dy- in-law, A llen's father , said that his mo her , the family that she stayed with that raised her , that they made it and that was on up above where they lived , and Mr . Townsend said that was why he married randmaw . It was to get her out of the furnace , you know, she was hel ping them make ••• Q: M oonshine ? : Q: A: 0: Yeah . D you remember, during the Depression, the banks closing? o o, I don't remember too much about that . How were businesses affected? D they lose trade ? id ell , I just can ' t tell you , ju t didn't know much about it , you see , he ' s fifteen years older than I am . Q: Did a lot of people move out of the mountains during the Depression looking f or work? Y , they did . es Q : There was a lot of people left, trying t o find work . D they come back or what happened to them? id �18 A: ell , I don 't know , some of them after so long a time , would come back , but they waited, I reckon , till sanething, better and , up here where it opened up . eems like ot a little ~it took me a long time to remember , I mean, since now , seems like that I just can't remember back too far or something . I mean, how things went or , about business . Q: D you remember any women working on any of the Federal ·brk o Programs? A: The first that I remember about working, I don ' t remember wh~t women kind it was . It was at ; ~st Jefferson and , it was , now, I ' ve knmri women th t , to be work in the stores , with merchandi se . They went and shipped an awful lot of cattle over there at · rest Jefferson and I don ' t kno 1 where from, I guess it was from everywhere and they had a stockyard over there and they would kill them and fix them, give them out, to the people that needed them, poor people that. and it was a job for , some of the women, to help do To help to give it out or fix it up , to the ones that needed it, it give them a job, like people would . Q: A: Q: A: That was during the D epression? eah . And it was free? eah, it was free , to the main people that didn 't have nothing at all . �19 Q: · ere there a lot of people like that around? A: \· ell , there were several big families , maybe where the families , the mother wasn't able to work , well there wasn't work then for .the women, it's the first I knew women working except , maybe once in a while , in st~res or something or school teacher . they had great big crowds an Q: But - where the man, ju t couldn't provi de for them . •ell, di d you know people like your father who didn 't want to take things free? There was a lot of people that just wouldn't want to take things like that . Q: A: Thy? ell, I don' t lmow , I guess that made them feel a little bit help- less or something . Q: ell, were the schools affected by the epression? ell , back then they didn't have any lunch rooms as I can remember, anything to offer them at school, they ha d to take their own lunch, those that didn't live close enou gh , that they could to eat . And rtm back in a few minutes so , about something like that I don't remember , the parents had to buy the books , and the paper and everything that the child used, see they had to , just buy that and the going to school, it didn't cost them anything but, the books and the paper , the pencils , stuff like th8t , the parents had to pay for it . Q: ~ell, do you lmo they didn't : anybody that had to quit because of that , because ve enough money? •Jell, they couldn't quit . They wouldn't allow them to quit . �20 If they didn 't have it and c ldn't afford it now I guess it was maybe scmeway from the school , to give them paper to do their homework on . But, it seemed like they didn 't do as much , as , like they do now . '·Tere the churches affected in any my? A: No, I don't think that they was . i-. ell, what were , I guess you had people talking about it , what were their i deas or attitudes like durine the Depression, were they worried about it? es , about everybody was woITied, afnaid that they cruldn 't get what they needed, they were going to have to do without, things that they needed and a lot of them did do without a whole lot and I guess about everybody did to a certain extent. Q: Di they feel like maybe it wasn't going to en ? W ere they afraid that it was going to keep on like th t? r ell, I don't know , but I imagine that they do because , now things that happened, we feel like it .' s going an forever . Q: How did they get out of the Depress ion , how did the co1IDtry get out of the ression? ·Jell , I reckon everybody must have got together , and worked in, something to give everybody scmething to do . Q: i at, how did you know it was over, how did you know that the Depression had ended? A: · ell , I guess when everything got better till people could make it alright . �21 Q: A: o you think that the work programs arrl the federal programs helped? Y , that helped . es f hey gave jobs , but what else do you think helped Q: them out? A: : ell, I don't know , I guess it gave people more ideals , till they could, could go on and do more , to keep more going , more to do and causing to be more, ' cause see I reckon it takes talents and knowledge , to keep it up an the more that they try to do, the more you know how to open up , s omething else and I ess , that's the way everything got started and to make people feel better anyway and eally did better . It's been for a few years , seemed like everybody's been doing pretty good , but they have to wo k . Q: D d you see any l asting effects caus ed by the Depression? i o. Q: '"ell, do you think , how would you canpare the ~ression of the 'JO's to the way things are today? A: ell , there's been a lot of difference , but there's a lot of similance (similarity). H ere about a year ago , when they began to close down sane shops and things like that , that reminded me , what it used to be way back yonder , they wasn ' t nothing open, to do . Q: at about family life? Has it been, could you compare the way it is now as to how it was A: uring the Depres ion? o, I think life goes on pretty well the same . �22 Q : at about prices ? A: , ell , there's a difference in prices . Q: There are di fferences ? . Yeah, there are , there 's a lot of differences , well, everything i s higher n than it was back then, but you see , if the prices are ~ low and you don ' t get pay an money, ah , they ain't much difference in whether you c make a lot more and the prices are high, than it i s when you don 1 t get anythin anything . 0 and you don 1 t have to pay much for So, it's just as hard, back then when prices were low , you didn ' t have anything to buy it with , you couldn ' t get any more than enough , it's just like it is now , it's just hard life , I reckon , ' just you get a whol e lot of money, you have to pay a whole lot and if you don ' t get much money, well, now if you ain ' t got much money you have to pay, but then you didn t hav. . to . Q: Is there anything else you ' d like to tell about the D epression, anything you remember? · ell, there ain ' t nothing really that I can remember . Q: fuat about you M . Townsend , i s there anything you' d like to add ? r A: I don ' t know of anything. Q: 0. • , any more questions ? ( END OF APE) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Townsend, Mrs. & Mr. Allen Interview Date 9/25/1975 Number of pages 22 pages Date digitized 9/18/2014 File size 10.2MB Checksum alphanumeric code c08dbee4015362a0037fdd0be79ab830 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape335_Mrs&MrAllenTownsend_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mrs. & Mr. Allen Townsend [September 25, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Townsend, Mrs. & Mr. Allen Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Mountain life--North Carolina--Ashe County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Depression--1929--North Carolina--Ashe County Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Townsend, Allen Townsend, Allen, Mrs. Description An account of the resource Mr. and Mrs. Townsend talk about the Depression and how it affected their families. He explains: "It was just everything, you know, seemed different and a shortage of everything." Farmers were the ones who fared the best, because they didn't have to buy in order to support themselves. His family worked on a farm during the Depression, but they didn't own the farm. Most people in Ashe County, because they "lived so far back from everybody else" didn't know much about the political situation, or why the Depression was happening. He remembers that when Roosevelt things changed, and schools started to be built in his area. His father was assigned to a work program and had to walk eight miles a day to get to work. Allen Townsend Ashe County crops dried herbs farming Federal Work Programs Fleetwood Franklin Roosevelt ginseng Great Depression Greer's Herb House Herbert Hoover herbs Hibriten Jane Efrird railroad work projects Works Progress Administration WPA https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ae6877441651ed9a5e4da568d623d7c7.pdf 37b00e9f13ba8fb823d7a725e5c150fb PDF Text Text LARRY CAMPBELL INTERVIEW #2 Tape 2 Side A This is an :interview with Larry Campbell in his home. The :interview is made by Brenda Hicks with the Oral History Project at Appalachian State University. Q: Excuse me. A: This fell ow, he's a staunch, active man with a fundamentalist religion . took a little trip and he happened to go on weekends . know, that place is Scrlom and Gomorah." wife was turned to sal~ Fontana Village, he'd wipe 'em out. 11 He told me, he said, "Y:m He said, you know, said, "Whc.n Lot's God said if he could find just one person down there that was righteous he wouldn't destroy it. righteous person. He I said, 11 Well, boy if he 'd take a good look at 'Cause he said, "I know Di.ere wasn't one "What do you mean? 11 He said, "Well, they were dancin' and singin' and pickin' guitars and playing fiddl es and drinking beer," and, you know, really, probably doing less harm to their fellow man, and probably less harm to the atmosphere and less harm to God's earth than this guy did with his growly ol' smokey car dri ving over there and back and passing judgement on everybody. make a quick buck. there's the contrast . Because this fellow would develop anything if he'd He's got plenty of bucks ... quick bucks. But now .... see The real paradox of it is, and mountain culture and mountain religi©Dl is full of this, paradoxes, is that your finest and purest form of mountain music which is a descendant of your Scottish bagpipe tradition . Q: Yeah, you can hear it .... �2 A: In New England you have your Irish type of music. Brothers Four, Kingston Trio, that's an Irish rhythm. Irish we call it. like it. It's a New England It's good music and it's cultural and it's pure, but I don't I'm not an Irishman, I 'm not a Scotsman. grass it's got your Scottish blend in it. here. Pete Seagar, The If you listen to your blue- You can hear it. I've got reams of it I play it and I sing it and I buy it and listen to it, be caas e it's a part of the southern Appalachian culture that I'm a part of. I think it's the purest art form there is around today and then a lot of people who have commercialized it and changed it a little and taken advantage of it, but it's still good. in your (Brush Arbor) camp meeting days. rt started This is where larger numbers of people began to hear and appreciate their music as it had developed, when it, from the time it first came into the mountains ..... there's time . . .. Q: Was it existing before as the original ballads themselves, because the melodies are often taken to make gospel? A: Well, a lot of them were. and Germany. marches and he fights . dance. do it . Your Scotsman, he drinks, sings, and he dances and he He's just that way. He's more of a primitive beast A Scotsman loves to fight and he loves to sing and he loves to An Englishman had rather sit. on his can and let, and watch the Scotsman He's just that way. ain music in there. Larger numbers of people started hearing your mount- Bruoh Arbor camp meetings and revivals than begins to start. Q: They came from England Mostly from England and northern Great Britain, and Scotland. Your Englishman drinks. or something. A lot of them were. Do you use the instruments as part of the ...... ? �3 A: Yeah whatsoever yeah, they would sing. They would sing a lot with no because they had none. You know, just have a tune (hyster) get up and ahant a S-lf)ng and it would usually be done antiphonally. your ancient Hebrew tradition. would sing a line. instruments Very much like The leade r would sing a line, the congregation Tune hyster would say the next line or the next ... and a lot of our beautiful old gospel ballads got started this way. weren't bad, but t hen others had rotten theology on them. Some of them They sang of the worldly, just this bloody, no good kind of thinking, you know, it just puts God and Man down at the same time. And it presumes to make God a beast and man just a snh·elling idiot. music began, you know. But this is where you're real bluegrass mountain string Somebody would come along and they'd say, "Hey, Uncle Joe's got a fiddle in the wagon. 11 So, they found out by George, it would be a little livilier and if Uncle Joe would lead the music, keep us on pitch with his fiddle. Or somebody would say, 11 Well, Uncle Dave's got his banjo, or his quitar." And they'd, this was very well approved. But then as times come by and I've watched people go through this whole thing within a lifetime. of Baptist ministers in this county (coughs). Excuse me. We have a couple That were at one tinre tremendous musicians, but they got saved and quit. Q: Well, I've experienced that before. There were, at Union Grove. A: I've seen 'em go thr:ough it within a lifetime not just within a couple of generations, as history goes by, but within one person's life. this association of music, secular music. They would begin to draw Fiddles and guitars and banjos with hard drinking, card playing, and loose women, and partying. Partying was bad, it's bad news. That's why this fella reacted so badly to the folk dances they have �4 every Friday and Saturday night at the big lodge at Fontana Village, NC. love to have time to go over. And I'd In fact, I've been there years ago. Q: They're just big, big, big mass s q uare dancing. A: Just big barn dance. dance. And somebody's gonna get drunk. Somebody's gonna You know somebody's gonna use a little foul language occassionally. If guys are still as red-blooded as they were when I was seventeen to twenty-one, they're gonna fist-fight once in a while. But if anybody there has any talent at all, there's going to be som e tremendous music and some tremendous fellowship and the art of dancing and performing and being together with a low degree of anxiety and hostility which people today, ah.. • .•.... Q: Yeah. A: That's going to take place. People are better for it. I' ve seen this happen. A pe rs·on begins to associate card playing.. hard drinking, loose women with picking and singing. They wouldn't get caught dead in a place where this occurs. I get it. Even some people among the Lutheran congregation that I serve, get a little upset when they hear that I'm again playing with a bluegrass . band. Look around you, you'll see that I've played a few . Q: Yeah. A: Still do. occasionally. If I had the opportunity right now, I'd hit the road again . I'd play every opportunity I could because I like it. that I have ..•. I can do. Q: Yeah. It's creative and it's an art form Besides there· 1 s money in it once in a while. (Laughter) �5 A: But ah ..... Q: But it's fun. I mean it draws you. A: Eventually ... Sure it's fun. It's a gift that God gives us you know that we can, that we can maybe make harmonious sounds that inspire or soothe or challenge or anything. Or tell a tale. Our best history, always our best histony since mankind has learned to put anything down, has still been our oral history. legends and in our music. Most of that is our Most of our good legends were music first. You know, somebody would hear a ballad and they'd say, "Grandpa what does that song mean? He says, "Well, I'll tell you her.e's what my grandpa told me. c omes first. 11 So, you see the music Man, you take man's music away from him and he'll die. what's happened to a lot of people emotionally and spiritually. areas has taken man's music away from him. A social enunch. 11 This is exactly The church, in some They just made a eunuch out of him. He's no good to anybody. Q: This, well, how does he, what is the Lutheran emotionalisni all about? We 've been talking about fundamentalism? A: Okay. Q: . • . • . • . A: emoti~nal conflict. Lutheran emotions, usually, I don't know how to put it . when you pep up their servLce too much. Lutherans get emotional Their worship service. Lutherans get emotion al when the preaching is ·less educational and more emotional. They don't like, they want their worship to be a form of learning and growing experience for 'em. Now this is a painful experience. Growing is p a inful. I think Paul said it, you know, he told his one group of his Christians one time he said, "It's time to stop eating milksop and start seting steak. 11 He said , "You've got some teeth now; grow up. 11 �6 "Eat some solid food. " So he gave it to them. in Christian growth. This has happened day after day You run into problems when you try to get people to grow. Most of the time they do grow. They they appreciate the experience of being helped to grow by the pastor or the preacher. body else in the mountains do. They don't like change any more than any- If I change things, I have to be very subtle about it and I can't do it suddenly or they get emotional. the evangelical point of view is so exciting. of all things. All good things at least. Their theology is emotional in that You know, that God is the prime mover God loved us first . That we don't have to make a decision for Christ, he decided he loved us . He came for us; we didn't send for him. We'd have never been able to do it. We don't particularly have a lot of emotionism in our worship or in our everyday practice . Lutherans love music. They love strings in the church as well as they love fifty thousand dollar pipe organs. They love children singing . They love it when I play my guitar and sing. it very often 'cause I have a very expensive guitar and a bad knee . I'll fall down and break it. I don't do I'm always afraid The one thing that they detest is a family reunion. have those in the summer or at homecoming. We Someone who is no longer a member of our church comes back for homecoming to bring with them their gospel group frorn their church. songs for us . in those songs . They get up in the afternoon after dinner and sing some gospel Most of my people get DP and walk out. I feel like they have grown a lot . theologically speaking mountain gospel songs. a few now and then. They can 't abide the theology Now there are some good solid I try to collect those and I try to sing I don't know too many of them well enough to perrorm them but when I have one and know it and I can get the words to it. where it came from heard it first. I begin to try to find out who wrote it, who performed it professionally, and where I Try to figure out, trace it back because I want to know who had an �7 evangelical theology to write a song that was not a failure oriented or other worldly oriented with this division of soul and body that confuses people so much. you know there is no such, God redeemed the whole man. he redeemd us now. Because This is what he said and A redeemed person is one who can live in the world and not be affected or not be completely ruled by the world and can address himself to the wrongs in the world and say, "In the name of God this has to stop." You know, if we'-re speaking for Christ, just as He cleaned out the temple. that were unpopular but He said He did a lot of other things "Things have to change, I am here." We have to continue to say, "He is here, this has to change." You know these people have to not be hurt anymore, not be kicked around anymore. This system is wrong. This land must stop being abused. We ' ve got to get into politics and change it . Q: I'd love to hear some stories from the church. Anything that comes to mind that illustrates a bit of what you were singing. A: Well, I thought maybe a good illustration is the road that we built from 105 up to the church. There was a road and it's on the state maps . For seven or eight years we tried to get tire state to fix it, and I understand before I came they tried for three years to try to get the state to improve that road . ... Q: Is that the Clark's Creek Road? A: Clark's Creek Road . It was a wagon road. A big path. portant years ago because this highway hadn't been here. ed , winding road that was eventually paved. tried again to get it fixed . by the authorities. It didn 't seem to be im- It was just a narrow, crook- In the fifties this road was built and they They were just ignored. They were just put on extension �8 Q: This is the church itself that was trying to do this? A: Yes . Well, the church was ramrodding a neighorhood effort to get it done . They didn 't particularly want to help create an advantage for a Lutheran church, the Baptists didn't and this is a Baptist neighborhood. E v en though that church had refused to die for a hundred and twenty years . So I tried after I came and I got no results. I drove to Raliegh on numerous occasions, and had audiences with the highway, chairman of the highway commission. I went to Wilkesboro and talked to division engineers, divisions eommissioners and all that. discourteously in some cases . of names. I was writing letters. I had petitions with hundreds I would get other people to write letters, people pretty high up who shared our point of view. them. I was treated just, well maybe a little more Nothing happened . So, I warned them, the seventh year I warned I said, "Next year there will be a road built. You people build for these peojxie up here . " About eighteen families just on top of the mountain and all together fifty-t\'\O families depended on it. mail needed to cross there. The It's going all the way around and up the mountain and backtracking for miles and miles . across that way. Plus the church, and not just my church . The mail needed to go, school bus e s needed to go They were doing like the mail, going all the way around the mountain coming up the other side and backtracking. Very dangerous the north side, instead of using the south side where the sun shines because the snow wouldn't be melting. The r e were two churches that needed to depend on it . N ot just mine. A Seventh Day Ad- ventist Church and a small Baptist Church. A lot of people needed to get in and out to the doctor. A lot of young men who would do better and who are getting discouraged and getting ready to sell their propert y and move ou~ which is the name of the game . �9 They would rather do that than stay and try to find employment here because they'd miss work three or four days a week in the winter time. They couldn' t get out until noon and then maybe had to walk bake in becuase they just couldn't get a car to go up there. So, I said, "Yot.U ll build it or I'll build it. of the next year, we still hadn't heard anything. We'll build it." So, in February During that month I had a funeral. The funeral was for an old man who was very popular, Yery well loved and had many kin folks. We had two hundred cars stuck on both sides of that mountain up to the bumpers. We called the state to get a truck load of gravel or two and a motorgrader in there to push the mud and sand and some left over snow drifts kind of off the road . Right after that came a quick thaw. It was frozen and everything was fine. came a quick thaw the day of the funeral. The motor grader got stuck. a bulldozer after that and the bulldozer got stuck. There They sent Then two dump trucks. Well, I had four-wheel drive with chains on all four wheels and I knew where the rocks were so I stayed on the rocks and out of the mud and managed to get up there. We had the funeral with a lot of people who, people with heart trouble having to walk a quarter of a mile with mud up to their knees just tramping through the slop. and it started freezing. Well, all those deep ruts that we ' d cut that day froze in the road and it was just an impossible winter . meeting in the church. Then it turned cold In Februa ry, we called a big community Most of the congregation was there, a large nunber of people who were not members , including a couple of influential people from the other denominations who didn't even live in the community but had a little bit of clout with some politicians, heard that we had called this meeting to organize a private, non-profit corporation to raise funds to build that hay too, politically. road~ They wanted in on it. fir'st said to go ahead. Now, these guys wanted to make a little So, the way it came about was the state Well, I proved that it was a state road for it was on the map. �10 When I did they said, "You can't touch it or we'll sue you." I said you mean that you'd like to get us in an open courtroom, an open public court, and sue a group of poor, low-income, mountain people for building a road with private money, their own money, that is a state road that you'd refused to fix for us. I said if there's enough emotion and enough people to fix it, then there must be a justification for you to fix it. These people have paid taxes for three generations and you won't do anything for them. they had to go back and have their little caucus to find out what to do about that. cause they had threatened one and I had called their biuff. Well, Be- In the meantime, I'd tried to communicate with the govenor all winter and he refused to communicate. Q: What year was this? A: It was seventy, sixty-nine or weventy. Somebody had told him that I was trying to pull some kind of a little shinanigan to make a hero of myself and make some money, or maybe get into politics and I needed to have an issue. politics. people. I didn't need an issue. Well, I had already been in Everybody... I had been writing letters to a lot of An old politician told me not to send letters tdl people and to write what I was doing on a piece of paper. and where and why. Just type it out under date line. Put down who, what, when, Then at the top of the page put press release and date line it. That's news, and papers will print it. pape r s aren't allowed to do that. If you write a letter, that's campaigning and They won't do it. ff it.' s news they'll pr int, because that's their job tb report what's happening. If you write it down and date line it , that's what's happening and they'll print it no matter what it is . As long as it isn't profane or obscene. So, I star ted sendJ g out press releases and before long people started calling me. It was editors and said, "Hey, this sounds good. " So, within about five or six weeks, I had six major newspapers, three television stations and two FM radio �ll stations came and got on the band wagon and wanted every line of copy I would run out and it came right out of this room. Right here in fact, somewhere here's a big box with the whole, with everything that happened. The other siae, the highway officials, started to campaign against me. Q: What was their objection to building the road anyway? A: Didn't want to spend money where it wouldn't be to any advantage to them or any of their associates. I found out in my research that during a term in the state legis- lature by a local man, during the time some local people kept campaigning until they had $39, 000 allocated in the late forties to rebuild Clark Creek Road from Foscoe to Valle Crucis, all the way across. Nothing happened, the money disappeared. same year another road in the county was upgraded and paved. large tract of land. That Along that road was a That fellow in the state legislature from Boone, who happened to be a real estate dealer too, owned it. I found out a lot of things like that when I was reae arching. Q: Well, now I understand what you're talking about in that other tape about roads and ... there are incredible political thing ... A: Maybe, that'll add some light to that. Well, this fight went on this fight went on until June and I was never so suprised at how many people turned on me and my p·e arile. Some of my people turned on me. I found out they were under tremendous pressure from their employers that were golf playing buddies with some road commissioners and engineers, or their wives were bridge playing partners with the wives of road engineers and commissioners. it was fish or cut bait. All of a sudden, everybody was push and shove and I got a lot of pressure indirectly put on me along that line, and �12 it didn't bother me because the first time we had a meeting, I made a little speech and I said. "I'm saying this to you all, but it's actually addressed to the governor, " and I was making a tape. lease. The tape was later transcribed and put into the press re- I said, "We'll have a road by next year this time or I'll be in jail." I just told them, I said, "I fully intend to see that you people have a road, but only if you'll stick together and sti ck with me." I said, "None of you can do it by yourself, but all of you together can do it. " I said, "Our cause is good, it's honest, we've brought to it our integrity and our honorable intentions . Nobody will make any money. 11 I said, " We'll have a good bookkeeping sys t em, a good auditing system so that any money that comes in will be taken good care of and if any's left over we'll see that i s goes to charity, because it has to ... • " Q: This is your corporation, in othe r ... • you 're doing . A: This little corportation. Well, it started getting on the wi~e ser vices and some fellows in Raleigh who were always r eporters at the radio, television. and .... .. . . Wednesday afternoon conferences of Governor Scott, who was a friend of mine, until that point. He and these guys started asking questions about it. six months and got hotter and (:{ otter ~ It went for about Local political meetings in Boone I began to be described in very profane, vulgar terms, because election was coming up that fall. They were having problems in the party. They party in power then was my party. I'm a Democrat. · All of a sudden , they had a boil on their backside. and they didn't know what to do about it. They would come to see me and they would beg and they would whine and they wo.l!l.ld cry and they would appeal. date me. Then they would threaten and intimi- For me to set down and hush forget it, put out a press release, everything was fine, that I was wrong and I apologize. That there's no money and I was a l ei: tle �13 overboard in expecting them to spend it and all this . Well, my reply would be to open the door and invite them outside and say get the hell out here . I am right and I ' m not quitting . My people are not going to quit and that's exactly what happened so it went on until one day a news reporter called a friend of mine here in Raleigh and said that he was going to question the governor about it. I came in here, called the governor's office, talked to one of his aides, and I said, "I don't like to put the gov ernor in an awkward spot. Our problem is when I communicate with him, I get my letter back with a letter from him telling me to turn it over to the local officials, anii that he has written a letter and I'll get a copy of that to this local official. The local official there is writing him letters and his refusing to communicate with me tween us is the bad apple in the barrel. and this fellow in be- He's local and he has a lot of interest here. He's on the take." So, I called his aide and he was really pleased that I would be so benevolent as to call and give the governor forewarning that he's going to be questioned. So, he could look, make him.self look good, which I wanted him to do. I liked him. He's a good guy .. and he, you know, I had been at, I had been the guest prayer at the dinner table at several functions, you know. I made his acquaintance. him than I was. You ask to have the invocation and that's where That was all set up by a friend of mine who was closer to He would do this as a favor to me just so that I could .. . . Q: Yes, I know. Q: ..• be there and it didn't help my, didn't hurt my stock any to be seen sitting at the head tabJ..e woth the governor. The governor got the message and he told one of his aides, get me some word on this, get me some information. called and said that we were and were forewarned. This gut Let ' s be ready. somebody So, the guy got up and he asked a question, the fellow called me, he didn't know the governor would be forewarned. The governor didn't know I'd been called by the fe llow that was going �14 ask the question. When he passed the word down to get some information, they called this guy over here and he made up a big tale about me and when the question came the governor reached over off camera and got a little piece of paper and read a statement which made him very angry, because the statement was not true , and the information was that the road had been upgraded and partially paved a year before and he just, you know, then he put the note down and he went into a tirade about, you know. what in the world's this mountain preacher and this bunch of yokels wanted. He said, it sounded evidently their fixing to run for office this fall and then trying to get their name in the paper. You know, he made a couple of remarks that weren't really, they were a little uncalled for for a governor. Well, what he didn't know was the press releases had gone out a couple of days before the photographs. spring rain on that road. doors wouldn't open. One picture of a school bus up ,to the doors, so deep the Right in front of the church. graph of my four wheel drive up to the park lights. chains 0111 them. One more blast of a Another big four column photoWith all four wheels spinning with This was in the spring now. In May. The next morning just like a deck of card was a whole fan of state and out-of-state newspapers. Paul Harvey picked up on page two out of Portland, Oregon, and we started getting money from PortJ?and and all over the country. Got a contribution from Nova Scotia and one from Columbia, South America. The governor picked up the phone and said somebody lied to me and I want his head About a week later I got a nice letter, not to me, but to this friend af mme here. He wouldn't send it directly t o me, but he wrote the letter and told him to inform me that that morning he had signed an executive order to allocate twentyfive thousand dollars to repair this road. An executive order that the work begin immediately and be finished before the first snow. A little complimentary note at the bottom, to me, saying he, through this other fellow, saying that he was glad that I persevered and brought the needs of his constituents in this area to his personal �15 attention. He was sorry for the misunderstanding that we had and hoped that the road would be a big help to the community. I never answered his lette r. Q: He went his way. A: So, that's one of the things, but now what came out that was again this Lutheran orientation to getting an issue. that. Was a lot of people in the community against me after I think it was because of anxiety that I created. I became, in a way, it made me a celebrity, you know, people, and I was always in the paper. stantly there. It was a lot of mud slung back and forth. It was just con- We tried to stay abowe that. The mud that was slung on me some of it stuck, because I would not repudiate it. People would ask me, you know, is this true? Was I in a racket or was I, you know . cheating the church or had I stolen anything or was I in real estate up there and that kind of stuff. I'd just say,' "We 're going to build a road. I promised the people we'd ha ve a road by fall and we're going to gave it." I'd just walk away. know, when you start defending yourself you look too guilty. our own church, some of them, got a little jumpy with me. I felt like, yo-q; Then pepple, even in It's been five years. They got to see a side of me that they didn't know a pastor would have. their pastor. That side was when my horns show, they really show. Especially When I go for a guy, I go for his throat. Q: But they could see down the road. A: Yes, they could use the road . Q: Yes, they could use the road. A: AfteT a while they get used to the road and they begin to think that it's always been there. It's theirs, not mine, it's theirs. I live on the highway. Now, of course , �16 I have to drive on that road to get to my chur ch, but what happened is they saw a vicious side of me. They saw me go for a couple of commissioners' and h ighway engineers' throats and I got blood. What happened with people, of course. I'm a psychologist and a counselor, is that they think, Gosh if I ever oppose him in the church and a few of them had opposed in church, we had differences of opinions, in the church about programs or building or whatever. going to do to me when I stand up to him? 11 They began to say. "What's he It fl.ashed their thrust level out the wi n- dow and raised this anxiety. Q: Well, there must be ways of allaying that. A: There is . years. Keeping your head down and your mouth shut for abru t five or six Just, you know, be kind, show them that eventually let them get the idea that he helped us build a road because he's kind and not because he's mean. at. I had my mail box dynamited. children, a l:We skunk . in the morning. I had a skunk thrown in the house with my wife and I dro ve off to go to an emergency at the hospital about two Somebody jerked the So the dog and the skunk fought. gar ~ge door down and I had a dog down there. All over the side of my new car. came on and blew the skunk odor all o ver the house . cLJthes. ignored it. " The furnace It got in our food and all our V didn't even report it 'til six or eight months later. ve \ I got shot Just, you know, We got sick from the odor and I was a little worried about '.i:m ving to go out nights to meet emergencies with my family here . there's the gun and the r e's the bearload. I just told my wife, :I said, You hear a noise and it, and it's not �LA...1._qy CAMPBELL INT E!tVIEW #2 l APE 2 his is an intervi ew with Larry Campbell in his home . The interview i s mad e by Br enda Hicks wit h the Oral H istory Project at Appalachian State University. A: W would take a hundred and fifty miles of tape and you couldn ' t get it all . e Q : I know . A: On it ••••• Qt So I just decide ••••• As ••• the church. Maybe without having anyt ing to look thing maybe w 1vc cover ed enou h abou ••• • t or any notes or any- th, t eolo i cal poi nts of view and i f you start development of churches and it s hows some advantages and disadvantages of each other and of course , my point of view is colored . proud of it . I can talk about it and, like this n an interview or a general conversation or I can write you a theological dissertation . you the difference in how people progress . I 'm Lutheran and I 'm You know that shows To your less progressive communities in the mountains , to conclude about the church, your less progressive areas and canmunities in the mountains , are the ones where you will not find an evangelical point of view, religious point of view . Q: Well, I wonder if I understand exactly what evangelical means . It might be good just to say what you mean just for the tape . A: Well, an evangelical point of view ia one where God is the prime mover , as I said bef ore. Q: Okay, and you said that part of it . A: An evangelical point of view looks at the world . This world . Man ' s predica- ment as one redeemed by God, and in constant need of change and of redemption . Whereas , your fundamentalist point of view is strictly a soul- saving orientation. �2 That we 1re to be saved .from this wottld for the next one . our only hope . This is an evangelical theology so sure, but that 1 s promise . That ' s the promise . be redeemed . That the next world is Ood 1s always kept his premises . This is the world that must This is the world that is redeemed in Jesus Christ and that God de - cided to cane . Q: Okay. I did understand that was happening . I 1ve always misunderstood evan- gelism as being proselytism and like , g0ing out and winning •••• souls and adding to the number of members of your congregation, but not necessarily doing anything to improve •••• living conditions A: Notice the differnece in words . you 1re talking about . Evangelical is one, evangelistic is what When you listen to that tape you can tell that noise is me lighting my pipe . Q: Yes . A: Lutherans are evangelistic in a way. evangelical rather than fundamentalist . thin~s But , the theologi cal orientation is Of course, there ' s a lot of other about the f'undamentalist point of view the strict literal interpretation of the Bible . It would be totally asinine to expect a person without my back- ground in scriptual exegesis and analysis and understanding to sit down for just, you know, a very limitied inlightenment and education ••• to sit down and read with the same analytical understanding of what the scripture is trying to say. Now, that doesn 1t mean-- I would never pre-emPt the Holy Spirit · and say He c:ould not speak to that individual in anyway he wants to as he reads the Bible . But, as far as understanding what he ' s reading, in the truest analytical sense, I'd have a great advantage over him . Everybody lmows that . So , therefore, it 1 s my job as a preacher , and as a teacher and evangelist, to use my advantage to enlighten people to what the Bible says and what is means as they apply it ot every day �3 Also to the political and economic and social issues that they have to face when they get up and go out each morning. That's why I'm here. If I can motivate them to stop excepting this world as a kind of a punishment, a lost sinful sojourn that ' s full of suffering, death, and separation and pain that we have to go through before we can be redeemed into the next world. Got to be redeemed now, we've got to be stopping war now, we gotta stop pain now., we ' ve got to stop stealing whatever kind of form that steal ng takes, whether it's slipping in a man's home at night and swiping his pocketbook or his cow, or his car or whether it's stealing through the system. The white collar stealing. stealing and cheating that goes on. to sit by and not stop it now. The political industrial It's got to be stopped now. It ' s unchristain Say this is a wicked, wicked world and we've got to stay out of it, stay away from it, no world and no guitars , no beer, no women, no cards , no laughter, no joy, no .. onothing except go to church, make a decision for Christ and wait on the death angel to come for me . a denial of the grace of God . I can 't do that . That's The grace of God is big enough, and powerful enough to walk i n and shake this world right now . We ' ve got to do that . we ' re lettingoo •we're not being good evangelist and proselytes . proselyte anybody fran anybody el.Be's church . side .. a.fran without the church . Otherwise , I dcn 1t want to I want to proselyte them from out- Into mine or anybody ' s church , if they ' ll really and truly find the Lord and then come out so set afire that they ' ll walk up to a senator or a governor or engineer or a lawyer or a businessman or anything, and say, "You 're wrong . 11 That ' s contrary to what God says we must do . So, I 'm go- ing to take you on. 11 So much for that unless you have another questi on on the church. Q: No, that's good . A: f ou mentioned that you would like to get into this mobile home phenomena for just a little bit . �4 Q: Yeso A: You know the best way to look at .it is that there are t wo or three facts about a mobile home . They' re not permanent . and they ' re not emotionally permanent . camper , in a way, emotionally. In reality they ' re not permanent In other words , they ' re l.i.ke a monstrous They have wheels and frames under , they have a hitch on the front where you can hook it to a tow vechicle and rid of it . mo~e it. You get You ' ll see occasionally, you ' ll drive by a place where last year there was a big mobile home , this year you see the mobil e there ' s a permenent . That ' s r are . 1 s been towed away and Most of the time you go by where last year there was a mobile home and you come back and you see there ' s a rundown mobile home . Maybe the old one is gone and a new larger mobile h6Jne with one more bed- room for that new youngun that came in the spring . Q: Do you remember they •••when the people first started seeing them aronnd here . I mean just plain old history about them might be a good way to orient . A: Well, not really. I cou2dn 1 t say for sure . to see them more and more . gan to see them aromd the war babies . I have to tell you when I began I began to see them, what i~ this 75, 65, 55. 1950 ro 55. Along about then , when people ahout my age, I 'm not a war baby. I ' ve got f i 'fte en years on t he war babies , . but I was getting my education along with some of the war babi es . behind . I be - I was a little When people my age and much younger like my a ge and ten years younger , who did not do as I did , which was have the great advantage of somebody making them go on and get t hat education, began to get married . Now , before the war , when there was little money here , mobi le homes are just like resort developments . They show up where the money is . In an area where there ' s industry and where there are young people who are making money and where there ' s a lack of housing . A lack of adequate housing . Then all of a sudden, bang, you've got these stupid little metal toadstools sitting around everywhere with people living in them . �5 If I sound pretty hostile towards them it ' s for several reasons . Not just their looks and not just the financial disadvantage it puts young people or old people at, but because I 'm a fire chief and a North Carolina State Fire Fighter Association member.. If I didn 1 t like you and I wanted to really put your life in jeop- ardy, I 1 d move you into a mobile home . trap . They' re just a hot- box . They ' re a death Now they •re requiring a lot of other safety features being built into ' em . You lalow, what difference does it make w hether you have thirty seconds or sixty seconds to get out of one . Be cause that ' s about the difference . you ' ve got a minute to ~t out i f it catches fire . If one unsafe They ' re put together with glue and under heat , glue emits f\unes that are explosive and toxic and deadly. When one gets hot you.' re dead unless you ••• Q: From the inhalation? A: Yeah . Q: Don 1t they have two exits 'l A: Yes , but in super heated air with toxic , noxious fumes , unless you really So much for that . know what to do , unless you really get the jump on it when you maybe smell a little smoke and you just get out instead of hunting for it . It doesn ' t make any difference . Just get out . When you get one breath of that super-heated noxious i\unes , that comes from any fire , not just a mobile home . you ' re going to live twenty seconds . You ' re dead . O breath and ne I ' d say along about nineteen f i fty ••• five or somewhere along there , mobile himes began to show up . already in other parts of the country. began to come here . They wer e I know, beca se i saw them there . They One reason you didn ' t see too many here was because the roads were so darn crooked you couldn ' t pull them through here , without tear.ing them up . Q: The natural protective instinct of the mountains . As Y . es That ' s right and we wiped that out didn ' t we . I didn ' t take but a few �6 super highways and now you can get these big twelve foot wide jobs in here . almost hit me here this morning as I was pulling off the road . that car, I wish he had hit it . (Laughter) One I 'm trying to sell I ' d have sent him a nice bill and •• Of course , that ' s a foreigh made car and if he had hit it, it would ' ve destroyed d ' ve, he would have wi p~d it out . his mo bile home o An American They couldn ' t get the big ones in here and a few little ones were here and there , but not many. The roads improved and they could get them in. Suddenly, there was a generat ion of young people who weren't ready to follow the traditional route to finding a home . Before t he war, and up to I ' d say till after the war a few years . If you lived here in the mountains and along came a fellow and you 1ve decided to get hitched to him, after however long a courtship it took you to make up yotll' mind . Usually it was his courtship you know, he decided he wanted him a woman . You were about ready to decide that to be s mebody ' s woman . you livel He bad seasonal work . An Agr· -busines • part-time .or he could do carpenter work Maybe he wo-J.ld drive a truck other hander part- time , but where did he f am if he was young? Okay, where would to~ hanc:Llabor and fanned He farmed his Dad ' s place . His Grandpa 's place, or rented some of his neighbor ' s and did some tenant farming . You did the same thing. You know, you may not exactly be a fann family, but you- it would be very deeply rooted in the ground , you raised most of what you ate including yotll' meat . Even though one or more of your parents worked some- where else part-time, but it ' s doubtful . You would probably be a famero Unless you could drive a truck or saw lumber . This kind of thing . You lived with your Mama and Daddy. chever family had the biggest home and d:fdn 1 t mind having that extra belly at the table . Where would you live? Especially, if that fellow had that extra belly or that girl that had that extra belly at the table could work . There wa a need for the whatever they could do around the place . You lived a year or so with one set of parents and then decided to move over with the otherso That would happen a lot of times , because there would be a little friction in the �7 home . bigger . You would live there until all of a sudden , your belly started getting Then they ' d realize ther ' s a little one on the way. Wel l , now, that usually didn 1t change things too much , maybe have to tighten up one of the rooms, you know , put a little paper on the wall and make it a little warmer for that little fellow . Because we always a ssume that each generation little nwre tenderfooted than the last . that~•.s born is a If my kids had to live in a house llie a couple I had to live in when I was their age , they would freeze to death . of consumption or somethin£ . Die I ' ve woke up several times in a couple of the old houses where my grandparents and my parents liv d , where it came a blowing snowstorm with just a little fly snow the night before and there would be long fingers of snow where it had blown in around the windows or the cracks in the :hogs or the wallboards , be long fingers of snow all the way across the bed or under the bed . My shoes would be full a lot of times , be full of snow . l t would be so darn cold that it wouldn ' t melt a.'ld it would stick to my shoe , pick up and pour it out like flo~ . You could see cracks ·through the floor , lot of times see the dogs laYi.ng under the house . Of course , through the cracks where the fleas would get through if you didn ' t keep the dogs clean . That ' s where you would live . there and for all you know maybe , a little while longer . You would live Granny and Grandpa were gettling old , it ' s a possibility that you were going to get that place . the house you could fix it up and you could live there . At least If they weren ' t too old and you were the third or fourth generation still living in one of the other or both clans , as time goes by maybe there comes antother one , you know 9 You have to announce Johnnt ' s going to have a little brother or little sister . Then you and your husband are going to start negotiation with one set of parents for a little piece of land that you can work out slowly with work and pay a little on it with money and that all pitch in together and you could begt n to think in terms of putting a little house on it . It uouldn 1t be much of a house , but if you coul d do without it you damn well wouldn ' t live in one like that nowa da ys . You would have �8 been mighty proud of it back then . It was yours . One of the dreams that you had done without until you were thirty five , maybe thirty eight years old , that young people just can ' t do without now past twenty two or three . dreams is suddenly about to be fulfilled . One of your A little flower garden, a back porch where you could set your washing machine , if you· got any water in the house . little garden, a little fence around it, a p you get up in the morning and this is home . A e for the·_. younguns to play and It may not be much, but it ' s hane . Just like today, it ' s going to cost you, take a lot of hard work to bUild it, paint it, keep it up , but since it waan ' t much to start with you don ' t pay quite as much attention to making it look like scmething out of a magazine as people think ycu have to do today. and says , 11 You read magazines . O day the old boy comes home ne Look what I got in the back of the truck . " it ' s a teleVision . You go out and look and Roads upen up and y.cru. can get mail and ~t a chance to sub- scribe to a magazine , ycu know, telling you how to fix yourself up a little better . How to decorate your house a little better . On ... every page there ' s a picture of a mobile hane , the interior furniture display or a kitchen . looking at that . Your kids grow up Of course , you know, you ' re liVing back before the war , but your kids are growing up and they ' re looking at those pictures . of the war and a little later they ' ll look at the television. here ' s one seventeen to nineteen year old . or he '-s got him a girl . no house . Towards the end Before you know it She comes in and she ' s got her a man, They want to get married . Start looking arrund . The one you ' ve built ' s not quite big enough . There ' s It ' s just not kosher anymore to live with mam and daddy, becuase they, you know , maybe been spending a little time tiving together anyway. live with mama and daddy. You don ' t know . So , it 1 s not knsher to They start looking around and they go to the savings and loan, or they go to the contractor . That little house that you and his dadd said would cost eight thousand dollars is probably twenty thousand now . know, you got that off of your daddy. You So , t hey start looking and they go to the �9 savings and loan and the bank and they get you, they hear figures like forty, fifty, sixty thousand dollars. thousand dollars, if he's lucky. What does he make a year? Eight thousand, nine She makes maybe five or six, possibility they might lose those jobs , economy's not too goodo Back a few years ago when it was booming, still a possibility -they ' d lose it, especially if they work in a resort. Q: Yes, or construction . A: O kay. They drive down to G ranite Falls to Fin German's or down to W ilkesboro to Oa.kwoods or over here around Boone to some of the shysters. sell you one in a minute . ninety dollars down . G. c . Green will Y go over there and it ' s only three hundred and ou Eighteen, twenty, twenty-two year mortgage. O nly fifty nine dollars for three bedrooms and it ' s twelve feet wide and you walk in it . It looks like all those things you saw on television and that beatiful furniture . All of a sudden, you 're in euphoria . home. You're living in a villa . You've got this beautiful, mediterranean You lmow, it's got archways and it ' s got false panels, and it ' s got closets and it's got carpets up to your tail . these beautiful long drapes and it smells good . everything built in. It ' s got It's got a modern kitchen with The walli are only two and an eighth of an inch thick . can take your fist and knock a hole throu~h any door in it. You Most of them are on plastic or nylon rollers and when you walk through it, you lmow, you don't notice that it swayi a little bit . Y don 1 t lmow that it's dangerous in a storm. ou dangerous under heavy snow . That it's mostl,y metal and if a short in the electri- It ' s cal system occurs it could ki l l you when you stand on the wet ground and touch it . If i t catches fire, it's going to get hotter quicker than any ki.nd of structure you can build, be cause it' s built like a long tube, it'll make a draft just like a chimney. They don't tell you all that. Here 1s a young couple and thi s is the finest home they ' ve ever seen and they can pull it anywhere they want it . can find them a little lot and sock it in there . They All they need is to dig a water �10 line, get sane power brought in and put in a septic tank . zoning problems , and they ' d not until a year or so ago . If they don ' t run into So , here you are . The banking institutions say this couple don't have much money, they're going to have to pay a long time and on unpaid balance per interest. They don't know it but we ' re fixing to sell them a fifty- nine hundred dollar house trailer for nineteen thouseand dollars over the years . It ' s about what it figures out by the time they repair it, move it, put in a septic system, 'keep it f'ran leaking, replacing the floors or replacing th interest ov r th ye s. hatever and all th . over the years . The appoiances in it are goi ug to go bad , ju;st like all appliances do and they ' re seoond rate appliances to begin with . brand is on there. Of course, the I don ' t care whose When a big company like G. E. or Whirlpool ' s making appliances on a contract for a half two hundred thousand of them for a mobile hane ·building factory they going to give them cheap junk . It ' s that simple . Q: W could just about be f inished i f you want ••• As Okay, t ell him .iust a mcaemt . it' s easy-. So this this is where your mobile hane is, but It's attainable . Q: It seems easier f or• o•• As It ' s attainable . Well, the mon y payment, this thing that , this mental dis- ease that we have in America, this monthly payment is attainable . what happens if I get my leg br oke or if I die . To hell with They going to sell me sane insurance that ' ll pay for six months if I can ' t work or they ' ll pay it all off if I die . That ' s going to cost me an extra seven or eight dollars a month . as I can reach it p.er month . I ' ve gone through it myse.a.r, I know .. s on I 'm getting rid of all my automobiles , except one . don •t want aJ'l3?1lore American made cars . to sell . As long That ' s the r ea- I 1m selling them out. I I 1m tired of driving vehicles that &re made I want one that ' s made to drive . You know, I want quality instead of �ll looks . I 'm tired of driving sanething t hat nobody can fix , nobody wants . got all the conveniences of a seven forty seven . I can afford per month . It ' s It won ' t 'f!Ven roll at the price I ' ve got to do my work and I 1m tired of trying to do my work when my machinery ·won 't work . So , I just got rid of that . Some countries make cachinery that is smaller , more safel y constructed , that ' ll last, because they ' ve built in countri es where you don' t have a lot of notural resources , a lot of energy, or a lot of room to •••• for roads. I j ust read somewhere I think in a W inston paper t!iis morning where a fellow said , 11 I wonder what we' re gonna do first . Are we going to complete l y pave the world or run out of first?" The mobile hime is the same way, y we stan the monthly payment . Can W started to get into e We went around and al. 11ost signed a con1 Then we frund a beartiful ll ttle apartment right near the campus when I was in school in Columbia . price we could afford . Which will happen It ' s all a part of this . If you lived at any time. mobile homes when we were first married . tract on a couple of them . lmow . as'l A little two story apartment at a Much cheaper than the payments on a mobile home . we were ready to graduate , we knew that we had housing . Then We wouldn't get our rent back , of course , but you don ' t get your rent back out of a mobile hane . A ten thrusand dollar mobile home depreciates about thirty- five hundred dollars the first twelve months . Y ou're not going to pay thirty- five hundred dollars on it. So your long peri:M where you can ' t sell it became you owe more on it, than it's wortli.. Unless you can find someplace e lse to live and kee equal to more than that m.onthlyr payment . it and rent it for Rent it to sane other idiot. happens but we almost got into a mobile home . This Then we be an to realize we 1d have to go through the problems of t r ying to sell it , we could pay out a lot of interest money. \~ would have to insure it ourselves . We would have to just, it ' s a lot easier to tell a landlord, " Listen, I 've been sick . I didn ' t work she worked . I went to school . Savings and loan won ' t do that . do that . You pay or it 1s gone . My wife's out of work. " You could pay the rent later. A bank won 't do that . The finance companies won ' t Unless you have a second mortgage and then you �12 mu.st pay it by he end of the month plus interest and penalties . So the mo ile heme industry has , it and the financial institut ions are very much in cahoots . They:'~e the ones that really take these people for a ride . not durable , but they ' re the only housing that you can get . They ' re ugly, unsafe, You tell me a yO\mg couple s t arting out, who can buy or build or even afford rent now . mount , instead f renting to you, if you i ng to you a young couple , in:itead of rent- _ say a hundred and fifty doll s a month, I c on a little two bedroom house. end renting it to tourists . t fifty five dollars I can get fifty-five dollars for a three dp.y week- I can get two hundred dollars a week , not a month, a week out of it, renting it to the tourists . So , I 'm not going to rent it to you. it. r Here in the Just put cheap junk in it and rent I 'm going rent it to the tourists . So , you see , if you wnat to live around here you ' re going to have to but a mobile home . Q: Thank you Mr . Campbell A: You 're welcane . I wish we had more time . Let me catch this phone . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brenda Hicks Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Campbell, Larry Number of pages 28 pages Date digitized 9/18/2014 File size 18.5MB Checksum alphanumeric code 098cc60ff761e38f24ef8d71a53765d7 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape333_LarryCampbell_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Campbell Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hicks, Brenda Campbell, Larry Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Campbell, Larry--Interviews Holy Communion Lutheran Church (Banner Elk, N.C.) Avery County (N.C.)--Politics and government--20th century Mobile home living--North Carolina, Western Evangelicalism--North Carolina, Western Description An account of the resource Reverend Larry Campbell discusses local music and its origins, his battle to have a road built for his church, the Holy Communion Lutheran Church, and the dangers of living in a mobile home. banjo Brush Arbor Brush Arbor camp meetings Clark's Creek Road Evangelicalism fiddles folk dance folk music Fontana Village glue grass gospel guitar Irish music Larry Campbell Lutheran Church mobile homes music North Carolina State Fire Fighter Association road paving Scots music Union Grove https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e71c3962b6026b4437e3f85535e7e0d4.pdf 3ecd91321be125e1d7751174fe430a23 PDF Text Text OUTLINE-Phil Templeton - Nov. 12, 1975 I. History of business A. II. Recession A. III. 1967 - Becoming popular w/Fla. people (area). 1. Saw demand so started business 2. Been growing steadily since 1967 Affected all real estate businesses 1. Reason - People no longer can spare money for investments Discussion of business A. What type of people real estate in Boone is for 1. Offices in business for 5-10 yrs. for investors looking for property 2. University had increase since '63 a. Students b. Parents c. Faculty & staff SHORT INTERRUPTION BY TELEPHONE CALL 3. We are in diversified markets (moble homes, apts., buying land) B. How to acquire land 1. You know what land is available 2. Through real estate board meeting 3. A business describes what they want & we go find it C. Why do people come to mountains to build 1. Beauty of mtns. D. People bringing w/them what they are trying to leave. Is development changing mtns.? 1. Some people more to Boone & then want development stopped but a selfish approa~ 2. Economic side a. Farmer who can't make decent living 3. County zoning good but shouldn't go too far a. City zoning ordinance b. No county zoning yet 4. Farming here never been lucrative 5. Ecologists inconsiderate 6. To tell a guy he can't grade a mtn. top is one thing �2 E. Good things brought about by development 1 . Roads improved 2. Other economic improvements 3. Created income , jobs 4. Given people a reason to stop in Boone a . Motels improved 5. When you stop development , stop growth a . To those who have steady income , don ' t care if Boone doesn ' t grow b . People narrow-minded in their fixed positions F. Will mountains lose cultural heritage 1 . T. V. makes people aware of outside world 2 . Culture & mtn . life as once known will soon be gone G. Can there be progress & save culture 1. Don ' t know of any way a . Would be good to preserve heritage & upgrade standing at same time H. What would you like to see happen in area 1 . As real estate man a . Boom & growth (orderly growth) I. What do you predict will happen? 1 . Boone's growth will level off in 1980 a . No money to invest b . University growth will level off c . No influx of industry d . Not enough people to man industry 2 . No boom for yrs . to come a. We are gearing down now. J • . Personal comments 1. Have enjoyed living in area but desirability depends on ability to make an income �This is Janice Young and Jane Efird on November the 12th , 1975. We're working for the Appalachian Oral History Project at Appalachian State University. Today we are speaking with Mr. Phil Templeton who is at Carolina Realty. And we · re speaking to him at his office on Blowing Rock Road, in Boone. Q: O. K., Will you give us a brief history of your business? A: 0. K. The , our business was organized in April of 1967, uh, primarily due to the fact that the area at that time was becoming very popular with Florida people and uh people who wanted to buy resort property acreage for investment , second homes, and things of this sort. We saw the demand and , so we set up our offices at that time and we have uh grown steadily from then to our present time and our present location. Q: O. K., uh , how has the recent recession , has it affected your business? A: Most definitely , I think it has affected all real estate companies. Uh , the reason being the people that we were selling land to and houses and investment acreage , were people who had made good profit in the stock market or who had saved up their money for retirement and thought they could spare some of it for investments. People coming up looking for second homes, and then when the energy crisis came, 18 or 24 months ago, and inflation kept growing , people became concerned about their retirement money not being sufficient for their own needs let along investment. They became concerned about having the gasoline to drive from Atlanta to Boone to see their property. and uh this curtailed that investment group ) I ' d say a good 75~. �2 Q: Uh , you said , you know , your busine s s really got started when the Florida people and people like that came. Uh , do not necessarily you , but other real estate businesses around here , do you all cater particularly , you build for people like that or are there some of the real estate businesses geared more for local people like building homes and stuff like that? A: Well , most of the real estate offices that have been in operation for 5 to 10 years have uh made the main , their main efforts , directed their main efforts toward the investors looking for property up here. And in addition to that , the university had a growth of about 6,000 , , had an increase of about 6 , 000 form 1963 until the present time and this growth in student population caused the growth in the faculty and staff. Uh , it brought parents up here who had never before been in the area. that they wanted to buy. They saw things In fact , we just sold a house the other day to a student , a girl student who · s father bought it for her to live in while she goes to school. Uh , the university I think has as much impact , the growth of the university had as much impact on the area as did the skiing industry and the tourism in general. So , people , real estate companies , who have geared themselves primarily toward that market are in bad trouble or have gone out of business because that market dried up. the point where (INTERRUPTION: We're diversified to PHONE CALL) As I was saying , the real estate companies who have, who were geared to that market alone, the Florida market and the investors have had a very difficult time. But we were, we were in a business, �3 a business earlier and became diversified in the mobile home parks . commercial development , uh , buying and selling real estate, ourselves, and the apartment complex we had, so we've been able to exist where others would have had to fold up. Q: That's another question I wanted to ask was , like what all tyµes of like apartments you were saying and mobile homes and buy and sell real estate . How do you acquire your land? Would you tell us a little about that? A: Well , being in the real estate business you know what land is available for sale . some is too high . Some land comes in at a good price, If a piece of property is listed with us that we feel like is a good buy , and that we can develop it , then we ' ll buy it ourselves and develop it , you see. Uh , some other realtor might have a piece of property for sale that we find out about through our local real estate board meeting . and then we buy that land. Another case is , is if a business comes to town wanting a building built and lease it to them. They tell us what they want and what they ' ll pay and then we go out and find the property and build the building for them, or sell it to them or Whatever. Q: So that ' s the method of operation. I have a question that's made just to be an opinion of yours . Why do you think so many people like to come to the mountains here? And have do so much in the past? �4 A: Well , primarily the mountains themselves. I've travelled all over the world, from Hong Kong to Switzerland, and there are very few places that are as pretty as the Western North Carolina Mountains, believe it or not. I've been to the Rocky Mountains, I've been to uh the Carribean , I've been all over. and for natural beauty this area is hard to beat. Q: It really is . Well , uh , another man we interviewed made a comment that the peoole that are , that are , do come up here , like Florida people, that they're really bringing with them what they are trying to leave , you know to come to these beautiful mountains. think , what do you think about this? Do you Do you think the real estate business or all this development is changing the mountains? A: It's changing the mountains , but I don't think to a , to a negative degree because a 200 acre tract of land is nothing , you know , unless someone does something with it . So , there are those people who would like to come up here and say , O. K. , I ' m, I've moved to Boone , not let's, let's, cut, cut all future growth out, now that I'm here. O. K? Cause I like the way - Jo~ B~ ow ' s farm i s s just like that -=:ana >!'.:·-.don't want him to develop it, see cause ; I want to enjoy it for my own beauty . of people I resent. ment. So, that's the type I'm for ecology , and I'm for orderly develop- But you've always got the extreme element who comes in and says O. K. , I'm here now Boone to grow any more . ago O. K? that's all I care about . I don't want We sold a house to a couple about 2 years and the other ni ght at a meeting his wife made that very comment, �5 I don't want Boone to grow any more , now that · r•m here. that's a selfish approach to it. Well, So , I think a lot of times people have the uh , notion that they can dictate to another property owner what he can do with his lands. that the And I'm sure Utopia would be that everything would remain in its natural state and be beautiful and everybody would enjoy it, but, for those who have to look at the economic side of it , a farmer whose , who can no longer make a decent living on a farm. What's he gonna do . see , is he gonna draw welfare , or is he gonna be allowed to develop his property, sell off tracts and uh, and derive income from that, and continue to live of is he going to be uh , put into welfare for the rest of his days , you see? I think a happy medium's got to be struck here, so county zoning , is a good thing providing its not, its not done too far, you see. Q: What kind of zoning laws are there in Boone? What kind of restrictions are there? A: Well in the city of Boone , of course , you have the city zoning ordinance , which takes care of your , it takes care of all the property within the city limits of Boone , that's the residential, the commercial . the industrial , properties. of the town. yet. So , uh , that takes care Now outside of the city , we don't have county zoning There's been , uh , a lot of effort put toward coming up with a county zoning plan. But here you get into such uh , a bag of worms because what one farmer wants to do with his land the other farmer might not want to. And you , you get to tinkering with someone s uh , ability to make, uh, a living off their land , you see. And it's , it's much more difficult to have orderly zoning of a county �6 than it is a city, for the reasons that most of the rural people are, are very very much against someone in town passing an ordinance or a county law telling them that they can't raise hogs in their back yard, if tha2s what that guy has for a source of income. See, the farming in this area never has been lucrative. The weather is too unpredictable. not enough rain. very great. If you got too much rain or The cost of farming hillside land is very, is So, I am for zoning and things as long as it's done in moderation, you see. But invariably your ecologists , and when I speak of ecologists I'm not speaking of the average citizen, I'~ talking about those who , who go out and eat the bark off the trees and this sort of thing , the real , the real nature lovers. They're the ones who I think are the most inconsiderate andthe most demanding on other peoples rights. Q: Especially as relates to their farm. Do you have any kind of restrictions on , like how it can be used? land use sales , You know , laws like , I mean like, if you sell some land , is there any way people can use it, like they can go out and just grade it off , you know, leave it bare? A:· Well , inside the city limits, if we sell a tract of land, the buyer has to develop it according to the zoning law, Number 1. Number 2, we have the pollution laws now which prohibits someone from grading off a hillside and just leaving it there without reseeding it and I think that's good, you know. I think that's O. K., but to tell a gµy that he can't grade· off a mpuntaintop is one thing , but to let him grade it off and then let him put it back in a good state of appearance and uh , erosion proofing all right. I think that's �7 Q: Uh , I have a auestion here about not just , not just your business , but just all the development that has taken place over the past or however many years. Could you give us in your opinion what are some of the good things that have come about because of this development? For instance , the economic situation. Then give us some of the bad things you think. A: Well , I, I moved to Boone when I was must have been 8 or 9 years old. And , back at that time , the population of Boone was probably 15 hundred. The student population probably 900. we didn't have good roads in through Boone. entertainment-wise. Uh, We had meager facilities, There was one movie in _town. Uh, there were no restaurants to go out to eat to speak of , maybe one or two little cafes. The university hadn'g expanded to offer the arts and the sciences and the things it does today , the local people can take advantage of. So , as the area has grown, the roads have been im- proved , and I noticed in the paper this week that River Street back there is going to be four-lane . and this is , this is the good things that come about as a result of growth. When a business comes into town . and succeeds that creates jobs for people . that creates income for their employees to spend in the local stores. It creates a better economic situation all the way around , you see. something more to people coming through Boone. reason to stop , whereas in years past It offers It gives them a they'd come through town and s ay , well , there was Boone , what was it , you know. I missed it. Now we · ve got a Holiday Inn in Boone, they'll stop and spend the night. And, before the Holiday Inn came , many people didn't stay in Boone simply because the motels were so inferior. want to come and stay in a dinky motel. They didn't So, an upgrading of the �accomm .iations and I think that uh , just a general economic, uh, improvement comes from development. And when you stop the developers, I'm speaking of commercial developers, land developers, in terms of residential of anything like that you'll literally stop the gfowth, you see. And that's fine for someone to uh be in favor of that who has a state job at the university , drawing a salary from the state, if Boone didn't grow another bit it wouldn't matter. But if that person weren't employed by the state , and had to depend on outside employment for . for livelihood , he·11 look at it differently you see. It's very easy for those people on fixed salaries or state salaries to . to look out and say well now he shouldn't have built that hamburger joint right there because it will hurt the looks of that street. But if he weren't drawing that salary from the state, then he would be out having to be employed by , perhaps by that burger house. And then it'll be an asset to him. I think people are narrow-m~nded in their , in their opinions sometimes because of , they're secure in their positions so the heck with everybody else. Q: I think one of the main things that we were , that uh the Oral History has been concerned with is the question of whether Appalachian mountaineers are gonna lose their cultural heritage with all the new ~eople coming in , and all the change going on. What do you think about that? A: Very possibly you're , that could be , especially to some degree. If a guy has made a living building mountain crafts, lets say, and uh the area keeps growing he can get a-job in a factory , then you're losing one segment of the , uh of the craft business , and maybe that is never taken up again in his family. But } with the advent of television and people in this area having TV's in their homes, �9 they're aware of the outside world much more than, than we were when I was growing up here. Uh, when I was growing up , to go to town on Saturday was a pig deal . you know , and to go to the movie was an even bigger deal. when I was growing up. I think it cost a dime to go to the movie But , uh , I think the . the influence of , of , uh . t.elevision and radio and news , dissimination in particular has had as much influence as anything else. So , I think you're right , uh , the cultural end of it and the , the mountain life as it was once known , will soon be , be gone. Q: Do you see any way of keeping all the progress and saving this cultural heritage? A: Frankly , I don't know how you would do it , uh, I wish there were some way to do it , uh , I wish there were some way to do it. In other words, if you could keep the culture like it was and yet upgrade a fellow's standard of living , you see. To go back into the mountains here and find an old mountain family that's been rooted in their uh area there for a hundred years and to observe them with curiosity and amusement is one thing , but to upgrade that fellow ! s standard of living to where he has an indoor bath , television , uh, hot-air furnace . an automobile to drive 1 a tractor to plow his fields with . it's very difficult for that to ever come about unless he leaves the old ways and adapts to the new , to the new times. Q: The last uestion I have here is , what would you like to see happen in this region, say within the next 20-25 years in the area of growth and progress? �10 A: Well . as a real estate man . of course . you have a desire to see the thing grow and get back in the boom it was in the early 1970.s. On the other hand , I can see that there would be dis- advantages to that continuing right on without orderly growth, so if I were to have, uh , if I were to have my , my wishes granted in that respect , I would say wish for an orderly growth, by that I mean , a growth that can be kept up with in utilities , in streets, in services , uh , commerserate with the number of people coming in the area. I don't think any area should grow faster than its cap- abilities for providing the essential services, in terms of power, uh , fuel . uh . roads , services , shopping areas and schools. So as long as the . the services and utilities could keep up with it , I think it would be fine. Q: What do you predict will happen? A: Well . if I were , if I had a crystal ball I would say that the growth of Boone is going to level off sometime around 1980. Two or three reasons , one reason I think people aren't going to have the extra money to . to uh . invest in pro erty , they're going to have to spend the money that they have to live on. With inflation, the cost of everything going up , we're not going to have the excess money that we once had. level off. Secondly , I think the University growth is going to I think m~ybe you get up to ten or twelve thousand students and that'll be the plateau that uh, that'll level off . Uh , thirdly I don't think that there·s going to be any influx of industry here to speak of, because the lack of , of uh, water and rail service , and the trucking up the mountains can get so expensive �11 that's another deterent to industries moving in . Another item is we simply don't have the people to man another great deal of industry you ee . Industry ' s going to go where the people are, and where their products going out you see , their materials coming in and so forth . And we don't have this , I would say that ' s the biggest drawback to . the biggest single drawback is the rail service. we have a railroad now in West Jefferson. Now Giving an example, I am one of the owners of a lumber company , and we · re buying· our lumber from the west coast. It's sh~pped all the way to Boone , or to West Jefferson rather , on . uh , rail cars and we take our trucks to West Jefferson . pick it up and haul it to Boone. Now there·s not enough demand for that rail service in this area to make it a profitable operation for the railroads, therefore , they ' ve petitioned the, uh , agency that handles that to eliminate , to let them eliminate the , uh , rail service to West Jefferson . Now when that happens we'll have to go down to North Wilkesboro and pick up the lumber and haul it all the way up the mountain on trucks which is going to take .more time, more fuel , uh, more wear and tear on the vehicles , and consequently, cost more money to someone buying lumber . So , if we had a rail head in Boone . let's say , like , uh , we had a good track in and out ofr Boone that would make a big difference because then you could induce a factory to come in , but it's difficult for them to do it all by trucks. And this is the problem , one of the biggest problems we · re going t o have . So I would say by 1980 we'll see a great levelling off in the growth of t his area . �12 Q: Between the time from now to 1980 do you think there·11 be another boom like before? A: No . I don't think there 11 be another boom for many years to come. I think we'll have a , a uh . in fact we're on the , we're gearing down now . The big decrease was back in the last 24 months and now it's gonna be a gradual decrease , I think , you know , as far as the people coming in the area and then maybe by 1980 we'll see a levelling off. strictly speculation . Of course . what we're talking about here is I could be dead wrong , but that's . I've given a lot of thought to tha t very auesti on , because that . the answer to that question determines what we do in our offices. Whether we devote our energies to another aspect of real estate , whether we develop commercial properties or houses or whatever . Q: Uh , do you have anything you'd like to add to this , your own personal opinions or anything? A: No , not really, I , just to say that I've enjoyed living in the area and uh , a lot of other people do , but the success or the desirability of anybody living anywhere is their ability to make an income and a living whereever they are and we've had many people come in the area uh , to give an example when (INTERRUPTION - END OF TAPE) This is Jane Efird with Mr . Phil Templeton . we : re interviewing him for the second time on November 20 , 1975 . Q: Mr. Templeton ,. you mentioned before that the area must obtain orderly growth , and uh . you also mentioned that you weren t in favor of too many zoning laws such as the mountain management act , could you , uh , go into detail a little about this , as to why you aren : t uh . too favorable , or too much in favor of this? �13 A: I don t know tha much. about the Mountain Land Management Act yet uh . but in what discussions I've had with people who were familiar with it it seems like that it uh , closely parallels the results of what's happened down east with the Coastal Land Management Act . It was initiated some time ago , and in talking with people who have had contact with that law there . it's very bureaucratic in it's set up. You have to get numerous permits for doing anything. Uh , almost a nightmare of headaches and paper work involved in complying with the letter of the law of the Mountain , I mean of the Coastal Land Management Act that was enacted . business Our concern being in the real estate is that the people who initiate these acts many times have a very honorable purpose in mind and on the face of it , it turns out to be a very good act , but then it ' s expanded , added to , changed, amended . modified or whatever , and becomes a real headache for everybody. And almost stimies growth completely . so unfortunately the people who, uh who make these laws and who enforce them are people who . who have no experience whatever in developing land . they have no concept of the developers point of view they . they're trying to create utopia a it's very difficult to do this and still meet the needs of everybody . So . from what I know of the Mountain Land Management Act , that they're working on at the present time , I think I'd be opposed to it . Not because of it's present statutes , but expect to grow out of it you see . because of what you can Uh , it's , it may be a baby today and a monster tomorrow. Q: Who are these people that are , uh, developing this act? A: I'm sure it's the environmentalists , uh , group , primarily , like the Sierra Club and things of this sort , who get behind it and initiate the action . and of course , you have your federal agenci~s a~d your state agencies who . who get together and uh , you know, actually do the legislation. Uh , drawing up the legislation and submit it to �14 the legislature to be enacted into law. And , uh , the Sierra Club , I think , has done a lot of good things , but by the same token. they have their own nar row interests at heart. care less about the economic growth of a region They could whether the farmer makes a living or whether he doesn ' t is immaterial to them as long as the land is protected for their enjoyment , you see. And : gh . I'm not speaking of all Sierra Club members because I've got friends in town who are members of the Sierra Club. But I think the overall thrust of their effort is uh is in that vein . you know , not so much as to what's the practical approach . but a narrow a narrow view , towards strictly conservation. Q: Uh . last time you were talking about , giving us an example about how much trouble it was to get permits and things like that A: would you tell that now? Locally we don't have too much trouble with that at this point, uh. it seems like almost monthly there·s another permit required to do something , you know. But I think, by and large , we are fortunate in that area because we haven't gotten so regimented that we have problems with it. I was reading in the paper the other day someone down east , it seems like they had to have either 23 or 33 permits . I've forgotten the number , to build one , to build one building . down east . because of this Management Act I was telling you about. Twenty-three different were going to do. And uh ~gen cies very often times , those agencies have overlapping authorities and it's just a ree.1 INTERRUPTION: had to O. K. what they (inaudible) RECORDER TURNED OFF FOR A SHORT TIME �15 Q: O. K. , uh . we re talking about . you said that uh , you felt that we would need to somehow control the growth of the future . you know . have some kind of orderly growth. this should be done? A: How would you say Do you have any ideas about it? Well . I think you've got to have a , a pragmatic approach to it. I think you've got to take the interests of the , the farmer , the city-dweller , the environmentalist , and try to mesh those together and come up with a program for development that neither excludes any of them "s interests , nor gives uh , any one of them the right to just run roughshod over the others. and take situation. It's got to be a give And so , I would say that uh , the zoning should be approached with that in mind to where if a farmer needs to use his land in a way that's not entirely satisfactory with environmentalists that they understand his economic plight , and that each of them are, are made to uh , to work together on it . you see. Any time you have any particular interest group dominating the legislation you ' re going to have a biased approach to it and a , and a biased law coming out of it Q: to where I think it s no good to anybody. Well . who do you think would be able to get something like this together . uh , an organi zaton of all interests you know? It would have to be probably be started by somebody. A: Well . I think , ideally speaking from each sector , you see. you'd have representatives You'd have environmentalists , you'd have your real estate people , you ' d have your , your. farmers , you'd have your uh , townspeople , you know have a committee type situation where all views are , are at least discussed and , and represented. And , of course no legislation I guess is perfect. But I think �16 too many times legislation pertaining to zoning and what not comes out of a group that represents only one , one area you see . One a r ea of thought , whether . and , this has happened in uh, in terms of developers . Many places, developers themselves have gotten on the zoning boards , and have made laws that completely ignore the environmentalists arguments, you see . equally as bad . And that's Being a realtor , I think it's, it's more difficult for me to keep a , an unbiased opinion of it than if I were a, a state employee or something like that . a . a reasonable outlook on it But , but I try to, to keep and not let my personal interests uh . dominate my thinking to the point where it will work to the ~ disadvantage of other ueoule. Q: Uh . you also mentioned before that developers such as resort develoµers are sometimes different than companies like your own, and you were going to give us some examples of that . like that had ignored environmentalist's concerns , such as that . A: Well. I think in Florida , uh and Arizona are the most typical examples of of the unscruplous developer who goes into an area and simply for his economic benefit , striµs the land of all its vegetation, uh dries up the swamps, to where the , the uh , wildlife can't, can't live any longer , uh 1 goes into high-pressure sales just for simply for the matter of selling a lot and making a dollar. And I think those type people have caused much of the legislation to be passed which really is too stringent upon the average citizen , you see . Uh , and so I can see how the , these _1aws originated , but by the same token , they were passed almost entirely with these developers in mind . not with your average real estate developer . I think 1 by and large , your average develouer has the interests of the community at heart . �17 Q: By average, what do you mean? A: Yeah, the local developers in a given area. Local people? Now, you, you've got your exceptions, there are those people who don't care anything about the local people, the local community. Q: Well, do you mean uh, people like yourself who maybe have grown up around here or are you talking about the people that aren't concerned are the people that come in, say developers from, that don't know about the area? A: Yeah, people who care less I think are those who, who don't live here, or coming in from out of the area and say ·hey Boone, North Carolina has, has got a boom going, let's go down and buy a piece of land and cut it up into postage stamp size lots and sell it and move on, you see. Q: Have you, or do you know about any of them, those in this area? A: I don't know of any big concerns, uh, to speak of. I think that uh, that we've been spared a great deal of that in this area, whereas, in Florida and Arizona and places like that its more prevalent. We're not a quite big enough attraction to bring in people like that, your big swindler s , you know. Q: Uh, what part do politics and government play in mountain development? A: I don't know that politics plays much of a ny part. much inclined in a political vein. I'm not I try to keep up with, with politics in the paper and in the news and what not but I've never been associated with any political party. Also, in all the dealings that we've had in real estate I, I don't find government to be to be a factor, politics, either, As far as uh, governing much locally, I don't think politics has, has near the the influence it does in some other area~. In other words, if we have a Republican governor �- 18 or a Democratic governor, I don't think it makes any difference, locally. Now in terms of what influence the government has had uh, I think the greatest influence has come about in the last four or five years. You, You're running more and more into government regulations about everything, you know. You can't do that, you can't do that, you can't do that, and you can't do this, that sort of thing. So, this is what I'm concerned about that we don't have so many regulations that, that it stymies growth, Uh, the Utopia would be if there were enough regulations that we didn't have to evervhave, have uh, a bad development. But by the same token, if you had that type situation, it would be such a nightmare of paper work and permits and inspections and government agencies it would be almost impossible to work within that concept, you see. So, somewhere we need to strike a happy medium, do the best we can, with the least amount of red tape. Q: The next question, I think is another one just about your opinion, and uh, it's just that how, how many would you say real estate companies and developers in this area are local people like yourself that have grown up around here, that own the±r own businesses? A: Probably, there are probably twenty different agencies in this area, but I'm talking about in the Boone immediate area. there's probably Eix locals. ·1 And of those Now, by local I mean people who've been here before the, before the boom started. And then you've got several other people who have moved here and made this their permanent home. Uh, sort of semi-local, I guess you'd call it. And then you've got those people who came here strictly for the development that was taking place. with that you know. And there's nothing wrong Uh, back during, during the gold rush, people went to California because the gold rush was there. But, and some �19 of those people I ' think do as good a job in developing as those of us who've been here all our lives you see. good local developers, you've got b~d You've got local developers. got good developers who've moved in here from You've other ~places, and you've got bad developers. Q: What can local people do to control the orderly growth of development? Or what, if anything, have they been doing? Have the local people gotten together and tried to do something to control the growth as of yet? A: No, I don't think there's any concerted effor~ toward that yet. Uh, I think your, your best approach there is to work through your city council or county commissioners. of a group. Uh, go as a representative Don't go on an individual basis. Try to get a, a meeting of the minds, people have similar ideas to yours, and, and approach the, the right people with them. But, basically, I think, they've got to be reasonable ideas. If I were a city councilman, and someone came to me with a reasonable idea, a fair proposition, I would do my best to see that it was initiated. However, if they came to me strictly with a, a proposition that looked at their own interests, not the interests of the community at large, then I don't think I'd be inclined to help them. So, I think that we need to take our uh, our ideas to, to the local government agencies and officials but before we take them, make sure that they're not so biased in our favor, that it makes it impractical. �20 Q: Uh, one fellow that we interviewed made the comment that so many people are buying land now that uh, the land prices go up, therefore taxes on the land go up. And, uh, you know, if one just, if a person just has a steady income, how can he, that you know, does not go up, how can he cope with this? Would there be, do you see any change in that, or help for him? A: Not really, uh, that's an unfortunate fact of life I guess that taxes are gonna go up whether we use the land or whether it sits vacant. And, uh, I don't think locally, that's, that's been enough of a problem yet to cause anybody undue problems. Now, true, the county tax rate this year did almost double, the tax, the tax on your county property almost doubled over last year. But even at that doubled figure, it's considerably less than taxes in many places, you see. So, I think that this is a part of, a fact of life we're gonna have to live with, that if you want a lot of land you're gonna have to expect to pay increasing taxes uh, on that property. Which to some degree may be a good idea. It'll cause people to put their land into use, to make it productive, in terms of farm products or uh, developing it in terms of secondary homes or primary homes, instead of it just sitting vacant you know, and dormant. see. If nothing else, they could plant a tree farm on it, you There are thousands and thousands of acres of land in this area that have been non-productive for years and years simply because the taxes were so cheap the guy didn't have to make it productive. So, taxes are bad, nobody likes tham but I think it is necessary that we have taxes and uh, I can see a lot of benefits to be derived from it. END OF TAPE � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Young, Janice Efird, Jane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Templeton, Phil Interview Date 11/12/1975 Location The location of the interview. Boone, NC Number of pages 22 pages Date digitized 9/17/2014 File size 14.7MB Checksum alphanumeric code 0d8b019193d786f9ac93b39173165d99 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape332_PhilTempleton_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Phil Templeton [November 12, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Young, Janice Efird, Jane Templeton, Phil Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Real estate developers Rural development--North Carolina--Watauga County Rural development--North Carolina--Ashe County Templeton, Phil Description An account of the resource Phil Templeton, a real estate developer, talks about the development happening in High Country over his lifetime. He attributes the development to the growth of the university, the skiing industry, and tourism in general. He is a proponent of the development, even if it means the loss of traditional mountain culture, because it provides a higher standard of living for people. He says: "Utopia would be that everything would remain in its natural state and everyone could enjoy it, but that's not how it works." Boone Carolina Reality county tax mountain development mountain heritage Mountain Land Management Act mountain resorts permits Phil Templeton pollution laws railroad real estate Sierra Club West Jefferson zoning laws https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/43822d622d8bca0769c3c1f27d72ed79.pdf 837d5c49f4a22a3e203e9ecab578f57b PDF Text Text • OUTLINE Lorne R. Campbell Interview I. Beginning the New River Dam A. B. C. Sales pitch Public relations Enlargement of plans 1. 2. 3. 4. D. Opposition in Ashe, Alleghany and Grayson counties 1. 2. 3. II. People favored small project at first Interior Department proposal Curtis Bell favored project Approval by Sec. Udall Reasons for opposition Environmental Protection Act Real opposition in January '71 How Campbell became involved A. B. C. Crouse carried fight to Ervin and others Campbell/Crouse conference Upper New River Valley Association 1. 2. D. E. F. Formation Downfall Crouse's request for reorganization of UNRVA Reorganization of UNRVA Grayson County's opposition to project III. Reasons for fighting project IV. NEPA (National Environmental A. Objections filed by Campbell EIS polished up Environmental Impact Statement 1. 2. V. Act) Environmental Impact Statement filed 1. 2. B. Pro~ection Contents of EIS Certain aspects of EIS National Attention A. B. C. Chapter of Issac Walton League formed .American Rivers Association Audubon Society �VI. VII. Aspects of the dam Officials, Participants, and their input, contributions, opinions, etc. A. B. C. D. E.' F. G. VIII. Politics A. B. VIX. C. XI. XII. XIII. Power Co. made dam seem pleasing State support Problems with dam in NC. XVI. XVII. Franklin Realty Company Discovery of procedure for financing houses Appalachian Power Company land buying Noted observations of New River Festival Support groups A. B. XVIII. N.C. filed suit Utilities following same path as R.R. Investigation of Board of Directors of Power Co. A. B. XV. Power Co. unable to float bonds if allowed to proceed Would be using 3 kilowatts to create 2 kilowatts of power (for peak periods) No geological studies made of effects. Plans for nuclear reactors A. B. XIV. Appalachian Power Co. produces 33% of own coal mined by union miners United Mine Workers and APCo. favor strip mining Reasons for delay A. B. X. Donald Cook, President, American Electric Power Co. Coroso, Engineer of Power Co. Udal Wallace Carrol, Chief of NY Times Washington Bureau Ned Kenworthy, did environmental writing for NY Times Bill Moyer Madden, Congressman from Indiana Youth support University support Feelings of the people tewards the land �Tape #312 This is Janice Young working for the Appalachian Oral History Project. I'm interviewing Lorne R. Campbell at his home in Jefferson on August 2, 1975. Q: Okay Mr. Campbell, could you perhaps explain the purpose and just a little background about the New River Project and some of the controversies behind it? A: I'm an attorney and not versed in the technical reasons why they want the dam, excepting that it seemed at the time, when it was first proposed to the people in this area, that it was presented in such a way as to make it appear that the people who would be effected would be very, very selfish if they didn't share the possibilities of this river to produce hydroelectric power with the rest of the nation. They had a man who was in charge of the public relations who was one of the most skillful advocates of it that's ever been. In fact, he was so good that they took him out of here and put him in charge of the New York office. But when the sales pitch was completed, the supervisors of Grayson County and the officials of Grayson County and most of the people who were in the area all were in favor of a small project compared to this manstrosity. And there was very little . united opposition to it. Then after the power company thought they were going to get their license in a short time, the Interior Department, through one of their engineers, whose name escapes me for the moment, he proposed then that it would be a wonderful idea if they enlarged it, about triple its size and use the excess water as a system to be called upon from Charleston to flush out the lower Kanawha River and in and around Charleston, West Virginia. Which is so polluted there, that nothing can live in the waters of the Kanawha River there in above Charleston. At that time, Curtis Bell was field solicitor and attorney for the Interior Department. As a personal observation I considered him to be the most brilliant and fearsome lawyer that was involved in this Blue Ridge Project. Interior at that time was supporting �2 the, and was in favor of the Blue Ridge Project. The then Secretary Udall, without very careful study, he approved it and said it would be a wonderful thing. Curtis Bell stated that he had fifteen more years of service to the Interior Department and he was going to devote all of that time to cleaning up the Kanawha River. This seemed the most logical and best way to do it. I believe at that point that the attention of the general public, especially in Ashe, Alleghany, and Grayson County, started to crystallize in opposition to the project for the simple reason that we were being called upon to do something, which the power company and which the big industries in Charleston, West Virginia, wouldn't help themselves. It wasn't long then, several months of argument and one thing and another and about that time, Senator Muckie was proposing a bill which eventually came out as the National Environmental Protection Agency Act. In that act the Clause provided that no water should be used to dilute pollution. And that was the very purpose that they had proposed were defeated in that. to the Blue Ridge Project. So that is when the real opposition started And at that time, that was in January 1971, up until that time, there had been fragmented opposition, but no unification. You want some of the history, the background like this, this what you want? q: Yeah, yeah, that's right. A: Floyd Krause, an attorney and a very capable attorney in Sparta, North Carolina, was in declining health and he had carried the fight to Senator Sam Ervin and to all the other state and federal officials in the state of North Carolina. His health became very, very bad and he couldn't do it. I had been gone for about three or four years and returned and had some conferences with Floyd. The . Upper New River Valley Association had been formed to try to unify the opposition to the dam and, oh, it had fallen apart with no leadership in it. Then about two weeks before Floyd died, I met him just near the Sparta bridge, which is on the road from Independence to Sparta, and he told me that he was going �3 back to the hospital and that his chances were very slim . He asked me to continue to interest myself, to fight this dam, and suggested at that time that we organize the Upper New River Valley Association. I told him that all the attorneys that I had talked to in this area were all pro-dam. They'd all done title work for the power company or were retained or in some manner connected with the utilities and that none of them would take the time or make the effort to arouse the people's interest. I asked him then who I could trust, and he said he believed that Jim Todd was, who is cashier of the bank, Grayson National Bank in Independence, that he was someone I could trust. So I got with Jim Todd and we started to reorganize the Upper New River Valley Association. have meetings in Ashe, Alleghany and Grayson County. We started to Sometimes we've had five people, sometimes ten people, sometimes fifteen people. We met in schoolhouses, we met everywhere that we could get two or three more of the people to assemble. And we finally, after about a year of it • . . in the meantime all manner of other things were going one in the courts, you know. the FPC and everything in the world. We were filing opposition to We were filing briefs, the legal part was continuing, and I prevailed on the Commonwealth attorney to let me associate with him for the sole purpose of preparing briefs and filing things opposing the dam, am we finally got Grayson County t:o go on record saying that they opposed the Blue Ritlge Project. They are formally on record to that effect and are still of that opinion as of today. But they were kind of playing lip service to it, they had no, they're not taking aty active role in it. when I got the authority to act for the Gr~son It was the understanding County Board of Supervisors, which is the governing body of a county, that I would have to do it on a volunteer basis, I wouldn't get paid. I spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars of my own money and hundreds and thousands of hours, I guess. like the damn power company and I like this river. Paul Johnson or Donald Cook (laughter). Primarily because I don't (Laughter) And I don't like It's just as simple as that, I mean �4 it's not a vendetta or anything like that but it's just that I think their principles are wrong if they've got any. this country without any qualms. I think they'll bilk and destroy They are consummate liars, they're deceitful, they have made promises to me, they've made promises for the Commonwealth attorney, they've never kept or fulfilled a single one of them. We asked them about rehabilitating the people, relocating them, "Oh, yes we'll do that after the license is granted." That is the most ridiculous statement that a person . . . you know about how much rehabilitation, how much relocation, they won't pay a damn bit of attention and time you get through here and get up clear through Donald Cook, they'll never hear about it anymore. That was the answer we got everywhere we went, "after the dam, after we're licensed now, you.'.ve got to trust us." I don't trust any of them. (Phone rings) Well, after the NEPA went in, then the whole thing started to turn around then . They found out that instead of filing an environmental statement, the company filed one. Of all things in God's earth that you could imagine that would be stupid, Judge Levy, who then was the hearing administrator and is now administrative law judge, he permitted the power company to file the environmental impact statement. And we just beat the tables and shouted and carried on, but they wouldn't pay a damn bit of attention to us. had a hearing before the FPC. Then finally it went to the FPC, We filed our objections and everything else and when the FPC met, they sent it all back to Levy, "no that isn't complying with the law." The environmental statement shall be made by the staff of the FPC, not by the applicant, by the staff of the FPC. period of change. So then there went another Then all the Green county case came up and all of these other cases came up pinpoint spelling out what had to go in to the environmental impact statement. So the staff of the FPC then took the old statement, environmental statement of the power company, and just transposed it, polished it up, enlarged it and glamorized it a little. But it's still that the thread runs right through it of the power companies' environmental statement. �5 Q: What was this? A: I beg your pardon. Q: This, this statement, what was it? A: Which one? Q: The environmental impact . . . A: The environmental impact statement, have you not seen that? Q: I don't think so. A: I better bring you that but if you can't, it won't, unless you have the background What did it contain? of those statements, you really haven't got into what this whole thing is about. Are you familiar with what is supposed to be in the environmental impact statement? Q: No. A: Well this is . . . Q: . . . could you explain, you know. A: Yeah, this is what it's all about. Before a federal agency can come into a community and take property whether it's for a dam or a highway or, I'm involved now in fighting the National Recreational Area Project up in Jefferson National Forest. Before any government agency can take land, they have to have public meetings and public hearings. And at those public hearings the government or the agency has to tell the people the purposes for which their land is going to be taken, what is going to be here, what's going to be affected, what the flora and the fauna is going to be damaged. That's the whole jist of the thing. What's going to happen to the environment. Then that document, after it's filed by, as it should have been, by the staff of the FPC, that document is finalized, signed and filed. Then it's circulated through all the other agencies in the Federal government that could conceivably have any interest in it. fight out here, that's a navigable river. You see this river By a wierd case it was =decided in 1925, I believe it is, they concluded that any stream of water flowing into a stream of water that was navigable, it of itself was navigable. So this river �6 out here is as navigable a stream of water as a canal down on Norfolk. So this environmental impact statement had to be circulated which, well, it went through the Navy, you can't imagine how many damn agencies. required by law to file a comment. anything you could imagine. Each agency is Well they're just as void of prejudice as "We see no reason to object to this project." It's sent back, that's all that, then, oh, it's astonishing. damnedest thing you've ever read in your life. That's the There '.s a young girl named Ayers, her name also was Ayers from down in Wilkesboro, she was a student studying environmental law down in Georgia and she wrote me a letter and I sent her this stuff and she wrote, what do you call . . . thesis, her paper . . . Q: Thesis? A: Her thesis on this project. That is one of the finest pieces of writing that's come out of this whole thing . objections in the record. I have it, and I had it incorporated into our Well, going back now to what happened in Washington. Then after it was kicked back from the FPC for further review, it also provided in there that we should have the opportunity to cross examine all the persons who made statements that were incorporated in the environmental impact statement. For instance, if some engineer said that no particula~ damage is going to be done, that the area here was nonproductive and no farming, the ridges are too steep, and there's no productivity in the land, then we had a right to cross-examining that person. So he traipsed on back up to Washington again and they were all there and Levy, as soon as we'd ask a question, he would say, "that's all in the record, you can find it, it's in there." And that's the way he would, and he'd just stifle us and wouldn't let us cross-examine the witnesses. a motion to disqualify him. So then I filed The motion is, oddly enough, filed before the person whom you are seeking to disqualify. You have to file it before Judge Levy. Then he reads it and he says well I'm not going to disqualify myself. Then, oh _this is just the beginning, then you make the motion then of an appeal so that �7 appeal then goes to the FPC. disqualified. The FPC then rules on whether or not he should be Well that's just like asking the president of the bank whether or not his cashier's honest. Well, the FPC says, "Why, he's a wonderful man." He made a statement that Levy is familiar with his territory, had been here several times. When an administrator of law does a hearing, something like this river, they are cases that say that he cannot come here independently and observe this area, unless he notifies council who are opposing the project. the proponents. And also In other words, he's got to have both, the pros and the cons have to be with him when, he can't come make an independent observation of the Which is a dam good law. thing ~ Well -(laughter) it got so some of the things that then I argued that he was prejudice and dogmatic, arrogant, abrasive, abusive council and all these other things put in the record and I'm a very gentle and mild person in court and I didn't like to do these things but I did, had to get them in the record. Well, then a funny thing happened, after I did all this then, of course, the newspapers jumped on it. (laughter). Oh, they had an awful time with it The first time I met Judge Levy in New York, I mean in Washington, I walked out in the court room and he's coming up and I said, "Good morning Judge," and stuck out my hand and he said, "I don't know whether I should shake your hand or not after the way you've been talking about me." I thought we were professionals." I said, "Judge, He stopped a moment and looked and to his credit he sort of grinned and stuck his hand out and said, "I guess you're right," (Laughter) The whole theory of this, of the way the FPC conducts these hearings that, you've got to see this environmental impact statement. They have taken out of some encyclopedia, I'd say twenty-five to thirty-five pages of descriptive words about all the plants and the wildlife and everything in the world that grows and is native around here, with the Latin names and just copied it into the report, just boiler""P. lated it.. (There are) some things in there that I think are, as I recall, not native at all. They're indigenous to, I forgot where in the hell, up �8 in the Artie nearly. was no study made. But anyway, that is the type of thing they did. ~hat There is the very point that this man who was talking about - the way they ignored the archealogical studies and background and history of this river that this was a stream that was used by the Indians and by the early traders. It's the only North and South flowing stream and you can go from here to Pittsburg for that .DRtter and this was their route and very interesting enough, the crossing up here above, around Chestnut Hill and they went from here back out into Lebanon and Tazzel in that section. One of the last pitched battles between two major Indian tribes, the warriors crossed through this river and went down near Austinwille and went back up towards Tazzel, I can't think of the name of the little section over there, and that's where they had their Cherokee and the Sioux, I believe it was. But anyway it has tremendous interest and we have tried now for all these years to get national attention directed to this. Finally at one time it occurred to me to, if we could get a chapter of the Isaac Walton League formed here. so we could get some national attention. And (we) went ahead then and formed the New River Chapter of the Isaac Walton League. That started building up, generating interest and we got international publication. fine pieces, wonderful pictures. Get something We had some very We got the attention that we're looking for, then the American Rivers Association and the Audubon Society and all these other organizations. I've got, in my office I've got I guess four by six foot, five foot, stacks of all the letters, you just can't believe that all the helpful people are interested in this river. And mostly it's because, now, they have used the idea that this, the power that they will generate here is for peaking purposes. And by the time they could get this thing built, it would be as obsolete as buggy whips. Having that, the peaking power process. The reason they want it now, Appalachian power company, American Electric Power Company, �9 they practically own this river. From Boone down to the Golly bridge. What is the pass where the bridge fell down, that's the one I'm trying to, Point Pleasant, yeah, point down to Point Pleasant. it. They have twenty-one dams on the river. as their personal property. this is theirs. They practically own And they just consider this river They've exploited it for all these years and It's not economically feasible. It's not as feasible. It's not as a practical engineering thing, even their own people will tell you that. They had a engineer in Charleston, West Virginia, off the record, told me in Charleston, said this is by--this is the ~ost stupid plan we have ever had presented to us but it has come down from Donald Cook and we gonna implement the damn thing. Q: Now, who is Donald Cook; . . A: He's the general president, he's President of American Electrical Power Company. Outsider: Tell 'em about Donald. A: He's a very powerful man, he's a very brilliant man. President Johnson. And when back during the real He was a great friend of perio~ of need in Appalachia area, for relief and government help, they also came up with the idea if they could clean up the Kanawha River, they could provide 3600 additional jobs by having the name of the company, could expand its oper~tions down there and bring it back up to its hundred percent pollution again if they could get this additional water down there. So was the idea of putting their thousand more jobs available in the Charleston area. That germinated on their minds and Johnson had brought Cook down to Washington to ask him to become Secretary, or President rather, of United States Chamber of Commerce. And Cook told him that hell, that he had a better future with, this is all in the records, with the American Electric Power Company. And then he went back and when they started a plan to clean up the Kanawha River, Johnson called Cook again to Washington and said we've decided that your company is the one that should be given this job of �10 building a dam and flushing out the Kanawha River. That was the inception of the thing. This is back in 1962. Coroso, C-0-R-0-S-0, Coroso I think that was the name of the engineer, a very young man and brilliant, he's magnetic and very interesting and entertaining too. He is the one that came up with this plan to flood this vast area and flush out the Kanawha River. It's his baby. Then after tqat, after all that planning, Udall then retracted his statement, former Secretary of Interior, Udall, retracted his statement. He said after reflecting on it, he decided that it was the stupidest thing that he had ever done as Secretary of the Interior, was to okay the Blue Ridge Project. Of course that got national attention. Then that helped us some. Then by luck and by chance, Wallace Carroll> who had been editor, had been chief of the New York Times Washington Bureau, came down and took over the editor and publisher of the Winston-Salem Journal, and he knew Ned Kenworthy, who was at that time doing the environmental writing for the New York Times. And he asked Ned to come down. Well, Ned came down and stayed with us for a week, as did the chief of the Washington Bureau, he and his wife stayed here and Ned stayed here. We ran them up and down the river, I did but every nook and cranny of it and they really got sold on it. beautiful spot they have ever seen. in the area trained. They think it's the most And you'd think that we had the wildlife I'll swear, the first thing the woman saw was a pilerated woodpecker, is that what they call those things? Outsider: A: Pileated? Yeah (laughter) was the first thing she saw, she's been looking for one for ten years, you know. went on like that. That's the first thing she saw. (Laughter) Everything just And she was absolutely fasinated by everything. Well then Ned knew, Ned had been around and did some politicing with Johnson and Ned met Bill Moyer. He told Bill Moyer about it. we set up this thing to do the documentary. So Bill, he got in touch with me and That's the history of how these �11 different little things fitted together. Well we got Wallace Carroll, we got Ned Kenworthy, we got Bill Moyer, and we got Senator Helms and we got, of course, Sam Ervin's, (who's) been with us for a long time. And . . . Outsider: Mizell. A: Mizell was very, very active with it . • . but when Mizell started out, that's a rather odd thing. I couldn't get any response from anybody in North Carolina. They have done a one-hundred. END OF SIDE ONE A: • • . at the time. there does. He had about as much influence ±n Washington as my puppy He didn't have any, they wouldn't pay any attention to him. When he called up, he said that's none of your damn business, that's something connected with the, this is the truth now, actually what they told him. Interior Department told him none of your damn business, said we're running this, this is not in your baliwick. Outsider: A: This is our business. You mentioned Bill Moyer, is he the sometimes a guest editorialist for Newsweek? He's out in Aspen, Colorado, this summer attending a school out there and I got a letter from him this past month. But those people are the one's who, when they finally saw the project as it really is, each one then started reaching out in his sphere of influence. That's what finally got the national attention. I've got editorials from the St. Louis dispatch, the Chicago papers, Philadelphia papers, and just last week, my daughter in Penn State said that the school paper up there had a big long thing, had a quotation of mine in the thing, and she had just got back from Bermuda and said she felt like she was going to be a celebrity. All young kids . . . (laughter). But that's what can be done. And what is being done and what has been done, but when you get up to the threshold of the bureaucracy in Washington, it's all the frustrating you can't imagine how sickening �12 it is to find out how everything that you've ever believed in and trusted throughout your life in the form of our government, what can happen to it when those rascals get a hold of it. The most horrible thing in the world you could imagine is, what's the name of that congressman from Indiana? Outsider: Oh, that rascal. Q: Madden. A: Madden, yeah. Outsider: A: 1 Madden, Madden. He wouldn't report out his bill on the dunes. That's got absolutely nothing to do with this, of course, but it was in the committee that Roberts, not Roberts. Is it Roberts? Was the co-chairman of it. were just starting. But they hadn't finished it, they And of course it's a slow process, but we've gone all through that, Taylor's comittee. Outsider: A: Roy Taylor. Roy Taylor was sub-chairman of it. was just finally filtering through. But we had gone all through that. His bill And he said he wasn't going to do a damn thing about the Blue Ridge Project until Roy Taylor turned loose his Punes bill. Outsider: Janice, are you on tape? Lorne doesn't have a nephew that's attorney to the Federal Power Commission. A: Outsider: A: I don't know. Madden, I think he does. Probably does. But that's just one of the nauseating things you're into and the power that these men have is just unbelievable. The congressmen and the senators, they are so totally dependent upon their staff. Now a member of A's staff, to get something done, has to be scratching the back of Mr. Senator B's staff. So it's a, which is proper, it's a complete composite of compromise and I'll rub your back, you rub my back and then we'll get through and some how �13 or other bungle it, and that's . . • But it's no more responsive to the wishes of the people. For instance, over in Grayson County, Virginia, we're part of the fifth congressional district, ninth congressional district of Virginia. The congressman from over there I went to see. his father. I've known him for years, knew I knew his political background, know all about him, belongs to the same party as I do, e.verything. I went to see him. I'm gonna keep my hands off this thing." He said, "I was there at the inception and I'm not going to be there at the crucial moment. participate in the thing." I'm not g@ing to actively I.t went on a while, .a year or two, bang, all of a sudden, Bill Walker favors the Blue Ridge Project. Walker in Washington. He said, "Now LQrne, So I went up to see Bill Went back in his private offi.ce. and he said, "Lorne, I just migp t as well tell you this, but anything that Appalachian Power Company wants in my district, I'm gonna support." Outsider: Now . . . W.hat was his reason? Q: What, yeah, why is this. A: Because he. Outsider: A: The back scratching. For the £irst time, no, he for the first time was having unified opposition. New, about politics making strange bedfellows, lhited Nine Workers has been at logger heads with the Duke Power Compaf¥ and American Electric Power Company, Appal..achian Power Company for years and years and years. But the Appal.achian Power Company produces thirty-three percent of its own coal that it uses. That coal is mined by union miners. strip mining. The United Mine Workers are in favor of So they made you deal. we'll contribute to your campaign. Walker, if you'll favor strip mining, So that was the unholy alliance. United Mine Workers, Appalachian Power Company, and then the construction of unions. Well there's not a United Mine Worker to my knowledge lives in this whole damn basin. If he is, he's got, poor fellows got black lung. But that is the �14 representation that you have in Congress. When the bill was finally smothered in Congress and caine up for a vote, we had to pull it out of committee, which took a two-third vote which is killing committee. So we had to get two-thirds vote of the full Congress to get it out of the committee. impossible and we knew it. And we got the majority. Of course that was But what we wanted to do was at least get a majority. We got the majority of the Senate through Jim Ervin, and .we got the majority in the Congress in the ·House of Representatives. So a majority of Congress has, is opposing the Blue Ridge Project. Outsider: A: Lorne, tell about the North Carolina Legislature, unanimous. Again.st it. Yeah, the entire Legislature, both the Senate and the House in North Carolina and all public officials with republicans and democrats alike are all opposed to this project. Of course, they all look at it one way and say that North Carolina's being very, very selfish about it. It's a bad program. But that's not necessarily true. It's a bad thing from top to beginning. absolute rape of a river. It's just an When you look at it, the background of the history of this river, the very little we kn<M of the river and how much wonderful study could be done at this river and its relationship, not only to the development of this country . . . but this very, the most interesting article, when the glacier moved back, the effect of the Tease River that was originally drained this whole basin, the whole bit, flowed into the Mississippi. And then as it carved its way through West Virginia, and the the New River came unwound, that's the reason it winds around here, flows North and goes up ~~~~~~~~ Q: Well the re's so much opposition to it then, why, how many years has this been going on? A: Been, oh, about twelve. Q: And it's still not s~ttled so . • . A: It's a long way from being settled, yeah. �/ 15 Q: What are the major, you've talked about some of the reasons with the politics. Is that the major reason? A: You mean for the delay or for. Q: Yeah, for not being settled if there's so much opposition to it. A: Well, first of all, look (at) the inept ways the power company undertook to come in here and just bull right through. and just sweep all opposition aside. Just through like a big bullddzer You see, they're in a hell of a predi- cament here because they're already spent around thirteen million dollars buying land around here. They own a tremendo.us amount of land. That's money out of their pockets on which they're paying ten percent interest, which is a million three hundred· thousand dollars a year, you quickly figure out on interest alone that they have had tied up here for all these years on the bad advice they got from their council and from their engineers and everybody else. so damn sure that they's have the Federal Power Comn.ission. comprised the Federal E ower Connnission? That's who are on the FPC. They were just You know who For~r heads of utility companies. ·And now, as a little ploy, they're taking out the man who was the head of the p.ark system under the Department of Agriculture, which is with the Interior Department. Outsider: A: Second Outsider: Now they' .re putting him in the FPC. Outdoor Recreations. And it's t.mbelievable what goes on. Well that sounds like that they're taking this guy out of the parks system, that it would be for the Appalachian Power Companies advantage. A: Well that's what they're doing. That's why it's being done. Outsider: He was in charge of the outdoor recreation. Second Outsider: Right. A: Outsider: He's. . . Part of the Interior and he's been appointed as the ~~~~~~~~~~~- �16 A: Second Outsider: And he's in favor of the dam. Well then if this thing were to go through, the Appalachian Power Company would own the whole lake, wouldn't they, and that would give them the revenues off the land they sell and. . . A: Outsider: A: Oh ;. yeah. --------things like that. It's the American Electric Power Company by no stretch of the imagination is to be considered ---------institution. They're out to make money. That's as cold-blooded as a snake. And how they do it is no . . • if you have any doubts about that, you should go in the coal fields of West Virginia where they get the coal and where they get the raw power out of the earth. Back during the depression, the power companies always had money in credit. brought the land and the coal out then from the people. And they have They own West Virginia. American Electric Power Company, Duke Power Company, and North and Western Railroad. · They're all tied in. I don't know how to better express it than it's almost facism control, eorporate control of the state. years and years. It's been that way for It's completely dominated by the big utility companies, the Du Porc.s, American Electric Power Company, North and Western Railroad, C and O, L am N, all thesa tremendous, powerful. . . Outsider: A: Ane.rican Electric and Po~r Company is the biggest utility in the United States. T.here's m way in the world you can just. . . the pleasure you get out of figi_ting them is the same· pl.easure. you get out of runn:in.g and butting your head aga:in.st the wal.1. But you do get the inner satisfaction of makhg i t just as .difficult for them to accomplish. And now I honestly believe that dann thing is not feasible, economically or any other damn way. T.hey couldn't possibly, in my opinion, if they were told to start building this dam tomorrow, they couldn't float the bonds to build the damn thing. H.alf a billion dollars to, when they will �17 use three kilowatts to create two kilowatts of power because they'·ll have it at a peaking period. peaking power. Now in all probability, there is going to Be a change in this They'·re going to have to do it. In other words, they are going to have to adjust itself. England, you know, after the World War II, went through a period of austerity where there was a lot of self denial, not only by the poor people, who, the poor people win your war and the poor people pay the taxes, so the middle class and the upper middle class and the rich people can survive. But anyway, the austerity got so severe that even the nobility and the upper bureaucracy in England had to draw in their belts. I honestly believe that within the next five years, something of that nature is going to have to happen in America. They're going to have to bide not having this peaking power 'cause they've gonna have to level it off in to a constant flow so they won't have the surplus power. For instance, if you take an airplane, fly it now, up and down the east coast, you see these damn dust-to-dawn lights all over the eastern seaboard running. off. Nobody goes out there and cuts them Everyone you see out there is paying the power company three dollars and seventy-five cents a month to run that thing out there. Now that is taken float, dust-to-dawn is their low power demand comes around, I think it's seven thirty in the morning and one in the afternoon and five in the evening. the peak power Those are That's where this dam is here available much as a battery, storage battery. When these tremendous demands are made, whether it's made here or up in Ohio or out in Illinois or in New York or wherever it might be that is fed by the American Electric Power Company of any of it's allied grid connections. They have a breakdown up in Duquesne, they get the power from down here and this is here constant. motors to heat up. They don't have to wait for the They don't have to wait for the reactors to start. don'·t have to work for, wait for, a damn thing. It's right here. They It's instant. �18 It's ready. 'Cause hydroelectric, that's why they want that thing. they level off this pe~iod But if of peaking and the way the government is going to do it, Ford'•s fooling around with this gasoline bit now, put the gas so high that people won't use it, that's crazier than hell. That won't work. But they can make industry change its peaking power demands by taxing. And that's what-they'll do .it. now. That's what's really stalling the energy crisis They're programming it now, and that's directly connected with Blue Ridge Project here. And as soon as that abates, soon as that, they will come up with one or two different solutions. Either you're going to have (to) use the new system of some · nuclear fission system that . . . what do they call that, they say it's a breeding reactor, I can't think of the name of it. Out~i4er: A: Breeding reactor. The breeding reactor, so they're gonna use that for the peaking power instead of this. So, and there in the record it shows that this, in twenty years, will be obsolete. Outsider: A: That's what it is. Do you know that not a damn word in this. They're already obsolete. Do you know that in twenty years from now that, and there's nothing in the Environmental Impact Statement about this, they have got no record of the situation that's going to take place. There's nothing in this record to show the effect of the fogs that are bound to come by reason of this lake. close, every morn~ng Living as we do so here at, you almost have to feel your way out of this holler because of the heavy fog. Imagine what it's going to be like being so near to the crest of the Blue Ridge Mountains, that warm air coming over on to the big reservoir of 44,000 acres. Qc There's no study made of that. Were there no geological kind of studies made? A: . No, not a damn thrng. Outsiderc ~~~~~they refused Janice. They refused to do these things. �19 A: And then it means that we~re gonna have our road systems from the west end of this county going to Independence, are going to nave to go back µp in to the mountains and skirt at an elevation of about 300.0. feet to get in to Independence. Q: Would the power company not have to pay to have these roads redone? A: No, well the relocation of the roads is a matter that, now if you think, if you're naive enough to believe that the American Electric Power Company doesn't control the road building in Richmond, I don't know what class you need to go to. (Laughter) They control it. It's supposed to be that this is, in theory, what happened. The Appalachian Power Company's engineers sit down with the highway engineers and the Board of Connnissioners in North Carolina and the Board of Supervisors over here. They map out and rearrange the roads. Then a certain percentage of the cost of building, relocating those roads, will be payed by the power company. This is in balance, of course, by the highway, by the respective highway connnission. Q: Well, does the power company, that you know of, does it have any plans to start any kind of nuclear reactor since there's such a large body of water there? A: The only thing we know about that is Paul Johnson made the statement in Kingsport, Tennessee, to the effect that the Smith Mountain Lake down at Roanoke, a mistake they made there was not building it big enough. They couldn't put in a cooling system for a nuclear plant, and that the long range concept of the Blue Ridge Project was for a nuclear installation. After that was made, there were a dozen people made affidavits to the effect that that is what he said. makes a statement that he didn't say it. piece we did one night. a surmner at Outsider: A: Madis~n He denied it. Now he I ask him that point blank on the radio He denied it when I was at a seminar at College, and then another one at Sweet Briar. He denied it at Shatley Springs when I asked h:tm. And each time in front of the student body I posed the question to him. he'd say well I didn't say it 'cause I didn't make the statement. Each time I hated to do it �20 but I told them that I thought Paul Johnson was a very fine gentleman but I wouldn''t oel ±eve a damn word he said about the Blue Ridge Project. meant it. I wouldn ~ t. And I I would believe a . . . That's kind of a rambling way to tell you but the feeling now in this community ±s this, as I see it now. The idea that this lake was going to be a tremendous bonanza for these people is gone by the board. in. I mean, the reality of this thing is beginning to sink For instance, now you take a peninsula of land coming out, you just imagine this being the water and this peninsula of land coming out here that is not within the need of the power company for its purposes. The road at this time goes away around out here, another road comes down through the man's farm and the land's been taken. Now the cost of building a road down to him here is prohibited so the power company will buy that land. the land cheaper than it can build a road down there. to go up by him. It can buy So the road's going There'll just be no access to the . . . Do you know where the school is, Oakhill Academy? Is that it? to be sitting on a peninsula out here. Well, the Oakhill Academy is going It's going to be, now the highway goes right in front of the door and if this thing were built, it would be out in the peninsula, way the hell gone out here. They'd have to build seven miles of road to come back into the main road. And the power company went up there and told them that we will install a new water system. road built in there." "We will see you have that But the thing they didn't tell them was how in the devil they were ever going to get a doctor in there, in ease of an emergency. He'd have to come forty-three miles and seven miles, nearly fifty miles to get in to that now. Where as he could come from the hospital in Jefferson, hospital from Marion, the hospital at Sparta in thirty, forty minutes. And those are the things that you knew after the first b.lush, they are beginning to think about it and realize that we (~ere) going to have some of the most isolated . . . This Cox's Chapel over here, it's going to oe a little isolated community in North Carolina, �21 but it's Virginia, but it's going to be in North Carolina. maybe four or five acres stuck over there. tho~sand It's going to be No way in the world that the children over th~re can come to school in Virginta. They won't have any way to get here unless they go way up to Lancer and came through --~----- or go the other way, they have to go down to Balewo0d and come aroup.d, that way. Outsider: A: They're going to be so isolated there won't be any way in the world. They would gonna be cut off. Yeah, so, I mean those are things that, those hard realities are now beginning to be impressed on the people. Q: What were some of the things the power company was promising the people so that it seemed pleasing. A: Were they promising jobs or . . . Yeah, what they told them was that it would . be seven years building it and that they paid the highest wages and all that you know, and there would be a period of prosperity. I think one of the funny things that happened, I asked them, "What do you foresee after it's built and all the transient labor leaves. What are we going to have?" restaurants." (Laughter) Outsider: A: "Oh, he said, "you'll have filling stations, He stopped there and said, ''Well, barber shops, I guess." That's in the record. Barber shops are gotng out of business. That's just unbelievable. But that's in the record. Then the priceless line in the environmental, what was once bucolic will now be busy. line that's supposed to bring you to your feet. But you must reach that to get really an understanding of the concept of this project. a copy of it because itt.s most interesting. That's the final I'll see that you get It's a most concentrated form, the whole concept of this project is concentrated in that thing. 'Cause, see in it is our comments, our opposition to it, and we spell out and criticize and take in apart. all in there. Then the comments of the other agencies and everything else are Statements of the school board and the Board of Supervisors. �22 North Carolina '·s oppos·ition to it. Everything, all that is in it. And then Judge Levy paid just about as much attention to it as he would te those katydids out there. Q: What aoout the different states that are involved, are they working together on this? A: Not as closely as they~~~~~~~- For a long time Virginia was, or Grayson County, was just almost standing alone because of • . • in this section, because West Virginia saved our necks. Way back from 1968, '69, when they made a big drive and bought up all this land, the governor of West Virginia had received a letter from the Federal Power Commission, and he decided not to circulate it. They play rough politics in West Virginia. it in his desk drawer. to be granted. He took the letter and slid This is on Thursday and on Monday the license was going One of the secretaries found it and she was a member of the Isaac Walton League. They didn't expect them to get this letter but she thought it was going to be made public so when she saw what had happened, she snuck it out and gave it to the Isaac Walton League, got a chapter chairman up there. Levy got ahold of Ed Burlin who was head of the Conservation Council and General Council for the Isaac Walton League of America and the West Virginia Wildlife Association. On Monday morning at nine o'clock a brief, you see there's no opposition to this thing, on a Monday morning before ten o'clock or was it nine o'clock, they filed the brief that held it up. how close it was. Outsider: A: Outsider: Lorne, did you ever find out that girl's name? I wouldn't tell it if I knew it. Well, I never did find out. A: But she did it though. Q: Now what was in the letter? 1 asked and !never did find it out. That's �23 A: The letter from Q: Yeah. A: Well, app·i :oving the whole p-roj ect and giving him notice that on Monday the tb~ governor? project was going .to be l ~censed down opposition in West Virginia. and thanking him for his help and keeping ''Cause Virginia was just laying back and North Carolina was laying back and nobody was doing a damn thing. Then when that went in to it, I guess it probably . . • Irvin Berlin was the ablest of all the young environmental lawyers. At the time he was probably the smartest. Then a funny thing about this thing, Berlin filed these briefs and they were very, very capable briefs, very fine briefs, and that was opposing the pollution dilution theory and that stayed and stalled the thing and during that period when they had a back up and fight off, file the Environmental Impact Statement, all those things just falling one behind the other. But if we hadn't stopped it, I mean if it hadn't been stopped by West Virginia at that time, we'd have been under water here right now. That saved it. That one act. PART THREE A: Q: water damming up here and then it just flushed it out. Well, is that one of the main reasons why they still want this project today or is that. A: Well, you see now that was eliminated from this project by an amendment that was introduced by Mizzel. Now what I know and what anyone who thin~s about it a little while knows, is just as damn soon as they got this dam here they would repeal that amendment. That's ABC, that's elementary. because of the attention being focused on it. is off of the books and they cannot do it. It is as of the moment The pollution dilution theory But just as soon as they get the thing here,then who in the hell is going to take any interest in what the water is used for? They '·11 simply pass a lot of. �24 Q: Well, i:s th_at the reason. why th.ey still want the dam, l mean i f it is going to take three kil0watts of A: ~ower to produce. • . That is one of the, you see when they do that, then when they get that, they will get a sufisidy from the federal government. cost of operating everything. Which w±ll help towards the We went so far, I never had given up hope, I never thought it was going through but we met with the attorney general of Virginia and West Virginia and North Carolina in Roanoke, Virginia. And then after that meeting, we met with the attorney who prepared the compact or the pact, rather, between Nevada and California about Lake Tahoe Company which is the jointed administration of both states. And that attorney came down and we met with him in Richmond and the Governor appointed me on the committee and the Governor of North Carolina appointed Ed Adams. But we still weren't getting much attention, but we still weren't getting much from North Carolina at that time because they, the people up in Ashe and Alleghany hadn't began to fight. The governor didn't pay a bit of attention to it, and then when we got the compact outlined and ready to fund and anything else in case that they did come here. Because you see, there is a tremendous responsibility here. You'·ve got three counties involved, and you've got two states involved, you got the policing you have got the sanitary problems, you have got the zoning problems. Who's going to be responsible if someone starts dynamiting fish in North Carolina, vice-a-versa or something like that? We have got to police it and those things take months of preparation and we had started on the nucleus of the thing and that's how certain the officials in North Carolina was, I mean in Virginia, that this thing was going through. Q: What's holding it up now? A: Why? What is holding up the project at the moment? Q: Yeah. �25 A: Well, there is a sui:te filed and th.e suite filed by. the state of North Carolina in the fom:rth d±str:i:ct, and a suite fi:led in the Wash±ngton district to enjoin them because of tlles-e faila:i;es to comply with the NEPA is mainly the reason. And then attacking it on various other technical defects in the procedures that they have followed. They-'·ve b.een so high handed and so sure of themselves, that they just overreached themselves. You can't imagine . . Q: Lorne, the Appalachian credit rating has dropped tremendously. A: Oh, yeah. Q: And so that is a big factor. A: There was an article in a Business Week, I have it down in my office, of a biographical sketch of Cook. And a young man, like yourself, would read that and if it doesn't stir you to your core, there's something wrong with America because he is antipathetical to every damn principle and concept of a democracy. He's a complete dictator. Q: This is Donald Cook? A: Yeah, he, it is just incredible how arrogant. Q: Is he about ready to retire, Lorne? A: I beg your pardon.· Q: Isn't he about ready to retire? A: He retires this month. Q: He and his board can't get along right now can they? A: No, they are having a hell of a racket. No, next year. I talked to Ned Kenworthy about him and he said, of course he was very • . . He'd have to be, he is as intelligent as hell. But he is just a old predatory power baron just like the railroad. follow the same cycle. the ut±l±ti~s are ga~ng They all We went through it with the railroad before and now th.e same route. It won't be many years till the utilities will l}e leani'tlg on th.e gove1mment, just as the railroads are leaning on the government, tl'tat is the next cycle. Then as the oil, as our oil depeats ~ the oil �26 companies will then D:e leaning on the government, and all of the little rapists who have been in the o±l and all of the other exoti-c energy sources, they'·ll collapse, but tfiey are going to be retired in these beautiful mansions they have. Did you ever read anything about the L & N railFoad? directors, they have a you. The board of . . let me tell you something here (that) might interest I got interested in finding out what these electric homes that Appalachian Power Company has been advertising to build. They would loan the money and all of this, so I decided that I would investigate it down here at Blacksburg, VIP : They have an apattment complex down there, tremendous thiqg, tremendous investment. They have one at Pulaski, tremendous investment. in the hell the money came from. And I wondered, where So I found out that the attorney for American Eleetric Power Company is the Vice President of this holding company, called Franklin Realty Company, and the Franklin Company is wholly-owned subsidiary of the American Electric Power Company. borrow, how they get their money? Power Company's School Fund. Now, do you know where they They borrow it from the American Electric It is money that they have diverted and put. into a fund for scholarships so it will be tax free. And from that tax source, they are borrowing money to build all electric apartments. a shopping center out in Texas. I noticed that they have Their general council is vice president, the same old shell game that the railroads used. They would move two or three hundred miles out in the West and stop, this was as far as we're going. They get a little coDll!lunity started and go on another two or three hundred miles, got as far as Denver. end though. We can't cross the Rockies. No way in the world. This is the We 1 11 have to use these portages and all of this business to go across mountai'lls· and finally th.ey decided well, the government said, "We '·11 give you fifty. m~les· of land on the other side of these railroads all the way from Albuquerque S• t'l'ai-ght on d"wn through, across the pass go±ng into Needles and then to California." Robber barons, predators, and this is right here with us today. �27 Another leaneI? on th.e government. They ''re broke an<! I utilities· w:i:-11 go th_ same rol!-te e How on earth can they- pay- the interest, ruil convinced that the their bc;,nds are now eleven point , nine per cent inte,r est th.e y are having to pay. Now that doesn '·t mean that they· are having to pay. switch on a light, you are pay·ing the thing. It means everytime you This thirteen million dollars that was spent ouying up land here is a bad investment. changed. They got the law It used to oe that only an investment directly connected with the creation of energy could be used as a basis of competitional rates, so they put a little sentence in there and it says now that any investment for the present or future development of power may be included in the basic rate standard. So this thirteen million dollars that they have up here is already in the rate system. Q: Did this money come from the school fund too? A: No. This money come principally from the Franklin Realty Company. The holding own subsidiary. Q: We have heard or we have seen some of the houses that the power company has bought and there is nothing left now but the outside shell. A: (Laughter) Q: What would be the purpose in this? A: Well, most of that is vandalism. seen easily from the highway. They do not improve anything unless it can be And we have raised so much hell about them. They ouy them, you see they buy a piece of property, well there '·s two right up the road here. They buy them and then the man who owns the adjoining land, they let th±s go down and deteriorate and the weeds and the grass and the briars and every·th±ng grew up en th.at piece land. This reduces the value of his land. Who would want to ouy a piece of land next to a bramble briar patch? Q: Well, have you D:een conf~onted? �28 A: What l·s tbat? Q: Yeah. A: Oh yeaft, it has' been a,rguedl that'•s in the records as Levy would sar. used that argument, We have taken pictures. We have got pictures on file showing the houses that have been abandoned and preperty. up this creek. We have There is one right The>re''s an old, one of the most • . . belonged to a doctor, a beautiful old seven room house, right up this creek, beautiful place. barely standing up now, it is all grown over with weeds. It's The bridge going across the creek is torn down and it's worthless and then the land around it, where they tried to farm, of course, this reduces the value of it. Q: Well, what I was getting at was, have you been confronted by the power company to sell your land? A: This doesn't belong to me. Q: Oh. okay. A: This property has been sold, on it. I lease this. The ~~~~~--- easement rights have been sold Thing about the easements, (they) are worthless now. thing, another stupid thing they did. They bought easement on this property and it goes about . half way up that light pole. That means that when they flood it they give us six months notice and you get out if you can. actually belongs (to) the owner. That's one This house He can move it if he wants to. But the sea, the land and sea still belongs to the owner, so because they didn't dream when they got the -------easement the modified project. here that they were ever going to go into They just went pale, male, hell what ever. of this land acquisitioned, scaring people to death. bought the land and that they ~ re Told them that they had going to condemn it if they didn't sell it to them, and that ''s all th,e y would get, about pirates. Getting all Oh 1 Lord you have never heard, talking �2.9 on~e Q: What right will the. power company have A: Well now they' h:aYe to turn around and buy the sea of this. p'I'operty 1 all th.ey have is easement. Now then 1 that money they have spent for easement is wasted, just down the drain, every n±ckel. Outsider: it gets, :i::f :H does. get, its license? They have got to re~egotiate now. Lorne, Janice sa±d I could ask some questions if I wanted to. Would you like to comment on the Fest:i::val on the New? A: Outsider: A: I have heard coIIDI1ents from all the country about that. Every ·bit of it favorable. You won't there. One of the most interesting things !heard down at the circuit court here in Grayson County, someone made a remark down there and the judge said, "Well what was it like, the rest of these music festivals?" And this friend of mine said, "No," he said, "I didn't see any sign of drinking, I didn't see any vulgarity, everything was conducted as a family picnic, ' 1 that's the way he put it. · Out3ider: You were there, weren't you? Q: Yeah, yeah. A: I didn't hear a curse word all day. Outsider: A: Outsider: A: Outsider: A: Outsider: I was there. I was surprised too! I really was. And that was a lot of people to get together in a rural area. What do you think was there? Six thousand? I was guessing around five, or four or six. Five or six thousand? Yeah. The highway patrol told me that they didn ••t have a bumper hit, they didn't have one incident. do anything, The local r said, sh~riff 11 Well I have on incident of any·thing. A; Were there . . . •'In up there said you didn't need us. glad you were th.e re. l' Not one t We didn't l'hey- said they· didn't That • a good reco,rd. ·s By the way, di'd you know what Ken Heckly has been doing this summe-r? �Outsider: A: Huh? He ts· a congressman from West 'Y;Crgi:ni:a and he ;ts pa·r t of thi.s constituency on the New River up tl'tePe. He was a teacher in New York and he decided that he would go somewhere and Tun for Congress, and he heaTd so much about the conditions in the Appalachia area and West Virginia that he decided that he'd just come there and would relocate and run for Congress. So he came from New York, came down (to) a little town, I have forgotten the name and where it is now, up on the Kanawha River and stayed a couple of years and ran for Congress. And he just went from house to house, canvassed all through the district and to his ama?.ement and ame£.ement of all of the politicians up there, he was elected. My wife is just infatuated. I think she is really, I think she is really, she really thinks he is a marvel, and he is. He's unbelievable. This summer he decided that he didn't know enough about how this present economy was affecting people so he scheduled his, the month of August he worked a week as a waiter, and worked as a week as a field hand, worked a week in the coal mine, and worked a week at something else, and he was on television this morning. Ott: sider: A: Did you happen to see him? No, I didn't see him. · He said that was the way he was going to get acToss to the people. When he came down to, he was there at the festival, but he came down to Raleigh and he made one of the best talks down there that was made. But he is a very, very fine person. Outsider: A: Ot.tsider: Q: He did. "Keep your cottonpicking hands off of our river. 1' ('Laughte~ I'll never forget that, Well, what other kind of support do you have besides, like, d? you know any , conservationalists or anything like that. do you notice any youth groups, kind a. Well you have mentioned some, like �31 Yeah, that is one t~~ng t~~t interest that the A: y~ung has been very hearting especially to me, is the people fyave taken in just kind a, you know., they h_ ve a ~een th~ p:r:oject. The older people used to having their noses rubbed in the dirt so long they j us-t k;ind' a gave up. But this new awakening of the younger people and the interest they have taken in conserving what we have got here is never more clearly evident than it has been in the last few years on this project. I never dreamed that we would ever get any support from, well take Furman University. Dr. He came up with nearly 35, he and his group, a I'm so bad about names it's pitiful. Q: Peter Crogg. A: Dr. Peter Cragg, ·F urman University, he up with 35,0.QO names on a petition opposing this project, all solicited by the students at the University. They are the ones that went out and got them and talked to people. Now in VPI, Blacksburg, they have organized a service club down there and they have 28,000 signatures to a petition now at VIP. We have had scattered, not crystallized support from Appalachian University. How about State University and Wake Forest, three or four years ago a young man down there, head of the environmental study group, I went down and talked to them. wonderful help fo~ us and he happened to be a particula~ly They did some close friend of Congressman Martin from Charlotte, North Carolina, and he worked during the summer as an interim aide in Washington. He and I became quite close, the young man and myself, and through him we really made a disciple out of Cn~gressman Martin and then down at the University of North Carolina, we have several down there, several groups and o:r:ganizations· there, and a Koury down the'I"e f,s, th-e General Council for the North Carolina Association. He has got a group down 2..4 hours·, t~re and I imagine we could get That '•s· how· fas.t they can work. 25,a:oa letters in �32 Outsider: Janice, T want to ask one 'more question. one night and th~ ~e he asked me if r w-as ae-o~t could get, sixteen people up there on a little petition and th~y were for the Blue 'Ridge Project, he as.ked me if I could get some people agains.t it. A: Outsider: Lorne called roe from Washington, p.c., I just had, was it .36 hours? Yeah. Thirty-six hours l thinlt. sign that petition. I get over 3000 members, I mean to join. I mean to If I had a had another week T would have had ten thousand. And that went in to the Raleigh, it went into Hamilton Horton Winston. Sixteen against about three thousand wasn't it? A: Outsider: Yeah. And he called me, I didn't know where he called from, but he give me a call. The only thing I know, he and Ed Adams was in Washington, D.C. to call Ed Adams' wife, I calJ.ed Nancy and she didn't know. I think. She said I don't know. It's a hotel. operator and I said, give me the Mayflower, I want Ed Adams. all I know, just Ed Adams. f ingers). Outsider: A: She was with them I called Ed Adams' wife, she said they are in the Mayflower. I said, well where is that? A: Well, I tried I called the I said that is Boy, she put me through just like that (snaps Connect, it came right back didn't it? You know the a. Sixteen, and we had 3,000 in about 36 hours. It's the amount of energy that you want to put into it that -is what your results will be. There are some people I can go to today or tomorrow who will almost take up arms in defense of this river. a little lti:t carri:ed away-. river. You know, it is hard. Sometimes you get You get emotional and you get sentimental ab0ut a Well, i• one of the a-;rgument;s I was making ±n Waslli ngtcm :E told them n that i:n my opini on th'at unless you arouse the emotions of t he people, it was only through emoti onal ism and arousi ng the emotions of the people that we were �33 able to create eneugh to fight a war. str~ngth and rationalize about whether OF If we let everybody stay ho~e not they went to hell er Korea, Vietnam, or some damn place to get killed they would stay at hpme. But if you get their emotions sufficiently aroused, make them think that ±n going to be, come over here and get us. so~e strange way they are It doesn't 1llake any difference what kind of deception you use, as long as you get their emotiQns aroused. Get the flag and the apple pie and the mother loving and everything into them and they will go and that is the same holds true here . .. You just sit back and be a little bit cynical and smart about it. Hell, it is just a river. I don't want to, I live somewhere else. about it? Why should I spend my time? What the hell? We could move out, Why should I worry Why spend my money and effort? is soU£thing here, something bigger than all of us. But there Not that I am endowed with any special gifts or anything, but if you just sit down and talk to people they will see it very quickly. There is a lady down here, Mrs. Cox, lives down below Bridle Creek; her husband, the Superintendent of Education in Grayson County for forty some years, and she has a love of her property. Her husband's dead --and the land, not in a acquisitive way, not in that grasping sense. She has a sincere love of that land. to share it with you. She is perfectly willing You can go down and pitch camp on the side of her and she wouldn't care how long you stay there but she wants to be there because she loves that land. And she has a great big old dog and in Bill Moyer's film she is there and she tells her story. Just like last Thursday I was in federal court in Abbington and these three brothers, they all have been fighting and opposing the government get.ting their land up there. Well, these government attorneys iive in 'Rome and they have no sense of ownership, no sense of pride, no sense of possissiveness in belonging to the ea~th. They don't understand that, and these men are almost violent over the government coming up there. What the hell do they need my land for? My fatheT and mother are buried right �34 Th~ gove~nment up there. a~~ ,,nen c0me up here and they going to bury me up thei;e but they.',11 be some government men on the othe·r side. they talk. That is the way.. th.ey- feel. One of them had b-een shot over in the European tlteatei; of the war and the other one had fight.ing for tl\ei'I" home. of it and mayb~ That is the way ~een sh0t in the Philippines N'ow t .hey are going to came and make a damn park out no one will ever . go there. That is a mute question but what I am talking about is the love of the land that whether it is on top of that mountain or whether it is down here on this New River Valley. But the strange thing or what ever was that the government had no appreciation atall. They had a little cut and dry formula, how they would put a price on his - land. And then the argument that they are using to. Wi 1d talking about . . the most famous line of Oscar , I th :Ink it was end he t old him, he said he knew the price of everything but the value of nothing. And that is my feeling toward the American Power Company, they can put a price on anything, but they den 't know the value of it. I told the judge that their land to them, that soil was like black blood flowing through them. very An.d you will find that in a .people are ashamed to say things like that for some reason. They didl' t used to be, but of .late they think that it is old fashioned, they think that it is sentimentality, and they are afraid, they are afraid to say that they love the land. But you go down and talk to old Ellie Reeves who has got three hundred acres of land, that land was given to her great-greatgreat grandfather by a grant. '!bat land has be.e .n sold, she has never sold an :in ch of it off within the family. There has never been a mortgage on it. There has never been a dept against it. They have lived on it, farmed, prospere.d, and their sons are scattered all over. Air Force, Commander at Rig~ Randal~ One son was a colonel in the Air Base, came from r~ght down. this river here. off a piece of land right on up the river here and there had been about �3i I figured out one time th.at there were seven doe tors and I lye fo.rgotten how many · school teaehers and everything else in one generation, right up from here. Now when peo~le start talking about that they th.i nk, oh, they·'·re sentimental, that is all, that :f:s, not modern thinking. 1 t~e B ·ut That is old people will tell you, and now the funny thing is, it has come full circle now, a generation gap in there. that has gone by the board. Now the young people are the ones. There is But then the young people picked up the telephone over there and they called all of the high school students in this part, and W1 at was it? OU: sider: A: Sixty~ight per cent. Oh, gosh yeah. Sixty-eight percent were opposed to the dam. And then children out of families that were just violently in favor of it, they opposed it. So they have an appreciation and they realize that something has been taken away from them, or is going to be taken away from them, and that there hasn't been any exchange of ideas in the home because people are, they are too reserved to talk about it. They'll talk maybe about all kinds of other things that they used to do years ago but they don't talk about the very elementary things. It's that love of that little piece of land they live on. have. Freedom that they And I guess something has been taken away out of their lives. They see that and they are not going to let it happen. The entrepreneurs and the fast buck people, the contractors, the land speculators, the heavy equipment users, they all think they are going to get rich, they have heard of money being made lost down there. down~~~~~~~- We are tal~ing There has been a hell of a lot of money about an area heTe where the only recreational time would b,e pirob-ably- fotJr months out of the .year. And I'd say that all during the month of Augus.t and Septemb;er you won't be a'ble to see from one side of the lake to the other cnyway, because of fog. �36 Outsider: Janice, can I ask one more question? A: No! Q: (Laugh)_ A: Yeah, go afiead. Outsider: I want to ask you one more thing Lorne, and I think I know what your answer will be. When this thing first started, people thought very little about it because they didn't know much about it. opposition? What really started? What really started this great, shrewd I don't believe you call it opposition, what really started this dedication, we don't want this thing because~--~-- END OF TAPE A: Outsider: A: Outsider: This is what your ancestors- - - -No, there is a turn around . Oh, th~re certainly was. I think. At first everyone was "Okay, good, something new," and then it juse flipped didn't it? A: Then I think they saw it demonstrated two or three instances of people who have sold out, took the little bit of money that they got and it was gone and they had nothing. A man and his wife lived down the river, oh about thirty miles from here, and they are both on Social Security. ·They have a little garden, they have a cow and they have a couple of pigs, hogs. talked to them, this Spring in fact. And I stopped by and And they own about, I think eleven acres of land, or just something like that. But they are on the side of the r a ad where the mail comes by, and after I got to talking to them I asked, "Did the Appalachi,an Power Company try to buy it out?" "Yeah" "Six thousand dollars-" "Tha t sounds like a pretty good price. '' (Jus·t to see what he would say.) �37 "What could we do w::bth six thousand dollars? much les·s. buy.- any, land to l :hye on. We couldn't [tuy a trailor, We haye li-ved here all of our lives. Our children we:i:e rai'Sed and b,orn here. We want to liye here until we die." Now those are the people, and I can tell you instances the people b.egin to see them. Wl'lere people have sold out for twenty and thirty thousand dollars and went into town and built fifty, twenty-five thousand dollar homes. Took fifteen thousand dollars of the money and a ten thousand dollar mortgage, lost their jobs, couldn't make the payments and lost them. self-sustaining on their little farm they had. Where they were Those things, a couple of general, more knowledgeable understanding of what the hell was going to happen. I don't know whether any of this will be any good to you or not but I was giving you a background anyway. But there is so much of it, I will see that you get those tapes and I will see, but I want you to have a copy of the Environmental Impact Statement. Outsider: A: What is this You should have it. no~? Environmental Impact Statement, it was filed by the FPC. END OF INTERVIEW � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Young, Janice Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Campbell, Lorne R. Interview Date 8/2/1975 Location The location of the interview. Jefferson, NC Number of pages 39 pages Date digitized 9/17/2014 File size 24.8MB Checksum alphanumeric code e30aa253b6fe10d9736212957b1b6b15 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape312_LorneRCampbell_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lorne R. Campbell [August 2, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Young, Janice Campbell, Lorne R. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Campbell, Lorne R.--Interviews Blue Ridge Project Water resources development--New River Valley (N.C.-W. Va.) Environmentalism Appalachian Power Company Description An account of the resource Lorne Campbell discusses the battle to preserve the New River in Grayson County, Virginia, in the 1970s, by opposing the building of a dam. Blue Ridge Project Grayson County Va. Jefferson Lorne Campbell Lorne R. Campbell National Environmental Protection Agency Act New River New River Project https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9f48b49954b52c43cb73602febcad365.pdf d59c60b3fb713691e42b6d2806d37422 PDF Text Text Peggy Dotterer Interview This is J ane Efird with Marlene Deaton for the Appalachian Oral History Project , July 17 , 1975 . W ' re speaking with Mrs . Peggy Dotterer at her home in Hot Springs , e North Carolina . Q. I just want you to start telling us about the history of the Hot Springs and who first built the hotels around hre . A. Ah , this is history as I have gotten it from my family and my grandparents and ah, it is not authentic as far as dates nor bave I ever researched all this . These are just fond memories of a past era . And my life began in Hot Springs when I was , came back here when I was about ah , a little over two years old . first home here was in the old Hampton Cottage . time . And my And I lived there a very short My father was ill and my father died there .And my mother was the youngest daughter of the Rumbos . And so , I ah) my roots are pretty deep in Hot Springs from ah family ties and from the fact that I have lived here . And whenever I ' ve gone away from here , I have been irrevetably drawn back by what I can ' t t ell you exactly . So, I have seen it from partially the hey- day and I have also listened to glowing tales of days that came before my time on in to very sad to say , when we no longer can be classed as a tourist town of any kind . was the famous Mountain Fog Hotel . many people , summer after summer . And it was ah , still being visited by a great And it was the type of tourism that we no longer have . You came and you brought your trunk . was small . And you spent the summer . they do now , one night stands . close friends . And you came by railroad train when I Ah , you didn ' t move from place to place like And these people came so often that they became quite And the hotel now as I visualize it , from this standpoint , was a great big rambling ah , wooden structure a.r:rl the front road station . And the first hotel that I remember and it faced the rail- Because that was the center of arriving and leaving . And then , it had the two wings tbat went back and the middle was kind of a courtyard and on the back wing near the bay was the big ballroom and there were very gay activi ties there . D:l.ncing every night , orchestras brought in to be there all summer and the thing , one of the things tlB.t was featured besides the gay social life was the curative waters of the mineral springs . And those mineral springs are not looked upon now as they were then �2 but that was the era of the farm , when people were very eager to go to places of that nature and they believed greatly in , mm, the curative powers when they don ' t anymore . And then ah , I was twelve years old when the end of the hotel as a real thriving tourist business of that era which is a very beautiful memory to me . of what people did and what they were like in the life there. to an end by the beginning of W orld W I. ar And ah , that ah , was brought And my uncleJ by that time, was running it because my grandfather was quite elderly and he had divided the ownership of it . And he felt that there would certainly be no tourist business here and so he made a lease with the government for the German Prisoners to be interned here . And the most interesting part that stands out in my mind from them coming , they had a wonderful German band and it sat down on the lawn there and played all the gorgeous German music of the Blue I.anube and all the waltzes and Strauss W altzes . not only heard it from them but it echoed off of the mountains . And you And the officers were interned in , in the main hotel and the sailors ah , they were merchant marines who were taken . golf link . An They were interned across the road in what had been a part of the ah , that of course went on through the war and then when the war was over , it was an army hospital for a short time . have the real old fashioned ah , summer hotels . Rlt never , never again did we And it had been the heart of the town . And of course , there were future attempts for tourism here because we were on 25- 70 . And that for a time was the main road . And it was for a good many years . all the traffic from the mid- west through to Florida . It brought And we lBd ah , a season of winter people on their way down to Florida and on their way back . Bu~as were built , fewer and few people , fewer people came this way at all . And it ' s very sad really for me to have seen it go into the decline that it ' s in now . very definitely the last stroke was the opening of I- 40 . highways But , it And we tried very hard to ge1j, bring the roads through here , but it was a sort of a political deal with who we tried and they got I- 40 and it completely took , took the through traffic away from us . And even t he motel down there that was the motel of the town then ah , is now , it ' s grew but you don ' t see too many people there . And the ah , cafe that was ah , the best one that we had is now is a liquor store , an AB:: store . nice place , eating place there . That was a real And for a time we had no eating place and now we �3 have a sort of a one down town here which ah , doesn ' t stay open very regularly and isn ' t patronized much. And there is really no ah , r esemblance whatsoever t o this town as I lrn.ew it when I was growing up . rooted here and loved it very much. Tennessee . My And my family was always very ah , deep- And there was a very_close tie in with Greenville , f amily had come from there . Jr ., the president ' s son . Ah , one of my aunts married Andrew Johnson And the Greenville people patronized Hot Springs and for many years they drove a railroad train over here and had an annual picnic long after Hot Springs .l:ad faded away as being ah , a real tourist center . They still came and ah , had their picnic down in the old hotel grounds like they had always done . then that passed interval . It wasn ' t done anymore . And So I , I can ' t ah , I can ' t see that we have much hope for tourism as we have knownit , but there may come a time when this will be a sort of a retirement center . And about the only thing we have to off er now is very lovely soenery , ,very quiet atmosphere , and very nice all- year- round climate . Of course , we don ' t get terribly cold here and ah , our SUilllllers are just as nice with a very cool m ountain night . And yet just ah , when or who we will attract ah , enough of people to change the place drastically , I ' m not sure whather it will talce a long , long time or not . Q. And now can you think of anything that you ' d like to. W ell, ah , you said that you remember some fond stories that your grandparents and your parents told you . Could you start , you :Im.ow , tell ing us some of those about the ah , the old , the tourist business so long ago? A. Well , the tourist business long ago was just possibly , as I remember it , is m uch as stories passed onto me . I must say the greatest number of stories ever passed onto me were the things t hat went on during the civil war because that w growing up , that was still very vital in their minds . had happened a d t here I was The epis odes were things that are two stories of Civil W days . ar And one of them was that ah, my grandmother was living in a little cottage back upon the hill and my grandfather had gone off and he was on the Confederate side and so she was there with the children and she ah , the soldiers were coming . They were on the other side and we had trouble here apparently with what they call bushwackers , deserters anything . the mountains and they simply came in as marauders . They hid ~ut They weren ' t fighting for any in �4 cause. They were, it was just a good chance f or outlaws to express themselves . And so when she heard of them coming , she was really a very gallant lady , and she went out , got an old colored man to help her , and she went out and burned the bridge t hat led over to the hotel . Then , another story is , is when they were they came and they were taking everything they had and she had taken up the floor in the rarlor and had a horse in there that she loved very much . They were going to lead the horse away and she threw her arms around the horse's neck and the man went off with her hanging onto the horse for dear life . And so , the young officer on the Union side said · well , if the lady loves the horse that much , give it back to her . " So , she saved it . Then , this other story they used to tell was that there was a battle f ought down at the Hotel Grand . I guess you ' d call it a squirmish . And the ah , this young Union soldier was was killed and he was fatally wounded and he died in my grandmother ' s arms . They were out trying to help both sides . You were That was the way of war in those days . out killing, but you were you had a heart f or the other ~ide as people , human beings . And so , when he died in her arms , he had lovely golden sort of curls and she cut off some and sent them to his mother . And it was a life-long friendship by way of never meeting but writing back and forth t o each other always . And as far as as tourism was concerned , I think that this description that I have in this article is about the way it was and the way ah, the first way I remember it and I say in here in order to describe the life tl:at centered about the second hotel , we quote from a , of a , from an article written by one of the writers in that the Carolina used to publish. rom t:be pamphlet tl:a t I say although many came for the curative value of the water , many others of tbe South ' s elite came summer after summer to enjoy the gay social life and whether that would be gay social life today I ' m not sure but that was their type of gay social life . And I go on to say mountains has become famous and I can remember the thing that stands out in my mind , something that people loved then and I don ' t know whether they ' d love it now or not and that was t he amateur theatricals . W were al ways having ah , somebody getting up amateur e theatricals to be put on the stage of the ballroom and I can well , the thing I re- �5 member was a man sitting in a chair , ah, smoking his pipe and remembering his former sweetheart . And I can remember that I was with a sweetheart number; number 1 when I was about five years old. W walked out on the stage and stood there. e And of course, he lad what his memories were recited, in some kind of verse that had be en written local . And I can remember all these theatricals, sort of brought in a local picture of life around here . And they used to have people in the hotels that were called the entertainment and they not only ran t he hotel , but they felt responsible f or keeping t he guests very well entertained . And we did have horse- back riding and there were trails around here and there ' s an old road on the mountain back of the cabin I used to live in , that was called Dead Park Road . originallY, I remembered is wide enough for a buggy to go OL And and the people from the motel would be taken out buggy riding up on the mountain and ah , ah around the hotel there were things like ah i g watermelon cuttings where the where they would pick the watermelons in the garden dovm here , put them in a wagon and then the man would ride into the center and then we ' d have a watermelon cutting and all the guests would be there . gether thing . And so it was the type of entertainment t!at would bring the people torather than everybody going out like they do now and doing their -Own It was an era of ah, enjoying social activ planning social activities of rather a grandiose nature, I ' d say . many ideas like The Bapt~st people weren 't really sold over to too I can remember these beautiful evening dresses and they had the dresses had trains on them and there was a loop int~ d of, on the edge of· the dress and the ladies put these over their wrists and that lifts the train and then they waltzed and I was very small and used to sit on the back porch and and look - in at what was going on and I thought that was the most beautiful thing I ' d ever seen, all these ladies holding their running in t he fields with One of the young ladies just asked me if I knew ah could remember any.. of the ah sgrt· of famous people or famous ~ to~me mind is O' Henry , the author . people and the one that stands out in my And he had married a lady from Asheville and he �6 came down here on his second honeymoon because he ' d already been married before . And I remember , I don ' t know i f this is out of place, but I remember they served mint julips up at my house and there were quite a l arge crowd that came and participated in this event and so I got to see the real live O' Henry . And we had good friends that came but as f or really famous people, I ' m not sure that I can remember . Let me think i f I can remember anybody . W had a great many New Orlean ' s e people-the far south people because I guess t hey found this so delightful for summer . Q. You don ' t have to tell us about famous people but any certain people that you you know were good, just real good friends with or anything like that . A. You see , I was pretty young and ah , so my friends were some of the children down at the hotel and I missed that very much after there was no more hotel because that ' s where I f ound all my playmates . It ' s been s o many years ago I ' m not sure I can remember anybody by name particularly but I do remember the that people talked about later by the family. And they had , evidently , become close personal friends and they were mostly far south people and I wish I could could remember better , but you don ' t remember too well when you ' re my age . Q. Tell us about ah the first inn and then when the second one was built , and each of the owners - ah, how the ownership passed down through the generations . A. The f irst that made this part of the country famous was t he era of the drovers . Do you know anything about the drovers? W ell, ah , by way of the Buncombe turnpike which went through here , M adison County, through Hot Springs , they used to drive the there were pigs and turkeys and those were the two most famous things that you heard of being driven through down to Charleston , South Carolina , down t o the coast and probably in between . And inns were spotted all through Madison County because of the drovers and you see that was a profitable thing . they also had to provide feed for the animals . turkeys and pigs . The man stayed in the inn and I ' m sure they had cattle as well as And t he local farmers could sell the grain . So , I guess I would say that probably Madison County was as prosperous in the drovers era as it was , ha s ever been since . And the first inn that I ever heard of was run by the Neilsons . And I knew descendents of that fami l y w were G ho arretts and the one of the Garretts �7 that I knew real well was named William Neilson so, I ' m certain of the tie in there . And that was not on the present site of the present hotel , it was down the river a ways on the other side . And then the first hotel that I ever knew of here , whether it was built by the Pattons or bought by the Pattons , I ' m not certain because I ' ve seen it written both ways . And all of our history , even though it had been written down in late years , perhaps isn ' t absolutely authentic as to ownership , but we always seemed to be quite proud of the fact that the man who later became the Civil War governor of North Carolina , Governor Vance, was a clerk at our hotel . And the first hotel was the one that my grandfather bought and he bought it from the Pattons . And I never have known why but the deed says "the Pattons and Grand Master Rascal ," and what a grand master was I ' ve never known . So , the days when my grandfather first bought it was just prior to the Civil War and so after the Civil War was when its greatest development came . And then he came back after the Civil W and ar hotel and a resort of those days . the sta e coach line . South Carolina . , opened up the hotel as a resort So , his chief interest then was the hotel and And he ran a stagecoach from Greenville , Tennessee to Greenville , Of course, it didn ' t carry many passengers at one time and the most famous stories that have passed around the ·family about the stagecoach were that they didn't keep up the road very well and it was on the old Buncombe Turnpike which WBnt down by the river . It was full of great big boulders and they ' d have floods and nobody would fix up the road and it was pretty rough on the passengers and the stagecoach. And so , Grandfather mounted the stagecoach one day with an axe in his hand and he cut down the toll gate because he said he had paid enough tolls for them not to use any of it to fix up the road . So , then , there became an agreement whereby he kept up the road and didn ' t have to pay any toll. And his main interest was getting a railroad through here and it took a good many years to get it through Hot Springs . It came as far as W olf Creek , Tennessee and then they ' d have to come on from here by a horse-drawn vehicle . And it was very rough terrain we had that made it difficult to put a railroad all the way through here . But , about the late 18e0 1 s , and I have the exact date somewhere because somewhere I rave a letter that he wrote from Greenville , s .c. to my grandmother and he says that last night they got the railroad through which �8 means he ' d been to a meeting . And so, of course , it was the days of the railroad when people tourists moved by railroad that was my early childhood that was most impressive to me and I can remember looking out of the windows with my aunt and seeing how many people got off the afternoon train and the Negro porter would have the ,q ags up in the car and the people all came strolling down the main road under the trees to the hotel . It was a very long walk , but you might say they arrived by railroad and then by f oot . grea t deal . And that didn ' t last for much of my life , but it impressed me a And I spent a great deal of my lif'e around the hotel because my grand- parents lived there and of course it was wonderful for a child to be able to go into his grandfather ' s hotel dining room and eat whatever you wanted to . And we had a great long family table and this old Nigger man tl:nt we all called Uncle Simon waited on tables and Uncle Simon always went around behind us fussing about what we did and didn ' t eat . And so , but , all of this was way back in my early childhood and I didn ' t get very much of it before VAVI came along and that was the end of that . The present building t hat we have down that we have down here now the present brick building has never been used except temporarily as a small inn which was never. r.un very long by anybody and it ' s n ever been very successf ul . center came t o i ts end wi th WWI . To me, t he Hot Spr ings as a tourist It might have gone on a little while longer had the building not burned in t he 1920 1 s , but my thought is that it would have terminat ed anyway because lifestyles were changing • Automobiles were coming in and I n ever considered it at all the same t ype of tourist resort when the automobiles came and the boarding "houses and the motels . didn ' t even have bathrooms in them . Of course , t he f irst tourist cabins , they They were just little well , The firs t ones I remember , it was just a little log building , but suprisingly enough people traveled in those days and they weren ' t v ery particular about it and then of course , motels became j ust like expensive hotels . To give you a little of t he history of the place , now this i.s. not authentic history , this is as I got i t from my family . The Indians used to meet here to use the water . It was a meeting place of various tribes of Indians . And they were discovered , we ' ve a lways been told , and then the story is of t wo men , the scouts , who were watching �9 for the Indians and they were had gone on out around . a~ad to see if there were any Indians This was during the time when I guess they had squirmishes with Indians , and they discovered them near Hot Springs . But , it had been known , as far as I ' ve always been told , by the Indians long , long before that and I wouldn ' t doubt at all but what it had not been used by the Indians becau~ e even though they say now days that you can get in the bathtub and get just as much benefit , I ' ve always felt that mineral water of the type we !ave is really very superior . than Hot Springs , Arkansas . the hotel was going on . It was always rated even better W certainly saw some very interesting cures here when e I well remember a family friend that they lifted off the train on a stretcher and he took the baths and before he left at the end of that summer he danced in the ballroom . And he became a lifelong family friend and would come back and visit us even when there was no longer a hotel here . are curative values I can assure you . And so , there And my family , my mother and my aunt always felt that whatever you had , if you ' d just go down and take a bath and drink the mineral water there you ' d be fixed up fine and so the two things the things they emphasized then were the curative values and then they went in big for the type of entertainment that people liked then and enjoyed . The widows were not too terribly though they were much more so than they are now , but they developed a scheme by which in the month of February , I think from Christmas on , it was probably pretty slow . : You see , the fall was very lonely here . It would sort of linger along til perhaps November and I guess they didn ' t mind the slow season in there when they didn ' t have people . And then they ' d contacted some people in Akron , Ohio and rented them an entire wing of the hotel . filled it themselves with their friends . Thereby , they In February was mild then and the early winter was the part that was cold and so they used to help out that way . you would get picked up because April was quite a warm spring month . And by March So , I don ' t think they had to struggle through too many winter mont hs and then I imagine that they had a few people that came and went regularly such as the Drummins who used to go through the country the country store and they always had to put up some- where , And Hot Springs had a good m any boarding houses back in those days for people �10 that did not stay at the hotel . And right back of this house , right over there there ' s a famous old boarding house run by Lancefords . in the summertime even after the days of the hotels . accomodations all over town . then . And ah , it used to fill up And there were boarding house And Hot Springs doesn ' t look at all now what it looked So that main street ' s become acrossed with bridges of that was where people lived and the stores and the post offices and whatever other business buildings like the livery stable which every town had one then . t'ha railroad station when I was growing up . Ah , somewhere in my possessions and I ' m not sure where right now because things are kind of mixed up , I rave a little book that you just called a brochure that were mailed out and I would say the greatest advertisement was word of mouth and I think people became more familiar with a place because somebody went there that liked it . . \ Ah , because people didn ' t rave radios , t . v . s , and barely even newspaper advertisements . M ost advertising , I ' d say the greatest, by word of mouth . Ah , well , the efforts were made you see by the building of superior court here . And all along , through the year , as I described to you a little bit ago , in those days . there were Trat was And I remember we didn ' t have a lot of automobiles travelling here as early as they did other places because our roads weren ' t very good around here . I know when I learned to drive a car in 1925 there wasn ' t a paved road around here anywhere. The road over this mountain that you came over was practically single-laned and a dirt road and the first road I remember didn ' t even have It was just a dusty road . rock The dust maybe hid you in the summertime . So, the efforts have been here to encourage tourists , but the ah , things just haven ' t worked out . If we had maintained a steady tourist travel it wa.ild have certainly required ah, very good roads that we don 't have because when the railroad travel went out entirely at all. Ah , people moved only by automobiles , tourist travel . can understand what I thought it was . And you �11 No, I don ' t remember . Ah , of course, I was very young during the days of the hotel and it was all very glamorous to me and I thought it was lovely . And I ah, thought it was quite beautifully run because my grandfather ran it I guess . And it was a tie-in with the family and this house that we ' re sitting in right now was built by my grandfather in 1868 and it has been completely remodelled . But , you can look over there and see a picture of it as it was . And as it was, as I lived in it as a child and in fact until not too many years ago before it was remodelled like it is now . It was my grandfather ' s home . My mother was born here . And ah , it has never been, except for rented for a short period of ti.me a boarding house while the family lived in Asheville a little while during the days of southern company, the Civil W aftermath and it ' s always been mentioned ar by the family . It was never owned by anyone else . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Efird, Jane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Dotterer, Elizabeth Interview Date 7/17/1975 Location The location of the interview. Hot Springs, NC Number of pages 11 pages Date digitized 9/16/2014 File size 8.11MB Checksum alphanumeric code 8df455f77e2183ea64b8c3af6459e207 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape300_ElizabethDotterer_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Dotterer [July 17, 1975] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Efird, Jane Dotterer, Elizabeth Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Hot Springs (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Community life--North Carolina--Hot Springs--History--20th century--Anecdotes Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Dotterer talks about growing up in Hot Springs, North Carolina, where many tourists would come and stay over the summer. She explains: "It was the type of tourism we no longer have. You spent the entire summer." After the outbreak of WWII the nature of tourism changed. Dotterer reflects fondly on working at the hotels and spending time with the summer tourists. She explains that the opening of the I-40 highways had a big impact on tourism as well. Andrew Johnson Jr Asheville automobiles Buncombe Turnpike cars Civil War drovers Elizabeth Dotterer formal balls German band German prisoners Greenville Hampton Cottage Hot Springs hotel entertainment Hotel Grand Madison County N.C. Mountain Fog Hotel Native Americans railroad Tennessee tourist business https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d64cd610551e84347b37f6f1ba7e6a13.pdf b8c8f282d27abb9305cda32faf9cfed5 PDF Text Text This is an interview2with Carter Ruppard by Tommy Pursley for the Appalachian Oral History Project at Matney N. C. on June 10, 1974. Interviewer : Where was your mama and daddy born? Mr. Ruppard : In Irdell county . I forget the name of the town . That's been years ago. If my daddy had been living yet he would be a hundred and seven years old . He come to this country from I rdell county to Watauga. Interviewer : When did they move here? Mr. Puppard: My daddy was twenty-five years old when he moved to Watauga county. And raised thirteen children in the country. Interviewer: born? What were you in that thirteen? Were you one of the first ones Mr. Ruppard : No, no . Let's see. Andrew is the oldest, Laura, Ellen, James, Nanie, Daisie, Me, Maggie, Besty, Troy, Roy, Sherman, right on down the rotation. Interviewer : Were they all born f ight here? Mr. Ruppard: In Watauga County : Interviewer : So when your daddy moved here • . . . Mr . Ruppard: Right over here at Cove Creek, at Willow Dale. Interviewer: That's where he lived? Mr . Ruppard: here . Yes sir. Interviewer : Are all your brothers and sisters still living? He lived there eighteen years before he ever came up Mr. Ruppard : No sir . I just got two sisters a living. I got two brothers and a sister living besides myself . The rest are all dead . Interviewer: Do they still live around this area? Mr. Ruppard : Got two brothers that live up here at Blowing Rock; one sister lives over here this side of Banner Elk, Horse Bottom they call it. Interviewer : Why did your parents move to Watauga County? Mr. Ruppard : They just come from Irdell County to here, took up and raised here, right over at Cove Creek at Willow Dale. Interviewer : Did they have them a farl'l? �2 Mr . Ruppard: Rented~ They rented fro~ old man Thin Mast . , Dave Mast's daddy, Gharles Mas.t t:s daddy . Stay up there eighteen years till we come to tnis country up here. Been here about sixty-nine years, right here. What I was going to say about the little ridge up there where Troy and Roy live, up there this side of Illowing Rock, stayed up there eighteen years, butchered for Boone Fork Lumber Company when the band mill ran over here at Shull ' s Mill, then I came back here, home to the old place . Interviewer: You were born on Cove Creek right? Mr. Ruppard: Yes sir. Interviewer : How old were you when you moved away from there? Right up there above Willow Dale. Mr. Ruppard: I was just ten year old when we come from over there over here. I'm eighty-two years old . We been here some while . Interviewer: Did your brothers and sisters help with the farming? Mr . Ruppard: Oh yeah . I can remember very well nister when there were nine of us all big enough at home at one time to take a row of corn across the hill together . Went to the taole and filled the table as far as here over to mama . Lived better then than we can now . And it was every day business . Interviewer: Did you all raise most everything you needed on the farm? Mr. Ruppard : Yes sir . We hardly ever go to buy anything unless it would be a poke of flour once in a while. The rest of the stuff was all raised on the farm . People better get to doing it now to . Interviewer : Do you still raise a lot of your food right now? Mr . Ruppard : Everything mostly. Interviewer: Do you remember anything that happen when all thirteen of your brothers and sisters were living at home? Ruppard : I can remember everything from two years old up to now . Yessir. I stayed with my oldest brother that Has married . The first baby that vTas born I was two years old . They sent me back home and I could carry just half a gallon of water to his wife . I stayed with them nearly three weeks and when they sent me back home they bought me a pair a overhauls just like the ones I got on now . I've wore pretty much ever since. I can remember stuff back then just about as good as I can a month ago . It was daylight to dark work, carry a lantern up at night to tie up ( unintangible) and put it in stacks. People have to do it this day and tiwe they'd die in spite of everything. l~r . Interviewer: Do you think life was better then than it is now? �3 Mr. Ruppard: Well in a way . Interviewer: What ways was it better? Mr . Ruppard : We never had any of this back then . . . I can remember very well. I was ten year old when we lef t over there and come here . Been here ever since and up to that time you never heard of a sickness only one thing . An old one-eyed fellow lived over here at Matney and people would come from Cove Creek and come to him to get him to make medicine to cure Diptheria they call it . Now then there is all kinds of disease everywhere. Every kid that took Diptheria would come to old man Doc Hogsy right over here at Matney . They had to make medicine to cure that. You would hear tell of measles, mumps, something like that, but I mean anything like cancer, stuff that a way you never heard tell of it. Interviewer: When the doctor had to take care of people what did he charge and how did you pay him? Mr. Ruppard: Back when we were over there for eighteen years, there weren ' t two doctors in this country at that time, old man Doc Perry and Doc Fybes down on Cove Creek . If they went to see you years ago they went horseback riding. Interviewer : Mr. was the two Well how were the roads? Ruppard: Oh boy it was bad . Not a hard surface road heard tell of. It just out of one hole and into another one . They call you out to work enroads and you had to do it for free. They'd work you out two days every weeks. I worked this road here when free labor was working . Interviewer: Were the roads wide enough for wagons? Mr. Ruppard : Just about one way. You had to pick places ti pass. It wasn't like it is now where you could pass anywhere . A lot of places you would have to pick places to pass . I've hauled lumber from here to Elk Park and Cranberry on the dirt road, mud down through there. You be expecting to meet somebody and have to pass them with a load of lumber. It's all together different. Interviewer: Well you've talked about how hard you had to work, did you ever have time for games or anything like that . Mr. Ruppard: Lord dickens. place a going. It was daylight to dark, after dark to keep the Interviewer : You never got to go out and fool around with your friends? Mr. Ruppard: Very seldom did we get to' do the same thing as a vacation day . Interviewer: What did you do for entertainment? Mr. Ruppard: Like I tell you, hard work . That's what we got . �4 Interviewer: You didn't have get togethers? Mr. Ruppard: Only thing like that back then was in clearing new ground people would go in ... if we had a big new ground to clear here, the Binghams down here and Haurts and all of them would come in here and help us in our new ground and when we got ours ready to pile the logs and burn the brush we'd go on and help them get theirs ready. And while the men folks were doing that the women folks would have a quilting . . They sit around and quilt and get dinner. I fell on two old sled standards years ago and broke two ribs back there and just got so I could get out of the hospital with that and they swell up on me and it cuts my breath off every once in a while. I guess I took a team and logged more than anybody in this country that I know of now. Two big settings up in Jenkins, Kentucky, two big settings up at Garden Creek, 26 miles above Wilkesboro. We logged all over this country. Interviewer: What would you do leave home for a couple weeks? Mr. Ruppard: Yes sir. Interviewer: How was the pay then? Mr. Ruppard: It come slow. It come slow, Mister. I was talking to a fellar the other day about going up there to · Kentucky on that job, we destroyed and wasted more timber that if we had it back this day and time we could buy up a sight. Big chestnut logs and we'd just cut a twelve foot slice out of them to make our log losd out of and just leave the rest hardwood, poplar, and stuff and now old rotten wormy chestnut is way up yonder. We wasted more than people make this day and time. Interviewer: Besides logging and farming what other jobs have you worked at? Mr. Ruppard: That's about all I ever did, farmed, sawmilled, logged. Interviewer: Which work did you like the best? Mr. Ruppard: I just as soon get out and go to the mountains after a trail of logs as I would anything. Or work at a sawmill if every man does his part under a sawmill shed. I loved that pretty good. You couldn't find most of them that would do that. One would loaf on his work and that would make it harder on the rest of us under the shed. If everybody would carry his load, I'd just as soon work under a sawmill shed. Interviewer: Was Saturday and Sunday any different from the rest of the week? Mr. Ruppard: We'd work Saturday and take off on Sunday. Interviewer: What did you do on Sunday? Mr. Ruppard: Go to church and have a good time. Most of the time we had to work late Saturday night carrying out hay and tie up the stacks. It was hard business. �5 Interviewer: Did you go to church on Sunday and stay all day? Mr. Ruppard: No. We go until after the service and come back home. lay around or walk up to your neighbors. Interviewer : What kind of church did you go to? Mr. Ruppard : Baptist . We'd Everyone of us, the whole bunch was Baptist . Interviewer: What did you do when you started getting a little older about courting girls? M.r. Ruppard: going. We'd ask daddy if we could go out . Interviewer: Where would you go if you went? If he said no then you weren't Mr . Ruppard: Just go to her house. I was telling a fellow here the other n~ght • he. was· talking about drinking liquor . I said anybody can smell gas or 1 ~iquor quicker than I can they just might as well stay in bed. I don't fool with it and I never did . I had a pair of mares and I hooked them to a bug . .. I dated this girl nearly four years, stayed in a sawmill with her da~ly and hauled lumber through the \-?inter time with him ... we took a buggy ride down to Elk valley, down Elk Park and around on Sunday . And they was Advents; Seven Day Advents. We came hack from the ride and I hitched the mares as far as from here to the road from their house. Her daddy never would ask me to help him on Sunday . But when we drove up her daddy and grandpaw, an old man, was up in the hollar trying to finish stacking some hay. It looked like it was going to rain. Well this girl ' s name Fas l)aisie, but her daddy always called her son . Her sister's name was Blanche and he always called her Jack . He seen us walking up to tl\e house and hollared, ''hey Son." She said, "what do you want Papa?" He said, ''bring us a bucket of water up here . '·' We went out to this spring and carried them a bucket of water and he said, "Son, how about getting up there and finish stomping down that ' so-and-so'· hey . " He was an awful man to swear . That's the only thing I ever had against him. I said, "no, I ' 11 do it." I wasn't going to stand there and see her do it . Before I did it he said, ''Cart you never have took a drink and before you get up on that hay you got to take a drink. 1 ' Before I could say anything there he come around that haystack totin a gallon jug, holden the cork in his teeth and pouring it like he was pouring water. To satisfy him I took that jug and turned it up and took one swallow. I got the whole whiff of it as I . . .. I got up there and before we could finish that haystack, I had to hold to th~ top of that stack to keep from .. . . . I could see everything in twos, two of everything . And I noticed this girl sitting up there laughing at me. Yeah, she was tickled to death. I had to hold to that dogged pole up there to keep f rom falling off till we got that stack done . Then I had to go back down to the house. I had to go about from here to the woods up yonder to my horse and buggy. I remember very well trying to get my horses unhitched and a fellow come along that was courting one of my sisters, Walt Bennet, he was corning over here . Re got me in that buggy and brought me home, took my mares and turned them loose . The next thing I could remember, buddy, was right in that room, right in there, my mother was standing there trying to pour sweet milk down me . I could always blow an old French harp. �6 My paw, he was sittinr, there and he said, " son, let's .~ear you play some on your French harp. Be said that I said, "where's the dad-blame thing at.'~ rle gave me that French harp. Instead of holding it the way I was supposed to, I was blowing in the back of it. He said that I said, " I can't blow this dad-blamed thing." And I throwed it at him and bearly missed him in the face. So I count it that I been tight one time in my life. Then one other day we went to Johnson City. Feller up here, Lee Ward, went with us, cattleman. I bought me a calf. Coming on back ... Willie, my oldest boy, he lives down here by Ernie Tripplet, by Connie Yates out there. Lee says to Willie, "I want to p.sk yo u something. I want the truth and Willie I want you to tell me. Did you ever see your papa turn up anything to drink?" Willie says, " No sir, not in my life I ain't." Coming back outside of Johnson City there's a place Mister Lee can 't pass to save his life without stopping and ~etting him a pint. But when he does he says, "Mister Cart there ain't no use to offer it to you. You won't drink it." And he'll set it behind the seat. And I'll take an ~ oath anytime you want me to that I never saw a bottle turned up to Lee Ward's mouth while he was behind the steering wheel. Lee said, " I want to ask you again . Did you ever hear your daddy swear?" He says, "No, only when he was talking after somebody else and telling what they said." I brought that calf back ... Mister Lee says, 11 Mister Cart, before you put that calf on that rich cows milk you better give her something for the scaires. I've got the medicine." I said, "Mister Lee, I 'd just soon pay you as anybody." He got that old calf and took it over there to the barn. In the barn set an old Pepsi bottle with about that much clorox in it. He just pick that stuff up and poured it down that calf and that calf went about half way across tne yard there and just fell over. I said, ''looky there Mister Lee." He said, "Goddamn." I said, "there ain't no Goddamn to it. It's a dead calf." It just kick two or three kicks and it was dead right quick. He said, "what was in that bottle?" I said, "you had it poured down that calf so quick, I couldn't tell you." It was clorox Andrew had over there bleaching his Stallion's mane. He came out with his checkbook to write me the money for the calf. I said, "no Mister Lee. That money's worth advertising your doctoring. He said, "Cart, don't you ever tell anybody about this." Well if I'd promised the man that I wouldn't have told it then I'd not told it, but I never promised that I wouldn't. I swapped horses with him one time and he gave me fifty dollars to boot. He said, "I'll swap with you if you'll never tell anybody I booted you." I said, "that's the reason I want to swap with you Mister Lee; so I can tell everybody that I got a little boot in a horse swap.'' Well a little later on over here at the stock sells in Boone, we were all standing up on the bank watching the rotation. Right there about middle ways there layed a two year old that was just bearly milk broke. He was just a shaking. One of them, a fellow called on Mr. Fred Greene. Me and Lee were standing right together watching them run the cattle in there. One of the fellows said, "Fred here's one down the milkboard. He called on a fellow, Johnson, to get some ~oys and drag him out of the way so the other ones would quit runnin~ over him. He said, "I'll get him up from there directly. I'll give hirr. a dose of penicillin." I said, "Mister Taylor if you can't get him up Mister Lee here can." We had a lot of fun together. Interviewer: What did he intend to give the calf? Mr. Ruppard: He figured it was \Tater and he mixed this powder with it, but he �7 poured that clorox down that calf . That's what killed it . It just walked there and i t didn't kick three kicks. He just poured that powder in that Pepsi bottle . He never asked if it was water or coffee of liquor no~ nothing. Interviewer: Well the man that gave you the drink of liquor, did he make it? Mr. Ruppard : Oh, no sir. A fellow right down here this side of Elk Park bootlegged all the time. His daddy did up till he died then old Hoove Eller . .. old man Ben Eller, he made it and sold it all fiis life . After Ben died Hoove ran it, he sold it. Anybody wants a gallon of liquor they go down to Hoove Eller ' s . Me and his oldest brother, a crippled fellow, took a load of lumber over tp Elk Park, broke a wagon wheel down, didn't get to come back that nigpt . A fellow down there name Williams fixed our wagon wheel, and we slept with Uncle Ben in what he called his liquor house . There wasn ' t much roof to it, but it had a good floor and it was good and warm. Thomas and Ben made an agreement about something . Ben moved our bed where he had a lid there and he raised it up and reached down there and pulled up two gallons of liquor. That bo-x was sitting just as full of gallons and half gallons just _ pretty as you please . as We stayed there over night . Sometime during the night it come to snowing one of the prettiest snowa I believe I've ever seen. That always did me good too. It would snow and we could pull our logs easier. I bet you the next morning that snow three or four inches on us. Ben said Reese .. . he was laying over there behind. He was way bigger than me or Reese was . He said, "Reese. What do you want Mr. Boss . " He said, "Reese, it ' s time to start a fire . " He says, "OOOOOOH Mr . Boss." I can see .him just as plain as if he was here talking. Ben said, ''you coming out from be~ind there Reese?" "OOOOOOH Mr . Boss I don't believe I can." Be said, "I be dad-blamed if you don ' t." He picked a little of the cover up on on his arm and rolled all of that snow back on Reese . He said, "wait Mr. Boss . Wait Mr . Boss . I'm acoming." Two or three fellers had stayed there on the floor and you couldn ' t tell them from snow. Ben ran them up from there. Now this fellow I was telling you about, I courted his girl, he kept it regular, too, buddy. He kept his liguor . Interviewer: When did you get married? Mr. Ruppard: Oh, I was about 23 years old. She was 16 . What I was going to tell you about the liquor business now. Two fellows were shot over there at Foscoe on Christmas Day . That liquor came from down in a whole where we lived at Watauga Gap . Old man John Townsend, they claimed, could come nearer to making pure whiskey than anybody they knew of . Well from Saturday evening to Sunday night they kept the road full going down there. They'd go down there and spend theit money and go on back home . They never bothered a thing at our house except just passing back and forth . Two fellows, I forget their names, but they fished all the time. They were sitting up under a big oak tree and one said he wished he had some of them fried up, he loved to eat them . Well somebody said, "if you like fish so much why don't you eat them ~·a..; . He said, " by God I can." He caught one that was four or five inches long and he put it in his mouth and swallowed it. They'd had bet 25¢ and it cost him twenty-five dollars to operate to. get that fish out. He swallowed it alive. Well anyway, them same two fellows come up through there one day, had them a gallon a piece and started to come in the house. My daddy stopped'em . Said they weren ' t bringing that stuff in the house with all the youngins in there. They tried to come anyway and my daddy had to drag one of them out by his ankles. That was the only �8 trouble we had the whole time we lived there . But after that killing took place . .. my daddy knowed all four of ' em, worked with them. The high sheriff of the co~nty, Luther Farthing, Coe Perry, Ed Shipley, and old man, I forget his name; we d g~ne to b:d, mama and us children. We slept back in the bedroom and papa slept in here in front of the fireplace. I wasn\t asleep and somebody knocked on the door . Dad said, "come in . " · If he hadn't ask where I was at I wouldn 't have cared so much. Sheriff said, .. he called my daddy grandpa all the time . .. he said, " Grandpa, where is Carter a:t?" I got up and came in there and we sat there and talked to eleven o'clock . Finally he turned around to me and said, •:carter I want to tell you my business." I said, "What's that Sheriff? What have I done or is it something I ain't done . " He said, "no, I brought these three men with me for you to be swore in here as deputy sheriff if it won't be too much trouble for you . " I said, ,. Thank you Sheriff. That's as nice as can be t. asked of anybody . I been here thirteen years and I can't do enough to get people to stop going down there let alone being a target propped up out there to be shot at . " I went on back to bed. He finally deputized one of my brothers, Coy, to help him catch one of Dave Chirley's boys . They was making liquor up in the hollar up there . Bill Whiter's boy, Paul ~'hiter, ¥as up at Blowing Rock courting. About your size for the world and not a finer hoy on the Blue Ridge . He had to pass here and on up through Dave's where they was making the liquor . He come ridinf through in a buggy and they hollared halt at him and didn ' t hear them. They was laying out there on a stack out, Coy and the Sheriff . Coy shot the boy right through the arm there as purty as you please . Talk about somebody giving up their job in a hurry, now Coy did . I never had a run in with the law. I ' ve been in court one time and the judge scared me, I could _ haye_ gone out the top of that building . I went up there and I was a butcher for the Boone Fork Lumber Company while the ban mill was running . I had two sheep to kill and a beef to kill every week. Old man Judge Wagner was the man to pay me, giving me three dollars a day . Now this is the way it went . He went down to Ed Shipley I was telling you about and he give him twenty-five dollars a ewe, a hundred head of ewe. He brought 'em up there and had a divided field with fifty on one side and fifty on the other side . Right here was a white spring and an apple tree stood over there where I had my block hung for butchering. My orders were to kill the two best out of the left hand side of the field until they was used up before I was to kill any on the right hand side . They had jerseys, gernseys, holsteins, all kinds in there . I had an old collie dog, if I had it now I wouldn ' t take five hundred dollars for it. I clip his ears and cut off his tail and =I betcha he weighed 125 pounds. People would come to see that dog catch a sheep. I get my block hung, then I pick out the best one in the bunch and I'd hit that one on the back with a peice of bark of a stick and I ' d say get her Red . No matter hiw many times he ' d chase the sheep around the herd when he finally got it seperated he would get it by the legs and drag it to me . Well that morning my daddy was up there with me and he said, "look coming up the hill." There wasn ' t a road to get up there and a bunch of people from the lumber company were coming up the hill . They got up there and the boss says, •:son which one you gonna give us today?" I said I hadn ' t had time to look them over yet. · Hell the ones on the left side were all nasty looking and had what I call snot-slinkings coming out thear mouth and nose . He picks one out of that bunch and says to kill it and not to kill another one till he sends me word. The next day I was down by the sawmill and Mr . Jud Wagner come up riding a great big old horse and he said, "Hey Mr. Ruppard you back fron killing sheep already?" I said, "No, I ain't killed no sheep and back already." He said, "Well ain ' t the day sheep day . " I said, "No, ' �9 today ain't sheep day . Mr . Richard told me Tuesday morning to kill that one and not to kill any more till he sent me word . " He got mad said he was gonna tell them all off . He swore tnar he rode that horse up to where they was and cussed them all out. I know he was l y ing' cause if he ' d rode that horse up there he would have nad to ride it across two train trussels and there's no way he could have done tnat . Thursday week here comes the deputy sheriff and sentence my daddy and me to Boone to go to court . What it was, the company was sueing Ed Shipley f or putting diseased sneep off on 'em . Jud was sueing Ed Shipley for putting then off on him . Well, they called the case and they said, "tell us your ousiness up there with them sheep . And I told him I was the butcher for the Boone Fork Lumber Company. I told, I had had orders to kill two sheep a week and a beef . I was supposed to take the best two out of the left hand side. The judge was sitting up there behind me and he said, "look around here son." Buddy I could ' 9- went out the top of that court house . He said , "what do you mean the two best out of the left hand side?" And told him the right hand side had more snotty noses and nasty behinds and germy sheep . You know from that day till this they never did settle that unless they compromised some how. Tnis fellow I was telling you about natl this old leather saddle. Nice saddle. I had one . Anyway he was a big old fat fellow and he had that open end saddle on that big old horse he was riding. There was this woman that lived up above us, she could plow as good as any man ever could. She could take a team of horses and handle them better than a man . Well old Ben went up to her house on that big horse and while he was there , she turned that saddle around on his horse and you know he rode that horse all the way back down there to Foscoe before he turned that saddle around, nearly ten miles . You should have seen that fellow . He was sore and black and blue up under there where he ' d rode that saddle backwards all that way . Yeah . We had our ups and downs; ups and downs . Interviewer: Did you get to go to school very much? Mr. Ruppard: I never got to go to school over two months in my life. I was talking to a feller the other day . His daddy was the only teacher I ever went to. He smite me . He hit me . He was a little feller . . . Ralph Wilson's daddy, Frank Wilson, alittle fellow . Rignt there at Willow Dale where I'm telling you, right over there a little farther. There was an old well there, That ' s the reason they built the st:hool there. They cleaned that well out a little later and you'd be surprised at the old dead dogs and cats and chickens and things they got out of that old well . Right on above now us boys had us a swimming hole. It was long as from here that old building up yonder and it was about ten or twelve feet deep. About middle ways there was an old apple tree limb sticking out over the water. And we were playing 'mad dog ' we called it. \{ e were always playing that, us boys . I could run then . The person that was it would say, " innie minnie miny moe, catch a guinie by the toe," then you would light out after them. I had caught all of them except for one boy . He went up that apple tree and I went up after him . He started out on that limb and I was right behind him. Well he got out there and I started shaking the limb . Ee fell in the swimming hole and nearly drowned. I ended up having to jump in there and pull him out. Well there was this girl up there watching and she says she ' s going to tell the teacher . I lite out after her to make sure she tells �10 the truth. Well she told him and he sends me to get a switch. You needn'.t come back with one with just one switch on it, it had to have two switches on it. He switched me, boy he switched me. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Pursley, Tommy Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Rupard, Carter Interview Date 6/17/1974 Location The location of the interview. Boone, NC Number of pages 10 pages Date digitized 9/16/2014 File size 7.54MB Checksum alphanumeric code 9452ab507801e9bf1d4f158da784e47a Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape292_CarterRupard_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carter Rupard [June 17, 1974] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pursley, Tommy Rupard, Carter Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County Logging--North Carolina Sawmill workers--North Carolina--Watauga County Rupard, Carter Description An account of the resource Carter Rupard talks about growing up on a farm in Cove Creek with his many siblings. He says that they "lived better than we can now" and that "we hardly ever went to buy anything unless it would be a poke of flour ever once in awhile." His family was totally self-sufficient with their farm, and they had to work very hard every day of the week. Banner Elk Blowing Rock Boone Fork Lumber Company butcher Carter Rupard courting Cove Creek Doctor Fybes Doctor Perry farming Irdell County Johnson City Judge Wagner liquor business logging Matney North Carolina sawmill Shull's Mill Watauga County N.C. https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1fbd66f7d563f355b9b46038529a8345.pdf 8abd80a56901f7962cea6994bab58322 PDF Text Text Ti1is is an interview with Hrs. Jennie Horton of Boone, North Carolina, done for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Mabel L. Brooks. Mrs. Horton: My name is Jennie Horton. I'm sixty-seven years old. I'm retired. I used to cook, mostly I have always cooked. I worked pretty hard in my younger days. I worked in Monroe, 11ichigan seven, six years, I left there and worked in Pennsylvania up in the Pokenoles for four years. And when I worked up there, I was working with my son-in-law, and that work was a little too heavy for me so I quit and got a lighter job at a camp where they have young people come in on week-ends. And I stayed there six years . And then it was time for me to retire, so I came back home. This i s my home, Boone. I signed up for social security. Then I worked four years down here at the hospital, down here at Watauga, I got arthritis and that really threw me, so I haven't worked anywhere in three years. I have two children, a boy and a girl. My son is married and he lives here on 8 North Street. My daughter lives in Strausburg, Pennsylvania. Interviewer: Could you tell us about life during the depression and how you made a living? Mrs. Horton: My children were small then. I worked at a hotel. I didn't make very much, we didn't make very much in those days. We got b~, but it was close and very hard. I ah1ays had a garden. I had a pretty good little garden, and I would can different things that I could get, and what I could buy. Interviewer: What food was most scarce at the time? Like now we are having a beef shortage . What was in shortage during the depression? Mrs. Horton: Just about everything. I tell you, seems like I don't recall, any beef being in shortage, just meat. Just pork meat. Sugar, it was rationed also flour and coffee, and stuff like that, just about everything. You could only get a certain amount. Interviewer: Was it per week or per month or what? Mrs. Horton: Per week. And I sold, let me see what else . I believe thats all. Most of the food was rationed. They ~ allowed you to have so much a week. I don't remember about the beef, I guess it was too, but ... you had such a little money to buy things like that. If ~e could really do without it we would. Interviewer: My grandparents said they couldn't get much meat so they had to eat horse meat on the table. Mrs. Tiorton: Oh there wasn't anything like that here. Two, Three months ago, I heard some say they have been eating horse meat. And you know I said if it ever comes here t6 North Carolina especially here in Boone, I'll never but it. I'll never eat it. Cause if you read the Bible you aren't going to find where Christ ate horse meat, nor any of his Disciples, why should I eat it? When it gets down that low, I just hope the Lord will take me on out of the way . Horse meat? Uggh. �2 Interviewer : Well Y.rs . Horton could you tell us about getting medicines and visiting the doctors and things? Mrs . Horton: Well it seems like it wasn ' t too hard to get a doctor. Seems like there weren't as many prescriptions filled. They didn't write you prescriptions as quickly as they do now for medication . But mostly, if you weren't too awfullu sick, just with a cold and had to have something like that , the doctor generally gave you a medication, something you didn't do yourself. Interviewer : Were home remedies more of usage then? Mrs. Horton: Yeah, home remedies were pretty useful then. " ~ Interviewer : What do you think works best, home remedies, or that you recieve from the doctors? Mrs. Eorton : I don't know. Sometimes that old time stuff is pretty good, yes it is. It really is. Of course the doctors make light of it and all . I have heard in my younger days where people would have pneumonia fever and they ' d make onion polysis and put on the patient, and give them some kind of tea, and it would break up the fever. If you put onion polysis on you, on somebody now, I guess the doctor would throw you out of the house . Interviewer: You said you had a garden before, what kind of tools did you use? Mrs . Horton: I had hoes, shovels, madigans, what I got now . I raked in the garden last year . This summer I had a pretty good garden, but last year, I didn't do any good. I was on crutches with my knees. I had arthritis so bad and I was on crutches just about all summer last summer, but by the help of the Lord, I got better and I put out a pretty good little garden this year . I think I raised enough potatoes to do me all winter. And I raised corn and beans . I canned corn and I canned beans.. I canned tomatoes , and I canned apples and I made apple jelly . When your mother was Interviewer: Sounds like you ' re pretty well stocked. raising her garden, can you remember any methods that she used that you don ' t have to use today? Mrs . Horton: No, I don't . I was born and raised on a farm. My father farmed and there ' s not much difference now . The only difference in it now and back then, people would have to use a horse and a plow . But now they can take one of these little tillers and go through and maybe dig a few weeds out and you've got your stuff made. But then they would have to have a horse and a small plow, a one horse plow and plow through the rows . But all of thats done away with now. You just get you a tiller and go on through and plow up your garden without horses . And we had cows, we had chickens, my daddy raised p.igs, raised hogs and we got along pretty good . Money wasn't plentiful, but we did have plenty to eat. Interviewer: Would you think that your family got along better than some of the other families durinE this time? �3 Mrs . Horton: Well yes I do because now-a-days my grandchildren, they have two and three pairs of shoes, which we didn ' t get but one pair of shoes a year when we were growing up . Now my little grand- daughter, she ' s got two or three pairs of shoes . Hy nieces little daughter ' s has two or three pair . I say if you all had to survive what I came through, I say you'll be thankful that you have just what you have . Ilut I don ' t know, they still aren't satisfied . Interviewer: I guess people had to make a lot of their clothes and things? Mrs . Horton : Yes, way Interviewer : Did you ever have to go to the grits mill? back then they did . Mrs . Horton: Yes, I went to the mill. We ' d take wheat to the ~ill and get it ground into flour . And we ' d take corn and get it ground into meal . I couldn't carry but a peck or about a half a bushel. It wasn't too far from where we lived, where we took our meal to. But the mill we took our flour to was about four miles from our home . Interviewer: Did you have to walk? Mrs. Horton : Yes pretty much, and that ' s a long way. But generally, my father would always get our neighbors. they had a team of ~ules and when they would go to the mill, they would all go in and go together . That made it a little easier. Interviewer : Do you know any little funny acts or incidents that happened on the way to the mill? Mrs . Horton: No, I don ' t know any. Interviewer : What about the educational situation? Mrs. Horton : Among the children, there . weren ' t but two of us that went to school. There weren't but three of us . We had to walk three miles going and three miles coming. Six miles a day to school . Interviewer: Were the whites and blacks going to school together7 Mrs. Horton: No. Interviewer : this time? Was there a lot of tension between the whites and blacks during No way . ~ . Mrs . Horton: Not a bit . I ' ve been here in Boone . I ' ve been living in Boone . I was born and raised in Tennessee, but ~y mother and father moved here about forty or fifty years ago and I never heard anything about segregation till I came to Boone, North Carolina , that's the truth . We didn't go to school together nor to church together, but sometimes the whites would come and visit our church and they would invite the Colored to come and visit their church . I didn ' t �4 know anything about it until I came to North Carolina and seems like it got worse and worse and worse so I hope it •·s better now. Some places it will never be any better. That's right. Interviewer: Do you think it was a good thing for the schools to intergrate like they have? Mrs. Horton: Yes I do. Especially in a little place like this. This is no city, you know that, but the Colored weren't situated to teach some of the children. Especially when they got to high school, at first they didn't have any high school teachers here and they would have to send their children off. My son and my daughter, when they finished elementary school here, I had to send them to Kings Mountain, North Carolina. I sent them to Kings Mountain, North Carolina to finish high school. And then, as I remember, some of the children went to Tennessee and some went to Greensboro these that wanted to. You know, so many will and so many won't. And so many can and so many can't. But I am thankful to the Lord that everything has turned out like it has. Everything seems to be a whole lot different from what it used to be when I was ~ growing up. If they'd get a job, people would get more money than they did back when I was a kid. I have worked for as little as three and four dollars a week and you know that isn't anv money. Now just let somebody ask you to work for them for three or four dollars a week. Some people would get rather violent. You'd better believe it. Yes sir. Interviewer: When you were going to school, how were the schools set up, did they have everybody in one room? Mrs. Horton: No, we had two rooms. I got as far as the sixth grade. I went about two of three weeks in the sixth grade and I had to quit. My father and my mother weren't too well and my brother, there weren't but four of us, and three girls and my brother. He lives out on up above us. That little white house that sits down there, he lives up above there in a yellow house. He married and we had to be the girls and the boys too so we just quit going to school. Stay at home and help with the house work. Interviewer: Did peop ~ e tend to marry younger back then they do now? Mrs. Horton: No I don't think so. I don't think they did. It don't seem to me like they did. They jump up and marry, I wouldn't be surprised if some little ten, twelve year old children don't get married, it wouldn't surprise me a bit. They didn't marry as young, as early as the young people do this day and time. Interviewer: Would you say there was a difference in the races getting married? The whites tend to marry younf.er than the blacks? Mrs. Horton: Well I don't know, I don't knm» how old they would be, but seems that they'd be pretty old when they would get married, no older than eighteen or nineteen. But now they marry younger than that don't they? Some of them do. �5 Well Mrs. Horton, I see that you have company coming and I won't hold you any longer. Thank you very much for your cooperation. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brooks, Mabel L. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Horton, Jenny Interview Date 6/17/1974 Location The location of the interview. Boone, NC Number of pages 5 pages Date digitized 9/16/2014 File size 3.11MB Checksum alphanumeric code acacad4985e3489eaecff5dca3a621e2 Scanned by Tony Grady Equipment Epson Expression 10000 XL Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965-1989; W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection; Special Collections; Appalachian State University; Boone; NC). Any commercial use of the materials; without the written permission of the Appalachian State University; is strictly prohibited. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived AC.111 Appalachian Oral History Project Records; 1965 - 1989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape288_JennyHorton_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jenny Horton [June 17, 1984] Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Document Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Mabel L. Horton, Jenny Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County Horton, Jenny Description An account of the resource Jenny Horton, a black woman living in Boone, talks about working as a cook most of her life. She worked in a hospital for a few years, but had to stop after she developed arthritis. She talks about the rationing of sugar, flour, meat, coffee, and other foods during the Depression and the different views on medicine people used to have. People were much more likely to use home remedies than go to the doctor. She also explains there was "a lot of tension between whites and blacks." Boone farming gardem garden Great Depression grits mill home remedies Jenny Horton Michigan Monroe North Carolina Pennyslvania Poconos segregation Watauga Hospital https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/43395a413921417dae7245f68e238901.pdf b25813346867e8597f1d7abf616b108f PDF Text Text Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, Tape 79 Interviewee: Ted Potter Interviewer: Karalyn Shelton Date: 12 June 1973 Transcriber: J. McTaggart Karalyn Shelton: This is an interview with Mr. Ted Potter for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Karalyn Shelton at Mr. Potter's home on June 12th, 1973. Okay, where were you born, Mr. Potter? Ted Potter: I was born up, back up there on the mountain. KS: In this area? TP: Yes. KS: Okay. What year were you born in? TP: 1908. KS: Okay. Uh, do you know Tamarack got its name? TP: Mm no. I don't know unless they got it from the Tamaracks and [inaudible]. KS: Okay, well um has anything happened in this community that you can think of that really changed it? TP: It's changed a lot. They made that road. Roads are getting better. KS: They're better now. TP: Yeah. KS: How did they used to be? Female voice: [Inaudible]. TP: [Inaudible] rocky... KS: Okay, do you know who some of the first settlers were in this area? TP: The first settlers? KS: Mm hm, what families? TP: I reckon it was the Mains and Potters. KS: Okay, what were your parents' names? TP: Johno Potter and Lily Potter. �KS: Where were they born? TP: Well, I think Mama was born right here in the barn, wasn't she... FV: I think so. KS: Well, where was your daddy born, just in this area? TP: Yeah, he must've been born...l wanna say, I believe he was born back up on the mountain. KS: Well, how many children were there in your family? TP: In my family? KS: Yeah. TP: Eleven. KS: Eleven? TP: Yeah. KS: Well, what are their names and ages? TP: [Inaudible] Female voice: [Inaudible] KS: Who came after Bert? TP: [Inaudible] and then Lady Bell and then Boyd... KS: You wanna read 'em to me? Female voice: No, I can't see [inaudible]... KS: Well after Lady Bell was Boyd then Nel and then Rosimer (?) then Ted Ward, Bonnie Lou and born in 1908, and then Ms. [inaudible] was born in 1910, okay. Well, what about your family, your mama and daddy's family. How many young'uns was in that family? TP: Five of us. KS: What were all their names? TP: Well, uh there's... Female voice: There's Ted and Ennie (?) and Nan (?) and Charles and Rob of the [inaudible] first family. Wasn't there? TP: Yeah and then there's seven in the last one. �FV: Well, we'll have to count 'em up I don't know how many. There's uh Fred and Howard and Dane and Velma and Juanita, they call her Tu, who's the other ones? TP:Johno. FV: Yeah, Johno. That's six. TP: And Bart. FV: Bart's seven. KS: That's a big family. FV: I believe that's all of them. Then they've got three, three of the...one of the first one's to join [inaudible]... TP: Two, two's dead... FV: Two's dead. KS: Well, what did your daddy do for a living? TP: Well, he uh carried the mail and... FV: I give up [inaudible]. KS: He logged? TP: Yeah, yeah, he logged for years when he wasn't carrying the mail. KS: Well, how did he carry the mail? TP: Well, he walked to the post office down here at the forks of the road up on the mountain and then he'd ride from [inaudible] to uh [inaudible]. KS: So he walked and rode the horse? TP: Yes, KS: Well, um how much land did your daddy have? TP: I believe this whole town. Well, when he was dying he was still in charge of 150 acres [inaudible]. KS: Well, did you move a lot or did you just stay around in this area? TP: [Inaudible] You mean did he move or? KS: No, you. TP: No, I've lived right here all my life ever since I've been married and that's forty...43 years? �FV: I don't know! [Inaudible] TP: [Chuckles] KS: But you've lived in this house right here for all them many years? TP: No; we lived in an old house. FV: No, we lived in a little ol' box house up here in [inaudible]. TP: I guess I moved well about 20 feet still from [inaudible]. KS: Mm hm, well where did you go to school? TP: Down here at [inaudible] down by the post office. KS: How many years did you get to go to school? TP: Well, I didn't, well I [inaudible] third grade. I [inaudible] didn't go much. KS: How many months did they have school out of the year? FV: Six back then I think! TP: Yeah, they had [inaudible] six months out of the year. KS: Well, what were the teachers like? TP: Well, there's uh Charlotte Thompson was my teacher [chuckles] and Ms. Rainy. She's a middle age woman, wasn't she? FV:Yeah. TP: Uh, Louise Sutherland, you remember her don't you? How she looked? KS: No, I don't believe I can. TP: She teach school down here. [Inaudible] them [inaudible] that lives over there in the Cove Creek they teach down here. [Inaudible] Weinberger he teach down here. KS: Well, what were they like, were they strict with you? TP: Yeah, they [inaudible] up on you. Well, they'd take kids back down uh make them [inaudible]. I reckon they're meaner now. They're now [inaudible]. They had to be rough on us [chuckles]. KS: How were they meaner? TP: [Inaudible] just [inaudible] right there. You know where [inaudible] and stuff like that. They wasn't uh they hit, when I [inaudible] beat up on you and I reckon it'd make you a lot meaner. �KS: Oh well, what kind of punishment did they have? TP: Well, they'd [inaudible] roots with a [inaudible]. KS: Well, what subjects did they teach? TP: You mean in Boone? KS: Uh huh. TP: Here at [inaudible] I don't know what it really, I forget really what was the highest grades. Back then they had these old timey primers. You know when you first start middle school. KS: Well, did you just have a primer in the first grade? TP: Yeah, that's all we had just... FV: They had ABC's and [inaudible]. TP: Yeah, you just had back in them days there wasn't like [inaudible]. [Inaudible] uh saw mills, logs and timber. KS: Mm hm. TP: And you had to do all the work [inaudible] with horse and mules and steers and oxens would haul 'em. KS: Well, did your whole family get to go to school? TP: Yes, they all went a little, I reckon. KS: Have the schools changed much over the years? TP: Oh yeah, they've changed a lot. KS: How have they changed? TP: Well, you see they put this transportation on and they cut these schools out of the settlements. And put the buses on them see takes uh the kids there. KS: What was the first job you ever had? TP: Well I, I've logged. I've logged here. It wasn't too long. [Inaudible] with a hoe was. Back then you didn't have no work [inaudible]. KS: Well, what else did they have besides the hoe? �TP: Maybe some old turning [inaudible] you turn the ground and then I don't reckon there's any [inaudible] back in them days. One of these old wooden [inaudible] and most of 'em just go over and cut 'em [inaudible] brash, stone brash [inaudible]. KS: Oh, well did you do any... FV: [Inaudible] just a dollar a day and sometimes it was like 90 cents. TP: Yeah, now-a-day we [inaudible]. Way back years, before they had [inaudible] it was about 50 cents a day. KS: Well, did you have any other jobs besides logging? TP: Not before I was married. KS: Well, what else have you done? TP: I've carried the mail and was carrying the mail when I was married. Then they build some bigger roads to go on. FV: You worked over yonder at [inaudible]. TP: I drove on that trade road from Craigstate(?) line. I have to build a [inaudible] over there on that road that goes through [inaudible]. KS: When was the hardest time you ever had getting a job? TP: Well uh, to take on the time uh you could hardly get a job. KS: When was this? TP: I had to [inaudible] married and... KS: Was this during the Depression? TP: Yeah, yeah right in there, the Depression. KS: Well, how did it affect you and your family? TP: [Inaudible] uh had to dig lots of roots and skin cherry bark to get along. KS: Well, did you raise your own food? TP:Yeah. KS: What did you raise? TP: Corn and beans and meat. �KS: What kind of meat? TP: Hog meat, killed about two hogs every fall. FV: Raised buckwheat and make pancakes. TP: [Laughter] FV: [Laughter] KS: Well, did you raise any of these crops to sell? TP: No, took about all of 'em back then [inaudible]. It wasn't like it is now. You what you made, you see people went through the summer made their uh what you say your meat and veggies. You raised your corn and had it to your mill grain or go to the mill every couple during the week. KS: Well, where was this mill at? TP: Uh well, there's some all right along up and [inaudible] had one up here. Fred Emerson he lives up there; he had a mill up there [inaudible]. Earl Lynn he had mill there for years. FV: [Inaudible] had one up there. TP: Yeah, Frank Naylor had one up there. KS: Well, can you remember anything about the banks during the Depression? TP: Well, the banks? KS:Mmhm. TP: Yeah, they went bank, they claimed that they went broke or busted. KS: Well, did you have any money in at that time? TP: No [chuckles]. You couldn't have no money back them days. KS: Uh huh, well, where were you working during the Depression? TP: Well, I had to quit carrying the mail I just make a [inaudible] around on the farm. Make what we eat just skinning cherry bark and haw bark and digging roots. KS: How much money did you get for this cherry bark and roots and stuff? TP: Well, I don't know it wasn't...cherry bark it wasn't over 2 cents, was it? FV: No. TP: And the haw bark it run up 6 maybe cents a pound, wasn't it? �8 FV: [Inaudible] for 5 cents then it went up to 8 [inaudible]. KS: Well, back during the Depression it took a whole lot of cherry bark and stuff to get money didn't it? TP: Yeah it just, you had work pretty steady at it. Like [inaudible] you had to work pretty steady at it to uh get something to eat. KS: Well, did any of your children have to leave home or anything during that time to get a job? TP: No, no they wasn't big enough to. KS: Oh, they wasn't? TP: And we got a pretty well grown [inaudible] Bernice she took that polio. KS: Well, um do you remember any programs like WPA or CCC? TP: Yeah, when they first started that WPA I think we first went to work on [inaudible] work up and down the roads. And they give a lot, give us an [inaudible] that store up there at Boone. We'd go up there and get had to go up there and take that [inaudible] team. Me and [inaudible]. KS: So you worked on... FV: [Inaudible] talking [inaudible]. TP: Nobody gives them...they had to [inaudible]. The store gave enough wheat for your work all week and you had to take it to Boone up there and [inaudible] the store and take that... KS: Well, did you work on the WPA? TP:Yeah. KS: Well, what all did you do? TP: Well, I helped build that surge line or sewage in Boone up there on the State Farm. And then later I worked in Blowing Rock a year or two, didn't I? FV: Yeah. TP: Walk up there to uh go over there into Wade [inaudible]. It's through the mountain and catch the state truck there and ride it on into Blowing Rock. KS: Well, can you remember the first car that came in here? TP: Yeah. KS: Well, uh who had it? TP: Will Sutherland. �KS: What kind was it? TP: I think it's an old A-Model and cloth top. KS: Well, what'd you think about it when you saw that? TP: [Laughter] I don't know what I thought about it them days. Shoot. My memories just a little bit [inaudible]. Down there right well when that old road come up through there then is right in front of that old house I lived on where my grandpap lived. He drove it up there and turned it. An old two seater, cloth top A-Model. KS: Well, before that how did people get around? TP: [Inaudible] buggies, hecks (?), wagons... KS: What's a heck? FV: Riding horse. TP: [Laughter] Yeah, it's an old four wheel outfit with two seats on it made like a buggy. It had a bed on it and had two seats on it. KS: Well, uh what churches did they have around here then? TP: Uh Baptist Church it set down here where this Baptist Church is. And then the Christian Church uh it set down right down uh just about where Curtis [inaudible] store is. KS: Well, where did most people go to church around here? TP: Well, they split up like they're now, part of 'em go to the Baptist Church and part to the Christian Church. KS: Well, do you think the preachers have changed much over the years? TP: Well, I don't know whether they have or not. They, I know one thing they've done they've back them days they would walk and now-a-days they ride they've got the cars to ride in [chuckles]. KS: Where did they walk from? TP: Well, you see they'd walk from or ride horses from wherever they lived, you see, to church. KS: Well, did they ever spend the night with any of the members or anything? TP: Yeah, back them days they would stay over. Well, uh most of would have a week's meat and they'd spend a week with uh Christians one day and members of the church and they'd spend the nights. KS: Well, how did the teachers do? Did they stay with students or did they have their homes around here? �10 TP: Uh, you see Earl Wineberger he lived back in yonder there and he had a big he had him a horse, a grey horse and a black one. He'd ride one of the horses and ask [inaudible] or one of the boys to ride the other one across the mountain. And I don't know, I forget how Charles Hompson got over here. I don't know, seemed like he boarded. [Inaudible] but I have I can't remember where exactly—it seems like he boarded in [inaudible]. KS: Well, did the Depression affect the schools in anyway? TP: Yeah, that Depression is hard on everybody. KS: Well, how did the schools change during that time? TP: Well, they never changed too much they just keep dragging along you know just people trying to send their young'uns. Once they got big enough they had to help work the fields, making corn, and stuff like that. KS: Who do you think was hit the hardest by the depression? TP: Well, I don't know. See if the banks went broke like they claim they did then them fellers that had decent money in 'em of course it hurt them. But [inaudible] to keep something to keep the poor man he didn't have [inaudible]. KS: Well, back in the days when you was younger, did they have any bad men or outlaws or anything around here? TP: Yeah, they were here. [Inaudible] Potters they think he was bad and then they had a killing, well a lot a killing. Several was killed down there. And they spread the [inaudible]. There were several killed down there and they [inaudible]. KS: Were those people born here or did they just come into to this section? TP: Wel,l part of 'em come in from Kentucky. 01' man Brooms(?) then [inaudible] then they come in, you see. KS: Well, who was the sheriff then? TP: I 'bout forgot [coughs] who was the High Sheriff. The first one I remember was uh I believe his name was Young, Sheriff Young they called him. His name was Young. And he had a daddy that Ed Horton, I think was his daddy [inaudible]. They change so much, you see, and I think the time I just can't... KS: Did any of 'em ever get killed? TP: No, not at all. Officers never did get killed, KS: Did Tamarack have a jail or anything? TP: No, no, they take 'em out. When they arrest 'em, they take 'em to Boone's jail just like they do now. �11 KS: What kind of buildings did they have, like post office and stuff like that? TP: They just old building, store house just like the one on old [inaudible], store house [inaudible]. Of course, some of 'em was bigger but just like uh it like [inaudible]. KS: Well, where was the country store around here? TP: Down there at the fork in the road. Frank Miller owned a store there for years. And then uh after he quit uh Curtis Potter took up the store down there. KS: What all kinds of things did they carry in their store? TP: Well, they carried dried goods and groceries and uh every now and then you'd buy you coffee. You'd have to buy and the grain. Most of the time you'd have to parch it, grind it at [chuckles] the mill. KS: Well, did anybody moonshine around here? TP: Yeah, they [inaudible] moonshining and bootlegging went on back them days, back when I was a boy. [END OF SIDE ONE] TP: ...with a you can cook then you had a six gallon barrel and a little beat boxes back then. They took a bushel of meal there to the barrel and they put the malt and rye chalk. I've even put a gallon of rye chalk in the barrel. It takes that about a week to go sour and work off and make the alcohol. KS: Was it good? TP: Yeah, just like the on his grain [inaudible] back them days once drain for the [inaudible]. See they, see they don't know what to make out of it. KS: Did anybody ever try to stop 'em from making moonshine? TP: Yeah, the law they's report 'em in and the law they would come and search and hunt for 'em, see. If they had to arrest a man, they'd have to [inaudible] back when I was a boy put him on a horse up behind them and take him in [chuckles]. KS: Any revenuers ever come in? TP: No, I don't reckon there wasn't no federal [inaudible] back then it was just the county officers that there. KS: Well, what did they do to you when they took you to Boone? TP: Well, they was pretty rough on 'em. They fined 'em maybe they'd have to go to jail cells. KS: How much did moonshine cost? �12 TP: I believe you could buy you uh it was you could buy a [inaudible] for $10 a gallon. KS: It was that expensive? TP: Huh? KS: It was that expensive? TP: Yeah, they'd sell it to trade for $10 a gallon and where'd they take a [inaudible] then they'd have for about $6 a gallon. And take it back into Tennessee in [inaudible]. I believe they put about six and four, they put about four cans to a hemp sack, tow sack they called 'em, and they'd put one on each side of a horse roll up on the horse and take it to Tennessee. Take it over night and they'd stay overnight over there. And then there was a drunk and they come at it. They would get them two or three half gallon cans and they [inaudible] in their saddle pockets and ride off with it. KS: [Chuckles] Well, what did you do for amusement when you was a little boy? TP: For what? KS: For amusement, what did you play with? TP: I forget. You see, back then there wasn't no toys to play with it was just, I forget. Little kids back them days there wasn't much to play with [inaudible]. We had no toys like there is now. KS: What was Christmas like? TP: Well, they [car horn honks] there's some difference in it, not too much. There's, now-a-days people they buy most of 'em buys their cakes and stuff. Back them days they'd [inaudible] and bake. KS: Did you have Christmas trees? TP: No, no Christmas tree [inaudible, chuckles]. KS: Didn't anybody have a Christmas tree? TP: No, they didn't. Nobody had a Christmas tree. KS: Did anybody believe in Santa Claus? TP: Well maybe, some of the kids would. And back then they'd go around your neighbors and go around and fix up some kind of old [inaudible] spaces maybe the night before Christmas. They just [inaudible] candy, there wasn't no toys then [inaudible]. KS: How much did candy cost back then? TP: I forget just one cost but it was way damn cheap I [inaudible]. You can get a right smart little pop for a dime [inaudible] candy in buckets. Well, I guess it [inaudible] in buckets, wooden buckets, the bulk candy was. The stick candy was in boxes like it is now I'd say. And there wasn't no uh well there way up, �Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, N.C. This electrostatic copy is subject to United States Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code). 3 way up that [inaudible] I don't reckon it was the later I got going [inaudible] bark candy, you know, would break your teeth, it was just all loose candy. KS: What kind of medicines did they use back then? TP: Well, I don't know. If anybody gets sick they just go, go to the doctor. And I don't know I reckon he made his medicine. KS: What kinds did he use? TP: Huh? KS: What kinds of medicines did he use? TP: Well there, use quinine and you know stuff like that most the time. And I don't know what else he uh made medicine out of. KS: Well, what about home remedies? What kind of home remedies did they have? TP: What? KS: That your mama made up. TP: Well, they make bone-sift (?) tea and there's some other kind of tea. See there wasn't no aspirins or none of these pills like there is now. No aspirins...nothing like that. KS: Can you remember any legends or tales or superstitions that people had back then that's maybe been passed down to you? TP: No. KS: Did your grandfather ever tell you anything about the Civil War or your Papa? TP: No, I never did hear any him talk too much about it [inaudible]... [Children yelling in background] TP: You see, if they wasn't [inaudible] ol' Grandpap he was [inaudible]. He was just uh...his daddy [inaudible] and Granny's daddy [inaudible]. KS: Was there ever any Negro slaves around here that you heard about? TP: Yeah, up here on the [inaudible] place used to be a family of Negros that lived up there. KS: Were they slaves? TP: No, no they lived up there just like any other family go and make their, made their living. KS: Well, how did people like 'em? �Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, N.C. This electrostatic copy is subject to United States Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code). _4 TP: Uh they liked 'em all right. They had a little good I reckon they would you know barter with 'em and ask somebody if they talked to 'em. Yeah they's...! forget what the nigger man's name was but the lady her name was Reena [inaudible]. [Note: this is the Red or Read family.] Most of 'ems buried up there just to go up and touch [inaudible]. KS: Would people around here very superstitious back then? TP: No, they wasn't superstitious. KS: Was there anything you can think to tell me about the old days? TP: No [chuckles], you forget a lot. KS: Mm hm, would you like to live back there in them days, now? TP: Well I don't know whether I would or not. It's...back them days nobody much tried to save, save any money like they do now-a-days. Always looking at any [inaudible] to make their what they went up on, you know, to raise a family. KS: Well, thank you. [END] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-27 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ted Potter, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource Ted Potter was born in Tamarack, NC in 1908 and throughout his life was a logger, mail carrier, and farmer. Mr. Potter recalls childhood memories of Christmas, moonshining, and the Great Depression. He discusses the schoolhouse experience from his childhood as well as farming during the Great Depression. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shelton, Karalyn Potter, Ted Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape79_TedPotter_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Todd, NC Subject The topic of the resource Potter, Ted--Interviews Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Tamarack Farm life--North Carolina--Tamarack--20th century Tamarack (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 Boone CCC Civilian Conservation Corps farming Great Depression moonshining North Carolina schoolhouse Tamarack Ted Potter Works Progress Administration WPA https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/25703df14bd97d3a4cd29b66032e5478.pdf 6899b96465f8f327548fa2bd23f871fe PDF Text Text This is an interview with Loura Edmisten for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Karen Ward at Boone on June 9, 1973. Mrs. Edmisten is my grandmother and the Papa referred to in the interview is my grandfather. Q: Where were you born? A: Beech Creek. Q: Okay, what year were you born in? A: 1894. Q: Have you lived in Watauga County all your life? A: No. Q: Where else have you lived? A: Avery. Q: Avery County. A: I don't know. What part of Avery County? I guess it would be called the Western. Q: When did you move to Boone? A: '45. Q: Have you lived here since '45? A: Yes. Q: Okay, what were your parent's names? I don't know. �2. A: Isaac Valentine Reese. Q: What was your mother's name? A: Mary. X Q: How many children were in your family? A: Thirteen in all. Q: Thirteen? Do you remember all of their names? A: Yeah, Sarah, Mary, John, Grant, Lizzy, Thomas, Elminey, Hugh, Jim or James, half brothers and sisters. Q: Those are half brothers and sisters? A: Roscoe, Victoria, Julia and myself. Q: Okay, how many of them are living right now? A: Three. Q: Three, counting you? Is that counting yourself? A: Yes. Q: What did your father do for a living? A: Well, he was a merchant and postmaster, union pensioner, farmer and I guess that's all I can think of. �3. Q: Well, did your family own any land? A: Yes. Q: Where about? A: Oh, in Watauga and Avery County. Q: About how much land did he own all together? A: Oh, I guess at one time, four or five or six hundred acres. Q: Where did you attend school? What was the name of your school? A: Well, we went to Mt. Gilead, that was the name of the church and the school that I attended was in the church buildings. We didn't have no school buildings at that time. Q: So you went in a church? A: Yeah. Had two different churches. were taught in. Q: How long did you go to school? A: Seventh. Q: Through the seventh grade? A: Through the seventh. Q: Were your teachers strict on you? Baptist and Christian that the schools �4. A: Yes, very. Q: Tell me how. A: Well, you just had to come with lessons or you had 'em to get over, and if you got rude, you sometimes stood in the corner. And sometimes you got a good lashing if it was bad enough. Q: Did you ever get a whipping? A: No. Q: So you were good. What type of subjects were you taught in school? A: Oh, reading, arithmetic, spelling, history, geography, grammar, which would be called English now I guess. Oh, I can't think. I guess that's all. Q: Did all of your brothers and sisters go to school at some time? A: Yes, every one of them. Q: Do you think the schools have changed very much over the years? A: Yes indeed. Q: How? A: Well, that'd be hard, sixty-four dollar question. Q: Have you ever worked anywhere? A: No. They've changed a lot. �5. Q: Nowhere? A: Outside of home, garden, and farm. Q: Did women when you were growing up, work very much outside of the house of just within the house and garden? A: Yes, quite a bit. Q: What did they do? A: They helped with the farm work. Q: What kind of crops did you all grow? A: Oh, corn, wheat, rye, oats and all kinds of garden varieties. Q: What types of churches were in your area when you were growing up? A: Baptist and one Christian Church. Q: That was all? A: Yes. Q: What religion were most people in your community? A: Baptist, I'd say. Q: What church did you go to? A: Christian and I went to the Baptist. �Q: So you went to both • A: I went to Baptist I guess more than I did the other. Q: Do you think religion has played an important part in your life? A: Of course. Q: How? A: Oh, I guess it probablymade me see things in a different light than what it would if I had never gone and probably caused my conversion. Q: Have churches changed much over the years? A: Well, I think so. Q: Do you think the preachers are different from what they use to be like? Do they preach the same? A: Yes, they are. Q: Back when you were growing up, what were politics like? A: Well, I'll tell you, women didn't mess in politics then at that time when I was growing up. They did later, but not to the extent they do today, they were just like they are now, everybody for his own side. Q: How did most people tend to vote back then, more Republicans or. . ? A: Yeah, I think they were at that time, I don't know how about nationwide but �we had more Republican Presidents. Q: How did people get around for transportation? A: Horseback and buggy, surry and what they call a hack. Q: What's a hack? A: Well, it's a bigger vehicle where maybe nine or ten can ride in it. Q: Can you remember seeing your first car? A: Yes. Q: What year was that? Do you remember that? A: Oh, I don't remember what year it was. Q: What did you think when you saw it? A: Well, I just thought it was a car, because I knew they were being manufactured. Q: Did you ever make soap or quilt or anything like that? A: Soap and quilts. Q: You did both of those? A: Yes. Q: Do you still quilt any? A: No. �Q: When you were a young girl, can you remember any bad men or know people that were outlaws and stuff like that? A: Yes. Q: Who were they? Do you remember? A: Oh no, I don't talk and tell who people was. That's not my business. But there were murders went on and some stealing and robbing, and I know their names of some, but that's for someone else to answer. Q: Are they dead now? A: Yeah, I guess they are, most of them. Q: What did young people do for entertainment? A: Oh, they dated and danced and had singings. Oh several different things. Q: Was dating back then different from what dating is now? A: Yes. Q: How.? A: Well, they stayed at home and dated. Q: Stayed at home? Did the depression affect you and your family very much? A: No. Q: It didn't? Were you married then? �A: Yes. Q: What was Papa's job during the depression? A: Oh, he was a farmer and a produce man, hauled produce to market. Q: So he raised crops? A: Yeah, and then he bought and sold. Q: How many children did you have during the depression? A: Two. Q: Did any of your children have to leave home? A: No. Q: Did your family always have enough to eat? A: Yeah. Q: You never went hungry because of it? A: No. Q: What do you think you should do to be a good mother? A: Oh, Law, that's another question I couldn't answer. Do the best you can and forget about it I guess. Q: Do you know if you raised your children right? �10. A: No, I don't. Q: Do you think you did? Do you think you raised them right? A: No, I don't. I don't know whether I did or not, but some of 'em didn't do exactly as I wanted 'em to, but some did, so there it was. Q: Is it the father's place to help in raising children? A: It certainly is. Q: Did Papa help you with the children? A: Not too much. Q: But some? A: ^ah. Oh, he helped support 'em. Q: Yeah. What do you think children should do around the house when they're growing up, you know in helping? A: Whatever they are told to do. Q: You tell them what to do and they do it. A: They should, but they don't always. Q: If .you could change anything about the way things are, what would you change? A: Well, graft for one thing. I'd tried to have people not to be so greedy, that they'd do anything for money. That would be about the biggest thing I'd change, 'cause its about the cause of all evil. People wanting money, doing anything to get it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Loura Edmisten, June 9, 1973 Description An account of the resource Loura Edminstin was born in Beech Creek, NC in 1894 and had 13 siblings in her family. She lived in Watauga and Avery County throughout her life. Ms. Edminstin discusses her childhood including the topics of politics, school, and church. She also discusses the traditions in raising a family. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ward, Karen Edminsten, Loura Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/9/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 10 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape82_LouraEdmisten_1973_06_09M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Edminsten, Loura--Interviews Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Avery County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Christian life--North Carolina--Watauga County Christian life--North Carolina--Avery County Avery County Baptist Church Beech Creek buggy church hack Loura Edmisten Mt Gilead Politics schoolhouse Watauga County N.C. https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/72eb3091cd66b7d29516ed058c5e7b5e.pdf bd40525eec5259655c582a9d5775c88d PDF Text Text This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. G. L. Richards for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Donna Clawson at Rt. 7, Boone, en June 12, 1973. Q: Mrs.-Richards I'll start with you. Where were you born? A: Well, I was born at Silver Stone in 1902. March 5, 1902. Q: And your parents always lived in there? A: Yes. Q: They were born in Silver Stone two? A: Well, my mother was born rear Poplar Grove and my papa was horn there. Q: How many brothers and sisters did you have? A: Well, does that mean living? Q: No. A: Well I have six sisters and one brother all the others are gone. Q: Can you remember, do you have many memories of what life was like when you were growing up. Did you live on a farm? A: -fes. Q: What kind of crops did you raise? A: Well, Papa raised corn, wheart back then to amke our flour, you taow. WB used to gst out the Dutch oven, my brother is one of the younger ones, you know. Us girls, he used to cut his wheat with you've seen these old cradles you know. Did you ever see cne and cut wheat by hand? �We raised our corn, hogs and chickens, things like thata didn't have to run.to the store for everything. You It was pretty hard vork. Q: Did your father sell any of his crops or did he just A: Well, I didn't have ituch0 0 . I went to "the sixth grade. Q: How many months out of the yaar did you go to school? A: Well, when I first started in school it was four months. Then they got to having six month school. Q: What was the names of the schools you attended„ A: I always went to Silver Stone. Q: Do you remember you teachers names. A: Well, my first teacher was Mrs. Lottie Bowes, she's still living and I think my next .teachers name was Jack Greene and Mr. Charlie Haigaman, and Mr. Alie Tugman and Mr. Don Horton and that was all of them. Q: What kind of thing did you learn and what kind of text books did you have? A: Well, at first we didn't have anything only first reader, they called it. And then got a little high. We had a reader and spelling, arithmetic and grammer they called it, geography history. Q: About the same thing they teach no isn't it? A: I guess so. Q: I think it is0 Mr. Richards where were you born? �A: Caldwell County, I think. Q: And were your parents from these too? A: Vfell, ny father was. My mother and father lived there and I come back up here to this country in the mountains when I was six years old.. We lived up on Meat Camp from 6 til I was grown, about 20 or something like that. farmed you know. I lived up the 1s and About everybody ip there farmed. It was hard labor of course but we farmed. Q: What year were you born? A: 1897. Qi What kind of crops did you raise on your farm? A: Well, it was just about like she'd tell you. Corn, pota- toes you know wheat, rye, buckwheat alot of buckwheat«, thing to eat on too, you know. Some- And that was before they had the market crops like tobacco, beans and cabbage. In the later years we got to having market crops, like tobacco and stuff. Q: What kind of live stock did you have? A: Cattle mostly, worked steers. Did you ever see any steers? Q: Yeah, I seen 'em. A: Steers to plow throught the harvest. Had an old cross cut saw to saw up wood in the winter, to put in the fireplaces about half as wide as this house. Q: Go diead. A: One time one side would burn up and the other side would freeze. �Q: I didn ' t know. A: My father would, Jater years got to rasing tomatoes and cabbage to sell0 Q: What about school? How many years of schooling did you bave? A: I don't know. I did n't do no good when I did go. About quit between fifth and sixth grade. Q: Howmany months out of the year did you go? A: About ibru months sometimes we'd run short about three monthso It didn't take long sessions like they do now. children most of them any account at all had to work. to farm the time I was twelve yaars old on. The I had We all had to work seem like to make it. We didn't have a bif family no how. Just myself and two sisters. One of them lives in California and the other one passes away a week ago Saturday. My mother married, you know Jason Muller don't you. Q: I don't know. A: He lived here and was raised up on Meat Camp up there and never traveled around too much. He was Larken Miller's brother. All passes away I think but Jason. But he married my mother and I had a step father for about five or six years. up about 12 years old0 (Mrs. Ro 'I think he was about 10')) A: Well, something along there. (Mrs. R. 'I know he's 94') I can't remember0 I was �Q: When did you two get married? A: Miy the sixteenth, 1918. Q: Where did you live then? A: Well, he lived on Meat Camp and I lived. . 0 Oh, you mean where we lived after we got married. Q; Yeah0 A: Well, we lived on Meat Camp awhile and we moved over to Silver Stone over there. while aid out And we moved over to Howard's Creek a little to somewhere. Q: You've always lived in this county then0 A: Yes. A: (Mr. R.) No we lived about four years in Cleveland, Ohio, wasn't it. R: Well we didn't exactly move up there. A: We lived up ther with Sally Roten (Mr. R). A: You was vorking up there and I would go up there awhile. Q: Mr. Richards what kind of jobs did you have? A: All kinds. I've worked in several shops. I've worked in a shop up there in Cleveland and I used to work at Lenior in a furniture shop. And I've had several jobs sawmilling, car- pentry work and I never could be very choicy about that. I had to work at something or another that wasn't hardly right to work awhile and find something better. Jones, don't you. feymond Jone's brother. You remember Hubfoard Joneses sons. I �worked for him a whole lot. I reckon liked him alot. Most of anybody that sawmilled I don't guess you remember a bunch of Jews around run a pie factory a few years ago. when ve first moved out here wasn't it. ago0 It was Close to 30 years I don't imagine you're that old. Q: Not qiitec A: I vrorked there 10 years ago or longer around and about, around and around. Q: Can you remember a time when you had a hard time getting a job? A: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, lots of times you couldn't hardly get a pi?. Eack then they didn't pay much, they got labor real cheap» I used to vrork alot for a dollar a day and wages like that. And now they don't like tlBt you know. A: (Mrs. R) If you got a hold of five dollars you thought that was a whole lot of money , didn't they. A: (Mr. R.) How much was it a dollar and seventy five cents or a dollar and a half, something like that. He was awful good to pay what he promised,, I don't remember. It wasn't very much, but still we sorta lived about all you could expect was to live and went to Cleveland, then and made better there, better than I ever had in this county. Q: What kind of wrk did you do in Cleveland? A: I worked in a factory or where they made �R. I call them clothers hampers.) Clothes hampers. For people to carry their laundry around in. like that*, All kinds of stuff I did so many different things I can't remember all of it. A: (MrSo Ro) . . „ we have had it a long time andit's getting old. A: Bunch of Jews I worked for and they were from New York and ate these0 I cut out all that stuff outl I cut it all out on a shaping machine a saw, a big table saw, and shaping machine and a , they tad all kinds of machinery and I ran a machine all the time myself. They vent to a lot of. . . They was alot of people worked there0 We went to a more colored people. QK How many hours a day did you work? A: Well, I worked eight„ We were supposed to work about eight hours, but they let me work a lot of overtime„ 10 hours, 10 orU hours alot of days. I'd work avbout We got time and a half for o/er forty and thats the reason I made pretty good, was the over time. The pay wasn't but about a dollar and sixty cents, I believe it was0 Then I'd get couple hours, maybe 3 everyday of overtime and when it ran over forty hours I got time and a half. Then carried up pretty good when payday come. Q What year was it you were working up there? A: 1952, fall wouldn't it. 3952, I went up there then about four years later I come back about '56 or '570 Something like �8 about 1956 or 1957. Then messing around here I haven't done too nuch work since I came back0 On a job. I've been busy all the time but it's been a farming and messing around,, Q: What about diurches in the area. Can you remember churches that been around here? A: ¥>u Mean. Q: The denominations. What kinds of churches? Just in the county and around. A: (Mrs. R.) You nean we've attended. Q: Well, yeah, Just any you can remember. A: Well, I can remember Methodist Churches and Lutheran, we still have them. Baptist, we always went to the Baptist Church. Oh, I have been to the Methodist Church that was up at Silver Stone. I don't think to any denomination outside of the Baptist Church since we lived over here* Q: To which church did most of the people belong. Which church did most people attend? A: (Mrs. R.) I always thought it was the Baptist, of course I dan't know for sure. Q: What were the churches like, have they changed slot? A: Well, some of them have , but I like the old time way. Q: How are they different. A: Well, I don't know what. You go to diurch now. the people have the interest that they used to did0 then they had monthly meetings0 Seem like Of course The preacher would preach once. �They'd have Saturday meetings to attend to all of the business you friow, and on Sunday. Of course we'd have Sunday School every Sunday, but we wouldn't have preching any more till next month. Aid I remember the fourth Sunday was the monthly meeting in Silver Stone. once a uear. And , oh, they'd have revivals you know about Sometimes they'd last two weeks and they would have a big time. Have services in the daytime, then at night. Q: Do you know how this community got its name? Rainbow Trail community. A: I dan't rightly know0 Thats the name as far back as I can remember. (Mr. R.) A: (Mrs0 R, > Maybe Mr. Walter Cullins could know. Q: Yeah, I talked to him. A: They used to call it the Doe Ridge Section back up in yonder that mountain right thea is Doe Ridge Mountain. This used to go by the name of Doe Ridge Road till after we moved out here then they got to calling it Rainbow Trail., come they to change. I don't know how (Mrs. R.) Q: Well this road here goes in around to Doe Ridge Church, years ago, It maybe now that it's impassable back up there in that mountain. I've been through these a couple of times, it's just a dirt road , around through there years ago. I can remem- ber a person could walk up throug there. (Mr. R) A: (Mrs R) Well we've not been out in there in 7 or 8 years have we. �10 A: (Mr. R) Yeah, I guess, A: (Mrs. R) We've been living out in here nearly fifty years0 A:(Mr. R) What? A: (Mrs. R) We've been living out in here nearly 30 yearso Johnny wasn't hit about 3 years olcU Johnny's 32, maybe 29 or 30 years. Q: How has the community changed over the years? A: (Mr. R) Everybody living, buildt em a new house. A: (Mrs. R) Much better ttiat it was then. moved in town yonder. I know when we Lots of barns looked better than it did. A: (Mr. R) You remember, that old house down yonder0 A: Yeah, A: (Mrs. R) She did n't look to see if it looked worse. A: (Mr. R) You oould tell from the outside before we tors it down. Couldn't possibly be very much on the inside. A: (mrs. R)) I wonder how we kept from freezing to death of a winter time. Q: How long did you live down there? A: (Mrs. R) Law we lived down there. We moved into this house from down there in 1960 and I never stopped to count. A: (Jtfr. R) Down there about 12 years. A: (Mrs. R) Down there about 29 or 30 years then 1960 we moved up here. A: (Mr. R) From "72 it been 12 or 13 years0 �11 A: (Mrs. R) From 1960 on, no 1959 then it come that awful, can you remember that awful snow that come in 1960= Q: Yeah, A: We vas moved in this house thei?,we was lucky we got moved, Well, the weather seemed colder on us you knowa One winter time0 Q: I bet these alot more people lived around here now than they used to be. A: (Mr. R) Yeah. A: (Mrs. R} The 0 . . moved in there. We moved out here. Who moved out there at that house? Anybody living over there at time? Well, he lived over there awhile and Mr. Ladkey. A: (Mr. R) Oh yeah he lived there longer than us. A: (Mrs,R) Yeah, he bought up that place and then Gladys Smith, she moved up here in this house a little while after we moved in that old house dswn there0 where John Greene lives now. And Mr. Hartley lived up there Ed's mother. But they Mr. Lewis and Hartlys were off down the country a working. daddy moved back. When their Mr. Colors he lived up in the hollar and Donald Miller and ttet was about all. And Mr. Woodry. And we lived down in the old house which we tore down. That little house that stood over there and they tore it down. I forgot them, and I believe Jeff Garner lived out there where Mr. in an dd house that s$bd over there and they tore it down. Where Mr. Woodring lived„ Of course they lived in another �12 home. And then there is Glenn Pierce the were living out there in a house that got burned. I can't remember. I guess the, Mr. and Mrs. Lackey living over there across the river. A: (Mrs. R) Yeah, I remember em living over there along time. A: The old road was like a stieeps path, the road down there„ The bushes out the other side of Mr0 Woods would generally lap across the road. A: (Mr0 R) You couldn't meet somebody two a walking, you couldn't hardley passing0 Holler and a scare you to death. Car couldn't come out in here at that tLme0 A: (Mrs. R) There was one once in a while, I don't hardly see how it did. A: (Mr. R) The bushes was high and the cliffs down in here one time. Antler's one, hung on the youngest one, what's his name? A: Petty A: (Mr. R) Help me cut out the bushes off the bank of the road so they wouldn't lap over the road. cut em let the state cut em0 And they said let -ftie state The state wouldn't come out here. No electric lines, nothing out here. A: (Mrs. R) We did have no maid; out there0 A: Yeah, we had to put our mail box out theie at Mrs. Barnes0 (Mrs. New Barnes0) A: (Mr0 R) And they says let the state and I think to myself you've got a long wait. Q: The way it goeso Well how long wag it till the mail started �13 coming ip in here? A: I don't Know but it was a good long while. A: (Mrs* R) I took awhile. I don't remember how long it took. The School bus come out there at to Mr. Judd Barnes and turned there and the mail gst coming out that far. And it wasn't too many years till ttie moil got to coming out that far. And as to where you used to turn over to your house. And then a little later on it got to going to the top of the hil!0 Q: Wello A: (Mr.R) There was Clyde Rumbarger. Do you remember Clyde Rumbarger? Q: "feaho A: Me and him used to go to school together. We while, we was raised up on Meat Camp and he carried the mail back here A: (Mrs. R) I know a Johnny. Tried to rush around and get out to Mr. Woodring to catch the bus. Of course after they left home, they's poke around and let the school bus leave them. I'd get so aggravated. Q: How did people get"around back then, when you were growing up? A: (Mr, R) They was a few people had horspes/ some wouldn't or couldn't buy a saddle hores and buggy0 A buggy would just run over you0 A: fclrse R) If you can believe it, I have gone to church and other places in an ox and wagon. Roads rough , rocky �14 you know, just jolt around. Q: I'll bet it would. I guess it could. A: (Mrs. R) Well, my daddy always kept an exxtra team. out horse to work on the farm. He kept an ox, Rent you'd better b elieve they were pretty slow, but they started to plow farming -he done with them oxen., here on the mountain0 Around the old turnpike you know up Hauled all over the whole county0 Q: Where did most of the roads run? Well just where were the roads you had there? A: (Mr. R) They were mud roads. You sorta know this one was when you fold moved in the old road. in the country, where we growed up. Gravel road or two like that. worked About like they all was They wasn't no paved roads. on them a little. labor wanted the people out you know setting roads. Free Then they would go in and take a rake, I call it a hoe. A: (Mrs. R) Well a lot of the old new roads now run pretty close to SDiaejof the old roads o A: (Mr.R)> Pretty much the way they do now0 A.s Mrs. R They didn't used to be any old roads0 them pretty close to where the old roads were. End of Interview Alot of � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore,Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mr. and Mrs. G.L. Richards, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource Mrs. Richards was born March 5, 1902 in Silverstone, NC where she was raised on a farm. Mr. Richards was born in Caldwell County in 1897. He worked many different jobs including sawmilling and carpentry. Mr. and Mrs. Richards recall their childhoods growing up on farms and their small amount of schooling. Mr. Richards talks about the hard time he had finding jobs and describes his working experience in his different career paths. He worked for four years in Cleveland, Ohio. The couple talks about the community and the changes it has experienced in transportation and religion. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clawson, Donna Richards, Mr. & Mrs. G.L. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape75_Mr&MrsGLRichards_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Richards, G. L.--Interviews Richards, G. L., Mrs.--Interviews Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Avery County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 Caldwell County carpentry church Cleveland crops farm furniture shop G.L. Richards Lenior Meat Camp North Carolina Ohio Poplar Grove sawmilling Silver Stone Sunday School transportation https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7955776b936911d510652d48df4bdfc7.pdf 88316902588f76fe8dea2556b50fc363 PDF Text Text Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, Tape 74 Interviewees: Mr. and Mrs. Jim Greer Interviewer: n/a Date: 11 June 1973 Transcriber: J. McTaggart Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Jim Greer for the Appalachian Oral History Project in Triplett on June 11th, 1973. Okay, first I'd like to have your names and ages, please. Jim Greer: Mine's James Calvin Greer and I'll be 65 years old on the fourth day of September. I: Oh okay, what about you, Mrs. Greer? Vera Greer: Um mines Vera Greer and I'll I was 61 the first day of May. I: Oh and where were you born? JG: I was born around here at the community center. I: Wereya? JG: Yeah, just around the road there. VG: Yup right at the community, yeah. And I was born in Caldwell County. I: Have you lived around here all of your lives? JG:No. VG: No. I: Where have you lived? JG: I lived in [inaudible] state gone for four years before I come back. I lived in Caldwell County, Wilkes County. VG: Who's that? I hear another car. JG: I don't see it. Some folks bought that place up here. I: Why did you move from here? JG: Well, my mother moved to Wilkes County to my sister's and my daddy he left when I was four years old. Mama had to keep me and my sister up 'til I got big enough to work. And I had to help her 'til I got grown. We left here when I was about nine years old and went on up ahead the creek where Ralph Greene lives now; got roots and herbs and gathered barks and stuff to get our groceries and clothes with. Mama made all my clothes she just bought the cloth and made it. And uh you couldn't get no work �nowhere; there was no work to do. And I wasn't big enough to work and mama she'd wash around here on [inaudible] branch all day for 50 cents. [Inaudible] not too big a washing for 50 cents. I: How would she wash 'em? JG: With her hands and washboard, paddle board. Stand on big ol' banks and she had the paddle and she'd beat the dirt out with the paddle. It was rough going, I'll tell you. I: Were there just you and your sister in your family? JG: Yeah at that time, the other had three. VG: She was married twice [inaudible] the first time. JG: She was married twice, my mother but the other two was married and gone. Last, my daddy was being an [inaudible] sister. I: Is she older or younger? JG: She's younger than I am. Daddy [inaudible]. I: What was your father's occupation? JG: Well, he worked for people, dug ditch and anything you could get do. VG: All of these cleared fields on top of the mountain up here he cleared them. JG: On top of the mountain up here, he cleared them. When you first go out up here them fields out there when you first go out old man Tom Greer's mail [inaudible] on top of his up there. All them fields my daddy cleared back there. I: Well, how did he do it? JG: Ax, chopped 'em. I've seen him cut trees down four foot through with an ax, chop 'em down. I: How long would it take him? JG: Well, it'd take him three or four hours. I: And how much would he make? JG: Well, he got when he did get anything it was 33 and 1/3 cents a day was all he got out of his work. Killed himself at work and people living off his labor right now, enjoying it. I: Did your mother work or was she just around the house? JG: She worked around the house and whatever she'd get to do for people, haul corn and stuff like that. Wash and things like that; we'd walk way up here to the creek, three miles down here [inaudible] the branch and do a little washing. �I: She would just do the neighborhood's washing? JG: Yeah, mm hm ol' lady [inaudible] and uh Minnie Hayes' mother, yeah. She'd come on out of there and work all day and get by the time we had a cow, she'd take it up and fodder. You know, top fodder of corn. She'd give it about five or six shucks of top for a day's work. And she done carry them out from around there [inaudible] Creek here in about three miles. And I'd come and meet her in the evening and take part of the load off of her and carry what I could. I was little I couldn't do much, 'bout five or six years old something like that. And me and her would get out in the woods and gather herbs and roots carry it little up here to [inaudible]. [Inaudible] that big brick house up there on the right of the road there used to be a big ol' store right there where that there cloth place is now. And old man [inaudible] McNee run a big store there and we'd carry our herbs up there right up there mountain 'bout I guess we'd go three miles. And the mountain we'd climb all the way 'till we got on top. I: So you would sell your roots and herbs and things? JG: Yes, maybe get up there and maybe have a dollar's worth with all we can carry. I: Mm. JG: Some of 'em were a cent a pound; some were a cent and a half some two cent, three cents. You couldn't get nothing for more than that. I've had hard all my life and the highest I ever made a working was the furniture factory [inaudible] 36 hours. I worked all my life, raised my family, worked for my mother and sister 'till I was 21 years old. I helped on that highway that goes down the mountain to Wilkesboro; I helped build that bridge from the bottom to the top. I: Really? JG: Yeah, see it's about four miles to do that, no way around it [clears throat]. I: Goodness, what do you do now, what kind of work? JG: Nothin' I've been disabled for about 16,17 years. I: Oh. JG: My [inaudible] to the heart [inaudible] won't let me. He tell me last year not even to put out a garden. The digging might have a stroke or something. I: Mm, did you have a garden when you were little and growing up with your family? JG: Yeah, me and mama gardened every year and raked. You went through the houses sits up here and you start up the mountain and you leave this old house down here at the foot with the rock crusher. The two little houses sits on the right on the holler. Now this field right here above the road me and mama made our bread on that hill there. [Background noises] �I: Made what? JG: Made our corn bread when I was a little boy. We had corn all over that hill. We had a third of it for raising. We dug holes and plant the corn with a hoe then dug it out and hoed it when it come up, made our corn up on that steep hill. It's straight up and down now. I: Goodness, I don't see how you could hoe like that. JG: You couldn't hardly stand up on it. You'd slide down and fall; we worked it 'til we got our corn worked out. We made corn out of it two or three years on that hill. It's growed up now they've been timber cut off it since me and mom worked corn on it. I: What other kind of crops did you raise? JG: Well, just beans and cucumbers and maters, Irish potatoes stuff like that. I: Did you have any livestock or animals? JG: No, well we generally kept cow most of the time. Dm, I've eaten boiled Irish potatoes for months at a time for bread. We didn't have no bread and we didn't have no bread to eat. We'd boil Irish potatoes and eat them for bread and butter. That's what we had to eat. You tell people that this day and time they wouldn't believe it but it's so. I: Hm I guess you were glad to get that though. JG: Oh Lord yeah, I was glad to get it. A lot of times we didn't have potatoes. And I've eaten water gravy a-many a-times just made out of flour and water and a little grease, you know. Maybe ol' strong meat skins or something fry the grease out of 'em and make cream gravy. [I'd] eat that many a mornin' for breakfast. I: Hm. JG: Mama made all my clothes. Here, here maybe I'll show you here. I've got a picture if I can find it when I was a little boy. Where is that picture? VG: There's one right up here. Yes sonny, they're right up here where I hang it! JG: No, not mine! VG: Yes! You're too! JG: Did I put it up here? VG: [Inaudible] I know you did! JG: I'll show you this so you know I'm telling the truth. There it is. That's me and my mother there. I: Aw. �JG: I was 21 years old when that was took down at far end of that high bridge I was telling you about. I: That's a good picture. JG: There's another one just like it. [Inaudible] my other picture. VG: Well, I don't know what you've done with it, honey! JG: Let me see. I: Your mother made these clothes? JG: Mm hm, made my clothes. VG: No, not them. She's talking about the little picture that he had. I don't know what he's done with it. JG: Here it is! Here it is! I'll show you. I knew I had this. VG: Damn, I thought that was ones he had...that is him and his mother. I: You were 21 here? VG: Yeah. JG: Mm hm. I: That's a good picture. VG: Now, right there's where... JG: That's where [inaudible] year old when that's took. You see, the homemade overalls and the shirt. You see the buttons on it. Now that pictures way old, it's about 60 years old I guess maybe more. I: Oh. JG: It was took when the old picture was crackled up you know and you couldn't get the crackles out of it. VG: Took it from an old picture you know. JG: A boyfriend of mine had a creek up there in little Triplett and his grandfather's back here behind. I tried to take 'em both off but didn't get 'em both. I: Who took these pictures? JG: [Inaudible] Greene took them way back when [inaudible]. VG: She lives at uh... JG: Spruce Pine. �VG: Spruce Pine! JG: She's dead now. How come you get that now she's around at Minnie Hayes's and uh asked her and she didn't have one of my old pictures when I was a little boy. And she said yeah, she did she took it with a little bitty Kodak just made little bitty pictures about 2 by or 2 by 3 or something. And uh she kept it all this time and I asked her if she'd let me have the picture. She said when I'm dead, says you can have it. I says well I might die before you go [chuckles]. So she died and her daughter had some made, some smalls made and sent me two of 'em and I took them and had 'em enlarged like that so they could be a little bigger. I: Aw, that's a good picture. JG: I was about nine years old when that was took. I: Aw, I bet you're glad to get that. JG: Oh yeah, I wouldn't take nothirt' for it. I: Goodness. JG: I wouldn't. I: Mm. JG: I had on a little black hat you see it? You can see it. VG: That was up here on [inaudible]. I: How long would it take your mother to make a pair of overalls like that? JG: It would take a month. I: Did she have an old sewing machine or would she make 'em by hand? JG: No, she made 'em by hand. I: Oh and she, where would she buy her cloth? JG: Go to Eller McNee's (?) store on top of the mountain. I: Oh yeah, do you know how much it would be back then, the cloth? JG: Well, it run sometimes 10,15 cents a yard according to what... VG: Well, you can't put the [inaudible]. [Inaudible] he had surgery on his back twice, got hurt at the shop. He dropped his [inaudible]. I: Did your mother make her clothes too? �JG: Mm hm, you had to make your clothes then couldn't go there was nowhere to buy 'em. l:Hm. JG: She make 'em [inaudible]. I stayed barefooted Christmas. I never got no shoes 'til Christmas then got these ol' brogan shoes, ol' yellow shoes with brass rivets in 'em here and brass toes on 'em 'cause if you're...hard as a rock you couldn't be in 'em, skin your feet all over. You'd have sores all over your feet and your ankles. I: Goodness. JG: It was rough going, I'll tell you. I: How far did you have to walk to school? JG: Oh, it's about three miles on the way up there to Howard's Creek where Ralph Greene lives, left at the rock crusher, and right on up the creek as far as you can go. I: Oh, really? JG: Mm hm. I: How much schooling did you have? JG: Well, I went to school to the fourth grade but I never did learn nothin'. The [inaudible] didn't have no dad either I'd look after him. These Tripletts down here all of 'em have a big head and queers(?). They beat me half to death at school and do things at school to get the teachers to beat me. And uh I couldn't help it 'cause they'd just double up on me three or four get on me at a time and beat me half to death 'till I got big enough to take 'em apart. I beat two of 'em nearly to death after I got up big enough. And I broke them and the rest of 'em ain't bother me anymore. I: They've learned their lesson [chuckles]. VG: They broke once [inaudible]. JG: So uh I was [inaudible] off the road by all the young'uns up them days when I was growing up. Everybody had well... I was the same about the same as orphans, you know. My daddy's gone, my mama had to work all the time she couldn't be with me all the time. I wasn't mean; I didn't do nothin' to nobody. And Stewart Shimens(?) around here can tell you all about my life. He knows everything about it, knows how people treated me, all these old people around here. And I was treated like a dog, what you might say all my life. I have been and since I've been married, same thing. People took off me and beat off of me and you know the same three men got [inaudible]. I: Mm, why do you think they treated you like that? JG: Well, just 'cause they could get something I had, you know, might [inaudible] borrow it and never pay it back. Things like that. I've been too easy with people, let 'em go. I ain't doing it anymore, I can't. �VG: We got a son-in-law that... JG: Owes me a thousand dollars right now. VG: Just about a thousand dollars in money now. And we will not I bet you we never as long as live see every dime of it. They done, you seen that car sitting out here when you was here before. That blue car that's pushed off down there and I told you that's my son-in-law's. Well, that's the one bless your heart and they come and got it Saturday. I: They did? VG: He told us that his daddy borrowed the money for him and paid cash for that car. And honey, it was through the American Credit right up here. JG: He borrowed the money from American Credit. VG: And went back and borrowed $75 on it besides. JG: And he's not gonna pay for but he come and got it [inaudible]. VG: But you can tell her to get back on you how you used to walk ten miles a day and work. JG: Yeah, I walked ten miles a day and worked ten hours and back home, after I go back home by moonshine. I: To moonshine? JG: By moonshine. I: Oh. JG: In the woods, you know. Go to the woods, carry wood out, and cut it up-and stow in the woods. In the summertime, work ten hours and walk five miles this way, I mean ten miles this way. I: Mm and what were you doing when you were working? VG: He worked in... JG: I worked in the furniture shop [inaudible] furniture with my mom. I lived way down on Lenoir Creek... VG: And then when we was in the Depression though we, we had a terrible time. One of our children was born. JG: Me and her during the Depression dug roots and gathered herbs to buy our clothes and groceries and the baby's clothes. VG: ...buy our first baby's clothes. I: Really? �VG: I went to the mountains this is as long as I could walk. I: Goodness. JG: ...crossing the mountains with me, we'd dig roots and gather herbs, sang and stuff. I: 'Bout how much could you get for that? JG: Well, it was cheap. VG: It was cheap then. It wasn't much... JG: You couldn't get over five cents a pound now for what we had. VG: No. JG: And I had to carry it three miles down [inaudible] in the summer. Down the mountain all the way and carry it two sacks at a time on my back. I: Was it very heavy? JG: Pretty heavy, yeah. [Inaudible] I get there. I: I bet it did [chuckles]. How many children do ya'll have? VG: We've had nine but two of 'ems dead. JG: Seven living, six girls and one boy and got two boys dead. I: You said you had a child during the Depression. VG: Yes [both talking at once]. I had one good dress and one old ratty thing I'd put on 'till I washed my good one. JG: I didn't even have clothes to change in. I wore her overalls [inaudible] my marriage and she could wash mine. And I dug the ditch and worked the hill and cut the wood for 50 cents a day and had to take it to mill our flour and a piece of meat or something like that. We couldn't get a dime to [inaudible]. Nothin'... I: So, uh did ya'll have like a farm or something during the Depression? VG: No, we just lived in what they called a little sawmill shack. You know where they built shacks through the mountains, you know, to work a sawmill. And Jim worked the sawmill some after our first baby is born and then it got down to that Depression. And uh when the next baby come along, and I'd saved her clothes. If I hadn't saved her clothes [inaudible] went naked 'cause we couldn't buy none. JG: Two hours a day at the sawmill [inaudible] and saw carrying green lumber and [inaudible] out for 50 cents a day. �10 I: Mm and was this every day? JG: Everyday 50 cents a day. That's [inaudible]. You can tell these young people about what it was like [inaudible]. I: I know it. I've heard too many people say the same thing. JG: [Inaudible] I couldn't go through it again. VG: We'd go to people's houses for the raced your own hogs and they'd give us meat skins to season what little we had to season. JG: Fry the grease out of it and season your potatoes and beans or something. I: Oh would, uh were people friendlier during the Depression? VG: Yeah! We had a few good friends not too many. JG: The town built her uncle [inaudible]. VG: And then after my baby's born, my aunt give me clothes so I could wear her clothes after the baby. I: Oh and your uncle what gave you the hog skins and stuff like that. VG: No, it was another one. JG: Yeah, he gave us some. VG: Yeah, he gave us some but there was another one. What was his name? JG: Dave Frasier gave us some. VG: Yeah, yeah. JG: [Inaudible] VG: We sure had it rough, buddy. And he worked my doctor bill out at 80 cent a day. JG: Paid half of it on the doctor bill... VG: ...and half of it to get something to eat. JG: I stayed away from Blowing Rock for a long time [inaudible]. I: And where was this? JG & VG: Down in Wilkes County. I: That's where ya'll were living during the Depression, in Wilkes County? �11 VG: Yeah. I: Did it affect many of your neighbors as far as food and things? VG:Huh? I: Did the Depression urn affect many neighbors as far as food and things? VG: Oh yeah, just about everybody. I: Did the people not have enough to eat? VG: I don't know but we didn't. JG: There was a lot of 'em didn't have enough to eat. We didn't make [inaudible]. I was eating, I was telling you about walking ten miles and working at the furniture shop. I eat oatmeal for breakfast and worked on it 'till 12 o'clock and maybe make a sandwich, a peanut butter sandwich at dinner time, cold Cola and work on it 'till night and walk on home. I: I don't see how you could stand it, could take it. JG: Well, people couldn't stand it. VG: People, people at this time now is much as uh we you know have now. JG: The people... VG: If it'd come now I don't believe could live. I: No I don't think so. JG: Well there'd be a many of 'em starve to death if the government didn't take care of 'em it wouldn't work. You couldn't get people out here and work for 50 cents a day to save your life now. They wouldn't do it but I had to do it or starve to death I didn't like the stuff. I: Did you ever hear about any of the government projects during the Depression like the WPA? JG: No, well yeah we did too. They give away stuff a lot at Wilkesboro. We never could get nothing of it. VG: Yeah, we did. We got some blankets and things one time. JG: One time, yeah one time. I'm talking about food and stuff we never did get that. VG: We didn't get no food. JG: And my brother in law, he's [inaudible]. He's got his own farm and he worked for the WPA. And I signed up don't know 50 times I guess that the WPA and they never would give me a call to work. I: Hm, I wonder why. �12 JG: I don't know why they didn't but they didn't... I: I thought they would let... VG: I think they just had their picks... JG: Yeah, just certain ones that would work three days and then the other ones would work three days. And I finally [inaudible] to call Will and I didn't have any job at the shop. I finally got on a contractors job up there building that highway to Morganton and Lenoir. I got on that and worked I get to work three days... VG: And off three days. JG: ...and off three days. I think it was a dollar, a dollar and half a day [inaudible]. I worked on that till they cut me off of it and I finally got me a job in the shop between... VG: 27 cents an hour. JG: 27 cents an hour. I: What were you doing then? JG: I was working shingling with working with [inaudible] hanging the shingles things like that. Just anything about if you wanted to know, [inaudible] cut off saw, planters, sanders, two jointers, things like that. 27 cents an hour and I worked there for nine years. Well for nearly nine years before I ever got a raise. VG: Halfway left 'till September we've been married uh, 44 years. I: Really? VG: We ain't ever been apart a day in our lives. I mean he's went off to work but what I mean you know get mad and separate or something. JG: And since then, people get married and they don't get along. VG: We don't even quarrel now maybe one of us be a little nervous and might smack one off, you know. I've got bad nerves. When I was in that wreck, I took I had the epilepse [epilepsy]. I: Oh, have you ever worked any jobs? VG: Uh uh, nothing only when I was little, I dropped corn and beans and stuff like that for people. And I take it and butter and milk and take it home to eat for all of us. I: Yeah, how many were in your family? JG: Bernie and James. �13 VG: Yeah but honey, that was after mom married the next last time. JG: Six of 'em the last time, Carl, Will, Lance, Marie, and Horace. That's six. VG: Yeah but they wasn't born when I dropped corns. JG: I know, well there was just three of you. You and James and Bernie. VG: Yeah there was just three and we had a step dad and he was a terrible man to us. Lord, he'd beat us for nothin' just beat us like beatin' a dog. I: Hm, could your mother not do anything about it? VG: No, she'd try to fight him but he could outdo her. I: Did ya'll have a farm where you lived? VG: Yeah. I: Did you have to work on the farm? VG: Yeah! He'd give us, if he couldn't find nothin' else for us to do, he'd give us about acre of land to pick up rock of the bay and we better have that done when he come in or he'd whoop. I: Why would you have to pick up the rock, where would you put the rocks? VG:Take 'em off you know pull 'em off the land where was cleared you know. He'd just have us do that 'cause he couldn't think of nothin' else for us to do. And I'd have to get all the wood and carry all the water. I: Were you the oldest? VG: Yeah, yeah I was the oldest. I: Hm, do you remember... VG: Pulling drag woods out, drag wood out of the mountains and I'd have to chop it and carry it in. I: Do you remember any good times when you were little and growing up? VG: It was a dire some place. I: You were what? VG: It was a dire some place. We went out to play, he whooped us. I: Really? �14 VG: Yeah! He let one girl, one of our girlfriends, come one time. Asked him if we could goto her house and play and he told us yeah. We didn't know no better we ain't never went nowhere you know before. And when we come back, he told us how long to stay, two hours. When we come back, he said you march right to them woods and get a hickory. I: Why? VG: He whooped us for going! I: Did he tell you you could go? VG: Yes! I: Goodness. JG: He was mean, he was just an old drunk and [inaudible] 'em. I: Oh, that's just awful. JG: I'll tell you how we treated my daddy. You know, this white house on the bank down there as you go out the first one right there. Up on that hill, well Will Willy live there now and he got my daddy to cut wood for him one time when that hill was there. And my daddy was cutting wood and a log coming through down hit his shin and [inaudible]. You know what that man done? My daddy went in the house tied it up to keep it from bleeding. Come over here son and poured on his shin on that skin place and he had a sore on his leg as long as you [inaudible]. VG: Eat it up! You know carbolic acid will eat you up! l:Ew. JG: [Inaudible] And he poured that on his leg and it skinned up like that on my daddy's leg 'til a man could cure it up. And he had a sore on his leg when he died over there. I: Goodness. JG: If I had been big enough and got hold of that man, I would kill him. That's how they treated my daddy. He worked, the people would work him and they wouldn't pay him for it. They'd say I'll pay you next week or next day or two or something like that and that'd be the last of it; maybe workin' a week at a time all he got was what we were eating. l:Hm. JG: You couldn't get no 33 and 1/3 cents a day you know what you get out of a day's work then for ten hours a day. He dug a ditch for people, cut wood, cleared off lands, cut logs for people and roll 'em into hollers, and burn 'em and everything else, clean off their land for 'em. All these big mountain fields on top the mountain when you go out, he done the most of 'em. �15 l:Hm. JG: People treated him awfully dirty but there's another day coming... I: Yeah. JG: ...when they get their part and it hits you. I: Why do you think they... [END] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mr. and Mrs. Jim Greer, June 11, 1973 Description An account of the resource James Calvin Greer was born in Triplett, NC in 1908. Vera Greer was born in Caldwell County in 1913. Mr. and Mrs. Greer both recall very hard childhoods and growing up in the Triplett area. Mr. Greer worked at the local sawmill during the Great Depression. They recall collecting herbs and bark to pay for groceries and clothes. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Weaver, Karen Greer, Jim and Vera Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 15 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape74_Mr&MrsJimGreer_1973_06_11M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Triplett, NC Subject The topic of the resource Greer, James Calvin--Interviews Greer, Vera--Interviews Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Watauga Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-11 barks Caldwell County Great Depression herbs Jim Greer North Carolina roots sawmill sawmill community sawmill shack Triplett Vera Greer Wilkes County https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/918b1ffafa4a2a9fe248bbb995492337.pdf de1b7557918f512ebb32acd029a18650 PDF Text Text AUH f Y-L This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Program with Mr. C. K. Morris of Meat Camp, North .Carolina. The interview is by Mike McNeely and today's date is June 11, 1973. Q. Alright, Mr. Norris, Let's start out with talking about your, the farm you were born on. When and where were you born? A. Right up at that old house. Q. What was the year you were born? A. Eighteen and ninety-one. Q. Okay. Uh, ya...ya daddy was a farmer, right? A. Yeah. Q. How many brothers and sisters did you have? A. I had three sisters and three brothers. Q. Sounds like your daddy had a lot of help on that farm. A. Well, right much. Q. Let me get something here. Uh, how big was the farm? A. Uh... Q. Acre wise... A. Uh, you might say it's only about, about forty acres now, till we added more to it. Q. And how much of that forty acres was used for farming? A. Well, I'll say about half of it. �AOH # 71 Q. What all did you grow? A. Crowed potatoes, corn,, cabbage, wheat, rye, buckwheat. And we had our own fruit, had ? orchard with plenty of apples. We kept cows, made our milk, made butter and cheese. Kept chickens for eggs and for the market. That's about all the farming. Q. How much of the vegetables and stuff that you grew, how much of that was used for the market and how much for your own, home grown use ? A. Well, it took right much to feed all them people. I'd say about half, about half a that amount. And that, the surplus was hauled to town. It was hauled to Lenoir, Hickory, and Morganton. We bought our salt and flour and what groceries we used then out of the store, we bought with surplus, and paid on taxes. We h?d to have enough to pay the taxes. And on this farm one time, the tax was only about $4, 00, Q. Was that with all the buildings and everything on it? A. Yeah, and now I pay a hundred or more. A lot of difference. Q. Did you have hogs on your farm? A. Yes, We raised our own meat, raised our hogs, raised a few calves for the market. And there wasn't so many cattle in the county then,. like there is now. Most every family had, oh, from three to six cows. And they milked 'em-a big family used a lot of milk. And they'd sell off the calf. A plump, good calf would bring ten dollars,, ten dollars to twenty dollars, A cow would bring about twenty-five. Mow ed, mowed the meadow with a mowing siythe. You know what th$t is. Cradle it, cut the grain with a cradle- you ever seen a grain cradle? Q. I'm not sure. You got one up in your barn? A". There's one a hanging right out there in the back of that shed. Q. You shew it to me pfterwhile, and I'll get a picture of it. I saw your cniltivstor, pnd you had & plow ?nd what else? �A. We had a lay-off plow and a cultivator. Where they cleared the land - where they cleared , now they'd go in the woods and clear , like that over there. 'That mountain, one time, was in timber all over this bottom. Go in there, and cut that timber and pile it and cut it, and saw it up, so they could roll it in big piles and burn it. Burn the logs and the brush. And if it was too bad, the first year they'd dig holes sndijilant their corn and beans. Dig holes with a hoe. And by next year, thye'd take - they used 9 lot of them, ole shovel plows. Just one plow like sort a like a. cultivator, you know, a lay - off plow. They used them a lot in gauching up the land. They used mainly the hoe in the steep land. A lot of land was used , farmed and never cultivated. I mean they just dug it with a hoe. Stacked their hay, mowed with a scythe, and stacked their hay out in the meadow. You've seen hay stacks, plenty of them. Q. There's not as m^ny now, though as there were. A. No, no body stacks their hay anymore. Very few really. Back on Cove Creek way, they.stack right much hay, back toward Mountain City. Q. Did you let your hogs - I was reading somewhere that a lot of people let their hogs run free back then. A. Run their hogs, and their sheep and some cattle - run 'em out in the range. Turn 'em out in the spring and go and, go and get what was left in the fall. And everybody had fences and some cattle just run out on the outside. They had stocklaw then and everybody had a fence back when I was growing up. All the fences were made out of rails. Made out a split rails, yonder lies a pile right now. Q. How was that meat from the cows and hogs that ran free around wag -fotfesin the woods? Was it any good? ' •w ^ A. Oh yeah. Well, they'd bring 'em in now, they drove - bring •em in and put 'em in pens and feed 'em corn a while before they killed 'env And they's a lot - now some of them, they's sjpme run out and was killed just off of the mash. Had lots of chestnuts and acorns, and them hogs would get just as fat , and that was the best meat you ever tasted. A lot of -'em noe, they'd bring their hogs in, they had 'em marked, every man, you know, they'd get together. And every man had a certain mark that he knowed his hogs. And then when they brought 'em in, they'd sort 'em out. Get "em in a pen, a lot somewhere, and every fella pick 'em out. A lot of 'em'd go wild. Once in a while, they'd never get 'em. They'd be wild hogs out in the mountains. �Q. When did ya'll have your - did you have an annual kill, or you ju$t kill 'em at different times during the year of what? A. Anytime, anytime, there wasn't no slaughter pens at that time My neighbors'd go in and help each other kill hogs. Sometimes they'd kill fifteen or twenty a day. A whole lot of hands go in, keep water in big ole pots and barrels and fill a barrel. And they'd kill their hogs and drag 'em in. I've helped kill as high as twelve of fourteen in a day. Kill, maybe one man' have two or three of half a dozen. Go in and dress his'n out whatever he wanted to kill. A lot of times, they's killed one or two at, a time. They didn't go in and butcher 'em all day long lik;rthey do now. •-/• And I never treated 'em or never really took care of 'em, just kill 'em and salt the meat in big ole barrels. And where they'd stay, well I've seen old buildings was good then like that one there and they's just hanging a;; over up stairs. Did they smoke a lot of it? A. Yeah. Q. Did they smoke it instead of salt it? A. They had to salt it, It'd take salt - they had to let it take the salt and then they'd hang it up and smoke it. They salted it in them barrels and lets see, there's about a month and a half to two months and then they'd hang it up, and then they'd put that smoke under it. Q. Did the smoke give it any flavor? A. Oh yeah, that smoke flavor's real, well, you can get this breakfast bacon that's got that smokeed flavor. It was more of a smoked flavor then, when we smoked it in the ole smoke houses than they did in this bacon you buy. Q. That's sorta like getting charcoal broiled hamburgers now, get the taste of it like that? A. Yeah. Q. Well, you didn't have refrigerators or freezers back then... A. No, we didn't have no freezers, and we kept the milk and butter in the , had the spring house. Built a house right up the spring. The water run in, and they have a big ole trough as long as that car that run that the water right from the spring in there and they kept their milk and their, all of their stuff that, they like to use a freezer now. All their pickled beans and kraut and everything that stayed in that water. And it was like that, it kept it cold. And they kept their butter and they salted and canned a lot of their meat. They canned that and salted as we do yet. And they salted and tender loined and all that stuff"now, they put in cans and it'll keep right on. Q. How about your vegetables? You didn't keep them in your spring house did ya? �A. No, nothing much. We buried the cabbage, the potatoes and rutabaga and all the root crops eventually we . And we buried the cabbage and they're burying a lot of times, burying a lot of them cabbage and use 'em all winter and the dig 'em up, and sometimes there'd be a whole big field of 'em. And in the winter, they'd haul 'em to market they didn't need to use and make barrels of kraut. I've seen them ole wooden barrels - the fifty gallon barrels of kraut. And they'd haul it to market a lot of it to sell it, oh, in a pint or a quart. Just measure it out. Used to haul it to Lenior, and them niggers, you couldn't fight 'em off: of the wagon. Q. How did you make kraut? A. Well, ya have that - hack that cabbage up real fine, pack it in a barrel, put salt on it. Put so much salt. And then they weight it down, put a plank on the barrel, put a rock and then they'd put weight on it. And it'd pickle that cabbage in only a little while. It didn't take it long to pickle it. And then you'd have kraut right on. Q. Was that kraut better than what you get over at Watauga? A. Two to one better! Way better. That old chopped really good. Take a dish of that kraut on a cold and put a little sugar and black pepper on it and it raw. It's good cooked too. I love it raw and It was really good. kraut was winter day just eat do yet. Q. Do you remember any days like Christmas or Easter or your birthday or anything? What was Christmas like back when you were a child? A. Well, we didn't have much Christmas. I gotta stick or two of candy and an apple or two, and a orange once in a while. We didn't have but way little Christmas. Most kids got a few sticks of candy. Didn't have no toys. Very few toys at that time. Q. Did you have a Christmas tree? A. Sometimes we'd have a little Christmas tree. Sometimes at the closing of school, they'd have a big Christmas tree and the kids would all getta, all getta a little package, a few sticks of candy, orange, apple or two, and that's about it. Baked ole molasses sweet bread for a cake. I love it now better than anything you can buy. Q. You ever make molasses yourself? �A. Oh yeah, we made our own molasses. Q. How do you do that? A. Well you grow the cane and pull the fodder off of it. Go in and top and pull the fodder off and run it through them rollers and catch the juice. Run it through a cane mill. You ever see a cane mill? Q. I think so, yeah. A. Two; big ole rollers, and you ground with a horse. Horse pulled it. Big ole pole round and it just went round and rounf. Stick that cane in and it squeezes juice out. And they had a furnace and a big ole boiler sitting on it. And they boiled that sown and made molasses. I've ground cane a many a time till I'd just about freeze. And then the kids'd come on and play on the cane stalks and have a good time. Boiling molasses, ah, nearly every family back then made their own molasses. Some of 'em made a hundred gallon or two. But the average family didn't make but twenty or forty gallon. And then they didn't have to have much sugar. Sweetened a lot - and they made tree syrup. Q. Maple syrup? A. Maple syrup - maple sugar. I can remember my mother sweetening her berries and fruits with the maple sugar. They'd have big ole dishpans full of it and just go and shave off whatever they wanted and put it in their fruit. Q. Mr. Walter was telling about a guy that still does that, when he makes pis molasses, he just boils it on down to sugar, cakes it up, and goes and sells it to the stores. A. Oh yeah, there's a few that still makes that tree sugar and tree syrup. Q. Did your mother use that much in her jellies when she was making it? A. Well,,1 don't know whether they used it much. They didn't make much jelly at that time. I don't know whether they used any in jelly or not. They could have, I guess. I guess it would really be better flavor than the white sugar now. I can remember when you could buy brown sugar. They got it in big barrels. I've got some barrels now. Four hundred pounds of brown sugar and you could buy it for $20.00, five cents a pound. And the white sugar was a little bit higher. And they weighed it out in, from a pound on up to whatever you wanted. Dipped it out with' a scoop and put it in bags. Q. Yeah, its already bagged up. A. Yeah, it's up to four hundred pounds usually in a bag. And a, and the first fertilizer that ever come to this county come in barrels. Two hundred pounds in a barrel. �Q. What did you use before fertilizer, before it came in the barrels? A. We didn't use it. We didn't have it. We just planted without it. Q. Did you use any, like cow manure or anything? A. Yeah, we used what manure we had. We used manure, and the earth growed the rest of it. Q. How about the feed for the animals? Did you just feed them some corn that you grew or did you go buy some of that or grind it up... A. Well, we ground into, I had it ground, some of 'em fed the biggest part of it just whole. Feed your cattle whole. They had some ground. They'd have the buckwheat and rye, they had the small grains ground, but most the corn was just fed whole. Wasn't no hammer mills. Just a flour mill and a corn mill was all the mills there was then. There wasn't no thing as a hammer mill. All water power. Back yonder all the mills in this country was run by water. Big whole water wheels, you've seen 'em. Q. Like down at Mr. Winebarger's mill? A. We take wagon loads of grain up there, of buckwheat, raised buckwheat, and go and have it ground and then use a lot of it for flour. And ole buckwheat cakes are good. And then they haul it. They'd have that flour ground and put in ten, twenty-five pound bags and haul it to Lenior and all down south, Lenior, Morganton, Hickory, Statesville. And sell to the stores. Swap it for wheat flour and we bought our salt. We'd buy a hundred pounds of salt for sixty cents ($.60) then. Q. Wow! A. In Lenior, that's what it cost. Q. Did you truck it down the mountain in wagons? A. Oh yeah, there wasn't no trucks. Done it all in wagons. Q. How were the roads? A. Muddy a lot of the time. Real muddy. Sometimes there'd be a row of wagons as far as from here to the creek, right along together. And they'd all camp out of the night, tie our horses and cattle up and feed 'em. Lot of time we got to make our bed on the ground under the wagon. After we'd get a load off - after we'd get a load off the wagon, then we'd have hay and stuff we'd fetch on our load for our produce, you know, and then we'd sleep in the wagon. And it was fun when the weather was good. I'd enjoy it now. But it was rough going, when it was pouring rain or snowing. Q. You had to go in the winter? �A. Oh yeah. We'd go when it was cold weather. Oh, we had a lot of apples then. Haul apples, potatoes, chestnuts, beans, shale wheat, buckwheat flour, meat, butter, and stuffed hams - people then sold a lot of hams. The farmers have more meat than they could use, and they'd haul them and sell them to the stores. And you didn't see much loaf, well, in this part of the country they didn't. Very seldom did you see a loaf of bread in the store. They didn't - well down in the bigger towns you could get loaves of it some places. And you go in and you could buy sausage and beef and . We done our own cooking. It was fun. Build a fire outside and cook potatoes and cabbage; we didn't take time to cook beans. Fried taters and onions. Tie our team up and feed 'em and while they were eating, we'd get supper or breakfast. Fry eggs and meat. And hit was they was a lot of fun in it. Whole lot of hard work and hardships too. Q. Do you remember any incidences where a wagon didn't make it all the way down? Where there any that ran off the road? A. Well, not much. There's a woman or two got killed, run off the road on a wagon, way down at Blowing Rock Mountain. And once in awhile they'd be a team run away and tear up everything. But not hardly ever hear tell of any. Once in awhile you hear tell of a train running over a team and killing them. And it took about four days to go, four or five days to go to Lenior and back, sell your load out. Took about two days to go and get your load off and get back home - and two more to get back. And if it was slow selling, it took another day Sometimes you'd see twenty-five or thirty wagons in town selling produce. They peddled a lot; they'd go from house to house, done a lot of peddlin'. And sometimes they'd buy half a bushel of potatoes, apples, bushel - bushel of potatoes, maybe, and a bushel of apples. Oh, the next house, maybe they didn't want nothing, maybe the next one you'd go to would buy something. That's the way we got rid of a loy of it. Q. What was the price of farm products back then? A. Well, potatoes was a dollar or less a bushel. And apples sixty cents to a dollar a bushel. And cabbage was seventyfive cents to a dollar a hundred. Now we didn't get eight or ten cents a pound back then like they do now. Q. Did your mother, here at the house, did she bake a lot? A. Yeah, they baked corn bread and biscuits, fried buckwheat cakes , made light - homemade, light bread, baked pies, cookies, sweet bread, that ole molassey bread. And that was all done in an ole skillet by the fire. Q. When did ya'll - ya'll get a wood stove? �A. Finally, I can remember. I helped work out money to buy the first wood stove my mother ever had to cook on. Q. Which did she like better, working on the fireplace or the cookstove? A. Oh, it was much better to have a cookstove. Easier to do the cooking, than it was by the fireplace. But that ole cornbread and light bread baked in them ole skillets, it would melt in your mouth. It was the best cornbread I ever eat. She had a great big ole oven she baked light bread in. Loaf bread, they call it now. A great big thing. And she'd mix her - make up her yeast and get her dough ready, put it in that big ole oven and she just heated it real slow, barely warm, you know. And it'd rise a way up - just puff a way up there. Be that thick. And then she'd put coals under it and she had a lid to fit it, a cast iron lid. And it'd rise up there, and she put the coals on that thing, heat it slow and after a while it'd just finally turn - when it got done, there'd be a good brown crust on it. And it was really good. A lot better than this bread you buy now. Q. How often did she bake? A. Oh, only once in a while. Maybe every two or three weeks, to make that light bread. They didn't bake it every day. They made biscuits and I can remember when most people, they eat cornbread for breakfast and biscuits every Sunday morning. You wouldn't believe that. Q. I believe it. I love cornbread. A. I do too. I eat it, most the time, twice a day. They didn't have wheat flour to make biscuits every day. And you used eggs and shortening on the old cornbread, and it like you do biscuits and it was pretty good. Q. Did you ever have corn fritters? A. Yeah, I've seen my mother bake corn sweet bread. Bake it like they did the ole molassey bread, put molasses in it and it was good. But I'd rather have that old molassey sweet bread now than to have any you could go to the store and buy. They baked what they called gingerbread. Great big, thick. They baked it in cake, make them cakes to fit the skillet. It was really good. Put ginger in it and that ole gingerbread was hard to turn down, when you're hungry. Q. Your mother had to buy a lot of spices at the store didn't she? A. Yeah, they bought the grain spice and ground it. �10 Q. Really? Did you have one of those things like a pepper thing that you ground? A. Ground the coffee - ground the coffee in the bean. They bought that coffee green and they parched it, parched that coffee and they - seen my mother a many a time parch that coffee in a one, them ole skillets. And they had a coffee mill. I've ground coffee - you seen them, hadn't ya? Q. Yeah. A. Hold it between your knees, grind that coffee. The coffee then, now you got real coffee then. There wasn't no dope in it. Q. Did they do the spices the same way? A. leah, done the spices the same way. Pepper. Gosh, that ole pepper. You get it in the grain and grind it, you didn't have to make anything black to taste it. Ah, it's a gettin' now, you can make your egg black now, and hardly taste it. Q. How about, did they dry a lot of stuff? A. Dried berries, fruit, dried berries, apples, cherries of all kind. Beans, dried beans, dried pumpkins, they dried a lot of stuff. I can remember when my mother didn't have more than two or three dozen cans. Dry that stuff and cook it. And them ole dried beans, they was worth it. Q. I've heard of drying apples - I've seen people drying apples and beans and all. But I've never seen 'em dry cherries or blackberries. How did they do it? A. They used to dry lots of blackberries and cherries. And they didn't do too much canning and they didn't have no way of freezing it. Q. How did they do it? Do you remember? V A. Well, they had grates, and they had good, big crates they'd put 'em on. And when the sun shined good, they put 'em out on.... Q. The apples they'd slice up and cook.... A. Slice up and dry it out. They dried the bigger part of their fruit at that time. Dried sweet potatoes. My daddy used to grow a lot of sweet potatoes. He didn't grow 'em for the market. He'd just grow 'em to have plenty to use. They cooked them and sliced 'em up and put 'em on crates. And when it rained, they'd take 'em in and set them around the fireplace, so that if they ever stayed out in the weather, they's spoil. You had to keep them dry. Q. Back then you had the spring houses, right? So that's where you got your water. When did you build your well out here? �XX A. Oh, it's been about forty-two years or longer. Q. Where was your spring house located? A. We didn't even have a spring house here. There's a spring down under the bank there that we used - we just had a box down there. And we kept pur milk and stuff to keep it cold in there 'til we dug the well. I was aiming to pump the water from over yonder, but the spring went dry. And the people built way up on the hill somewhere and they carried their water up the hill. Why, they'd carry, some families would carry as far as from here to the hog house over yonder. Didn't think about a well or a pump. No, carried their water from the spring/ Q. How often did you take baths back then? A. Well, once a week, and you're lucky to do that. Q. If you had to carry water that far, you wouldn't take it very often. A. Didn't have no bathroom in the houses. Outside toilets. They wouldn't such a thing as a bathroom in the house. No where in this county and its not been many years so there wouldn't a bathroom in none of the houses that are here, in this part of the county. Q. How big was the house you were born in? A. Oh, it had about four, four to five, five rooms, I guess. And some places, they just had one or two big rooms, old log houses. Three or four beds in one room and the kids slept in little beds you pushed under the big ones. Q. Yeah, tumble beds. I've seen those. A. And they didn't have a whold lot of room, like they build houses now. Wasn't a bedroom in every little corner. Q. Did your mother have to make all your clothing? A. Bigger part of it. Weave, she had a loom and she'd weave the cloth, weave clothing - made our clothing. And they made shoes. There were men had shoe shops round and made most of them, wore homemade shoes - men and the women. They had a few shoes in the store, but the bigger part of the farmers wore homemade shoes. A lot of the women - the women's dresses drug the ground. And they wore button shoes up about that high. You never seen them, did ya? �JL/C Q. I've seen pictures of them. A. And the dresses drug the ground. Q. Did they go to the store and buy the cloth to make their own dresses? A. Well, they went to the store and bought some, but the most part was homemade. Wove at home. My mother had - she'd card the wool and spin it. She had them spinning wheels and then she had a tig ole.Toom that she wove that cloth. I've wore homemade clothes many a time, many a day. And they'd make their underwear. They didn't wear much underwear, like they do now. They'd make their pants and coats and vests and all like that out of homemade - outa wool. That old wool'd get next to the hide, it'd just scratch ya. It'd rip you to death. Wool and they knit your mittens and knit our scoks, outa that homemade wool. Q. She didn't have a sewing machine, did she? A. No, my mother never had a sewing machine in her life. Q. She did all of it by hand? A. Did it by hand. My aunt done a lot of sewing for people. She had a sewing machine. Lived up the road here. But my mother done all her sewing by hand. And the bigger half of the women did it. Made their own dresses and their men's clothes and everything by hand - sewed by hand. Q. They made their quilts too, didn't they? A. They made their own quilts. Wove their own blankets. Old yarn blankets. Now that old wool blanket, it'll keep you warm. Q. Scratch you to death, but keep you warm. A. They was really good and they'd last for years and years. Had feather beds. They kept geece, and picked your feathers out of them and made bedx. I sleep on a feather bed all year round now. We've got two or three feather beds. My mother made it in her life time. And I still sleep on it. Q. Was the church really important in this community? A. Well, more than it is today. About everybody walked to church And ole timey preacher. And they got up there and preached, we sat on ole benches. Had four legs on 'em shaved out of a round piece like a chair post. No back. Hardly a few of 'em had benchs of this - seats made out of plank. But back as Ion as I can remember they sat on them old split logs. And they all went and they enjoyed the meeting, they enjoyed the sermon. And sometimes the preachers had to walk four or five miles. And he's get maybe fifty cents or a dollar for two sermons. And they all - and the preaching was over and they all walked out and ever - out this road they all walked together. Where �13 one or two would drop out, and they'd stand and talk and they enjoyed themselves, much more than they do now. Q. How often did you have meetings? A. Well, they had it once a month, a lot of churches. Just have it once a month, two services. Then they'd run a week or two of revival, sometime during the year, usually in the fall of the year. And they'd have a - have a real, live one. One of 'em get happy and they'd really have a time. Q. Was the preacher a hell-fire, brimstone preacher? a mild one? Or was he A. Well, they - sometimes there'd be one preacher for eight or ten years before they change. And then maybe they'd set a new one amd maybe he'd serve a good many years. Now they have to have a new one about every twelve months, don't they? A lot of churches. They change right often. Q. Did the preacher - what type of sermons did he preach? Did he tell the people what they were doing wrong or did he tell 'em something they wanted to hear, like... A. Ah, he went to the Bible for it. Told 'em their wrong doing. Q. What church did you attend? A. Meat Camp. Right over here. I went ot differnet churches. Went to Howard's Creek. You know where Howard's Creek is? Went there part of the time and went to the Rich Mountain to that church. Sometimes we'd go way down yonder to Fairview way down toward the river. People wasn't too selfish where they went to then. Now they have to - there wasn't so many churches as there is now. Built a lot more as time passed by. Q. Were there a lot of community activities centered around the church? A. Well, not too much. Not like it is now. Q. Did ya'll have any square dances then? A. No, they wasn't no - wasn't nothing of that kind a going on in this part of the country. Q. What did ya'll do for recreation, when you weren't farming? A. Well, we'd go a fishing or squirrel huntin1 or something of that kind. Q. What did you do when you were courtin'? A. Well, we walked out there to our girlfriend, whereever she might be. Sometimes we'd go to church, sometimes we'd walk out and pick cherries in the summertime. Sometimes they'd have a candy pullin'. Gatherin' in all and have music. Not too much dancing. There wasn't many people could dance. �Q. Did they "flatfoot" a lot around here? A. Well, not too much. Q. What type of music did you have? A. Had a fiddle and a banjo. Once in a while a guitar, French harp. My daddy and a neighbor, they went lots of places and made music. My daddy was a fiddler and my neighber was a banjo-picker. They'd go to the closing of the school, sometimes to a neighbeor's house, make music - a few of the neighbors would come in. They'd just set and enjoy it. Close of the school, they usually had 'em come in. They'd give 'em a dollar or two at the close of the school. Q. Tell me something about the school around here, like the size of it, and the people in it? A. Well, these old school houses where they walked, I've known teachers to walk five or six miles to teach school. And there wasn't too many One teacher was all they had, and they teached up to about the seventh grade. And then they had to go - they went to Boone then to finish up. The eighth or tenth grade, something like that. Go to Boone - go to town for the rest of it. Q. Tell me about life during the Depression. A. Well, we got enough to get by with, but it was hard going, we just had to work a day or two to get a little chew meal to help. And we're lucky to get by with it. People didn't have enough to eat. They got by, but Their clothes were pretty bad, hard to get a day's work. Dug roots and drained the wood and dug roots and gathered herbs to help keep clothing and something to eat. Q. How about - were there a lot of moonshiners? A. No, not much. There's never been - oh there's a few around. Right many in Wilkes County. And if they had to get something to drink, they went to Wilkes and got the most ot it. I can remember when you could buy corn whiskey for sixty cents a gallon, and it was pure corn. And they was - there was one man that made it, I'll never - my mother got some for my grandmother once, take it back here between here and Todd, on the Big Hill. He had a bonded outfit and they come around and check 'em once in a while. Gaugers would come around they wasn't allowed to have so many barrels, you know. He'd come around and they always knowed when he was coming, then they would get it down to where they wasn't in no trouble. And theycould sell - I don't know how much they's allowed to sell. I was too little to know much about it. �15 Q. Do you remember any government programs? the CCC? Such as the WPA and A. No, no, well, I remember when the WPA worked here. They bought 'em a lot of mules to farm with. They were army mules that was brought here when the war was over with Germany. And they had people take 'em and work 'em. Farm 'em too, try to raise 'em something to eat. And they worked 'em on the road. They worked a whole lot - the WPA worked at a building that highway , They let 'em work ehm mules, to farm with and, I don't know, they all just gor old. Last one I ever knowed of, well it had a picture of him. An old white mule and man a following the plow. And they said the best they could estimate his age, he was fifty-five years old. He was a relief mule. Q. Oh, the mule was fifty-five years old. A. He was fifty-five years old, the best they could estimate his age. H<=: was still a pulling the plow. I never did get one, I didn't use 'em. Had my own work horse. We plowed it off a lot, plow, harrow with 'em, seen'a few worked a mowing machine. But they was too slow to do much more with a machine Most of it was with things like that out there. Pitch fork, I've seen 'em use. I've seen 'em use old hoemmade pitchforks, three-prong, I've got one. I'll show it to you. I've got one that I guess is two hundred years old. Q. You've given us a lot of information. I've just got one more question. What's your philosophy of life? Do you have one? A. No, I don't think I have one. Q. Why do you think you've lived as long as you have? getting along pretty good here. A. Well I just worked hard all my life. day, eat cornbread. You're Drink lots of water every Q. Molasses bread too. A. Molasses bread and I get along pretty good. Q. Have you got anything you'd like to add to what we've already talked about? A. No, I couldn't think of anything more that would be of any interest to you. Q. Well, thank you very much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scnajet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with C.K. Norris, June 11, 1973 Description An account of the resource C.K. Norris was born in 1891 in Meat Camp, North Carolina where he grew up on a farm. Mr. Norris talks mostly about growing up on the farm, such as raising crops and livestock. His family would haul their produce to Lenior, Hickory, and Morganton to be sold. Mr. Norris talks a lot about food throughout the interview including how to dry fruits and vegetables, make sauerkraut, use spices properly, grind coffee, salt meat, and make maple syrup. He also describes other aspects of his childhood including church, school, and the Great Depression. Mr. Norris also talks about WPA's affect in the Meat Camp area. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNeely, Mike Norris, CK Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 15 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape71_CKNorris_undatedM001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Meat Camp, NC Subject The topic of the resource Norris, C. K.--Interviews Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century United States--Work Projects Administration Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-11 C.K. Norris cane mill church dried beans dried fruit farming Great Depression Hickory hogs Lenior livestock Meat Camp Meat Camp Church molasses Morganton North Carolina sauerkraut spices spring house wagon weaving WPA https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/27b53db1ad01c1f3a826eda7b31264f6.pdf cb874bf7faff180b24891f6117d6ed17 PDF Text Text AOHP #$7 This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Project on April 10, 1973. The interview is with Mr. L.E. Tuckwiller, County Agricultural Extension Agent for Watauga County. The interview is being conducted by Joy Lamm. Q: Mr. Tuckwiller, you have been county extension agent for how long now? At Thirty years this last February. Q: Are you going to be here thirty more? At No. I expect about another year and a half or two years will get my tenure filled out. Qt Was this your first job? At No. I worked for a cooperative, coming out of school, for seven years - Farmer's Cooperative over in Cherokee and Clay County, N.C. Qt What kind of cooperative? At It was handling feed, farming supplies. At that time we were making some butter, and also we were pasteurizing some milk, and got into bottling milk before I 16ft there. We were processing farm products and selling supplies also* Q; Was this a large farming area? A: No, it's a very small farming area. Farms are small - well, I would say an average of 30-1*0 acres per farm. Most of the farmers had from one to five cows and sold a little surplus milk. They also, at that time, were keeping a large number of chickens - by large number, I mean most of them had a few chickens which amounted to a large number in the area. Cur cooperative purchsed the eggs, ran trucks through the community. We purchased the eggs and purchased the chickens« That was before broilers got to be very prominent, so we purchased what we call fryer chickens, and roasters0 They were fryers after they weighed about h Ibs., they they were called roasters after they got above that. So we did quite a bit of business that way. Qs And then you pulled these and sold them at a market? At Sold them mostly in Atlanta, Georgia. We had a truck that usually carried the produce to Atlanta each week* Thay would take some live chickens, some eggs and �often times some butter, processed and packaged of course. We would bring back farm supplies, and also, often times we would bring back feed. Qs Now what years were these? Aj That was 1931| - 19U2. I graduated from Berea in 193U, June, and went directly to this cooperative. The post office was Brasstown, N.C, I left there in February of 19U3 to come over here. Qs And so your only training before then was at Berea? At At Berea, yes. In the meantime, since I'*ve been working here, I've been to workshops and extension courses. I've taken k of their three-week summer sessions. I've had numerous week-long sessions of training, what we call in-service training. I couldn't count those, there's been many of them, usually 2-U a year. So you count 30 years, there were probably 75-100 of those week-long sessions. Q: Plus working in the cooperative was probably the best trainifeg you could get, wasn't it? As That was good training, yes. Q: What was your job in the cooperative? A: When I started I was called the butter-maker. I made the butter, processed the sour cream. I did that for approximately a year, then I was promoted to manager of the Cooperative Feed Store, and as that I was kind of kicked upstairs to an office. Someone else took over the butter-making, and I suppose that would be the title you would call me through the other six years that I was there. But, of course, we grew from a small butter-making plant. We began to handle poultry and eggs and more feed and supplies in 1937> so it increased in volume from, oh, I think we had sales of something like $i|0,000 - $50,000 the first year, and it ran up to about $250,000. QJ What was the name of the co-op? A: Mountain Valley Cooperative, Inc. It's defunct at the present time,, Went out of business after we quit the manufacture of butter from sour cream collected from farm to farm0 You see, the Health Department got into that a little bit. �Qt How did you make the butter? A: The sour cream came to us in containers, cans , and we pasteurized it and made the butter in those large churns - well, not a large churn - we would make from 300-500 Ibs. of butter at a time, but it wasn't large. Of course, they have churns that will make k or f> tons of butter at a time. Qs Was this electric or hand operated? A: It was electric. The churn and the pasteurizer was electtic. Of course, we had the steam boiler that produced the heat for pasteurization - just a process we went through. Q: And did you have a factory? A: It was a small factory - I'd guess you would call it a small factory. The building was about 100' X 1 0 I believe. Run one way kO1 and then we had the |' boiler room to the back. It was a small unit. Q: Getting back to Berea, could you tell me about your schooling there; what you studied, and what you remember about the school? As Well, it was a four-year collegej a small college, with only about liOO students when I went there. They did away with the section they called normal school, and they built it up to around 800 by the time I left there. I went in 1930, right in the bottom of the Depression, and then it was coming out of the Depression a little bit in 193U» when I completed there. Qs What was it like going to school during the Depression? A: Well, I suppose it might have been easier going to school during the Depression than any other time, because you couldn't get a job, and if you could make enough to kino, of keep going, why you could feel like you had been occupied. So, I didn't have any money, and Berea was a very economical school to attend - I worked 2 hours during the week, and on Mondays when we didn't have classes. I usually tried to work from U-6 hours, and of course our wages were Iow0 I think I started in around 1U# an hour and worked up to 2£# an hour, which is not quite the minimum wage now! I was able to go through school - I think I had something like $165 when I went there- �I borrowed from the strident fund, worked, and got out owing approximately $300, Probably did pretty well. I worked through h years, stayed at the school during the summer months, and worked - first summer I worked in a broom factory carrying broom corn to the broom makers. Then I worked in the shipping department the latter part of the summer. The other two years I worked in the creamery. That's where I learned to make butter, pasteurize the milk, make cheese, so it was a learning experience even while I was working. Qs And this is what got you interested in the Job with the co-op? At I expect it was. At that time, jobs were very scarce. A few of the boys got jobs teaching - or boys and girls - got jobs teaching. When that was over, there were not many that were employing college graduates for more than just manual labor, and I felt very fortunate to get a job; even though the salary was very low, it was a job. Q: Inhere was your family living during these depression years? As My family was on the farm, or were paying on a farm in Greenberry County, West Virginia, and they were lucky to keep their payments up, and they were not able to help me. Also, the two sisters at that time were just finishing high school and were ready to go to college. They finally wound up going about a term each, but they didn't go through. But if there had been a little more money, they probably would have. Qt Were you born and raised in West Virginia? AJ Yes, I was. Qs Was this in the mountainous section? A« Yes, it's not quite as mountainous as around Boone, but over where we were raised it was what they called the rolling lando And, part of it got up on the mountains also, but we had land you could get machinery over. It wasn't quite the one-horse farm you find in some of the steeper mountains0 It was a 200-acre farm quite a. bit of land involved, Q: T/fes there coal mining going on around there, or was it agricultural? �A: It was agricultural entirely,. There was coal mining approximately 25 miles away. We were - well, later than that it came a little closer when it got to strip mining. But, we just at that time, some few were beginning to go to the coal fields for work, because the roads were built just before that; they had hard surfaced road, and they begun to get automobiles and trucks dependable enough to take a transport to and from the coal mines. Up until that time, we were strictly agricultural, and that was the only kind of work we had available. There was not much money. I can tell people we grew up in poverty, but we didn't know it, se it didn't make too much difference I guess* Qt Did you make and have the things you needed from the farm? A: Most things we made. We bought, I think my mother had the few chickens. She made some homemade butter. She sold butter and eggs to get sugar, salt, coffee. As I remember, that was most of the things we purchased. The rest of the things we got our meat, vegetables, wheat for the flour - most everything was produced right there on the farm. Q* When were you born? A: September 16, 1908. Qi Were you at home when the Depression started? Ai I was - yes, I suppose. I finished high school in 1?29 and I got a job working on a neighborhood sawmill, immediately after finishing high school, and my application for college; I planned to work a year to try to get a little money to go to school on. Actually, the Depression hit, started in 1930, and that's the year I started to Berea, So, I had my application in, had been accepted, and was planning to go when things begun to really tighten down. Q: When you growing up on the farm, did your family farm by planting by the signs, or did they have any superstitions regarding fanning? AJ We heard about those all along, but as a rule we paid no attention to them. My father was not much on signs, neither was my mother, so we planted when the ground was dry, and we farmed when the weather was suitable, so I heard very little �about the signs when I was growing up from my family. Now there were people in the neighborhood who did farm by signs. They did certain jobs when the signs were right and only when they were right. I heard them, but I never grew up believing in them very much. Q; Do you remember any particular superstitions? A: Oh, I heard quite a number of things. If you planted when the sig.i was in Twin, I believe, it was suppose to yield a good crop0 If you planted when the moon was on the decrease, your bacon and fat would shrivel up when hogs were killed. Several things I heard, but I don't remember too many of them. Qs It was a whole lot easier to just go on and do what you wanted to do. At I tiling so, yes. Qs Did your mother help your father on the farm? As Not too much, except my mother always did the milking in the summertime and my father was working in the fields* Usually in the winter months, my father took over that chore. My mother always tended to her chickens, those were hers. She took care of those0 The rest of it, my father pretty well took care of. My mother was there were six of us children born just two years apart then, for 11 years, so she had her hands full at the house. I was the oldest of six. She didH have much time to get out in the farm. She would help occasionally. In hay harvest, she would get cut and what we call hitch hay shocks, bringing hay into the stacks. Or, she would drive the wagon hauling the hay sometimes, something like that. Q: What about your sisters? Did they have different tasks to do than the boys? A: They had their household tasks to do, and as I remember, one of them would-it kind of rotated-one of them would wash dishes, one of them would peel potatoes and prepare �the vegetables, and one of them would carry in the wood-that got to be-we cooked with a. wood stove-it was a right smart little chore sometimes. My father and I did a lot of that, but during the summer months, why, that usually fell to the girls. They carried the wood in from the wood shed, saw that everything was ready for the fire. The water was on the back porch. Had an old well bucket, so they had to draw the water at certain times. Some few things like that that I remember. Q: Had your family been in that area for several generations? A: Yes. The old family farm had been in the family since this area was settled, because that area, the colonists from Virginia began to spill over in there, about the 1^70's, sometime in there. Some of the little tales that I can remember about some of the ancestors that had been in there. Around 1785, something like that—they had been there for a long time. Q: What are some of the tales that you remember? -A: Well, the tales, of course the ones that are scary, and things like that, would be the Indian raids. One that my grandmother used to tell was pouring scalding water through the puncheon floor to scald an Indian that had crawled under the floor to try to get into the house. Of course, that would be one I would remember, something like that. Then, about hearing the Indians at night-acting like- making sounds like hoot owls communicating with each other across from the home, and barring the door-keeping everything closed. I remember those kind of things0 Qt Did they ever have any attacks? At Not right in our immediate community. There was a fort some 8 or 10 miles away that did have and Indian attack-in fact, I think it was burned. I believe one time, but there was none right in our immediate community0 Q: What was the name of the fort? �A: Fort Donneley. Q: This was in your grandmother's day? At No, it was before my grandmother. My grandmother was born about 1852 or 1853• That was after the Indians were driven out. Ail these tales were before, just something passed down by her parents or grandparents, or something. There was no Indian there when my grandmother was, as far as I know. She said there was bears and deer. I heard them tell about seeing deer go through the clearings they hacked out of the woods, things like that. Q: Did they have some Civil War stories? As Tes. There were some Civil War stories. They were pretty well on the border, and I think seme of the people went to each army, so there was-I don't know of any brothers against brothers, but I've heard some tales of some cousins against cousins on different sides. There was always an alert to - if the soldiers of either side were coming, they were to hide in the woods or somewhere„ Qi Who was to hide? AJ The family-the women and children would hide. Qs Oh, the whole family would go hide? AJ Yes, they would particularly try to take care of the horses because the horses were essential to the farm. So they would try to hide the horses0 There's one tale-this is limestone country-and ther's one tale that they took the horses of anyone to a limestone cave and took them back into where they couldn't hear the horses of any soldiers Cavalry that came by. Those were scary tales too, you know. Q: The soldiers on both sides would come through and just take whatever they wanted? A: Yes, that seemed to be the idea, that if either side would come through, they would �pick up anthing was loose. If there was a cow or calf, they would drive it off, you see. If they found any potatoes, why, they would take them. That's all "hear say", but I would suspect that there is quite a bit of truth in it. Q: What side was your family on? A: Most of my family was on the Soughern side-Confederate side. My father's people were all, and my mother's people were divided somewhat. There was two sections of those. One brother had already migrated to down of the Ohio River, which is 150 miles further northwest, and they were very definitely Yankees, but the ones right there in the community I suppose they had more Southern sympathy than they had for the Northern. The next door neighbors was a Northern soldier so-both ways. Qs Do you remember any stories about hiding runaway slaves? As No, I suppose that, evidently, not many went through that areao I think that most of the slaves headed further East into-up Harper's Ferry, West Virginia. Of course, that was Virginia until Civil War time<> West Virginia was cut off because what is now West Virginia wanted to go with the confederacy. That's really the reason the state of West Virginia was formed I guess, when you get basically down to it. Q: Your family migrated from Virginia? A: Yes, they migrated from Virginia. They came with the colonies from-well, actually we don't know what ship the ancestors came over on or anything like that, but they were with the Jamestown Settlement, but they might have been, I don't know. Qt You had never been down to Norht Carolina until you came down after col- lege? As I came down after finishing college and got a job. Qj What were the farming conditions like when you first came to this area �10 30 years ago? At Well, most everyone depended on their farm for their income, whether it was, whether they actually farmed or whether they did business with the fanners such as the fertilizer dealers and the merchants. The biggest payroll of course was Appalachian State University, as it still is. We had, the census gave us around 2600 farms, and the income about l^g million, total sales during the year, so you see, there wasn't really a lot of money floating around<, Part of it was what we would now call "Subsistence farming", with making most everything that you used at the farm, on the farm, and in the home. We didn't buy a lot. I guess the grocery stores would say we didn't buy anything much, Q: What portion of the farm products were marketed? AJ We were producing at that time quite a number of vegetables. In I9k3> when I came here-the second World War in progress-we were growing cabbage, snap beans. Irish potatoes for sale. We were also "growing some beef cattle, a large number of farmers kept sheep and sold sheep and lambs. Then there were poultry and eggs on a good many farms at that time. So, we sold vegetables, livestock, livestock products, and eggs, poultry. Qt Did the family use most of what they produced? Aj Depending on the size of the farm. The small farmers used a higher pro- portion of what he produced-total poduetions-thah the larger farmers. Of course, the larger farmers sold quite a volume of their produce. I would say of the amount produced was actually sodl or more, and livestock, it would be 9/10 I expect, because they would produce enough, where 1/10 of what they produced would supply their needs. Q: How did you define1 "subsistence" then? A: Well, what we mean by subsistnece was what that most of them raised all that they needed on the farm, and then sold the surplus. Q: Were there outside laborers that worked on the farm? �n A: Usually neighbors. The small farmers would work on their own farm part of the year, and then work for their neighbors part of the time. Q: And the neighbor would pay them cash? AJ Cash, or pay them sometimes in farm produce, swap labor with them sometimes. There wasn't an awful lot of cash to change hands, but some of it did, of course. Q: What were your main markets—the main commodities produced? As The vegetables were sold through-at that time we had, well Goodnight Bro- thers were operating at Hollar's Produce, At time to time other large farmers would have some produce. As trucks,- began to come in, we got more and more of the outside truckers coming in buying a truckload of cabbage, a truckload of beans. The biggest bean market in the world at that time was at Mountain City, Tennessee. We had a bean market there. We had a small bean auction market here in Boone for a while, and there's also one in West Jefferson. Some of the towns south and east of here, such as Charlotte, and Gastonia, were good markets for farm products. Farmers began to get pick-up trucks. They would load a pickup, or maybe a larger truck, with cabbafe, beans, apples-take off down there for 2 or 3 days and sell a load* Potatoes were a Mg item. We could store potatoes all winter. Q: What did the Goodnight Brothers and the Hollars do? A: They shipped their produce by the truckload, to the terminal markets—Atlanta Charlott$, and up the Eastern Seaboard-Washington, New York. I've even heard of sine if tgen giubg as far as Boston. Some went to Louisiana. That used to be a pretty big market for cabbage in the late summer, so they distributed wherever they could find a marketo Q: Did they use the railroads at all the ship the produce? A: Some. But, most of them went by truck* They could load up in Boone and be in Washington, D.C. the next day. The railroad was a little slower. A good many �12 of the livestock, cattle and sheep, were shipped by train to the processing plants in New York City, Baltimore, Maryland. Usually our produce would head East and North, because you could get it from the West in to New York a little later in the season0 • We were a little bit earlier than some of the northern markets• Q: Ai Were there any local trucking companies? There were some local trucks. Sometimes you would find people that would gather up a load and take it to these markets themselves. Some fortunes were made that way, and some were lost too, from what I hear. A rather risky business. Q: Do you know the names of any of the people who did that? A: Well, the Critcher brothers, Fred Critcher and his f?mily, were one of the ones that I remember making a pretty big success of it. They are still in the business. Then the Hollars family was into it. Of course, the Goodnights, that's the way they started,, They started with, I think, if I remember tales I've heard. They started with just a wagon and horses, hauling cabbage and potatoes to the East or Southeast, selling them that way. It grew into a very successful business. The Cooks, McNeils, Browns, you could just about name any family.':and you would find somebody that's done a little bit of that trucking trying to get produce to the market. Q: Were there any particularly larger farmers when you first came here? A: Well, yes, there were some large farms. Most of the large farms were livestock because they could handle livestock with less labor than the vegetable farm. That's, in what we would call large fawns, there really was not any. I expect the largest would be 1 0 - 0 acres with £0-68 acres cultivation |050 which would be what we would call a large farm, which wouldn't be anything, today we wouldn't call it large,, But, the average farm in Watauga County �13 has always been somewhere from £0-60 acres, wiich would indicate that there's quite a number of 10-20 acre farms, some were UOO-5QO acres. Q: Who were the larger farm owners? As Well, one of the larger ones that I remember was the Dr» Peary farm which more recently is owned by Floyd Ayers, who is now deceased,and over on Highway 10$. Then we had farms over in Valle Crucis, the Tom Beard farm, Will Mast farm, the Taylor farm, Don Shall farm, those were fairly large farmsi Down at Brownwood on the Ashe County line, we had the Coopers, Albert Cooper farm, it was a fairly large farm. And down at Deep Gap, old man Moretz had all that land there in the gap, which was a pretty large farm. Of course, a few of them stiU have farms. The Murray Brown farm, he was a pretty young man at the time, he had a little over 100-150 acres, rapidly accumulating more, The Neil Blair farm, where the golf course is now, was considered a pretty large farm. ASTC Dairy Farm was considered a fairly large farm. Q: So a lot of this area that we've seen developed into other things is where the prime farm land used to be? At That's right. The development has taken quite a large part of the better farm. The Neil Blair farm was a big farm. Where the Hound Ears development is was the Claude Shore's farm. That was not an exceptionally large,farm, but it was good farm land. Where Boone now sits, wJiere all this shopping development on the Blowing Rock Road is, see that was farm land. That belonged to the Farthings-mostly, Grady Farthing's brothers, Ed, Zeb, and Don. Q: How do you feel when you see the shopping centers and bulldozers where your best farms used to be? Aj Well, I have mixed fellings on that. A lot of the people are making an easier living, at least part-time, in industry, than they were able to make on the farm with the assets that we had for farming. So, that has helped. But, also I hate to see the bulldozers tearing up our land. I think it could �be done without as much destruction as has been for the last few years, but they say it's progress, so we'll go along with it to a certain extent. We'll do all we can to try to keep them from tearing up all the beauty0 We still think that the farmers are the backbone of Watauga §ounty, that is as far as the attraction for tourists» There's nothing more attrac tive in our reports that we get, one of the things that they like about Watauga County is these well-kept farmsteads and nice cattle on the hill, tilings like that. So, I'm still a farmer, I believe in farming. Qs Do you think that it will be possible to continue with out well-kept farms and cattle on the hillside? A: I'm hoping it willo I know we'll have difficulties and we're going to have problems. But, I think we'll be able to maintain quite a bit of that, and may see some of it coming backo We've cleared some land when we're trying to farm extensively that I know would be better off in forests. So, I'd like to see some of these steeper, rougher places go back to forest production, which I think would add to the beauty of the area. I hope that we'll be able to keep enough of our rolling land, sloping land, bottom land, to produce feed for livestock, support our operation, and I believe we will. Q: Were you involved in the timber growing business, or was most of the limber sold before you came here? As Most of the timber was sold before I came to the country. We have had the part in getting quite a number of seedlings set, pine seedlings, poplar seedlings, and in some cases walnut seedlings, locust.. T e've also been in- volved in sane timber stand improvement work, but most of that timber was cut out before we came or was being cut out during WWII, pretty extensively at that time. So, we didn't get in on too much. We worked with the land owners where we could„ �Q: How did WW II change farming, or change the acea? As Well, when WW II was over, the market for Vegetables dropped off, and our farmets went to other types of production. Many of the boys who had been in WW II were not satisfied with what they could produce and income they could get on the farm, so they went seeking other employment. It was a period of change--the automobile came in strong*, prosperity seemed to increase and the young people became more restless. Of course, the rural prpulation was too great for the land to support all of them, so they began to spread out. Qs Would you say this was when the major change took place? As I think it is, yes. Qs Right at the end of the war? As Yes, just in the years right after the end of the war. Actually, I expect, when we begun to get industry in Watauga County, most of it occured in the 'Jo's which was a period not too lone after the war. We begun to take stock of what we had, and work with industry to get some payrolls in the county. So, we were instrumental in studying the situation and getting several facts before the people. Then we worked with the Chamber of Commerce and others to bring in some industry. I tell some of them we might have overdone it. Q! Were you personally involved in helping to get industry in? A: Yes, we were. We were one of the counties designated as rural development county, and in 1956 one of three in N. C. An extensive study was made of the situation and the assets and possibilities in Watauga County. We got quite a lot of help from the state, notable N. C, State University. We were pretty active in that, Q: Going back for a minute, during the war, was there a decrease in farming because the men were away? As Well, we have reduced the land that is being used for agriculture. I think �16 according to the US Census, only about % of Watauga County is now used for agricultural purposes. Most of the agriculture has shifted from a row-crop vegetable production to more of a livestock economu with grass covering the hillfi, and some of the roughland going back to trees. The income from the farm has increased from about $1.5 million sales back in 191*5 to approximately $k.£ million at the present time, and the large part of the people that live on the farm, one or more members are now partly employed or full-time employed in industry. So, we would say that our area is more of a part-time fanning area at the present than it was back in those days. Q: What about the crops that are grown? Has there been any change? A: The crops grown now are mostly the U-H crops, grass crops, livestock feed crops. We've gotten away from the vegetables, and the crops that require too much labor—what we call child labor. There's not as many people on the farm, the farm families are not as large, they don't have a large number of children growing up to help pick beans and cabbage and things like that, so we're getting away from that type of farming. Qj Are more outside laborers employed? A: No, most of the farming is done by the fanner and his family,, There's not too many outside laborers employed by the farm. There is some, but not as much as there was a few years ago. Q: What about the markets? A: Well, the market—transportation has come in with the better roads and trucks, so you can get rid of most any crop you can produce. On the other hand, the transportation through the U. S, , so that crops producedlin one area, can be qu±6kly transported to another area where they're used. So, that's maybe reduced the demand for the corps we produce in other areas with machinery, and the price has become more equalized and not as profitable for us. �1? Q: Do you sell the grain crops outside of this area? A: No, ma'am, most of the grain crops are now fed to Itestock in the area, and we're even importing some grain from other areas, because it's easier to buy corn produced at the foot of the mountain than it is to grow it here, sometimes more economical. But, we grow our hay crops and our silage crops, Q: What is a silage crop? A: That's corn that is put in these horizontal silos and used for livestock feed during the winter months, usually corn, Qi Since cattle is one of the major animals raised, how do you feel about the meat controversy? As We do not agree with the housewife when she says she's paying too much for meat. If she had to get out here and produce it, I think she'd change her mind. We think food is still a bargain. The U.S. housewife is only spending around 17$ of their income for food. Most countries, they're spending quite a bit more, so the farmer, as yet, is not getting his fair share. I think the increase in price, the increase has come about largely because of increase in the cost of labor, transportation, marketing, and so on. Qt Are there any particularly good years that you can remember, or one best year or best period, for farming in the area? At No, I don't remember any particularly good years that, there was a time long about '50 or '51 when livestock prices were quite a bit higher than they had been before, that were considered good years for livestock producers. Every so often you'd have a good year for vegetable producers0 Cabbage would bring a good price, but I don't recall which years those might be. Q: What about a worst year or years? A: The worst years were the years around 'f&-'55, in there, when we had unreasonably dry weather for our area, and our vegetable crops were short, so we ran short all the way through« Those were pretty hard years for us. We can get �19 them anytime again, too. Q: Do you know how the 'ijO's flood affected the soil, and therefore, the farming? A: Only from hear-say. There were still signs of the flood on these mountains when I came in 'ii3. Many of the little fertile valleys were covered with logs, ricks, and debris taken out of cultivation. We could see what they called "burst outs" on the sides of the mountains, where it looked like big patches of the mountain slipped off and slid down the valley. It was evidently, a scary time of destruction at that time. Qr Was that land ever recovered? A: A lot of it is gradually being recovered, but there's some of it that has not. Some of it was just graved beds. The highway department has gone into several places and scooped up the gravel and used it for highway construction, and things like that. I'd say 1S% of it has been recov ered, but farmers have been reluctant to plow up those bottoms and make them more vulnerable to erosion, in case we do have high water. We tru to keep a high percentage of it in sod crops that won't be—they can be washed away, but it takes more water to wash them away, and it's n6t quite as vulnerable. Q: Have there been any floods or natural disasters since then that have affected the terrain for farming? A: Not to any extent. Some of the river bottoms have flooded a little bit, but we've been remarkably free of disasters-natural disasters-such as excessive flooding or wind damage, tornado damage, anything like that. Q: Could you comment on the Watauga Sour Kraut Factory and impact on farming? A: The Watauga Krout Factory was here when I came. They have been processing cabbage from 75-125 acres of land over the years. They were, I guess, one of the first industries using farm products. Sawmills used lumber, timber, but--and they �have helped quite a number of farmers, probably 60-100 per year, with a small income, no excessive income, but they've been a good substantial, stabilizing industry for our area. Q: When was that started, do you know? As I do not know, but I think it must have been just about after the first World War, shortly afterwards sometime, but I do not know just when, Qt Do you know who started it? At I do not, I'm sorry. Q: Who runs it today? A: Mr. and Mrs**Bil Miller-William Miller-are the operators. Mr. Miller's father operated, it for some time with the help of Dr. K. C. Perryk who I think furnished part of the financing. So, I really don ft know just how they gained control of it> or just what did happen. Maybe I should have been curious enough to try to find out, but I did not. Q: But they are still as successful as ever, aren't they? A? I think so. They—I don't think they make any great lot of moJiey out of it, but they are making a living and they're supplying a market for cabbage, which is a good thing for out there. Q: They buy from individual farmers, is that what they do? A: Yes. Q: How has—I'll ask you this, then I'll let you rest. How has your job changed over the years? A: My job, when I started, was working with individual farmers trying to help them change their management practices, or their production practices, to produce more and make more money for their farm. My job has been more in the last—well, since the rural development program in the mid 1950's, has been to try ot help the people help themselves, whether it be in agriculture or whether it be funding employ- �ment or starting some kind of small business that would help them with better incomes or make a better living0 It's evolved from a help the people in a limited way with agriculture to helping them in any way that we can to make—to give them a better living whether it means more money or just more pleasure from what they are doing.* Qs What sort of assistance has the United States government given to these kind of programs to help people? As Of course, part of the salary of the country extension agents, home agents, Ij-H agents, is appropriated by the Congrss and that comes through the North Carolina University which is supplemented with some money from the—appropriated by the state and them that is in turn supplemented by some county money topay personbel and to do research work to try to increase the income or the know-how of farmers c, You see, back thirty years ago, we were producing thirty to thirty-five bushels of corn per acre when the hybrid corn was devleoped and now we're not satisfied if they don't ge over a hundred. So there's been quite a lot of work from the federal government, the U, S, Department of Agriculture, plant breeding, animal breeding and soil testing, fertilization, chemicals can be used to control pests, those kind of things. The research, as far as direct supplement ot farmers, unless you would call the fertilizer that came through the agriculture stabilization program as a supplement, why the department has not given farmers the handout or anything like that. They did give them some money to encourage conservation, and that's one thing that helped us to get away from plowing up too much of these hill land, those kind of things. Q: Well, I have read a lot about how universities like North Carolina State, the land grant colleges have poured millions of dollars into developing machinery that really puts the samll farmer out of business and I've been concerned about that. I wondered how much they've done that actually helped the small farmer. �22 Q: Well, unfortunately I think there's too much truth in the statement that they have developed machinery and technology that the large farmer or the one that is able to control the acreage or rent their own acres-a little more benefit to them than it has been to the small farmer, so I'd say there's more truth than we'd like to talk about that. Qj What can the small farmer do to compete then? Aj Well, there are certain crops that the small farmer can produce more econom- ical, that require a lot 6f hand labor and he can increase his income if he's willing to maybe work a little bit harder. We think this small fruit crop is one reason we're into the strawberry plant businesso That's an opportunity. We know that, with proper care, that a farmer could can have a labor income of from $2f>00$3000 from an acre of strawberries and maybe blueberries, take longer to get them established, but that may increase to that amount or even more so then with such crops as trellised tomatoes that require a large amount of labor, at a high income per acre, other fruits, the production of fancy vegetables, things like that. There's Opportunities there I think and North Carolina State University has worked for those type of people quite a little bit. Maybe they can do more, but it's a—I don't think we've left them our entirely and now at the present time we've got--we're working three, what we call nutrition aids that are working with'the low income farm families on a-not only producing vegetables, fruits, and a family food supply, but on usine what they buy from the stores preparing balanced meals and health care. Q: What is the U. S. Government doing to help the small subsistnece family far- ,mer? Ai: Outside of the educational assistance we can give them with extension programs through the home economics and different kinds of sids, I don't know that the Department of Agriculture is doing a lot for the small subsistence farmer. They are �more concerned with getting the farmer and his family educated so they can take advantage of employment opportunities. It seems to me that they might be encouraging part-time farmers more that they are full-time farmers on these small farms. And perhaps, outside of the few speciality crops, especially vegetables, and small food projects* Why, if the farmer doesn't want to do a pretty good job of management and take quite a bit of pains, he might make more money on the job. But I think at the same time, and I think our Department of Agriculture is encouraging, the use of the resources that they have, such as the land for the production of these high-income-per-acre crops* We are not willing to admit that the samll farmer is completely out. He may have to do a little bit better job of management, and have to get his business established, spend a little more money to get started then he used to, but he can stiU. make a pretty good go of it, Q: Is money available to help you get started? A: Money is available usually through the Farmers Home Administration and usually some other sources to help him get started. He does need to work out a pretty good farm plan and know what he wants to do, and how he wants to do it. Q: And that's where you would come in? A: Yes. Q: Do you see any hope in cooperatives or farmer's associations to kind of band together to compete with the very large farmers? As If cooperatives—if there is a place—if they have a specific purpose and know what they're after, and have a pretty good plan to go after that particular point, then a cooperative will work. There's been too much emphasis place on cooperatives just because they're called cooperatives. Farmers get together and they don't know what they want* They don't plan far enoueh ahead, so I'm not too strong on just fanning a cooperative just to say we have one. Let's have a purpose and have a real need for it. I think the Blue Ridge F.lectric Membership Cooperative-the Elec- �trie Co-op, the teltphone co-op, have done wonderful-have been wonderful, and they are doing a good job. There is a need for it-there's a purpose, and they had it well planned. If you talk about a little co-op such as a transportation eo-op, which I know of, it wasn't planned well enough, and the people were not willing to use it, so those types of things I think we need to be care ful what we get into. Q: What about a cooperative or association to pool and sell produce or livestock? As If the visiting markets are not doing what they should then a co-op can step in and do the job, but your management in a co-op needs to be just as good as in a business. Sometimes that's hard to1get. We need to study carefully. Co-ops are not a cure for everything. Q: Are there any in this area? A: As I mentioned, the telephone and the electric co-ops are the better ones that are going strong. Q: I'm thinking of fanners. A: Well, of course the PCX is a co-op—it's a large one. Qi Are there any that market farm products? A: Not that I can think of right off hand. But there-is , over in some of the western counties, there's a tomato marketing co-op, and apple marketing co-op in Mitchel County* We have not had a co-op here to market vegetableso I think a lot of that will depend on if you have good, conscientious markets-private enterprise markets-then the farmers will go along with that before they'll put their own money in and try to form one of their own. I think they're wise to do that, because its hard to hire-you just can't hire the type of management that it takes sometimes. Q: What about a farmer's market? A: Well, we have-now, let me go back a little bit. Our livestock market is-the building and facilities-is supplied by an association which is leased to private operators, so we have gone that far, so maybe I better back up a little bit on �what I said awhile ago. We do have a. livestock association that has supplied the facilities, which is in turn leased to private operators. Those types of thingsI think the situation has to be evaluated as it develops. You can't just make a general statement, say every place should-the producers should land together to get facilities and them lease it to private operators* Mayb;e they should get the facilities and msybe operate it themselves, and maybe a private operator who will bet or funish the capital themselves can do it. So, each situation needs to be evaluated in itself. Qx Has there ever been an open-air market, where the fanners could bring in thfeir produce? At When we had our bean market, there was-you might call that a kind of open-air market. There's been little small curb markets, but there's never been what you referred to as an open-sir market, as far as I know, in Boone, as there is in the larger towns. So, you've got to have buying power before those type of things will succeed. I don't believe that you have enough buying power around Boone to operate a very large market. Little private roadside markets, will do a good job. I don't believe we've got enough buying power to operate a big market* Q: Do you know if any of the farmers take their produce to Winston-Salem or other cities? A: Very few. Occasionally you'll get them taken further away the Columbia Veg- etable Market, Columbia, S. C. we well a few loads down there, but it's sporadic. A farmer has a surplus and he don't think he's getting the market price satisfied, then he'll take a load, but it's not a good sustem. QJ Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think would be helpful for us to know? A: I believe you've pretty well covered the agricultural situation. I don't know, I hope I've given you the facts. Ifve given you my opinion, so maybe you �can compare it to someone elst, and them form your opinion. Q: Thank you, Mr. Tuckwillere � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with L.E. Tuckwiller, April 10, 1973 Description An account of the resource L.E. Tuckwiller was born September 16, 1908 in West Virginia. He graduated from Berea College in 1934 and was the Watauga County extension agent for the past 30 years. Mr. Tuckwiller talks mostly about his career as an extension agent throughout the interview. He explains his academic career and what lead him to the job. Mr. Tuckwiller was born and raised in West Virginia, so he describes the history of that area and compares the land to Boone. He also talks about his childhood on the farm and stories he heard of the Native Americans and the Civil War. For a large portion of the interview, Mr. Tuckwiller talks about farming in Boone and how he has worked with farmers. He also discusses the loss of farming land to development. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamm, Joy Tuckwiller, LE Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/10/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 25 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape57-58_LETuckwiller_1973_04_10M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--West Virginia--20th century West Virginia--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Mountain life--West Virginia--History--20th century--Anecdotes Berea College 1940 flood Appalachian State University Atlanta Berea College Blue Ridge Electric Membership Cooperative Brasstown Cherokee County N.C. Civil War Clay County N.C. Columbia Vegetable Market Cooperative Feed Store country extension Department of Agriculture Farmer's Cooperative Farmers Home Administration farming Fort Donneley Georgia Goodnight Brothers Great Depression Greenberry County Hollar's Produce L.E. Tuckwiller livestock Mountain City Mountain Valley Cooperative Native Americans North Carolina North Carolina State University sawmill subsistence farming superstitions Tennessee Watauga County N.C. Watauga Kraut Factory West Virginia https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3452c0315f054b3e81d01edac3cda72c.pdf 4c7fcd0af7786bcaa3d72357db39392f PDF Text Text AOHP #66 Page 1 This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Lee Greene for the Appalachian Oral History Project, by Donna Clawson, at Route 2, Boone, on June 11, 1973. QUESTION: Mrs. Greene, I'll start with you. ANSWER: Where were you born? (Mrs. G) You mean the county? Q: Yes, the county or the area. A": (Ms. G) I was born in Watauga County, or Meat Camp. Q: What was the year? A: (Ms. G) 1908. Q: What about you, Mr. Greene? A: (Mr. G) Well, I was born in 1904. Q: Were you born in this county? A: (Mr. G) Watauga County, yes. this house. Just a little ways right here from That little house that used to stand out here where that other house was. Q: Who were your parents? A: (Mr. G) Henry Greene and Lura. Q: Who were your parents, Mrs. Greene? A: (Ms. G) Pink Jones and Laura Jones. Q: Had your parents always lived in this county? A: (Mr. G) Yes. Q: They were born in this county? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, Watauga County. Q: What about your parents? A: (Ms. G) They were too. Q: Mrs. Greene, I'll talk to you a while then. did you have? Both of them. How many years did you go? A: (Ms. G) I just went to the seventh grade. Q: How many months out of the year did you go? What kind of schooling �AOHP #66 Page 2 A: (Ms. G) Six. Q: Was it a one-room schoolhouse? A: (Ms. G) Yes. Q: How many teachers did you have? A: (Ms. G) Just one teacher, every year. Q: The same teacher the whole time? A: (Ms. G) No, a different one each year. Q: What kind of thing did you study in school? A: (Ms. G) Let's see. Arithmetic, that's what they called it back then. English, spelling, history, geography, sanitation, and, one other thing. I can't think of the name of the book. (Mr. G) Grammar? (Ms. G) No. Q: That's about the same thing they teach now. and sisters? What about brothers How many did you have? A: (Ms. G) I had one brother and four sisters. Q: What were their n^^es? A: (Ms. G) Well, Docia's my oldest sister. And Allie Barnes. You want their full names? Q: Yes, that'll be fine. A: (Ms. G) Docia Suddreth, Allie Brown, Bessie Greene, Verlee Brown, and Stanford Jones. Q: Were they all older than you, or were you in the middle? A: (Ms. G) I was next to the youngest. Q: Mr. Greene, how much schooling did you have? A: (Mr. G) I guess I got through maybe what they call the fifth grade. Q: How many months out of the year did you go? A: (Mr. G) When first I went it was just three months. There were four older than me. up to six months. Q: Did you study about the same things Mrs. Greene did? A: (Mr. G) About the same things. Then they got ( �AOHP #66 Page 3 Q: A: What about teachers, did you have one each year? (Mr. G) They teached all the grades that was teached, they didn't grade them like they do now. went along. Passed them through their books as they Didn't grade them like they do now. (Ms. G) We never had a report card or anything like that. Q: You just went through? A: (Ms. G) Yeah, they just passed you. Q: Do you remember the name of the school you went to? A: (Mr. G) Huh? Q: What was the name of the school? A: (Mr. G) Uh, Sands. Q: What was yours? A: (Ms. G) I went to three different schools. I guess you know where that is, up Meat Camp. Springs. I went to Chestnut Grove. And then went to Maple It was only two schools, yeah. Q: Well, what year did y'all get married? A: (Ms. G) 1927. Q: Did you live around here then? A: (Ms. G) We lived in PErkinsville. Q: How long did you live there? A: (Ms. G) Three years. Q: Then did you move back up here? A: (Ms. G) Yeah, we moved down here where Herbert Foster lives. And then we moved from there, down there on the creek, you know where J. D. Greene owns that little house below the creek. And then we moved from there to here. Q: How many children do you have? A: (Ms.G) Two. Q: Mr. Greene, what kind of occupations have you had, what kind of jobs? A: (Mr. G) Farming the most of the time, up till the last twenty-two years. Two sons. Then I been working in produce ever since. �AOHP #66 Page 4 Q: Can you remember a time when you had hard time getting a job? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, they wasn't no jobs, back then 'cept only farming. I never had no hard time gettin' a job. I could get work to do. body wanted any work done, if I had time to do it. / then, you didnjt get too much done away from home. If any- If you tried to farm (Ms. G) They weren't no plants you know, or anything like that to work at. Q: They've not been around here too long. A: (Ms. G) No, they haven't. Q: What kind of crops did you raise? A: (Mr. G) Raised corn, potatoes, rye, wheat, buckwheat. Q: Did you sell any of them or did you just use them? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, sold some fo 'em. his tax. A fellow had to sell enough to pay That's the only way we had of paying the tax. Q: Is that all you ever had to pay? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, that's about all. Had to buy a little sugar and coffee once in while. Q: Goodness, that's not like it is today. What about livestock, did you have livestock? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, kept one cow most of the time. two. (Ms. G) Three, we had three cows. Part of the time I had (Mr. G) Three here one time, didn't we. Q: What about churches in this area, what kinds of churches have been around here? A: The denominations and all. (Mr. G) Well, the Methodist and the Baptist have been around the longest, I guess. Q: Which church did the most people belong to? A: (Mr. G) I'm not sure I could tell you about that. Baptist, most of 'em. Q: I suppose the Right through this area, anyway. Were the churches a lot different then from what they are now? �AOHP #66 Page 5 A: (Mr. G) Yeah, they's a whole lot different. People didn't try to dress up so fine like they do anymore, when they went to church. Q: I guess not. A: (Ms. G) Didn't have it to dress in. Q: What other ways have the churches changed? A: (Ms. G) You answer that. (Mr. G) What? Q: What other ways have the churches changed? A: (Mr. G) Well, these trends. . . trying to build bigger churches. And having less attendance, I think, than they used to have. Q: That's right. A: (Mr. G) That's the way I think they've changed. Q: That's true. A: (Mr. G) From an old feller by the name of Sands, I guess what give it the Sands name. Q: How did this community get its name? (ms. G) That's what I've heard. Can you remember any of the decision makers in this community in the past years? A: (Mr. G) I can't think of any of them. Q: I guess its mostly just been involved in the county, iL-/ rather than so much of a separate community. A: (Mr. G) Yeah. Q: Has the community changed a lot? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, right smart. Q: What about the population of the community? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, more. Q: Are either of you interested in politics? A: (Mr. G) Interested in politics? Q: Yes. A: (Mr. G) Yeah, I've always been interested. Q: Can you remember any special elections? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, all of 'em. People don't visit nigh like they used to. Is it more? �AOHP #66 Page 6 Q: Oh, really? A: Yeah! Q: Did you get out and politic? A: (Mr. G) No, I didn't politic but I always tried to get over there and cast my vote. Q: Just kept up with 'em, huh? A: (Mr. G) Yeah. to go vote. (Ms. G) We've always just been interested enough (Mr. G) No, I ain't never took no part in the local affairs much. Q: Well, voting shows a big interest. How did most of the people around here vote? A: (Mr. G) Well, I guess 'at most of 'em, biggest majority of 'em was Republicans — Q: A: in this county. How do you think politics have changed over the years? , (Mr. G) I think its got rotten, that's how. (Ms. G) You shouldn't 'a said that. Q: No, that's fine. I've heard a lot 'a people say that. just about agree with you, too. A: I think I How have the politics changed? (Mr. G) Used to, the candidates would debate, ya know, at some certain place and speak against one another, but they don't do that no more. It's all on television, or not no speaking a 'tall, or maybe have a few gettogethers somewhere, where the parties met. An' when they debated aginst one another, an' face to face in politics it 'uz even more interesting than it is now. Q: I bet it was. A: (Mr. G) They'd get so mad they could kill one another when they get up to speak at one another. (Ms. G) I can remember going to hear people speak with my daddy when I was just litt^g, An ' he'd want to go hear somebody speak that was on his side, ya know. night and he'd take us children and go. They'd usually speak at �AOHP #66 Page 7 Q: Well, did they ever get in real heated arguments? A: (Mr. G) Yeah, they'd get in some purty hot 'uns, sometimes. Q: What about the crowd, did they get mad, too? A: (Mr. G) No, the crowd didn't seem to worry much. think so. I can't remember anybody getting too mad. probably riled up on a few of 'em in the crowd. that 'ud give us any trouble. (Mrs. G) I don't (Mr. G) Course it (Ms. G) Wasn't nothing (Mr. G) No trouble, whatever. I never did hear of ..having no trouble Q: That's unusual. At least now it seems unusual. How did people get around, back when you were growing up? A: (Mr. G) We walked, wherever we went. or a wagon. We went in a horse and buggy, My father bought an old steer wagon. (Ms. G) My daddy had a steer, yoke 'a steers that I remember we rode to church in. You know what a steer is. Q: Yeah. Did you ever walk pretty long distances? A: (Mr. G) Yeah. Q: How long did it take ya to do that? A: (Mr. G) Not too long. We'd go five or six miles. Back then when I'se young I could walk purty good. Q: Where did you have to walk to ? A: Yeah, ya had to walk to town when ya went to town. three miles, ya know. Did you, like walk to town much? That 'uz about That 'uz just a short distance, back then. (Ms.G) Nobody didn't mind walking to town, back then. (Mr. G) Never thought nothing about it. (Ms. G) When my daddy moved down here, ya know, where Wilson Brown lives, we moved down there, and I'se eleven years old when he moved from Meat Camp down there. And all of us walked back up to Meat Camp to church. Q: Well, that seems like a long way now. I guess people have gotten lazy. A: (Ms. G) And they'd be running a revival meeting, ya know, at night, and we'd all fall in, ya know, and get ready in time to go to church at night. �AOHP #66 Page 8 (Mr. G) People back then when they had produce to sell they hauled it to Lenoir and sold it. On a wagon, and team. Q: How long did that take ya? A: (Mr. G) Take 'em three or four days to go from thefeto Lenoir and back. (ms. G) My brother used to run a steer wagon for hauling produce. Took a long time to go with a yoke 'a steers down there. Q: I guess it did. A: (Mr. G) Back then nobody 'uz in no big hurry. They'j^meet up with somebody, they'd stand and talk for an hour or two an1 now they won't hardly speak howdy to ya. Q: That's the way it goes. It does seem to be that way. You'd \k with people having it easier getti to spend with people. A: (Mr. G) It looks like it. But they hain't, they've got to go. (Ms. G) Looks like when you can go so much quicker that you'd have more time. (Mr. G) Everythings speeded up the past few years. Q: Yeah, I've seen it speed up just as long as I've been alive. A: (Mr. G) Yeah, you've seen it speeding up, all the way up. (Ms.G) I know we lived on Meat Camp one time. They'uz a having a revival meeting, ya know, an' they had it in the afternoons and the evenings. An 1 I can remember walking and going with Momma, and we went across the where Mr. Ira Brown used to live, the Dr. Harmon place, ya know, and come on across that way. And I can remember, as we went back, ya know in the fall of the year it began to get dark so early. And we got down to where Aunt Mary Jones used to live and it was agettin dark there, and we had to go through the dark from there on home. Q: That'd be something today, wouldn't it. Where did most of the roads and the railroads run around here? A: (Mr. G) Well, there wasn't no railroads here, till Tweetsie come into Boone and I don't remember what year that was. it never did come back in. It washed it out in "40 and �AOHP #66 Q: Where were most of the i(a:ojds and things? A: (Mr. G) Page 9 Only railroad was Todd, I guess. gauge running into Boone. place. And that little narrow (Ms. G) But the roads now aren't in the same (Mr. G) And then they built a road that goes up here to Rich Mountair to get logs out. And then went on that narrow gauge over to Shulls Mills. See, they had a sawmill over there. up Howard's Creek, was there. (Ms. G) There wasn't much of a road (Mr. G) No, not much of one at that time. (Ms. G) Then they built a good road up there. We can remember it but I don't remember what year it was. Q: What about some of the other roads, like Meat Camp Read? Was it a pretty good road? A: (Mr. G) No, rough road, and trees so low you couldn't get around them. (Ms. G) They wasn't many roads that was even just gravelled, much that you could travel. Q: Of course, I guess, without having cars it didn't make much difference what the roads were like, did it? A: (Mr. G) No, they got to improving roads when cars begun to come into this country. Got to hard-surfacing 'em then. (Ms. G) This road that goes around down here, ya know, this old road, I can remember when they's a-building that, before I was married. And then out there at Sands, right below, or about even with that house there of ( ? Mr.) Cook's, there's a big mud hole there, ya know, and couldn't nobody get through it. car had tried to get through there. And one There wasn't but a very few, ya know. They would get stuc^r And they's always somebody coming out to my Dad's to get Stanford and Daddy to take their yoke of steer and they'd have to go pull those cars out of the mudhole. Q: When did the first cars come in? saw your first car? Can you remember the year you �AOHP #66 Page 10 A: (Mr.G) (Ms.G) (Mr.G) (Ms.G) seeing. then? I don't remember the exact year. I don't believe I do remember the year. It would 'a been about '15, I guess. But I remember who was driving the first one that I remember And I was scared of it. Do you know I was scared of a car back We lived on Meat Camp, that was before we moved doen here where Daddy lived. And we had come to Mr. Dan Cook's to the store, when he had an old storehouse - - -out ttere. Well, where was it that stood? (Mr.G) Right down this side of where J. B."s got# his store. (Ms.G) No, that first one that was doen here beside- - - (Mr.G) That first one stood right down this side right below the old Ingram house down there. Alongside of the road. (Ms.G) Oh, I thought you said below the road. (Mr.G) Well, 'tis, down this-a-way. (Ms.G) Well, it was on the other side of the road. be, you're right. Yeah, it would That one down there. . . . (Mr.G) He moved out right down and went up by George Hayes', you know. When that storehouse stood there. (Ms.G) You know where Oscar Hayes lives, don't you? the George Hayes place. left on around there. can you remember it? Well that was And the road went way around that hill, to the And right there below where that old Ingram house, It's not been tore down long. Q: Yeah, I think I remember it. A: (Ms.G) It's right there below where Charles Hodges, uh,. . . (Mr.G) . . .slaughter - place is at... (Ms.G) Well, I don't know what I was going to tell you before that. Q: You were talking about the car, the first one you saw. A: (Ms.G) Yeah, that car. We'd been over there to that store, and we went back around that road, ya know, and we went, walking up around up through that bottom above where Oscar Hayes lives. And went on up the road there a little piece,...we got over in Tommy Hayes' field and walked on �AOHP # 66 that hill to where the Howard Foster house is. Page 11 You know, where Howard Foster used to live, you know, over near Meat Camp. Who is it lives there now, Mr. Shook? (Mr.G) Yeah. (Ms.G) We'd go right across that hill, ya know. We heard this car a-coming before we got to where we always crawled under this wire fence, ya know, where we'd come up there above Oscar Hayes1. And I can remember how scared we was and we run ourselves near to death because we's so afraid of that car. And we wanted to get there and crawl under that fence and get in that field before that car passed us. it. And Henry Miller was driving Henry Miller had bought him a car back then. And that's the first car I can remember seeing. Q: I bet that would have been scary. A: (Ms.G) We was so afraid of that car. . . . because we had never seen one. And we's afraid to be out in the road for it to pass us. Q: Can you remember the first car you saw? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, I believe it was along back about '14 or '15. Around that year. (Ms.G) It was . . . now we moved from over there in 1918. And it was just a few years before that becuase I was a purty goog-sized Qirl. And I was eleven years old when we moved there. I guess he's about right. About 1914 or '15. Q: What did you think of the first car you saw? A: (Mr.G) Well I thought it was a kinda funny looking outfit. Q: I guess they did look strange at first. A: (Mr.G) Yeah, but I soon got used to 'em. Q: What was the first car you ever had? A: (Mr.G) Ah, the first 'un I ever owned was a '21 Ford, I believe. Q: You remember when you got that? A: (Mr.G) I got it off 'a Larry Lane. �AOHP #66 Page 12 (Ms.G) She said when. (Mr.G) Oh, no, I don't remember exactly when. It musta' been about 1920, something along that. Q: Did you enjoy riding around in the car? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, I liked to drive it. T-Model Ford's what it was. One seat. Q: Did you like it better than walking, and horse 'n buggy 'n all that? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, Yeah I liked it better 'n that. where quicker and back. Q: any- Go further. What about some of the crafts in the area? the curing, and the weaving. A: You could Like the soapmaking, Have you done much of that? (Ms.G) I never did do any weaving. to make all the soap that I used. I've made a lot of Soap. I used Me and my mother used to make soap. She done a lot 'a spinning and carding, but she never did any weaving. Q: Did you ever learn to do any of the spinning? A: (Ms.G) No, I never did any spinning. Q: I've heard it's pretty hard to do. A: (Ms.G) It was for me. I never did try, though, very much. put us to doing other things since she did all that. Mother She never did teach us. (Mr.G) Yeah, people used to save all their ashes where they burnt the wood to make lye to make soap out of. Set off a hollow tree, make gums, pour the ashes in 'em. (Ms.G) Set 'em up on a big rock, let the rock be a little slant. They'd pour water down in those ashes and set a crock down under there, my mother did, to catch the drippings. (Mr.G) They'd chisel 'em out a little channel, you know, that'd run into the vessel. Set 'em up there, pour water in 'em to get the lye. (Ms.G) She never did buy canned lye. (Mr.G) Why back then, people was the lyingest things you ever seen. LAUGHTER. �AOHP #66 Page 13 Q: I guess they had to be. A: (Ms.G) My mother made her own vinegar and all that she used in the pickles. She never bought any. Q: Well, I didn't know you could make vinegar. A: (Ms.G) Well, she'd take a bunch of apple peelings. exactly how she made it. How do you do that? I don't know But she'd pour water over that, and let it set 'til it would work, ya know, and then she'd strain it. Just have the liquid part, ya know, and let it sit so much and she skim it. know exactly how she did make it. And, ooh, it was strong, too. Q: I don't But she'd make some of the best vinegar. It'd really pickle things. What about mountain cures, like when somebody got sick, did you have cures for different things? A: (Ms.G) Yes, we had some. Q: What were some of the cures you can remember? A: (Ms.G) Well, back then children had worms and you know they say now they don't have 'em. And Momma would always give garlic, ya know the heads of garlic, or the bulbs, ya know, out of the ground. And she'd beat that up, andy put it on, . . . between a cloth, ya know, and put that on your stomach. And that would cure worms. And then they was an herb that she growed in the garden, she called rue. that was good for worms. I think it was spelled r-u-e. And And she would get that, and beat it up and put it in a cloth, and tie it on the wrist. Q: My goodness, did it work? A: (Ms.G) Yes, it sure did. It helped. a sore throat she made onion poultice. she do? And then she made . . . . for And, let's see now, what else did She took wheat bran, I forget what else she put with it. remember how they fixed that for something? Do you What was that for? (Mr.G) I don't know. (Ms.G) I remember she she used to take wheat bran and make some kind of cure. She did all kinds of things like that. �AOHP #66 Page 14 We ' s never ever took to a doctor, or sent for a doctor or anything. Anytime, except when the flu WcvS around so bad, in 1918. That was the only we ever had a doctor at my house that I remember. Q: Who was your doctor? A: (Ms.G) Uh, yes, Stanford did freeze his feet one time in the winter- time. They come big old holes in his heels, ya know. in there. Big old holes, back And, old Dr. J. B. Hagaman lived at Todd at that time. he come on horseback. And we'd send for him and he'd come over nearly every night. . . ride his horse over there to Meat Camp. doctored Stanford's feet. when we had the flu. And And then Dr. Bingham come. He come and Dr. Bob Bingham, And Bessie had pneumonia when we had the flu. Dr. Jones, J. W. Jones, I believe. And He was at Boone, and he come to see her a time or two when she had pneumonia. (Mr.G) And they all traveled on horseback then. (Ms.G) Yeah, they had to ride horse back that far. make all kinds of tea/ in the wintertime. whether we's sick or not. And Momma would She made us drink it all along She'd made boneset tea, and oh how bitter it was. And when we had whooping cough she made chestnut leaf tea and I've drunk quarts and quarts of that. Shti. made peneroil tea out of this big red. . . .no, that's horseleaf that has big red top, but they was a kind of stuff called peneroil, wasn't they? (Mr.G) Uhmm - uh. (Ms.G) She gathered that and dried it to make tea out of. she made tea out of that. And catnip, All kinds of different things. Q: Well what was all that for? A: (Mr.G) Spicewood, sassafras (Ms.G) Well now they said the spice wood was to thin your blood. How they knew that it was too thick, I don't know that. But they'd make us drink it and I guess it didn't hurt us. (Mr.G) They give you spicewood tea to break you out with the measles. �AOHP #66 Page 15 And they used a lot of these hot teas, now, for measles. they had to do for measles, back then, ya know. tea to get you broke out. Just use some of the hot They used spicewood tea for measles and they used the boneset tea for measles, too. things. That was all And it was good for coughs and different And they used polecat oil and groundhog oil for croupe. Just think of them terrible, horrible things you had to take back then. And Momma would get (Mr.G) How'd you like to be greased with polecat oil? Q: I don't think I'd like that at all. A: (Ms.G) If you take the croupe, or a real deep cold, ya know, ooh, that stinking stuff, they'd grease your chest with that, and take a real flannel cloth, ya know. They'd heat it, ya know, and put that thing on your chest right here, ya know. It'd break up pneumonia. (Mr.G) People'd take a fit now if they had to be greased with it, wouldn't they? (Ms.G) I heard Ern Brown one time, tell about breaking up pneumonia with those things. (Ms.G). . . . she'd get a great big bottle, it'd hold about a quart I guess. And she would put sulfur in that, and fill it full of water, and she'd shake that up, and make us drink that for something. terrible. Ooh, it was And then she would get horseradish roots and cut that up and put it in water, and make us drink the liquid off of that. Something to keep us from being sick, I don't know. Q: Did it keep you pretty healthy? A: (Ms.G) Yeah, we's never sick much. (Mr.G) Yeah, they's never sick. Healthiest set of Joneses I ever seen. Q: I guess they musta' worked, then. A: (Ms.G) You know, them old remedies was good. an awful bad sore throat, I'se nearly grown. I can remember having And she put that onion poultice on my throat, I couldn't hardly talk and it cured me. ... �AOHP #66 Page 16 Oh, that old soggy-wet, nasty thing on my throat, it felt terrible. them onions, shooool And these old hen-an-chickens, ya know, like grows out in the yard, hens an things, ya know. them or not. And I'll show them to ya. I don't know if you've ever seen But they would get that, and would get a cloth and beat 'em up, and then they'd squeeze that out in a spoon, and put a drop or two of that in your ears for earache. cure the earache. And that'd sure See, all this stuff grew for a purpose. Back then people knew what it was for and they used it for things like that. (Mr.G) Nobody knows what it's fer anymore. All folks knows now is when a youngun gets sick, take it to the doctor. (Ms.G) Now, what was that sassafras tea for? That was just as red. It made the purtiest little tea you've ever looked at. Now we buy our tea at the store. Q: I guess everybody does. What does sassafras tea taste like? A; (Ms.G) I don't know hardly how to tell ya. (Mr.G) You've eat sassafras candy, hadn't you? Well it tastes a bit like that. (Ms.G) It was good-tasting. wood tea wasn't too bad, either. No, it wadn't a bad taste. This spice- But they'd make it for supper and drink it at the table for supper of the nights. (Mr.G) Ole boneset was the worst tea that 'uz ever made. (Ms.G) Oh, it was bitter. (Mr.G) I've a mind itis. That must be what quinine's made out of. I know it tastes a lot like quinine. (Ms.G) But that's the way they doctored back then. Never bought no medicines Q: Well, they were making do with what they had? A: (Ms.G) And there was only one phone in the community as I know of. That was Mr. Dan COok and Miss Bertha. They had a phone, back then. of these old-timey wall kinds, up on the wall. a doctor always had to go there and call. One Anybody wanted to send for �AOHP #66 (Mr.G) Page 17 Andrew Cole used to run a store down there below where Tabernacle was. (Ms.G) Did he have a phone? (Mr.G) No, he didn't have no phone. (Ms.G) Well, I'se talking about the phone. that had a phone. Mr. Cook's the only one Now us a-livin1 plum over on Meat Camp, if we wanted a doctor that was the only way. . . than walking all the way to Boone. course that was quicker But we had to walk plumb out here and back, and Mr. Cook's was a pretty long way. Greene's and Mr. Walter's that goes up to Henry Miller and Etta used to live? lived a way on up in a holler. Ya know that road at John the left there? You know where Well, it 'uz up that road. Now we Turn out into another road, right there you, the road, you went a way on up in the holler, about a mile, . . . (Mr.G) Yeah, a mile, I guess. (Ms.G) From up in there, that was a long ways to walk. Q: Can either of you remember anything about any outlaws or badmen around here? A: (Mr.G) Ah, they wasn't many of them. boys that was out through here. I've heard about them Allen Shot up the court that time. (Ms.G) I've heard older people than I am talk about the Allen boys that up the court. (Mr.G) I've heard it said that old man Ed Miller brought 'em through this country, Q: helping 'em get away. I don't believe I've heard anything about that. Do you know what year that was? A: (Mr.G) Uh-uh, I don't know. (Ms.G) No, see we just heard talk of that and didn't ask about the year. �AOHP #66 Q: Page 18 Can you remember any folktales that you heard your parents or grandparents tell? Or legends? A: (Ms.G) I don't know. I can't remember none. Q: What about things like planting in a certain sign? Do you believe in that? A: (Mr.G) Old people, all of 'em used that. (Ms.G) Kinda go bit it yet, some. (Mr.G) I believe in it myself, but I didn't plant in them signs. .. . I agree that the moon has a whole lot to do with it. need to talk to Raleigh Williams. You He'd give ya something on this sign business. Q: Can y'all remember much about the Depression? Did it affect you much? A: (Mr.G) Well, about all it was about that Depression was just big men and all got their money outa the banks and let 'em go broke and nobody could get no money to do nothing with and there wadn't nothing to do. And stuff got so cheap ya could just buy a whole lot of stuff for nothing, about it. (Ms.G) But you couldn't get that little bit of money that it took to buy it with as cheap as it was. You just couldn't get that money. (Mr.G) You couldn't pay a debt. Q: Prices were real low then, but you just couldn't get the money? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, back then you could buy a pair of overalls for seventy- five cents. (Ms.G) Now you spend five. (Mr.G) Six. Q: Where were you living at the start of the Drpression? A: (Ms.G) We lived at P rkinsville, didn't we? (Mr.G) Yeah. Q: Were you living on a farm? �AOHP #66 Page 19 A: (Mr.G) Un-uh. Rented farm. Q: Did you raise everything you needed? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, raised plenty of grain, stuff like that. And managed to get hold of enough money to buy what we had to outa' the store. But we didn't have much. (Ms.G) We didn't raise wheat, and make out own flour. We had to buy flour. (Mr.G) Yes, we did raise some wheat when I lived at Perkinses, Raised wheat 'n rye. Buckwheat. (Ms.G) Yeah, but we didn't make all our bread out of it. I remember us buying some flour. with that Truck, you 'Cause Don't you remember when you hauled off bought some flour? But he could get a hundred pounds for a dollar seventy-five, wasn't it? (Mr.G) Yeah, a hundred pounds of flour fer a dollar and seventy-five cents. (Ms.G) And now, ten pounds cost almost that. Not quite that much, but it costs a dollar thirty-five, I think for just ten pounds. And he'd get a hundred pounds of flour for a dollar seventy-five. Q: How old were your children during the Depression? A: (Mr.G) We just had one. (Ms.G) G. L. was born in '28. Q: How did the Depression change working conditions and getting a job? Was it hard to find a job? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, I'd say it was. Wadn't no jobs to get much. (Ms.G) Well, everybody just farmed, you know. Just weren't any jobs much to get. (Mr.G) And it hurt the people that Depression year hurt the people like Cleveland and places like that hurt worse than it did around here. Cause the people there ya know had jobs. jobs. And it got hard for them to get �AOHP #66 Page 20 (Ms.G) And we've heard a little talk about in Detroit, Michigan, having an effect on the people up there. and had nothing much to live on. got out can And I heard one man say that this man and sold, uh, can something what was it? They got out of work, ya know, what was it? Can openers or You heard him tell it. (Mr.G) I don't know if I did. I forgot about it. (Ms.G) Seem^like it was just can-openers. Just any little thing. He'd get out on the street and try to sell that to make a little money, after he got out of a job, ya know, his work shut do^/n. (Mr.G) Yeah, get anything ya could, and get out and sell it. any way in the world to make a penny. Just Course there wasn't as much stealing and bank-robbing and rogueing a going on today as there is. Q: Did you ever hear of any of the government projects, like WPA & CCC? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, they had some projects like that back then. They didn't amount to much, I don't think. Q: Do you remember when the banks closed? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, they closed when, uh, Roosevelt took office. 'em in the next day or two after he took office. He closed Ordered all banks closed. (Ms.G) I remember hearing Mr. Charlie Hodge say that he acted the quickest of any president we'd ever had. (Mr.G) Then he got 'em a foothold or something some way, and everything began to pick up a little again. a whole lot too. The^he got us in war and that helped And then we've stayed in war ever since. since that day, since war was declared in '40. Still a fightin' some of 'em now. Never been out Never been out of war yet. Over there in Laos, they're fightin1, I reckon some of the Americans is bombing yet. Q: Did the community change very much during the Depression? businesses, and the churches, and the schools? Like the �AOHP #66 A: Page 21 (Mr.G) No, un-uh. (Ms.G) I don't think they's any difference in the schools and the churches. (Mr.G) They've changed a lot more since the Depression than they had before. (Ms.G) Than they did during the Depression, I'd say. Q: Who was hurt worst by the Depression? A: (Ms.G) I don't really know, do you? (Mr.G) Well, I guess the businessman was hurt the worst. they did get all the money Even if . What caused the Depression was everybody drawing their money out of the bank. go broke 'n they started drawing their money out. This fellows was gonna That's what caused it. And then they wouldn't pass no bills or nothing that Hoover wanted to pass so they couldn't do any better. lican president. It was a Democrat congress agin a Repub- They held him down. (MS.G) If a poor man was in debt, he was really hurt. you couldn't get money enough to pay it. Because There just wasn't any money. (Mr.G) Yeah, if a man owed anything A man that didn't owe nothing boys he 'uz in the best shape he'd ever been. Everything 'uz more on equalization then than it's ever been in my lifetime. (Ms.G) But you just could not get any money. Q: Was there anything that was good about the Depression days? A: (Ms.G) Well, I guess there was some. (Mr.G) What 'cha sold brought just as much according as what 'cha had to buy. It don't do it anymore. What 'cha buy is more than what 'cha sell. Now they're fussing about such high prices of beef 'n stuff like that. And now's the only time the farmers have had a chance 'at raise cattle to make a penny 'o money. �AOHP #66 Q: That's right. It's unfair to them. Page 22 I've heard a lot of people say that families were closer during the Depression, and the communities were closer. A: Do you think that's true. (Mr,G) They was. A whole lot closer than they 'air today. (Ms.G) Yeah, that's true. They'd work ten whole hours for a dollar back then and get a dollar a day. buy much with or to pay. They just wouldn't get enough money to Just didn't get much money. Q: What do you like best about the way life is today? A: (Mr.G) Eatin' 'n sleepin'. Q: Well you've been able to do that all along, haven't you? A: (Mr.G) Ah, yeah, I've done more sleepin' before. I can't sleep good no more. Q: Is there any thing you like about what life is like now? A: (Mr.G) Well, we didn't have no electric lights, or no power, or electricity of no kine. to pay. Course now we got plenty of it hooked up and have Nose agin the grindstone to pay our bills. (Ms.G) Well, I know that still we enjoy the lights. (Mr.G) We enjoy the little things we have now. (Ms.G) And now we have a lot more conveniences than we used to have. We have a electric stove, and refrigerator. used to have. We have all that that we didn't That saves a lot of time, and it's nice. (Mr.G) Used to have to do the washin; boil the clothes out in a ole pot and bring 'em up on a rock 'n beat the dirt out of 'em with a stick. Scrub it out with ya fists. Lot more conveniences now. (Ms.G) All the modern conveniences. I like that part about it. I have an automatic washer and that's easier. Now Used to have to scrub 'em by hand. (Mr.G) They's a awful sight o' lazy women, though. Q: Do you think it's because of all the conveniences? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, that's what caused a whole lot of it. �AOHP #66 (Ms.G) That's what he says. Q: Page23 I guess that's the truth. You'd think they'd have more time to visit their neighbors then, wouldn't you? A: (Mr.G) Yeah, but they don't. visit their neighbors. They have to watch TV I reckon, can't Some ole story on TV they want to see. (Ms.G) Well, that's another convenience that we use. Q: What did you do before you had a television? I guess you got to visit your neighbors a lot more then, didn't you? A: (Ms.G) Well, I don't know that we did. (Mr.G) All that time she has now to watch television she had to work than and get her work all done. (Ms.G) It took longer to get "cha work done. And you had to work so much harder you were so tired at night that we always went to bed at nine o'clock. tired. Never stayed up later than that, cause everybody was so You'd go to bed at nine o'clock 'n have to get up "n get a lot done ready to start on a day's work.the next morning. You just didn't have too much time. (Mr.G) You go anywhere to work, you had to be at work seven o'clock. Work till six then of the evenin'. Get in ten hours. (Ms.G) We had to get up earlier then than we do now. And had to work a lot harder. (Mr.G) Boy, I think today, take it all the way around, is a lot better time than it used to be. Q: It sure has changed a lot. A: (Mr.G) Well, I think people's got less care for one another, got twice, three times as little care for one another as they had back then. (Ms.G) Well, seems like we did get our work done more back then in time to visit some durin' the day or through the week or somethin1. anymore we hardly ever go off the place. And �AOHP #66 Page 24 (Mr,G) If I go a-fishin anymore I just have to leave something undone 'n go on. Cause there's always somethin' to do. Back then I'd have plenty o 1 time to go a-fishin' a day out of a week if I wanted to. Course I wadn't trying to work on the job then. I'se working the farm. (Ms.G) Well, if you work at home you can quit anytime you want to and go some place if you want to ro go a-fishin1. ya just don't have the time. But when you work on a job Ya come in late, and its time to milk, and time you eat supper, it's eight o'clock time we eat supper a lot o' nights. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mr. & Mrs. Lee Greene, June 11, 1973 Description An account of the resource Lee Greene was born in Watauga County, North Carolina in 1904 and farmed all his life. Mrs. Greene was born in Meat Camp, North Carolina. Mr. and Mrs. Greene talk about their education in a one-room schoolhouse. Mr. Greene talks about farming and the changes he has seen in the community, specifically in politics. Mrs. Greene explains how to make soap and homemade remedies. Both recall their methods of transportation as children and the transition of using cars. Mr. and Mrs. Greene also recollect memories of the Great Depression. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clawson, Donna Lee, Mr. and Mrs. Greene Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 24 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape66_Mr&MrsLeeGreene_1973_06_11M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-11 Boone cars Chestnut Grove Great Depression homemade remedies Lee Greene Lenoir Maple Springs Meat Camp Perkinsville Politics railroad Sassafras Tea schoolhouse soap Watauga County N.C. https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f3905df2ba703c574ba8227640ecbad0.pdf 444744f7916455869455aa54a4b58318 PDF Text Text AOHP #73 Page 1 This is an interview with Mrs. Elizabeth Hartley^ and her son, William, by Karen Weaver for the Appalachian Oral History Project in Triplett on June 11, 1973. (in this transcript Mr. Hartley and "son" are the same person) Q: First I'd like for you to give me your name and age please. A: Lizzie Hartley, Elizabeth Hartley and I'm 73. Q: Where were you born? A: ABout Q: Did it have a name? a mile over up this holler. Did it have a certain name for the area? A: Arnold's Branch. Q: Arnold's Branch? A: Yeah, Arnold's Branch. Q: How many children were in your family? A: Seven. Q: How many brothers and sisters did you have? A: I had four sisters and two brothers. Q: What did your father do for an occupation? A: He farmed and worked the sawmill. I've never heard of that. �Q: The sawmill? Was it around this area? A: Yeah,rail around this area. Q: Did your mother-was your mother just a housewife? A: Yeah, my father was a carpenter. Q: Was he? A: Built houses. Q: So you had a farm? A: Yeah, yeah we had a farm. Q: Did the children have to help with the work around the farm? A: Yeah, the children helped with the work. Q: What did you have to do? A: Oh, we hoed corn, made a garden, and all such things as that, What did he make? Building, he worked at a carpenter's trade. Is that where you get most of your food from? raised cattle, chickens and hogs. Q: Was it hard work? A: Yeah, it was hard work. Q: How long did you have to work everyday? A: 'Bout twelve hours every day. People worked form sixvo1clock till six o'clock for 60£ a day0 �Q: So you rteally felt like you'd earned that, didif'^. you? A: Yeah and most everybody lived in a one roomed house. Q: The vtiole family? A: Yeah, amd we were raised right here in a little ol' log cabin with-it had three little rooms. One big one and two little ones. There wasn't hardly anybody that even had a stove to cook on. They cooked on fire. Q: You had to cook all your food on fire? A: Yes. There wasn't anybody, only just- I bet there wasn't half a doxon in our community that owned cookstoves. Q: Really? Who were some of the families that had stoves? A: My grandmother had one and Mary Carroll had one. That's the only two I know of in the whole community at that time. Q: I bet living in a small house, did you have alot of fights with your brothers and sisters? A: No, no. I's the oldest girl in a family of seven and I took care of the other young'uns. Q: Oh, so that's mainly what you had to do? A: Yeah. �Q: Did your brothers have to help around the house with the housework? A: No, they didn't do no housework. Q: They just farmed. A: Yeah and fixed wood and things like that. Q: Have you had any jobs? A: Nol Q: lfc>u just lived around here on the farm all A: Yeah, and people used to gather all kinds of herbs and dig roots your life? and all for a livin1. Q: Did you all used to do that? A: Yeah. Q: How much would you make? A: Oh you couldn,'t make nothing hardly. You could a lots a kinds of roots you could dig 'em and dry them and sell 'em for 2$ a pound, and people would dry fruit and sell it for 2C a pound, corn 50£ a bushel and coffee IOC a pound and sugar about 4C a pound, cloth about If a yard. Q: Really? Some of that cloth now is two and three dollars a yardl �A: Yeah. Q: What kind of roots and gerbs did you gather? A: There way May Apple, Blood Root, Black Cohosh, Blue and Stone Root, and Quill Root. Q: Quill Weed? A: Quil Weed, yeah. Hydrangeas, something that is on the root list, hydrangeas was then. Gather pine tips to make Christmas roping and skin white pine bark. Q: What were some of these used for? A: Oh, it was all used for medicine. Q: Can you still sell them today? A: Oh, yeah. It was 2C a pound. (Mrs. Greer's neighbor) Beadwood leaves are 15C a pound green now, 30C for dry. Q? What are they used for? A: Medicine Q: Any particular type of medicine? A: (Mrs. Greer) No, don't know what kind. (Mrs. Hartley) It's Oxblood that they use for heart medicine, they sell it up here at Boone, that medicine for heart trouble made o : of oxblood. u| It had a little purple bloom on it. Star root and Gensang and �lady's slipper, wild cherry bark, "sassyfat" root bark, that's a tree. Q: What is lady's slipper used for, do you know? A: Some kind of medicine, I don't know what. And Beth Root and Indian Turnip, sprigmint and angelico. Q: I've heard some of these, but some I've never heard of before. Like I have heard of ginsang and things like that. They pay a pretty good price for tinat, don't they? A: Dollar an ounce. (Mrs. Greer) get hardly nothing. (son) Pepper drinks that you but. Q: A: It wasn't back then, you didn't You take now, you know these Dr. That's wild cherry flavor. It is? Yeah and this here root beer drinks that you buy? That's sassafras flavor. Q: It is? I didn't know that. So they use some of these herbs for those drinks too?v> A: (Son) I think so. (Mrs. Hartley) Sassafras and you never see no drink made with Beadwood do you? Q: Is that a herb or root or something? A: A little branch. (Mrs. Greer) just pull the leaves off. That's �what we's telling you was 15C a pound, green now. we are talking about spicewood.. (Mrs. Hartley) Mo, Them there are beadwood leaves, they are called witch hazel on the list. Q: Yeah, I have heard of that. Did your family used to use any of these for medicine, like when you could'nt get hold of a doctor? A: Oh, yeah. Make tea out of them and catnip, catnip tea. TMey used to make catnip tea and boneset and lemon balm and another kind we gathered, bugle weed, and wild horse mint. What people hepatitis 'now, wild cherry- tea from wild cherry bark will cure that in two or -three days. (Mrs. Greer)- Lord a mercy, yeah. I took my, one of my young'uns had it one time, had that for I don't know how long and I took her to the doctor time after time and she didn't get no better, just laid there like she's dead or something. Little girl came up and she was-well her and Mizelle was A'sout the same age I reckon and she said, "I had that stuff and Momma made me some wild cherry bark tea," and said, "It cured me". So I said wouldn't j^t, no harm in trying. ANd I went down here and got me some and fixed her some and in three days she's well. Q: Did you tell the doctor what you had done? A: No, they wouldn^tbelieve you. it. He'd say some of his medicine done �8 Q: Wild cherry bark, is that what it is? A: Yeah (Mrs. Hartley)' and Balm of Gilead buds you pick them. I picked eleven pounds one time and took them to Boone and got eleven dollars for it. Q: Really? Do they fix. them in town or do they send them off somewhere? A: They ship them. Q: Did you mother or grandmother used to have any home remedies, like for Wtan4lvLkids were sick? A: Oh yeah, Catnip tea and wild cherry tea, boneset. If I had to die or drink boneset , I'd have to die because I couldn't swallow that. Q: A: That is a bitter thing, oh nasty. (Mrs. Greer) Corn silk tea's good for your kidney's if you can get it ciown, but getting it down. (Son) Have you ever tasted any Quinine? Q: I have heard of it, but I have never tasted of it I don't think. A: (Mrs. Greer) Well they used to give us quinine when we was little for a high fever. Q: Really? Did it cut it down? �A: Yeah, but it would run you crazy. (Mrs. Hartley) was assifidity, you buy it at the drugstore. That there You can put that in a- put that in some kind ofaicokol, it is awful good medicine for your stomach. (Mrs. Greer) Yeah, for babies for the cholic. (Mrs. Hartley) Now you can tell her what you make. Q: (To Sofl) What do you make? A: Well, few dancing dolls,-and churns, buckets, and lamps. Things of that nature. Q: How did you get started in doing these things? Making these things. A: Making them? Q: How did you get started making them? A: How did I get started? Q: Why did you get started making them? A: I picked it up myself. Q: You just wanted to start making them? A: Yeah, well in fact I think I must have been gifted to work like that because that is what I like. Q: You sell these to craft shops? �10 A: Yeah to different places. There's not alot to be made at it because there is to many in it. Ocaasionally I build a little machinery once in a while for woodwork as the drill, lathes, grip saws, ^B^rfLuS. a"d things like that. Q: What kind of instruments do you have, do you own that you play? A: I have three right now, two guitars and a harmonica. Q: You have a dulcimer, don't you? A: (Mrs. Greer) Yeah, he's gonna build him one. one to build him one. (Mr. Hartley)) not mine, I borrowed ri.t. He borrowed that The dulcimer , that's I got it and I'm gonna get the pattern off of it to build one for myself. Q: Oh, how long do you think it'll take to build one? A: Weil, now I wouldn't have the least idea, because I ha^re never built one of those. Q: Well that makes sense. A: Well, no, I just work around home. craft work. Do you have a certain job you work at? I do garden work, I do some Well, occasionally I'll work away from home <X livrl^j help somebody finish a house of something like that, but not very often. Q: Oh, so you just stay around home and work mainly and carve all this �11 stuff? A: Well, I have been playing the guitar and other instruments like that. I reckon I been where I could play an organ ever since I coiald walk because they was an organ in the home when I was born wasn't there? Q: Who played it? A: The whole family. Q: Where did you get it? A: (Mrs. Hartley) (Mrs. Hartley) Yeah. Roebuck then. Ordered it fro'm Roebuck, Sears. (Mr. Hartley) I am gonna show you. It was Sears I have something in a few minutes It is a 1908 Sears catalog. Q: Really? Is it an original one? A: (Mrs. Hartley) Yeah. Q: Is it one that you all had? A: (Mr. Hartley) I found it advertland and I bought it. In a few minutes I'll get that out and we will go through it. Q: Okay. What can you remember about the Depression? A: (Mrs. Hartley) Well, I don't remember anything unusual that happened, Alot of people suffered for something to live on and you would see people- we lived in Tennessee part of the time at that time and you would see whole wagon trains going down there and stop �12 everywhere a wanting potatoes or something to live on. We made it pretty good through the Depression, but a lot of people suffered. Q: So it didn't affect you all as far as food? A: No, as far as food was concerned it didn't bother us. Q: Did any of the children leave home during the Depression to find work? A: No. Through the last Depression, now we went through two- one ±>out 1916 and one about 1930 and the first on I believe was the worse than the last one. We skinned pine bark and gathered stuff and bought food we had to have and o£ course we always put up a lot of food at home. (Mr. Hartley) Well the way it was, I remember just a little bit about it because I was very young, but the pBople that owned right much property and owned their own home where they could farm it, they made fairly wellthey growed allftheir own foor, but the people that rented or depended on jobs- they suffered. Q: Were neighbors helpful to each other during this time? Did they help each other out a lot during the depression? A: Oh yes. Some did- them that had anything divided with them that didn't. (Mr. Hartley) Well it was about the same way then I think it is now, there as some people that wouldn't work regardless, (Mrs. Hartley) and we helped Virgil folks down here out. had a big family. They �13 They didn't have - they owned their own home, but they didn't make much. We helped them out a lot. We always kept hogs , we killed hogs every fall, had plenty of meat, kept cows and had plenty of milk and butter and things like that. And then we growed a lot of corn and potatoes and beans and all kinds of stuff like that. Q: What about -this first depression? in 1916. A: I had never heard about it- What can you remember about it? I don't remember to much about that. remember that at all can you Vear? But these people- you can't It was hitting pretty hard on them, at that time, them that didn't have nothing to live on. And we gathered pine bark and all such things as that in order to buy the the things you can't raise like sugar and coffee, salt and stuff like that. (Mr. Hartley) Made no difference what you took to the store when they ran out of herbs at regular how much, you never got no money for it. If you get enough you get it all up in groceries or whatever you needed. They wrote out what they called a due bill. Q: A what? A: (Mrs. Hartley) A due bill. not a penny. Wouldn't never give you no money, People couldn't hardly get enough money to pay their taxes at all. Q: What did they do when they couldn't pay their taxes? A: They just let them go until they could pay them. �14 Q: Just let it pile up kind of? A: Yeah, our tax never did. We never did have our property advertised for tax, but the last paper we got there's two whole pages people's land advertised for tax. Q: They advertised it for sell for their tax. A: So they could pay their tax they were gonna sell their li'.nd— A: Mo they had to pay it with that. Now a lot of people owns enough that they pay their tax and never miss it, but they don't want to you see. (Mr. Hartley) What's the matter with times now they're taxing people so high and they're getting sick of it. (Mrs. Hartley) They will tax them so high that they CQiA't pay it hardly. Q: You said that your father had a farm. Did he ever take any of his products into towns to sell? A: No not much, well they used to. Used to take a yoke of oxsns and a load of Irish potatoes to Lenoir. Take them about three days to go «Iown there and back and they would take them a load of Irish potatoes down there to town and sell them and bring back a load of flour. Q: How would he get it? Would he get his flour like in A: Iibags just like it's bought now, cloth bags. back a thousand ppund6 at one tirae. I have seen him bring �15 Q: A thousand? How long would it take you all to run through a thousand pounds of flour? A: Oh, we didn't use it all. He let other people have alot of it. I would ruin before we could use a thousand pounds. Q: What else could he get besides flour? When he took his produce in what else could he bring hack? A: Well he never did bring anything , but flour. Q: Is that all? A: .Yeah. You see they had a little grocery store round here just below the church and there's one down on the creek and you could get all things like that, well we could have got flour, but I remember Wivius_ 4iu/ju. wasn't no flour in the stores, nor no meal either, Q: Why not? A: They just didn't sell it then. the flour mills to but flour. They'd have to go to Lenoir to the (Mr. Hartley) We raised wheat, lot of wheat, had to take it to the mill and have it ground. Q: Did you have a lot of wheat? A: No, not too much. Q: Just enough to live off of? A: Yeah, we raised wheat and rye, cut it by hand. �16 Cut it with an old-fashioned cradle. I bet you've never seen one one of them. Q: A: I don't know whether I have or not. Oh they had a blade that long and then a little bitty fingers on it about- they's little bigger round than your finger and I guess they was about 40 inches long. You'd just take that cradle, swing it around, get you a bundle and just pour it off of it. You'd get about a bundle ever lick. and rye both. I've bound wheat Go along behind the cradle and tie it up in shocks and let it dry and then stack it or thrash it- stack it and then the thrashing machine come and thrashed it, after there got to be any thrashing machines. A lot of people thrashed it out by hand. Q: How would you do that? A: Fixed them a thrasing floor and spread that our on it and just beat that grain out of it. Q: Oh, I ' l l bet that was hard work, wasn't A: Yeah. it? Then you could hold it up and the wind was blowing it'd blow every bit of the chaff and trash out of it and you just had clean wheat. Q: Isn't there something in the "Bible about the wind blowing the chaff away. �17 A: Yeah Q: With all the work around the farm, when did you all find time to play? A: When you were children? Oh we didn't play none. I was having to tend to the young'uns till I got too big to play. Q: So you never got to play? A: No, No. Q: Did your brothers and sisters ever have any little games that I didn't play none. No. they used to play? A: Oh yeah. Played ball and once in a while I could get time to jump rope or something. (Mr. Hartly) Q: What would you do? A: Veil, we'd get out and maybe we'd go somewhere there's a big a big whole of water- go swimming, or we'd get out in a good cool place in the voods, set around and talk, find us a good grapevine to swing on and played with that. Then after we ' <' learned to play music we'd get together some of us over the weekends, get back where it was cool at. Maybe a whole crowd of us gather around, play sing, and dance. sometimes keep as many as four cows (Mrs. Hartley) We'd and it's whole lot of trouble to take care of youTmilk and keep it clean. �18 Q: How would you go about doing it? A: Well, you'd just milk the cows and then strained your milk and diurn, make butter. And we kept four or five old hogs all the time and we'd feed the hogs milk and now give $1.;35 a gallon for milk. Q: Did you have any kind of ice box or something to keep your milk and stuff in? A: No, but it kept in the spring. Kept a race below the spring water ran in it all ihe time. Q: Oh, I bet it kept a lot colder, too, didn't it? A: Yeah, it kept it good and cold. We had a spring box down here when we lived here and we kept our milk in the water. (Mr. Hartley) The way we'd do-that we'd get some kind of good wide board, make a box* Make it waterproof. Go right down below the spring, we'd dig out a space in that branch there that would fi>^ it so the water would stand about eight inches deep in the box -and the W^W- hjojld, flow through that box all the time and that's what kept the milk and butter cold. Q: Looks like after a while the water would start to rot the box or something. A: Oh, it won't run under the water at all. �19 Q: What the box. wouldn't be under water? A: No, not under water, no. Q: How long did you have to use it like this before you got an icebox1 A: I guess about my whole lifetime up until about thirty years ago. Q: Really? A: About thirty of thirty-five years old. I guess I was thirty-five, maybe forty before we ever got refrigerator. our first refrigerator in '55. five years old then. (Mr. Hartley) We got (Mrs. Hartley) Well,X was fifty- (Mr. Hartley)) Well, you see we didn't get ttie electricity until '54, then '55 we got the refrigerator. (Mrs. Hartley) We didn't have no electricity till about '54. Q: Iteally? A: (Mr. Hartley) They didn't nobody around down in here have no electric til right up around '53. (Mrs. Hartley) Electric wasn't down in here til that time. Q: Wasn't that hard not having electricity? A: Well you never was used to it, you wouldn't miss it, if you never knew nothing about it. But now if you were to go back and didn't have electricity it would be rough. It would be bad now. never was a car down here til about '22, 1922. down here. There Not even one car �20 Q; Really? Do you remember if that is that the first time you had ever seen a car? A: Oh, no. I had rode in a car before that time. Q: Wiat did you think about the car when you first saw it? A: Oh, I didn't think much about it. First car I was ever in was Charlie Watson's, when Roxy and Deity, my two sisters went to Boone to lave their tonsils out. and I rode in that car. taken out. That was nineteen and eighteen I went with them to KuVt- their tonsils But the first car that was ever down in here was Seymore Carroll's car and they never was a car down in here til '22. Q: Why not? Just nobody down here had one? At No they couldn't get in and out of here. There wasn't no road. Couldn't get in and out, no there wasn't no road they could drive on. Q: So that's how you traveled before you had a car? A: Yeah, walked. I walSed. I could walk then. First time I ever went to Boone I was eighteen years old before I ever went to Boone. Q: How long would it take you getting there wilking? A: Oh not long, not too long, no. Deerfield, that way. Went up to Jake's mountain through �21 And the first time I ever went to Boone I went up there to my mothers sisters, walked up there. We got back home about two o'clock. Q: Did you? And that is the first time that you had been to Boone? A: First time I ever went to Boone I was eighteen years old. Q: What did you think about it? What did it look like when you were eighteen, what did the town look like? A: I don't remember. cThere wasn't too many buildings there. I remember Roby Blackburn's, went into see him, she-her son had died and she went up there to, have , be appointed administrator. Roby Blackburn up there and he asked me how old I was. And I saw I told him I was ei ghteen and he said I was old enough to begin to court just a little bit but I wasn't old enough to get married yet. Now most all the buildings that was up there at town, I would say fourteen years ago, was torn down. Q: Really? What kind of buildings were up there? A: Well, there's some of them was dwellings and some of them was for business purposes. Now up at the place where I bought my first Gibson guitar I ever owned was tore down. the theater is at? You know that parking lot just above it? Right there. Q: You know where That is where it was? The store? �22 A: Yeah, it belonged to Richard Greene. Q: Richard Greene? A: Yeah he owned it. He owned the store? He had his music store in the basement of his house.' Q: And it/s torn down? A: He is dead now. Did he go into another business or what? I have got the guitar now yet, the one I bought from him. Q: The very first one you bought? A: No, it is just the third one but it is the first Gibson. Q: Oh, -that is the kind that my brother has. I think it is a Gibson. When'did you get your first guitar? A: The first guitar I got was in, the first one that I ever owned I got it in 1936. Q: Who did you get it from? A: Sears and Roebuck. Q: Did you? A: Uh huh. Do you still have it? I wished I had kept it. A guitar like it today costs $32.00 and that one costs four dollars and thirty-nine cents. �23 Q: What kind was it. A: Silverstone. Q: Prices have certainly changed. A: (Mrs. Hartley) You could get a good cow for $15.00 but you had to work thirty days to get that $15.00. Q: WMit, just doing any kind of work? A: Any kind of woirk that you done you just got 50C a day and you had to go to work at 6:00 of the morning and work till 6:00 of the evening, for 50C. Q: That is the most you could make was 50£? A: 50C, 50C a day, and people got so they could get a dollar a day for work and they thought they's going to town. Women, when they worked they got 25C a day and the woman would do just as much a« the man, they got, a man got, 50C a day and that wasn't fair. Q: What kind of jobidid the women have to do? A: Oh, they would get and work in the fields hoeing corn and working out like tbat. Q: What about the men, what did they do? A: They would do things like that too. Worked in timber and the saw- �24 mill, cut timber and logs, and I worked in the sawmill. They wasn't no way to get lumber out of here only haul it out with,* team. Couldn't get in here with a truck. Q: Either oxen or horses? A: Oxens or horses. Q: Didn't you say that your father worked wi-fk the sawmill? A: Yes Q: Would he just cut up the lumber? A: He usually logged. Q: Logged? A: Pull logs into the sawmill out of the mountains. What would he do, what do you mean by logging? He'd pull them with teams and he done a lot of carpenter work, too. (Mr. Hartley) He helped build every house that was built in the neighborhood, until he died. Q: He was probably a pretty \\&rd worker then, pulling all that stuff. A: Yeah Q: How long has it been since you have made a quilt? A: I ain't been too long. four years. (Mrs. Greer-neighbor) It's been about (Mrs. Hartley) I guess it has since we made one. But I've got some more to make cause I have got some to quilt. �25 I ain't got nowhere to put them up to quilt. Ain't got room in here and it is too hot upstairs in the summer time and too cold in the winter time. Q: Where did you used to quilt them? A: We'd quilt them right here but we didn't have as many things in this room, (Mrs. Hartley left the room to get a quilt to show me so I talked to Mr. Hartley about school until she got back.) Q: How much schooling did you have? A: I went to the fourth grade and then I got sick end had to quit. Q: Do you remember your first year of school, the Very first day of of school? A: Yeah, I didn't like it. Q: You didn't like it? A: Well, I didn't like my teacher awfully good. Q: Where did you go to school? Ai It was down here. Why not? I tell you, you know down yonder where come down, you know where the church is around there? Well, you know where you come on down to that road you turn left to come straight on down this way? Well you remember after you got on down, you �26 remember that house that's setting over that creek? Right there was where the school house was at. Q: Really? How long has it been since they have torn it down? A: They te.d the last school house there at the '40 flood. (Mrs. Hartley returned with her quilt) Q: Oh, this is beautiful! When did you make this one? A: It ain?.t been too long since we quilted this one. Q: Is this a certain pattern? A: Star. (Mr. Hartley) If she wants to make a certain design in her quilting, I help her figure her patterns out. Q: Do you make up the patterns? A: Yeah Q: I knew that there were some certain patterns to go by but I didn't know that you all had made these up. pretty. A: Oh, these are Now, do you do these by machine or hand or what? (Mrs. Hartley) I can do it by hand or by machine or either one, It is quilted by hand. Q: Are you ging to go back to quilting? A: I don't know. I don't know whether I could or not. I've got �27 I ain't hardly able to do nothing. A: (Hr. Hartley) People used to talk about seeing such hard times back then, I don't wonder at it. Took everything they could rake and scrape to buy buttons with to go on the clothes aad they was made of brass, and brass never was cheap. (Mrs. Hartley) Well, people back then didn't know how to have nothing. The land vas worth three times as much as it is now and -they planted about four hill of corn to the acre. (Mr. Hartley) They would plant •the corn four foot apart each way. Q: They just didn't know? A: (Mrs. Hartley) Didn't know hosr to do it. take you right now and show you a farm. (A\r. Hartley) I can It is in Ashe County and it is a beautiful farm too and way back, it is a great big farm about 300 acres was sold for one old hog rifle. Swapped for one rifle. Q: Really? Whose farm'-is it? A: Cooper's, Cooper's farm. (Mrs. Hartley) People used to buy all all the land the land they wanted for $4.00 an-acre. (Mrs. Hartley) Sell any kind of old bluff for $2.00 an acre. Q'i Why do you think their has been such a drastic change in the prices of land and everything>else? A: Well I don't know. People has just got to be bigger dogs than �28 they used to be I reckon. (Mr. Hartley) and what's run the prices of land up here in the mountains so much is the people from Florida and also from the North coming back here, and what I think has really happened is people has made so much money they either have a farm or a lot that costs just so they got it. See they could buy that land cheaper than they could pay their income tax. Q: What do you all think about all these people coming from Florida aid like from the North coming in and building houses and all these condominiums and things on top of mountains? A: (Hrs. Hartley) Well, I don't exactly approve of that, do you? (Mr. Hartley) Well, I will tell you what I think about that. I think we should hold that more or less for the people in our own state. a home. Now say for instance,say you wanted to go buy you How much more would that home cost you on that account? A 30, a $25.000 and a $30.000 home now ain't worth over $45.000. And they will burn you. up building it. And'the labor costs on a home now is more than the material to build it. people wfisn^t work like they used to did. Because And most of the contractors when you build now, they build you a house at costs plus 10%. Well they don't try to save nothing on that building material. They don't try to save nothing on the lot. Now they don't care how long it takes them to build it, why the more they are going to make. self. (Mrs. Hartley} Well, built our house practically his He cut every piece of framing in it but three. it his self. He built �29 Q: How long did it take you to build it? A: Well, in getting my^timber out and having it sawed, it took me a little over a year. See, I cut my own logs and had them sawed. I built this houee for a little less thafa $22.00. I am thinking about, I don't know whether I will or not, I been thinking a little bit about building me another one. Me and a friend of mine are going to buy a sawmill, in fact we are going to build us one a piece. Yeah, we are going to cut our own timber. Q: Where would you build it? A: I would probably build right around here somewhere and my friends gonna build one about a quarter of a mile on up above here. Right there's where I was born and raised. Q: You said awhile ago when I was talking to you about school. Do you remember any experiences that you had in grade school? A: Well, not but a very few of them, Matter of fact, what I liked about school, only it was different than it is now. We run up with a problem then in school that you didn't know what to do with, your teacher, she would come to your seat and sit with you and explain dt to you and help you, or my teachers would. She would work with the whole class like that as long as we had her for a teacher. learned in school and learned and learned fast. And my favorite subject was arithmetic, but today we call it math. Q: How much schooling did you have Mrs. Hartley? We �30 A: They just, when I was growing up they was just three months school. Maybe I would get to go two or three days during the whole term. never went to school none to amount to nothing. I (Mrs. Greer) She can out read any body you ever seen. Q: Did you teach yourself to read? A: Yeah. Q: You did? A: Well, •-! just got to reading every little thing I could come across. How did you know how to teach yourself? (Mrs. Greer) there? Q: You see all them books and things stacked up across She reads everything in the world. That is really good. What about your brothers and sisters, did they get to go to school? A: Oh yeah, they went to school. Q: Did your parents go to school? A: Yeah, both of them could read and write. Q: How many years did £hey go? A: I don't know. They didn't have no school much. Back then children didn't get to go to school, they had to work, and their wasn't no compulsion school laws then. Q: I never went to school none hardly. Do you know what they used'to do Hor discipline in the schools? �31 A: Used to whip them. stand up. Sometimes make them slay in. Sometimes make them I was going to school in an old log cabin, and one boy, they made him stand up and he fainted. He was a grown man just about, Granville Tripplett. Q: Who was it? A: Qranvilfc Tripplett. Q: Do you say you went to school in a log cabin? A: Yeah. Q: Was it one room? A: fust one room and they didn't have no glass in them, just open He is dead now. windows and a big old fireplace, they kept a fire in it, big old chimney, kept a fire in. Q: Who would keep the chimney supplied with wood? A: Well, the students would. Yeah, they was woods all around it and and they would cut the wood. Q:, About how many students would be in the classroom? A: They would be about. I've got a group here of pictures taken, maybe I can find it. Q: What did they used to do for discdpLine when you went to school? A: (Mr. Hartley) Well, sometimes they would use a switch on them, �32 sometimes a paddle or they'd rnark a ring out in the center of the floor and make them stand on one foot for a certain length of time. Q: What if they would fall? What would the teacher do if they lost their balance? A: Send them back to their seat. Then alot of times they would make them mark a ring on the floor and make them hold their arm up like that for a certain length of time, ot again go up and put a dot on the board and make them stand on their tiptoes with their nose in that dot on the chalkboard. Q: Just anything they could think of to do. A: Yeah. But I will tell you though, the teacher I had was good to them but she kept them under control. Q: Was she a strict teacher? A: Well, the same teacher I went to was my first grade teacher, second, third and fourth grade as the grades come up for me, why she got up, she come up and started teaching higher grades., Q: Who was she? A: It was Ollie Triplett at that time, it is Ollie Thompson now. Q: So she would just move up with you all in the grades? As you would move up to another grade, she would move up? A: Well, see she would go to school herself when school was out. She �33 would build herself up to it,. She'd teach around here and -then when school was out she would go to college. Q: Well how would the teacher go about teaching if you were all different ages? A: Would he teach you all at one time? No, they had certain classes for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th grades. Q: Would they all be in the same room? A: Yeah. Q: What would the other ages be doing when he was teaching another age group? A: They was, they'd just call them up to class and have them recite one class at a time. Q: What would the others be doing though? A: Be studying. (Mr. Hartley) I believe folks back then days too Wis alot stricter with their younguns than they are now. Back then it is a possibility that they were too strict with their family andnow it is a possibility that some of them are not strict enough. Don't you believe that a lot of this doping that has got dnto the college and many different places, don't it start at the students homes? Q: I couldn't really say. �34 A: (Mrs. Hartley) No, I don't really believe parents, if they know that, I don'tAtheir parents would allow it. Of course alot of the parents are dopes too. (Mr. Hartley) Yeah, what I mean, I think alot of times I believe these things begins at home. Q: Probably so. Probably has the roots of it at home. A: Or at least in the hometown. You see, the students that go to college up there are from all over. some cases their from other nations. All over the nation and I don't know you might not agree but I think in America, I don't think they should allow anybody in Boone to have schools but for theJAmerican students. And you know that as messing up our nations too much and that is giving other nations the chance to learn too much about our affairs, Q: You think they should stay in.their own nations and country and go to their own schools? A: I think that we'd be better off. Q: That is interesting. A: This United Nations"4Keu have got I don't think too much of fchat. Because we are paying for all of it and the other nations are paying for none of it. Q: We are paying all the expenses. You don't think that it is helping keep peace or something with other countries or anything? A: There^ is no way to keep peace with other countries because we have �35 done found, looks to me we've done found that out. All they are doing now, just trying to get everything out of us that they can and we are giving it to them. Now I have had people that stayed in i Germany for three or four years andhow I had a cousin, her and her husband stayed ovet there for four years and she told me that the German people had any love for Americans they did not. they hated our guts. fact. (Mrs. Hartley) She said that And I wouldn't doubt it that ain't about the Now I think that our government authorities is just doing the American people awful wrong. They are taxing them out of all reason in the world and then sending it to them people over seas now that is not fair. I don't think they should do that. (Mr. Hartley) Well, now you know when they settled this here peace treaty there in Vietnam, whenithey went- and signed that peace treaty and they wanted to i give North Vietnam so many million dollars, two and and a half million, I think, and South Vietnam two and a half million , I agree with you that isn't fair, it isn't fair. Q: What, to give them the money? A: To give thm the money to build back with. They was the ones that started the war and they were the ones tho^" tore up everything. Vfty not let them fix it back themselves. Q: Where would they get the money to fix :it back? A: (Mrs. Hartley) Where did they get all the money to buy all that equipment for the war? �36 Q: Well, that is right. A: (Mr. Hartley) I think to let them whup theirselves, that would teach them a leason. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William and Elizabeth Hartley, June 11, 1973 Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Hartley was born in Arnold's Branch, North Carolina in 1900 and lived on a farm where her only job was to collect herbs and dig roots. William Hartley is the son of Elizabeth Hartley. Mr. and Mrs. Hartley both talk about growing up and childhood activities such as picking herbs, but they both agreed their childhoods were mostly hard. Mr. Harley talks about playing instruments like the organ and his interest in music, while Mrs. Hartley discusses her hobby of quilting. They both reminisce about what it was like living through the Great Depression and such as using electricity for the first time in 1953 and seeing their first car in 1922. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Weaver, Karen Hartle, William and Elizabeth Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 36 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape73_William&ElizabethHartley_1973_06_11M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Triplett, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-11 Elizabeth Hartley farming Great Depression herbs homemade remedies instruments Quill Weed quilt making quilts roots sawmill schoolhouse Triplett William Hartley https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1c04874866d2f6313dada5f54c78381b.pdf e9fdcfa2c1181ce72c540cb6fcb66ae6 PDF Text Text -p I—j •H *—1 £ !H O 43 •H T: CIj -p 0 ^H CLj •H ^Til T",' rH _d :ti e d CU S-Hl _f_i 0 r.Q * h^j ,—\: •~-J o £_^ PH r*i SH O -P GJ S O ^ (i) -^ 'H. • o G.' 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'H—• ""•te P-J ^ i£l ^g CTJ •H l> (Tj i-A GO 43 Q; ,-VH _C TJ •H rir^ &•! c\ o r-ti ft JU --j O t^ Qsj t-J & \\) ! -H cA i—i •3 *-j O.1 r-0 •rH i—t JH -p 0) ^H ^ CU tu) cti PL, ""^ . t_0 ' , " P^i .4...) S~i ri" -^H S "G d r-J r-^ 03 rQ ft f>? JD .O cO O •,2 , H 0 lij jj ;y* «C| ^-XJJ r\^ »% fH '.Ti O S-t -P~ Cn -O SH (D -j~3 ,-TJ VJ b o * £ —j K ! i-- _c; • ^-H T.1 CD ^ o •H SH •CD -P T" cti f.'} C? �Page Q: Were .your chicken;:; principlly fcr egg production? A: X e a h , just for eggs. Q: Did yen. have any boilers or roaster;;? A: No, we just carried a few layers mostly then. Took, one ana ate ore occasionally, jutvt more for laying, Q: Were you cows principlly .fcr meat or for milk? A: T b e y ' s for milk., most alt for milk and calves. Q: ¥ our hogs. W e ' d kill a b e e f , bat prin^:iplly Raise the calves, you k n o w , and sell them. You mentioned, you had hogs. f a r m , o.r did you let A: of them. Dio yon keep them on the them run f r ^ c ? No we kept them up here in pens. We never did let them run. out r u o h We just .kept three or lour for our killing, you know what 1 .moan. A: us abont t h a t ? A: Well, I remember about Easter, UL- boys would get out, and :.:i;ea.L the egg,., ana hirie them in the hay stack' a.nd w e ' d have around, 1 guesG, half a. bushel of Easter egg,-3 that w e ' d g e t . gach as that, 1 remember- t h a t mighty good. Q: Did you color egge? A: Yeah, colored eggs, bcilea egge, fried eggs, I looked forwarn to "Easter. Q: What aid you use to color the eggs? A: Well, we u e u a J l v got. gras:- and onion hull;: to make our green- Brovaa, �Page 3 now that was alder bark. Ana blue, I forget what we made the blue out o.f. We used to make up a coloring out of stuff like that you know and color. Get a pretty good, color too. Mrs. A: A: And then we'd get cloth, you know,, that would fade... ...put that around them and that there would make a pretty color. Q: How was Christmas? A: Well, my Christmas was gun shooting, gun mostly. fellow to hunt, shoot guns. you know, have a big time. Mrs. A: Coming down A: I was a powerful We'd usually get out a crowd of us hunting, Looked forward to old Santy when we was young. the chimney. Never did get to see him come down the chimney, and I finally dec idea there wasn't any Santy Glaus. $: Did he bring you anything? A: Yeah, he'd usually bring us some toys. back them days, and a bucket of candy. And my A stick of candy mostly, stepmother'd make a whole lot of little cookies, you know, like animals and such as that. We thought that was a big Christmas, you know, then. Mrs. A: A: You got to make fire balls and throw them. Yeah, get to make fire balls. A crowd of us get out 'with kerosene, roll them up about as big as of your fist, and soak them in kerosene oil. Get us on some gloves and we'd throw them as high as they coula. had a big time such as that. Boy, we Shooting firecrackers, roman candles, skyrocket; Q: Were there any celebrations of the Fourth of July around here? A: No, they never did pay much attention back then to the Fourth of July. About like any other day. They went about, everybody. They worked on the Fourth of July just same as they would the third. usually celebrate, you know, on the Fourth of July. But now, they A lot of people. �Q: How w'i s the work on the farm done princlplly, like yc^r plowing, your cultivating? A: Plowed it kith a yoke of cattle. Kce it kith hoet;. Cultivate, maybe with one steer, single steer, you know, tangle yoke. Mrs. A: A: Thought you bad some horses? No, he never did Keep much. a yoke cattle. Always had When they'd got 30 big and old, he'd nell them off, and get iiim a. young one, and I'd break Q: He liked a yoke o.i' cattle. them in for bin. Were mot:t of the crops that you grew for your owr; use or aid you eeil Gome? A: No, we j u s t a b o u t made enough for buy a. little. Q: curcelves. Now ana tiv-n have bc^ D o n ' t reckon ive ever sold i'ny. How omen y t u f f were you able to produce on your farm and how K U C H ,:;tu.ff did you have to go to the store and buy? A: We produced might near to everything e,xcept sugar salt, eoaa a r x " . . . . Mra.A: Coffee. A: 'Coffee and stuff like that, We rna.de about everything V;H oat back then, e.xcept something like that. MrB.A: Had their own cows and milk, you know, eniekene, egg:;. Had their own hogs. A: They depended on making their living and laying it up. their living up in the summer to o:.o them that w i n t e r . get out i:n'id w o r k or e] ;:,p they cut They d i d n ' t have to fi.rewood or something, and eut firewood. Plenty of timber, you knov:. a big tree, une it for firewood. They laid lined f j I'eplace:-, A man could get out ana cut 1 guens that tree would now bring two or t h r e e hundred d e J l a r a . Q: How did they keep the food.? you t;aid they laid up in tine '..aiiruaei1. �What would they ri.r-:e i.n the winter. A: How' aid th.ey preserve Well, corn we had a big crib, you know. get dry, and put it :in tlier^. bar1"!-Is arid s t u f f ' , ry- j . Meat, y o u ' d salt it layer of s a l t . it? W e ' a shuck our corn when it Buckwheat, i t ' d ary out and w e ' d j u s t put in I t ' d keep it right, on, I r e c k o n . away in a. tog meat box you knew. 1 d o n ' t knove. A layer of meat, •-> Had enough meat there to last no telling how long. Now i t ' s go to the store to get a little piece. Q: Y e a h , and t h a t ' s a b o u t all you get, a little piece. A: A little piece tor a lot of money. A: HOK as-out the fruits and vegetables? (to Mrs. A) You rtdghf be able to tell me about that. fD's.A: A: About drying. he know;s more about if t h a n I do. h e ' s the one t h a t . . . . They canned oher.ries, si.raivberries, apples, stuff like that. usually has plenty of that to do us. Raised ca,ne. T~e.y Make cane molasses, PI-.T, them in a b.i g barrel, you iino^. Mrs.A: A: you? Had bees, drawed them. Put honey in cans. The "way we done that molasses. You never seen a molasses barrel, did I t ' s a b o u t like a 60 gallon oil barrel. A wooden barrel. And t h e r e ' s a big, they called it a bung hols:, you know about the middle of i t . get a funnel and pour the moiass.es down, in there and he had him pieces of timber, He'd a conple lie wanted to get molasses, h e ' d just roll that <iown to where t h e y ' d come out t h e r e , when you wanted to get you out some to e a t . Q: How did you make molasses? A: You raised cane, you stip it, a cane mill, ana boil the juice down. and top it. Haul it in, srind it in 1 guess i t ' d take about five gallon o f ' j u i c e i,o make a gallon of moia.sees, something like that.. a whole lot of juice, you k n o w . Grind if But tk^y made in a cane mill and make s �wa ber coming out all the time. Q: You never did, see any made, did y o n ? I ' v r seen films of people making it, I ' v e never seen It in p e r s o n . Did you all make maple syrup. A: Tap trees and make maple syrup and tree sugar. Tap ane. boil the wattr down like you. do the other, only not as big of vessels. as RID oh water as yoa do with cane juice. You. d o n ' t get Takes about a bushel of water to make about a quart of molasses of the sugar tree water. you never seen any made of tree molasses, 1 guess? Did, you ever see - Sugar, maple syrup? Well, we caLleo it t r e e molasses. Q: Was the tre<-s sugar that you m a d e . . . . A: We boiled it on a little more, a little longer , than when it got down to molasses. Pour it put , i t in, you know. out in a vessel, grease your vessel yoi s i^anf t.o Make a cake, a dish or something, tea cup or anything, pint, -4 little butter it and, grease. while i t ' s colling, a ca l -e of tree sugar. Pour it out in there hot. You stir i t Ano, then when if got cool, if was hard you Know. Just It was good t o o . Q: 'Was it A: Used what? Q: Did they use the tree sugar more than white sugar? A: N o , they used more white siigar then tree sugar a lot. sugar. used a lot instead of regular white sugar? Brown and whits Used a right smart amount of brown sugar back then. Q: Did you ever do any sawmilling? A: Not very much. Not enough to say anything. Worked around i.ner: just a little b i t , packing lumber or something, but t h a t ' s about a l l . Q: You said earlier that your f a t h e r owned, a store. How big of a store to.^8 it? A: Oh, 1 I w a s n ' t a very big store. Just a little eld country store. �: aitirq iT5T.fi ' noa SDETT UT s o u a j e i T T p jo wi y S p^D99r,i /su'i j;r C - q. ,api;noM o.i^qjj *q.rioq *.:JJOK s,A'r3'n K JOT noA" ^.rtq pYno« opdosd * U T AOUOUI no/ §UTJQ pynoM TT'KK sny 3sr jno/I SuTjq ppno.w a'eiTX '$OQ ^^BUI ppnco noj[ "qSTt.! ;;"C.« q r PTJB iiraop pc V �A: Some of them had the money ana some had chickens, eggs and butter and. stuff like that, you see. North You could- he could just turn that ever at Wilkesboro when he went after a wagon load of groceries. needed a lot of dry a tuff like that you know. If he There wasn't, very much money. There van a few, pretty well to do old farmers that had plenty of money. Took in a little money. Of course, little money then would be a whole lot of money now. Q: What size were the bjg farms around here? If you were going to categorize the farms, about what siae would be a big farm? A: Let's see. Well, somewhere - I don't know of any farms that you would call a farm much less than 60 acres to 230 to JOO. •were mighty scattered through, here back then. timber. These houses Plenty of land, plenty of And they finally got to using the timber, you know. hauling it to Shounels. 25 miles and a railroad run in there to Shounels, termessee, and over to Mountain City. got to getting better all the time. till they just got rich. Sawing it and And some got to sawmilling, and they And them fellows kept on sawmilling Two of my brothers, I guess they're worth about as much as anybody in the county, Mike and Glenn. They started out saw- milling and kept on till they got to bringing a lot of money and then they put them in a flooring plant. West Jefferson. Oak floring plant, make flooring here at And they made a lot of money, clear money there at that. Finally sold that out. Q: what was sawmilling like back then? They didn't hsve electricity tc A: No, steam boilsrs and sawmills - the mill part was a lot like a - the power was steam boilefr fired by wood you know. using gas motors. Then they got to That's about what they use now for saw milling; a gas m.ctcj �Q: Was sawrnilling a pretty hard business? Was it, harde>" t h a n farming .in this area? A: Pretty hard job that savmifling. Pretty hard, work, Q: Wore there any times, back whan you were growing up that -- ..Like then- was bad growing season and the farmer..,. A: They wag a f^w kind of droughts, you know, wet seasons, but they didrd make as much as some seasons as others. Good and bad, sort of like it is now. Q: Were there times when you were really digging deep and ui.gel aa as your t>sft for lack of food? A: No, they might nearly had enough bo live or; the year round, of course, people now days, children, they wouldn't know what to think if you set them down to buckwheat cakes and white gravy for breakf a si/, would they? Molasses and. berries, stuff like that. Q: 'I've eaten it many a time, A: Hove you? 0• \ai. v,-.- --, -. >- i.,-,^i. A: Such s...-, that is w;'iai we had back then. bread, corn bread. Mrs.A.: You're Rye bread, little wheat Two or three kinds of bread we had back then. going to make it sound piti.ful. A: flnh? Q: Sounds good, Mre.A: You:1 re going to make it sound pitiful if you don't hush. A: No, at wa0 pretty good times then. Didn't have to buy much, Q: Did your mother have a wood stove back: then? A: ieah, she had a wood stove. Q: Hid she ever have to cock in the fire place any? �Pase 1C A: Well, we had a fireplace. She'd cook beans on the fire. Had a big skillet, and she'd bake , a cake of corn bread, and if she cd.dn't want to fire up the stove and, the skillet on the hearth, you know. Guess you've seen that, haven't you, or have you? Q: Yeah. A: My, we got a daughter down here West Jefferson. They've got a den there and she got her big skillet and she still - in winter time, when she's got ,-• fire in the aen fireplace, she'll bake her a big cai<e of corn breao. and set her sweet milk out a little while before if there's ice and cold and much ice. Mrs.A: A: money. Take it out of the refrigerator. Boy, she likes sorriotning like that. And tney're worth a lot of They just like that. Q: "What sort of things did your mother bake? Do you remember? A: Biscuits, corn bread, pancakes, rye bread, spple pies, cakes, stuff like that. Q: Did she like tha wood stove better than - I don't guess she ever did have an electric 31.eve? A: No, there wasn't no electric stoves back then. Q: Did she like cooking on the wood stove better than en the,... A: Fireplace? Yeah, they thought they'a up in the upper ten if they had a cook stove. They didn't all have cookstoves. But they finally kept on getting them in until they - got them a second hsnd one maybe. And when '.idle to buy them a new one, they'd buy an old stove. Q: Didn't have refrigerators back then, did you? A: No, we had a spring trough. Q: Like that one in yonder? A: Like one in yonder. spring, wsliea up of rocks. Not exactly like that one. We'd just have a I/fall ourselves a spring trough, ana fix that where it would go right on down to trie spring in there. Floor was up nere �en i'"'.?. JT'.r,. ' l • ': .'j'••'••> ' r ' TODr'C ' 0. •"•'"HI • i ^.r""-3 "' o3 ~ ' : i"-'i ';', q r yjo';. *j;'irio/' 't.s;q' :;&« s.n u;iqw oq. o3 oq nscn af. •q r,;5A'Bq I 'OK i,;-00j, Ao J-.J.A.O ;fci30 suoog oy PBOJ sryq. aesc; JMAS no/ SAHI, — ;:r>-Bg_ o']. r ;«oS 4.BUCJ. p^oj ^ua uo ^OT?g •a^Tioi^Toot.pR /.jqanoo F- ur '^ T^PI^a i ["ooqo!; oq o§ TIG./' prp o.ia'm "IT r f n a '>|3feM t UT ;3J'9n -q_T qorun q.,ur.-[-n.oM j p"[QD ;; GM qj 'jjnq_y pus :<5 -aaoog :V :5 �co m o -p a .o -\H '-—. Q, P-, •H C «-l -P o< c? C31 C3> �A: Oil, we had. a big time at them. have edeggi-r dialogee, all too; Black our facee Ilk- -I gg': r e , and kindo of things ...... they ' a cone fron far ana > ear they r a j'Lu>t nil that hor.ee th-y-.ro eeactiy ehee. we- ha'! our red, e Heel, er Q: What «ero eomo of the game;-- you played? A: Well, tad d play,, at jehool, w o ! d play jail, bane - haee-baj.i, ctnf.r' .Li »:•.:> t h a t . •-•-• ••oiui ; .S , you l::iow. tag, ti \\Ufi Just s5.n-3« aro'^i'id the i.'0;.a;s: thai, wa.;_; ono .you ci;;--,, iod Dron tho ha.aK.ei'ohi;:l' btT.:'i.nd oorrkvbody and then pull o'j.t •'•nd ;v;o:.i had to beat then tu get yoar place back vhore yen ;;;ta:r:i>x. .,;.•;!•? way We : \ a> <;•'.; th.. t ,r\ieht spiavt. Q: :f c:ah , wo a:e:e; tu play that at achcol. A: N", th.ey \va,e:d I ev,vr any -larieee back bhet- ai;, I rea7ie;nber. Mra.i.A: Were there ever ;-e;y Th*-y jc-j''j I:. ad d,i ri'ereat parties an^.i .110 dancing. A: Q: What did. you. do whea you were- courting? A: Oe, we w o n t . . . . Mi-,s.A: A: 'whena/ did yen ge oe late;: T h a t ' d bo '-, long story. W- d i d n ' t halve no h o r a e a.nd buggy bhen much. Tn<- r oonu eg .;..V:n ha: a. noiee:- end. buggy, ana they' ; takt; tneii- gird oat ofr a ridf'.-. W e ' d t k.3et, a creed o," ee ;i'.iet get together, you e v a:.iv, g...:t a r o u n d , go p.Lecee. maydi':, up on M o u a t a i a ; p].:;,,.:r te look o f t . bee;; thoro havoeH you? thinik net-hing -jbout it Wore!- than Bloving Rod', Abo;,t chree ridlo valk. Walk:i:j| Yeu' • W o ' d .d.;.oe w a l k ta-.-r: 3ed - big crowd get together - eix or seven of u.e, you Q: Die you eaye pierei.ee? A: Pi.crd.ee, yeah, Q.: Were there ;•, l o t of aerieiuei ty a c i d viii t .:; b;,.;k. ei-e? bao picnice, had a oi g t-imi^ at th;.K. �Pasx 1: A: ik j ah, they had big revival aeeting:; 1 • the c h u f c h . and held LL about a week, sometimes Uvo weeks. going to meetings. About one a year Had " pretty &.i;:' ii;;ie W e ' d court a right much then, gel eg back and f o r t h to Church. Q: Hov; often did you hav> your regular sivoday oervicco? Or we.r'f: the services every sunday? A: No. Evecj thiru sunday, I think uar time COKO. about four I'diurche;;}. The pr-yn^h^i 1 .had About i.;very third -unday h(.;'d get a r c v u n n ',o • : • . . Had ;.;un.T:.y cchool every auruiay. Mrs.A: A: Preachers had to come from Wf-ad:, Jrl'foraoii. Y'_ : ah. Some of bhem walked dow;i .from t o w n up here. and bag^iHO. Q: A: Lt don't uardly Bound like it Some had horde,;:. could be true, doe.-; it? What type o p preacher,;; ^ere they? Some; oi' tiit:;T!.i pretty good ane. uorric of them 1 i v o u l d n ' t w a l k fron: h(-•!.'e iji.; 'til-'; ytor;-- 1 « Q: Whet type of churchee v/ere in thir; a r e a ? A: Mothod:] ;.;t,, Baptitrt j/jn^t]y. hei'f: .'.'Ijf.vut Mr's.A: A: Thero was a Holineo;.; ehiiref, back r ver : rti.lle, righi, bhi;; f j i d n o.l"' that KChoolhoabe I v/at t e J J . i r i g al.'./i.rh. Then '.heec- a a e n ' t a.oy Holineee a.roar.d h e r e . . , . Not Mien. P r e s b y t e r i j i i , Presbyterian back the;;. Keet'ly Baptist and Metj:od;.d. back t h e n . KIT;.A: have you been ovor through Mill Creek? Q: N o t yet. A: No, it Did th<r railroad affect the farmero around here pretty iiiuch IK j.ped oi.it a rigat n i u a r t . croet? ties right ii; here, bwo or th.ree miles. and all. nioet anywhere. They - see they could haul the They haa a ,.witch, riiayht:,, uvery They could switch off a car, It helped out. load a car with croesties Extract, tan b a r k , it was a right smart :;oo:a back whea the; rallroa.,.! corne through here. Helped t h e fanners out. Everybod �Page 15 merchants and everything. People began to sort of get on their feet and make a, little jnoney then5 Q: Did it come down this way any way? I know it come through Boone, but.,,, A; Yeah, this one come right through here. Abington to West Jefferson. It come from West Jefferson, That^'s the old railroad grade right over there. From the intersection there, well, down here it leaves Walter Baldwinvs this side of Walterl's, it leaves the railroad. And part of the way, it's an the old railroad grade and up the river from Fleetwood to Todd. You never been up there have you? Q: Not yet, A: That road, all the way from Fleetwood down here to Todd's on the old railroad grade. the old depot. Elkland, they called it Elkland back then. They dug it out. Of course they could haul it to town instead, They got trucks and pretty good roads. took it out, you know. Depot's there yet, It didn't affect them bad when they Six miles, five or six from here to West Jefferson. And they could take it up from there to Abij/igton? I don*t if they will or not. It ..run from Boone now to, let!ls see, it ran from Boone to Elizabethton, didn't it? I rode on that road. Oi Up around through Linville, A; iVe come around there on the train from Boone, out in there around Shell Creek, Elizabethton. I used to barber in Elizabethton. I could get to Boone very good, but you had to catch a ride from there down here. There wasn't near as many cars running as there is nowadays, you know, Q: Do you remember when you saw you first automobile? A.' Yeah, I remember when I seen the first one ever delivered around Boone, A lawyer lived, Tom Bowie, West Jefferson, He drove it up there and boy it looked like he's liable to run over everybody in the road. That's the �Page 16 first one I had was a T model ford. We kept one of them a right smart little bit. 0: Were there any gas stations around here then? A: Well, not close. About, West Jefferson is about the closest one for a:long time, Mrs.A A lot of difference with that store a being over there, and things settled around here and there's nobody but us, one house up above us. A' Now my daddy owned from up here, about half way to the intersection, not quite half way, you know where the intersection is at Buvall-'s. My daddy and his brother owned from down here,, about cross this ridge here. He owned land from down there up to John and Duvall's, mountain to the top of this. The top of that And made a right smart of land, you know. I've tried to count up hov many families lived on the two farms of my daddy and Uncle..,. By the way, he jugt had one boy. got two hundred and fifty acres, He had two girls and he hoped they wouldn't sell any as long as they lived. And they've got it yet. Baldwin. He died My first cousin did. 'My uncle died back several years ago and my aunts, and that left it to him. you know. I guess he He kept that land and said he wasn't never going to sell any, long as he lived. about two or three years ago, He kept that land. He Inherited it I worked a lot for him, painting - building houses. And died at Well, they just about owned all of Baldwin, what you'd call Baldwin. Just two brothers. Then it was cut up and divided up with their children. My daddy gave me a batch of land over here to build on, my other brother back up here, my sister back up toward Baldwin, Just scattered around. They's houses3 there's no telling, I guess there's fifteen houses now where there's one then, That's the way time changes, in the next seventy five years? Reckon therelll be that much change �Page 17 Q; I don't know. It can't change - if it changes that much people aren't going to have much, more than the land the house is on. How did the people have to change their way of life during the depression? A: Well, they had to go, most of them had soap houses, you know, and they'd depend on that you know. The soap house, we never did - here in the country, it was as bad as it was away in these big towns, you know. We depended on the farm, you know, Mrs,A3 We had our own milk? had our own cheese3 eggs and all. Mad our own meat, A: Like I feay3 1 was a painting, And about me and another or two was the only painters there was in the county, and fellows that had a little money, why they could hire to have it done, you know, the depression, It just happened so. I had it pretty good back in If I hadn't been a painter, I'd of had a heck of a time, Q; What were the wages an hour? A; About a dollar and a half an hour were good wages for back then. I said a dollar and a half an hour - dollar and a half a day, Mrs,A; I thought you's wrong. A: Yeah, we've not been a getting two or three dollars an hour here but just a few years for painting, you know. They thought that was pretty good. Of course, our boy makes more than that. He contracts, works about half a dozen men, you know. Runs everything, Q; Were there any government programs around here during the depression? A: Let's see, I reckon the NYA work here. Q: I've heard of the WA. A', WPA and NYA. Know anything about that? I was the foreman of the NYA. weeks,, about twenty the next two weeks. About twenty boys for two It give them half time. And give about twenty two weeks and then they'd lay off, and let the other twenty come on. �Page 18 About forty, I think, Keeping time. It was pretty good back then. Better than when you don*t mind mucli in the country such as that, $50 a month for my job. 1 just drawed I thought I was flying then. Mrs.As We was married millionaires. Q; What did these work projects do? As Remodel school houses around where they needed some remodeling, set out trees one day and another. Dig wells. tables or something Itke that, you know, inside in the winter time. Make, in bad weather, weM make Get in the dry, you know, working Let them make stuff like that, you know. Now there was one of these boys there in the NYA work,, he was starting out just they'd take them up to eighteen years old - but wasn't eighteen. was about sixteen. And one of the boys now is the biggest contractor in Ashe County, was under me when he was working working with me on the NYA,. what he was doing. the others. I guess he under me back when he was James Vannoy , he was a good one though. He knew I could ask him to come if I wasnvt there looking after He was a big man there. My boy over there said he had $20,000 worth of work contracted, painting now for the contractor James 'Vannoy. But the government, I believe he said he asked the other day, told me had $40,000 worth of painting contracted right now. That's different from back when we''re talking about old times, i§n'>t it? Qj What was the biggest job that you ever contracted? A; A girl's dormitory at Boone, painted that, contracted. I. contracted that. You know, old gir!T's dormitory. I That *'s about as big a one as I ever I worked there a long time painting in Boone, at the Paint there in the summer time when they's going and coming. college. We'd just have to stop painting when they*s changing classes, you know, going through the halls. Waited until they got settled down before we could go to work, to work at Boone. I like We was working at Boone when they built this road round �Page 19 to Deep Gap( you knov\m there to B,oone., you know/s 42.1, You know^ where that^s at? out here at -Deep Gap, don'-t you? WeM go this- road all the, time, It seems to me lifce. it would be farther around this wayf hut it ^s twenty one mile through by Todd, and nineteen around here by Deep Gap. Of course, Boone is in this way a heap more south than you would think about, But when we'd get done painting, we come this other road. They didn'vt have it finished up yet, h.ard surfaced, hut they had the gravel on it - packing it down. Q; Boy, I thought th,at was a good road, You mentioned earlier about people having to gather roots and all. Did they gather more during the depression? A" Yeah, I guess there was more gathered roots and herbs hack then than they have at times, Well, they couldn't get money much for that. But they'd take them to the store, buy them something to eat it, you know. The merchants would buy that. Then they ship it, you know, in big., big- Mrs. A: His hohbyfs trapping. 0.; Really? A: Yeah> I like to trap, Caught me four minks back up here in ^ I''s telling you about my cousin's place up here. just last winter. Brought me forty five dollars on them, muskrats, got them down by the river. mighty trapping. I got three minks up there Forty five Three coons and a possum. That's I just like to have something for a hobby, you know. Q; Did they trap a lot back when you were growing up? A' No, Mrs.A; Just mice and rats is all, As Now a mugkrat h^de. would bring about fifteen cents back then. 'not much.. Muskrats. Now they br^ng, let'^s see, T got two and a half Idollars] last winter for mine and some, of BailV, Lot of difference there in the price of stuff like that. �Page 20 Qs Was there much moons-hjnitig going on during this., in this area during the depression? As NPJ they- wasn*vt to© much; thro-ugh, here., 'Mrs,A;' Wasn'-'t any- right through; here. As Right through; ftere, Over in Wtlkes, they're a lot over ±n Wilkes than was over here in Ashe County, Now and then they''d catch, a fellow out about Idlewild or somewhere trying to make him a little bit. Hade a heap of it in pots then, you know. Just make, fix them a pot, cap on that. Put the stuff in there and fix it. They could make some pretty good liquor in pots, big old wash pots, you know, Q! When you were growing up; for recreation, besides the parties and all, in the winter time, did you have sledding parties? A: fun. that. Yeah, we'd ride on the sleds? rabbit hunt. That's about our biggest We'd get outside. A crcowd of boys rabbit hunting or something like Have parties and stuff like that. Q: Ever make snow cream? As Yeah, we made, snow cream. Used to make homemade ice cream. I ordered me a freezer and <- I used to barber a little here and on. About the only one around here that could cut hair. And I'd make a run of ice cream Saturday and they'd gather in here, the children. their hair cut. ice cream. Buy., that and get I'd make a little money both ways, barbering and trading on Worked in Elizabethton, 0; Was there electricity in this area when you were barbering? A: No? we. just had to use these kind you work with your hands. Q; When did electricity first come in? ]*rs,'A3 I can hardly remember ^ it xas cherry time. At' I don^t remember what year it was in, We come back, they had lights in and gone, wtten we got here. �Page 21 Os Was- it after the depression or before? A;' After. Q,j Before world war IX? AT T guess it vaa before world was II. I don^t remember just when they did come around putting lights around and phones, Lights been here longer than the telephone has really.-. Q; What was your first electrical appliance that you bought? A; Let?'s see, I guess a radio and a refrigerator, stuff like that. Electric heater, hot plates, one thing or another Ifjte that, Ch What were some of the radio programs that you listened to? A; We like to watch,, what is his name? Nrs. A', Barker. A; Bob Barker, we like to watch him. Bob... How about Paw and Ma Kettle was on? Dillon, we like to watch him. Did you get that a while back? I always like that. Q; ';At the fair17? Channel 3? A; Yeah, and Bunkers> you watch them? Q; What do you think of Archie Bunker? A; He's hard boiled, ain't he? like tb watch the wrestling. TheyT're pre,tty good. We hardly ever miss old Archie. I I don't get too much from football games. Mrs.As He likes wrestling, I don't. A; You ever watch wrestling? 0; What's you philosophy of life? A; No, I don!lt hava one, Q; What dp As Oh,, I - people goingf looking ahead instead of back, Do you have one? you think insures a long life? Lot''s of exercise, Eat plentyP drink a sight of water. Some future. Not smoke too much. �Page 22 It HI kill you if you don^t watch- out,. Now I:Ve smoked about thirty years,, I guess:, Q! Hadn'M: killed you yet, A3 I don'-'t inhale it. before now, I guess if IM Iteen inhaling it, itM killed me I like a lot of walking, stirring around. -My age, now there*'s not many men at my age T eighty three years old - will be the 29th of this month and that's right here. can do a whole of ditching and Not many men that do hardly anything. beating rock and light work like that. put two ditches in my garden yesterday. I I Went through it? got wet and had to cut two. Q; Do you remember the flood of '40? A; Yeah, boy, good. Q; How was it in this area? A; Well, hit pretty dad. other bridges. Was this area hit pretty bad? It washed out a lot of railroad bridges and Got up down there, just below that pot down there in the yard, And this times it got just to the pot there about. That's worse than the '40 flood. 1:00 O'clock when we got up. This last one, you know? It come nearly to the porch that night, Wife happened to get up and look out there. Well ., the creek's up too, and I didn't think much about it being up past those little pines down there. them, pines or right around, it. I got up and looked, and it was way up on I couldfve- jumped off the porch in the edge of There's water from here to that station, that sounded just like a river, Nearly went the basement over yonder. there. It scared me kinda nice. up to Greer's", know where, years. That, nearly seeped in that door I said, vGet your things on. We're going TBey live up a little higher land than we''s on. it % going. I didn't For i;t to be higher than iM^ver seen it in sixty It washed a let of land away back then. Lot of houses. �Page 23 Mrs,A3 Wasted people, a.ways A; It w,ash>d a store, of fter^ away from Todd, is? Tltey- Had a store up th:e,ret went down. YOU knoy wh;ere Todd And it wash;ed it way - store, goods and all And juat a'b'ove. you know, that other creek runs up from the Mrs.A; Now that was HO, A- HO? river. It was HO, railroad down here to Todd. QJ '-& ^ that was back when they'-s building that •! '^16 - I Believe when it was built, Do you remember any Bad men around here. Were there any sheriffs or outlaws? A; Ho there wasn''t very many through here as I can remember. Do you? [to his wife]. around. I guess take it on the whole, there *'s Better folk in and There wasn't many of them, of course. There*s so many more now that, there's more robbing and, everything like that now-a-days than there was them, Of course there's twenty people to one then anyway. Can't hardly judge it that way. But there's hardly ever a bank robbed and. things like that back then. 0; Were there a lot of people that were hurt around here, when the. banks closed during the depression? A: Oh, not very much I reckon. in the banks I guess. There wasn't too many that had money People that did have it, kept it hid under a bed tick in the stall, a sock or stocking or something. Mrs.A! Maybe you''11 give him an idea where we keep oups. A? do, No, I keep mine in the Northwestern Bank, what little checking I A little in Ashe Savings and Loan, just to drav interest, Thats some of th.e easiest money a man ever made, If 1 had a whole lot of money they-M loan out, and the,, interest counts up, Q: Can you th±nlt of anything else to add about the old days? A: I don't reckon so, Q: We certainly appreciate this. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Edwards, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource James Edwards was born in Bladwin, North Carolina in 1890 where he grew up on a farm. His occupations included painting and carpentry. Mr. Edwards built his own house in 1912 in West Jefferson. Mr. Edwards spends a large portion of the interview talking about growing up on the farm. He also talks about cooking and producing food such as molasses and drying fruits. Mr. Edwards also talks briefly about his mother's cooking and recalls some memories from holidays as a child such as Easter and Christmas. He recollects childhood memories of courting, school, church, the Great Depression, and fun activities children did at his age. He also briefly mentions helping with work projects during the Great Depression. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNeely, Mike Edwards, James Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 23 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape83_JamesEdwards_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. West Jefferson, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Baldwin (Township)--20th century Baldwin (N.C. : Township)--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--Ashe County--20th century Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Ashe County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 1940 flood Baldwin church farming government programs holidays James Edwards James Vannoy maple syrup National Youth Administration North Carolina railroad sawmills schoolhouse trapping Work Projects Association https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b82b7c50d44c31b219ccc5f34376f72c.pdf 2ae609794a1902a7d0c69e515a224fb7 PDF Text Text AOHP This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. San Jones on the Castle Ford Road on June 12, 1973. The interview is with Mike HcNeely. Question: Mr. Jones, would you tell me something about the farm you were born on? Answer: It was sixty-five acres, X think. I've cleared it here the last few years, all ray life nearly. There's about as much land as you can see. Done everything that can be done to get it to work. Qt How many were there in your family? A: Nine. Q: How many brothers and sisters? A: Five girls and four boys. Q: Your dad had a lot of help on that farm, didn't he? A: Yeah, when we got up big enough. Oh we just growed corn, potatoes, mostly theni"—-beans, and peas anything like they do now. little stuff like that. Didn't grow Pumpkins, just grow all the pumpkins and string it and string it up and put it on posts and dry it. Q: Did you have any livestock? A: Yeah, we had hogs, cow or two and hog or two. Chickens, geese, guineas. Q: Were the cows and chickens used for meat, or were they used for milk and eggs? A: No, just milk and eggs mostly. Q: How about your hogs? Did you let them run free or did you keep them in pens? A: No, we had a big lot back then. That's about a acre a lot for *.-• them to run in. Q: I was reading somewhere that some of the farmers let their hogs run wild. A: My dad used to have forty—-one year had forty head. Cholera got �2. amongst them, they was out in the mountains. six. That cholera111 kill them right now. All died but five or I've never seen but one-- I remember seeing them bring one old big hog in. that far, I guess, out of his mouth. His tusks was stuck We had to cover that fellow, you stick your finger, he'd make a dive at you, just like a snake a-grabbing.at you. mouth and all. He'd eat you up. Ah, they had him tied all over, I don't know how in the world they ever, caught him. I was just a little bitty fellow then, but I can remember it. That's been sixty year ago or more. Q: How often did they have a kill? A: Every fall. They'd go out and shoot them down, with old war rifles, anywhere they could find them. Q: How was the meat back then? Was it as good as it is today? A: Well, I don't believe there was as any a fat hog, unless they got fat on mash, they used to get awful fat on mash, Chestnuts and acorns, Lord, there used to be worlds of them. I picked one day, part of a day after a big snow, about ninety pounds of chestnuts. Early fall and they'd been dry, you know, and they wouldn't open up, well they'd open, but they couldn't pull out. bring them out. They'd take damp, you know, to They come a snow, four or five inches, and I was on Buffalo, and it went off a little while and boy, I mean to you, trees, there was two or three growed up in one bunch there. bushel or more under that. I got a half Boy I got all I could carry and I never got started on them. Mrs. J.: Me and my sister used to pick them up, had four or five ^ trees out in the field. went to school. We'd pick them up in the morning before we Sometimes we'd get three bushels. Dad always took produce down around Salisbury and down in there, he'd take them down there and sell them for us. �3. Q: Did you all use them around the house any? A: Mrs. J. (Chestnuts, oh we'd eat all we wanted and sold bushels of them. Mr. J. I used to climb trees to shake them out. Mrs. J. We never did shake them out. We'd just pick them up as we went to school of the morning,when they started falling. Q: Was there a lot of fruit around here--berries? A: Mrs J. Yeah, there used to be all kinds of berries, and apples, and cherries. Mr. J. Anymore you don't get many a meal, once in a while. .. . Now you couldn't get a cherry ham shuck for years around here. Mrs. J. Cherry trees just about all died. And blackberries seem they blight anymore, you can't get none of them. Mr. J. Hadn't picked a blackberry in four or five year, I don't reckon. Mrs.J. Sometimes you can get some wild strawberries if they don't freeze. Lot of time there comes a freeze about the time they're blooming. Don't get to bloom anymore. Q: How about huckleberries? At Mrs. J. Are there any around here? Ah, none to amount to anything, they used to be a good many, back in the mountains, you know. Mr. J. We got, was it ninety-six quarts or something---over a hundred one year? Mrs. J. About ninetyfseven^quarts, but the field that had so many in it's been cleaned off, bulldozed out. Mr. J. Timber them out, killed too lots pine and everything. We found a bush one time, I don't know, I wasn't with them. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Had I went that day or not? Yeah, you was off in the field here picking. And one of my girls found it first, then one of my boys, and she pickftd a gallon bucket! full and he finished his off on one bush. �4. The biggest huckleberries it after that. I always there, you know. Q: I ever seen. I never did see that many on it up when I went over in I think it's dead now, it's been destroyed. How did they used to put up their fruits back in your mother's day? A: Mrs. J. Most the time they just canned them, cooked them and put them in cans, sealed them. Mr. J. Now they made a lot of dried sweets too. Mrs. J. Of course apples, they dried a lot of apples, had dried apples and they'd dry pumpkins and way on back before I ever remember, I was told, my mother told me how they used to dry their blackberries. They dried them. They dried their peanuts, string beans, and they had what they called leather britches. Mr. J. They are good. They'd just seal and dry them and put meat to them, they are good. Q: How much of the crop that was on the farm was sold as produce and how much of it did you use? A: Mr. J. We never sold---growed anything back then when I was a boy. Mrs. J. Since we when,we lived out there, a lot of time,we growed beans. Mr* J. We might have sold a few taters Mrs. J. We growed tobacco to sell and grain, what corn we put out, we'd use it, have our own meal and so forth, take beans to market and tobacco. Mr. J. We used to make seventy-five and seventy-six gallon* of molas- ses here and never sold a one, we eat everyone of them. My dad, after we all left but my youngest brother and he would eat a snuff glass full every morning, you know, for breakfast. (chittling) molasses. That's a half a pint of �5, Q: Did you ever make maple syrup or maple sugar? A: Mr. J. I made a lot of maple sugar, I know how it's made .... Well there was three pots, I think, one was an awful big one. Just out in the woods, had an old pole, and a fork in the pole laid in*it and the lails across it. And we'd give out troughs, wooden troughs, take . peck buckets and go around and dip it out. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Tapped the sugar trees, sugar maples. My dad used a axe, cut a place right handy and hewed out a little old thin strips about that wide, stuck in there and drive it in there, you know, catch your water. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Makes a spout for the sap to run. Sometimes it's clean, sometimes it'd just drip calmly, some of it runs better than others. Mrs. J. Mr. J. That boiling it down though. I've boiled to twelve and one o'clock plenty of time. Get it down to pretty good syrup and bring it in home the next day or night and boil it down to sugar. best syrup I've ever eat. I Hike that syrup, boy it's the If I had a gallon I wouldn't take---wouldn't sell it for a ten dollar bill, it'd cost more than that if a man could get it. Dad made some for years, a little and sold it, they was all gone, I understand it. Q: Did they use the sugar instead of white sugar? A: Mr. J. No, sold it. Q: How much did it bring? & : Mr. J. I forget now. Only good time was forty cents, fifty cents a pound, thirty and forty, well the last he made he sold to a postmaster down there at old Jefferson, he got fifty or sixty cents or more down there. Mrs. J. Now a---white sugar was cheaper than the maple sugar, buy �6. the white, would save money. Mr. J. Now there's a man over there on Buffalo, that would be, he's a doctor, Sam was his name, Sao Perkins, and he tried to run it on yarn strings, you know, to a-.-he had a outlet, you know, little buildings where they bo He'd it down, you know, It wouldn't run off the hill, it'd just run a little, and just drip off, put out a lot of money that-a-way. Then he bought him a five-hundred or a thousand peck buckets and had him a big trough, it was down there, and had a hoXfe bored in there and they'd just carry it and pour it in that trough and it run on down there where they made it, you know, they'd catch it down there (in pots). his buckets. And somebody stole about every one of I know he had five-hundred or more, ten quart buckets, all along the row, somebody finally stole about everyone, if they didn't buckets. Lord, they made hundreds of gallons of syrup, they didn't make sugar, they just made syrup, you know, and sold it. Anybody with any sense a-tall would know that it wouldn't run on yarn strings. Q: How about sawmilling around here? A: Mr. J. That's pretty . . . . I used to sawmill before I come to this country, I ain't done so much since I come, well I've done some too. 1,'ve packed them and I've rolled logs, burnt, cut the timber, ball-bust. Mrs. J. I ain't dome none of that, but I've cut timber. Q: How did you get the trees off the mountain, down to the mill? A: Mr. J. Have a---easiest is by team. Of course, I worked where they had to ball boot them down, off of the in Avery County some too. River. . I've worked That timber'd run eight miles up the Pigeon But that brother seemed he was going broke so bad two of them one of them die"d just a while back. twenty-seven years. (Greg Scott) '.ti "rr-r.-rc r:r":—i,-:': there was I worked for him He sold out, bought them a truck, �7. went to hauling extract. Biggest extract plant that used to be down there at Canton in the world. used Don't know if it's there or not, but be there. Canton is eighteen miles, where our camp is there. Right on the Pigeon River. Q: Did the railroad help any with the sawmilling? A: Mr. J. Yes, it did. They hauled it in on trains, they got to the right place where you loaded it. Yes, they did. And I worked Creek where they hauled it all in for several miles. get it off the mountain and to get on the train cars. But you had to Averaged seventy-five thousand a day. Didn't matter what you taking in on it. That's more than they cut here in two or three months. band mill. That was I handled lumber there twenty-seven feet long, twenty- seven inches wide. Of course, I handled most of the dry lumber, loading cars. Old hemlock logs, splinters sticking out that far. Had to use hand leathers and a apron here. Hand leathers come in on the inside of your hands here. Boy, it'd just ruin you. Mrs. J. Ruin your hands if you got one of them hemlock splinters. Mr. J. They cut little old "lathes," about two to two.and-a.half inches wide and about four foot long, I think. And a eighth to a quarter of an inch thick, and they are the hardest, and they are the hardest things to bail. Boy, that's what they'd give a new man. They test them out on that. Now if he could stand that, he could stand anything. Q: Is this train that came down through Todd the same one that went through Boone and up to Linville? A: Mrs. J. No, this went back into Virginia. Mr. J. I don't know what they've stop that one from running to Ashe County, have they, Jefferson, I don't think. No they had an awful bunch out the other day. There was a string of coal here as �8. long as from here to that garage, just . So big. That's the way they get their coal in down there. They sell it cheaper than they do in Boone, cause they truck it in up there. Mrs. J. I don't know. That train run up here a lot. They hauled a lot of extract back then, stuff like that. Mr. J. Lord, I boarded down in West Jefferson one time a while. helped beat the first rock made them hardtops. I West Jefferson, Old Jefferson, over through there. Mrs.J. After they took this up, the train just run from Abingdon to West Jefferson. Mr. J. They used to come in, a heavy load, there'd be two engines to it, to a load. Why, it'd jar the whole town nearly. It'd just chug-a-chug-&. It would, about jar the town! Mrs. Jones adds something which is inaudible. 0: Did this train down here get washed out with the flood of '40? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. No, it wasn't here then. Taken up way back yonder. It was took up before that time. They discontinued it. See that grade over there is on that grade is on railroad grade there. Prom Todd to Pleetwood. it had a wide road. Best grade in the state, if It is, the longest stretch there in the state of North Carolina. Mrs. J. W«ll, it ain't wide enough for a highway. If it was wider, it'd be a good road. Mr. J. Well, it's just twelve foot down below Brownwood, Fleetwood. You can't hardly pass on it from there. ThereJs places you can't. And it's washed out, fell off like it is right over yonder all along the highway down through there. was a week ago, I reckon. dangerous. I went down there last Friday. I'm afraid to ride on that road much. It It's �9. Q: Was the train in here during the depression, or was it stopped before that too? A: Mr. J. I don't know how long it's been took up. It was way before you and me was married, wasn't it? Yeah, and we've been married for thirty-eight years. Why it's been forty some years, I guess. Q: What was life like around here during the depression? A: Mrs. J. It was pretty tough, and pretty scrimpy. You had to make do with what you had. Mr. J. Well, I lived on Three Top worst depression Mrs. J. back in Ashe. That there that was before we was married. . . . pulled leaves, gathered herbs--~anything to buy what was necessary. And the rest of it they just had to do with what they had. Q: What types of herbs and all did they gather? A: Mrs. J. Oh, they was different kinds. wood leaves, bark Tfi'ey gathered beech- , beechwood bark, and witchhazel was what they call it. And they peeled Shawneehaw, black- berry briar root . . . . Mr. J. Sassafras roots . . . . Mrs. J. Sassafras roots fras big roots. Shawneehaw I've had to gather many of those sassatake out to the mountain, and pull Shawneehaw. Mr. J. I've treked for a mile and a half, two mile, all I could tie up and carry. Don't get big, really. Mrs. J. Wild cherries, wild cherries. Mr. J. Used to pick a lot of Balm of Gilead buds, but they got so cheap now you can't make nothing. Q: How much do those herbs bring? About thirty cents a pound. �10. At Mrs. J. pound. Oh, some of them bring from a penny to three cents a No, Shawneehaw or the bark from Shawneehaw root sometimes up to eight, nine, ten cents. Witchhazel leaves usually runs two to three cents and the bark sometimes all the way from one to three. Mr. J. Beetwood leaves now bring as high as thirty-four cents or more. Of course, everything's so high, you can't buy nothing now. Sold a lot of them for thirty-three or -four cents a pound. Mrs. J. So funny. You could get a lot more for what little money you did get out of the store. Mr. J. Anyone got that price then, they'd got rich. I been a-buying flour over yonder at 221, used to, 1 guess for two, three, or four years at two dollars for Blue Ribbon. Mrs. J. A box of matches now cost you fifteen cents. them here around for a .nickel. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Used to get A big box of soda was a nickel. Now it's $2.65. A glass of snuff was a quarter. Plug of tobacco was---it run about a quarter---200 to a quarter. Q: How about your salt? A:- Mrs. J. like that. Salt run about eighty---about a cent a pound, something We'd go buy rice. Get rice for two or three cents a pound. Box of Quaker Oats cost you maybe twenty to twenty-five cents. Mr. J. I bought some side meat for five cents before I was married staying with my brother-in-law. Q: How much does it cost now? A: Mr. J. Five cents a pound. I looked down here at Jack's Grocery the other day, there's a piece about that thick and so big first meat, I don't know. Seventy-five cents! pound. Mrs. J. Meat's got ridiculous now. , looks like Seventy-five cents a �11. Q: Was there a scarcity of jobs during the Depression? A: Mxz.J, Mrs. J. Yeah, it got awful scarce. People that had anything to do, they just didn't have the money to pay to have it done. So they just had to do what they could do theirselves and let the rest go. Mr. J. I remember two first checks or payrolls any monthly checks I ever drawed was during the World War. I was just a boy, and wasn't grown. First one was $37.20 and the next one was $27.20. Q: What were you doing? A: Mr. J. sand. Doodling saw dust at a mill, cutting eight to ten thou- Had a help awhile. And I'd do that with a wheelbarrow by myself, cutting eight and ten thousand feet lumber. Now you talking about a job, and that sun coming in on you. Couldn't stand it now, I bet you. I think I got two dollars a day, I think. Q: Were there any government programs around here, in the Depression? Like WPA, CCC. A: Mrs. J. They had the WPA awhile. mainly on it. A lot of the men could work on There was just so many people that needed work, they couldn't work them all. But they did work some. Mr. J. Q: I never did work at it, myself. They were pretty hard days then, but do you remember any of the good times during the Depression? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Not too much. I expect that all the way around many fared about as good then as they do now. A lot of them fared just as good, if not better than they do now. We have to work awful hard now-a-days to get by. Back then you had to work hard to 'get by, so you get just as much pleasure out of it. Mr. J. I figure one girl's been a-working three years, in June, out �12. at I.R.C. And she's made—worked out more money than I bet I work out in twenty years, twenty-five. got more than I've seen of my own. one today. She's spent a fortune, she's still She's got a lot of bonds, got She's got money at the Building and Loan and at the bank, and paid for a car. Bought sewing machines, electric irons, and enough to fill that car full several times. Paid for a house, clothes, and everything. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Q: My iron. We got the iron and give it to her. That's right, you did. But she got i1^ though. What were the first electrical appliances you got? A good one. Do you remem- ber? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Yeah, no-no, it was an old refrigerator. Refrigerator, and next was the washing machine. That's it down yonder. Kelvinator--that fellow called it Kelvinator. Q: Yeah, that's what my grandmother called it. A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. Did you get a radio? Yeah, we've got one. We've got several. Got two now, one's shot and the other won't play at all, unless you cut it off---I no more. Transistor radio's what I use now. Q: What were some of the programs you listened to? A: Mr. J. Q: Yeah, some of the first ones. A: Mr. J. On the radio? Oh,"Amos and Andy." Mrs. J. "Grand Ole Opry," "Amos and Andy." Then sometimes on Sunday, we'd get singing and preaching. Q: Where did y'all go to church? A: Mr. J. Up here at the top of the mountain, now. up there on Three Top, we went to Kraut. When we lived �13. Q: Was the church a pretty important part of your life when you were growing up? A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. Yeah, it was. Had to walk two or three mile off the mountain. three-quarter of a mile nearly straight down. them. Paid no attention to it then. Mrs. J. else. Well, there's Big, deep snows on That's the God's truth. People used to really go to church better then than anytime They got cars and they'll take off somewhere else, you know-- not stay at home. Mr. J. Mrs. J. I walked sixteen to eighteen miles many times before . . . . They used to---Sunday mornings would come, you'd have to get up and work-—do what you have to do, and then get ready to go to church, walk, and come back home. Mr. J. Fix you something to eat. We'd used to ride the horses back or go in a wagon when I was lust a boy. know, walking. I'd see old men coming when with the canes, you And buggies, yeah, a lot of buggies. I'd go, "What in the world is the matter with that man, has to have a cane." Blame, I've had to use one or two times, some crutches. I've had to use crutches. Q: How often did y'all have services? A: Mrs. J. We usually have services once a month, a preaching service, Sunday School every Sunday. Q: How about revivals? A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. Usually had one revival a year. Now it's two. And this man that runs the church, he has to get somebody to do the preaching, so we can have two to pay now. much money. Too Some type of helper, I don't care how--the pastor up here weighs 274 pounds. And he can preach, preach up a storm. And he has to get somebody else to do the preaching when we have a revival. �14. He's a big man. Q: Who is he? A: Mr. J. Mr s. J. Herbert Goodman. Goodman. Q: How did that church get it* A: Mrs. J. Mr. J. name? Do you know? No, I don't. No, I don't know. I've been in this country thirty-seven years in March, I reckon. Mrs. J. That church has been established a long time. I don't know how it got its. name. Mr. J. Yes, that's been established maybe ninety years, I guess. Well, they've had it a long time. Q: I guess Mr. Grogan up yonder would know. A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. He'd know a whole lot about it. He might come near to telling you how long it's been/ He's been a member up there for years. conversation about his brother.) month. (Tape goes into He's got a birthday right next He's eighty-seven or eighty-eight year old. I'll have to look it up one of these days, in the Bible. Bibles--tore all to pieces. Now I mean ole-timey Bible like that now, oh, a i n ' t a-telling what it would bring, would it. Mrs. J. Yeah, those people out at the flea market offered $75.00, didn't they? Mr. J. tore. out. There's plenty of if it hadn't been Two of my oldest brothers got in to it when the rest were And they tore it all to pieces. that big. END OP SIDE 1 Oh, the back on it was nearly �15. A: Mr. J. That's nine years, I guess. Got gone in ' 2 And 6. I had to send off—my name wasn't in it. brother had it Virginia. Someone else had it. My Had to write on it there, and he sent that pages that had his on it. I' took it. Don't know how I'd ever got it that day. Q: Were there a lot of doctors in this area? A: Mr. J. Q: What did y'all do when you couldn't get a doctor? A: Mrs. J. No. Well, if you couldn't get one, you had to do the best I could. Mr. J. Mrs. J. There's one that lived up here for years. There's one that lived right up the river here, and there's one at'Boone that would go out on calls. Mr. J. He's dead now. a good country doctor. to. One over on Creston---Three Top. He was He always went out, "hoss" back, or used Finally got one at Todd. Mrs. J. Well, if you really had to have one, if you fine them at home, well he'd go up the river here. Mr. J, People died then of appendicitis, and they just called it indigestion or something; colic or something. Yeah, it killed a many a one, and they didn't know what was the matter with them. Mrs. J. Well, people used to---they wasn't no doctors around handy, and they just had to doctor the best way they thought. they got better, it's all right. If If they died, it had to be all right, because it's all they had. Mr. J. They weren't experimenting like they are now. live twenty-one days with double pneumonia. Had a brother Sight a man ever been in that country. Q: What were some of the home remedies that your mother used? �16. A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Used boneset or my mother did, and catnip . . . . Ole penny royal-— for colds or anything like that, they'd make a tea out of penny royal. And lots of times whenever a baby was cross, wouldn't sleep, they'd take a catnip block, and make a tea, and give it to the baby. And they used camphor for other things. Colds and colic or anything like that. camphor in water . Mr. J. Give them a few drops of .» . We used to take two or three drops of camphor in a bowl of milk, and give it to a baby and it'll ease him right now; or else it used to for colic. Mrs. J. And for people who had chest colds or fevers, well, they'd make a poultice from, ah, roast onions and mix sulphur or something with them, and make a poultice and place it on their chest to break up the fever. Ah, there's so many of them there old remedies. I couldn't think of all they were. Q: What was sassafras tea used for? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Yeah, people used to drink a lot of that. Yeah, they used to drink that in the spring of the year for a tonic. Mr. J. Yeah, those winters. Mrs. J. Yeah, and sometimes they'd drink it instead of drinking coffee. They'd make a tea out of it and drink it instead of coffee. Mr. J. It's cheaper now than coffee. Mrs. J. Ten ounces for a $1.75. Back during the Depression, why, coffee was so high and we's so low on money, we had to parch rye around here and make coffee out of it. Q: Mr. Jones, you said your wife knew some of these old farm super- stitions. A: Mr. J. Could you two give me some of them? I don't know. I know I'd never like to plant nothing �17. when the moon points was up. I don't know if there's anything in it or not, but I never did likfe to. I put out some onions one time when the points were up, and I couldn't keep them in the ground. Mrs. J. Superstition is a pair of cedar trees. Little, ole cedar. If you plant it, by the time it gets up big enough to shade a grave, why you'll die. Mr. J. All kinds of stuff like that. Why you can plant it, and my mother argued argued there was-~ something in it. You planted corn or beans, put the heart down and it won't hardly freeze. And I tell you what. You just go right there and drop corn and beans and see if they ain't worlds of it— lots of it ain't even hurt at all, and the other just cooked. Mrs. J. Mr. J. I've seen some that-a-way, but I don't know . . . . My mother tried if she could. she tried to plant a little on Good Friday She always planted with the eye down, so she could have some early beans. something in that. I tell you one thing, I believe there's You can plant a whole row through there, and there*d come a big frost there, and it'll kill some dead and won't hurt some. Mrs. J. Used to plant you one to make you a few potatoes. Plant them about when the sun was in the moon, in the dark of the moon. I heard once about, something about, there was a family asking when was a good time to plant potatoes. moon." Told them 'bn the dark of the So they thought that was getting out in the night time and planting, using lanterns. Mr. J. You know there's a lot of people won't cut wood only at certain times. They won't walk after it. Yeah, they won't, at certain times, cut their wood. Q: I was talking to a fellow the other day, yesterday, and he �18. said that he'd be putting the boards on the barn. And if you put them on when either the moon was growing or was full, it would bow them out. If the moon was shrinking, it would set them in there tight. A: Mrs. J. Well, I know there are times that you can put boards on a barn, and them dirty things will just cup up. Mr. J. Mrs. J. The moon points it up when it does that, I know. And I have seen them on buildings that way where they|ve just turned up. Mr. J. Ixwas madder—I couldn't even see hardly. Those wouldn't set in there at all. Q: Isn't there one about planting corn? I think, if it's if the moon's full, you plant your corn, it'll grow higher. A: Mr.J. Mrs. J. No, it'll grow higher, I think, on the new moon. I think that when the moon's new, if you plant your corn, why it'll grow taller. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Yeah, some people plant in the moon. Yeah, I always planted in the ground. attention to it much. it. I never did payono Wanted to plant something I always planted Old-^people used---they used to have certain signs when they planted everything. You can get these here gardening books and they still go by the signs in planting root crops, planting you know, stuff that grows above ground. attention to it. I never did pay much I just went and planted when I got ready to. Q: What did they use for fertilizer back yonder? A: Mrs. J. Well their the only fertilizer they used back then was just the litter from the barn and stables, because they didn't buy it, they didn't have it. factured it Well, back there I reckon they manu- nowhere around here, where they could get it. But they �19. used the litter from the barns, and in their big fields where they put their corn or something like that, why they didn't use anything. Most of the time, they just cleaned out new land. They'd tend it till it gets so it wouldn't make nothing and then they'd let it grow up and try a new patch. Wood land then was had a lot of, you know, weeds had rotted on it so long; so long as it had lay it there. just planted in it, after they cleaned it off. They But, when it wouldn't make any more, why they'd let it change off and clear them off another patch, and try it. Q: Did all the gardening with horse drawn stuff, didn't you? A: Well, they usually had a patch that they kept their stable litter throwed on, that they did their gardening on. Mite small. My mom and dad always used their stable litter a little on their garden. She always had a pretty garden too. Q: Yeah, they didn't have tractors back then, did they? A: No, no, they used a team to do their plowing with, or oxen. oxen a lot. use a horse. Used And if they wanted anything cultivated, why, they had to They have cultivated with oxen too. I've drove oxens. I don't like it. Q: How is it different from driving horses? A: Mrs. J. Well, oxen can be so stubborn. won't budge at all. They won't budge till they get ready to. ever they get ready, then they'll go on. you can make him go on. They can just bug up and When- But a horse, most of the time, One of them old oxen, when he's stuck, he's just going to stay there til he's ready to go. Q: Did the farmers make the yokes for the oxen themselves? A: Mrs. J. Yeah, some of them did. knew how to make them made them. that made them. They used some of them that Maybe one person in the settlement �20. Q: Did they have a blacksmith around here? A: Mrs. J. Q: Where did y'all go to school over here? A: Mrs. J. at Trout. I guess they did, I don't know where though. Well, I went to school at Deep Gap, and he went to school He lived back in Ashe, he's from Ashe, Watauga County. I went to school in Deep Gap. I was born here in Well, I first went to school at the old schoo}, one room school building on Creek. x And then they put the schools together and took out a lot of the one room schools, and took out some of the county schools. Mr. J. seen. I remember the first air car and the first airplane I ever I bet you don*t---can't remember that. Q: No. Where was it? A: Mr. J. Way back in Ashe County. First airplane (car) I ever seen. twelve or thirteen years old. said, "all take a peek." Up on what they call the "Bluff." I was going to school---about Went past the schoolhouse. Rose something or another. got to see it, it was gone out of sight. stayed all after Teacher Before we all After that he come back and a little piece at church, I mean, schoolhouse. We'd go there and boy we thought that was the awfullest that had ever been. We'd look at it, go over there, reach in it, look at that car. Mrs. J. I can't really remember the first car I ever seen, but 1 can remember the first airplane I ever seen. We were living in Virginia at that time, and they's, gee I forget now whether there was five or how many there was in the bunch. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Five or seven. Went over in a bunch. They was the first ones I can remem- ber. Q: What did you think of them when you saw them? A: Mrs. J. Oh, I thought that was something great. All them airplanes, �21. I just don't remember the first car I ever seen. Mr. J. Well, I do. Mrs. J. I sort of remember one Dad ever bought. He got an old "scooter," strong armed as I am I'd run it up in the trees every time. Q: How much mileage did you get in those old cars? A: Mrs. J, I don't really know. I was too young really to know any- thing about them. Mr. J. Didn't have any roads then. Back in '27, with only gravel roads, if you got thirty-five mile,you's flying. boys taking me to see my girl. road, and you were flying then. I know. One of the Hit thirty-five mile on that old.gravel They thought that was something. Q: How many miles to the gallon of gas? A: Mr. J. I don't know. There was-—according to what model it was, I guess. Mrs. J. Mr. J. I don't know myself . . . . I don't remember for my life. now. They's quite a difference from Now one son-in-law, he told our daughter here---he's got one of them, I reckon you kinda call foreign made 1 reckon it's made in the United States or it's made just like one of those foreign cars. I think he gets about thirty-five miles.(to the gallon) Q: I get about thirty-two on my Volkswagen. age. You were talking about courting. That's pretty good mile- What all did you do? What did you do on your dates? A: Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Mrs. J. Mr. J. Q: I'd just go and sit all night is all I done. We'd just sit and talk. Stay till about eleven or twelve o' clock. We never did go anywhere. Go to bed. He'd come visit, sit and talk. I went everyday. Did you ever go pick berries or cherries or work in the garden �22. together? Mrs. J. Mr. J. Oh, we might have gone out together and pick cherries to eat. They were going to clear out the pig-pen one time, but I didn't stay long. Mrs. J. I come back. I was scared of it. I don't know, we might of got out and worked cutting cabbage or something, anytime that we'd be a working. Q: Can y'all think of anything else that I haven't asked you about? A: Mr. J. I don't reckon. After you leave, I can think of a whole lot. Mrs. J. Whenever a fellow's trying to think of something, ever think of Q: it. We appreciate you giving us this information. he can't � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sam Jones, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource Sam Jones was born in Deep Gap, North Carolina around the early 1900s on a farm where he grew up. He worked at a sawmill. Mr. Jones starts the interview talking about growing up on a farm. At this point his wife joins the interview, and they begin talking about berry-picking and produce. Mr. Jones also talks about working at the sawmill and the importance of the railroads in transportation. They both talk about their experiences with the Great Depression including topics of picking herbs, working, and church. Mr. and Mrs. Jones discuss the lack of doctors in the past and different home remedies they used. To end the conversation, the two recall the first time they saw a car and airplane. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNeely, Mike Jones, Sam Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 22 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape84_SamJones_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Todd, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Sawmill workers--North Carolina--Watauga County Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 berry picking Deep Gap dried fruit farming Great Depression herbs and roots home rememdies livestock maple syrup railroad Sam Jones sawmill https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7ed2a84c36978151df1164a8014b178d.pdf 6ec651ae55e6586851b3fe1eda47ff4e PDF Text Text This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Project with Mrs. Lelia Watson of Taylorsville, North Carolina. Mrs, Watts is my great aunt and has lived in Taylorsville her whole life. The interview is by Mike McNeely on June 9, 1$>73. Qs Where and when were you born? A: I was born in Taylorsville, February 10, 1883. Q: Who were your parents? Af Fate Sloop and Luna Thompson Sloop. Qj Okay, and your brothers and sisters? A: Well, Ada Norris was my oldest one, then I come next, then Bertha Stevenson next, and then Nell Sloop next. She's the last one, Qs Okay. What did your daddy do? As He was a carpenter. Q: Carpenter. Did ya'll have a farm or anything? As Tes, he had a small farm out west here, Qs With four girls in the family, who did the work on the farm? At Yeah, four girls - no, we didn't work on the farm we went to school and then when we were old enough, Ada and myself got jobs in the store. We clerked in the store until I married. Q: I'm interested in the farm. >Jiat all did your daddy grow on the farm? Do you remember? As Well, corn principally. And then garden. We had a garden with just vege- tables in it, but on the farm we just raised corn. Q: Did you have any livestock? A: We had one horse. Yeah, how I did dread to work on the farm. Q: What all did you have to do? As Hoe it, cut out weeds. Q: You didn't have any tractors or anything back then, did you? As No, everything was done by horses. �Q: Did your daddy have a plow? Ai Yes, he had a plow. Q: What else did he have? Did he have a sled or anything he pulled behind it? A: He had plows and hoes, and everything else that goes with a farm, you know. Q: Did you have any cows or any chickens? As We had some chickens, but just a few. Qt You didn't have telephones back then either, did you? At No, we didn't have telephones, and all the transportation we had was the buggy, °r wagon, or walking, Q: How often did you visit your relatives that didn't live in Taylorsville that you had to go see? A: Yes, we had some around Moravian Falls. Q: Did you see 'em often? A: No, not often. Q: Okay, could you describe a particular day or a typical day on your farm? What did you do when you were real small? What chores did you have to do? A: While I lived at home, before I was married? Well, my father plowed up something, we discovered it was an Indian pot! Yes, it was. The farm had been an Indian camping ground out there, and he plowed up this pot. I don't know who has it, your mother has it. Well, that is all that I can think of that happened that was exciting that day. We were all excited over it , of course. In fact, we thought we'd find something more, but we didn't, just the pot was all. Q: Do you remember any stories that your daddy may have told you about the Indians V around here or do you remember any legends? A: No, I don't remember any my daddy ever told. I can't think of them right now. �Q: You know some stories about the Civil War though, don't you? A: Well, Grandpa Sloop used to tell me something about the Civil War, but he was a bushwacker. He was a bushwacker. And one day Harold asked me what was a wackin1 the bushes. He heard that my grandfather was wackin1 the bushes during the war. And he asked me what was wacking the bushes. And I said he was bushwacker that was a hiding in the woods to keep from going to the war* Then grandmother would tell me about the Yankees coming in and taking all her corn out of the cribs, taking all her vegetables. When she has four children, small children, they didn't leave them anything to eat what-so-ever. Qt Aunt Lelia was the lady who made the distress signal of the Eastern Star to the men uptown* Didn't the come down to Aunt Mag's house and keep the Yankees from taking her ham or something? As I can't remember that. Q: Momma used to tell us about that» A: Well, maybe therejs, I can't remember that. Q: You said that later on you and your sister worked in the store... A: Store. She worked in the dry good store for Thad Campbell, and I worked in the furniture store for Uncle Jeff Allen. He ran the furniture store and he had a lumber plant. I worked in there for him, and was working there when I was married. Q: Were you married before or during the Depression? As I was married in 1 0 | 9i. Qs That was about twenty-six years before the Depression. Do you remember the Depression? At Well, yes, very well. Yes, I do! Qi How did it change your life or what did you have to do? As Well, we just had to do without things that we really wanted. �*At this point of the interview, a neighbor walks in and leaves a package. Q: Tell us about some of the hardships you had to go through during the Depression? A: Well, we had to do without sugar, we couldn't get sugar. They were... Mr. Burgess across on the other street ran a cane mill, and we sweetened most everything with molasses. We couldn't get sugar, and of course, Grandpa had a few bee gums. Wte had a little honey sometimes, but not very often. Mostly our sweets were molasses during that time, Qj You didn't have the money to buy stuff from the store much, did you? A: No. Q: What all did you have to make at home to make up for this? A: We had to make everything we wore, nearly. Q: How did you get the cloth to make that? A: Well, our father purchased it somewhere, I don't know where. Q: Did you wear a lot of hand-me-downs? A: Yes, I did. Q: How long would an average dress last? How many children would it have to go through? As Well, I don't know, T-e'd usually buy one dress a piece, a winter dress. And that would last us all winter to go to church and Sunday School. Well, then in the spring, we 'd store it and buy a summer dress which would have to last us until fall. We get out the fall one and wore it several years. Qt You really had to make things last, didn't you? Ai Xes, we did. It's different now, because I have to stand and look in the closet for some thirty minutes to decide which dress to wear to Sunday School nowo But times are different* Q: During the Depression was the church mere the center of the community �activities? A: Yes. Q: Were there a lot of things that went on there? A: Well, a good many. The church could buy such sugar and flour. The flour was pretty rotten though, wasn't much good. But the church would get that and then they would distribute it among the more needy. If they thought you had any, they wouldn't give you any. Q: You couldn't have any surplus then. You didn't have a real means of transportation, so what did you do for re- creation around that time? As Well, I don't know. We went to Sunday School and church on Sunday, and prayer meeting on Wednesday night. That's about all we had then. Q: Did you have a lot of community sings? A: Not many. Q: How about the women? Did they get around and quilt? As No, well, some of them did, the church did. They had quilts that members would get together in the afternoons and quilt for the needy. Q: Did you have a lot of covered dish suppers or anything? A: No, we didn't have any of those. We didn't have a kitchen in our church. I can't tell you how many years we've had a kitchen in our church, but for then we didn't serve the church. Q: The Depression was a really hard time, but do you remember any of the good days in the Depression? As fhere weren't any good ones. Qs Surely you can remember something good in the Depression? A: Well, I can't recall it right now. Well, it m£ght have been good for us in a way, but we couldn't see it right then, Qs Did it bring the families closer together or did it tend to pull them a- �part? A: Well, some families it did and some it separated. Some couldn't make it together. Q: Well, Earlier you said you and your sister went to school. Would you describe the school that you went to for me? At Yes, Professor White was our teacher. Professor Sharp was our teacher and we were mostly in one room. He had most of the classes and he was a wonderful, good old feller, but he was pretty strict. He didn't allow no courtin1 a going on in his school. No! And sometimes we'd get together, you know, and he'd be gone to his lunch, and when we'd see him a coming, we could see him a comin1, why we'd disperse, we'd get out. Qj What were some of the subjects you were taught? A: Up to the seventh grades is as far as we wento Qj What did you have to learn? Aj Well, we had grammar, physiology, arithmetic, reading, and spelling. Qj Did you have that little blue book, the Noah Webster Book? As No, we didn't have the blue-back speller. We had, I don't know what the name of it was* I did have an old blue«-back speller here, but somebody stole it. Q: We found it today at Aunt Cat's. We found a lot of old things out there. How many people were in the school? Do you remember? A: Oh, my goodness, I couldn't tell you that. How many? Everybody ±n the county went to this one school then. Q: Really, and it was one room? A: Well, it was more than one room, but there were several teachers* Miss Aussie Poole taught one room, Professor Sharp taught one, Professor White taught two or three, and Miss Payne, I believe, taught toward the last that I �went. Q: What were the age groups of the kids? Were they all thirteen years old or did they range from six to eighteen or something? At Around sixteen. Qt The average age? At Yes. Qt how long during one year did you go to school? Did you go a full nine months? At ^fes, we went full time. Qs How many years? At I don't know..My dad said that he wasn't able to send us to higher school. Momma died when I was eight years old. My oldest sister was twelve, Bertha was six, and Nell was three, and he was left with us four girls here to raise. We had it pretty tough. Qt Did you have any dances or anything at your schools? At Yeah, we had parties. l<foen we'd have a party, everybody in town was in- vited. It's different now. They just have it in groups. But back then, when anybody had a party, he invited everybody. Qs What all happened at these parties? T^hat did you do? At Well, we played games and danced, Qt What types of dance^do you remember? At No. The twist, I think (assarted laughter) was the most thing I think we could dance. Mostly just games different things, dorpping the handkerchief, and weaving the thimble, and things like that, you know. Qt What type of music did you have to dance to? At We had a piano. Qt Did you. have someone who could really play it? �At Well, yes. We had it at a place where they had a piano. They could play it, but if they didn't they could dance to that. Jeff Fortner had a French harp. He blowed the French harp and we danced by it a lot. Jeff Fortner, he's still living lives in Florence, South Carolina. I was real sick one time, I had neuralgia of the heart, and the doctor tole pappa not let anybody come in my room atall and to be very quieto And Jeff come out to see me that evening and the girls in the kitchen told him what the doctor had said. He said "Well I'm going in there and peep at her anyway." Ao he came in there with his French harp, "Home Sweet Home", and I was kind of doped, you know. When I woke up, I didn't know whether I was in heaven or not. I thought that was the sweetest music I'd ever heard. Q: You mentioned a doctor right then. How many doctors were in this area, back when you were little? At Well, there was I reckon, Dr. Carson. I can remember Dr. Carson. Q: How about Dr. Crowson, when did he come? Ai Well he didn't come until later. Q: And Dr. Edwards? As Yeah, later. Qs Was medicine pretty plentiful? Could the doctors get hold of it or did people have to resort to making their own medicines? A: No. We usually had to go after him, ride a mule or horse. Dr. Carson had a horse. Everybody knew his horse every where. It's like it is now. If the ambulance goes out, everybody goes to the porch and wonders where it's going and so forth. Well, when Dr. Carson would, we'd hear his horse's hoofs coming. We knew it was Dr. Carson, and we'd all go to see where he was going to see who was sick. There wasn't any telephone. They couldn't do like they can now<> There weren't any radios. Q: Did your mother use any wild herbs or anything for medicine? �At Yeah, She had a lot of wild herbs* Q: What did she use? As Well, sage,rue, and sweet basil. Q: What were some of the remedies? A: Well, I don't know. The sweet basil and the sage were used in meats, pre- serving meatso They were the flavor for the meats. The rue. I don't know what it was fors because if you touched it it made a blister, I guess. Qt You said you used that to preserve meats. How did:you preserve your other foods? A: Well, we didn't you mean preserve it. . . how? Q: You didn't have a refrigerate^ or freezers or anything. What did you do? A: Well, we usually hung our milk in the well. We had a rope and a bucket, and we'd hang it in the well. If we had butter or something like that, we'd put it in a different bucket in the well. Then when we!d get ready to eat, we'd draw them buckets up and drink our milk and eat our butter. But it was good from the well. It kept very good. QJ How about your fruits and vegetables? Did you can or dry any? As Yeah, we canned them and dried the most of 'em. Qs What are some of the things you dried? A: Well, apples , peaches, sweet potatoes. We dried most everything except we'd can a few peaches. Q: You did a lot of canning and drying and stuff like that before electricity came around right? As Yeah, well* we didn't have electricity for a long, long time. Q: When did it come into this area? A: Well, I don't know a just the date. I can't remember what date it was, Q: Do you remember around the « was it before or after the depression? �10 A: Oh, it was after the depression. Q: Was it before World War II? A: Yes, it was before World War II. Q: When did you get your first radio. Do you remember that? Was it long after electricity had come in? At Well, I can't remember the first radio we had. At I do, 1932 because I listened to "Little Orphan Annie." At '32, well, she's gotta better head on her that I have. Qt How about your first car. Do you remember that? At Yes, I remember that, it was a Buick, yes. We lived on the farm* That was after I was married. We lived on a farm, and Carl told me and the boys, if we'd work good that summer and raise a crop of tobacco, why he'd buy us a car. So the first crop of tobacco that we raised on our farm we used to buy a car with it, a Buick. From Carl Offfs pa. Qt When the first cars came out, there weren't a lot of gas stations around here. What did you do? At Well, we had one that we went to all the tine. It was one station we went to most all the the time. Boys got it, Carl and I didn't. Q: Did you travel a lot more when you got your car? As Well, I didn't, because Carl wanted me to learn how to drive to take the boys to schoo. We came into town one evening, we lived on a farm, and he had me driving back. Just before we got to the garage, he'd made a new garage, but he'd Just set the back end of it up, you know. He said "Now put your foot on the brakes" and I slammed them on the gas and I just went through that down through the field with that back of the sarace on top of my car, and 1 never tried it any more. And Carl, when he started, when he'd want to slow up, he'd hollar "Whoa! Whoa!". I think of a lot of little things that happened that way, �11 but I wouldn't want to live my life over again. Qs Is there any area, though, if you could change it, or if you could go back and live it over. Is there an area during your life you'd want to go back? At I can't think of any. As Yeah, when Sam and I were little. As Well, maybe, but they'd give a world of trouble. I don't know, I can't recall a space in my married life that I'd love to live over. There's a lot I wouldn't want to live over and I said the saddest time I ever had was when Sam was killed. The happiest time that I ever had was when I saw Harold baptised. Qs That really meantrft lot to you? What's your philosophy of life? A: Well, I don't know what I would name. Qs Well, here you are ninety years old. What's make you live this long? As Well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you obey your parents you'll live long. Well, I had to obey mine, for he was so strict on me, I had to. I can't—it might be some devil that I've loved in my past that I'm having to be punished for. Q: Do you think hard work- As Yes, hard work had something to do with it. I really worked hard in my life. Qs Well, is there anything I haven't covered that you would like to tell us. As Don't think there is. You could ask me what my hobby was. Qs Okay, what's your hobby? As Cooking. Qs You cook for everybody in town, don't you? As Well, everybody that comes in eats a little something with me. I just love to cook. I'll stand and roll our pie crust a half a day, and put them in the freezer in till tomorrow, you know. �12 But that's my hobby, cooking. If I'm sick, feel drowsy, or bad I go to the kitchen and start cooking. I forget all about it and come our alright. Q: I noticed you'be got a wood stove in there and an electric one. Which one do you like better? A: Wood stove, Qs Why? As Well, I don't know. I can cook everything on it at one time and the electric I just have to turn a burner on here and a burner on there. I just make a fire in the stove and it heats all over inside. Bake my pies in there. I don't bake cakes in there, but I bake my pies in there. You should eat a piece of my banana bread before you leave to believe what I told. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lelia Watson, June 9, 1973 Description An account of the resource Lelia Watson was born in Taylorsville, North Carolina on February 10, 1883. Ms. Watson talks about growing up on a farm. She also discusses the Great Depression and the lifestyle changes it brought. She then recollects memories from her childhood such as what is was like going to school and the new inventions from her youth like cars and airplanes. She also recalls her grandfather telling stories of the Civil War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNeely, Mike Watson, Lelia Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 6/9/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape70_LeliaWatson_1973_06_09M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Taylorsville, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Taylorsville--20th century Taylorsville (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--Taylorsville--History--20th century--Anecdotes Depression--1929--North Carolina--Taylorsville Civil War farming Great Depression schoolhouse https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ff152edd4a927d0087a1a8a20281098e.pdf 7b1713a24c85f18fb4f3b9b6449b88ac PDF Text Text This is an interview with Mr. Walter South for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Karen Wards at Mr. South's house, on June 12, 1973. Q: Where were you born Mr. South? A: I was born in Watauga County. Q: Have you lived here all of your life? A: All my life, yes. Q: Uhm...so you've lived in Tamarack. A: Yes. Q: How did TamalCack get started? A: Uh, it was named after the timber, the Tamaracks. Tamarack timber and it got its name from there. The Q: Do you remember some of the first families that lived here? A: Well my Grandpa was about one, and then my daddy. Watson used to live in this county. Q: Eric Uhm...what year were you born in? A: 18 and 99. Q: What were your parents names? A: Jim South and Liddy South. Q: Where were they born? A: Uh, my daddy was born here and uh my mother was born in Beaver Dams. Q: How many children were in your family? A: 8. Q: Do you know all their names and ages? My daddy's family? 8. A: Well, I know the names, but I don't know whether I can get the ages right or not. Q: OK, you can try. A: Well. Jenny was the oldest girl and mother had 6 girls and 2 boys. And the Jenny. And she's dead, but I don't know to her age or not. Uh, you mean now how now, or when they passed away? my daddy and my oldest one was named whether I get close old they would be �Q: A: Just whatever you can remember to tell me. Then Lizzie, was the second girl, and she died about 3 years ago. was 86 when she died. And Jenny was the oldest but she died younger. Florie was the third girl and she died at the age of about 55. was the fourth and she died at the age of about 30. She And Then Rosie And uh Josie is next. She lives in Tenn., she's 78 and Flory, lives over here at Track,; she's about 60 I guess. And then there comes on to Sam, my brother, and he died at the age of 70- And I guess I'm next. I'm 74. That's a long story. Q: That is. What did your father do for a living? A: He farmed. Q: What kind of crops did he farm? A: Well, he didn't do very much farming, he put up a lot of hay, but he didn't raise no big amount of crops; corn, wheat, and rye. cattle and sheep. He mostly raised He always kept a big bunch of cattle and sheep. made his livin off them. Marty But he did work on the farm oh, all of his life. Q: How much land did your family own? A: Well at one time my daddy owned, I believe it was 300 acres, and he give it all to the children and myself. He bought property out at that Wilson, what's his name? Q: Curtis Wilson? A: No, it was another. Anyhow, he bought a farm out there and he give it to �Flory. And he bought a farm up here of Eric Wilson, and give it to Sam. And then he utilizes so much land over here. I bought a lot of land that he had off in them and said Josie down $1000 dollars, and paid Jenny Reece, my bony sister $1000. 0: So you have a lot of land? A: Well, I did have, I've done like my daddy, I've divided it up among the children. I once had 270 some acres. at home. It's all divided up and all living Well, they all grown, the children is all makin their own way. All of/them got more than I ever had. Money used to be hard to get. But you can get money now whenever, why it ain't nothin' now. 0: Where did you attend school? A: Tamarack. 0: How long did you go to school? A: I was in the seven grade when I quit. Q: What were the teachers like, back then? A: Well, they wasn't nothin' like they are now. Down here, schoolhouse is torn down now. I quit at 15 years old. They wanted you to study and wanted you to learn and if you didn't they'Id use the hickory and send you home. They, that's how come I quit, they uh Charles Hobson was the teacher. He got toOhard on me and I wouldn't take it. Why I'd just ___ 0: Really? A: Thats right. . But is was my fault you know, he was a good teacher. went to school with my sister, Rosie. First school I ever went to. I �Q: What subjects were taught? A: Well, I can't hardly explain that, uh, geography, history, and, uh, I can't think of the rest of 'em. Q: Did- your whole family attend school at one time or the other? A: My brother and sister. Q: How many went out of your family? A: Well - uh- there was 7 years between me "n Sam. with any of 'em but Floy. Q: What was the first job you ever held? A: Puttin' up hay and workin1 on a farm. Q: Have you held any other jobs beside that? A: No. Q: Just workin' on the farm. A: No, worked on it all my life. Q: What church did you attend? A: Elk Knob Baptist Church. Q: Never did go to school Are there any other churches in this area? A: Yeah, they's a church of Christ. I guess there's another church down the road, but a that about fell through . Q: Wher did most people, in this community go to church when you were growing up? A: Elk Knob Baptist Church. Q: Has religion played an improtant part in your life, do you think? A: Yeah. Q: Can you tell me how? A: Well, its a pretty hard to explain, but it's a better life if your dependin' on the Lord and all. It's wonderful to think bein' saved we'll have a better life here after. I would say been the most fullest thing here in life. It's bein' a Christian. That's the way I've found it. Q: When you were growing up, were politics very important to the people? A: Not at all. Q: Can you remember any elections or any thing like that? �A: Yeah, I can remember elections way back when I was just a boy. They took it more like, just to have a good time, and gettin' together is some of 'em would get drunk. Just , they didn't care much who was elected. Q: What party did most people belong to around here? A: You mean uh... Q: Democrate or Republican. A: Well the majority of this, well this township is Republican. But ,uh, ain't no Democrats hardly in the township. I'Id say 8 or 10. There's a 100 and some Republicans. Yeah, the Demacrats is hard to come by. Q: What different kinds of transportation were used when you were younger? A: Well, it was horseback and buggy. Q: Covered wagons, did they ever have that? A: Yeah. Q: Can you remember the first car that you saw? A: Yea. Q: Do you remember when, what year, or how old you, were or anything? A: No, don't. I just...I, just don't remember where it was at or how long ago it was. Q: Can you remember how you felt about it when you first waw it? A: Well, it was kind of a surprixe, uh, kind of a wonder. Q: Did they have bad men or outlaws when you were younger,growing up? A: Yea. Same as today. Q: Can you tell me anything about them? A: Ueah- they was a family lived down a mile and a half up the road here, sold liquor- they used to get in to drink, shoot, and kill and then they'd get out and be enemies to each other and go off and shoot one another. Some of them drive around the corner of the house and shoot- they'd shoot and the others would shootsome of them got killed. Q: All because they were drunk? A: Yup. I could tell you quite a bit about it- but itwouldn't be necessary. �Q: If you want to tell me... A: Well this family sold liquor from Kentucky in kegs and sold liquor down here. And people would go over there to get their liquor, ya know. There's a fella that come from Kentucky, well, there was two of 'em. And they took up in this country and one of them married here. This family was pretty rough and there was something agoing on that they didn't like between his daddy and his son and they shot one of 'em. And one of them got well and the other one died. So outside of that, that was cleared up when I was fifteen, ten or fifteen years old and they all had vanished away and they got out of this country and died out. It's been a very good country since outside of a few spats and little falling outs, there's been a few kills but as of for now, it's, it's an average country. Q: Can you think of any legends that have been passed down to you? A: Q: Well, I don't know... How did the deression affect you and your family? A. Boy, it got the best of us. Q: Was it really bad? A: Yea. Like to went broke and my neighbors did, they went lum broke, it was an awful time. I bought cattle, calves at 17.00 a head just before the depression and kept them two years and sold them for $17.00 a head. Ted and them andgrazed them for two years and when they got when they got fat my neighbor bought some from some old man in South Carolina that fed cattle in the winter on straw, that's what they told me, and he brought 'em up here and I sold him a bunch of cattle at $17.00 a head, that weighed 900 pounds. And so when you don't make anything for two years you get down and out, and that's the way it was. ? Q: Urn, you were workin' on the farm during the depression? A: Yeah. See, I raised my wheat and bread and taters, about everything I lived off of in the depression. I had a few things you know, ate with groceries. It really scared us all bad. I hired a man in here to come to work for me to cut briars and bushes and told him I didn't have no money to pay him. I couldn't hire him and said he, I had to, I had to, I told him I'd pay him coin in corn and they worked for a half a bushel of corn a day, cuttin' bushes righr in back of the hollar here, it was Frank Andrews and Bud Johnson, and Wes , and everyone and I paid 'em off in corn that did already had made, but I didn't pay no money for them to have it. It was a good while that it went that away. Q: Did you always have enough food? A: Yea, never have been of food, milk, butter, meat, eggs, always lived good but you know, it takes a little money along �with it and we couldn't get it. Q: Do you remember any programs such as the WPA or CCC? A: Back in mu young days? Q: Yea. A: I didn't hear tell of anything like that. Q: Did you hear of it later. A: Yea, I heard of it for several years, but there wasn't anything like that when I was young. Q: Can you tell me anything about it? A: No, I can't. Q: During the depression were families closer to each other or did the conditions couse hard feelings between them? A: Well, I don't know htat it made very much difference. We got along about the same. Of course when people's down and out they wouldn't yodel and all like they would. Q: Did people go to church as much, more, or less during the depression? A: About the same. Q: It didn't affect the attendance? the schools? How did the depression affect A: Well, I don't know outside of our own community schools. It would run just about the same. That is the schools out here. I know if they were affedted any other way or not. Q: Who was the most affected by the depression in your community, like farmers, people like that? A: It affected the farmers more in this part of the country. Q: I want to ask you about when you were raising your family. Did you think it was the father's place in helping raising children? A: Yea, sure did and she helped me. We didn't have, there wasn't much doctoring going on only the herbs and stuff that we made at home. The doctors was far and wide at home and don't know whether there was such a thing as penicillin or anything like that, they just give you a few drugs to ease you and the suffering or you just had to buck it out yourself, mostly. Q: Did you have doctors, around.'.in here and you know doctors that would come to see you or anything? A: Yea, there's doctors around here, most doctors we depend on �were Dr. Robinson and Dr. Long. Q: I heard that Dr. Robinson was a real rough doctor. him to treat you.? A: Yea. Q: Did you ever have Was he pretty rough? A: Well, not too rough- the roughest one I ever had was Dr. ^ He come in this country when I was about twenty or twenty one years old, and he had his office over here at Zionville. And I had,ssee this scar there and one there? I had my throuat swelled up - knots under each side here. And they festered up and uh needed to be opened and I went over there to him and he took an old dull knife and went through 'em and opened 'em up and I told him, I said, "Doc I can't stand that, that knife's too dull. Ain't so;anuch dangerous otherwise. Never knowed it from another. Q: What kind of home remedies did they have? A: I didn't understand... Q: What kind of home remedies did they have when you were a boy? A: Our parents? Well, they had catnip tea for babies when they was first born. Fed on catnip tea, sweeten it, and uh fed on that about day, couple of days, then put on their breast. And penny royal tea; it was it was good for colds and we used that and cherry bark, they get it and boil it down to a syrup and it was good for sore throats. Care a sore throat or a cough. That was about the most remedies that we used. A: Did they ever have anything that you wore all winter long to keep from getting colds that you wore around your neck? Q: Seems like I remember somebody wearin' the nome was Fitity, don't know, something like bees was or something. I've heard of people wearin' that round their neck way back then. A: Were people very superstitious over here back then? A: Yeah, right quite a bit. cats across the road. Q: They went by signs in winter and black What other kinds of signs did they go by? A: They went altogether by signs of moon, sign on the calendar to plant stuff and do a lot of thins. Q: Well, did it seem to work? A: Well, they thought it did but, since I got grown and on my own I didn't pay no attention to it. Q: Well what kind of farmin' utensils did y'all use? �A: Well, it was an old horse drawn plow and home-made shovel plow and a hoe, pitchfork and a mowin' scythe. That was our tools. Rough. Q: What about houses? Y'know some of them have got real intricate little markins' and stuff on them. What kind of tools would the carpenters use on them to make them so pretty? A: Well they had home-made tools and my brother, when he was young then he made a toung and groove thing to match hardwood together, y'know, a tool that could do that, press together. And Erick Wilson, he had tools like that and they could take and cut figures and fix 'em up pretty, y'know. But it took a long time to do it, it was a. slow process but they got it done. Q: When did electricity first come in to this area? A: Oh, let me see, 35 years ago. Q: What was the first electrical appliance you got? A: Uh, washing machine. Q: Really? Bet you liked that didn't you? A: to ask her about electricity. Things like the refrigerator, deep freeze and uh televisions come in. I don't know when so it was awful handy but, gettin' awful expensive now. Q: What company was it? The same one as now? A: Yeah. Q: Which one was that? RCA? A: Uh-huh. Q: Well, who were some of the most outstanding people in this community when you were a young boy? Most influencial families? A: When I was a boy? Well, I'd say, uh, my daddy and my uncle, Frank South, lives up here, Eric Wilson, that was my daddy's brother-in-law, and Alaway Maines, was my wifes friend for a . Q: Well, do you know where most of these people come from that moved in here? What if they were Scotch-Irish or English or anything? A: Well I don't know, just where all they came from the first settlers in here was my grandaddy. Q: So they didn't have any strays around in here? A: No, not that I can remember. Q: You said you knew, the hashing, what is that? A: It's a peak. Q: Is it a mountain? 9 No, in this part of the country. �A: Yeah, I know but its called by Raskins, it's at the foot of Peak Mountain. Q: Who named that do you know? A: A Peak? No I don't. Q: Did anybody from your family? A: No. Now they could have but a family of niggers lived up there a year, raised a great family young. 0: Well then how did people around here feel about that, then? A: Well they, I guess societies together worked together and my daddy hired him to work for him. Frank South, my uncle, he hired 'em to work for him. But they wasn't considered as blackes, they paid 'em money and they had a home. They's a nigger graveyard up there. 0: What if just that family, they were just there? Or are there more in the county? A: Well, they uh, this family was a-co-livin' kinda with me. And the older one was, he was the daddy of and he lived up there 'till he died. dreg's family. Ouite a few niggers buried up there. Q: Eo you know what their names are? Their last name.? A: Greg, (sp.?) Q: Did you know where they come from to settle here? A: No I don't. 0: Are any of them still livin'? A: I, believe they all dead. They left up here, this last family that was raised up here, only got up to, some of 'em about 50. Anywhere from 35 to 50 and 60 years old, they left, in this country up here. And just strode off from town. Yeah they's one of 'em named Walt Red and Tom Red and Jim Red and Phip Red. I don't believe they had any girls. So, uh, they was just considered in this country, in my growin1 up, until they left here. They wasn't any difference from them and a white person, just all'sociated together, the best family of niggers you ever want to, uh, they didn't bother nobody, they wouldn't get drunk, they wouldn't, uh, just nice people, I know of Phip Red, he attended church down here and got baptized. Q: Wo they went to the whiter-church down here? A: Yeah. 0: Is their old home place still up there or is it rotted down? A: No it's gone. 40 years. Buildings all gone. I guess it's been gone here 'round 0: Well, do you know if there's any markers up there for the grave site? 10 �A: I wouldn't say, I ain't been there in uh, ever since I was a boy. They got it fenced off near . They tell me . Jim ran one of the oldest one. He went west and he come back in that boat was in "50. And they call it the Reeny (sp.?) graveyard. That was his mother's name, Reeny. And Wesley then cause . 1 know old man Anderson, he was a nigger. All I know 'bout him was he "was called "Old Man Anderson" or He lived, in California, and he'd come in this country and hunt for gold". Hunt for a mine up and down the creeks. And he was a fine old nigger he, he's been here and doing well. He was an old man when I was a young one. And he'd bring 'em grapes, great big boxes of grapes and uh, California grapes, And he'd stay with 'em up here, uh 2, 3 weeks and he'd go back to California. 0: Did he ever find any gold? A: Nope. Q: Has there ever been any gold found around in here? A: Not that I know of. 0: No precious minerals here, huh? A: (laughing) No. 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter South, June 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource Walter South was born in Watauga County, North Carolina in 1899 on a small farm. Mr. South's interview is mostly about his childhood and his memories from when he was younger.He talks briefly about Tamarack's history and his grandfather being one of the first people to settle there. Some topics he mentions while talking about his childhood include church, politics, the Great Depression, and home remedies. He also recalls memories of the only minority family he can remember growing up. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ward, Karen South, Walter Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 11 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape78_WalterSouth_1973_06_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Todd, NC Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-12 church Great Depression home remedies Politics Tamarack https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0deb31a19846a42c66b70b640f408c2d.pdf 3eb1e8441ee163467f0b24043b337470 PDF Text Text Tape # 41 & 42 Interview with Mrs. Carlton I. Name, age, birthplace of self and husband. II. Time they moved to Boone. A. Number of children and grandchildren. EC Reasons for settling in Boone. III. IV. V. Looms A. How they are operated. B. What she was making at the time of interview. C. Types of things made and how. Changes that have affected her. Schooling of family. VI. When they learned to weave. VII. VIII. Patterns in weaving. Craft house. A. Amount of time to teach weaving. IX. Weaving continues through the years. A. Reasons people enjoy weaving now. B. Reason she weaves. X. Hard times in life. Interview with Mr. Carlton I. II. III. IV. Name, age, birthplace and occupation. Job as deputy sheriff. Busting up the still. A. How it worked. B. Catching moonshiners. Sheriff, high sheriff, jobs. �This is an interview with E.E. Carlton in Boone, North Carolina, on March 20, 1973, for the Appalachian Oral History Project, by Lester Harmon. We're going to be talking with Mr. Carlton and his wife, Nellie, who does weaving and has looms in her home. Q: I want to get your name. A: My name's Nellie Carlton. Q: I'd like to get your age and your birthplace. A: My birthplace was in Wilkes County, February the sixteenth, nineteen hundred and three and you can guess how old I am. Q: Your husband? A: He was born in Wilkes County. No, he wasn't, he was born in West Virginia. And he was born July the sixth, nineteen hundred and three. Q: When did you all move to Boone? A: We moved to Boone - when did we, Lucy? Lucy: Oh - when I was six year old, forty year ago. Q: And how many children do you have? A: Four. Q: And do they live here also? A: Yes, all of 'ems here now in this country. Q: I guess you have grandchildren up here, don't you? �A: Yeah, I have fifteen grandchildren and fifteen great-grandchildren. Q: Why did you all pick Boone to settle down in? A: Well, my father lived here and we just come for a :while and we just liked it so good, we stayed. Q: It's pretty country. A: Yes. Q: So you moved here before you and Mr. Carlton were married. A: No. No, we was married and all of our children was born there. Q: And you say your children are still in the country? A: Yeah, all of 'em's here now. One did live in South Carolina, but she lives here now. Q: How long have you been doing this weaving? A: Since '53. See I's fifty-three year old when I started, when I learnt to weave. Q: And can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and the type of loom you're using? A: Yeah. Now this, see, this fastens all thread you need and you just use one chunk. And now three or four is your pattern treadles and one and two is your plain weave. �Q: Now explain what you mean by that, by treadle and the plain weave. A: Well, the treadle is what works the loom, works these up here, works the frames, the things down here, the treadles that your feet work on. Now this is the way the pattern will be and when you want to put another bobbin in, you connect it like that. And on doing this, you step on your pattern treadles and then over on the weave. And then when you get that all done you've got to treadle in on plain weave and then go back to your pattern treadle. Q: How long does it take you to set up this pattern? A: It takes a right smart while to get that set up. See you have to thread through all these kettles. Q: Do you know how many of those there are? What is that called? A: Bronson lace. Now this is what I think I made for your mother. Q: What are you working on now? A: I'm working on a placemat now. Q: I mean, what do you call these things? A: You call them kettles or the needles or whatever you want to call it. That little loom over there in that one works like, you call these the colonial weave. It's real old timey and this is a little later pattern than what they used to call it. �4. Q: Who built the frames for you? A: Now we ordered these frames and this loom, I believe it's a store bought loom, but that one and that one are handmade. My husband and son made that one and my husband made that loom. Q: How old are these looms? A: Well, that one there is, well, I got it when I started learning to weave in '53 and that 'un is about fifty-four and this one, I don't know, it's real old now. Q: What kind of things do you make with this big loom? A: I make aprons on the big loom. Q: Can you make things like tablecloths with this big loom? A: Well, you can, but you have to put it together. It's too small for a table- cloth, but you can put it together like I showed you a little on this one. I'm up to where I'm supposed to put the pattern in. Now when you want to roll it down like that and then tighten it up, you have it real tight and with two shuttles. Q: This one works on the same principle except you use two shuttles, A: About the same thing only you use two shuttles. In that 'un the pattern is threaded in the loom. See I'm going on five and every time you put a �pattern treadle in you have to put a plain weave and tuck in this end of thread. Q: And you said this was a pattern? A: Yeah, now this is a pattern. I'll show you some of the aprons in a minute. Now in between this I put in three, I mean nine, chalks of plain weave. Now you want this shuttle on the left when you start putting your pattern in. Now the rest of it's done just like that only I'm putting the sender in the cup like that down there. I can undo that so you can see. Q: I don't think you'll have to undo it. A: See that? That's made with two shuttles. Q: And that pattern shuttles used to do all this and the white is the plain. A: The white is this plain weave, plain five threads. there. I had two aprons on When I cut it I leave some on. Q: How long does it take you to make one of these aprons? A: I can make one of them aprons, weave it, in about an hour. In a little less than that if I have my bobbins wound, but it takes longer to make them up. I'll show you some in here. mistake. And now right here in this loom is a bad We put the whole ways on and just section had sixty threads. out after we got the ways on and I had to add on some bobbins to it. We found it �6. Q: When you mess it up like that, do you have to go through and do the whole thing over? A: You have to do like I'vecbne that. is what I make on that. up. I'm trying to get it wove off. This Placemats, they've not been washed nor done They look better after they're washed. Q: How did you learn to do this weaving? A: My daughter, my oldest daughter taught me and then they's a woman taught weaving at the Watauga Handicraft Shop. She taught me. After all the children got gone and I was lost for something to do and I just took up this weaving. Q: And you really enjoy it. A: Yeah, I really enjoy it. much handwork in it. See how you have to make the aprons up. They's so It's all handwork. The hem, hemmed with your hand and the band put on with your hands. Q: They're really beautiful. A: Now here's another thing that I make. Q: Now do you sell these? A: Yeah. At the craft houses. We couldn't last winter. enough to keep 'em filled up with aprons. We couldn't weave My sister weaves and my older daughter, well this 'un that's here weaves some too, but she works at the craft house and she don't have much time to weave. I do that in my spare time. And I crochet too. �7. Q: You're really handy with your hands. A: I 'bout got this critter done I think. Q: What do you call this, an afghan? A: An afghan. Q: What were some of the changes in mountain life and this area and the Boone area that have affected you most? A: Well, I really wouldn't know how to explain. Hit's a lot different than what it was when we moved here. Q: Has the tourist industry affected it a lot? A: Well, it's helped a lot, I think, don't you? Q: As far as economy, it has. Did you work here in Boone when you first came here? A: No, I just worked at home as a housewife and maybe garden, like that. And you know I went to school, to the college in 1920 and now it sure is different now to what it was then. Q: Yeah, I guess it is. Did your husband go to college here or any of your children? A: No, my children all just finished high school. Well, my boy that does that carpenter work down there, he didn't hardly finish high school. He didn't �want to go to school. Q: And he's a carpenter? A: He does carpenter work. He can make anything he wants to out of wood. It's like me by threads. Q: Well are there certain patterns that are traditional kinds of patterns that you weave? A: Yes. On these looms in here, I did have a sampler of all the different things that you can make on it. See you can make this, this on it. All this on it. Q: Now what is that called? A: Miniature snowball is the name of it, but I don't know what just this pattern would be. things. Now you can make it in a round circle and in different I think my sampler is over at the craft house. I had a sample of all the different things that we could weave. Q: Do you know where these patterns came from? A: No, no I don't. Q: Is there somebody around here now that teaches weaving? A: No, nobody but her in there. She teaches along when that craft house opens. The lady that teaches weaving starts talking here. �A: I'll be starting back up the first of April, I guess. Q: Do you have a lot of students that are interested in doing it? A: Well, I have four or five that are supposed to come now and I hope to have more. Q: Where is this Watauga Handicraft? A: It's across from the Daniel Boone Inn. Q: And is this funded by the town or is it privately owned? A: No. No, it's privately owned. Q: Does it take a long time to teach students to do work like this? A: Oh, I'd say in about three days I could have them following a pattern and doing their own pattern. Q: Is there somewhere you can get the looms after you learn ? A: Well, I'd say you would have to order them from the Hammet Loom Company. It would be the best bet 'cause labor's so high on building them I think they put them out by production. to get 'em handmade. You can maybe get 'em cheaper there than you could Where a lot of people do come in and may try to look at 'em and make their own you know, which they do a fine job on it. of them though want a loom. Most all Once they come in and weave they like it so well till they just, they're lookin 1 for a loom then for theirself. �10. Q: Have you got looms at your home too? A: I've got one at home and one at the shop. Q: Are you working now, teaching? A: No, not now, I'm off. I work till December, till Christinas and then off till April. I'm So I get caught up on a lot of weaving at home. Q: Do you think that people will continue to weave, or is this something that's dying out? A: No, I think that they really like it better now than they did. Q: Why do you think that is? A: Well, I don't know. Q: Do you think it's because of so much, well, just the aprons and placemats and stuff, they're all made in the big factories; do you think it's just the art of doing it at home that people are attracted to? A: Yes, it's something they like to do for their, for gifts and things like that, you know, and lots of 'em are not doing anything else and they enjoy doing it then. Q: Do many people say they like to do it 'cause it is soothing and it gives them a chance to. . . �11. A: They sure do and they usually always planning some of their friends to give it to because they want to give it and share it with someone else. Q: That's marvelous. So many things are just made in factories and you don't have the quality. A: It's hard to get the value out of it, of what you have in it. The time, you really won't get anything for your time. That's why you feel like you want to give it to a special friend. It's more than getting the money for you really don't get the money out of it, it's worth. If you did, see you'd have to charge a lot more than what we do. Q: Well, then why do you do it? A: Well, I just do it, well I do it to make some money out of it too. Up in the shop when I'm not working at the front, you know or something, I'm in the back making coverlets to sell and because I really like it. Q: Do you do any other work in crafts besides weaving? A: No. I make flowers, you know. I've made flowers to sell. Mrs. Carlton reading verses: Trust the master weaver when and seem so out of line. Trust the master weaver who planned the whole design. For in life's choicest patterns some dark threads must appear, To make the rose threads fair, the golden bright and clear. The pattern may seem intricate and hard to understand, but trust the master weaver and his steady guiding hand. My life is all a weaving between my Lord and me I may but choose the colors he worketh steadily. �12 Sometimes he weaves sorrow and I in foolish pride Forget he's seen the upper and I the underside. Not 'til the loom is silent and the shuttles cease to fly Shall God unroll the weaving and explain the reason why. The dark threads are as needful in the weaver's skillful hand As a thread of gold and silver In the fabric He has planned. Q: They're marvelous. Where do you go to church? A: Up Cool Spring Baptist Church. It's just a little ways, you can see it as you go down this way, the Paine Branch Road. Q: Yes, I've seen it. It's a beautiful little church. A: Yes, it's a little church. Q: Does it mean a lot to you to have the kind of faith that is talked about in these? A: Yes, it does. Q: I suppose life hasn't always been easy when you've lived up here. A: No, it's not always been easy and still it's not easy. I have my problems. But this weaving has really helped me, because I was just restless and nervous and I got my looms and that's good for it. Q: And it really does make a difference, then? A: Yes, it does make a difference. Somebody said that they were nervous, they couldn't weave. I told them that you can get to weaving and forget about your problems. You've got to when you work with your hands and your feet and your head too. Q: Has life become less rugged or hard up here, was it difficult when you first moved here? A: It was in a way. We were farming when we moved here and the first year we �13 moved here there came a frost in June and killed about everything that we had planted. And then our house got burned up when we lived here. Q: Now, what year was this? A: What year was it we moved here, Lucy? I can't remember. LUCY CARLTON A: Well, I thought it was about forty years ago. Q: Did your house burn up the same year that you lost your crop? A: It did, didn't it? The year that the frost killed the crops. Q: How did you make it with no house and no food? A: Well, you know, it wasn't so hard then. The dollar would go a lot further. The dollar would go a long way. Q: Was Mr. Carlton working? A: Yes, he was working and he was walking from here toBoone to work. Q: What was he doing? A: Carpenter work. Q: Does he stillciosome carpenter work? A: Not too much anymore. He goes down in the shop and helps Paul. Q: Is Paul your son? A: Yes. Q: And he owns the shop out here? A: Well, we own it really. Q: But he does work out there, carpenter work? A: Yes. �14 MR. CARLTON Q: To start off with, I'd just like for you to give me your name and your age and your birthplace. A: Well, it's E.E.Carlton and my birthdate is July the sixth, nineteen hundred and two. I was seventy years old last July the sixth. tractor now for the last thirty-five years. I've been a carpenter con- Farming some between times a little, I have been a farming some between times. But I used to farm a right smart, but the market got so that we couldn't make anything out of the farming and I just quit it altogether and grassed my farm and I went to contracting altogether. I worked with lots of different construction companies, such as: R. K. Steward; L. B. Guiles in Highpoint; L. B. Gallimore out of Greensboro; and another company out of Conover. Q: You've been around then haven't you? A: Yeah. I worked at Durham. I built a dormitory there at Durham and an addition to the psychiatric wing to the hospital in Chapel Hill. Built that and got that all done with so I just went into contracting for myself after that. And I been retired now from that for a couple of years. But I do have a shop of my own here and we still make cabinets for people and install cabinets. Q: Have you done a lot of work around here in Boone? A: Yeah, yeah, I've done, I've built, I don't know how many house I've built here in Boone and in Blowing Rock. �15. Q: When did you say you quit farming? A: I quit, entirely quit farming in '60. Haven't done any farming since '60 except in the garden. We raise a garden every year. Q: I was talking to Col. Elvery last night and he said that you used to be with the police force; is that right? A: I used to work with the revenue officers, the federal officers. I was deputy sheriff of Wilkes County, deputy sheriff of Caldwell County, and deputy sheriff of Watauga County at home here, which I have helped to cut up a many of a still, liquor still. Q: Has there been more crime and vandalism over the years as more people began to come into the mountains and more outsiders began to come in, and harder to handle? A: No, see it's been fifteen, eighteen years, twenty, since I was a deputy sheriff here. No, we didn't have no trouble much like they do now, no. Q: Is there a big difference now? A: Yeah, there's a big difference now and about twenty years ago. Q: I was talking to Col. Elvery and he said you had an interesting story you could tell me about Billy Stewart or Billy Stewart's father or somebody. A: Well, we just went to a still one time. We got a report on a still and the man that reported it, he didn't want us to give him away, you know. �16. And he said he'd take us and show us the still, show us right where to find it at, then he was going to slip back home and let us go in there and tear it out, catch 'em if we could. So we slipped around and around in there and he showed us that they had it lit up just like a town down in the holler there and we slipped around down there and got down and we s-at down and planned out how we's gonna surround 'em, surround 'em, you know and catch 'em. And nobody wanted to speak or say anything at all till one man supposed to run in and flush 'em out and then we's gonna grab 'em as they come out of there and so all at once we got down, they's one of the revenue officers, now mind you, his boy was connected with that, so we got down at a certain distance, you know of the place and he said, "All right boy just stand still. We know right where you're at. " So they shot and cut underbrush and we never got 'em out, narry a one. But we did get the tools and the still boiled over while we was running them and trying to get a hold of them, the still boiled over and run over. We then went down to the still after we seen we couldn't get anybody and tore down and cut up the still and took the worm in, the worm and the still, it was a copper still, we took the worm and the still in for evidence, you know. Q: What do you mean about the worm? A: That's a worm that they run that water through after it condenses it back into liquor. After that water comes through there steam comes out of that still it condenses it back into liquor and they have a little spout, little can under the end of that worm to catch it in. It's all condensed through a copper worm. And that's just the way that one went off. We didn't get anybody, but we got evidence, �17. we knowed who they was and we had a right to divide up the stuff that we got at the stills and this here deputy sheriff, I mean revenue officer, one of them, he knowed the coat and he knowed his boy was at, he knowed it belonged to his boy so he wanted to take the overcoat, it was a nice overcoat and he wanted to take the overcoat and I take notice to him in a few days and it was pretty cold weather and I saw this boy with the same overcoat on. ;I think about the overcoat and knew it was the same overcoat that we got up at the still. That's the reason he wanted it back, you know. He was gonna give it back to the boy. His own boy was right into it. Q: Was this a long time ago? A: Yeah, that's been, I ' d say, forty-five years ago. Q: Well, now, did you ever catch any of them? A: Yes ma'am. Yeah, we catched several fellows. At another still we caught up on Shull Creek, we, I and another fellow, we went over and located the still, slipped around one day and located the still and finally we found, we got on their tracks and tracked 'em into it and finally we run into a little path, we knew they'd see our tracks, so we gets out and crawl through the woods and gets down to where we can see it, see the still and when we got down there, got to where we could see the still good, we was still under cover from the laurel bushes and things, and we heard a man whistle up on the hill, he come up there and whistled. He was a coming in there to watch that still. gonna run off that day. They was a running off, Just me and another man, wasn't no officer with us, �18. but me, so we didn't need to try to undertake running in on a whole gang of fellers there, just us two. I just had him there to go with me in there to locate and we found it and we called revenue officers out of North Wilkesboro to come up there and be tte re and we'd go in at nine o'clock that night. We'd meet down at a certain place and we'd all go in there and come in on 'em and see if we couldn't get 'em. And by granny, when we got in there to where they's at, why they had done run off what their run was and loaded it up and carried it out. And so we caught, as they went out of there some of 'em come in from below you know, and they caught one man carrying two five-gallon cans of liquor and on his back. out and got away. They knowed who he was, so the rest of 'em all went So we just went down by that man's house and everything and we poured out his liquor right there and let him carry the empty cans back to the house and took the feller in there and let his folks sell a bond for him and then we took papers for the other folks that we saw in there. We knew the whole bunch of them and they took papers for the whole bunch and got them arrested. And they paid fines and some got a month or two and some's on the road and lot of 'em got out of it that way. Then we, my daddy and I and this same fellow, one Sunday, we took a notion to go out up on, up Shull Creek and ahead of it and see if we could locate another one. We got a sorta tip off that they was one back in there yet, another one. So we went back in there and before we ever got to the place we found the still hid under a laurel bush and then we went on down just a little further and found their furnace and all their stuff there and they'd moved out everything, they'd run it off and moved it out and hid their still so off we started back home and in going down towards, down to Shull Creek we found a �19. man's tracks there. I found the tracks myself and I said "There's some tracks boys. " I said, "They might have walked down through here some way or another. " And we just followed that track out around the side of the branch and hill, the side of the hill, you know there was a branch right down through there. And we crossed over a log and my daddy, Eugene Carlton, he says, "Look a here boys. " He says, "Looky here under the side of that log. " And so he turned over that log there and found three five-gallon cans of liquor hid there and while he was doing that I scratched down on the other side of the log and found two five-gallon cans of liquor there and so we thought we'd work a trick on 'em. We turned them cans and poured that liquor out and shut the cans up, you know, just like they was but we punched, they was cans that had that wooden ring around 'em, and we just took a nail and slipped holes up through the bottom of that thing and then in about two or three months after that, why they put up again and used them cans to put the liquor in, poured it all in there and set it down, went off and left it and when they come back we understood that all their liquor had run out of them cans. So they lost fifty gallons of liquor there right from the same cans. Q: Who was the sheriff? A: It was a feller, Frank Hillby was the deputy sheriff. We never did get him out up there at all. He wasn't with us. We always called the revenue officers They, see they was government men and if anybody got killed or we had to kill anybody or they killed somebody, why we'd have sufficient evidence to convict 'em with. �20. Q: What is the high sheriff now? Don't you call the main person the high sheriff? A: Yeah. Yeah, he's the high sheriff of Wilkes County at that time, he was Frank Hillby, was his name. He was the high sheriff of the county just like we've got over here at Boone, you know, and he's got deputies all around there. But if he's got, if he's got a dangerous place to go into and everything to try to catch somebody where he thinks he might run into some danger and have to kill somebody or get killed one, why he always calls the Commissioner out of Raleigh or head man, used to be Mr. Horn, I don't know who's our head man there in Raleigh over that business now, but it used to be a fellow Horn. I know back in, how many years back has it been since those Stewards down here got, robbed that man. No, it ain't been forty years. It's been at least twenty years ago that they was two Steward boys robbed an old man right over here on, just out from where her daddy lived, Mr. West. They robbed an old man there and took eighteen hundred and some dollars off of him, and knocked the pocketbook out of his pocket off on the bank of the road with three dollars and something in it. They didn't get it, they got his big book. So we hunted them out and got 'em out. I .located them one morning. I went to these boys' wives, they were Steward boys and one of the boys had married a Daniels woman. She had been married before, her name was Daniels so now then she's a Steward and so they had a little trouble, her and her man did and I slipped down there to her house and told her, hunted her up, you know and got her to tell me where ttoey was at and she told me that they was a leaving there. She says, "They're about at Boone now somewhere," says, "They've just been gone a �21. little bit. " Says, "They're headed for Silverstone to spend the night, over at Silverstone and then they was going from there to Ohio. " So I got that tip off and I went over to Boone and got over there and drove around through Boone and I saw one of 'em. And I called the highway patrolman that was over there. I knew where he always sets, you know, and listens and I pulled around to where he was at and he was just a fix in' to pull out and go somewhere or another. Then I just run up in front of him and stopped and I said, "Let's go around here and get that Steward boy. " I said, "I seen one of 'em right around here. " And we, run around there and by the time we got around there where he was at, he had left his daddy, he was talking to his daddy. Daddy had a horse there that he'd rode into town and he was talking to him, but when we got around there he had gone. We went down to where the FCX is now. They was a road they called the Old Popular Grove Road and we saw a boy a gettin' in a car there and I said to the patrolman, Miles Jones, I said, "There they go in that car right now. They're getting in there and leaving. " He said, "Surely that ain't them. " He said, "Let's go on down the road here and maybe we'll find 'em around here yet somewhere on the backstreets. " So we run around there and didn't find them. We come back down and followed the Popular Grove Road a good long ways and we didn't overtake no car. They was in a little old coupe, a Model A coupe and so I had to come back home and I told him, I says, "You take a ride over on Brushy Fork over on 421 west out of Boone. " I said, "You take a ride over in that a way somewhere and, you and the sheriff. " Sheriff C.M. Watson, Charlie Watson was the high sheriff at that time. So him and Jone s drove over that way and they got down to an old store over there. �22. There was a feller, Doc Mast run the store and they just decided to stop in there and ask him if he'd seen anything of them three boys anywhere around there. And he said, "Yes sir, " he says, "There was two in here just a few minutes ago and they left out of here. " And they asked him if he knew which a way they went after they got out of there. He said they had bought about four dollars worth of stuff out of there. And he said, "Yes sir, I noticed just which way they went. They turned right out around behind the store and went across, across through-there" And after he got around up to the top of the hill, they was a long street down through there. They saw them boys there walking down through that street and they just pulled in and run down there to 'em, right up at 'em, you know and one jumped out on one side and the other, the other. One little boy was on one side of the other and the other, the other and they just jumped out there and grabbed 'em. Caught 'em up and put 'em in the penitentiary for, they give 'em from eighteen to twentytwo years in the state penitentiary. And then they got away other times, they got away, we had to run and catch 'em. I found 'em under a rock cliff down here one Sunday, me and another, I picked up a boy to go with me and we found 'em. I just walked up the path toward two of them and seen they was asleep and I didn't believe I wanted to undertake 'em by myself; I just had a civilian with me, you know and he didn't have no gun nor nothing with him and so I just come over to the prison camp to catch,the highway patrolman was over there, the state patrolman to come in there with me to get them boys and they seemed to want to call the, I forget what you'd call him, he was the head of all the sheriffs in Raleigh, went after that feller Horn I was talking about a while ago. So they �23. called him to come up there, they says, "We'll call him in case that we have to kill somebody there or something happens we get killed and then it'll all be over, there won't be no, he'll be the main witness in it all. So he went with us in there and he done surveying out for us to place ourselves, you see, all around that place where they was at, and I told him it was getting dark when they called Horn. on my way. He says, "I'm on my way right now. " Says, "Just right now I'll be there in an hour and a half. " And it was about an hour and fifteen minutes he drove from Raleigh up here. And he come in to the prison camp there, well, the prison camp manager, he wanted to fix supper for all us there, they fixed us all a steak supper and we ate supper there and then come into the place there after dark to get 'em out. We come right down here at the Forks Road and parked their car and walked down around and went up in there to the place. And I showed Jones, the highway patrolman, the path there. I said, "You go up the path now and follow this little path and you'll run right into the end of the rock where they're at. " They was awake when he slipped up there and we all scattered out around, you know, where we could catch 'em as they come out. And I told 'em they'd just dash off under those laurel thickets and lay down and his and you couldn't find 'em in a week going in there in the night. And sure enough we couldn't find 'em. They was in there laying in their cots when Mike Jones, the highway patrolman, walked in on 'em. He said, "Boys, just stick-'em-up now and give up. " Says, "We done got you. " And they didn't do a thing in the world, you've seen people dive off of diving boards into the water, they just dove off into them laurels just like that and was gone and we couldn't find �24. hide nor hair of 'em all night. They hunted the next day, there was another deputy sheriff, him and another feller come up to Winkler Creek a lookin 1 for 'em and they met 'em right in the road and they was in ten steps of 'em when they saw 'em and this here feller pulled out his, Red Green was his name, he pulled out his pistol and he shot at 'em five times right there in ten steps of 'em when they saw 'em, and -never touched narry one of 'em and they just walked off a little ways down across a holler and branch and walked up the side of the mountain and him shooting him and the other feller both had guns. He had deputized a feller to go with him, if he was the deputy sheriff at that time too and he deputized a feller Nelson to go with him. And they was both a shooting at 'em a going up the hill up there and never touched narry one of 'em; got away and finally they caught 'em, they got away and their daddy had moved out on the north of Boone over there on the mountain. They slipped to their daddy's and stayed hid there for a day or two and finally the highway patrolman, Jones, he was a riding up through there and shot at him and hit him in the arm and then, and then, then they tracked him from that on through the woods and on, on into, to a place they call Pottertown over in there. Mean, rough town back in there and when we got over there then to where he was at, why the other one was there and so they got 'em, both of 'em. The high sheriff and Patrolman Jones, they got 'em both up there and drove 'em back to the jail and sent 'em on back to the pen. One of 'em so far as I know is in there yet and the other one they say has got back in there. Q: How long has this been since this happened? �25. A: Well, it's been at least twenty years. Q: You were talking about the stills before this, did you have a lot of stills that you had to break up? A: Yeah, yeah, we broke up hundred of stills. Q: Well, do they ever have much trouble with 'em now? A: Oh yeah, they's having a little trouble yet, and it free to buy out here in Blowing Rock and all around and made those stills, put up a little ol1 still around somewhere trying to make bootleg some themselves, but they get caught anymore. They can't make very long because somebody'll give it away somewhere or another, telling, deceiving and something, give reports to the sheriff and they go in there and tear it up, but they hardly ever get anybody. That's the hardest thing you ever seen in your life, to get somebody. Now one of those Chall boys, I'd say they got down in Wilkes County, he got over there. I caught him when we had another deputy sheriff come in and flushed him out of the stills. I was there. It was a path that come right up there, a a big chestnut tree and I heared 'em working the brush and running everything in through there and tearing down and I fixed it so I, if I hear just a little something, say it was anywhere you can get one of 'em. I sat right by the side, right behind that tree, I heared a fellow coming up, coming up the road, he was running through the brushes, he was give out. You could hear him a panting far as fifty yards nearly and he come on up, he come on up by there and I was sitting there right by the tree and he walked right by me. I said, "Where �26. you going son?" And he said, "I, I's going to the house. " I said, "Well," I said, "I'll just go with you then to the house. " So, we got him. He was one of the same gang that we run out of that other still, the first one we got up on Shull Creek. Q: Mr. Carlton, it's been good talking to you. It's been really interesting. A: Yeah, I've been glad to have you . all with me, explain to you what I know. Show you my farm, workshop, houses, apartments and all that. Q: What are some of the changes in this area that have affected you most over the years since you've been here? A: Some of the changes? Q: Yes. A: Well, they've changed and people's turn loose of their land and sold lots and they's been quite a lot of building, building going on and it's, the population of the county has advance, I'll say fifty or seventy-five percent in the last twenty years. We really had a good advancement here in Watauga County. Q: What's brought in most of the people? A: Well, we had, we first got some industrial works started here such as the I. R. C. plant. That was the first plant to come into town here. Then, then we got Shadowline, we called it, to make ladies' ready-to-wear underwear �and they worked about three hundred people. I. R. C. worked about three hundred people and they just kept coming in, flocking in from everywhere to work there and they put in a tool plant then over there. Then Lowes has put in a big shopping center down there in the valley, you know where it is. All that fine stuff gone in there and the times has really been going forward for the last several years now. Land has gone up high, land has gone up high. Why I have land here that I paid, say five hundred dollars an acre or less than a hundred dollars an acre, maybe twenty dollars an acre for some of it, and my land, I could get twelve thousand, five hundred dollars an acre for, for lots. Just hundred foot lots off of it. Q: If you could change anything, like the way the mountains have changed and everything; if you could change anything now yourself, what would you change? A: Well, I wouldn't know hardly what to, what steps to mate a change, to make it better unless we just put up more industrial buildings. for the people. More work They've not got a, still not got enough of the people that's flocked in here so from everywhere. Bought lots and built houses and everything like that till we don't, just ain't got room for part of 'em. having to build apartments. We're If it hadn't been for the mobile homes and these ready-built homes, you know, coming in, such as the shell homes and all those homes there, why we, we could not have had places for 'em to live because contractors couldn't have built houses for them to live in at all to, till they �28. got to bringing those in and that helped out a lot. They've got, I don't know, I ' d say they's fifteen or twenty trailer camps around Boone over here. Now, it's full of trailers. They rent to people who bought trailers and make a place to settle over in there, which I don't have no trailers on my street through here. It's restricted from that. Q: Do you, do you think that the increase in population and number of outside people coming in and building summer homes and the tourist industry rising like it is; do you think is harming or do you think it's helping, or do you think that there's much hope for the mountain culture that used to be? You can see so much of it down and out. A: Well, hopefully, hopefully I believe that, that it's going to be good for a few more years yet, unless a depression hits the country, it's going to still be on upward go. Be rising, rising and people settling down in here and everything like that and I think they're trying to get more industries in here too, plants and things to give more people work. That's going to bring everything up to a high standard. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mr. & Mrs. E.E. Carlton, March 20, 1973 Description An account of the resource Nellie Calrton was born on February 16, 1903 in Watauga County, North Carolina. E.E. Carlton was born on July 6, 1903 in West Virginia. Mr. Carlton worked as the deputy sheriff in Wilkes, Watauga, and Caldwell County. Mrs. Carlton talks about her hobby of weaving throughout most of the interview. She explains different parts of the loom along with the different aspects of weaving. Mr. Carlton tells stories of when he worked with the police department, specifically connected with the federal officers and finding stills. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harmon, Lester Carlton, Mr. & Mrs. E.E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/20/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 29 pagse Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape41-42_Mr&MrsEECarlton_1973_03_20M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Law enforcement--North Carolina, Western Weaving North Carolina, Western--Social life and customs--20th century deputy sheriff moonshining outlaws police department stills weaving https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a9de651cc2dc310eed78d533fb4541cd.pdf 3425a522b8e1f54758666b061dfc7733 PDF Text Text AOHP #35^ < Page 1 This is an interview with Mrs. Ollie Blackburn at Todd by Joy Lamm for the Appalachian Oral History Project on March 9, 1973. Q: I already introduced you, but you might tell us how old you are and how long you've been living here. A: Well I was reared in Watauga County. Q: Were you? A: Right up here. What part of Watauga County? Todd was our post office, but we 'uz back up where that girl's camp is. Do you know where it is up the creek there as you come down here"? I don't guess you do. Q: Interlaken? A: Yeah, we lived right on up the creek there. where I grew up. family. JN That's there was twelve of us in the One died when he was little. Daddy raised eleven of us. Momma 'n Seven girls 'n three boys. Q: When were you born? A: I was born in 1&92. Q: That sounds like a long time to some of us. A: Does sound like a long time to young folks, but it �2. don't seem so long to me. Don't seem like it's been near as long as it has been. Q: So did you always live in this part of the . . .? A: I grew up there 'n then after I got out a school, I left 'n went down to Cherryville, Worth Carolina. I'se engaged to Ed when the war come on. to the war. He volunteered 'n went on. ' /fe went ' 'Tlien I went to Cherryville 'n worked till he came back. Got married, 'n then we"' moved to Virginia. lived in Virginia. We But when we were growing up, we didn't have things like we have now in the mountain. I've helped my Daddy roll logs, 'n if we'd saved our timber till a few years back we'd a been a millionaire. But we just rolled our timber up 'n down in the valley 'n set fire to it when it got dry 'n just burnt it all away up the valley. Q: When you were clearing out the pasture - land? A:,: When we were clearing our land up there, yes. Just had about an acre of clear land when my daddy built the house on the land. a man. He had 57 acres. I worked like Daddy when he'd start to work, he'd say, "Come on, boys. Let's go to work." We didn't have no boys until all the seven girls was grown. we had any boys. Q: And then they had the three boys? Before �3. A: Yes, had three boys. I don't know anything in the world to tell about how I grew up. We just worked for a livin. Q: One of the things I was interested in was whether girls were treated differently than boys when you were growing up. A: Well, not that I know of. Q: Did you go to school just like A: We went to school just like the boys, exactly. 'N we all played together at school. have any colored people. Of course we didn't There's never been any colored people lived right around here. My grand-daddies, on both sides, I guess, had slaves, ya know. stayed with 'em after they was freed. But they They stayed with 'em till they died. Q: They did have slaves. Where did they get their slaves? A: Well, I don't know. I guess they bought 'em. I don't know. Q: Did you ever hear any stories about A: No, I never did hear any stories, but I used to go to my great grand-daddies'. them? I mentioned my �grand-daddy, but they lived with my great grand*-daddy ya know. An old colored man lived there"n an old colored lady was there. We used to love 'em just like we loved the white people. We never thought about pushin 'em around or anything. I mean their children did. But they soon left. There used to be a liauor still just about a half a mile, I guess, from our house. Maybe a mile from our house. People went 'n bought their liouor from the still. It was government still then, ya know. Q: How long did it stay in operation? A: Well it went out 'a operation in a little while after- I must have been about 12 years old when he cult. don't know whether it 'uz outlawed then or not ouit. But he had the still. I why he My daddy used to bring liouor in a peck bucket f n they'd drink it with a dipper. Q: Did your daddy help make it then? A: No, he wouldn't make it at all, but he;d buy it. bought it for a long time. ouit buying it. He got saved though 'n We used to go to parties. People loved each other better then than they do now. they were closer. He Neighbors were closer. I mean �Q: Why do you think that was? A: Well. I don't know why. There's just so much more to be Interested in, I guess, than they was then. But we'd maybe all the whole family'd go to a neighbor's house. We'd play games that night till midnight and come home and go to bed. Sometimes we'd go to one of the homes 'n have a da,nce. daddy played. My granddaddy played the violin 'n my daddy played the banjo. nicked the banjo too. Q: My One a my neighbors We had plenty of music. Would all the little children 'n everything join in? A: Yeah, they'd go with us. Well, everybody'd just have a good time. Q: What kind of games did you play? A: Well- we just played dancing games. partner, ya know. a Dartner. Steal your We'd get in .the corners 'n get And we wanted another partner we'd dance over to this one 'n take it away from that one. it 'uz really fun. Oh (laughter) Q: Did the girls steal partners from the . . . .? A: Yeah, the girls would steal the boy 'n the boys the �6. girls, ya see. Q: That could get pretty wild. A: Then we'd go back to our corner, but by the time we got back somebody 'ud be stealin our partner again. That's really a game that's fun. of the time. We had to work. We worked most Not many of the girls in our community had to work like we did in our family 'cause we didn't have no boys. just like boys. We had to work But we got along good. We all loved each other 'n love each other right on. One brother died when he was thirty-some years old. And he's the only one of the family that's died. Q: Do the rest of them still live around here? A: No. I'm the only one that lives in this community. They're scattered. Some of 'em live in Gaston County 'n some in Avery County. Q: When you were going to school or when you were growin up were you taught that women had a certain place in life? A: No. Never heard tell of such a thing.(laughter) Q: Really? Did you have any kind of ambition of what you wanted to do with your life? �7 A: Oh, I wanted to be a nurse. be a nurse. All my life I wanted to But we didn't have money enough, and we's back in the sticks n I couldn't start out here on a wagon or a. buggy to go to Winston or Charlotte or somewhere to get a job. I didn't go. But they got the college at Boone "n a lot of our people went to school and got a good education. I went to a church school over at Valle Crucis. Q: Well that was ouite a trip, wasn't it? Did you live over there? A: No, We went in a steer wagon over there one time. When we got over there, we had a good time. But my sister, (she went with me), she got homesick she ran a.way 'n come home. . years there. I liked it. I stayed three It was an industrial school, ya know. They taught us to do everything. Taught us to make walks around the houses, the school rooms, from one dormitory to the other. They just taught us how to do lots of things that workin people had to do. I learned a lot. didn't learn too much in books. I don't guess. Q: How old were you when you went to school over there? A: I'se 16. �Q: And how long did you stay? A: I stayed 3 years. Q: And so that was really kind of like a college. I mean it was after your regular schools. A: Yes. Q: Where there boys and girls together? A: Yes, no, they just kept girls. school. It 'uz a girls But they had day students that came in. They had boys in the day school. There wasn't no boys that board there. Q: Did they teach you anything about nursing? A: They taught us first aid, 'n things like that. About what they teach in the elementary school now They taught us how to sew, how to embroider, how to keep a clean house. 'N it don't look like I learned much, does it?(laughter) Q: Well did you date fellows when you were in school over there? A: Yeah. Every/time a fellow 'ud come 'n wanna date us we'd date 'em. in a while. We didn't get to date only just onc>e We'd have from seven o'clock till nine �9 of the evening to entertain our boy friends. Our boyfriends could come see us of the day and we'd go take a walk. a. buggy. We didn't have nothing to ride in. but We'd take a buggy ride once in a while. Wadn't no cars then. Just about the year I guess that I left, why cars began to pass. Q: I wanted to ask you your opinion on some things and then I'd like to talk to you some more about your past. Well, maybe I'll ask you this first. How long did you and Reverend Ed court before you were married? A: Eleven years. Q: Eleven? A: That's the reason he's all the time telling us we My Lord. got no business a being in a hurry. Q: Did y'all live in the same community? A: Yes. Just about two and a half miles from here to my house. Q: How old were you when you got married? A: Twenty-five. Q: Was there any special reason why you waited so long? A: Well I didn't wanna get married 'n I don't guess he did. He must not because he went - a.fter we �1Q were engaged we were to be married. Well, we hadn't set any date when he volunteered for the army. 'N he changed his mind when he went - or he tells that. He stayed over in France 'n he got to be an alcoholic. He was a drunkard, he wasn't an alcoholic, but he drank. 'N he liked it so good over there - those girls, ya know, those pretty French girls - he thought he wanted to live there forever. He tells that tale now. When he got dis- charged, he wanted to come home, ya know. knew he wouldn't a gonna be happy. But he That he 'uz goin back over there just as quick as - I don't know, 3 months I guess, leave they got - discharged 'n then if they'd re-enlist before they came out that they could have that long a time to go back. aimed to go back he said. He But I was at Cherryville when he came home 'n he wrote me a card from New York - he knew I was at Cherryville - 'n told me to be at home 'n what time he'd be at home, ya know. I wrote 'n told him that I'd not be at home, I wasn't gonna hunt him up. wanted to come. He could come after me if he So I just stayed down there. So he did, quick as he got home - he spent one night at home 'n here he come on down there. married down there. We got �133. Q: Very shortly after that? A: The very next day after he come home. Q: The next day? A: The next day after he come out a the war. Q: And he never did get back to France? A: No. He didn't go back." He said after he seen me he *uz contented to stay with me. up in the pulpit. He tells that He preaches to these men, ya know, about treatin their wives right, about lovin their wiy.es. 'N he tells 'em if they love'em like they ought to t.hat. , «n then he tells that, ya know, how when he saw me, he didn't wanna go back to France. But that 'uz just a tale he told. So we moved from here then after we got married. We moved to West Virginia, but he was sick with T.B. when they discharged him from the army. I guess we lived in Virginia two years "n he had to quit work there. The doctors told him to go out in the open 'n fish 'n hunt 'n rest. Q: Is that when he went in the Baptist Hospital? A: No. He's sick. in the Veteran's Hospital a year. He stayed A year and four days, I think, that he'uz in the Veteran's Hospital before they discharged him. touch of it since. But he's n^ver had a �12. Q: When you all got married did you kinda divide up the chores? A: Well, I helped him do everything that he had to do 'n he helped me. wash dishes. He helped me do everything except He didn't wanna wash disheis 'n he don't yet hardly. He'll pile the dished up to the top of the sink 'fore he'll wash 'em. (laughter) Q: What are some of the things that he helped ya do? A: .Things he helped me do? Well, he'd make up our bed every mornin when we got up 'n always made the fires n 1 started the stove to cook. He swept the livin room 'n the kitchen 'n the dinin room nearly everytime. He's always helped me. field with him. 'N then I'd go to the When we got our work done here I'd go and help set out cabbage. Q: So he'd help you get everything done and then you all would go together. A: Yes. If we had to make a fence why I'd go with him 'n make a fence. Q: That must have been wonderful to be together like that. A: It was wonderful. We've had a wonderful life, 'n we didn't either one kill ourself with work. �13. Q: Were you raised to believe that you should share all your tasks? A: Sure. My mother always did it. Q: Your mother and father used to work together like that? A: Yes. Well, my daddy, I don't guess he ever washed the dishes even when Mama was in the bed. help her do anything of her work. He never did But I was the oldest child of the twelve 'n I had a lot 'a that to do. They were married in 1$90. Maybe a year later. I was born in 1$92. Q: Was your husband raised in a different kind of family where the husband did help his wife in the home? I mean did his ma and daddy do like you all? A: I don't know. Ed's mother never worked out anywhere, done any 'a his work except milk the cows. had four or five cows to milk. They always She always helped him milk the cows. Q: Well don't you think that helps people stay close together when they work together like that? A: Sure. This here woman a goin this way to work 'n man a goin that way to work, comin in 'n the woman give tee totally out when she comes in. Why, my gosh. see how people take it. (laughter) I don't �14. Q: Well, you're describing me. I don't know how they do either. A: No. I don't see how they - I think they get farther 'n farther apart. We have to counsel with people - just everyday or two we have people comin. The man or the woman one- or the children a comin to us 'n tellin us they just can't make it any longer the way they do. The husband will come 'n the wife's come in before him maybe 'n dressed again'n gone somewhere with the children. 'N the man comes in - Well, I went the other day, they called us to come to a home 'n when we got there the man was sittin there eatin some applesauce 'n bread, I reckon - no cookie, it 'uz a Graham cracker. he had for supper. for supper. Now that's what He told me that 'uz what he had They don't have any home life. think the place for women is in the home. I I know - in a few cases, I think, it'd be all right for the woman to work - where the husband 'uz dead or an invalid or somethin. Maybe he wasn't quite an invalid, but he 'uz able to take care of the children while she worked, 'n they could get along 'n love each c.ther like they ought to. ya, it's destroyin the world. People tell me they can't live without they all work. enough. But, I tell Can't make �.15, (At this point on the tape, Mr. Blackburn comes into the room and makes a comment about working in the mines.) Q: Did you work in the mines? A: I used to. Q: Where did you work? A: Oh, Kentucky 'n Virginia, West Virginia. Q: Did you really? A: I did for years. Q: Where in Kentucky and Virginia? A: At Jenkins. Q: Well I've got to talk to you^.about that .sometime because I've got<friends over in Pippa Passes, which is in Knott County, pretty close to Jenkins. A: Yeah. Jenkins is in Letcher County. Q: When were you workin in the mines? A: Oh, I've forgotten, honey. It's been so long. (Mrs. B.) He went to the mines when we got married That's where we bought our home in Virginia. Coeburn, Virginia. �16, Q: Oh, you worked in Coeburn then? A: Yes, we bought our home there'n lived there till we had 2 children. Q: I'd really like to talk to y'all about this. point, a neighbor arrives. (At this Several minutes of the tape is conversation between the Blackburns and their neighbor. Comment is made about A.S.U.) (Mr.) I used to sell meal to the college at Boone. Q: Did you grind the meal? A: (Mre)' I did grind it. Bought the corn-big trailer loads-'n ground it 'n sold it to 'em. I'd go up 'n sell 'em meal 'n eat dinner with 'em. Q: Where was your mill? A: It was over at Todd. Todd used to be a big place. Railroads 'n banks 'n drug stores. (Mrs.) Washed away. (Mr.) Used to be a railroad in here, darlin. Q: Is that what brought in the drug A: That's what brought it in. here. stores and banks? We had numbers of stores It's what broke us up. Come in 'n hauled everything off we had 'n left us sittin high 'n dry. Q: What did they haul off? �17, A: Lumber, all of our fine lumber. (Mrs.) Tannin bark, stove wood . . . . (Mr.) Yeah, everything we had. Left us sittin dry. (Mrs.) Came in on us like the mining business, Q: Did ya not get fair prices? A: (Mr.) Yeah, I guess. No, not fair. dollar meant something then. But you know a Now we get eighteen, twenty, twenty-two dollars a day for workin. We worked ten hours 'n got a dollar 'n a half. 150 an hour. Q: Did you have the great big old trees? A: (Mrs.) Oh mercy. (Mr.) Four foot through, darlin. around. 'N twelve foot Oh, chestnuts, ya know, in piles. Big, brown chestnuts. Q: Chestnuts would grow that big? A: (Mr.) Oh, yes ma'am. Four foot across 'em. I can take ya up here on our land and show ya chestnut stumps that's four feet across. Couldn't saw 'em. The saw 'uz so big they'd have to saw down this way 'n turn 'em in. Honey, ya can't understand. (Mrs.) Alec, his daddy, 'ud be a millionaire if he had that timber to sell now, that he sold off 'a this place here. �18. Q: Do you know the name of the company or companies? A: (Mr.) It was the J. Walter Wright Lumber Company in Mountain City, Tennessee. In Bristol, really. they was other companies in here. bought a lot of the lumber. an individual. any company. 'N Mr. Charlie Steele He's from Lenoir. He's just So far as I know he didn't go by He just went by his own personal name, but he bought lots 'a timber. Q: Well now, when was this? A: Oh, I don't know. in In '24 (Neighbor) Train come up here 1916. Q: And when did it go out? A: (Neighbor) Did it go out in '36? (Mr.) I don't know. (Neighbor) Wasn't it 20 years it 'uz supposed to run? Q: So it went through part of the Depression then, didn't it? It kept running? A: (Mrs.) Yes. Q: Well what did they use the wood for? A: (Mr.) No. Do you know? They'd extract, make tanning acid. Took it over here to Damascus 'n ground it up 'n made acid out of it. Make moccasins . . . . �19. (Mrs.) Take cowhides 'n all kind 'a hides 'n made shoes. We could 'a been rich in this country if we hadn't loved our dirt so good we wouldn't sell nobody an acre of it. SIDE II Q: Would you have wanted the furniture factories here? A: (Mr.) Yeah, I guess I would have wanted 'em in them days 'n would 'a still would, I guess. Q: Would you want to give up you land? A: (Mr.) No. I wouldn't give 'em a inch. I guess. the way it is. (Mrs.) That's That's the way everybody felt about it. Q: I get so concerned. I guess particularly since I never had a place, and to be able to see this land and to see it going. A: (Mr.) You love it, honey? Q: Oh, yes. The fact that it's all being built on, and bulldozed down. A: Once its gone, its gone. (Mr.) It's gone forever, little girl. Mama 'n me 'uz trying to keep our little piiot here for our children. We got five children. We just got 27 acres, but we hope we can keep it. �20., (Mrs.) so what? Q: Are all your children still around here? A: (Mrs.) No. One of 'em lives in Ashe County. One lives in Abingdon, Virginia; one in Virginia Beach, Virginia; one in Moorestown, New Jersey; and one in Cherryville. Q: Do they feel about land like you do? A: (Mr.) Feel worse than we do. (Mrs.) Law, they're worse than us about this mountain land. (Mr.) I told my little daughter, I said,"I can sell our land now 'n divide upp the money 'n Ma 'n me go to the rest home." 'N our little daughter 'said, "Not a spoonful 'a mine ' 1 be sold." 1 Didn't wanna sell a spoonful. Q: So they hope to come back here? A: They're plannin on comin back. Our little boy- lives in Virginia Beach- he'll soon be retirin. He's a printer for the United States government. 'N we've got a little boy in Cherryville. for Carolina Freight. He drives He hadn't got many more years 'n he wants to come back. They wanna come back now. 'N our little daughter in New Jtersey -she's a librarian. She's got a model librarian/ I don't know what -" you'd call it' where teahcers come in. She teaches �21, them. 'N our little daughter in Ashe Gounry -she married a sanitarian -she teaches school. Ma 'n me's SO years old, 'n I'm a preacher 'n she's my helper. Q: Well that's what we were talkin about. I thought it was so wonderful the way she said you all did things together here in the house then you would go out 'n work together. A: She asked me what I thought - if back when we were young 'n able to work - what I thought about the people that leave home goin off to work, women out 'a the home again to work. I told her it had ruined the country. It has. (Mr.) If they'd come home 'n stay at home I'd get me a job. (Mrs.) You've got a job. One that keeps ya busy 24 hours a day. That's the truth. (Neighbor leaves) Q: Let me ask you something that you do know a lot about, and that's raising children. you're a good mother? How do you know when What do you think it takes to be a good mother? A: (Mrs) Well, I couldn't tell you that. I've never been one. (laughter) Q: How do you know if you're raising your children right? �22. A: (Mrs.) Well, ya don't. (Mr.) That's easy. 'em. Get the Book 'n read the Bible to Ya don't know if they'll take it, but that's the way we raised ours. Niarly every night, read the Bible 'n prayed with 'em, put 'em to bed. 'N God sent 'em all out to good jobs. fine people. All All have good jobs 'n all Christian people. At home they'll pray with us. (Mrs.) I had to paddle some of 'em pretty much. didn't never do Ben any good. I had to use a good switbh on him. He'd do anything in the world. psychology on that fellow. wife has to. Spanking You had to use 'N you have to now. His I'd give him a whippin, but I can see now if 'a had time to have been reasonable, 'n reasoned with him 'n let him understood what it meant to be a doin that, why I think I could 'a done more with him. But when I'd get through whippin him he'd say, "Now go to the church 'n shout tonight!" Lots of others would 'a thought 'Law, I've plum ruined him now. I know I've ruined him.' 'N I'd say, "Well honey, I'll have to because I know that I've done my duty." 'N that'd settle him down. Q: Well do people raise children differently today? A: (Mrs.) Well, the children raise their parents now, the way I see it. �23, Q: What do you mean by that? A: (Mrs.) Well, they just do what the children say. (Mr*) Ma 'n me 'uz the boss among our babies till they's married. Sweethearts 'ud come here 'n I'd say, "You boys goin to church? church. We're goin to You can go to church or sit here till we get back. My girls is a goin to church this mornin." 'N they'd usually go. big jobs. Now they're nice men with One of 'ems worth a million dollars 'n come 'n hear me preach. a fine job. 'N the other un's got 'N the other 'uns a aeronautical engineer for the United Stated government. Q: Really? One of your boys? A: No. One of my son-in-laws. Honey, we raised 'em — we's just Christians 'n we just worked with'em 'n told 'em what they ought to do 'n we prayed with 'em three times a day. They got along good. trouble with the law. No Married lovely girls. Look's like God's made 'em rich. Q: Did you take them with you? A: I took 'em to.church. I didn't send 'em. Thank God, I'd gather 'em up 'n take 'em. Q: I mean, did you take them with you when you were working? �24. A: (Mr.) Go on preaching tours? Kept 'em 'n bedded era down, honey, on the church bench. (Mrs.) Gene says he's raised under a church bench. (Laughter) (Mr.) We took 'em, darlin. Just - (Mrs.) It 'uz a good place to raise 'em. (Mr.) We took our babies to church, 'n they honor us for it now. Q: Well were there certain things that you felt like were your duty, and certain things that you felt like were yours in raising the children? A: (Mr.) Yeah. I felt like it was our duty to raise 'em so they could (Mrs.) Well, I never criticized Daddy if he corrected 'em and he never criticized me, either. 'N I never did threaten 'em with their daddy, like a lot 'a people did. A lot 'a people did in my time, when they's rearin their children, they'd threaten 'em to tell their daddy when he come home what they'd been a doin or how they'd done. I never did do that. I never would. Children have to have a boss, 'cause when you get out in the world you're gonna have a boss or you're gonna have your own business 'n ya have to control yourself with that. 'N if you never learn to ."abide by rules, it's hard to teach people when they get grown to abide by certain regulations. My daddy taught me that. thought he's awful rough on us, but he 'uz a pretty We �25, good daddy. He didn't abuse us a tall or in any way, but he laid the law down. He meant what he said 'n we just learned that he meant what he said. I've often said that that's how I learned to trust the Lord 'n obey the Lord. 'Cause the Lord's supposed to talk to you, ya know, lead you, and I had learned obedience at home. If you learn to obey when you're young, it's not hard to do when you get old, when you're grown. Q: That's right. A: (Mrs.) A lot 'a children now never learned obedience. (Mr.) Ollie's brother-a little boy about 9 years old - his daddy told him to do something fn upset 'n he went out 'n slammed the door. said,"Jim, come back in. door." it kindly 'N his father Now go out 'n shut the Jim went out again 'n slammed the door again. 'N he made come back 'n open the door 'n close it 7 times, till he learned to close it nice 'n mild. Seven times, closed it so nice 'n sensible. God. Thank Made him come back 'n close it 7 times before he ever got it settled down, (laughter) (Mrs.) He hadn't forgotten it yet. (Mr.) No. He'll all the time close the door nice. (laughter) I .heard somebody preachin that. Didn't you Ollie, the other night? (Mrs.) Yeah, just somewhere. (Mr.) Yeah, learnin how to close the door. thought about that. 'N I �26. (Mrs.) Said it's your personality, ya know, by the way you closed the door. (Mr.) 'N that lady said- she visited homes, ya know, that she wasn't wanted by the way they shut the door. Q: A lot of these questions that I wanted to ask you I almost know the answers to from talking to ya'll. One that I was kind of interested in was what was the most important thing that you remember your mother teaching you? Is there anything that she taught you that really helped you, you know, in your life? A: (Mrs.) Yes, it wouldn't mean nothin to anybody else, but Mama believed in bein born again, of the Spirit. 'N she believed with all her heart that ya had to be born again, 'n so when I started off to school- well, when I was gettin ready to go - I hadn't never been born again. 'N she says, "Children, I don't want 'cha to go over there till ya get saved. saved 'n know the Lord before ya go." I want cha to be 'N she said, "I'm afraid, if you's to go over there, they'd get ya in that church that don't believe in bein born again." That 'uz the Episcopal church. remembered that. And, so I always She never taught us much about religion, but she was interested. �27. Q: What did she mean by being born again? A: (Mrs.) That's committing yourself to the Saviour, accepting his salvation , 'n knowing that you have accepted it, because that's what we have to do. Jesus come to redeem, so we have to accept that salvation 'n I hadn't never accepted it, 'n didn't know for myself that Jesus died for me, ya see. 'N when I realized that I'se lost because I hadn't never accepted the salvation he made for us. 'N that's what she was afraid of. She was afraid that I'd go on all my life, ya know, like a lot 'a people do, 'n think because they join the church they're saved. 'N that's what I mean by bein born again. Daddy might could explain it better. (Mr.) No, I couldn't. Lord, honey. know. Becoming a new creature in the That's it. Dangerous drunkard. mines. I used to be a drunkard! ya Carried liquor in the It's a miracle of God I didn't blow 'em square Q: Did you really? A: (Mr.) Sure, in the place 'a takin water I'd take in liquor. The night boss didn't know it, ya know. We all took water, ya know, in the bottom of our buckets. it. Had to. It 'uz the only place we could get 'N I'd take liquor in the place of water. in there all day, three miles underground. Worked �ad. I crimped 10 thousand dynamite caps. Stick 'em on the end 'n fuse em. 'N if I'd a missed a thousandeth part of an inch I'd a blown my head off. (Mrs.) Ya ought 'a known better than that. (Mr.) I'se careless. Q: I want to come back and talk to you about your experiences in the mines. I've got a whole lot 'a questions I've been wanting to ask somebody. A: (Mr.) Bless ya, honey. I'se young, ya know, 'n God wouldn't bother me to preach I'd go back.I love to work in the mines. interesting things in there. Oh, there's so many Find anything on earth you's looking for. Picture of anything you'd want. Oh trees 'n all kinds of plants, 'n just anything. Animals, 'n bears, find a lot of bears. 'N all kinds of little trees 'n beautiful ferns in the top, ya know. And oh just anything, (Mrs.) 'N that coal. (Mrs.) You come back anytime ya wanna come back little darlin, but let me tell ya somethin. You can find so many nice people that can tell ya so many more things than Uncle Ed can, 'n you'd better go'n see them. I can just tell ya about how mean I used to be, 'n how I game to the Lor$. And instantly �29. he took all this drinkin 'n all this cursin away from me, 'n I became a new creature. 'N from that day till this its never come back on me. a soldier of God ever since. 'n used to be a curser. Used to be a drunkard That's all I done. do somethin nice for ya. made me a new creature. I been Thank God. The bfoange Old things passed away, 'n behold, all things became newt what little Ma means about bein born again. (Mrs.) That's what Mama meant. That's I guess. (Mr.) What we done now, little darlin - anybody will do for a Christian 'n anybody can be a Christian if they will be. But we got to get started to be a Christian. Tore God ' 1 ever take us to heaven. 1 You've got to meet the Lord for yourself, 'n when you meet him you'll always be a different creature. Bless ya. You've done met him as far I know. Q: Yeah. A: (Mr.)'Bless ya. Come back any time you want to. (Prayer) Father in heaven, we're shocked to find this\Little girl, Mrs. Lamm, a little darlin. Itttle enough to be in high school. Just And little Alec, our little boy, was here. And they said they's interested in comin back 'n talkin to us. Oh Father, if they ever come back to our house again �30. may they feel just like coming home. come to Uncle Ed fn When they Aunt Ollie*s house, may it seem so good and so restful that they just felt like God had taken 'em in, 'n they had a home away from home. Bless us all, 'n help us to be good 'n nice 'n quiet 'n sensible. Always minding our own business. Always looking for some place to help somebody who needs help. Always kind, always gentle, always willin to go the second mile, always willin to turn the other cheek when men don't like us, not pick it up 'n turn it over again, just leave 'em alone, 'n love 'em so good we'll kill 'em on pure love. Bless little Alec 'n his darlin daddy 'n mamma, this little girl's husband 'n what she does in life. Make her great, God. In Jesus' name help her to see that her 'n God can do anything they want, God. Thank God. Help 'em to see how big God is 'n what He'll do for us if we'll just trust Him, in all of our paths. We send 'em away today with the blessings of the Lord on 'em. Amen 'n amen. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ollie Blackburn, March 9, 1973 Description An account of the resource Ollie Blackburn was born in Watauga County, North Carolina in 1892. She attended an all girls church school in Valle Crucis when she was 16, after she had a general education. She then lived in Cherryville, North Carolina and Coeburn, Virginia at one point. Mrs. Blackburn explains doing chores around the house and the different activities her family would participate in as a child. She then describes her education and how she met her husband through courting. Mrs. Blackburn's husband is also in the interview, and they about how they got married and moved to different places. While talking about marriage, they explain their theories on raising a family. Mr. Blackburn ends the interview talking discussing his personal experience working in the mines in Kentucky and Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamm, Joy Blackburn, Ollie Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/9/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 30 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape35_OllieBlackburn_1973_03_09M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Todd, NC Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--19th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Virginia--Social life and customs--20th century Kentucky--Social life and customs--20th century Cherryville Kentucky mining Virginia https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/74f1927f4e7baa04fde1ffc3c674d110.pdf 2cee9b841fba1c3ba7b9ee2453db9121 PDF Text Text Tape # 46 Outline I. Name and birthplace of parents. II. Parents schooling. III. Occupation. IV. Churches in the area. V. Community A. Formation. B. Change. C. Decision makers. D. Minority groups E. Population. VI. Politics A. Change. VII. Transportation A. Layout of roads and railroads B. Building of railroads. C. First cars. VIII. Mountain crafts and customs. A. Courting. IX. Outlaws X. Legends, folktales, supersitions XI. Depression XII. Shull's Mill XIII. Honorary degree of Kentucky Colonel. �This is an interview with Mr. N.D. Shull for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley on March 27, 1973. Q: Could you give me the name and birthplace of your parents? A: Well, my father was born here at Shull's Mill. My mother was born over on Cove Creek. Q: What were their names? A: R. L. was my father's name; Mamie D. Graybeal was my mother's name. Q: Did you have any brothers and sisters? A: None alive. Q: But you did have some? A: Two. Q: What were their names? A: They died when they was small. William, and I forget the other one's name. Q: How much schooling did your parents have? A: I have no idea. Q: What is your occupation? A: Engineer. �3. Q: When you lived in this area, what sorts of churches were here? Have you lived here all your life? A: Well, I was born here and stayed here until I was about 18. Q: What sorts of churches were in this area when you came back, or in the earlier days? A: Well, in the early days the same churches were here except Hebron bought out the Presbyterian Church. The other churches were the same. Q: To which of these churches did most of the people belong? A: Well, they were divided. There was no particular preference. Q: How do you think that they have changed over the years, if any? A: I can't see any change. They still have the same beliefs they had earlier. Q: HOT# did this community get its name? A: Four brothers came over, one of them settled here, had a mill out here on the river, and it was called Shull's Mill. Q: How was it formed in the first place, just because of this mill? that reason? A: That's where it got its name. Q: How do you think the community has changed over the years? For �4. A: It was strictly a rural farming area, and now it's gone into a summer resort area. Q: Who have been the community decision makers? Mainly the Shulls or other people involved also? A: I don't see that there was any one person that was the community decision maker. It was all handled through the individuals that owned the property. They made their own decisions. Q: Are there any minority groups in the community? A: None. Q: Has the population changed greatly in the community? A: Well, since Hound Ears and some of the other resorts being here, of course the population has increased. But if you discount that, the population is about the same as it was when I was growing up. Q: On politics* do you have any memoires of specific elections, local or state? A: When I was growing up, they always had a big fight, and everybody got about half drunk, that's about all I remember. Republicans wouldn't vote a Democrat ticket, or vice versa. Q: How do you think the politics have changed over the years? �5. A: I don't think it's as clean now as it was; it's a dirty bunch of politics, a dirty bunch of politicians. Q: How did the people get around in the community? What sort of transportation did they use? A: Horse, buggy, foot. Q: Where did the roads and the railroads run? A; Well, the railroads ran from Johnson City to Boone, that was Tweetsie. With the exception of this new 105 they built in here a few years ago, the old roads were essentially in the same location, but they weren't hard surface. They were just dirt roads, the first ones, maintained by county labor. Q: When were the railroads built? A: About 1914. Q: Do you remember the first cars in the community? A: Well, my father had about the first car that was right in this community. It was, I believe, a 1914 Ford. That's somewhere around '20 I guess, '18 or '20 when he got it. Q: Do you know very much about the mountain crafts and customs? Soapmaking, curing, weaving, anything like that? A: No. �6. Q: Are there any mountain cures that you are familiar with? A: Well, there's an awful lot of them that people use and talk about, but I'm not familiar with any of them. I believe in a good ol' doctor. Q: How would you compare the courting then and now? Dating back then? A: Well, back then you either walked or rode a horse. You usually stayed at the girl's home, didn't wander around much. Now, I don't do any courting now. Looks to me like they're all over the country. Q: It was more back then, you traveled in groups didn't you? If you went to the girl's house, weren't you more with a group than like now it seems that they're alone so much? A: No, I'd say you were more by yourself back then. Q: I was thinking that maybe a group of them got toether in a horse and buggy, went somewhere, picnicking or something like that? A: Oh, well. When you got together, that's right, on an outing or something, you traveled in groups. When you went courting, you went by yourself. You had no competition or interference. Q: Bedtime was pretty early back then wasn't it? A: They sure was, but getting-up time was a lot earlier. Q: Were there any badmen back in the area during that time? �7. A: Oh, sure. We had a few that were considered a little wild, but I don't imagine they would be considered bad now. Q: No outlaws ? A: Not in this particular section that I know of. Q: Are there any folktales and legends associated with this community, or any superstitions that were maybe passed down from your father or mother? A: There's a lot of tales about how tought living was back then, as far as legends, I don't know . DEPRESSION Q: When did it start as best you can remember? A: Started in the early '30's, maybe '29. Q: How many years did it last? A: Well, I believe you could feel it up until the war started in,the '40's, '41. Course, it wasn't as bad in the latter part of the 30's as it was in the early part. Q: Were you living here at the start of the Depression? A: No. Q: Where were you living then? A: Tennessee. �Q: How many were in your family? A: There was just my mother, my father, and myself. Q: Did anyone else live with you? Any boarders? A: No. Q: What was the effect of the Depression on your family? A: Well, you just didn't have the money t o spend, didn't buy the clothes and food that you normally would. You made do with what you had. Q: How did it effect the working conditions? A: There was no work to be found. Q: Were you working during the Depression? A: No, I was in school when it started. I got out in '32. Q: Did you ever hear of any government projects, WPA, CCC? A: Yes, had WPA here, and CCC camp was not too far from here. It wasn't in Watauga County. Q: What did they do exactly? A: Most of the WPA workers worked on the roads, including the roads, highways; and the CCC Boys were brought in and taught how to survive in the wilderness. They built trails, and I think they grew some timber. �9. Q: When did the welfare program, start? A: Are you still speaking of WPA, CCC. . . ? Q: Yes, something like that. A. Best I recall, it was in the early '30's. Q: Was any of your family affected by those projects? A: No. Q: Was there a scarcity of food? A: Not in this particular section, because as I said before, this was strictly a rural area and all the local families raised their own food. Q: What crops did you raise? A: Oh, outside the gardens which we raised everything we ate, main crops were cabbage and potatoes. Q: Did you have any animals? A: Well, we always kept a cow. I had a pony when I was growing up. dogs, normal animals on a farm. Q: Were prices higher or lower during the Depression.? A: Prices were lower. Cats, �10. Q: Were there any new ways of making money that arose, such as maybe people took up making moonshine, gathering ginseng? A: Well, I don't know if people took it up or not, but that's been going on in this section of the country as far back as I can remember. And it's still going on. Q: Do you remember any of the banks closing? A: I remember when the President closed the banks in order to get them reorganized back then. Q: Do you remember any in this area particularly that closed? A: Well, they were all closed for a few days. Q: What was the community reaction to the banks closing? A: Oh, I guess, it was pretty evenly divided. Some thought it would never open again, and others agreed with the President's idea. Q: What date was it that the banks closed? A: '31, 1931, I'm sure. Q: How was the community affected? Was there any profound effect, or did things stay pretty much the same? A: Things stayed pretty much the same. �11. Q: Was there anyone that you blamed for the collapse of the banks? A: The bank's didn't collapse here. The banks were financially in good shape. And as for other sections of the country, I have no idea, poor management, I guess. Q: Did the schools change during the Depression? A: Yes, they did. We had better buildings, we built some new buildings. Course, I believe we had better schools. Q: How about the churches and businesses, the country stores? A: They was about the same. Q: What do you think caused the Depression? A: Well, looked like the stock market was in pretty bad shape; too many people over bought, caught up with them and from that it snowballed into a very uncomfortable situation. Q: Who was hurt worst by the Depression? A: Small investors. Q: Do you think there was anything particularly good about the Depression days? A: Well, at least during the Depression days a dollar was worth a dollar, and if you wanted somebody to work for you or if you wanted to work for somebody else, you could put out a day's work. All in all, I think our economy �12. was healthier than it is now. Q: How is life different today than from the Depression, such as the family life, education, etc. ? A: Back then, all you had was a newspaper and a radio, and the newspaper got here when the mailman rode his horse. Now, you got television, good automobiles to travel, and naturally you have a little more interest in what is going on. Q: What do you like best about today's way of living? A: Retirement. Q: If you could change anything about the way they are now, what would that be? A: I'm not too fond of these subsidies that the government hands out for not growing some crops. I believe that the old law of supply and demand would help us a lot. Q: What I want to get you to do now is to tell me all about Shull's Mill if you would? The founding. It's effect on the community. The history of it. A: Well, the founding and the effect of the community, I don't know anything about that. My grandfather was the postmaster back in 1879. That's a grant that was given to him. The fact that the railroad came in here, and then Whiting Lumber Co. moved in here, and cut out all the timber on Grandfather. �13. Had a little narrow gauge railroad that went up to Boone's Fork, hauled logs in on that. Plants were just across the river from here. They had quite an operation here. At one time they were here. We had a hospital, summer drug store, a big commissary, theatre, I think it was 500 families. large, or larger than Boone at that particular time. It was Course, after the timber supply was depleted on Grandfather Mountain, they all moved to Butler. Families, of course, migrated out of here. There's very few of them left, in this section now. The older families that were here before the mill, their descendants are here. Q: What was the mill exactly? A: Just a lumber mill. They made lathes, you know wooden lathes, that they used in place of metal lathes. They were strictly a lumber mill. They cut timber in the woods, hauled it in, ran it through the mill. Then they dried it and sized it and shipped it out. Q: Did they ship it all over the United States, or just to North Carolina? A: It was shipped out of here on Tweetsie. After it got to Johnson City, I don't know where it went. Q: What is the Kentucky Colonel over there? I noticed that last time I was in here. A: My wife and I both were appointed Kentucky Colonels a few years ago. �14. Q: What is that exactly? A: It's an honorary appointment that you get from the Governor of Kentucky. Q: What is that for? A: It's just one of those honorary commissions that they give you. Q: You got it from the Governor of Kentucky? How did you manage that? A: Well, it was managed through my sister-in-law. She's the one who had the influence. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with N.D. Shull, March 27, 1973 Description An account of the resource N.D. Shull was born in Shull's Mills, North Carolina and worked as an engineer throughout his life. Mr. Shull and his wife were appointed Kentucky Colonels through the Kentucky governor. Mr. Shull describes his childhood including topics such as church, politics, and transportation, specifically cars and the railroad. Mr. Shull lived in Tennessee with his parents during the Great Depression, and describes what that was like. He also explains the background of Shull's Mill. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brinkley, Bill Shull, N.D. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/27/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape46_NDShull_1973_03_27M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--History automobiles cars Great Depression Kentucky Colonels Politics railroad religion Shull's Mill transportation https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ec25852d7a8f225d472b32edd08d3367.pdf 365dbbafbcecbdc488518900679d1735 PDF Text Text TAPE #44, 45 This is an interview with Bea Hensley and Mike Hensley in Spruce Pine, North Carolina on March 24,1973, by Lester Harmon and Bill Brinkley for the Appalachian Oral History Project. A: Well, we start from scratch every day, what we do, we taper coal or raw coal like this and we've got a "duck's nest", what is called a "duck's nest" in there. It is actually a pot that has holes in the bottom of it, where your air comes up through. Pack that coal down around six inch pipe and then take the pipe out and just put paper down in the hole and then ignite it. Then at the same time you're burning coal, you are making coke. Q: Is this the coke? A: This is the coke and then while you're burning, the coke has a shorter life span than coal does, but yet it'll burn hotter. I can run this fire up to about four thousand degrees, when I want to. Now it doesn't run that hot normally because of the fact that, at four thousand degrees, you could melt a piece of 1-8-1 right quick. So you generally run it around seven, eight hundred, nine hundred, thousand degrees all the time. But the important part about this is your coke. Your coke has all the impurities that the coal has and you've already burned out. Then you get cleaner heat, and especially in making a forge weld, you have to have a clean fire. Then certain things that you do, for instance making this particular twisted handle, well, you have to have a clean fire on that because the ball is forge welded on plus if you had any impurities in the fires, these would have a tendency to stick together, that form separate pieces. That happens to be the hardest thing in black- smithing to do. �Q: Do you use both the ovens? A: Yes, this one's dad's. This is the only time that we work together, when we're going to give a demonstration. my tools. I use my anvil, my forge, my hammers, But if we're going to give a demonstration or anything like that, we use his forges most the time, his anvil, because he's familiar with it. It's to his height, and I can bend over, but he can't stretch. Q:Is this a, this is the original flooring right here, of the old building? A: Yes, no, our old building is up front. We don't have any, this is a brand new building. We've only been in it about three years. at this location for twenty some years. But Dad's been here Then when I went business with him about six years ago, we had to build a new building. The other shop was just a one man shop. We were turning around in each other's way, so we had to eliminate the showroom and things like that, where we had a complete, big display set up and everything. But, actually we got this new building, we'd decided we'd . eliminate the showroom, and everything temporarily. We'll have one one day. But all we have on exhibit is what we make up and are ready to ship out or people going to deliver. are going to come and pick up or we're That's all we have on hand anymore. Q: Are these clay floors? A: Yea, it's red clay. We have it for two reasons. The main reason is because standing all day doesn't hurt you like concrete does. with you. It's a lot more like a cushion. It will give The second reason, a lot of time when we're wanting to cool steel, w e ' r e not wanting to put it in water, such as �the balls on top of andirons. Those are solid, we forge those, and if you put those in water they'll crystallize. They'll become glass hard and you can't drill, you can't do anything with 'em, so we put 'em on the dirt floor to cool. They'll cool a little more rapid than they would on concrete. Q: How much do one of those balls weigh? A: Oh, they don't weigh much. They weigh about three to five pounds, something like that. Q: How long have you been working with your dad? A: I've been in the shop since I was four years old. I kinda grew up in the trade. Q: Pretty well know the business then? A: Well, yes and no. There is still a lot to learn, you learn everything everyday. Because the thing about it is, no two pieces of metal work alike. You have to work each individual piece as an individual piece, because of the fact, that it has hard places in it and soft places in it and throwing the scroll, it may have a, pull a flat spot. You have to know where to take this out. You may have to work a little different on it than you did on the previous piece. Q: You read each piece of metal before you start working with it? A: Well, you don't exactly read it. You read it as you go. You get a piece �4. ' paper and I'll start this fire, and get this made. If it gets above fifty-five or sixty in here, we're just too hot to work. But we do work during the summer time. Q: I bet it gets very hot during the summer. A: Ah, of course we've got the windows open, we got a big fan that we turn on. Q: Now where does that connect to.? A: This comes under the forge and we have a gauge valve on it here that controls the air that comes up into the "duck's nest". Q: Does that smoke cause the yellow smoke? A: No, it's really the paper. When the paper burns out, it should have the coke hot enough to where it'll stay hot the rest of the day. Of course, the coke will burn out, and we have to keep adding coke to it. But, that's the reason that we're making coke at the same time, we tear out and rebuild the fire, as you can see the paper's beginning to burn out now. Q: Do you take part of this coke out and save it? A: We take all of it. We clean the whole "duck's nest". "duck's nest" if you want to see what one looks like. are, here in the center. I ' v e got an empty This is where the holes And then this is where we place the six inch pipe around like this, so it will not, the coal will not cover up the holes. Then you put �5. all the raw coal around this, or the forging coal, and ycu let your two mounds come out on each side. Q: Are those two mounds raw coal? A: Raw coal, and they will t u r n into some coke. Now they don't turn into all coke, but this is mainly to contain the heat from the sides, cause you want your opening clean through so you can slide your piece of metal through, back and forth to keep it pure during what we call a "long feed" on it when you can slide it front and backwards through it. Q: Do you have any of the old bellows, I believe they used? A: No, everytime we wanted to buy a pair, they found out that'we're' blacksmiths and won't sell 'em to us. Well, we're in it to make a living. Someone had to make me a pair. It's pleasure, but still we have to make a living at it, so that's the reason we had to go to the electric blowers. It eliminates all the hand pumping there all day long. Q: Could you kinda talk about the fire a little bit with us? A: Hardly know what to say about the fire. burnt out. It's practically no good. or for working in all day long. Really, this fire now is nearly This is not a real fire for forge welding Now to work big pieces where you were going to forge out a ball like is on the andirons or in something like that, it is a good fire because it's open, and it's out to where you can get down in it because you place the ball right down in it, and you'll run the ball up to �6. to around fifteen hundred degrees, that you run the ball up to. But it's higher than that sometimes, depending on the hardness of the metal that you have. And of course, if once we bring it out, we stick it under the pile hammer, this is the pile hammer over here, but that eliminates me hammering it. But as far as, well, the two mounds like we're telling ya before, contains the heat from the side, so that you'll get more heat. Then this a forging fire instead of a forge welding fire. A forge welding fire wants to be a fire that is brand new with raw coal. Then you burn coke inside of that so that you can eliminate the impurities, you're burning mostly coke then. Now you're burning your coke itself that you're making. Q: That right there's the coke burning itself? A: Right, you can see that outer ridge around here, coke's beginning to burn now, itself instead of makin' coal. Dad wants to go ahead and do it. What we'll do for you here now, if If you'll wait just a minute, we'll fix it up here, and I'll get my hammers and everything and we'll get ready to go. Q: I don't know much about the blacksmith. there? How do you put the metal in I mean you have something you hold it with or.. . ? A: Well, you have tongs you hold it with or you have the pieces long enough, you know, to hold with your hands. Boy, it's chilly out there. Q: Yeah, it is. That blue flame looks like it's getting pretty hot right now. A: Boy, you can melt a piece of steel in there and it don't look like a big �fire, but it's hot. Q: What are you doing that for? A: Really, it's two things; it drys the moisture off the hammer handle so the hammer handle will slide through your hands, then to get it warm. Mostly to get the moisture off it, you don't pay too much attention to the coldness of it. Q: Is there a special reason for getting moisture off? A: Right, you never hold your hammer handle tight, like a carpenter would hold a claw hammer. It has to be able to move in your hand freely, cause a turning scrolls hammering position is a certain position that you have to move your hammer head into, such as, in forging special pieces or a flowering piece, like a fish tail scroll or something like that. You may have to turn your hammer head just a millionth of an inch, so you have to be able to have this hand, your hammer completely under control, but yet, loose in your hand where you can turn it. what makes it so hard to learn. That's the big secret of blacksmithing, that's You can. really get a Ph.D. degree quicker than you can learn blacksmithing. Q: Is that right? Your father taught you how, is that. . . ? A: Right. Dad's the first one in the family. Q: Did you ever have to go to school to pick up any of this. there a subject, are there any courses? I mean, is �.A: No, there's no such thing as a blacksmith school that I know of anywhere, really, in the United States. Now there are schools that teach horse shoeing, but horse shoeing is just a different aspect or a side aspect of real blacksmithing. Let me get this anvil. . . (He hits the anvil. ) Q: We should be getting this on film, too. A: I'm just turning it now. Q: What is the purpose of turning this? A: It becomes a, what we call, all our anvils are bought for their musical quality and for two reasons. One is because you have to live anvil and a live anvil is this. (He plays the anvil) And when you can hear that particular sound like that out of an anvil, means that for every hundred pounds that you hit down, it'll hit back that many hundred pounds. Another thing, you don't have to pick your hammer up. It'll pick up your hammer for you. But a dead anvil, or an anvil that's fastened completely down, you have to pick up your hammer and it won't hit back. This one, in working on it, you can, in other words, you can hit a few pounds less and do the same thing with it, whereas you might have to hit a whole lot harder on a dead anvil. Plus the fact that the thing that Dad and I do together, the language that we do together, we have to have it, because you go a lot by sound; you go a lot by the positioning of the hammer, not only from the aspect of the master's point of view, but from the apprentice's point of view, because the metal will change sounds and in the anvil, plus in the position of your hammer. The �colder it gets the deader the sound, I mean the live the sound, because the steel's more mellow when it's hot. Just about two seconds, if I can get a piece of chalk. Q: What's the purpose of the chalk? A: It eliminates moisture from your hands, so you, that you can slide. If you want to move right there you can see a lot better. Cause I'm going to be standing in your light. HE PLAYS THE ANVILS PLAYS THEM HE AND HIS FATHER Q: Gosh, I have never seen anything like that in my life! ! A: I would have done it longer, but it's cold this morning and I'm not warmed up yet. Q: That's almost unreal! That is really fantastic! I just can't believe that! That is really great! A: What this is, it's really a language. We'll have to go through it again. What it is, he's the master and I would be considered the apprentice on this side of the anvil. So what he is doing, he's telling me exactly what to do. Then after, well, as long as he's playing on the face of the anvil, I can work either side of the metal that I want to. And also, I'm doing it right. Then when he goes off and hits the heel, that's telling me to work on this side alone. And once he hits that heel and how hard he hits that heel's how hard �10. I work this. The position, whether he hits it back or front, tells me to work high or low on it. Then when he switches over to the horn, that tells me to work on this side alone. this side. How hard he hits the horn, is how hard I work on And then whether he hits the front or back of the horn, tells me to work high or low on it. Then when he reaches his hammer in there and taps a spot, he's telling me one specific spot to hit, because of the two different view points of light that you have. Then he'll tell also how hard to hit that spot with that hammer lick. And then when he comes over here, which we didn't get a chance to really do on account of arm cramping on me, he hits the horn back and forth, back and forth on it, that tells me to draw the piece of metal longer. to it. Every sound or every position that hammer has a meaning You spend four years on this side of the anvil and doing nothing but this, but you work the complete face and horn of the anvil. Then once you do that, you switch to the other side of the anvil and work six years with the master on the same anvil. Then after you do that, you go to another separate anvil, in the same shop, and work four more years before you get your master's license. So you have fourteen years all to it. Q: You do have a master's license? A: No, there's no such thing today as this, because we have eliminated a few of the good things from the past, from the apprentice, and fellow craftsmen; master programs that we used to have. is how I learn blacksmithing. But this is. old country doctrine. This Then we can trace this particular language back to the building of King Solomon's temple. And it's one of the oldest unwritten languages �11. on earth. And there's no way to write it down, because after spending four years on the apprentice side of the anvil, you know exactly how to turn your hammer. How to shape a piece of steel, generally. Now after you shape that piece of steel, generally you switch to the other side. And then you start in your finer details; how to draw, how to make scrolls and make roses and leaves of all types, clusters of berries, and things like this. Some of the old techniques that they really had down to a fine art. you go to your anvil and you create your own designs. Then after that, Then once you've done that, you can go into competition or go into partnership with whoever you want to. The only reason that we really don't have any recorded blacksmiths during the Renaissance Period andup through that section is because there was one practically on every street corner, plus the fact that the apprentice are, after he once got his master's license, he might like to make knives better than he did wrought iron work, so he went into the cutlery/ business, which is a phase of blacksmithing. he likes to do wrought iron work. One might like to shoe horses better than Once he does that, he's afarrier. And then another man might want to be an armorer which was a phase of blacksmithing. Another might like to make guns better than anything else, so that was the gun smith. All these were phases of blacksmithing. Even your coppersmiths, your silversmiths, people like this were all out of the traditional blacksmithing field, because the blacksmith generally made andirons fire sets, screens, chandeliers, and all types of railings, gates, things like this. Of course, today we have brought the blacksmith down to the �12. horse shoer today, but really he's the farrier. Then of course, you have your wheel wright which is another aspect of blacksmithing; that goes to your covered wagon days. I don't know too much about wheel wright, but Dad can do the wagon wheels and all the wheel wright work. And we have a lot of the wheel wright tools, but not all of them. But he likes the artistic views of blacksmithing, because you just don't go down the road everyday repairing wagons. We could have a good business shoeing horses and you could make a good living at shoeing horses. But still it's hard on the back; it's hard on the liver. Q: Hard on the liver? A: Yes, you stay in a bent over position all day like that. You're down like this and then wait til you get your leg ripped up or something like that with a horse shoe nail, or get kicked, or something like that. serious by shoeing horses. You can get hurt real There's good money in it. Q: Do you have any ideas how many different types of blacksmiths there are today? A: No, not really. Because a little bit of, like I said gun smiths, a lot of it is eliminated due to the machine age. your wheel wright. We have no more call for it such as Now a gunsmith, even though he is a modern gunsmith and he's got his lathes and everything, but it's not really the blacksmithing type that he once was in the muzzleloader days when he made the barrels, and the locks, forged the trigger guards, and the triggers, and trigger sets and all the gun springs and everything. The closest that you have to a �13 specialized blacksmith now-a-days are your knife makers, throughout the United States and very few of those do forge work on 'em. Most of 'em grind 'em out, and then they have a pryometer furnace that they can heat treat 'em in. They do not do the hand tempering or anything like that. getting away from the blacksmithing aspect. So, they're Your coppersmiths and your silversmiths, they've gone to your dyes and your molds, things like this. And a lot of them are eliminated, even though there are some excellent silversmith craftsmen, still left in the United States, they've gone a lot into production work. A lot of it is cast silver, which it's, you have to have a mold and sand and things like this. form at one time of blacksmithing. And even foundry work today was a But that's where you have to carve a mold and do a deal with sand and melt your metal, and pour it in, which a lot of schools are teaching in a small way, in your industrial arts and things like that. Q: Your father was the first blacksmith in the family? A: Yes, my grandfather was a Baptist minister. Q: Is that right? Mr. Hensley, how did you learn this art? A: Born that-a-way. You can't help it when you're born into it. Q: You just took right off into it? A: I'll forge a little piece here for ya, let ya see how it's done. I gotta bend down here and work in that water and that. . �14. Q: Do you think there has been any kind of revival of interest in this sorta thing? Are there more people beginning to do it, or is it dying out? A: It might be a little bit, but nobo dy won't do it. You don't have to worry • \t people, you know, a-do Our's is rough. Too many things involved. You've got to be able to run a business to begin with. And takes TOO LONG TO LEARN IT. Most people want to do something they can learn in six weeks, so he ain't going to do this. Then equipment's hard to get. You either have to make it or pick up used, because you see, Champion and Forger Company, a lot of these big companies, they don't ev^n raak§ equipment you need anymore. For instance, that power hammer right there, you couldn't, unless you could find one of those used in a place, well, you wouldn't be able to buy it. Q: Could you make that? A: I could make one, yeah. anvil before you can use that. in it. But that one, you gotta be able to do it on the So it's, there'll never be much competition Now there might be alot of welding shops of that nature. A: Another aspect of it is the fact that everything that is expected to be learned in six weeks or eight weeks or something like that, they try to teach short courses in, try to teach everything in six or eight weeks which you cannot learn. I've been at it now twenty-two years and there's a lot of it that I still don't know. And you, like I was saying to begin with, you learn everyday, cause no two pieces of metal work the same. You have to have �15. that knowledge of how to eliminate the hard places in the piece of steel and make it work the way you want it to work instead of it working you. And people are just not willing to set down. We just got too fast a society today, to want to get inthere and get things done and get it over with or make a die to stamp our a hundred of these. smithing. That's the reason we stay in custom black- Because you don't find any two fireplaces hardly the same size, and you have to proportion everything. The main thing in blacksmithing, irregardless of anything else, you have to see the finished product before you can even start making it. And that's within your mind's eye. You cannot set down and draw it out. You cannot set down and figure it out on a piece of paper, because of the fact you may have to make one set of andirons, for instance, forty-eight inches high. The next pattern you might make exactly like it.. (End of Side 1) Q: This one right here? A: That's one of the machines right there. Q: What is that? A: (Mike) A power hammer, run off of air, electricity or a motor. (Bea) If you bought it, it would take you, of course, now to me, all this stuff comes to me. It doesn't bother me. I can walk out here to look at a machine that I've never seen, turn the switch on it, and I've figured it out in a few minutes just exactly what it makes. I mean, it's no problem. You go to a, Mike can tell you, it's not peanuts to learn to use one. �16. (Mike) No, it's not, because of the fact you have to learn to hand hammer before you can ever. . . (Bea) I'll show you something. show you. I'll do something right here real simple to That looks pretty simple, but I hired twenty-seven people one year; I got one man that could bend the eye, out of twenty-seven. beat that all to pieces trying to get that around there. They'll If I was going to make them, I'd make a little machine to make it, but I could make it quicker. But I could make a machine, that I could make them just (he makes machine sounds) as fast as you can do that, or just as fast as you could press the trigger. That's the reason nobody does it this way. But if somebody come in here and say I want an eye holed banker out there in the gravel, we got to pull x number of tons or we're going to anchor it here on a, in a mine, or put a cable for a car to pull in a certain way, well, then you got to hand make that, cause there's no machine to make it. But if you're going to do this, get that little old machine there, how is makes it, there's nothing to it. (Mike) See, everything we do is free hand. We have no gizmos or anything like that to go by. on the anvil. We do everything just by free, everything's made right Only reason that we have the power hammers or anything like that is eliminating me from hammering that I was doing there a few minutes ago. Because you have what is called a striper, that if you make an anvil or anything like that, you have to have a striper. See now, as he's doing this with the pwer hammer, I would have to be doing that on the anvil. So that eliminates one aspect of my work that I would have to come and help him with. Whereas you can control that, just like you can a hand hammer. But �17. it's harder to learn to control that, than It is to do this there on the anvil. Q: You said this language ya know wasn't written down. What did you do, pass it down by word of mouth? A: (Mike) It's passed down from generation to generation, from master to apprentice, right on down through the ages. Now the way that Dad, well actually Dad didn't learn it. He was shown it. Daniel Boone VI, whom he worked with. . . Q: Taught your father? A: (Mike) Taught Dad this particular language. And he's the sixth generation of the original Daniel Boone. And the original Daniel Boone was a blacksmith and a gunsmith. The best parts of Daniel Boone was not wrote down in history. . He and his father play the anvils, again Q: That was good. Ya'll oughta get, like he's on his anvil and maybe you're on yours, you get to mess around, playing tunes back and forth to each other. A: We do. That particular part of it, the tune is a useful aspect, even though as Dad says, it adds a little flavor to it. But, what it is, you have to, you never really guide your hammer to where you're hitting. where it is going and everything. hold it loose in your hand. You know This is the reason another aspect, that you For when you have to take a little longer to look at that particular piece of metal, then you normally do, you add the tune in �18. there, because you don't want to lose your rythmn. basic rythmn all the time. You hammer with a So, it's like when you're doing a roll and ah. . . (he demonstrates). While he's talking with him, I'll talk with ya'll. What I started to say about the little tune that he adds to that, what he was doing with the tune there was the aspect of like you would play a piano. When you didn't want to lose your rythmn or anything, you have to add that in to it. Or you were going into another song or something, you do a roll of something like that. So the tune is where you play to look over a piece of metal a little longer than you normally have to. So when you go out of it, you know right where you're going to make the next lick. Then, as he was hammering there the last time, he, that's how you basically hammer all day long. You don't add this flavor in everytime that you hammer or anything like that. So even though when he switched off and hit the anvil and everything like that, you're looking it over, but it takes you a shorter length of time to look it over. Now when you're tapering a piece, like he was doing there, the first thing you want to get an even taper all the way down. take you a little longer to look it over. So that's the reason it has to Then the next process that he'll be going through, he'll be turning his back to the anvil. backside of the anvil, where he normally stands. He'll be working to the The only reason that he does that, is to keep from Scarring up a certain portion of the anvil that you normally work on, such as this part here. on the anvil. You can even feel the indentations Then, once he gets through with that, he'll have a chinkapen leaf completed. �19. Q: What kind of work is that? I mean what is it used for? A: You can use it, for instance, right here. You can see in this picture of this table we have, let's see, I don't know if that's a good one or not. Yeah, here's a better one. This particular leaf design that you can add to it. Q: And this is what he's making? A: Right, he's making a chink, what we call a chink-a-pen leaf. It's what the chink-a-pen . leaf looks like when it first conies out in the spring of the year, about so long. particular chandelier. Well, here's another example. Here's one in this You can use them in a lot of aspects. You can use 'em in all types of work on grates, andirons, lighting fixtures of any kind. You can even make candelabra, together. planters out of them by putting several You can make headboards; I don't have apicture with the particular headboard that we used to mend, but I can show you a headboard that we have. Q: All these are samples of your work? A: Right. Everything in here, well, for instance, not a particular leaf, like we're forging over there, but now this door knocker is an oak leaf with an acornon it that you can use for a door knocker. You can use poplar lea£ laurel leaf, anything like that that you want. All you have to do is look at nature and there is a design there that you can work with. I can, if I wanted to, I could take and forge a complete tree, to make for the front of an andiron. legs. Bring it down and make all the root system, that would be your Then you come up with the trunk or; the body, forge all the branches �20 out, come in for that, and make the leaves, such as the oak leaf with the acorns on it. Make all 30f that for your design, your scroll work design. is what you do without a log rest. make a If you want to cut that and forge it, you can job of it for SL door. If you want to make an acorn--or a well, a door knocker, you can make the hinges, you can make an acorn and an oak leaf, or you can make two small oak leaves and put the acorns down through like this, and you've got a thumber latch handle holder. Hickory nuts, make poplar leaf door knockers, poplar leaf wall sconces for candles, things like this. There's no end to the designs you can come up with out of your head, out of nature. You can look at a certain type of rock every once in a while and you get designs in your mind because of the particular shape of the grain or something. here's a fancy pair of andirons. Then, well, Even animals, any type of animal you want to do. Horses, cows, pigs, dogs, anything that you want to do in the way of-- you can make 'em into andirons; well, this particular one was used for a weather vane. We've made several weather vanes, but we don't make 'em that often. But we make all types of animals. Q: Instead of learning all of this, you have to be something like a sculptor and a musician at the same time? A: Right, you work it to where you can, well, for instance, this is the design I came up with out of my head. I just seen, this is the two particular scrolls over here on the bottom of the andiron over there under the legs. I just happen to see them a-laying like that. That's all you need. This is the basic scroll in here. I came up with that design. You just need a particular something that catches your eye in �21 a fancy and-- so it doesn't matter, you cansee anything to come up with a design. This particular fine screen that we're building here, this is one of the few fire places you'll find that is a complete one. It has no straight lines to it. It's all one curvature. So, we had to make up a new type of screen for it, so you have to make up a new design. Q: Oh, you mean you have to go to the home and make, ? A: Right, we make a paste board tip with a -- of the fireplace and then we design the fire screen accordingly. Over there under the legs. I just happen to see them a -laying like that. Q: You were talking about forging a while ago. that? Exactly what do you mean by What is forging? A: Forging is just exactly what you've seen so far. metal and shaping it or wroughting it. It's the heatingof a piece of Wrought iron is a process of handmaking a piece. In other words, when you hand wrought jewelry, >£>r hand wrought gold, you made it by hand, or you shaped it by hand. Wrought iron has two different aspects. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, when they had to make their own metal, instead of mills making their metal, this is where the wrought iron comes in at. Because they would have, say like, three or four men in there that would take and, well, let's say, a six-inch square piece. four foot long. Six inches square, You take that four foot long piece, you put it in the fire, and you may have three men to work on it, and they take sledge hammers, twenty pound sledge hammers, and they start working it down. You can work that particular piece down into 3/8 round, into 1/2 inch square, into 1 / 8 x 1 strip, 1/8 x 1/4, �22 anything that you can, but today, you can make it into that. So this is where your wrought iron aspect comes in. At that particular time, they could not find metal readily, like we can here. All we have to do is call the mill, or we call the wholesaler, and he can ship it up to us or he can buy it. scrap that they could. So they saved every It didn't matter if it was an inch long. weld a lot of these together. They would forge Well, they may forge-forge weld a piece with 1/2 inch square, 5/8 square, 3/8 round, all of this together, and it would be these odd sizes in one long strip. What they do, they kept folding these back, folding them over each other, and making it into one particular size piece that they wanted. This is where also in wrought iron, you have a grain. It's very easy to work with. It's varied grain. But yet they never threw away a particular piece. That's where we also get wrought iron. Now wrought, of course, is the same thing that we're doing now is shaping that particular leaf. it is handmade; it is hand shaped. We call it now free forging because as you can . see, it had no d jes, no molds, no guides to go by. hand hammer. It is hand wrought; You do everything with a You do everything free-hand. When you can do that, of course, you've got forging conquered. There're too many people today that cai call themselves blacksmiths, that have dyes, and molds, and everything. see in our shop is just what we have. What you We don't pretend to hide anything like dyes ;.. i n or molds or anything like that, because we don't need 'em. We forge everything right on the anvil. it's For instance, the horse or that particular credusus over there, made right on the anvil* it's forged. When I made that particular dredusus, I didn't even heat it. cold. That's cold forged. Every bit of that is hammered out t �23 Q: You mean, you hammer it together? A: No it's one solid piece, but it has a three dimensional-a kind of a three dimensional shape to it. You have to round those snakes upso they'll look like a body of a snake, round the staff up. But, of course, from here you can't see it, but I tried to put as much of the underside of the wings in with the feathers. I put the scales on the snakes and the grain of the wood, tried to, in the staff. Of course, that goes, that particular one goes to an optometrist in Raleigh. I've made about three or four of 'em for local doctors. We do work all over the world. We've got work in London, Cairo, and at that particular time we did it, it was the Belgian Congo. We did it for a big rubber plantation. Did a big set of hinges or things like that for a plantation back in the Congo. So, we got work all over the United States, all over the continent of the United States. Q: Well, how do these people find out about you? A: Word of mouth. Also, we've had six exhibits at the Smithsonian Institute and been up there twice to demonstrate, and I have one permanent exhibit now at the Smithsonian, plus I have also an exhibit now at Pasadena Museum of Fine Arts. We used to travel quite a bit to colleges and universities. We'ye stopped that now. Of course, we've been to Boone, and we've been to Western Carolina, East Tennessee State, and Carolina, and North Carolina State, and been to some colleges in Florida, and oh, well, the Smithsonian again. And Craftsman fair in Asheville, Craftsman fair in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, North Carolina State Fair, Dixie Classic Fair in Winston-Salem, and places like that. �24 Dad also did a little of the work on the Williamburg restortation. We've got work now in Abercombie andFitchin New Youk. We've got work in Macy's in New York. We could do a lot more work like this for the big concerns, but when they order, like a hundred and forty-four shovels, that gets ridiculous just to set and make shovels, and pokers, and log forks and brooms all the time. of it. That's the reason we got out We stayed in the custom work all the way. Of course, we still do a lot of w^rk up around Beech Mountain, Hound Ears, Seven Devils, and Invershiel. I've got a lot of work to do for Invershiel. for them. I've got to do a big set of thistled andirons They've got thistles on 'em, with the thistles on 'em, with thistle, leaves and all of this. Thistle fire sets and thistle screens and thistles and more thistles. But we do quite a bit of work up around the Boone area plus all down through Florida, because of the fact of the hurricanes. They got a place to cook on when the power's down, or the heat source. Do quite a bit of work out West and up North, through Michigan and places like that. But it's just mostly by word of mouth, because we have really never advertised at all. Q: What is the permanent display you have in the Smithsonian? A: We really pack it on a cardboard box, but we put it inside of a frame and everything and put cardboard around it and also packing material, all around it, so it won't get bent up or anything. Of course, with the shipping today, you have to pack it real good. Of course most of the pictures that we have in our book are local pictures, some of the things around Spruce Pine, and the area. Q: Sir, a while ago you were talking about the blacksmiths back in the olden days saving the pieces of metal. Is there anything you can do with the metal savings, like tftat over there? Do you sweep it up, and throw it away? �25 A: We sweep it up and throw it away. You could refine it and it is actually metal. It's just the scale off of the metal. It's where the air gets to it and becomes harder than the piece under it and it flakes off. You could do that. it with the filings that come out. it. You could do But if steel ever gets scarce now, you could do But the way they are reprocessing automobiles and other junk things, the railroad, and trainwrecks, and things like this, with the processes that we've got now, there's not much need to save it. A lot of people, the potters do, and get it and grind it, to add iron to their clay to get a special effect on gages and also get special effects on their. . . Q: What? Do you sell this to them? A: No. We give it away. We don't have any use for it. Q: You had a smaller anvil when you were younger, didn't you? A: Oh, yes. It weighs about 10 or 15 Ibs. Yeah, this is the first anvil I ever worked on. That was it. Dad made that for me. It was just made out of a piece of railroad railing. And of course, this is my horseshoeing anvil. It weighs about 200 Ibs. And it's a specialized anvil. blacksmithing anvils. These are your regular As you can see it has two critcher holes, a hardy hole, plus it has part of the face cut off there, where you can turn over and throw your big shoes, like a number 7 or something like that, that you can use it on. Q: Where do you get your anvils. �26. A: They don't make 'em anymore, as far as this type of anvil goes, because these are forged anvils, they are not anvils that are cast. just exactly like we forge that. They are forged That's the reason we have the sound to them. We just pick 'em up, well, for instance, Dad's came from a New York junk yard. And mine came from Virginia; this once came from down on the coast of North Carolina; this one came from Asheville. This is a Hade Buddeman, it was made in New York, the horseshoeing anvil. This one was made in England, the big one. It weighs four hundred and eighty-eight pounds. It was made by Peter Rythin in England. He was one of the most, I guess, most gifted and most famous anvil makers in the world. Q: You know how old that anvil is? A: It could be anywhere between 75 and 125 years old. Any of these anvils could. Now I do not know where Dad's was made, who made it or anything like that, because it has no name on it. Mine, I'm about to figure out it's a Hade Budd manlt has no name on it, but I'm picking up the name gradually off of it. I've got to get it worked and worked over a little and the name might come out on it. I can make out an "H", so I'm going to say that it's a Hade Buddmanaridwas made in New York. But it's a very high carbon steel. And it might have been imported from Sweden originally. It has a tendency to act like Swedish steel, because it has a very, very high keen tone about it. That's the reason I'm working on.hollow log with it. deafen you at times. It can �27. Q: In getting these, do you play them, I mean, for the tone? A: Oh, yes. That's the reason we buy them. Q: What, because of the way they sound? A: Because of their musical quality. Q: Think y'all could go through that one more time? A: Oh yeah, we'll go through it. He's gotta finish up this leaf over here, and then he'll, when he gets finished, we'll run through that again. We may be a little warmer now. Kinda hard to do that the first thing around in the morning. Q: How much would a set of irons like that cost? A: The fancy two over there run about $350 a pair. Of course, we make them from $50 to $1, 500. Well, I use that, for an example, if a person wants a $5,000 set of andirons. I mean, it's just up to the person, individual, what he wants, how fancy it is, what the scroll work and everything is on it and everything. Q: Do you have anything, like in the homes of the Rockefellers, the big ones like that. A: You said the $5, 000, I assume that would mean.. . No, the only work we ever done for Rockefeller would been on the Williamsburg estates, when they were restoring Williamsburg. Like I say, it's very seldom that a person would want a $5,000 set or in that book. I make about a dozen different designs, a lot of those are the pictures of the �28. coffee tables and others the dining table. It's hard to put a time limit 'cause now this leaf run out right real pretty. work as good as others. Sometimes this metal don't I got a piece over here the other day that I made one somebody was, it wouldn't work at all. Now this piece of metal worked exceptionally good here. You can't hardly judge, well, if I thought about the time, I wouldn't even work at it. terms of this fire set here. I mean that's, if I thought of time in I may make three of them handles and the fourth one there, it may take me as long to make the fourth one as it did all three of 'em. So you just don't know. Q: You ever run into any that's just impossible to work with? A: No, when it gets like that, you say, "Lord, break this old stubborn willed piece of stuff here, " and just go right on working. If you walk into a man's shop, I'll tell you how you can tell how godd a mechanic, a machinist, or a blacksmith.Go look in all his corners. If you see anything, if he's got a great big bunch of stuff throwed back, you just go to the next. If he's got a lot of mistakes. A: There's a piece of wrought iron, that he made. That's forge welded together seven times. That's seven separate pieces of metal in one. Q: That's the same idea as probably the different layers? A: No, that's just a name. Wrought iron, now that you can buy, you can only buy it about one place in the United States, what you might say technically still makes it, is the carbon content in it. Wrought iron has really no carbon �29. in it at all. Mild iron which we use, has just a little bit of carbon in it. Q: Do you make any wrought iron fences? Y'all do anything like that? A: Oh yeah, we make all types of gates, and railings and things like this. But we try to stay mainly with the andiron and fire sets, screens, and things like that, because of the fact that there's such a demand for them nowa - days. And other things too. Our wrought iron railings and things like, unless somebody just wants to pay for it, they can pay it at Sears a whole lot cheaper. Q: Wrought iron fence that you would make would probably run several hundred thousand dollars, wouldn 't it? A: No, it will run into the thousands of dollars, but it really depends on how long, how fancy, and things like that. We can do real fancy work or you can do a plain one. But when a person buys or gets one of our railings or porch or anything like that, we put the best in it that we possibly can put. We put all solid stock, there's no, everything is fully welded together, everything, if there's scroll work, we'll, all the scrolls are proportioned, tapered, everything. We put what we call a full graduated tapered scroll on it. In other words, that's this scroll that's on the side of each pair andiron. That's the full graduated tapered scroll. Q: Is this the name put on each piece of. . . ? A: Right, we put our name on every piece that leaves the shop, on every �30. piece really, because of the fact that we, if you want to call it pride, we are proud of everything we do. Plus the fact, there has been a few times in the past that one or two pieces have been sold that didn't have our name on it, but they didn't tell them it wasn't. They have came back, and said that we didn't do such a good job, so if it doesn't have our name on it, it's not ours. A: Unless it might be years ago. A: Well, when you were downtown. He was a foreman in a machine shop, and did wrought iron work too. on it. And at that particular time didn't put his name But this incidence or couple of incidences happened within recent years. But since Dad's been out here. . . A: And a lot of work I done down there, I put my name on it and somebody's done hid Shine that for me. Q: You use sand paper to shine this? A: Yes, all the time. This is what we call a natural finish. Most the time we paint the things when they're going into a fireplace or outside. This is what you'd call a natural wrought iron finish or some type of Swedish finish. Q: Are you making this particular piece for a particular person now? A: No, we make this because this is one of the few things that we can show what a bar of metal can be turned completely into to a finished product. Also, we had these andirons laid out on a table, just in the front there, there are nineteen different pieces. So, if a person, if we tried to demonstrate it at a �31 show, or something that if we were going to talk about it, it's hard to lay out all these nineteen pieces and say, "Well now this is going to be a set of andirons. " They cannot visualize the finished product. But with this we can show exactly how it's done and right to a finished product. Q: You have an apprentice now, or is there someone? A: No, we don't have anybody working with us. Most of, well, one thing, you have to start out fairly young. The public education system today still goes for reading, writing, and arithmetic and in certain ways, that prepares you for life, but it doesn't prepare you for a job. The thing about it is, if they would even in the fifth or sixth grade, set up a learning program for crafts or skills, and let them start learning back at that particular age; it's a lot easier to learn at that age than it is when you get out of college, and say "I'm going to go into it, " because you have gone and formed your opinion and everything like that and it's hard to say, "Now, this is the best way. " Now Dad was real good to me. I do it. He said, "Now this is the way You can find a better, go ahead. " Of course, I started out young and found some better ways, and the one good thing about him, he's always willing to, if I find a short cut or a better way to do it, he's willing to take it and work with it my way instead of his. But today, in the college society that we have, it's what, you might say, not an honor to go into menial tasks. They want to pull or push a pencil. to technical school. Of course, I went on to school. I went But, this is my first love, I've never seen anything else or known anything else, that I'd rather do than this. �32. Q: Do you have a son you're planning on passing this down to? A: I'm not even married. I'm lucky enough to stay single, I think. A: If I'd know? it was going to be this cold, I'd built two fires. A: Wait until we get through. A: You know it's cold, it's cold. A: It won't be that cold when we get through. What this is, this is the language that dates back to the building of King Solomon's temple. We use it today, Dad and I do, as a tune mostly, because I know what I'm going to do and he knows what he's going to do. But basically what it is, as long as he's hammering here on the face of the anvil, I can work withtteside of the piece of metal that I want to and I'm working it right. Then when he hits it on the heel, that tells me to work the right hand side or his right hand side, and how hard he hits the heel, is how hard I hit this piece. Whether he hits the back of the heel or the front of the heel}.'tells.me to work high or low on it. Then when he switches over and hits the horn, that tells me to work on his left side. How hard he hits the horn is how hard I hit this. Whether he hits the back or the front of the horn, tells me also whether to work on it high or low. Then if he sees a high spot I don't happen to see, due to the different viewpoints of light that you have, he will reach in with his hammer and tap that. How hard he hits that with his hammer is how hard I back him up. Now if he reaches in there the second time immediately, I don't hit that spot, because he can take that out himself. That's the reason when he keeps tapping in there, I don't touch that spot. I go ahead and hammer all around it, even though it looks like I may hit his hammer. �33. But when he starts going back and forth on the horn of the anvil, that tells me to draw it longer all the time. And all of this is made up a four year apprenticeship that a person learns the basics of hammering, but he works from one end of the anvil to the other. And all this language goes on, whether he's on the horn or the heelpart of your anvil, or anything like that. Then after that four years, you switch to this side of the anvil, and spend six years with the master on the same anvil. After that you go to a? entirely different anvil, different forge, and work on separate things yourself. And after you work on separate things yourself for four more years, you can become a master blacksmith, and then you can do whatever you want to. You should have learned enough to where you can go into your own business. I don't have that much more to say, except Dad learned his through Daniel Boone VI, and then he got it down from the original Daniel. called a logging blacksmith. He was what you He made all types, shoes for oxen, mules. He did single tree work, all types of wedges, things that pertained mainly to end of sawmilling and that type of thing. Then, of course, like I say now, we do it mostly to the tune. I don't pay much attention to what he's, but is basically the way you can learn blacksmithing, the way, a special way that you can pick up blacksmithing, even though there's not, this will teach you the hammering portion of blacksmithing, this does not teach you anything about tempering, formula for tempering, formulas for the study of carbon and steel, the molecular structure of steel, the how to temper, the direction of temper, how they interlock molecules, how to forge weld, how to jump pieces together, how to sweat pieces together. There's such a wide variation that �34. you have to learn, within this 16 year period that you put in, that it's not all spent right on the anvil, all of it hammer. You have a classroom that you go through, just like these you go through high school, or any other school, because this is all part of blacksmithing. If you don't know how to forge weld, there's no blacksmithing to it, because it's all. . . You have to have certain instances that you have to forge weld pieces together, you can't weld in any other way. Then you got to know how to make a fire, fix a fire, different types of fire, whether it's a welding fire, whether it's a heat fire, or whether it's a fire for sharpening steel, a fire that's going to last one day or two days or three days. All this is a part of it. You've got to know how to make tongs, to handle your steel. You've got to know how to make your own personal hammers, whether it's a shop hammer or specialized hammers, such as horse shoeing tools, whether it's claw hammers or sledge hammers or you have to know how to punch eyes, you have to know how to make bits, you have to kno'i? how to forge weld together a piece that has holes in the center and keep the hole open so that it doesn't fill up. You have to know what a back weld is, you have to know what a light weld is, you have to know what a funnel weld is. There's so much in blacksmithing that you have to learn besides hammering. We've got three of the oldest ancient arts here that's anywhere in the world or know in the world. One of 'em, well, first of all, there's the pottery which came first, the art of making clay into pots; then there came blacksmithing, then came marketry. Marketry is the art of inlaying wood into itself, into either pictures or tables or something like that. It dates back to the ancient Egyptian times. Of course, this dates on back to the �35. Iron Age. Of course, the pottery, well, that comes from the ground, and that's as old as the earth, one of the first discovered. So, we're one of the few places that have three of the oldest ancient arts. Q: Is all this your family, the ones of you.. . ? A: No, they're just people that we rent or lease our building. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bea and Mike Hensley, March 24, 1973 Description An account of the resource In this interview father and son, Bea and Mike Hensley, talk about their occupation of blacksmithing. Bea and Mike explain different processes they used in their craft along with how they both got into the trade. They talk about their shop in Spruce Pine, North Carolina and then demonstrate how to forge metal and the way anvil language works. Mike and Bea also describe demonstrations they have done for universities and permanent displays they have in the Smithsonian. As a surprising piece of information, Daniel Boone passed on the trade that eventually both Bea and Mike learned through his ancestors. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harmon, Lester and Brinkley, Bill Hensley, Bea and Mike Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/24/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 35 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape44-45_Bea&MikeHensley_1973_03_24M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Spruce Pine, NC Subject The topic of the resource Blacksmithing--North Carolina--Spruce Pine anvi language anvil blacksmith Daniel Boone Smithsonian https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9bb5d38ab2ac7dd93afbd2e75437af12.pdf a3788980e9f9bb0a5b8458d91eaa225f PDF Text Text Tape # 49 Outline Ira Donald Shull I. Birthplace, farm, 5th generation of Shulls, jobs, farming. II. Birth, house born in. III. Brothers and sisters. IV. Property V. Food. VI. Roads and transportation. VII. Storing food. VIII. Feather beds, shuck mattresses, straw beds. IX. Flax, hand looms, weaving. X. School. XL Civil War stories, slaves. XII. Jobs, leaving home, Washington. XIII. Churches. XIV. Valle Crucis - name. XV. Community, leaders, size, population. XVI. Elections, politics. XVII. Mail. XVIII. Badmen. XIX. Doctors, medicines, herbs, roots. XX. Unions XXI. News. XXII. Telephones. �Tape #50. Outline Ira Don Shull I. Telephones II. Farming, gambling in farming. III. Sheep. IV. Electricity. V. Depression VI. Government projects. VII. Blue Ridge Parkway. VIII. Bob Dalton. IX. Farming, markets. X. Banks closing. XL Neighbors during Depression. XII. Tourists. XIII. Selling Land after Depression. XIV. Cars. XV. 1940 Flood. XVI. First car. XVII. Horses. XVIII. Recreation. XIX. Barn raisings. XX. Weddings. XXI. Courting �PAGE(S) MISSING NOT AVAILABLE �2. Q: Now the first thing we want to know is about your childhood, where you were born, who your parents were, where they're from, how many brothers and sisters you had, how long ya'll lived around here and where everybody went from here. A: Well, I was born on this farm, not in this house, but in the home, the next house up where my sisters live now when they're here in the summer. They're in Florida in the winter, you know, up here where you're going. In 1892, eighth of November, that's when I was born. Q: Who built the house? A: My daddy, J.M. Shull. Q: And was he born here too? A: Yes, he was born, not in that house, but in another house that stood down where the garden is now. I can remember when they tore it down and part of the lumber out of that house is in the house that you and Frank are moving in, there's some of the lumber in that house. Q: How many brothers and sisters did you have? A: I had two half-sisters, my father was married twice. First to Holly Greene and she passed away and then later my father married All Baird and had four sisters and no brothers. I'm the only boy by the last wife Ali. Q: All this property you have, is it the same property that your father had? �3. A: I have a portion of it, he had more than I have. He sold off some. Q: Where did the land that your father owned go? Who got it and where was it? A: Well, he sold to various people, perhaps, I don't know, any number of people, the last account I had there were seventeen dwellings or seventeen people owned part of what was originally the old Shull farm. I have been told by the older folks, there were either 900 or 1100 acres. I never knew which. That was the original Shull property. All this down here and that there, the big ridge where those folks live, there was a big boundary. I own all of this, I think there's around 300 acres yet, I .own 225 of it, my sisters own the balance of it. What's left, in the neighborhood, there's 300 acres left of the original 9 or 11 hundred. Q: Did you grow your own food on this farm when you were a kid? A: Yeah, all of us. We had to grow about all of it, we'd buy a little coffee and sugar, was about the end of the buhing, so far as the eating was concerned. We used to grow a lot of cabbage and potatoes and vegetables, stuff like that and haul 'em to Hickory and Lenoir in a wagon in the fall of the year and trade 'em for our coffee and sugar and maybe a little flour. Q: What were the roads like then? A: Just trails, just about like this right down through here. Q: Just room enough for the wagon? �4. A: That was about it and you had to hunt places when you meet people to pass. You couldn't pass any place. You had to get out on the banks, I've seen 'em life the wagons out of the roads so you could get by. Q: And you'd go that way all the way to Lenoir? A: All the way to Lenoir. Took three days to go to Lenoir and if you went on to Hickory it took about a week. Load a wagon here with produce, 'bout a couple thousand pounds around the tongue, ten and a quarter. Take four horses, take it to the top of the mountain and from there on two horses could usually take it down the mountain. Q: Do you remember period of scarcity of food when you were growing up here? A: No, we never had any scarcity of food on this place that I remember. Q: Did you store a lot of food? A: Yes. year. Used to kill a dozen hogs and maybe a couple or three beefs in a Kept a big flock of chickens, a hundred or so chickens, big flock of geese and ducks. We used to pick the geese feathers to make feather beds. We used lots of feather beds back then. We did have some old shuck mattresses I guess back in the early days. and you'd roll over it it and the feathers you'd sleep warm and snug. Q: What's a shuck mattress? Put these feather beds on there would come up around you and �5. A: Well, it was a mattress similar to the ones they have now, but made out of corn husks. straw beds. They called 'em shuck mattresses. Straw beds, had lots of Have a big tick and fill it with straw and sleep on that; lot of people did. Q: When did it change? A: Oh, I don't know, it changed over the years so gradually I couldn't pinpoint it. I doubt if a person could sleep on a feather bed now, I couldn't* Q: Where would they get cloth to make things like mattresses? A: I don't know. They used to grow flax. didn't I? I showed you an old flax plate They used to grow flax right here on the farm, break it and weave the cloth on these old hand looms. when I could remember. They had a couple of 'em up here since My mother would weave. Q: Would she get together with most other women and they'd all sit around and do it? A: Everybody in the country had a loom. If you couldn't weave you couldn't be a wife hardly, or a housewife, if you couldn't weave cloth. Q: Were your sisters taught to do all those kind of things.? A: No, I don't remember that they were. Q: How about school as a child here? A: We had four months school; had to walk four miles to get there and back. �6. Q: Where was the school? A: One of them was way down yonder, you know where the next bridge is across the river down here below Valle Crucis. You ever been around that a way to Boone? Q: Down 194 towards 421, that way? A: Yea. You went over to Mountain City didnU you, in the night other night? On Mast Gap Road? The school house that we walked to down there was right on the hill. This end of that big bridge that's there now. We also walked to Shull's Mill to school, went both ways. We little fellows, we had to walk, too. You didn't ride then. Oh occasionally we'd maybe get a ride on a wagon or something. Q: What was the school you told me once that was in Boone you had to walk to? A: I don't know, what they'd call, common school I reckon's what they called it back those days, I don't know. There wasn't any graded school and terms they use not, that I remember. Q: Were all the different ages of students in one room? A: Yeah. They were all in one room, with one teacher. I remember some of my old teachers, Frankham was one. He was a great big, dark complexioned man with gray hair and had great big eyes half as big as that and he'd scare you just looking at you. Miss Kephart was another. Kepharts we have now, I don't suppose. No relation to the I never thought about it 'till this very �7. minute. You know Miss Kephart? Q: How did they keep discipline in the schools then? A: You'd get hit with an ox whip almost. Make you go out and cut your own hickorys to give you a lickin 1 with. Man they'd lick ya, too. Yes sir, whenever you got out of line back then you got it and when you got home you got another one if they found it out. We were taught to the tune of a hickory stick. Q: Did your father go to school? A: Yeah, he went to school. Q: Sime place you went? A: Oh, lawd no. The schools he went to wouldn't be a comparison either. Q: What were you gonna say? A: Almost as far behind these today, there wasn't ihat much difference. Yes, he went to school. One of his brothers, Uncle William, he went to the state Senate, I reckon it was the Senate or Legislature or maybe both in Raleigh, I believe he was both. He was a one-armed man and my father, let's see, Phillip, Noey, and Benn, all four of 'em went through the Civil War. Q: Did he ever tell you about what it was like around here during the Civil War? A: Yes, I heard a lot of stories about what it was like around here. I forget what they called them, Rebels, they called them Rebels, when they came �through here and camped right up here, what they call the old Muster Field around the bend of the river up here, it's all growed up now, where they camped and they had to come down here to Grandfather Shull's. They had big log barns up there and big cribs of corn. They drove in there with their wagons and back up to the side of his crip, shoveled his crib out in the wagons and hauled it off. Q: These were the Rebels or the Yankees? A: Yankees, I guess they were. think. And they did take some of his horses I I heard them talk about they had one bay mare, an awful pretty bay filly and a young mule or two or something and some of them slipped down to the barn and turned them out, they'd run them across the river in this big field and the soldiers fell on their tracks. They wanted them and some of them went down there, according to the story as I got it, they tried to get them up but they could smell that campfire or something. They said that there weren't enough soldiers to get around them to bring those horses in, so they left 'em there. They had three left, this mare and a pair of mules. And they took their meat way down yonder in the swamp across the river and buried it right out in the muck to save it. Those were old stories before my day, that were handed down to me. Q: Were the men in that family fighting in the Rebel forces ? A: They were in the Rebels, the sourtherners you see. Q: Would the men in the family have been home here on the farm or would they have been out fighting somewhere else? �A: Oh, they were all gone, the men were gone, nobody here but my old grandfather and grandmother and that old nigger slave I believe they had. And she stayed right here, Grandfather Shull bought these slaves, he bought a mother and her child and old Will. He was an old man when I knew him but he was young and old Tuck was his mother. They called her Tuck, she passed away and Will grew up and stayed right here. Well, he ran away and married a white woman. Took a white woman and stole one of Grandfather's horses and run off to Tennessee or someplace, Virginia. And when boys got up the next day and found this good horse gone, they called the Shulls (the slaves had to take the same name as their owners) found him gone along with their good horse, they inquired around and found that he'd taken this woman, her name was Lyon something, they were getting their horse to go get him. "We'll go get that nigger. " Grandfather Shull came out and told 'em, "No, you're not going anywhere. You go to work, " he says, "That nigger will be back. " And sure enough after he'd sold the horse and run out of money and nobody wanted him, he came creeping back and they lived here on the place the rest of their days, raised a family, they all worked here. Grandfather Shull just let them stay up here and they worked right here on the place til he died of old age. He died while I was in the West. He was as white-headed as that when I left here but he was gone when I returned and I just inquired the other day about Gilbus Mitchell who was the only man I could thing of in the country. Boyd and I were talking about what become of old Will and I asked Gilbus if he knew where old nigger Will was buried and he said that he thought the county buried him on the county jfarm over near Boone. When they were freed they took off. He just stayed here and worked right on. �10. Q: What are some of the j-obs you've had? A: Oh, Lord, I've had so many, honey. From pillar to post, happy go lucky, didn't care much for anything, whether the boat landed or whether it didn't, just roving around. Got quite a bit of experience out of it, I don't know. I never had any education to amount to anything so far as books were concerned. Q: How far did you go in school? A; Eighth grade. What they call eighth grade now, they didn't have any grades back then. Q: When did you leave home to get your first job? A: Seventeen years old. Q: What job was that? A: I went West, landed in the state of Washington, sixteen miles out of Spokane, a little town called Cheny. Q: What job did you do then? A: I got a job with a man had a ranch with the name of McDowell, Shirley McDowell. First job I ever had away from home. He had a ranch outside of Cheny there and he also owned mining stock up in the Cortalane, you've heard of the Cortalane Indian reservation in Idaho, have you? Q: No. �11. A: Well, he had some mining stock up there in the Cortalane. Cortalane was mostly Indian, and he would go up there quite often, 'bout once a week I guess, to see about his interest there. The Indians were friendly with him, he was a friend of them, they liked to see him. other words. He got along with them in I worked for him, that was the first job I ever had away. I can't remember Mrs. McDowell's given name but they were a young couple, they just had two children, a boy and a girl, I remember. the girl Zona. Q: I guess. I think they called Is that right for a girl's name? Inver heard it. A: I believe Zona was her name and I forget the boy's name but they were an awfully nice young couple. They were just as nice to me as they could be. Q: What kind of work did you do? A: I just worked there on the ranch. Anything that had come up that he had to do. He had machines, thrashing machines and some cattle. I did every- thing that come up on the ranch and got scared to death there, I never been scared before in my life or since. Q: What scared you? A: Well sir, that was the worst scare any man ever had, to live through it. They had a big old well out in the barn lot 'bout as big as this table is round. And Mr. McDowell had gone that day across the Cortalanes over into Idaho across the state line. Quite a ways over there. And the school marm boarded, that's what they called 'em then, school marms, boarded at McDowells and �12. and Elizabeth, she'd gone to school, and Zona and the little boy had gone with her. And Mrs. McDowell was going to wash. Well-water was awful scarce and hard to get where you could find a well that would supply water, great big old well, it just had a big old wooden door, platform of a thing built to slip over this well. Hinged over there and you could take a hold of it here and turn it around until the whole well opened. Great big thing. Well, Mrs. McDowell was fixing to wash and I went to get a load of wood and she had her clothes out there and she's all round thre and I'd built the fire and when I came back, Mrs. McDowell was gone, there was the clothes, the water was hot and this well was open. Imagination, I just knew Mrs. McDowell was in that well. It just scared me; I hardly knew what I's a doing. I knew I's a stranger out there three or four thousand miles from home and they'd say, "Well, that fellow pushed Mrs. McDowell in that well. " That was just imagination, you know, and the longer it went and I went all over the place a yelling for her and a hollering. Doors was open in the house. Things scattered all over just like it was when I went after the wood. And I was so excited and so scared. His brother Jim lived up the road about a mile, and always kept a bunch of horses around. Two or three saddle horses and a saddle on one most of the time. I caught that saddle horse and I jumped on him, left everything just like it was and I just flew up to Jim's, told Jim about Mrs. McDowell had disappeared and he saw how excited I was and scared and me just a young lad. he caught a horse and started back with me. I think If I remember correctly, he said no, just forget all that, that wasn't nothing, talking 'bout me pushing her in the well that's why I's scared. We met a neighbor or someone. They �13. were scared then. Not many people ever traveled but someone come along and said she'd gone into town with another neighbor down there that drove up there in a buckboard, and she just jumped in the carriage and went with 'em and never left me a note or anything and scared me to death, never thought about what it would do to me, you know. Didn't intend to be gone long. It was 4 or 5 miles up to town. I won't forget that scare, never. Q: How long did you work on that farm? A: I didn't work there too long. I went there in spring of the year. Now when harvest season come along up in June or July, I got to seeing in the paper where they was advertising for harvest hands down in the Paloose country. And I talked to fellows around there that had followed the harvest season. $2. 50 a day then was tremendous wages. Nobody'd ever heard of such wages. Well, I decided I'd go down and follow the harvest. I went down there. I was down there two or months I guess. Q: Where is the Paloose country? A: Paloose country? Well, it's south of Spokane. It's all Paloose country between Spokane and Walla Walla. forget. country. I believe they call it the Downem or, I Anyhow it was along the R&N railroad, R&N they called it the Paloose Very rich section of the country. North of wheat country. Q: How long did you work harvesting? A: Oh, I worked several harvests, different ones. I got in with a Richard Hagaman, Hagaman brothers. They were big operators. I got in with them �14. and they were originally from this country. Kelly that I was with. I called 'em Uncle Joe and Aunt There was Joe and Tom and Robie and four brothers. And I always called Uncle Joe and Aunt Kelly my home. I stayed with them. They were awfully good to me. I stayed right with them. Q: I think we better get back to Valle Crucis. What do you remember about the churches that were here? Did you go to church? A: Yes sir, my father was Sunday School superintendent for years, 'bout as long as I can remember. We had to go every Sunday. Q: Where was the church? A: Right where it is now. Q: Did most of the people in Valle Crucis go to that church? A: Yes. It was called Valle Crucis, too. Up where I go to church now was known as Upper Valle Crucis and this down here at the Methodist Church, they called it Lower Valle Crucis. Q: How has the church changed? A: Well, it's been added to quite a bit and more or less modernized, I suppose you'd call it. Q: How do you mean? A: Well, it was a little room to start with. Now they've built Sunday School rooms. �15. Q: Did they have hymnals? A: Oh yeah, they had hymnals. Q: Who was the preacher? A: Oh, there've been half a dozen, every so often. I couldn't tell you. Yeah, they change 'em I don't know who all; I can remember a few names, Dawson and Burris, Ader at the Methodist Church and I can remember a few up at the Episcopal Church. Q: Do you know how Valle Crucis got its name? A: Yeah. From the three creeks over there. No one ever explained that to you? To save my life, I've thought about it a lot. I don't get it but Dutch Creek comes down through here; Clark's Creek comes down through here; Crab Orchard comes in here. Not to a pinpoint, but I understand that it was named from them,three creeks forming a cross. That's the old story I've heard. Q: Maybe it was valley of the cross. A: Vale of the cross. Q: Who were the community leaders? A: My father was one of the leaders, Jim Shull, D.F. Mast, W. H. Mast, C.D. Taylor, L. H. Taylor, D.F. Beard, old Uncle Henry Taylor, the ones I can remember that were the leading citizens in the community. �16. Q: Why were they community leaders? A: Well, just like any other community, every other country, and every other community you know has leaders, don't they? Q: Yeah. A: Well, how would you describe it? Q: Did they have the most property, or were they just. . . A: Just prominent men, that's the best I could term it. Men stood up for what's right. Wouldn't that be the way you'd describe it? Q: I sure would. I sure would. A: They were church going folks. Q: How many people were in the community then and how has it changed? A: Comparatively few from what there is now and there wasn't but one house between my father's house, this house wasn't ihere, these houses down here, there was one house, little old log house stood up at the holler was the only house between my father's house and Uncle Fin's down there at Joe's where these folks bought me the pie the other night live. That house and one other between the store, just the three houses betweenvthe store and my father's back at that time. Now then there's another one isn't there? Q: What were the politics like? �A: Well, just of the immediate community it was mostly Democratic but for the township as a whole, it was Republican. Q: What constituted the township? A: Township's Republican. Q: The township of Boone, do you mean? A: No, Boone township's different, this is Watauga township. cut up into townships. The county's Let's see there's Shawneehaw, Watauga, Aho, Boone, Meat Camp, New River, Elk, Cove Creek is eight, Brushy Fork, I don't know whether there's eight or nine townships in the county or what. Q: Do you remember any particular elections? A: One more than the other you mean? No, I don't believe I could name one right at the moment that was outstanding. Most of the folks in this township, they're pretty level-headed, give and take in other words, give and take. I get along mighty well, this is a Republican township, but I get along with the Republicans mighty well. We joke back and forth. I'll go at a bunch of 'em, "Hi, Republicans" which used to back in long ago days would make 'em mad. They won't anymore, they'll take it" good naturedly. They'll say, "Yeah, here comes that lousy Democrat. " Q: You'd say at one time people wouldn't take it good naturedly? A: That's right, there was a time when anything mentioned in the political line would create friction. But that's all gone, people's got above that. Yeah, �18. Jim Church, his father's a Republican, Jim was raised a Republican, fellows up 'there around the filling station, man that made that remark is dead and gone now but he was a sort of a tight Republican, he said, "Jim", he was teasing Noy more or less, Jim's father, owns a motel and says, "Jim married in that Shull family down there and they made a Democrat out of him, " and said, "Now Jim's darn near made a Democrat out of Noy. " That's the way we get along, we just have fun out of it. over his politics. I'm not a gonna fall out with my neighbor I don't care how he votes, it's immaterial to me. He's got a good right to vote his way as I have" mine. Q: How did people get around in those days? A: On their, what they used to call 'em, mother's, got around by foot, that's the way you got around. Walkway wasn't crowded. Well, you could ride horse back some as some of the folks. Q: Did people around here have carriages? A: Oh yes, the country was full of buggies and surreys. Stagecoach line used to run through here and that was long before my day. Had a station up here at Grandfather Shull's where they changed horses, four, six horse team to the stagecoach. You've seen 'em on the movies. They had a station up here, he had a big barn and plenty of everything around him and they'd change horses there, that was a station to change horses. Q: Where were they coming from? �19. A: Running from. Butler, Tennessee, then to Morganton, N. C. was this run and I don't know where they went to from there any other place. It had quit running but I have a piece of the old stagecoach. It was up here for a long time. Grandfather Shull was a blacksmith, he had a blacksmith shop. Shoe the horses and help keep up the carriages, and I have a piece of that, we kids, my sisters and I, we played with that old stagecoach and climbed in it and out of it and make out like we's a driving it. Til it run it down, went to the bad and tear it off by souvenir hunters and I have one piece of it out there in the cellar now. The old original stagecoach, it run from, I bet it's the only piece left. Q: Where did the carriages and coaches come from? A: That's beyond me, that's what I don't know. I read something not too long ago about someone down this state I believe, either in this state or South Carolina that made those things, built 'em. Q: How did the mail work? A: Mail was carried by horseback mostly. Q: How often did it come? A: Once or twice a week, I think. Q: Did you ever remember getting things by mail order back when you were young? A: Yeah, yeah. Yes sir, used to order lots of stuff mail order. Yeah, I �20. can remember that. We get stuff yet, we very often order stuff by mail order. Til it come into the post office though we bought from Sears and Roebuck mostly; it always come to the Sears in Boone, went out there to pick it up. Q: Were there any notorious badmen and law officers in this area? A: Yeah! ; My Grandfather Baird was sheriff two terms of this county, and that's my mother's father, and there were plenty of badmen and plenty of mischief a going on. I can't remember hardly, yeah, I can remember it too, barely. Grandfather Baird that was sick, got rheumatism or something, and my father sherriffed for him that winter; he did the sherriffing for him. I remember him having one man in the county they called Wilson, Lucky Joe Wilson, called him Lucky Joe. And he was a bad actor and everybody was afraid of him, I don't know why, but Lucky Joe was considered dangerous, I think, and had to be arrested. He sent my grandfather word, called him Uncle Dave, that was his name, Dave. "If you'll come after me yourself I'll go with ye, but don't send them damn little deputies, I'm not blind. " Grandfather Baird got on his horse and went over there after him by himself, everybody begging him not to go, said Lucky Joe would kill him; Lucky Joe would do this. He went over there and Lucky Joe come out and invited him in to have dinner, he went and eat dinner with him, and after dinner Grandfather said, "Well, Joe, " says, "You have to go along. " Old Joe went with him right on to jail. Not a bit of trouble. Q: Where was the jail then? �21. A: In Boone. 'Bout all there was there in Boone then was a courthouse and a jail, that's all they had. Now that story's before my day. That was handed down to me but it was right, because I know it was right. I believe he was the man. I'm not sure whether I ought to tell these old stories or not. I think he's the man that died out of jail on the doctors over there at Boone one time. Q: Lucky Joe? A: Yeah. I think it was Lucky Joe, now I won't be too sure, but he took a notion he wanted out of jail and he just died, ^hey laid him out, they had what they called cooling boards then, they laid him out there, used to have what they'd call watches or sit ups with the corpse. Anyhow, they shut Lucky Joe up in this room and all went out and he heard 'em lock the door. After they went out, Lucky Joe got up and opened the window and when they come back to look, Lucky Joe was gone. He wasn't dead after all. I think that was Lucky Joe. Q: That's pretty lucky, I'd say. A: Yeah, I've heard so many. Yeah, he said, "Aw, the doctors don't know anything about you anyhow, only what you tell them. " I guess the doctors didn't know too much back in those days. Q: Were there any doctors in this area? A: No, very few. Very few. I can remember, I don't believe there were but two doctors. I don't know whether there was any other doctor in the county or not. Dr. Phipps and Dr. Philips. Philips lived in that end of the county and �22. Phipps lived in this end. Those are the only two doctors I can remember hearing mentioned back in those days. I don't know there might have been another one, but I never heard, don't remember it. Q: Did people use doctors much then? A: No, no. They made their own teas out of roots and herbs and stuff. They didn't have much medicine except what they made at home. Q: Do you remember any roots or herbs that they used in particular? A: Yeah, sure I can remember some of them. Not too long ago, I remember one til now. People used to have a lot of sore mouth. This yellow root that grows on the bank of the river down here, I gathered it for someone a year or two ago, they sent here. You get some yellow root. This lady had had a sore mouth for, oh, just a year or two ago, and wanted to know where to get some yellow root. Q: Yellow root's the name of it? A: I don't know whether it is or not. It's what I call it. I guess there's some other name for it, I don't know. Q: Do you remember any other roots and herbs that they might have used? A: Yeah. They made lots of sassafrass tea out of sassafrass and spricewood and catnip tea. Yeah, I can remember several of those. Q: What were they used for? What was sassafrass used for and what was catnip used for? �23. A: Hoarseness, sore throat or congestion or something like that. Q: Did people use ginseng for much here? A: Sang? Ginseng? Yeah! They hunt that yet. house where you're moving in, he was good at it. This man that lived in this He'd sell three or four hundred dollars worth of ginseng nearly every year. He'd get out here on Sundays and scour the mountains, he knew every holler, rock and spring in this country. His father was SAP.d at it and he'd been trained good at it and they'd just hunt ginseng and sell it. Made good at it. Q: What did they use if for? A: I don't know what it's for. It's high priced stuff. Q: So people around here really didn't use it much, they just sold it. A: Yeah, they sell it. Q: That's still going on a lot? A: Yeah, sang business is big business. high priced stuff. Not big here of course, but it's Howard Mast down here at this store, I don't know, he did, he may not no more but he did buy it for a while. Q: I know they buy it in town too. A: Yeah, they buy it. The wild, they have it cultivated, but the wild ginseng brings nearly two times the money that the cultivated does. Now I don't know why, I never knew. Oh, these old stories, I don't know. �24. Q: When did the unions start coining in? A: The union, labor union? Q: Yeah. A: I don't know. I wish to the lord it'd never been born. Q: Did you feel it much in Valle Crucis? A: No, no. Q: How did you get the news then? A: We didn't get much news other than local. referring back then. Back in those days, you're You know how we get it now, don't you? Q: Yeah. A: There wasn't much, maybe we'd get our newspaper once a week or something like that. Q: Where was the newspaper printed from? A: Well, Charlotte mostly. Charlotte. I believe the first good newspapers came from Charlotte Observer, Charlotte Times; Observer I guess was about the first one I can remember. Q: When was that? A: I don't know. Years ago. once a week. Wasn't many newspapers. You might get it �25. Q: Were people much concerned about national politics? A: No, no, wasn't much concerned about no politics 'cept at home. No, they didn't take any of it too serious. Good thing they didn't. Those were the good old days. People was honest. You could leave everything unlodked and go back home and find it like you left it. Now, you can't sleep with it and keep it. Keep everything under lock and key and that don't do much good. Q: What do you think's the cause for the difference? A: Greed, I guess, don't you? What would you think? Q: I guess so. A: I don't know how to put it any simpler, would you? Q: No, I think you've 'bout got it there. So, now tell us about when you helped start the telephones in this area. A: Oh, yeah. Well, we had a little old local system around here as long as I can remember. Them little old crank things on the wall. Did you ever see any of them.? Q: Yeah, on T. V. A: Well they had those 'bout as long as I can remember but they wasn't very, they's better than no phones. Daddy had one. There's several in the country. We couldn't hardly get into Boone or out of the valley, just call your nearer neighbors. But this new system came along, Skyline I believe is what they call �26. it, isn't it? Q: Yeah. A: And the way it all come about, I was in Boone going down one side of the street, David Farthing, his father had it, the little old system and David had been in this telephone meeting that I'd never heard of, I didn't know anything about it. When he hollored at me across the street and said, "Wait a minute, I want to see you. " Came over and he told me, says, " If you guys want a telephone, you'd better get busy. " And I asked what he meant by getting busy. Says it cost him so much to keep it up and people, lot of them didn't pay for the phones that had 'em and they's behine and David said, "Tell me, " says, "I'm not a going to break myself up nor mortgage my farm to keep up this telephone system. " Says, "What I mean and I been in a meeting down here and you have a chance of getting a telephone system that will work. " And I got him to explain it to me, REA sorta behind it or something like that, you know, in connection with the REA Electric, they got it on their poles. meeting in Boone and I went, he told me about it. Well, they had a That was the very first thing I ever heard, just fell on to me out of the clear, blue sky. I went to this meeting and the people promoting this system refused to come what they called west of the mountain, the Rich mountain over there, you know what the Rich mountain is. Q: Yeah. A: They would put it into Boone and east but they refused to come west of it. And I asked him what it would take to induce 'em to come west. They said if �27. we could get a hundred signers, a hundred telephones, they would consider it. Well, I asked him what a hundred telephones would mean, what it would take to get 'em. Took $35 deposit to get a telephone. it was our only chance. I went to work on it. miles, I don't know how much. Well, I come on home and I seen I guess I drove two or three hundred Sight on earth, though, my own car, gas and expense, and everything a selling those telephones and I had an awful time, I go t way up to 85 or 90 of 'em somewhere and I just about got burnt out and disgusted. I had an uncle that sorta half way opposed it and he said, "You're running around here selling folks things they don't need and don't want and not able to pay for. " Anyway I kept a going on with it and I got up 85 or 90 I give every man that bought a phone from me my receipt for his $35. And I turned the money in, that was a very dumb thing of me and I poured business to him but I never took any receipts, I just turned the money in. Well, the administration changed, went from one administration to the other. Q: In Boone? A: SJo, in the nation. Q: What administration was it? Which one did it change from? A: I don't remember which a way it went, but anyhow whoever went in up there in Washington held the thing up. Well, I got out here and sold all these folks telephones, majority of them Republicans, that's where your politics comes in again, me a Democrat. couple of years. They got so when they'd see me, it was held up for a "Where's our telephone? We want our telephone or we want our money. " Put me on the spot. I didn't have either one, their money nor �28. their telephone either one and we had a little meeting one day. They had a right to demand their money or a phone. One day, when I thought a bad day Saturday afternoon, I went to the store, Foscoe and a bunch of 'em in there and they commenced talking about it, "We want our money or we want our telephone. " I talked a little with 'em, I told 'em, "Why, gentlemen, I don't have either one and I don't have money enough to pay you but I'm here to write checks just as long as I've got a dime to write on. Now, who's first?" And they commenced talking among themselves a little bit and one of 'em spoke up and said, "I don't believe it's fair to make Don put up that money out of his own pocket. " I'd explained to them that I didn't have a thing to show for it and they got to talking among themselves and I told 'em, I said, "if you'll j u s t bear with us and go along with us, we'll get these phones but I can't promise you when. " After discussing it pro and con, "Well, I guess that's about the only thing to do. Say you haven't got money enough, there's no use in some of us getting money and some not. " And they just went along with me and the things come through and now every feller and his brother's got a telephone. They wouldn't part with them at all. Q: So they finally came? A: Yeah, they finally came, but it leaves me in the position of kinder being a daddy of this system, you understand? Q: Yeah, yeah. When was that? Do you remember what years that would have been? A: No, I can't remember. It's not been long, many years. We haven't had this system too long. �29. Q: Would it be like the '30's, '40's, or '50's? A: Oh, it must have been in the late '40's or early '50's, somewhere in that neighborhood. This Mrs. Ayers that died the other day up here was one of the first 'uns to take a telephone off of me. She took a telephone and plunked down here thirty-five bucks, one of the first ones. I guess I was really the first one to sign the thing, I imagine I was. Q: Were you living here then? A: Sure, yeah. I guess my sisters was about the next 'uns, a working up the road. Q: What kind of operation were you running here on the farm? A: Oh, I've done a little of all of it: livestock, crops, and produce to general crops. Sheep and cattle was my first start. Did that for a number of years, I have some things out there in the garage that the bank gave me for being, go out there and read 'em, they'll tell you better than I can, couple of them. One of 'em was on sheep, livestock and other one was on the first man in the country to grow 135 bushels of corn an acre, I think. They gave me something. Wanted me to put 'em up out here at the road and I wouldn't do it, I stuck 'em up out in the garage. Wasn't trying to advertise because you had a little streak of good luck one year, might have had bad luck next year. make a little this year and lose it next year. on the face of the earth. Q: Hew do you mean? That's the farmer luck; you Farmer's the biggest gambter Did you ever think about it ; �30. A: Takes more chances than any other one man. You gamble again' Nature. When you're farming, you plant a crop a hoping to do something but it takes twelve months to find out. If you play your money on a horse race here you know in a few minutes, but if I play my money in a big crop down here in the field, I've got the hailstorms, the windstorms, the floods, the drought, I'm a gambling again1 Nature. Q: Does the amount of money you'll make on a certain crop change a lot from year to year? A: Oh yeah, you might make some this year and lose it next on the same crop. Yeah. I did very well in the vegetable business, that is, I didn't go to the poor house on it. What I did, when I went to growing potatoes and beans, they call it majoring in school, I don't know what you'd call it on a farm, but I went to cropping; let my livestock slip. I sold my sheep. Well the dogs ran me out of the sheep business, I just drifted down on them and played vegetables along here several years, paid off and did very well through the Second World War period. them. They were clammering for something to eat. I did very well through Now then I played out of cattle or out of vegetables, I did, two years ago, quit that, drifting back towards livestock. Now I'm going to try to finish out with livestock a little bit. Q: Who sheared the sheep when you used to deal in sheep? A: They used to be some men in the county that made a business of it. Q: Traveling about from farm to farm where they could work sheep? �31. A: Yeah, yeah. We had a man in the community, he's dead and gone now, by the name of George Lester. He's almost a professional sheep shearer. He could shear sheep, did a good job. Q: How were the sheep sheared before electric equipment? A: I've a hand shearer up there and a pair out here too. I can show you the very first ones that they used. They clipped 'em by hand this a way and this one up here I have, it turns with a crank. Clippers they call it. And then the electric one, I had an electric one. My uncle and I bought an electric shearing machine together. And I finally let, I don't know, Frank may have it down there yet, I don't know. Q: When did electricity come in here? A: Our first 'lectricity here came from the dam up the river yonder. You remember seeing that ol' broken down dam up there right this side of Hound Ears on'the river? Q: Yeah. A:. Well, that was where the power plant was, way down the road here just off below the road right on the bank of the river. And the '40 flood wiped that all out, the power plant. Most of it stopped over here in my bottom, awful lot of it. Q: The dam and the equipment, the power plant? �32. A: Some of it. Stopped right over here in my bottom, that great big metal iron thing as big as, oh, these two rows put 'together. I had to get a settling torch and the man worked nearly a week cutting that thing up 'til I could load it and haul it out. I have a picture of it somewhere. I climbed up on it and was sitting there when George Farthing made my picture. It should be here someplace. Q: When did electricity come in? A: Well, it had come in before '40. We got it from that little old dam up there. I don't know, in the thirties, late thirties I guess it was. thirties. That all washed out and washed away. Sometime in the This system that has it now, whatever it is, Blue Ridge Electric? They rebuilt it and took over after that system went out by the '40 flood. Q: How did it get started? Was it part of that government funding that got the electricity and the dam started? A: That first one? Q: Yeah. A: No, I don't thing it was. I think it was a local concern. What did they call that, Blowing Rock Electric or something? I don't rmemeber what they called it. It wasn't much service. It was just little better than none. Q: During the Depression how much did the government, like the national goverment function in here? I mean how much help was given by the national government to hereJ? �33. A: I wouldn't know. Q: Did the Depression affect you very greatly here? A: Yes ma'am. I'd go farther for a dime in those days than I would for a dollar now. A dollar's easier got than a dime was then, and worth more when you got it. Maybe that's a little far fetched. Q: I remember you told me that there was a time when money just wasn't changing hands that much, it was what you grew on your farm. A: That's right, by golly there just wasn't any money hardly. Q: By the time of the Depression were you using money more and missing it more ? A: You didn't have any. Couldn't miss it much because you didn't have any. Q: Before the Depression, was money being used more than, say, crops and barter? A: Aw, was it ever. If thre's any way in the world to get along, use what little money we had and any barter we could stir up. Yeah it was tough times. I remember one time it took every hoof that we could rake and scrape on this farm to pay our taxes. Q: Every hoof of what? A: Cattle and sheep or anything we could sell to -even pay my taxes. Now that was a pretty tough time. �34. Q: How much was taxes running then? A: Oh, I don't remember. Probably half as much. Not like they are now. Not near what they are now. I just remember we have to save about every dime we got all the year to have money enough to pay our taxes. Q: Doesn't seem quite fair, does it? A: No, your tax had to be paid. You have to pay them. If you didn't pay em, they'll advertise ya and sell ya out. Q: But it seems like if you gotta pay more taxes than you do towards your own living, it's not quite fair. It seems like if you're paying more taxes to the government than you are to your own living; if you have to pay more money to the government than you can pay yourself, it's a little too much. Did any families around here go out during the Depression; did they have to sell out because of taxes? A: No, no. I don't remember anybody being sold out for taxes. Yeah, there were, there is yet, not around here though I don't think. Ever once in a while you see something advertised for taxes. Q: How did the Depression affect your daily life, like getting shoes or things like that? How did it affect your children and family? A: Well, we got along on what we had. We just had to get along on less. We didn't get everything we wanted. Like Uncle Billy Caringer used to say, "it was good we didn't want everything we seen. " Maybe that helped some. Now �35. a days people wants about everything they see. Q: Did you have to work any other jobs beside your farming to make ends meet? A: No, I don't remember doing' that. Oh, I'd log, yeah. I'd do logging' and lumber but that was off of the farm here usually. Q: Sell your farm you mean? A: Yeah, yeah. I did lots of that. Q: Did you ever hear about any of the government projects like the WPA and the CCC? A: Lord, did I ever hear 'em. The WPA built this road out here just about it. Yes sir, the country was full of WPA hand. That was a fraud, ever I ne'er saw. That WPA gang made me sick. Q: Why? A: Way they piddled along. Q: They didn't have to work hard? A: No, never earned their money. More or less of a dole the way I figured it. Q: Where were they living when they worked on the roads? A: At home, what homes they had. Anywhere around here in these hills. �36. Q: What kind of things did they do, was it mostly building roads and all, that you remember? What kind of things do you remember them doing for the WPA? A: What did they use you mean, the tools? Q: Well, no. Whad did they do? I know they built roads, what else did they do or did they do anything other than build roads ? A: The road building was about all I know of. They might have had other WPA projects a going but I didn't know anything about 'em. Q: Do you remember the Parkway coming in? The Blue Ridge Parkway? A: Sure, sure I remember the Parkway. Bob Dalton is the daddy of the Parkway through here. You've heard of R. L. Dalton. He was one of the oldest congressmen in Washington for years. He's one of the old timer big shots up there, like Sam Ervin is now. You read about Sam Ervin? Well, Bob Dalton, they listened to Bob Dalton then like they do to Sam Ervin today. And Bob Dalton, I don't know how, but my wife was related to the Daltons. When she was up in Washington, Bob Dalton was there and they called her Bobby after Bob Dalton because she looked like him. Reba, Bob Dalton1 s daughter just passed away, it was in last week's Democrat. Did you read it, Jane? Q: No. A: Well, I knew Reba well. I know Hort and Claude. They had the three children. They all visited in our home up here. Reba was there, oh just two or three years ago she come by here to see Boyd. She and Boyd were �37. relation. She was Bob Dalton's daughter an.c£ they were related and now then Claude and Hort and Reba, Mr. and Mrs. Dalton, they're all gone, the Dalton family's gone. Q: I don't know my history well but did the TVA have much effect here? Or was that all in Tennessee? A: I don't recall anything about that affecting this section. I don't recall anything. Q: Did you have to cut down on the people you could hire and did thegirls, your daughters, work in the fields with you more than during prosperous times during the Depression? A: They worked in'the field a lot when I's in beans and vegetables. yea, I had hands here from all over the county nearly. Law, Truckes a running from Elk, I had two trucks hauling hands from down in Elk, east of Boone. You've heard of Elk?i Q: Yeah. A: I had one hauling hands from the Beech Mountain and Banner Elk country and I had one or two hauling out of Grandfather country up here. I don't remember, Boyd and Bill Leek lived here then. son and Bill helped out a lot. We had hands, Bill was my sister's Boyd and Bill run the bean picking end of it. I was out most, took me all night selling beans and I was out in the night and I had to sleep a little. I remember Boyd saying, I think she said seventy-five hands one day was the top number down there. We had 'em all the way from a half �38. a dozen to seventy-five in here picking beans. Q: Who would drive those trucks? A: Well, I drove it. Q: Oh, you'd go haul the hands in and take 'em back? A: Oh, those coming in? Q: Yeah. A: No, men that lived in those sections of the country. I had them trucking. They'd get up their own load, say they come from Elk down there, had a man by the name of Watsonlived down there. The other man, I had two of 'em coming out of there, Carlton and Watson. They'd hunt up these hands themselves and I'd give them so much for bring in the hands. They'd bring 'em in and work their bunch of hands, say a man brought in twenty on his truck. He would work that twenty in the field, would make him oversee his own gang and then would pay him so much for bringing the hands in and taking 'em home. Q: Do you know of any farms around here that still have an operation to such an extent that they have to bring in hands ? A: No. Nothing like that now. I don't know of a thing like that. Q: When did that stop? A: I doubt whether there's a thing like that operation in the county or not. �39. Q: When did that stop? When did the farm start getting smaller? A: Stopped, oh, not long after the second World War. When they were pushing so hard for the war. Q: And then what happened? A: Well, we just drifted off into this general trend, what I've told you. Q: You do like a smaller area of beans and a smaller area of cabbage so you can take care of it all pretty much with less people. A: Yeah, I drifted out of vegetables, back into livestock and I've been a drifting along with livestock since, doing no good. Make a little money one year and lose it the next. Q: You think the smaller farm will ever have a revival? A: I wouldn't know. business. I think each way, you change your mind ever which Advocating here a few years ago to either get bigger or get out. You might have seen something to that effect. out. It was either get bigger or get This is not a farming country here no way. Q: Anymore? A: No, this isn't a farming county, Law, no. Q: Would you say that it ever was really a farming country? In the mountains? A: Yeah, back in the days when there wasn't any big farming. It was all small �40. farming. People made a living. Q: And I guess your farm was like supplying people in a smaller area, whereas now a days the trucks have to go all over the country, when they get ~ a truckload of canned beans they might go all the way to California with them or something, whereas those days they didn't. A: No, they didn't have to go so far. We had canneries nearer. The bean market was in Mountain City and they got one in Boone after that and they got one in Jefferson. You let one thing start off and do very well at it for a year or two, anything that you make a little money at, then the others will all jump in and try to get their fingers into the pie. Have you noticed that? I happened to be in with Mountain City when the bean market started over there, in fact I got a little share in it, I just stuck to Mountain City. Q: Are there still markets in Mountain City and West Jeffer-son now? A: I don't know whether they're buying beans there or not. I quit and forgot about the beans. There wouldn't be any way now to get 'em fixed. I'd like to see ya get seventy-five hands down here now. Money couldn't get 'em. Q: Do you remember during the Depression any banks closing around here or stores closing up? A: Yeah, seemed like there was a little bank in Boone that folded up, they called it the People's Bank I believe. up. I'm not too sure but I believe that folded I think they started a little bank over there they called the People's Bank and I don't know whether the Depression was responsible for it or not, but �41. I imagine it was. Q: Did any stores have to close down? A: I don't remember any at the moment. Q: Was there more of a feeling during the Depression of neighbors helping neighbors rather than there is now? A: I believe they were a little better to cooperate in that respect. I've always had good neighbors. I could go out most anytime and get some of my neighbors, if I's in a pinch, I could get help. Q: When did the recreation aspect of tourists start coming in? A: Law, they had tourists before they ever got to.. . , they didn't know the word tourist, I reckon. It was 'bout as long ago as I can remember, better homes of the community kept what they called 'em then, boarders. Summer people that had a little money and wanted to get out of the hot weather down south, come up to the mountains. And the various homes would take in a few, whatever they could handle. My mother up here used to keep, well, she 'tised to could take care of fifty or twenty boarders and had hired help. Aunt Josie Mast do the same, and Aunt Vick Taylor. The better homes would take these folks in. There wasn't no motels those days and mighty few hotels. And that was way back yonder, quite a while ago. Aunt Josie. Q: What would they do during the day? Yeah, mother used to keep 'em and �42. A: Aw, they'd fish a little, some of 'em. Some of 'em hike a little. Q: Watch ya'll work? A: Yeah, and lay around in the shade mostly and watch the rest of us work, make a living for it. Q: Where did they come from? A: Down anywhere, down the country where it's hot weather or be hot. Most of 'em out of South Carolina and southern Georgia and down in there where it's hot; get out of the heat. They wouldn't stay long; they couldn't afford it I don't reckon. They's all comin' and a goin', it was just to come and a go. You'd get application like you wanted some one come next week, three in a party or four or something. You might have three or four going out and you could take 'em in on a certain date; keep filled up as you could. It was just a constant thing. Q: Did that continue during the Depression? A: Not much. People too hard up. Didn't have anything to board on. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ira Donald Shull, March 27, 1973 Description An account of the resource Ira Shull was born November 8, 1892 in Valle Crucis, North Carolina on a farm where he grew up. During his young adult life, he moved out west to the Washington area, specifically Spokane where he worked on a ranch. Mr. Shull had a hand in bringing telephone lines to the Boone area in the 1940s. Mr. Shull refers back to his childhood and community life in Valle Crucis including politics, transportation, postal service, outlaws, and homemade remedies. He goes into detail about his experience farming livestock and crops. Mr. Shull also talks in detail about the Great Depression including the WPA projects going on at that time. He shares stories of outlaws and the Civil War his grandfather shared with him as a child. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hallstrom, Jane Shull, Ira Donald Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/27/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 44 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape50_IraDonaldShull_1973_03_27M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Valle Crucis, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--19th century Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Ranch life--Washington--Spokane Boone Civil War Great Depression outlaws telephone Valle Crucis Washington WPA https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f9490a75be15171c2f7ba6c3d8e6729c.pdf 682cac02b90053df266c2cbf2042bc0d PDF Text Text This is an interview with Mr. Hade Smith by Joy Lamm on April 1, 1973. tape is for the Appalachian Oral History Project. The Mr. Smith lives in Valle Crucis, North Carolina. Q: Whatsis your wife's name? A: Mildred Q: How long have you lived in the Valle Crucis area? A: Well, I was born and reared in this area right on this placei Q: When were yourborn? A: 1920 Q: And you were born right on the same land? A: Yes, I lived in a log house about 500 yards right back of this one. Q: What did your daddy do? A: Farm. Q: What did you all farm? A: We raised truck crops: Cabbage, potatoes, beans, and had alittle livestock and tobacco. Q: And you had truck crops back then? A: Well I just started off... I guess you might say I'm a little bit inclined toward woodwork, and I started off helping build houses. I started off actuilly remodeling them; this is the first house that I attempted to try. Q: You built the whole house? A: Well, principally I did get a man to help me lay the blocks and get it enclosed, but it is the first one I ever tried, and then I started off working... I worked part time, maybe help build, one house a year, or remodel a couple, still pursuing farming alittle. Q: Now, did you start the building after you came out of the service? �A: Yes, all this after I came out of the service. I was eighteen. I went into the service when About all the work I had done then was home on the farm, and a little bit of work with the school, working for the local people, odd jobs. My brother-in-law and me worked together a bigger part of the time and sometimes we would work two to five men, and we would build about five or ten years. I Suppose and then it go so hard to keep competent labor and we didn't contract scarcely. Once in awhile we would take a little contract job, but we just built for people and they would come and contract us, want us to d<s it on an hourly basis, get our price and so forth- do it that way. But it got so hard to keep -competent labor that way., The big building boom started in Boone, we started working for contractors, laying bricks, blocks, on the dormitories, courthouse, and those high-rise dormitories, the bookstore and such. Q: Now when did the building start? A: Well, the bigger part of it, I'd say, 15 years ago. biggest impact, faster growing one. anymore. The one that made the You can hardly find a competent person If you find one he has the very best wages that they will pay and they will keep him for that reason, and then, just immediately....well it was the winter after we built the Courthouse and the bookstore that I was contracted, wanting to know if I'd be interested in -taK,™ a job in Madison. It was in the dead of winter and building was slow at that time. finally reluctantly agreed to take it on a trail basis. Green? Why, I You know Mr. Ralph He was the, well, there was no chief magistrate appointed in the county, but he was our main stake, so to speak. He had had quite a little bit of knowledge of legal work through postal inspection and they got him a as one of the first magistrates and they had contracted two or three others, couple of them had gone to school and they backed out, so as a last resort. I started working as theat andl worked at that. IdLdwork with Miller's a little bit two or three days a week of the first year I worked as a magistrate. �Q: Well, Now what does a magistrate do? A: We write warrants, issue all warrants in the event that there is no magistrate available ?or some reason that they might be required to be out of the county and out of the office. Clerk of court of some of the judges would issue the necessary, would issue all warrants, set books and write up bonds, take waiver, take payment on'any waiverable events, fines, costs, thake acknowledgements on different instruments, perform liiarEiage cermonies, write up years allowance for surviving spouses and I guess thats pretty good general coverage of it. Q: Do you have to get up and go down there whenever they call? A: No, not unless I'm on call. of our calls. We have a man, Mr. McNeal, who takes the majority The only time we have office^hours on the weekend is from 7 to 2 on Fridays and Saturdays nights and then Mr. McNeal accepts the calls most of the rest of the time. We work it out at times so that I take a little and Mr. takes some. Q; What do you think is more interesting about your work as magistrate? A: Just meeting a cross section of the people from, you might say, all states, especially due to the fact that we have such a wide representation through the university. We meet quite a lot of the professors under some of these. We do get one occasionally"that we charge, but through traffic violations and just very minor; we do meet alot of people from what I say practically every -?r state and from every walk of life, so to speak, and well the good points out weigh the bad ones. I have made some rare acquaintances, some with millionaires and then some with paupers, and then some with nothing but natural born criminals, I guess I will always be. I know one night we had a man brought in, and Charles contacted me because he had the service of all the other lawyers in Boone, so we called Charles and before that I had to give the man 10 days in jail, and Mr. Larriter was his attorney, so Mr. Larriter gave me a pretty hard time. That fellow was so helligrant and arrogant, he starts a very vicious fight right in the jail. �Q: You mean a physical fight? A: Yes, he tore Gary Morgan's uniform off of him three times that night.. He had to change clothes three times. I gave him ten days in jail and Mr. Larriter, he tried to twist my arm every way in the worj.d to get me to recend that 10 day contempt charge, and I don't think I did it through stubbornness at all, even the Dean of Men at the college tried to get me to, but it just happened so that Dean Brooks was present and say it all and I first said I was going to give him 30 days and when I wrote it up I gave him 10 and Dean Brooks wahen I read it to him or had it read to him, Dean Brooks said" I though you said 30 days?" Brooks, If 10 days doesn't help him any 30 want either. just make it ten, Tbut I wouldn!£. Well, Dean So I thought I would I did finally work out an arrangement where I let him serve it on weekends in order to let him be able to stay in school, but it didn't go so will with Mr. Larriter, and we weren't as good friends , Didn't seem like--Mr. Larriter would sit around and talk with me or any thing like that, after. But Charles came up that night in behalf of this boy, and... Q: The same boy? A: No, it was a different one, so I just asked him very abruptly what he wanted me to do. I just figured it was another larriter deal, and with the other-guy. So Charles very appropri&V^y said, '•' I am not going to ask you to do anything, I just want some information." And it is amazing how something like that can develope respect for people. We do run into some instances over there that that I believe even our attorneys aren't aware of the seriousness of them. '-> •- Because of the conditions, there are things that you just can't overlook, and if I were to give a man 2 to 10 days and then turn around change my mind". ad say "Well no I It wouldn't look good on my records and first thing you know, I think people would loose respect for me. I have been very hesitant, very reluctant to give any one any active time. It is usaully the last resort to the person that has times. been warned eight or ten �THis fellow called me this morning, the officer told me this morning that If I had gotten to the jail when they first called me, they were confident that he would. have got some time. But they had been able to weas? him out, or get him unwound to extent that he didn't annoy me too much. I had to lay it down pretty clean to him, I thought I'd give him a couple of days after calling me is I'd been able. Q: What is the worst criminal that you can remember having dealings with? A: Well, I don't know Mrs. Lamm. I drew all the writings all the warrants on the Durham case-. I thought that was the most serious. murder warrants that day. I wrote 12 first degree I wrote three for each one, because each one was charged with killing the three. So we charged them individually with the killings of Jennie, Bryce, and Bobby. Q: W hen was this? A: It was about a year ago. I happened in February (Feb. $) and it was about 60 days later that the warrants were written. Q: Well, they weren't in jail were they? A: At one time, all of them. They were brought here and immediately moved. One of them stayed quite a while, possibly two of them, but they were kept under tight security. Q: How did you get the information to write the warrants? A: The sheriff, SBI agents presented it to me. They had compiled from their investigation and then the sheriff himself presented it directly for the writing them up. He was the one that actually had the warrant written in his name and he was in charge of all the information they had obtained. Q: Do you have any idea how they came about getting the evidence they had? A: No, I don't have any first hand information at all as to how they did'it. did have a little bit of information given me, but the way they went about obtaining it, I don't know. It was a long, tedious, drawn out process and I �and evidently they weren't too successful"in it. There was one other time, talking about the seriousness of charges, I guess I have written up more murder warrants in the last four years and four months than all the other magistrates together, I said something the other day. I believe that it's 23 murder warrants I've written since I have been over there, and I believe that this is the only one where a person was charged with more than one murder. But somehow they just fall in my lot to get most of the murder warrants. Q: Bo you have to talk to the person that is charged? A: No, not necessarily. brought before me. On a felontl charge, quite a few of them are not even I don't set bond on a felony charge. Thats left up to the district judge and solicitor for them to judge the criminal. and usually has it:in his court. He conducts it, • We set bond on anything other than capital, I said felony, anything other than capital felony, capital crime. On any other kinds of crimes, we set them all. Q: Do you think crime is increasing in this area or is there a chknge in the kinds of crimes? A: Well, thats hard to say. It's on the increase, of course I don't mean to say now on the increase in the last 3 months or 6 months, nothing like that to a great extent. In comparision to the per capita, probably is going to be more. Naturally, we've got more crime than we had. is a little down. It's starting to be bad. I think our road problem, crime Many more times road charges in the last year than we had over a two-year period. THe first year that I worked, I can't remember for sure that we had over one road charge. wrecks. Just not many Then the next year, last week we probably had fifty. fantastic. That's just Not many wrecks go by. Q: What about robberies and murders? A: Well, our murder rate hasn't been high. I don't think in this county. them I guess has been manslaughter, wouldn't they Charles? Most of We have had two or �three tried for second degree murder, I guess. Second or third for manslaughter, where they have been people died as a result of the crime, but I don't think its high for our county, compared to others. Murder and robberies, we had,a rash of misdemeanois not misdemeanors, that was robberies. ago. It'lasted about a year. Somewhere within 18 months They were not too many of them. I remember two or three service stations were robbed or attempted to be robbed. And I think they got policemen on it. that nature, That's hard to believe, but about three of four of them of We had an awful lot of breaking and enterings, larcenies such as that, misdemeanors especially. petty theif. There were an awful lot of students involved in"that stuff, It amounts to misdemeanor charges. And then our big, I tktnk our most serious problem is breaking and entering and larceny, don't you, Charles, because we are in this area where we have so many summer homes due to out tourists and the sports attractions that we have, the skis, the skiing areas and all. just a summer home area. We're People are away from there homes an awful lot. We had a breaking and entering yesterday or night before last, I guess it was. I don't fr* know if the investigation been completed yet, but it was break »^ .Cove Creek School, /\g students or students aids he charge, it will probably be a misdemeanor. But that is very common place around here. Q: Yeah, I was going to ask you what the effect the tourists and the development and all this had had. A: That always contributes to i-f, because the people are away from home, and they don't really secure their-property against a thief. against a thief properly. You can't secure property And then there are alot of people that just don't know how "to do it, even, what you might say the most essential methods of trying to secure in absence of tenants of people of residence. Q: Doesn't the old saying go that locks are for nice people? A: That's right. You can'lock your front door and if an honest person comes, he'll �8 knock on the door an if it's locked , most of them want even find out if it is locked. They don't get an answer they just leave on away. If a kid comes in and the doors locked and he's from a good family, he finds the door locked and he is a little inquisitive, usually he want pick the lock. But then if I put a secure lock, on this door, why all the theives would have to do is reach in and knock the glass out and come through and go around and get something. Q: Well, are most of your crimes committed by local people of students or outsiders? A: Well, the misdemeanors, larcenies, I would say they're about half and half, or we have quite a lot with , well I wouldn't say the college students would be half of it, but the high school student. Just the people I would say in the age bracket fnom 12 to 25. We have very few, other than just what I call just simply criminal people, criminal minded people that do these. Now you can go out to the school house or some of the other places where we've had breaking and entering and they'll take a truck over there and try to loud them up. as that is cone by professional criminals, or so I call them that. Such These misdemeanors, larcenies, petty thievery aid stuff like that are just by a group of young that are out for a time and they don't care what they do. been taught alot. social They haven't They come from the lower class people, most of them are on , vje-l-pa'-e-- , and it they see something they want they can't go ahead and buy, or any how that's what they reject to. It's theirs if they want it. Q: As far as their responsibilities towards other people. I just wondered felt about the changes in the area and the people. how you I know the communities used to be very small and closed in and relatively isolated from one another, and now people just come in from all over the United States and the people in the communities are very scattered. I just wondered if that has.... A: I don't know whether their values have changed or not, due to the fact that we have been moving at such a fast rate of speed or pace in every walk of life, but �but we don't have nearly as close contacts with our neighbors as people used to have and I think some of that is due to the fact that we have so many more. community has expanded. Our Our services to the community are public services, such as schools and such as that, they have been consolidated and extended. So many people come together in mass rather than in the small groups, where it uded to be. Now, I was educated, I say educated, I went to school. eehool house. I started off in a old two-room The first four grades, the first three grades of the elementary school was in the upstairs of an old two-room school house. The foucth through seventh three grades of elementary school was cone in the lower parfe, where you have the heat by two wood stoves. I don't know, I guess out total enrollment for the school was about I'd say average was around thirty students so you can see there is a big difference there now. Our elementary schools are conscblidated and there they have approximately 360 in Valle Crucis (can't understand) course takes care of the county. Then out high school of So, I think some of those things have changed to the extent that i6 is a (can't understand) but I don't know just how to relate them. I think people have as much concern as they used to have, but"they just ha^e a different way of expressing their concern. (Can't understand) Q: How do you feel about (can't understand). How do you feel about the developement that's taking place and all the people that are coming in. A: Well Q: Honestly A: That puts me on the spot. Q: Dovyou, can you, have you thought about how you feel about all the people coming j(Horn blows) Excuse me. in from other places and all the development? A: Well, let me sit back down. Q: O.K. A: In many respects I think it is good and it is going'to be good for our ecomomy, �10 and we are experiencing a lot of this new progress fsjom different fields all over the country. It has brought in a lot of undesirable things and yet we look at it another way, it will be very helpful. my feelings toward it. I don't know exactly how to tell you I guess in most of these things the good outweighs the bad, so regardless of how £ou look at it, especially in a view of progress it had been helpful. But on the other hand it has taken an awful lot from the individuality of the peole in the local areas, especially in the little out of the way places such as this, where you are isolated to a certain extent by the mountains and the type . roads, access we have too, but I just be afraid to answer you anymore in detail. Q! Well, do you think farming as an occupation is going to disappear entirely? Q: Right in this immediate area it is because we just don't have agricultural land suitable to compete, to seperate a farm in any competitive way. the one thing that hurts. Our way of life has changed so much, there's so many of us, due to the progress I guess. End of AOHP tape 52. That's �Tape 53 A: 11 As I started to say there, there are so many things that are required now as a part of our livlihood tihat we can't depend on the type of living that we had 25 or 30 years ago. Things are so highly competitive in an area like this, that it really would be out of the question. Now, there are a few farms in the county where people can make a pretty g'ood living at the time, but they have so many, there are so many other monetary advantages from other occupations 'where they can use farming as a sideline business,'Cattle farming, -is very good or you might say, grow crops. Q: So you think it will be possible to have kind of like a home farm, or a farm addition? A: Yes, there are going to be a few people not many. a feed place. to him. If .nothing else, they'll have ( someone not on the tape is hammering, Mr. Smith stops to talk The interview resumes after the hammering" has stopped). Q: What is this an old puzzle? A: That's one that my wife picked up somewhere and she had me make the duplicate of it some time ago to give someone and she's wanting me to make her that a wooden, what you call it, the x's and o's tic tac toe. This woodworks a little bit of my hobby, so I carve out stuff like that^and she wanted a, She said she wanted me to make her a tic tac toe board about 12 inches . Q: Would you like to tell me about some of these, and then we can take some pictures as we'11 know what is what. A: Yeah, I don't know. Are you interested in all of them? Q: Yeah, I don't know any of them-are. A: Don't know what would go back to the most ancient, but well this old;thing sittingrover in the corner there, that is a war battle loom, the old handmade loom, where they used to weave clothes on. Somewhere they laced each individual thread of the fabric between those little spacers of dividers there. I've seen them when the weavings done. I'm not too, You can still see it done in some of �12 the craft shops. out. I'm not farailar with that enough to tell you what it did come That came out of my wife's grandmother's. I think it was* and she kept it. Q: What are they made of? These are some kind of reeds of something? A: I guess that is a type of reed. Q: Charles, why don't you take pictures of these while were. I'm not sure what it is. Do you know how to— It has only one thing to adjust. A: Now, this evidently has been. it's been worn out. these. I started to say it hasabeen prepared, I guess But you see, this has been, unwrapped between each one of This is a cord of somevkind. Then it has had this cover sewn over it, here of course it's been taken off on this side. tell that. Q: I am sorry Charles. This is handmade. You can Did I move it wrong? O.K. get it while it is turned up this way. Come get it close up. Get it close up.. Charles: Q: Well, you don't have to. its A: If I get it any closer, I won't get it at all. You have to turn it more. You have to do this until . Get that part. I started to say you can tell it's handmade. I don't know what you call it. You can tell by this little, ah By this little piece at the end here. tell that is hand hued, probably with a pocketknife. You can It's had one on the other end, but this has been thrown around an old house or attic or something, Charles: A: WK^t is it? This is a war battle loom. You see, they put each individual thread through through there someway, and then they. That's all right. Just sit back down. I don't know if you have any idea what this little thing is or not. Thattis a little crude thing that they used to stir apple butter with in the old, big, brass or copper pipes. I said pipes, pots. seen hot tar when it is being cooked? Q: Yes If you've ever Have you ever �13 A: It'll bring up great big bubbles you know, and then they'll pop. Well, apple butter will do the same thing. Take a 20 or These will make that stuff boil. 30 gallon kettle and make enough to last a family half a winter for a large family. But making that stuff. I've seen it popping as high as my heacl, and they get these long handled sticks to stir the pot with so they can stand back out of range of those popping Q: , that popping, popping. Maybe we can leave those right in front and take some pictures of it some other time. Charles: A: Did the apple butter have a hole in it because of the thickness of it? Charles, I really don't know. Tttey might been just a sort of that, or it might have been to give it sort of a extra division when they were stirring it. Some pf them were solid and some of them had holes and I've seen these things with 8 foot handles, no I'm not saying they were that long. anyhow. I'll say 6 foot handles I can remember: my grandmother making apple butter in a big old copper brass kettle. And she had one with a handle/about 6 feet long. remember her making it a time or two in my life. a sheepshears, the family sheepshearc. hair ( can't understand). I seem to This is a haircutter. That The reason I bought this was to get sheep It was a little unusual. This spring in here, made like an N, Move it up a little, and I like this trademark on it. Q: Yeah, I noticed that too. A: Tells exactly what it is. it cleaned up. Looks like an acron here. This says, I didn't get You see it has shear steel, s-h-e-a-r steel. But over here now, it has a trademark that has a spread eagle, a trademark on that ribbon. is a company named J.C.W. Then here I have no idea what that was. Q: Do you know when this was made? A: No, I don't. Q: Or about how old it is? A: Those were used, oh, I don't even know how long. They had a sheep shearing outfit �14 clipper type thing that was, the power was produced by a hand crank and had a flexible cord to it, about 60 feet. No it didn't have a cord. thing with universal joints. 15 years old. End of Tape. Now, that came into use, I'd say, when I was about They started replacing these. ( Can't understand. It had a sectional However, I had a pair,of sheep clippers. Then Mr. Smith has to leave for a few minutes). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hade Smith, April 1, 1973 Description An account of the resource Hade Smith was born in Valle Crucis, North Carolina in 1920 where he was raised on a farm. Mr. Smith joined the armed service at 18 years of age and when he returned he did some odd jobs including building houses. He then became the chief magistrate of Watauga County. Mr. Smith goes into detail about his career and tells stories about local crimes he had to deal with as magistrate. Mr. Smith also talks about the changes in the area and the incoming of new community members, changing its dynamics. He then goes into great detail about his hobby of woodworking and points out a specific game he made. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamm, Joy Smith, Hade Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/1/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape52-53_HadeSmith_1973_04_01M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Valle Crucis, NC Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Local officials and employees--North Carolina--Watauga County magistrate Watauga County N.C. woodworking https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d0485fd74f5e05df52012b3553c39d89.pdf b00bf27a59c06c4a8346d18fd3cd95d9 PDF Text Text 1. This is an interview with Walter Culler for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Donna Clawson at Rainbow Trail Road on June 11,1973. Q: Grandpa Culler, where were you born? A: I was born in Boone. Q: What was the year you were born? A: 1882. Q: 1882. Where were your parents born.? A: My father was born in Wilkesboro. And I declare, honey, I don't know where my mother was born at. Q: What were your parents' names? A: John. John Culler. Q: What was your mother's name? A: Nancy. Q: Who was she before she married? A: She was a Beach. Q: When did your father come to Boone? A: I declare, honey, I don't know. Q: How many brothers and sisters did you have? �2. A: I had five sisters. I had five sisters and four boys. Well, they was six boys but two of them died in infancy. Q: Have you lived in Watauga County all your life? A: All my life. Q: How long did you go to school? A: Honey, I couldn't tell you how long I went to school. Q: How rnany months out of the year did you go when you were going to school? A: How many months in school? Oh, about three months. Q: How many different parts of Watauga County have you lived in? A: I've lived all my years in Boone Township except five years I lived in Watauga Township. Q: When was it that you moved to Watauga Township? A: I declare, honey, I don't know what year it was. Q: Was that after you were married? A: Yeah, yeah. It was after all the children were born that I moved over there. I went over there when they had that big works over there. That big timber works over there, you know. I went over there. We stayed over there five years. Then we came back here, down in the holler down there, to take care of my wife's daddy and mother. We took care of them. �3. Q: When you were a young boy did your family grow your own food? Did you live on a farm? A: Yes, we lived on a farm. All my childhood days, we lived on a farm. Q: What kind of work did you have to do around the farm? A: Oh well, different kinds of work. We done all the farming. Planted potatoes, corn, and rye and wheat, like that cabbage. Q: What was your biggest money-making crop? A: Well, our biggest money-making crop was corn. Q: Where did you sell it? A: We didn't sell it. We used it. We never sold no corn. We just made enough for us to live on. That's what we had to live on then. living on our farms. here. We had to make our On, we'd go to the store and buy what we couldn't make W e ' d go to the store and buy that. But what we could make on the farm, why, we'd use that. Q: What kinds of jobs have you had throughout your life? A: Well, my biggest job I've had throughout my life was a carpenter. Q: I've seen some of your work. A: Last house I built was Joe Miller's house down there. house I built. Except this one. I built this one. That's the last �Q: Have you been a carpenter most of your life? A: Most of my life I've been a carpenter. Q: Have you ever had a hard time getting a job? A: No. I never had a hard time getting a job. Q: Can you see any way that work has changed over the years? A: Yes. Q: What ways are they? A: Well, I don't know, honey, hardly what to tell you about that. Of course the carpenter work has changed a whole lot from what it used to be, you know. Used to, we just had to do it all by these here (indicates his hands) you know, just main strength. Now they got that machinery, you know, and they can do most of that work with that machinery now. We didn't have that then. We just had to do all that work with our hands. Q: What year did you get married? A: The year 1900. Q: What was Granny Culler's name before she married you? A: What was her name? Q: Wasn't she a Hodges? �5. A: Yeah, fa Hodges. Minerva Hodges. Q: Where was she from? Was she fromaround here too? A: She was born over on Meat Camp. Q: How many children did you have? A: We had five. One little girl died when she was twenty months old. Q: What are your children's names? A: The oldest one's Vance, then Tracy, then James, and then the little girl that died, and Beulah. Q: Do you remember how much schooling your children had? Did they go to school mic h? A: No, they just got a common school education. Back then, we just had about three months of school a year, you know. Q: Do you think children are brought up the same way now that they were when you were bringing up your children? A: No, I don't. Q: What ways are different about the way they're brought up? A: Well, the difference is that then children would do just exactly what their parents said to do, and now the children do about what they want to do. We had to obey our parents, and if we didn't we got a whooping for it. �Q: You don't see too much of that anymore, do you? A: Don't see much of that anymore. Q: That's right. Can you remember any of the disasters around this area, like the 1916 flood? A: No, not that I know of. Q: Or the one in 1940? A: I don't remember that, about what time it was. flood through here in the 1940's. didn't put them down. They was a right smart I can't remember the dates or nothing. I I don't allow nobody did. Q: I guess you weren't affected by the flood too much then, were you? A: No, we wasn't affected by them. The greatest flood that we've had here was the time it washed those folks away down the other side of the mountain, a few years back. I've got the history of it here. A woman wrote it down there and had it printed in a book and I've got one of them. Q: What kind of churches have been in this area, like were they mostly one kind or the other? A: Most of the churches, back in my time, was Baptist. Boone , lived in Boone till I was twelve years old. I was born in Then my father bought a piece of land back here on the mountain and we moved back there then. there when I was married, 1900. I was living �7. Q: Do you think that the churches today are the same that they were when you were younger? A: No. Q: How are they different now? A: Well, the difference between now and then is the difference between the members of the church attending the church. Back then, if you didn't attend that church why you went out. Now, they can just do what they please and stay in church. You had to obey those church rules. They was strict on it. Throw you out if you didn't obey them. Q: What are some of the things that people got thrown out of church for doing? A: Well, most of the people, honey, got thrown out of the church for non-attendance. Those church rules said, the Baptist church rules now, I don't know nothing about them other churches. But in a Baptist church the rules said if you miss three meeting times they'll come and see you. And what's the matter, and if you ain't able to attend the church you're free. can't attend it, why you was free of that. Or if something happens that you But you didn't stop going just cause you didn't want to go, they'd tell you now next meeting time if you ain't there we're going to turn you out. And if you wasn't there, out you went. See how strict them rules was back then? If we used them no they wouldn't be nobody in the church would they? Q: What about things like cussing and lyingchurch for things like that? Did people get thrown out of �A: Yeah, yeah. Throw you out for lying. You had to walk those church rules if you stayed in there. Q: Do you think that made a better church, for people to obey the rules? A: Yeah. When we disobey them church rules we're disobeying what that Book says. I've read that Book through five times. Q: I'm sure you've lived it too. A: I've tried to. Q: Was there any way,to get back in the church after you got thrown out? A: Oh, yes. You go back there and make your acknowledgement to the church, why they'd forgive you and take you back. If they hadn't, it wouldn't of been according to the Bible. God'11 forgive us for our disobedience if we'll come and ask Him to. If we ask Himwith a repentant heart. Just go and tell I'm going to do this, that, and the other. He won't pay any attention to that. You come to Him and repent about what you've done and then He'll forgive you and you can go back to the church. Put you back in the church. Q: Do you know how this community got its name, Rainbow Trail Road? Do you know how that name came about? A: Well, it's been Rainbow Trail for, let's see, about I guess twenty years ago. It was Rainbow Trail Road when I came back fromShulls Mills when I lived overthere, I came back over here to take care of my wife's daddy and mother. They were building this old railroad went around here where they got that �9. timber out up in here, you know. And they called it Rainbow Trail because of that train coming in here. That's been about twenty years ago. Q: How has this community changed over the years? A: Oh well, the community has changed a whole lot. There was nobody living here then, much. Nobody lived past, Gov Lane, they lived right down in a house down in the woods there. That was about all the folks that lived here except my wife's daddy andmother. They lived down in the holler down here. When we moved in here, that was about all. know if they lived in here then. And Ed Hardy's, let's see, I don't I don't know if his father lived in here when we moved in or not. I believe he did. He had a little log house right down there. But that's about all the houses tkoAt were in here then. Q: How did you get around back in those days? A: Oh, we went by wagon or horseback. We went afoot most of the time. Didn't have nothing to go in. Q: Can you remember the first car you saw? A: No, honey, I don't know what year it was. But the first car I saw was in Boone. And that car was built like a hack. I don't know whether you ever seen an old hack or not. Q: I don't know either. A: Big old hack, pulled by horses. It was made just in the shape of that. And �10. it had, the motor was in thefront end. Of course the motor's in the front end of a car yet. But the motor was in the front end, and they had a chain belt then, that would run from that motor back to that back axle back there. And it backed around that axle there and had little places on it for them chain makes a hook in. And when they started why that got to going and rolled that hind wheel. Course the hind wheel is what rolls now. But it was a lot like a chain belt. And it went about as fast as a horse could trot. That's the first car I ever seen. Q: They'll go a lot faster now, won't they? A: _,Oh Law, yes. A mile a minute now. Q: Wherewere most of the roads? Can you remember the main roads that were around here? A: No, I don't. Q: What about railroads? You just mentioned the one that ran through here. Were there any more railroads in the area? A: No. Q: Was that used just mainly to take the lumber back and forth? A: Yes. Q: Do you remember when that railroad was built? A: It was built about 1921, cause I came back here in 1922 from Shulls Mills, �11. and that railroad was, they had just built it when I came back here. Because when I came back here they were hauling those logs out of this country and back away back in here plumb back to Rich Mountain back yonder to the Bald. They went plumb back there and got all that timber in there and hauled it out here. When I come back here I worked on this old railroad here. They had a bunch of hands stayed on it all the time to keep it fixed up, you know, -"-nd I worked with that. That was 1922 when I come back here. That's when that old railroad was built. Q: How much did you get paid for working on the railroad? A: Oh, we got about a dollar a day. Q: I guess it was hard work, wasn't it? A: No, it wasn't too hard a work. Three or four of us worked on it, and the boss man along with us. ride from place, to place on it. on it; we just pushed it along. you know, We had a little old car we kept on the road to We just had to push it. We didn't have no power Going downhill we'd all jump on that thing and ride down. We kept the presses all fixed up so they wouldn't have a wreck or something. Q: Are you interested in politics of any kind? A: Yeah. (Laughter) Q: Do you remember any elections in the past? Any that stood out in your mind maybe? �12. A: Well, I don't know. I know a right smart about the elections. There's some I remember but don't know what I could say about them. Q: Can you remember anything about local elections, like county elections for sheriff, and the county officers and things like that? A: Well, I don 't know that I could. You know, when I first got to vote, the first time ever I voted, why the Democrats held this county, you know, for years and years. My generation was all Democrats and we all voted a Democrat ticket. Yeah, the Democrats held this county here for I don't know how long. I guess fifteen^or twenty years. Q: When was that? Do you remember the years that they held power? A: I don't remember the years. Q: Do you think politics today are dirtier than they were in the past? A: Yeah, they're dirty now. They're dirty. On both sides. Q: How do you think they're dirtier now? A: Well, I think one thing, the main thing about them being dirty is trying to buy people over and such stuff like that you know. My generation was all Democrats. My grandfather was a Democrat. And all our generation was. My grandfather lived to be 128. Q: My goodness! He had a long life, didn't he? Did he live around here? A: He was born and raised in Orangeburg, South Carolina. He came to Williies �13. County when he was forty years old. He rode from South Carolina on horseback to Wilkesboro. He came to Wilkesboro when he was forty years_old and married a woman there in Wilkesboro. He wasn't married till he was forty years old. He stayed there a while and then he moved to Boone and spent the rest of his life here. Well, the last few days of his life he spent, he went back down to Wilkesboro. But he spent most of his life in Watauga County. Q: What was his name? A: Benjamin. Benjamin Culler. Q: Why did he leave Orangeburg and go to Wilkesboro? A: I don't know. Now his father, his niother was a German, his father was an Englishman. His father died when he was six years old. then, you know, had a bunch of niggers. It was slave time He had 640 acres of land there, his father did, in Orangeburg, South Carolina. Course he come over from the old country there and when they come over in that time they gave them so much land. They gave him 640 acres, his father. His father died when he was six years old, and there was another boy and a girl, that's all. Three of them. Grandfather, and Uncle Frank, and Aunt Frances. That's all the children there was. He came there to Wilkesboro. He stayed there a while and then he married a woman there and came on to Watauga County. Now after I was big enough to know anything a 'tall about it, there was a Clarence Glover, a lawyer in Orangeburg, South Carolina, wrote Granddad a letter and said, "Your brother and your sister's dead, and they weren't ever married, they didn't have no children. " �14. And he said, "I want you to come down here now and take charge of this land. This 640 acres. " Granddad never did go down there. Now that 640 acres of land down in Orangeburg would of made the Cullers all rich, wouldn't it? Q: It might have. A: He didn't even go down there to see about it. Q: Well, do you know what ever happened to the land? A: No, honey, I don't know. Q: When somebody in your family got sick, what could you do for them? Could you get them to a doctor? A: Well, we had different doctors. oh, I couldn't mention them all. We had a Dr. Council and Dr. Reeves, and That old Dr. Council was the first doctor they was in Boone, over there. And then Dr. Reeves came there, I don't know how many years Dr. Reeves stayed there. There's been so many doctors in there I can't remember them now. But old Dr. Council was the main doctor there in the time of the Civil War. Q: Do you remember any stories about the Civil War that you heard your parents tell about or anything? A: No, honey. I don't know nothing about that. Only the time they came here to Boone, you know, and shot up Boone, down there. Killed three people there. I've heard them tell about that. I didn't know anything about it though. That was before I was born. But I've heard an old soldier that lived here, old man Max �15. Norris over yonder, he was one of the soldiers, I've heard him tell about it. They killed one or two of them there too. Boone cemetery, over there. I saw them buried over there at the That was the North against the South, the Civil War. Q: Do you remember hearing about any badmen or outlaws, any stories about any of them ? A: No, I don't honey. Q: I heard people mention Clarence Potter and Boone Potter. Do you remember anything about them? A: Oh, yeah. I knowed about Clarence Potter and Boone Potter. they killed him. Clarence Potter, they tried him in the court here at Boone for killing a man, and sentenced him to be electrocuted. hun him. Boone Potter, I don't really know. I reckon maybe they And he took an appeal to the Supreme Court for a new trial. And they granted him a new trial and the next trial he was clear. And then after that they had him in court up yonder again for throwing a rock through a man's window, over there in Pottertown where he live, you know. And the same judge that was there, when he come to trial for throwing that rock, the same judge was there that gave him the sentence to be electrocuted. And when they called him up there, the judge said, "Clarence, I convicted you to be electrocuted," And he said, "They pardoned you. The governor pardoned you. " And he said, "Now you're right back here before me for throwing a rock in a man's window. " And Clarence just got up there and said, "Judge, your Honor, " he said, "I never killed that man. " The judge said, "You didn't ?" "No," he said, "I didn't." The judge said, "Who killed him then? " He said, "Boone Potter killed �16. him. " "Why didn't you tell it?" Says, "I was afraid to. Boone would a killed me if I'd a told it! " See, he suffered all that time. He stayed in jail now while he was trying to make his appeal to the Supreme Court. two months, till his other trial came along. Tried him again and he come clear. you know. He stayed in jail forty- They was going to try him again. Yeah, he come clear. Told who done it, Judge said, "Why didn't you tell it?" Said, "I was afraid to. Boone would kill me if I told it. " But they finally killed Clarence. him. there. Had up a watch for Took a bunch of deputy sheriffs or sheriffs or deputies or something over Send plumb iover thereto get him. Clarence put up a fight with them and shot them and finally they shot him and killed him, Q: Were there any other outlaws or badmen in this area? A: No, not that I know of right around close here. Q: When somebody got sick or something, did you use some cures? A: I guess we used some cures. Mulligan tea. Homemade cures. Make catnip tea for colds, And different things for hoarseness, you know. Something like that. Q: Did the cures work? A: Yeah. Q: DCF you remember any folk tales or legends from around this area? A: No, I can't. �17. Q: What about mysteries? Can you think of anything that happened that never was solved? A: Well, no. Q: What about superstitions and things like that, like planting in the signs and all that kind of stuff? Did you go by that? A: Well, yeah, people went by those signs. Went by signs of the moon, and so on like that. Most people way back then, you know, would wait till the moon got in a certain place before they'd plant a crop or something like that. Q: Do you know if there's any difference in courting or sparking today than what there was when you were growing up? A: Well, I don't know. I guess there is a difference now. Looked after them more than they do now. Q: When you were courting how did you get to your girlfriend's house? A: I walked. Q: Then did you just stay around her house? A: Yes. We walked to church then, you know. Some folks had horses, they rode horseback. Most of us poor mountain folks here, we had to walk to church. Q: How far did you have to walk? A: The farthest ever we had to walk, I guess was about two miles. Some people �18. had to walk more than that. Where we lived in my boyhood time we went to church, and we lived about two miles from the church house. Q: Did you do that in the winter and all through the snow? A: Oh, yeah. We didn't care about the snow. We went right on. Q: There's a lot of people that wouldn't go now if they had to do that. A: That's the truth. Snow was so deep, why we'd take something along with us and come back that evening. Course the most of us then had to walk. have no other way of going. know. We didn't Some people had horses. They could ride, you But we didn't have horses. Q: Are there any preachers that stand out in your memory? Can you remember any of the names ? A: Yes, I can remember nearly all of them. Uncle Ed Greene, he was the pastor of Doe Ridge Church. And he was pastor of Howards Creek Church for a long time. I don't know much about any of the other churches. all the churches we ever went to. Doe Ridge and Howards Creek. That's about Oh, we'd go once in a while to Rich Mountain. I don't remember any of the pastors' names there. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Culler, June 11, 1973 Description An account of the resource Walter Culler was born in Boone, North Carolina in 1882 and grew up on a farm. He lived in Watauga County his entire life and made his living in carpentry. Mr. Culler begins his interview discussing his childhood on the farm. Mr. Culler talks about transportation in the past like cars and the railroad. To end the interview, Mr. Culler recollects the stories he heard of Boone outlaws. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clauson, Donna Culler, Walter Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 18 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape69_WalterCuller_1973_06_11M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--19th century Farm life--North Carolina--Watauga County--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--19th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--19th century--Anecdotes Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-06-11 carpentry farming outlaws https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e636a1c24a35eef6eb8b63791acd88aa.pdf 1871f19e81f8d8301afa6b6ae0ad4878 PDF Text Text Page 1. This is an interview with Mr, Dave Hodges for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley on March kt 1973. Q: Could you give me the name and birthplace of your parents? A: They were born in Watauga County here, about two miles west of here, Q: Did you have any brothers and sisters? A: Yes, I have one brother and one sister living, and one sister dead. Q: What are the names of the brother and sister living? A: Bessie, she was the baby girl, and Dallas Hodges is my brother that lives at VIlas, Q: Do you have any childhood memories of what life was like? A: We had an awful time; we had to v/ork awful hard to make ends meet, you know, but we growed up, I started in working when I was 1^ years old. I went to work on Tweetsie when they was building it in here, cutting the right of way. I helped build the right of way and helped lay the steel and helped run it into Boone when it came in here. I was just a boy, Q: How would you compare the way that children worked back then to the way they work now? A: They're a lot of difference. We had to help make a living, get out in the field and work, farm work, Q: Do you think that as a result of that, the children of today are becoMng a little bit dissatisfied with the way things are? Do you �think if they had that hard work to do they wouldn't be quite so rebellious? A: I believe it would have something to do with it. Q: Maybe hard work would tame them down? A: Yeah! It was real hard work. You had to hoe corn and stuff was hard anywhere. You didn't get much, if you got ^-00 a day for your work from daylight to dart, stayed in the field and hoed corn. You would bring your dinner to the field and you'd stay there all day long, plus up til sunset, quitting hours, Q: I've heard my mother talk about working in tobacco from early morning til late at night and make 50<i a day. She was really proud of that; :;he thought it was a lot, A: Yeah. That way people raised everything they eat. They raised their garden-their potatoes, their corn, their beans, and stuff like that. Wife: Your daddy ran a store and he run the post office. You worked up there, too, A: I worked in the store and the post office when I was a little boy. Q: How much school i np; did your parents have? A: They didn't have too much; they had up to about the seventh grade. Q: How about your brothers and sisters? A: About the same I guess. Wife: twelve. Oh, his daddy, they was twelve of his father. He's one of �Page 3. Q: Now do you think that the schools have changed over the years? A: They.....I believe they're different. They was pretty if you didn't do what the teacher said you got paddled. You had to mind pretty good, Q: Do you think they're a little bit easier on them now? A: I think they are a little bit easier on them now? Q: What were the schools like back when you went to school? A: I don't know how to answer you on that. Q: Well, describe the school situation, maybe, like a one room school? A: They was two rooms. The younger ones went in one room and the older ones in another, They was two rooms and two teachers when I started in going to school, and I remember once somebody passed outside and they killed a black snake and I run to the door to look at it and the teacher gave me a whooping. Q: -Cause you got out of your seat? A: Cause I jumped up. Wife: He would jump onto that teacher everytime he would see her in the grocery store after they both was old. I told he could have waited a little while and not told it so many times, but it was right funny you know, He would tell it on her. Q: Do you remember any of the books you had back then? A: There was that old Brown back speller; I don't know whether you remember that; I forget the name of it. Then we had arithmetic,geography, history, and English book, it was a green book. It's been so lon^ that I can't remember what. �Q: I've heard some people talk about a Blue back speller. Did you have something like that? A: I didn't have that; mine was a Brown back. They had it before I started. Q: How many months did you go to school whin you first started? A: We'd go from,,, about three to four months. We were out at Christmas, about four months school is all we had each year. Q: Did you ever fro to what they call subscription school? A: No, I didn 1 t. Q: What have your occupations been? A: Well, T graded lumber from the time I was IB years old for 37 years. I graded.,.was a lumber grader, lumber inspector, rather; and after that I worked as Justice of the Peace for ID years here in Boone. I'll tell you something else, I had a lot of weddings to come before me, Q: .Probably young people sneaking off, didn't want anybody to know anything about it? A: They was from every state in the Union to get married, Q: When do you think times were hardest to get a job? A: That was the time when Hoover was in,,.President. That's the only time in my life after I was married that I ever was broke; I got broke under his administration. Got down to a nickel and bought a cake of soap with that nickel. Q: How has the work changed over the years? A: Well, they v/as a right smart. I believe it's not as hard as it was when we was folks. �Page 5. Q: And it's more toward...it's educated oriented. You have to have a certain amount of education to even get a job, A: You do now, nearly a college education to get any job, Q: But you know, I think so much emphasis is being placed on this, I think it is eventually going to get to the point where the common laborer will make more than the college graduate. A: It may come to that later cause the college (graduates) want easier jobs, Q: Well, I've been to college four years and I know that when I get out, I don'T want a job out here digging ditches. A: Well, you have worked toward it, Q: It will get to the point where these "high-up" jobs run out, A: They will run out; they ain't_ enough jobs for them. Q: Right, and you have got to have somebody down here to dig the ditches, and raise the vegetables, raise the hogs, and do the farmwork, and things like this, and that price will go up awfully high that people get paid. Q: V/hat sorts of churches were in this area? A: They was a Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian Churches at that time. That's about the number of churches, Q: To which church did most of the people belong? As Well, when I was growing up, most people belonged to the Baptist Church. Q: What were the churches like back then? �A: In what way? Q: Well, their functions, status in the community. Church going was about mandatory, wasn't it? As Yes, you went to church. You didn't miss a service hardly, Wife: Well, you looked forward to going to church; you planned on it, and you enjoyed it. Q: And now, it's getting,.,? A: V/ell, you're supposed to be there, but 1 feel like people aren't as anxious to go as they once was. Lot of people; some aren't. Q: Do you think it's now more a. tradition or custom rather than the person's wanting to go? A: V/ell, I wouldn't know about that, but I can tell by myself that I used to be more interested in going;, I guess it's just,,.and a lot of people, I've heard them say, I've heard young people say that was older than I am, whenever they run a revival, I heard some folks say, some girls and boys, they said they would stop the revival unless they would come up and show an interest unless they believed, you know, that salvation, ,,, corning to the alter, you knowr and so they said, well, they wouldn't run the meeting any longer; they'd close on Sunday night. So they all made up their minds to everybody go up to be prayed for in order for the service to go on; so I really feel like the young people aren't much different, there are just'more of them. Q: How do you feel that the churches have changed over the years, if any? A: There's quite a bit of change. There's a difference in the preachers; most of them just preach for the money anymore. �Q: And they preach what the people want to hear instead of stepping on their toes a. little bit? A: Yeah, If they step on their toes, they want to get rid of them e Q: They're not the old-fashioned hell-fire and brimstone preachers? A: Right, I know that when we was growing up and then after we was first married, we'd cook all day on Saturday and get ready for a revival, and nave cakes and pies and everything fixed in order so we could go to them, day and night. They'd have services at 11:00 o'clock in the daytime and then at night, Q: I've heard my grandmother talk about cooking on Saturday. A: You didn't do much cooking on Sunday. Q: She didn't cook at all on Sunday, You ate what she cooked on Saturday, or you didn't eat at all, Ai That's the way people would do, Q: How did this community get its name? I've heard it was from Daniel Boone, is that correct? A: Well, that's what we've always heard, but then we have heard, I don't know whether you have or not, that Watauga came from an Indian name. I don't know. Q: What was the meaning of that name? Do you know? A: Rivers, I think. There's a river down here named Watauga River, Wife: No, back west. This 5s New River. Q: How was the community formed? A: (Wife) Well, they had the first jail.,.they used it for a jail. �rage o. It: wasn't a jail; it was an old barn righl". over here close to Grady Farthing's farm, just this side, They held court there, and then they built a jail. Wasn't the first jail here in Boone burned up? I think it v/as. QJ V/as it just a regular feed barn? A: Yes, it was just an old barn, and they said the fleas like to eat them up, It was riffht down here, and they tied their prisoners to a wagon wheel, Q: They didn't lock him up in a room? A: No, they had no room to lock him in. They had nothing; no place to lock him. They tied him to a wagon wheel. It's right in sight down here where we live, Q: It's still standing? A: No, it burned; it's not still standing, (Wife) It was 20 * years ago; they tore it down. Cause we could see it from our back porch, Q: How has the community changed over the years? A: Well, it's all together different from what it used to be. It wasn't so many people like it is anymore; it's thickly settled now. They's so much difference from what it used to be when we was growing up. You had to work so much; all the time you had to rest was on Sunday. You worked six days a week, I can remember the first automobile that came to Boone, I got to ride in the first one that ever come to Boone, The man picked me up and let me ride a little. Q: Do you know whose it was? �y. A: Jeff Robins was the one that had it at the time from Lenoir; he drove up here. That's the first one I ever seen, Q: What kind was it? A: Model T: straight fenders, brass radiator, Q: My grandfather had the first one in our community, and he didn't know how to drive it. The man who drove it over thought that he knew how to drive it. He got in it, and cranked the thing up and took off, ran over the top of a woodpile and about killed everybody in there. What was the reaction to the cars coming into the community? How did the people feel about that? A: They thought there wasn't nothing like it. When anybody got enough money to buy one, they didn't cost much back then, you could buy a new Model T for $700. Q: That was a lot of money at that time wasn't it? A: It was a lot of money; you didn't make nothing. Like I told you a while ago, hoeing corn for ^00 a day. I graded lumber for 21 years, and most I ever got at that was 350 an hour, Q: Were there any horses running away, or rearing up, as the cars came by? A: No, not any. The road was narrow, and if they passed, you'd have to pull out to let things pass, just a one way back then. Boone here was just... don't think they had any streets, It was just a one way road through here, and our first mayor,,,I seen our first mayor that ever was in Boone, Q: Who was that? A: Lewis Bryant, the first mayor that ever was in Boone. �Q: Do you know the date when he was the first mayor? A: No, I can't answer that. That was years ago. Q: That's interesting, though, that you remember seeing him. A: I talked to him. He lived right where the police station is now. Q: Have there been any people in the community that you would call the decision makers of the community? Who had a big effect on the outcome? A: I can't recall, their names, Q: Do you feel that there are any minority groups in the community? A: I don't think thai; they are, I think that one's about equal to the other one. Q: I'm sure that some families we,re really poor back then, A: There was a lot of them. The county took care of that; they had a county home built over there. One time my granddaddy went on a bond for the sheriff, you know; and they didn't have no money. The sheriff ran away with another woman and took the tax money, The county home property was his, and he had signed for the sheriff. I can't recall the sheriff's name. (See story at end of Transcript.) Q: The county home was whose property? A; It was my Granddaddy Hodges', Holland Hodges, He didn't have the money to pay the bond off, it was about a $500 bond, and they took it must have been 100 acres. (Wife) The health office is there on that property now. Q: That was the county home? �Page 11. A: That's where it wan; the land. Q: Is that the same thine; that they called the county poor house? A: Yes, the county poor house. Q: Well, did the people in the community, too? A: No, they,..the county put a man and his wife in to look after them, Q: What did they do? Serve food? Clothe them? A: Yes, a place to sleep. Q; Do you have any memories of specific elections in this area? Any colorful events or happenings? A: I don't believe so; they're all about the same to me. Q: Democrats fighting Republicans, Republicans fighting Democrats? A: That's always going on. You can hear that anytime; same today as it was back then. Q: Did you have any knifings, shootings that arose from politics? A: -I can't recall any, Q: How did the people in the area tend to vote? Did they lean toward one party more so than the other one? A: They did at'that time. Most everything was Democratic back then. (Wife) Up til this past year.) It changed a few years ago; more people cone in, and the population has grov/ed so, you don't know who's who now, Q: I was talking to this one man, and he said that there for a while you could predict an election accurately by the way people were registered and the people in the area. But he said that it's changed so much that there's no way. �Page 12. A: That would weigh the Democrats having a majority registered here in Watauga County, They have about, seems like almost 600 more Democrats registered than Republicans, but it don't go like they're registered. You know about that, Q: Do you think that politics are dirtier now than they were? A: Yes! I think they are...think they are. Q: In what way, would you say? A: There's too much money being spent to buy votes, Q: Too much passing under the table, so to speak? A: Yes. Q: Do you remember any political figures in the community that particularly stood out back then? A: (Wife) There's a lot of them. There;s a few living, but there's a lot of them that's gone on that was outstanding. Right at the present, I can't call too many of their names. But I can remember my daddy, hearing him say when I was just a little child, that he followed his father to the election when he was 10 years old. His folks were Republicans, and he came back and told his mother, he said, "Mommy, when I grow up I'm going to be a Democrat.", and he was one of the strongest Democrats there was in the world, I guess. So, naturally we couldn't be anything else but a Democrat, and I don't want to be. So- I'm so happy that they were Democrats when we married, because if he hadn't been, I don't know what would have taken place. We might not be living here together for over 50 years. Q: Have ya'll been married 50 years? �A: 52, will be 52 years this fall, 51 years last November, So it's been wonderful that he was Democrat, too, and I think that he feels the same way about me. Cause he might have took the club to me if I had been...my politics had been something else. All my people on both sides are Democrats, Q: Well, the Brinkley family over all tends to be Democratic, or in our area they are, A: That's what makes them good people. Q: That's the key to it right there? A: That's the key to it, Q: How did the peoole get around back then? What types of transportati did they use? A: They went around in a buggy or wagon, horseback, steer wagon a lot of the time, Q: Where did the roads run? A: .The road come right through Tennessee plumb, just one road on into Lenoir, that way, just one road, There wasn't any side roads much, Q: It was probably just a mud road? A: Just a mud road. Through the winter, mud was axle deep to the wagons. Right through Boone, it was a mud hole through there, (Wife) It took a week to 'go to Lenoir and back with a load of produce in the v/agon. It would take that long to sell it, (Husband) We would go to Tennessee and haul groceries back to my Daddy's store and be gone a week to Lenoir, and take a week to go down there and back in a wagon. �Page Q: Where did the railroads run? A: There was one run in here,.,There never was but one that come in and that was Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina.. It came out of Johnson City, Tennessee; that's the one I told you I helped them build from Shull's Mill into Boone. Q: I bet you could tell rne some experiences you had doing that, couldn't you? A: Yes, I worked for...my boss man learned me how to, in grading off the right of way, he learned me how to use dynamite and blow out stumps. He learned me how to blow out stumps with dynamite and black powder, and to drill in and go through a rock, you know on 105 there's a rock cut down there where the railroad come through, I carried steal to the steam drill over there when they was building that cut, Q: How much did you get paid working on the railroad? A: I got 150 an hour, 10 hours a day, Q: When did you start building that railroad? A: It was in.,.it come in here 1917-18. Q: When was it finished? A: I can't recall, I can't recall that; I don't remember. I forget my dates. Depot still stands at the bus station. Q: Is that where it was? ' A: That's the depot. You can see it right there; go up there and look at it, Q: I remember seeing it now that you mention it; I'd never even th <~>11 crh + a'hn!l+ -t-Vi Ei -t- " h » T v-i rr i.rh o +• i + i.ioc- o 4- n i l �Page 15. A: That's ET and WNC depot. Q: Did you ever hear it referred to as "Eat Tatars and Wear No Clothes"9 A: That's exactly it; "Eat Taters and Wear No Clothes." That's the name of it. I didn't know whether you heard that. I quoted that different times. Q: I was listening to a tape of a fellow who lived over in Avery County. It stuck in my mind; I'd never heard it referred to as that before, A: I've heard it many times. Q: I'll bet you can probably remember the first telephone in the community? A: It's the kind that hang; on the wall and cranked, you cranked up. Q: What was the community reaction to telephones coming in? A" You'd have to...if you wanted to telephone anybody, you'd have to go a lone; ways. There wasn't many in the community, just one once in a while. Each person didn't own one. The merchant would own one; my dad owned one at the store, post office; and that's the only one in our settlement. (Wife) Well, I was waiting for you to tell what some folks said about your daddy and the telephone. You want to tell him about that? (Mr. Hodges) You go ahead. (Wife) He was talking on the phone and there was some folks that went in to buy some stuff, groceries or some things. When they got back they said, theri mother said these boys were, I don't know how many there was, "Where's the stuff I sent you for?" They said, "We couldn't get nothing. That Bill Hodges was talking to the wall, and he wouldn't �16. Wait on us. " Q: That was pretty good about talking to the wall. A: That really happened. Q: Well, I bet a lot of people.... new things coming in like that people weren't used to, lots of people probably thought people were acting strange because of that, maybe. A: (Wife) I had two uncles that was jealous over each other, and so I was visiting. They lived right close, and they were jealous; they were brothers, you know. They were always seeing which one could raise the biggest stuff, you know. My uncle said, ^ "You run over to your Uncle John's and tell him I want to borrow the cross cut saw. I want to have your aunt make us some punkin pies; I want to cut a punkin in two." So I went, and my uncle said, "Well you go back and tell your other uncle,'George, that I'm half through with a tater, and he can have the saw soon as I get through." Q: Sounds like a tale to me. A: That's more like a tale, isn't it? Q: Did you ever do any soapmaking? A: Yes, I helped make it...help my mother make it. lye outside in a big ol' pot, you know. Made it out of �Q: There wa.s something about pouring water over wood ashes, A: Ashes would make your lye. You'd have a hopper to put your ashes in and the water. It would come out down here at the bottom, and you would catch it and make your soap with it. Q: Did you ever do any weaving? A: No. Q: Chairmaking? A: Yeah, I've made some chairs; make them yet. Q: I'll bet you're familiar with a lot of the old mountain cures aren't you? Such things as making a poltire out of mud and putting it on an area, A: Make it out of catnip, make tea out of catnip. (Wife) I've seen my mother use, when children had chest colds, she'd use lard, you know, and terpentine, and put salt, I don't remember how it was made, Anyhow she rubbed that on, put it on warm on the chest, That was supposed to draw out the cold, and I noticed in the Democrat where Whitener had a piece in the paper about it. It brought back memories, you know, what he had written. Q: Were there any spring tonics? Do you remember any of those? A: Oh yes, Q: What were they? A: Molasses and sulfer. That was terrible. Oh goodness, they had to run me down, I had just soon about,,,They said we were run down, you know, and I didn't mind being run down, but I didn't like the sulfer and molasses. Q: What was that supposed to do? �A: I don't know; 1 don't have no idea. Well, yes, I do. It was to build up your blood, Q: Sassafrass tea was supposed to thin your blood, wasn't it? A: Yeah! But they used it, I guess that's what it was for, I'm not too sure about that. And what other kind of tea? (Mr. Hodges) Spicewood tea. Did you ever hear tell of spicewood tea? Q: Spicewood tea? No, I don't think so, A: It grows up around, . .makes awful good tea. People use that at the table, drink it just like you would coffee, Q: Does it have a spicy flavor? A: It's little twigs; you break it up and put water in it and let it...just like you would tea leaves. Q: I've never heard of that, A: There was a man that said he was going to bring; him some. Around Beaver Dam, plenty of it grows there. Up here where I was raised, there's plenty of it grows there. Grows anywhere that it's wet. Q: I've heard of people using hemlock too. If they had trouble with their false teeth, they'd rinse their mouth out with the hemlock tea and it would toughen their gums, they said. 0 Why don't you tell me a little bit about the work you do, Mr. Hodges? The carving and woodwork you have downstairs? A: I make a little of everything from picture frames, men and v/omen, a Hi Q boards, doll cradles, well, I can't think of everything. There are so many things that I make. You see a lot of my picture frames there, the inlaids. �Q: Did you make these? A: Yes. .Q: Do you ever make any pictures out of inlaid wood? A: No, I never have done that, made a few letters, cut out a few letters and made inlaid, Q: What do you do with your stuff? A: I give most of it away; I've sold a little, not too much. A woman out of Virginia bought some: these novelty places around here once in a while want some washboards, (Wife) Dr. Dean's wife bought some of the Hi Q boards and sent them to Georgia. He has things a long ways from here. Q: How big are the little washboards? A: They're 2J- inches by about '•K inches, Q: I can remember we had a big one; my grandmother used to wash clothes on it when I was a child, A: Then I got to making them mushrooms; I don't know if they would sell or not. Q: I'm sure they would, too. You'd be surprised. Did you ever make any molasses? A: Oh yeah'. Set up of a night and make them, put them in a boiler, cane mill. My granddaddy grind it; I'd raise cane and make molasses and help make them. Put them in a big boiler and a little wood fire under them; boil them, Q: Did you make that (a mushroom pin cushion)? A: Yeah, he took off downstairs. That's where he got his pattern; just looking at that. �Q: What do you use that for? A: That's a pin cushion. The bottom, top, and stems are stuffed with cotton. Q: Did you make these too? (mice) A: Yes. Q: What is in these? Some type of gravel? A: Beans. Q: Beads? A: Beans, or you could use birdseed. Q: Surely you sell those to craft shops. A: I make them things like that, them cabinets, Q: You made that cabinet? A: Yes, I'm in a little bit of everything;. Made a boy's wagon. Q: Did you ever hunt any gens ens? A: No, never did, I don't know what it is. I might if I was to run right onto it. My dad used to hunt it. Q: How about flax? I'm riot really sure what that is. Maybe I'm getting that mixed up with something else. A: You must be; I've never heard of that. . Q: Have you ever heard of anything called a May apple? A: Yes, I've dug that many times. Q: What is that? A: That's a little...it grows up this way and then you dig the roots and they have a little May apple on them. �(Wife) That's a puzzle-ball pin cushion; it's a puzzle everytime you put it together. It has 24 pieces. What I mean by puzzle everytime you put it together, you have to learn everytime you put one together. Here's Humpty Dumpty, Q: How was the courting back then? A: You stumped me on that. They weren't calling it that when we were dating, but our parents, they'called it sparking. Q: I've heard that. My father picks at my sister a lot, you know, and says, "Who're you sparking now?", or something like that. A: Our niece came down from Baltimore, and she had a friend with her and they said, "Are you sparking any?", and she said, "Beg your pardon?" He said, "Are you sparking?" "Beg your pardon?" So I said he means are you courting, and the niece knew what he meant, and she said, "Aw, what they mean is -are you dating?" Well, boys had to come to the door, Q: Well, I think that is gentlemanly, A: I do too, I wouldn't allow it today if I had a girl. Q: Nothing makes madder than to hear of a boy driving up and blowing his horn, and here the girl grabs her coat and she goes running out the door. I think it's a disgrace. A: Well, I was used to horses; I didn't care where I run out, Q: Well, the horses didn'.t blow their horn did they? A: No, they had to come in, but when dark came, that was it. Boys left. We went to church together, and I think the most fun we had was walking a mile to get to ride a mile on the Tweetsie. I think you paid the big amount of 110 for each one, �22. Q: Were there any outlaws, or badmen that you remember back at that time? A: Yeah, there was some. I can't remember the first, but they were; meanness has never stopped and never will. They'd steal and rob back then, and everything. Q: Were there any legends or superstitions that you remember in this area? A: There's been some around that I've heard. Now,, my Uncle Preston,, Jerome Preston, they claimed was over there where the Yankees come through. He said he could hear the chains rattling of the captured prisoners; he could hear the chains rattling though. It might have bee in his mind; it was a haunted place down off the mountain. Q: Any superstitions? I'm sure there are several superstitions. A: Yeah, there's a lot of them; some people are scared of their own shadow. Q: Do you remember any of thase specifically? A: I can't remember those; Q: When did the Depression start as best you can remember? A: That was back in 19...just after, the Depression was right after Hoover was elected in 1928. I tried to forget them. It started and lasted the whole time his four years in there, and never stopped 'til after Roosevelt was elected, and then we could see our way. go to work. We could find a job and They fixed places for us to work; a day and work. to start with. we could get a dollar Sometimes you had to take it up in a grocery store You'd work that day and take you to the grocery �23. store and get some groceries that day. haven't had no Depression since that. And after that was over, we That's all I remember. (Wife) We were awful lucky we didn't have to go on relief} or call for relief cause we raised garden and had plenty of food to can, you know, and like that. So that helped, and we had two children at that time. Q: Now that's the way my mother's family was; they had a farm and raised everything. But my father was brought up in a city and they didn't have any areas to plant a garden,, thens and I've heard him talk about eating fried pumpkin three times a day. A: Oh, yeah. like that. You just had to boil potatoes and have milk, and thing? And when you had money, you bought peanut butter, salmon, or something like that. Q: You were living here in this area during the Depression? A: Yes, we lived a mile west of Boone. Q: How many were in the family then? A: There was four of us. Q: How old were the children during the Depression? A: The oldest was 10, and the youngest was 8. Q: How did the Depression affect working conditions? A: You couldn't find a job. (Wife) There just wasn't any jobs and there's hardly a day passed that there wouldn't someone that would come to your door and ask for something to eat and they would just look so pitiful. If you had anything at all to divide, you divided �24. with them. Q: Did you change jobs during the Depression? A: No„ I was working for J. Walter Wright Lumber Company at that time, grading lumber. being sold. We couldn't sell anything; no lumber was You'd get a day now and then. Q: How much did you make at that time? A: I didn't make but...the most I ever made at that time was about 15C an hour, when I got in any hours, $1.50 a day. Q: You're familiar with government projects, such as WPA, CCC...? A: (Wife) Our son, he joined up with CC Company. Q: What was that? A: It was a...you mean where was it? Q: What was it? What was the purpose of it? A: . Well, it was kind of a training like, you know, when they took their basic training,, something similar to it, only they took boys younger, so much younger than.... He was about 15, I guess, 14 or 15; but he didn't like no part of it. He just wouldn't stay. had two friends that he wanted to go with so bad. He And then they had a, I can;t remember what it stood for, but NYA, they had that in our community after the school was, they brought the children to the Boone School in town, and this was to learn the girls and they got paid for that, young girls. �25. Q: What crops did you raise during the Depression? A: Corn and potatoes, wheat, nearly everything you raise in a garden Q: Did you A: Cows. Q: You made your own butter? A: Yes. Q: How did you keep that? A: Put it in the pen. Q: Did you can the meat? A: Yes, we canned it and put it in salt. it, too. have any animals? We raised hogs for the winter's meat. Made sausage and canned You had to grind it on a hand-grinder. got so we'd take it to the meat market. Well,, finally we You know you never find any sausage that tastes like that today. Q: I guess it's because you had to put so much work into it. A: It must have been. Q: Were prices higher or lower during the Depression? A: Oh, things were lower then. little then. Your meat didn't cost but very You could buy, they called it fatback then, side meat. Didn't cost but very little then. �rage Q: Were there any new ways of making money that arose? A: There was a lot of moonshiners. They'd git out in the hills around the mountains and make moonshine and sell it. Happened very often, Q: Do you remember any of the banks closing;? A: Yeah. I remember the Bank of Boone closing one time. It went out during the Depression, People lost what they had in it. People's Bank and Trust Company and Watauga Company Bank, It didn't close. You couldn't git no money back then. It was awful, rough to get any money. Q: V/hat was the community's reaction to the banks' closing? A: Oh it worried the people about that, A lot of people what had a few dollars in there, they didn't have much. It worried them awful, They never did git it. I don't know whatever happened to it, Q: Is there anyone in particular you blame for the banks closing? A: No, I didn't have any money in at that time, so I didn't blame nobody. I didn't have nobody to blame, Q: Did the schools change during the Depression? A: Well, there wasn't much difference in the schools then, Q: How about your father's country store? A: He credited it all out and went bankrupt. He lost everything he had. He credited it out. I think he had $5000 on his books back then, and he couldn't buy no more, Q: That was a. goldmine~$5000. A: Yes, you had plenty if you had $5000, He credited it out on the books he kept. I don't know whatever went with the books he had. �Q: Was there any change in the churches? A: No, there didn't seem to be any change then, Q: V/hat do you think caused the Depression? A: I can't answer that for I just don't know, Q: Who was hurt worse by it? A: Poor people was hurt worse than anybody. (Wife) The working man. My daddy told about a man saying that during the Depression, that he was supposed to be a Democrat; he'd be hap^y if a Republican went back in cause he could save more money while the Republican was in because he didn't have to pay as much for his work hands, Q: What do you think was best about the Depression, if anything? A: I didn't see nothing best about it, That's the worst ever... (Wife) Well, the neighbors, I think, loved each other more. I think that was a good thing. And when any neighbor got sick in the community, they wasn't just one would go to see about you. They was a lot of good things in that way. Q: What do you like best about the way things are today? A: Well, I enjoy good roads. Q: How about you, Mr, Hodges? A: Well, I find that today, you can go wherever you please and stay wherever you please. Q: If you could change anything about the way things are today, what would they be? A: (Wife) I'd wish for peace all over the world more than anything else, and I'd love to have our children close to home for one thing. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dave Hodges, April 4, 1973 Description An account of the resource Dave Hodges had many different careers throughout his life including working at a lumber factory and serving as justice of peace in Boone. Mr. Hodges talks about religion and what church was like as a child in the early 1900s. He also explains the community of Boone including the history and the differences in the years passed. Mr. Hodges explains the reaction of the community to new inventions like the car and the telephone. He also talks about local traditions such as home remedies, carving and wood cutting, and dating. To end the interview, he discusses his memories of the Great Depression and the effect it had on the community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brinkley, Bill Hodges, Dave Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/4/2014 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 27 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape56_DaveHodges_1973_04_04M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County Boone N.C. carving Great Depression home remedies religion wood cutting https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/bcb8e34ed9f141e0226083baba8ab6fe.pdf 9f07fcc91c91623b41fee6c94065b856 PDF Text Text //' /- This is an interview with Mamie Graybeal Shull for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley on April 3, 1973. Q: I'll be glad to know anything you can tell me about the area. have you been living in this area? A: I come here in 3-906, and I've been here all that time practically, except ten years. But this has always been home and our home post office and everything. Q: How did the mill get it's lumber? Did it buy the lumber from the people or just go in and cut it off or what? A: The mill? Q: Yes, Shull's Mill, didn't it deal in lumber? A: The first old original part didn't. it? Q: What was it then? A: Yeah, Whiting Lumber Company was in here. They come in here in 15 or .16 or somewhere along there. I don't just remember. But you see, Shull's Mills was here long before that. Q: What vas the reaction of the people toward the lumber mills? A: Well, they seemed to like it, didn't they Dean? of people around here. Q: Was there any bad fedlings about the lumber being cut off? A: Not that I know of. Q: I thought there would be some resentment. A: Not that I know of. Q: During the depression, what was that like? A: Well, we lived in Elizabethon duiing the Depression, down there in that town. It wasn't too bad for a lot of people but for some people it was. People with a business it was kind of hard. Q: Did you grow your own food? A: Not down there. have any land. How long Where Shull's Mill got it's name wasn't Whiting Lumber Company? It brought work to a lot Mr. Whiting you see bought the timber and cut it. What was your family life like? We did here but not down there we didn't, cause we didn't We lived in town. �Q: Did you grow any kinds of crops in the area? A: Here? Well, we had just our garden and a have.-enough land to be what you'd call a farmer. own stuff and we'd sell alittle once in a while. Q: Was there anything you liked about the depression? A: Don't know that I did. Lived on soup. We didn't live on soup, but a lot of people did, they say. I don't know. No, I didn't like it. Q: Since you've lived in the area so long, I bet you know a lot about home remedies for different things. A: I don't know. Yeah, I used to. My mother's mother was sort of a doctor around this country, you know along time ago. That was before I came here. And we didn't have doctors everywhere. There was a doctor in Boone, and Grandma Shall knowed alot about that. I heard her talk alot about it, and law, I don't know. Its been so long since I've used any of them. One home remedy that people might think is foolish now, if you had any kind of infection if you was about to take the blood posion or anything, go out here to some of these red clay banks and get you some red clay mud and put it in a pan and pour cold water on it and stir it up and sort of make a poultice and bind a cloth around it and you could draw that inflamation all out. Q: How does that work? A: I can't tell you, but I've done that and I've seen Grandpa Shull do that. Q: Were there any more that you can think of? A: I can't hardly say right now, that one just came to my mind, because people thought it was so foolish, would now. I was '-thinking the other day I reckon thats why I thought of it today. Now, I used to just tell them. Can you think of any honey? (Son-says touch-me-nots) Oh yeah, touch-me-nots, you know these wild touch-me-nots. That is good for poison ivy. You can take that you know its green, green plants and you can just take it up and rub it in your hands and it would kill the poison ivy just like that. They used to make a medicine out of it. It was made in Knoxville, but they don't make it anymore. I don't know why.. It is called Jewel Weed, That is the right name for it, but we call it touch-me-nots. Q: A: patch was all. We didn't We had enough to grow our > Is there anything for fevers or colds? For pneumonia fever they used to use lard, turpentine, and lamp oil, and onions, work your onions in a pan in some water and put that lard and turpentine stuff in there and cook it all up good together, and take snorts, what we used to get from our^wheat. They took the wheat to the mill and they got shorts. You thicken it all up with that and put it across your chest and bind the cloth around and that was a sure cure for pneumonia. Granny Shull doctored with pofticf "l . i t 1 r S 1 " -fie\> Dr'Mck Bln*ham had them t0 «-ket the �: ._; Shezkept stirring it, cooking it, and mashing it until it made a salve that would nearly cure any kind of sore. And 1*11 tell you another thing that will kill poison ivy. Grandpa Shull used is aid motor oil. Q: Motor oil? A: Now, it will stain your bed, it will just stain everything. Dean used to have it so bad, and pappy said to me one time "If you would take some old motor oil and grease him. Take some old rags and wrap around it because it will stain your bedclothes, and that will cure him*'' Q: I have that pretty bad, maybe, I should try some of these old remedies to get rid of it. I take it easily. A: I'll tell you another thing that will cure it to, and you can do that any time of the year is to make you some real strong balck coffee. Just boll it, don't perk it, just boil it strong and black. Strain the grounds out and let it cool and put epsium salts in it. Then wash it in. Q: Is that right? A: Claude Dean had it one time until his eyes were nearly closed shut. Him and his wife came down to Lhe store and got some epsium salts and it cured it on him. You can have that anytime whether you get the Jewel Weed or not. Dean; Hemlock tea is good, A. Yeah., hemlock tea is good when you have your teeth pulled and have a plate put in. Take the little green parts and put some water on them and steam boil it and let it cool and wash your mouth in that and it will toughen your gums and you can wear your plate, and want have to put anything in there to hold you teeth in with. No povder or nothing. Q: Doggone. Lots of people in my family could have that it they had known about it. They really had trouble with their teeth. A: I know that; water, Q: Their's were about that way. They would take them out and leave them out a few hours and pat them hack in and wear them again. They just really hurt them bad; A: Wash your plate in salt water and that will toughen your gums. Q: Is there something about sassafras tea? A: OK Yes, it is good for spring of the year. If a fellow could get a hold of some this time of the year it would be fine. It thins your blood. You get all sluggish in the winter time because you don't have all these green things to eat and sassafras tea will jsut perk you up right now. The red will but the white don't do no good. Q; w4#/do you mean by red and white? A: There is red sassafras and a white sassafras and you use the bark off of the I*ve had my mouth so sore that I couldn't even hardly d,r,ink, �roots. The roots off the red are red and you dig down in there and the roots are white. You can make it, but it is not as good as the red. But if you dig down and the root are red just peel that bark off and make a tea out of it. Q: Do you know how to make it? A: Make the tea. You just put your bark in an enamel pot and boil it down a while and stream that off and sweeten it and drink it. Q: Any spring tonics that you can think of that were used back then, say sulpher and molasses. Was that a spring tonic? A: Mother used to mix sulpher and molasses and we young ones loved it. Dean: Whiskey and rattlesnake. Q.: Whiskey and what? A: Rattlesnake. Q: Rattles/j^ke? A: uh huh. Q: You mean rattlesnake meat or what? A: Yeah, just pour you some whiskey over rattlesnake and it will cure T.B. Q: You marinate the meat in it, or what? A: I don't know. I reckon you do. know much about it. Dean: Dean knows more about it than I do. I don't This guy up here had heart trouble and died and they revived him with mistletoe tea. A: Oh that was Zeb Brown and he had high, blood. He had high blood until he couldn't even walk across the house without holding to a chair or something. And he drunk mistletoe tea and he lived a long time after that and got so he could do a right smart bit of work and everything. And Merfie Dyer, had high blood, and he drunk mistletoe tea. It helped him. He used to work for the school, Merfie did. Q: Are ther any legends that you are familiar with. Al AbTDUt old Lum and his bears. This is a true story. It was before I come up here but I've heard them talk about it. There was an Aldridge and he was a great bear hunter. He lived up the river. He had a big family. His boy farmed but he didn't do much of anything but hunt bear. On time he was up there and had him a cabin and he kept hearing noises that was a panther. That evening when he was coming home in from his bear hunting. He had killed a bear and had the meat there in his cabin and kept hearing this panther squaling around but didn't think to much of it. That night something woke him up on top of his house just raking and raising cane up there. He laid there and got hold of his hatchet and directly a big old claw came through there and he grabbed that thing by the foot and cut its foot and it was a panther a coming Any old tales or anything? �in thereafter his meat. Another time he was up there hunting and tracked a bear into a den and he crawled in after Mr. Bear and he had him a pine torch and he saw that old bear's eyes. There was two in there and the other one ran out over hime and liked to have killed him. That hole was to little. That is about the only two right now that I can think of. Can you think of anything else, Dean? Dean: Not right now. A: There is lots of them but I can't think of any right now. I've heard people laugh about them. He was the great grandfather of Boss Aldridge. He was their great grandfather. Their daddy's name was Linville. Q: They called him Rolling Bum. A: I don't know remember the have if they I don't know Q: Probably because he was rolling around when that bear ran over the top of him. how you spell it. I've seen it, though. There is a book. I don't name of it. There might be one over there at Boone. They should don't have. They had the story and they called him Rolling Bum. why they called him that, except he was a bear hunter. A;, Might have been, I don't know. Q: Can you remember when the first cars came into this community? A: Yeah, I can remember. Q: What was the reaction to that? A: Most people was afraid of them, and wouldn't ride in them. Q: Scared the horses alot, didn't it? A: Oh, boy, yes, they saw the danger. There wasn't many. Wasn't but one for a long long time. There was just one up the river here. Hub Wagoneer had it. He is dead now. He was a young boy then. My husband thought they were the grandest things that ever had been. He always wanted a good horse to pick up and go. These cars could go faster than a horse and that was fun, Roby thought that was the grandest thing that had ever been so he was crazy to ride in that car. He just wanted to ride in that car so bad. That has been years ago. So one day he went up to Foscoe and Hub brought him back down home in it. Roby come in and said "Come out here. I want to show you something." And it was the car. Was the first time £ had ever seen one. He said Hub come down to take you a ride and I said "not me in that thing," Roby rode back up to Foscoe with him and walked back down, rt iv&. only two miles up to J?oscoe and we walked up there. It wasn't long though, until, I don't remember who had the next car. In other words, it wasn't to long until Whiting's Mill came in here and there was several car. But that is the first car I can ever remember seeing. That must have been about 1912 or something like that. Q: Can you remember your first experience in a car? A: I didn't ride in Hub's car. Pop got one not long after that. A Ford. �A: The first car I can ever remember, right now, was in West Virginia. No that wasn't the first one I'd ever seen. Hub Wagoneer''s was the first one I'd ever seen, Roby went to West Virginia to work and he had two cousins who worked in the mines and one Sunday some man took us up to the mines in his car. That was the first time 1 had ever rode in a car. Q: What was your feeling about that? A: I didn't like it much. The roads were rough and they would just beat you to death and I just didn't enjoy it much. I liked my horse and buggy. I loved horses anyway. I liked my horse and buggy. I'd take Dean when he was just a little bitty thing, so little he couldn't sit up and hitch up that horse to that buggy and go anywhere I wanted to. And I could take him up on my lap and ride a horse anywhere I wanted to. He had on a long dress. He was little. Babies used to wear long dresses, now they don't do that. Q: Were there any major accidents caused by horses and buggys running away on the account of cars? A: Yes, I expect there was, but right now I can't remember any bad ones. They would scare the horses, but the people was usually nice. They would stop their cars. Alot of places in the roads you couldn't pass. The things that scared the horses were these old motorcycles. They would scare them nearly to death. When Mr. Whiting had the mill over here there was this fellow had a motorcycle and he would scare the horses literally to death. He could ride it out to the side of the road anywhere and stop. I don't remember any of them ever having any bad wrecks but the horses would just jump and rare and pitch and go on. Q: You were talking about Mr, Shull wearing the dresses and the way child rearing was back then. How would you compare that with today's way of bringing up children and how has it changed and things like that? A: Well, we live in a different time. Different enviroments and everything. We raised our children the way people raised them and dressed them the way people dressed them. Now they do the same thing so I guess if I was young and a raising my family I would raise them like they do now. Of course, maybe I wouldn't leave them by themselves as much as people do but some of them can't help it. They have to work and get out and do tMngs. Back then mothers didn't work as much as they do now . They were mothers and homemakers. Now its got so that the wife almost has to work, when you think about it. The two things, I guess if I was raising mine now, I'd just raise them like other people do. I'd try to teach them to-jnind a little better than some of them do, but so far as the general raising is concerned it is just a different era and time we live in. Q: Do you think that the mothers place is in the home? A: Personally, yes I do. And I believe that there are alot of mothers who are working had rather be in the home if they could. But they can't. If you just stop and think about it. I think especially if she has children. There is nobody who will take care of your children like mother does. If she is a real mother. Q: Do you think if the mother were in the home now<-a-days that things would be differently concerning the student uprisings and such things as that? Ai I think so, * I really think so. If they could be in the home and raise the �children and take care of them. The children seem to think that their parents don't care for them, because they can''t be with them enough. I don't know whether this causes so much of this or not but it has affect on children. Most of them have babysitters, and the babysitters are all right. I've got something against them, but they don't love the children like the mother does. Q: Alot of them feed them and put them to bed right away. play with them. They don't have time to A; There good to them and see that they are fed and kept dry and warm and everything, but that's still not the mother. To me, I might be wrong. Q: I agree with you. I agree with you one hundred percent, I think that a child can tell the difference between the mother and say another woman. A: Sure they can, yes sir, they certainly can. Q: People say stuff like when the baby is small they are not really aware of their surroundings. A: Don't you tell me that there not, You take a tiny little baby, maybe a month old that knew their mother*s voice from anyone elses. Q: Is that right? A' Yes, I have. But a week or two, well, they don't notice much, If they're normal children and everything by the time their a month old they can tell their mother's voice. You take a little baby who is a month or six weeks old, and its mother doesn't wear glasses, and someone takes it who wears glasses, and it will look at them and squal, Nine times out of ten. Don't feell me they don't know the difference, Q: There is something there just in bodily contact where they can tell the mother, A: Yeah, and anyone else can take them and pick them up and out of their bed or take them off of their mother's lap, sometimes they don't care, but with some, the first thing they will do is cry. When their mother's take them they ffuit and don*t tell me they don't know the difference. Now the little things know. There is something about them that knows. Qi Do you think that healthier babies are breast fed? A: Yeah, I really do. That is if their mother ±s healthy. No some mothers if they have T.B, or something like that their babies are not healthy. If their mothers are he&ltRy their babies are better. Grow better, I think. There is not many of them anymore. Q: How did you discipline your children when they were growing up as compared to^the way it is now? A: If Dean did what I told him not to I paddled him, Thats all I can say, Taught him to mind. Not to sass you and not to talk back to you, and things like that, Q: Crafts, did you ever do any of the weaving? A: No, I've never done any weaving, but I knit and Today, this day and time, they can. Crochet sometimes, and do some �sewing and stuff like that, But I've never been to any of the places where you • make this stuff. I've just never had any chance to go. Q: Did you ever make any soap? A: Oh, yes, Q: How did you go about doing that? A; Well, we burnt wood. We always burnt wood and in the winter time if we could get hold of any hickory wood or maple, Hickory made the best soap. We had an ashthopper. Daddy built an ash hopper. This was when I was a girl, Me and Grandma Shull made soap after I came up here. We would put all those ashes in that hopper and keep it covered up with something to keep rain and snow from comming in on it. When warm weather come we would save all the scrapes from the hogs, all the bones and scraps and everything. We would put water on the ashes in the hopper and when it run out in a little box it was lye. It would eat the hide off your hand, and we would put that in a little iron wash pot and put a fire under it and start it to boiling. Then we put pieces of meat scraps in it and stirred it with a sassafras stick. We stirred and stirred it until the lye eat all that up. It would boil and get thick. We would let it sit there and cool. My mother never did make any that you cut out in squares, Some people did. We had a big barrel! we put it in and that was what we washed clothes with and washed our dishes with. We had other kinds of soap to wash our hands and face with. But, we washed our dishes and clothes with that lye soap. Q: How did-',you make the other kind of soap that you bathed in? A: Daddy got it at the store somewhere. Qj Oh, I thought maybe you made that, A: No, mother never did, I don*t know if she knew how or if it was just to much trouble. We were a big family and we would buy a cake of soap ever once in a while. Q: That lye soap was pretty strong? A: Yeah, after it set for a while;,, after it got old it didn't bother you. But when you first made it, it was strong. See, we rubbed our clothes on a wash board and it would take the hide off your hands. Off the fingers where you rubbed. I*ve had my fingers so sore. Q: How often did you have to make this soap? A: We made it once a year. Just when we killed hogs and had plenty. have meat scraps and that greasy stuff. Q: That one barrel! would last you? A: Oh yes, Made a great big old wash pot full. Sometimes we made two washpots full. Sometimes Daddy would kill hogs on Thanksgiving and then maybe the last of January or the first of February. Daddy would kill another hog, and we would make some more. That's what we done, I don't know what other people done. What we called stores-bought sopp. You had to �Q: I bet you did a lot of canning back then didn't you? A: Not when I was a girl growing up. I didn't know much about canning until I married and come up here to Grandma Shull's, My mother dried everything nearly. She pickled beans and corn and aade kraut. She dried apples and peaches, pumpkin, sweet potatoes, corn and that stuff, Q: She dried corn? A; Yes. Q: How did she do that? A: Well, the way mother did it, you take roasting ears when its not too hard, Pour boiling water on it and let it set just a little bit, then take it out and drain it off and cut it off the cob in whole grains and have your oven not too hot and put them in a long black bread pan. Spread it out and set it in the stove and stir it every once in a while and dry it until it got to where it would rattle. We would put it in jars of some kind and keep it. You would have to soak it overnight and cook it like cooking corn. It was good. Q: You mean after you soak it, it was just like regular corn? A: Yea, just like roasting ears. Q: How did you fix the pumpkin? As Just peel them and cut them around and around. ^Moth^er bad a rack up over the cook stove and she hung the pumpkin up over that cook stove, Q; I've seen my grandmother dry apples. A; I dry apples every year. Q: Do you still dry apples? A: Oh yes, we love them. Q! They make good pies, don't they? A: Oh, yes, good fried pies. And they make good fruit cake. That was all the fruit cake i ever seen or knew anything about until Dean was a great big boy. Q: With dried apples. A: Yes, Did your grandmother make any gingerbread? Q: Not, that I can remember. A: Boy, you're not as old as Dean. Q: She was in her 70's when I was just a small boy. A: Well, I bet she could tell you about this. You make cookies. You make dough just like cookie dough. Its made like biscuit dough but it is made sweet. 1 didn*t dry any last year. I've got some now that I dried last year. He can remember. �10 Its got sugar and stuff in it. You roll it out and cut it out round and bake six or eight layers. You have your dried fruit cooked and mash it all up like you were going to make fried pies and then you put it between those layers of cake and let it set about a day and night and its good. That was our fruit cake. Q: That really sounds good. We had this old wood stove and she cooked some stuff on that like fried chicken and baked some bread. I believe it was the best that I had ever eaten. A: There's nothing like a good wood stove to cook on. 1 like the gas and the electric stove. They are quick and they are clean, but give me a good old wood stove to cook on. Bake cornbread, arid have shucky beans. Did your grandmother ever make any shucky beans? Q: No, whats that? A', Mother dried beans. Q: No. A: WeiV, Dean, he's never had nothing to eat. Q: Don't believe that I have ever had any. A: You take these litt/e short beans. We used to call them cut shorts and cornfield beans and when they are green and have pretty good sized bullets in them. You fix them like you were going to cook them. Sometimes I Break them up and sometimes 1 string them on a string and hang them over the stove and keep them until they are good and dry, Then you put them in a can or something to keep the bugs away from them and cook them with a piece of ham_bone or ham hock. Q: That sounds good. A: You never. Q: No, I guess I am just used to all the food comming out of a tin can. Grandma died when I was in the second grade. So I really don't remember too much of this- stuff, I do remember that cooking on the wood sto^e. Cause that sure was good. It seems like a one side there was a tank for hot water. At In your time. When I was young they had that. Now, my first cook stove didn't have that, but than, Dean can remember when my stove didn't have a water tank on it. We heated water on top of the stove in a kettle. I've got the tea kettle yet. Old iron tea kettle. Then finally, we got an enamel one, it was lighter, and wasn't so heavy to lift. And I cooked on a fire a whole lot. Q: In a fireplace? A: Yes, baked,. -bYead and boiled those shuckey beans oni-the fire. The fireplace had a crane that had three different hooks on it. And they were facing to the side of the fireplace and you could pull it out of the way or put it back on the fire. You hung your pots on that. I didn't ever have one. I just set my pots on the fire. Had to watch over them sometimes because the logs would burn into and your stuff would turn over incthe floor. If you didn't watch. We dry beans yet, Dry green beans, didn't you ever eat any? I've never heard of anything like th&t. �11 Q: We have one of those iruour house. We live in my grandmother's old house. We remodeled the inside and when they did they closed up the fireplace. What was the kitchen then is my bedroom now- They closed up the fireplace and all that old stuff, The crane is still there closed up in that wall. A: You ought to open that up. Q: Guess that we would have to tear the wall apart. A: YQu ought to open it up and have you a fireplace there. Q: We still have one of those old timey iron skillets that has legs on it. It is a great big old;;thing that is as heavy as can be. It's got a great big iron lid that goes on it to. She probably set that in the fireplace. A: No, you let your coals burn and set them out on the hearth on top of the coals, is where you baked your bread. You put your bread in there, and put your lid on and then put a little coals and hot ashes on the top. And that is the way you baked your bread. Q: We still have her old iron skillet over at fohe house. I remember when we were kids getting water out of the well. Having the old well and winding the water out. We didn't have running water when I was real small. Ai We didn't have running water either not until to long. I mean water in the house. We had a well when Whiting was over here with the mill. We had a well, I reckon, when we went to Elizabethan. That was the first time we had water in the house. Wasn't it Dean? Had water down there. Then when we come back here we still had the well for several years. Q: We left our well just like it was. it still. A: Its good for it to draw water out. Q: Weil, I think it is a lot better, than comming out of the tap. A: This old well that we use down here in the front yard. But Grandpa Shull dug one before he was married. That is Dean's grandpa. We had to have it cleaned out ever once in a while. Qj I can remember that. They had a great big wench with two men on each side and they would let them down in there and they would come out with .all kinds of toys and stuff that my sister and I had threw in there A: This well went dry and we finally brought a pump in the kitchen. put some pipe down in there. Q: Is that bird not common in this area? Dean: A: So we could go out there and wind some out of A hand pump, and Kind of rare. But they're awful "wild, They very seldom come this near to the house to feed. But in the summer you can hear them around hollaring, In the grandfather there are lots of them. We call them Joe Winks, Maybe you know them? �12 Q: No, I don't believe that I have heard that name. A: Well, thats what we used to call them a long time ago. Joe Wink. But they call them toe hoes now. They make a kind of noise like they are singing To hink, to hink, to hink. Q: Are there any animals that are extinct almost now. of hunting. A: No. I guess they are animals there is not as many. People the river. There is not many Their hides are a big price. Q: Did your husband ever sell any of his hides? A: Oh yes, that is the way he got money in the winter time. Grandpa Shull had two sugar orchards. One was right up there. Some of the old trees are still there yet, one is out yonder where the golf course is at Hound Ears. Me and Roby tended that one and Grandma and Grandpa tended this one here. We made maple sugar and syrup and sold it in the spring. That is the way we bought our sugar, coffee, clothes, and stuff like that. We would take Dean down there and put him in a box. They had a big furnace built along and a boiler like they make molasses in. You have seen them make molasses. Q: I've seen the thing they were made in. A: They had that kind of thing. Roby would work and get a lot of wood piled up and had a shed built over it.- I would"set Dean's box right over in there where the wind wouldn't hit him, and keep him down there all day. We would take our rations with us and stay down there and boil our sugar water. We had to carry it when it was snowy and bad. Grandma Shull would keep Dean while we was carrying in the water. Then we would come back and help carry in their water. We sold our stuff in Blowing P.ock. There wasn't any sell for it right around here. Anybody who came in and wanted a hunk of sugar or a pot of maple syrup or something we just gave it to them. We sold it at Blowing Rod: and got a dollar a gallon for our syrup. Made a many of a gallon of syrup for a dollar and took it up there. That was a big price then. 0: Did you have any brothers and sisters? A; Nine. Q: Nine. A: I don't know whether I can remember their ages or not. Dean: A: Any of them gone because all through here like there was then, or course, fox and coon hunt, and catch some in traps along mink around here. They have been caught out. Thirty-five dollars for a big mink. How many were in your family? Do you remember their names and ages? Well, close to it. I could look. I doesn't matter. Well, I was the oldest. T" was born in '89. Then my sister Lucy She was three years younger than me. Austin was the next. Then Roger, Fred, claude, Frank, Ruby. I am the oldest and there two between most of us, three years between some. I could go get my was next. Grace, years book �13 and tell you just exactly. That sort of gives you an idea of how many of them there was. We are all alive but two. I have got two brothers dead. Q: Did you all go to school. A: Well,they all got a better education than I did. I was the oldest and I didn't like to go to school. I got married about the time that I got grown. I guess I got about an eigth grade education. The rest of them finished high school and most of them college. Three of them Fred, Grace, and Austin were teachers. Grace taught in college for years and Austin taught in High School in Johnson City a while and then he taught ar that College down there in Johnson City. Dean: A: Dean: The University of Tennesse Yeah, then Fred my other brother taught at Washington College until he retired, about four years ago. Two of my sisters are trained nurses. They both finished high school and they are trained nurses. Registered nurses. A: Yes, registered nurses. Then my sister next to me finished High School and went to business college and she is a bookeeper. She doesn't wonk now. She is about 80. She lives by herself and does her own work and everything. Then I had another brother he finished high school and went to work for Free Service Tire Company in Johnson City and worked there for fifty years. Last fall was fifty years when he retired. He was 70. He went to Carson Newman College. He had been there fifty years when he retired. Q: That is a long time. A: When I went to school? Q: Yeah. A: They were good schools I guess for the time. But they weren't nothing like they are now. You just had one room and one teacher. The first school I ever went to had two teachers. Over in Ashe County at Sutherland. That is where I first went to school. Then I went to school down at Beaver Creek where they just had one teacher most of the time. Professor Franklin, and of course he was a good teacher and we had to mind him. That was one thing we had to do. But they are different to what they are now. They didn't grade.:them like they do now. Thejr weren't as good as they have now. There wasn't so many people, Vie didn't have any cafeterias to eat at. We took our own lunch. They had a bi^g old water bucket setting in the corner with a dipper and we all drunk out of the same bucket and stuff like that, it didn't kill us. Played ball and stuff like that when recess and dinner time come. Q: I can remember hearing my mother talk about peanut butter and homemade biscuits and putting it into little buckets and taking it to school with her and eating it for lunch. She said that some of the rich kids brought the sandwhichas maHe our of bought bread would trade their sandwhichss for her peanut butter and biscuits. That was something to them and the sandwhiches were something to her. How were the schools back then. What were they like? �14 A: Of course. My mother never did bake bread much, but grandmother baked light bread. Baked it on the fire in that great big skillet I was tilling you about on the hearth. Put two loaves in there and raise them up. Mother didn't bake light bread so we took biscuits to school. We were always glad when they killed hogs because we would get one biscuit with a piece of sausage on it. Q: That was a treat? A: 6h yes, that was a treat. We usually had butter and applebutter. Daddy always managed to keep us a couple of cows. Had to because there were so many of us. We had to have milk and butter. Q: With nine, I would expect so. A: We had apple butter and jelly and stuff like that in our biscuits mostly. Some of the children would bring cornbread to school. We didn't have biscuits for breakfast every moring but mother almost always tried to keep biscuits for us to take to school, but we had cornbread sometimes for breakfast. We had our own corn and had our meal ground but our flour we had to buy. Because daddy didn't have enough land to raise wheat. We had to be saving with our flour. Q: How were the books back then? A: Books? Q: In the schools. A: Blue back speller. Dean didn't use it but I have got one. Dean had a little spelling book like they all had. They had the primer and then the first reader, and the second reader and all. Then, I've got all of them until he went on and finished college. I've got all of his college books. Q: Where are you keeping these? A: Yes. Q: Was there something called Stone Algebra? A: Dean, do you know anything about it? A: Now we had algebra. That was another thing I could never do no good at. But I don't remember the name of it. How old is your mother? Q: She is fifty-four. A: No, she's not as old as Dean. anything about that. Q: Did the teacher take sections in the one room? A: She had all the little ones setting up in the front. They had big long benches when I first went to school. We didn't have desks then, until I was a pretty good sized girl. The little ones would set up front because they would talk and What were they like? Have you got them stored somewhere? That is something they had later. I don't know �15 he would have to get after them. Thei,-second reader was next then on back. The bigger ones were in the back. Professor Franklin could tell which one was whispering and he would be standing up ther in the front. The blackboards were painted on the walls. I don't know whether you heard anything about it or not, but you know that school house that burned down. Shull's Mills school house that burnt over there at the Horn and the West Grounds. It was from over here. Bernard Dougherty got it and took it over there and it had one whole side of the wall painted black. That's when Dean first went to school in it. They had this thing along there that held your chalk and erasers, and T-slant. You would lay your stuff down in there. We had slates. All the children didn't have slates, but we could all go to the board and do things. He could be up there putting a writing up there on the board for us to copy off and some body in the back a whispering and he would turn around there as quick as lightening and tell them who it was and call them up there and punish them. A; Old Sutherland in Ashe County was the first school 1 ever went to. know where that is at? Do ypu Q: No. I know where Ashe County is. exactly. A: There post office is Creston. They are R.F.D. It is way back over there in the mountains close to Potter Town. You've heard of Potter Town. It is not too far from there. Q: The students didn't have pencils and paper? A: No, not when I first went to school. I've heard of Sutherland but I don't know They just wrote on slate? You didn't have any pencils or paper We had our slate and our slate pencil. We carried it home of the night. We put our salte pencil in a book or in our coat pocket. It was usually about that long and you would eventually break them. Q: What was a slate pencil like? 4: A piece of slate. Q: It was a piece of slate? A: It was about the size of that thing you have in your hand. It was sharp at one end. Some of them with chalk on their saltes, but that ruined the slate. It got it so it wouldn't write. Daddy wouldn't let us write on them with chalk. Whatever daddy said we must not do we didn't do. Later, when I went to school at Beaver Creek we had tablets and pencils. But even over at Silverstone I know I did. Q: There wasn't much emphasis placed on education back then, was there? A: There wasn't much, not like there is now. Q: Especially in girls, A: Our school was always out before Christmas when I was a child. I guess we had about four months of school and that was it. Our school was out before Christmas. �16 The week before Christmas we had our spelling bee and our school was out and then we were free until the next time school came around. Q: Do you mean that was the end of the school year? A: Yes, unless they had a summer subscription school. Daddy always managed to send the children to taht. That was when I was little. That was the end of the school year. Then they got up to six months of school and that is the most that I ever went. We would go a little while after Christinas. Now, they have the nine month. I think it was just six months when Dean first started to school. See Dean i,? 65 years old. When he first started to school it was just six months. They would get up what they called a subscription school and they would pay a dollar a month for a pupil. Say somebody had three children to send, they would pay three dollars a month. They would hire a teacher and this teacher would stay around among the pupils. She would stay one night one place and the next night another place. That way the people boarded her and what they paid in for teaching was her salary. She usually taught two months. That was when I was little. When we lived on Cove Creek. Q: A dollar per pupol was alot back then. A: When you had two or three children to send it was hard to get that three dollars a month. There was very few who could ever let very many go. They would let their oldest ones go. Daddy always managed for me to go and after Lucy got pretty good-sized he managed for her to go. Q: Did the older one come back and teach the younger ones what they had learned in school? A: Yeah, we sit down and made them learn their ABC's and learned themlto read and write before they ever went to school. Q: My mother was the baby of the family and she skipped two grades. They would come back and teach her what they learned at school. In the first grade she knew all of her ABC's. She could read and tell time. The teacher moved her up a few grades. A: I was the oldest and I can remember teaching the other children what I had learned in my books. They were just tickled to death when I came in of the evening with my books to learn them what I had. Dean knew his ABC's and could read and write lots of words when he started to school. Q: Alot of emphasis back then was placed on the children learning the way of the home life. Cooking, sewing, and things like that. The boys learned farming. A: Whatever daddy done, thats waht they done. Q: What was the reaction by the^parents when the school was increased to six months a year? A: Most of them liked it when the school was changed to six months. like the children were out to much without enough to do. Q: I was thinking that some wantedathe kids ther at home to help. A: Lots of times the older children would miss a day or half a day. Wasn't it? They felt I missed alot. �17 I guess that is why I didn't like to go because I had to stay home and help wash and iron. It is hard on the children like that. Hard on the parents, to. In the fall it was time to gather in the crops and apples and stuff. Some would keep children at hame all day to help do that. Maybe two days out of a week they would have to miss. It was hard on the children to keep up. Some of them didn't have to miss at all. They had older brothers and sisters that could stay at home and do the work. The younger ones didn't miss at all. It was the older ones that it was hard on. Q: Emphasis was placed on church going, wasn't it? back then. A: Everybody went to church. Q: What were the churches like back then? A: They were sort of old fashioned like everything else was. smart like country churches are today. Q: Were they old fashioned hell fire and brimstone preachers? A: Yeas most of them was. Q: What were the church activities? A: Go to Sunday School and they had preaching once a month on Saturday and Sunday. That was it. Q: Did you have any church socials or picnics? A: Not when I was young. Q: Do you think the churches have changed a great deal over the years? A: Yes, they have changed alot. people and the times. Q: Do you think that the beliefs have become a little bit lax over the years? They are not quiet as strict as they used to be. A: There is more denominations now through this country. Used to be just Methodists and Baptists when I was a little girl growing up. You never heard tell of anything exceot Methodius and Baptists. You were either one or the other. There was usually one of each church,in a community. They all got along. They didn't disagree. You were just a Methodist or a Baptist. Now, there are so many different kinds of Methodists and Baptists, presbyterians, the holiness folks, and all that stuff until it is just dirrerent. Q: So many of them are church splits. One group goes off to be their own church and they build a church over here and one forms out of that to. A: I don't know how it was in other communities but when I was just a girl growing up you never heard tell of anything like that in the community. There was one Baptist Church and one Methodist church and that was it. Q: To which did most of the people belong? Good preachers. Religion was really a big thing They were a right Most of them were older men. Just like the people. They change with the �18 A: I believe the Baptist in our community. Some of the Methodist churches had more members and some of the Baptist churches had more members. Q: Preachers back then were God called, weren"'t they? A: They were different. Not many of the preachers had a college degree back when I was growing up. Q: Just high school degrees? A: They were good men and good teachers. They preached the bible more than they do now. They just got up there and read their bible and preached about it. They talked about all that was going on in the world and everything. You were SHved or you wasn't. You were going to heaven or to hell and that was. about all there was to it. They just preached that and that was it. Everybody was happy. The best I can remember that was the way it was. Q: The preacher was a very respected man in the community, wasn't he? A: Oh yes. Q: Had a lot of influence with the people. A: Yes. Q: I guess that was what held the churches together. A: I was. They respected the preacher and they respected each other. The church was something sacred to them. That is about the best way that I can explain it to you. Q: There were a lot of old customs that were held to back then, wasn't there? A: I guess so, but I don't remember much about them. Q: A lot of tradition. A: Yeah. Q: Can you think of anything else that I have left out? A: No, I can't. A: That store house down there used to be turned around with the front of it down toward that other road because this road wasn't through here then. The first post office was in that building. Shull's Mills post office. I've got old tintype pictures made of that building. The front of that store house and people standing in frcont of it. Dean has got the first post office certificate in a frame. See when they built this road through here and this high bridge they moved the store house down that way. Dean had it turned with the front down that way. Then he rebuilt it and fixed it all over. Dean's daddy said he could remember when Granpa built it. Roby would be 90 years old. The man who moved it said it was the best old house he had moved since he had been moving houses. Q: It is well over a hundred years, isn't it? A: It is put together with pegs. Some not even that. Things being past down through the family. I think I've covered everything all over the county. �19 Q: Dean: A: That goes a way back, sure enough. It is .tall hand hued. Those shelves in there were already there when Grandpa Shull had the store there. Then Dean's daddy had a store there for a while. Now Dean has got a store in it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mamie Breybeal Shull, April 3, 1973 Description An account of the resource Mamie Graybeal Shull was born in 1889 and has lived around Boone, North Carolina since 1906. Ms. Shull begins her interview talking about Shull's Mill. She then talks about home remedies and other traditions like the legends, myths, and food. Ms. Shull explains her experiences with cars and the reaction of the community when they were first introduced. She recollects memories in the schoolhouse including school lunches, text books, and the layout. To finish her interview, Ms. Shull explains what church was like as a child. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brinkley, Bill Shull, Mamie Graybeal Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/3/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 19 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape54_MamieGreybealShull_1973_04_03M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Mountain life--North Carolina--Watauga County--History--20th century--Anecdotes Boone cars legends myths Shull's Mill traditional food https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/fa8d8ef7f21a64c763c3201203e45c30.pdf efb8ee9d2d3f7ef22dc653d291e9021b PDF Text Text INTERVIEW WITH BOB GUY Bob: there. My grandfather and grandmother in Marion started two miles from And in order to get there, we had to get there on the Tweetsie Railroad to Johnson City and spend the night and ride the Clinchfield Railroad from there to Marion the next day. forty minutes used to take two days. we set our watches back. A trip th&t now takes about That's one thing and then of course Tweetsie in those days,..., we came down from Boone every morning about 8:30 and you come up from Johnson City in the afternoon at four. Interviewer: Bob: Did it go back behind the house? Yes, you could see it out the back door. Interviewer: Bob: It went right by the house. Would you talk a little bit about when you were born? About the time I was born we did'nt have any doctors in thi s county and my mother had to go to Marion where I was delivered on Christmas day in 1918. I was the third of seven children. Interviewer: She must have known when you were going to come home to make that trip. How many people were in your family? Bob: Two boys and five girls. Interviewer: Bob: Are most of them living around here now? I have one sister in Philadelphia, one brother in Raleigh, two sisters in Salisbury, the rest are here. Interviewer: Do you want to talk some of your father? �My father was born in Stanton, Virginia and raised in Salem, Virginia. HE came to N. C. when he was twelve years old. He rode a horse into Newland in 19]2 when the county was organized and started the Avery County Bank. Interviewer: What was your family life like? Was thenealot of emphasis on the "family"? Bob: Idon't recall that much about that because my mother was deaf and had seven kids. My baby sister was just a year old when she died. But mother could always read lips and she put a baby to bed. She always slept with one hand on the baby so that when it woke up she could feel it move without hearing. That's about the only thing I remember about my childhood. Interviewer: What kind of things did you do when you were little? What pastimes did you have? Bob: When I was little ther were'nt any cars around here, as I remember ther was one bicycle. ride it to the then; df.po't' We used to pay the boy who owned it a nickel to and back. That was our method of mobility back and swinging and fishing and trapping, and that was about it. those days we had alot o-f' chestnuts. Interviewer: Bob: You still have one in your yard. That's the black keeled-over tree. We used to have it in the backyard. Interviewer: Bob: Do you ever have any reunions? No, not a family reunion, is that what you mean? Interviewer: Of course you visit alot. Jane comes down. In �Interviewer: Was that the Dr. Sloop who founded Crossnore? Can we talk a little bit about h .m? Bob: I'd rather you get the information from him.or rather from Martha because she knows all that down cold. Interviewer: Bob: Do you see it any different now? Well, do you want me to describe my first game of post office? Interviewer: Bob: What was courting like then? All right No, that was about the limit of courting back then. Different people in the community would have a party maybe once a week and the romancing consisted of a game of postofficg, . Interviewer: Bob: Yes, it's alot different now. There wasn't any cars and you just had to find somebody's home to do alittle romancing in. Interviewer: Bob: Do you remember any outlaws around this area? We had murders all the time. attention to it. movie a week. When I was a kid, I didn't pay any We'd got to the show every Saturday night. It was a silent movie. There was one There was always a fight at that. There is something I remember - if we had a nickel extra, we'd buy a bottle of pop with it and you get an ice pick and punch a hole in "the top of it so it would blast out through the movie. Interviewer: Are there any superstitions you remember from when you were little or legends? Bob: Myifiother was the most superstitious woman in the world, I still see things around the house she'd be superstitious about Interviewer: Bob: Like what ? Like walking under a ladder, stepping across a broom- My mother was �terribly superstitious. Interviewer: Bob: What did she do if she did step across a broom? She'd put her kids to bed if she thought one of them was involved. She made us got to bed. Interviewer: Did you ever hear your father "talk about the civil war or anything? Bob: No, all his people being from Virginia, they were real southerners, but he never said too much about it. In this section of the country , the civil war is never discussed too much. Bob: I think that if you'll go back in history of Avery county, you'll find that the reason it is Republican is because the people up here supported the north in the civil war, Interviewer: they did not support the south. I've heard that and that the peopledown in the Piedmont were a little bit upset. Bob: That's true that's why it is still Republican. Interviewer: I guess one thing, they didn't have any slaves around here, did they? Bob: No, these people are still meek and Republican. Because there's no color conformity, people saw no reason to fight because there weren't any slaves. Interviewer: this area. One thing, we think is important is about the depression in I want to ask you if you noticed any shortage of food or any hard- ships from the depression at all Bob: Not personally, I don"t - I remember the way people worked. work all day for maybe .75 or $.80. They'd But to me, I couldn't conceive of any- thing being wrong with it at the time because I was just a kid and $.80 to me then was a tremendous amount of money. �Interviewer: Did you ever have a garden? when I was a kid. We had corn, potatoes, and we had gooseberries until they had the blight. bushes down. Oh, we always had a garden Then , of course, we had to cut our gooseberries We had grape arbors - everything that you have on a farm; cows, pigs,.,. Interviewer: Bob: Then you never had a scarcity of food or anything. Oh no, we always had plenty of food - just common food, grits, potatoes and eggs Interviewer: You talked about when you went to school. Where was the school? Bob: I went to grammar school and through highschool at Newland. I went to college at the University of Alabama and University of North Carolina, spent five years in At lanta and got out of the army in '46 and haven't been back since Interviewer: Was the school real small? What was it like? Was it particularly like elementary school? Bob: The thing I remember most about it was that I went to second grade and third grade in one year and third and fourth grade in one year because you didn't have the teachers that you Interviewer: do now. Did you find yourself having alot of teachers for a couples of grades in a row? Bob: We had the same teacher maybe two or three times. Interviewer: Do you see any difficulty in the schools nowadays? �Bob: Reading, writing, and arithmetic- Interviewer: Bob: with a hickory stick[ So you went into the army after college? Yes Interviewer: Do you remember having an active religious life when you were young? Bob: No, it's just been a normal protestant Presbyterian life all my life. All my people are Presbyterians. Interviewer: Bob: Ive been brought up that way. Have there been alot of get-together s with church? Well, I've always thought of our family as a religious family Interviewer: Do you see any difference now in the church from the way it was ? Bob: No, I think it still has the same basis it always had. Interviewer- Do you know how Newland got it's name? Bob: From the Lieutenant Governor W. G. Newland from Lenoir. Lt. Gov. of the state fron 1912 to 1915. Waightsill Avery. He was the The county was named for Col. The county agent, his descendant,..., his name is Waightsill Avery. Interviewer: Do you want to describe Newland a little bit... the way you remember it? Bob: Well, all there is to Newland is a courthouse, a bank, and it runs 3/8 of a mile from the courthouse. Interviewer: Bob: Well, when I grew up, they were dirt streets. Interviewer: Bob: This has been paved then Now they were paved. Have alot of people moved in around there? Oh the people are entirely different. �The old people are gone or deceased. Interviewer: Bob: There is more or less a new breed now. How are they different? Well, most of the people that used to be here were mountain neighbors. Now folks are here from all over the country; Charlotte, Florida, New York, anywhere, you can think of. You have people who aren't natives of Avery County Interviewer: What were the mountain people like, you know that was diff- erent about them? Bob: Well, the only thing I can say about the people from here is that they were strict, hardworking, honest, religious, and just fine people. Interviewer: Youve talked a little bit about this and I guess there's a pretty big difference now . Do you notice any change in politics or government? Bob: It is still three to one Republican. Interviewer: You have talked some of the railroad. when the first cars came in? Bob: I think it'll stay that way. Do you remember Did they change the area? The station master at Tweetsie Railroad had the first car that I ever remember. It was a 1918 Ford. The first Car my family had was a 1928 Stoddard as I remember. Interviewer: That's funny that the station master had one. Who'd have thought he'd be against them. Bob: He drove the mail from the depot to the post office. Tweetsie. But that's curiosity. It came in from The railroad wasn't called Tweetsie theft. It was named that after it was washed away. Interviewer: Bob: What did thgy call it? The kids called it " Eat taters and we<jr no clothes" Interviewer: Do you remember any mountain crafts or cust oms you were involved in yourself- H aoamn^i ^ t J-"«*xHi2 *f*ii"riniT o 9 *-ui. J.HEJ . .T WR-air"! »-»i"» O " ••'^civj.ii^ i . r*hQ-i-K.«^i r I, or �things like that ? Bob: No Interviewer: Bob: Did you know any craftsmen? Oh, I knew some. Beech Mountain. Interviewer: Bob: At They were at the CrossnCfe School and over in that still goes on but I was never involved in it. What kinds of things do they do? Crossnore, it's handweaving, And over in Beech mountain, they make different kinds of toys. Interviewer: Bob: Did you ever play with any of those? Oh yes Interviewer: Do you remember making things like molasses, apple butter and things like that? Bob: We called it sorghum, It was molasses. Everybody made that and most people made home brew because you couldn't buy any alcoholic beverages so people made wine and homebrew at home. Interviewer: Bob: No, I am not sure. It's a homemade beer. Interviewer: Bob: Do you know what home brew is? Do you know how to make it? I know how to make it but it's illegal. Interviewer: Iguess not. Do you remember af\y I'd better not discuss it. cures your mother used on you when you got sick? Bob: There was always castor oil, as well as I remember. Interviewer: I guess you didn't like that too much « Bob: The doctor always came to see us and there was some wh)te oil that he gave us and I didn't know what it was but my mother always thought maybe it was like castor oil for whatever ails you. �Interviewer: Bob: We always have in this counrty, especialy the ones who are farming still Interviewer: Bob: Did alot &>{-• PE°ple have to rely on their gardens? I guess then that there wasn't that much poverty. I don't think that there was any hunger because everyone was more or less self-supporting. I think there's been more hunger during a snow- storm than there was during a depression. Interviewer: Bob: Do you remember any particularly bad snow storms? One bad one we had was wh .n they had to fly helicopters in with food for the people, I have pictures where the snow was higher than the automobile/ Interviewer: Bob: When was that ? I don't remember but I believe it was in 1940. I think that was the year that it snowed every day all winter. Interviewer: I remember Bill was talking about the snow of 1936. They had to keep the store closed about a week. Bob: It could've been that year, I am not sure. It was before I went into the service. Interviewer: Did you ever have any large calamities or fires or anything like that in Newland? Bob: Newland's burned up completely twice. Interviewer: Bob: What happened then or do you remember? One of the first times it burned up, second time, I was home. I was in Asheville. The The whole block down here burned down and the wholeblock behind the bank. That was about in 1958 and 1959. Interviewer: Bob: I guess there was alot going on Then, of course, he flood in 1940 washed .way all the railroad and we were without any, you couldn't get to any of the highways for about two weeks. It washed all the raods, railroads, and the highways out. �Interviewer: And what did they do to help this situation? Did the state send people ? Bob: Well, the state of course sent all the equipment up here that they could and it was opened up as soon as they could but the railroad never was. Interviewer: Were there alot of people out trying to help people that had been put into hardship Bob: Oh Heavens, yes. There were many houses washed away The redcross were around for about two or three monthes. Interviewer: Bob: didn't know it had hit this area that bad. Oh, it was terrrible, especially in Pineola when the lake washed out over there. Interviewer: It washed out a whole community over there. I was thinking that it h it lower areas. Down in Deep Gap for instance, I know they had a really bad time down there. Bob: We had it as bad as anyone here. Interviewer: Bob: Is Ngwland,... I guess you'd call this a valley, right? It was old Feim's Cove that's what it was called. Then, it was named the town. It was an old Indian settlement There are still Indian graves around here. Interviewer: Bob: You know of that? We used to play around them when we were kids and dig around arrow- heads. Interviewer: Do you remember seeing any Indians up here? Interviewer: Bob: No Interviewer: I guess they're all down in Cherokee now. Bob they were probably here a hundred or two hundred years ago. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Guy, March 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource Robert Guy was born on December 25, 1918 in Marion, North Carolina. He attended school in Newland and continued is education at the Univeristy of Alabama and the University of North Carolina. Mr. Guy was also in the army and was realeased in 1946. Mr. Guy talks a little about the Tweetsie Railroad during his childhood. While describing his childhood he also talks about courting, schooling, and superstitions. Mr. Guy also mentions the Great Depression. Mr. Guy describes the history of Newland, North Carolina and compares the current conditions of the community to that of his childhood. Mr. Guy talks about local crafts and traditions including homemade remedies and house gardens. Mr. Guy concludes the interview speaking of past natural disasters such as snowstorms, fires, and the flood of 1940. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource White, Pam Guy, Robert Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/12/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 10 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape36_RobertGuy_1973_03_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Newland, NC Subject The topic of the resource Newland (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Newland Community life--North Carolina--Newland--History--20th century crafts Great Depression homemade rememdies Newland schoolhosuse Tweetsie Railroad https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/58ff95d2b028b2ec93c0758972e26588.pdf 1049511367f11e1e67f8b698cefd232a PDF Text Text AOH #39 Page 1 This is an interview with Mr. Stanley Harris, Sr. for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley at Boone on March 20, 1973. Q: Mr. Harris, could you give us your age and place of birth? A: Well, I was born in Johnson County, Tennessee, where the name of the place was Trade, which is just over the line from North Carolina, October 31, 1882. Q: How long have you lived in this community? A: When I was two years old, my father moved to what is now Montezuma, N. C. and I stayed there until I finished high school and in 1902 I went to college at Athens, Tennessee which was at that time part of U. S. Grant University, main plant being located in Chattanooga, but the liberal arts department was at Athens. That has since changed to Tennessee Wesleyan College. I graduated in 1902, and took, a post graduate course at what was then the American University at Harriman, Tennessee. that was sold and the American University was closed. Later, At the close of the school in 1903, I went to work for a furniture factory in Harriman, Tennessee and a year later moved to Lexington, Kentucky and worked there in a furniture store as a salesman. In 1907 I became the assistant secretary of the YMCA at Lexington and in 1912 became the secretary of the YMCA at Frankford, Kentucky, and in 1916 became the state boys work secretary of theYMCA. Correction! I went to Frankford as the YMCA secretary in 1907, and in 1908 started a Boy Scout troop under the British Scout Association which troop was recognized and chartered in December, 1908 and became so far as we can find �2. any history the first chartered Boy Scout troop in the United States. After I became the state boy's work secretary, my headquarters were moved to Louisville and the Boy Scout troop in Frankford was expanded and a council organized with four troops in Frankford. In 1917 I went with the National Council as a special field commission and remained with the National Council of Boy Scouts of America until October 1, 1947 when I was automatically retired because I had reached the age of 65. I spent a few months in South Alabama where I had a little property, then came back to Chattanooga whece I was associated with Jake Bishop in General Insurance and for a time, lived at Johnson City. In 1948 we came back to Watauga County primarily because in 1930 and '31, we had built a very modern residence across Cove Creek from Henson's Chapel Methodist Church. At that time it was called Amantha, and we lived there until we traded that property with Gene Wilson and officially moved to Boone. 1949 Watauga County celebrated its 100th anniversary, In and I was elected president of the Watauga'.Centennial, and we produced a type of play called "Echoes of the Blue Ridge" and published a brief history written by Dr. Whitener as a history of Watauga County. In 1912 after graduation from the Grant University Branch at Athens, I came back to Watauga County as (principal of Cove Creek Academy which was an imaginary high school and taught school until about the middle of January, 1903 when I went to the American University for a short post graduate course, ant it was at Cove Creek Academy that I met Mary Swift then a student, which in 1919 became my wife. We lived in Memphis for a while and then moved to Chattanooga and eventually came back �3. to Watauga County to live, and the family has been here ever since. In 1949 I recommended to the Chamber of Commerce that we should develop industry to balance what was then a college and tourist business as about the only industry. The Board of the Chamber of Commerce was not sympathetic at that time to developing industry, but within a year or so, that became one of their major projects, and as secretary of the industry committee, I directed the campaign to supplement the purchase price of property for IRC, and had an important part in bringing industry to Boone, which was the first of the major industries coming here. Later the industry committee arranged with Shadowline to establish a plant here, and after that, we found that Blue Ridge Show Co. was disappointed in the location they had chosen for a new plant, and persuaded the management to investigate Boone. That was other being a trip to New York made by Glenn Andrews and myself, to interview Mr. Herb, then the president of the parent company and he agreed to investigate Boone. We did all the preliminary work necessary to get Blue Ridge Shoe Co. to come to Boone, including sale of bonds on their property, most of which was bought finally by the Northwestern Bank, though several thousand s of dollars of bonds were bought by local citizens. Later, the industry committee was successful in persuading Vermont American to establish their plant in Boone, and each of these instances, we had to supplement the land purchase for the new company, and I had the privilege of conducting the finance campaign, all of which was easily successful. One of my big contributions to Boone and Watauga County was as a member and the chairman of the board of Watauga Hospital, and conducted the finance campaign to �4. to rennovate and improve the then Watauga County Hospital building. This resulted in our acquiring our modern surgical department and a very successful surgeon. Also, with tie help of the state and the Federal Government to build a nurses home all of which became part of Watauga Hospital. Later, when the people of the county divided the money through bonds, the modern Watauga Hospital, this property was transferred to the college and later became part of the equipment of Appalachian State University. If I have been any value to Watauga County primarily it has been in developing these industries and providing opportunity for people in Watauga County to get employment at good wages, and this has resulted in many homes and smaller businesses that would not have come without these manufacturing industries to provide the employment. I'm still secretary-treasurer of the industry committee and a member of the board of most of the organizations that continued to have a responsibility except to encourage and promote them. We built the building for Shadowline and they operated it on a rental basis for a few years and then bought it, and we bmilt the building for the Blue Ridge Shoe Co. which they still operate on a rental basis. Same is true with Vermont American which is operated on a rental basis as far as the building is concerned. The "Echoes of the Blue Ridge" finally developed into "Horn in the West" and has been one of the great advertising projects for Boone and Watauga County. It resulted from an invitation to Kermit Hunter to be the speaker at the Chamber of Commerce where we persuaded him to write the story, and we conducted a finance campaign for the money to build the theatre for "Horn in the West" and again I had the privilege of being the director of the finance campaign. That's about the story of my connection with the development of industry and the "Horn in the West". I have remained as an �5. active worker in the Chamber of Commerce, but recently no v&ry major projects. Now, what other questions you want? Q: Weren't you also connected with Coleman's Tobacco Warehouses? A: Well, soon after I came here probably in 1950, Coleman employed me as a sales supervisor and at that time had the radio program promoting the tobacco warehouse and Boone as a tobacco market. I'm still the sales supervisor for Coleman, though we have not had a radio program as such for the last five years. Before Warehouse #1 burned, the year before that we sold in excess of 6 million pounds of tobacco at the Boone market. Less than 1/3 of that tobacco came from Watauga County, and a considerable proportion of it came from Tennessee and Virginia, but the tobacco warehouse in Boone hasbeen a great help to the farmers, not only in Watauga County, but in this whole section, and last year sold in excess of 4 million pounds for mighty close to $3 million. Q: You organized the first Rotary Club, is that correct? first director? A: I was one of the group that organized the Rotary Club in Boone and because I had previously been a Rotarian was elected the district governor for District 780 which included all of Western N. C. from Charlotte and West Jefferson through to Murphy some 40 clubs. I'm still active in Rotary; I think it is a great service organization. Q: What I'd like to ask you now is a few questions on the Depression. When did the Great Depression start as best you can remember? A: Well, the Depression started in 1929. We had had a very prosperous �6. period after the war closed, and things were going great when the Stock Market had a tremendous setback, and by 1931 we were in perhaps the worst depression we had ever had. This depression didn't seriously effect me because I was then employed actually by one of the Rockefeller Organizations, and they didn't cut my salary, but salaries went down in many instances, more than 50% and thousands of people were out of employment. It was during that time that I decided to build a rock house over in Cove Creek and believe it or not, purchased well finished lumber at $14 a thousand, employed labor only one carpenter on the job got more than 350 an hour, and he as the foreman in building the house made a little more than that but not too much. Common labor could have been had for 100 an hour, but I couldn't persuade myself to go quite that low and paid 150 an hour for common labor. The rock that built the house was delivered to the site for a dollar a yard, and even the rock mason made about 750 an hour which is not much more than 10% what the same would cost today, and while we later sold the Cove Creek house to Gene Wilson and his wife, we decided to live in an apartment, and not finding what we wanted, we bought the lot on W. Queen St. and built Westmont Apartments which five or six years ago we sold to a corporation which now owns them, but I still manage the apartments. Q: Where were you living at the start of the Great Depression? A: Well, we were living on Cove Creek though I was travelling out of New York and came home about once a month for a few days, and sort of kept track of things, but Mary and the children run the house. �/ "•• Q: How many were in the family at that time? A: We had two children: 7. Stanley, Jr. who was born in 1923. Wait a minute, he was born in 1920, and Martha was born in 1923. Q: Was there a scarcity of food dtiring that time? A: No scarcity of food. The scarcity was anything to buy it with, and since my salary was continued, I made more clear money from -"]? 1930 to 1936 than I had ever made-jfeior to that. Q: Did you raise any crops? A: We had a big garden, but as far as farming is concerned, I didn't do any farming, anything that was done on the farm was done on a rental basis, and that was not a cash render, but a percentage of the income. But we had a big garden, and I got some prestige as a grower of roses, for we had a very beautiful rose garden. Q: What animals did you have on the farm? A: Well, part of the time we had a milk cow or two which Stanley learned to milk as a 10 year old youngster, and we usually kept a horse which he could ride or plow, but we made no attempt to be farmers, but we did have a good vegetable garden along with the roses. Q: Were you familiar with any of the government projects during the Depression? A: Not too much familiar with government projects during the Depression, though during WW I, I was the federal director of the boys' working reserve which organized boys to work to produce food during the war, and a big part of that was done by Boy Scouts who produced the gardens especially the big garden in Washington city which was down on the �8. peninsula furnished vegetables not only for the White House, but Walter Reed Hospital, major hotels in Washington, and was honored frequently by a visit from Mrs. Wilson, wife of the President, and on a few occassions President Wilson accompanied Mrs. Wilson to the garden for she always picked up her own vegetables twice a week. I didn't do the technical work; that was done by a man from the agricultural department who supervised that big garden, but I promoted the idea of boys doing things for the government not only making gardens, but distributing literature, make Black Walnut surveys, and numerous and sundry other things, but I had very little to do with government projects during the Depression period. Q: Were prices higher or lower during the Depression? A: They were down at the bottom. I don't know the figures, but certainly meat prices weren't much more than 10% of the present price today, and as far as I have any memory, there was an abundance of food if you had the price to pay for it. Q: Did new ways of making money arise due to these conditions? A: I didn't make any money except my salary until I retired, but since I retired I made considerable money out of projects I've been interested in. Q: Do you remember any of the banks closing? A: Oh, yes. The Watauga County Bank in which my wife and children kept their deposit was closed, and their deposit frozen. That didn't affect me very much because I had continued to keep my account in a bank in Chattanooga which, while it was frozen for a short time, reorganized and went right on in business, and my frozen deposit was �9. promptly reinstated. But there was another bank or two in tte county that was closed and if the Northwestern Bank hadn't taken over the assets of the Watauga County Bank, the IE would have been a worse depression in Watauga County. But the Northwestern Bank took over the assets of the Watauga County Bank and some months earlier Mrs. Harris sold her stock in the Watauga County Bank, but most of the stockholders, in fact, I suppose all of the stockholders lost their stock, and not only that, they had to put up an amount equal to the base value of their stock which was $100 a share before the Northwestern Bank took it over. And that was a real depression. Q: What were the community reactions to the banks closing? A: Well, of course everybody that had any interest in ttee bank, particularly the stockholders were very much concerned and some of them very bitter at the officers of the bank. But they had loaned too much money to too many people that couldn't pay and therefore there was nothing that the officers of the bank could do but accept the closing when that was decreed by the Federal Government. Q: Whom do you blame for the collapse of the banks? A: Oh, I think the officers of the bank were too liberal in their loaning money, therefore, had a good many notes that weren't collectable. Don't think that there was any one individual that was particularly responsible. It was the policy of the bank to loan money particularly to farmers and a number of the farmers not only couldn't pay their notes, but some of them lost their farms and that was one of the reasons got so bitter at the bank. �10. Q: Did the schools change very much during the Depression? A: All the schools went on as far as the county schools are con- cerned, teachers were paid $25, $35, or $45 a month but that was in line with other things at that time so as well as I observed there wasn't much let down in public school situation. Q: Did tfee businesses and country stores change very much? A: Well, some of the businesses went into bankruptcy, but not too much change in the major businesses. They weren't making money, but nobody else was making money at that time so they went along with the crowd. Q: What do you think caused the Depression? A: Well , I had an experience in connection with the Depression that always stood out with me. I went as the guest of a very prominent stockbroker in New York to a dinner in Dallas. Everybody was asking him questions about how to get rich on the Stock Market, and he finally got a little irritated at that attitude and g^ve them a good lecture about trying to make money without working for it, and told them that if that attitude kept up there was going to be a depression, and hence I was sort of close to it. What happened was, as he told me later, he went back to New York and had the stocks that he held analyzed and began to sell the stocks that they thought were dangerous, and as they began to sell, prices began to go down. I've always thought that the fact of his starting to sell stocks was one of the basic reasons why stocks began to go down. Because if he were selling stocks at a lower price, pretty soon everybody was looking for them at that price. And as a result, stocks went down, and that was the beginning of the Great Depression. Fact of it is, I had some stock �11. that I paid as much as $20 a share for that went down to $1.25 a y*'' share. I didn't well(mine for several years after the Depression was over and finally sold them for $60 a share instead of the $1.25 I would have gotten for them in 1931 or '32. And that was an illustration of what happened in the stock market. Q: Who was hurt worst by the Depression? A: Well, the common people are always hurt worst. Laborers/ small investors, small businesses—they were the ones that were really hurt. Q: Well, what do you think was best about the Depression? A: What was what? Q: What do you think was best about the Depression days? A: Well, it probably brought out the stamina of the American people and showed that by hard work, they could still live even if they didn't live like they had been accustomed to living. But I think it emphasized the importance of hard work and sticking to it which would be valuable today. Most of our trouble?today are because people don't want to work and a good many people don't want to put out their best at work, whether it be in building a house or running a business. Q: How is life different today from life during the Depression? A: Well, it's only different in the luxuries we have. had automobiles. Very few people You could buy a good Ford or a Chevrolet for four or five hundred dollars, but most people didn't have four or five hundred dollars. �12. Q: What do you like best about today's way of life? A: Well, I like the comfort of feeling that I have a reasonable income, likely to have as much as I actually need as long as I live which I hope to be at least another 10 years because I'm only 90 and I want to get to be 100. Q: .if you could change anything about the way things are now, what W^ ! wouj-d/jwant to change and why? A: I'd want to change the willingness to work more than anything else, and I think people are happier and live longer when they're working and that's the reason I keep working now because if you• keep busy whatever your job may be and try to put out the best you can you don't have so much time to worry about the aches in your knees and your back and so forth. There could be a different attitude toward life and willingness to be done. End of Tape #39 to do anything that needs �Tape #40 13. Q: I would like to ask you some questions concerning your childhood. A: As a kid, I was connected with a lumber compantf. There were seven of we boys, and we did whatever work there was done on the farm, but I happened to be down among the younger ones and the older ones didn't like farm work, so by the time I was 12 or 13 I was the chief on the farm, what little farming we did and one of the big jobs was to get my two younger brothers to do what I thought was their part in taking care of the farm. Father did encourage it to get through high school and we all did. I was the only one of the three younger boys that finished college, but we all got through high school. But we didn't have any of the luxuries and we worked even as kids. I think one of the troubles with youth today and I don;t think there are nearly as many of them as people think, but one of the troubles is children are given too much and are not required to make an adequate return for it. I think you can spoil the child by giving him too much maybe worse than if you made it pretty hard on them. Q: Could you give me the name of your parents and their birthplace? A: My father was William J. Harris and he was born out in the county from Abingdon, Virginia, where his father owned considerable farmland. My mother was born just this side of Mountain City, Tennessee, on the road about 2 miles this side of Shouns. Their education was limited to grade school: I don't think that either one of them ever went to college, but they appreciated the importance of their children in getting an education, and while they didn't have back then in those days too much money to help them through college they did encourage us to make our own way so I worked my way through college and that was good for me. Q: How much schooling did your brothers and sisters have? �14. A: All of them went to high school, what in those days was considered high school. My brother Kemp went to college to study to be a minister and had the best education of any of us including me, but he didn't go to college until after he had decided to go into the ministry and that was when he was 25 or 30 years old. He was like a lot of other ministers now, young ministers, he went to college and pastored a small church someplace, and managed to get through college that way. Q: When you came to this area what sorts of churches were here? A: Well, over at Cove Creek where I taught school and where I lived, there was a Methodist and a Baptist Church, Henson's Chapel and Cove Creek Baptist Church which is still there, and so far as my knowledge is concerned there was an Episcopal Church, a Methodist Church, and a Baptist Church in Boone. But I did not know too much about them even when I was teaching school at Cove Creek. Q: To which church did most people in the community belong? A: Baptist. Q: What were they like at that time, and how have they changed? A: I don't see too much change ao far as the religious attitudes concerned. I think they're a little bit more liberal toward other churches than they used to be, that's true to both Baptist and Methodist. I think my father tried to give me the impression that all Catholics had horns and tails and I learned that people in the Catholic Church were just as fine as the people in some other churches so that seems to be a drifting of not being so antagonistic toward some other and I think that's true between the Baptist and the Methodist, all the others. �15. Q: How did this community get its name? A: Well, as far as I know it was the legend of Daniel Boone that gave this particular community its name. How much Daniel Boone really ever stopped here is still a question; he undoubtedly passed through a few times. Q: How and why was it formed in A: I don't know the answer to that; I suppose it just sort of grew up as most places do to start with. the first place? I think the Dougherty boys and the school has had a tremendous influence on the building of the town. They just had vision, they didn't have much to work with back in those days but they got a school started and kept it going. Q: How has the community changed over the years? A: Well, it has changed a lot in the comforts of the people that live in the community, other than that I don't see too much change. A large proportion of the people now are making pretty good wages and they're living them up pretty largely. Businesses have grown, some of them tremendously. Q: Who have been the community decision makers? A: Well, the folks at the Northwestern Bank have been a tremendous influence in making the community. Alfred Adams has been chairman of the industry committee, and from a business standpoint there is nothing that has even approached the importance of the industry committee of the Chamber of Commerce in building the community from a standpoint of industry. �16. Q: Have the Dougherty's been in this decision-making group? A: Yes/ very definitely. One of the interesting things to me was that back when I first came here, Dr. Blan Dougherty was very much opposed to developing industry, but a few years later he had a very definite change of mind and particularly in the promotion of the International Resistance Company was very important promoter of industry. Course he had one love, and it was above everything else, and it was the college which he built up from a little grade school to quite a sizeable college and laid the foundations for a tremendous growth that happened under Dr. Plemmons as President and is still happening under Dr. Wey. Q: Could you give me any other names of really important decision makers in the community? A: Well, I think Clyde Greene and Russell Hodges were of tremendous importance, and Winklers have been important promoters, especially Ralph and Gordon, and the three Wilcox boys-Herman, Charlie, Dempsey have been tremendously important people in developing the community. Q: Would you list the Farthings and the Councills among these also? A: Well, Farthings and Councills held a lot of property and Grady Farthing has been tremendously important as president of the Watauga Savings and Loan which when I first became connected with it had assets of very much less than $500,000. Now I understand their assets are listed at about 36 million; Grady Farthing has been tremendously important in that connection. Some of the best citizens in the county were Farthings, but Grady stands out as the high man so far as promoting the community is concerned. Q: Are there any minority groups in the community? �17. A: Oh, yes. There are minority groups, but they're much better off than they are in cities, and we don't have much trouble with the minority groups whether they be black, or something else. Q: Were some families poorer than others? A: Oh, sure! That's true today. Some families barely lived while others were living in luxury. Q: Did the others look out for them to a certain extent? A: A little, not much. Q: How many people were in the community? A: Well, the first time I came to Boone, there must not been over 300 or 400 people living in what is now Boone. There weren't any paved streets or even MacAdamized streets, there were jyst mud roads and when it rained they were really mud roads. Q: Has the population changed greatly? A: Numerically, of course, it has changed greatly. A large number of people now living in Boone lived in the county but a greater number of people lived outside. tremendous difference. From an educated standpoint, there's a very Back, when I first came here there was very few that you could call educated. Now, a large portion of the population is at least high school educated. A very large proportion of the high school graduates go on to college. Q: Do you think that there'ivas a certain time that the population change was greater, or was there a sudden influx of people, or was there a gradual change over the years? A: Well, while there was a gradual change, there have been two or three �18. instances where there was an influx, and the last five years have probably been the worst, or the best whichever one you want to put it.-, Q: Concerning transportation, how did the people get around in the community? A: Back then they walked, or rode a mule, some of the better ones had a buggy, the automobiles finally came, and very few had automobiles, but it kept picking up and picking up and automobile companies have probably sold more new cars this year, 10 to 1 than there were in the county in 1947 when I came back here. Q: Where did the roads and railroads run? A: Well, of course 421 was mapped out east and west of Boone, 321 and 221 were mapped out but they weren't paved or fixed up. The road to Blowing Rock was one of the best, but that was organized as a toll road and they had to pay toll to go over it, and county roads were generally poor and generally dirt. Paving of the roads has been done in the last 20 years, mostly. Q: When were the railroads built? A: Well, the Tweetsie Railroad built into here, I think, was built back > in the teens, and was built primarily as a lumber road, though they had passenger coaches. Pact of it is, the railroad didn't come beyond Cranberry when I was a boy and the first train I ever rode on was Tweetsie from Elk Park all the way to Cranberry, but I remember very well how afraid I was of it, that my brother carried me on board, and I got down to Cranberry, and that was about 81-83 years ago. They built on up here after the William Ritter Lumber Co. had developed �19. Pineola, which they called Saganaw, and pretty largely, and the Linville River Railway came on into Boone, but both of them from Cranberry to Boone was primarily built for lumber. Q: Are you very familiar with any of the mountain crafts or customs? A: No, not familiar enough to talk about it. Q: Are you familiar with the folktales, legends, and superstitions of this area? A: Well, I'm not too familiar with that. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stanley Harris Sr, March 30, 1973 Description An account of the resource Stanley Harris Sr. was born on October 31, 1882 in Johnson County, Tennessee. He went to high school in Montezuma, North Carolina and then continued his education in Athens, Tennessee at U.S. Grant University. He wene to post graduate school at American University in Harriman, Tennessee. Mr. Harris had many different occupations throughout his life including salesman at a furniture store in Lexington, Kentucky, assistant secretary of YMCA in Frankford, Tenessee, and boardman on the National Council of Boy Scouts of America in 1917. He moved back to Watauga County in 1948, where he was part of the Watauga Centennial and secretary of Chamber of Commerce. He was a big influence on bringing industries to Boone, North Carolina. Mr. Harris talks about the effects the Great Depression had on him while at that time he was emplyed by one of Rockafeller's orgnizations. He does explains how the banks were affected and what he believes caused the Great Depression based on his experience with the stock market. When asked about his childhood, Mr. Harris recollects his experience working, explains his family education, and describes the religious community. He then talks about Boone and describes how the minority groups of Boone are treated. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brinkley, Bill Harris, Stanley Sr. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/20/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 19 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape39-40_StanleyHarrisSr_1973_03_20M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource North Carolina--Social life and customs--20th century Tennessee--Social life and customs--19th century Tennessee--Social life and customs--20th century Kentucky--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--United States American University Boone Boy Scouts of America Great Depression industrialization Kentucky Tennessee US Grant University ymca https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/53ef985416b33b5bb4850280d375c9c2.pdf d196b7c682192631af0a32b383694334 PDF Text Text AOH #29 & #30 Page 1, This is an interview with Ed Cullers for the Appalachian State University Oral History Project by Tanya Shook and Karen Weaver in Boone on February 12, 1973. Q: What did you used to hear about the Welfare Program? A: I,'ve heard about Welfare ever since I was a kid I guess, But I'm awful happy to tell you one thing child, that the Lord's blessed my wife and I that we have never had for to be assisted by it and we're so thankful for that. But it's a good thing if it that a lot of times why a lot of people abuses it you know misrepresenting themselves, they get it when they could a got along without it. Now we didn't hear that and I don't know how true that is, I don't know nobody that's a getting that. I mean I see 'em hunt up folks that's using these food stamps but I don't know. I do know a few people that's getting 'em. Q: Were any of your relatives hit very hard by the Depression? A: Yes, I had a brother that, he's dead now, that lived on a farm, why he was hit hard. He couldn't sell his tobacco And he was the only one, the only brother I had at that time, I had two but the other wasn't hit that hard. Now he never did sell very much stuff, cabbage and potatoes and stuff like that. Now he couldn't sell them either, but he wasn't hit, because he had a lot more farm and �AOH #29 & #30 Page 2, stuff than the other'n had. Q: Was there anything good about the Depression? A: I really don't know. Sometimes I think probably that it may help us to have It'd be terrible, for all the good years we've had since the Depression, if we's to have another one, why it'd be terrible because they's a lot more folks, they's a lot more people in debt now than there was then because there's been a lot of jobs and they get good pay for 'em and there's a lot of people that does that and just go in debt a whole lot. They haven't got anymore than they had to start with but they got too much of it, but they buy automobiles and they buy a lot of things, colored televisions and a lot of things that they owe for and if there'd be another Depression now, that other Depression lot of people didn't have the convenience and didn't have the x things that you got now, so a Depression would hurt those people now worse than it hurt us then, 'cause it would take their homes away from them, and take their television away from them, and take their automobiles away from them, but we didn't have any like that to be taken away from us. Now we had an old radio, but television was never heard of during the Depression, I mean not in this section of the country, 'course it were in cities, big cities and towns but of course it wasn't here. Q: What was your job during the Depression? �AOH #29 & #30 Page 3. A: Oh, I's working over here at the college. Q: Did it hurt your wages that you were paid? A: Yes, yes it did. We were getting a dollar a day at that time and they cut us down to eighty cents. Q: What do you like best about the way things have changed today? A: You know, for the last, since I have, call it retired, I have seen the worst time since I have retired than I seen in those days when I was a workin'. Now I've got more money, I'm drawing more than I ever made. My retirement is much more than my salary was, but still yet I enjoyed what I was doing more than I'm enjoying what I'm doing today. I guess when you've had to do it all your life there if I'd had money way back there I wouldn't have worked like I worked, but I had to work for to make a living. That is the honest truth, I enjoyed what I was doing back there when I was a workin' than I'm enjoying what I'm a doin' today. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ed Culer, February 12, 1973 Description An account of the resource The brief interview with Mr. Culler is mainly about the Great Depression and the Welfare Programs going on during that time. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shook,Tanya Culler, Ed Weaver, Karen Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/12/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 3 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape29-30_EdCuller_1973_02_12M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Boone, NC Subject The topic of the resource Depression--1929--North Carolina--Watauga County New Deal, 1933-1939 Great Depression welfare program https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4fe5125463b57b1f7a5dbb15e49c69fa.pdf 460b3d91d44eba8958ea23c7689785cf PDF Text Text Tape #37 Interview With Mary Burnham I. Childhood Days A. B. C. D. E. F. II. Name and birthplace of parents No brothers and sisters Land owned and what happened to it Birthplace Family life as a child Gardening, canning, scarce food periods c Schooling A. B. C. Parents Mother tutored, Boston boarding school, Vassar Taught in Valle Crucis (Mother) c D. Went to Mission School (9 years) III. History of Mission School A. B. C. D. E. F. Started 1$42 by Bishop Ives, Episcopal -, Started school for boys, theology school Started 1st monastic order since reformation Brother Sciles took over 1$95 school reorganized - industrial school for boys Changed to mission school for girls G. 1925 on went through 10th grade H. I. J. IV. Original idea to train women in area- scholastically and domestically School almost totally self - supporting Summer used for an inn Education A. B. C. D. E. F. G. Boarding school at 15- from mission school College in Maryland BA Technology school - degree in library science Swarthmore 4years - library UNC - studied (graduate) ancient and medieval history (2years) Cornell- 4 years - Zoology Department Library work in Boston �V. Religion - Ghurches in Valle Crucis A. Different denominations c B. Changes and improvements VI. ,•; VII. Valle Crucis Community A. B. C. D. E. F. G. Major events and activities in community A. B. C. D. VIII. Two levels Big landowners, small farmers Minority Groups A. B. XI. Farming Population Community club (changes) Large mumber of summer residents Modern conveniences Decision Makers in Valley A. B. X. Political rallies Quiltings Family gatherings People helping each other Changes in Community A. B. C. D. E. XI. Pfening of the valley (before 1940 flood) Bishop Ives "Vale of the Cross" Valle Crucis latin Abbey in Vales momed Valle Crucis S Monastic order at the mission Settling - deeds go back to 1$02 Most families settled by 1$40 Wagner ancestors Foreigners No racial or linguistic minorities Population changes A. B. C. D. Decrease during W.W.II and after People come back after many years People left to get better jobs Attachment to Valle Crucis £ �XII. Elections - Party Preference < A. Democratic B. Political meetings - Boone, Johnson City XIII. Transportation A. B. C. D. E. XIV. Mountain Crafts and Customs A. B. C. D. XV. Weaving Chair Making Pine needle baskets Bark Baskets Looking for Herbs A. B. XVI. Tweetsie Railroad - ElJt Park Terminal 7 hours to Valle Crucis from Elk Park - horse and buggy Paved roads Horse and buggy First car - Model T Ford 1925 - big event Genseing "sang" Galax - change in quantity in the area Customs - Way of Life A. Dating B. Group activities more popular C. . Parlor games D. Picnics in the summer E. Sleigh rides XVII. Legends and Superstitions A. B. C. D. Planting with moon Medicines and cures Gardening Superstitions vary with community S �XVIII. -i The Depression A. B. C. D. E. F. G. H. I. J. K. XIX. Wall Street Crash Bank closings Mountain people not affected as much by depression Credit an Mast Store WPA work (school, Boone Post Office) CCC Scarcity of food only among lazy or disabled NOTE: Listen to chimes of mission is background of tape Prices stayed fairly level - locally raised commodities New ways for making money (crops) Changes in schools during depression- improvements since depression Changes in churches during depression Likes - Community Togetherness A:., Changes B. XX. Closeness,, friendliness of people Today's Lifestyle A. B. C. D. Not a lot of change Still comfortable in valley Misuse of land If she could change anything, it would be progress in Valle Crucis (development of land, etc.) �AOHP #37 Page 1 This is an interview with Mary Burnham for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Lester Harmon at the Valle Crucis Mission School on March 19, 1973• Q: Would you give me the name and birthplace of your parents? A: Wade Hampton Wagner, Valle Crucis, N.C., Sarah B.. Marsh, Patterson, New Jersey. Q: And the number and names of your brothers and sisters and their ages? A: None. Q: Did your parents own any land? A: Yes. Q. In Valle Crucis? A: Yes. Q. What happened to the land? A: Well, it was gradually sold off. Most of the original Wagner Farm was sold off in bits and pieces. My mother sold the last big chunk when I was about 13We still own an acre where the house where I'm living stands now, which my mother built in 1927. �2. Q: Were you born here? A: I was born in Avery County. Q: What can you remember about family life- what your childhood was like? A: Well, my father died when I was about a year old, and my mother and I lived with cousins - H.Mast's, Howard STC'S aunt, in lower Valle Crucis - until 1927 when we moved to the house where my husband and I now live. The reason for that was, my mother was determined that I was going to school at the mission school, rather than the public schools, which were not as well staffed and as well built, and - everything else, as they are now, and the schooling here was much better than what you got in the public school. Q: Did you grow your ©wn food? A: Yes, we had a garden. We never raised any animals in the way of beef or pigs, or any of that kind, but every year we had our own garden, and canned until the deep freezer came in. One of my earliest memories from the age of 6 on , was helping to can in the summer. Q: Do you ever remember any scarce periods, when there wasn't much food? �3. A: Well, we were lucky, my mother and I. She had some income on the side, so we weren't entirely dependawie on raising everything. But there were always times when y/ou had a bad garden, or something like that, and hoped you had enough left over from the previous year. Q: How much schooling did your parents have? A: I don't know exactly how much my father had. He went to school, and I believe he finished about the 3rd or 4th grade. My mother, she was tutored privately at home, she and her sister, until my mother was 15, when they went to a boarding school in Boston, Mass.. It was quite an unusual school, I gathered, because girls that were interested in learning had the benefit of Radcliffe and Harvard professors, who came and taught them. She went on to Vassar, but she only stayed for about a part of a semester, because in 1$91, and thereabouts, young women in college was an exception, rather than a rule. And she dropped out-f6r_ which she kicked herself for the rest of her life. But she had enough background from her schooling there in Boston, to be able to come down here and teach Latin, English, Arithmetic - what have you. Q: You went to the Mission School? �A: F&r the first nine grades, yes. Q." I don't know too much about the Mission School. Could you give me the purpose, how the Mission school was organized. A: Well it goes back to 1$42 originally, at which time Bishop Levi Silomon Ives, from the Episcopol Church, .. came from Raleigh, to establish a mission here in this area, which he did. That's his log cabin that you can see out there. (Note: Mrs. Burnham's office at the Mission overlooks the church and a log cabin. She was pointing out the cabin to me.) He started a school for boys, and he started a theological training school for ministers, and then he started the first monastic order in this country since the reformation. This went on for several years and then Mr. Ives became ill and went back to Raleigh, and things kind of dropped off, and work was carried on for many years, by a Brother Sciles, who's buried down at St. John's down the river. (Saint John's Episcopol church, down Wautauga River.) After his death, things just sort of wilted for awhile, until Bishop Chesher, also from Raleigh, began to be interested in the area again. In 1$95> he re- organized the school, and started a new idea. First it was an industrial school for boys,- and gradually �as the need shifted, it turned into a mission school, training ^school - it's had various names - for girls. But this didn't exclude the boys, because up until its last few years of operation the local boys went here, as well as local girls. We had boarders here, in the buildings here, and the rest of us came in from the community. Anybody that lived in this area, within ; walking distance, came here rather than to go to the public schools. It was nearer, and they didn't have bussing systems in those days, so it was to their advantage to come here. From 1925 on, it went through the 10th grade, so you could get your high school diploma from here. And the've had as many as, oh, from the old enrollment books I've looked at, they've had upwards of 100 going to school here. And what happened in earlier days, was a lot of community, lower valley and others. The public school usually had about 6 months that it ran, and finish up up here. If they went to a public school, they didn't have to quit, they could keep on if they came up here. So, it was really used by the entire community, rather than being limited. But the original idea of the mission school was to bring in young women from around this area, who maybe didn't even have a public school near them. But they could come here and live, and not only were they �6. taught scholastically, but they were taught housekeeping, and domestic arts, and things like that. In fact, at various times, this place was almost totally selfsupporting. We had a big farm, chicken houses, the apple orchards, the dairy herd, ice cream and cheese factory. And all of these things contributed to the support of the students. I was just reading some of the old bulletins the other day when I was looking around for some historical material. for a girl for a year was $100, A scholarship so you can tell that they had to be self-supporting in a lot of ways, to get by for that little for a whole year. In the summertime, they used the place as an inn, and people came from away and stayed here as they did in days. those People didn't just get in a car and go and go and go. They came someplace and they sat down, and they stayed. And from the cities, frequently the mother and children would come up the 1st part of the summer. The father would come up weekends, and when his 2 or 3 weeks vacation came, he came and stayedVv&re too. All the big houses around here were crammed during the summers with visitors from away. A lot of them stayed all summer, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, what have you. And the girls from the school, some of them who couldn't get back to their homes, or didn't have homes, �7. would stay here during the summer and work in the kitchen or dining room, and so forth. Q: You went to the mission school your 1st 9 years? A: For the first 9 grades. Q: Did your mother teach here? A: She didn't teach while I was going to school here, except to substitute.f She had taught here. She came from New Jersey to teach here originally, in 1909, met my father and never left. at various intervals here. fill in. But she taught When I was a baby she taught- Then she taught after I was away, she taught again at various times. She was always handy, if they needed a substitute- almost anything that they needed. Q: After you went to school here, where did you go? A: Well my mother had been sent to boarding school when she was 15, and she therefore went on the theory that I went to boarding school when I was 15, so I was sent to the Hannamore Academy in Ragsterstown•' Maryland, where I graduated from high school. Also, at that time, the llth grade was as high as the N.C. schools went, and most colleges were requiring 12 grades, so that was another reason for going away. �Q: And after high school? A: I went to Hood College in Frederick, Maryland and recieved my A.B. there. Then I went to Drexel Institute of Technology in Philadelphia and recieved my Bachelor of Library Science degree there. Q: And then you came back to Valle Crucis? A: No, then I worked at Swarthmore College for 4 years, in the library. Then I came to U.N.C. for 2 years, in graduate study in Ancient and Medieval History. Then I went to Cornell University to work for 4 years in their Zoology department - I was librarian of the Zoology department. And then I was out of the library business for 2 or 3 years. I was living in Boston, and I went back to library work, I worked 8-g- years, partly as patients librarian and partly as medical librarian at the Shaddock Hospital in Jamaica Plain, Mass. I met my husband in Boston, we married, and when her retired from gov. service, we came down here to live. One of the old ladies around here who wasn't too familiar with education - she heard something about my going to graduate school - to library school after college. She was doing somebody's laundry. The story is that she came up out of the washtub and said, "Ain't that Mary Wagner ever going to get educated!?" �Q: What sort of churches were in the area when you were a child? A: Well, the Methodist Church in the lower valley, and the Episcopol Church here. I remember as a small child, going to the old chapel down the road. remember some of out here. And I the building of the stone church The Methodist Church, this church, and old St. John's down the river, are the only ones I really remember. Q: What were they like then, and have they changed much since then? A: Well, the Epicopol Church doesn't change too much. Of course, we've added things here and there, and so forth. The Methodist Church has done improvements, and so forth, in their building. St. John's has since sort of folded, except for a service once or twice a year. Q: But, they're pretty much the same. About the Valle Crucis community, - do you know how it got it's name, and how it was formed? A: Well, the story that we all go by and believe pretty well based on fact, I think - is that Bishop Ives gave the name for the valley and - this was before the 1940 Flood which sort of rearranged part of the scenery. The creeks in the valleys-looked out from the other building here, you can't see it too �10, well from here, crossed in the middle or met in the middle of the meadows down there, sorta in the shape of a St. Andrew's Cross. Then if you really look at it, well, up in that direction which is Clark's creek, back this direction and then down the road towards the store and then up cross from big school Barns down there, there are four little coves that come in so you, by stretching your imagination make it look like a St~i Andrew's Cross. And also there was an Abbey in ', Wales which was named Valle Crucis, and we think that may have had something to do with Bishop Ives naming it Valle Crucis. Q: And this is in Wales? A: Uh - hum, that's the original Valle Crucis. Q: What about the mission school that's over there established in the last quarter here? A: Yea, uh - hum. Q: Did it have a special name? A: Order of the Holy Cross. And in the church out here, the stone church, in the back you'll find a wooden cabinet, alter, small alter and so forth with an inscribed memorial to Brother Scyles; was the first long term member of the monastic order since the Reformation. �11. Q: That was the first one established in this country? A: Un - hum. Q: How was the community formed or why was the community formed? A: You mean sociologically, economically or ... Q: Yea, well just how did the people or when did the people begin to settle in this area? A: Well, I've got some old land deeds at home that go back to 1$02; the land in this area. Most of the families, I guess,were settled in or around this area by around 1&40, something like that. but a good many of the older ones. were a little later than that. Not all of them, My Wagner ancestors They came, pretty near as I can figure out by the records, my Grandfather must have come here just before the Civil War and he worked his way came down through Virginia as many people did from Pennsylvania and that area. He had a big family but it was all scattered and trying to pick up bits and pieces of family history has been pretty hard and I haven't really worked on it too hard. But I know that some of my uncles were not born here and others were. I know my father was born in a log cabin that my grandfather first built when he moved �12. into this area. I remember the log cabin myself. It's fallen down now , but it was standing when I was a child. Q: What were some of the major events and activities back then? A: Well, in those days we used to think the political rally in Boone was a big deal and everybody went. We had a parade on the Fourth of July and so forth. Q: How about the corn shuckings and . . . A: No, we didn't have any of that particularly. Quiltings they had to some extent, yes. Corn shuckings was just a matter of - well anything as far as the seasonal farm crops was concerned. It meant that everybody gathered at whoever was ready, their house or their farm and did the work that was to be done there and then they moved on to somebody else was ready and in the fall when there was a lot more wheat and buckwheat and rye raised they would come, machine wouldoome around. Everybody just pitched in where ever the work needed to be done, there wasn't and big deal about it. Whose ever farm was being worked that particular day, the women were responsible for feeding the gang and of course they always put on a big meal. How anybody ever went back to the fields and worked after they tucked away some of those meals, AI don't know. �13. Q: How has the community changed ovef the years? A: It's, well of course, it's become more mechanized and change over from crop farming to cattle farming. Fewer people have sizable farm or of people just don't bother anymore. ___• Lot They can go out and work for wages and go to Boone, and shop. Most of the local people though still keep something in the way of a garden. Lot of us would feel lost without it I suppose, we've had it for so long. Things like Community Club and so forth, it died out for a while particularly during the war. up again. c Since then its started The biggest difference is that instead of having summer people come and stay in the houses, many of them have built their own, as you know. So there we actually have two seasons when our part time residents are here. local ones are here. In the winter time when just us And course people, living in the community has made a difference because they're really a part of the community for at least six months of the year. Anf it's sort of evident, I suppose, our perspective having people from various places come here, lot of the small farmers and workers and so forth, they just go on pretty much as they did except they have electricity and deep freezers and f.V.'s. �H. Q: Who had been the main decision makers for the valley? A: Well, if you want to get in the social angles, I suppose, there's sorta been two levels. Important, locally v. \ • *< important families like Mast, Shawls, Bas*y4s-, Taylors, Wagners, what - have - ya. And then the people on a more of a small farmer level. were the big land owners. Those I'd say originally And the school here itself which one time owned 2,000 acres. That's a pretty good hold in North Carolina any place. awful lot of it. We sold an We actually own over 500 and some acres now. Q: Have there ever been any minority groups in the community? A: Actually when somebody from another country came here to Watauga County everybody got out and looked at them. Gosh we even had one resident from Canada at one time when I was a kid and I remember what a big deal that was. Somebody from a "foreign country". But in the natural sense of racial or I wouldn't say we had. ~__minorities, no, We had the occasional student from another country at the school maybe or visitors or something of that kind. There's been pretty much a close-knit relationship. Things start getting into family relationships in Watauga County you gotta wash both feet and your hands too or you'd get in trouble. �15. Q: When you were a child, how many people lived here as compared to the people that live here now? Has it increased? A: There was a decided decrease during World War II and after it because almost all the younger people got up and moved elsewhere and many of 'em didn't come back. And even the immediate generation following World War II, many of them moved away, but a lot them lived within a reasonable distance of here and come back to visit their families. And more and more of them are, as they reach retirement age are beginning to come back themselves just as I did. But it was a question of earning a living. Bat; o»f them didn't want to stay here and farm a few acres when they could go to some city or town, and get a better job. But it's plain the hold Valle Crucis has on people because once they've been here chances are they're gonna turn up again sometime. Now for instance, couple of our local ladies were doing a tour of England, Wales, and Scotland and they went to a little town in Landgoland right near Valle Crucis Abbey and they were having dinner there and someone asked them where they were from and they said "We're from Valle Crucis, North Carolina" and the man said, "Oh yes, I've been there. I was on a tour with a singing group that went to Appalachian State University several years ago." experiences here. He described his He'd been taken around the county, �16. shown around. Not very big on the map,, but you can always turnfsomebody i^p who's been there. Q: Have you got any memories of any specific elections whether they be local, state, or federal? A: Oh yes. on. That's one thing everybody gets pretty hot I can remember 'em all. that goes. Hoover on, as far as Well, a lot of them, I was away and I heard second hand, but we were in the early days of my memories, predominantly Democrat. My mother was a Republican. I don't,never decided so sure whether that was a political conviction or just out of stubborness. She and one or two others were Republicans and they used to get into some pretty high , heavy arguments whether or not to vote for Democrats. Now I think a lot of people, I know a lot of people then and some today still just vote the party rather than the candidate which is their affair. But it's at least broadened in some sense that most people around are aware theyenow are two parties* Which were not" in the 20'.si don't think they were. They used to have some pretty hot political meetings in Boone. And 'course well, one time I remember it was Hawl Smith's Hoover campaign. They had a Democratic rally in Johnson City which fortunately coincided with the visit of the circus. So I remember going to the �17. circus, but I remember some of the people that went down with us, they went to the rally. find the circus was more enjoyable. I I'm not particularly politically minded till I probably paid less attention to it than a lot of people would. Q: What do you remember about the transportation system when you were a young girl, did they have any railroads? A: Well Tweetsie, yes. The old BT and WNC ran from Johnson City to Boone. well when my And it ran through Elk Park mother came here in '99 Elk Park was terminal, that was the end of the line. she was And from ther brought here in a horse and buggy, one of those big double buggys and it took her, I think it was, seven hours from Elk Park to Valle Crucis. They got stuck in the mud and they got tangled up in the axles of an ox drawn wagon and a few other little items. By the time I was noticing things like that they had graveled this road out here, which had another name it wasn't 194 then, and it wasn't until 1927 or 8 that they paved this road through here for the first time. And I remember very distinctly going down to Sunday School down at St. John's or going up to Foscoe to visit an Uncle and Aunt, that we went in a horse and buggy. Mother didn't have a car and oh, it was a big deal when Mother got her �IB. Model T Ford in 1925 or 6 - 1925 when I was about four going or five I think. when she got that. That was a big exciting thing But the road from Boone to Bck-bwing Rock to the best of my memory had not been paved then, 'cause I remember going down it when it was gravel. That was the old road. now , to me, is the new road. The one we use The other one was a real doozy. Q: Do you remember very much about the mountain crafts and customs? A: Well', my clearest memory on those is of course of Mrs. Finley Mast and her sister Miss Lownny and their weaving cabin down at the Joe Mast's place on the Broadstone Camp Road. And they were very active weaving and things of that type. One of my memories was going there and watching them weave and then having Miss Lownny show me how to weave on the small loom. I never got to fool with big looms. That was too much to set for just to have somebody to play with. I remember them setting those up and watching them do that. And of course quilting - I've been ^CVwV -te- those as a child. them. I've seen them - been around And I was taught how to make a white oak split for cane chairs. Think I could still do it - �19. I never tried. But Mr. Duke Tester, he used to do that regularly and he sat down once and showed me how he split a sapling, skinned it and split it, smoothed a and so forth. Q: Could you do it if you wanted to now? A: I doubt it. I might possibly on a small one, but I'd be very insecure at trying because it's been such a long time - I've just had no chance to experiment with it. My mother went for awhile over at the craft shop in Boone, that little log cabin there at _^ corner, and took some lessons just for fun. _ At that time they had lessons there if anybody wanted to try 'em. I can't tell you who did it but I can remember people doing the old pine needle baskets and so forth. I've seen 'em do it, watched 'em do it. baskets that you see here and there. Those bark Old Mr. Jason T'Qwnsend up on Clark's Creek still makes those. Q: (side two) What were the pine baskets you were talking about? A: Took pumps of pine needles like the little tips that they pick in the winter to make wreaths out of. And They smooth 'em out and then tie them with a kind of I don't know what it is raffy or something of that kind. And then tie it and then build up row by row, shape your bowl or basket. Curl your first ones around tight and then build another bunch around that and around and aroy,iid, then on up the sides and you could shape it in �\0 or out depending on how many needles you want to use to make the shape you want. ! w I f ve seen 'em I think in 0 one of the craft shops around here, but I wouldn't r swear to it. i Otst-i -*....£, - 0, Q: Did many of the people go out looking for genseng?. ' A: Or "sang" as its sometimes called. There were quite a few of them. Q: How about -gay A: Well that was quite a growing thing because, well that's Q oJi. c>r. one reason there' s not as much -gaylight-a, as there used to be around. Much of it was picked and it was a regular thing in the fall, early winter before Christmas, people picked it by the bushels to ship out of here. And of course if you don't pick it carefully why there goes your pay 1 I jJhts. Pull the roots up and why you've ruined the whole thing. areas Now a lot of the easily -aeeeesibe were practically cleaned out of it. I still ship it out, send it out to some of my friends and relatives at Christmas time. Q: Not too many use it. About some of the customs, well for instance dating, courting, was it so much different then? A: I don't really know because as I say, when I was fifteen I was sent away to boarding school and I lost �22. supply and needed for the winter. A few, yea, and there it was winter and there were one or two sleds that they would have parties in the winter and we'd go on a sleighride. That was great fun. In those days the roads were either dirt or gravel and you could get a good track on them and really go for a good ride. That again was a group thing. Q: What do you remember about some of the folk tales, legends, and superstitions? A: Oh, the usual ones like planting your beans on Good Friday, and kill your hog at the right time of the moon 'cause if you didn't, your bacon would curl. Various home remedies and so forth that some of the older women had. Like if somebody was drowning or some- thing you'd roll 'em over a barrell and if someone threw a fit, you threw all his^ clothes in the fire and burned 'em. Didn't matter whether they were brand new, whether he had money in his pocket or not threw 'em all in the fire and burned 'em. noticed that it did much good. the garden and things like that. Never Most of 'em were about Still there's people around here that you wouldn't believe that will tell you up and down about the garden - if you don't plant at a certain time why your crop won't grow. �23, For instance if you make sauerkraut at the wrong time of the moon it'll go on you, it won't properly^ §0—bad on-y^m. season These things, they can vary from one area, one little community to another one that may be only four or five miles away. Each one will have it's own little version. Get 'em all together and have mish - mash, but they do believe them. The women here who work the school, they'll tell you straight up and down if you don't plant something at a certain time you won't have any luck with it. I can plant it at a certain time and still don't have any luck with it. Q: When did the Great Depression start as best as you can remember? A: And how many years did it last? Well I remember my first awareness of it was my mother , took the New York Times and of course Wall Street crash was very big in the N.Y. Times. I remember that part of it, I remember very distinctly the bank closing and I think in between that, as I say, we knew the people working in these areas govermnent agencies to help people out, but we simply weren't that much aware of it as they were in the cities because people here at least eould raise an adequate, or fairly adequate, food supply. I know at the store for instance, at Mast's Store, you can look it up in some of the old �24. books down there that Mr. Mast has, long lists of U^/ people who bought an credit for a long period of time until they could find work. But I imagine that right around here probably Mast store carrying people on credit did as much for the local people as some of the government agencies. They know these people; they know that they'd be good for it when they could, but really it didn't make that much of an immediate dent in most people around here. Q: What do you know about government projects WPA? A: Well they built the stone part of the public school down here and they built the post office in Boone, but they were very much present. They worked right here, and I remember the C.C.C. camps very distinctly, although there weren't any around here, but there were some boys who did go to those camps from here. various projects. There were Well, I didn't have any direct .. response to them except I knew people working on them. Q: Do you remember when they started effecting this area, or started working in this area? Well, let me think; it was'32 wasn't it? I'd say it �25. was about a year and a half or two years after that they began to show around here. I'd say and They was slower coming it was slower leaving. Q: Was there ever a scarcity of food among the people? A: Among those families who were not able to, or willing to work on their own crops. Q: Yes, there were some. Were the prices like at the store, were they high or low or during the depression? A: Well, of course compared to now, they were lower by many many times and very few people bought much of their food a:fc''!i the store outside of staples like flour and sugar and coffee. There we're a whole lot more things cheaper than coffee a lot cheaper than hard coffee bought in those days. drinking it. Lot of people are like that, still But, about all j remember in that respect is that the prices in this area seemed to me to stay fairly level. They didn't go up the way they did in some of the cities, because so many of these commodities were raised locally. And so instead of shopping potatoes out - potatoes were a cash crop at that time. Potatoes went to the towns. So these areas shipped out, out of state or further down state. Apples of course were always �26. because there were a number of orchards in this state. Pay was low, I remember that very distinctly. The men working the orchards were making 20 - 400 an hour. And women would come in and do house work, for instance, for a dollar a day. And women, that was a good day of pay. Q: Did any of the people around, try to come up with new ways for making money? A: Well, if I know crops for instance, potatoes were a big crop. Potaotes, cabbage, corn, and various grain, made crops, ^nd then we had a big thing on green beans for a while. And everybody began cash croping the beans, And that, began to fall apart. tobacco began to fail. That was when the Then when I was small, tobacco was not a big crop around here by any means. very small. It was Folks a somebody just grazed small amounts of it themselves. Something of that sort. Just been a shift in emphasis on what crop they could make cash one. Q: How about the schools? Did they change very much during the depression? A: Uh, they began to, the public schools began to pull �27. themselves up by their boot straps. They really began to take a look at what the world works and upgrading. I'ts been a long process. I think the area schools are better now then they ever were before. Even though there's in some of them. been slow improvement, I know But the school term went through- while quality and training of the teachers improved. And prior to the depression, anyone who had a high school education or a __, „ plus would gladly teach in any school they wanted to. And any teacher who had high school, or a little more, why they could teach school. They would make do with what they had at the time, or what the state would give them in the way of money. it wasn't worth much.1 i But I think from the depression on,' the schools were gradually building upwards, constantly. think they've backed any. I don't It's been a constant upward move. Q: How about the churches, did they change much during the depression? A: No, uh I don't tMnk so. Change isrfU something that uh, goes over to big around here. It takes a long �28. time and is slow. People got to stop and see something worse before they're gonna snap it up. They not gonna, somebody come roaring through with a big idea. Not many people around here are gonna fall right in the line and say okay we'll do it right now. first. They got to see if it works I think the churches have held their ground pretty, well here. I think there's less emphasis on the church as a social unit perhaps. But most of the families that went to church then, still go to church now, and they choose which church they go to and uh what the church near to one of them then. Uh, there is to some degree of the church going on the younger generations part. middle age and older groups. of alligience. I think that the It's all a certain shift Someone will belong to one church and marry someone who belongs to another church. And I think the dominant partner in a marriage says as to where the family ends up going to the mothers church or the father's church. This is true today where people don't have that conviction; but their church is the only church that they'll shift. Chances are theys go to church somewhere. Q: What do you think was best about the days back then? A: Well we lost our sense of community togetherness, I'd say. Well, this is still true right around here. If something happens to a family, everybody will get together �29. and try to do everybody will get together and try to do something about it. Or if a family's burned out for instance,everybody goes out and sprays their attic or pantry or what have you, to see what they can spare. Now of course, this has changed to a certain extent because now you can channel it through uh fire department, and before, they didn't have a fire department. was up to the neighbors to get up and do it. Before it Uh, in some ways its not quite as close a religious group because of broad communications and more travel. But still when it comes to punching somebody who's down or something like that, why the people will get together quietly and try to do something about it. Why well, this is an instance. Sort of ties in general things I guess. when my mother died. We were in Boston And coming down my husband asked on the plane, "How much will it cost to have the grave dug?" "I don't plan any arrangements or nothing. says,"What do you mean?" it done. I said,"The neighbors will have They'll get together and have it done. "But won't they charge?" He I said, "No" He says, They expept sometimes when something happens in your family, you'll come and help dig the grave for them. And uh of course we didn't stay at the house after it was closed, my house. Later on we were living here, my son-in-law died, and we didn't go in the kitchen, my step daughter and I, we didn't go in the �30. kitchen for 3 days. over the kitchen. hear a tap Well the neighbors came in and took And everybody brought food. in the door. And you'd It was somebody else with something else to bring food. And this was the way things were taken care fo down here. When something like that happens, the neighbors just sort of take over, help out. Q: I have had a lot of contact with Richard and other people in the valley; and they say it's still alot like that. A: Yes it is. Well, Mrs. Zares died recently. originally She wasn't from here, but she lived here for a few years, Their children live, one in Charlotte, and one in Baltimore I believe. But the same thing happened. Someone from the church, and various other people just came in. And every*- - body brought food. And they just took care of the meals and dishes and everything for the time the family was here. Q: What do you like best about today's life style? A: It's still relaxed^ it's comfortable and you're not pushed too much. If you want to scurry around, but if you'1 don't want to, you can sit back and know things are going to be pretty much theaame. And of course there's more worry about vandelism and breakage and there's more of it. And there's more temptation towards it too. A lot of these �31. houses are closed up six months of the year. But basically I think the community is still a unit. Of course some of us are beginning to worry that ther will be too much building and too much misuse of some of the land. And we'd like to see it kept as a small quiet country community. We have no vital urge for a shopping center or anything like that. So when we get to Boone, and you get all you have over there. Q: If you could change anything now, what would it be? Would you keep the valley like it is? A: To a certain extent. I'm not against people coming -&.. C'-^ in if it's done in a way.it doesn't spoil the valley. 1 A lot of people, a lot of people are crazy to have a golf course out here in the fields. less. But I could care Infect, I would care very strongly that I hope they don't. Because we're; our particular lot is just a little corner surrounded on three sides by a possible golf course, which I don't care for at all. t It's something ,Ife-*riT not resented, but never happy about for $0 years was the fact that I've always t(J h l'^a/H4--^ thought sold the last of the Mhifefter land. Out of a deal, I'd like to have that 70 acres still in my hands even though it is rocky on top of a ridge. But at least I know somebody's not going to put a housing development on it. �32, Q: Well Mrs. Burnham, it's been good talking to you and I sure do appreciate what you told us. Hope we can come back some other time. A: Glad to help you if I have, glad, whatever. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Burnham, March 19, 1973 Description An account of the resource Mary Burnham was born in Avery County where she grew up and attended Mission School for her first nine years of education. She then went to boarding school called Hannamore Academy in Ragerstown, Maryland. Ms. Bornham continued her education at Hood College in Fredrick, Maryland and Drexel Institute of Technology in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She then worked at Swarthmore College for four years as a librarian. She also went to UNC for graduate study in ancient and Medieval history. Ms. Burnham worked as a librarian in the department of zoology at Cornell University and at Shaddock Hospital in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts where she met her husband and eventually after retirement made her way back to the Valle Crucis area. Ms. Burnham explains the history of the Mission School she attended. Ms. Burnham goes into detail about the Valle Crucis community including its history, major events, and the current differences compared to her childhood. Her memories of the area also include politics, specifically elections and the typical transportation of the area. Ms. Burnham then speaks of the traditions and customs of the area such as quilting and weaving. Other traditions she talks about include picking herbs, folktales, and group activities she experienced as a child. Ms. Burnham recollects the Great Depression and its effects on the neighborhood including the public schools and churches. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harmon, Lester Burnham, Mary Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/19/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 32 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape37_MaryBurnham_1973_03_19M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Valle Crucis, NC Subject The topic of the resource Avery County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depression--1929--North Carolina--Avery County Valle Crucis (N.C.)--History--20th century Cornell University Drexel Institute Great Depression Hannamore Academy Hood College Mission School Shaddock Hospital Swarthmore College Valle Crucis https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ab8686b5fb4497ba70bd4c6b5182c071.pdf 074f931fb93d3313700b2501b715bc84 PDF Text Text This is an interview with Ruby Trivette for tLe Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Bullock on February 17, 1973. A: As far back as I can remember when I was a child and lived — I was born in Ashe County, about 20 miles, no, about 15 miles from here; and the family moved to the present location when I was 5 years old. My grandparents lived within sight and I can remember going to my grandparents' home as a child and being homesick. I wanted to go home, and being unable to say "home" or to make that distinction known, I was told I always said, I!I want to ;go walking." Somebody usually pacified me before the time to go home. My memory of life before that time is rather sketchy and varied; I'm not sure what I remember and what I've been told that I was, has become a part of my early memories. Whether this is something I remember or have been told about, it has become a part of my so-called memory. When I was very small, before we moved to this particular area, I can remember riding on the old workhorse (I believe the old horse's name was Kate.). From the barn, I can remember riding the horse with my Father holding me on the horse down to the watering trough in the old spring-place to get — to water the old horse. My Father had some sheep and on this particular Spring, I possibly was four or maybe five, I'm not sure. But among the little lambs there was one black one which became mine by divine right of having my own way; and �I can remember being so proud of that little lamb, and how heartbroken I was when one morning the little lamb did not turn up with the rest of the sheep. When daddy got out to hunting it, why, he found it had died from what reason I have no idea whatsoever. When we first moved to this particular setting, these whole meadows here were covered in mostly laurel, some maple, and other hardwoods of that sort. The creek at that time had many deep holes and my brothers and I found it quite an enticing place to play. There was rather a mythological, scary figure that, we were told, would get us if we went out to the creek. That particular thing we called ol'Bloodybones. I never knew exactly what Bloodybones looked like but it sufficed to keep us away from the creek at a time when we might have been drowned. In fact, I remember one time my younger brother, I recall, was just a small toddler, and he had fallen that crossed the creek. off a footlog At that time we carried water from across the creek from the spring and brought it up the house. He had fallen off into a rather deep hole and fortunately my Mother saw him and was able to yank him out of the hole. And again in those days, toys, such as children have such a number of today, did not exist. For jumpropes, we went over on the hill and cut green briars and very carefully got rid of the briars. But we had some good jumpropes. There was also some sort of a vine and we called it "jackvine". I'm not sure just what the correct name was, but we made ropes and jumpropes and �tied all sorts of things with that. Many times we'd go up onto the mountain into the woods and we'd find wild grapevines. Of course, (at) that age we were not trusted with a knife, but we didn't need a knife many times. We'd find a sharp rock and keep beating and banging and bruising on an old grapevine down at the ground to the point we were able to just get hold of the grapevine and swing out - way out into the woods - it made no difference to us if down underneath us, forty or fifty feet, was a big rock cliff. That didn't bother at all. Q: What was Christmas like? A: What was Christmas like? Christmas for us in the early days was; well, it was a time when we looked forward to it a great deal. It was not commercialized to the extent it is today, and since children didn't have a great deal of toys. If we got one toy, the boys got a jackknife from a Jay Lynn catalog, or a juice harp or French harp. That, maybe one toy, and most of the time we needed shoes or clothing, so maybe we got some clothing, and maybe an orange or nuts, and a little bit of candy - most stick candy than any other kind. I recall one time I got what I thought was the most beautiful doll that I'd ever seen; the first store-bought doll I ever had. or six at the time. Q: What was it like? I must not have been more than five �A: I tell you, I had a rugged life trying to keep up with that bunch of boys; and I didn't think it was fair that they should be able to do anything that I couldn't do. I gave them a hard run for their money - all of them. Q: What was family life like, doing chores? A: Every child had its own particular bit of chores to do, work around the house. In those days there was wood to cut, wood to haul into the woodyard, wood to split for stovewood, and of course, the fireplace wood to be taken care of. There were cattle, cows to milk, and calves to look after, and sheep to be looked after, and horses to be fed and watered, and everybody. . oh, chickens to be looked after. had our own eggs. We raised our own chickens, I remember, possibly when I was five years old, I took a pint cup with my Mother to milk and found out that I could squeeze a little milk out of the old cow. Q: What was the main source of income? A: Farming. That was about all. In those early days people just about raised on the farm what they existed on. Now for sugar and other staples that you couldn't raise, you had maybe some extra chickens and eggs and butter and things like that. It was mostly a barter economy in those days. You would �go to the store with a little jaggard of money and buy a sack of flour or something like that. You traded for it. Particularly in this area, most people just about raised what they lived on. I can remember when we raised our own wheat and had it ground. those days. Buckwheat, we used a lot of buckwheat in We always had that buckwheat. Raised our own, had it thrashed and carried it up to Meatcamp to the Winebarger watermill and had our own flour ground. And all transportation was by horse and wagon, buggy or sled. Q: What about the development of Todd? A: My earliest remembrance of Todd goes back to a time when Todd was quite a prosperous and thriving little metropolis. We had a bank. depot. We had a drugstore. We had, of course, the The train, of course, ran in at that time. The main source of transportation and commerce at that time that brought the railroad in here was the chestnuts, especially the tanbark from the chestnut wood, and cross-ties and things like that. Much of the lumber in the area was sawed up into cross- ties and lumber. It left here by train. Q: Do you remember the train being put in? A: No. I don't remember exactly. I can't recall that, I can just — �I know when the train was here. remember when it came. That probably, no. . .1 don't I couldn't tell you that I knew that. The train was here as far back as I can recall. Q: What about the depression? Do you remember the depression? Can you tell me something about what happened? A: Well, as far as the depression was actually concerned in this area, we had no soup lines, nor did we have anybody on starvation. But again, people who owned their own property or who lived on the land, so to speak, made out with just about what they could raise. Grown men worked many a day for a quarter a day, sometimes fifty cents. But then you could take what you earned (now that was a 10-hour day, not an 8hour day) and go to the local grocery store and carry enough home to feed a huge family on for some time. was just about non-existent. time. Money, as such, Especially at this particular Many people in this area began to raise cabbage for the market, the kro,ut factory at Boone. maybe a quarter of a cent a pound. I believe cabbage was I'm not sure. It finally got to the point that I believe we had a field above the road over here at one time (and) I believe part of it just stood there. Q: There was no sale for it at all. Do you think people were better off out here than they were in the city? �A: In that regard, yes. Because (in) rural life in those days, as well as now, rural people tend to look after each other. If somebody needed help, everybody shared to the last goround. While possibly in towns or in the cities at this particular time, maybe one didn't know what his neighbor needed or maybe there was a different philosophical attitude. Q: Do you think that today that still exists? A: To some extent. However, in this particular area, as far as helping one's neighbor (or it doesn't have to be one who lives nearby, someone in the community who has suffered some misfortune in some way), everybody tends to assist in any way they can. However, the time had come until "my business is not everybody else's business." There is beginning to be a little more of the metropolitan attitude. engrossed in everyone's private affairs. We're not so Now there was a time when practically everyone in any area was somehow related or inter-related and it was just about like one big family in a sense. And today, young people in the rural area have moved out, and as we say, foreigners have come in; and it isn't quite the same. But there's still maybe a sense of a deeper fellowship camaraderie prevalent in many areas. Q: What about the people that are moving in now, the tourists that are at Beech Mountain, Sugar Mountain? �A: Well now, I have little connection with Beech Mountain, Sugar Grove, or anything of that sort. Of course, they have moved in here primarily for summer-home and winter recreational facilities. Most of the people who have come into this particular area who have purchased homes, or even have summer homes, they are — let's say — they own the property, maybe they pay taxes, but as for adding much to the general cultural level of the community, there's not much interchange or relationship in that sense. Q: Do you particularly like it? A: Well, I have no objection to anyone getting rid of his property wherever he wants to. But I'll have to get down to dire need before I'd sell any property to anybody of that sort. I have no, no reason for that except that from what we have been able to see from experience. They, maybe, the general cultural level and educational level have not increased any as a result. Q: I should say that. Do you think these people are kind of destroying the mountains as they were? A: Well, there has been a great deal of change throughout this whole area. Much of it has, in the ecological sense, destroyed the native beauty and attractiveness of the landscape. �10 Q: So you could do without them? A: Well, I could. My livelihood and my economy doesn't depend on them in any way. Q: What about your education? I want you to kind of tell me about your early elementary school and on up until you got your degree to be a teacher. A: Well, when I started to school, there was no laws, no law giving a specific age for entry in school. You went when Mom and Dad decided you was big enough to get there, I guess. I started to school in a little frame schoolhouse about a quarter of a mile from here when I was five. However, before I went to school, I have no recollection at all of when or how I learned to read; but before I ever saw the inside of a schoolhouse, I was reading Zane Grey books and things of that sort. It was just a great deal of that, I'm sure, came through my Grandmother who lived with us for years. us all, I guess, in a sense. boxes and so on. and so on. She taught We read, oh, sugar bags and soda We associated words with what she'd tell us One of the earliest teachers I can remember was Graham - D. W. Graham and his wife. Mr. Graham is now dead and Mrs. Graham is the mother of Dr. James Graham in Boone. They taught at the local school. Wilson Norris of Boone and Mrs. Edith Norris, his wife, also were among my early teachers. �11 Mr. Wade Norris, who died a year or two ago, was an early teacher. Mr. Elic Tugman, the father of the Tugman boys in Boone, and then that just about brings it down to the time that Mr. Ron Davis hit us all broadsided as an elementary teacher. Q: I reckon everyone remembers him? A: Everybody remembers Ron, Mr. Ron Davis. He was an excellent teacher, but we thought he was awfully hard. However, if I was every inspired to aspire to becoming a teacher, I think perhaps he gave me the little leverage I needed to send me on the way. He was very hard. He was quite a stern taskmaster. We soon learned when he said something, he didn't beat about the bush about it, we knew it had to be just as he said it was. Then that just about took me up to the time when we went into highschool, and highschool began at the eighth grade. Mr. Davis continued his education along as he taught, and we thought once we had left the elementary grades that we'd get rid of him; but he came right along up the line, and most of us had him for at least a few classes in highschool. Q: When did you go to college? A: I started college in 1936 and went three years, and completed my B.S. degree in 1940. �12 Q: When did you start teaching? A: I started teaching in the fall of the same year at a school in Wilkes County that is now no longer in existence as such. It was Mount Pleasant High School in Wilkes County at that time. Q: What grade did you teach? A: Well, I'm an English teacher. I taught English. in English, French, and History. I was certified My first year I taught some English, some French, and some History to the various levels. Q: That was 1937 you started teaching? A: I started teaching in 1940. Q: You've been teaching ever since? A: I've been teaching continuously ever since. The first year, or when I applied for a job, jobs were pretty scarce in those days and there was no vacancy in either my own home county of Watauga or Ashe. I had a friend who taught, in fact, he was the principal at this particular school. In communication with him, he told me there was a vacancy in my field and I applied at this school and had the fortune to get a school. My salary was $96 a month. in my life — $96 — The biggest money I've ever earned and 8 months school. �13 Q: What would you do in the summer? A: In the summer months when I was not in school and after I got my B.S. degree, I did not return to school for 3 or 4 years, I'm not sure. Most of my summers I spent at home because the first year I taught, I taught in Wilkes County and the illness of my Mother made it necessary that I stay home. I did apply and was fortunate enough to get a job at the local school just across the hill, almost in sight. years. I taught over here about 7 (As for) my summers up until when the war began, my brothers were all in the service except for one, who was 4-F because of high blood pressure and a heart condition. He hadn't been well for years. Q: What war was that? A: World War II. Mother had a heart condition. Eventually it became necessary that she go to the hospital and remain there for, oh, continuously, for the last six months of her life. And again, that was in the time of World War II when gas rationing and tire rationing and sugar rationing and everything was in effect. and back. I just about had to make a trip a day to Boone With a little understanding on the part of the rationing board, I managed to get enough gas to do the necessary running. A. I believe a C rationing gave you a little more than an An ordinary passenger car, I think, got so many A stamps �14 for a month or so and so. You couldn't get anywhere on that. Q: You remember the flood of '40, don't you? A: The flood of '40, yes. begin in Wilkes County. It was just about time for school to It was to be my first school. Before time for school to start, the flood came and, of course, the road washed out over the top of the mountain out in Deep Gap. Many of the roads to Wilkes County were destroyed and schools were delayed. I'm not sure how long . . . several weeks until the road could be repaired before we could start school. Right here in this valley I well remember it rained for, I don't know, 3 or 4 days almost continuously. afternoon it just continued to pour. about have saturated the whole earth. On this particular The rain seemed to just This particular afternoon it got darker than usual along about 3 or 4 o'clock. continued to pour down. Rain The creek out back of my house in ordinary times was nothing more than a little stream you could almost jump over, and there was a footblock, I guess about 15 or 20 feet above the water that we crossed over going over on the hill. Some of my brothers decided they'd better get out and see about the cattle. We had some milk cows and calves, and they were grazing back on the other side of the creek up on the mountain. So a couple of them took the milk bucket over to the cow and maybe milked; I believe they milked. Before they could get back, I had stepped out on the back porch and saw a veritable wall of water coming down to the house over Balm of Gilead trees, �15 some 30 feet high, I guess. That wall of water, it didn't go over the top of them, it just swayed them over and covered the whole thing. By that time, not only was the wall of water between us and the hill on this side, but the water had cut a new channel and spread out all over those meadows out here. The house here was on the highest ground and it did split going on either side. So part of the family was on that side of the creek and part of it was over here. The boys who were on the mountain side just followed the trail on down to the next neighbor's house and there was no way for them to get across, so they spent the night there. When we realized that it was going to be rather dangerous to stay here, we made arrangements to get out. We chained the car to an apple tree and a couple of my brothers veritably carried our mother out— the water striking the boys (and a couple of them were about grown at that time) above the waist. who lived just across the road. We went over to the people Before we got out, we had 3 or 4 hogs in the hogpen where the water was swirling around. My brother, Tom, took a big old hammer, we called it a rock hammer or a go-devil or something of the sort. He knocked the door down to the hogpen and let the hogs out so they swam out and got around the barn. Even before they could get to safety around the barn, the water was so swift that when the hogs came out of the pen, it just swept them off their feet. Some of them were swept down, oh, between the barn and the house and managed to get out and get back up to the barn. �16 One of the calves that couldn't be satisfied without trying to cross the creek and get back upon the hill where its mother was, washed away. down the river. It managed to get to land about 3 miles Somehow or another there was a little island back there and along with other neighbors'' animals (many of them were washed into the mountain side of the river), managed to get out and survive. Q: So did the hogs drown? A: No, the hogs survived. We lost nothing except an awful lot of topsoil, all the fences we had, and that one calf, I believe, the extent ot it. Q: So most of the people took care of each other? A: Absolutely. Q: What was the feeling? A: Well, we'd never experienced anyting like that before. always had rain. Were you really scared? We'd We..had always been accustomed to the old creek out back of the house. It would get up pretty angry at times and maybe get out of its bank, but nobody ever had any conception of what it would be like for just a veritable downpour such as that, and just sweep houses and cattle and fences and everything away. We had some young fryers. �17 We raised our own at that time, and we had a bunch of young fryers. They got drabbled and somehow or other they'd made their way toward the house and had gotten on the back porch. I grabbed up a chicken coop and slammed some of them inside and took it out to set it in the woodhouse. Just as I set foot in the woodhouse, I felt the whole thing give away. It was gone, chicken coop and all, within the space of five minutes. Q: I just did get out in time. What did most of the people think about the flood afterwards? What was the feeling? A: Well, I guess if you are wondering if the people through this area thought it was a judgement of God or something, I didn't hear anything of that sort. It was a natural phenomenon and most people were so grateful in comparison with the horrors that had been reported from the Wilkes County side and down Elk where the landslide was. So many people had lost their lives, a week or two later they were still finding bodies in brush piles on so on. It was a feeling of gratitude and thank- fulness that it was no worse in this area than it was. So as far as I know, no one in our particular area right here lost anything more than . . . (tape ends). Q: What about church life? A: Well, we are certainly in a strict Bible belt. Within this little community there, up the highway 194 towards Boone, is �18 a little Episcopal church that is no longer being pastored, but in those days it was certainly a vital part of it. And again, in those early days, through Mrs. W. S. Miller (who sort of saw to it that the Episcopal church did continue to live) in many instances, books, printed material and sometimes clothing, through her effort were sent outside this little area to help many of the people who had large families. Not many of them had much reading material. Of course there are a lot of these churches in our community. There's the Baptist church, of which I am a member, and all my forefathers before me. The next largest was Methodist and then Holiness church, the Holiness Tabernacle Church. was the pastor. Mr. Ed Blackburn Have you talked with Ed? You must. Q: Ed kind of helps out everybody, right? A: Ed"s mother and my grandmother were sisters, and not only does Ed sort of look after the spiritual welfare of all the people, it doesn't make any difference, rich or poor, stranger or a next-door neighbor, anyone who needs help, Ed's right there. Q: How had the church changed from when you were a little girl to now? A: Well, the biggest change that I see - when I was a little girl the church that I attended was located about a half a mile up South Fork river from Todd. It was just an old frame building. We had the old pot-bellied stove in the middle of the church. �19 The church was just one big room. Of course it was curtained off eventually for Sunday School rooms and then we'd draw the curtains for the auditorium for the preaching and so on. Other than the style, of course, of the so-called ministry, the attitude of the people, I guess you could say, have changed more than anything else. Right now we have a rather comfortable brick building down in the little village itself. We have a beautiful auditorium; and we have, I couldn't tell you, a dozen or more Sunday School rooms, and all the space in the world we need. In those old days, and I can remember back then, we didn't have a regular preacher right here for this particular church, but I don't know, maybe once or twice a month these preachers (one of them a Preacher Roberts) would ride the train in from Abingdon or Bristol or somewhere, I'm not sure just where. And if they came on a Saturday now, we had Saturday services. There were two services, maybe in those days maybe two services a month. There would be a Saturday service and then a Sunday service. The minister who came in to pastor the church would spend the night among some of his parishioners and on Sunday, would preach and, I guess, I don't recall definitely, but I assume that he had to stay over til Monday to take the train back. Transportation, I can remember, we walked to church or if we didn't walk, we rode in a wagon or a buggy or something like that. weather everybody walked. Most of the time in pretty �20 Q: Was Sunday a real exciting time, something to look forward to? A: Well yes, everybody was just . . . church about the only place you went during the week in those days. It was not only the spiritual center, but the recreational center. Friends, relatives, and neighbors seldom saw each other more than on Sunday, you know, and so everybody found out everybody else's affairs and how everybody was doing. It was not only a worship service and Sunday School, but it was just a general get-together. Q: Do you think now that churches have lost that get-together sort of thing? A: Well, not in our rural area. Most people still have that. Taking myself as an example, I certainly would have to say it's different because I'm usually about the first one out of church and I zoom home to get me something to eat. But generally speaking, everybody stands around, especially in pretty weather, and talks, you know, and nobody is in any hurry to get home — except me. I guess perhaps one reason for that — have very few ties with many of the people in that right now I community except church attendance and the little rural store down here. I see more of the people in the West Jefferson area where I teach than I do around here. Perhaps the attitude of people towards spiritual things has changed a little bit in some areas, but we're pretty narrow-minded here. Right's right and wrong's wrong, and there's no gray shades in between. �21 Now I didn't quite finish awhile ago about my education after I got my B.S. degree and went to teaching. Of course, there was a regulation at that particular time that within five years you must renew. So when I started back to renew, I also started work on my Masters degree which I finished in '53, while I taught school 9 months of the year and went to school 12 months, Saturday and extension classes and so forth. Q: You said your mother lived to be 104 years old? A: My grandmother. Q: Could you tell me a little bit about her? A: Well, my grandmother was a Tatun and that is one of the old families of the county. She came from a large family. I don't recall now the names of her brothers, but they were all a longlived people. Q: How many were there? A: I just don't remember. Now when you talk to Mrs. Miller down here (of course, we are related through the Tatun side), she can fill you in on a great deal of this that I do not know a thing about or have forgotten. �22 Q: Remarkable. A: Oh yes. One thing I remember about her was that she was of the old school that believed in many of the superstitions as we would call them now. She thought that when the master of the house died, if you had bees, and you didn't go out and tell the bees that the head of the house was gone that . . .(phone rings). Q: You were talking about the bees. A: Well when my father died I remember distinctly we had I don't know how many hives of bees out here in the yard, about where the pear tree is now. She tied a black arm band or ribbon or something around her arm, and she took her cane her way out there from hive to hive. and she made She was saying to each hive, "The master of the house is dead. The master of the house is dead". Q: I've never heard of that before, A: You haven't. Well, that's an old New England custom at least. But I remember distinctly she believing it. Q: What other folktales? A: Grandmother believed in witches. There was, I'm not sure, �23 I don't recall enough of the details to be specific about it, but among her acquaintances as a young woman, there was someone who had the name of being a witch. And if this particular woman had any grievance against you, she would cast a spell on your milk cow and it would give bloody milk or completely go dry, or cast a spell on a child and it would get sick. There was some tale that she told about this particular woman planting a little handful of some sort of bean that she did some incantation over, and over this little handful of beans when they were planted, when she harvested, she had a bushel. I'm not sure of the amount, 1 just remember some fantastic amount like that. She believed in witches now, she knew from first hand, you know. At least in the cultural society in which she grew up, that was true. I don't remember so much about, oh, many of the older sayings about the weather and, of course, people in an earlier time didn't have the weather report to depend on. all the signs and importance of the weather. Grandma knew I don't recall that she knew any more than just the regular old things, red clouds at night, and an east wind and the things like that, the weather that would naturally follow, so to speak. Q: What does a red cloud mean? A: Well, red clouds in the morning, sailors take warning; red clouds at night, sailors' delight. Of course, atmospheric conditions, it produced the different things. An east wind which would �24 make the smoke from the chimneys settle pretty close to the ground, that was a pretty good sign that it was going to rain or weather because, again, atmospheric conditions being what they were, it would be natural, but that was the way they more or less examined it. Owls, over the hills and hooting around, why, in about 3 days you'd have bad weather. Q: Groundhogs? A: Oh, you'd better believe it. Grandmother was also a devout believer in the phases of the moon. You planted in the moon, you put a new roof on a building in the moon, you killed briars and bushes by cutting them on some phase of the moon. You planted beans at one time, potatoes at another, and cucumbers, the sign just had to be just right. I believe maybe the Twins, I'm not sure, to have a good crop of cucumbers. Q: And she lived this? A: Yes, as much as she could. own sheep. I have seen her take wool from our I have helped wash the wool, clean it, and I remember seeing her spin thread from that wool. Q: What about her crafts? A: Well, Grandmother could do just about most anything, as far as I know. What talent did she have? She would card and spin and knit and do general sewing. �25 I don't recall that she did much cooking after I can remember. I'm sure she did. She had an idiosyncracy about her food: bread, especially her cornbread, was unsalted. her When mother baked cornbread there was always a little tiny cake put in the pan that had no salt in it. Q: Why? A: I don't remember. I just don't remember. I'v e often wondered if that wasn't one reason she did live to be so old, that maybe no salt to have any effect on blood pressure or anything of that sort. Now I do remember, not only she, but my mother, and my mother's mother, who lived right up above us here, saved ashes from the fireplace. Especially if a certain kind of wood had been burned, the ashes were always saved and put into an ash hopper, or an old hollow log that was sitting upon a board. They kept the good ashes — wood ashes, I'm not sure — I guess it was hard- through the wintertime, and come spring after having saved up all the meat scraps and grease and so on through the winter, on a nice warm spring day, an old big wash pot, big old iron pot fixed up on a tripod, you could make a fire underneath it, was filled with water. morning the water was heated. Very early that You kept pouring water up in the ash hopper and gradually it made its way down through — through — and came out as pure lye, old brown lye. seeped After you got I don't know how much, but however large the amount was or what they wanted, then that was put into a wash pot, or wash tub, and the meat scraps and grease, and so on, and mixed in. It came out �26 and made soap. soap. I couldn't tell you how, but it made soap—soft Or cook it a little longer and maybe add a little borax or something, maybe make hard soap. That was about the kind of soap you used for general cleaning and washing. Q: About taking a bath — A: Oh heavens no! you didn't have a bathtub? We had an outdoor "johnnie" winter and summer. You would go out to the "johnnie" in the wintertime and the wind blew through the cracks and sift snow all over you. you got a bath — it was in a washtub — And and you got an all- over bath about once a week, I'd say. Q: You would just wash off? A: You just "swiped" off otherwise. In the springtime, about the first day of May was time to go barefoot. Any child that wasn't allowed to pull off their shoes and go barefoot from then to a frost, was a sissy! The biggest job our mother had was to try to get our feet washed before we went to bed, because we'd always have a stubbed toe or scratched foot or something; and it dirty, it hurt so bad to wash it off. If possible, we liked to sneak off to bed without washing our feet. with that very few times. Q: Did you all have feather beds? A: Oh yes, I reckon so! But I tell you, we got by �27 Q: What about the politics, the first election that you voted in? A: The first election I voted in, uh, let me go back a little bit and tell you about the elections long before I voted. In fact, some of my earliest recollections and especially before Presidential elections in this area, there were about two things you'd get into arguments about, politics and religion. Before Presidential elections, people's emotions ran pretty high. Parents didn't even let their children go down to the little village much on Saturday evenings, when the local gentry gathered together assisted by a little moonshine. high and fights were pretty common. Emotions got pretty Again, I don't remember this, but I do remember hearing that my grandfather was an avid politician. More than once he just about climbed some of his friends, you know — good friends any other time. election time, they differed in their politics. But come Now, they sort of lost track of friendship till after the election. Now I can't tell you what my reaction was to the first election I voted in. I suppose I looked forward to it with a great deal of anticipation because I guess it was a milestone in my life. I have attained my majority, I can vote. Well after all, The first time I voted was just a regular state and local election. I had to wait another 4 years for my first Presidential election. Q: You remember who was running? A: No, I don't remember too much. Let's see. Probably the one that made the greatest impression on me might've been about the �28 first time I voted for a President, was Franklin D. Q: Was he real popular in this area? A: Well, not in the beginning. But he started activities that he brought out in programs that he espoused that did tend to make finances and economic conditions a little more stable. Yes, he was. He was a popular person. Q: What about Mr. Truman? A: Well, everybody through this section that I had any contact with, was a little bit skeptical of Harry S., but were quite pleased when he did show enough initiative to take over and do. He was a peppery little man with his sometime obscenities. He was a popular man. Q: Well, what about Eisenhower? A: Everybody liked "Ike" pretty well. "splash" in this area. He didn't make a great Franklin D. was the flamboyant President. Of course, the President during war times. From Franklin D. to John F. Kennedy, I guess those were the two that made the biggest impression on people or made the biggest impression on me. Q: Do you like Kennedy? �29 A: Well, he presented a different aspect. I think young people had a tendency to identify with him more than any of the others. Q: What about Johnson? A: Well, again, personnally, I'm talking from my own ideas now, my own attitude toward Johnson. I thought when Johnson came in as President under the conditions that he had to become President under, I thought that he conducted himself very well. I'd always been a little bit leary of him because he was such a "wheeler-dealer" all during his earlier political life, and I guess throughout his presidency. Frankly, I was little bit sorry for Johnson during the latter days of his administration. Things had just gotten out of hand, and it looked as if nobody could do anything about it. He was bearing the brunt of something that had started years earlier. Q: And what about Mr. Nixon? A: Well, I guess Mr. Nixon has had to make his mark on the world. I'm not sure just what my attitude toward Mr. Nixon is. Sometimes I think he has, and is doing, a remarkable job. Then again, I begin to think we have a dictator instead of a President. Before I pass judgment on Mr. Nixon, I think maybe I'll have to wait until his term of office is out and do that in retrospecti'\ action rather than perspective. I really don't �30 know. I am glad that he has been able to bring things to a wind-down in Vietnam. wind down much. However, I don't think it's going to All I'm hoping is that we get our POW's out. And then let them have it! Q: What about Vietnam in this area, how did people feel about it? A: Well, it was a useless war. of it. Most people could see little use Just as we take our religion seriously - we still believe in "Mom, God, and apple pie" country and so on. Most people through this area, they weren't in favor of going to fight in Vietnam, or anything of the sort. But I don't recall anyone who deliberately left the country, or anything of the sort to keep out of it. Q: So as far as overall policies are concerned, you think Mr. Roosevelt was good? A: Well, he made a bigger impression on me perhaps at that particular time. colorful. He was the most flamboyant, picturesque, And in that time, when he would come on the radio, "My fellow Americans" — why, it would just about make chills chase up and down your spine! Q: What about the law, police officers, etc? A: Well, when I was a child, about the only police officer we ever saw or heard tell of was maybe the County Sheriff or Deputy, �31 who had a bunch of bloodhounds trying to chase down somebody who had broken in and stolen something. knew. That was about all I The idea of a bloodhound was enough to make my blood curdle.' I don't suppose that other than that, I had much idea of what law was about, because I just didn't come in contact with it. Q: Do you think that the people, when you were small, were the law? Like they said "This is right, this is wrong." A: I'm not sure, I could not answer that. I just don't know. This particular little area through here was pretty law- abiding. We had an individual or two who was known to be what we called just a veritable rogue, and everything that got gone was blamed on one or two individuals, whether they were responsible or not. I remember very well that we had some hams to disappear from the old spring house. We knew where they went. We didn't have any proof or anything, but we knew where they went. Someone broke in the little service station that was in operation right across the road and everybody knew pretty well where the things went. Nobody had any proof, but everybody knew. Q: If you could change something back to the way it was, what would you change? A: I have no idea. �32 Q: As far as the community is concerned? A: Perhaps, if it had been possible or if it were possible to bring our little village back to the status and standards it once had here, it today would have been a private metropolis. If we could go back to that time and continue to grow, I've always wondered what would have happened had our bank and drugstore and all our facilities continued to expand instead become sort of a ghost town, as it did become. The chestnuts sort of all died of blight and the timber supply cut off. Q: Looking at Boone, don't you think the people out here have a little something that they don't find in Boone? A: We have a little something that Boone is missing now, earlier times in when Boone was more provincial, long before we had all the growth. Even the industry — I think industry is the backbone of the county and of the economy. But yes, some of the provincial attitudes and the neighborliness, general neighborliness, has disappeared. life. It was one time a part of I suppose we still have that to an extent out in most of the rural areas. Q: How do you feel about women's lib? A: 1 guess I would have to say that I'm in favor of equal rights �33 for women. A lot of this so-called stuff I read in here, it has little interest for me, except that 1 think a woman should be paid on the same basis as a man for a job she does just as well, and sometimes better. And I have yet to find that. But there are very few men who I would regard to be my intellectual superior. Q: How would your grandmother feel? A: Well, my grandmother on my mother's side was rather conservative. My grandmother on my father's side was quite conservative. However, she lived through the Civil War, when she found that she had to take the old mules or whatever they used, and go out in the fields and plow. than you would expect. She was a little more independent maybe And, of course, that sense of independence came because mostly through that she had to sort of take over and be the head of the house. Q: So, you don't think that a woman's place is at the home? A: For a woman who wants to make the home and family her life, that's fine. For those who want to combine them and have both, that's fine. But as far as carrying it to the extent that some of our women "libbers" are, I think it's mostly to get attention rather than action. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Document A resource containing textual data. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre text. Scanned by Wetmore, Dana Equipment Hp Scanjet 8200 Scan date 2014-02-11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruby Trivette, February 17, 1973 Description An account of the resource Ms. Trivette's interview consists of many memories from her childhood including growing up on a farm, what the town of Todd was like, and her experiences in the schoolhouse setting. She then goes further talking about her memories of her education leading up to her teaching career. Although she mentions little on World War II, she talks more in detail about the Great Depression and what its effects were like on the neighborhood. Ms. Trivette also recollects her personal experience with the flood of 1940. She explains what local church was like when she was younger compared to her current experiences with church. Ms. Trivette also speaks of the folktales her grandmother believed in. By the end of the interview, Ms.Trivette discusses politics from her childhood to the present including elections and presidents. While speaking of politics, she mentions past laws and offers her opinion on women's equality. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bullock, Bill Trivette, Ruby Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/17/1973 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 33 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 111_tape33_RubyTrivette_1973_02_17M001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Todd, NC Subject The topic of the resource Country life--North Carolina--Todd Todd (N.C.)--History--20th century Todd (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Ashe County bartering Bible Belt Bloodybones buckwheat Christmas D.W. Graham Deep Gap farming flood of 1940 jackvine Politics red cloud sheep superstition Tatun teacher Todd Wilkes https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3aeeaf308ceb052510e4cdf8e87ad22e.mp3 0b9d918f32fd32d6133a1758eb93924f https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/830a6f5fc4916a88e5a974b7ed6225dd.mp3 0a59da7c9ba4a294023e100f4787e639 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/15afd20c10710e9d450e93672c800166.pdf dd10ff6e97edcf57fea25183a452af40 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 34 Interviewee: Edward Blackburn Interviewer: Bill Ballock 2 March 1973 BB: Bill Ballock EB: Edward Blackburn OB: Ollie Blackburn BB: This is an interview for the Appalachian Oral History Project with Edward Blackburn at Todd, North Carolina, on March 2, 1973 by Bill Ballock. Tell your name and start out from there. EB: I’m Ed Blackburn and I live at Todd, North Carolina. I’ve lived here for 80 years and I’m a preacher. I have, in the past been a mail carrier, but today I’m trying to preach. Lived here in the mountains and worked with mountain people, think they’re the finest people in the world. That’s not belittling anybody else, but I appreciate and honor them. Want to be an honor to the mountains. Is that thing (the tape recorder) running now? BB: Just don’t even pay any attention to it. EB: Now, you go ahead and talk to me. BB: Okay. Can you tell me something about your childhood? EB: Yes, a little bit. I remember not too much about it. I remember many years back, born here in Ashe County and lived here, as I said once, all my life. Went to school here, what little I went, and went to the First World War. Went through the First World War through the entire was except for 14 days. Came back and lived here ever since. This has been my home ever since. All my life this has been my home. I have seen Boone when it was just a few white houses there and the streets were two feet deep of mud. If you got across the street you got across on a pile of ashes. You missed the ashes and you went in the mud to your knees. I’ve seen West Jefferson come from a house or two to a nice town. Seen the railroad come in here and helped work on it. I drove pegs for the engineers, helped work on the track and I’ve seen it come and go. BB: What about the railroad? What did you do on the railroad? EB: I helped the engineer survey it and worked on the track work. And then I helped grade it, helped grade the whole thing. Helped make it, everything but the coaches and the engines. 1 �BB: Where did it start out? EB: Where did it start from? Abingdon, Virginia. Came to Todd, 76 miles, 76 miles and so many tenths to Todd. Came in and out once a day. Stayed all night here and then went out in the morning, came back in the evening. Todd used to be a business place. Had a bank, drugstores, and how many grocery stores I’ve forgotten. Lots of numbers of people lived here. It’s just a ghost town now because all the old people are dead and all the young people have moved away. And the banks are gone, the money is gone, the timber is gone, and most of the land is gone. BB: How did people feel about the railroad here in Todd? EB: Well, they wanted it to come in you know. They didn’t know it was going to ruin us and take all our timber out and leave us nothing. We wanted it to come in. BB: So you think after it left it was bad? EB: Yes, yes. It left us in a lot worse shape. All of our timber gone and not anything to show for it. OB: It should have gone on up to Boone. EB: Sure, if it went on up to Boone it would be running today. West Jefferson over there is a thriving town and it came into West Jefferson now one or two times a week. (The railroad) hauls freight in there. No passenger trains, no mail. Used to run a passenger train in there and carried the mail. BB: It did run a passenger train? EB: Yes, oh yes. Two times a day the Lord blessing. One in the morning and one in the evening. In and out. Passenger train and freight, sometimes two freights. Loads of them, double heading out here, a number of cars loaded with timber. BB: So if you wanted to change it back, you wouldn’t let the railroad come back? EB: No. I wouldn’t work on it. In fact, I would get other people not to. That’s right, keep what we have. BB: Well, they tell me you are a preacher. Can you tell me something about how you got started in that? EB: Yes, well the Lord called me. Yes, I’m a preacher honey. Got a lovely church over here. The finest people in the country come there. I got started because the Lord called me to be a preacher. I didn’t want to be a preacher. I wanted anything in the world besides being a 2 �preacher. I really wanted to be a drunkard, and drink liquor and carouse around. But the Lord saved me. Then He called and saved me and delivered me from drinking liquor. He called me to be a preacher. And now I’m preaching and wouldn’t do anything else now. I’m not much of a preacher, but I’m the best preacher I know how to be. God bless you. BB: When did it start? EB: When did I start preaching? I started preaching in about 1922 or ’23. BB: What brought it on? Did you go to school? EB: No, never been, just went through the schoolhouses. Ran a mill, only school college I’ve ever been in. I used to run a mill in Todd and sell meal to the Boone College. That’s the only college I know anything about; selling meal. I’ve been to college anyhow selling them meal. BB: So you just took the preaching on your own? EB: Yes, thank God. On my own. Lived by it. Only way I have of getting a penny is what people give me. Nobody behind me but the Lord and that’s enough. God called me and I’ve worked with everybody that needs help. OB: He’s worked all his life and got Social Security. EB: I draw Social Security, but not enough. BB: Do you get paid for preaching? EB: Yes sir. Got a lovely congregation. Get a little, sometimes get more than others. Take an offering every morning when I preach. I just preached over here at the tabernacle two times a month, second and fourth Saturday. And somebody takes an offering for us. BB: What’s the name of the church? EB: Blackburn Memorial Church and Campground. I want you to go out and get a history of it, get you to look at it and take the history down off of the sign. BB: How did it come about that you’re preaching? How were you called? EB: Well, the Lord just called me you know. I got saved from being a drunkard and the Lord called me to be a preacher. Why, I don’t know, but He called me to be a preacher. I just went to doing things that preachers ought to do. Not like other men can, but the best I could. And God called me to be a preacher and I’ve been faithful to the job ever since. OB: He gets busier everyday about it, counseling with somebody. Some drunkard or some 3 �family having trouble. BB: What people come here? EB: Drunks, folks trying to get delivered from liquor, folks having marriage troubles, about to separate, parting, fussing and fighting. Come here day and night to be prayed with and counseled with, talked to and prayed for. Thank God. God had blessed us so far with a fruitful ministry. BB: They told me that once you got sick. Could you tell me something about that? EB: Once I was seriously sick. So sick they thought I would die you know. They sent me to the hospital against my will. They sent me to West Jefferson and the hospital at Jefferson kept me 18 or 19 days and couldn’t find what was the matter with me. And they sent me from there to Winston-Salem. When I got to Winston I was so near dead they gave me eight pints of blood. And that’s about all of it. But I stayed down there 18 or 19 days and they were going to operate on me, but I couldn’t take it. I was weak. I couldn’t stand an operation. I prayed and before the Lord and the host of heaven, God healed me and I came home the day they were supposed to operate on me. That night – the doctors and nurses came in to get me ready for an operation and I told the nurses, “God’s healed me. I’m going home. I want you to send me home today.” That excited the nurses and the doctor came in and told him that, and then he went out of the room. And several other doctors came in. They pushed me and then rolled me, then looked in my eyes, looked at my fingernails and examined my feet and had a counsel and told me I could go home. But when I got ready to come home there were a number of people there that came to set up the operation. Felt sorry for my mom you know and my children. I was getting my clothes on and getting ready to come home and I told the doctor, “I’ll never be back down here unless I come to pray for somebody.” I’ve been back twice, or three times. OB: Why don’t you tell the whole story? EB: Well, I’ve told enough of it, haven’t I? BB: I want the whole story. OB: The night you were healed, don’t you remember? EB: Yes, yes. I was praying you know, the night before the operation and a nurse came through and turned my pitcher upside down, the water pitcher, and I knew that was bad business. I was burning up and wanted water. The nurse came in and turned my water pitcher upside down, no 4 �more water for me. If I had money I would have hired somebody to pour water for me, but I didn’t have that kind of money and had to depend on the nurses and the orderlies. The nurse came through or one of the aides came through and turned my pitcher upside down and I knew that there was no more water for me. I knew what was coming. I knew that I was so weak and couldn’t take it. I was already dead. I just told God that I couldn’t take it. And sometime through the night, somebody came to by bed and called me name and said, “You don’t need an operation.” Next morning I was able to come home. Thank God. And I’ve been home ever since and I work like a slave, day and night. I haven’t ever been sick any more and I’m 80 years old this coming August. Thank God. That’s what God done for me. BB: You sure don’t look 80 years old. EB: I have been out here sawing wood. BB: My father is 50 years old and you look twice as young as he. EB: What about that? Bless your daddy honey. BB: What about the community itself? What do you think of the Todd community? EB: I think its marvelous and wonderful. One of the best anybody ever had the privilege to live in. Thank God. The best neighbors that God could set down around you. Anything you need, somebody will bring it to you and see about you. That’s what I think about it. It’s so good I nearly disgraced it by living here, that’s what kind of place it is. Marvelous. OB: Tell him how we worship. EB: Well, just like anybody else so far as I know. We go to church. OB: Well, I mean we’re all one. EB: Sure, sure. Our prayer meetings, we all worship together you know. We have a prayer meeting in the Baptist church, and we’re known as Holiness people. We go to the Baptist church and the next night they come to the tabernacle church, and the next night we go to the Methodist church. We worship all the way around. And nobody knows whether uncle Ed belongs to the Baptist church or the Methodist church. And I don’t know whether the Baptist church belongs to our tabernacle or the Baptist church. We don’t pay any attention to that, we just worship God, and get along good. It’s a marvelous community. Nobody’s got a better one. BB: As time goes on, do you think that it’s losing out, that people are getting away from each other? 5 �EB: Yes, I do believe the young people are as time goes on. Yes, I do. And the old people are dying and that cripples us some. But so many of our young people have moved off from this country see, they had to leave here to get a job. And we just get them through high school and many of them through college and they’ve got to go somewhere else to get a job you know, to work out a living. So that just leaves the young and the old folks. You know the old folks die one by one and leave. And then these other children go to college and then they get…raised. Ma’am and me raised five children, two boys and three girls. Our baby is in New Jersey, she’s a librarian. I got a boy in Virginia Beach, Virginia; he’s a printer for the United States government. He has been thee a long time, soon to retire. And I got a boy that lives at Cherryville. He drives for the Carolina Freight and he’s been there for years. We have a daughter that lives in Abingdon, Virginia. She married a builder contractor and they have a supermarket. They are building a supermarket. Our oldest daughter married a sanitary and county health officer and they live here in Ashe County. Five lovely children and all of them seem to be doing well. BB: That’s just great. It’s just beautiful out here. I don’t see why any young people would want to leave. EB: Thank you, it is beautiful. And we live in an old house. OB: I’ll tell you why the young people, our children…every one of them get so homesick to come to the mountains to live. But you see, where we made the mistake was selling every stick of timber we had here for the railroad and letting the companies come in here and carry it off, haul it off on the train out away from here. And wouldn’t let companies come in here. We could have had factories up here, all kind of furniture factories and everything if we hadn’t loved our little dirt. You see we loved the dirt better than if we loved… EB: Sure. They wanted to buy land for factories. OB: And we wouldn’t sell them land. And see that’s the reason our children now had to reap the results of it. They had to get an education and go somewhere else to get a job. BB: What do you think about somebody who would want to come out here and farm and try to preserve what you have? EB: I think it’s wonderful. I think that young people can come and live conservative and buy a farm and get rich, thank God. Say raise enough cattle to get rich. Right here in these mountains, men are doing it. I don’t. I don’t have a cow. Don’t have anything but some fish and wild ducks. That’s all the property we’ve got. I own 27 acres of land here and this old house is over 176 years old, where you’re sitting now. 6 �All handmade, all worked with hands. And there’s a door that doesn’t have a nail in it unless I put it in. The house is put together with wooden pegs. It’s been here we know for 176 years and we think several years longer. BB: Do you know who built it? EB: We think we know. We think a man by the name of “Younce,” who has been dead for many many years you know. We think he built this house here. This house and the soldiers, Northern soldiers came down and burned my grandfather’s house down. This was his workhouse where he loomed, had looms, and wove their cloth and cooked here. OB: Made their shoes. EB: The fireplace was six feet across and I filled it in. But this was just and outhouse. Northern soldiers burnt the house down out here and left our people with nothing. Took their meat and the horses, and burned a lot of their clothes. Just left my grandparents with nothing. BB: So you remember your grandparents talking about the Civil War? EB: Yes, I just barely can, the Lord bless you, just barely. OB: His mother was 11 years old. EB: Yes, when they burned the house and she’s been dead for years. BB: So they did come through this way? EB: They did come right through here and burn the nice home out here on this hill right out here. You can go out there and dig up charcoals from it right now. BB: And you’re 80 years old? EB: I’m 80 years old this coming August. BB: Okay. What do you think about politics? EB: Politics? Well, I think that we need two kinds. I think we need two good parties and I think that both sides do so sorry that I’m ashamed of both sides. I vote for one then I wish I had voted for the other because we do things. They tell us we’re not going to do one thing and the next day they do it. Then I think I ought to have voted for the other fellow. I think we need two good parties and men to be honest and upright and tell us the truth and do the best they can for us and quit lying to us. We know they can’t do all the things they tell us they’re going to do because we haven’t got enough money to do it. 7 �BB: Do you remember the first election you voted in? EB: No, I can’t remember darling. No. BB: Who was the first president that you remember? EB: Oh, I remember Teddy Roosevelt and Mr. McKinley. I remember, I was just a boy though, but I remember when the news traveled so slow you know, about killing McKinley. I remember that. BB: What did you think of Roosevelt? EB: Well, I was just a boy. Didn’t make any different to me darling. Just another man and I heard by father and mother talk about him you know. Teddy Roosevelt. BB: What about Truman? EB: Yes, I loved Harry Truman. I think he was an excellent president. He would tell you what to expect and then he did it. And if you didn’t like it he would fight you if you wanted to fight. I think he was fine. BB: What about Eisenhower? EB: I think he was great. BB: You did? You liked Eisenhower then? EB: Yes, I liked him good enough to vote for him. BB: What about Kennedy? EB: Not struck on Kennedy. I’ll not comment why, but I’m not struck on him. I didn’t give a dime if it’s on the signboards in Broadway, New York City. BB: What about Johnson? EB: I liked Mr. Johnson, thought he was a nice, fine gentleman. BB: What about Mr. Nixon? EB: I think he’s fine. I quarrel with him sometimes, cuss him sometimes for things he does and don’t do. But I think he’s going be a fine president. I think he’s doing the best he can. BB: What was World War One like? 8 �EB: It was rough, rough, rough. World War One was rough. I volunteered and went. The war was declared the 6th day of May and I enlisted in the World War the 17th day of May. I wanted to go to the war and then I went, but wanted to come home. Went to France and fought through the Meuse-Argonne Forest, Mont Saint-Michel, close to Verdun, and sector near Verdun. I saw the Hindenburg line broke where Von Hindenburg said there wasn’t enough men this side of hell to go through that line and the American soldiers went through it and tore it all to pieces and whooped their hind ends off. BB: And you were in it? You were fighting? EB: I was there. Came out of the lines on November 11th, 1918. BB: And then you went to World War Two? EB: I wasn’t in World War Two, no. BB: You were at home right? EB: I was at home, yes. BB: Were you preaching then? EB: Yes. BB: What was it like during World War Two? EB: Well, I wasn’t in it. I just knew all the men that was in it. I knew lots of the men that did go you know. But I wasn’t in it. I didn’t have any part of lot in it except to work you know. I worked in the defense plant, the most of the time during the Second World War in Coats, Pennsylvania for a steel mill. A big steel mill. BB: What about Vietnam? What about the people here at home? How do they feel about it in your community? EB: Well, I think the majority of us thought that we had it to do. That there wasn’t anything else to do is what I think. They didn’t fight as rough as I wanted them to fight. I wanted them to thrash the face out of them and get out of it. Give them a thrashing and come home, but we just played along with them and didn’t whoop them. I wanted to whoop them good and come out. BB: Are you glad that the Peace… EB: I am delighted! I want to be a peacemaker honey. That’s my business, being a peacemaker. But if I have to fight you I’m going to fight awful rough while I fight. 9 �BB: What about the Depression? EB: Yes, I lived through that. It didn’t make much difference to me because we’re kind of depressed every day anyhow. But we did get through it, but it was a hard time, the Lord bless you. It was a hard time. BB: What did you do during the Depression? EB: Well, I lived right here and raised cabbage and Irish potatoes and sent children to school, right here. BB: Do you think that it was easier for the people, the farmers than it was for the people in town? EB: Yes, I do. The man that had the farm knew how to work it and to manage. He had a better chance of surviving than the people in town because they didn’t have anything. They were just out. BB: You didn’t have any trouble getting clothes or shoes and stuff did you? EB: Oh, no. No, we had clothes, had shoes, and had plenty to eat what it was. But we didn’t have any money. BB: You wouldn’t want to see another Depression would you? EB: No, no. Never want to see another Depression. Don’t ever want to see ten-hour workdays come back. I want good wages and honest work. I do believe in a man that’s getting two dollars an hour ought to be able to put out and work for two dollars an hour. BB: I reckon that you remember the flood of 1940 too, don’t you? The flood? EB: Yes, I do. BB: I reckon as a preacher that you had right much to do? EB: Yes, I had much to do the entire time son. OB: When was the flood? EB: 1962, wasn’t the flood the one I’m thinking about here in ’62? We about washed away in this country. I think it was in…no, in 1943, wasn’t it ’43? BB: Yes, somewhere in there. Do you remember it? 10 �EB: Yes, oh yes. I had a mill down here in this little village we call Todd. And I came home and when I came around the curve coming out of Todd, there was a high place there. I turned around, looked around and told God and to myself, “This is the last time I’ll ever see Todd if it doesn’t quit raining.” And that night two or here buildings went out of Todd all together like an ark. The buildings went right down the stream all together. There was a mill there, a big mill. That mill was taken out, a store on the other side of the creek away from the water; the rain took the store just like an ark was floating down the creek. But God ceased the rain and that is the only reason that Todd didn’t wash away. OB: Right here, over there came a big crack on the hill. EB: Yes, the mountain cracked there. And had it slid off, there wouldn’t have been anything left in the village. It would have all went out; too much dirt and water. I saw that. BB: Did anyone come to your house for refuge? EB: Yes, we had company. Some of our kinfolk were here. They got caught in the storm here and had to stay here. BB: Were all of you scared? EB: No, we weren’t scared here on the hill. We thought my, lots of water, but we didn’t think it would get to us and it didn’t. BB: I was talking to Miss Trivette and she said their house almost washed away. EB: Oh, yes. All around them. BB: I reckon that was a pretty bad time. EB: Yes. Serious time, serious time. BB: Getting back to your childhood, what can you remember about it now? Was it like growing up in the mountains? EB: Marvelous, wonderful. I had a good daddy and a good mother and didn’t know what trouble was. He was a hard worker and had a good farm and made all the things we needed to live on except clothes and shoes. It was marvelous. I would love to go back and live through it again. Didn’t know what trouble was. Didn’t know we would ever see a day that we didn’t have enough. Thank God! BB: What kind of games did you play? EB: We just played what we called back in those days “Base.” We didn’t know anything about 11 �baseball and things like that. We just played Base, “Dare Base” and would run like wild men. We would see who could outrun the other and who could break the other side. If we ever made a circle around the others man’s home, we would break him up and had to start over again. If we would catch his men off a base, we would put them in jail. We would get all of his men until he was overpowered, why we broke him up again. BB: What was it called? EB: We called in “Base,” or “Dare Base.” We would have a line and dare a fellow to come put his foot on a line. Then we would take out after him and if we caught him before he got back to his base, why we would bring him and put him in a jail. But then we had to guard him and if another man left his base and came over, we could touch him. But if he touched the guy in jail before we could get to him, then he would get out. But he watched that and if we caught him, we put him in jail. That was our job. The fellows that got the most men in jail or one of our best runners made a circle around the other man’s base, that broke him up and we won the game. Just like war. He just had to surrender, that’s all. OB: Then at night, we danced in the homes. Barn dances. EB: We would have parties in the night. Play the banjo, the violin or fiddle. We danced all night, thank God! Had a good time. BB: Did you know anybody that played the fiddle? EB: They are dead now. Knew a lot of men, but they have gone to heaven now. OB: My daddy played for the parties. My granddaddy played the violin and my daddy played the banjo. BB: Would it be every night? EB: No, we couldn’t take it every night. About two nights a week. BB: Would you all be drinking moonshine? EB: Not much, sometimes. Usually wine, grape wine. Sometimes we had the real stuff…moonshine. BB: Did your dad make moonshine? EB: No sir, he was a Christian gentleman. He didn’t even drink it. My father’s brother was a 12 �Congressman. There is his picture on the wall. Served two terms in the United States Congress. And my father was against liquor. BB: What was his name? EB: E. Spencer Blackburn. Honorable E. Spencer Blackburn. BB: What was the year that he was in Congress? EB: Well, I’ve forgotten little darling boy. I was just a boy. In 1906 and 1908 I expect (Edmond Spencer Blackburn was a Republican U.S. Congressman from 1901-03 and 1905-07). You better put a question mark on that honey, because I was just a little boy. But he would visit my father often. Had a big, high silk hat and fine clothes. BB: What kin was he to you? EB: He was my uncle, my father’s brother. End of side I BB: Have you hunted and fished a lot? EB: Yes, fished a lot. Yes, it wasn’t against the law then to take a net and go into the river and catch fish by the bushel. BB: What about legends and stuff? Old folk tales and myths. Do you remember any? EB: No, not many. People used to tell us ghost tales and that would scare us nearly to death. BB: Who would tell them to you? EB: Old people. But they are all dead and gone many years ago. They would come by and tell us ghost stories you know, and we were afraid to look out of the house after the sun went down. BB: Do you remember any? EB: No, I can’t remember them. One old man lived down here on the river and a man went missing and the people never could find him. They thought he went and jumped in the river at a hole where it wasn’t frozen over. But never could find him. But then in the spring when the ice went out, the ice flow went out, why this old man down here on the river found five bones. What the doctor said was they were five bones of a man and he took them home and put the bones in the loft. He said that every night the five bones would just beat the floor all night. I’ve heard him tell that story many times. He said there was a beat on the floor. But he still had so far as I know, when he died – still had that beating on the floor. 13 �BB: Do you believe that? EB: Don’t believe a word of it, no. But I do believe that he had the bones because I heard people talk about the man disappearing. The man’s name was “Lookabill.” Something happened to his mind. A nice man, but he disappeared and never was found. That’s as close as anything that would come to a ghost story. But that’s just to me a folktale. I know nothing about that, only what was told. BB: Do you remember any old sayings? EB: No, I’ve forgotten them all. We used to have many of them. And they were all so good that they ought to have been remembered. BB: You ought to have written them down. EB: Yes, by all means. BB: If there was anything that you could change back, what would you change that’s now gone? EB: Well, if there was anything that I could change back I would have gone into preaching when I was 14 years old. And I went into the First World War without ever being a Christian. God wanted me to be a preacher when I was 14 years old, but I wanted to drink liquor and I put off preaching until I was about 22 years old. I would change that. BB: Is there anything that you would change in the community? EB: No, I doubt it. Just let her roll, just like it did. BB: Is there anything else you want to tell me? EB: Bless you. I don’t know much more little lad. The Lord blesses you. I never thought about anybody coming to talk to me about things like this because there are so many men that can tell you so much more than I could tell you. But there is nobody in this country much older than I am. BB: They say you are the oldest around? EB: I don’t know any men that are older than I am. I know one lady down here. No, not in this vicinity, I don’t know of any man that’s older than me. BB: And this is your mother? OB: This is my wife and she’s 81 years old. 14 �BB: What’s her name? EB: Ollie Blackburn. OB: I was Ollie Clawson. EB: She was a Clawson. OB: I waited through the war to marry him. EB: We were supposed to get married anytime, but I went to the war and left her here you know. BB: Were you raised here in Todd too? OB: No, I was raised in Watauga County. BB: In Watauga County? OB: Yes, this is Ashe County. EB: Yes, here we are across the line about a hundred feet. When you came up that road you were in Watauga; when you turned in to our house, why you are in Ashe County. BB: So you all live in Ashe County? EB: Just across the line. We pay our taxes on the Ashe side. BB: What was your childhood like? Did your mother teach you how to crochet and all? OB: She taught me how to sew and I sewed and made all my children’s clothes. During the Depression we had some pretty well to do folks and they gave us second hand clothes and I made them over for my children. Some of them got the prize for being the best-dressed in school there. EB: Out of second handed clothes. BB: During the Depression they got the best-dressed? EB: Yes, I guess it was during the Depression. They went to school well-dressed by ma working over old clothes, redoing them. BB: How long have you two been married? 15 �EB: Going on 54 years. We had a 50th anniversary three years ago this June. So this June we will have been married 54 years. BB: Have they all been good years? EB: All have been wonderful. Thank God, I would like to live them all over. Been good years. Ma’s been a darling. BB: How many grandchildren do you have? EB: Fourteen. BB: I bet you have a big Christmas don’t you? EB: Yes. Fourteen. And two great-grandchildren. BB: Do they all usually get home for Christmas? EB: Yes, usually. BB: What’s the difference in Christmas when you were small and Christmas now? EB: Oh, so much difference. When I was small if we got two sticks of candy and an orange we were well fixed. BB: Do you remember any great presents that you once got during Christmas? EB: No. I got a toy truck; as far back as I can remember and thought that was the greatest thing that could be delivered to anybody. OB: Tell him about your pistol. EB: Yes, I used to have a little gun when I was six years old. Lots of folks won’t let boys have pistols and I had a gun. I think this is the same one if I can find it here. OB: I guess it’s gone. EB: I had one like this when I was just a boy and I’d hunt with it you know. I would shoot grouse and rabbits when I was six years old. BB: So it’s a real pistol? EB: Oh, it’s a real .22 pistol. Break it down. That’s a real gun. Dangerous, it would kill you. Single barrel, a Stevens. 16 �BB: Do you still hunt? EB: I still hunt. BB: Do you still hunt with this? EB: No. I carry an automatic shotgun. BB: What do you think about the tourists? EB: Well, I think that they have ruined the mountains, is what I think of them. We can’t go anywhere and get anywhere but they do bring in some money but we were living well before they came. That’s not belittling them; that’s just what I think about them. BB: So you think that Beech Mountain and Sugar Mountain… EB: Yes. I think its hurt the morale of the country. I do. And that’s just what I think. That’s my personal opinion. BB: Well, I agree with you. EB: Yes. I think its hurt the morale of the country. I do. And that’s just what I think. That’s my personal opinion. BB: Well, I agree with you. EB: Thank you dear. Bless you darling. Just about ruined us. BB: I hate to see the mountains torn down too. I think it’s real sad. EB: Thank you honey. BB: Is there anything that you want to tell me? Just anything that you would want somebody to know about you as a man? EB: No, I didn’t do well enough to want anybody to know anything about me darling. BB: I think you being a preacher… EB: I’ve done my best on that line. But we got many preachers. BB: Do you baptize? EB: I do. Baptize and marry folks. 17 �BB: You have a license to marry? EB: I do have a license to marry, yes. And to baptize and to establish churches. BB: What was your education? You got as far as… EB: Oh, I wouldn’t know. I just…it pushed me to get through the seventh grade I guess. We just had three months of school you know, when I went to school. Always commenced in September and would be out by Christmas. And we had to walk three miles. We have to walk three miles when I went to school most of the time. BB: So you got about as far as the seventh grade? EB: Yes, I guess it pushed me to go through the seventh grade. BB: Learn enough just to read and write? EB: I can read and write. And I can… OB: Figure (mathematics). BB: I would like to come down to your church sometime. EB: Well, you ought to come darling. You ought to come. You ought to bring some friends. I want you to go up by and look it over darling before you leave here this evening. Open the door, it will not be locked. Just open the door and go in and look around. What God has done. BB: How long has that church been there? EB: Well, this one has not been there that long…I guess 38 or 40 years. That right ma? About 38 years. BB: Is this your first church? EB: Yes, but the first church was burned down over there. BB: I know a good question. Do you remember the first time you preached? The very first time that you preached? EB: No. I don’t remember the first time I ever got up and took a text and preached from it. But for years before I ever went out into the ministry, before I was ordained I would hold funerals you know. So many people would send for Uncle Ed you know, to come and hold funerals. But I can’t remember the first time. 18 �BB: What were the funerals like? EB: Well, they haven’t changed much. They have gotten finer, but the same mode and the same lines. When I was growing up we didn’t know anything about undertakers in the mountains here. Just neighbors, dress people and made their caskets and put them in the ground. BB: When was the first time that you can remember that you preached? EB: I can’t remember. Can’t remember the first time that I ever was called to a funeral. Wish I could. I would like to try and recall the feeling, but I can’t remember to save my life. I’ve had hundreds of them. BB: It wasn’t a good feeling I guess. EB: Wasn’t so good. I was scared. Still am. BB: Are you still scared? EB: Still scared. Scared to death. BB: Do you preach from a text or do you just get up and talk? EB: I preach right out of a book. Never write down a note or take a note and just read by chapter – what I’m going to preach from and go to preaching. If there is one certain verse in it that I want to dwell on and talk about, I pick out such and such verse in such and such chapter and tell my people all I know about it. BB: Do you all have Sunday school? EB: We do have Sunday school every Sunday. One of the finest in the county. BB: What time does preaching start? EB: Eleven o’clock. Every second and fourth Sunday. BB: So you only have preaching the second and fourth Sunday? Why is that? EB: Well, because we found it’s the best. And because my people are not… OB: Well, he preaches in other places. EB: Yes, I’m gone a lot of the time and that gives me a chance to preach here twice a month and go somewhere else two times. 19 �BB: Oh, so you go other places? EB: I go to other places. BB: Where do you usually go? EB: Well, the last meeting I was in was at High Point. Evangelical Methodist in High Point. And next to that one, I go anywhere they call for me…anywhere from Ohio to Pennsylvania. BB: You’ve been up to Pennsylvania? EB: Yes sure, give two meetings in Pennsylvania and two meetings in the city of Baltimore. BB: Well, thanks a lot. EB: Honey, have I been any help to you? BB: I think you have. EB: Have you? Do you? God bless you. (Gives a prayer) “Father in heaven, here’s a lovely, pretty boy. I’d give a billion dollars, God, if I could be like him. But it’s gone from us God. And now Lord we pray that as long as he lives let him remember the two old people, the Blackburn’s on the hill. Came in to have an interview with them and we wasn’t wise enough to give him much of an interview. After he leaves we’ll think of many things that happened to us that might have been amusing to him. I pray you will take good care of this little boy God, and make his successful in the world. Help him to be a Christian gentleman. Because if he gains the whole world and loses his soul, what would he give for that pearl of great price, which is his soul. Take good care of the little boy. In Jesus’s name we pray. Amen and amen. Bless you darling. You’re lovely.” End of interview 20 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4615ce05bbb84565ef0b344f0a035eb4.jpg 817b249715bed6fffbc7216c9a3995e5 Omeka Image File The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files. Width 244 Height 293 Bit Depth 8 Channels 3 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7cdc319b184689f75ef7c4c69e5fbddc.jpg de048c4d6d65cd672c31b574af86b508 Omeka Image File The metadata element set that was included in the `files_images` table in previous versions of Omeka. These elements are common to all image files. Width 235 Height 278 Bit Depth 8 Channels 3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Blackburn, Edward (interviewee) Ballock, Bill (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:04, Reflects on Todd and Ashe County, 00:32, World War One Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edward Blackburn, March 2, 1973 Subject The topic of the resource Blackburn, Edward (1893-)--Interviews Todd (N.C.)--History--20th century Todd (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Clergy--North Carolina--Todd--Biography Railroads--North Carolina--Todd--History--20th century Lumber trade--North Carolina--Todd--History--20th century Description An account of the resource Edward Eugene Blackburn was born on August 29, 1893 to Alex (b. 1852 – d. June 1, 1926) and Rhoda Howell Blackburn (b. February 12, 1856 – d. December 6, 1934). He was married to Ollie Clawson Blackburn (b. July 29, 1893 – d. June 1985). He grew up in the Todd community of Ashe County and served in the U.S. Army during the First World War with the 318th Field Hospital of the 80th Division. He experienced combat in France, which is briefly mentioned in the interview. Many affectionately knew him as “Brother Ed” or “Uncle .” The Reverend Ed Blackburn and his wife took over the leadership of The Tabernacle, a non-­‐denominational Holiness church across the hill from his childhood home. This church later became the Blackburn Community Church, was originally started by his father around 1910. His uncle was U.S. Congressman Edmond Spencer Blackburn (b. September 22, 1868 – d. July 21, 1912) who served in 1901-03 and 1905-­07. During the interview Ed Blackburn talks about growing up in rural Ashe County. Topics include explaining the rules to a game called “dare base,” and his experience working at a grist meal and laying railroad track as a young man. He also discusses the railroad in Todd, timber stripping, religion, and family. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2-Mar-73 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 20 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Document Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 13:40:14 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Todd (N.C.) Ashe County childhood games Civil War folklore ministry railroad religion timber Todd Watauga County N.C. West Jefferson World War One https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/65294dd3a42086d804b328b5020c7683.pdf 8f3e93d509b1a8423ede8ffc3295b8e0 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 249 Interviewee: Early Earl Interviewer: Barbara Greenberg 22 August 1974 Transcriber: Marty Tschetter, October 2011 Background Early Earp was born on July 31, 1891 in the Bairds Creek Community of Watauga County, North Carolina and died on December 25, 1988. His parents were Lewis Calloway Earp (b. June 5, 1844 – d. November 11, 1919) and Rebecca Williams Earp (b. May 15, 1861 – d. March 27, 1937). They were farmers and raised a family of fourteen children. Many of Mr. Earl’s siblings had long lives. His parents were originally from Wilkes County and his maternal grandfather was killed in the Civil War. The interview took place at his house, the original property that his parent’s owned. TAPE INDEX Counter Index Topic 06 Introduction including when and where he grew up. Early wages. 146 Farm work, briefly mentions working in a Burke County sawmill, and the U.S. Army during World War I. 328 Mentions his living brothers Willie and Coy, and sister Nora. 429 His parents grew up in Wilkes County. His maternal grandfather was killed in the Civil War, and his father died in 1919 at age 74, his mother died in 1937. 546 Parents names were Lewis Callaway Earp and his mother was Rebecca Williams Earp. His father bulldozed the original family home place circa 1900. 643 Entire family worked on the farm, mentioned that only other work for females might be in someone’s house. Wages were typically fifty cents a week. 749 Talks about how crops were planted, and how the quantity was determined. References growing sugar cane for 1 �molasses, selling wheat for flour, canning vegetables, drying pumpkin, and helping neighbors hoe crops. 1052 Recalls a corn shucking held by a neighbor Mart Isaacs (b. October 1851 – d. March 1938). Describes the specifics that include shucking until 3am, food was cooked by the women and there was a large gathering. 1215 Explains how farmers used to plant by the moon. 1326 Making sauerkraut, selling it in Lenoir, Gastonia, and Charlotte. Emphasizes that it had to be made at the ‘right’ time. 1443 Growing up his family had plenty of food, even during the Depression. 1537 Breakfast typically included biscuits and parched their own coffee. Later they purchased a local brand called Pilot Knob. 1701 Price for coffee used to be five cents a pound, and sugar was three to five cents. References the Smithey Store opening up in Boone. Mr. Smithey was from Wilkesboro. 1812 Talks about the Depression, did not affect his family too much. His father positioned himself never to be in debt to others. References the Federal Farm Loan Act enacted under President Woodrow Wilson in 1917. Recalls a conversation that his father and neighbor Mr. Moody had about the program. 2102 Briefly talks about the 1940 flood in Watauga County and what he recalled about ending the Tweetsie Railroad service. 2115 Talks about cash crops, he started raising tobacco in 1931, bringing it to market in Abingdon, Virginia and Johnson City, Tennessee and also selling Cabbage. He sold beans in Mountain City, Tennessee. 2419 Did not get rich selling produce, did not own a lot of farm machinery. Mentions Frank Taylor in Valle Crucis told farm machinery, and then in 1944 he entered into the cattle business. 2 �2815 Talks briefly about the county agriculture agent and his opinion on his services. SIDE TWO 03 Continues with his feelings about the county agriculture agent. 210 Talks about the school he attended including the location. He only obtained the seventh grade. His teachers were Powell Harmon, Frank Wilson, and Marion Thomas. 346 He attended a school for only three to four months of the year. He estimated about forty students. 509 He reflected on his schooling and how education had changed in the 1970s. He felt that current students did not have a lot of direction. His teachers were very religious people and had students read a passage from the bible every morning. As a result he felt that that was a positive that he experienced in school. 654 The Baptist denomination was the most dominate. Also recalled a presence of the Methodist Church. He shared his personal disdain for the growth of the Catholic Church in western North Carolina. 830 Funerals were held at the home and all the arrangements were taken care of by family and neighbors. 1003 The Danner Cemetery was a local community plot. A lot of his family was buried there. It was named after Fred Danner, the first person buried. 1100 Briefly talked about local stores. Newt Mast had a big store in Cove Creek, and Will Mast had one in Valle Crucis. Remembers older residents playing checkers. 1217 Asked about what was happening in Boone during the 1910s-20s. He recalled county judge Greene, Rob Laney, and the Councill family. 3 �13:42 Talks about the first car that he saw in Boone, was owned by man from Lenoir. People were mesmerized. He bought his first car in 1924, the first resident in his local community. 1539 Talks about hauling people in his car, owning a Model-T Ford Roadster, there were no speedometers on cars at that time. 1647 Community leaders during this time were his father, Lindsey Trivett, and Lane Farmer. He felt they were respected because they were older. 1805 Reflects how times have changed. He felt that in the past, people cared more for their neighbors well-being, especially when sick. 2212 There was not a lot of formal entertainment. He recalled corn shucking’s, log rolling’s, and talking as fellowship. Movie theatres did not exist when he was growing up and were subsequently not important at this time in his life. 2315 Expressed how growing up people helped each other out. If his family had excess produce, they would share it with neighbors without expecting payment in return. 2454 Asked about superstitions, he remembers people talking about witches, but he did not believe in them. He did share a story about his brother attending a funeral circa 1900. His brother had planned to meet up with a friend afterward. They both road horses and it was dark. They also both wore white shirts, which they faintly could see each other, which ‘spooked’ both men. 2756 Talked about his mother spinning yarn and wool to make socks and their clothes for the family. His family did not have excessive clothes, but enough to last. He recalled being a mid-teenager when he bought his first pair of clothes from a store. 4 �BG: Barbara Greenberg EE: Early Earp 0:06 BG: This is a recording of Mr. "Early" Earp done by Barbara Greenberg at his home on Bairds Creek Road. Today's date is August 22nd, 1974. BG: Well Mr. Earp -- do you want to start off by telling me a little bit about yourself -- where you were born and when you were born? EE: Well, I was born in 1891. I grew up right up in the field there, no houses matter fact. (Rooster in background). BG: Is the house still standing? EE: No, its been torn down for seventy-five years. So I was raised up top there. I live on the place I was born on (laughs)....and own the land I was born on... BG: Great. EE: There are not too many men that can say that. BG: Right. EE: So we had a hard time coming up. When I got big enough to work, we worked for twentyfive cents a day. And it was....I guess for about ten years before I ever got more than twentyfives cents a day. Because I started when I was small. We finally got up to where we could make a man's wage and it was fifty cents a day and sometimes it was seventy-five (cents). 1:46 BG: What would you do, what kind of work? EE: Farm work, farm work. Oh no, there was no work like any public works in this country at that time. BG: Wow. EE: You see, there was for years and years -- I can't even tell you how many years it was before anything...and sawmilling was about the next industry that we had in this country. When I was 16 years old I went to...down in Burke County to (inaudible) Sawmill, a (inaudible) and worked for him and got a dollar a day (laughs)…and board. And so, and then in 1917, they took me in 5 �the army. I spent two years in the army and then came back and have been a farmer practically ever since. BG: Okay, tell me...you said that you were born right now the road here, did your parents own that land? EE: Ma’am? BG: Did your parents own the land that you... EE: Yes ma’am. BG: How many acres did they have? EE: Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you lady...I guess...well, they owned way up above where I do now. I guess it was one hundred and twenty-five or fifty acres in all. BG: And how many acres do you own today? EE: fifty-six. 3:28 BG: Did you have any brothers and sisters? EE: Oh yes, I have one sister living and two brothers. Willie Earp is the oldest...he is seventyone. No wait a minute...eighty-one. And then Coy, he is about seventy-five. And Nora is eightyone. That's my brothers and sister. They live…Nora lives about two-three miles over here. And Willie and Coy live just up the road here -- the first two houses above here. BG: That's great that y'all still all live so close together. 4:20 EE: Oh yeah. BG: That's nice. EE: So, we were born right around here and we stayed pretty well put together ever since (chuckles). 4:29 BG: Did your parents…were they born in this area? 6 �EE: No, my father and mother both were born in Wilkes County. I can't tell you exactly where…but they were raised both up to (inaudible). And then mother she came with her mother to Ashe County and stayed over there a year, then moved here to this county. And that's been a long time ago (both laugh). My grandfather on my mother's side got killed in the Civil War. And then my father, he lived until he was 74 years old and nine months. I believe he died in 1919. 5:46 BG: What was their names? EE: Well, my father was Lewis Callaway Earp (b. June 5, 1844 – d. November 11, 1919) and my mother was Rebecca Williams Earp (b. May 15, 1861 – d. March 27, 1937) (chuckles). And she's been dead for thirty-eight years. Of course we (inaudible) on the farm (inaudible) and well, I went 'up north' and worked in Cleveland for a little while, but practically I’ve been right here in close. My daddy bulldozed it, the place, right up here, where my brother lives and we moved up there in 1909. And we've been right here ever since. 6:43 BG: Did your brothers and sisters, did you all share doing the work on the farm? Did your sisters do one thing or did you all work together? EE: We worked together. There was a big crowd of us (laughs) and it took us all to make a living. You take (inaudible). I was young, a lot younger than I am now (both laugh). There wasn't any work at all for anybody unless it just…work for a woman, a girl could get a job maybe staying with someone for fifty cents a week. And that was about the wages, about fifty cents a week. But we always worked and managed together. 7:36 BG: How did you determine how much of each crop you should plant each year? EE: Each crop? BG: How much did you, you know, how did you decide how much to plant each year? 7:49 EE: (Chuckles)...my father, always thought that he didn’t have around fifteen acres in corn, than he wouldn’t have corn (inaudible). Now of course back in his day, they figured it out...twenty or 7 �something like twenty or twenty-five bushels to the acre...is as much as they could produce. Well now, you can go way up to a hundred and fifty -- two hundred. That’s a lot different between now and then. And we always had a cane patch to raise molasses and that was our major sweetener. There was no such a thing as buying sugar in a store at that time. We had always sold our wheat and then sold our flour. We raised it in the garden to get things...vegetables. We had 'canning'. There was not any canning back at that time (referring to canned products bought at stores). We had to dry most of our stuff that we preserved for food. I don't expect that you've ever heard of drying pumpkin? (Laughs). BG: Drying pumpkin? No, I.... EE: We used to dry pumpkin, and that was...we would hang it up on poles over the fireplace and dry it. And then beans, dried beans, and fruit, and peaches. Stuff like that. We didn't have any canning, couldn't can. Lord I was...I don't know...we didn't have any canning and the thing about it...for a long time. I can't tell you...my memory is too short (chuckles). So that is just about the way we lived. We worked together, farmers worked together then. You know what I mean? We would help our neighbors hoe their crop and then they would help us to hoe ours. We would work them out, and then we would do the same thing. We would have logrolling, corn shucking... 10:42 BG: Can you remember any particular log rolling or corn shucking that you could tell us about…something happening or something like that? 10:52 EE: Well, I can remember corn shucking. There was an old fellow Isaacs, uncle (James) Mart Isaacs (b. October 1851 – d. March 1938). Right up here on this hill, up on top of the mountain. He had a big field of corn and invited all of his neighbors around to help him shuck corn on a certain day. Well, we shucked corn until dinner then we went back and shucked until night and they all agreed that they would shuck until they were done if they had supper. And they sent to the house...the women folk fixed supper and carried it up on the mountain and shucked until we got done at three o'clock the next morning (laughs). And he had six hundred bushels of corn. 11:50 BG: Oh. Wow. 8 �EE: That's about the best of them that I can remember (both laugh). But we (inaudible) corn shucking and log rolling and things like that anymore. That doesn't happen much any more. 12:15 BG: Did your family believe in planting by the moon? EE: A lot. Yes, they did. They wouldn't plant corn on the new moon at all. They thought that it would grow too tall and that there would be no ear on it? And it don't. You plant a crop of corn in particular on the new of the moon and the ear will look about 'so long' (uses hands to show size) sticks right up like that. And you plant it at the right time and the ear will be that long (uses hands again to show size). 12:59 And in fact I believe in...I believe in signs...which, probably you don't. BG: I do, I do. EE: (Laughs). BG: I do, very much so. EE: Well I do. The Bible speaks of signs....and says you will 'watch the moon' and 'watch the stars' or so and so. Well, we both do it. BG: I think so. 13:26 EE: You take for making kraut (sauerkraut). If you make kraut when the signs are wrong your kraut will be slimier or kind of (inaudible) not good. But if you make it at the right time, it’s good. BG: When is the right time for making kraut? I'm getting ready to make some and I don't want to do it on the wrong day (both laugh). EE: Well, I'm about to tell you...when it’s a good time to make it. I used to know. I've told a hundred thousand women when to make kraut. I used to truck it and down the country, down in Lenoir, and Gastonia, and Charlotte, and down in that way. And women folks would always know…would want to know what time was a good time to make kraut. And I had to tell them (laughs). So that's just about the story now...(laughs). 14:43 9 �BG: Well, now tell me...were there any years when your family didn't grow enough food to keep you all winter? EE: Not that I remember of. There was a big crowd of us as I told you. We had lots of help...and we put out enough that we (inaudible) a few times. We would run out of corn in the summertime and then just buy it by the bushel if you could find it. Very few times. 15:37 Back when I was just a young boy (inaudible), we didn't have biscuits every morning for breakfast. There was just no flour to be bought in the bag at all. You had to take it to the mill where they grind to make flour. So it was harder to get flour than most anything. And coffee...buy green coffee and parch it...on your fire…fireplace. BG: Did that coffee taste as good? EE: I believe it was better (laughs). If you got a good parch...we just used to call it parching coffee. If you got a good java done it made a delicious coffee. And then...later on in the years we got to buying coffee from the stores. I forget the name of the brand of coffee...Pilot Knob was one. 17:01 BG: Pilot Knob? EE: Oh yes, you've seen that I guess.... BG: I think so, I think so.... EE: Well that had come in three pound buckets...and it was good...and others. But coffee used to be five cents a pound. And sugar was three to five cents (laughs). And it doesn't sound possible does it? BG: Sound great (both laugh). Sounds great. EE: This Smithey...that used to be over...well, the Smithey Store its in Boone today. There was an old man from Wilkesboro (who) came up here and built a store in Boone and his name was Will Smithey. And he sold fatback meat for three cents a pound, and coffee for three cents, and sugar for three cents. But now its...past (laughs). BG: It has, for sure. 18:12 10 �BG: When the Depression hit did that have much of an affect on your family? EE: How's that? BG: When the Depression came in 1929, did that have much of an effect on your family? EE: Well, not too much. We...we tried the farm to make enough...it didn't hurt us. There was no work to do and we got along just about as good as usual. It didn't affect us or me individually much more than any other time. My daddy would never go in debt, above what he thought he could come out at. When he made a debt he promised when to pay it and he wanted to pay it when that time came. And he always made plans to do that, so he wasn't in debt when the Depression came. In 1917, Woodrow Wilson put up the share of Federal Land Bank business. He is the one that organized federal land. A neighbor up here Mr. Moody...he was talking to my daddy one day about how great that federal land bank was and would be for the farmer. And my daddy, he told him that he didn't believe in it. And Mr. Moody said that was one of the greatest things that (inaudible). He said (his father), “Mr. Moody -- there will be lots of men that will lose their home right over that one thing.” Well, in the Depression it came true. Now my daddy he wouldn't give a mortgage on his place to the Federal Land Bank or nobody else. So when it came it didn’t affect him…we just…. BG: Kept on... EE: Kept it going. And today, I don't believe in putting yourself under a bigger obligation than you can ask. BG: That's right, that's right. You can get in trouble. 21:02 BG: Tell me, what about in 1940 when the big flood came. Did it flood this area very bad? EE: No. The biggest hurt in this county, we had a little railroad coming from Johnson City to Boone. When that ‘40 flood came it washed the railroad tracks out from Linville to Boone. They had to…I think the train itself was on the other end of the mine…at Johnson City. But the flood, it didn’t come in…so they took the track up and hauled it to Johnson City or somewhere. But individually it didn’t hurt this county too bad, only the railroad. And it’s known as “Tweetsie” now (laughs). BG: Right, right. 11 �22:15 BG: Did you family ever have any cash crops? EE: Cash crops? Well, in 1931 I began to raise tobacco. You could sell tobacco for three and four cents a pound. (Laughs). We hauled it to Abingdon, Virginia and sold it for three and four cents. Of course that’s not much of a ‘cash crop’ (laughs). At that time of course tobacco (inaudible). Last year (1973) it sold for better than a dollar a pound. BG: Did most of the farmers that did raise ‘cash crops’ would they sell to large businessmen or to small businessmen? EE: There were not many ‘cash crops’ that I can recall. Now tobacco and cabbage were the main money crops. We had to haul our cabbage down south to Salem. And tobacco we had to haul to Abingdon (Virginia) or to Johnson City, Tennessee. Because there was no other market. Now beans, we raised a lot of beans for a good part of the year in this county. We sold them in Mountain City, Tennessee. 24:19 BG: Was there any politics involved with who you sold your crops to, or what kind of price that you got for your crop? EE: Politics involved? Not that I knew of. We sold to just some company that was put up at Mountain City at these tobacco markets and I don’t reckon there was any politics. We didn’t get rich out of it anyway (both laugh). I raised one crop of tobacco and took it to Abingdon and sold it and I didn’t have quite enough to pay for (inaudible) bill (laughs). We didn’t get rich. BG: Yes, I understand that. What about farm machinery? EE: Farm machinery? Well, now (inaudible) in my shed I’ve never owned any…farm equipment…very little. I’m not a big farmer. I just tried raise enough to carry me over from one year to the next (chuckles). If I had to have any machinery I would just hire it from someone. BG: Now when all the modern farm machinery started coming out, did this have much of an affect on the farmer? EE: Oh no (emphatically). BG: It didn’t? EE: Very little. For years and years…in 1915 or ’16, they gradually picked up this and that and the other in farm equipment. Now I believe that the corn planter was about the first thing that I remember. Then this fellow (inaudible) [Krueger??] with a fellow Taylor. 12 �Do you know Frank Taylor? Over in Valle Crucis. His daddy sold turning plows and corn planters and stuff like than and finally got to selling mowing machines…driven by horses. Then he went out of business. And they kept getting a little bigger and a little bigger, and a little bigger. And then in 1944 I got into the (inaudible) cattle business. And I raised (inaudible) cattle business for…I guess ten or fifteen years. BG: Who would you sell your cattle to? EE: Just to whoever would (inaudible) (laughs). I took them ….I sold them up at Bristol and sell them at (inaudible) market and then I would take them to Statesville, North Carolina and sell them. BG: How often would you take them there? EE: Truck them. Haul them in a truck and then we…sold them off individually. Somebody would come along and want to buy something…a male or a nice heifer, and just the two of us would make a deal. 28:55 BG: Were there any government agencies that helped the farmer at that time? EE: Well, not that I know of. The county agent came into this county about…1930 or along about there. But I never thought that he requested too much of the county or any body else (both laugh). BG: Well, I didn’t say that. EE: What? BG: Well, I didn’t say that. EE: Well (emphatically), anything he tried to get people to do never did help us any. I think a county agent works at the ‘wrong end of the line’. A county agent lady, is to…for instance say you’re a man now and you own a little farm out here…. 30:10 END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE; BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE BG: …and the big farmer doesn’t give the little farmer a chance. 13 �EE: Well, of course…if the county agent would work with the little farmer and tell him plans…work related…he would improve farms all over the country…. BG: Would that cause prices to come down because there would be more produce? And than prices would come down…is that right? EE: No, I wouldn’t think so. It would help us all. We would have more of bigger things and that would open up better markets, bigger markets all over the country. If we had the cooperation of the county agent and so on….I think that it would be beneficial to everybody. 1:17 Now when I was in the (inaudible) business we had several folks in this county that were raising cattle. Well, the county agent worked with the ‘big man’ and he wouldn’t try to help the ‘little man’ at all. That was discouraging to us. So that’s…the better your products and the more of the ‘right’ kind of products that you got to sell will bring people in that would never see you otherwise. BG: Yes, yes. EE: Wouldn’t you think so? 2:10 BG: Yes. Now tell me a little bit about your schooling. Was there a school around here? EE: Yes, there used to be a schoolhouse up here at the forks in the road…where you turn down this way (gestures with hands). Where you turn down there used to be a schoolhouse just above the road after the forks in the road. One teacher schoolroom. I started school in that building. I forget of my teacher’s name at that time. It was a woman but I can’t tell you her name. Eventually we built another schoolhouse down this way (points with arm) from that one. I went to two schoolteachers…from the name of Powell Harmon and Frank Wilson. Oh I had three, and Marion Thomas. I never got any farther up than the seventh grade. But the seventh grade was not as far as teachers got at that time (both laugh). 3:46 The first school I went to was three months long. Well, we had three months a year of school for….I don’t know how many years. The last school I went to was four months. We had to study like everything to make it (laughs). BG: How many students in their schoolhouse? 14 �EE: How many rooms? BG: How many students? EE: Students? Well, I declare I couldn’t hardly say. But I guess it was thirty-five to forty with all the children in the community there…and just one teacher now had to do it. He had to start at the beginning of the day at 8 o’clock and work till four or five to get home from school (chuckles). BG: Tell me, do you think that the school system was better then with all the small community schools or do you think its better now with the one great big school that busses children in from all over the county? 5:09 EE: Well that’s a hard question (laughs). In some way I think the old way was best. For the teacher taught the young the ‘right way’. Now they just about turn the students loose and let them learn themselves how. We got teachers that ought to be ‘digging roots’ for a living (both laugh). Now, my teachers that I had…the biggest part of them were religious teachers. One teacher was a preacher and he taught school (rooster in background) throughout the year and he did teach us ‘right’. Well, the other two were religious men but they were not preachers. But they taught us and they had prayer in the schoolroom every day, every morning. One of the students had to read a verse or two in the scripture and then they would pray themselves (rooster in background). So I would say that I appreciated the ‘old way’ better (laughs) than what we got now. 6:54 BG: What church was the most dominate around here at that time? EE: Church? Baptist. BG: Baptist. EE: Well, we had the Methodist Church over at Valle Crucis and (inaudible). But the Baptist was the leading church. I don’t know if you want this, but in World War II, when Kennedy (quickly corrects self) Franklin D. Roosevelt was President of the United States, the Catholic Church – now you may be a Catholic? (to the interviewer and laughs). But the Catholic Church…the closest was about forty to fifty miles in Spruce Pine over here. And when he went out of the presidency there was a Catholic Church in Lenoir and Johnson City and Boone and…I mean in Blowing Rock and Lenoir and all around here. Of course they were small, but they came in and now they are all over the nation. I am not trying to fight any denomination but I think that we 15 �could have gotten along just as fine without them (both laugh). 8:30 BG: What were funerals like and weddings? Were they held at the church? EE: I didn’t understand you. BG: Were funerals and weddings held at the church? EE: Funerals? Well, sometimes. There was a long time that they were not. But weddings…it was just the right thing to have a wedding in the church. But now back (to funerals)…there was a long time that for a funeral they just sent out and got some preacher who would come and preach the funeral and the neighbors took care of everything. Of course I am not fighting the funeral home, they are nice but it took a lot of the love out of the people. Don’t you think? BG: I think so, I think so. People used to be buried wherever they owned land, is that correct? They didn’t have big graveyards like they do today. 10:03 EE: Well, I wouldn’t think that they had (graveyards) just on their land. But a lot of them, you are right. There has always been – ever since I can remember – a cemetery right up here on the hill. It goes with the Danner Graveyard and there was a family of Danners’ that lived right across the hill over there. Old uncle Fred Danner was the first ever buried up there and it started from that name and it goes with the Danner Graveyard. Some of my people are buried up there. Well just about all my people that are dead are buried up there. 11:00 BG: You started to tell me before we started that there were only two stores in this county. You want to tell us about those and what when on at the stores. Did people gather there and sit around and play banjos? Tell us what it was like? EE: (Laughs) Well, I couldn’t tell you much about that now lady. That’s all I knew about the stores. Some of the men would gather in to play checkers but that’s about all I could tell you (laughs). Now Newt Mast ran a big store on Cove Creek and Uncle Will Mast over here at Valle Crucis, but ah… 16 �BG: Were those two Mast related? EE: I’d say distantly related. I couldn’t tell you just exactly how much, and I wouldn’t try. 12:17 BG: What was happening in Boone at that time? EE: What was happening in Boone? Nothing. (Both laugh). BG: What was there? EE: In Boone? BG: As far back as you can remember. EE: There was a family in the name of Harding, and some of them (inaudible) over there. The Judge Greene, he was the county judge and he lived over there back when I was small. Rob Laney and the Councills’. There is one Councill over there now – Jim Council. But the rest of them I reckon have passed on. Now that was just about Boone (laughs). 13:42 I can remember when mud was that deep (gestures with arm) in the wintertime in Boone. And I can remember the first car that ever came to Boone. And now you can’t get a parking place anywhere (both laugh). Fred (inaudible) from Lenoir called up here and told him that he was coming through Boone that day with a car. And I happened to be over there. It wasn’t the first car that I had ever seen. I had seen one just before that. BG: What kind of reaction did the people have towards this car? EE: Just about like a circus would now (both laugh). It was a new thing (emphatically). Of course we had heard about them, but seeing is believing you know. It was right smart scenery so people had never seen one. BG: Did it have much of an affect; did it bring about a lot of changes when people started getting into buying cars? Did a lot of changes take place then? EE: Well, not too much. I was the first to ever buy a car on this creek here (laughs). BG: Oh yeah? EE: I bought my first car on August 10th, 1924. I just bought it for my own use and then others 17 �began buy them, but it didn’t have too much of an effect on them. Everybody tried to be neighbors and so on. 15:39 [Sounds as though the tape cut-off and starts again in the middle of a new conversation. Where the conversation picks-up is out of context] EE: And I’ve hauled people from Winston-Salem to all over the country; never charged a nickel yet (chuckles). BG: What was the price of gasoline in 1924 when you first bought your car? EE: Lady, I couldn’t tell you (laughs). It wasn’t what it is today. I believe it was around twenty cents. Now I wouldn’t tell it for certain. But it strikes me that it was around twenty cents. I paid four hundred and ten dollars for my first car. (Rooster in background). BG: What kind of car was it? EE: Model-T Ford. Ford Roadster. BG: What kind of gas mileage did you get? EE: I couldn’t tell you that (laughs). There was no speedometer on the car so we couldn’t… (both laugh). BG: Oh, I see. 16:47 BG: Who were some of the community leaders around this area? EE: Well, I couldn’t hardly say (long pause while he thinks about question). I guess some people might say my father was one (chuckles) and the “Smoke on a Trivett” over here, Lindsey Trivett and Lance Farmer. BG: Why were they considered to be the leaders? EE: Well, they were older. And people looked (up to) and listened to older people and (inaudible) you have to understand. I guess that would be the biggest thing, and there was a lot of religion then. And if that wasn’t it, I couldn’t tell you. BG: Just respect. 18 �EE: Yes. 18:05 BG: Tell me, what are some of the changes you’ve seen take place in people then compared to now? EE: Lady I could not even start to tell you (both laugh). Back then, when I was a kid now, if people did get sick – we didn’t have any hospitals. If you got sick, people would come in and help in every way they could. Cooperation was the best thing then. Well now, if you get sick they take you to the hospital and your neighbor doesn’t know anything about it. I’m like the old man; I like the old way best (laughs). You know we have a neighbor up here...she went to the hospital on Sunday…and she stays by herself. I happen to be in Boone on Monday, I believe it was Monday or Tuesday – one. And somebody told me that she was in the hospital. Now I wouldn’t have known (inaudible) unless I happened to run into him. Well, back when I was a kid, you get sick and people would let you know it and talk about through other people and it went by the word of mouth faster than it does now on the radio (both laugh). BG: Why do you think people were so much closer then than they are now? EE: Well, that’s another hard one (laughs). Let’s not answer that one (laughs). BG: All right, all right. It’s really kind of strange to me, I can’t really understand. Because it seems that people your age, that lived in your lifetime…they are so much warmer and deeper and they can ‘feel’ whereas people now…they don’t care… EE: Don’t care is right (sternly). They don’t care for one another anymore. BG: It’s not good I don’t think…not at all. EE: I don’t think that it’s the right thing to do, but we were living in that (inaudible). You get sick now and it’s just…let them die and (inaudible) they don’t care and they know it. A couple of years ago my wife got sick and I had her in the hospital and there were very few people that found it out when she came home. So it’s just a change, a big change…that’s all I can say. 22:12 BG: What did you use to do for entertainment? EE: Well, there wasn’t too much entertainment back then…only to get together and have as I 19 �said a while ago…corn shucking and log rolling and the younger folks would meet up at homes, just to talk and pass…fellowship I say just as much as anything. Anymore and you have different entertainment all together. A lot of people have to go to the theater to these shows…well, I wasn’t raised to do that (child in background). 23:15 BG: Was there very much of a barter system, trade system when you were a boy? Did people trade their excess to their neighbor for whatever they had? EE: No, not too much. If your neighbor needed anything and there was more giving than there was selling. We tried to work to one another’s advantage. For instance let’s just say that we had too much vegetables say, we would divide it with our neighbor and never charge anything for it. Just give it. But now it’s entirely different. Just for instance, I have a few beans and a neighbor that lives on (inaudible) came over here the other day and wanted to buy them. Well, I couldn’t sell them to him because I promised them to him a year ago. Instead I gave to him…he offered me $5 for a bushel for them…the green beans. When I was a youngin, we gave them to somebody if needed. You see that’s the tilt of change…completely turned over. The ‘right’ thing. BG: Yes, seems to be. 24:54 BG: Did people believe in witchcraft and superstitions very much? Folktales? EE: Well, we’ve always talked of witches. But never did believe in them (laughs) and so I couldn’t tell you. BG: Do you remember any of the tales that the people used to pass down? EE: Well, I don’t think I could. I never did believe in ghost stories (laughs). I’ve heard people tell ghost stories but I always doubted them. BG: Never did scare you? EE: No. Way back…it’s been about seventy-five years ago (Circa 1900), this fellow died up here, was buried up here at the graveyard, the cemetery. My brother was out that night and he had on a white shirt…he had been to the funeral. And then another fellow…he had on a white shirt. I guess both of them had been to that funeral. They were coming to meet one another. They used to say that there were ‘things to be seen’ up here at this spring just up the road from here. 20 �Each one seen the other one coming and they stopped, they didn’t know what in the world to think. My brother, he never seen anything that he didn’t investigate. He stopped and he said he made up his mind and said he would find out ‘what’ it is. He got right up to that fellow and that fellow said to him, “Tony (or Toby) is that you?” (Both laugh). Well, that is the only thing that got (inaudible). So, that’s just one of those things (both chuckle). 27:43 BG: Was your family involved in any type of crafts? EE: No, not that I know of. 27:56 BG: Did you know to make your clothes? EE: Oh yes. She would spin her yarn…her wool and knit her own socks…and weave her own clothes…all that she could weave. And make her own clothes. She had a loom setup in the living room. She would run that old loom all day long, weaving this and that, and the other you know. That was the only way to get any ‘new’ clothes, you had to make it. Entirely different the way it is now. BG: Did you have a lot of clothes or did you have just one or two pair of pants? Did they last a long time? EE: Well, we made them last (laughs). No, we didn’t have too many clothes. We just made out the best way that we could. I was...I’d say sixteen or eighteen or seventeen years old when I bought my first clothes out of a store. I’d work and had five dollars, that’s what I remembered that I had… 30:07 Tape Ends 21 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/bb6f971b68648ed498fbec173e7716fa.mp3 179799a3d9e970c3a7d50c991e489d8a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Earp, Early (interviewee) Greenberg, Barbara (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:01, Corn shucking Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Early Earp, date unknown Subject The topic of the resource Earp, Early (1891-1988)--Interviews Vilas (N.C.)--History--20th century Vilas (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Agriculture--North Carolina--Vilas--History--20th century Farmers--North Carolina--Vilas--Biography Description An account of the resource Early E. Earp was born on July 31, 1881 in the Vilas community and Bairds Creek community of Watauga County to Lewis Calloway Earp (b. June 5, 1844 – d. November 11, 1919) and Rebecca Williams Earp (b. May 16, 1861 – d. March 27, 1937). They were farmers and raised a family of 14 children. Many of siblings lived long lives. He parents were originally from Wilkes County and his maternal grandfather was killed in the Civil War. He passed away on December 25, 1988 at the age of 97. During the interview he talked about early wages, farm work, how crops were planted and how the quantity was determined. He discusses growing sugarcane for molasses, selling wheat for flour, canning vegetables, drying pumpkins, and planting by the signs. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource unknown Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 21 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 13:55:07 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Watauga County (N.C.) Bairds Creek car cattle Civil War Danner Cemetery farming funerals planting by signs religion Vilas Watauga County N.C. World War One https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/203f74f0ea6d41a8eab7e527503d6fc2.mp3 1c998210a0b5526f765401646bc1cdb0 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1714511bac8d266cb5e9c627f4c9c225.pdf f5770297cdfcbdadea8d6d5aad348621 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 48 Interviewee: Ralph Hayes Interviewer: Bill Brinkley 1973, March 28 BB: Bill Brinkley RH: Ralph Hayes BB: This is an interview with Mr. Ralph Hayes for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley in Boone, NC on March 28, 1973. Mr. Hayes, I understand that you’re co-director of the wagon train that comes up through here. Could you tell us how that got started? RH: A Mr. Moore, I understand, from Wilkes County, probably about 12 years ago got the idea. He got a few people interested and it got under way. The first year was the smallest train they had, maybe 25 wagons. He just got some people from Yadkin County, Wilkes County, and a few from Watauga County to do this thing, and that year they roughed it. They roughed it just like you would in the old days; they did their cooking, hauled their own feed in the wagons and slept in the wagons and the outside, what you have, like they would have done in the Daniel Boone days. And of course they all dressed in their authentic clothing of that day, which made a very nice train. And since then it has just continued to grow year after year, and its grown to the point to where they’re having to cut it off to keep from getting more people than they can handle. BB: Did you say they were dressed in the authentic clothes of the olden days? Long dresses? RH: Right. A majority of people that are connected with the train still dress that way. BB: How were the men dressed? RH: They would dress in coonskin caps, leather jackets, and boots; near about what they wore in those days. BB: Where does the wagon train start? RH: It originates in Wilkesboro. They assemble at the fairgrounds in North Wilkesboro and on one day, and then they have a parade through both towns – North Wilkesboro and Wilkesboro. The next morning they leave on their journey up the old Daniel Boone Trail, coming up the Yadkin River and the first stop is Ferguson. 1 �They spend the first night at Ferguson, and there the Ferguson Community Club prepares the meal for them, and of course the public is invite. They have for their entertainment about the same thing at all four stops: string music, string bands, and square dancing. People that participate in the square dances, most of them, especially the ladies – they’ll have the long dresses and bonnets on. BB: Did you say the first stop was in Ferguson? RH: Right. BB: What were the others? RH: Then their next stop is Darby, its in Wilkes County. They have about the same thing in Darby as they would have in Ferguson: entertainment of course. The Darby Community Club feeds the Wagon Trail and also visitors, and you have about the same thing there. Then when they leave Darby, their next stop is Triplett and so our club, the Community Club of Triplett, we always have a country ham supper and it draws a lot of people. I believe last year we fried 850 pounds of ham, about 60 gallons of green beans, 300 pounds of coleslaw, 250 pounds of sliced tomatoes, 500 pounds of potato salad, 225 pounds of pound cake. We have a pretty good feed around there. BB: Did you say the public is invited? RH: Right. BB: Just anybody can come? RH: Anybody can come that wants to. The price of the plate last year, I don’t expect it to increase this year, was $2 and nobody leaves hungry. We just don’t let anybody leave hungry. BB: Do the string music groups travel with the train or does each community sponsor that? RH: No, I wouldn’t say they travel with the train, but there will be about two or three different bands will show up at each one of these places. BB: Could you give us an idea of the amount of money that you put into these meals? RH: Yes, our grocery bill will run about $1,600 and of course, we make a little profit, but not a big amount, because we want people to have as much as they want to eat. We rather people would come to our community and we feed them good, and they can leave and have something nice to say about us than to have their money. 2 �BB: How do you go about acquiring all this food for preparation? RH: We get together, two or three of us, probably me and Stewart Simmons you might say and we set down and make up our menu of what we’re going to feed this year and try to estimate about how many people that we will have, which is sometimes hard to do. We have run out of food. He’s in the grocery business there in the community, and he buys all this stuff for us, wholesale, and thanks to him at no extra charge. He just charges us what it costs him. We also buy the hams from him, and old good-natured Stewart, he gives us a little cut on the hams and so it’s a community project and the community’s cooperation is 100%. We’ll sometimes have more workers than we can use, but they’re standing in the wings just waiting for somebody to holler. It’s just a community effort, and that’s why its been so successful for us. BB: Everybody in the community comes in and does all the cooking? RH: Yes. BB: Could you give us an idea of how many you fed last year? RH: We fed 1,120 plates, and of course I don’t remember just how much the stands did. We have a stand that sells country ham sandwiches, hot dogs, and hamburgers. Then we have two drink trucks that come to serve the drinks for the people, and also cotton candy. We get 25% of their gross take. BB: Do you have the same think year after year, or do you vary any? RH: No, we vary from year to year in the vegetables. Now, I don’t know what we’ll try to feed this year, but last year it was green beans, potato salad, coleslaw, sliced tomato, and cream corn. So we try to give the people a choice. If they don’t want a choice, we give them some of all of it. BB: Is the square dance like the old-time square dances? RH: Oh yes, we always have somebody to call the dances. BB: Do you ever have any wagons breakdown? RH: Right. There will be from the trip from North Wilkesboro to Boone, there will be two or three wagons that will break an axle or lose a wheel, or something will happen. But there are always some good blacksmiths in the train. So three or four will jump in and help the guy, and get him right back on the road in a few minutes. 3 �BB: The blacksmiths travel in the train? RH: There’ll be three or our blacksmiths riding that train, and horses will lose shoes and when they come into, say Triplett, you can look around and see people all over the parking area putting new shoes on the horses where they had thrown the shoe on the rocks and gravel. BB: How far do people come for this? RH: We’ve had them on the trail from Hawaii. They come from Ohio. Well, practically every state. I believe that there were 25 states represented in the wagon train last year. BB: Is there a place like maybe “Rent-a-Wagon?” RH: Yes, there are some people around North Wilkesboro, or Ferguson that will rent a wagon. They will do a taxi service I understand. There’s a Scout troop from Cleveland, Ohio that’s been on the train for the last two years and two or three wagons, they have hired these wagons from around North Wilkesboro, just a taxi service you might say. BB: Do you have any idea of what the price for one of these wagons might be? RH: No, I sure don’t. I don’t think I’ve ever heard what the price would be. It wouldn’t be excessive, I’m sure. BB: When you get to Boone, this is where you break up? Is that correct? RH: Right. When they leave Triplett, usually at 8 o’clock in the morning, they get into Boone at 2 o’clock in the afternoon. So they have the same thing here. Now, I believe it’s the fire departments in the county that have catered food for the last several years. I believe it was the Deep Gap Fire Department last year. They spend the night. They get into Boone usually on Friday night or Friday afternoon. They spend Friday night with about the same thing that you would find at the other ones as far as entertainment is concerned. Most of the people that you will have out at night will be looking at the livestock, the wagons, and what you have, and it’s quite a show. It’s a real show for people that have never seen something like that, and then, to end the wagon train, and then they have a parade through Boone. Then after the parade, they break up and head for the different parts of the country. BB: Like a big celebration at the end of it? RH: Right. 4 �BB: How long does this last, about how many days? RH: Leaves Wilkesboro, North Wilkesboro, comes to Ferguson on the first stop, Darby on the second, and Triplett on the third, and Boone on the fourth. It involves about six days; it’s a week of travel. BB: Is there a cost to enter into the wagon train? RH: I believe it’s a $1 registration fee. BB: And that’s all it cost other than food, etc.? RH: Right. That’s all, just the registration fee, and you do have to be registered before you can enter. BB: What is the reason for that? RH: The way they can keep check on how many wagons and horseback riders that they’re having, because if they didn’t have some way of registering these people and keeping check on them, then you wouldn’t know how many that you’re doing to have to start your train. BB: How many wagons do you have in the train? RH: Ordinarily about 85, and probably 150 horseback riders. BB: Is all the travel on dirt roads? RH: No, they have some paved roads from North Wilkesboro to within four or five miles of Darby. I wouldn’t know how many miles it was, not an excessive amount of paved roads, and then the rest is dirt roads. When they leave Triplett, they come up the old trail that is know now as “Jakes Mountain Road” and they come out at the (Blue Ridge) Parkway out here in the Bamboo section, and then cross the river into town. BB: You’re not on any major roads? RH: No, nothing on primary roads. BB: Do they take water along in old-timey barrels? RH: Yes, each wagon will have an old wooden barrel on the side of the wagon with the wooden spigot. Of course they wouldn’t necessarily have to do that in order to have a water supply. To make it look like a wagon train, and what you have, its good, and they can chunk a little ice in the water so they can have a cup of ice water any time on the way they wanted to, but there’s spring practically bursting out of every holler that they’re passing by, so water’s not problem. 5 �BB: How are the bathing facilities? RH: They do that in the stream. Now this road that they come up is Elk Creek to Darby, and then it’s changed its name to the Yadkin. Really it’s the head of the Yadkin River, starts in our community in Triplett. So they use the streams to do their bathing just like they always did. BB: Do you have a time what the men go in and then a time that the women go in? RH: Right. Maybe the men will be way down, 400 to 500 yards around the curve of the creek. BB: Can you think of anything else to add about the wagon train? RH: No, I don’t think of anything else that I could add. BB: What county offices have you held? RH: Just tax collector. I was appointed in 1968, starting my fifth year. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cfa024fef377ede5bbfb8a6488b7ba99.pdf 62b2936a1d62df18d7e8f5a413617aa6 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 51 Interviewee: Ralph Hayes Interviewer: Bill Brinkley 1973, March 29 BB: Bill Brinkley RH: Ralph Hayes BB: This is an interview with Mr. Ralph Hayes for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Bill Brinkley on March 29, 1973. When did you first become interested in politics? RH: Well, when I became interested in politics was when I was 21 years old, when I first registered then after my first election. Politics fascinated me, it looked like it was something that was interesting and would be a lot of fun, which I found out down through the years there has been a great deal of fun, a lot of pleasure, and you also hit some rough spots that is expected in politics. I was elected precinct chairman in my township when, I might be telling my age here, 35 years ago. I was elected precinct chairman. I have been active in politics ever since. I’ve been on all the various committees in the county, have been selected on a number of state committees which I’ve enjoyed attending very much. I have been a delegate to the state convention and haven’t missed one yet. Incidentally, to show…to tell you how far politics in this state have some since 1940, I was at a Republican state convention in Durham. There were less than 300 people from over the state at this convention. You couldn’t get anyone to accept the state chairman’s place; you couldn’t get a candidate to run for any statewide office, but the few that were there, they just kept working, kept hanging on, and eventually I think that we have arrived as a strong two-party system in the state. Far as the county politics are concerned, we are extremely fortunate in having a strong twoparty system in the county. We’re, I would say, pretty evenly divided; the two parties are in the county. It makes a good ballgame at each election. I have seen elections won in this county by a majority of three. I can remember one county commissioner being elected by a majority of one, and his brother and wife forgot to go to the polls that day. That beat him by one vote, and the guy that defeated him by one vote, so we had a margin of two votes. BB: Is it a little personal to ask you when you first registered? RH: No. When did I register? 1 �BB: Yes sir, the date. RH: I can’t recall the date that I registered, I sure can’t. BB: Like the year? RH: I’m 56, figure it out. BB: 1917? RH: It was in the 1930s. BB: You were born in 1917? RH: Right. BB: You registered when you were 21, so you registered in 1938? RH: Right. It would have been during the fall of 1938. BB: What campaigns have you been active in? RH: I have been active in all campaigns of course, since I have been eligible to vote. I’ve handled a number of candidate’s campaigns in the county, as county manager. Recently I handled Donald Kincaid’s successful bid for the state senate in Caldwell County from the district, and I’m also proud to say I handled Jim Holshouser’s campaign here in the county this past election, so was actually involved in three elections there with the him: the primary, the runoff, and the election. So it was a year’s pretty hard work for him. I’ve just been active in general in the Republican Party. BB: Are there any specific, maybe colorful instances, you remember in the Holshouser campaign? RH: If I could select one, it would have been the one between the primary and the runoff. I guess that we got, or I got more pleasure and thrills and excitement in the runoff election between he and Jim Gardner than I did in the general election. I’m real happy you know, that we won the election, but I guess that the runoff between the two is about the biggest thrill that I’ve had in a long time because we had kind of a dragged our feet, the Republicans had, here in the county. Might say this, that both parties in the county take a primary too lightly and as far as I’m concerned, it is the most important election that you have is the primary, but it’s the hardest election to get voters interested in and so we dragged our feet a little bit in the primary, but after the primary, then the big job ahead was to get more voters out which we got out with a month of real hard work, and we picked up about 600 or 2 �700 votes. Extra votes in the runoff over the primary, and I believe it’s about a 2,025 majority we got that nominated Jim Holshouser for Governor of North Carolina. BB: Was there any specific thing that you did to get people out for the primary? RH: No, the only thing that we did, we went into the precincts and made a door-to-door canvas asking people to be sure that they got out and voted, and up to that point they saw that Jim had a chance. So one of the reasons for the light vote in the primary was that nobody felt like he had a chance against a multimillionaire, and then if he got over that one, he was going against another millionaire. So politics have changed to a noticeable change here in the county. The voting habits are changing; they started this trend five or six years ago. You can’t predict an election in this county, and now you can’ predict it in the state by voter registration. Now, it used to be that here in Watauga County you could almost predict the outcome of an election as to how many each party has registered, but it isn’t that way any more. The young voters are studying their candidates. They’re better education and they make up their own minds, and they’re not voting Democrat or Republican just because dad, mother, grandma, and grandma was…which is good. I’m proud to see that happen and I think it is going to increase more and it’s going to continue. The voting trend is going to continue I think on the same patter its in. BB: Is there anything you do to get people out for the election? RH: Yes. What we try to do is, we like to get our candidates into each precinct in the county, and if we can do that and get them to the people, before the people, they can answer the questions of the voters, and what have you. There is not substitute now, for that, but if you can’t get to all of them, then what we try to do is then have one big countywide rally just before the election, and get as many people as we can to visit with the candidates, for the last ten years. We have had a caravan that we take over the county. We’ll organize a caravan, as many cars from each precinct that we can get all precincts represented. Then we have the candidates. In prior years, we have called it the “Broyhill caravan,” and so we go into every precinct in the county and we have people to meet us at these certain points in the precinct, and the candidates of course then can do some handshaking and some politicking, and then it generates an interest. You see a caravan coming through, of course we hauled an elephant that led the parade which is the symbol of the Republican party, and you see a caravan coming through your community, out here on a little dirt road with about 75 or 100 cars and all your candidates with their names and what have you on it. It creates an interest and gets the vote out. We feel like that is one of the better ways of getting the vote out. 3 �BB: Approximately how many miles to you travel in this caravan? RH: This trip probably takes us 150 miles. BB: You say that Broyhill always is in this caravan? RH: Yes, he and most of the time his wife Louise. BB: Do you have any big plans now, like for the governor being in it? RH: Yes, I think that on our next caravan, we would hope to have the governor in the caravan. I think it is something probably that the people would expect. BB: Do you feel that politics are dirtier today than they used to be? RH: No, politics are not, are not as dirty today as they were 20 years ago. People take their politics serious now, of course, but in a different way. Twenty or twenty-five year ago, it was very easily to have a dozen good fist fights, and some knives being used and guns and what have you, but people have grown out of that. They’re better educated and they’re taking their politics more serious. In fact, they’re looking now for good candidates, good men, to run their government, which is good. I’m really glad to see that, 20 or 25 years ago, it didn’t matter how well qualified a man was. They didn’t look for quality in a candidate like they do now. If he was a pretty “well liver” out here in the community with not too much business experience that didn’t matter wither. If he had a little money, he’s our man. But it isn’t the best. I like the way the voting trends have changed and the way the candidates are being picked, and the primary I think is one of the finest things that has happened to any government is to let the people pick their candidates they are going to vote on in the fall. Now if you got some candidates in there that are not qualified and you don’t think they can do the job, then we can get them out in the primary. BB: What do you think has caused people to deviate from the old custom of Democrat voting for Democrat, Republican voting for Republican, and not changing over any at all? RH: State that questions again. BB: What do you think has caused the people, instead of Democrats voting a straight ticket, Republicans voting a straight Republican ticket, why do you think maybe they have started changing their ideas about the candidates? RH: I think that one of the main things that has helped to change that is the news media, television, and radio. They’ve got their candidates on the air; they’ve got them on television where they can see them. They can listen, look, and study the candidates, but before that we 4 �had a wide coverage, news like we got today, and then it was either just a Democrat or a Republican. It was just one or the other. BB: You were talking about the convention you went to in Durham where you had the small amount of people and nobody wanted the Republican chairmanship. Do you feel that this is because of maybe people were ashamed of being Republicans? RH: Yes. At that time, in some parts of this state, the word “Republican,” well – you just didn’t hear it. Nobody would stand up and say, “I’m Republican.” I can remember 20 years ago a certain fine attorney from down in the eastern part of the state was running for governor on the Republican ticket, and I had the opportunity to be at one of his meetings in the eastern part of the state. You could see that there was people that would have liked to come out and listened and hear what he had to say, but they were for some reason, they acted like scared people, or something. Maybe they had worked for politicians and they didn’t dare to even come out and listen. BB: What state committees have you served on? RH: The state executive committee, and I have been a member of the county executive committee for 30 years. BB: Do you attend all the state things, like the Governor’s Ball, etc.? RH: Yes. BB: Were you down there? RH: Yes, I made the Governor’s Ball, the inauguration, and had a good time. There were lots of people there, they more or less rolled out the red carpet, and all that was in my party, we had a wonderful time. BB: I was there for the ball, but I didn’t get to stay for the inauguration. I had to come back to classes. RH: And all the state conventions, I attend all those, district conventions, and what have you. So if you like politics and enjoy it, you’re going to have to sacrifice, you’re going to have to sacrifice some things and you also, it gets expensive, such as these Lincoln Day dinners and what have you. But if you love politics, you’re going to be there. BB: Recently, I’ve been going to a lot of Republican dinners, the meetings, and things like that, and it seems like the party is so much closer together than like when I was growing up. What do you feel has caused this burgeoning of party unity just all at once it seems? 5 �RH: Well, I think that the people have seen where that a two-party system would be beneficial to our government. That is, and you can go back to the young people, your college students, and what have you. They’ve studied the records of both parties back through the years, and they’re making up their own minds, and seemingly now we do have a trend of the young people toward the Republicans. BB: Do you have any big aspirations, and big hopes for our Governor now? What will the basic changes be? RH: His basic changes are going to be administrative; it will be his biggest changes. Of course, there’s going to be some changes made on down to the county level. You take any party, if it was the Republican Party, I’m not critical of the Democratic Party, but any one party that stays in power over a period of 50, 70 years, they get stale. You have to have this corruption. I don’t think that either party could avoid this by being in power that long, and so it’s almost mandatory that neither party be left in power too long. BB: Do you feel that there is a great deal of corruption in the administration, or was? RH: Yes, I do. I feel like that there was a lot of corruption in the administration. The Highway Department was getting very corrupt and the Penal System was getting bad. He’s now working on that, he’s appointed new people to the Penal Division and it looks like they’re going to get it back when its supposed to be. Our mental health institutions were getting bad, real bad. He’s started to work on those; he’s reforming those. I understand that three or four directors have already been replaced with new men. So I think that within his four-year term, he’s have most of the corruption, he’ll never get it all. Don’t get me wrong; no party will ever get it. You’re going to have some in every party. But I feel like he’ll be working to keep this to a minimum. BB: I heard recently on the news they’re trying to get it so the governor can hold two terms in office. What are your feelings on that, and do you think it will go through? RH: I think that it will go through and that it should. It would be real hard for a governor to get his program set up and get the machinery in action and get this thing through completely to see what it’s going to do in a four-year term, but you can always if you think he’s not the man for the job, you can get him out at the end of the first term, but I think that a governor should be able to succeed himself and I think very strongly that he should have veto power. Maybe North Carolina is the only state in the Union probably that doesn’t, the governor doesn’t have the veto power. BB: Do you feel that this legislation will pass? RH: If they don’t pass it this term, I feel sure that they will next, the next term. There’s a lot on 6 �interest in…I noticed on the news the other night where former Governor Luther Hodges was advocating this. So I think that they can build up enough support to get that through, and I sincerely hope that they do. But of course it wouldn’t affect our present governor; it would be the ones that follow him, and it should be that way. BB: Do you feel that our present governor is looking at things very open-mindedly, or trying to take everything into consideration? RH: I feel sure that he is, he sure is. He’s looking at everything with an open mind. He will not go into partisan politics at the expense of the people of North Carolina. If he does, I’m going to be very much disappointed. 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Hayes, Ralph (interviewee) Brinkley, Bill (interviewer) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ralph Hayes [March 28 & 29, 1978] Subject The topic of the resource Historical reenactments--North Carolina Daniel Boone Wagon Train (N.C.) Republican Pary (N.C.)--History--20th century Hayes, Ralph--Interviews Description An account of the resource During the first of two interviews Mr. Hayes discusses in detail the Daniel Boone Wagon Train (years) that followed a route from Wilkes County to Boone using horse drawn wagons with people wearing 19th Century clothing and camping along the way. In the second interview Mr. Hayes discusses his involvement in local politics. He was elected as a precinct chairman about 1938, was active on several state committees and was a delegate to the state convention starting in 1940. He recalls how how he ran a local rally and campaign and attended several governor inaugurations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hayes, Ralph Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/28/1978 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 7 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound document Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 13:59:34 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Watauga County (N.C.) government Politics Republican Republican Party tax collector Watauga County N.C. https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2b8ff52594ba8c11ce4897d5c7a77998.mp3 5aaab0341314c24cf62e539863e2f7e7 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e2ff16b84bb951d71cfff050775c251f.mp3 87850752fb6c30aa10ba270932d65b0b https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/00eb4ea4c7c28041afbd5f8199de5234.pdf 97b38f175018b9645b0db1f59d45484f PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 235 Interviewee: J.O. Shell Interviewer: Barbara Greenberg 23 July 1974 BG: Barbara Greenberg JO: James O. Shell BG: This is a recording of Mr. J.O. Shell, done by Barbara Greenberg on July 23, 1974 at his son’s home in what area is this? JO: It’s Elk River. BG: Well, tell me Mr. Shell were you born and raised in this area? JO: No, I was born on Upper Shell Creek in Tennessee. And my father died when I was two months old and my mother, she moved back to the Heaton area. And I was principally raised in the Heaton area. BG: What year were you born? JO: I was born in 1892. BG: How many brothers and sisters did you have? JO: I had one whole sister, one half-sister, and four half-brothers. BG: Was Shell Creek, was that area named after your family? JO: Well, it’s been known as Shell Creek ever since I’ve known anything. My grandfather lived there and went to school. I went down there and went to school on up to Shell Creek for a while; stayed with my grandfather. BG: Do you remember very much about your grandfather? JO: Well, not too much. BG: What did he do for a living? JO: Well, he owned a farm up on Shell Creek. Worked on a farm. 1 �BG: Was your father a farmer also? JO: No, he was a carpenter. BG: Oh, was he? JO: Yes, he was a carpenter. I had part of his old tools until the ‘41 flood and I loved them. I had his toolbox and tools sitting out on the porch and it washed a part of the kitchen away and all his old tools away. BG: Boy! I hear the flood back then, was it in 1940 or was it ’41? JO: I believe it was ’41, but I’m not sure. BG: I’ve talked to several people who lived out in the Foscoe area and they told me that the flood really hit hard out there. JO: Oh, it was hard here. I can remember a hard one in 1901. But I can’t remember much about it because I was too young. BG: Did the flood of ’40 or ’41, did that affect many of the farmers around here? Did they have a real hard year that year? JO: Yes, it washed a lot of their stuff away. BG: Did anybody have any crops to sell or did they just barely have enough to feed their family? JO: I don’t know of anybody that had anything to sell. Don’t remember anyone. But I do know, remember it was stronger across the way. I had a good garden up there and it came and washed the land away and just left a rock bar. BG: How did your family decide how much of each crop they should plant each year? JO: Well, I don’t know really, they just decided about what they could really take care of. Back then people used horses you know, and plowed the ground with a horse. Some tried to plow with one horse, some of them with two. And they mostly tended their crop with a hoe. Back when I was a small boy. BG: I bet you worked in the fields a lot, since your family was smaller than a lot of the other families at that time. JO: I didn’t understand just what… BG: No, I’m just saying that you probably had to do a lot of work, a lot of chores yourself since 2 �your family was so much smaller, is that right? JO: Yes, yes. BG: What were some of the other chores that you had to do? JO: That was about the biggest thing that we did, was farm, but when I got to be old enough to drive a team, my stepfather, he had a yoke of oxen, and he would put me out hauling for those oxen. I’d make about $3 a day. I would give him six days and make $18 a week with that team. I thought we were doing well. BG: Can you describe a typical day for me when you had to go out and work the oxen? What time would you get up in the morning? JO: Oh, usually got up about four o’clock and got the horses fed, after that I drove the horses and I would get feeding, get up and go to feed about four o’clock in the morning. Eating breakfast started out in the dark and it would be dark when you got back that night. BG: When you came home that night, would dinner be all ready for you? JO: Oh, yes. And I can remember working at the Cranberry dome (iron ore that was mined in nearby Cranberry). And I worked ten-hour days. BG: How far was that to walk? JO: It was about, something over four miles each way. BG: Can you remember if there were ever any years when your family didn’t have enough food? JO: No, we always had food, except only during the 1901 flood I believe. Anyway, food got scarce then and we didn’t have much, couldn’t get anything one time. BG: Did your family plant their crops according to the moon? JO: Well, to some extent they did. BG: Can you remember any of the certain signs that were good for planting certain crops? JO: Well, I don’t remember just exactly but a lot of times, certain things they wanted to plant when the moon was new. And other things when it was an old moon. 3 �BG: When the Depression hit, what were you doing at this time? JO: In ‘30? BG: 1929, ’30 yes. JO: I was postmaster at that time. BG: When did you first become postmaster? JO: I was appointed in 1914, I believe in November. I forget what day in November. My commission is in there on the wall (in another room); you can go in there and look at it if you want to. BG: Great. In a little while maybe I can even take a picture of that. Well, tell me a little bit about you, when you were postmaster. What did you do? JO: Well, I worked about every day in the post office. But sometimes, I’d leave my wife and my daughter, when my daughter got old enough with the post office. And I got out and worked on a farm. And I can remember as I was always lazy about milking my cows and people teased me and said my cows would wait for me to milk them until after dark. BG: How many years were you postmaster? JO: Nearly 39. BG: 39 years, boy. And in which area? In Heaton? JO: Heaton, yes. The old building is there yet. Do you know where J.C. Ellis’s store is? BG: On the left as you’re going back towards Boone? JO: Boone, yes ma’am. The old post office is right in front of his on the right hand side of the road. It’s there yet. That old building is. BG: Let me see, what was the political scene like at that time? How did people tend to vote? JO: Well, just like they do now, but you know we didn’t have any radios, television like now. You watch news right off and sometimes it would be three or four days before we would get the news. I can remember when Woodrow Wilson was first elected. There was a friend of mine, he was about my age and we were kind of good friends you know, and together quite a bit. And I knew he was a strong Republican you know. Just after we heard the news that Woodrow Wilson had been elected to his first term. I saw him coming down the road. I stuck my head out, just waiting until he got past the door and stuck my head out around, out the door and hollered 4 �“Hurrah for Woodrow Wilson.” He turned back and looked over his should and said, “Hurrah for a dad burn fool!” (both laugh). That really tickled me you know. I just fell back and laughed. And then later on, after he became a man Mike changed from a strong Republican to a strong Democrat. But he and I were always friends. BG: Were the majority of the people Democrats at that time? JO: No. Most of the folks in Avery County were Republicans and are yet. BG: Was the Heaton area, was that Avery County at that time? JO: Yes. At that time it was. But at one time it was Mitchell County, that was when I was just a small child. Avery County was established in 1910 or 1911. I forget which. BG: Did many people in this area have slaves at that time? JO: Have what? BG: Slaves. JO: Sleighs? The children had quite a few. I can remember a mail carrier that carried the mail from Boone to Elk Park. It gets slick and bad sometimes and he’d carry it with horses on a sled. Jeff Billings was the mail carrier at that time. And he usually just had a small team of horses. He would hook them to that sled and carry the mail on a sled. And then another time there was a route from Heaton to Beech Creek. My brother-in-law, he carried the mail from Heaton to Beech Creek. He’d tell me about snow drifts being so deep that a lot of times he’d be walking there, he’d come to a snow drift that he would get a hold of the horse and pull him through that drift. BG: Boy, that’s some deep snow. JO: The winters back then, you know, were even harder than they are now. BG: I wonder why all of these changes are taking place like that? JO: Well, I think the Bible is fulfilled because, you know, the Bible says that time will come that you can’t tell winter from summer. It seems to me that its getting much lighter than they used to be. BG: A lot of people really believe that that’s what’s happening. Was there many “crooked carrying-on” in the political elections? JO: Well, it was about lit it is now, as far as I know. People… 5 �BG: Somebody was telling me that they didn’t go out and buy your vote with money. They would go out and then take you to the polls and make you sick. JO: Oh, I never did get drunk enough to know anything about that. I never id drink any whiskey much. I remember getting drunk when I was a little bitty boy. My mother let me go over to my grandfather’s to stay overnight, my sister and I. And she told us to come home the next morning early. My grandfather he was a good religious man but he always kept a jug, an old stone jug sitting under his bed with a little whiskey in it. And he’s take it down before breakfast every morning so he got his whiskey and picked him up a glass. He passed it to me, I just hung on to it and drunk until he took it from me. So good you know and I wasn’t used to it, and so I got so sick, my sister couldn’t take me home. It was way up in the day, about 10 or 11 o’clock until I was able to go home. I didn’t know any better and I just kept drinking. That’s the only, well, I remember getting drunk one time after that. I was a small boy. I wasn’t but…Sunday school teacher. Did you hear him sing at Elk Park Sunday nights? I got a couple of other fellers and went out one night and had a pint of whiskey. We drank that pint of whiskey and all got kind of high on it. That was my last. Well, another time I stayed with one of my friends one night. One of them got so drunk he couldn’t get home and so we had to stay all night. And next morning I went home and felt so bad. And my stepfather had a big old mule and he told me he wanted to plow that mule that day. And I thought well, could I ever make it? But I finally got the old mule and wen over to the field and after I was there I got to work, I got hot, and I got better and worked all day. But that was my last time I ever got the old saying is “high.” BG: Did a lot of the people around here used get, as you say, “high?” JO: Well, no more than it is now, I don’t think. BG: Let’s go back to your early life on the farm a little bit. Did you and your sisters, were the jobs – the chores, were they divided that you had to do a certain think or did you all work together? JO: No, my stepfather would go off and tell us to do certain tasks, give us a certain thing and we usually always got it done. If we didn’t we were afraid we’d get a whipping. BG: Did you and your sister alternate jobs? Like you did something one time and the next time it had to be done and she would do it? JO: No, we usually just did little jobs both together. Of course, she helped in the kitchen you know, and I didn’t too much. BG: What type farm machinery, farm equipment did you use then? 6 �JO: We just used old one horse plows and some two-horse turn plows, hillside plows you know mostly. And then we used hoes for the rest. BG: When modern farm machinery came out, what kind of effect did it have on the farmer? JO: Well, on some of them, it was quite a help. But some didn’t farm enough to buy it and they had to farm the old fashion way. BG: Did it seem to give the farmer a lot more leisure time or did he have to spend a lot of time taking care of his new equipment? JO: It seemed like he worked quite a bit. BG: Did your family ever grow any crops, any cash crops? JO: I don’t remember it. Had many things to sell. Now, I raised beans after I got grown. I raised them for several years. I sold them of course and then I sued to raise cabbage to sell. BG: Would you sell your crops to big buyers or would you sell it to small buyers? JO: Well, usually just small buyers would come around with a wagon or a truck you know. Buy it. After I got older and raised more stuff, there was quite a lot of people hauling the stuff to Knoxville and sold it. BG: Did they get much better prices down there? JO: They would get a much better price down there than they could around here. BG: Would all the farmers get together and just make one big haul to Knoxville or would everybody go separately and take their own? JO: Why, they would usually have enough stuff just to take a load of their own, you know. We used trucks. Of course we traded down around Johnson City and Elizabethton some back in the horse and wagon days. They hauled it on a wagon. BG: Did your neighbors help you harvest your crops? JO: Well, some. They would, back in those days you know. They would clear a piece of land, and they would get a certain date for a log rolling and a lot of the men in the community would come and help pile the logs you know. And you would always fix up a good dinner for them and have a good time. I remember I was going to a corn shucking one night after I was married, after I was grown and was shucking corn and somebody hit me in the head with an ear of corn. I never did find out who it was. I don’t know whether they did it accidently or whether they did it on purpose. 7 �BG: Can you remember any other stories about any particular corn shuckings when something funny happened? JO: Well, I remember we used to go to several but I don’t remember any specific accidents that happened much. BG: Did people give rewards for people who shucked the most corn or did you play games or anything like that? JO: Well, sometimes they would play games. They never got any rewards that I remember. BG: It seems like families used to be closer together then, and the neighbors used to help out more? Could you tell me a little bit about that? JO: Well, if a person…if one certain person was building a new house you know, the neighbors would come and help him on the building. And you don’t see any of that anymore. They always have to do their own work. Nobody will help you free much. Of course people do yet, you know some. But they were better to help each other seems to be, back several years ago than they are now. BG: Where did you go to school, around here? JO: Well, we had a school over at Heaton. I went there until 1910. I believe it was and then I went to Melvin one year, down at Melvin College. But I had not completed high school at that time. And in 1911, we had a high school, the first high school that was ever in Avery County. I believe it was 1911 or 1912, I’m not sure. And I went to high school one year at Elk Park on the side of the hill. BG: Can you describe it to me, what did it look like? JO: Well, I can’t remember too much of what it looked like. But I can tell you who the principal was. Professor Pearson was his name. But I don’t remember his given name. BG: How did he teach, if there were so many different grades in this one classroom, how would he teach everybody something different at the same time? JO: Well, they just have different classes, you know. And while one class was doing one thing then he’d be teaching another class something else. BG: Yes. Did you used to write on slates? JO: Yes, we used to have old slates, you know and slate pencils? 8 �BG: Penny pencils? JO: No, I don’t know if they were. I don’t know what they called them, they didn’t have any wood on them, you know they were jut a little pencil you marked with on the slates. BG: They didn’t have any wood on the pencil, it was just like lead? JO: They were chalk you know, they used a blackboard and used chalk a lot. Can you remember seeing chalk? BG: Chalk? JO: Chalk? To write with. BG: White chalk, yes, we used that. JO: Well, we used that a lot back in my days, when I was going to school. BG: What type of classes did you learn when you were in school? What subjects? JO: I studied arithmetic and algebra, history and geography, and I don’t remember what else. BG: What type of games did you and your friends used to play at your recess time? JO: Oh, we played ball. They hit the ball and then they would run and if they got across before they go to the based, why they were out. Somebody else took their place. And then we had another one called “Bull Pen.” I know my uncle, he was a preacher, but he came to the school house and played Bull Pen with us. But I don’t remember too much about how we played it. BG: Did you used to make your own balls? JO: Oh yes, made it out of cotton thread. BG: Did you wrap leather around the balls, is that what you used to do? Somebody was telling me they would take their mother’s old shoes that were all worn out and wrap leather around the balls to make them last longer? JO: Well, I think they did that some, but usually back when I was going to school they just were thread ball. Just used cotton thread and rolled them. BG: Was it hard to make one? JO: No, no. 9 �BG: Did the girls play these games with you or… JO: Sometimes they would play ball some. I remember they used to have a game they would call “Dare Base,” they played that quite a bit. BG: Did a lot of the town people around here used to meet at one certain store in town and sit around and tell folktales and things like that? JO: I remember up there in Heaton, they used to do that and called it “Rover’s Story.” A little bit you know around there, some people called it “Rover’s Story.” BG: That’s a good name for it I guess. Were any of your neighbors or your family, were any of you all involved in playing banjos and making music? JO: No. None of my family did it. I had an uncle named James Heaton, he was a merchant, wholesale and retail merchant there in Heaton and he enjoyed singing mighty well. He usually always had singing for about two or three times a week. About once a week in the middle of the week and then on Sunday and Saturday. And he preached quite a bit. BG: Did you feel it was, or did the people feel that it was important to be real active in the community? JO: Be active? BG: Active, yes. JO: Well, I guess it was about then like it is now. People are about the same. BG: It seems like it would, the more active you were, the more it would help your political career and everything like that. JO: I can remember Eddie Ray’s brother, and he lived up there at Heaton. After they put in a Trailways bus, he would see that bus come in and say “Yonder, here comes the big bus.” That was Homer, Homer, Jr. Eddie Ray’s brother. BG: Does he live around, does he live…where now? JO: I don’t know where he’s at now. He must be in California. He’s still in the service. BG: Can you tell me the different between the things you did in the summertime compared to the wintertime? Was the summer a lot easier, even though you had all your farming to do or was it easier to fight off the cold in the wintertime? JO: Well, of course we didn’t have so much work to do, you know. Everybody burned wood 10 �mostly then. And had to get out and cut a lot of wood when it was cold and bad to get it in. I remember that we always had a fireplace and we would, if there was a fire, we would get a buckeye and cut it for back sticks. That was a stick to burn in the back and the other wood such as hickory and sugar tree and maybe oak and so on, for to burn in front of that back stick. That old back stick would be green buckeye and it would burn, last a long time. BG: Burn a lot slower. JO: Yes. BG: Can you tell me something about the houses back then? JO: Well, there were not many people that had very good houses. Just two or three roomed houses about what they mostly had. Some of them only had one room. And you never saw any carpets on the floor very often. BG: Really? I thought that a lot of the ladies used to weave their own carpet? JO: I never knew of anybody weaving any carpet but, I can remember the spinning wheels. They used to take wood and make yarn out of it. And use yarn for whatever they wanted to make like socks and so on. BG: A lot of the people raised their own sheep then? JO: Oh yes, there was quite a few sheep then but there are not that many now. BG: I don’t know, why do people not raise sheep anymore around here? JO: Well, dogs go so bad until I had to sell. I’ve raised sheep I guess, for 30 years. And gos got so bad, they killed the sheep, so I had to sell mine. Sold them two years, two or three years ago. I haven’t raised any in about three years. BG: Can you remember what the attitude of the people was when the first cars came to the area? JO: Yes, I can remember that people, they thought it was something great you know. And I can remember the first one I ever rode in. One of my friends that lived in Banner Elk bought one of the first cars that was around. I’d been somewhere walking and he picked me up between Heaton and Elk Park and gave me a ride and that’s something I can remember the first time I ever drove one too. Back then you didn’t have to have any license, you just bought your car and went ahead and used it. It was like with horses you know. But that didn’t last too long until you had to have a tag for each car. 11 �BG: How fast would those first cars go? JO: About 20 miles per hour. That was a pretty good speed. BG: Well, how did most people feel towards the car? Did they welcome it? JO: I think so. I think most of them appreciated them. BG: Can you think of any specific changes that started coming into use? JO: Well, I don’t know of anything special that happened. Of course people began to buy you know quick as they, people didn’t have money then that they have got now. And they would buy a car when they got able. BG: What about the railroads? Can you remember the first railroads? JO: Yes. I can remember a little narrow gauge that came from Johnson City to Boone. And I don’t remember, I believe it was the 1940 flood that washed away so much of it between Cranberry to Johnson City until about oh, I don’t know. Its been discontinued I guess about 20 years. They called it E.T. & W.N.C, the East Tennessee and Western North Carolina Railroad, but most people called it the “Arbuckle.” BG: what was the train ride like? Was it hot and smoky and anything like that? JO: No, no, it was a mighty good one. People you know riding the train. Sometimes they would have a special trip. I can remember going to Boone one time on a special trip. Just for the trip you know, no business. Just for the trip. BG: Did you take many trips that weren’t for business very often or did you usually go places for business purpose only? JO: Mostly for business purposes. BG: Can you tell me the difference in a weekday compared to a weekend? JO: I have to understand just what you mean by that. BG: Well, did you do farm work on the weekends the same as on the weekday? JO: Oh, yes. People used to work six days a week. Now they only work five. They used to work ten hours a day and now they only work eight. BG: Did everybody in the community go to church on Sunday? 12 �JO: No. But people went to church very little back then in those days. Of course, there were not near as many people as they are now you know. There just were not that many people like there are now. But they attended church very little back then. Like they do now, about the same amount. BG: Were the church services different then compared to how they are now? JO: Well, not too much. Preacher usually preached the Bible you know, couldn’t be much difference. BG: Some people have told me that…what was I going to say? Oh well. What were funerals like? JO: Well, they were different when somebody died in the community. Somebody made a coffin, they didn’t go to a store and buy it. There wasn’t any place to buy it. Somebody would make it. They would be buried in a homemade coffin. Now they wouldn’t know what a homemade coffin was I don’t guess. BG: I don’t guess so. JO: I used to remember this fellow named John Harmon back in the Beech Mountain section that made coffins. He usually kept a few made ahead, you know, for people. But a lot of times they would make your coffin after they died. BG: Were the graveyards scattered throughout the area or did people like to be buried on their own land? JO: Well, some often wanted to be buried on their own land but now the graveyards in Heaton, I can remember the first one that was buried there. And it’s a pretty big cemetery now. But there are a lot of differences you know, in funerals in those days and today. People just had to take them to church in a wagon, with a horse and a wagon. I can remember when my mother died. They took her to church in a wagon. That was back, I guess in the ‘30s or ‘40s. BG: Were there not any laws about where you could bury people and where you couldn’t bury people? JO: They used to have cemeteries around certain places in the community, you know, they would all have a name. Now line the one up there at Heaton, one named the Heaton Graveyard and there’s another one across on the other side of the river called Smith Graveyard, and another one back over on the mountains a little further called (inaudible) Graveyard. You see people mostly named them after people that were first buried there. They would start their own graveyard, you know. BG: So they were not really like church graveyards then? JO: No. 13 �BG: Did they have a service at the…like a graveside service or did they hold the service at the church? JO: They had both. They would have a funeral at the church and then the preacher usually talked some at the graveyard. BG: Was your family involved in any crafts in any way? JO: Not that I remember. BG: The crafts that people speak of today were really just your livelihood in a way. Its how you kept going you know, making your own clothes and spinning and weaving and all that. JO: People used to make about all their clothing you know. I can remember a fellow down at Shell Creek whose name was, he was a Miller and his wife had knit a pair of socks. He said, “I’ll give you a quarter for the pair of socks,” Yes, I guess you would like to cheat your wife out of a few cents. I can take them down to Woodrow’s store and get 25 cents for them. Now, I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but they told it to an old gentleman. BG: The mother used to knot all the socks for her family? JO: Oh, yes. BG: How many pair of socks would you have? JO: Oh, two or three I guess. Didn’t have many. Just enough for a change you know. Of course some would have more than others. BG: How many pairs of pants would you have? Just those that you worked in everyday and then another pair for Sunday? JO: Yes. I can remember when I was just a boy. Usually a boy wore knee pants and he was sporting a pair of pants and a little shirt. One Sunday a couple of boys would come to spend the Sunday with me and we went swimming just a little ways over the hill on what they called “Gator Branch.” I noticed that one of the boys he was in a little hurry to get his shirt and pants on before I had mine. I took out up the road after him, he was about a quarter mile ahead. He got ready and just threw my pants way off above the road on an old brush pile. I had to crawl in that brush and get my pants. BG: Did you get him back? JO: Oh, I threw rocks at him all the way back. 14 �BG: Can you think of some more old stories of experiences that you had that would be interesting to us? JO: Well, I don’t know of anything that would be very interesting. Of course, you know it wouldn’t be interesting to me anyway. After I got to be older why I had the experience of going to Georgia quite a lot. I bought a farm down there, between Greensboro and Madison. I bout a 326 and ¾ acre farm down there for $3,300 I believe it was. I kept it from 1927 until about 16 year I think it was. I would go down there every three or four times a year. We kept renters there, kept cattle down there. I would buy cattle down there and bring them back here and sell them. And I had quite an experience going to Georgia and back. BG: You own quite a bit of land today don’t you still? JO: Well, they have my tax at about 471 acres. And than a couple of lots at Heaton. BG: What were land taxes like back when you first started buying land? JO: Oh, they were cheap then. Land was cheap too. BG: How much did you pay for most of the land that you own now? JO: Now, this house, you see what it is. About 30 acres, maybe about 33 acres of land was the first I ever bought here on Elk River. I bought it for 1,800 dollars. BG: 30 acres for 1,800 dollars? JO: And then I bought another 100 acres gross on the other side of the mountain called Fall Creek. I got it at a sale. A man owed them 2,000 dollars for the mortgage to somebody else and he didn’t pay for it, they put it up for a public sale and I got those 100 acres of land for 500 dollars. When UI went to the sale there wasn’t anybody there and I thought that would bid against me. His name was Ed Lewis, and when the man brought the sale up he said not to start for less than 500 dollars. He turned around to Mr. Lewis and said “What will you give me for it?” I said, “Oh, I reckon I’ll give you 500 dollars.” So I got 100 acres of land for 500 dollars, he had been asking 2,000 dollars for it. “The buck stops here.” BG: The land down here where the Elk Falls are? JO: No, I own some land below the falls. BG: You don’t? JO: No, that belongs to the government. 15 �BG: I went swimming down there. It was so cold, I did it and every muscle in my body froze up. Did you go down to the big one? Did you go down to that? JO: Yes. My next-door neighbor went down there and he jumped off the top. That is what about 65 feet isn’t it? BG: I’ve seen people jump off. Not me! JO: I wouldn’t want to do that! BG: Didn’t you tell me about the mailman who used to ride ½ down the falls and jump the rest of the way? What’s the story about the mailman? JO: I don’t remember, but I do remember a mailman who was carrying mail to Beech Creek and one day he came to eat, got his mail, then started back to Beech Creek and the water was up pretty high. It had been raining hard. Along by night he came back with a wet mail bag. He said the creek was so high it swept it away and he found it down the creek. So I took the mail u of that bad, fried it, and delivered it. Every piece of it, then sent the bag back. BG: Well, what happened to the mailman? JO: He didn’t get hurt, he went on. I’ve got a piece that was written about him, rowing the branch. I’ve got it, I’ll let you read id you would like to. BG: Let’s talk some more now. JO: He never would ride a horse. He walked. He would just about run downhill. But he walked fast the entire time. He just had one hand, lost one hand back in his young days. BG: Can you give me a comparison of your feelings of life compared to today to when you were growing up? JO: Well, I don’t think it was any better. Of course there were not so many people back then and it seemed that things were not as hurried when I was young. BG: Do you think having a small community school was better than having the larger schools in big areas now? JO: I think you can have better schools by having them small, but it seems like now such as Avery County. At one time they had three schools, and now they have one. People have to come from Beech Creek and Plum to Newland for school. That’s awful far for them to travel to high school. But still people think it’s better; I guess they think it is because they still continue them all in one. 16 �BG: Would you say that life is easier now or harder? JO: Well, people don’t work as hard as they used to back then. But it seemed that people were stronger then and could enjoy it better. You know the Bible speaks of a generation that will get weaker and modern. It seemed to be that its getting that way, don’t you? Of course you know people are a lot wiser than they used to be, because they didn’t know how to make automobiles and airplanes, and like that. End of interview 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Shell, J.O. (interviewee) Greenberg, Barbara (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13, Election of Woodrow Wilson, 01:28, Heaton Postmaster Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Oliver (J.O. Shell), July 23, 1974 Subject The topic of the resource Shell, James (1891-)--Interviews Farm life--North Carolina--Avery County--History--20th century Avery County (N.C.)--History--20th century Avery County (N.C)--Social life and customs--20th century Description An account of the resource James Oliver Shell was born on January 26, 1891 in Shell Creek, Tennessee where his grandfather owned a farm and worked as a carpenter. His father died when he was two months old, so his mother reared the children living with her father. Mr. Shell had one sister, a half-­‐sister, and four half-­‐brothers. As a young man James O. Shell moved to the Heaton community of Avery County North Carolina and was a farmer and served as the postmaster in Heaton from 1914 to about 1953. He died on July 4, 1980 at the age of 88. During the interview James O. Shell reflects on working his farm, local politics, and playing baseball as a youth. He discusses log rollings, corn shuckings, and the how neighbors helped each out. Some other topics he discusses are Tweetsie Railroad, homemade coffins, local cemeteries and playing baseball. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell, James Oliver Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 23-Jul-74 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 17 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 14:04:46 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Shell Creek (T.N.) Avery County (N.C.) Avery County cemetery coffins corn shucking Education Elk Park ET & WNC railroad farming Heaton local politics postmaster railroad rural mail delivery Tennessee Tweetsie Railroad https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c0fda66486b11b32e32cefae4864f3fa.mp3 da32e4a686b13e86c5ca44db2778b99f https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5344c91deed430f25c6ddcfaf3733297.pdf cc47525b342044c703215c0f6e88d073 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 214 Interviewee: Charles Bolick Interviewer: Barbara Greenberg 21 June 1974 CB: Charles Bolick BG: Barbara Greenberg BB: Charles Bolick of Blowing Rock, North Carolina interviewed by Barbara Greenberg on June 21, 1974 at his home. Well, Mr. Bolick, Charles you… CB: Charlie, that’s my name and that’s Libby, my little darling over there. BG: You want to start out by telling me a little bit about where you were born and your family. CB: Oh, well…its just about ten miles from Blowing Rock over in Caldwell County. Mulberry Valley, a good farming community. BG: And did your parents own their land there? CB: Oh, yes. They owned their own home. BG: How much land did they have? CB: Oh, I think it was 150 acres in that place. My mother had a couple of hundred somewhere else. And, we just lived…that was all there was to it. We had to work. We had to do this, that, you know. And go barefoot, summer time us kids did. And we would get so danged tired playing, that if we stubbed a toe over a flint rock…the sparks would fly, that’s for sure. They would, we could light our way after dark by stubbing our toes. BG: How many people were in your family? CB: There was one little girl that died, I don’t remember her, I wasn’t even born yet. But there would have been eight had she lived. There were seven of us. Five boys, two girls. BG: What did your father do? CB: He was a farmer, just a plain homesteader. He had to be, like most of the people back those days. They had to be. They just had to do what they had to do and there was not much, as I understood it, not much money back in those days. The people, but yet the old timers they had to have cash to pay their taxes. And he told me that his father, my granddad, old granddad 1 �Abner, he had his own still. He used to make whiskey and he sold it at ten cents a quart, 40 cents a gallon, in order to get money to pay his taxes. That had to be in cash. Otherwise they could barter you know, the barter system. If we have something we have a little surplus of, we could swap to our neighbor who may have had something we needed. You know that’s the same as cash and sometimes I think maybe it was better off that way than it is today. The only thing we’ve got that isn’t worth anything is our dollar. Everything else is worth something today. BG: Especially the land. CB: Oh, Lord yes. Even the barrel box cost you 25, 50, maybe 100 dollars. Well, it’s a homestead; okay you got it from now on. We had to think of those things too. That’s permanent, to pay taxes. Those are the two things that will last right on through. BG: Till the end. CB: Yeah, just right on and on. BG: Well, when did you start farming? CB: When? Oh, I was about knee high I guess. Kept clearing new ground. We burned a lot of good wood, just piled them up, you know new ground. Logs, brush, everything. But farming, that is the way we grew up back in those days, we had to. BG: How did you decide how much of each crop you should plant? How did you know how much you would need for the next year? CB: Well, that was just a matter of what folks knew, it was experience. They would just plant what they thought and hoped they needed with perhaps a little surplus, you know. It was just that way. Sow turnip seeds, you know, when we were laying the corn by. They lay corn in the new ground we would sow turnip seeds, then pumpkin seeds. And maybe fill up an old hollow chestnut stump with turnips in the fall of the year. They’d keep maybe, if we covered them over good. Haul them out by the sled load, you know, and pumpkins, they’d break loose from a vine and go rolling just having a big time down the mountain. BG: Do you farm as much now as you used to? CB: Oh no, we just to a little gardening now. Just a little gardening and the better half does most of that right? I don’t see my way around too good any more. BG: were there ever any times when your family didn’t grow enough food and when you were hungry? 2 �CB: Oh yeah, we went through all that. We just had to make do without. The only things we bought back in those days was sugar and coffee and once in a while rice if we wanted to be real fancy, we would buy enough of rice for breakfast. But the rest of it we just grew on the place. And we raised our own hogs and killed a beef in the fall of the year, salt them. You know, we didn’t have all that fancy stuff, it was just plain salt. And some of the best eating. We made kraut, we raised cane, I mean the kind you make sorghum out of it. Well, we just had to make it or else we didn’t have it. BG: Did you have chickens and cows? CB: Chickens? Yes, and turkeys. BG: How were the chores divided on a farm? Did the boys do certain chores and the two girls do other things or…. CB: Oh, a whole lot like now. The girls did their share of the chores and the boys of course worked outdoors like gathering corn and hoeing corn and digging potatoes. And the girls were more interested in quilting or making their clothing. BG: Helping your mom in the kitchen? CB: Cooking, yes, exactly. And Lord knows the mothers had plenty to do back in those days. Besides raising a bunch of little heathens that we were. BG: Did you give your mother a hard time? CB: No, she was always our best friend. BG: That’s great. Did the Depression have very much effect on your family? CB: Well yes, it did to me. I wasn’t here then, I was out in the western country, but Lord it did hit out there. The Depression? Do you mean that 1928, ’29, ’30 Depression? It was tough. And it must have been rough on other people, because I was single then. I hadn’t been exposed to marriage at that time. So no responsibilities other than, well…I was working on this construction camp, and this friend of mine, Old Smiley Thomas, he said, “You know something?” I said, “What Smiley?” He said, “The times are getting better.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “They are making the hotcakes bigger and thicker.” Every morning, we were living in this boarding house; the hotcakes were bigger and thicker. Oh Lord, is that thing on? BG: Tell me, when you planted your crops in the spring of the year, did you know whom you were going to sell your crops to? 3 �CB: Oh, no. We were just growing them ourselves. BG: There was no cash crop? CB: Well, whatever we might swap with a neighbor for something, if they had a surplus of more that they needed. I’ll never forget one time my mother sent me over to old uncle Will Green’s. He’d always butcher a yearling, take down to the Grove Store and sell it on Election Day. That was usually in early November, the 6th I believe. And my mother said, “Charlie, go up there this morning and get us a good mess of beef. Your dad, when he goes for live beef, he always brings back part of the neck; the brisket they call it.” She said, “Get something better.” Well, I bought ten pounds of steak, 50 cents for 10 pounds, or five cents a pound. Well, I got back home with it and my mother balled me out for buying such expensive meat. Can you imagine that? She did. She said, “Charlie, I didn’t mean for you to buy such expensive beef.” I’ve thought of that time and again. Five cents a pound for good steak, just a yearling beef, you know not an old or a tough one or something. BG: Good eating wasn’t it? CB: Yeah, it was. But I couldn’t quite get over her kind of balling me out about buying such expensive meat, it was five cents a pound, ten pounds was 50 cents. And you know how I made that 50 cents? I used to help my dad run his still. BG: Did your dad run his own still? CB: Oh yeah, copper stills back in those days. They weren’t government inspected. We had a lot of fun. We talk now how to make apple brandy. BG: Tell me how you make it? CB: Well, you just grind up the apples and set them in wooden barrels and when it ferments and gets to the proper stage, before it turns to vinegar, you just boil it. Just distill and boil it. And that’s all it and you get something. It’ll be brandy tomorrow. And two or three sips, you could make a rabbit walk up and spit in a bulldog’s face. BG: Well, tell me…you don’t have to put any sugar in it? Just… CB: No, we didn’t then. We were not that smart. No, it just made more. It produces more. Like this old farmer was telling me about his corn crop this year. He said, “I’ll calculate that it will grow about 60 gallons to the acre.” BG: What do you mean 60 gallons? Did you mean 60 bushels? CB: No, we get two gallons to the bushel. So he figured it in gallons. Except one fall of the year, 4 �some of the neighbors got worried because he wasn’t going to their revival meeting at night. You know those country folk…back in those days; I guess here and there they’re still that way. My dad said, “Charlie, some of the neighbors are wondering why you’re not attending. Maybe you would better go down to the Bryant’s and sort of wash up a little bit and put you on a clean pair of overalls. Just shut the still down and go on to the church. That will take the pressure off.” Well, it did. It worked. BG: What was it like (running the still)? Did you have to hide this still a lot? Did you have to hide the fact that you had this still? CB: Oh yes, that was all way back in the cove, the little burner. Otherwise you would get “chopped down” as they called it then. The revenue agent, the IRS, the same outfit that collects our income taxes. They are something. BG: I hear they are bad people. CB: Well, we had a lot of fun. It was rough growing up in that time and day, but we did enjoy life, just like people do today. Just a little different style and manner that is all. We were ourselves, and they were themselves. Like the old saying out west, “Well men are men, and women are glad of it.” That’s the way it was then, down here at home, right through these hills. I wouldn’t mind living through it again, knowing what I know now. It was rough, but that was only what we had, so we had to live it. BG: That’s right. Do you think life today is harder or easier than it was then? CB: It’s much easier, but it’s too fast. Everybody’s in a hurry today. Back in those days you just didn’t rush through like they do it now, it’s the way I see it. Somebody asked me not long ago, “How did you do it? How did you hang on so long to life?” My answer is by not hurrying. The only time I ever got in a hurry in my life I was trying to stop. Just one time I got in a hurry. BG: Well what happened? CB: I had straddled a danged riled horse and he was running away with me. That was it. The next thing I knew I was sitting there looking at the other mountainside, blinking my eyes like a frog in a hailstorm or something. And didn’t know who I was or where I was. Two arms, one collarbone busted, and my head and neck bruised. They made me a trough to eat out of, I couldn’t feed myself. Well, I still like horses now, if you can imagine that after that one near beat me to death. It was a little two or three year old stallion. The horse was as gentle as a kitten, but he just decided he was going to have his fun, and he did. BG: How old were you then? CB: About 17 or 16. I was old enough to have known better. 5 �BG: Really? CB: When I look back at things like that its sort of amusing and, you know, if you didn’t have a sense of humor you wouldn’t have much. At least I wouldn’t. I sort of like that idea of taking things lightly, you know. Don’t be too serious about things and don’t get in a hurry. BG: Yes, you get by a lot easier. Talking about getting in a hurry, did people go visiting very much when you were a boy? CB: Not very much. Well, they did on Sunday. That was church day, you know…Sunday school. And that was the chance they had the whole week to see their neighbors. People would have this church group where they would get together and get acquainted again. And do a little gossiping sometimes on the side. But it was interesting. That was the only thing that we had to look forward to. There were no picture shows, no little league baseball. The only place where kids could go. Sunday morning we could put on our clean shirt and go to church without asking mom or dad, “Can we go?” That was understood, that was a part of life. They knew where we were going. We knew where we were going, there were no questions asked at all on Sunday morning. Do as you please, as long as you go to church. Well, sometimes as little boys we would always go to Sunday school first then church. Sometimes we would prefer the swimming hole that was about a half mile below the church. We would play “hooky,” I believe they call it. We sure did, but it was fun. Once in a while we would have to kill a water snake or something. BG: Does the water stay pretty cool up here all summer long? Is it warm enough to go swimming? CB: Well, this was down in Caldwell County about 2,000 feet lower than Blowing Rock. Down in the valley, John’s River Valley and Mulberry Valley, which was just under the mountain three or four miles away. Yes, up here the only way I would go swimming is to fall in and hope that didn’t happen. It’s too cold up here. BG: Pretty chilly. What about your schooling? Can you tell me something about your schooling? CB: Yes, ma’am. If I can remember. We had a three-day rain one time, way back in the teens. That’s a little further back than you remember I’m sure. It washed the foot-log away, and we were living on the wrong side of the creek. The schoolhouse was on my side. So I had to go to school for three days before they go the foot-log put back. BG: That’s the only schooling you ever had? Those three days? CB: Yes, that was it. Except for just reading the Boone Almanac and a few newspapers. BG: Where did you learn to read? 6 �CG: At my home by firelight. Preacher Savage used to be the Episcopalian minister here. I think that he was raised over somewhere in Allegany County. He gave me a book; the name of it was Treasure Island. I started reading it on Christmas morning, that was my Christmas gift, and I finished reading it about midnight. I just had my head buried right in that thing. First in my bedroom, then I had to go out on the porch, then upstairs. I was so danged scared I called my mom to show me to my bedroom after reading that book by firelight. The house was a bit crude, it didn’t have things so modern back then. That is, not compared with today anyway. Its like those old timers used to say it was “root hog” or “die them days,” and hogs didn’t root them like they do now. BG: What do you mean by that? CB: Well, hogs would just stick their nose in the ground and start walking. Now these days they have smarted up, they go “hunching along.” I’m sure that is going to be interesting now. BG: Go ahead. CB: Pardon? GB: I just said go ahead and tell me some more. CB: About what? BG: You’re doing just fine. CB: Well, thank you. I hope it will not create too many red faces. But, just thinking of things back those days like they were then and like they are today, there is really no comparison. Back in those das when I was a young fellow, we just had one-track roads. It was either a buggy or a wagon or a sled. Just right of the river. Most of the roads followed the creek bank, through the farm area. Back in those days farmers were what kept us alive and they couldn’t afford to give valuable level land, it was with corn or wheat or something for a road. That had been unheard of. BG: Doesn’t the way people used to utilize what they had, taking advantage of the land and misusing it? CB: Well, they just had to do it. Yes, we used to make molasses like I told you a while ago. Boil molasses, you grind the can round with an old cane mill, horse or a mule, or an old steer or something. That used to be my job. Pulling that thing, pushing him along, grinding candy. It took one complete circle for the horsepower to equal one turn of the cane mill. So it was a slow process. And it was just a toss up which one of us got dizzy first, going around and around. And lots of times we would have to take one out when it would fall. Put in a new one that wasn’t so disturbed, or something. 7 �And chestnuts, the forest full of chestnut trees then. It was a lot more fun to pick them up and road them in front of the old molasses boiler furnace. That was made it worthwhile was roasting chestnuts. BG: I don’t think that I’ve ever eaten any chestnuts. They are just not around anymore. When was it that the blight hit and wiped out all of the chestnuts? CB: When? Well, it was some sort of blight. It got all of tem. All of our original, now they are what they call blight resistant Chinese chestnuts. They are not too good either. I planted a few of those. They are a very poor substitute for what we used to have, our original chestnut trees. BG: When did this blight hit? Do you know what year that was? CB: Oh, it started when I was a kid. My granddad had a big old field he called his chestnut orchard. Great big old chestnut trees that were three or four feet in diameter and he would go out there and pick them up. He would just fell for them, but they started dying. I was probably ten years old, that’s a little while ago. Life was really interesting back then. It still is for that matter, but people are living so different today. Too much hurry. Too much, well just we’ve got to get there or we don’t, these days. And I don’t see where it quite, I don’t know…maybe it’s a wholesome life. That’s all people know. The young people these days, is what they’re living. Just like we did. The thing is its just different for us old timers. But yet its all the young people know. This is their life. And some of them are living it up a little bit. BG: Way too fast. CB: That’s what I would say. It’s no use hurrying through. It’s too short anyway. I’m not mad; I don’t know whether they quit. It just doesn’t work that way. BG: You’ve got a real good attitude. CB: Well, thank you. I have been that way most of my life. Like I say, if you didn’t have a little sense of humor, you wouldn’t have any sense. It all goes together. It works together. It’s about what you make of it, is the way I see it. But the main thing, don’t get in a hurry. Even thought it might be a lot of fun, don’t get in a hurry. Just go along in the agony. I’m going to tell you a little shady joke or two. You would be better put that on another tape. BG: All right. Can you tell me what a typical farm day was like? What time did you get up in the morning? CB: Sunrise or earlier. BG: And what was the first thing that you did? Try to remember one, a particular day and just 8 �tell me every detail about it. CB: Well, the first thing we would usually have breakfast. Mom would get up and cook breakfast. BG: What did she usually cook for breakfast? CB: Just whatever there was. Eggs, bacon, ham; we usually grew our own hogs and our beef. Just whatever there was. And turkey, once in a while we would have a stuffed turkey or something at Thanksgiving. But it’s just a plain country family. Get up and work after breakfast. Hoe corn; dig taters, whatever there was to do. BG: There’s always something to do. CB: There sure was. If nothing else we could on rainy days, we could get out there and straighten up old bent nails with a hammer. Straighten nails they call it, because you couldn’t afford new nails or anything. We made our own fence rails. We made our fences. We couldn’t afford buying barbed wire, it was called barbed wire. So the cattle and cows and everything they just roamed around through the pasture and the woods. And we would in the evening, our job as kids was to go out and round them up, bring them in for milling. Just plain country life. BG: What time would you come in to eat? CB: Before dark. We would usually be in by dark, after supper. Bread and milk for supper. It was wholesome, it was right good eating. And one time, I’ll never forget this. We had something different for breakfast. Usually it was cured meat, ham, and stuff like that, maybe salted bacon. But one morning, it was in wintertime, sort of cold. And mom left her old oven door open, this old range stove. Back in those days we used to have a cat hole in the door. Have you heard of that? A cat hole so the cat could come in or go out as he pleased. And some of them, before they got sort of wised up they would cut a little hole for the kittens. But by and by they found out the kittens could go through the same hole the old cat could, so they just cut one hole, a big one. Mom left the over door in a range cook stove. Two or three cats in there. It was cold, wintertime. They decided they would keep warn in that oven. Well, we got up way before daylight always every morning, and she closed the oven door and started the fire going. It was a wood burner, and by and by she heard this awful yowling. She started looking for the cats, they weren’t anywhere in there except in the oven and they were baking. That’s one time we came right near having a baked cat ham for breakfast! Well, mom opened the door. They left there so fast and both hit the cat hole at the same time and they jammed up in it and then they got in a fight. The hair was scorching plum in the woods! But we nearly had cat ham for breakfast that morning. 9 �BG: But they made it all right? CB: They pulled through it. They didn’t come back too soon; they stayed away a little while. BG: Wondering what these strange people are doing to them? CB: Well, this was just old country stuff you know. That’s all. Just like people used to live. BG: After you ate supper at night, did your family sit around together and have any sort of a family entertainment? Did anybody play a banjo or fiddle? CB: Well, there were not many musicians in our family. Two or three of the youngsters could kind of plunk on an old guitar. You know, just one at a time. But generally at that time of the day we were so tired we just went on to bed after supper, as soon as we could. Back in those days we had those old rope beds. They called it a corded bed. Instead of springs, we used just rope. BG: Were those pretty sturdy? Were the rope beds pretty sturdy? Did they hold the mattress firm? CB: Well our mattresses were “ticks” as they called it. Straw ticks. Filled with wheat straw. Well, by and by then they wore out we hat to put new straw in it. And the old bed, it could be any style shaped bed and ever so often those ropes had to be tightened up. My brother and I bunked together. One particular evening we got to bouncing around, the danged thing collapsed with us and the old headboard came over and caught. We were in a spot I’m telling you. Hollering, “Help! Help!” Mom finally had to go, she just died laughing, she had to come and lift the danged headboard off of us before we could move. I reckon we would have been there yet if somebody hadn’t moved. BG: What was the headboard made of? CB: Wood, it was all just old wood. BG: Were they all hand carved by somebody in the family? CB: Well mostly, yes. But there not so many factory made stuff back in those days. It was just you do it yourself you know. BG: Everything seemed to last a lot longer like that too. CB: We have an old one in here, but its modernized. It got springs and what not on it. Used to be in the family when I was a kid. You can see it after a while. BG: All right, great. I’d like to see it. 10 �CB: It can’t talk to you. If it could I’d touch a match to it I believe! BG: Don’t want it to tell any stories? Any old stories? CB: I don’t believe I would, don’t believe I would. Lib can tell you some stories. Now, any other questions Miss Barb? I’m just taking up a lot of your time? BG: Oh, I’m enjoying it. Its great. This is great. I want you to tell me some more stories, like the beds. I didn’t know about the rope beds. What was something else that is so different now than how it was? I don’t know like…rugs. Did your mother weave your own rugs? CB: She had some of those old wool cards they called it, you know…spiked things? And a spinning wheel and what not. I think couple of old spinning wheels as boys; we tore them up trying to make a sawmill out of it. Or tried to. If we had them today they would be worth something. But as kids, anything we could, we would tear up cloth and make a sawmill out of it. Just anything, kids, crazy. When the brains were passed around I reckon we just reached over and grabbed a bag of nuts, or fell out of the high chair or something! BG: Did your mother make all of your clothes? CB: Most of them. BG: What did she make them out of? What kind of material did she use? CB: They called it factory cloth back then. It was just plain old white cloth. The same kind of stuff they made covered wagons out of, the white stuff. BG: Canvas type cloth? Was it thick? CB: Well, it was made by a manufacturing company. It was thick and heavy. Well, that was the only cloth that I ever knew of, other than the overalls. Overall cloth could be bought then in the bolt. She would make overalls for us and shirts. And that factory cloth was the coldest underwear I believe. Even an Eskimo would have shivered if they put on a pair of drawers made out of that stuff! BG: Did they keep you very warm in the winter? CB: Well, after you finally got them warned up you would stay warm. They were all right, but golly they were cold to start with. BG: What about your shoes? Did somebody make your shoes? CB: Oh, we would get a pair a year. If we wore them out, we were out of luck until the next year. There were shoemakers back in those days, but my dad didn’t make any. His dad did, my 11 �old granddad. He used to make all the shoes and granny made all the clothes for all the young ones. BG: Did you know your grandparents very well? Did they live… CB: I remember my granddad real well. He died when I was about; I think I was eleven years old when he died. He was 90, somewhere in the nineties. I went to his funeral. BG: What was the funeral like? CB: It was country graveside; they just dug a hole and planted him in there. That was all there was to it back in those days. My daddy used to worry about that. He told Momma one time, he say, “We’ll, you know it would take a 100 dollars to bury the family.” There were seven kids and he said, “It will cost that to bury our whole family.” One hundred dollars, think of that. Well, an undertaker wouldn’t even sneeze at you these days for $100. BG: And then you would be buried anywhere you wanted. Is that correct? CB: Oh yes, family burying ground usually. Just anyplace on the hillside where it wouldn’t do to grow corn. Just plant them (people) there and they would stay. No questions asked. Nothing. BG: Did a lot of the neighbors come to the funerals? CB: Oh yes. Everybody for miles around. That was another one of those get together, like going to church on Sunday. But they were all there if you needed help. They would come and sit up with you and everything. That’s one think we don’t have that much anymore, very much. We still have friend s and neighbors, but back in those days you just had to do things. That was part of life, you know. BG: Showing each other. Kind of showing each other how you felt, helping them out when they were having hard times. CB: Oh, yes. It was just being neighbors and friends, that was all. We either stuck together or else we were gone. That was the way it was. Help each other. And sometimes I think its pretty nice way to live. Pretty good way to be friends and neighbors. Its still that way, but a little different…too speedy these days. Say, “Good morning” to somebody these mornings and then the next morning they say, “Oh, go to hell!” or something. Its just different than it used to be. Please excuse my language. BG: Oh, it’s quite all right. Well, you were talking a little while about the roads being just onelane roads. Do you remember when the first cars came to this area? CB: Oh, yes. They were those old Model T Henry Fords. You would crank one of the dammed things till the water boiled and maybe they would start. You know hand-cranked? Lord have 12 �mercy. The hardest work I have ever done in my life was trying to crank up one of those damned things. And then you would usually end up with a broken arm! The car would backfire if it ever did fire. That’s what this old Frenchman told me. He said, “I cranked the danged thing until the water boiled.” He was French Canadian. I said, “Dan, wouldn’t it fire at all?” “Hellfire, it wouldn’t even backfire!” he said. But that was your Model T’s. That was way back in the 1920s. BG: Did the coming of the car have much of a change on life? CB: Oh yes, it changed everything around. But it took a little while to do it. You know we still had plenty of chestnuts when they first came out. And beans and corn and there was no blight, there were no bugs. We didn’t have to spray, or dust or anything for our crop back then. But I reckon the Model T’s changed all that. They brought the bugs with them or something! BG: The pollution I guess it was. CB: Could be. I don’t know if this was so long ago. It’s hard to put everything together again, you know just at once. But sometimes I think maybe we would have been just as well off if we would have stayed with a horse and buggy. I can’t help but think of it that way. At least it suited me. And those were the good days if you didn’t mind sitting behind a horse. You could have a lot of fun on a date. Just as much fun as it is these days. If you didn’t mind sitting behind a horse. BG: What was courting like? CB: Courting? Just like it is now, I reckon. BG: Where did you go? What did you do? CB: Nowhere. You just go call on your date. You would sit at her house for an hour or two and then head for home. A little bit milder I reckon than what it is these days. I would say quieter. And you had to act respectable they called it back in those days. You had to be known in other words. If your date’s parents didn’t like you, you just didn’t date. That was all there was to it. You had to be a good neighbor and a good friend in order to have a date with whoever it was. BG: Did you have to ask the parent’s permission or did you ask the girl? CB: Well, that was usually understood. You knew if the parents didn’t approve of you, you wouldn’t be there regardless of what the girl said. But otherwise the courtship I would say was a little more modest back in those days. Less, what would you call it these days? permissiveness these days? 13 �No, that was unheard of back then. If a girl made a mistake, she was through. And they all, it seemed to be understood that way. They just very seldom ever made a mistake until they were married. And then of course, it couldn’t have been a mistake. End up in a divorce court, but very seldom. BG: Did they have many divorces back then? CB: Oh yes, the same then as now, but you were downgraded if you even though of a divorce. That was something unusual. People jus didn’t go for that. They just have to if they made a mistake. Well, they would sweat it out. Just tough it out. Rather, they were thinking of the kids. Family life in other words. Rather than degradation. BG: That sounds good. CB: Whatever it was. They just didn’t go for that back in those days. Nothing, they wanted to be on the “up and level” you know, keep going ahead. And it wasn’t a bad idea, I reckon. BG: Kept people closer together and family life more of a family. CB: Yeah, more of a close-knit family life. Rather than, I think these days that, I don’t know but it seems to me that the parents say, “Okay kids, just go ahead.” Without supervision or anything. Just to get rid of them, get them out of the house. “Go on, do what you want to do.” Well, they do. Especially if they have a sporty vehicle. Back in those days if we had a four-legged horse and a four-wheeled buggy we were, lucky. A buggy would be like a Cadillac today. BG: Were your parents very strict with you? Did you consider them to have been strict? CB: Well, they sure laid it on once in a while. I knew exactly where they were hitting too. BG: Is that what they would do for punishment? CB: Well, they would talk a little once in a while. But usually they were too dang busy trying to make a living that they didn’t have time to talk too much. But when they did decide to punish, they knew exactly where they were spanking. BG: What did they spank you with? CB: Oh, a paddle, broom handle, anything that was available. Just whatever was handy that would be it. Usually he palm of the hand. BG: It seemed to hurt the most I guess. 14 �CB: Well, like you said, I knew exactly where they were spanking. BG: Did your family dig roots too? CB: Dig roots? Oh yes, we used to dig ginseng. “Sang” we called it back then. S-A-N-G. Ginseng. That’s supposed to be a mysterious, great herb that the Chinese like so well. And then star root, and then we would also pull Galax. BG: Did the people use ginseng around here at all or did they just sell it? CB: I don’t know of anyone that used it, juts just one of those things. Maybe a few people do. I’ve found it. I’ve dug it up from time to time, but I don’t see that anymore. BG: I’ve got a few plants at my house. Got about four of them. Only one is getting a little berry on it. What do you do with the very if you want to say, increase your crop? CB: The seeds? BG: Yes. Are there seeds inside the little berries? CB: Yes, like holly berries. Same color exact. The ginseng is a pretty plant really, its just three leaves. And the seed part after they grow to a certain age, the seed comes up in the middle of he pant with al little flower, a little group of red berries. Those are the seeds. BG: Do you replant each of the red berries or is there just one, or several of them? CB: No, there are several in a little pod right in the center of this parent plant. And the birds sometimes plant them, or you can if you want to. And if a mole or something doesn’t get them, it’ll come up. My daddy used to have three or four old big hollow chestnut logs full of red soil that he grew ginseng in where we used to live. But the cultivated kind never did do quite so good as the just out in it s natural state in the woods. Well, the time it rained for three days, my dad’s old ginseng patch washed away. Those old hollow chestnut logs, they went down the river putting him out of the business. He said, “Well, I’ll just leave them where they are from now on, out in the woods in the cold.” Back in 1916, it rained so much that is caused a flood. Nearly washed everything thing down. The word got passed around, back at this time there were no telephones, but the word spread from one place to another. This old timer, our country church preacher got people together to pray at our little church for this rain to quit. He said, “Pray for the flood to stop.” It was really a rip-snorting flood! BG: Was it worse than the flood of 1940? 15 �CB: Yes, it was. I remember that one too. But in ’16 it was a little rougher. Well, it was rolling boulders half as big as this house down the little creek here. It just shook the earth, like an earthquake. Most of the foot-logs washed away. Finally one of the brothers said, “Well, looked like no more of us are going to get here. We might as well go in and start praying.” Then the preacher said, “We can go in and pray, that’s all right, but it ain’t going to do a bit of good as long as those clouds are coming from the north and from the southeast. It wouldn’t do a bit of good!” BG: Well, did you say it rained for three days? CB: Three days and nights. There was no let up to it. I was beginning to wonder what old Noah felt like. BG: Who felt like? CB: Old Noah, you know, the ark. I was beginning to look for a little mountain to climb onto. But the branches were all so full of water. I couldn’t think, or get to the mountain. One little branch of the creek above the house where we lived, it dried up every summer and it got so deep I couldn’t even wade. I was 19 years old and couldn’t wade in the creek because there was too much water in it. Rock, driftwood, everything coming down. BG: Did that hurt a lot of people for that year? Was it in the springtime? CB: It washed a lot of crops away. Corn and wheat, ruining so many farms down there in the valleys. A lot of the farmers they were do discouraged. They would have sold out if they could have found anyone to buy their place. But by and by they came accustomed to the change. Where rich level fields had been, it was nothing but rock. That creek was running everywhere. No sir, the bottomland as they called it. Nothing but rock. End of interview 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Bolick, Charles (interviewee) Greenberg, Barbara (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26, Making moonshine Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles Bolick, June 21, 1974 Subject The topic of the resource Bolick, Charles (1891-)--Interviews Farm life--North Carolina--Caldwell County--History--20th century Distilling, Illicit--North Carolina--Caldwell County Caldwell County (N.C.)--History--20th century Caldwell County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Description An account of the resource “Charles” Wesley Bolick was born on August 15, 1897 in the Mulberry Valley community of Caldwell County about ten miles from Blowing Rock, North Carolina. His parents were Emanuel (b. October 24, 1852 - d. August 16, 1926) and Mary Vienna Sherrill Bolick (b. April 1860 – d. August 27, 1934). He had four siblings and was married to Elizabeth “Libby” Gomer Bolick (b. October 7, 1881 – d. January 16, 1983). Charles Bolick died on April 29, 1996 at the age of 98. During the interview he talks about his parents and siblings, selling whiskey, making apple brandy, living off the land and making everything the family needed. He reflects on the Depression, and attending school. He also discusses making molasses, sleeping on a rope bed, courting, digging for ginseng, and the floods of 1916 and 1940. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bolick, Charles Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 21-Jun-74 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 16 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 14:08:22 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Caldwell County (N.C) 1916 flood 1940 flood Blowing Rock Caldwell County car chestnuts cooking courting Depression farming herbs molasses moonshine Watauga County N.C. Whiskey https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/11d2a7d693590e36fc8e3964164d2bda.mp3 d5fc2a65acdc244f09c9aa240c17ab22 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5529024b8af3927f0db09abbf5db45ec.pdf 1ff1ba879a7ad11aa89876d06d82abc2 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 26/27 Interviewee: Bill Brinkley Interviewer: Lester Harmon 1973 February 8 Introduction Snow is falling outside and we have just settled down in the Brinkley home after a delicious dinner. Bill’s home with his wife Rosemary reflects his love for people and nature. Family portraits flank the walls. Bill, over six feet tall, is a very stalwart man. His hands tell the story of a life of hard work, and his eyes speak to you in an honest, cheerful way. He is very attentive to my questioning and is very interested in our oral history project. A very congenial and intelligent man, Bill has lived in Elk Park all of his life and runs a hardware store there. He has much to offer about the Elk Park and Avery County area and is very genuine and entertaining in is delivery. This is an interview with Bill Brinkley in Elk Park, North Carolina on February 8, 1973 for the Appalachian Oral History Project by Lester Harmon. LH: Lester Harmon BB: Bill Brinkley Pam: Pam ?? Mrs. Brinkley: Mrs. Brinkley LH: Would you give us the name and the birthplace of your parents and the number and names of your brothers and sister and their ages? BB: My father was D.G. Brinkley, and he was born in Grassy Creek, which is near Spruce Pine. He was born about 1885. My mother was a Carroll. She was born in Chester, South Carolina about 1888 or 1889. My oldest brother lives in California named Edwin who is about 70 years of age. My father was 91 when he died and he’s been dead about two years. My mother is still living; she’s 88 and living in Florida with my sister. There were six children; the eldest was Edwin. My oldest sister is about 65 and she lives in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. My next brother is about 63 and lives in Los Angeles, California. The next child in line is another sister who is 60 years old; she lives in Los Angeles. Then my brother and myself are twins. We’re 56, born in 1917 in two different months – June and July. LH: Is there a story behind that? BB: We were actually born in June, but at that time of course the roads were very bad, and 1 �there was not much transportation. The doctor that brought us in, when he listed our birth in the courthouse in Newland, why, he must have gone over in August. He said, “Well, they were born the 27th of the last month.” So I have two birthdays. That’s the reason I get so many presents! LH: When did you come to Elk Park? BB: I was born here. LH: Can you talk a little bit about what life was like as a child? Did you live on a farm and grow your own food? Do you remember any scarce periods? LH: Well, as a child no. That was before the Depression. My father was a merchant, and we did raise right much food that we ate, but that was customary with everybody in this section, of course. I had a very good childhood. I had my twin brother, always had someone to play with, of course. So, as I remember, I had a very happy childhood. We didn’t realize any Depression until about 1929-30. It was about 1929 when the Depression started. It wasn’t too bad in this mountain area because people, most everyone had land, and they did raise most of their food. Maybe not a big variety, but a sufficient amount of food. Our worst period was between 1929-33. At that time, there was scarcely any money, and of course, we had very little clothing, except about one change, and that was it. But by 1935, we had about come out of the Depression, this whole area really. Although the WPA lasted until about almost up until World War Two started. The lady next door to us, she was a great hand at canning, especially peaches. She had several hundred cans of peaches, and she canned them all in usually ½ gallon jars, fruit jars, or quart fruit jars. She dated them all, and she had some that were 14-15 years old. She didn’t have any children, so it was just her and her husband and she canned peaches every year, no matter what. I’m sure when they both died; they still had some peaches in that basement. Pam: Would you tell him about the Sunday suit you had? BB: Well, the first suits we got were about 1933 or 1934; we each got a suit of clothes. My brother and I put it on to go to Sunday school. We got up the road a ways, at the time we lived across the street from here, and we looked at each other. One, I don’t remember which, but one called the other one and said, “Well, you look like a Philadelphia layer.” We just turned around and came back in, and took the suit off. We put on our overalls and went to Sunday school. That same suit after I had it just a short while. I was playing on Sunday, and it got warm, so I took it off and laid it across this fence and forgot it. Of course, we didn’t remember it, because we didn’t wear the suit except on Sundays, and it was on a Sunday when I took the thing off and hung it on the fence. 2 �The following Sunday, I couldn’t find the suit. I couldn’t remember where in the world that coat was, and it was during a rainy period. Oh, two or three weeks later, I happened to look up where we played that Sunday, just glanced up that way, and I saw the coat hanging on the fence. And of course it was ruined, so I didn’t have another suit until about 1937, somewhere along there. But, as I say, by that time, the Depression was over with as far as we were concerned, and most people in this section. I really don’t think the mountain people felt the Depression nearly as hard as the people in this section. We have been classified as a poverty area along with the Kentucky group and so on, but in my opinion, Avery County is really not a poverty stricken country, never has been. LH: You were saying that you were living here at the start of the Depression, and were all the kids in the family here, or did any of them leave home during the Depression, or did they leave home because of the Depression? BB: No, my two eldest brothers left during the Depression, but not because of it. They went west to seek their fortunes, and they’re still out there, living in California. But it wasn’t the Depression that made them leave. The oldest one I think left before the Depression even started. LH: Your father and your mother, did the Depression have a big effect on their jobs, or did they change the jobs during the Depression, or were you working during the Depression at all anywhere? BB: Well, my father had a store and of course my mother never worked. I graduated from high school in 1934 at the age of 16, and I went to work in that store soon as we were out of high school. Of course the Depression was practically over then, well it wasn’t over, but times were certainly better by 1934. But we didn’t have enough money to go to college, and we did have to go to work. LH: You’re talking now a little bit about school. Can you tell me if your parents went to high school or if they went to college? Tell me about your brothers, sisters, and about your school life and some of the teachers or schoolmates that you had and how the schools have changed around here in Avery County and Elk Park since you were there? BB: My father went to college two years at N.C. State. My brother went to Davidson, my oldest brother. He was going to be a minister but he changed his mind on that. None of the other children ever went to college. LH: Do you remember anything about how the schools were when you were in grammar school and some of the good times that you had and what the schools were like then? BB: Well, I remember of course, the first day that I ever went to school and remember my first teacher. Her name was Miss Bean. Back then it wasn’t the first grade, your first grade was called the “Primer,” and that was because of a book that you had was named The Primer. That’s 3 �why you never went to the first grade, you went to the Primer. Then you went to the second grade. The schools were very good, but by the time we were in fourth grade, they combined two grades, the fourth and the fifth. We had the same teacher for the fourth grade and the fifth in the same classroom. She’d teach the fourth half a day and the fifth grade half a day, and the other half of course was supposed to study. Then, that grammar school was here in Elk Park, and in the sixth grade we were transferred to the high school building. It started, you weren’t in high school, but the sixth grade was taught in the high school, and the seventh grade, and then your freshman year in high school started in the eighth grade, and of course we only had four years of high school, so you were out at the eleventh grade. LH: You graduated from Cranberry School? BB: Yes, Cranberry High School. LH: The building looks a lot like the one that my dad went to school in. I think he’s 59 now, but he graduated from a school that looked a whole lot like the Cranberry School out here. BB: Well, we had very good teachers in high school, I thought, and I still think so – looking back. We had an excellent English teacher. If I learned all that she tried to teach us, I would know a lot more English I’m sure. But her primary interest thought as in literature rather than English grammar. But she was an excellent teacher, and I had her for four straight years. But she was very hard, and a lot of students tried to get another teacher if they possibly could. So her classes were never too large; really we learned more in her class, I thought, than the other ones that went to the English teacher. LH: You say that when you got out of high school, you and Bob went to work at the store. After the store, what did you do? Or have you stayed with the store up to now? BB: I’ve never done anything else other than extra things that I’ve gotten into, but primarily I have never left the store. LH: How has the store changed since back then? A whole lot? BB: Of course we started in an old building, but we built a new store that we’re in now. We built in 1940, just before World War Two started, and since that time, I built on it in 1957, built an addition on the east end and built the post office on the west end. But the building is really comparatively new although it was, part of it was built in 1940, but it’s a solid brick building. The old store was a wooden structure, very commonplace with what you would think of as an old country store. 4 �LH: Wasn’t it a good grocery store then? BB: We had general merchandise. We had groceries, dry goods, shoes, a little hardware, practically anything you would want. LH: It’s mainly hardware now, isn’t it? BB: Yes. LH: What kind of churches were in the Elk Park area or in the Avery County area then? What was the main denomination of most of the people around here? What were the churches like and how much have they changed since then? BB: They haven’t changed a great lot. I’m Methodist, my father was Methodist, and my mother was Baptist, but we all went to the Methodist Church, and it’s the same church we’re going to today. Of course the first church burned; then it was rebuilt and remodeled. The Baptist Church, of course they have done quite a bit of remodeling on it, but it’s in the same place and primarily the same church as when I was a boy. And the Christian Church here was an old wooden structure when I was a boy; it was torn down and has been a new church built since that time, but the church – the Christian Church is approximately 65 years old. The first structure is primarily the same because it was a brick building, and it burned, and it just burned the inside out and the roof off of it. It was built back just like it was except a little more modern. LH: Did a lot of people pitch in and help build the church, a lot of community people? BB: Yes, it was built and rebuilt entirely by people, by members of the Methodist Church and some of the friends of Methodists from Memphis. There was no outside help at all except from the Memphis Conference did, I think – maybe gave us 1,000 dollars, something like that. The church burned about 1952 and cost about 20,000 dollars to rebuild. LH: Is that Elk Park Methodist Church (pointing)? BB: Yes. LH: How did Elk Park get its name? Do you know? BB: Well, I’ve asked that question to many an old timer and I don’t believe any of them really ever knew. But the only tale that I have ever heard was that they claimed that the elk, which was the deer of course, because we had no elk, never had, but the deer well, this was one of their stopping places. You know deer migrate and they usually run within a certain area, and they were supposed to have had a place here that they stayed for a time, and that’s why they named it Elk River. 5 �I really don’t know whether the deer had anything to do with the naming of all this Elk and Banner Elk. I do know that Banner Elk was named particularly from, mainly from the fact that it was – everyone that lived there practically were Banners; they settled the town. But Elk Park at the turn of the century was the hub of this whole section. The railroad came here. Elk Park was about three times as large as it is now. They had the railroad, which was narrow gauge of course, coming to the Cranberry mines, which was mining iron ore. The town had a depot, had three hotels, it had a bank, had a sawmill. It had three livery stables. A livery stable is where people went to rent a horse and a buggy or a horse. There were three large ones so everybody came into this area stayed in Elk Park, and the community grew out of here to the various other places in the area. Salesmen and so on came from Johnson City from wholesale places that came up here selling goods. They all rode that train to Elk Park. LH: What train was that? BB: Tweetsie. LH: Tweetsie, that’s in Boone now right? BB: That’s right. Narrow gauge and it ran to Boone, but we had a flood in 1940, either 1940 or ’41 and the flood washed the railroad out, practically all of it out from Cranberry to Boone. And it was beginning to be a losing proposition, so they were allowed to not build it back. Got certain laws and regulations about busses and trains; you can’t just stop them whether you lose money or not. You’ve got to carry on. So they came on the Cranberry for a number of years until 1950. I believe the last run that Tweetsie made was about 1952, and they were allowed to cut the railroad out. Of course it was really more expensive to get anything in on the railroad by that time than it was by truck, because it being a narrow gauge, everything had to be transferred. It came by rail, and it was transferred to Johnson City to this narrow gauge train. We sold sheet rock and bought it by the carload out of New York and it costs us less freight to get it from New York to Elizabethton or Johnson City than it did by rail from Johnson City on up here, which is only 30 miles away. Of course the mines were operating too at that time. LH: Mines around here? BB: The Cranberry iron ore mines that was only two miles from here. One of the biggest belts of ore in this selection known anywhere, magnetized ore that is. It is magnetized, but it’s a low grade, and that’s why they are operating. The cost is no greater to get out; in fact, it’s less because granite is so strong. 6 �They didn’t have timber in any of the mines; they just left a pillar of granite every so often. They didn’t have to timber the mine with wood, so it wasn’t any more expensive to get out but the grade was so low, the ore grades were so low that it got to where it wasn’t profitable to operate. Some of the mines closed sown about 1930, somewhere long then. LH: How did Elk Park start? I mean, who first settled here and was it because of mining that the town got started? BB: No I think…deer hunting, elk hunting. I don’t know where he went (telling a story of a local old timer), maybe to Montana or somewhere northwest, and he was telling this group of people when he got back about what all he had seen, how it was way out west, what a big country it was and said, “The forest was so thick,” he said, “You can’t even walk through them, the trees were so close together.” And he said, “Elk,” he said, “You’ve never seen such elk. They had horns this large” (used his hands as wide as he could spread them). Finally somebody stopped him in the middle of the story, and they laughed and said, “If the elk had horns that big, how did they get through those trees that were so close together?” This gentleman didn’t even slow down on his story, he just looked at the man and said, “That’s their story.” This was typical of the type of stories that he told, and I guess if somebody kept a record of all of them, it would really had been a best seller. He certainly was surely full of them. Oh, he told another story about hunting. He was a great hunter and said he saw twelve turkeys sitting on a limb and he said, “I checked my gun and only had one cartridge. I jerked up my gun and got all twelve of those turkeys.” Somebody said, “Well, how in the world (laughing) did you get all those turkeys with just one shell?” He said, “Well, I’ll tell you. I shot and split the limb and when the limb went together caught all the turkeys’ toes and held them there until I got up and killed them.” But he was full of stories. We have had lots of characters like that. LH: How about some of the community leaders or decision makers, like the rulers of the town and everything over the years? BB: Well, I have been mayor of Elk Park myself and an Alderman two or three times. I had the distinction of running for mayor against the only woman that ever ran for mayor. Of course she campaigned like everything and I didn’t campaign, but I still won. She is to my knowledge, the only woman who ever ran for mayor of the town of Elk Park. LH: How long ago was that? BB: That was in 1939 or ’40, about then. We’ve had some good men, had a Harmon by the way, good community leader. He taught Sunday school and taught the men’s class for about 15 or 18 years in the Methodist church. I was superintendent at the time, the superintendent for 17 years, of the Sunday school up until the time I went into the army in fact. But Mr. Harmon, he became a U.S. Marshall under the Eisenhower administration, and he had some sort of illness 7 �and died. He wasn’t too old of a man when he died, but he had left Elk Park of course when he became a U.S. Marshall and moved to Asheville. LH: You have said that Elk Park used to be bigger than it is now. Has the population decreased that much, or just the general size? BB: Well, Avery County has grown less in population until the last three or four years. Now, what happened there was, of course, a lack of jobs, and a lot of people who moved away to get these jobs during the war, stayed so the population went down from 14,000 to 10,000 at one time, and it was because of lack of jobs. There was no industry to amount to anything for a number of years, the mines had closed. After the war, they started coming back a little bit, but not too much, but then “tourism” has done more to increase the population – to get the population back to closer to the point where it was, than anything else. People who are retired want to come to the mountains to lived because they know this I the finest place on earth. A lot of people like to come here and there’s been a good deal of the land that’s been sold to outsiders who want to come here, and will be here for the rest of their lives. LH: Has the tourist industry had, in your opinion, a bad effect on the natural beauty of the mountains around? I know like Beech Mountain and some of the bigger places used to be, well nothing there and a lot of people feel like it has done more harm than good. I was wondering how you feel about that? BB: Well, of course there are several thoughts on that. The county as a whole felt like tourism was the only way out of growing. Naturally they wanted to grow and they hated to see the population decreased. So they tried to make it as attractive as possible for the tourists. But it was slow coming for the simple reason there were no accommodations and so people didn’t come because of that. And then on the other hand, people are afraid to build accommodations because the tourists aren’t coming. But it made a vicious cycle out of it. These resort areas such as Beech Mountain and Sugar, ski places, some people resent them because for one thing, it has made land go sky-high, and it’s gotten where it’s hard to even buy a piece of land in Avery County unless you pay what I would say, an exorbitant price for it. Really, in that respect it’s (tourist industry) hurt. Of course, there’s not, well, there a few fairly big landholders in the county, but the land isn’t for sale. Meade Corporation owns about 4,500 acres and they sell it sometimes. They are the biggest owners. LH: Who is that? BB: Meade Corporation – they are a paper company of course, and they recently sold 40,000 acres in Jackson County. That’s been a big, well, quite a bit in the paper about that because they didn’t sell it to the Forest Service, but they offered it to the Forest Service and they said they would like to have it but they didn’t have the money. Then Meade was ready to sell and 8 �these developers from Florida bought it and gave them five million (dollars) for it. And now, of course everybody over there’s hollering that they really didn’t give the government a chance to buy it – that’s neither here nor there, I don’t know how much truth there is to it, but I do know from personal experience that the government is tied up in too much red tape when it comes to something that they would like to have, that they don’t do anything about it until it’s too late. I had 500 acres in the middle of crops that they owned all around and they wanted to buy it. They never did buy it, and finally I sold it to another party. So, I expect that’s about what happened to Meade. BB: At the beginning of the Depression, for this area, when the government decided – I don’t know; they had been giving help elsewhere, but the way it was started here, the help situation from the government, they have you a little piece of paper that said that you were entitled to so much food money and you took that to the store. We took it just like it was a five dollar bill. For instance, this allowed you to buy that much food, or whatever it said. And of course the amount was given accordingly to the number in the family. Now this was a monthly thing. LH: Rations? BB: No, it was – I forget what they called it, but anyway – it was the largest amount that I can remember anybody getting was one man that had 13 children, he got $21 per month. He spent half of that for tobacco and snuff, his wife dipped snuff and he chewed tobacco. And he spent the rest of it for essentials that they could not raise. And they existed on it; nobody actually thought they were poor, poverty stricken, or anything else. So it just shows you that really – well, there was no great need for money. That man raised practically everything that they are, with few exceptions, but that $21 helped out with him using half of it for snuff and tobacco! LH: How many were in the family again? BB: Thirteen! He had 11 children plus himself and his wife. Then at a later date, I knew a man that had 19 children and he and his wife, and he was never on welfare and never had a job. He pulled moss, dug herbs, and that sort of stuff for a living and yet he raised 19 children. LH: You said welfare – are you talking about the… BB: I’m talking about a later date, such as when the welfare program started after the war. What we called the welfare program that started after World War Two. And this man was never on welfare, and yet he never had a job working for anybody unless he just wanted to. He made his living out of…well, off the land. Mrs. Brinkley: Did they pick Galax? BB: Yes, Galax and moss and dug ginseng and crabapple roots and so on. Ginseng is a root 9 �that’s very valuable, even to this day. The Chinese use it extensively for medical reasons of some reason or other, but that’s where it was all sent from, but it’s always brought anywhere from $15 to $40 per pound, and of course it’s very scare. But I had known people that found patches of it where they’ve gotten out 800-900 pounds and made themselves quite a bit of money. But that hasn’t happened but very few times. LH: Do you remember the change in the schools or the churches or the country stores around? Do you remember any great changes in those during the Depression? Working in the store (Brinkley Hardware Store), you probably saw some changes in the store there? BB: Well, I don’t quite know what you mean by change. We saw, naturally business get better as people got more money, and as the Depression ended. Of course, the war naturally created – between the WPA and the war – they created many more jobs and there was money around. So, the volume of business gained constantly. Pam: What about the packaging in the store? How has that changed? BB: Well now, that’s changed completely in my day. When I first started working in the store nothing was packaged. Sugar came in 100 pound bags and we poured it in a barrel. People never bought more than five pounds, something like that. Most people bought a quarter’s worth, which was about five cents per pound. You had to weigh it out on a scale and tie it up in a bag. Lard or shortening came in a 100 pound drum. You opened the top of it and there was a little paddle that you took, you put the lard in a tray and sold whatever the amount they wanted from a nickel to 50 cents worth. Flour was not sold in anything less than 25 pound bags. Meal was not sold in anything less than 25 pound bags. Self-rising was unheard of. Peanut butter came in a 25 pound can; you sold it similar to lard, in a little wax tray. Bologna didn’t have to be refrigerated; you had no refrigeration to start with. Rather it came in a white cloth sack and it would keep, we hung it from the ceiling. Bananas we bought by the stalk. Sold two, three, or four – they wouldn’t ask you for pounds. They would say give me five bananas or a half dozen bananas, or whatever. Pam: Do you want to tell him about the time when you stuffed your banana – was it a banana? BB: It was a banana yes, that’s a – I don’t know whether it’ll help his story or not. I was – that was before I was out of school of course, and my daddy had the store and we would go in there in the afternoons and try to steal us a little piece of candy or something. We didn’t have to steal it, he was very liberal – he would let us have it, but you would ask and he’d say how much you could have. So we got in this stalk of bananas, which was very unusually in that day and time. The stalk was as green as a gourd. But we wanted one so badly, he finally let us have one and I decided that I’d get me another one, and I didn’t ask for it. About that time I got it about half eaten, my daddy came around the counter. I just stuck all of it in my mouth and swallowed it, 10 �and that night I nearly died of a stomach ache. But, we finally had oranges and that sort of stuff at Christmastime – in the store. There was really nothing packaged. LH: Did you have the pickle barrel and the cracker barrel? BB: Had a pickle barrel, pigs feet – pickled pigs feet. Sold fish from a big barrel, salted fish that you could keep from now on. People had to take them home and soak them all night, and they usually ate them for breakfast. By the way, the main reason for that is they had to soak that salt out of them before they could eat them. They would soak the fish during the night and it was just a breakfast food to the mountain people at that time. Nuts, we never sold any nuts except at Christmastime. Oranges, tangerines, and all that – just Christmastime. Saw very few toys and we had a tin can for a car – played around with the bank and make a road out of it with a tin can, an empty tin can. Pam: What about buckeyes? BB: Buckeyes were very similar I appearance to a chestnut, except much larger. And a lot of people had the superstition that to carry a buckeye was lucky. This one boy was very superstitious. He carried a buckeye for about 20 years that I know of. But, he got in trouble one time, and he was telling the story later, he said, “I promised the great Lord and this buckeye that if I get out of this, I’ll never do it again!” You were talking about calamities…I guess the biggest calamity that ever hit this section of the country was the blight of the chestnut trees. I don’t know really what extent it was here, but I think the chestnut tree was about the majority of the types of trees all through the Appalachian area, probably and maybe all the way to the West Coast, I don’t know. LH: A lot of barns were built from wormy chestnut weren’t they? BB: That’s right. And now its worth anywhere from 1,000 dollars to 1,200 per thousand board feet. I bought it for $15 a 1,000 board feet, sawed and planed - $15. But the chestnut tree was one of the biggest losses we ever had in many ways. The loss of the timber, the loss of the chestnuts to the animals of course, the squirrel, deer. Practically all of the animals ate chestnuts and by losing the chestnuts, why, it badly affected the wildlife of this area. But, you really didn’t realize how many chestnut trees there were until they all died. I can remember going from here to Blowing Rock on what we call the Yonahlossee Trail, which is still there any is part of the (Blue Ridge) Parkway now. You can see a great distance along that road, up the mountain and below the mountain, and before the leaves would come out, or just when they would begin to come out, you could see all these dead chestnut trees. I’d say ¾ of the trees were chestnut trees. But they would stand out at that period you see, and you could tell that they were dead chestnuts. It was a great loss to the whole country. 11 �LH: What was it that caused the… BB: The blight? LH: Yes, the blight. BB: Somebody brought in a chestnut tree either from China or Japan, and it was diseased, and it gave the blight to the chestnuts in North America, and that blight spread. They never found anyway to stop it, and it killed every chestnut tree in the United States. LH: They can’t grow them anymore, can they? BB: Well, they have found one that’s blight-proof, but it’s really, its what they call an English Chestnut. It’s much larger than our chestnuts. You’ve got to plant it and take care of it, like you’re taking care of an apple tree or something. Pam: Well, what kind is it that the Penland’s have? They have one in their yard; we eat chestnuts from it all the time. I think it’s a Japanese kind or something? BB: Well, it probably one of those English Chestnut trees – they call them “Horse Chestnuts” because they’re larger. They are really not a true chestnut as far as the chestnut we had. I’ve never heard of anybody cutting the timber from them, because we don’t have that many of them. The chestnut timber now, if you can find any that were sound, some were found even years afterward, and they were able to cut a lot of the logs found on the ground or still standing and cut the sound wood out of them. It brought big money because it was scarce wood, and everybody like those worm holes. LH: My sister and her husband got a wormy chestnut bookcase for a wedding present and they said that was the best present they got. It’s really beautiful. BB: But, the funny thing about the chestnut tree. If it was cut but not soon enough, it got shaky and a shaky chestnut lumber was worthless and still is even today. If you had it, it would be worthless. In fact, a man offered me 40,000 board feet about five or six years ago. I had a wood working shop and we had a lot of demand for things made of chestnut lumber that was cut, so he offered the 40,000 feet for $35 a thousand feet. I didn’t know that much about it. So, I went to somebody that did and asked, “Out of 40,000 feet, surely to goodness you could cut enough good out of it to get five or six thousand feet,” and he said, “No, if it’s shaky chestnut, you cannot get anything good out of it. If you had ten million feet of it, you couldn’t.” So I didn’t buy it. About all you can use it for is for sheathing for a barn or something like that, but it won’t last anytime you see. Once it’s exposed to the weather, it doesn’t last. 12 �LH: Comparing childhood during the Depression days, when you were growing up – what did you like best about those days? What were some of your best days? What do you like best about living now and what did you not like back then? BB: It would take a long time to answer all than, but quickly: The Depression didn’t bother us because I was too young, and we were in a business where I guess, we made money faster than the common run of people. So I had a car when I was 17 and have had one ever since. The first car I ever bought was the only one I was ever able to pay cash for, I think. I guess that I was better off between 1935-45, than I ever have been since! LH: I guess that’s something you don’t like about now, the way everything cost a lot more. BB: Well, it’s really harder to accumulate anything or make any money this day and time than it was in those days because of high taxes and the high cost of living. Bought insurance back when it was cheap and had the money for it. If you had the money today it would be worth well, what is it worth now? A dollar is worth about 40 cents. I doubt that it’s even worth that. The government’s index claims that stuff has risen so much, that I can remember the first car that I bought in 1935, brand new Deluxe Ford cost 600 dollars. And of course, everything is not that much difference of course, but that is an example – that’s why I said with a little money back in those days, you could really have yourself a ball, because it didn’t cost anything. Go on vacation, I’ve gone to Florida and spent less than $200, now it will cost you that and a little more than that to buy a plane ticket there and back. LH: Or just to stay down there a while in a motel. Forty dollars a day in a motel for practically all of them. What do you like best, if you can pinpoint anything, about today’s lifestyle, the way things are now? BB: Well, I like the improvements man has made, certainly. A lot of people say the “Good old days.” When I say that, I’m talking about the fact that stuff didn’t cost much. But I still appreciate the fact that we have all these “luxuries” like dishwashers that do a lot for the housewife. But the trash-smasher, the dishwasher, the refrigerator, -- that’s one thing we’ve always had, so that doesn’t mean as much to me, but I do – from the fact that until after the war, there was more than 10% of the people outside of the town that had lights. Everywhere now rural districts have lights, and that is to be a very, certainly a luxury for them. Bound to be, and that was the first thing that everybody did after the war that could get them of course, these other things could come in such as washing machines, refrigerators, whatever. But I do like the fact that man has made all the progress he has. I’ve certainly seen more progress made in my lifetime than was made for previous, well, some people say millions of years. Some people say 10,000 years, or whatever. But that’s up to the individual to think what he wants to about it, but I think more progress has been made in the past 25 years than ever 13 �has been made before. And maybe in the next 25 years it will be – it’s hard to imagine, but maybe just as much or more. LH: If you could change something right now, what would you change? BB: Well, that’s hard to keep from thinking of personal matters, and that wouldn’t have anything to do with what you’re asking. 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Brinkley, Bill (interviewee) Harmon, Lester (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:01, Buckeye luck charm Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill C. Brinkley, February 3, 1973 Description An account of the resource Bill Carroll Brinkley was born on July 27, 1917 in Elk Park in Avery County to David Brinkley (b. July 24, 1879 – January 1971) who was from Grassy Creek near Spruce Pine, North Carolina and Carroll Ivey Brinkley who was from Chester, South Carolina, and he had five siblings including a twin brother. He graduated from Cranberry High School in 1934 then started working in the family hardware store and served briefly in the U.S. Army enlisting in February 1945. He died on March 20, 2001 at the age of 83. During the interview he reflects on a happy childhood during the Depression partly because everyone was self­‐sufficient and raised their own food. He provides several anecdotal stories about his education, the family owned Brinkley Hardware Store in Elk Park, religion and local churches, the origin Elk Park, the railroad, the Cranberry mine, and tourism in Avery County. He also discusses collecting herbs and rationing during the Depression and relates stories about panthers and the Brown Mountain Lights. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brinkley, Bill Carroll Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3-Feb-73 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 14:11:05 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Elk Park (N.C.) Avery County (N.C) Subject The topic of the resource Brinkley, Bill Carroll--Interviews Avery County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Depressions--1929--North Carolina--Avery County--Interviews Farm life--North Carolina--Avery County--Interviews Christian life--North Carolina--Avery County--Interviews almanac Avery County car Depression Education Elk Park farming folklore religion tourism https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/97152d942f5a0d9f9963f14014b0343d.mp3 609256f96d7501078431a09bdec71d14 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cb26a23146691a2df3890fb004e59b8c.pdf 6126ffc7836c5502694131982ebedb0b PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Appalachian State University • Collection 111, Tape 19 Interviewee: Mr. and Mrs. Arlie Moretz Interviewer: Karen Weaver 5 February 1973 KW: Karen Weaver AM: Arlie Moretz MM: Mrs. Moretz KW: This is an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Arlie Moretz for the Appalachian State University Oral History Project by Karen Weaver at Boone on February 5, 1973. First of all we’d like to hear a little bit about your family life, when you were growing up as children. Where were you born? MM: I was born over here at Silverstone. It’s in Watauga County. KW: How many children were in your family? MM: Eight. KW: What about you Mr. Moretz, how many were in your family? AM: Ten, nine grew to maturity. The first one died in infancy. I was born near the Tater Hill Lake on the Meat Camp side. Granddaddy entered the land on which I was born; nobody had lived there except the wild creatures until daddy moved in there and cleared an area. Five of the children were born there. We walked three miles to school each day. I started at five and hiked six miles away round-trip. We went on the Meat Camp side now, not back near the Tater Hill Lake area, but in the other direction east of the Tater Hill. Very, very rugged mountainous terrain and we were poor, very poor. I can remember going with mother to gather roots and herbs so that we might have clothes and most of all (our clothes) were made with needle and thread, she didn’t have a sewing machine, mostly homemade clothes. Little tiny shirts and pants she ordered from a place called Proximity Mercantile Company in Greensboro. I didn’t know where Greensboro was in those days. KW: Did you grow most of your food and have a farm? AM: Yes, it was country. We grew our food practically all of it, everything. MM: We raised our own corn and beans and potatoes, and we raised some sheep and cattle 1 �and had horses, mules, and hogs – had our own meat. We walked to school about a mile. AM: Daddy was known for his hogs, he grew an enormous lot of tem, everybody in the country came to dad to but hogs. Not only did we have meat, we had cane “lasses.” Now, I didn’t say molasses, I said “lasses,” and we grew fields of buckwheat and we had to have pancakes made with the buckwheat. I remember how we cut it with a cradle, that’s a scythe sort of machine; we thrashed it with a flail. I called it a frail, and I remember how daddy made those things with a hickory spout, about as big around as your arm and beat it with a pole axe, the back of it, until it was limber. Wailed the daylight out of it that the grain and separate it from the straw and we didn’t have the windmill with which to clear out the trash and chaff, we borrowed one. We would take it home on a little sled or wagon and use it to clean up the grain. We not only used the buckwheat for pancakes, but it was ground and given to animals to eat too. We called it “chop,” it was ground grain. KW: What about your schooling, how much did you and your parents have? AM: Granddaddy was a highly educated man, he was a minister. Great grandfather came to the county, one of the first to move into the county and he was married twice and had 25 children. I know where he is buried, I helped select it. Myrtle and I together helped pick a gravestone and helped do the inscription on it. It’s near my original home in Green Valley on the Meat Camp. KW: What was his name? AM: His name was Jonathan Moretz. My grandfather was one of his children. He was a welleducated man, but daddy wasn’t. I think he went about to the third grade. I’ve heard him say. Mother was something like a seventh grader. And I don’t know how much education you would say I had. I haven’t done anything for the last 60 years except schoolwork. That’s quite a little while to spend isn’t it? I have a couple of degrees, a B.S. (Bachelor of Science) and a M.A. (Master of Arts), both from ASU (Appalachian State University). And I’m a minister and a schoolteacher with 39 years of experience under my belt. KW: What do you think about the way schools have changed from the way when you went? AM: Well, when I been to go to school, we had two to three, maybe four teacher schools where I went and I’ve taught in the same place for three years. And I’ve always taught in a one-teacher school for three years and we’re back to the one-teacher school concept now. The team teaching, individualized instruction, is practically the same thing that we had in those days in the one-teacher school. It’s the one-to-one “teacher-pupil” relationship. Frankly, I think we’re deteriorating some. I don’t think the concept is worth a “blanket-blank!” I can’t say the word because I am a minister. 2 �I don’t like teamwork. If the thing that we have done prior to this was good enough to develop the best technology on the face of the earth, and good enough to put a man on the moon and bring him back safely, I can’t see throwing it away. KW: When you were little, what did you hear about elections and politics? AM: Well, in those days we weren’t told much about why we held elections and in the schools… there was very little said about why we were voting. Frankly, I don’t think that we knew what it was all about in those days. I honestly can’t remember before the seventh or eighth (grade), know much about why an election was held. We may have learned a little bit in a casual sort of way, but I can’t remember anything. KW: What kind of transportation did you have when you were growing up? AM: The horse and the wagon. We rode horseback to church or in the wagon or we walked. Walking was the biggest thing. There were no automobiles when we were little. KW: Do you remember when you saw your first automobile? AM: Yes. KW: Do you remember what year it was? AM: No, I don’t. It was somewhere in the area of 1918, near the terminal point of World War One. I don’t remember seeing one before 1918. KW: What did you think about it? AM: We were fascinated by it. We hitched a ride on it if we got a chance. And the first airplane was just as fascinating. KW: Could you tell us some of the things about the “Potters” and the other bad men? AM: Booney Potter was one of the meaner ones and John O..J. was pretty bad to get drunk. I knew him personally. He told me one time that he was so drunk that he passed out and they thought that he was dead. They laid him out on a cooling board and dug his grave. He said that they had made his casket and put him in it. When he came to, he sat up and asked them what was going on, to those who were there, if it was some kind of joke. The people gathered told him that he would have been buried in another few hours, buried alive! John O..J. told me that he hadn’t been drunk any since then. I can remember him sending me to preach in his truck down in Bulldog, Tennessee. Quite an interesting deal, his grandson took me and we spent the night and the only time I ever caught the itch in my life was sleeping with him. 3 �KW: Do you remember any of the stories about the people killing each other? AM: I can tell you about an actual murder that occurred over there in Pottertown. I could tell you two. Let me tell you the one. Brown was his last name. I shouldn’t put the first name of the “Brown” in the story because I think he’s still living. He wanted to borrow his cousin’s truck to buy some more “white lightening” as they say. His cousin wouldn’t let him have his keys to the truck. They quarreled a little bit about it. The incident culminated in the death of one of the boys, the first cousin to the one who killed him. I was in the church preaching when that happened. The other incident involved a merchant whose last name was “Ellison.” He had operated a sawmill, a country, store and post office. He was practically an illiterate man, but he had a great deal of business acumen. Everything that he touched like King Midas “turned to gold.” I remember he went into a business transaction with a fellow named “Smith,” to manufacture little pins for the insulators of the telephone wire to be wound around, little pins about six or eight inches long. Mr. Smith didn’t live up to his end of the bargain and Mr. Ellison ran an attachment on some of the pins, some sort of legal transaction so that the workmen could be paid and Smith hopped onto Mr. Ellison with a knife and was about to whack him a little bit and Ellison shot and killed him. He came on to Boone himself and told the sheriff that he’s killed a man and he sent for me to come to the jail and talk to him about it. Later in the flood of 1940, he died and I went to do his funeral, had to wade the water up to Meat Camp Creek and across to Pottertown where he lived. I helped put him away. KW: You mentioned the flood, what can you tell us about that? AM: It was rather terrible. There were several people killed down in the Stony Fork area. I did a double funeral of two who were drowned in it up in the Howard’s Creek country on the rich mountains near the Tater Hill Lake. 4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Mortez, Arlie (interviewee) Weaver, Karen (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13, Drunk man almost burined alive Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Alie Mortez, February 5, 1973 Description An account of the resource Arlie Earl Moretz was born on June 30, 1908 to Sion Gideon Moretz (b. January 16, 1880 d. October 29, 1950) and Virginia Dare Stanberry (b. March 16, 1883 d. February 2, 1970). He married Alice Myers Moretz (b. May 12, 1912 d. January 25, 1965) who was born in Crossville, Tennessee to the parents of Thomas Myers and Olive Dougherty. His great grandfather was one of the first settlers in Watauga County, having married twice he had 25 children. The Arlie Moretz family lived in the Meat Camp area of Watauga County. Arlie Moretz died on September 7, 1997 at the age of 89. Mr. Moretz earned B.S. and M.A. degrees from Appalachian State, and professionally was both a minister and schoolteacher with 39 years of experience. During the interview he reflects on how education has changed from the time when he was a youth through his career as an educator, talks about attending and teaching in a one-room schoolhouse, personal reflection on education, and local politics. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moretz, Alie Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5-Feb-73 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Extent The size or duration of the resource. 4 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 14:14:31 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Watauga County (N.C.) Subject The topic of the resource Moretz, Arlie Earl--Interviews Teachers--North Carolina--Watauga County--Interviews Clergy--North Carolina--Watauga County--Interviews Watauga County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Appalachian State University car Depression Education herbs and roots Meat Camp moonshine New Deal Pottertown Tennessee Wake Forest Watauga County N.C. https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/bfdcde28375a3728f55e2a2522b3adf3.mp3 a7181a389c8b26b4fa24fbbfdd87830c https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/835b560d15d983d54fa5c6a0eaf55317.txt c1edff10e75a42c5708b3924208e5d9a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews Description An account of the resource In 1973, representatives from Appalachian State University (ASU) began the process of collecting interviews from Watauga, Avery, Ashe, and Caldwell county citizens to learn about their respective lives and gather stories. From the outset of the project, the interviewers knew that they were reaching out to the “last generation of Appalachian residents to reach maturity before the advent of radio, the last generation to maintain an oral tradition.” The goal was to create a wealth of data for historians, folklorists, musicians, sociologists, and anthropologists interested in the Appalachian Region. The project was known as the “Appalachian Oral History Project” (AOHP), and developed in a consortium with Alice Lloyd College and Lees Junior College (now Hazard County Community College) both in Kentucky, Emory and Henry College in Virginia, and ASU. Predominately funded through the National Endowment for the Humanities, the four schools by 1977 had amassed approximately 3,000 interviews. Each institution had its own director and staff. Most of the interviewers were students. Outgrowths of the project included the Mountain Memories newsletter that shared the stories collected, an advisory council, a Union Catalog, photographs collected, transcripts on microfilm, and the book Our Appalachia. Out of the 3,000 interviews between the three schools, only 663 transcripts were selected to be microfilmed. In 1978, two reels of microfilm were made available with 96 transcripts contributed by ASU. An annotated index referred to as The Appalachian Oral History Project Union Catalog was created to accompany the microfilm. The catalog is broken down into five sections starting with a subject topic index such as Civilian Conservation Corps, Coal Camps, Churches, etc. The next four sections introduced the interviewees by respective school. There was an attempt to include basic biographic information such as date of birth, location, interviewer name, length of interview, and subjects discussed. However, this information was not always consistent per school. This online project features clips from the interviews, complete transcripts, and photographs. The quality and consistency of the interviews vary due to the fact that they were done largely by students. Most of the photos are missing dates and identifying information. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-1989 Sound A resource whose content is primarily intended to be rendered as audio. Artist Critcher, Josie (interviewee) Ward, Karen (interviewer) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:53, Making soap Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Josie Critcher, August 8, 1973 Description An account of the resource Josie Mae McGuire Critcher was born on May 10, 1876 to Paul McGuire and Laura Martinee Lewis from Ashe County. She married Gaither Critcher on April 27, 1898 and they had seven children that included Thelma, Lena, Willie, Jessie, Paul, Robert, and Hubert. Gaither was a farmer and carpenter, and also pruned trees and shrubbery. The entire family helped on the farm and mother Josie did the cooking, canned food for the winter, spun cloth to make clothes, made quilts, embroidered pillow cases, made scarves, and crocheted lace and fringe. She also taught weaving at Watauga Handicrafts in Boone. During the interview she talked about her parents, siblings, making soap, quilting, education, using lamps before electricity, and raising children. She died in June 17, 1977 at the age of 101. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/195" target="_blank">Appalachian Oral History Project Interviews, 1965-1989</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8-Aug-73 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the interviews on the Appalachian State University Oral History Collection site is held by Appalachian State University. The interviews are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Appalachian State Collection 111. Appalachian Oral History Project Records, 1965-1989, W.L. Eury Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Any commercial use of the materials, without the written permission of the Appalachian State University, is strictly prohibited. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant <kml xmlns="http://earth.google.com/kml/2.0"><Folder><name>OpenLayers export</name><description>Exported on Thu Oct 24 2013 14:16:58 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)</description></Folder></kml>||||osm Boone (N.C.) Watauga County (N.C.) Subject The topic of the resource Critcher, Josie Mae McGuire--Interviews Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--19th century Ashe County (N.C.)--Social life and customs--20th century Watauga Handicrafts Center Ashe County cooking crafts Education farming quilt making Watauga Handicrafts