2 50 76 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7b7ee1eed3e098039fbec481d0138bb7.pdf d62bbdc2efdd8e3d733aff7828b2fb7e PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Jeffrey A. Gordon, U.S. Army Veteran Sergeant First Class, retired Skype Interview - Boone, NC 16 October 2011 MG: Matthew Gordon JC: SPC Jeffrey A. Gordon, retired MG: It is Sunday, October 16th, 2011. I am at home in Boone, North Carolina conducting an interview via Skype with retired U.S. Army Veteran Sergeant First Class Jeffrey A. Gordon. I am Cadet Matthew Gordon of Appalachian State University, and I will begin the oral history now. Sergeant Gordon, where were you born and raised? JC: I was born and raised in Logansport, Indiana. MG: When was your birthday? JC: September 18, 1960. MG: What did you do just before you joined the armed forces? Where were you living at the time? JC: We were living in Logansport, Indiana and worked several different jobs. MG: When and why did you choose to join the military? JC: Because I wanted to get out of Logansport, Indiana. MG: Okay, at what age did you enlist? JC: I enlisted when I was 17 as a junior in high school, and was leaving for active duty after I graduated in 1979. MG: Was there a family history of military service that inspired you or were you one of the first in your family to join the military? JC: My Grandpa was in the army at one time, during World War Two, but other than that I was the first one from the direct family to join. MG: Did your parents approve of you wanting to serve? JC: My dad. My grandpa was in the Marine Corps as well. MG: Okay, okay. 1 �MG: Did your parents approve of you wanting to serve in the military? JC: Yes, because like I said he was in the Marine Corps and then actually my uncle was in the Marine Corps as well that probably helped inspire me. MG: Sure. MG: Why did you choose the enlistment route over the officer route? JC: Because I was ready to get out of Logansport and I figured I'd get my college in the Army, which I did. MG: What was your MOS (military occupational specialty) at the time? JC: My first MOS was 13 Bravo as a cannon crewman and then after four years of that I reenlisted as a 97 Echo which was an interrogator (Human Intelligence Collector). MG: Okay, do you recall your first days in service? What did it feel like? JC: My first day was traveling to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. It was scary and when I got there it was very cold and again scary because it was just crazy back the joining for basic training and everything. MG: How did you feel about leaving home? JC: It was different. I was ready to go, ready to leave Logansport. But I had to leave your now your mother; she was my girlfriend or fiancé…so that wasn't fun. But I was ready to go. MG: Describe your training? Where was it and how long was it? JC: We went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma was there for 12 weeks which included the first and then they started a new program called OSUT, which was One Station Unit Training. We stayed right there at Fort Sill and went right to the artillery phase of training after basic. It was a total of 12 weeks. MG: Sure, what are some of the things from your training that stand out in your memory? JC: The first thing was that I didn't realize I was going be actually a cannon crewman. I thought I was going be telling the artillery guns where to shoot and working on the computers, but that didn't work out. There was a little problem with my contract. But it was…it was fun, I mean it was a lot of hard work, lost weight, got muscle…and worked real hard. I mean I didn't really workout a whole lot before that. So it was, it was good training. MG: So, where all did you serve? 2 �JC: Well we started at Fort Sill then from there we, I went back to Logansport, Indiana as a hometown recruiter. I did that for three months, from there went to Fort Carson, Colorado. After Fort Carson, Colorado went to Babenhausen, Germany. I reenlisted in Babenhausen for interrogation school went to Fort Huachuca, Arizona and then to Monterey, California for defense training for Polish. After that went to Munich, Germany for three years and worked with the 1811 MI Battalion, debriefing Polish defectors, after that we came back to the United States to Fort Hood, Texas, and applied to work in the embassy after the wall came down. We applied to come work in the embassy in Warsaw. I got accepted for that, and then we came to Columbia, Missouri and worked with the ROTC Department and then I retired. MG: Okay, how hard was it being away from family, friends, and loved ones? JC: Well, our family was with us, so leaving Logansport, Indiana wasn't too hard (laughing) honestly. We were ready to go and travel and see the world. MG: Sure. JC: Even though our children thought that it was bad thing to do for...for 17 years, but we did it anyway MG: Sure (laughing). What kind of assignments were you assigned to throughout your career? JC: Well, like I said, four years in the artillery, as a cannon crewman, started out on eight inch artillery at Fort Carson and then when I went into Babenhausen was also on 8 inch Artillery and then we did a three month tour with the 105 cannons, which was air assault. After that interrogation school debriefing Polish defectors for three years in Munich and then went to Fort Hood. I was the operations sergeant and actually the platoon sergeant for a counter intelligence platoon to Warsaw, Poland. I was the Operations NCOIC (non-commissioned officer in charge) for the defense attaché office and before that we were in Washington, D.C. for training. When we came back to the United States and was the NCOIC of the Cadet ROTC Detachment. I was the personnel or NCOIC, then I retired. MG: Tell me about your most memorable experiments...experiences and highlights throughout your service? JC: Oh, that's a tough one. Probably the most fun with the unit, it was a pretty tight group. Training in Fort Huachuca for interrogation was real interesting and fun. I mean it was tough, but fun. And then spending three years working with Polish Defectors in Germany was good. It was a great experience being able to send people to the United States. After that the platoon sergeant time was because we got accepted to go to Warsaw. Then work in the embassy…that was real rewarding because again, we were sending Polish military cadets and student to the United 3 �States. We enjoyed that and Poland was probably the most fun and rewarding because we did so many different things. MG: Sure, so on your time on leave where all did you prefer to travel too or where did you travel? JC: Most of the time on leave we always came back home to Logansport because everybody wanted to see us. But we did get to travel overseas a lot. When we were in Germany we traveled all over Europe. When we were in Warsaw we got to see the border of Russia unofficially. But just being able to travel with the military is one of the best things. You do get to see a lot of stuff. On leave, we always came back home, it seemed like. Instead of taking vacations, which we probably should have done more. MG: Did you plan to retire from the Army or was that just something that came too thought as time passed? JC: No, I think after the first time I reenlisted I figured we'd stay the whole duration and then retire because of the benefits and the way everything was going the economy. You know the benefits are a great thing. Having the medical and having the check come every month, that's nice. MG: What did you do towards the end of your career? JC: Well, towards the end it was more administrative work with ROTC and trying not to lie to them. Tell them how great the military was at that time (laughing) back in '95. But yes, I mean ROTC was time go, it was time to retire once I got to that assignment because the military was drawing down so much. It was time to go, time to move onto something different. MG: Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you? JC: We were in Columbia, Missouri trying to figure out what we were going to do next. We had two kids and that scared us. We actually all went to Disney World for a week and then came back and started our own business and worked with training people. So it was different. MG: How long were you in the service? JC: About 17 and a-half years. At that time they were allowing people to retire early. So I did get to retire instead of getting bought out, like they were doing to a lot people. But I did retire with benefits and medical. MG: What influential experiences did you draw from the military in general? How has it affected your life today? JC: Well, that's a tough one. I think overall, it affects every part of your life. As my wife says, I'm bossier now (laughing) and in charge, want to be in charge all the time. But, it's just the overall experience you can’t beat it. I think every 18-year-old kid should go in the military just to 4 �get that, whether its two years experience or what. They ought to some type of service because it just makes you a better person. And you get to see a lot in the world if you go out there. But if you stay in your hometown all the time, you don't get to. MG: True. So would you do it all over again if you had the chance? JC: Oh definitely, we’d go back to Poland now if there was a chance (laughing). Even as a retired person. MG: Why would you want to do it all over again? JC: Oh, I you just, the travel and the people…you get to learn everything and your spending time in foreign countries and you get to see a lot, a lot when you are in the military if you choose to go out into the world and go to different places overseas you can't beat it. I just think, don’t think you can beat it with anything else. MG: Just to kind of bounce back to another question…what was the transition between field artillery to interrogation? JC: Oh, that was huge. That was a totally different concept of combat arms…it was an eye opener. Combat arms versus a military intelligence unit are different styles of leadership, different attitudes towards the military. Honestly, dealing with the artillery it was all male, and then in military intelligence you had to deal with the female aspects of everything as a leader. And all the different issues that come up. So that was a huge transition and then after, then three years of that in military intelligence was being in civilian clothes and not really being associated with the military. So that was fun, but it was also a big transition. MG: What persuaded you…or what skills or mindset did you have towards switching from field artillery to interrogation? JC: I looked at the senior NCOs in artillery and most of them were deaf, or had hearing aids. I figured after 20 years of shooting artillery I'd be deaf you know in both ears. I already lost hearing in one ear in four years. So I figured it was time to get out of that. Because you just don't get to wear your hearing protection when you are trying to hear commands and that type of thing. Back then, now it's all computerized, so it 's a lot different. MG: So tell me a little more about this transition, what was training like as far as interrogation goes? JC: Well, eight weeks at Fort Huachuca (Arizona) of role playing and actually interrogating you know learning how to question techniques and dealing with belligerent people. Because prisoners aren’t always going to tell you what they want. So you got to figure ways to get it out of them. But stick to the Geneva Convention and not do anything wrong. Eight weeks of that, and then basically it was one year of learning Polish language, which was a very, very hard year. A lot of personality problems with the Polish instructors and our son was born the night before the biggest phase test…and I needed to pass it. So he picked a good time to come into the world 5 �(laughing). But it was all worth it. And then I spent another eight weeks learning strategic debriefing and different techniques like report writing and that type of thing. It was a lot of fun. MG: Did you see any kind of combat situations? What kind of training were you involved in? JC: No combat. I guess we are considered Cold War Veterans. When Saddam went into Kuwait, we were on our way to Washington, D.C. for training. We continued on to Washington and did not go back to Fort Hood. When the wall came down a lot of the Eastern European languages, jobs were done away with because they didn't need them anymore. So, no...never saw any combat. We had our own situations in Poland. But we did get to shoot a lot of weapons in training. MG: How hard was it learning the languages? What kind of languages did you have to learn for interrogation purposes? JC: Polish. It was a pain in the butt. Four years of college level classes were crammed into one year, eight hours a day of classroom instruction. Probably two hours of memorizing, two to four hours a night memorizing statements and phrases and vocabulary and then you go back in the next day. It was just a constant. It was one year with I think a two week break every three months or something. It wasn't fun. So a lot of stress, a lot of drinking, a lot of partying on Friday nights, Saturday nights you party. Sunday night you start studying for class on Monday. Several weddings, lots of kids born (laughing). It was different. MG: On that note, what are some of the craziest things you and your buddies did while you were in the service? JC: Oh, I don't know what's really crazy outside. I mean we did a lot of crazy fun stuff in the military. I mean I think one of the funniest things we did or was we had a big pizza party for the Marine Corps security detachment in Warsaw. I knew the flight crew that was bringing in an empty plane and we brought in twenty large pizzas from Pizza Hut out of Frankfurt, Germany (laughing) strapped down in the middle of this 141. We had a pizza party at the Marine Corps bar that night. Thanks to the Air Force! (laughing) That was probably one of the funniest. MG: Well (more laughing) is there anything you would like to add that we have not covered in this interview, or like a closing thought? JC: A closing thought would be that…to reiterate I think every 18 or 19 year old kid should go...male or female…should do some type of service in the military or federal government or something. And get out and see the world…and then maybe come back and go to college. Then if they decide to join the military, they can go enlisted or officer route. It’s really up to them. It was a fun time, we did get to see a lot, our kids got to be in foreign countries and travel on airplanes a lot. No regrets at all in the military. I mean…things change, it's a lot different now than when I retired in'95, but it's all good. MG: What kind of changes would you say that have occurred or that you've seen occur since your time in service? 6 �JC: Technology's probably the biggest thing. Another crazy thing we probably did was in 1989 but we had White House communications technology and we set up a little satellite dish on the runway in Warsaw and I got to call my dad back in Indiana. Back then we had to use a satellite dish. Now today you can just pick up a phone. So technology is just advanced so much that you never really kept up with everything in the artillery. There's probably so many computers that control everything...I mean we did everything by verbal commands. And the uniforms are different; they are so much better than what it was. That's been 20 something years ago. MG: Well, I thank you very much for your time and patience throughout the interview. And just wanted to thank you again. JC: No problem, thank you JC: Don't work too hard now! MG: All right, we'll see you later now. JC: All right. MG: Bye. 7 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2200d1209d06673630bab91b8fee4e81.mp3 b451c065bd4196a79fecbb1149588e10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Gordon, Jeff Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Gordon, Matthew Interview Date 10/16/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 22:46 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Army, NCO, Logansport, Indiana, cannon crewman, human intelligence collector, interrogator, Fort Sill, Fort Carson, Germany, Fort Hood, ROTC, Fort Huachuca, University of Missouri, Poland, enlisted man Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jeff Gordon, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Cold War Gordon, Jeff, 1960- United States Veterans Military Intelligence Interviews Army Officers Description An account of the resource Jeff Gordon, born September 18, 1960, served 17 and a half years in the U.S. Army (enlisting in 1979), retiring as a Veteran Sergeant First Class. He served as a cannon crewman and interrogator (Human Intelligence Collector). In the interview he talks about his career (including service in seven states, Germany, and Poland) plus the benefits for U.S. youth to see the world through military service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gordon, Jeff Gordon, Matthew Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 7 pages Language A language of the resource English cannon crewman Fort Sill Oklahoma Germany interrogation Logansport Marine Corps ROTC https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f510a890e73e5b7de45451d89c9b252d.pdf ff82f45aa6f924112e9ff84c352eb8bc PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Captain Richard Meyers Boone, North Carolina 11 October 2011 DJ: Daniel Johnson RM: Richard Meyers, Captain DJ: My name is Daniel Johnson. I'm conducting this interview on 12th October, 2011 in the ROTC Department at Appalachian State University. I am interviewing Captain Richard Meyers of the United States Army, whose current position is.... RM: Recruiting Operations Officer. DJ: Recruiting Operations Officer for Appalachian State ROTC. Ok, let's get the questions started. When were you born? RM: When? DJ: Yes. RM: October 2nd 1980. DJ: When did you enlist? RM: I enlisted in the Army in March; I think it was 14th 2003. DJ: Okay. RM: And that was into the Reserves? DJ: In the Reserves. Were you trying to participate in the SMP program? RM: I was at Clemson University. DJ: So you were in ROTC before you joined...? RM: Yes, I completed my first semester my freshman year and enlisted there in the second semester of there my freshman year of college. DJ: Did you go to basic training in the summer of 2003? RM: I did, yes, in the summer of 2003. 1 �DJ: Where did you train? RM: Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. DJ: And your MOS was? RM: 21 Bravo at the time. It's now 12 Bravo, which are combat engineers. DJ: Combat engineers. What interested you in the combat engineers more so then any other branch at first? RM: Well, I had a short AIT, which was good for doing while I'm in college, and also...wanted to do something combat related. And went ahead and did combat engineers. DJ: Combat engineers. Why did you, what made you interested in ROTC, the Army in the first place? RM: Well, when I was high school, I had a young lady who sat in front of me in English class. My senior year and she asked me what I was going to do after high school and I said that I was thinking about going to college. And she said, “Were you thinking about doing a ROTC scholarship?” And I was like, 'What's that?' So one thing led to another with that and I found it what it was. Went ahead and applied for one. Had never done any JROTC. No one in my immediate family was in the military. They all had mixed feelings about it. I did not get a scholarship, but decided I would still do ROTC while I was in college. DJ: Were you always interested in the Army branch of ROTC? Army branch more so then any other branch? RM: Yes, yes, always interested in the Anny branch. DJ: Let’s go back to boot camp. Do you remember anything about boot camp, first arriving there, the drill sergeants? RM: Yes, I can't remember any of the drill sergeants' names, but I would know their faces if I ever saw them again. I have seen one of them before at Fort Riley before I went to Iraq. I remember being on the cattle car, going to where basic training was going to start for us. After we did all the in processing, I remember getting off and getting yelled out. We had to unload our duffle bags and get everything inspected. But it was pretty fun looking back at it, though wasn't fun at the time. DJ: Through 72-days, you would never want to do it again, but you didn’t mind doing it. RM: Yes. 2 �DJ: Did you have any people to help you get through it or… RM: Just some other people that were there. I really didn’t need too much help getting through it. It really wasn’t that difficult compared to other things I have done. But, it's always nice to have other people to talk to, to vent after the days over with. DJ: The random people, the battle buddies? RM: Yes. DJ: When I went there, I was ok with most of the guys. RM: Yes. DJ: Did you ever serve in any conflicts? RM: I was deployed to Iraq. Left in October 2008, and spent a few weeks in Kuwait doing more training there. Then went up into Iraq. I think it was early November 2008 when we arrived. DJ: So you were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom? RM: Yes. DJ: Was there a different name for it by then? RM: No, it was Operation Iraqi Freedom. But it was just for a year. DJ: A yearlong deployment? RM: Y e s . DJ: What part of lraq were you in during that time? RM: Well we flew up; when we left Kuwait we went up to Camp Tahji, which is in Baghdad. And got a bunch of briefings there for a week or two. Then we flew to...think it was FOB or Camp Spiker, and we stayed there for a few days. That was part of our movement up north; we were just waiting for our helicopter ride. Then we finally got one and went to Mosul, and landed in FOB Marez via Chinook helicopter. And spent the night there and then the next day, and we left the following night to go up to where. We spent most of our time, which was in Erbil Iraq, with- in the Kurdish region. DJ: Do you remember when you first arrive what it was like, or? RM: Yes. I do so...it was hot. It has a totally different smell, especially up in FOB Marez. 3 �It’s kind of hazy there all the time that I noticed. Throughout the whole deployment every time we went there it always seemed like it had a haze over it. Not a very friendly city. I remember the first night going outside the wire there when we went up to Erbil. I was supposed to be riding in the back of one of the MRAPs that we had on our transition team, because we still had the old team there showing us how they did things. And our combat medic was going to be driving in the 1114, which is the HMMV. But compared to the MRAPs the armor is not as great. So I switched out with him and drove. And I remember driving through Mosul at night following the other MRAPs and that HMMV it just struggled keeping up. It's not made for all the armor it was carrying. But it was a little; I don't know if it was scary, but it was a good bit of an adrenaline rush at first, because all of the training you get is, you know, “Hey! Watch out for piles of rocks. Watch out for trash.” Well on the sides of the streets in Mosul are all those things. So, you’re trying to look for IEDs...and it just gets to a point where it's like, you know what, whatever. I'm just going to drive now. I'm the rear vehicle. Just going to keep up with everyone else. So that was a little nerve racking, but looking back at it, it was good times, nothing happened. DJ: (Laughing) When you first arrived there. What was your assignment while you were in Iraq? RM: We were part of a fire support officer for a border transition team. Never had to call for artillery or air support while I was up there because we were with the Kurds. Very pro American, willing to help us. Heck I mean when we drove around they were providing security for us, you know? A good group of people. But we were just training them on how to better secure their borders up there. Their regional headquarters was in Erbil, and it had control over three provinces. Dahouk, Erbil Province, and Sulaymaniyyah province which, that encompasses a few kilometers of the Syrian border, all the Turkish border, and then a good bit of the Iranian border. So, we did a lot of driving while we were up there. DJ: My dad's unit during the Gulf War, their furthest advance was actually Dahouk in 1991. The 82nd. RM: Yes. DJ: That's where they stopped and then had to start going backwards. Because they were going too deep into Iraq and then the war was over back then...Did you take any contact while you were in Iraq? RM: No one ever shot at us that I know of. We never shot at anybody while we were over there that I do know for a fact. The only incident we had a night when we were going into Mosul. We were following another convoy that was taking supplies into FOB Marez. And we got held up by a route clearance unit that had found an IED on the route that we were taking. So we had to wait for them to do a controlled detonation on it before we could move on. So we were supposed to get there at midnight and I think we got in probably one or two o clock in the morning. So... 4 �DJ: Did anything really stick out to you from your deployment? Like your most memorable experience? RM: Most memorable experience...nothing really stands out. We helped with some of the schools getting repairs done on them. That was a pretty good experience. You know, doing patrols with the Iraqis, especially along the Turkish border, whi ch for the most part wasn't too threatening. But there was intelligence that there was a lot of drugs flowing into Turkey from that area because it’s an easier way to get into Europe, corning from Iran and places like that. So I just remember walking along and....with my pistol drawn through the tall grass and trees along a river that borders Turkey looking for people with the Iraqi border police. You know I take it back, one event that really stands out, we were up...I'm trying to think the name of the city I can't remember it now. We were on the Iranian border and we were investigating some incidences where the Iranians were shooting some artillery into Iraq. They said they were targeting P-jact, which is a separatist organized group that fights with Iran for Kurdish independence. When we went there we talked to a gentleman whose son was killed by Iranian artillery. And he still had damage on his house like there was still hole in the roof on it. And he was showing us his hot water heater, w h i c h was riddle with shrapnel. We walked around there for a while. Pulled some evidence out of some of the craters that were there. Found pieces of rockets that the Iranians had fired into Iraq. And then when we left we were back at one of the Iraqi border forts, probably about 10 miles away. And they carne in running...running into the room while we were talking to the commander through our interpreters, pretty excited about something. And the Iraqi commander got up and was telling us to come with him. And he ran up- went up to the roof of the border fort. And Iran was shelling the same area we were just at again. So that event really sticks out to me. I don’t think a lot of people know there are instances on a regular basis between those two countries that isn’t mentioned in the media here in the U.S. DJ: Pretty interesting. RM: Yes. DJ: Were you awarded any citations for your action in Iraq? RM: I was awarded a Bronze Star for the work we did up there up north. I was a unit administrative officer since I didn't really have to deal with calling in artillery for anything. And I advised the Iraqi border police headquarters on how to better keep track of their personnel. Make sure people that were injured or killed patrolling the border received- their family received the benefits that they were entitled to. Just keeping up with that stuff. And then, also did a little bit of training too with the Iraqis. So... 5 �DJ: Did you...how did you stay in touch while you were over there? Was there Internet video or.... RM: In the later stages I was able to use video Skype. The bandwidth we had over there wasn't the greatest so a lot of times, I just used video audio Skype. And it worked just like a regular phone. Set a phone number up before I left to go to Iraq while I was visiting my parents in Maryland. They got a phone number so they could call me in Iraq, and if I was in my “ choo,” which is where we lived, our little housing unit.... And my computer was on hooked the internet the phone would ring. Very rarely did that happen but I could always call them if we weren’t out on missions. DJ: Did you feel any pressure while you were over there being in command or was it pretty laid back considering the area you were in? RM: I wasn't the highest ranking officer on our team. We had a lieutenant colonel and a major who got promoted to lieutenant colonel while we were there. One other major who was our intelligence officer and then myself. And then we had two senior non commissioned officers, two E-7s, and a staff sergeant who was our mechanic. I wouldn’t say it was laid back, definitely had plenty of work to do while I was over there, but I didn't feel any pressure really, that you know worried about someone getting hurt. Mainly because of the area we were in. And I knew, I mean I was a gunner on one of the MRAPs while we had them. And we had one of the senior non commissioned officers and our mechanic was the other gunner. And you know I knew had my back and I had theirs. But I wasn’t really worried about anything happening where we were. DJ: Were other parts of lraq hot at that time? RM: They were. When we would go into FOB Marez in Mosul we would definitely be packing everything we could. Didn’t mess around in that city. You know I never really got scared while I was over there; it was more of like a, kind of an adrenaline rush. I mean when you’re going through those city streets in Mosul, knowing that city is probably the second worst in Iraq outside of Baghdad. It's pretty real. And you know you’re always scanning the buildings around you because you don’t want someone shooting down on you, from you a multi story building. So that keeps it pretty real keeps the adrenaline going, but never really afraid though while we were going through all that. Looking back on it, it was kind of crazy, but I wasn’t too concerned while I was over there though. DJ: Did anything funny a lot of funny events that happened over there? RM: Funny events? DJ: Or something goofy? RM: We had a bunch of cats on our FOB. Not really sure how they got there but they would 6 �eat the trash. They were kind of nasty, like alley cats. They were like rats when it came to trash. You know they would always be around it. We had a small dining facility that some foreigners worked in. I think they were from Bangladesh. But they had a little dumpsite for all the trash and stuff, and the cats would always be going through there. And I was going to work in our headquarters one morning; I think it was probably a Saturday. We norn1ally didn't work on Saturdays because the Iraqis didn't meaning we didn’t go outside the wire. But I went to the headquarters to do some administrative stuff and I heard this noise outside, and I was like, “What is that?” I opened the door and it was these two male cats, I mean just fighting. Clawing each other, biting. They were rolled up in one ball. And there was fur flying through the air. So I had tossed some rocks at them to break them up. And they got off each other and they were looking at me. They had fur hanging out of their mouths, they were dripping with blood and stuff, and I was like, “Oh my goodness.” I ran them off. But, that was probably, I don't know if it was the funniest thing, but it was definitely one of the craziest things I saw while I was over there. But, I mean we had quite a few things. When the Iraqis would get ammunition we would have shooting competitions with some of the border police out on the areas where no one was living. We pretty much set up range and we just had shooting competitions with them. So that was pretty fun. DJ: Once you got back, what did you do? Did you do a deployment drawdown with your unit or… RM: When we got back, we went back to Fort Riley where we did our initial training for the transition team. And we spent I don’t think it was quite a week while we there doing all of our redeployment stuff. All of our medical and some of our other administrative paperwork so we could go home. The cool thing about it was that we were put in the front of the line anytime we were doing redeployment stuff if there was another unit coming back because we hadn’t seen our families yet. We flew straight back to Fort Riley and our families were scattered all over the-really all over the world. So we were waiting to get back with them. So they jumped us to the front of the line. We were able to out process after we turned in our weapons and everything...in a few days, and then got us on aircraft to go home or to our next assignments. So that was a pretty interesting time. I didn't know it at the time when I was going to airport from Fort Riley to fly back home, my grandmother had passed away that morning. So that was a little tough to deal with, coming back to that. And it delayed me getting to my next assignment. I spent a little more time home then I was planning on. DJ: So after deployment did you automatically get sent to another station or... RM: They go to their next assignment or go home if they’re taking leave first. It really varied depending on the individual. 7 �DJ: So you were part of the 1st Armored or 1st Infantry Division? RM: I did all the training at Fort Riley through the 1st Infantry Division, 1st Brigade. When we got over to Iraq we were attached to 3rd ACR at first but they were leaving. They left pretty much a month after we got there. And then we were attached to 2-1 Cav the rest of the time. DJ: What unit were you part of during this time? RM: More so 2-1 Cav. I mean, because they were the ones that had all the logistical support for us and the administrative stuff too. DJ: That's interesting. So what was your next assignment after? RM: It was here at Appalachian State University ROTC. DJ: Did you choose to come here? RM: I did. I was dating a woman at the time who lived in South Carolina before I went to Iraq. And my plan was try to get an assignment to the Southeast, even if that meant Fort Stewart, Fort Benning, or Fort Bragg. And then someone mentioned, “Hey you could also do ROTC?” So I sent an email to my branch manager saying, “Hey look if there's an ROTC that has an opening anywhere in the Southeast, I'd like to go there. My first choice is Clemson because I'm a alumni b u t if that doesn't work out I'm open to pretty much anything.” A few months into the deployment he sent a message to me saying, “Hey would you want to go to Appalachian State University.” And I was like, “Yes, that's fine.” So I already knew about it, or knew about the university because Clemson would compete with them in Ranger challenge and I knew it was a good ROTC program b e f o r e I got here. DJ: And Lieutenant Colonel Kilgore and Sergeant Major Arbogast were here at the time? RM: Correct. Yes. DJ: That’s pretty interesting...What did you think when you first met them when you first came here? RM: I thought they were pretty high speed. Obviously the program, the cadets that we were commissioning were solid, especially tactically. So, I think they were great people. DJ: Because I know that’s like way before my time, those early years. Because I really didn’t start getting involved until they were on their way out. RM: Yes. 8 �DJ: So...this is your last year and then you move on to another assignment. RM: Right. After this I go to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for my Captain's career course. Really I'm behind right now. Had I not gotten an ROTC assignment they were going to send me to the Captain's Career Course right after I got back from Iraq. DJ: And the Captain's Career Course is the next step to be appointed to major? RM: Well, you need to have it for theory you need to have it before you do a command. DJ: A company command? RM: Correct. Or in my case a battery command. And it also gives you training in how to be a staff officer as well. DJ: That's pretty interesting. So after that, you complete that you find out what your next unit is? RM: Correct. I don't know what my next assignment is yet. I've tried looking into that, but my understanding is when I get to Fort Sill the branch managers will come and figure out who’s going where at that point in time DJ: Is there any other places you would like to go, any stations in particular? RM: I would love to get back to a line unit, even one that’s deploying. My request that I sent it before being told, “Hey look just wait until you get to the Career Course.” Fort Stewart down in Georgia, Fort Benning in Georgia, Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and if I had to do an overseas one I put Hawaii. I've already been to South Korea. I wouldn’t mind going to Germany, but for right now I want to hold on because I just got married. So, trying to stay in the United States for a little bit. DJ: So you chose artillery? Was that your first choice? RM: Yes, artillery was my first branch choice. DJ: Was there anything that really interested you about it? RM: Just that it was a combat arms branch. Infantry, I didn’t necessarily want to do that. I don’t know why now, but I think my second choice was armor. So I was just looking to get another job like combat engineers. DJ: Something.... RM: Just had a lot of firepower. DJ: You could be out there doing the combat job? 9 �RM: Yes. DJ: That makes sense. So did your service in Iraq affect your life any? Give you more perspective? RM: It gave me more perspective. When I watch the news now, especially with the Arab Spring going on, from what it's called anyway. My perspective on the Muslim religion is a little different. There are definitely Muslims out there who are pro United States in the Kurds. I still debate whether there are any pro Americans in the Southern parts of Iraq. But I wasn’t there, I don’t really know. So it gives more perspective when I listen to the news. I understand the difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslim. And why they fight with each other all the time. I understand that region is very unstable having been there. Probably the direct effect on coming back was probably my driving habits. Took me a while to slow down, because I was used to driving pretty while I was in Iraq. DJ: Habit always checking the trash and stuff like that? RM: Well, not so much, but looking for stuff that was going to blow up. We didn't have too many issues with that but you know the way we drove in Iraq, we just drove fast. DJ: Fast but safe. RM: Yes. DJ: That makes sense. All right. I think that covers just about all the questions Captain Meyers. RM: All right DJ: Thank you for your time. RM: Yes, not a problem. 10 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9ea04fe2cc6a8a07e749db88b752f1ce.mp3 1d86179bcce70d65f2766ff1b1b58afa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Meyers, Richard Allen Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Johnson, Daniel Interview Date 10/12/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:10 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Army, officer, recruiting operations officer, ROTC, ASU, Appalachian State University, Clemson University, Army Reserves, Fort Leonard Wood, combat engineer, Fort Riley, Iraq, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Baghdad, Kuwait, IED, Bronze Star, Fort Riley, 1st Infantry Division, artillery Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Allen Meyers, 12 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Meyers, Richard, 1960- Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Richard Meyers, born October 2, 1980, enlisted into the Army in 2003. Current position as of 2011--Recruiting Operations Officer for Appalachian State ROTC. Served in Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq War) for one year, 2008-2009. In this interview, he discusses his experiences doing patrols and advising Iraqi border police in Erbil, a Kurdish region of Iraq. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Meyers, Richard Allen Johnson, Daniel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 10 pages Language A language of the resource English combat engineer IED Kurds Mosul Operation Iraqi Freedom Recruiting Operations Officer reserves ROTC https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0a1c019749fe7afe9eb7483b5267b8a0.pdf 940cbd7294c806b6d7ad0b7266499227 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Joseph Emerson Mitchell Sr. Charlotte, NC 16 October 2011 DM: David Mitchell JM: Joseph Emerson Mitchell, Sr. DM: Hello this is David Mitchell interviewing Joseph Emerson Mitchell Sr. on 16th, October 2011at his home in Charlotte, North Carolina for American Military History. When did you enlist in the military? JM: I enlisted in the military in November 13, 1950. DM: 1950? JM: Yes. DM: How old were you? JM: Seventeen. DM: Why did you decide to join so young? JM: Well, I needed a job. DM: That was it? JM: No, I always did like the military, my brothers was in the military. And I always wanted to be a soldier. And due to limited opportunities in civilian life at that time it seemed like a good thing to do. DM: Were all your brothers in the military? JM: I had five brothers; four of them were in the military. DM: Four of them? Did they all deploy, go overseas, and fight the wars? JM: My two oldest brothers were in World War Two; one was in the Navy and one was in the Army. DM: So why did you decide to join the Army as oppose to the Air Force or the Navy? JM: Because of the Joy brothers, most of them were in the Army. I had three brothers in the Army. 1 �DM: Did you ever wish you joined the Air force, or… JM: No. DM: When you enlisted what job did you want? JM: Well, at that time they assigned you a job. After basic training, I was in the signal corps, pole line construction. Then they turned around and sent me to mechanic school, auto vehicle maintenance. Then when I got out of mechanic school, that's when I started working as a military mechanic, army mechanic. DM: How was that for you? JM: Well, it was very good at the time, I didn't think much of it but after staying in the military for 26 years and 10 months and 26 days, I arose to the rank of warrant officer. And as hook back on it that was a dream for me because at that age I really didn't know what I wanted to do or be. So they made the choice for me which they picked from to be aptitude test; it was a battery test that you took when you went in the military. DM: So in 1950, you went to basic training, then did you go to your individual training? JM: My unit was a signal unit, signal construction unit, what they did after we got settled about 8 or 9 months into the military they trained us into different sections; supply, maintenance, administration. And I was chose to be in automotive maintenance. And they sent me to Fort Jackson, South Carolina for mechanic school. DM: And that's when you got involved in the ordinances corps? JM: Yes. DM: How was your overall experience in the military? JM: Well, it had its ups and downs, its good times, and its bad times. You got to understand that I entered in the military in 1950; the military was a segregated affair. Black troops served in one part and white troops served in the other. In fact, during basic training we had a white cadre training black troops and we've had some incidents for instance our white cadre told us we sound like a bunch of monkeys. And at that time everyone rebelled so they had to relieve him. But that was just one incident. Other then that things were pretty good. After I left Fort Jackson I went to Fort Rucker in Alabama, which was our holding station and then my unit went down to Fort Bliss, Texas and after I got to Texas we were assigned duties pertaining to our unit. In fact they had us there for about 30 or 40 days with no mission for us then moved us to Fort Hood, Texas and that's where we got our mission for pole line construction and I was lucky enough to stay there for about two months. 2 �Then they ordered me to go to Korea. I didn't get to Korea until February 1952 and when I got there to my surprise they assigned us to integrated units, and the unit wasn't bad, the people were good and everyone got along all right. I stayed there for 12 months and the policy was that the people, when you got to Korea you stay in the unit and the people that you came in through, after awhile they rotate and then you could get promoted up the ladder to take their place. And my position would be battalion motor sergeant but I ran into some racism there due to the fact that we had a new maintenance officer there named Mr. Nobles. Corporal Jones and myself were the only two black ranking men in the motor pool, so instead of promoting us he took some white boys and promoted them had them active jacks and Jones, and me he wanted us work for him. So we went to the company commander, the company commander took us out of the motor pool and we had various details; cleaning up mess halls and driving the gas truck and all the things like that. Except for that one incident I think Korea was pretty good. And I returned from Korea in February of ‘53. And was stationed in Camp Bell Rock, Nevada and that's when during the time they were experimenting with atomic explosions, nuclear explosions. So I stayed down there for three months or four months and they sent me back to Fort Ord in California and there I was discharged. So then I left there went back east and I listed in the reserves to keep my right because you can't stand out for 60 or 90 days, you lose your rank and at that time I was a corporal. So after I got in the reserves I stayed in the Reserves for about three or four months and then I volunteered and went back to active duty. And it just so happens to be that when I went on active duty they sent me down to Fort Jackson, SC for reassignment. I wanted to go back North due to the racial policies during those days; which is very segregated in the south. Black people were treated like crap as far as I was concerned because see I was from the north. But anyway, when I got down there they told me the only way I could go north was to volunteer to go airborne training. So I volunteered to go airborne training never thinking that I'd be jumping out no airplane. But anyway, they sent me to Fort Bragg and I got involved with the 82nd Airborne Division, America's God of Honor and I stayed there from '54 to '60 and people were just doing some serious soldiering, we had problems you know, we had racial problems in the higher ranks. But then I went to Germany. I went to Germany in 1960 and pulled three years in Germany, and at that time the Cold War was going on and the military is very strict. In fact, we had a curfew and we had to be in bed during the weekdays at 11o'clock and 12 o'clock on the weekends. We were doing some serious training; we would move into the field regardless of the weather winter or summer and stay 30 or 50 days sometimes. So later the Berlin wall went up and there was a confrontation, this was during the time of Cuban Missile Crisis. President Kennedy had ordered that Cuba to be blockade and during that time I was in the airborne unit and things were very tense. 3 �So we were on a 24 hour notice, we loaded out ready for combat. They said when the word comes you just got to go and that was it But what I want to emphasize, I was in the airborne artillery unit and the Berlin guys said it was 110 miles down in ties with Soviet territory in order to get to Berlin the American sector, which was West Berlin. Our mission was to fly over Russian territory and pass shooting to reinforce the Berlin guys but then the Cubans backed down, not the Cubans, the Russians backed down in Cuba and that done away with that crisis. So after that crisis we never had an extreme crisis besides when the Berlin Wall went up, and after pulling three years in Germany, I returned to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. The 101st Airborne Division and there we done some serious soldiering too. We stayed in the field a lot, the troops were all right, and you had your pockets of resistance as far as black and white. But normally everything was pretty good. Old soldiers like myself they were used to everyone getting along pretty good, it was the young boys that come off the block come from these homes with people who were taught this mess about declarations of people; that's where the problem was. But if you moved up in the ranks like I did it wasn't any problems because you was snatched a lot and that got them squared away. So during my training with the 101st Airborne I stayed there for 18 months. And we went to field to two deformations with field problems, we went to one field problem in Iran were over there for 21 days and pulled an exercise for the show of Iran up and down them hills. And then we turned around and turned to Fort Campbell, but before we would get back to the base, the airplanes couldn't get out because of the sand storm came up and we had to stay out of the dessert for about three or four days before aircraft could come in to get us out. They finally got us out and then we flew back to Fort Campbell, we stayed there for about 60 days and the commander named Colonel Wolfe would volunteer us for all kind of different activities and missions. So then we moved out to the Mojave dessert for 30 days and that didn't move too well with the troops; we just left Iran and went through various field problems. We got back from Operation Dessert Strike because it took 30 days moving up and down Nevada, Southern California and parts of Wyoming. So then we returned to Fort Campbell, Kentucky after that and we had a lot of complaining because there were no commission officers and everyone wanted to transfer out. So then the division commander, we had to stand down in the first brigade so then they got up gave us little break down. I was assigned to infantry in Fort Campbell in the 322nd Infantry, 1st Battalion but while I was there I got transferred down to 2nd Artillery and I stayed there until I volunteered to go to Vietnam. And I stayed at Fort Campbell in '64 till '65 it was a total of 18 months. And then I left there and got to Vietnam in June of '65. I stayed in Vietnam for a year. My job in Vietnam I was an advisor so at that time they called I-Corps and at that time we were the first consistent army division for the republic of South Vietnam and my job was in administrative logistics advisor, making sure that on the out-post the advisors got resupplied. Whatever they needed we did it; helicopter rides into the jungle and wherever else plus riding up and down Highway 1 to the city of Wei the imperial capitol in South Vietnam to as far north as 4 �Quan Tri, is just on the border of South Vietnam, and after 12 months there, and I returned to the states. Well, let me go back a little bit let me go back until I was there until '65 and '66. We had an uprising in the auburn divisions when it turned against the government and the government they pulled away from the government they didn’t want to be in the government, so then they took representatives from the government to the first division headquarters to try to talk them into political sentence to get back in the South Vietnamese army like they was suppose to. They were all just satisfied with people protesting and all of that kind of junk. But anyway, during that time we had negotiators from down in Denang, which was 100 miles down the road from South Vietnam. They came up to negotiate the division commander to come back into the government. One incident that I remember specifically was when the helicopter came in, there were thousands of Vietnamese out there demonstrating against the government. When the chopper landed the negotiators got off and went to headquarters and there they negotiated with the commander. When they got out they got back on the chopper to leave the South Vietnamese, the second lieutenant got in the crowd and took a pistol and shot at the chopper and when he did that all hell broke loose. Someone got him; he cut loose with an M-16 and started cutting up people all kinds of people. But the chopper got out of there and went back to the Nag. In the meanwhile, we were only 109 surrounded by thousands of Vietnamese, troops and civilians. We went back to our compound and the rumors went down to intelligence that they were going to attack the compound and kill all the advisors. We got back there armed, and the S-3 operations officer told us we had to prepare for an attack. The South Vietnamese were going to attack the compound and he was going to go in the street and negotiate with him. In the meantime the South Vietnamese Army was coming from Sauzewae and it was going to move in to rescue as help to get on the run by the Vietnamese. But as it turned out to be the major told us that he was going go out when the crowd came down and talk to them. The word was if they turned left and went to the compound we had to open fire, we did everything we could do because they were going take us out regardless. So what we had were these barbed wire barricades along the perimeter and all kinds of sandbags, we had the works. In the mean time, this is all in one day, here comes these thousands of demonstrators coming down the street and as they come down the street they tore down one of the barbed wire blockades. But instead of turning left to come in the compound, they kept on straight. When they did that everyone was relieved because they knew they weren't going to attack. Because they had word that they had tanks they were going to attack us with so in the mean time we had a marine battalion that was moving in from Pumpa, just moving in not the army but the US marines and they were going support us in the fight against the South Vietnamese Army. They tried to take us out and at that time I had about 45 days to rotate and of course you know I was on pins and needles, needless to say. As it turned out they still demonstrated until the day I 5 �left and we couldn’t use the highways. On my day of rotation they had to bring in choppers and we had to ride the choppers out to process out of South Vietnam to come back to the states. That was one of the incidents but Vietnam as a whole was combat zone. And that's the way it was suppose to be, you knew what you signed up for. So after that deal, I rotated back to Fort Bragg, 82nd Airborne Division and stayed there for about two weeks. Next, I was sent over to Special Forces and I worked over there for about a year. But during the time I was in Special Forces I got appointed to warrant officer from the “Mr. Man.” They had a mission to go to Thailand to give something to the Thai government. I was picked to go to Thailand after certain training and different aspects of the job, which I was going to be instructing. In the mean time an order came around saying I was not to go anywhere unless I can return within 30 days because my appointment said that warrant officers couldn't be there until April and this was in March and that team had to be in Thailand by March. The colonel in Thailand and Special Forces called the Department of the Army got my appointment and sent me to go so I could go on that mission to the 3rd Special Forces in Thailand. In the meantime I stayed there for 54 days as a maintenance instructor on gun, artillery, vehicles, and half tracks; all ordinances equipment. After returning from there I went to Fort Bragg and was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division. I was an auto maintenance technician for the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Battalion in the First Brigade. It was definitely harder being an officer than being an enlisted man because it was challenging. The challenge was at that time the white soldiers didn't want to respect the black officers, like they wanted to respect the white officers. So you really had to get into some messy situations. And you had to demand respect and if every time you turned around there was going to be some kind of complaint about you wasn't doing this and you wasn't doing that but that wasn't the issues some of these old boys just ain't want to take no orders from no black officer or black NCO. In fact, I had a motor sergeant that went to the company commander and told him he couldn’t work for me. And that company commander reassigned that sergeant. But see I want to tell you something see up until that time in the Army, no sergeant could go to the company commander and tell him he did not want to work for no officer and get reassigned. This was strictly racism on that deal. So I went and talked to the company commander and he said, “Well you know he wanted to work for you so, on and so on.” And I said “Why?” And he couldn't tell me why. Anyway, as the story goes on to tell I stayed in that battalion for 18 months from 1967 to ’68, and during that time they sent me up to Fort Knox, Kentucky to motor officer school. I went up there and I stayed for two months. Three months later then I came back to my unit and by the time I came back to my unit I was order to go back to Vietnam. This time I went to Vietnam as a warrant officer and was assigned to the Infantry. First of the 14th Infantry in the First Brigade, in the 4th Infantry Division. I ran into a lot of problems you know, we got shot at and we had soldiers who had all kinds of problems. 6 �We had soldiers that didn't want to do what you tell them. It was a normal Army everyday life. But being an old soldier by that time I had been in the Army, had been in army almost 17 years, I “knew the ropes” in the military, so it wasn't any big deal about it. I had just transitioned from NCO to warrant officer. I stayed there for a year and then they sent me on orders to go to Germany for three years. So instead of going to Germany I extended six months in Vietnam (laughs), and was assigned to the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Bonson in Vietnam. And that's where I run into some more racial problems down in the lower ranks. Due to the fact that the higher ranking people at that time they were squared away. We had a good battalion commander, had good XO, and had good company officers. We had some of those old…a whole lot of NCOs tried to get next to you. But see. I had been in automotive maintenance my entire time in the military, so there wasn't nothing you could tell me, I could tell them. So then again there you had to demand respect. For example, one night I was on duty office and the duty officer…he takes control of the entire brigade during after duty hours and walks the perimeter and all the people within the different units report into him about any kind of attack any kind of incidents. Pertaining to what might be an attack by the VC or Vietcong. I had one unit, I had the mortar platoon and I had got information that there was metal-to-metal contact on bunker 54 and to my knowledge at that time. I thought it would be setting up mortars. Because that's how you set up mortars, you got a metal base and a metal tube. Anyway, I got the information from the outpost. I called into the mortar platoon and requested flares over bunker 52 and I didn't get it. Time was passing I went to find out why we weren't getting fire from the mortar platoon. The mortar platoon told me that the unit they attached to cut off the power so they didn't have any lights for the plotting board where they could plot the grid coordinates on the board to fire the mortars so anyway it was what you call a military intelligence battalion. So I got out of my office and went up to the gate and they wouldn't let me in because it was top secret. I told them get the company commander down there and he came down there and I explained to him they won't turn on the lights and the boys down there don't have no lights and they can't fire the mortars because they can't see the M10 plotting boards you know and the generators weren’t working. He had the nerve enough to tell me that the “good ole boys” from Texas and Alabama, that they were doing this…and I said, “Well, you know what they doing? He said what? You don't want me to use that word do you? DM: Go ahead say what you would like. JM: Well, they were doing these ole boys from Texas and Alabama they were calling the mortar platoon a bunch of niggers. Now you know that is outlandish in a combat situation. Anyway, I got that squared away. But in the mean time we were hit several times with 122 rockets by either the Vietcong or the North Vietnamese soldiers and we had to defend ourselves. Not against a ground attack but against mortar and rocket attacks that sometimes came at numerous occasions. I think it happened about three times when I was there. 7 �They had the 122s and the mortar attacks happened about three times the LZ, which is landing zone north of us. Landing Zone English lost about 75 men in a mortar attack, when they hit us they didn’t get anybody because everybody was fully alerted. I stayed there six months before I left there. Except for the lower ranking people, they tried to give me a hard way to go. Anyway, I came back to the states and my intentions were to go to the operation personnel and find out why I had to go to Germany after I just got through spending 18 months in Vietnam. I got in my Class-A uniform and I went up to OPAL (operations personal) and walked in to see this full bird colonel. I saluted him and said, “Sir why do I have to Germany? He replied that were having a lot of racial problems in Germany. And we needed black officers in Germany. He told me that I was an outstanding officer (laughs) and we need your type in Germany to help quail this racist situation we got going on. Then I asked him if there was any way I can get off those orders. He told me no, I could not. But I could go over there and talk to the warrant officer. I said, “Sir the warrant officer works for you, he is going to do what he is told just like I'm doing what I'm told. He said, “Well, Mr. Mitchell I tell you what you have a good trip.” It came to my attention and saluted him did an about face went on back packed my bags and went to Germany for three years. But man let me tell you, something the type of soldiers in Germany at that time they were nowhere like the soldiers that come in my time. These gentlemen reflected society. Okay, during the Civil Rights era these same individuals came in the military and these boys didn’t take any crap okay. These guys, if an incident happened to a black soldiers 30 or 40 miles away before you know it there would be 100 soldiers from another garrison at that garrison to protest with those soldiers against the incident perpetrated on them by a Caucasian soldier if it was true. And to give you some specific incidents they had what they call in them days a "dap." These young gentlemen would get up and do all these kind of hand signs and clap hands and shake and do all that stuff and they were in a theater one day and they was getting ready for a big field proper. This one soldier got up, which was unheard of, and said to the battalion commander "Why do we have to go to the field just cause you said so?!" (laughs). This was in 1970 and man you could hear a rat pissing on cotton it was so quite you know? And that was so bad but then they all got up and they went through what we called “power check.” They did all this dapping and they said, “Power check.” That was something else I'm serious. In the military back in 1973 in Europe it was a hot bed of racism. Because everybody was getting on it. And the young soldiers in those days is not taking the stuff that the older soldiers and the before generations were taking. Because you don't call them “boy,” you promote them when they suppose to be promoted. You don’t put anybody over them with lesser rank, like they did to me on a couple of occasions. I didn’t take it. In Vietnam they had a big racial problem. There was a big incident when a general went to Vietnam to assess the performance of the military. He found out that the troops in the forward units of the field, they were pretty good but then when you got back to the support units in the rear area there were a lot of racial problems. Racial problems existed when one guys would sing a country song and the 8 �other guy would sing a hip-hop song or whatever you call it, and the words would go out and then there would be a fight. Getting back to Germany, they had several incidents with soldiers rebelled against injustice as far as the military I won't go into each incident because the military takes care of its own. And I pulled three years in Germany by that time I had...23 years in the military. Then I returned from there to Fort Belvoir, Virginia that was a good assignment, it was a happy assignment. The responsibility wasn't as great as being tied up in a combat infantry unit or a air defense unit in Germany, but like I said in Germany, it was a hot bed. Everybody was trained that the Russians were coming across the border, and that's what you were there for to stop, so they ain't take no mess you had to be ready for 24-hours a day, this was during the Cold War. My second time in Germany I was assigned to an Air Defense artillery battalion, which was a missile battalion. A hawk missile battalion, which was designed to shoot down aircraft. I pulled three good years thereafter no problems and I came back to the states and I was flown to Ft Belvoir and stayed up there from 1974 to ‘75 and they called me up one day and wanted to send me to the senior warrant officer's course. I didn't want to go because I was getting close to my retirement. I was thinking about getting out, after 25 years but anyway they told me they would send me to college for two years if I went to the course so I took the course and went down to Alabama and spent six months down there. I left there after six months and went to Korea and spent a year there with the 2nd Infantry Division. I was assigned to a supply and transportation battalion. They had racial problems there but the commander general he nipped it in the bud. So it wasn't too much going on if it was it was undercover. And I will give you an example like all the white troops use to hang out at one bar and all the black troops use to hang out at one bar. They broke that up by doing this what they did was they told each club owner that they had to play so many country western songs, that they had to play, so many jazz songs they couldn't just play one brand of music they had to play music for all the troops. Okay, what was the word they used? It wasn't jazz, not hip hop, it was... DM: Rap? JM: No, let's put it like this…they had country western music and they had soul music. You had to play so much soul music and you had to play so much country music, and there would be no congregation of no one race at no one bar. Everybody go to the same bar otherwise no one went to the bar. At one point they even contemplated everybody putting on uniform to go to town and that broke it up right then, it wasn't no, if there were racial problems it was undercover. Because it was... and it wasn't no wide spread deal. I stayed there from 1976 to ‘77 and returned to the states at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. I returned in February of 1977 and stayed there in a maintenance battalion at Fort Bragg until 31 December 1977. I decided to get out the military at that time due to the fact there was a whole lot of things going on. There were still racial problems and you could tell that the military was a long way from being straightened out. To make a long story short, during my time in the military I saw a total 9 �turnover as far as race problems, a turnover in promotions, and I will give you an example. I was in a unit in Germany as an E-5, a sergeant E-5 for seven years. I was the first black soldier to get promoted to the grade of E-6 in that battalion in six years. We all held down command positions. Motor sergeant, chief of the gun, section chiefs in the artillery batteries which all call for sergeants. Chief of firing battery which call for E-7, chief of the gun, the gun chiefs all called for E-6. And during that time this particular battalion with the hierarchy that had in there it wasn't too many black soldiers getting promoted to a grade above E-5. But then we got a new battalion commander in and he was more along the John F. Kennedy style. He was for justice for all and that was a big change in the military. This was back in 1962 to ‘63. Then things begin to change and people began to get more of what they deserved instead of being politicians trying to politicizing their way up the ranks. But anyway I retired after 26 years 10 months and 26 days at Fort Bragg at S0 3rd Maintenance Company. I got out and to look at my overall military career I say it was a good thing because I had done things in the military beyond my wildest dreams of a man of my education when I joined the military. When I joined the military, I was a high school dropout and I went to school in the military and got a GED, and worked my way from private to chief warrant officer. To provide you an example, I was an E-5 for seven years before I got promoted to grade E-6, but after I got promoted to the grade of warrant officer I got promoted from W1 to W3 in less than five years. I was the top 5%. Telling you that little story will illustrate to you that I was no goof up, that I knew what I was doing but that's just the way it was. The military was a grand thing, it always has been and always will be, it has its problems but the military takes care of its own. And everything gets straightened out. Like I said, to assess the entire situation I would say that I advise any young man that if want something to do and want a challenge I advise him to go ahead and joined the military if he got what it takes. And that's about all I got to say about it. Does that satisfy you? DM: Yes, that's good. Is there anything else you want to talk about? Any regrets? JM: The only thing I have is, you see with being a soldier, you see a young soldier is gullible to a lot of things and there is a couple places around the military installations these people a lot of them don't have your best interest at heart Because to give you a good example. When I came in south in 1954, I was a corporal in the 82nd Airborne Division and made 122 dollars a month base pay, plus 50 dollars a month jump pay that made me 177 dollars. To get the idea that when you're dealing with the civilian population, if you have this idea that everybody is on the up and up is not so and I advise any person who ever been in the military, going in the military, to think about before he commits himself to anyone outside the gate around any military installation before he does some long hard...research. Don't take people's word for it because you have people who say one thing and do another. In the meantime, you have people who would sacrifice their life in Korea. You get tied up with 10 �somebody you don't want to be and its all ties in with being a soldier. I believe now, I got a son in the military which tells me now, and I been reading what General Petreus said how they briefed the soldiers on these financial holes and all these scandalous things that happened to a soldier around these military post, which I think is outstanding. That's about all I have to say about the military except that I have no regrets and if I had to do it all over again I'd do the same thing. I'd like to have a little better education you know, but then I wouldn't of had to go to school in the military (laughs), but other than that I got a good retirement. I have disability that was on me when I joined the military. I went in without any defects, but when I came out that's when I found all these defects. And that all contributed to being a soldier. I didn't ride the sick book. I went to work every day and only went to sick call whenever I had to. I want to bring this to attention, while I was in the military and in Vietnam, I earned three Bronze Stars and didn’t get them for just sitting around. You can do the same thing if you get out there and get with the program. And that’s it. DM: Alright, dad appreciate it. 11 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/91d8a54b5c86514d02cc6163aae2df44.mp3 38d4c534cd12fd61f2af0f4cb04e8bb4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Mitchell, Joseph E. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Mitchell, David Interview Date 10/12/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:01 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. . Tag Army, signal corps, mechanic, NCO, enlisted man, ordinance corps, African American, Fort Jackson, Fort Rucker, Fort Bliss, Korea, Camp Bell Rock, Fort Ord, Army Reserves, 82nd Airborne Division, Germany, Fort Campbell, 101st Airborne Division, Operation Dessert Strike, 322nd Infantry, Vietnam, Special Forces, 325th Airborne Infantry Battalion, Fort Knox, 4th Infantry Division, infantry, Germany, 173rd Airborne Brigade, Vietcong, North Vietnamese, NVA, racial tension, racism, Fort Belvoir, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Bragg, 3rd Maintenance Company, Bronze Star Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Emerson Mitchell, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Korean War, 1950-1953 Mitchell, Joseph Emerson, Sr. Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Joseph Emerson Mitchell, Sr., interviewed by David Mitchell, first enlisted in the United States Army in 1950 at age 17. Mitchell speaks about his experiences serving during both the Korean and Vietnam wars, including stories of the breakdown of segregation and racism in the military. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mitchell, Joseph Emerson Mitchell, David Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 11 pages Language A language of the resource English airborne training army Korean War military mechanic pole line construction race segregation Vietnam War Warrant Officer https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/87ac7bd6ccf07e5ae009c270db827fc9.pdf 7e9d95b7f82946bc394ff0175507291e PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Ben Marsh Unknown location 16 October 2011 AM: Andrew Marsh BM: Ben Marsh AM: This is Andrew Marsh and I am interviewing my grandfather Wilson Benson “Ben” Marsh about his service during the Second World War. The date is October 16th at his house. BM: Okay Andrew, when I was in high school I was rather much attracted to getting specialized training and the Army. There was a program called “ASTRP,” which was Army Specialized Training Reserve Program. AM: Somewhat similar to the Reserve Officer or ROTC programs we have in schools today? BM: Yes, yes it's a very basic form of that. We were qualified to enter the program and they determined I was qualified to enter the program there. And so when I was in high school and joined up, I was a part of the Army Reserve at that time. They assigned me my serial number when I was there, which was a special serial number for a volunteer, which is entirely different from a draft...serial numbers. So I joined the army reserve when I was in high school so that in high school we got a good deal of courses such as first aid, which they wanted the populous of the country. If we got into war...they wanted the populous to have a certain amount of first aid training and so forth to care of the wounded and what have you. So that as soon as I got out of high school they told me to report to Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee and went into the science part of the beginning of the specialized training that they wanted to train us in that location of some the things that may come up in engineering, problems, and things like that…just get us prepared in science there. AM: And this was in 19...? BM: This was in 1944,when I graduated from high school. It was an interesting experience even to travel at that time on a train because the... travelling to Nashville, Tennessee...to say it was crowded was an understatement because...and a goodly portion of the trip there wasn't enough room for me to enter either one of the...passenger cars on the train. I had to spend most of my time...between the cars on the platform with about five other fellows there. The “clinkers” from the steam engine was a problem in my long hair (as an aside my grandfather has worn his hair in a flat-top crew cut for my entire life) I was able to wash it out. AM: What all did you study at Vanderbilt? BM: At Vanderbilt we studied more advanced algebra than I had at high school. I studied the physics, which was a real good course at Vanderbilt, and chemistry, and some of 1 �the history on it. They had a very structured program there. You had a certain time to go to the library and study. We stayed in one ancient dormitory there, which was a very fine dormitory in its day... that was a good course there. As soon as I became of age to become in active duty they called me up to active duty, and told me, it was between semesters, and they told me to report to Fort Bragg for induction into the Army. AM: And when was this? BM: This was in 1945. AM: 1945. BM: 1945 yes. And eventually got out in 1947,I don’t remember the exact date...that was after the war ended. There they give you the serial numbers and most of the shots that you need for protection of wherever you might travel in the world and they had to have hard evidence in their records of health evidence and shots and so forth, they had to have them in front of them the whole time. AM: Now was this basic training or was that… BM: This was in the beginning of the process to go to basic training. In other words a lot of this was done before we went in to training. Down there in transferred to Camp Gordon, Georgia, which is now Fort Gordon, Georgia, for the basic training in infantry warfare. It was a thorough course, the least of which was getting you in shape to do hard physical effort, be it marching, carrying things physically, physical exertion, the accuracy of the weapons that you would use, which was mainly machine guns and most especially rifles. They also would train you in protecting yourself and your own health, because they expected you to be responsible for your own health. The picture was not...pretty if you got sunburned, or frostbitten feet or anything like that, you were responsible for your own physical condition and in situations where you had control of it they expected it. They made no bones about it. You are government property, and you going to do what you are told to do, and you are trained to follow orders as they were. It and its positives...because you knew you were going to wind up in combat so... they gave you training as to handle yourself in hand to hand combat even. They gave you experiences in the field of being actually having weapons fired over your head, even artillery. The artillery that stuck in my mind was a 108-millimeter cannon that shoots a missile over your head and it lands about a hundred yards away and explodes. But the rifle fire was the most interesting because it travels above the speed of sound and it's just a “pop” (snaps fingers), just a sharp crack as it passes over your head and then a few seconds later you hear the boom of the rifle that shot it (chuckles). AM: To you...what was the most difficult part about basic training? BM: The most difficult part in the beginning is getting in shape. The exercises that they put you through were continuous sit-ups, pushups, chinning yourself on it, and endurance 2 �through that and probably the most challenging part of the strength was-that you and about six or eight men got on a tremendous log about eight feet in diameter and say about 12 feet long and you were to life that. AM: Like a telephone pole? BM: Yes, sure, and not a small telephone. AM: Wow. BM: One of the most trying in patience is doing a march with a full field pack...but they knew how to keep your stamina up in it. They would give you a break five minutes out of every hour. AM: Pretty reasonable. BM: It's reasonable, and if they gave you a ten- m i n u t e break you could get a short nap in that. If you were tired (chuckles). But they let you have a break each hour because you can keep your stamina up in that way. And it's remarkable how quick you can do that. AM: So how long was basic training? BM: Basic training was about three months. AM: Three months. BM: It takes you over half of that for you to get into really good physical shape, and the physical shape you cannot let the exercise go down, in it, because you lose part of the physical shape in a week if you aren't active in the exercise that means something. They taught you health issues, that you were to take care of your skin, not get it sunburned, take care of your feet. You were to change your shoes and your socks on a regular basis every day in n hot weather. How to use the close combat in which your ammunition is not effective or its too dangerous to your own side to use live ammunition when you had to use bayonets the butt of the rifle or whatever in hand-to-hand combat. It was even to the point to where veterans to train us that had been in combat and some of the things they could tell you about was to give you examples of some of the things that you needed to be aware of. For instance, they would sit down in a place, on the ground, and say that I want you to come up behind me just to where I can't see you, I'm going to keep my vision straight ahead and I can see 90 degrees each side. I want you to come up on me and touch me before I can point to you. That's a good challenge, in dry sand that's not too bad, but you get in grass, that’s a different issue. How to use a weapon is interesting, how do you shoot it for accuracy, and above all you are to take care of that and you don't find any rust in that rifle or on it anywhere, you keep the bore cleaned out and oiled, so that there’s no powder residue in it. 3 �We went on maneuvers where we would do exercises on that. We would dig foxholes, we'd have to camouflage things, and the main issue there is to break the outline. As long as you got on dull clothing and so forth you could break the outline, you're virtually invisible, as long as you don’t move too fast. They expose you to the experience that they had had in training that the government on a long-term basis would determine what was necessary to help you survive and accomplish. None the least of which they went in to the ethics of battle. That sounds crazy, but there are certain things in the Geneva Convention to have some civilization in warfare as possible. for instance, your job was to disable, the enemy, not necessarily to kill him, but just to disable him. They surprisingly respected that, now the Japanese they were a separate case. I won't go into that. At least in the European Theater both sides respected the Geneva Convention very nicely, from some of the propaganda you wouldn’t think that, but the Germans did fairly decent job of operating within it. For instance, the main thing was that they said in no uncertain terms, you do not alter the ammunition that we hand you to use period, and we're serious on that. Because, most of you guys that come from the country down here know that when you go on out squirrel hunting you would rather have a hollowed out bullet to put in that rifle. Because a squirrel, you can shoot him full of holes and he'll keep going but, you take a hollow-point bullet and that bullet explodes inside the squirrel once i t goes inside the skin, and it's obvious you're out to kill someone when you do that. And both sides we have complete agreement that if you discover that ammunition on any soldier and he's still living, you're welcome to execute him right there. AM: Wow. BM: In other words, neither one if same time, you capture him you're going to treat him right; you’re going to give him medical care and medical help, if the situation allows it. Your job is to disable as many of them as you can. AM: So what was the next step, after basic training? BM: Next, out of basic training they determined...where are the chances are that we are going to need these people from this particular company. In my case, the war was winding down. By that time I finished basic training the Germans had already given up, and while they gave us a break between the next training session. They sent you home for a couple weeks, have a furlough until they took you to the next training step. The next step for us was that we were going to invade mainland Japan; we were going to be the first wave of replacements. They expected a lot of losses to such an extent where the experts told President Truman you’re going to give the order on this, but here on the consequences of the two. If we go in there and invade the mainland of Japan, it is probably going to take a quarter of a million men dying, to take that homeland. Now the reason they 4 �sent us there to that type of warfare was that we were going to have to go house-to-house and cleaning out Japan. We realized that that was the case from them fighting on the various islands there. It'd take house by house to clean it out because they did not give up. Now that’s the majority of them, course there were exceptions. We were to go there and to be trained in that plus additional jungle warfare. Jungle warfare is entirely different from straight out cross-countryside...house-to-house combat is a different issue also. AM: Now, did the war end before you went to do this? BM: They were transferring us to Fort Rucker, Alabama. AM: Okay. BM: But now while I was on furlough home, they dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan and Japan gave up, so. When we got to Fort Rucker the instructions were put them on a troop train send them to the west coast, we're going to start relieving everybody that's been in combat over there in stages. Four years, three years, one year, and we'll let you know when you going to send the one year home. Now when we got to Fort Ord, California, now that was the main debarkation-staging zone, they would go to San Francisco and debark on troop ship to the Pacific. When we go down there to Fort Ord, California, the powers that be in t he headquarters company, about 1200 people they got to looking at the orders and said hey, three quarters if not 90 percent of the people we got in headquarters down here been in there at least two years, we’re going to disappear “poof” like that! What in the world are we going to process the other half a million that's going to be pouring through here to do that? So they went down the line...hey what’s this guy's taken in school? They ran across my service record and said "Hey, he's got two years of typing in high school, hey come here!" [Laughs] AM: So you got put in headquarters company? BM: Yes. AM: And this was in San Francisco? BM: No, this was in Fort Ord, California. AM: Fort Ord okay. BM: We staged them, got all their records together, make sure their shots were ready, and they had the training and so forth, and training was not much of an issue at that time. You were just a body that was in the army to go over there, and they trained them when they got over there if they had to. They would rather them have training here, but if they had to they would train them over there. The rest of the time that I spent in the Fort Ord was doing clerical work, and helping with the physical and paper work to help the men get collated into numbers and groups of companies of people to put on the train in Monterey and Pacific Groves there to go to the pier side in San Francisco to get on the troop ship there. It was 5 �cushion job, But I enjoyed every minute of it because it's a fantastic place to go out on your leave time to see what was going on in the countryside. One of the more interesting things was the in your time off go to the little USO there in Carmel California (chuckles) and you'd go in there and some of the local people in there would say "Hey you want to go somewhere? Yeah! I want to go up 17-mile drive, you going up Delmar as far? He says yeah sure!" That's one of the scenic areas there...the local people, you'd never s e e more than 10 people in the USO over there because it's small. Not many people knew about it, we in headquarters, some of us knew about it and they would put on a show almost any time for the troops there. One of the more interesting things there was going to Santa Cruz up there. This was mainly run by the Navy and the Marines, they had a tremendous hospital in which the badly wounded were brought in there to recoup, put on prostheses, things like that for them...nurse them back to where they could be medically discharged. They had a big pavilion there down on the waterfront there that the USO and local people would put on shows for them. None the least of which were the hospital people that were in the hospital they had some people that would put on shows themselves. They had lost a leg or an arm or something like that, and they would get out there and put on shows. This was mainly aimed at the new people, wondering what am I going to do with the rest of my life, one of the most interesting things that I saw there, and this was all psychology, they prepped you psychologically for about anything, they'd get the big bands to come locally, ship them overseas and they'd go to combat zones. And this was part of the morale that was built up in the troops. You see remnants of it now with Bob Hope and the others, but they would send Arty Shaw and Glenn Miller and all of the comedy shows. The comedy shows were the greatest. One of the funniest ones was the “hell's-a-poppin' show.” They would pull al kinds of jokes. In the Santa Cruz, the local thing was to make a statement was "kids you’re not too bad off". One of the guys that didn't have his prosthesis on yet, he'd come in on crutches and they'd start a boogie-woogie tune and he would dance to that, and the jitterbug he had a 13 year old girl that he'd have come out, and trusted him enough to where he could sling her all around, and he only had one leg! (Chuckles) AM: Wow, that's impressive! BM: So, you get an idea of how the morale was kept up in it so that even overseas they had always had movies at night, even if you’re in the boondocks in the middle of the jungle. And in fact, they show some of the Japanese were more human than most of them were, at night sometimes in some of these locations, they would start the movie in there after dark, and in same of these fringes Japanese would show up just to see the movie. Neither one of them, the Japanese or Americans were interested in fighting so they just let them be there. Neither one of them carried their weapons in there and knew the Japanese didn't carry, they weren't interested in starting anything and neither were we. They were the exception, when they got into a fight...they would conquer or die. It was rough, but there was always human side, now it is the nastiest business you have ever seen in your life. There is no mercy in some cases, unless you are disabled to where you can't continue. Bath sides tended to have mercy an 6 �you, as much as the situation permitted and yes unfortunately the situation in which you can't do that to accomplish the job and protect your own self, you have to do what's necessary. In other words fight. Now I have been rambling on. AM: It's all right! BM: After Fort Ord, California, they transferred me to Fort Worden, Washington, which is in the edge of Seattle. AM: How long were you in Fort Ord? BM: At Fort Ord, I was in there for about six months and I was in about three to four months up in Seattle, Fort Worden. I never did get used to waking up at three o'clock in the morning and the sun was already up (laughs). It was good duty both places, in the outfit I was in. we had good supervision, encouraging supervision. One of the most interesting things I ever ran into up there was privy to know information that wasn't publicized in any way, because at that time the press still in this country was recognizant of you keep the morale up of everyone in the country. One time we were up on a long weekend pass up there in Vancouver and we came chugging back in Monday night, in through the main gate, and the guard was surprised to see any soldiers coming in and they said "Where in the world have you guys been? Well, we’ve been up in Vancouver what’s wrong?" Well, he said, they called it a riot between races downtown. You can imagine what they called it. But he said everybody’s either in jail downtown or in the brig here that we could get their hands on. In other words everybody’s on lockdown, they said "well oh okay come on in then" (laughs). The interesting thing in there was one time we been in almost a year in headquarters we didn't have to march, carry a weapon or anything else for about a year. And [chuckle] headquarters was told by the commanding general "You are going to put a full company of men down there, in a parade downtown. They said what?? They said Admiral Bull Halsey is coming in here and were going to show him how the Army does It!” And he was in the Navy! AM: And this was in Seattle, near Seattle? BM: Near Seattle Washington, yes. Well we said okay, all right. But we got down there in that parade and we were in the middle, halfway between a Caucasian race band in front of us, and an African American band equal distance behind us. And the cadence that the guys could hear in the front was entirely different from the cadence that the AfricanAmericans were setting back there. And so up there in the front they were doing this ( taps out a slow steady rhythm with his hands) and the one in, the back sped up this motion up a lot. AM: (Laughing) So the column was running into itself? BM: And the rest of us in the middle were wondering what do we do? Go back to the 7 �plowboys cadence or what? (Laughing) the remarkable thing about it, we got along between all the races in the armies and services too. The morale was such that everybody in the whole country says we got a job to do and let's get on it. The other sections, the other things that I'd really like to talk with you about it is how the civilians did, had to do, and how they were organized but that’s another issue. There's a difference between the benefits that we had coming out of that forced entry as opposed to the pay for being a soldier now. Now both of them had the benefits, but there was not anything that replaced the benefit level that they gave us coming out of the army after the Second World War. AM: Meaning the GI Bill? BM: GI Bill. Yes. So that...part of the duty was tough, but basically I enjoyed the thing. The interesting people, yes it was tough at times with the training, but it was survival. The morale issue was never let down...they encouraged the morale all the way through it, and you were prepared for...you were convinced that you could take care of yourself in certain circumstances as long as you helped them around often. And that's one reason...you were given the understanding that you had to take care of yourself until the medics get there if you get hurt. In some cases that's no little issue at times. But training was good, it was thorough. Now, one thing I'd like to say warfare at that time has no bearing on the warfare is now. The psychology is entirely different, and the soldiers are different, because they choose now, we didn't have a choice then. Now the population and the condition of the country was controlled entirely so that both could work together. AM: So, the program that you were in high school...did you sign up for the program and then enlisted in the Army or were you drafted? BM: I expressed an interest in joining the Army. My parents did not want me to sign up for anything other than the Army. They knew more about the services than I did at that time. I expressed an interest in joining the ASTRP program, they said come up here to the name of the airport here in town, it was named for the first guy that had died in the Second World War, that was local, I'll think of it in a minute...they said report to the army doctors at I get the name of the airport in a bit AM: And this was in Marshville? (his hometown) BM: This was in Marshville, they told me to come to Charlotte, get on the bus and go out to the airport out there and there were doctors out there that would go over you and see if you were physically qualified to enter the services. They gave me...those test, called me and told me to come back in two days and they said..."how many cokes did you drink the day before you came up here?" I said "About six or seven" and they said, you don't drink any coke and you come back in two days. Well, I had too much sugar in my blood you see? AM: I see. 8 �BM: and they said all right, welcome to the ASTRP! AM: So you were never drafted? BM: No, I was not drafted. I signed up myself. As it turned out, it was a good thing because if you had a serial number starting with a one, the first thing they did always, and everybody in the Army that was in a position of authority...they looked at your serial number to begin with, so many of them were long term army people that they treated you different. And it showed up in a lot of places, believe me. Now it is different now because they hire you to be a soldier. Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of reasons to go ahead and join the army because you get benefits that you can't get any other way quicker. So I don't quarrel with that... Just a matter of fact they had to have millions of people out of this country to go to war (long pause) I don't know if I answered the question? AM: You did. I feel like you did...when did you leave the service? BM: I left the service in.... I believe it was in August and the reason I remember was the first session at North Carolina State had already started, and I wanted to go into North Carolina State as quick as I could. And I got home too late to enter the first session of the year. AM: And this wan in 1947? BM: Yes, 1947 I believe. I'd have to back-check it. I went in to the January start of that, and went in to engineering yes. To answer your question what did I study in high school it was a general thing, from history to civics to science, which included chemistry along with the science issues (sigh) something on nutrition was in it, I don't remember what the name was, English, and typing. AM: And then mixed in with that was the program. BM: Now I didn't start the program until they told me to report to Vanderbilt University. AM: Oh okay, so the program that you were in was after high school at Vanderbilt, okay. BM: They waited on the next session to begin before they told me to report there, report about a week ahead of the beginning of the first session. And after one session I aged up to report for active duty. Another reason that they grabbed me so quick was that the battle of the bulge in Europe had gotten out of hand to our side. And it scared the living daylights out of the whole country really. We thought we were winning it, but the Germans broke through. And ... they sent everybody into the services at that time whether they were physically qualified or not, it scared them that much. It's an interesting time to be in, we were actually scared, the whole country was. Did I answer the question? 9 �AM: Yes, absolutely. So, just to sum up your service you went to Basic training in Georgia, and the war ended right after you got out of basic... BM: The war ended in Europe before I finished basic, Franklin D. Roosevelt died, and Truman became president when I was still in basic training. AM: And then the Japanese surrendered. BM: The Japanese surrendered soon after that after Truman had said okay what are the consequences of us using the atomic bomb, they had been working on the atomic bomb, we don't know how long because some of the things that were happening here in the country... they were having to put so much effort and copper tubing copper wasn't available in this country for a long time because they were building the facilities over at Oak Ridge there. None of us knew why but that was the case and once they tested the atomic bomb over there in the west they came up to Truman and say all right, we're going to have to invade the mainland of Japan. He says all right, what are the consequences. He says use it, after he heard course the rest is history. It's a nasty way to end the war, but it saved a lot of lives believe me. They lost a lot there, but not nearly as many as it would take us to take the country. That's basically it, come on with more questions that'd be fine. AM: Something I've been wondering, at the time were you relieved that you weren't going to see front line combat? BM: Well, oddly enough not really, I never even thought about it. I know that's crazy to sound, but they steeled your nerves really well. They know your chances, you know your chances and your family knows your chances. And the only way that you have...they have taught me to take care of myself in about all situations. And that’s all you had to go on really. So It depends on the circumstances you were in whether you had a chance to live or not... in the pacific it was worse than it was in Germany and Europe. AM: If you could pick two or three things that stand out the most to you...I guess the best memories of your service, what would they be? BM: The characters that I met in it either in the services or in the periphery areas, such as the shows that they put on for morale. It would be hard to pick, I think the thing that I loved in Fort Ord was the capability to see what was going on in the west coast. The top duty of anybody would choose in California and especially in Monterey Bay there would be to be on the two P.T. boats that were stationed there to rescue people out there in the ocean! (Both laugh) They'd sit back cooling their heels and enjoy Monterey, Pacific Grove... AM: Getting a suntan? BM: The bottom line was, I don’t have any bad memories about serving. Now I was lucky don’t get me wrong. I was young enough to where I never faced combat, and I saw some of the ones that came back they were severely distorted from being in it. I roomed with a 10 �fellow at North Carolina State that had been in combat four years in the European Theater. Due to a technical problem part 1 ended here, I tried to pick up where we left off in part two AM: Before the recording stopped, you were talking about a roommate of yours an North Carolina State that had served for four years in active combat in Europe, do you want to continue with that? BM: Sure, I'd love to. He was by that time...considerably older than I was, he was from eastern North Carolina out there, from the area of Chocowinity and Greenville and so forth. He had been in combat so long out there...but he was one of the five percent that wasn’t hurt in the war. He was put up in hospital there in London, England, and I don't remember what he was in there for, but one of the incidents and this was when the abuzz bombs" were still raining down in London, before the V-2's. The buzz bombs, you could hear them coming, and some cases see them passing over and certainly if they were heading towards you they can see it. Surprisingly they weren't very fast at all but they were highly effective. They had no idea where they were going to hit, they just knew just about the range it would be to fall on London or in the area. Anyway he was telling about an incident there in which one of the guys he knew was up there...in the bed. One of his buddies had come around there to visit him there and the guy that was in the bed...Avery was his name. That his friend was standing there and looking out the window, and the guy in the bunk said the last thing he said he heard the buzz bomb was coming...and it's coming in this window. He started running for the door and the thing hit, the concussion blew him through the door, took the door off its hinges, it didn't kill him but it blew him through the door there. He was about two stories away from the blast zone there. After that incident I suppose the...the noise or the shaking of the dormitory, the dormitory actually shook when a train passed by on the train tracks out there. And in the middle of the night if he was asleep he'd have a nightmare, when that train came by. Otherwise he didn't seem to have any postt ra um at i c stress syndrome, I mean after a while I guess you get used to it. He was still a real nice guy, you know wasn't mean and would treat you with respect...that issue aside morale was a tremendous thing that was kept out of contingency. The movies that were put out were propaganda or morale issues, one of the things is that if you want to downgrade someone you have to start poking fun at them. One of the most popular movies was the great dictator, and of all the scrapes he could get in to he got into a German anti-aircraft gun...he started cranking the thing trying to get it into position trying to shoot some aircraft down, it wound up with him upside down fell out on the ground (chuckles). AM: Now the great dictator was that with Charlie Chaplin? BM: No, that was...I don’t know who the main character was...you might be able to look it up 11 �online. That was a great thing, of course the entertainment that we sent. Course they always had dancing girls, and singing girls and Bob Hope and comedians and big bands, they were given transportation and donated their time to it. They had their shows in the training camps here, and even the “ hell's a poppin' show” from Broadway was a comedy scene too. They had off- color humor, they never swore but they came close to it...also Spike Jones, he was a comedian. His orchestra had fantastic musicians, but they can tear it up so bad. Morale was great, the news report always were controlled so tightly and the things so secretive in some places, to find out. For instance...even the interpersonal actions of the commanders of the European Theater of the time there was one period in which they tried to get control of General Patton, they tried to cut off his supplies. His theory was when you get a man out of a foxhole you don't give him a chance to dig another one, as long as the gasoline holds out go after him. Everybody said await a minute we've got to give the English general a chance to get a little pat on the back out of this deal" but George Patton was running so far ahead of everybody that sometimes in order for allied supreme headquarters to figure out where Patton was they'd have to listen to the Germans and radio traffic to determine where Patton was. He was a leader, but not a leader. He would say to his men, and they respected him, they’d die for him and they knew he'd die for them too. But anyway, he was a type of leader, in quotation marks, he’d say this is the job to be done, go out there and do it. The average commander thought that to cross this river out here it would take us about three or four days to plan the job and about three or four more days to cross it. Patton went there and said, "Hey guys we going to go out there and cross that river up there and get it done." In a couple days they'd have it done, start moving his tanks and troops across it in two days time. He didn't play politics, not at all. He's an interesting character, he had a severe learning disability, and he memorized everything. The reputation he had was that he studied maps of the terrain and he studied military history where he knew what ever battles that had been fought in this territory before him, he knew what the successes were and what the failures were. That's in that different books there, it took a lot of effort. If you want to go in to what it took for this country to actually do that here on this ground I'll be glad to, but it’ll take even more time to do it. AM: I think we'll talk about that.... BM: Don't get me wrong...if you get everybody in the country behind something at that point in time we could out-produce anyone in the world, and we could do it quicker than anyone else in the world. AM: We can talk about that more some other time. BM: Okay, that would be fine. I’ve enjoyed it. I didn't get overseas at that time. AM: I've got a few more questions if that's all right. 12 �BM: Sure, that'd be fine. AM: Did you serve with anyone that was from your hometown? BM: No, I didn't because I started out in the Army in which it was just a group of guys and they'd say hey, I believe we'd want them at the technical end of what we need out here, and I went to Vanderbilt at that time and they almost exclusively at that time they trained science end of the training, and they were training doctors at the speed of which you wouldn’t believe. Get guys just out of high school and he's made top grades all the way. Okay you're going to be a doctor, come on to Vanderbilt, and put you through. And when they finished when them, they went to combat zone. Did I answer the question? AM: Yes. Have you kept up with any of the people you served with? BM: No, I have not, regrettably. I didn't have any means to do it, and at that time I wasn't much interested in doing it. I knew of the reputation of some of them...some of them were undoubtedly quite successful. Part 2 ends here, Part three concludes the interview. AM: Well, I think about wraps it up, I really appreciate that you came and sat down and took some time to sit down with me and talk about your experiences. BM: I welcome the opportunity because I haven't thought about some of these things in quite some time. I was privileged to be present in a time in which this country went through great changes and so forth, and to see what a country can accomplish if you get everyone behind it. Now yes, there were dissidents, but there were nice things for them to help with the effort. For instance if you were a conscientious objector they were allowed to go into firefighting school and gave parachute training and you'll fight forest fires. And what the Japanese were doing to the west coast is another issue, and they needed the firefighters b i g time to help with that. You've probably heard in the news reports what's going on at that time. But we were instructed in no uncertain terms...that if you know of a forest fire out here you don't tell anybody (laughs). AM: Wow, that's interesting. BM: There were certain things you didn't talk about anywhere. The populace, and what the populous went through that's a different subject, I didn't go into that. AM: That's fine, and I'd love to talk to you about it, but I'm not sure if that's... BM: That is a total study in what people can do, when they have to. 13 �AM: Well, thank you very much; I appreciate it! BM: You're quite welcome Andrew; it's been a pleasure. 14 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5ababfab0a4a1ef7d6999bdca1bd186a.mp3 ff5f3400c897f17526a13e1640b1ce79 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Marsh, Wilson Benson Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Marsh, Andrew Interview Date 10/16/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:28 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Army, Army Reserve, Vanderbilt University, Fort Bragg, Camp Gordon, infantry, Fort Rucker, Fort Ord, Fort Worden, Marshville Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wilson Benson Marsh, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource World War II, 1939-1945 Benson, Wilson Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource William Benson Marsh joined the Army Reserve in High School, 1944. The interview talks about his service during World War II, the USO shows to entertain the troops, basic training, and the dropping of the atomic bomb. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Marsh, Wilson Benson Marsh, Andrew Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English Army Specialized Training Reserve Program Fort Bragg Geneva Convention GI Bill Vanderbilt https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2c6f0108d3a44c41a7f922cba4408970.pdf bb5ab50058ac7a03176c5a311b3e7ea3 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Ralph Lerch Boone, North Carolina 15 October 2011 BC: Benjamin Chappell RL: Ralph Lerch BC: My name is Benjamin Chappell, and I'll be conducting this interview for Military History. I am interviewing Mr. Ralph Lerch who is a Vietnam War veteran and pilot for the US Air Force. We're at Boone airport. Today is October 15th at about 3:00 in the afternoon. He understands that we're conducting this interview as part of my Military History class for a project I have to do for that. So, Mr. Lerch, why don't you tell me a little bit about where you were born, how you were raised...things like that. RL: I Was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1935. I was raised during World War Two, matter of fact it was...let's see, I was ten years old when it ended and when I was 15 the Korean War started, but I was too young to get in that one. I went to a high school in Brooklyn, New York where I where I studied aviation and aviation design or aircraft design and at some point during that four years in high school, I decided instead I’d rather fly them than work on them. So, at the age of, let's see I was 19...I took the test for the Aviation Cadets, which was a program available in those days for people who did not have college or did not go to an academy. Passed the exams, and in March of 1955 I joined the United States Air Force as an enlisted man because I had been waiting and waiting for a call to get into the program but the Korean War was over and I guess they didn't need people as much as they did a few years prior to that. So I thought by joining up, I could get into the program quicker. So I went through basic training and right after basic training they gave me an assignment to Aviation Cadet Program. I got into the Aviation Cadet Program, went through the preflight. Went to Marietta, Florida to start my flying training, and shortly after I started training I took off one day in a T-6 and the engine quit. My flight career came to a sudden abrupt end around a tree. So and after the next...year and a half...I went back to an enlisted status. Primary reason that I couldn't get back in was that I had a pin in my leg and they wouldn't let me back in the program till the pin was removed. It took a little over a year to get that out. After that they made me take all of the exams again which I did. Passed them again, took a physical again, and passed that again and then eventually got back into the Aviation Cadet Program. This time I finished it and went through it graduated as, oh I forgot exactly what they call it. I was at the top of my class basically and I was offered a regular commission in the United States Air Force, which I took. And the rest of my career from that point on was kind of varied. I flew large transports. I worked on Atlas missiles. I was in the radar business for a while, long-range radar. Ended up flying helicopters and at the end of my career ended up at Andrews Air Force 1 �Base and what was supposedly a weather wing...but I really think it was a branch of the CIA or something cause they did an awful lot of wild stuff. So, that...is the short and dirty version. BC: Okay, so you said that you got into flight school at a early age on, upon completion of high school, you got into aviation. What made you first want to get into aviation? What made you first want to join that with the military? RL: Well, I was always intrigued by aircraft and during the war living on Long Island you would see an awful lot of airplanes all the time, and I knew everyone of them, you would see the P-40s and the P-38s and the P-47s go by and the B-25s and they were all going on their way over to Europe. So I always thought man, it would be really neat to be, be in one of them, but I never had the uh I don’t self confidence I guess you could call it to think that I could end up being a flyer, uh but anyway so I really didn't think about that so much later on and I was about 17 when this aviation cadet program came to light and at that time, that was one of the primary methods of becoming a flyer. Nowadays everything is through the academies or the ROTC programs in college. So... BC: Okay. RL: So in short I was one of the dumber ones cause I never did go to college. BC: Well, you still got a commission, and you came out as a major? RL: That’s correct. I made major. BC: Okay. You said you were in the weather wing, was that during Vietnam? RL: No. BC: What kind of aircraft? RL: In Vietnam I flew the C-124s. BC: Okay. RL: Large four-engine cargo aircraft. BC: Okay. RL: Primarily what we did in country was haul things that the C-130s couldn’t carry. Anything that a C-130 couldn’t take, we would take. BC: Okay. 2 �RL: And it was the first time that we really used the aircraft for what it was designed to do. It was big, big cargo, large pieces of cargo. That the airplane could go on very short fields. We used to haul gun carriages, trucks, buses...all kinds of things that wouldn’t fit into a C-130. BC: Okay, so was the mission set limited to bigger runways than what the C-130 could get into? RL: No, we could go into anything a C-130 could go in to. BC: Oh, okay. RL: That was no problem. BC: So you just had more horsepower? RL: Well, it was just a bigger, a bigger envelope basically. BC: Yes. RL: The, the 130 had a lot more power than we had probably but, but we could carry the larger items than would fit into a 130. BC: Okay. I understand. So in Vietnam how much contact did you have with NVA (North Vietnamese Army) or anything like that? RL: To my knowledge I never saw one. They might have been around, you know. Might have had contact but they, they never effected me any, because if you were to go on crew runs there would be Vietnamese all around you but you didn't know whether they were good guys or bad guys. So, in that respect I never did any actual combat as such. We weren’t gun soldiers you know, we were just hauled the stuff. BC: Right, but did you ever have any like fighter escorts from Phantoms or anything like that? RL: No. BC: Okay. RL: Close as I ever got we were on one mission, which was just prior to the incursion into Cambodia. Now we hauled large gun carriages up to a very small place up in what they called the Parrots Beak, and we were loading these things and the Army guys were going with us. And the Army fella said "You guys got any weapons?" We said, "No, we haven’t got any weapons." So they said, "Man, you're crazy for going into that area that was VC (Viet Cong) controlled." So that was the first and I think only time that the C-124 was armed and what the Army guys did was they took the back doors, laid them sideways and they mounted Browning machine guns up on top of them just in case we had…I don't know what they were thinking...in case somebody was shooting at us...figured they could shoot back at least. 3 �BC: All right. RL: They figured they could shoot back at least. So that was about as close as I ever came to any kind of armed conflict the stuff was all around you all the time and I'm sure they shot at us…but I never got hit some of the guys in our outfit did, but I never did. BC: Right. Okay, so in knowing you, I've heard you talk a little bit about the Distinguished Flying Cross. The Distinguished Flying Cross is a metal for pilots in the Air Force and Army that distinguished themselves; its pretty much like a silver cross for pilots, aviators...you know you uh...distinguish yourself for a courageous act in combat aviation. Can you talk to me a little bit about the difference between getting one then in 1960s-70s era and like getting one like today? RL: Well, in Vietnam, here's a good example…that mission I just told you about where we went up in there into the Parrot's Beak. We went up there and it was myself and that another guy, we had two aircraft. We shuttled back and forth, flew in there a couple of times. We flew bulldozers in and gun carriages in and the bulldozers were to dig the holes, and they'd put the gun carriages in the holes. About a week after that the whole 101st Airborne went up there and some of our headquarters guys went in there and they got the DFC for getting in there. We never got squat. So they had those things out, you know hap hazardless. And its really inflated I’ll give you a good example. The guys that went on the Tokyo Raid in World War Two received it. BC: Yes, that's right, Doolittle’s Raid. RL: The Doolittle Raiders, Jimmy Doodle got the Congressional Medal of Honor and the rest of the crews got the DFC. Now, if you want to compare that those DFC's were for what they did compared to what they were handing them out for in Vietnam, there's no comparison. A lot of guys in Vietnam got them just because they were there so long. Not because of anything they really did. You know you get like 20 missions up north or something you'd get a DFC. Primarily because you survived that long. BC: Right. RL: Look, it was kind of a stupid war, lets face it. BC: Yeah, kind of a stupid war. And that's pretty much the sentiments among all of the guys in your command? RL: Well, I don't know about all of them, but it sure was mine. BC: Okay. RL: So, and I was pretty outspoken about it and its probably why I got passed over the first time. 4 �BC: Right. Yes, it's a big problem. As you were growing up in Brooklyn, you said that you got into a flight school, traversing back into your earlier years, you got into flight school but you said you crashed a T-6 or something like that? RL: That's right. BC: So they kicked you off the flight list for crashing? What was the whole deal with that? RL: They kept me on for three months...after the crash they hold you as a cadet. You know paperwork wise for a period of time, but this injury took too long to heal. I broke my thigh. Which is, you know a big bone so it took a long time to heal. BC: Right. RL: So well as long as that pin was in me, they call that a cruse and a nail, and they put it in threw your hip and shove it down threw the middle of your bone…I think they put it into your hip they shove it down into the middle of the bone. I think as long as that thing was in me they were afraid that if I ever broke it again I would really get. BC: Right. RL: It would really mess the bone up bad so they wouldn’t let me back till that thing was removed. So...that was why it took so long. BC: Okay, and I had another question about your training. You said for the later part of your career you were in what was supposed to be a “weather wing,” but you had a little bit of feeling that it was something else going on…could you tell me anything? RL: Oh yes...they were fooling around with urn. It was the first of the satellites in what we were trying to do. BC: What was that unit? RL: It was the 6th Weather Wing. BC: 6th Weather Wing. BC: Okay. RL: Had something like 28 PHDs in it or something, something really wild outfit. But they were doing things like…primarily a lot of satellite work and what they were working on were…trying to get an area. For example, Vietnam was over but if you wanted to look at a area real time, we were starting to work with satellites...and the camera systems. BC: Okay. 5 �RL: Where they can actually...the field commanders could order up an area? For example, if they wanted to target something the satellites would target a specific area and we would get photographs of that real time. So these guys could actually look at what was there at the time that they were going go prior to takeoff. BC: What year was this? RL: This was in 1974. BC: Wow, I had no idea. Well, as a future Army aviator, on track as it is right now, what is the one piece of advice that you would give me to carry forward in my career? RL: Keep your opinions to yourself. If you don’t follow with the company line...don't shoot your mouth off because it doesn’t pay off in the long run. In Vietnam there was a lot of guys that just got really kind of outspoken against it...and I always thought it was stupid and said so. I thought we would have been much better off if we'd dropped TV sets and bags of rice and Honda motorcycles on them instead of bombs. They probably would have quit a long time ago. And as a result of all that that we did we lost 58,000 guys and the end result was the same. They took over the place though so… BC: Right. Yes. RL: What did we gain? We just spent 10 years over there beating our brains out. We lost anyway, so... BC: We were talking in class a couple a days ago about what keeps soldiers motivated. What do you think was the implications of, you know, what you said was going on what you said the uh the end result being the same. What do you think? How do you think that impacted your squadron’s morale? How do you think that changed their will to fight? Was it more of like a camaraderie? RL: Camaraderie had a lot to do with it, and its mission accomplishment still, and I think that goes true in any military unit. You end up wanting to do the job as best you can, even thought the big overall picture you might not agree with it. If you’re told to…guys in Vietnam, I mean the grunts, I always admired them. I mean they were told to take a stupid hill and they’d go take it. Three days later they were told get off the hill and they’d go back off the hill this kind of thing went on and on but still the morale was pretty high. They always tried their best. I don’t know...from my personal view, I always enjoyed going in where the Marines were. The Marines always seemed to have the highest degree of...oh, I don’t know what you would call it, “gung ho-ness” or whatnot. But, like if you took a load into a Marine base they have you unloaded and turned around in no time. But if you just you’d go in other places like where the Air Force were, ground crews would take forever and they would goof off and there was...it was just…it wasn't the same. BC: Right. 6 �RL: Plus, the whole system was screwy. I give you good example. I was in Saigon one night. There was a C-133 sitting in front of me and they were getting ready to go to Clark Air Base. BC: Which is where? RL: In the Philippines. Four-hundred miles...no 800 miles across the pond. But anyway, the traffic people came and said, "Hey can you take a load back to Clark?" I said "Sure." He said, "Somebody made a mistake and we ended up with 200 and something desks." Somebody put a decimal place in the wrong place I guess or something. So they was this huge pile of military, of GI desks, metal desks in crates. So they started to load all these crates, as many as they could get on me and they were loading the airplane up. And I said, "Hey, how come you don’t put desks on that C-133 in front of me? They're going to the same place, see there going to Clark too." And then they said, "Oh, because they’re industrially funded.” And I said "What?!" He told me, “Well, your aircraft is not industrially funded and they’re industrially funded.” Now, this is one of McNamara's little puppets…was something to do with the way the military was funded and they was supposed to be like we were working on a paying basis. Since that aircraft in front of us would charge the Army or whoever it was that had the desks they couldn’t do that, but since we were kind of an offshoot outfit or something, whatever you want to call it we weren’t funded the same way they were. We could haul the desks back but they couldn't. Now that just shows you the stupidity of the system. Now here we are fighting a war and the fact that it was desks. It could have been anything. It could have been ammunition or whatever but this kind of stuff went on all the time. BC: Yes. RL: Another example of the same stuff went back to Hawaii for what they called “block training.” And every year we would have to go back and you go into the simulator and you go through the simulator program and escape an evasion and all of this kind of thing. Well, it was my time to go home, so I went down to the traffic office, and went to get a seat on a airplane, get back to Japan and they said "Oh well, you'll have to wait for a transient reserve airplane to come through. I said, "Why? "There's all kind of, you know there's Braniff going out of here, there's Pan Aro going out of here...everybody and there, you know there is all kinds of airplanes leaving." "Well, your outfit is not industrially funded, and all these other airplanes are industrially funded so I'll have to put you on an not industrially funded airplane." So I sat around in Hawaii for an extra three days until a Reserve C-124 came through and I got on that and flew. Took another day and a half to get back to where I was going. BC: Right. Well, a lot of corruption in the system. RL: It's just stupid. 7 �BC: Yes. RL: Like you said, you express yourself to somebody. And say you know, "What in the hell are we doing?" Well, then you’re a bad boy. BC: Yes. RL: Your not with the program, you’re a trouble maker. BC: Right. RL: So...anyway. BC: I can, I'm a four year enlisted and I can definitely understand what you're talking about, not to that degree but I'm sure that anybody that’s been involved with the military at all can tell you that there definitely some screwy stuff going on when it comes to money and allocations and things like that. But, is there anything you’d like to add to the interview or anything you'd like to talk about? RL: You're asking the questions. BC: Okay. Well, I think that’s about got it. Again, my name is Benjamin Chappell and this is Ralph Lerch. I'm interviewing, former Major U.S. Air Force pilot. We're at Boone airport on October 15th and this is going conclude my interview for Military History class. The year is 2011. 8 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/fac22515f69b688ff93d9ba56d27515d.mp3 1d103349af81577f5b32d316c1ee244d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Lerch, Ralph A. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Chappell, Benjamin Interview Date 10/15/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 22:59 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Air Force, pilot, Andrews Air Force Base, C-124, cargo plane, 6th Weather Wing, Clark Air Base Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ralph A. Lerch, 15 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Lerch, Ralph A. Veterans United States Interviews Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Ralph A. Lerch talks about his experience as a Vietnam War veteran and pilot for the U.S. Air Force. He served in Vietnam transporting cargo, which he described as "kind of a stupid war." He entered the Aviation Cadet Program, but crashed during training and broke his thigh which took a long time to heal. After a year he was able to re-enter and he was eventually deployed. He never saw combat or came into contact with the NVA, but was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross Award. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lerch, Ralph A. Chappell, Benjamin Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 8 pages Language A language of the resource English Aviation Cadet Program C-124 Distinguished Flying Cross major pilot Ralph Lerch US Air Force Vietnam weather wing https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ba719012fe4a284b59c610de3cf6aad5.pdf 5b95b64dc8bde9c76253b7b1848c46ca PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Walter Ray Hamilton Charlotte, North Carolina 14 October 2011 CS: Chris Stouse WH: Walt Hamilton CS: This is Christopher Stouse for American Military History, October 14, 2011, Charlotte, North Carolina. Please state your name. WH: Walter Ray Hamilton. CS: Date and place of birth. WH: Sheller, Illinois in 1932. CS: How and why would you say you started your military service? WH: Well, I was raised on a farm through grade school and high school in a rural, very rural area. I had graduated from high school and I was coming pretty close to the draft during the Korean War and rather than go into the Army, I decided I would take my chances and go into the Navy. CS: How long was your service? WH: I served four years. CS: Are you happy with your service? WH: It was a very good thing for me. CS: Good, now please describe how you felt when you enlisted. WH: I was homesick at first. Boot camp was in San Diego, California. CS: How long did that last? WH: I think it was 11 or 12 weeks, that’s when you get homesick. They say San Diego is supposed to be warm but I started in February and I'll tell you, I got cold. Anyway, I got through boot camp and then I went on...we had various tests and so forth. And the training, well the physical training I wouldn't say was...we marched a lot. We did calisthenics and that type of thing, it wasn’t Marine or SEAL training. We studied a lot about ship life, nautical terms. CS: So you had a drill instructor? 1 �WH: We had a regular drill instructor; he was a chief petty officer, older fella. CS: Do you remember his name? WH: No I don't, no I don't, and it’s gone. I don't remember his name. He was a pretty good old boy, pretty fair in his heart. He was trying to train us as good sailors, of course he had no idea whether we would go aboard a ship or serve in a naval station someplace. It was just general training but like I started to say a while ago, we did take aptitude tests, I guess mechanical. If I remember correctly, I qualified pretty highly in mechanical aptitude, electrical physics and so forth. CS: So what did you do after boot camp? WH: After boot camp, I was assigned I guess it was a prep school. It was more of a technical education. The tech school was eight weeks in Norman, Oklahoma. It was more testing and I qualified to go to, I guess it was 27 or 30 weeks, something like that, electronic training. That's probably the best thing that ever happened to me. That was the start of the career which I ended up, in civilian life, pursuing. That school was in a suburb of Nashville, Tennessee. Sorry, Memphis, very close to Memphis. It was a very thorough school. They trained us a lot about electronics, how to troubleshoot, and electronic equipment. CS: What did you do after you graduated from there? WH: When I graduated from there, I was assigned to what was called a FASRON, at Moffett Field, California, outside of Mountain City. I don’t remember what the acronym stood for. It was maintenance for airplanes and fighter jets. I did that for two and a half, three years. After I had been there a few months, I had a little interest back at home, she was waiting for me. So I had saved some money, and rather than spend that money on a bus ride back to Illinois, I hitchhiked back, all the way from California to Southern Illinois. We got married and with my dad's help we bought a new Chevrolet car, 1953 Chevrolet. After a few days at home after the wedding and after a three day little honeymoon trip, we headed back for California. CS: What did you do when you got back? WH: When we got back, we found a little one-room apartment, one bed, couch, tiny little kitchen and tiny little bathroom. It was all we could afford at the time. I went back to work at FASRON, maintaining planes, working with radio equipment and things like that. Margie, my wife's name, found a good job and we began to eat well. CS: How long did you stay there? WH: We stayed out there about two years, or something like that. Then I was reassigned to a fighter group of airplanes and we flew F-2H3 Banshees, manufactured by McDonald Douglas. I went to more schools based on the type of equipment that they had there. One of the schools that I went to was a radar school. When I established myself within the fighter group, I maintained 2 �the radar that was in these jets. The radar didn't really guide the plane into a target, but the plane followed a dot into something. It was rather complicated piece of equipment. Every time that a plane would go out and come back in, it would have to have some new vacuum tubes put in. One of the interesting things about that, our executive officer was the first astronaut to go into a sub-orbital flight. As an enlisted seaman, airmen I guess was my title, I got to talk to him a little bit because he was very interested in the radar. After a flight, he would come in with the radar and I would meet the plane and he would always ask some questions about how it operated, why it wouldn’t do that, what was wrong with it. I kind of got to know him a little bit. I'm not saying we were buddies but he was really a neat guy. Anyway, with this flight group, we had VF-193 squadron that we practiced off the coast out there. And we loaded and flew them over to a place in Nevada. We were scheduled to go out on a carrier into the Pacific. We went over into Nevada to an Air Force base over there where the planes practiced, they had carrier landings and so forth. There was a lot of maintenance to do and I mainly worked at night. One of the interesting little things that happened to me, we wanted to get one of the planes back into the barn. Normally they had people go out and hook the tow-bar to them. I ended up taking it out and brought it back, and being an old farm boy I could do that no problem. Anyway, I let one of the wheels get off of the concrete as I brought it in and turned it and that wheel sunk. We spent all evening trying to get that out. I didn’t get anything for it, they just replaced it. CS: Where did you go after that? WH: Well, then we completed our weeks out there, went back and we loaded on a carrier, the USS Ariskone. It is right now off of the Mobile, Alabama bay. It's at the bottom of the ocean; it's got fish swimming around it. They sunk it on purpose because it was old. You might have read about it, there’s a fleet of ships all over the place that have been sunk. Scuba divers go down and explore the ships, and that's where my old ship is right now. Anyway, we practiced off the coast of California, and a lot of the guys got sick. They got seasick because the waves right off the coast are very high and very rolling. CS: So what year is it now? WH: Right now we are in early 1955. So we practiced out there a couple weeks or so, came back, took some time off. I took some leave and picked up Margie and brought her back to Illinois while I went back. Then after a few weeks we loaded on the carrier and headed out across the Pacific on what was called a six-month cruise. The destination was all over...Japan...our first stop was Hawaii, which was kind of neat. And we all took leave and saw the Arizona and numerous other memorials, quite moving to see that. And then after that we loaded back on and headed back out. It wasn't every day that they would fly the planes off, but they were practicing you know, and the next stop that I recall would have been probably Japan. There were two or three times that we went into Japan for a few 3 �days. I got to see Tokyo, Yokahama, and I don't remember other names but there were about three or four different places. CS: Did you see any of the after effects of Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Were they off limits? WH: No, no I didn't get to see any of that but Japan was very primitive. You know what honey buckets were? That was the cart with a donkey pulling it, guy riding on it, cleaning out human toilets. And we were warned not to eat vegetables because they had been grown with human fertilizer. Anyway, we were there and enjoyed that, several different weekend "liberties", the ships anchor in and they bring in "liberty" boats. Then our next stop was probably the Philippines. That was an interesting place. We anchored in Manila Bay and the liberty boats would come out and get us. At that time, there was ship masts sticking up out of the water, they had been sunk during ship battles. The water wasn’t deep enough to completely cover them. Korea was over by then, when I went in in '52 right at the end of the conflict, I don't remember when the truce was negotiated. Manila Bay, we went in there, one thing I remember, I was working on an airplane, pulling out a piece of equipment, and it was hot and humid. We were pretty loose on the ship; we didn’t have to stay in uniform. I was working on a piece of equipment, trying to get a replacement back in. Prior to starting I was working on the radar and I was supposed to push the radar button and I pushed the on button and it burned me I'll tell you, and it shocked me pretty bad, I guess it was 600 volts; I was done for the day. Then we left there and the next big stop was Hong Kong for a few days. All of us went out and bought clothes. I went out and bought suits, tailor-made. A lot of sailors wanted to buy china for their moms, wives. I brought home three sets of china. My mother-in-law got some. We were in Hong Kong for a few days then we went back into Japan, we were off the coast of Formosa and something had happened. We were on alert, something had happened; I guess close to fighting, we never had a problem. We passed on by that. And then here comes, a cyclone, what do they call them? A typhoon. We were right in the middle of that thing and the carrier handled it pretty well and we had to tie the planes all down. Everything was tied down tightly with cables and we went right into that. We were called a fleet and we had destroyers and cruisers with them as backup. Escorts. I remember being able to stand on the hangar deck and look out across and there would be a destroyer and you would see him come off the tip of a big wave, tip over and then come back into sight. On the carrier they would put up water breakers on the carrier to prevent the water from coming up. That brings something else to mind. One of the things about the Banshee, they were one of the first planes that were equipped for night flights. They could land on the carrier at night. We were recovering planes that had gone out and there was always an evening night crew. We heard the alarm go off one night and we found out that one of our planes had crashed right into the back of the carrier. Back there were two “big gun tubs.” He had come in and lost power and settled into that and he hit and behind the fuselage, the plane broke in two right there. The 4 �cockpit and the nose slammed into the carrier and went right in between two pillars back there. The pilot got out; he lived and wasn't hurt at all. We all rushed out where we could see and we could see flames out there in the water. They drop their tail and release their tail hook and he hit and it broke the back of the plane and complete loss of the plane. The belly hit first, it wasn’t head on. The cockpit and nose went in 30 feet and hit a wall and stopped and the pilot walked out, fine. We knew who was flying that plane, young officer, and a lieutenant junior grade; just a really nice swell guy. We didn't know what had happened, and then the phone rang and we heard that he was ok. That was one of the exciting things that happened. After that, we went to Japan again and then we headed back. Margie was going to come out and meet the ship, at Alameda Air Station in San Francisco. I remember the ride back, we cruised right along, just kind of hanging out playing cards. We had rainstorms but that one typhoon was the worst one and that was pretty bad. I remember getting close the morning prior, coming into the bay. A lot of us were up on the flight deck, I remember seeing the Golden Gate Bridge coming in. Anyway, we came into Alameda and unloaded and the squadron had already flown off and went back to Moffett Field. They flew off before the ship had docked. They need about 40 knots of flight deck to get enough lift. I might talk briefly about the experiences watching planes leave. We always had to have a radioman when the planes were flying off the deck. You know what catapults are? The planes are tied onto the catapults and they’re told to rev it up to 100%. These were jets now. The earphones were on to save your eardrums. You look at one plane, he’s still there and you look at another one and he's gone, flying. There were some prop planes; we didn't have them that were on another squadron there. A single engine, but very powerful. They would drop and go out of sight. They lost altitude, then picked up and were gone. All that happened, Margie brought my mom and dad out to California. They had hardly ever been out of Illinois. You could call them poor but they didn't know it. It was a good living back then. She brought them with her. It was really something. They were all at the dock when we came in. Margie, my wife, said my dad was watching that ship come in. It was just creeping because you can't maneuver a ship that large and dad said that's bigger than anything I've ever seen. I can just imagine his eyes. Anyway, then I went back to work, planes started flying again off of Moffett Field, and then it came time for me to be discharged after four years. We loaded everything we had and headed back. Of course I had the GI bill. I had gained a real good background in electronics, all the latest type of stuff. I went to school at DeVry Tech and lived in Chicago a little over a year. I decided to make a career and went to work for a telephone company, AT&T. Sometime by the time I was stationed at Moffett Field, they had three big huge high hangars. The big airships, dirigibles had to be kept, huge. There was a time when the doors were open and rain would drop on the inside. They were experimenting with vertical takeoff. They had a prototype there and they had a harness there for it and was being protected by cables but they could experiment with it. It was preliminary testing which later became the 5 �Harrier jet. They still use something similar to the harrier, a version of it. But I made a career out of electronics. And here we are today, Chris! I'm done talking, ha-ha. CS: Could you tell me about crew life? WH: We were tight, pretty good buddies. We would play cards in the evening and games like that. You kind of get tired of it when you’re at sea quite a while. The cooks weren't bad, food was pretty good. It was pretty crowded but nothing like a submarine or destroyer or anything like that. The design of the carrier is somewhat different from the one I was on. While I was still in the service, they were building a deck on the left side and it went off and the planes launched at about a 30-degree angle. There were lots of supplies on there; it's so deep in the water, a lot of room down there. The liberties were mostly 24 hours and we would generally go sightseeing and get a meal. One evening some of us went out to eat and what did I order? Steak. I ordered the steak. I don’t remember ever sampling Japanese food. We were kind of given warnings as to what to stay away from. Now it’s much more civilized, I guess you'd say. Anyway, the service was good for me. Otherwise I would have probably been a poor farmer. CS: Okay, thank you very much for your time. WH: Thank you. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/588754554253c74e33510b227d21d5d0.mp3 92ad5fa38a00a39349aee3bee24aa093 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hamilton, Walter R. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Strouse, Christopher Interview Date 10/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:11 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Illinois, Navy, Moffett Field, USS Ariskone, Tokyo, Japan, Manila, Philippines Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter R. Hamilton, 14 October 2011 Description An account of the resource Walter R. Hamilton enlisted in the Navy and served four years. He was trained in maintenance for airplanes and fighter-jets. He served a six month tour of the pacific following the end of the Korean War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hamilton, Walter R. Stouse, Christopher Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 6 pages Subject The topic of the resource Hamilton, Walter R. Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Language A language of the resource English electronic training FASRON Korean War Navy Walter Hamilton https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0f109f4181c2be7229592582411c0a85.pdf ad1a982ce0b34856ae1c574f119229de PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Barry Craig Forrest Robbins, North Carolina 16 October 2011 WF: William C. Forrest BF: Barry C. Forrest JC: James Wesley Cain, another veteran. WF: My name is William Cameron Forrest, I am interviewing Barry Craig Forrest, the date is October 16th, 2011, the place is Robbins, North Carolina and this is part of an oral history project for History 3823. Okay to begin, how did you join the military? BF: I joined the military while I was in college. I enlisted in the North Carolina State University Army ROTC program, and a month later I also enlisted in the North Carolina National Guard. WF: Why did you choose to do ROTC rather than just enlist? BF: Well, I had always wanted to be an officer, I wanted to be a tank and armor officer, and that was the reason. WF: Why did you choose the National Guard over the active duty Army? BF: I chose the Guard over the active duty Army because the active duty Army would have had to do a lot of traveling, and it made sense to me at the time so that I could help the people of the state North Carolina better if I were in the National Guard as opposed to in in the active duty. Plus, I was in college at the time. WF: So you were living on the campus at NC State? BF: No, I was living in an apartment in Raleigh about two miles off campus. WF: Why did you pick the service branch you joined? BF: I had always been a student of history; I had studied the tank battles of World War Two, and was interested in armor warfare, so I enlisted as an armor officer. WF: Do you recall your first days after enlisting? BF: Somewhat…it was kind of confusing. I didn't course I didn't know anything about the military not having come from a military family. I was just doing what they told me to do I and then try to figure out what to do next. WF: When did you join? 1 �BF: I joined in September 1980. WF: What did it feel like? BF: It felt good. I didn't have any qualms like some people do about joining the military, it was always an exciting life for me I was happy. WF: Was it something you had always wanted to do? BF: Yes, I had always wanted to join. I always wanted to be of service to people to try to help people, and through the military I thought I could be of the best service to the people that I grew up with the people of my state and the people of my country. WF: What about your training experiences, do you remember any of those? BF: I had a number of training experiences over the 28 years I was in the Army. Initial training experiences I had were while I was with the National Guard I would go to drills, and this was before I had any formal military schooling other than just some classes through the ROTC program. I remember being on the tanks out in the woods in at Fort Bragg doing our weekend training and then doing our two week annual training periods being very exciting times, a lot of interesting things happening. Of course this is typical military stuff you know you go out there and it's a lot of hurry up and wait an you hurry to get somewhere and then you might wait around a couple hours before you do anything and then you might only do something for just a brief period and then you're back to waiting again. But all in all I enjoyed it, I felt like I learned a lot…like it was something I was good at. WF: What did you have to do to become an armor officer? BF: To become an armor officer I had to be of course enlisted in the army, and then when I completed my school at NC State University. I finished the ROTC program I went to the armor officer basic course was what it was called in 1983 at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I was there that was a four month course for second lieutenants and I was there from July of 1983 until the end of October 1983. WF: Do you remember any of your training instructors, ROTC, or otherwise? BF: Let's see I had a Major Van Horn he was a ROTC instructor. The trainers at Fort Knox, I don't remember any specific names of people for; well I take that back we had a Marine instructor that was our small group instructor when I went to the advance course in 1989…his name was Marty. He was a captain at the time he was he was a pretty good guy. He was a Marine armor officer. He was a unique individual (laughs). I don't know how you'd say it kind of a hard charging guy. 2 �His nickname was “Thumper.” He got that nickname because when he was a tank company commander in the Marine Corps. He had a particular private who was always giving him problems. So finally this private had just given him enough problems that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. He called the private over to his tank and got him behind the tank and he said, "Private this bolt is loose tighten it." His first sergeant went to the private and said, "No sir, it's not it's not loose." Then said, "Get a little closer and look at it." So the private gets a little closer and said, "No, I sir I can't see a loose bolt anywhere." The lieutenant said, "Get a little closer." By this time the private got fairly close to the back end of the tank. The lieutenant reached over and grabbed the guy’s hand and his head…and thumped his head up against the side of the tank. And (laughs) lesson learned for the private and from that point on he was called “Thumper.” WF: Interesting, so you mentioned you had 20 plus years in the military…how did you get through it? BF: A lot of patience, a lot of patience. All kinds of people with all kinds of ideas about the way things should be done or about the way they should be run, and you can issue an order to a hundred people and you will have a hundred different…versions of how the order should be executed. WF: In regards to your experiences in the military did you ever serve during a time of war? BF: I was in the military from 1980 until 2008…no correction 2009. I served through the little conflict they had in Grenada, the incursion into Panama and the First Gulf War and the Second Gulf War. WF: What was your job or assignment during these wars? BF: Initially I was an armor officer. I did platoon time as a tank company platoon leader, I was tank company commander, was the intelligence S-2 officer for the tank battalion. I worked as the S-1, I did some work in the operation side that was during the First Gulf War by the time the Second Gulf War rolled around the Army had decided to put me into an engineer. So I was a combat engineer during the Second Gulf War. I was never mobilized or deployed to either of the war fronts. WF: So how did you become an engineer? BF: I was what they would call a “yellow book engineer,” basically that means that I had been school trained to be an armor officer. They decided that I needed that they had too many armor officers they needed engineers. So I had to take correspondence courses to learn how to be a combat engineer officer. Those correspondence courses are they come in in books that have a yellow cover on them. So if you do the correspondence courses and you become qualified in whatever course they are offering you you're a yellow book engineer or yellow book whatever. And that's the way I got it. 3 �WF: Did you ever have a lot of memorable experiences as an armor officer or an engineer? BF: Yes, there were a number of different (laughs)…you can't do this kind of job and not have memories of different things. I remember driving down the interstate, or the autobahn in Germany in an M-1 Tank at 60-miles an hour passing cars on the side of the road. That was a unique experience. I remember driving through farmers’ fields in Germany in 1984. The tank next to me we was driving across a beet field. The tank next to me was throwing what they called a “rooster tail” behind the tracks of beets and soil. The farmers weren't too happy about that one either. I remember driving into a German village one night in a column. A company column and stopping in the village by the British. The British were our opposing forces, by a British patrol. They had a roadblock set-up and we couldn't go forward and we really didn't have room to back up the whole company out of the village. I looked off to the left and there was a vacant lot where I was at and it opened onto open fields out behind just outside the village. So I called the commander on the radio and told him what I had and he said go with it so we I took my platoon, we turned left we went into the vacant lot then the whole company followed us out. We drove through and across this farm field and drove around the village. Next morning we had to come back through there and the area we had driven through there were foxholes dug all over the place. We had driven through a British infantry position in the dark (laughs) and had managed not to run over anybody with 14 M-1 Tanks. I remember getting a M-1 Tank stuck one time so deep in the ground it took us four hours to pull it out. We had to use three tank retriever M-88s to do the job. It was just a mess. The tank sank into the dirt so deep that I could step off the top of the off the hull of the tank right onto the surface of ground it was just level. WF: I stuck one up like that (laughing). BF: Oh? WF: Broke the track on it. BF: Yes. WF: In the mud and it took us to about midnight to get it out and get it back home. BF: Yes, I remember going being at Fort Hood and doing some of the lanes. Some of the lanes training and some of the gunnery training down there. I remember sleeping in the camp area by my tank and hearing something rattling around in our garbage and looking up and there was a cow walking through the area getting into the garbage ah bags over there trying to look for something eat. I remember a guy getting bit by a bat while he was riding in his tank. He was riding with the hatch open they drove under a tree and dislodged the bat it fell in the vehicle with him and bit him on the arm. He had to have rabies treatments. WF: So where have you gone overseas in the military? 4 �BF: During my time in the military I have been to Germany twice. I was there for different things, different reasons in Germany. I went to a conference. I was in Korea for just a real short span I was just over there for a conference. The rest of the time most of the rest of my travels have all been inside the continental US. WF: So what kind of a conference was it that you attended in Korea? BF: It was a conference to plan two exercises that were coming up we went to this conference. I went to the conference in February and the exercise was going to take place in August. The time change between North Carolina and Korea was horrendous. I was always ready to go. I went to bed every day at five o'clock and woke up every morning at three o'clock. While I was there the climate was nice it must have been, must have been March cause it was not really cold march or April that I was there not February. Because it wasn't really cold when I was there, it was cold enough that they had the heat on in the hotel we stayed in Seoul (clock chimes) Lord they had the heat turned up to probably a hundred degree I slept on top of the covers. I remember the riot police being around all of the gates to the base that we were or the post we were working off of. They are at least a squad at every entrance to the base because they had protestors that would come and protest in front of the bases. I got to see I got an understanding for if you study history when they invaded Korea, when McArthur came into Korea and he did the amphibious invasion they talked about the tides were a big factor well I didn't understand that until you go out and you look at the when you leave Seoul and go to airport you have to go by the ocean or by the across the bay. Well, depending on what time of day there if you are there at one time in the day there is just miles and miles of water if you come by at another time of the day it's just miles and miles of mudflat so and I'm you know it's like knee deep mud you ain't nobody's going to get across that in a boat or a vehicle or walking anytime soon so that gave me an appreciation for why they ha why the tides were so important in that particular operation. WF: While you were overseas did you receive any medals or citations for your actions? BF: I did not receive any medals or citations for actions done while I was overseas. My highest awards have been a Meritorious Service Medal. I have three of these; mostly for just service at whatever job I happened to be doing at the time. I got a Meritorious Service Medal for service in an infantry brigade, another for service in an engineer brigade, and for service working in the National Guard headquarters in Raleigh. WF: While overseas how did you stay in touch with your family? BF: When I was in Korea you could just buy a pre-paid phone card and you could dial home with that that was pretty neat. When I was in Germany I wrote letters. That was pretty much before they had all these new cell phones and that was in 1984 there were you had to go to a 5 �hardened phone facility to do to call home an everything we I didn't really have time to do that I mostly was by letter. WF: Did you like the food overseas? BF: Yes I did. I liked I liked the German food was all right. I'm not a particular fan of spaetzle but European foods are good. I liked jaeger schnitzel and things like that. The schnitzel was pretty good. What's that Hungarian soup? Anyhow there was some soups I liked really liked over there the Korean food was ok. It was pretty good, I like I like Asian foods anyway. WF: They didn't have a dog in it? BF: No, I ate at a Korean restaurant just a little ways down the street from my hotel. At least the menus were in English so I could read what I was getting. Because I had been warned that you had to be careful because there's bologna and bologna or something like that and one of the other of them was dog. And I didn't want to eat any dog. But I found the food pretty good I could eat just about anywhere in the world I think. WF: Did you feel any pressure or stress while overseas? BF: No real stress while I was overseas. Like I said they were short assignments and I was pretty well prepared for both assignments. At the time in Germany I probably had the most fun. Driving tanks across the countryside that was (laughs) I enjoyed that. WF: What did you do to entertain yourself while overseas? BF: There wasn't a lot to do in Korea. They had a street called Taiwan Street there in Seoul. It was like a little small shopping district. That you could go up there and I could walk up there and walk around and look at the shops and so some stuff like that and they had a they had a history museum not far from the just outside the gate of the post I was at. I went there and then I walked around on the post some and looked around there that was about it for German, for Korea. In Germany, just the looking at the countryside moving around a lot talking to the people. Because I, a number of the Germans speak English pretty well. It was pretty interesting plus I spoke a little German at the time. That helped some. WF: Did you take any photographs of your experiences overseas? BF: I have photographs of I have a number of photographs of the German trips. But I don't really have any pictures of the Korean trip, some not a lot though. I just didn't I didn't take a camera with me for that one it was just a short trip so I wasn't going to get the tourist do any tourist time so. WF: Why did you take pictures while you were overseas, if you did? 6 �BF: Well, most of the things I took pictures of when I was on the trip to with Germany because I was new to the Army at the time I was just a lieutenant. There was a great opportunity to see foreign military equipment up close. I took my camera with that, that was my intent when I took my camera was to take pictures of foreign military equipment, and I wound up taking pictures of other things like I think I took a picture of every church bell tower in every village we went through, almost. And then just pictures of the countryside I thought it was really pretty we were up in the north on the North German Plain on the Reforger. We were doing up near a place called Wolfe, I think was the name of it. There is another town there I can't remember the other town. We were probably 20 kilometers from the East German border at the time at that time the border was still guarded and they had minefields on the East German side of the border. I we drove right up to the fence that divided East Germany from West Germany and looked across into East Germany which we later found out that U.S. Army personnel were not supposed to be within one kilometer of the fence. So technically we were kind of violating the rules but nobody explained it to us. WF: What did you think of your officers and fellow soldiers? BF: I served with some good officers I served with some sorry officers, I've served with some good enlisted soldiers and some bad enlisted soldiers the good enlisted soldiers you try to hang onto and you try to promote them up and make sure they have a make sure they have good job security and a good career progression then the poor ones you try to help them to be better soldiers and if they refuse to do that you try to limit the damage they can do to your unit, or the their responsibilities. Until you can get rid of them. WF: So what positions have you held in the military. What jobs have you progressed through as you have spent your time in the military? BF: My career progression was a as a tank platoon leader, tank company executive officer, tank company commander, a tank armor battalion intelligence officer S-2, was a engineer battalion S1, worked at the engineer at the infantry brigade as a in the operations section 5-3 section, was the brigade S-1 in the infantry brigade, was the brigade S-1 in the engineer brigade, worked outside of the S-1, outside the S-11 and was mobilization officer for the state of North Carolina. I was the person that mobilized probably 90 percent of the units that went to the Second Gulf War. WF: What was your favorite position in the military? BF: Tank company commander. WF: Why did you prefer that position above all the other ones? BF: Because I was still working on the tanks I still got to be down with the soldiers and work with the soldiers. I was trained from the beginning and that was the job that I aspired to be was to be a leader in a tank unit an armor unit. And (clears throat) it was just a challenge to develop the training and work the tactics and lead the company in tactical situations. 7 �WF: Do you recall the day your service ended? BF: My service ended 30 September 2008. Not really a big day, it's just when it was the day I was officially retired. By that time I really didn't like the office jobs. I wanted to be around the soldiers and be out with the line units. The fighting units, the sharp end of the spear but (cough) this unit… this job I was doing the year of my retirement was just a desk job and I got to go out and visit the units, but I didn't get to go with training. I really didn't like that as much but by that time I was ready to go. WF: What rank were you when your service ended? BF: I retired as a lieutenant colonel, 0-5. WF: Did you ever want to go any higher than that or was that as far as you wanted to go? BF: I always wanted to go higher. I did not get to be a tank company or a tank battalion commander. But there was only one battalion in the state and there were just so many people that wanted to be in command. So many better connections than I did there was no way I was going to get it so I just had to live with it. WF: So you mentioned you were in the National Guard, did you have another job while you were in the military? BF: Well, when I was for the last 20 years I was in the military service I was on active duty with the guard. I was what they call an active duty Guard Reserve, an AGR soldier. The first eight years I was a traditional Guardsman. That means I had a two-day drill every month and a fourteen-day annual training period in a year. During that time I worked as a land surveyor, doing survey work. WF: What did you do after your military service ended? BF: The first year after it ended I just kind of lived the retired life. I took the children to school. WF: And then had to get two jobs? BF: Lay around the house, and then I managed to find me another job. As a military contractor working with the Robin Sage exercise in the Special Forces qualification course. WF: Why did you choose to go to work as a military contractor after retirement? BF: Because it gave me a chance to be back with at the soldier level of the military training. And it was an opportunity to be able to just be back near combat level type assignment. Plus it was working with Special Forces those guys are always cool. WF: You know he sent some Special Forces to Africa? 8 �BF: Yes. WF: So would you say the military has become a lasting effect on your life? BF: Yes, it has. WF: Why do you think it has? BF: I have been places and seen things and talked to people that I would never have done if I had not been in the military. I mean it's a job with benefits. These trying times with jobs and all there are not many people that I can say they've got a job that has full medical benefits and full housing benefits and a death gratuity if you die. WF: Did you make any really close friends while you were in the service? BF: Yes, I made a number of them. WF: Do you still continue these relationships? BF: Yes, I do. Don't get to see all of them as much as I used to, but I talk to them infrequently. Some more than others. WF: Have you made a lot of relationships as a military contractor as well? BF: Yes, I have. Lots of different people mostly retired people that work as contractors doing this job and some of the active duty soldiers that work as cadre for the lane. They're all good folks I liked working with them. WF: Did you join a veteran's organization? BF: I joined the American Legion. WF: In the veteran’s organization what kinds of activities does your post or association have? BF: Oh they have a number of different activities. They meet a lot of times when they are having meetings so I don't get to go to the meetings. But they do fish fries. I participate in the fish fries, and they sponsor baseball teams stuff like that. I've not done much work with a ball team but I've helped them with a fish fry some. WF: Is there anything else you would like to add to this interview? BF: No, I would say that probably my one regret from military service was that I never ever served in any of the conflicts ever. That was not my desired path when I entered the military. If there was a conflict I was going to serve in it. I wanted to be part of history (clock chimes) and because when they occurred and the assignments I was in at the time, I did not get to serve in those conflicts. 9 �WF: Thank you for your time. 10 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d1b0eceb7939c141d86afdfa8b3f0351.mp3 1bf3afafde201140bb158c57f413fcd9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Forrest, Barry Craig Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Forrest, William Interview Date 10/11/16 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:22 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Robbins, NC State University, ROTC, National Guard, armor, officer, Fort Knox, Germany, Fort Hood, Korea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barry Craig Forrest, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource National Guard Gulf War, 1980-1988 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Forrest, Barry Craig Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Barry Craig Forrest, interviewed by William C. Forrest, enlisted in the NC State University ROTC and the NC National Guard in 1980. He served 28 years in the Army as an armor officer and combat engineer. Although he served in the First and Second Gulf War, in this interview he mainly discusses his service in Germany. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Forrest, Barry Craig Forrest, William C. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 10 Pages Language A language of the resource English armor officer Fort Bragg Gulf War NC National Guard platoon Raleigh yellow book engineer https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e5e5be276a8ddf7b3333fbb48758fe47.pdf d912d202c63d7e0c8feb84c832be75f0 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Bill Downs 13 October 2011 BD: Bill Downs RC: Rachel Crisp BD: September 14, 1931. RC: Where were you born and raised? BD: In a small town called Pinetops, North Carolina. RC: Where is Pinetops? BD: That’s near Tarboro and Wilson, between the two of them. Actually it's in the triangle between Wilson, Tarboro, and Rocky Mount. RC: What branch of the service did you join and what was your rank when you left the service? BD: Well, I joined the United States Navy and whenever I was discharged four years later, I was an E6 sonar man first-class. RC: I didn't know that. Can you tell me a little bit about Edwards Military Institute? BD: (Laughs) I can tell you a whole lot because I went from second grade through junior college there and I was not living in the barracks with the other kids...because I was one of the few, probably the only male on the campus that was living with their parents on the campus. So, therefore, I had the run of five campuses. There were two little girls' schools, the first through the fifth grade... or kindergarten through the fifth grade and sixth, seventh, and eighth grades. And then they had a high school and junior college for girls, and the commercial college. And with the boys, they had a junior barracks, the kindergarten through the eighth grade, and ninth through the twelfth, high school, and two years of college. And so I lived in whatever facilities that they had for us there on the campus at the school. Sometimes it was in an old abandoned dorm, one time in a dispensary, or the hospital (laughs) on the campus. And just, one was a farm ranch; I mean a farmhouse, that some of the migrants…not migrants, farm laborers lived in. We just moved and moved and moved (laughs). RC: Jack Lucas, who was the youngest Medal of Honor recipient for World War Two. BD: Yes. 1 �RC: He went to school with you, right? BD: Well, he was, he may have been... yeah, that would be World War Two. He was in the Marine Corps and he had been a cadet at the junior barracks whenever I was over there. I went over there, and would go marching with them and would go wherever they were going and all, but I didn't wear the uniform until I was in the seventh grade. But all the other students lived in the dorms. And so, I was probably a tenth grader before there was another “outsider” male in any of my classes. RC: And that was Jack? BD: No, Jack was at the junior barracks and he was the commanding cadet officer over there. RC: Okay. BD: He was the cadet major when he was 13 years old. He was an eighth grader or when he was 15. I don't know how he got away from the campus but he went and presented himself as an 18 year old and entered the Marine Corps. He was a pretty robust young man. RC: So he looked like he was old enough? BD: Oh, he'd convinced them that he was. And I mean he had all the significant signs [laughs] that he was that age. I mean he was a big, overgrown child and whenever they found out in the Marine Corps, he'd already gone through his boot camp and had got to Pearl Harbor when they realized that he was not 15 years old. So they put him in the brig and while he was in there, opportunity came, he found a way out. And he stowed aboard a troop transport. RC: Full of 5th Marines, right? BD: What? RC: Fifth Marines? BD: I don’t remember which group it. I guess that was it. But he went with them and I believe it was the battle of Okinawa or Iwo Jima. RC: It was Iwo Jima that he won the Medal (of Honor) for. BD: Ah, okay, Iwo Jima. And while he was there he...they got under close combat with the Japanese and they were throwing hand grenades into the foxhole where he was... or in that area. I think that he pulled... I know he pulled two, if not three, underneath him and smothered them. Of course they exploded, but they were not nearly as powerful as the current hand grenades. But he had shrapnel from his toes up in his neck and I saw him after he came back and after he had received the Congressional Medal of Honor. He came over to the junior barracks and I think I 2 �was probably 14 or 15. I just heard he was over there (laughs) and I went over there to see him. And he pulled off his shirt and let me see the shrapnel (laughs). RC: Wow. BD: Jack had a girlfriend over at the girls' school and she was at our table, my mom's and dad's table where...the same table where I ate. She was assigned to it so I had a double identity with his girlfriend and him. But he did not marry her. I don't know who he did marry (laughs). He wound up down in Texas, I think it was. RC: Wow. BD: But Jack appeared in the Congress of the United States when one of the Presidents was having his State of the Union. The President had him stand up there and I said, "I knew that fella." (laughs). RC: So, being at Edwards…you grew up around the military, obviously… BD: Yes. RC: What made you decide to join the Navy? BD: I had part of one semester at Wake Forest and two of the young men who were in the same house that we were renting rooms in, they were not dorms, I mean, they had dorms, but they had overflowed, so we were renting a room in a house. The last time I saw either one of these fellas, they had been World War Two hospital corpsmen with the Navy. Did you know that the Navy hospital corps supplied medical attention for Marines? RC: Hmm. BD: And so, last time I saw them they were wearing the marine greens. When I went into the service at age 19, I had been sent to San Diego, and about...I don’t know what week it was, maybe the fourth or fifth, they'd already got the grades back on your...sort of like intellect IQ (test) or something (laughs). Then placed you into an occupation. I had expressed an interest in electronics. I had been tested down in Wilmington and though I got all the questions right on my application for the Navy, I didn't score so high on this because I'd never had a physics class and didn't know what they were talking about when they asked about resistive capacitors. They did qualify me for that but they told me, "Well, what would you think about being a hospital corpsman?" I said, "I like a dry bunk and three squares a day. That’s why I joined this outfit. I didn’t want to get put out there on the ground." He said, "Well, I've got one here that you’d be interested in. I've got a 12-month school in San Francisco at Hunter's Point. I think you can make it in fire control school." I didn't know what a fire control man was and I thought in fire control they were going put you down in the fire room, going to be an engineer down there and you couldn’t see daylight and I didn’t want to go down 3 �there (laughs). And so I said, "I don’t think I'd like that." But he said, "I can get you in sonar, maybe." I said, "That sounds good." And so as it was I got down at that time when we would go out on trials and I'd be down below after I had a six-month school. We would be down below the main deck and sometimes two decks below the main deck, operating the equipment. So I didn’t really gain any height on it until we had our own ship commissioned, when I went to sea. They commissioned it at Maryland Naval Shipyard. I had been in the Navy not quite two years whenever they sent us up there. I was the first non-rated man, I was a seaman. I just knew I was going catch all the dirty work until my other shipmates...the other sonar men, we had five of us going into the same ship. And so I wasn't lonesome, I knew who was with me (laughs). RC: Yes. BD: But, that’s how I got into sonar. RC: So, I guess it was kind of dark on ship…being down there. BD: Well, there was no outside light. RC: Yes. BD: And whenever they darkened ship at night and after we had Taps play, you didn't even have any lights in the compartment except just the exit lights and maybe some type of low light. You couldn't sit there and read or play cards or anything. RC: Yes. BD: So, it was a unique experience. I wouldn’t take anything for it. My whole career at sea, after I was assigned a ship, was on the USS Vammen. It was a destroyer escort, number 644. I think now it's probably been converted into some razor blades or something. Anyway, they abandoned it, but it had been in World War Two and re-commissioned. We had been reequipped and had top of the line sonar equipment. All of it. Everything on it had a serial number 1 or 1a or 1b or something. And, I mean, we were the envy of the rest of them because they put us on the same level with the bridge...our sonar shack. I could open the hatch from our underwater battery plot, and I could see daylight. And if I wanted to get somewhere out near the bridge, I could see daylight out through (laughs) the pilothouse. But, as sonar man even when I was a seaman first class, I still was being assigned for every detail except sonar, submarine, anti-submarine warfare to report to the bridge. I was put on the engine order telegraph, which meant I operated the signals to the engine room regarding what engines to either back up or go forward and all I was doing was just accepting the command from the captain. My first experience on the ship was…I had never pulled a watch there, but they came in and got me out of the sonar shack and said come on out here, we need somebody to operate these. I don’t 4 �know why they didn't have any, but they got me out there and the captain gave me a call. We had 195 turns on the propellers. We were getting ready to do a depth charge, a pattern of seventeen 300-pound depth charges, and were going to check the watertight integrity of the ship. Here they put me out there to relay the commands to the engine room, and I had to repeat what the captain gave me. He’d gotten up to 195 turns on it and he said, "Increase turns five...five turns," and I repeated it. I reached over and grabbed the first number to my left, I put two on it. And so it would look like 295 to the people down there and then I was going to put the two zeroes on it. And it wasn't but seconds until the captain was in there and he wanted to know, "Who the hell is on this machine?!" (laughs) That’s what he said! I thought, man this is it. I mean, I'm before the captain! And the executive officer had told me what to do and he just said, "Calm down, Bill. Calm down." I didn’t take the captain on, but I did put an oath on him and responded with an oath. I said, "Well, 195 and 200...195 and five are 200." That's when the executive officer said, "Just lay off, Bill," (laughs) and so, from then on I was attached to that. Every time we went to ammunition replenishment to transfer the sick and highlights, the lines for cargo. I was on the engine order telegraphs and even as a first class petty officer. It was a unique experience. RC: So, where were you? I mean, I know that you were in Korea. BD: Yes, we sailed to San Diego was basically our homeport. We were commissioned in Maryland at a naval shipyard and Vallejo, California. And I was there six months before they commissioned us. In San Diego I think the 5th Naval District or something and that was our homeport. From time to time we came back and were in such places as Long Beach, California. We were there in the yards one time and on our way over the first time we were going to Korea, we ran into a school of porpoises or something and they damaged both of our sonar domes. They hadn't had that frequency before and they all decided that these fish were going to come and investigate. I mean we were in the middle of a school of them. And they broke the dome on our sonar and our sister ship who had the same type of sonar equipment. I don't know if any of the other ships were injured. They put us both in the dry docks at Pearl Harbor and we were there when the battlewagons were in repair. It was big enough to hold an aircraft carrier and maybe two submarines, just space-wise (laughs) and our little ships in there, didn’t make a shadow in there, it was that big. It was a real interesting thing to be there for 30 days before they got to the dome and all. I mean they didn't have any backup parts for it, you know? RC: Yes. BD: They replaced that and we went on to Japan and then to Korea and that was like six or seven months tour over there, that particular time. We came back to the states and by that time I was a third class petty officer, an E4. Whenever we were getting ready to go the second time, they sent us up to carry an ammunition ship, to escort it, and I couldn't figure out why in the world our 5 �divisions…four ships in our division. All of the destroyer escorts were assigned to this ship. The thing was sitting so high out of the water that it looked like it was carrying no cargo and here's an ammunition ship with us with it. We got over to Japan and we wouldn’t stay over two or three days in a port until they moved us to another one. We went to Kobe, Sasebo, Yokahama, Yokosuka (laughs) and all around there. I went over a month without mail catching up with us and I got my Christmas cards on Christmas Day. It was an exciting thing but also a depressing one because my oldest sister had her first child during that time and the child died within 48 hours. It was a Godsend because the child was severely deformed, that is, didn’t have any bones, which are continuous bones. It was just one bone in her arms and webbed hands and webbed feet and yet she wrote me one of the sweetest, compassionate letters that I ever had. She was just thanking God for having given her a child that she could claim as her own. That was a unique Christmas gift that year while we were sitting in Sasebo. Then we pulled duty in Korea waters. Most of the first month we were there or so, we pulled the rest of the ships in our division in Wonsan Harbor, which is up in the area of North Korea that they had overrun. We were blockading the harbor to prevent their shipping, that is, military equipment and all in there. While we were working with English, Canadians, and Australians on these group exercises, not exercises…but assignments. We would have to pull back and permit the sailing vessels who were carrying merchant ships who were flying the English flag...British flag, let them come into the Wonsan Harbor. It was the goofiest feeling under the sun, that here we were blockading and shooting Sampans and being bombarded by the guns all around there but whenever they came in we would permit people that were doing business with them. You didn't know if they were carrying copper wire or whether they were carrying ammunition or anything else. RC: Yes. BD: And they were merchant maritime ships. It was a goofy thing. RC: So if they were flying the right colors you couldn’t stop and search them? BD: No, no, no, we were ordered to permit them in. I mean it was sort of like doing business with the enemy. Very much like our combat in these more recent ones where nobody was committed to winning and had all the politically correct things that they did. RC: Yes. BD: But we had a unique thing to happen there while we were assigned to that first tour. We went up on the coast of Korea, all the way up to Vladivostok, off the coast of Russia. I don’t know why they sent us up there because they didn't officially have a war with Russia. But it was cold (laughs) and when we were coming back from that area our captain, or one of the crewmen spotted it. 6 �We pulled in to about 1000 yards or 2000 yards from the shore and were going to shoot projectiles at a train engine (on land). We got one or two loads up there (in our guns) and they (the Russians) already pulled it back into the tunnel where they had it hidden. It was a decoy to lure us in. They turned loose with 155 mm, 120 mm, and 90 mm guns. They were radar controlled and all our little old guns (laughs) were hand cranked things and would get the asthmas, or the degree for the shots, from the fire control men. Our radar did not control the guns. RC: Yes. BD: They were hand-loaded and they didn't even have a turret around them like the 5-inch guns, we were 3-inch that you would put the stuff out there by hand and plug it. Actually when we got under fire we had a movie going in the crew mess hall and the captain didn’t even call General Quarters. He left one crew there and the rest were watching the movie in the crew's quarters. They didn’t even call it off. I mean if they lobbed bombs into there, we would have lost like 60 or 80 men. RC: Is that just because he didn’t think that there were any… BD: No, no. He was getting the ship out of there and he just put it into flank speed, which is maximum. If he hadn't been a masterful seaman we would have been gone out there because they were lobbing those shells within 90 to 120 feet of us…the explosives. RC: Yes. BD: He cut to where they had just laid down their last one (shell). The radar was calibrating on…calculating on the basis of our last move. And so where they had fired the previous one, we zigzagged out of there and ran for about 20 minutes or more. We couldn't even reach shore with our two little popguns. We didn't even have a machine gun. Didn’t have anything but side arms and some soldier arms and those two three-inch guns. And yet, whenever we got on the other side of Korea, we went all the way up the Yellow River into China. We ran blockade for Sampans over there. We had a translator on the ship; a South Korean we knew was our ally. If we captured anybody he would interrogate him aboard ship. One night we had one that they brought out to us. They had captured this man and had shot him. He was in sad shape. They brought him into the officer’s mess hall and did surgery on him, the hospital corpsman. The first class chief corpsman did surgery on this fellow, and stopped the bleeding. He was transferred, but the thing…we were here rescuing somebody who looked like he was dead and we’re going to put him in our hospital. There were little things that you didn’t ever understand but they were a unique part of it. I thoroughly enjoyed my career and what I did, even when I was in sonar school. We had access to so many places and when we got liberty, or got the weekend off. We didn’t get those weekends off but we did have to sign aboard ship. I got to visit all over California on weekends. I was 7 �accessible to my sister up there in Vallejo, California and her family. And I really had some precious moments with them because I only had time to see them once every two or three years. RC: Yes. BD: I got to see all the way up to Russian River in California just by having family out there and they would take me for trips. RC: When you were out there, did you have shore leave? BD: Oh, well, like I said, we went to so many different ports in Japan. Sasebo, I guess was probably the most frequent one we went to. It was a rather unimportant one but the Navy had a lot of ships there and it was accessible to Korea. It was on the southwest side of Japan and like Tokyo, Kyoto…that's a part of the aging process (laughs) at 80, I'm entitled to forget some things. Sometimes it's convenient, but we got to travel to Tokyo several times. One time a shipmate of mine, a fellow sonar man and I went up there. They were our enemy just four years before…and here they were, open arms, hands extended to receive whatever cash we had (laughs). RC: Yes. BD: But they had some of the most fantastic tour guides…riding rickshaws, you know, pedal ones? RC: Yes. BD: I remember a fellow from Midland, Texas. He and I went through sonar school together and were aboard ship together all the way to the day we were discharged. RC: What's his name? BD: Phil Roberts. He contacted me after over 50 years since we saw each other on our day of discharge. He got on a kick to meet up with his old buddies and collect his shipmates (laughs). He knew I was going go to Wake Forest, so he got from them the information that they had for William Downs. Wake Forest had two or three of us with the same name (laughs). They were not any kin to me, but they had the files. Someone said here is a minister in North Carolina. He contacted me and the first thing he said, "This is Phillip Roberts and I'm trying to get up with Bill Downs." I said, "Phil!" (laughs) He and his wife have been to visit Faye and I twice and we even had greetings this Christmas from them. I can still remember the wedding gift that he sent me and your grandmother. RC: Really? BD: Yes. It was a great big old frying pan, an electric frying pan. The biggest one that I ever saw. 8 �RC: Did you guys get in all kinds of trouble up there in Japan on shore leave? BD: No, I never got on report for anything (laughs). RC: I can’t believe you weren’t thrown in the brig for something! BD: After three years they gave me a Good Conduct Award. And that's a misnomer because all that meant was you hadn’t had to go up before the captain or have any charges brought up against you. I sort of kept my nose clean. I did not engage in after-hours leave. And I don’t care to relive any of that right now (laughs) particularly not before my granddaughter! RC: Wow. BD: But we got to go to places like the Shinto shrines and some of those things in places like 1400 to 1600 years old. I meant just to go to Kyoto and then later on to go to Tokyo, which became the new capital. Kyoto was the first capital. There's so much there, that was an emblem of it being the nation's capital. They moved the new one to Tokyo and they took the same letters of Kyoto and used it to name Tokyo. I don’t know what any of those words mean, but we got to go there and to Yokohama and to the other one that was bombed by the atomic bomb. I got to see the ruin that was still left there and that was eye-opening. I think they probably still have in Hiroshima the way it was then. They still had a chimney from an old medical college...sort of like the “Leaning Tower of Pisa.” It was warped that way with the atomic bomb. It was one of the things that were left there. The medical school over there had some type of shell still left. It looked like it'd been a domed building maybe three or four stories high and everything around there had been incinerated. During World War II we flew bombers there to destroy an ammunition factory or something using torpedoes or shells. It was a devastated area. We got the people in there; you could see that they were scarred. And yet they were just as sweet as they could be…they had forgotten that we had been enemies. RC: So this was '51? '52? BD: It was '52 and then of course I was back in there again in '54 for another tour. I can't remember dates, but anyway we were back over there a second time while we were still having to run gun blockades and still having to dodge floating mines, acoustical mines, and pressure mines. There were times they would be floating by out there and lookouts would spot them and backup so they wouldn't drift in to us and they would put riflemen out there to explode them. RC: Yes. BD: So it was a… RC: So that was off the Japan coast? Or was that... 9 �BD: That was off the coast of Korea. RC: Oh, okay. BD: Japan though, they were open arms to us. They were very congenial. RC: Tired of war? BD: What? RC: They were tired of war? BD: Yes. And they were grateful that we didn't drop another bomb on them, because they had seen what war could do and they lived with it and desired to have peace. RC: Yes. BD: They really were relieved, just about every one of them I met. I didn’t ever meet up with anybody who treated us hostile. But one thing still haunts me…and I think probably the reason that I'm sympathetic with people who don’t have anything...is I was waiting for a boat out to all the other ships; the last boat of the evening. I was standing there with another shipmate and we both had an egg sandwich. When I got to the crust of the sandwich I threw the crust, and maybe some residue of the egg into a trashcan and two grown men were fighting over that piece of bread. I realized just how impoverished so many of them were. You could get anything you wanted for a pack of cigarettes in port or on board ship. They would sew your clothes, put on your stripes, and shine your shoes. Anything! RC: Yes. BD: Just for a few yen. A pack of cigarettes that cost me six and a half cents a pack, I could get a whole carton for 65 cents, because we didn’t have to pay taxes on them. That's when I really developed a habit (laughs) I was 19 years old before I ever started smoking. I could afford that. Anytime I wasn’t asleep or eating or standing the watch, I usually had a cigarette. That was pretty much the way of so many of us. RC: Yes. BD: I didn't really take up the habit of drinking coffee like some of them did. But I learned afterwards. RC: See, I find that hard to believe since you like your coffee now! BD: Well, the thing of it was, I'd seen these fellas in there who were in Korea and they’d go around holding their backs when they were walking. You know. Their kidneys were damaged from 24-hours a day coffee...particularly whenever you were under general quarters. I mean, 10 �there were times where you would be out on exercises and you may stay under general quarters conditions for 36-hours or more. Sometimes it was actual things instead of just exercises. But, on one occasion when we were going over, we were going from Sasebo down to Hong Kong. We had a Russian submarine that surfaced within about 300 feet of us on our port side. They came by and we waved at each other. When we left San Francisco we got a contact…it was identified as an echo from a submarine. It was a solid echo back. It was not a whale or something…they make some noises that let you know that they are porpoises. They followed along with us for I think 36-hours...something like that, and it decided to leave us. We didn’t pursue it because we didn’t have any authority to challenge the submarine. But we sent code, American code, and we would try to send a message to it and ask him to give us their call letters or something or identify himself. But they wouldn’t answer us. But this (submarine) crew up on the deck and were waving at us. I thought this was a crazy war. We never did declare a war against Korea, yet we lost 37,000 men. It's still not considered a war. They just called it a “police action.” But I did have one shipmate that was killed. He was assigned on temporary duty to our sister ship and they took a shell...a projectile into their fire room, which is where the boilers are and it burst a 440-pound line. You can imagine what the super heated water felt like. When it was ruptured they were just like steam crabmeat…it was a tragic thing. He had been just put over there for 60 days of temporary duty and that was the only one we had aboard there from our ship that was killed. The only one we had on there who got a Purple Heart was a boy from Alabama. He and I used to go on liberties together. He was a clean-cut kid, he was straight-laced. We had our bunks in the same compartment with the deck force and the gunner's mates. When we were commissioned and I went aboard ship we were at operations with radar and radiomen and we'd stand watches with them even over there in Japan. The first time in Korea for the radar men. We would go in there and help them with the plotting and relaying messages to the Marine emplacements in Wonsan Harbor. They would give us requests for the coordinates for bombarding the Koreans. They chased a rabbit pretty far (laughs) but we got under fire in Wonsan there one night they got a little extra ammunition and they just decided to give us a thrill and we had to lay down. We had several times to lay down smoke screens because they didn’t have the type Russian guns that they did up there as when we were coming back from Vladivostok area. I assume that they were North Koreans. They might have been Chinese. But anyway, when we got under fire that night we had an executive officer who was being sent back to the states whenever we would get to port, two or three days later he was going be sent back for his discharge. He had been called up as a reserve, and he didn’t want to go back, he wanted to stay in. But when we got under so much fire that time, and they were just emptying their guns, it was like being fish in a bowl, the captain was in his officer's quarters and he gave a call up to the bridge 11 �and said, "Put the officer of the day on. What kind of a sailor would run from a fight?" He came up and took the command and relieved this man who was the executive officer (laughs) and just days later he was going out. I had two captains on there, both of them finished in the top five in their class at Annapolis. They were the first ones that we had on our first trip over to Korea. One of them got to announce the winner of the election between Stevenson and Eisenhower and when he got on the PA, he announced that the winner was Eisenhower. You could tell it in his voice he was excited about it happening that way because Stevenson was a Southern democrat from Tennessee and here Eisenhower was the big hero of Europe and had a chest full of ribbons. Everybody liked Ike. He would bring us sandwiches out there and things of this nature. If we were in port he would come by and see that we were cared for…he was just a real champion. We had any number of those. My anti-submarine warfare officer was a fellow, Couch, from Alabama. The University of Alabama, Bama Tide. We had another officer from Texas; just about as raunchy (laughs) they were real happy people. They would play tricks on one another and one of the most notorious ones I knew was that this officer from Southern Cal, who had been on the rowing team down there, he was a prankster. He was always getting calls down from the captain and he got up one night... he was on duty and he was going down to call his relief to wake him up. We were edgy when we were in waters with floating mines. This was after we had seen the train. He took a flashlight and he came to his relief and turned it on and came right at him and he said: "LOOK OUT FOR THE TRAIN!" When he did, the fellow officer jumped up and he hit his head on the bunk above it and the captain of course found out about it. He restricted him to the ship for three or four days. But they were all friends of mine. We didn’t go on liberty with them, because that was a “no-no.” But aboard ship we were just another one with them. It was enjoyable. When I was there in the sonar gang we had a real skillful man who was our senior petty officer and had 18 years in. He had been an instructor at the sonar school and out in the fleet and he was well respected by many of them out there because he'd trained them. He was sent back and assigned other duties and at that time I was second and I later advanced to first-class and I was the senior petty officer in the sonar gang. I got within two months of the time I was supposed to be discharged, they sent a chief sonar man there...one rating higher than I and he came in there with a chip on his shoulder. He was a pain in the neck. He would go into the chief’s mess hall and would get up and leave him. They wouldn't even sit in there and eat with him. He was just ornery. RC: Yes. BD: He came up there one day and I was having the 8pm-12am watch that night on the quarterdeck. We were in port at this time he said, "Downs, come out here. I'll take you up here on the quarter…up on the deck, and you can help me rig a stage. And clean the sides of the underwater battery plot and the sonar shack." We were having some kind of inspection the next 12 �day. Phil Roberts was with me in our sonar shack. We were the only two in there and so whenever he said that to me, Phil went over and turned the latch on to the thing that locked it through the bolt on the door, so nobody could come in. And I didn't ask him why. But this man kept mouthing off to me and I told him I said, "Look, I'll go out there and help you rig it and help you bring the water and cleaning materials but I'm not going over that side. You've had all day to get one of these seamen to go out over the side. Whatever it takes, but I'm not going over. You get out there and I'll hand it to you." And that's when Phil was certain we were going go to fists with each other. This man would challenge everybody under the sun. But that day with two of us in there and the door locked, he didn't challenge. I said, "Phil, what in the world did you do that for?'' He said, "I thought you were going to get in a fight with him and I was going swear that he took the first punch at you and we weren't going have anybody to swear otherwise." He was going to bear testimony to the fact that this chief had taken me out on it. But he went and got some seaman apprentice and stuck him over the side to clean the thing. This was already past the work hours and he'd decided then that it was time to do something that he'd been told to do that morning or something and he was going put on me. He was indebted to me because he didn’t know the equipment that we had. He had never even worked with it when he was assigned to us. He didn’t know how to maintain it and they had to get ready to go back to Guam. They were going to Guam so I was working on my equipment, tuning it and checking the supplies and things for us. I guess he decided that he would eat crow and we didn’t really have a congenial relationship after that, but he didn’t ride my back again. I'm not trying to say I was an antagonist, but I just had all of him that I could take [laughs]. I can still remember one night, we had a young man in our compartment, after they moved us from the operations division, and they put us in the gunnery division... all the sonar men were in the gunnery division, now you imagine! The reason they did it was because we had to maintain our depth charges and the head thrown weapons and forward patterns for weapons and things. We had to maintain them so we had to work with the gunners' mates because we had to take the primers out of the depth charges. The depth charger was fragile, because your hand friction could set those things off. It was pretty highly explosive stuff. So they put us in the gunnery division and we were in there with the deck force...that's the boats and gunner's mates. We had had a compartment just for the operations division and they put us in there with all the engineers that came through the same compartment. So I got to know everybody on that ship. The first time they sent us over there, when they commissioned the ship, it could accommodate 187 men and maybe something like 15 or 17 officers. But they assigned us over 300 on that thing. All of them didn't have bunks, you know, it's sort of like being on a submarine where there're hot bunked. 13 �You get out and somebody else gets in. It was a mess for that first trip over there. I mean, we had over 100 more people on that thing than what we were entitled to. I don't remember now, but it was a whole lot. I made some friends there. I have had three of them to contact me. Two of them came to visit me. And some of those fellas are trying to write a history. It was a unique experience, all of it. And I'm glad I was there because it made possible for me to come back and finish my college education. RC: Yes. BD: And it pretty well covered my expenses. If I had gone ahead with my medical school…I was accepted in '57, the fall of '57, and I left in about February of 1958. I would have been in the class of '61. I had all of that taken care of by my GI Bill, basically. But what happened…when I withdrew, being under duress to do it, they considered that I had abandoned college. If you were out over three or four months or something in your studies in pursuit of your degree, you lost your GI Bill. And I didn’t have enough money to continue. RC: Yes. BD: And that's how I left med school and the Lord called me to something else. RC: Well, I was going to ask…did your time in the service have any influence on you becoming a minister? BD: I'll tell you what. I've never had any experience that I didn't see entering into plans for my life. I meant by that that the two most influential courses that I ever took as far as strengthening my convictions about my Christian faith, was the study of embryology in preparation for school. When I came back out of the Navy in January of 1956…'55 (laughs) I'll get it right in a minute...when I came out in '55, I had less than a week at home before I enrolled at Wake Forest. I couldn't enter into the chemistry courses...basic chemistry courses because they didn't have a first semester course, so the chairman of the biology department was my faculty advisor and he said, “I see that you want to go to med school. You're going to need two courses and you can do that this semester, embryology and comparative anatomy. Both of them were rigorous classes and I thought…I don’t need to think about this when this man is the head of the department. He will have to okay the recommendations in med school for the biology department. Actually you had to go to the chairmen of biology, chemistry, and physics, and get departmental interviews with the faculties and a composite recommendation for med school. So I took him at his word and I got in the class and took embryology and that was one of the most revealing courses I ever took. The first trimester of pregnancy was not only the discussion of the growth that was happening but the microscopic scale of the human embryo in the first trimester of pregnancy. When I encountered that passage of the scripture from the psalms that said we are fearful and wonderfully made…everything I saw gave me insight to nature, as well as, in babies and everything else. So we're God's children. 14 �Then I took neuro-anatomy in med school. That’s the whole nervous system, the special senses and all. You study the human eye and the human ear, taste, the special senses. I don't know how anybody can accept Darwin's theory on the birth of a child. I don't...it boggles my mind that they could swallow whole the theory of evolution because there’s too much evidence of a divine hand in the creation of a child. I believe with all my heart the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis. That that's the way the Lord intended it to be…that he honored us by giving us privilege. So I've been a champion for opposing abortion on demand. I know what spontaneous abortion is. I saw it with Sarah Catherine and her first pregnancy. No, I'm sorry, it was probably her third. She had miscarried twice. But one of the most moving things that I had in med school was a visit to a nursing home, a rest home, with my brother-in-law who was a Baptist minister. We visited a woman…one of his parishioners from Asheville. She was probably 94 or 96 years old. Then I went as a student to an autopsy... and there was this woman that I had seen a month before. That was when I came face to face with…what I mean, that woman was ready for it. My last autopsy…there was a kid who'd endeared himself to everybody and he was fighting for life. All the nurses and doctors would come by and they cooed at him. He wasn’t an infant, he was a young child. For my last autopsy here was this little fella. That may have entered into my loss of desire to pursue (laughs) medicine. RC: Yes. BD: Its all those things that I studied there. I appreciate having studied physiology, pharmacology, and neurology. I don't feel like any of it was wasted. I have a greater appreciation for life and a greater desire to see people have quality in their life, whether it's materially or education. RC: Do you think that if you had decided to be a corpsman, it would have changed your... BD: I probably would have been drafted into the Marines if I had finished corps school. RC: Yes. BD: Because that was the big demand during that time. The corpsman. Just about anybody who was a corpsman...even a career man...they pulled time with the Marines. RC: Yes. BD: That’s the reason so many of these gentlemen received the Congressional Medal of Honor. I think one of the first recipients in the current conflicts over in Afghanistan, was a hospital corpsman with the Navy. RC: Yes. BD: But he was with the Marines… 15 �RC: D you think that if you had been a corpsman you would have finished med school or do you think you would have stayed in? BD: No, no, I probably would’ve been soured of it (laughs) if I had stayed in. RC: Yes? BD: What? RC: Yes, I can imagine. BD: We had a doctor assigned to us one time when we were...we had what they called the division commander of our division, which were eight destroyer escorts. They put him aboard our ship and so he was higher ranked than our captain, but he had command over eight ships in this division. I was going to throw out a tidbit but I can't remember now what I was chasing. See that's what I told you was going happen (laughs). I hit a snag and stop. Oh, but the doctor that we had aboard ship…he was an obstetrician gynecologist...on a ship that didn't have a woman on it! That's where the navy had put him. I got to talk to him a whole lot while I was an enlisted man. He would be out on the deck and coming around. We were not permitted to go down there just anytime during the day and he didn’t have to unless you were sick. Then they would transfer you to a vessel that could take care of you. RC: Yes. BD: He was out there and he wasn’t even in the same milieu that the rest of us were in (laughs). I don't even remember whether the fella smoked or not, but he was like a fish out of the water. You can imagine spending that much time and getting an education and doing a residency after four years of med school, an internship, three years of residency and they stick you out there on a destroyer escort with a bunch of dirty old men. Those were some of the things that I knew I didn’t want to do. RC: Yes. BD: (Laughs) But I did do vascular research so that was really not in the Navy that was after I left med school. RC: Did you do your four years in the navy and leave or… BD: No, I didn't stay in. I had an opportunity to reenlist. In fact, I was going tell you that Phil Roberts, you know, I may have mentioned, that both of us had the opportunity to apply for officer's candidate school on the basis of our rank...I mean our rating and our grades on our competitive scores. RC: Yes. 16 �BD: But no, I didn't have a desire to want to stay in there till I was 1962. I didn't want to be an admiral. RC: You would make a good one. BD: (laughs) No, I wouldn't! I'd have been an ornery cuss! I'd been so miserable with the service that by the time I got that I would have never made it. RC: You know what I've never asked you? BD: What? RC: If you’ve had a nickname? BD: Oh, I've had handfuls of nicknames. Bill's a nickname? RC: Well, yes. But I mean like... BD: When I was in boot camp, I went in there with a group of men from North Carolina. There were eight of us who were sworn in the same night. They took us right from the office in Raleigh and put us on a train and sent us to Atlanta, Georgia, and on up to San Diego. There were four of us. One of them was a student at NC State, another one had been to UNC, and one was seeking admission into ROTC at Duke. So we had a Dukey, a Tar Heel, and a Wolfpacker. And they found out I had gone to Wake Forest for the better part of one semester. They knew that my heart was there, so they got to calling me “Deacon.” Everybody in my platoon when I was in boot camp knew me because I was the mail clerk. I wasn't tall enough to be the head of my column; I had two taller men ahead of me. But I would always get sent out early to go get the mail for them and then come back and call mail. Then they placed on me responsibilities for accounting for every rifle making certain that they were all still available, that they were still in their possessions. So each morning I would go around to each bunk and see if they had their rifles and get a head count. I had a lot of opportunities so they got to calling me “Preacher Deacon.” Some of them didn't know what a deacon was so they called me preacher. I thought isn’t this something? That's how ironic…because that's where I wound up! RC: Yes. BD: But I didn't have any intentions of it. I wanted to be a doctor from the time I was six years old. I did before even my brother Posey… RC: So you wanted to be a doctor, but you went into the Navy? BD: What? 17 �RC: Was the Navy to pay for your school? BD: Well, we had what you call the GI Bill. RC: Yes. BD: And if you’d been in the military and pulled as many years in there as I did, you would have 36-months of schooling paid for. RC: Yes. BD: And I finished the rest of my college in three semesters and two summers. I went every summer session and finished in August. It was on the 11th of August, and on the 18th of August I married Patsy. I entered med school on the first day of October. So, I didn’t have any real break in over four years. RC: Yes. BD: After I came out of the Navy, I failed the six weeks portion of the three-trimester course and I knew it was going cost me a year to make it up. So I just asked for permission to withdraw. And when I applied for readmission I didn’t have the opportunity to get in. They had it filled up with transfers from other schools and from the University of Havana when Castro took over down there. So I did vascular research for 26-months and then went to work with Roche Laboratories as a medical service representative...or as a detail man as they call it. I did that for nearly five years before I went into the ministry. But all that took care of the other. RC: Yes. BD: It's sort of a circuitous way to get there. RC: Well, you got there. BD: Having gone through seminary…I came out and decided to go to truck driver training school. After I served churches for 25 years (laughs) and came to Johnston Community College here in Smithfield, I finished my eight week course...eight hours a day...40 hours a week, driving trucks and tractor trailers. I got my class ACTL there at age 59 (laughs) and so I spent those last seven years of employment driving for hire. My first job was with a company hauling rock and asphalt. And sometimes I would make over 76 hours, that was the most I ever had in one week. Some of drivers had as much as 92 hours in a week. They didn't have to keep a log that you have to for interstate trucking. As long as you could stay out there and drive a truck they were paying, you could stay out there and work. So I did that and then whenever they decided to shut down for winter because they didn’t have the equipment that they do now for keeping the asphalt warm, they let us all go. The ones that 18 �were hauling asphalt, they just kept a few of them to haul other handling that they had for removing trash or whatever it was. But I got a job with the florist and my job with them was with a wholesaler. After about three months of that, I went to work with them for 90 days or so. One of the customers told the owner not to send me there anymore. They said I was rough-handed with the flowers and she spent time picking out the ones she wanted, she didn’t want me to bruise them (laughs). So I had to find me a job. I went over to the Mayflower Trucking Company and the man who was my first driving instructor; he went with me on my first trip in a truck. He had gone to work with them in charge of the drivers with the fleet and hired me. I was the oldest one in my class and because he was too young, he was 19, and I was 60 (laughs). Mutt and Jeff or the white headed man and the kid. It was a neat experience. I worked for them and the City of Raleigh. I've done a little bit of a lot of things. Never was master of any of them. But I love my youngins and my grand-youngins and I’ve got a whole heap of them. Faye and I received grandchildren and great-grandchildren and children from all over the world. They’ve asked us to be their papas and mamas and grandparents. RC: Yes. Well, is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven't touched on? BD: Well, I didn't tell you about my sporting. I did play...did go out for football in sonar school. RC: You did not! BD: Yes I... I didn't tell you about it? RC: No! Tell me about it. BD: While I was in sonar school they had tryouts for it. And I had played in four football games. I went out for football and by the end of the fourth game we didn’t have enough able-bodied people out there to even go. I walked through the drills, you know, in the week. We only had 27 to start off with and we got down to where we had less than 22. We lost ten of them. We cancelled the rest of the season and so I went for an end and a place kicker. I stayed with it through the first four games of the season and realized it was a matter of cronyism. I mean, it really was. The coach had evidently been a good player for Michigan State but he was a “good old boy” with the others…some of them had been with the fleet…the first class petty officers and chiefs. He had been in there probably 12 or 15 years. Those who come back out of the fleet to go there were not necessarily in the training commands. At that particular time they had been in there…they played together. They would come out there and go through the motions. But many of them would not even come to practice. They came out there dressed on Friday night or Saturday afternoon or evening...whenever we had games. And you wouldn't see them again during the week. They knew the plays, they thought, and the old coach would put them in there. And after the fourth game I said this is a 19 �losing battle and it opened up that I could go to a ship, a destroyer escort, right in the town of Vallejo, where my sister and her hubby lived out in California. They put me in close contact with my family. So I bumped a fella who was lower-ranked in my sonar class than I get on there (laughs) and so that’s how I got on the Vammen. RC: Wow. BD: And so I mean I chose it. I mean, they gave us choices on the basis of our positions in the class. I did it because it was in Vallejo and I knew it was there and hadn't been commissioned. And it really made a difference. RC: Yes. BD: I made some lifelong friends. I've had two of them that I have maintained some contact with. Two of them were really buddies of mine went on liberties while I was in sonar school. But they were with me for two years before they went into submarines. One of them came to visit Faye and me before we were married. We were engaged. He called us from the Outer Banks and said he had never been to North Carolina before. So he said while he was here he would come by and see Downs (laughs). No, I had some fantastic buddies in the Navy that I wouldn't take anything for. That picture up there, I think I did that on my first liberty in Sasebo, Japan. The Japanese artist that used colored pencils…it looked pretty much like I did but I had a skinnier facial features and a longer nose than I think I've got (laughs). RC: I love you. Thanks for doing this with me! BD: You’re welcome. RC: An hour and thirty five minutes! BD: Oh, my goodness! RC: I could sit here and listen to you talk for another two hours if you wanted to. BD: No, I'll tell you what...Faye told me not to be verbose (laughs). RC: I would love nothing more than to sit here for another two hours and listen to you talk. BD: No, I've got all kinds of tales about my shipmates. RC: Well, if you want to tell them, I'd love to hear them. BD: (Chuckles) No, well, not for the record. 20 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2172afd028eb09ad77243b3470b872d2.mp3 ea4c2febca3e60159c697c661673ebe9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Downs, William Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Crisp, Rachel Interview Date 10/13/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:38:18 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Pinetopes, Edgecombe, Navy, Edwards Military Institute, Jack Lucas, Congressional Medal of Honor, sonar, USS Vammen, destroyer escort, Korea, San Diego, Japan, Wonsan Harbor, China, Wake Forest, Tokyo Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Downs, 13 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 Downs, William Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Rachel Crisp interviews Bill Downs about his experiences in the United States Navy during the Korean War. He grew up on campus at the Edwards Military Institute, and eventually began working in sonar aboard the USS Vammen. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Downs, William Crisp, Rachel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 20 pages Language A language of the resource English Edwards Military Institute sonar US Navy USS Vammen https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/93c47b258fb9502e4d561b22cb433ad1.pdf bb3566de9ac96ac5b84485c247948f7f PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Jack Wayne Alexander Mercersburg, Pennsylvania 15 October 2011 SB: Sean Bolick JA: Jack Alexander SB: Alright, this is Sean Bolick I am here with my grandfather Jack Alexander at his home in Mercersburg, Pennsylvania to conduct an interview about his time in the military. The day is Friday October 14, 2011. So to start off can I get when and where you were born? JA: I was born in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania on November 9, 1924. SB: Now did you have any siblings growing up? JA: Yes, I had three brothers and two sisters. SB: What made you decide to join the military? Were you drafted or did you enlist? JA: I enlisted, but I enlisted in the Aviation Cadet Program. I was always wanting to learn to fly ever since I was wee little and when I was in high school and junior high I used to hitch hike out to the local airport and wash airplanes or anything for a ride. SB: Did any of your family influence you to also go into aviation? JA: There was no influence but I had a brother that was in the Army Air Corps as an enlisted man and then he ended up as a bombardier. SB: Once you...when did exactly you decide to enlist? Do you remember when that was? JA: I don’t remember exactly when that was. Could have been...had to been in '43. SB: How old were you? JA: I was well ... depends on what time in '43. Either 17 or 18. I graduated from high school when I was 17. SB: Do you recall your signing up and going to the recruiting station or anything like that and that experience? JA: Not really, it was 1943 so there were a lot of servicemen being enlisted and that impressed you. SB: Now from there where did you go for your initial training? 1 �JA: Well I went to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to take my examination. And I had to go twice. I passed the written and the physical except my weight. I was 12 pounds underweight so I had to gain 12 pounds. SB: What did you do to have to gain those 12 pounds? JA: Well, eat bananas and drink milk and I went back the next week and I had gained twelve pounds. But it's about 45-48 mile from Uniontown to Pittsburgh where I lived and I had a sack of bananas on the seat and a quart of milk and I did that on the way down. So when I got there the sergeant happened to be from Uniontown too that I knew. He weighed me and he says I can't believe it. In a week you gained 12 pounds. He said, “It’s got to be true because you sure don't have any pockets.” SB: So once you got there and made the weight, where did they send you from Pittsburgh? JA: Well, I went from there to Keesler Field in (Biloxi), Mississippi and that was a basic training field for the Army Air Corps. SB: And can you tell me a little bit about your basic training experience? How that went. JA: Well, I was probably one of the smallest ones in the whole unit. But I had no problems when we were doing our running or hiking or this and that. I took a lot of kidding from the other people the rest of the week but when we got into something like that I was able to kid them because it was a lot easier for me then. SB: Now as somebody whose been through basic training themselves. Did you have any; I know for me, did you have any memorable instructors? Anybody there like a drill sergeant that you remember distinctly? Any characters? JA: Yes, memories weren't too good (laughs). SB: Do you have any stories in particular that stand out to you about your basic training experience? JA: Not really. I guess I was kind of different cause I enjoyed what we were doing you know while the other people were all upset about it and doing this thing I seemed to enjoy it. SB: What exactly in particular did you enjoy about it? Was it the training or the... JA: Well, it was the training SB: Do you remember about what time you completed the training, got done with your initial basic training phase? 2 �JA: We had I think...I'm not sure now. Oh I think it was about...14 weeks of basic training and then we were sent to a unit to decide where they want to send you and whether you were going to be classified a bombardier, a navigator, or a pilot. So that decided which field you went into. SB: Do you remember how they made that decision? JA: I guess it was through your request things you did in basic training and examinations that you took and what you were adept for. SB: Did you go through with a big class then in '43? Was it...do you remember about how big you guys were? JA: It was a pretty good size class but I couldn’t tell you how...it'd be wrong if l could just guessing now but I would suppose it was about 50 at the time. SB: What did you request after leaving basic training as far as your follow on, what did you want to do? JA: To go to pilot training. SB: Did you have a preference about what you wanted to be flying or JA: No, you had no control or no thoughts even. You had to go to primary training school first for primary training SB: Can you tell me a little about the primary training school? JA: Well, it was a single engine aircraft built by Fairchild here in Hagerstown ironically now. It was about, you got about 65 hours in the airplane at that time and you were given a flight test and things with check pilots and decided whether you were going on to that or taken off 9F pilot training and go to bombardier navigator training if you couldn’t fly. SB: Now you mentioned the selection process. What did exactly they decide that you were going to be doing? JA: Well, you didn't know until you went through the other two phases of basic training in a BT13 and advanced training where they sent you. They were all different fields and different places. But after I left Mississippi, the bases were in Texas, and ah, Corsicana; and Greenville and Eagle Pass. After Advanced, then they had to decide where they wanted to send you, to what type of flying; single engine or multi-engine or what. SB: And where did you end up getting sent? JA: I got sent to single engine, like I said, to Corsicana or Greenville or Eagle Pass. And then after you finished your training, about 65 or 70 hours in advanced training, then the ones that were going to be fighter pilots spent about 10-hours in a P-40. And that was the greatest 3 �excitement you ever had to get into something that powerful at that stage. And then they decided where they wanted to send you. And different phases of fighters at which kind of units. I got sent to TAC Recon School, which was...a version of the P-51. But you didn’t know any of this at that time but as you got there and got acquainted with it and the people, the P-51 had a camera mounted vertically in front of the air scoop on the right side of the airplane, missing the wing so you could take pictures. And we had bunch of different things that was longer than the fighter pilot. I had probably about seven or eight months just in reconnaissance. Because you learned to take pictures and to adjust artillery and also to support troops. You had all your firepower in that airplane. It wasn’t a stripped airplane. You had your guns and they were mounted. So you could go out on missions to take pictures or adjust artillery or what you were going to do. You had another airplane with you. You always went out in pairs. SB: Do you have any memorable experiences from that portion of your training, getting into your P-51s for the first time? JA: Well, you were just overwhelmed by it. And the P-51 was brand new. And we thought when we flew this P-40 fighter in advanced when we left there it was something. And it was really funny how we got sent there. There was about 60 or 70 in our class and 2 of us got sent to F-6 school which was the fighter version. The only F-6 I ever heard of was a Navy Hellcat. And I couldn't understand the “F-6.” What's this?" One of the men went and got it and here it was the photo version of the Mustang. Boy we were overwhelmed. SB: So we've discussed a little about the training so far. Now while you guys were there, did you have any down time? Were you able to go on leave? What were the conditions like for you as cadets? JA: Well, after we finished cadet training, we were given a leave. And that's when I first met your (grand) mother. When I come home, and of course we lived in Uniontown, and that was a town of about 28,000 people I guess or something like that. There was a war going on and I come home a hotshot pilot, in this officer's uniform and everything and I thought I was about the hottest thing Uniontown ever saw. The story, one evening, it was in the Christmas time and of course your grandmother lived a little bit out of town and the townships weren't running the school buses. And they wanted to go a basketball game that night. So she stayed in town with my sister. That's when I met her, when I was home on leave. And I considered them the little kids, you know. But she was only three years younger than I was. I took them, gas rationing and everything, and this car; I took them to this basketball game. And then I went to pick up a girlfriend that I had a date with that night and we went out. I got back in, what was it, about 2:00 in the morning or something. I'm not going to tell you the bathroom story. But she wasn’t very impressed with me. And I was really impressed with her. She was a beautiful girl. When I came home from the service she wouldn’t go out with me for about two years after the war ended. But I finally hooked her. 4 �SB: We’ll go on and talk about when you got back to training. Do you have any memorable experiences? JA: The most memorable occasion I had…we were going out for training in Mustangs with our flight, which was four of us. Our leader was Major O'Riggan. And three of us were a wing for him. We were scheduled to do high altitude acrobatics above 20,000 feet. And we were doing “Immelmanns,” which is like a loop and when you get to the top, instead of going on over, you roll out and go the other direction. So technically the Air Force called it a 180-degree change in direction with an increase in altitude. Well we had done one and we were doing the second one. And I flew his wing. And as I rolled out over my back the airplane stalled. And started to spin, flat, upside down. And Major O'Riggan radioed and said "Jack, if you can't get out of it, bail out!" But I had taught students in advanced training acrobatics before I got sent to TAC recon school and I wasn’t concerned about it. It was a powerful airplane and just getting out of spin, you know, that wasn't anything. So I tried to do the normal things you do in a spin. If it's spinning to the right, you lead with full rudder to the right and throttle back. And then when you have the turn-stop, you dump the stick and come on with full power and that would come out of the spin. Well, this one just went the other way every time I did it. It started about 20,000 feet and O'Riggan kept hollering at me. He said, "Bail out!" So finally he said, "I said bail out." And I looked and saw how close to the ground I was and I decided I better get out. The bailout procedure for the Mustang, and of course you never do these things, so your first experience is your first experience. And you are supposed to lower the seat and drop your head and pull the canopy release. It's not like now they have canopies that roll off. This canopy was supposed to, you pulled the pin so the air was supposed to take it off, and well it didn't. It just slid back on the rail. And so I'm spinning one way, and then the other way and losing altitude fast. I raised my anus and hit the canopy and bumped it and it went off. I started to jump out and you want to, in a spin you want to jump inside the spin so the tail is going away from you so you don't hit the tail. And no one explained to me that the wing is coming at you though. And I didn’t leave the wing enough so when I jumped out, well, before that even, you don't want to get excited and pull the ripcord or anything to soon because the parachute might open and catch the tail. And you’ll go down with the airplane. So I had my hand on the ripcord and then I thought, no you can’t do that, and get excited and pull it. It's a good thing I didn’t because I hit the wing and then I just pulled to the end of the wing and slid off it. Then when the tail cleared me I pulled the ripcord and the chute opened. And I was looking for the airplane after I got in the chute and I saw it below me. It just did a tum and a half and hit the ground and exploded. And it happened to be down in Mississippi and I was coming down in the middle of about 4,000 acres of virgin timber, all pine trees about 40 foot high. And here I am a skinny little thing and the airplane; no one knew anyone was in it. I figured I was going to hang up in that tree with that parachute about 40 feet up. The flight is looking for me but they can't find me. And they keep circling and circling and I'm trying to find, I want to get down to where I 5 �can signal them. And strangely enough, I come down through all those trees right to the ground, with the parachute with me. They tell you that part of that training is don't throw the parachute away or don’t leave it. It’s a hammock, a cover at night, you know, and will help you survive if you are in an area where you can't be found. Well did you ever try to carry a 28-foot canopy chute open through the forest? And I finally found a little place that was open wide enough and they were circling right over the trees, the three of them, and finally I was able to wave at O’Riggan and he rocked his wings and I knew they saw me and would go back and report it. Just as I went into the trees I saw, am I boring you? I mean, should I go on? SB: Yes, yes. JA: I saw this log road to the right. And I thought well if keep walking this direction, I'll when hit that road and I'll tum left and start walking out to civilization somewhere. Well, unbeknownst to me, there was a bunch of Mississippi lumbermen working there at that time and they were watching us. And they were really excited. Well they saw me bail out. And they started to me and started to me and they started to holler. And I holler back, I just sat down and hollered back. And they came. And it's funny, poor old minimum educated log men from Mississippi during the war. I can remember the one came up to me and he looked and saw that parachute, with all that white silk. And he said, "My God, no wonder my wife can't get any underclothes." And they insisted on carrying me. They wouldn’t even let me walk. They patched up where I was cut on the legs on my parachute some were tore out...legs on the parachute I mean flight suit. And they carried me to the ranger station and called the base you know. Well I tried to tell them that...you know, I knew O'Riggan would send, they'd be sending a car out in that area to hunt for me. Well, they had everything and we were really tickled to death because they thought I was a hero. I didn’t do anything but lose one of their expensive airplanes. But its, instead of a staff car coming for me or a car where I could ride back to the base, the ambulance came. When these guys called back to base they got the base and they sent an ambulance out too and this sergeant patched everything up, else up and looked me over and I told him, I said, "Sergeant, operations is sending a staff car out for me and I'll just wait here." And he said, "Oh no you won't," and so he says "you're going with me," he says "if I get back to that base and you’re not in that ambulance...the chief medical man will crucify me, you’re going with us." And I couldn't out, out rule him you know although I over ranked and you know. So I had to get in with them and as we got out on the road, main road and turned on the main road here come the staff car the other way and I tried to get him to stop but he wouldn't, he let them go. What’s funny, at the beginning-of this thing how I got this airplane, it wasn't the one I was training in my own the one assigned to me which was painted OD (olive drab). This was a brand new P-51…it was shiny and silver and no paint and I thought boy when we go out on that mission I'll give these guys a fit cause I have a better, the better equipment. Well unbeknownst to me, something wrong with it. I was coming from the base hospital walking back to my barracks and I met this friend of mine and he was coming the other way and he said, "What airplane were you flying?" and I didn’t know the number of that one because it wasn't the one that was, I wasn’t assigned to it and in my tom pocket I got the operation sheet out and I still remember the number, last four numbers: 1914. And he says to me "Let me shake your hand, I 6 �flew that airplane yesterday and I wrote it up. There's something wrong with it. It's not to be flown. It's a test op by engineering." And probably what happened was it was a brand new airplane and everything and some second lieutenant that read this maintenance sheet says oh that lieutenant doesn’t know what he was talking about, this is a new airplane and he ignored that and put it back on the line. Well what had happened it was a...they called it captive air. We didn’t get to fly them but new recruits or new pilots coming in that was to check out in it, it was mounted on concrete blocks at level flight altitude so they could get in it and work the gears and the flaps and the systems and start it up and nm it up. Well when you got an airplane bolted wings and it’s sitting at level flight and you start that engine and run it and run1400 horsepower and it can’t go and these guys are running the power up on it and it sprung it. And that’s what was out of rig. So that's, I had to go to a hearing for the accident and he got up and testified cause this engineering one wanted to crucify me for ruining a new Mustang. He got up and testified, it was the story I had just told about flying it the day before and wrote it up. So they exonerated me. Its funny...anything else or? The base in this hearing, this colonel he come up to me after the hearing he says "Jack I'm going to shake your hand and I'm going to thank you," he says, "We been trying to get rid of that guy for a long time and now we can do it." And then they did. Well every time I'd go out to get an airplane to go fly one crew chief would holler at my crew chief, "Hey Edelburg, take the papers out of that airplane he ain't going to bring it back." And then they got on my back and said that if l got two more Mustangs I was going to be a German ace. Fortunately, I didn’t do that but I tried to hide after that and I shouldn’t talk about being in a bar but the colonel and his wife came in, the base commander. She was a real petite sweet thing and he was a big burly guy you know. He came in and I saw him coming and I dipped way down and tried to look all insignificant and he come by and he said, "What are you looking for a rematch?" But that was my most exciting experience I think in training. SB: Now I've seen a newspaper article that talked about you and your brothers I saw being in service at the same time. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what that was like for your family to have all of you in service, in uniform? JA: Well, it was kind of hard on mother and dad I guess. I had a brother Joe, the oldest one. He was assigned to an anti-aircraft...my brother Dick had been a musician all his life so, I mean he graduated from high school two years ahead of time and music was his life and he wanted to go, this was during the war, the war had started this was about 1944, he wanted to study arranging and composing and he went there and he was too young to join the union. So he had to take a job playing. He played bass fiddle and bass wherever he could go and they...he got to play with some of the big bands then and really on tour maybe all over the United States and the draft board had been hunting him, they couldn’t find him cause he wasn’t in one place long enough. I was, started training out and I went to a college training detachment for, I forgot to say, six weeks before you went to flying school. He stopped in he had been playing in a town near and he 7 �wanted to know if he could get if I thought, he was my older brother and the really bright one, if he could get in the service, Air Force. Yes, so he went and took his exam and got in and he was classified as a bombardier. So he ended up flying as a bombardier on B-29's. And then I had the brother next to me that’d gone in, quit high school, went into the Army Air Corps in 1937 when the army was real small and the Air Corps. Most of the people were in the service then as enlisted personnel or…they couldn’t get a job and they did that. But he had a, my mother had a fit when he said he wanted to enlist and my dad thought that was a good idea for him before he ended up with a problem so he did and he ended as a staff sergeant in the peacetime Air Force before he was 20 years old, which was amazing and he was a commanding officer’s crew chief. This captain...he was portrayed in papers after that in Terry and the Pirates and he was his crew chief. But he couldn't learn to fly because he hadn’t had college and this was back before we had really had went so he went over the hill and joined the Canadian Air Force to learn to fly in Canada. And they found out he was an American soldier and sent him back and Cocheran busted him to a buck sergeant. He said, "You want to fly so bad, I'll send you to flying school." And he sent him to pilot training with his orders to train and he ended up and he stayed in for 20 years. Four of us in the service in this article you were talking about in the paper was about how very odd it was for one family to have four sons in the service and they're all officers. And that's the way it ended but it’s just because, the only reason he got to be an officer was... cause when you went through pilot training they gave it to you. Wasn't anything you really had to do. It was good, I can’t complain. SB: Did any of your brothers give you any advice, any of the older ones when you enlisted? Any words of advice to you? JA: Well, this brother next to me that had been in so long you know. Do what they tell you, yes sir, no sir, no excuse sir. That’s the way it was. I didn’t get to see any of them after that until the war ended. It was funny, the brother next to me was what, Waite would be about five years older than me. We looked alike and of course he had gone into the Army Air Corps when it was wee little in 1937 and almost everybody knew almost everybody else. And I'd be on a base going out to an airplane or something and some crew chief would say "Hey Al, hey Al." No one called me Al. So I'd go over and say "Sergeant, you call me?" and he said, "Sure, don’t you know me from Mitchell Field, Langley Field?" And here he was with my brother and I'd say "Oh you must mean my brother." “My gosh," he said "your twins!" That’s with five years difference. But that was a family experience too, to have people then but these old crew chiefs and sergeants really knew each other and stuck together. SB: Now do you remember where you were, we kind of talked about when the war ended, not seeing your brothers until the war ended. Do you remember where you were when the war ended? JA: Well, yeah we were...had all new gear ordered and now it was onboard ship and everything and all our belongings and we were on our way to Okinawa. The war ended. 8 �SB: I bet you definitely remember that then. JA: Oh, yes. SB: How much longer after that were you in the service? JA: Well then after that when you know the Japs surrendered they started releasing people...I got out probably three months later. SB: So you went home after that? Did you do anything else once you got out of the service? JA: Yes, I worked for a contractor and I went back to working for him and he wanted to get an airplane and I went and flew for him ...and that was pretty nice... ended up staying in civilian corporations (audio fades out)...he sold to them ...owner here in Mercersburg is how I got here and then we merged with American-Marietta and he, American-Marietta merged with Martin so I flew for American-Marietta and Martin-Marietta and then they wanted me to move to Baltimore and I didn't want to go down there. And I went with Fairchild, worked with Fairchild until I retired. There were different airplanes that we built (audio fades out)...I was too lazy to work and too nervous to steal that’s the reason I flew. SB: So looking back now on your military experience how would you describe it? JA: It was great, I...looking back on it I didn't take advantage of some of the things I could of and I often wish that I would have stayed in because I was so young, stayed in twenty years I'd have had a good retirement out of it. But then of course you had the Korean War and Vietnam War and a lot of things could have happened in the meantime. SB: I'll go ahead and conclude the interview at this time. I'd like to thank you very much for your time. JA: Well, thank you. You are certainly welcome I hope I didn't bore you too much. 9 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/861c4a8622b50c863364ad29464e0761.mp3 b24d0e631862d9d325ce6501e83e46f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Alexander, Jack W. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Bolick, Sean Interview Date 10/15/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:32 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Pennsylvania, Mercersburg, Pittsburgh, Aviation Cadet Program, Keesler Field, Army Air Corps, pilot, P-51, P-40, Immelmanns, Mississippi, World War II Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Wayne Alexander, 15 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 Air pilots, Military Alexander, Jack Wayne Veterans Veterans Interviews United States Description An account of the resource Jack W. Alexander, interviewed by Sean Bolick, was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on November 9, 1924. Alexander talks about his experiences as a pilot during World War II. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexander, Jack Wayne Bolick, Sean Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 9 pages Language A language of the resource English Aviation Cadet Program fighter pilot Pittsburgh WWII https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/76c8f54905cedf5afd015685f69a35ae.pdf c64f224c65f9e42ed1a9475f13dcc3cd PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript George Murphy Johnson County, NC 16 October 2011 PM: Patrick Murphy GM: George Murphy PM: This is Patrick Murphy interviewing George Murphy for the veteran’s oral history project. It is the 16th of October and I am at George’s house in Johnston County. Can you please state your full name? GM: George Richard Murphy. PM: What branch of the Military did you serve in? GM: The United States Army! PM: What reasons did you have for joining? GM: I didn’t have any choice. PM: So you were drafted. GM: yes. PM: How did that feel? GM: Oh, not uncommon because at that time the only deferments from the military were for medical school and any one, male, who was physically able was being inducted into the army because we have the draft at that time which we don’t have any more. PM: What year was this? GM: 1968. PM: Alright what branch of the military did you serve in? GM: I served in the Army. I went into the Amy in October of 1968 and was discharged in April or May of 1970. PM: Where did you go to boot camp? GM: I went to basic training at Fort Dix, New Jersey for eight weeks for just basic military skills. After then I was transferred to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for what they called advanced infantry training commonly known as AIT. And I went to gunnery school at Fort Sill. I came out my MOS or military occupational specialty with a 13 Eco 20, which means I was a battalion fire 1 �directional controller for the artillery. I did not shoot guns all I did was compute firing coordinates. PM: Would you have considered yourself good at math? GM: My worst subject why I was at school was math and I wind up doing nothing but math the whole time I am in the Army, which is traditional the way the army, does things. PM: What’s your most memorable experiences of boot camp or any training camp that you went through? GM: Probably in basic training. I suppose it was firing weapons some of the weapons I had never seen before. I had spent a lot of time on a farm and we always had guns. One thing I remember especially was the seven mile walks or marches to the firing range, and spending the night in a tent it was snowing, and what did we call it? Riding in cattle cars what were basically semis behind tractors and they would load everyone up in them. That was basically it. It was an experience. And that was when I was at Fort Sill; it was absolutely gorgeous just how big it is. With the animals and all they have a game preserve out there. But the main thing I did was just like being in college I went to class eight hours a day. And then firing, something you will never do in civilian life was firing 155mm howitzers, which was an experience. Oh, I liked that they had tracks so they were movable riding in a tracked howitzer back in forth to the gunnery ranges was something I had never done and never plan on doing again. PM: When did you deploy to Vietnam and where exactly did you deploy to? GM: When I finished gunnery school at Fort Sill I got leave to come back to North Carolina about two weeks. I received orders to go to Fort Lewis, Washington form that I was deployed there to Cam Ranh Base, South Vietnam. And we flew from Fort Lewis to Alaska to Japan to arriving at Cam Ranh Bay. Cam Ranh Bay was a huge air port outside right on the coast of Vietnam and the thing I remember the most is when they shut the air plane down we had landed, they opened doors about a quarter to 12, about 15 minutes to midnight and it was still 95 degrees out and it was absolutely it took me four weeks get acclimated to country to stop sweating it was so humid so hot. PM: Just miserable conditions? GM: Miserable. I didn’t have a dry stitch of clothing for four weeks. But then once you get acclimated it is not all that bad but until you do its absolutely miserable. PM: After you landed at that base where did you deploy to? GM: What they did was, we spent the night in a transit barracks and then you stay there until you get orders to go to your unit. I was there about a day and a half and I got orders to go up to Chu Lai, which I am not really sure of the mileage it’s up north about 90 miles from Da Nang. I 2 �was ordered with the American Division. I was attached to the 380th Artillery, which was with to the 26th Infantry. Our battalion headquarters was in Chu Lai. Which everything up there was on the coast. We did not have any guns in Chu Lai all we had was battalion Headquarters with radios and relies because the guns were actually in other fire bases 15 to 20 miles apart. PM: So you were doing fire controlee at an off sight and the guns were somewhere else? GM: Yes, I start well. I spent seven or eight months in the field on a fire base where we actually had the guns. People think, you were commonly known as a cannon cocker, which I wasn’t. I never fired a gun at all. I did was compute firing missions on a. We had a surveyed battery and we were shooting into a map coordinates. All we did were compute what they call and deflect, which was the raising of the gun how high and the charge to get it to the target. After about seven months I was moved I went back to battalion. Battalion headquarters was strictly in charge of the whole artillery. All we did at battalion was compute fire missions for all three batteries. We had three batteries bravo charley…and alpha, bravo and charley that was scattered out in probably about a 70 radius. And I never saw a gun again all we did was…and at battalion we had contact with all three batteries and we would compute fire missions for all three batteries. Because any time a battery would compute a fire mission we had to compute the fire mission at battalion and our data had to meet within one point of each other and then we could fire guns. If our data did not coordinate we could not fire. We would have to hold off until we could find out what the problem was. PM: How frequently would you be firing these weapons? Was it all day every day or was it a lot of sitting around? GM: We in what you call the FDC or fire directional controlee center. Where we worked out of… we were assigned there twelve hours a day you either worked there from two in the morning or two in the afternoon and every thirty days you would rotate from night shift to day shift. What you did was…generally during the day we only fired as necessary for fire missions. A lot of times we would have fire missions from forward observers and air observers because we were general support for the whole American Division. We would shoot pretty frequently during the day however every night we had what they called H and I, which was harassment and interdiction. And we probably had 300 targets computed by the general staff that these was were the enemy was we might have to fire two rounds at nine o’clock on a location and two rounds at 12 on the same location and most of the time we’d fire 300 to 400 rounds a night on harassment and interdiction. The rest of the time we had air observers flying plans and when they saw a target we would answer to that and of course any ground troops that were…we had to be careful we because our guns were so big that you couldn’t…anything within 50 meters of where the shell landed was in the kill zone so you had to be absolutely careful that there were no friendly’s where you were 3 �shooting. And a lot of times what we did with Special Forces what they called contact fire missions where they were actually being shot at and taking casualties and we would walk the artillery in with a forward observer and just actually walk it in on the ground until we got it correct and then we would shoot everything we’d got to get them out of there when they were in that bad situation. We were only heavy artillery…eight inch and 175 an eight inch would shoot 15 miles and throws a 200 pound shell 15 miles, a 175 would shoot 26 miles. Eight inch was totally accurate 175’s was not very accurate we never shoot 175’s in support of ground troops. Because they just they weren’t that accurate now eight inch we would shoot because the American that is was in was an old division that was reactivated…that was used in World War Two and then deactivated and was reactivated for Vietnam. We had 25,000 men and they included three infantry battalions, brigades and then aw two Special Forces groups pulse all the support that goes with it. Our official designation was direct support for Special Forces and general support of the American Division. We stayed pretty busy the whole time…and I do not know what else to say. PM: What are some of the most memorable experiences you have while just being in country? It does not necessarily have to be related to your mission. GM: The camaraderie that I developed with the members of our company. It was not always… in the field was different then…I mean being on a forward base camp was pure military and was 24-7 with guarding and all the rest. Back at battalion head quarters where I spent my last few months was completely different. It was on top of a hill…we had US shows come in every now and then… every now and then we could go down to the beach. We could go to the beach sometimes Bob Hope when he came in for Christmas and…which was totally secret that we wound up being there. We played flag football a tournament in fact we won so it was…I mean it was not always as bad as you think it was…you never felt safe or secure you always had to worry about what was coming around the corner. PM: How did you and other guys you know deal with that feeling that insecurity? GM: It was just something that you learned to live with some guys took it better than others we had some that actually couldn’t take it and they were rotated out. Some guys resorted to drugs and if we found that out then we got rid of them because we could not depend on them if they were pulling guard duty we knew they were doing drugs we would find a way to get rid of them. It was something that you lived with every day if you thought about it would drive you crazy so you didn’t you try not to think about it you just went and did your job and hoped you would make it till you get home. PM: When you transferred where you did you go for the last few months… what was it called? GM: Battalion Headquarters. 4 �PM: What was the difference in your duty? GM: First of all we did not have the gun crews. You weren’t working hand on hand with guys who were actually shooting guns and looking after each other. Battalion was less stressful you had hot meals all the time things you did not have in the field. And we had more responsibility because we were dealing with all three batteries when in the field you are only dealing with one battery, which was a lot easier. Battalion was a lot more stressful and plus you had so many officers coming in and out it wasn’t as easy as being in the field we had to compute fire missions for all three batteries instead of it was a lot more work and a lot more stressful aw…I would much rather be in the field. Even though the field was more dangerous the camaraderie between the fellows in the field was a lot different. PM: How did you end up being transferred was it by choice? GM: I was running out of time in Vietnam and they rotated guys out and they had an opening for a section chief at battalion. And I got sent to take it. They had two sections at battalion so they had to have two section chiefs, who were enlisted men, and I was a sergeant so I took one of those positions. And then we a…we answered to a captain who answered to a major so…you had…in the field there was just a lieutenant in battalion you never had less than a captain or a major to be responsible to. PM: So it was a lot more up tight? GM: Yes, it was a lot more like civilian. 5 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f1d2db0e3e286db1b5a34b20655666f4.mp3 785c8ffd47bf1af13dd9ecad43155a6d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Murphy, George Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Murphy, Patrick Interview Date 10/16/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20:46 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Johnston County, Army, Fort Dix, Fort Sill, artillery, Fort Lewis, Vietnam, Cam Ranh Bay , 380th Artillery, 26th Infantry Division, Bob Hope Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Murphy, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Murphy, George Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource George Murphy, interviewed by Patrick Murphy, served in the United States Army and was stationed in Vietnam. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murphy, George Murphy, Patrick Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English American Division Cam Ranh Bay Chu Lai draft FDC George Murphy US Army Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8d1a699827a7096c739e9a5ad18a25a9.pdf 8d03fa2f0cd76cef7d03a54d2627a08a PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Paul Maney Boone, North Carolina 12 October 2011 MO: Marshall Ospina PM: Paul Maney MO: Today is October 12, 2011 and we are in Boone NC, In the History Department on campus of Appalachian State University. I am interviewing professor Paul Maney; I am Marshall Ospina a student here at Appalachian State University. We will begin the oral history now. MO: Where were you born and raised? PM: Marshall I was born in England…my father was a…member of the Air Force my mother was an English citizen. I was born in England lived there for five years and when we came to the states I lived in different times in Northern New England and in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and then in Alaska for four years. Where I supposedly graduated high school. MO: When is your Birthday? PM: October 7th, 1953. MO: When and why did you choose to join the military? PM: Well, I…like I said I graduated in 1971 in Alaska and I did not like it up there I did not care for my family so I moved I basically left home if you want to call it that I hitched hiked out of Alaska down the Alkane Highway and…spent the next three or four months hitchhiking around the country it was something I wanted to do at the time and by October of that year when I turned 18 I was at my grandparents in Pennsylvania and I decided the only option that I really had to go to college was to join the Army so I basically enlisted to get the G.I Bill and that’s what I did in late 1971 four years ago MO: Tell me about your basic training experience. PM: Well, that was again more like the probably the most difficult time I’d say in my life, this was during the Vietnam War going on of course and even though they were drawing troops down…there was that still was back draw, I went in Fort Dix New Jersey at the age of 18 probably totally unprepared for the Basic Training experience…after three months I’d have to say that was probably the worst three months I’ve ever saw of my life, and it was not like the movies they show you where everybody you know pulls together and gets…you know you help one another out it was a very divisive time I saw five people killed in basic training I…I came upon a Jo…a soldier who had sliced his testicles off in the… latrine …I was …on CQ and I found him and I had to break up the whole…I saw people… abused and bullied under the orders of drill sergeants who were psychotic types who were from Vietnam…you know who had gone 1 �to Vietnam and probably got a chance to...indulge all their fantasies about hurting and killing people and…they would...in fact during the time I was in we had people who were drafted of course I was…volunteer but their were people there who did not want to be there and the thing to do of course of course the drill sergeants tried to sort of… point them out to everybody and…literally have them...use the…the troops themselves to police these people to beat them up and intimidate them we had a guy in our… basic training company who get up every morning and defecate in his bed and roll around in it just to try to get out and… he was pointed out to the drill sergeants and later... a bunch of people gave him what they call a blanket party where they throw a…a blanket over your head and beat you up with bunk adapters… this guy has or had his arms broken. The guy who I saw who kill himself was just a heavy set individual who could not do the physical training he was he was bullied and abused there were some awful incidents… that I was telling you about in Fort Dix New Jersey in the winter of 1971 the barracks that were not heated…and situation was pretty… I would say...dictated to our drill sergeant… not to go into that much further that I cant tell you that the follow up on that is…that…after I got out of basic training and I went to my AIT unit some of the people that I was in basic with we ended up in Fort Carson, Colorado and six months later they actually had people from the Judge Advocate Generals (JAG) office come out and take depositions from us about our basic training experience with Drill Sargent Guion. He had run over he run his company at that time over somebody they were going down range road from weapons practice who had a heart attack and...killed him and so after that they had an investigation on what was going on in the various cycles that he went…that he sort of conducted as a drill sergeant… when they came out in… July of 70, 72 to take depositions I sat there with a guy from the JAG for like two hours telling him stories about basic training and what happened so that was probably the most terrific time I have ever seen...you know getting out of that with my sanity intact was you know really maybe an accomplishment… that was the worse I saw of the Army after that it got better but still it was not my favorite time…so how’s that for an answer, ha-ha. MO: What motivated you throughout that very dark period of time? PM: Well, I thought the day after I enlisted I made a mistake…I mean I sat there said oh my God I couldn’t believe I done it you know? I didn’t know it was going be like you have this sort of…vision that you see from these World War II movies where everybody gets in there its all you know...and maybe the drill sergeant’s tough but he’s really…underneath it very fair and everybody bans together that was really not the way it was there was a lot of…I could say during that time I saw…I was really naïve I never even seen anybody drunk in my life until the first night I was in the Army. I end up putting a guy in a wall locker because I refused to have a beer and I still never drank anything mostly because the first people I ever saw drunk acted so stupid I said I would never ever want to do that and so…you know I think that’s another thing the army tries to do of course is to…intimidate a little bit so that you become ultimately…that you are not an individual that you just basically are stripped down to the basics and then you can, they kind of build you 2 �back up but… that in itself was you know a period where you know…I was…having to assert my individuality and I learned a lot about what was going on around me and I guess…about group dynamics and everything, so was there a specific question that I didn’t answer? MO: No you answered it. PM: oh, ok. I was just curious. MO: So was there any hazing in AIT? I mean just… PM: Oh well there was, not like not like in basic I mean in AIT I went down to Fort Jackson, South Carolina I was trained infantry and that was…that was a world of improvement for me I hated my drill sergeant he must have hated me too because ultimately…he…I think that I and a few other people were singled out you know maybe on the basis of what they call GT scores if you have something like… that that’s relatively high maybe the drill sergeants will think that you’re some kind of…you know…egg head or whatever so even though…I always got 500’s on my you know PT and all that. He didn’t like me he thought for some reason cause I couldn’t sleep, I could not sleep and all the time I was there my eyes were literally red as get out so he must have thought I was some kind of drug addict or whatever but this guys eyes were always red too because he was an alcoholic so, so anyways I did not like that he didn’t even promote me to…E2 until I got out of basic when I went to…AIT I was the honor grad I got E4 out of it. So but just because I got… the drill sergeant was without a doubt the most evil person I have ever met. MO: So what…when…were where was your first duty station? PM: Well, I got right after basic and AIT I ended up in fact I was going to Fort Campbell, Kentucky …I was going to go airborne and we had… MO: At Ft. Campbell Kentucky? PM: Yes, Fort Campbell, Kentucky with the 82nd Airborne. MO: I thought it was only in Fort Benning. PM: No, that’s in Georgia, this was back in 1971, 72. So we ended up having a little…misadventure I guess 32 people that evening were sort of injured after…we hit a wind shier…I had a separated left shoulder out of all that it really wasn’t damaging to my in any way I still cant look over my left shoulder I have never parallel parked in my life we ended up having…enough medical attention I was in the hospital for only 3 days but I say that in fact that saved my life because I didn’t get assigned to Vietnam. I don’t know if I was suppose to go to Vietnam anyways some people did at that time even though they said, we weren’t, well I finally got my papers out of all that I ended up in Fort Carson, Colorado with the 4th Infantry Division it’s a mechanized infantry division. 3 �MO: How did you stay in touch with your family? Or did you… PM: I haven’t been in touch with my so called family since then so its been 40 years I had left… I left you know I have two brothers and two sisters their all in Alaska I guess. I’m not in touch with them. I left them totally I left at 17, so I didn’t bother. MO: What was the food like? PM: HA! THE FOOD! I…I’m pretty picky so as far as food goes I’m not...you know that was not my…you know they shove a lot of carbohydrates at you and they make it you know so that…that may be one of those things you look forward too but I certainly didn’t I…you know…many a times I would be at the end of the… chow line and not have anything in my plate so it was you know… I can’t say that the food was…you know…I’m a real picky eater so, ha-ha. MO: How were the MRE’s over there? PM: They…They didn’t call them that at the time they might have had LRRP’s which are Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols, just sea rations, we didn’t, they didn’t have anything called MRE’s when I was in the Army. So basically it was you know you had those going down range and typically I would always get a can of spaghetti or something you know and have to trade that off to have some eggs and some semi kind of looking meat or whatever but it wasn’t exactly actually it was just as bad it was you know no different than eating in the chow line, well I got to Colorado my friend and I one of my best friends, in fact my best, my best friend during the time we had lunch or whatever we go out and get, I never saw tacos or burritos before at the time Mexican food hadn’t really made it throughout most of the US during that time out west I was able to spend my time eating tacos and burritos, ha-ha. MO: Did you have plenty of supplies I mean when you were at you first unit? PM: Oh yeah there was no problem there again this is you know a time when they were drawing down the Army because of people coming back from Vietnam I saw a lot of people who had been there and came back and were you know affected by it and I was affected by the people around me but, I never luckily enough had to be put in a situation like these guys did… and I think ultimately at the time seeing these people the way they responded and the way I felt like…good Lord, their lives are already you know affected they’ll never change I mean I wonder 40 years now 39 years after that time when I got to my duty station in 1972 how many of these people are really, how many went off the deep end, how many were able to save, how many went through counseling how many became alcoholics, how many became drug addicts how many end up killing themselves. I mean you could see it the affect you know people who spent time in Vietnam what had it done to them. MO: Wow, did you feel any pressure or stress throughout your army career? PM: Well, yeah I mean it did especially early on but as I went on in my time in the army I was trained infantry but after…I got to my…after I got to my duty station… one day saved my life or 4 �at least somebody came down from the orderlies room looking to see if anybody in the company could type and I raised my hand and said yes I could! So I was brought up to the… orderly room and from that point on I became training NCO (non-commissioned officer) I was given… about 6…6 months I was just training you know assistant then after our, my…my training sergeant retired they gave me they made me a what they called an AJ, “Acting Jack” I have, I was spec 4 but I was given Sargent stripes with only three months left I only had been in the army 16-17 months at that time with three moths left to go actually…a little bit more than 8 months to go they actually promoted me to E-5 as a training NCO but my job was administrative more than I wasn’t leading men into the field or anything as Sargent and even though I was infantry trained I was basically… you know…in that field so that was when it got a lot easier when once I got up there it became a breeze I had no problems after that its not easy for me to take orders but ultimately…when I was working with people who were at least… I wasn’t dealing down with some psychotic drill sergeant or somebody down there… MO: People were competent. PM: Yeah so and I didn’t…you know in a line company I mean again I just did not…just a little too different to get along really well with everybody so it was one of those things…I was in...I was in my time of the army I had 12 or 13 different fights I got stabbed three times I hit a guy through a window and I almost severed my artery here I got three knife wounds here in my chest from a guy that had a lot of, a lot of different incidents, that wasn’t the easiest thing for me. MO: Did you start these incidents? PM: I would never said, no. I thought never, I would never but I wasn’t going to back down from anything either and that’s the thing… MO: Of course. PM: Of course you cant you know you cannot do that for a second so ultimately I never felt like I got the worse of anything either even the guy who stabbed me I broke his nose and was pounding his head on the pavement when they pulled me off him so he got me three times in the chest luckily he only had a three inch blade so I had you know I got holes right there just to prove that their there you cant kind of… you can see there… there… and there the only reason he couldn’t kill me is cause he kept hitting my breastbone instead of my heart which he was going for that’s a lovely feeling hearing a knife hit your breastbone. Ha-ha. MO: How did people entertain themselves? PM: Drugs, alcohol...the…the Army it seemed at that time it actually encouraged people to get drunk because they kept having these company beer parties and everything you know so they would do that it was again during the time of the end of the Vietnam war a lot of the people who were hooked on all sorts of things…I saw people shooting up in the barracks they were doing all you know pills methamphetamines…downers uppers everything so that’s...they…they on the post itself they had you know mess halls open late at night they had I guess different functions and everything you know it was…I guess it was for me it was a little different of course I was 5 �probably...the only…I had my locker full of books ha-ha so…I didn’t...I didn’t partake I still never played a card game in my life a lot of people seemed to play cards a lot you know some people would either lose a fortune or make a fortune but you know I would play chess maybe but there were always a few people who I could get along with you know but that’s as far as entrainment goes that was most of what I saw going on. MO: Where did you travel while in the service? PM: Well, not really I was just mostly in Colorado I was only in for 21 months so by the time I got to my duty station since I didn’t have any family anywhere I didn’t really take any leave and when I got out of the army I was able to sale my leave back… because I didn’t use it so I actually got two months of you know pay when I got out so I didn’t really as far as traveling I was again I spent a lot time in Colorado but that’s I got a chance to see that...so…I didn’t really go anywhere at that time so. MO: Do you recall any particularly humorous…or… PM: Humorous? MO: Or unusual event? PM: well everything was…everything was unusual, I don’t know about humorous as far as the army goes because it wasn’t too humorous it was deadly, deadly serious then it got to the point where I was just waiting out my time after I realized that I wasn’t going to kill anybody or that…ultimately hopefully wasn’t going to kill me I was just wasn’t going to go crazy having people over, I didn’t like the idea waking up every morning knowing that, I have no control over my life that ultimately I was owned lock stock and barrel, but…it seemed funny cause there is this Oscar wild you know writer, he said in one of his little stories that everyday felt like a year a years whose days was long that was my time in the army everyday felt like a year and it was a long year I spent 21 months in, which comes to about 700 days but it felt like that was the longest 21 months of my life and I was glad to get out I mean I processed an early out. I got out with an honorable discharge I got an Army ARCOM an army you know Commendation Medal, it wasn’t I could not have re-upped they wanted me to reenlist, when they made me an E5, it was something they thought alright we will give you some rank and authority but there was no way in the world I was ever going to reenlist, I got out three months before my 20 birthday so I was in and out before I was even twenty. So for humorous stories, I was thinking of humorous stories and I really you know. I could tell you no I shouldn’t maybe I could tell you about getting out of the army, I had already processed my early out because I was you know I got three month drop to get out for school cause they were doing that at the time so as the training NCO my job was to put out a …a weekly training bulletin where you know everybody in the company knew what was going on it would be posted you would have daily activities Monday thru Friday and it was always posted in the company area you had times and if you were like lets say going to have a film on VD or if 6 �you arranged a rifle range to you know for you know weapons training or qualification if you done this you would post it all. Well, my last week in the army just a as a joke I had… made two copies of it one was the real training schedule the other was a joke I had to send it up first of all to my company commander then It went up to battalion then to brigade and then to the post to be authorized it was just preferment just a matter of course but I made two separate ones and on the first one I just did the regular week for the company the second was a joke it was supposedly going to be seen by my company commander and he was going to laugh and then you know give it back to me and say but the last one I had instead of my training schedule it has I put down on it in big letters “MANEY ETS,” which means you get… that’s when you get out and terminated service and underneath it I put down FTA and if you don’t know what FTA means you kind of have to go back to the mid seventies it had meant something that was not complimentary. THE ARMY was the second and third letters of that F the F you could imagine and I sent that up and I thought my company commander would see it and reject it and send it back and said nice joke. Well nobody had looked at it and they sent it up first of all from company to battalion nobody looked at it they signed it the company, the… the COL in charge of battalion signed it he sent it up to the guy in charge of Brigade and it eventually ended up in the post headquarters and my 1SG three r four days later got a call from the post 1SG 4th Infantry Division asking about this Maney guy and it was going to be it was like they were going to the stop my early out because of this little thing that was not suppose to go anywhere if it hadn’t been for my 1SG he basically told me the story he said look you know what did you do and I told him this was a joke and he said Maney you better hide out for the next week I’ll save your buns if you don’t. I don’t want you around the company area you better head over to the PX you better head over to the gym you better be somewhere away from here because these people are coming out here looking for you so my 1SG really sort of saved me and when I was processing to get out through all the little debriefings to you when you get out I kept thinking up to the last minute they were going to get me somehow but actually I got out of there ok so I have a picture in fact my last day getting out my company had gone to Ft. Lewis Washington and there was only a skeleton crew left behind there so nobody really with any power so my last day I took all my gear and my…duffle bag and I got a picture sort of I took it out in front of the company orderly room and took some lighter fluid and squirted it on and threw a match on it and set the whole thing on fire so I got a picture of that. How is that for a funny story? MO: What did you think of the officers or higher NCO’s above you? PM: As far as the officers went you know during that time…the officers were all educated college educated a lot of them even though they were officers were opposed to the Vietnam war they were you know, some I would actually have…had deep conversations with I ended up playing chess with a lot of the officers I seem t have more in common with them even though they were a lot older than me I was only again 18 or so but…some of them were conflicted about you know they had joined the army to kind of like you know… they weren’t all the gun ho kind of career officers you see today and many of them probably were just college educated and you know just being in a position so…I had no problems with the officers at all some of the drill 7 �sergeants in particular and especially people who had been career soldiers who were above like E6 or E7 who were you know terminal alcoholics and…and just people who you know didn’t have much imagination but were just there for a long time and got rank I had trouble with a lot of those people. MO: Do you recall…the day your service ended? PM: Oh yeah, yes December 7th 1973 its Buddy Holly’s Birthday. I got out and basically stayed in Colorado I didn’t really have anything going. MO: That was in Fort Carson? PM: Fort Carson I stayed there and I started school at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs right there that fall. MO: So the weeks, and days after you went right into… PM: I just went right into school there from that you know. MO: So I'm guessing your education was supported by the G.I Bill? PM: That’s how I got it in fact I went to a lot of different schools I didn’t have you know, it took me a long time because I have to say after being in the Army it took me a long time to kind of re adjust but it did leave an affect on me it was not you know something that it just kind of…a lot of things affected me in a lot of ways so I…had…by the time I used the GI Bill up I had you know over 200 hours I had gone to 6 different schools at that stage in the game and finally got my degree in English but it wasn’t I was not…I…I didn’t have a lot of direction and the army really didn’t give me any direction really I was in there for two years. I didn’t learn anything not a single thing other than how tot kill people you know and that was it though I didn’t have any skills but I got out of there in 21months and you know I used the GI Bill and eventually it started me off in the right direction I didn’t use it as well as I could have I was not too, you know pride about using it effectively you know so I made I sort of blew that opportunity even though I used it I those days getting 370 dollars a month from the GI Bill I got that for 48 months that was almost enough to live on you know so. MO: Make any close friendships? PM: My very best friend I met my very best friend in the Army we were…together in Colorado I met him 39 years ago…were best friends today. MO: Did you join any veteran’s organizations? PM: No I didn’t I feel like a lot of the veterans organizations are a little too right wing for me for the most part that I see I see, especially the VA, I mean not the VA but the American Legion which is supposedly a veterans, they all are a little reactionary you know of course those who 8 �were in the second world war might have a reason to be but as they die out I find that you know probably not too many people in my generation are into joining anyway like all those you know service organizations like the knights of Columbus and all that they probably appear to an older group but I often thought though that I should maybe. See the various veterans agencies you know around here Wilkesboro the… to see if I could actually try to see maybe I could become a veterans advocate for issues that I think affect veterans you know ultimately everybody seems to be whenever there’s a war but when these people come back that’s where the problem is of course you know as far as you know getting them adequate medical benefits and you know see what happened to them people get affected you know and whether its psychologically and people are usually afraid to talk about that or physically, they all we pay good lip service to veterans all of this but ultimately when they come back it’s a joke I think so that’s something I would like to maybe involve myself in a bit further. MO: How long did it take you to jump-start that career? How did you get to be a History Professor here at Appalachian State? PM: It took me a long long time. Like I said in fact after I got out of the Army after I started school I you know took semesters off I hitchhiked around the country again I spent most the rest of the seventies hitchhiking around I came to Boone in the late seventies…I never been south of the Mason-Dixon Line but I just hitchhiked, I had been writing to a girl who lived in Boone for a year I never met her just sort of was a roommate of mine it was his finance it was her roommate we talked on the phone one night so I decided to hitchhike out here and visit. I fell in love with the area and moved back and eventually got my degree in history and my masters degree I did not get my…undergraduate degree, I had an undergraduate degree in English but didn’t get my degree in history until I was 40 I didn’t get my masters till I was 45 which I why I didn’t go on for a doctors it was too late and I thought so…it was, it took me a long time I did not have that sense of direction you know I was just sort of being buffered around by the breeze I guess you could say. MO: Did you military experience influence you thinking about war or about the military in general? PM: Oh yes well I had already had strong thoughts about it I mean it wasn’t like I was a vet, you know gun ho for the Vietnam war before hand I wouldn’t have probably enlisted if they hadn’t told me that they were already weren’t sending people over that was the thing of course recruiters lie to you unless you get a sheet of paper saying something I say don’t, to students today don’t sign up unless you get something in writing. But I am as a historian you know I knew a little about Vietnam before most people did because surprisingly my father was in Vietnam in 1962 before two years before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution he was over there in the air force as a ostensibly as a meteorologist but ultimately as a military advisor so I was 9 years old ten years old when he came back I was interesting I knew a little about Vietnamese history and culture before I was even 12 years old and…after being in that war sort of realizing what and all the consequences the information that came out about it 9 �the secrets bombing of Cambodia by Nixon and Kissinger the way the war was conducted the way we got involved made me look back I did not want to listen to you know. I wanted to know for myself the truth of it all and I think having learned that in fact in the spring I would be teaching the history of Vietnam class at Caldwell community college at Caldwell and so I am going to try to put my knowledge and my you know perspective at least to work there obviously there’s lots of ways to look at it but I think that was the defining moment for my generation and probably American history because all the cultural wars that are being still fought today I think in this country are the results of what took place during the Vietnam War of response whether its either positive or negative. I think you can still draw those, draw those battle lines and see that you know its either on one side where you don’t you know…you think that maybe for instance that the reasons we go to war are wrong that the motivation the…the response and ultimately whether or not you should be drafted to fight what you consider an unjust war why do we go to war you know those very things of course you have, what desensitized me and probably everybody who came of age at that time. MO: What do you feel, how do you feel about soldiers nowadays? PM: Well I…I…excuse me I'm sorry Marshall I didn’t meant to talk over you. MO: No continue. PM: Well, it seems to me that in the time I have been teaching that the students that I have that are veterans are a lot more right wing than the ones that I…the people I was in the army with and the people who study you know the veterans who are my age…I don’t know why that I think probably the draft meant that you get a broader representation of society in the military whereas of course they it seems that people do join up at least are the ones who are highly motivated to begin with perhaps and may have a certain perspective about the military to begin with whether its you look at it ok…as oppose to being able to stand back or feel like you know they didn’t want to be in the military in the first place. I do think…and I have some veterans in Caldwell community college where I just started you know I picked up some classes the other night and I have a few veterans and there just like the other ones pretty outspoken about what they think the way this country is and they…I would just say that today’s student seems to be a little more...right wing in nature than the ones I came up with. MO: If you could do it all again, would you have hitchhiked down from Alaska? PM: Yes, I…I have to say even though the army as I look back on it I didn’t want o learn those lessons I'm not even sure what lessons I did learn if I learned any I would probably say for a long part of my life I thought that was probably one of the most biggest mistakes I’ve done you cant really go back and second guess in fact…I was 50 years old before I fell in love and I told my wife and I’ve told her this since the 8 years we’ve been together I said darling if I had to go 10 �through everything I had to go through that I’ve done already if that is what it would have took to get to you then I would gladly go back and do it all over again so in that sense in my life was going to take me in places you know I use to think it was absolutely why did I go through this but then I talk to people you know then find my experience was pretty unique that I had things happen to me that nobody else did that I survived them ultimately you know I feel like I came out of it I wouldn’t go back. I wouldn’t want to go through it again but I would not trade it for what it gave me to give me this sort of unique sensibility of things so in that, in that sense I don’t regret it there’s some things I wish I hadn’t seen but…you know again it...it made me just my reaction to it you know not everybody spent eight or nine years hitchhiking around the country either so you know that was a consequence the things I learned I mean yeah I met my best friend out of it that’s good enough. MO: And I should have asked you this before but since your father was in the Air Force did that I guess push you or did you ever want to? PM: No it didn’t...at all it didn’t affect me one little bit. MO: He didn’t influence you at all? PM: He was in the air force even though I wouldn’t ever get the sense that he was there because the Air Force was a little different of course he didn’t run, he wasn’t a military type really who made people, I had friends who’s fathers would make them you know stand at inspections but that wasn’t the way it was my father sold also real estate and stuff so he had I saw him just as much with a suit on as I did with a you know uniform so that didn’t affect me and I was already estranged from him anyways so it wasn’t like I was trying to prove anything to anybody you know so. MO: Is there anything you would like to add or anything you would like to share? PM: Well, you know again I’d say that…for anybody who wants to go to the military I guess the thing is if you know what you want to do with it then if you can make…if you can…if you have your own agenda then you can probably us the military to your…you know…benefit by learning enough and getting the GI Bill and you know probably for people who need a little direction might need you know some time to think about it… I still think that maybe you know I'm not again, not for the draft in the military but I am in favor, some kind of form for some national service for 18 or 19 year olds to I’ve them some direction to give them a sense of this country you know so its not just the military that actually is you know should have all the money thrown to it. I'm really against that in a way I as a sergeant when I got out of the army I was only making 440 dollars a month which was...maybe live able then but I see the weight scales now that we have an army that has to almost make pay comparable to civilian occupations even though a lot of the soldiers are on food stamps so that’s a problem as well but I just wonder if we did have national service where you could go into he military is one option you could maybe go into the equivalent of the civilian conservation corps like they had back in the 30’s where you would 11 �work on you know just go out there and plant trees or be in nature just do something to be to give service to this country its almost like a Robert Heimland idea military or some kind of service to almost a citizen. MO: So you think it should be I guess obligated? PM: I think that you know it seems almost reactionary you know and I'm not that way at all but I think to act first of all to give a sense of citizenship and maybe a sense of…commitment in a way you know for maybe generations might have lost that it does. I agonize about these feelings I have about something like that but I think ultimately it would be advantageous for people to get to know the country you know for people to involve themselves in something for students for kids who are kids 18 or 19 a that age maybe between your 18th and 21st or 23rd you know year you have to put in at least one year of doing you know maybe two years of this or one year of that but actually getting out from where you live and going out and giving something back. That would give a sense of citizenship that actually in a way you know would allow you to maybe to…to feel you know to get a real sense of what this country is so that’s one way of doing it. MO: All right PM: How does that sound Marshall? MO: Sounds great. PM: Ha-ha. MO: Well. PM: Anything else? MO: No. Anything else from you? PM: Where’s my free pizza? MO: I’ll get it to you next year. PM: Yes. MO: I actually might start taking that class at Caldwell that sounds really interesting. PM: Well its about time you know well for one thing our department chair person here for a long time had his had his doctoral you know experience in Vietnam so it wasn’t like I was going to be able to teach a class here but…they evidently some guy was teaching up in Caldwell has sort of had a break down so I came in just last week to take over his classes and they were so than thankful they offered me a Vietnam history class in the spring so you know take that. And I'm going to try again I’m…the way I look at it… was just a big mistake just a huge mistake and we should’ve never been there in the first place and…when we were there our policies were entirely 12 �wrong and…if you’re interested in all that there’s a really good book written by a guy name Neil Shield it got a Pulitzer Prize its called Jean Paul Van and the American Experience in Vietnam. It talks about a colonel who was there before Gulf of Tonkin and was there watching the South Vietnamese Army be constructed and what we were doing supplying and that’s when we only had 10 or 11,000 advisors over there nearly the time my father was and he kept saying were making a dreadful mistake this is not going to work we are really this government is not supported by its people and that’s the bottom line. There we were supporting a government that was not supported by its people. You know, as many weapons as they needed we didn’t care enough about you know the…democracy whatever you want to call it basically it was a repressive regime same thing that happened in South Korea in the 1950’s you know it was same thing ultimately if you look at the history of Vietnam. In 1956, when the Geneva Peace Accords were signed we were signatory to that but we were looking for a free election in 1958 but when that election was going to be held American diplomats realized that Ho Chi Min the communist would’ve won in a free election in a nut shell he would’ve dominated Diam who was our choice who was a French educated playboy who didn’t even fight the Japanese or the French during the Second World War during the French War and so he spoke English and was Catholic so he was our boy in Vietnam we propped him up for ten years and he didn’t do anything for us ultimately drugged us in I think it was one of the biggest mistakes in American history getting involved just as a big mistake as attacking Iraq. MO: Well, that’s another interview I guess. PM: Yes, I know. MO: Well, this concludes our oral history and I thank you so much. PM: Thank you Marshall. 13 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/fc4915af983ab57b148b10d95f193171.mp3 729fba484d030adf3753ff85303ce739 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Maney, Paul Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Ospina, Marshall Interview Date 10/12/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:06 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Tag Alaska, Fort Dix, Fort Carson, Judge Advocate Generals, hazing, suicide, abuse, Fort Jackson, Fort Benning, 82nd Airborne, infantry, 4th Infantry Division, practical joke, Colorado State, GI Bill, Wilkesboro, Caldwell Community College, Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Professor Paul Maney, 12 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Maney, Paul Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Marshall Ospina interviews Paul Maney who served during the Vietnam War. He describes his time in Basic Training as very dark and disturbing. He was trained in Fort Dix, but never deployed, and spent most of his time doing administrative work in Colorado. He did not like serving in the military and got out as soon as he could. He used the GI Bill to go to school and eventually became a professor of military history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maney, Paul Ospina, Marshall Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 13 pages Language A language of the resource English ARCOM Colorado Springs Fort Carson Fort Dix GI Bill infantry Paul Maney Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/6b5794ae774cfffd73f39a3e5012c8a7.pdf fd3751f7ea8a04945722ef1a875dd11c PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Lieutenant Colonel Haimes “Andy” Kilgore Boone, North Carolina 20 August 2010 JB: Judkin Browning HK: Lt. Col. Haimes Kilgore JB: It is August 20, 2010. We are in Boone, North Carolina on the campus of Appalachian State University. I am interviewing Lieutenant Colonel Haines of Appalachian State University. I am Dr. Judkin Browning of the History Department at Appalachian State University, and we will begin the oral history now. HK: Where were you born and raised? HK: I was born and raised in Philadelphia, Mississippi, a small, little town in the central part of Mississippi, close to Meridian. JB: When were...I should have asked you your birthday. HK: My birthday is 4-5-67. April 5, 1967. JB: When and why did you choose to join the military? HK: I joined the military when I was 17. I enlisted in the Mississippi Army National Guard when I was still in high school. I went to basic training the summer between high school and college. And I joined because it was something I’d always wanted to do. I knew I was going to be in the army, and… college was nothing more than a means to an end. It would get me a piece of paper that I needed to be a commissioned officer. That’s all it was. JB: So you enlisted before you went to college? HK: Yes. I was enlisted in the Guard and then when I was in ROTC in college, I was what we call a simultaneous member program member, which we still have in ROTC. That’s where you’re enlisted in the Guard or Reserve, but you’re also in ROTC, so it allows you to serve while you’re in college. JB: Now, was there a family history of military service that inspired you or were you one of the first in your family to join the military? HK: No, there was a family history. It’s not a glorious history or anything; it’s just that most of the males in my family were in the military. My father retired as an E-8 out of the Mississippi National Guard. He had been active duty in the Air Force. His brother, my uncle, was a Marine in Vietnam and then had come out of Vietnam and gotten in the Air National Guard and he 1 �retired, I think, as an E-8 out of the Air National Guard. Yeah, there was a little bit of a history and I mean, it goes back to pre-Civil War, but no general officers or anything like that in the past. Mostly enlisted. JB: Did your family relate their experiences? Particularly your uncle in Vietnam? Did you grow up hearing of those experiences? HK: A few, not very much, and virtually none of the combat experience. That’s something that’s not really talked about that much. JB: Now, tell me about your basic training experiences. Anything memorable from that time in your life? HK: When I went to basic training was summer of 1985. I’d just graduated from high school and I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey. Because I was in the Guard, I went with what was called a “buddy platoon,” 62 members of the Mississippi National Guard. And so I knew, I think there were nine total people from my high school in that basic training class, so my basic training experience is not typical. My ranger buddy, the guy that lived on the top bunk while I lived on the bottom bunk, was a guy I’d known for probably 15…15 or 16 years out of the 18 years of my life at that point. So it was not where I went off in the middle of strangers. I had a blast in basic training (Browning chuckles). It was…it was fun. It was challenging, but it was only as challenging as you were willing to challenge yourself. It could have been a lot easier if you just wanted to skate by. JB: Have you ever been deployed into a combat situation? HK: Yes. I’ve been deployed twice into combat. The first time was when I was a young 2nd Lieutenant on active duty. I was with the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Squadron, Ghost Troop, and I was a tank platoon leader. We deployed to Desert Shield, which evolved into Desert Storm. The second time was more recently in 2004. I deployed at the battalion XO [executive officer] for 3/8 Cavalry, which is a tank battalion in 3rd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division. We deployed to the Green Zone in Baghdad with the rest of the division. Most of the division was kind of headquartered at BIAP, Baghdad International Airport, so we were the brigade that split the Green Zone. JB: So for your first combat experience…when did you learn that you would be deployed during Desert Shield? How did that process work to get your over there? HK: Well, it was an ongoing situation, when I actually PCS’ed to Europe. When I got there in August… JB: Of 1990? HK: Of 1990. And I went to First I.D. Forward, which was down in Stuttgart. There was one brigade, which was forward in Germany. The rest of the division was back at Fort Riley. 2 �And…as soon as I got there it was announced that they were going to be drawing down. So I was with, basically, a non-deployable unit…the first day that I met my battalion commander, me and two other second lieutenants who had just got there, we went up to him and introduced ourselves as his new lieutenants and told him that as soon as we got out of Grafenwoehr, where we were at a gunnery, we were going to go look for a new job. Basically, thanks for letting us come to your battalion, sir, but you all are not doing anything fun and sexy, so we’re going to go find a job. And we all went to 2nd ACR and found jobs. The thinking was: something’s fixing to happen…in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, and if anybody goes out of Europe, it’s going to be 2nd ACR or 11th ACR, so, you know, we’re tankers, armor guys, so that’s where we want to be. And it just so happened that 2nd ACR did get deployment orders…but my battalion commander was not…pleased with us. He pretty much cussed us out on the spot, looked us up the next morning bright and early; we were all on a .45 qualification range for our pistols—and he apologized for cussing us out and he told us he still wasn’t going to let us go. I think the XO talked some sense into him and he let us go find other jobs, but he didn’t release us. I actually had to take a leave, and because I was brand new in the army I didn’t have any leave built up. I went a hold on leave to go to predeployment gunnery with 2nd ACR. Gunnery got extended, and I had rented a car because I didn’t own a car at that time in Germany, so I was a week late on a German rental car which cost me about three or four thousand marks… that hurts on a 2nd Lieutenant’s salary, but in the end I got my deployment gunnery, did very well, and I got notified on 29 November that I was going to 2nd ACR. Pack your stuff, leave, leave now. I landed in Saudi Arabia on the first 747 out of Europe on 1 December. We would have landed about a day earlier than that, but there were problems…since we were the first planeload out of Europe…there had not been the diplomatic agreements made with countries so they didn’t give us over flight rights. We had to land in Switzerland, and we stayed there on the ground at Switzerland, where they wouldn’t let us deplane for almost 20 hours. JB: On the plane? HK: On the plane. Ran out of all food, water, all the toilets overflowing. It was not a fun flight. We were very happy to get to Saudi Arabia. JB: I imagine. When you were in Saudi Arabia, did you participate in any battles? HK: Yes, we participated in the Battle of 73 Easting. What 2nd ACR did...2nd ACR was the lead element for 7th Corps. The 7th Corps was basically the main elements of what was the Allied battle plan. While the 1st Cav held their nose and their attention around the southern part of the Al-batin Wadi, which is the border between Kuwait and Iraq that goes down and hits the Saudi Arabian border. 7th Corps would go do a wide flank out to the west and hit the Iraqi forces on the northern side of Kuwait, so coming in from the west. And we led 7th Corps. 3 �If you read in some of the history accounts, they say it was a lightning strike and it was a fast move, but it was very, very, very slow for us. It was: travel a little bit, stop, wait for a couple of hours, travel a little bit more, wait for a couple of hours. It was anything but a lightning strike. Of course, we were the first guys up there, so there was nobody in front of us. And the way 2nd ACR went about it, they put squadrons on line and they had two squadrons on line and they had one back in reserve. 2nd squadron was up in front, on the left front, or the northern edge of that as they turned to the east. 3rd squadron was to the south of us. And then on the afternoon of 26 February, there was a Shamal, basically what you call a sandstorm. And if you can imagine hurricane force winds blowing across the desert picking up anything in its path, that's a Shamal. You couldn't see without artificial assistance. We could see with our sights, because we had thermal sights and stuff, but you couldn't see hardly with the naked eye. If you tried to see with the naked eye, all the sand flying around would damage your eyes. And so we were just basically creeping forward when we met elements of the Tawakalna Division. Now they'd been some combat with 2nd ACR elements prior to that, but I was a tank platoon leader. Tank platoon leaders usually are back behind the scouts. Our scouts had seen contact and we had an advanced element from the squadron out front from Fox troop, and they had seen quite a lot of combat, but it was not the sustained, main defensive belt of the Iraqis. And what 2nd ACR was aiming for was the Republican Guard divisions from Saddam's forces. Basically, those were his elite professional army. The regular army units were kind of conscripts, and so that's what we were going for. We targeted for the Tawakalna and kind of hit them in the side. They did have a little bit of warning that we were coming that way so they had dug defensive positions, but when we hit them, they were not prepared. Vehicles were not cranked, vehicles were not manned. They were hunkered down with the sandstorm thinking there's no way the Americans are moving in this. And to an extent they were right, there was nothing flying because you...well, there was nothing that could see the ground that was flying. There was plenty of aircraft flying above the Shamals and all the bad weather, but they couldn't target anything in a raging sandstorm, so it was just the ground forces that were moving. And our movement at that point, when we gained contact, was literally about as fast as a man could walk. You were feeling one-track pad hit the ground at a time. There were other elements of our squadron that were getting contact. Our troop commander, Captain Sardiano, felt that it was imminent, so what he did was he pulled his scouts in and he put his troops online. So now he's in the center of the troop. He's got a tank platoon on each side of him so he's got his tanks in the middle and he's got his scouts spread out to the side. Now this made it easy to command and control, but when he did that, our frontage dropped substantially. And we had another cavalry troop that was beside us that our scouts were supposed to be maintaining contact with. Well, they lost contact with Eagle Troop in the sandstorm. And Eagle Troop got into a large fight with basically, at least a battalion of T-72s and some other vehicles and there's a pretty famous account of that. The Eagle Troop commander was Captain McMasters…when we were in Sardiano, he knew we were going to hit something. Well, the first 4 �inkling that we were moving into their defensive belt was, we saw through our thermal sights some mounds out in front of us and what you're basically seeing is a green, grayish picture on a little TV screen that anything out there that has heat in it shows up as white. So the hotter, the whiter. We were watching these two mounds and we see people coming out of one mound, and it was like, they were glowing, they were so hot in contrast to everything around them. And we knew there were no Americans in front of us, so that was probably the only correct fire command that I gave the whole time. Gunner Coax Troops he puts .762 into the guys that were coming out of the bunker and it was like kicking over an ant bed. And so what they did was they were coming out of the bunker... and they were running from one little mound to another. Now I'm a dumb redneck, but I can figure one's a mound and one's an armored vehicle and so I told the gunner to shoot the vehicle, and that's probably a little bit calm for what I said (laughter), I know I did not give a good fire command and I probably kicked him a couple of times as I was telling him to shoot it. But he put a heat round into the vehicle. It turned out it was a BMP 1....and about the time that... JB: A BMP is? HK: A Soviet-designed infantry carrier. It has a short-barreled 73 mm cannon and it has a small sagger rocket mounted above the cannon, and it has a lot of room in the back for a squad of dismounted infantry. So it was pretty potent weapon in its day, but it was quite obsolete when you look at the Bradley. And there were other types of BMPs on the battlefield so it was real important that we identify what type of vehicle that it was. So later on, I got kind of quizzed on what we had killed. Was it a BMP 1 or was it a BMP 2? BMP 2 had an upgraded missile system and an upgraded gun. Much more capable than a BMP 1. But the troop commander shot the vehicle probably not more than a second after I did. And now if you can imagine that the sandstorm was blowing from right to left as you're looking, and now added to 70-75 mile per hour winds that are going from right to left with all the sand in front of you, you've got smoke from a burning vehicle that had...was full of fuel, full of ammo, white hot, and now you've got this dense, black, hot smoke, and you're looking in thermal sights. So you can't see through the smoke, it's whiting out your sights. But every once in a while, if you've ever seen a leaf blow in a wind, it never blows in a straight direction, it's always twirling. But every once in a while you can see the smoke part and you can see past it to vehicles being cranked, guys running around, everybody is now alive. What they didn't realize was that that vehicle had been killed by a ground...an American ground vehicle. Everybody thought was, it was killed by the air, because they didn't see us, they didn't hear us, they had no way of detecting we were even there. But they were getting ready anyway. And we think that the way that the guys in the bunker actually knew to come out of the bunker that something's up was they could actually feel the ground shaking from all the armored vehicles, because it will do that. Even just a couple of tanks will make the ground shake for a while. But I got on the radio and I called my troop commander and said, "Sir, there's something going on behind the smoke. Request to take my platoon and punch a hole in the smoke and sees what's 5 �on the other side." He waited a second and told me "Roger, do that" and then at that point, I dropped off troop net and talked to my platoon sergeant and told him that I was going to operate on platoon net, I need you to monitor troop. We had two radios, but you could only talk on one. We had M1A1 tanks with a 120mm main gun; they were very modern, but we still didn't have good radios. So I dropped down to platoon net and about the time I'm dropping to platoon net the troop commander is calling me to tell me stop, wait, I'm coming with you with the rest of the tanks. Never heard him. Because I'm on platoon. And oh, by the way, my platoon sergeant got excited and never went to troop net. So we take off, disappear on the other side of the smoke, and about the time our tanks disappeared, all hell broke loose. Because when we punched through, we were looking at least a company plus of dug-in BMPs and tanks with infantry running all over the place. So as soon as we went through, and I did not issue, I don't think, a platoon fire command, where I, as a platoon leader can give a report to all my tank commanders to be ready, I'm going to shoot you all at once. It's a massive volley from a tank platoon, but we didn't do that. We...everybody was on their own. Each tank engaging whatever targets that were in his sector, and if we're tanks online, everybody knows where their sector is. So they're shooting in their sector and they're killing anything in their sector. And that's exactly what they were doing. It was main guns, it was .50 cals, it was 240s, it was loaders and tank commanders shooting off the top of their tanks. Because what was happening was the bunkers were getting engaged and destroyed, the tanks and BMPs were getting engaged and destroyed, and if you were in front of our tanks, you were going to get shot. You were going to get killed. It doesn't take guys in combat long to figure stuff like that out. So, the infantry was trying to stream past our tanks and Bradleys because that's behind us. Now, I can swerve my turret and I can shoot anything behind me, why am I going to shoot a guy running, screaming his head off, that's trying to get out of the way versus shooting a T-72 that's trying to kill me. So, the infantry's running... we were basically leaving them alone for machine guns, and the guys behind us, when they popped through the smoke, they were getting cut down. But, that didn't last but maybe three or four minutes. Now, at the time it seemed like it lasted a lot longer. And...When I finally went back up on troop net to give a spot report, which is basically to tell my troop commander Hey, this is me. This is what I'm doing, I need to give you an updated situation. Tell him what I'm engaged with, what actions I've taken, have I killed anything, what have I killed. Have I taken casualties and all that. And you try to do that very quickly. Let's just say that he was not happy to hear from me at that point, since I had not talked to him since I started firing. And that had been a couple minutes. And he was on the other side of the smoke with the rest of the Cav troop, not knowing exactly what to do, and if there's 120mm tank rounds and large caliber machine guns going off, you probably don't want to just drive up into that. So, he waited till I got on the net. He told me to get my ass back on the other side of the smoke, so I pulled my tanks back. It took me a little while to get my tank commanders back on the radio, because you're fighting your tanks. You can either fight your radio or you can fight your tank. 6 �Usually you can't fight both. So I basically had to scream and holler and get my platoon sergeant to scream and holler, get them up on the radio and get them to pull back. We pulled back and... We had basically killed everything that was up there. And it was just a small strongpoint about...I think there were 13 vehicles we killed in that spot, and untold number of infantry. JB: And how many tanks were in your platoon? HK: Four. Typically the way a Cav troop is set up is you have a tank...well, you have a commander that's in a tank. You have two tank platoons, each with four tanks. So you've got nine tanks. Your XO is usually fighting a TOC, which is a non-tactical big box on tracks. But that is your tactical operations center, your TOC. Our TOC had broken down, so our XO, our executive officer, the 2IC of the troop was basically fighting out of a Bradley. He had made the crew compartment of the Bradley into his TOC, or into our TOC. And then additionally, you have two scout platoons. Scout platoons have Bradleys, and they have six Bradleys per scout platoon, and you also have a mortar section, with two mortar tracks. So you've got, in our Cav troop, thirteen Bradleys, nine tanks, two mortar tracks. Very, very lethal combination. JB: Did your platoon suffer any casualties in this conflict? HK: None. But, about... well, I won't even try to tell you how long it was before this happened, because I have really no idea. Time is... time is a resource that you use, but you don't really understand how long it's taking you to do stuff in combat. You have no idea of time. You want to do everything in a hurry. So, you're blood's pumping, you've got adrenaline going, and you're really not sure how long it's taking you to do stuff. Probably a couple of minutes after we pulled back, the closest Bradley to our left, 1-6, First platoon, number 6 track, Staff Sergeant Caffey's track, was hit by a cannon, a 73mm cannon from a BMP. Now the only BMPs were the ones that we had just engaged. Now when the first round hit, his gunner, Sergeant Andrew Moller, looked at Sergeant Caffey and went, "What the blank is that?" Then about one second later, the 2nd round hit, and it punctured the turret of the Bradley. You have to understand that where it hit was below the tow launcher for the Bradley. In the stow or travel position, that tow launcher is down and it's covering a weak spot on that turret. But when he's stationary, and that tow is engaged, that tow comes up and out, and is sitting above the turret, leaving a vulnerable weak spot and this cannon projectile happened to hit that weak spot. 2nd round penetrates the turret of the Bradley, decapitates Sergeant Moller. I believe, looking at the AAR he died sometime around 1430 to 1500 on February 26, 1991. That was really the only killed in action we had that day. Now, the rest of his crew on that Bradley, they took some busted eardrums, some shrapnel...Staff Sergeant Caffey was kind of screwed up with shrapnel for a little while, but he managed to evacuate himself out his side of the turret. The over pressure of the explosion jammed all of the doors on the Bradley, so the guys that were in the back in the back of the Bradley and the crew couldn't get out except through the driver's hole, 7 �and you could go around the turret on the left and get out where the driver's seat is. The driver had his hatch cracked, so it didn't get jammed. They actually left the vehicle running and evacuated their wounded. First sergeant comes up and he's evacuating wounded. Somebody else had to go turn their track off. At that time they should have evacuated the track, they didn't. They left it sitting up there, and what the... what the track had done, the track commander, the BC, Bradley Commander, had decided he wanted to get a better look at the battlefield, so he went to the highest piece of terrain in that desert, which was only a couple of meters higher than everything else, but he skylined himself, and he got killed. And I'm pretty certain to this day that the BMP that got him was probably one that was sitting unmanned that we probably put a couple of holes in with Sable rounds, but not a heat round. A Sable round is nothing more than just a big steel dart. And it will just punch a hole in it. But if it doesn't hit something vital, like engine, ammunition, fuel, it just punches a hole in it. So that track probably had a couple big holes in it, but it was still functional, because there was nothing else left over there that could have done that and so that was very...well, it really took the motivation of the troop down when Sergeant Moller was killed, but they got the rest of the crew evacuated, and basically on a larger scale what had happened was that 2nd Squadron, 2nd ACR had been coming in from the west. The Iraqis were trying to retreat from Kuwait and were going basically straight north. We stuck out and formed a salient into their escape route. And so what they were doing was they were bumping into Eagle Troop on our right and kind of flowing around the front of Eagle Troop and Ghost Troop, and wrapping around Ghost Troop, trying to get back into Iraq and escape towards Basra, to the north. And so, throughout that afternoon, we kept on coming into contact with what we thought were people that were...were units that were basically attacking us. They weren't really attacking us, we know that now. They were just trying to escape. They were trying to get out of the way and we were stuck in their way. And the reason I say they were hitting Eagle Troop to our right was the other troop from our squadron had not moved up as far as Eagle Troop and 3rd squadron on its right was still behind them. So we were sticking out. We were the lead element, the sharp point of 7th Corps there for a while. Now we had some bad reporting going on. The platoon leader for first platoon called that he was black on ammo. Black means: I'm less than 40 percent, which is: I don't have enough ammo; I need help immediately. Well, he was not black on ammo. He was black on Tows, but he still had 25. Well, he didn't clarify that. So his report goes up, incorrect, to the troop XO, who goes "Oh, shit," calls up squadron and says "Ghost troop is black on ammo." That causes a huge stir because we can carry a whole lot of ammo, and so they pushed a tank company up to basically take over our fight for us. And I don't think the tank company got much of a fight after they got there because there was not much left. But that was a...a little bit of a scary...a relief in place. Because there was still a fight going on, and you've got…and then it was starting to be dark and you've got a tank company that hasn't seen a whole lot of fighting and there seeing hot spots in front of them. Some of them were our vehicles; some of them were the enemy's vehicles. 8 �They're seeing what they think is rounds being shot at them, tracers, and they can tell that it's enemy tracers by the color, because their color tracers are different from ours, but when you hit a vehicle filled with ammunition, it burns. It burns, it explodes, tracers go off. There were no shots coming against Hawk Company coming up behind us, but they came up firing. Between me and my wingman at that time was about 500 meters because we had spread out. Sandstorm was over by that time. We had good visibility so we spread out. I had four tanks come up firing between me and my wingman and we had not seen an alive target in hours by that point. Three tanks from Hawk Company shot 1-6, our Bradley. So we were never able to evacuate Sergeant Moller's body from the battlefield. He was cremated where he died in the turret of Ghost 1-6. And if you...a Bradley is an aluminum fighting vehicle and aluminum burns. It burns very, very hot. I think they hit it with two heat rounds and a Sable round. We went back a couple days later and evacuated that vehicle from there. JB: Now, were you awarded any medals or citations for your service in Desert Storm? HK: I got a Bronze Star for valor...let me see, I had two Silver Stars in my platoon, I think three or four more Bronze Stars with Valor, three or four more Bronze Stars. I think I had the most decorated platoon out of Desert Storm. But I'm not sure about that. But I think it's true. JB: After Desert Storm was over, what were your other duty posts after the war? HK: Well, when we got back to Europe, 2nd ACR basically drew down after about a year. I didn't want to come back to the States. I was having a ball as a single Lieutenant with nothing to spend money on for six months during the war, so I'm flush with cash. I stayed there. I went to Schweinfurt to 3/4 Cav which was a Division Cavalry squadron with the 3rd I.D. and I think I came back in '94, a few years later...to go to my Captain's career course. After that I went out to Fort Bliss, the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment where I worked as a staff officer, then a troop commander. While I was out there they actually moved the regiment north to Fort Carson. I got a second troop command at Fort Carson, and that was all fun and games. And then, after being a troop commander, I was allowed to go back to Mississippi, and I went to Camp Shelby, by Hattiesburg, Mississippi, where I was the Cav team leader for a training command basically. What we did was we trained the National Guard. So I got to go to this TSB, Training Support Brigade, and I was in an armored task force as the Cav team leader. And I actually worked with the 155th Mechanized Infantry Brigade, which I had been a member of when I was in college, and so all the people I'm working with, or most of them, I knew. It was a great experience. I got to go back and help train some of my friends. I did that for a few years. In 1999... or 2000, excuse me, 2000-2001, I went to Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth. Do that for a year, got a master's degree and then in 2002... And I was there for September 11, at Command and General Staff College... I got to go to 1st Cav, and the reason I went to First Cav was we knew something was fixing to happen in the Middle East, and I just knew that 1st Cav would be in on it. So I actually changed the unit I was going to--I was supposed to go to Fort Lewis to be in a striker unit--but who want to be on a striker if you're going to get shot at, I'd rather be in a tank, so I went to 1st Cav. 9 �JB: Now, when did you learn that you were going to be deployed a second time to the Middle East? HK: Well, we thought we were going to be deployed for the initial push into Iraq. In fact, our division commander told us we were. But we were on one of the original troop lists, but they took 1st Cav off. They basically dumbed down the amount of troops going in, so we did not get deployed. The division just across post--the 4th Infantry Division, at that time nicknamed the Indoor division because they usually didn't do anything…they did get deployed...in the plan they were supposed to go through Turkey but it didn't work out with the Turks. So they ended up coming in later through Kuwait and going north. But we sat out the initial push at Fort Hood. And then we were told we were going to be in what was called OIF 2, Operation Iraqi Freedom II, so we were one of the first divisions out of the United States to go over and relieve the guys that went in first. We actually took over for a division out of Europe, 1st Armored Division. JB: And what month was that when you... HK: I went over in February. The rest of the unit got over in March. I was the advanced party for our brigade. JB: What year? HK: That would have been 19...2004, excuse me. JB: When you were in Iraq the second time, did you see any combat? HK: Saw a little bit, but it was a different flavor. When I went over, I was the battalion executive officer for a tank battalion, and our job basically was we owned the Green Zone, the international zone, and some of the areas around it that affected it. And our brigade owned all that and a little bit more area. Our battalion, an engineer battalion, a field artillery battalion, and our brigade headquarters, along with a national guard infantry battalion that belonged to us from Arkansas, and another national guard infantry battalion from Washington State, were all stationed in or contiguous to the Green Zone. But it was basically my battalion's battle space. We owned all the checkpoints and entry control points, ECPs, for the Green Zone. So it was more of an urban fight. You've seen the footage on TV of the VBID, the vehicle-born-improvised explosives devices. Basically we lost, I think we had 17 VBIDs on our checkpoints while we were there, with a little bit of loss of life, with a few Americans killed, a few more Iraqis killed of our soldiers. Now there were a lot of civilians, because basically what they would do was wait until there was a crowd. They'd actually call in a bomb threat on a northern checkpoint, force everybody to come in to the southern checkpoints, and then blow them up. They loved to target civilians. Then I was doing that for only about three months of that deployment and then I moved up to be the brigade 10 �executive officer for 3rd brigade, so I was responsible for most of the logistics of the brigade and we had, I think at the height of it, we had about...about 10,000 soldiers under 3rd brigade, just a little bit short, which is a whole lot of people for a brigade. JB: How long did you stay in Iraq on your deployment? HK: Altogether, it was about 14 or 15 months. I ended up also being one of the last guys out of Iraq for the division, and I had been one of the first in for the brigade. But our brigade was the last one in, so we were the last one out. JB: And so that would have had you leaving May or June of 2005? HK: It was around April... April, first part of May, 2005. JB: Where were your duty posts after that stint in Iraq? HK: I got to go to United States...basically, Southcom, which is in Miami. And that's...what the U.S. military does is they divide the world up into areas, then they assign a four-star headquarters to all areas. Southcom is United States Army Southern Command, and it is responsible for everything in South America, Central America, and the Caribbean. But they had just stood up a small joint headquarters for Southcom for the four-star, called a standing JointForce Headquarters. The way we fight now is...really the Army doesn't ever go in and do anything by themselves, they go in as joint force, with the Air Force, with the Navy, if possible, with the Marines. They'll be multiple services in there. The way you do that is you form a joint force headquarters. What our unit did, was we had people from all different services in one small headquarters, and we could fall in on your service headquarters, be it Marine, Army, Air Force, Navy, and we could "purple-ize" you. You know you think of the Air Force and Navy being blue, and the Army being green. Well, we think of the joint force being purple. So we can fall in with all these different types of people in your headquarters and we could instantly turn you into a joint headquarters. And that was interesting. I got to go a lot of places in South, Central America and the Caribbean, you know, that were not usually places you think of U.S. Army soldiers deploying to. JB: And then you...wound up in Boone? HK: And then I got to be a professor of military science, and I got to come to the infamous Mountaineer Battalion and been here for two years, got one left and having a blast. JB: You had two different stints in Iraq, and I'm curious if you could speak to what were the differences in your two trips a decade apart into Iraq? HK: Well, the first one was real simple. It was just desert warfare. You didn't have to worry about any civilians. You didn't have to worry about any politics. And for me, where we were located within the American forces, anything in front of me was enemy. I didn't have to worry 11 �about shooting it. I didn't have to go: Is that guy pointing a weapon at me? If he's out in the middle of the desert and he's wearing a uniform, he was dead. Point blank. Now, the second time we went in, we were in the city, it was an urban environment. Everybody over there looks the same. And you're an American, you don't speak Arabic, you don't speak their language, you don't know their culture. It was hard for you to tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy. Now, if you took a regular Iraqi and you stood a Jordanian guy up in front of him, he was instantly [snaps his finger] tell you, that's not an Iraqi, he's from Jordan. Don't you hear that? Can't you understand that? And it's like, you know, taking a Chinese guy and having an American from Boston and an American from Atlanta speaking. We hear the difference but they don't. We don't hear the small little subtleties in their language. So it was very, very different. We were also there at a time when the coalition was trying to stand up a Federal government for Iraq. And so, we were the forces making that happen. There was a State Department presence there, but they weren't doing very much. So we were actually trying to be the peer mentors to stand up their Congress. We were standing up their armed forces. We were...we had a U.S. Army major with a finance degree was the one trying to set up their stock market system. Because we couldn't get the state department to come in with pure mentors. A lot of people don't understand that when we went to war in World War II, if they needed an expertise...if you were a small town mayor and they needed a mayor for a town in Germany, they'd draft your butt, and you were in Germany several months later running that town. We didn't have anything like that, and we still don't. We...we are a pretty pure combat and logistics oriented force, and we contract out a lot of our upper level logistics, because we just don't want to spend the money on the force, because it's very expensive. But it was a totally different situation the second time. We were involved in politics, which is never a good thing for a military force. JB: You've been in the army now for 25 years. How have you seen the army change during your tenure? HK: Well, first off, I'll speak to the Reserves. When I came in the Reserves were just that, just a part time force. Some units were better than others, but they had never really deployed in a long, long time, and they were not that professional. That's not the National Guard Reserves that you have today. These guys are deployed as much or more than their active counterparts. And if you had the unprofessional people before, they're not in it now. They either got out quickly, or they didn't survive the environment and they were fired. So the reserves are tremendously better. I can't even...they're exponentially better than they were for the active force, I think it's gotten better and better. We've survived some political regimes that took us way down, but we're...we stayed a very professional force. We've got the best hardware in the world, and I think we've got the best soldiers and best NCOs in the world. The only thing that kind of bothers me sometimes is that some of our senior leaders seem to be more political than anything else. Maybe that's the state of affairs that we live in today, but it's pretty shallow for some of the stuff that's done. 12 �JB: Is there anything else that we have left out that you would like to speak to, or a closing thought? HK: [long pause] Not right off the top of my head. JB: Well, if not, I thank you very much for your time. It's been a very enlightening and pleasurable interview. HK: Alright, thank you, sir. JB: Thank you. 13 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/33574704758452eb7fa251886f3a1593.mp3 dc584703cbc09affd99f6a6be485a4dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Kilgore, Haimes Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Browning, Dr. Judkin Interview Date 8/20/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:23 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Tag Mississippi National Guard, ROTC, Fort Dix, Desert Shield, Calvary, Baghdad, Fort Riley, Germany, Bronze Star, Army Southern Command, Southcom Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Haimes Kilgore, 20 August 2010 Subject The topic of the resource Operation Desert Shield, 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War, 1991 Kilgore, Haimes Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Haimes Kilgore, interviewed by Judkin Browning, enlisted in the Mississippi National Guard at age 17. He was deployed into combat twice, the first time during Operation Desert Storm and the second time to Saudi Arabia, and speaks of his experiences. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kilgore, Haimes Browning, Judkin Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 13 pages Language A language of the resource English Battle of 73 Easting commissioned officer Desert Storm Fort Dix Green Zone Baghdad Lieutenant Colonel Haimes National Guard Saudi Arabia Shamal https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4e1166f6adfd62eac71d15b95b91f2bc.pdf d8f620721638a726d520c321cc20790e PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript John Helms Drexel, North Carolina 14 October 2011 HF: Harrison Fletcher JH: John Helms HF: All right, my name is Cadet Harrison Fletcher; we're in Drexel, North Carolina. Today is October 14, 2011 and I'm conducting an interview with Mr. John Helms, World War Two veteran, and the interview is for our Military History class and the information provided in the oral history archives at Appalachian State University. Thank you for being here Mr. Helms, I appreciate it and I appreciate your service most of all. First off, I'm going to ask you, you just feel free to answer however you want. Where were you born and raised? JH: Right here in Drexel. HF: Drexel? JH: Yes. HF: What was your birth date? JH: April the 20th, 1923. HF: How old were you and in what year did you enter the service? JH: I volunteered like a dummy, I quit high school (clears throat) and joined the Army now that's smart isn’t it (laughter well, I didn't realize we were going go straight to war. Anyway, I joined in November…I mean…January 1943. That was when the war started for us, in 1943. Then I went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana. We stayed there until to spring of 43' and then we went on maneuvers in the desert for 3 months. We walked from the desert. Can you believe there is a desert below Knoxville, Tennessee? There was one in Tennessee. We walked all the way back. Took three weeks to walk back to Camp Atterbury, Indiana. We walked every step of the way back (laughter) took three weeks to do it and we stayed there until 1944 and we (stutters) we went from Camp Atterbury down to Fort Breckinridge, Kentucky that time and I stayed there until the spring of ‘44. Then we went to England and landed in Southampton. And we went up in the mountains there in Southampton, England and stayed up there for about two to three weeks up in there where it rains about every day and then we finally came out and we went all the way down to the English Channel. We went down to the English Channel and the British had a great big ship sitting there and 15 thousand of us got on that thing. We went from there to the Normandy landing and the 1 �weather was so bad we couldn't make no land we stayed there for about a week waiting for the weather to let up. You probably know that already. HF: Hmm (acknowledges). JH: We sat there until the weather let up and we got in there and made that Normandy landing. Lucky I wasn't in the first wave. The first wave that went in they just killed them all. I went in about the fourth or fifth wave and a lot of us got killed then. You got to know you were in a little old boat going in there and they were up there sitting on top of that of bank about a hundred feet high shooting at you with everything they had, you didn't have nothing. They killed a lot of us before we got off and when we got off that thing the water was still deep were we got off the boat at and some of us that went in never came up. HF: (Acknowledges). JH: You see we had all that gear on us, I had a rifle and had all that damn mess swung around my neck and getting ready to go in for the Normandy landing. They were a lot of them that never did come back up. After we got in there and got that beach head established, we started fighting across France and the 4th of July was the main push-off to start the whole war, it was for us. Man, I tell you right now, you talk about the 4th of July. I thought we shot off firecrackers on the fourth of July; we had some firecracker works (laughter). They killed about half of us. You know there was about 190 makes up a platoon [possible mistakenly references his company] and by that evening there was only 43 of us left. HF: For documenting purposes, what unit were you with and start with your division and go all the way down to your…(Helms cuts in). JH: I stayed with the 83rd through the whole thing. HF: The 83rd Infantry Division? JH: Yes, sir. HF: And the composition of that was all light infantry? JH: Yeah, there were not any colored (mistakes “light” for “white”) in it at all. Back then they wouldn't let colored people just enter the service. They might have been in the truck driving stuff but they didn't get into the fighting and I didn't see any of them. HF: And it was a light infantry division? JH: Yeah. HF: Foot infantry? 2 �JH: Yes, I was in the light infantry and we fought until we got into southern France fixing to go in about where, southern France where you go in, what’s that country that’s got a (hesitates). HF: Switzerland? JH: About the time we got to go into the Switzerland we got word to load back up because Germany had broke through the Battle of the Bulge. They was taking everybody up there to stop them German’s to keep from circling around and having us closed out and we fought in there until we got to the Battle of the Bulge and we stayed in there and it was below 30 below zero in there and we didn’t have the clothing for that. HF: You were part of Patton’s relief force? JH: No, they fought beside of us, but it wasn’t no relief force we was with them. HF: You were with them and then? JH: Yes, we fought beside of them mostly then the infantry helped protect them. We would take these battalion tanks and things. They would get all knocked out if they didn’t have somebody outside to protect them. All they would have to do walk up and shoot the tank or something and the people would try to come out and they would kill everyone that come out of the tank and if they didn’t come out they’d shoot through the tank. HF: Hmmm. JH: They had the stuff to shoot through them. Our guns wouldn’t do it, but theirs would do it. That 88 would shoot through anything. HF: The German 88’s. JH: That is the best gun that’s ever been made. Anyway we got into the battle of the bulge and it took about three to four weeks to clear that out and we started going across Europe and we stayed in Europe until we got to the Rhine river and man I said man I tell you right now trying to go across that Rhine river in a boat was going to be tough, but we finally got them hooked across from there and the engineers got a bridge built across there. You would put these things in there and run (interrupted). HF: A pontoon bridge? JH: Yes, a pontoon bridge. They finally got a pontoon bridge, but half of them got killed trying to build it and the German’s come down there and tried to knock it out all the time they were trying to go across it and they had a time getting across that thing, getting across the Rhine river (chuckled). With them standing there shooting at you and you trying to come across you didn’t have much of a chance I tell you. We didn’t have much of a chance at all because there equipment was superior to anything we had. 3 �HF: Yes. JH: I don’t know about the airplanes. We had an advantage in the airplane, but the Germans, the rest of it, the tanks and infantry they had the advantage of us. They were well trained and we weren’t. You would go in there and spend a year or six months here. Hey were some of the boys come over with 13 weeks of training. Once we would get killed off they send some over here with only about 13 weeks of training. That wasn’t right, but that is what they did. We didn’t have enough a fighting for us. Each week they’d get killed off and we have to have another bunch come in the next week to do the fighting and you can believe or not, but from the time I landed in Normandy until we crossed the Elbe River looking at Berlin I never left the front lines. HF: So you stayed (got interrupted)? JH: I got wounded four times. HF: Four times? JH: Four times. I got shot through the neck twice looking out a window trying to direct fire on a pill box. They had a rifle with a scope on it and they stood and shot me. They shot me right through the neck. They was a boy standing right behind me looking over my shoulder and they shot him through, cutting his spine and killed him dead and I let him go. HF: So you stayed on the front pretty much then? JH: I stayed on the front from the time we landed in Normandy until we crossed the Elbe River and the war ended. HF: Through the whole campaign? JH: Yes, I never left the front lines. HF: Going back to the Normandy campaign, you care to describe the beaches if you don’t mind? JH: When I got there, see I was about the fourth or fifth wave. The first wave that got in there, they had that thing mined. I got the pictures of that in here (shuffling through papers) at beachhead and all of that. Let me see if I can find some of them and show you. HF: We have a reference, a history book for his division and he is showing me the photographs of Normandy Landing and the beach obstacles. JH: Yes, they showed you all that. They were just like that and that barbed wire up there, they had that razor sharp barbed wire. You had to go in there and try to get over that and them mines were so thick you couldn’t set a foot down it’d blow your legs off with them little mines they had set in that sand. 4 �Oh, Lord a lot of them got their legs blown off trying to get into that and that bank there was about 100 feet high and I finally get in there and got to that bank and laid my back against that bank and I couldn’t sit down. I stayed there and everything got cooled down a little bit. HF: How heavy was the German fire when you landed? JH: Oh, Lord you didn’t have a chance. They had been there ten years preparing for that. HF: Um hmm. JH: They whooped France and come in there and they had all these pill boxes over and guns sticking out and all they had to do was stand in them pill boxes and shoot at you. They had those big trenches built around there and pill boxes with all of them machine guns on there and all we had to do was walk along over the ground and you didn’t have much chance of surviving it. HF: Yes. JH: Anyway we got through all that stuff and got through certain parts of it. Look through this and you can see ever bit of it from day one. This book right here’s got ever minute of it. HF: After the beaches were secured on Normandy describe what the following days were like when you were trying to secure the area or the hedgerow country. JH: Oh, Lord we got to have that? Well I’ll tell you when that all started. We finally fought our way up that bank and got up there on the land. We got set and had enough troops. The main war started with us on the 4th of July and I never will forget it. I said here I used to be at home shooting firecrackers at the 4th of July, this is a big firecracker thing (chuckled). Yes sir. When that evening ended after the 1st day there were 43 of us out of 190. The rest of them had been killed or wounded. HF: Forty-three out of 190? And what was the fighting like in those weeks following Normandy when the allied forces were bottled up in Normandy for that initial period after the invasion, how hard was the fighting in the country? JH: Them German’s never did let up. They intended to fight until the last; they fought until the last straw. They didn’t give up. There were some of them that did give up finally. When we 1st landed in Normandy and we got to the top of that bank there was a big peninsula out in the Atlantic Ocean there, we captured 60,000 there to start with. They were in that peninsula there, at Cherbourg. HF: Sixty-thousand at Cherbourg? JH: Yeah, it will tell you in here. There were about 60,000 of them. We captured about 60,000 of their troops to start with. 5 �HF: So, you were involved in the taking of Cherbourg, the capture of Cherbourg? JH: Yes, that was in the Normandy. That is where it was at in Normandy. That’s what I was talking about. HF: Um hmm, the follow-up capture. JH: We captured about 60,000 after we got in and landed in Normandy there. I said this war could have ended we caught that many of them, but that was just the damn scratch of it. You know they robbed every country over there and made them fight for them. They were about five or six Balkan countries over there and they got people out of all of them in their army and that’s where they got them fighting for them. HF: Did you run into any foreign soldiers fighting with the Germans in France? JH: Did I do what now? HF: Did you run into any soldiers from the Balkans that who were fighting for the German’s in France? JH: Oh yes, you seen them all. They were mixed and I mean all of them Balkan countries was part of the German army. That was it. HF: So they mixed them with your German units? JH: Oh yeah. But the only thing about is you couldn’t understand anything they said, I couldn’t (laughed). We fought through Germany until we got to France and we were fixing to go down into the southern part of France when the battle of the bulge broke out. They put us on a truck and rode us all the way up there day and night until we got there. But it was during Christmas and about halfway up they stopped long enough for us get Christmas dinner. Somebody had something cooked and we stopped long enough to eat Christmas dinner on the way to the battle of the bulge. HF: Did you stop in Paris before you were moved to (was interrupted)? JH: No, we didn’t see Paris. I didn’t see it going or coming. I never did get into Paris. When I got ready to come back I came by the edge of Paris and went down there and caught one of them boats. HF: Um hmm. JH: But, anyway we fought into Germany there. Man they was tough when you got into Germany. We freed German people too you know. We went into their cellars and houses. When we went across France every cellar had a wine cellar in it every one of them. You’d get all of the 6 �wine you wanted when we were going across France. Man you could get plenty of wine to drink if you liked to drink. HF: (Laughed). JH: Every house had a wine cellar in France, every one of them. HF: Um hmm. JH: (Stutters) Well, when we 1st got in there they had bridges of dirt about that high on about an acre of land, each one with hedge rows, they called it, and around them hedge rows they had fruit trees all the way around the acre of land. The next over there was an acre of land with fruit trees that was about that way for about 20 miles into France with all of them fruit trees and them hedge rows. HF: Um hmm. JH: And well, they wouldn’t let us pick up no German equipment. One of them boys shot one of them German officers and he had a pistol in his pocket and they captured it. HF: A Luger pistol? JH: Yes sir. He had that in his pocket when they captured him. They took him out there and I tell you what (stutters) they tied him up between two trees. His feet were about that high off the ground. They tied his arms out to the trees and his feet out to the trees and took that pistol and stuck it down his throat. When we got there he was there stuck with that pistol down his throat. That pistol they had in his pocket they told us. That old man said right there we aren’t going to pick up anymore German equipment. It cost that boy for picking that up. They rammed a gun down his throat. That’s when they said we could never pick up another German pistol and couldn’t have it; wasn’t allowed to pick up nothing. I didn’t want it no way. I had a pistol that I carried. I carried a pistol through there, but it wasn’t no good. It was a 38. You ever seen one of them American pistols? HF: Yes, a 38? JH: It won’t shoot. I tell you what we had some ammunition in that thing and the bullet dropped about 100 yards out of that pistol. The ammunition was faulty in that pistol. HF: Wow. JH: You couldn’t do anything with those pistols. I carried one of them, but it wouldn’t, up real close as to that wall you could kill somebody with a .38. HF: What was your opinion of the German soldiers? 7 �JH: The best in the world. HF: The best in the world? JH: They were well trained in equipment. HF: Very well trained? What was their morale? JH: But, there was one thing about it they would give up. If you go the ups on them he would give up. HF: Um hmm. JH: They were a well-guided force there is no doubt about it. They had been trained for years before we ever got there. HF: Um hmm. Was there a sense of mutual respect between the two? JH: Yeah, we respected each other, but I tell as we got in there the deeper we got into German territory the meaner they got to us. They killed some of our boys and left them laying at different times and all of that stuff. That was after we got in Germany. They didn’t do it in France, but after we got in Germany they got to where they would do something like that. HF: So they got more desperate towards the end? JH: Yeah they were more desperate towards the end. We finally got to the Rhine River and I dreaded crossing that Rhine River in a boat and them over there shooting at you (chuckles). HF: Um hmm. JH: But finally they brought in the Air Force there. You wouldn’t believe it. They brought in so many planes over there I don’t see how they come across and bombed them. We sent thousands of planes in there. They air was full of them bombing them Germans where we come across the Rhine River. HF: Um hmm. JH: The engineers came and finally got bridge across there, them float things and put that bridge across there and we got across, but I went across in a boat. We went across before that bridge was ever built and we got to fighting in Germany. A Germany town to me is like America. They were the closest country to America I was in since I was over there. HF: Oh really? JH: Oh yeah. There are streets and towns and lights and everything they had in the stores and everything was similar to the America. I enjoyed that part of it, seeing something like home. I 8 �tell you something else I seen in Germany, they had Christmas trees. It was Christmas season. I looked into some of the homes and they had lights and Christmas trees. HF: Yes. JH: The ones that didn’t get run out. HF: Was the German resistance elevated in their homeland, in Germany? JH: Oh yeah, oh yeah, their resistance it was unreal. HF: Was it much greater than France? JH: Well, they didn’t let up over in the France or nowhere else. They were out to kill you. They were out to win. If you were back in your country and you know somebody was going to take it you’re going fight to the last straw. HF: Um hmm, that’s right. JH: Anyway I was on the front lines and never left the front lines for a solid year I was going for the fourth time and I got shot through the neck twice. I got a piece of shrapnel in my leg yet. HF: It’s still in there? JH: Yeah, right in there. HF: Yeah, I see that. JH: I got a piece in there yet. I thought they’d shot my foot off (laughs). HF: Shot. Did they ever try to remove it? JH: No, I didn’t let them go in there and operate on mine. HF: Has it been a major hindrance to you or is it just? JH: No, it hurts once in a while, but I don’t pay any attention to it. HF: Oh, yeah. JH: If it did I would have it took out. Anyway we fought across France and then we went up to Belgium to start with trying to stop that Battle of the Bulge. We go up there and it was 30 below zero with three foot of snow on the ground. It snowed for two weeks while I was in there 24 hours a day. For three weeks we was in there and it snowed every day and night and it 30 below zero. You can imagine what that was being in there. We won the battle anyway. 9 �HF: Were you adequately supplied for the (interrupted) JH: Oh yes, we had plenty of ammunition. They kept us supplied. HF: What about clothing, warm clothing, did they give you enough? JH: Do what now? No, our clothes weren’t for that. We didn’t have any clothing for that weather. HF: How did you stay warm? JH: We had that underwear that hooked behind, but that wasn’t enough with what clothes you had on. HF: Yeah. JH: I tell you what I did and a lot of them they told us when we went there, said you go to sleep your going to die. If you laid down and went to the sleep your froze to death. That was the Battle of the Bulge. Yeah ran in place the whole time, I done it all night long, I mean all night long. The next morning I was still running to keep my feet from freezing. HF: Hmm. JH: We didn’t have no boots or nothing to combat that weather. HF: Did a lot of soldiers suffer from frostbite? JH: Oh Lord yeah, Lord some of them lost their legs with frostbite in there around 30 below zero I tell you right now. Now my brother Jeff he was in there and he got froze. They came a hair of taking his legs off. He stayed in the hospital down at Raleigh down there about six months. They was going to take his legs, Jeff, your know Jeff, they was going to take his legs off at one time. He wouldn’t let them. HF: Did they pull him off of the front lines? JH: Yeah, yeah, he got froze and they pulled him off and he came back. Now Gerald went over there before any of them. Gerald was the first one in there. They took him to South Africa. Gerald went over and started in South Africa and went from there to Italy and they left Italy and invaded the southern part of France. HF: So he was with that expedition, the Southern France Expedition? JH: Yeah, the ones that started fighting it and most of them came up and invaded France to help us get a head start in there. We had plenty of fighting for us and everything. The United States, France, and all of us were fighting in that. You know France isn’t much bigger than Texas and 10 �Germany is the same way. Germany isn’t much bigger than Texas. Can you imagine a country the size of Texas fighting the world? HF: Um hmm. It hard to believe it isn’t it? JH: Yes. I walked all the way across France and all the way across Germany and all the rest of it. I walked all the way across there to do it all. I didn’t ride any of it. We walked it all. HF: True infantry huh? JH: True infantry. HF: Never got trucked anywhere hardly? JH: Huh? HF: Did you ever get trucked anywhere, motor moved? JH: Once in a while. They trucked from the southern part of France to the Battle of the Bulge up there. They were trying to stop them. HF: And that was just for speed purposes? JH: Yes, for speed purposes. They rode us up through there and they stopped long enough for us, it was during Christmas. They stopped about an hour. They had some Christmas dinner cooked and we stopped and ate Christmas dinner on the way to the Battle of the Bulge. HF: Um hmm. Going back to the beginning of the war, what made you personally volunteer for service before (interrupted). JH: You ain’t going to believe it. HF: What is it? JH: I was a poor boy and didn’t have any money. I went to high school up here barefooted. HF: Um hmm. JH: That’s exactly how come me in there. HF: Um hmm. JH: I joined the Army at 17. Nobody didn’t have nothing back then much. HF: So you joined to better yourself? 11 �JH: Yeah, I joined to get some money. HF: To get some money? JH: Yeah, I went to high school up here (stuttered) in November barefooted. HF: Um hmm. JH: That’s the truth. HF: Yeah. JH: We didn’t get no new clothes. My mother patched my overalls and if I got a whole in that patch she’d put a patch over that patch. HF: How would you say the patriotism and the idealism, fighting for the country, how did that play into the uh? JH: It couldn’t have been no better. HF: Um hmm. Did that play into a lot of your decisions to ah? JH: Yeah, everybody would help everybody. If something happened one of us somebody would stop and help them. Everybody was for everybody in that. You see if you wasn’t you wasn’t going to go nowhere. HF: So, you say fighting for each other is what kept you? JH: That’s exactly right. Fighting for this country; we didn’t want to be under German rule. They drilled that into every day when you were training. We didn’t want the Germans to win this war; there wouldn’t be any more America. HF: Yes. JH: They wouldn’t. If the Germans won the war there wouldn’t have been any more America. HF: Um hmm it was crucial, yeah. JH: Yeah we would have been prisoners. If they would have took over you would be in prison. HF: Um hmm. JH: I thought about that. HF: Was that one of the things that kept you going? 12 �JH: Yeah, that kept everybody going. HF: Um hmm. Describe your relationship with your fellow comrades, your fellow soldiers. JH: We were ideal. Everybody was for everybody. HF: Were they mostly your same age or younger? JH: I was only about 18. When I came back after the war was over I was only 20. HF: Um hmm. JH: See, I quit high school to join the Army. HF: So even the NCOs, noncommissioned officers, were they still young? JH: Yeah, a lot of them were. HF: And the officer corps? JH: You can see through here in this book the officers in here. Every one of the officers are here, right in the front of this thing (looking at a photograph). HF: What was your rank by the time you got out? JH: I was a sergeant. HF: You were a sergeant by the time you got out? JH: Yeah. Here’s all of the officers (referring to a book) There’s part of them, there’s part of them, there’s part of them, and here’s part of them. HF: How many soldiers did you have? Did you command a squad? JH: Squad, I had my own squad. I was in the mortars. HF: The mortar squad? JH: Yeah, the mortar squad. HF: So how many men did you have under you about. JH: Seven. HF: Seven, okay. How many mortars? 13 �JH: There were three. HF: Three mortars? JH: There were three seven-inch guns. It took about seven men for each mortar to carry the ammunition and the mortar and all that. HF: Um hmm. JH: You had a thing to put over your back and the front and you put about three or four of them there mortar shells in the front and about three or four in the back. If something would have ever hit one them and they would have went off they would have blown you to kingdom come (laughter). HF: Were you in the mortars your entire time? JH: Yeah, I was in the mortars from the start to finish. HF: Start to finish? JH: But I carried a pistol, but that pistol wasn’t any good I’ll tell you. HF: (Laughter) It was a 38? JH: If you’re a non-com you got to carry a pistol, but it wasn’t much. HF: What was you opinion of the officer corps, the officers? JH: They were pretty well trained. We got most of them, what’s that think down there in Georgia? HF: Fort Benning? JH: We got most of the officer’s out of that down there, most of them were real young. HF: Um hmm, and did you have high opinions of them? JH: Yeah, most of them were well trained. There was no doubt about it. I only had trouble with one officer. HF: Um hmm. JH: One time they took us out about 3:00 in the morning and they was going to do a 50 mile march that day, 50 mile. It rained from the time we got up until we come back that night. We walked all day and half the night. I could see the lights from camp and I was wanting to get there 14 �and I wasn’t in step and that old officer come up beside me and said get in step. I didn’t pay him no damn mind. I was mad. I was wet and mad. I didn’t get in a step. He said I said get in step hut two, three, four. I didn’t pay any damn attention. He got me by the shirt and jerked me outside and jerked one of the other fellows out and said I want you to be a witness to this. "I gave him the command to get in step and he didn’t do it and I want you to be a witness to it." He was going to court marshal me for not listening to him. When we got into the camp that night he took me over to the office. I am going to show you the man that going to court marshal me. HF: Reference to a company roster book. JH: There is my commanding officer, the one I was with right there. HF: This is your commanding officer, Major Lawrence A. what was his last time? Laliberte? JH: Laliberte HF: Laliberte JH: Yeah. He took me over there to the office and he said he was going to court marshal me and the lieutenant said you ain’t court marshaling no damn body. HF: Um hmm. JH: That showed him that somebody ain’t getting mad and somebody not do what you tell them to do. He said you court marshaling no damn body. That’s exactly what he said to him. That is the last I ever heard of it. He was going to court marshal me for not obeying a direct order. He was court marshal me for not getting in step and hell I wasn’t going to do it. I was mad and wet and didn’t give a damn (laughs). HF: Other than that, was that the only confrontation with an officer? JH: Yeah, yeah. I never did like that officer and I tell you the truth. I had ever intention when we got overseas and got in battle I was going to shoot him. I did, I thought about it a long time. I said when we get overseas and I said I catch him out somewhere over there I am going to shoot him. I had ever intention of killing him, but I didn’t. HF: Um. Changing the gears a little bit, letters from home, did you receive those regularly or was post (interrupted)? JH: I didn’t get mail from home much because my mother didn’t write much. She was like me she didn’t have no education either. I got some, but didn’t get enough. I’ll tell you what I met a girl from Kentucky and there was not a week passed she didn’t write me a letter. HF: Oh really? 15 �JH: And she sent me lots of cakes and things. She sent me candy. I got stuff from her regular. When I got back to the United States I said I’m going to go see that lady. When the war was over with and I got back to Fort Bragg and on the way to home up here I called her. She was working in this here bomb plant over in Knoxville. I called her and said I just got out of the Army and I’m coming by to see you. She said I’d be as mad as hell if you didn’t she said. And I went up there to see her and I got home and seen my old fellows and I caught a bus and went to Knoxville, Tennessee and I caught a bus and went to the bomb plant and there two sergeants there guarding the gate. He talked to me a little bit and he said you see that bus over there. I said yeah and he said get your ass back on it and go back to Knoxville; you ain’t got no pass to get in here. I went back to Knoxville and I called her and told her they stopped me at the gate and wouldn’t let me in. She said I’ll fix it. She went somewhere there in the bomb plant and get me a pass and I went back and got it and I stayed there a week or two with her. HF: Oh really? JH: Yeah. HF: Describe the last portion of the war if you would as far as the conclusion. What were your last experiences in Europe before you came home? JH: I crossed the Elbe River. HF: The Elbe River? JH: You could see Berlin from it. It was twenty some miles from Berlin that’s what it was. HF: Did you ever go into Berlin after the fall of Berlin? JH: No they wouldn’t let us go. The Russians had no (unintelligible) with our president to take Berlin and they took Berlin. We didn’t have any part in it. HF: They held you in reserve twenty miles from there. JH: We got right there where we could see Berlin, but we never went in it. The Russians took it and had it. You know they had a hell of a time after it was over with getting some supplies into the parts we had. You remember we had to fly parts in. HF: The Berlin Airlift? JH: Yeah it was the only way to get in. They wouldn’t let us go on the ground or on the train. We had to fly it in. HF: When did you leave to come home to the United States? 16 �JH: Let’s see. When the war was over with it was in late May. HF: Late May? JH: The captain said I am going to let you go home first and I said there are fellows in here with children need to go home 1st and he said I’m going to let you go home because you didn’t miss a day of combat and I got to come home on that very thing. I was the 1st one to leave there to come home. HF: Um, okay. JH: And me a twenty year old and there was fellows in there thirty years old with kids. I thought that was odd. He said that’s my decision and you can do it. That fellow right there sent me home. HF: That Major Laliberte? JH: Yeah. HF: Where did you fly into or did you take a ship back? JH: I caught a ship back. HF: A ship back? JH: I got into about Paris and got into one of the boats that they had to carry supplies over; what do they call them things. HF: Little barges? JH: No those little ships only about 300 is all that could get on it and the ship I went over on there was about 15,000 of us on it. HF: Liberty ship? JH: Yeah, we come back on a Liberty ship. There were only about 300 of us on it, but the German submarines were still in the ocean and they were afraid to go across. They went back around England and around Scandinavia, and come around by Iceland. It took us forty days to come home dodging them submarines. HF: Forty days, wow. JH: I didn’t see land for forty days when I came back. I didn’t know where we at. They wouldn’t tell us where we were. As we come by the Statue of Liberty I said I know where I’m at now. They docked that thing and we came down that gangplank and the Salvation Army was down at the foot of that thing and they had boxes of milk in those little cartons. That was the first milk I’d seen since I’d left the United States. 17 �HF: I bet that made you happy? JH: Yeah, I’d drunk two or three of them if they’d give it to me, but they only gave me one. They took us to the Camp Shanks and we had to go in there and view movies for two weeks how to walk down the street and treat people decent. All we knew was if a man was on the street by God kill them over there. HF: So they tried to re-acclimate you? JH: Yeah they had to de, de what you want to call it? HF: To get you back used to? JH: Yeah being around humans. They said all you fellows know is how to kill somebody said we got to teach you how to treat people right on the street. Then we spent two weeks in the Camp Shanks, New York learning how to treat people and be kind to them and not try to kill them. There were some, I’ll tell you, we had some damn fellows in there that I believe would have done it. We had some Mexicans that went in there and killed one of them Germans for no reason at all. We was in some German camp and we took this town that evening and one man had a chicken coop outside that had some chickens in it and 1 of them boys said I’m going to kill them damn chickens and I’m going to cook me a chicken. He went down there and one of the Germans said nix, nix, nix you can’t get my chicken and he just shot the damn German and got him one of the chickens. That’s how bad he was. He did that. HF: Wow. JH: I wouldn’t do that, no sir. I wouldn’t kill anybody unnecessarily, but there were some of them that did. HF: How long after you got back to New York before you got to come back to North Carolina? JH: I was there two weeks debriefing us, that’s it. Yeah we had to walk down the stress and learn how to treat people and this, that, and the other for two weeks and go home and not kill somebody. That’s all we knew was to kill somebody. You see somebody and you kill them. HF: After the debriefing where did they send you? JH: I got to go to Fort Bragg. HF: You got to go to Fort Bragg. 18 �JH: Yeah, I was there four days and they gave me a forty day furlough, forty days, and I got to come home for forty days. That’s how I went up there to see that girl and stayed two weeks up there. HF: That was during your furlough? JH: Yeah. HF: Now how long were you in Fort Bragg before you were out of the service. JH: That was in June. I stayed there until almost Christmas day the following year because Japan wasn’t over with. I mean they were still fighting Japan and that war was still going and they were not letting anybody out. HF: So they held you in reserve? JH: Right. Until the war in Japan was over with you wasn’t going nowhere. I stayed at Fort Bragg and worked in induction and separation center and seen a lot of boys they were still drafting them coming in. I went and got some papers and I was going to send a bunch of them to Fort Bragg that was going to Japan and I walked down through Fort Bragg down there and there was a bunch of them sitting up against the building and guess who was sitting up against one of them buildings, C.P. Clark. You ever know C.P? There he set with a bunch going on the Oklahoma to Japan. I talked to him and I said C.P. what are you doing down here. He said hell they fixing to send me to Japan. C.P Clark was married and had children. He was sitting up there against the building and I got to see C.P. there. He said what are you doing here? I said I was over there and I got to come back and I am here working in the induction and separation center. HF: What year were out of the Army? JH: ’45. HF: ’45, you were out the same year? JH: December of ’45 is when I got out. See the war in Japan quit in about September or October. HF: Uh huh, so you had the last three or four months there? JH: I had enough points and everything to get out. HF: I have a few closing questions real quick. I was going to ask you how did your experiences in the Army during the war shape your life as far as after the war on to the present day? JH: Well, in the war and during the war you had to protect yourself. There wasn’t anybody to protect you there. If you was stopped somewhere you dug a foxhole. 19 �HF: How does that shape you today and throughout your life? JH: Learn how to listen and do what you’re told. HF: Do what you’re told, um hmm? JH: Yeah when they disciplined you, you learned a lesson from it. HF: Do you ever have any recurrent memories from the war and how often? JH: I used to, but I don’t know more. HF: No more. How often do you think about it? JH: All the time. HF: All the time? JH: Because somebody I was close to got killed. You get close to somebody they're going to get killed. HF: Um hmm. JH: That’s the bad part of it. HF: Yeah. JH: Anyway we went through that thing and done the best we could do. You killed everybody you could and I didn’t like that. It was kill or get killed. I want to show you something here. HF: This is a reference to a memoir. JH: There is a piece in this book about me. I believe it’s on page 64. I want you to read it. HF: The highlighted portion? JH: Yeah, some of it. HF: I am going to read the highlighted portion of this book in reference to the interviewee: “Alpha Company was coming in to replace us and we were moving back to our old positions in the Hurtgen Forest to regroup. In the meantime Herschel McIntosh, and John Helms (the interviewee), were having a field day picking off the Germans trying to get out of the way that evening. McIntosh was from Kentucky and Helms was from North Carolina. They both were from the 2nd platoon. Forty years later we three fought this battle all over again at an 83rd 20 �division reunion” from the book in reference to the interviewee, John Helms. So you picked them off huh (laughing). JH: By God you had to or they would get you and I got a lot of them. Back then I was 18 and I had 20/20 eyesight and didn’t have no trouble seeing them for a mile. You could that German rifle that M1 and you could shoot them from a mile and I done it. HF: You were using a M1 Garand? JH: Yeah. HF: What do you think of that weapon system? JH: The M1 was a good rifle. The only thing about it is if you got any dirt in it, it would jam on you sometimes and you had to keep it clean. You couldn’t let it go. You had a rifle and you had to clean it regular. That was your best friend. You needed it if you got out. If it didn’t suit you… you didn’t have anything. HF: You were in A Company? Was that “Able” Company? JH: No, I was in F Company. HF: Uh huh. Was that you called it, Able Company and Fox Company? JH: All right. HF: So I used a modern reference when I said Alpha? I apologize on that one, but um, do you have any other closing remarks you would like to say on the events of the war or how they have affected you personally just throughout your life? JH: It affected me a lot when it was 1st over with until you finally outlive it kind of. HF: So you’ve learned to cope with it over the years? JH: Well, I don’t think about it a whole lot. Let me show you something (searching through book). HF: Once again I appreciate you bringing all of these reference materials. JH: You want to look through them? You can keep them and look through them. HF: Yes sir, I would appreciate that. I would love to do that. JH: I can’t believe it I lost that picture. There is what I wanted to show you. HF: Is that a picture of you? 21 �JH: That’s when I first went in. HF: Oh really, there you are. JH: That’s what I looked like when I went in. That’s me and Gerald. You know Gerald? HF: I never knew Gerald. JH: He knew him [pointing to my father] and R.G. that married my sister was there. HF: Is there anything else you would like to say in closing the interview, maybe anybody else who would be studying the war, the professors or the students who will be studying. JH: There is a whole lot, but at the moment it’s hard to do it ain’t it. HF: Is there anything that stands out in particular, anything you would like to say. JH: (Long pause) Well, the war was hard to get over when you come back. It affected you. There is no doubt about it. All that happened to me and so many people it is unreal. I looked pretty young there didn’t I? HF: Yeah. Well if that’s all sir, I really appreciate you doing this and this will conclude the official part of our interview now. JH: If you read that you may want to put some of that down there. HF: Yes sir I will make a reference of all of the documents you brought us today. That’s really good. I appreciate it sir and thank you again. JH: I just think about all of this a lot. HF: We will conclude the interview. JH: I went to Fort Bragg to start with and then I went to Camp Atterbury, Indiana, I went from Camp Atterbury to the desert for three months and I went from the desert back to Camp Breckinridge, Kentucky. I went from Camp Breckinridge, Kentucky to New York. I didn’t know where I was going. You know when we left Camp Atterbury they put us on a train and they didn’t tell us where we was going and the next thing I knew we was in Arkansas. I said what in the world are we doing in Arkansas? First thing I know we was in Oklahoma and about two, three, or four days later we landed in New York getting on a ship going to Europe. They didn’t want anybody to know where we were a going when we left Fort Bragg on a train going to Arkansas. They didn’t want the enemy to know where we were going. They kept everything a secret. 22 �HF: Well, thank you very much sir. We will conclude the official part of the interview now. 23 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8a24518c6f32c8e4719b850c9a4270f3.mp3 23fe480844602cc0d8339833504dc857 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Helms, John Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Fletcher, Harrison Interview Date 10/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43:18 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Drexel, World War Two, Army, Camp Atterbury, Fort Breckinridge, England, Normandy, D-Day, infantry, Switzerland, Battle of the Bulge, Purple Heart, Cherbourg, France, Germany, Rhine River , shrapnel, Belgium, Elbe River, Berlin Airlift, Camp Shanks Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Helms, 14 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 Helms, John Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Harrison Fletcher interviews John Helms who served in the United States Army during World War II. He joined the military right out of high school because he was living in poverty in the United States, and he saw it as the only way to make money. He served in the 83rd Infantry Division, and was in the front lines the entire time he served in Europe. He walked straight through France and Germany, and said he was never transported anywhere. He fought in both the Normandy landings and the Battle of the Bulge. He was wounded four times, but says that morale among the American soldiers was high. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Helms, John Fletcher, Harrison Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 23 pages Language A language of the resource English 83rd Infantry Division Battle of the Bulge Cherbourg Elbe River Normany landing Rhine River sergeant Southampton https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2b041b934c34a4a88cfba4daad4f05dc.pdf f5d36f3d3e5497a43caebfff47eba299 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Conley Call North Wilkesboro, North Carolina 14 October 2011 MC: Matt Call CC: Conley Call MC: Today is October 14, 2011. I am at the home of Conley Call in North Wilkesboro, North Carolina. Conley Call is my grandfather and I will be interviewing him today. What is your date of birth? CC: August 29th, 1931 MC: What war or branch of service were you in? CC: I was in the Army National Guard during the Korean War. MC: What was your rank? CC: I enlisted as a recruit and later after four years got a commission and retired as a colonel. MC: Okay, where were you living at the time you enlisted? CC: I was living here on Fair Plains Road. MC: Right where we are now, pretty much. What made you want to join? CC: Well I was just finishing up my sophomore in high school, I was 17 years old and several of us were talking about it and I had to get my parents to sign because I wasn't 18 until later that year. And there were things appearing in the newspaper and the Russians had up the iron curtain or the wall and you could just see that maybe war was going to come. So quite a few of my high school, I'd say half a dozen, we enlisted in the National Guard, some of them went on and as soon as they graduated high school went into the Air Force or the U.S Army. But I was in the guard, there wasn't any draft, and they had just started a few months after I enlisted but I knew at 17, I was going to have to go and just in the prime status, and good health, so I went ahead and joined and started training. MC: Why did you decide to join the National Guard rather than any other service? CC: Well, I didn't like the army or the military as a career. I wanted to get married later and I liked the citizen soldier concept the best, where we spend most of our time in our civilian lives doing whatever and go to war, and that's the way America has always fought their wars. 1 �MC: We've learned a lot about citizen soldier warfare. Do you recall your first when you joined? CC: Yes, I can. I had a sergeant named Looney White, who had been in World War One, and was still in the guard. We were assigned to him immediately to learn to wear our uniform, and we had to have our uniform altered to make it fit us, for a small person. I weighed about 110 pounds. We also started to do dismounted drill as our first thing. They started teaching and went to recruit later that year but it was different but you knew some of the guys in the unit. Quite a few of them had been in World War Two and a few of them had been in World War One and we had some good NCOs (non-commissioned officers) and officers who had experience so that was my philosophy in doing that. I could go on to school or get married or whatever and still stay in the guard and pull my military. MC: How old were you when you joined? CC: Seventeen. MC: Seventeen. CC: I would have been 18. I joined in May. 2 May, '49. And I was 18 years old on 29 of August that year. So I had to get my parents to sign my papers to allow me to join. MC: Were you excited? CC: Well kind of, it was different and we always drilled one night a week and then we had weekend drills and campouts and so forth, but you met some new people, some different people and I took it very serious that some of these veterans of World War One and World War Two could tell you about what it was like and so it was a learning experience and I went there to learn and do the very best I could. They started up the draft shortly there after, I don’t remember exactly. I was classified 1D, that means I was 1A physically, but I was in the reserve or National Guard. By the way you had to be in both. You had to be trained in that day or time as if you were on active duty so you had to go on and fulfill your MOS, Military Occupation Specialty. The unit was an artillery unit and I learned the enlisted side of the artillery the 105 Howitzer Toad, and they shoot about 13,000 meters and that's a pretty good distance but you had to be very accurate and so they amend, but that was later for me, I didn’t start out doing. I started doing menial things like TP and guard duty and you know, things like that. They don’t start training you on your specialty. MC: Did you ever go overseas? CC: No MC: You didn't? 2 �CC: I went overseas later to visit Guard units. I went once to Ecuador and I went once to Germany and Czechoslovakia to visit Guard units but that was way later when I was in another capacity but I didn’t fight in any war. MC: Can you tell me some of your most memorable experiences in the National Guard? CC: Well, in 1951, we were having a summer camp in Fort Braxton, North Carolina. Summer camps were about two or three weeks and I was selected the most outstanding soldier of the year for the battalion. It was the fact that I was on a howitzer, the number two man. When the howitzer fired you immediately looked in the tube of the howitzer to see if that shell had gone out and you would say, "Number two has fired, sir!” and I had on aphesis type gloves because the brass that come out of there had a...that didn't go out, and they were hot and just the way I carried out my job, I was singled out and got accommodations. Then later that year, I want to say, probably June of 1952, this was in May, I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina on active duty with regular soldier and went to infantry leadership school and they were basically training us to be MCOs and to go to Korea. They were short of a lot of leadership and of course I graduated number fourth or fifth, I think fourth. And that was to teach us how to be…they taught us dismounted drills, methods of instruction, how to teach classes, and how to lead people, and I really enjoyed that and much of the active duty while I was there. My uncle, Jay Call, Gracie's first husband was drafted in service, and several people I knew, and I sort of helped them out a little bit because I was already there and showed them the ropes a little bit. Then I took a extension course from Fort Riley, Kansas, called a ten series, and it was sort of basic military, and I took it by mail, and when I finished and finished the leadership school and then finished local training that they put us through, the officers interviewed me and recommended me for commission. I had been in the guard almost four years at that time and that was October of 1953, and I was commissioned as second lieutenant by an act of Congress. Federally you had to be qualified to be a second lieutenant in the active military, not just in the National Guard and that meant I had to go to prepare myself for an officer's MOS, Military Occupational Specialty. So I went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and probably January of 1954 and returned to my home station after about seven months after about seven months in July of 1954 and I really enjoyed that. It’s a lot of trigonometry and you had to work at every position in the military and the artillery. Fort Sill, Oklahoma was the artillery guided missile school of the world, and there were 28 nations represented there. I met a lot of Korean officers that we had sent from Korea to school, and I was elected class leader of '88. Lieutenant and one captain, and for the whole six months, and I moved my wife and two children out after about a month and they came and lived with us in Oklahoma. Oklahoma was kind of different, geographically and all and it dust storms out there, but I enjoyed it very much, and thoroughly enjoyed the education I got. I worked a little as a boy in survey with an engineer here in the community named Sam Mitchell. And so in the artillery you did a lot of survey. You had to know where your piece is and then you had to know how far it can shoot and control a lot of that or you will get friendly fire. You are always behind the infantry. 3 �And I thoroughly enjoyed that. As soon as I came home I was made safety officer for our entire battalion, now we had other officers that had trained in World War Two and some had been distilled before me but they always used the latest graduate, the one that up to date in the latest rules and everything and I stayed safety officer for a year or two, and then as would happen, the army goes through reorganization and you had two to three times the Army. You have the regular army, so many standing soldiers, and then you have the Army Reserve, and then you have the National Guard. And altogether that makes your defense force and in this particular war we're having in war and over in there we use more National Guard by far then we have regular troops that's called up unit after unit. The unit here that I used to command has been over there three or four times. I mean the army was cut back and was so small it has to use its reserves. MC: Did you spend your time when you were enlisted as just National Guard or did you have another career also the same time? CC: Yes, I had started in 1946 working part time at a local furniture company. MC: American Drew? CC: It was just American Furniture at that time, there wasn't any Drew. And then later it became American Drew. We bought a burnt down furniture factory and started Drew furniture and then they later merged together. And I was in a management training program there and in fact, the National Guard and ready men helped me to advance and improve myself in my civilian job. I also had a part time job as a fireman that I started in 1946, which I rose to chief, and that helped me and anytime you can learn and learn how to manage people, but I really had a wonderful time at the furniture, in the furniture business, and I rose and retired as, after 53 years, with a lot of experience and I was senior vice president of distribution and purchasing and at times as we were buying companies. I was even head of the company for a while. MC: Did you meet any long time friends while you were in? CC: Yes, I met friends in the National Guard that I know until this day. I'm 80 years old and they just become someone you can trust and someone that can trust you and you started out sleeping in a puck tent and living close together and you learn to make friends pretty quick who you can trust and then that goes right along in the commission officer's rank. You're doing a little bit different but I had a retired SCI, retired highway patrol men, which had been in World War Two and a lot of friends that I still know today. I still like to know and in fact, one of those men that I sent to Fort Benton and commissioned during that time later joined Special Forces and went to Vietnam. He came back to visit a year or so ago he was traveling across the United States on a motorcycle. In fact, he sent us an email to your home, where he was traveling; he always travelled across the United States and Canada just visiting friends he had met in the military. He sent me a travel log of that, and I enjoyed that. But while he was in Vietnam he sent me a postcard and this happened to be 1969, he was in Vietnam and I was of course in the Guard as a 4 �civilian but doing my duty as required and he sent me a postcard or Christmas card and it showed his hut and his Vietnam counterpart. He told me on this card, he had taken over 1000 rounds over the last 24 hours, but he had saw my name in the Army Times, I had just been promoted to major and all military promotions go to the Army Times, or did. I'm not sure they do today or not. But he'd read where I was promoted to major, and at the time he was a lieutenant and he said, "Congratulations, I wish you were here to give me some advice." I had been his commanding officer for two or three years and it's someone you just don’t forget. In the ‘60s when I commanded the local guard unit and then in the late ‘60s commanded the battalion for a short time, headquartered in Hickory. You meet a lot of younger people, just out of college or in college, just out of high school, and the type of training give them or don’t give them has a lot of difference whether or not they survive, if they go into battle and how to take care of themselves. During the ‘60s I also taught at Fort Bragg two summers and one winter in OCS. They had OCS at Fort Bragg, officer candidate school. I was taught weapons down there and then in the earlier days I was a drill instructor at Fort McClellan, Alabama for a about a couple of summers down there. And I enjoyed that. Don't know that you ever knew a local man in the school system here, named Jack Brame, coach Brame. MC: I don't think I did. CC: Well, he spent many years at Wilkes Central. And he just in the last few years, he lost a leg to diabetes. But he's a retired schoolteacher. Well, when I was training on active duty he was my instructor. But Jack Brame had gone to Davidson on a football scholarship at Davidson College and then went on in the army and he was my instructor. He left after he pulled his two years, he went to Appalachian and was assistant coach up there working on his masters. And of course, I moved up, got a commission and the next time I meet him he is one of my lieutenants and we have been best friends throughout the years and I had several school teachers or former school teachers that I was involved in and one of them was assistant postmaster who's living today, he's 90, Bill Thomas. He's been a pilot over the years in World War Two. I was ten years old when World War Two broke out and of course I was 18 years old when the Korean War broke out, June 25, 1950. I was not old enough until they I was almost too old because they didn't start drafting until almost that time. Quite an experience later after I got out of the guard after 23 years and went to the Army Reserve and I was with a unit called the 87th Mover Command and it was a reserve unit. At that time they had pulled now in Alabama, where they conduct all the war games between the active and the reserve and I got to go up to Germany and all over South America, I went to nearly every country in South America. And then the last thing I did of any consequence, I can't tell you the year, but we had this general down in Panama called General Noriega and he was really big in drugs and all the things and leading Panama the wrong way and we were interested in invading Panama and we did. But they got a group of us reserve officers and a few active officers and we went to South America, Central America, and visited every country and it was a secret mission at the time, but our main object was to find out what the people would think when America invaded Panama to 5 �check for Noriega. You know countries don't like you to be in their country regardless of whether you're helping or not and we get criticized for that as America but if we hadn't done it there'd be a tremendous amount of countries who wouldn't be free today. MC: So you could say your overall experience with the National Guard was a good one? CC: Absolutely, I recommended it to quite a few people and the opportunity to go to a school, the opportunity to grow managing people, leading people, whether it enhances, I said my ability to run a fire department or to run departments in a furniture company, all that training that you received to work one place or work another. It was just an outstanding and I look back on it with great anticipation and particularly the friends you made, all the way up to the governor or this sort of thing. The governor of the state commissioned you in the National Guard, but Congress commissioned you into the reserves. You had to have a double commission. You had to have the specs and qualification as if you were in the regular army by a certain time they give you to earn your training, but it enriched my life and I contributed something to the communities in which we live. We did a lot of things in service in the community. During the ‘60s there was a lot of unrest in Winston-Salem and Greensboro. Riots, they had riots and my battalion was called on active duty to go for two or three weeks at a time and go help quell those riots and quell the unrest, where the shootings and breaking in stores and what have you. Particularly one of those times was when Dr. King was killed. Seemed like that was around 1968 but I'm not sure exactly the day of his death. There was a lot of unrest because of that and we went to Greensboro and stayed about a week in the coliseum there while the GGO (Greater Greensboro Open) was going on and called out by the governor. The governor can call the National Guard and use them any way he sees or she sees. We have a lady governor now, she sees to protect the citizens and help out in hurricanes and all of that. So the guard does a lot of work. Now they also can be called by the president to go and fight a war, and they are, I feel like a little more serviceable by helping the state and the nation by being in the Army Reserve or National Guard that way then you would be if you were just in the regular army. MC: Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the military in general? CC: Yes, first, war is hell. It’s terrible. And I don't know anybody that wants war. Now the citizen soldier concept is what America has always had until this period of time we have the largest standing order army we've had in a long time. But I don't like doing away with the draft and I learned this in the National Guard by getting filler troops in that had been drafted and some had not. Here's what you have in the army today. You have people who in most cases are in the lower bracket in the ability and training because the well to do trained person that's going graduate from college and go on to better themselves, they're not going to take four years out to serve in the army and they're not going to volunteer. So when you did away with the draft, the draft supposedly called all of us to go serve for a certain length of time and when you did away with the draft it lowered. We've got a very high quality army today but some of that is because we've had recessions and that's where people can 6 �get a job. There's a lot of political sides too it, I kind of like the concept that Switzerland has always had, and they've never been in a war. In Switzerland they used to go into the military and stay about a year and then you go home and take your military equipment home with you, your weapon and so forth and then you're on call until you age out. MC: Okay CC: And they've stayed neutral all of these years that I've been involved in a war. If I had lost a leg or the other, and I was using a wooden leg or something, I think I’d still go in the military. Because we have the concept of womanhood today, I think they ought to serve to. And the more you learn about, as I know it, in World War Two, the United States had to go to war. We had any choice. Somebody jumped on us. In World War Two, we know about Pearl Harbor and we know we had to go to war. I mean it wasn't any question. We'd be taken over by the Japanese and the Germans and so forth. Now other than that, we should’ve not have been in Vietnam, and probably, I'm not going say this as emphatically, we shouldn't have been in Korea but definitely not in Vietnam and we shouldn't be in Iraq or any of these places now. MC: We spend so much money. CC: Well, it’s the money and the young lives you're wasting and all. And, only by having some experience of your own can you really know what you're talking about to say no. MC: Yes. CC: During the Korean war and the Vietnam War, people went to Canada and got away from the war and didn't go and I'd rather they stay here and fight the system then run away from the system MC: Yes. CC: Definitely, you take anybody who's had any experience in the military knows that most of the time it's been industrial complex or the political context is why we go to war, its because they jumped on us. And the French fought in Vietnam for 40-50 years, never won, and other nations before them. Wars have been going on there since the countries were born. And we didn't win and they're now fairly merged together again as a country. But we're buying allot of cars and a lot of military stuff from Korea and Vietnam that we used to blow up. MC: Yes. CC: War is Hell. And I don't know of anybody that really, that knows what they're talking about that really believes in war. Now if somebody jumps on us like Pearl Harbor or something you've got of protect yourself and that sort of thing, but we hadn't had that since I was ten years old. Most of these things are political. MC: Well I think that's all the questions I have for you. Is there anything you'd like to add for this interview? 7 �CC: I appreciate you asking me to make a few comments. I have thoroughly enjoyed the service in the community and in the nation, and years that I've done. I've made a lot of friends and I've learned enough to be a good citizen, about war, I think. And know by having had some training you can read the newspaper or watch television and you know a little bit about what’s going on and can make a decision in voting. Its very important that we spend some time studying our government and war is a big part of what we're spending our dollars, and so we sure ought to. The eight years that President Bush was in there, and the two years that President Obama has been in, they don’t put any of that war expenses in the budget. They're using millions on adhoc things and it’s bigger than the budget. Our civilians haven't managed it well in most cases, so wasteful. Wasteful, even if you need so much, so many men and so much service, they still waste an awful lot because so much is thrown at it. Of course we waste some everywhere else too, but I appreciate you asking me to make some comments. MC: Thank you very much for speaking with me today. CC: Yes, glad to do it. MC: Like I said at the beginning of the interview, this is October 14 2011 and this is Conley Call of North Wilkesboro. My name is Matthew Call and this interview is for American Military History at Appalachian State University. CC: Thank you. 8 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1998a41ebc7df5349a35c295d5304ac8.mp3 c66cdb32460e8fbeb09edd3b3bd22c8c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Call, Conley Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Call, Matt Interview Date 10/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:12 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag North Wilkesboro, Wilkes County, Army National Guard, Korean War, Ecuador, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Fort Braxton, Fort Jackson, Fort Sill, American Furniture Company, Army Times, Fort Bragg Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Conley Call, 14 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 Call, Conley Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Korean War Conley Call, Army National Guard, was born August 29, 1931. He discusses his reasons for joining the military as well as several personal anecdotes during training. He also discusses how his military experience influenced his thoughts on war. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Call, Conley Call, Matt Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 8 pages Language A language of the resource English Army National Guard citizen soldier warfare colonel Conley Call Fort Braxton iron curtain Korean War https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5a29acf22530bb2ea808331ee3a992a7.pdf d2ceb4999e13cd9f7daf277ec095c0f9 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Greg Boyd Kings Mountain, North Carolina 16 October 2011 JB: Justin Boyd GB: Greg Boyd JB: Today is October 16th, 2011 and my name is Justin Boyd. I will be interviewing my dad Greg Boyd for an oral history project for my American Military History Class at Appalachian State University. I’m conducting this interview at our home in Kings Mountain, North Carolina. JB: First let’s start off by putting information together about what service were you in and how old were you when you joined? GB: I joined the armory when I was 17 in 1978. JB: What did you go in as? GB: I enlisted as an E-2. JB: E-2. Where did you go to basic training? GB: Basic training was at Fort Dix, New Jersey. JB: Did you have to wait while you were at basic, or, did you have to wait before you shipped off to basic training for any extended period of time. GB: About two weeks. JB: I know that when I enlisted I had to wait about four months, no, take that back, I waited 7 months before I shipped off to basic training. Why did you decide to enlist? GB: Where I grew up, there weren’t many job opportunities, couldn’t afford college, so it was the best alternative at the time. JB: What was your MOS when you joined? GB: I was a 63B1P. JB: Which is what? GB: Wheeled vehicle power generator mechanic, parachute badge qualified. JB: Is that, did you keep that same job the whole, the whole time you were in? 1 �GB: I made it to 63B4 and then also as a secondary as 62B4 which is heavy equipment mechanic. JB: So basically the same thing just more in depth? GB: No, “63” are wheeled vehicles, “64” is engine air type equipment like bulldozers and scrapers, and graders, and all trucks, things like that. JB: You enlisted active duty right? GB: Yes. JB: How long were you in active duty? GB: Four and a half years, I extended for six months for a tour in the Sinai Desert, with multinational force and observes. JB: What year were you deployed? What years I should say. GB: 1982. JB: It was just 1982? GB: Yes, part of 1982 and part of 1983. JB: What were the months from? GB: Aw shoot I don’t remember, let me think, I believe…I don’t recall, I don’t recall. JB: Was it hot or cold when you were over there? GB: Oh, it was hot over there, hot in the Sinai. It only rained only one time for about five seconds for six months. JB: Exactly where is the Sinai Desert? GB: It’s at the southern tip of the Sinai Peninsula. JB: Was that part of any war, or were you just deployed there for… GB: Well it was in accordance with Camp David Accords when the Israelis and the Egyptians, came to terms on returning the Sinai Desert to the Egyptians. JB: Go ahead and establish how long were you in the military altogether? GB: I was in the Army and Army National Guard for 20 years and three months. JB: And you switched to National Guard after four and a half years of active duty. 2 �GB: Yes JB: Which would have been 1967? GB: No. JB: ‘68? GB: No, I went in in ‘78. JB: Oh ‘78. GB: And then switched by 1984. JB: Ok. Let’s back up a little bit, what were you doing just before you joined the armed forces? Were you working, or obviously were working, were you married, still single? GB: Was in high school, I was single, but I was also working as part of a Distributive Education Clubs of America, which is DECA, an organization at a local hardware store. JB: Didn’t you meet mom because of the military? GB: Yea we, your mom and I met in the National Guard in Kings Mountain. JB: What year was that? GB: 1987, 1987 JB: 1987? What year did yaw get married? (Mom) 1989 GB: 1989, April 22. JB: Yaw were both still in the military at, both still in the Army National Guard at that time? GB: Yes. JB: Which wars, if any did you serve in? GB: During my time in? JB: Yes. GB: I think Grenada was the only war, only actual conflict, and I was not involved in Grenada, but I was in the Guard. JB: So you… 3 �GB: And then Desert Storm came up and we weren’t, I did not mobilize Desert Storm either. JB: So you weren’t deployed in either of them? GB: No. JB: But for both of them you were still with the National Guard unit in Kings Mountain? GB: Yes. JB: Which is what unit? GB: It was the 505th Engineers, Company B of the 505th Engineers. JB: Okay. During your time in the military, what kind of specialized training did you receive, like airborne school, air assault school, any specialty schools? GB: I went to jump school. JB: Airborne School? GB: Yes. JB: When? GB: In, I actually graduated from school on Thanksgiving Day in 1978. JB: Was it easy or hard? GB: It was hard I was there five weeks instead of three. JB: Why? GB: I couldn’t do the chin-ups. JB: You couldn’t do the chin ups? GB: Yea got recycled twice. JB: How many chin ups did you have to do? GB: I think seven. JB: Seven in any given amount of time, or just seven? GB: No just seven. JB: When did you go to PLDC? 4 �GB: I believe PLDC would’ve been, about 1987 or ‘88. JB: And just to clarify, what kind of school is that? GB: That is the primary leadership development course. JB: For what? GB: That was for my promotion to E5, and that was at Asheville, North Carolina. JB: Was it like a, an actual military place, like a base that you went to in Asheville, or was it.. GB: Well it’s, it’s an actual military school sponsored by the state of north Carolina, all the requirements, are military have satisfied pt test, and a couple other things. JB: And did you ever go to ANOC? GB: Yea I went to PLDC, BNOC, and ANOC, phase 1 and phase 2. JB: What is BNOC? GB: Basic NCO course. JB: Was that part of the same thing as the E school. GB: No that was for E6. JB: E6? And when did you go there? GB: Eh probably shoot, ‘91, ‘92 JB: And what is ANOC? GB: ANOC was advanced NCO school for E7, and that would’ve been about 1995. JB: So you got E7 in 1995? GB: Eh probably ‘95 or ‘96 JB: Did you, did you ever serve in any non-combative oversea deployments? GB: Yea, I went to Ecuador, and Honduras. JB: When did you go to Ecuador? GB: In early, it would’ve been late 80’s wouldn’t it (asking wife)? (mom) Where? 5 �GB: Ecuador. (mom) It was actually when mawmaw had her surgery, which would have been, Justin was born in 91, it would’ve been in around March of 1992? GB: Yea been in ‘92, and JB: Was it, was this when you were in the National Guard? GB: Yes. JB: Obviously. GB: Yes, well it was humanitarian nation a village had been cut off from society by a mudslide; we went in and had to cut a road from Keto to the village. JB: Was it successful? GB: Yes, I believe it took more than one rotation; it probably took two or three rotations to complete it. JB: How long were you there? GB: I was there three weeks. JB: Three weeks in Honduras? GB: Two weeks in Honduras, three in Ecuador JB: Ok. What was the weather like while yaw were down there in Ecuador? Like What part of the year was it? GB: It rained a little bit, but it wasn’t too bad. JB: From the mudslides? GB: Yea JB: That’s what caused the mudslides. GB: Well the mudslides actually happened long before we got there. JB: But, the weather wasn’t too bad once yaw got there, like… GB: Nah, it probably rained a couple times. JB: On, once yaw started, once yaw started clearing away the mudslides and stuff. GB: Nah we actually cut a new road, the mudslide road was, 6 �JB: Okay. GB: Given up. JB: So the weather didn’t really make… GB: No. JB: Make yaw stay there longer? GB: We had bulldozers going in the river pushing rock out to go to the rock crusher, so it wasn’t real bad. JB: How long were you in Honduras? GB: Two weeks. JB: At the same time? GB: No it was later, it was probably in ‘93, ‘94 JB: What did yaw have to do there? GB: We were part of a US effort to build what was that an updated road, almost a highway, within Honduras. JB: A highway? GB: Yes, it wasn’t really a dirt road, it was kind of improved, it was an improved surface road. JB: So like gravel? GB: Probably packed gravel. JB: Sort of like what we have out there on the greenway trail? GB: Yes. JB: I know that from when I went down to Honduras a couple years ago, it was very humid. We went down in the middle of the summertime, so I guess technically there it was, well let’s see is Honduras above the equator or below? GB: Below. JB: So technically it would have been the rainy season I guess there, but it only rained like one day, but it was very humid, was it humid while you were there? GB: Yes, it was hot and humid. 7 �JB: How hot? GB: Probably in the middle 90’s, high 90’s all the time. JB: And high, very high humidity? GB: Yes. JB: What about any stateside deployments? GB: We had one to Florida for hurricane relief, and… JB: Which hurricane? GB: That would’ve been Fran, I believe. JB: What year was that? GB: Shoot, I don’t remember. JB: Before I was born? GB: You can Google that. JB: Before I was born? GB: No, you can Google that. JB: All right. GB: We had the one there hurricane Hugo we got deployed for, we got deployed for a bunch of wild fires also up in the mountains of North Carolina. JB: Were you in North Carolina for the Hugo relief? GB: Oh, yes. Yes, we were staying over in Mecklenburg County most of the time. Mother: That was September of ’89 GB: We also had about three deployments to San Diego, California for border type missions two were fence related and one was actually a road up into brown mountain, made it easier for the border patrol to go up into the mountains and bring the illegal’s back down. JB: Where is Brown Mountain at? GB: In Southern California. JB: So it’s right on the border with Mexico? 8 �GB: Yes, it actually close to Tijuana. JB: Were they having a lot of problems down there, or was this, they were just putting the fence up sort of? GB: No, they’ve always had problems. They’ve got probably a couple hundred border patrol officers working in that region. JB: How big is the region? Just all around the mountain? GB: I’ll give you an example they’ve got a greyhound bus that they’ve beefed up just a little bit to, to go up in the mountain to bring them down a busload at a time. JB: Sheesh GB: One of the trips to San Diego was to build a sewer line. The people of Tijuana had their raw sewage coming into the United States so we built a diversion culvert, to take it back to Mexico to a waste treatment plant that was, I think built by the US. So what we were doing was rerouting their raw sewage back to them. JB: Ha-ha-ha (chuckling) Tell me about a couple of your most memorable ex, memorable experiences throughout your whole career in the military. GB: FTX’s were always memorable, I had some good experiences it we-, in the field with the platoon and the guys. JB: Is that when you with the Guard unit or during some kind of training? GB: With the Guard. JB: Where did yaw go on yaws FTX’s? GB: We went to Fort Jackson, we went to Fort Bragg, we went to Camp Butner, then Fort Pickett. JB: Virginia? GB: Yes, places not too far away, but we got to travel a little bit. JB: Did yaw go on about one a year? GB: Yes, we probably went on one FTX a year, and one summer camp a year. JB: Summer camp being AT? GB: Yes. 9 �JB: Two weeks? GB: Yes, the most memorable AT was the one during the day when we were getting on Fort Bragg it was 80 degrees during the day, but that night it snowed. JB: Ha-ha. GB: First Sergeant Ellis came out of his tent that morning and he said “I don’t care what color it is, if it will keep you warm, put it on.” JB: Ha-ha. GB: It was like 35 degrees that morning. JB: Was this during the summer time? GB: Yea, right on the verge, like early spring. JB: So sometime around March, April? GB: Yes. JB: And it snowed in Fort Bragg down there in Fayetteville? GB: Yes. JB: When I was in Fort Bragg this summer, it was 104 degrees every day. GB: Man oh man, it can get hot. JB: When you were on your deployments, either in state or in Honduras or where ever you were, were you able to, and how did you stay in touch with your family? GB: In the Sinai they actually installed a satellite station for us to make calls, through the nearest military installation to where we were calling, in my case it was through Fort Bragg to Fort Benjamin Harrison, then to my hometown in Indiana. JB: Which was where? GB: Jasonville, Indiana. JB: Is that where your parents lived? GB: Yes. JB: Or what about all the rest of your family? GB: Oh they all lived up there at that time. 10 �JB: Ok. All in Jasonville? GB: Yes. Any place else other than the Sinai, we just used a standard phone that was provided by the unit. JB: Like a sat phone? GB: No, it was an actual landline. JB: What about when you were in Honduras, and Ecuador and stuff? GB: I don’t remember making any calls in Honduras or Ecuador. JB: And you were only there for a couple weeks though. GB: Yes. JB: What about stateside? GB: What do you mean? JB: Were you able to contact your family stuff when you were in Florida or California or? GB: Oh yes, in San Diego I just used a pay phone. I had a calling card. JB: Ha-ha they had payphones back then? (jokingly) GB: Yes. JB: Ha-ha did you have cell phones back then? GB: No, I didn’t. JB: What about email? GB: Cell phones were still as big as suitcases back then. I didn’t have any email either. JB: All right so when did you finally retire out of the Guard? GB: In 1998. JB: 1998? What all went down? Were you, did you, do you miss it at all? GB: Well yes, but the guys that the unit gave me several gifts. One of them was actually a pretty nice golf club. Your mom through me a party and a fish fry, and had several people at the house from the unit. It was real nice. JB: Do you miss it at all? 11 �GB: I miss the guys. JB: You don’t miss being actually in the Guard though? GB: Well, not really, no. I figured I could contribute to my retirement better working than I could in the Guard. JB: Well, I believe that about sums it up thank you for time dad. I hope I could bring back some good memories. GB: You’re welcome. 12 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e81108a567d8855fddf7cdf5529692ff.mp3 4b822763fe03c1297ee75eb6370786ad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Boyd, Greg Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Boyd, Justin Interview Date 10/16/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 16:07 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Army, Fort Dix, mechanic, Sinai Desert, Camp David Accords, Army National Guard, 505th Engineers National Guard Unit, Ecuador, Honduras, Mexico, Fort Bragg, Fort Butner, Fort Pickett, Sinai Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Greg Boyd, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource United States Veterans Boyd, Greg National Guard United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Greg Boyd, Army and Army National Guard, was born in 1961 and joined the armory at age 17 as an E-2. He discusses meeting his wife while in service, family, training, and deployments to Honduras and Ecuador as well as domestic deployments. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boyd, Greg Boyd, Justin Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English Airborne School Army National Guard Ecuador Fort Dix Honduras Sinai Desert https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d486621eed2d8e481da1f550e65d82ff.pdf b2ddaa52638810e5b661550f8eda698a PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Jeremy Gilley Siler City, North Carolina 24 September 2011 JG: Jeremy Gilley JB: Jim Brewer JG: It is September 24, I'm here with Mr. Jim Brewer and I'm going to ask him a few questions. Mr. Brewer where were you born and raised at? JB: Born in Chatham County, Siler City, North Carolina. JG: When was that? JB: December 1936. JG: Did you have a history of military service in your family? JB: No, I did not. JG: Why and when did you decide you would join the military? JB: I was drafted. I was one of the last ones drafted. I was examined for the army on my 22nd birthday and was drafted three months later to the day. JG: How did that make you feel when all of that was going on? JB: Pleased, I was looking forward to it. I am a very strong patriot of the country and actually I was looking forward to it because it gave me an opportunity to see different parts of the country that I had never seen before. JG: Had you thought about enlisting before you got drafted? JB: No, I had not. JG: What experience was it going through basic training? JB: It was quite an experience. I loved it. We boarded the bus at Raleigh, North Carolina and went to Fort Jackson on March 19th of '59 or maybe on March 18. We were sworn in on March 19th at Fort Jackson. It was an incredible experience. I took basic training at Fort Jackson and then went to Fort Bragg for 13 weeks as a member of the 28th Field Artillery. We were one of the last units to go to Europe to replace the 92nd Field Artillery in Germany. They were out of Fort Sill, Oklahoma and we replaced them there, about 1,500 of us. Half of the company that I went through basic training with was in this company. 1 �JG: Did you have any special memories or any special story from basic training? JB: Great comradeship. You learn to look after each other. You learn to take care of each other. Really it taught me a lot of discipline and personally and I suspect that every well bodied and able person should be required to spend a certain length of time in the military. JG: Was that a combat deployment in Germany or was that… JB: We replaced that the 92nd Field Artillery. We were station in Germany about 75 miles from Frankfurt in the spring of 1960 when President Eisenhower and Khrushchev had their conference in New York. Khrushchev walked out on our president at that summit. We had been put on alert and I was on a survey team of 13 members. We put in field positions for howitzer 155 units and I was a surveyor for a survey team. We were sent to the…what was then the three meter strip dividing East and West Germany. JG: Ok. JB: We were on one side and they were on the other side and we were looking each other eye to eye. We were putting in gun positions not knowing was would take place after what had happened in New York. We were there for four days surveying and putting in positions. Never saw any combat, never saw any, nothing happened thank the Lord. But we were getting ready in case something did happen. JG: Right. JB: That was the closest experience that I had during my tenure. However, after I got discharged in '61, March of '61, we were put on alert again and some of my unit was called into active duty. I was fortunately not called. But I had made up my mind that if l had been called back, that I would probably have made a career out of the service. JG: Right, right. JB: Fortunately I was not called. JG: Was there a time when you were sitting there looking eye to eye when you thought it might break out right there? JB: When we were putting in all those gun positions at that time the border between East and West Germany…east of Berlin, just out of Berlin was just a three meter strip that was plowed and that was the border. That was before the wall, before anything else. They were, the East and West was facing each other across that three meter strip. It was never that close but it was just in preparation in case something did happen. JG: Was there any ever any communication back and forth between the two sides? Any hand gestures or a wave or anything like that? 2 �JB: They waived, we waived. We saw them and they saw us military dressed ready for anything that might happen. But we were doing our job and they were doing theirs. There was never any close confrontation or anything like that. JG: No Christmas Day thing like you hear about? JB: No. JG: No. So I assume your unit didn't suffer and casualties or injuries as a result of anything? JB: We did not, our unit did not. Now later on in late 1960 my survey group of 13 men was sent to Gratenau, Germany to test firing a battery. That was field training in Gratenau. When we got there, shortly after we knew something had happened but we didn't know what. The unit that we were going to test with was practice firing and they overshot the safety range and there were several casualties. The round actually hit in a tent city and there were several casualties. Of course we tested that battalion later on, I never did know the results and never did know that much about what happened. But I did know that within 24 hours there was the most brass I had ever seen in my military experience in Gratenau, Germany. This was a training place for a number of artillery outfits along with cavalry and others too. That was the training site in that part of Germany. That was the only time I saw any, and I really didn't' see that but I just heard about it but it was at the same location that I was in. That was the closet we came to having any catastrophe that was even close to combat or anything else. I just thank the Lord that I was very fortunate. My age allowed me to be too young for the Korean Conflict and of course I was already out when 'Nam came about. So I was in the little window between the two skirmished you could say. JG: Now, you say you were artillery. What sort of weaponry were you dealing with? JB: Our unit was a 155 outfit, self-propelled. I was in the HQ battery on a type of survey party that put in the gun positions for the firing batteries. We had three batteries. A,B,C, and there were about 1500 of us total in the HQ and the three firing batteries. We were in Germany and I was there 18 months, almost 19months. Some of the guys that had more time were there a little longer. But it was one of my best experiences I spent of the 19 months that I was in Europe in my military career. Probably five months was spent in the field. Not consecutively but our job was to put in roads and gun positions and things of that nature. So we were surveying all the time and wherever we finished the day we spent the night there and started the next morning. It was good duty. Cold in the winter time but we made it through and it was quite an experience for me. JG: Did you ever receive any kinds of citations, awards or medals? JB: Good Conduct and that was all. Of course, I had two promotions, came out as an E4, corporal E4, Specialist E4, equivalent to a corporal. Met with a number of people about extending my career but I did not, I choose to come home, and I did. Came home and was discharged on the 10th of March out of Fort Hamilton, New York. 3 �JG: Was that basically because you wanted to be back at home? Did you miss being back at home? JB: Well, I had a good time in service; saw a lot of country that I had never had an opportunity to see before. Early on, one of the good things in my military service was this; I knew early on that we were going to Germany. When we had basic training and went to Fort Bragg for second twelve we were told then that we would be shipped to Germany. They almost told us the date within a few weeks of when we would be going. Our plans were laid out so I knew early on that we were going to Germany and that floored me because I wanted to see that part of the world. In fact, I did not take any leave time except right after basic because I wanted to save it until I got over there. When we got to Germany I had a critical MOS (military occupational specialty) and was not able to take all of my leave time. In fact I got paid for 27 days of leave time that I couldn't take. But while I was there I saw seven countries and had a great time. It was the finest time of my life. I went over there as a Christian and I came back as a Christian and had a wonderful tour of duty. Had a lot of buddies that I had to take care of, but that was Okay. In fact we did one thing that was against seventh army regulation that we were unaware of at the time. Myself and two of my best buddies actually purchased a car from a GI that was coming back to the states. We bought a 1951 Mercedes that he had bought and owned. He was a master sergeant and was being transferred back. We did not know that it was against eleven army regulations to have co-ownership of a vehicle. I was the only one that had military license, a license to drive. I was the only one that could drive but the commanding officer found out that it was co-ownership and after about five months we had to dispose of the car, which was okay. We had planned to come home and bring it with us. We were going to ship it home and drive it home. But we had a lot of fun while we had it. Traveled in a lot of areas that I would not have gone before otherwise. My military experience was rewarding and also fun, we had a lot of fun; a lot of good times even though it was stressful at times. JG: Was there anything we didn't talk about you’d like to speak of or any kind of closing remarks or anything like that? JB: The thing I'd like to say Jeremy is this…I was discharged on March 10, 1961. At that time you brought your duffle bag with you because you had to for your service. Two years active, two years inactive, two years active-reserve, or two years inactive. My duffle bag is still packed, I'm 74 years old now, and if l was needed I'd be the first one to go today to do whatever I could do. I'm a very strong believer in our military and today it’s certainly not needed. The things that I did are not needed today because of the technology. The things they can do today we couldn’t do then. For instance, our 155 rounds…we had coordinates. We had field observers and all of the good stuff to make sure we had, and that was a part of the surveying job that we had to do, that the rounds were landing where we told them they were going to land. Today, today they can put them in a window 50 miles away. That's the difference in the technology today. We'd have firing observers to ensure that the work was done correctly and that it produced the results that were needed for the mission that may have been going on at that time. 4 �JG: Now it's the real-time satellite pictures and they know everything. JB: Now it's totally different and it amazes me the things that they can do today. We have the best army in the world and the best-equipped army in the world and the most intelligence that you can have in a combat situation. Wars today would not be fought the way they were years ago. Now, you'll always have to have the ground soldier. I believe that very firmly, but their role is tremendously different today then it was 50 years ago when I was in. JG: Right. JB: And even different when I was in than it was in World War I and World War II because we've seen pictures and we’ve seen movies, and we've seen military films on what they had to endure during that time, that would not be necessary today. The technique would not be necessary today. It's amazing what the technology has done and the places that, the improvement in military strength, power, and equipment in the past 40-50 years. If l had to, you asked earlier for an experience, our second 12 weeks of training at Fort Bragg was quite an experience. The 28th Field Artillery, the unit I was in, 1,500 strong was temporarily placed on “Snow Bomb Hill,” facing the main street that leads up the hill there. To our immediate right was the 82nd Airborne, to our immediate left was the 18th Airborne, directly behind us, the barracks behinds us, was the 77th Special Forces. So there we were "feather legs," as we were know to the airborne people and the Special Forces people because we didn’t jump out of planes you know. They gave us a hard time, they harassed us the entire 12 weeks, but that was okay. They did what they needed to do and we did what we needed to do. Listen, if they jump out of a plane fine, I don't want any part of it. JG: I'm with you there. JB: We had a lot of harassment during them time, but that was fun also. We lived with, we enjoyed it, and listened to it and that was it. Their training was certainly different than ours of course they were already mature soldiers at the time, airborne and Special Forces and the Special Forces training is unreal. We had 13 weeks of harassment, but it was fun. JG: Well sir, I thank you for the opportunity to interview you for this project. JB: Jeremy I enjoyed it, thanks a lot. It's brought back memories of 50 years ago, 51 years ago now, that I hadn't thought of. I will say this, I've still got, and I communicate today with several people, buddies of mine that were in the service. We communicate via email, phone calls and things of that nature. And you build relationships in service that you never build anywhere else and you never forget it. I may forget my social security number, but I'll never forget my serial number. JG: Right. JB: Those are the things that stand out to me. I got to tell you, I'm proud of being a part of the military. I'm proud of the training that I got. I may have agreed with it then, but I do today. Our 5 �military is second to none, I really believe that. It hurts me to see people in government, officials in government, talk negatively regarding our military, reducing the spending and things of that nature because they are, the men and women that serve today. Even though it's all-volunteer, I served in a drafted army. Today it's all-volunteer, and I can say, and you can say, yes they didn't have to go, they asked for it. But they are on the front line protecting us today from an enemy that is tougher to face today than it was even when I was in. Today they have one motive in mind, and that's to destroy us. We've got to make sure that we do the things that necessary to protect out country, and our nation, and our people, and to not allow us to be faced with war in this country. JG: Right JB: Hopefully there's no war anywhere but they are dong a great job and should be commended for it. Just this past week I was in a place of business and there was a service man in uniform, and I walked up to him and shook his hand and thanked him for what he did. Don't know what he was in, think he was a National Guardsman, but his role is important too. I am very very proud to have been in the military and to have served my country in any way that I could JG: Again, I thank you for letting me do this. JB: Glad to do it. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/64823e732a5ee7842d5ef4df2d87a859.mp3 aea626d8a79c7d0c94da9b62ef832ebc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Gilley, Jeremy Interview Date 9/24/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:22:31 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 6 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jim Brewer, 24 September 2011 Description An account of the resource Jim Brewer, interviewed by Jeremy Gilley, was born in Siler City, North Carolina in December 1936. He was drafted into the Army in 1959, took his training at Fort Jackson, and served in the 28th Field Artillery. In the interview he discusses his deployment in Germany, his job duties in artillery, and how technology has changed the military. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Subject The topic of the resource Brewer, Jim Veterans United States Interviews Language A language of the resource English 28th Field Artiller Germany Jim Brewer Siler City North Carolina United States Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2bef6ffa64a39fa4cc68ffd3748e6e07.pdf 05ca53486c547b441240042407bf1c59 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Francesca Johnson Asheville, North Carolina SF: Steven Folts FJ: Francesca Johnson SF: Before we begin I would like to thank you for participating in this interview and for your willingness to be a part of this veteran’s oral history project. I want you to be sure you realize that if you agree, this interview and its transcript will be made available in the special collections in Appalachian State University’s library. And finally I want you to know that if there are any questions you don’t feel comfortable asking or you feel they violate operational security, let me know and we will move on. Do you agree? FJ: I agree. SF: Can you tell us your name, and the date and place of your birth? FJ: Francesca Johnson, December 14th 1977, Anaheim, California. SF: And can you please tell us what war and branch of service you served in? FJ: Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Army. SF: And what was your highest rank? FJ: Sergeant. SF: I want to talk a little bit about what led up to you joining the Army, so when did you enlist? FJ: I enlisted in, on February 29th, 2000. SF: Okay, and what initially made you want to join the military? FJ: I wanted to travel. SF: You wanted to travel. And what made you choose the army over the other branches? FJ: My father was in the Army, so I kind of knew a little bit more about the Army than any of the other branches. SF: Okay, so what was your first military occupational specialty, your first job you had? FJ: It was 71L, administrative specialist. 1 �SF: So can you tell us a little bit about what that does? FJ: Awards, NCOERs… SF: Whole lot of paperwork and personnel type stuff? FJ: Yes. SF: Okay, so why don’t you tell us about your first day of basic training. FJ: It was… kind of weird (laughs). SF: Kind of weird? FJ: Yes It wasn’t what I expected, I thought there would be more yelling, there wasn’t too much yelling, it was mostly kind of fun. SF: So what were some of the things you learned while you were at Fort Jackson? FJ: No, I was in Fort Leonard Wood. SF: Okay. FJ: Some of the things I learned in basic? SF: Yes, what was it like back then in 2000? FJ: It was probably not that much different than what they’re doing now. We didn’t have combatives back then. So that’s probably the only really thing that was different. SF: Okay, so just give us like a basic, the stuff you started at the very beginning, like PT and moving into BRM, something like that. FJ: They did start us with PT. You start off, I think they started only running us a mile, and then they acclimatized us, however you want to say it, so that we could run further and did more exercises, so it got harder and harder. SF: Okay. So, do you have any moments that really stood out for you, memorable moments that you had when you were there? FJ: I liked the range; I never shot before I went to basic training. I did very well (laughs). SF: How do you feel about the quality of your training you received there, and the drill sergeants that taught you? FJ: I liked it. I thought it was a great experience. 2 �SF: After you finished your basic training and AIT (advanced individual training), where was the first duty station they sent you to? FJ: It was Daegu, Korea. SF: So how long were you at this first unit before you moved or got deployed? Can you tell us about like, the track leading up to you getting deployed? FJ: I was sent to Korea, and then I was sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana, then I was sent to Germany. And then I got out for two years and came back into the reserves, and that’s when I deployed to Iraq. SF: So why don’t you tell us where did you first land where you deployed, where did your plane land? FJ: It was Kuwait. SF: Okay. So what, can you walk us through like, your first day overseas? FJ: Pretty much when we first get there they put us in a room and kind of give us the briefing about the base and kind of like what’s going on, and the weather, they tell you of course you need to drink a lot of water cause you’re not used to that weather, and besides that we started getting ready, we start training a little bit over there. You’re only there like, maybe between one and two months, at the most SF: In Kuwait before you went to Iraq? FJ: Yes. Usually you’re supposed to be there ten days but we were only there for five. They sent us pretty quick. SF: Okay. What kind of things do you do in your downtime while you’re overseas? FJ: Um, went to the gym, or we ran around the base. There really wasn’t that much to do. They had a Starbucks and all that over there, I was surprised about that. But um, pretty much we just you know, exercised. I think everybody just exercised or barbecued. That’s about all we did SF: Did you guys have any way to stay in touch with your families, like internet or phones? FJ: Yeah, whenever it worked. SF: Whenever it worked? FJ: Yeah it was bad, because the generators would go out, but it was ok. It worked most of the time but usually when you really wanted it to work it didn’t 3 �SF: What year was this? FJ: 2009? The end of 2009, the beginning of 2010. SF: Were you given any leave time while you were over there? FJ: I was sent home early, so I did not take any leave. It was during Obama’s little thing where they had to send 50,000 troops home so I was one of them. SF: Could you tell us about your day-to-day duties while you were overseas, what you did in a general day? FJ: I worked with finance and I worked with the soldiers if they had any financial programs. I started getting everyone’s leave forms ready for when they did want to go on R & R. I also had to do accountability every morning about where our Soldiers were at. SF: Did you guys do any training while you over there, or was it just your job? FJ: Yeah, it was just our job; we didn’t really do too much training. SF: Did you see any combat while you were over there, anyone shoot any rockets at your base? FJ: Yeah, we got mortared twice while I was there but nobody got hurt. SF: Okay, so nobody got hurt, or you never saw anyone got wounded or got wounded yourself? FJ: Uh, no. We had one convoy, our first convoy that went out the wire, hit an IED (improvised explosive device) but there was only one person that was injured, he got shrapnel to his hand. SF: The first convoy that went out? FJ: Mm hmm. SF: Interesting. Did you have any of those critical incident debriefings, where something really bad happened and they gathered you all together? FJ: No, I didn’t. SF: Did you participate in any joint service operations with the other branches of service? FJ: No. SF: Do you have any memories that really stand out, good, bad, extremely boring from when you were over there? 4 �FJ: Um, the only good one that I can think of is every time, every Saturday or Sunday, a lot of us got together and just hung out and barbequed and that was a pretty good time. SF: Were you off on weekends? FJ: Some of us were, like every other weekend we would take off. SF: So generally you had like, a seven day week, then a five day, then a seven day? Okay. So what kind of awards did you get while you were there or right after you got back? FJ: I only got a good conduct medal since I came back early. SF: Do you feel like being deployed affected your relationships with your family and friends either while you were there, or after you got back? FJ: No. SF: Do you feel like it affected you personally at all? FJ: No. SF: Did being overseas change your opinions on maybe military service or our mission overseas at all? FJ: No. SF: So, did you have any difficulty readjusting when you got home? FJ: Um, yeah, well the first thing that you have to get used to is not carrying your weapon around. So I’d wake up and look for it. But besides that no, not really. Because I never really went out the wire so I didn’t have to worry about driving and stuff like that, but um, that was the only thing that I had to get used to, and acclimatizing again when I came back, it was a lot colder than what it was over there. SF: Do you still stay in contact with people from, you deployed with but aren’t serving with anymore, they’re in different units? FJ: No, we’re all still together. SF: Didn’t make any friends from other units? FJ: No. SF: So, what would you say to somebody thinking about joining the military today? 5 �FJ: I would say “do it.” I think it’s great. I learned a lot and I think I’m a better person for it, for what I did SF: So where are you stationed right now, and can you tell us a little bit about what you do there? FJ: I am stationed in Asheville right now. And I just got a new job as 68W SF: So tell us what that means. FJ: Medic. SF: So you’re a medic. FJ: Yes. SF: So, what do you think you’re going do with that, your new job or your career in general? FJ: I’m still kind of just new at it, but I’d like to pursue something more with it probably. Maybe go nursing, I’m not sure SF: You think you’re going try to retire out of the military, do the whole 20 years? FJ: Oh yeah, definitely. I’m halfway there already. SF: Alright, so why do you feel, if you do, that it’s important for veterans to share their stories? FJ: Well, probably just for knowledge, I mean you can always learn something new from everybody, you know to do something different in a different way, to learn people’s experiences. SF: Okay, so is there anything we didn’t cover that you might want to add, want to say on the record? FJ: No. SF: Well thank you very much for your time Sargent Johnson, and on behalf of all of us, thank you for your service. FJ: You’re welcome. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1a15bb63240f85ddb0647e7650ef7e11.mp3 ef16a7c36906211a6372f75170e9e970 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Folts, Steven Interview Date 11/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:11:42 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 6 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Francesca Johnson, 14 November 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Johnson, Francesca Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Francesca Johnson, interviewed by Steven Folts, was born December 14, 1977 in Anaheim, California. She enlisted in the United States Army in February 2000 and served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. In the interview she discusses her experiences in training and her job duties. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Francesca Johnson Operation Iraqi Freedom United States Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/38381f82a9cb2b00fa7646c7f824483c.pdf 9af5d0a3a513340fc5ca802eca2a57a2 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Steven Crowe Newton, North Carolina 13 October 2011 SR: Seth Revetta SC: Lieutenant Colonel Steven Crowe SR: I am here with Lieutenant Colonel Crowe, retired. It is 13 October 2011. My name is Seth Revetta, our first question shall be when and where were you born, sir? SC: Born in 1962 in Valdese, North Carolina. SR: What type of home life did you have? SC: I would characterize my early childhood years as probably lower income or upper-lower class. Mainly rural area upbringing. You know the “work hard then play later.” SR: When and why did you join the military? SC: Well, I joined the military because of the values that were instilled in me as a young kid. There was the work ethic, the honesty ethic, put your nose to the grindstone ethic. Matured and grew up a little bit more, of course along with that came patriotism and whenever I got to the point of making the decision about my future I felt like I had to give back to the country, a country that’s afforded me some privileges that I enjoy. SR: What made you want go to Appalachian State University to get your commission? SC: Actually I didn’t make that decision, my senior army instructor at East Burke High School made for me. I was a young dumb senior and he pulled me in one day in class and asked me if I wanted to go to college. I moaned around like a normal high school student does and after he verbally beat me up and got my head straight, him and Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm McDanner, who was the PMS (Professor of Military Science) at Appalachian at that time basically coordinated my future for me. And that’s how Appalachian came into the picture. SR: Where was your first duty station, and what were some of the difficulties you found as a new officer? SC: First duty station was South Korea after I finished up Officer Basic and Airborne School. And the biggest thing that I encountered right off the bat was that being a young officer and being surrounded by NCOs (Non-Commissioned Officers) who were the same age as me and in some cases old enough to be my dad. Having them follow me as the leader, and as a young, green, second lieutenant that was the biggest challenge. SR: Where all has the army sent you since you first joined? 1 �SC: After I left Korea, I came back to Fort Bragg, and spent six years there, and of those six… three of them were spent in places like Panama with Operation Just Cause, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, and the Virgin Islands after Hurricane Hugo. You know of course Iraq and Saudi Arabia and Baharan during the Gulf War and various places like that. After that I spent time at Fort Leavenworth (Kansas) on two occasions, one for Command General Staff College in Washington, D.C. at PERSCOM (Personnel Command) twice. I spent another assignment at the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell (Kentucky) and I finished out my career back in Korea as battalion commander. SR: What were some of the different schools you have been to and give a description of each school? SC: Some of the schools, of course, were more local schools for the units. But some of the major schools that I attended that I have patches or certificates for are Air Assault Course, and that is basically learning how to rappel out of helicopters, sling loading equipment, fast roping, those kinds of things. Of course in Airborne School you jump out of airplanes that falls in line with the vertical envelopment doctrine in our battle. The other school that I went to was Ranger School when I was in the 82nd Airborne I had the opportunity to go there. That school involved weapons and tactics and all kinds of things like that but in my opinion the most important thing from Ranger School I learned was more about leadership and more about myself and my own capabilities and how far I can push myself. Then I would say that after that Command General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, the FBI academy in ’97 and that pretty much sums up all the major schools. SR: You said you went to Airborne School, have you also been to Jump Master School? SC: Yes I have. I forgot about that one, not that it’s not important, that was probably the second hardest course I went through. The washout rate there was over 50 percent for each class. The hardest part about Jump Master School was actually learning the nomenclature for all the stuff associated with airborne operations and also memorizing all the technical specifications, you know for all that equipment and putting it into use along with, you know. Being in charge of the safety of the plane and knowing the commands and your makers on the drop zone. It’s a really mentally intense course and but after I got out of Ranger School, in my opinion that wasn’t an issue because Ranger School to me was the hardest school. SR: What are some of the best memories that you gained over the 21 years you’ve been in the Army? SC: A few stand out, one that stands out is, of course the day I graduated from Ranger School and got that ranger tab. That was, I’ll never forget that day, I’ll never forget what happened afterwards, how I conducted raids on Wendy’s and Hardees and Morison’s Café and every place between there and Fort Bragg. Another good memory was the day I was selected for battalion command and took command of that battalion, and of course the day I retired. SR: What were some of the biggest difficulties you faced as an officer? 2 �SC: The biggest difficulties was learning to adapt to the various leaders that I encountered over the years, some were very hard to work for. Some, in my opinion, were incompetent, but you learn very quickly in the army how to adapt and develop different methodologies, work around some of the problems that you perceive. So I think self-development wise that was one of my hardest ones. As far as the other challenges, I would say that not quite as many as one would think once you’re in the army, but near the ladder half of my career I started noticing a change in the quality and caliber of the soldiers coming in and I was a little disappointed that it seemed like their values were waning and lacking compared to earlier generations. SR: You said that you found it difficult to work for some leaders and that you had to adapt, how exactly did you adapt sir? SC: A lot of that really centered on me, not them. I naturally have a “Type A” personality, I want to take charge and get the job done. Get things organized, etcetera, etcetera and when I was working for people that weren’t like that I had to learn some self discipline, some self restraint type techniques and to be quite frank with you one of the biggest ones was physical fitness. A lot of times I would do a lot of working out to get rid of that pent up energy and frustration. The other thing I did is I had a mentor that I worked with and they knew exactly what I was going through and they gave me some coping strategies, such as how to address a problem with that, my superior in such a way that they would come around the way I wanted then to make a decision and kind of a manipulation technique so to speak. SR: What were some of the factors that made you want to retire? SC: Only one. I was single throughout my whole career, I came home on leave, I met my wife… my now wife, at church. She was my high school sweet heart as a senior in high school and I hadn’t seen her in twenty years. She happened to be at the church and we started dating, and we decided to get married and after that, with two step daughters in the picture, that was the only decision I had to make. SR: What exactly made you want to teach JROTC (Junior Reserves Officers Training Corps)? SC: One reason, to pay back what Colonel Wilson, my SAI (Senior Army Instructor) did for me at East Burke High School. Hopefully put somebody on the track to success like I was placed on the track. SR: How exactly did you get the Senior Instructor leadership role at Fred T. Foard? SC: Once I made the decision to retire, I had to make another decision on what kind of post army career I wanted to pursue and basically, throughout my whole life, I’ve always been thankful for Lieutenant Colonel Wilson for what he’s did for me so it wasn’t too hard to arrive at the decision. I’d like to get back here and pay him back in my own way. So what I did was Immediately went to the ROTC website, JROTC website online while I was in Korea and looked for vacancies and there was one open in Fred T. Foard High School and I remember we played them when I was in high school and it wasn’t too far from where I grew up. Well, I went on the 3 �website, emailed the principal, found out it was a brand new program that was being started; I would be the first SAI. I wrote her an email, she called me up and the rest is history. SR: When do you plan on finishing up your time at Fred T. Foard and where do you plan on going after that? SC: I’ve been planning on retiring every year since I’ve been here, but one thing here or there has canceled that or delayed that but I guess realistically my mark on the wall is ten years. So if I can make it to say 2015 that might be the year I decided to retire. When I do get there I would like to, I defiantly don’t plan on pursuing anymore work, but I’d like to maybe address maybe some hobbies and interests that I have been putting off for a few years like, maybe trying to write a book and getting involved with some organizations that I have been wanting to get involved with. SR: Which types of organizations would those be sir? SC: Mainly church and civic organizations, kind of volunteer work, you know giving back. SR: At this time I have no further questions. Is there anything that you would like to talk about that I haven’t asked you or anything that you would like to expand upon in a question that I asked previously? SC: No, I think we pretty much covered it. I like to see that my students continuing to succeed at Appalachian like yourself and I always like it when you guys come back here and even when you’re talking to me about this, the other students get to see you. We like to breed success here and it’s good to see you’re continuing your success and we’re proud of you. SR: Well sir, thank you for your time. SC: Thank you. 4 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/bdd2acee34b1cc417a921e0da93ada1d.mp3 8a1f421d498aae10ca591908dcd22abd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Revetta, Seth Interview Date 10/13/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:06 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 4 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steven Crowe, 13 October 2011 Description An account of the resource Lieutenant Colonel Steven Crowe, interviewed by Seth Revetta, was born in Valdese, NC in 1962. He attended Appalachian State University for Military Science and entered the Army as an officer and graduated from Airborne School. His first station was in South Korea. Mr. Crowe discusses his training, which also included Ranger School and some of the difficulties he faced as an officer. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Subject The topic of the resource Crowe, Steven Veterans United States Interviews Language A language of the resource English Airborne School Appalachian State University Ranger School Steven Crowe United States Army Valdese NC https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/13b2afb3011e5f53bbb7e45791f56d27.pdf 53de96731b87651435bccf8afeaa9318 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Leonard Blevins Boone, North Carolina 14 October 2011 ZC: Zack Crittenden LB: Leonard Blevins ZC: It’s October 14, 2011. We are in Boone, North Carolina at High Country Neurology. I’m Zack Crittenden interviewing Leonard Blevins. How old are you sir? LB: Fifty-Six. ZC: Where were you born, Mr. Blevins? LB: Down the mountain in Hayes, North Carolina. ZC: Hayes, North Carolina…is that in Wilkes County? Have you always stayed there or have you traveled around North Carolina? LB: Yeah, after college I joined the army. From that time on I’ve been traveling. I was assigned in North Carolina to Fort Bragg. ZC: How exactly did you get there? LB: I went through college on the ROTC scholarship and entered the army in 1977. I was in the army for twenty-six years. You start off going to a school, just like basic training for anybody but the officers learn more before you go there. It’s kind of interesting, I went into the army as a second lieutenant and I was twenty-two years old. I had forty guys under me but since I was the officer, I had a lot of older people that I had to boss around (both laugh). ZC: Well, that’s better since you didn’t have to go through boot camp right? How were your privates? Did you give them some hell? LB: Not more than they deserve. ZC: You’re just being a good officer. Did you ever get to know any NCO’s (non-commissioned officers)? LB: Actually my first NCO in the army came to my promotion to colonel. We were good friends outside of work; but inside of work you have to be the officer and the NCO. ZC: So you didn’t see actual combat? 1 �LB: Not in the army, no. I’ve seen people shooting at each other though. My part in the army is Special Forces so I wasn’t on the front line. I worked behind the line, with maybe strategic targets and reconnaissance. ZC: You told me before you were in Yugoslavia with the Special Forces. Did you operate more with the people behind the lines? LB: I went into Kosovo, and the Serbian army had pulled out of Kosovo, but their police were there. We had intelligence that suggested that the police would go to the border; change out of their army uniforms and changed back into police uniforms. We basically went and observed and talked to the people to investigate shootings and things like that. Make data on the policemen. ZC: And so you were with NATO? Did you go there in uniform? LB: I went there in civilian clothes. (Mr. Blevins and I got a bit off track, speaking mainly about the Yugoslavian people and Slavic culture and heritage. When we got back on track I brought up the subject of the interview again.) ZC: Were you awarded any medals, Mr. Blevins? LB: I have service medals. I went to Kosovo and got the Kosovo Medal, stuff like that. ZC: Can you tell me about some of them? LB: Nothing high, just a sign you were here. ZC: Did you stay in touch with your family? LB: As much as I could. You know, now we’re in the information age. I mean, a good friend of my adopted son who’s in Afghanistan…he Skyped his wife every night. Also, the nature of my job sometimes means in Special Forces they send you places and you can’t tell anybody your there. Often times I’d stay in contact if I could, and there were times where there was obviously silence. ZC: Did your family worry about you? LB: I think they did, it was hard. My mom and dad are pretty conservative country people. I think they were proud I was in the army, but I don’t think they understood what I did. I’d call them and say I’d be leaving and be gone for a couple months. ZC: That’s amazing, Mr. Blevins. Did you have any affiliations with the CIA? 2 �LB: Sometimes we’d work with the CIA but it’s more of a military thing. A lot of what Special Forces do is called Foreign Internal Defense, where you go another country and arm and train the locals. (Mr. Blevins spoke more about the nature of what the Special Forces are intended to accomplish. Somehow - most likely because of the subject of Yugoslavia - we also began a long conversation on dictatorships. There were short breaks of silence in between sporadic bursts of conversation. I felt like he was about to tell me something but knew it classified information. I didn’t pry.) LB: When you go into Special Forces, there’s no distinction between officers and enlisted. You start together. You do all the stuff together. And then at some point they divide out the group. You have a specialty; a guy in Special Forces may be a communications specialist. ZC: So you are where you need to be LB: Yeah. Special Forces is based on a twelve-man team. You may be where you want to be, but gradually you break up because you have to use your specialty. It’s pretty intense; Special Forces training takes about two years. They can do great things; they’re amazing people. ZC: Sounds like it. You do any half-day hikes or runs? LB: You do runs. In fact, part of Special Forces training is a timed run. They don’t tell you what the time is, but you have to do the run in a certain amount of time to go to the next phase. (Mr. Blevins went on to describe his Special Forces activities in great detail. His favorite, being a countryman, was being left in the wilderness to find the correct path that would lead him to the next phase of his training. As he described it, it sounded extremely fun. I asked him lastly about entertainment in the army. His answer? Star Wars.) ZC: Star Wars? LB: That’s the perfect war movie. I love Star Wars. ZC: You find a lot of correlations in that film? LB: I don’t want correlations. I want to be entertained. (Laughs) (Since Mr. Blevins said he had nothing left to add, I thanked him and we ended the interview.) 3 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5b97c568ceed293342b06e3fe00bb936.mp3 07545313783dad3fd569d5cfeabe89e2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Crittenden, Zack Interview Date 10/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:22:24 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 3 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leonard Blevins, 14 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Special Forces Blevins, Leonard Veterans Military Science United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Zack Crittenden interviews Leonard Blevins on his time in the Army Special Forces. Mr. Blevins discusses his duties in Kosovo and talked about his military training Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Hayes NC Leonard Blevins Special Forces Kosovo United States Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cf0b855fd30544341a060fd0242a5502.pdf 8ce621536de54bd1671bd959296a299f PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with David Owen Me?? DO: David Owen Me: Alright, so what's your name? DO: David Owen Me: What rank were you? DO: Lance corporal, Marine Corps Me: And how old are you? DO: 22 years old Me: So when did you first enlist? DO: I was 20 years old Me: So you got out of high school? DO: When to work for a while, just noticed things that with my job and everything weren't that happy and everything, kind of got in with the wrong crowd. I just knew if I kept going the way I was I wouldn't have a very bright future so, one of the guys I worked with had been in the Marines for seven years at that time and just the way he carried himself and the way he acted around all of us influenced me to join. Me: Alright, so that was a big influence on. DO: Yeah he was my main boos at work so, it kind of, you know being around him all the time made it easier for him to influence and always be there and stuff and just the way he carried himself, and solved all the problems and stuff we had. Me: Did you have anybody in your family that was in the service? DO: No, nobody in my immediate family or like great grandparents or grandparents or anything. Everybody we have is like one or two cousins, nothing real, real, close. Me: So how long were you in? DO: I'm still in, I've been in for three years now. Me: What unit and battalion were you? 1 �DO: I deployed with CLR-15, out of camp Pendleton, CA. My unit is out of Greenville, SC. But we attached with CLR-15, originally it was Ammo Company then deployed and went to Security Company CLR-17 of camp Pendleton and did some security with them. Me: How many times did you deploy? DO: Just one time so far. Me: Where were you at? DO: We were in the Helmand province of Afghanistan for most of my deployment it was mostly the southern region of Afghanistan. Me: So what was that like, what was Afghanistan like? DO: It was pretty hot. Me: Really DO: The hottest day of the year for us was July 14th, it got to 146 degrees. And it's a real dry heat, if it was around here it would be worse feeling that hot with the moister in the air, but with that heat your sweat is evaporating as soon as it appears, so it’s easy to get dehydrated. If you're out doing anything you got 80 pounds of gear on you, you're wearing the camo, which is long sleeve, long pants, Kevlar helmet, the big MTV or the military tactical vest which has the sappy plates in it, you carrying a rifle, it’s real heavy. Me: So are you carrying that kind of weight every time you go out? DO: anytime you leave the base you got 80 something pounds strapped to you with armor. Me: God, so where you in a pretty well built fire base or was it something you constructed when you got there? DO: The main base we went into was camp leatherneck, which has been there since the initial push back in 01 after September 11th, which has been the biggest base, longest base that's been in Afghanistan. It was pretty well, like built, I mean it's over three square miles, it’s pretty caught up on times, like it’s not like, you got like two or three different chow halls, you got a PX to go shop and buy little things you need.' But for us doing security we were jumping base to base, taking convoys from one base to another and doing security for them so some of the bases we went to wouldn’t be but 500 yards of base and just always taking fire and getting mortared, always have a full alert on those little bases but the bigger bases you weren't always full alert it was more secure. Me: So you were running security on convoys? 2 �DO: Yeah I was the Mark-19 gunner on a MRAP and a, what was the other one called, we had MRAPs and, I can't remember what they're called now. But it was the two new vehicles that replaced the Humvees, I was a gunner for most of it on a Mark-19, which is a belt fed grenade launcher, so it was uh, I had the big gun. We'd take the supply convoys from the bigger base, everything comes into leather neck and gets dispersed out from there, and you got to take you know, for the enemy, like if they see nothing but the MRAPs and stuff coming through their not going to really mess with them because that's just recon and all the bigger like, all the infantry battalions just pushing through doing patrols trying to find people. What they would do is attack the supply convoys, they knew if they could cut off our supply's it would hurt us more than anything, so that and it's a longer chain of vehicles so there's more chances of hitting something, weather it was one of the bigger, like the 18 wheeler looking trucks we have, where it was something like that or the security trucks, they knew they had better chances of hitting something in a supply convoy than anything else. Me: Did you all have a lot of routinely heavy fighting, or was it in spurts? DO: It was in spurts, the first couple of months I was there it was pretty calm, I deployed from March till October and it didn't really pick up till late April. In late April and May is when it really started to pick up and everything then by the time it was early July and August it was staring to calm down a little bit, but then after, after August for some reason it picked back up again pretty good. I don't know why it happened in spurts but it was different areas we were going to and everything else so it might have just been the area we were at. Me: So what was the first fire fight you got in, like I sure that was a pretty hectic crazy experience? DO: First one we had, we had took like we had been out of the wire and had taken just a couple small ambushes and our command told us just to push through so we didn't return fire, the gunners just get down inside the truck where their protected by the armor of the truck too, but we just pushed through. But then, the first one we were stopped because we had a truck problem and it was right before an area they were already going to attack us probably, and we were down for a truck having a flat tire, and the security, we left out from where the convoy was and pushed out a little ways to where we could see more of an open range around us. So one of the trucks, I think was west facing took an RPG round, it didn't hurt anybody but that's whenever we knew things were serious now. So we had to just light up the mountain side because we couldn't see anything that was going on or where anybody was really at we couldn't see any actual personal or people so we just go the word to aim at the mountain side and light it up. Me: So a lot of their stuff is small ambushes that you encounter? DO: Yeah, we had a couple that was caused by the IED's, the explosive devices that take out a vehicle. And right when we're down because they blew the axel or tire of a vehicle or something, 3 �we'd be down for that reason and then, when the place an IED they'll watch it, watch that are and wait for you to get hit with it and while your down and they sense your vulnerable that's whenever they would attack. Because they know you can't leave that area. Me: So being over in Afghanistan, what was the main thing you missed, what were some of the main things that, I don't know, you're not use to being without? DO: Well like while your over there it really bugs you not to get to talk to everybody that much and everything, I missed the simple things like being able to go out and do whatever on the weekends, like go out and just work your normal work day as a civilian and then go out in the evening and drink beer or go to a nice restraint or go to a movie theater, you know hang out with your other friends but like when your over there everybody's going through the same thing and you know you're stuck there for the time your deployed so you like start to adjust to it and you start to miss your family a lot because you don't get to talk to them a whole, whole bunch. Just moving from different bases and different things that go on, you go two or three weeks without talking to anybody so. Me: So like when you’re deployed with this group of guys you all train together, have been together for a while right? DO: Yeah, some of the best friends that you'll ever make is the guys you know are stuck in the same situation you are over there and you knows no matter what happens they got your back. I mean I'm not saying that normal civilian friends won't have your back if something goes down but like the military guys that are there when it does come down to people shooting at you and everything and knowing you have to trust them to have your back and they have to trust you too, It's a totally different friendship than anything else. Me: So the bonds that came out, the friends you made there... DO: Oh yeah Me: That's pretty important stuff? DO: Yeah through the military you meet people from all over the place, I got friends that I still talk to today that were with the British Marines and stuff, that we had to do convoys and stuff with them, and like just the difference in the world that they grew up in and you grew up in, not to mention just different Marines from like Texas or California or up north compared to just the people you knew from just being raised and not being that far away from the place you've lived your whole life. Me: So you still keep up with a lot of those guys? DO: Yeah, I talk to an awful lot of them on Facebook or e-mail or stuff like that, just different Marine buddies and different British Marine guys I met. Me: So are you still in that same unit or... 4 �DO: Yeah I'm with the same unit. Me: So in the Marine Corps will you stay with that same unit or will you get transferred out? DO: You can get transferred out with any branch, like4 my unit in Greenville isn't going to change because I'm with the reserves and everything now but like as an active duty personal, it’s hard to be active duty and stay on the same base, or same unit, you'll have orders come in from like Camp Lejeune, NC and they'll move you from there to Camp Pendleton, they'll move you to Japan and the bases there, just where ever the military sees that it needs you or your rank. Because they look at you as an individual but over all they look at everyone as, ok we need two or three lance corporals or two or three sergeants or something, we need them to be in Japan so, they'll be like well we have more than what we need at Pendleton so we'll just take a couple from there, I mean when you sign up for the military you sign your life away for that contract and where they need you they'll put you. Me: So what kind of lessons, did you have any lessons that came out of your time overseas or any kind of long lasting change? I know that's not a very well worded question... DO: You learn more about yourself in an environment like that, like not like your alone by yourself or anything like that, but just knowing what you can mentally handle in life, I mean a lot of people without joining the military or anything like that don't really know how stressed out they can be, I mean I'm not saying that any other job should be that stressful compared to the military but the life on the line situation and then someone at a base is telling you orders to do when they aren't even out there in the trucks with you to see what the really situation going on is, and like us getting shot at and them telling us to duck in the truck and run off and not fight back, then two weeks later in that same area the same ones that were shooting at you end up hurting somebody or killing two or three people because they got a bigger ambush that time or just being able to pass up the opportunity to take out the enemy now to do it later on and maybe they end up hurting more people between now and then. Me: So how did you feel about the officers in your... DO: You'll like some of them, some of them you won't agree with their decisions but over all you do what your told and if, you can lose your rank and all kind of stuff if you disobey a direct order from an officer, I mean it's better to so what they say right then and if it's wrong their the one that takes the fall for giving you the order, it's better to do what's said then to think for yourself and do something that's wrong in the long run and lose everything you have for a small decision. Me: So what was the thing you hated most about being overseas? DO: It's hard being over there, I mean I was over there for 8 months straight pretty much, missing your family is tough, and like at the time I was deployed I had a girlfriend over here, just missing her and not just seeing people and not having the real ability to touch people while 5 �you're talking to them, you know using Skype if you have a web cam you can use to actually see them the rest of the time it's just Facebook chat of phone calls home, you know not being able to see them or actually be with them when you're talking to them being 13 or 14 hours ahead of their schedule make it hard to line up a time to communicate with someone back home. So mainly just like the small things about communication and not being with the ones you care about the most. Me: Other than missing people or not getting to see friends and family were there any day to day things that drove you nuts over there? DO: Foods not very good because it's the cheapest food there is and it's made for a thousand or so people at once. So it's not like, every now and then we'd get something decent to eat but if you out on convoy its nothing but the MREs which will stuff you up and they're not very delicious either and in the chow halls its eggs that are made out of, powdered eggs and stuff like that, just small things like that not nothing horrible to deal with. Me: Were there a lot of political feelings in your unit, did you all talk politics or where the officers political or any sense of political allegiances or was it just kind of doing your job? DO: We didn't really talk politics we'd see it on the news and we'd get news updates if it was something that was happing back home, if it was something happing with the president or something bad or weather a certain governor was pushing for this, but mainly over there it was just focusing on what we needed to do there not about anything going on back home unless it was directly going to affect me. But like I had been deployed during the pay stop for two weeks, when that happened I'm sure that everyone that was deployed when that happened changed a lot of stuff over there, being something political that happened here, I mean that would have been something weird to deal with. Knowing you're going out to put your life on the line for the government and your country and everything you believe in, and all the sudden they stop paying you while your over there fighting for their rights and freedom. Me: So what was the thing you enjoyed most about your deployment? DO: It would be the bond that I made with some of the guys and other friends over there, one of my buddies from South Carolina Randy, me and him didn't even know each other before the deployment and now we're like best friends. One of the other guys I deployed with he was from Boston and he'd always pick on me for being a country boy and I'd pick on him for being a Yankee and just like the bond you make with different people that you would have never met any way in the world except for being in the military with them. Just like the friendship you've made with other people. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8e06d26fe4ae33b93a8b58977204206a.mp3 9805ab753d494dd85aec321e3b0f735c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Interviewer unknown Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:21:14 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 6 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Owen, undated Description An account of the resource David Owen, Marines, Lance corporal, 22 years old. In this interview David Owen talks about how his boss at work influenced him to join the military. He goes on to discuss his deployment to Afghanistan and some of his experiences there. Some of his experiences include; dealing with the heat and environment, combat, the things he missed, and the bonds that were created with other soldiers. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Undated Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Subject The topic of the resource Owen, David Veterans United States Interviews Language A language of the resource English Afghanistan David Owen Marines https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/417fbe36754cfb6c811bc722f95b4856.pdf e40979c0b1231784403a5f4e9a8f1f22 PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Robert Randall Boone, NC 16 October 2011 CD: Chelsea Dix RR: Robert Randall CD: It Is October 16, 2011. My name is Chelsea Dix. I am a student of Dr. Browning’s in the history department at Appalachian State University I’m interviewing Mr. Robert Randall, my grandfather over the phone. He is in Eden, North Carolina and I am in Boone, North Carolina. CD: Mr. Randall… start off, when’s your birthday… just to start off. RR: My birthday is December 15, 1939. CD: Alright, and where are you from? RR: I am originally from Asheville, North Carolina. CD: Okay. What years were you in service? RR: I was in the service from the tenth of March, 1959 until the first of April, 1979. CD: Could you tell me a little bit about when and why you decided to join? RR: I decided to join because of the inability to obtain an education, which I needed, and found that the service offered training and abilities that I was not afforded otherwise. CD: Alright. When, when you joined, what was your experience during basic and your specific job training? RR: My job experience prior to the service was varied quite a bit, primarily as a laborer and…type jobs. My entry into the service was under the infantry initially. Prior to completing my individual training I was trained as a military policeman. CD: Did you choose that or… RR: I was assigned there as I entered the service as unassigned regular Army. And it was chosen for me. CD: were you ever deployed in a combat situation? RR: Yes, technically, I first time was in Vietnam in December of 1969 until December of 1970. I was deployed to an area known as Quinhon, Q-U-I-N-H-O-N, in central Vietnam and served as a first sergeant of a security company in a depot in that area. 1 �CD: Okay. Tell me a little bit more about your experiences in the service. Some positive things you can think of, maybe a couple of negative things. Just your overall experience and how you saw it. RR: Primarily my entire career is of a positive nature. I completed basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. I was assigned to military police school in Augusta, Georgia. Upon completion of that, I was assigned to Sandia Base, New Mexico which, at that time was part of the Manhattan Project, and I served for five years. Prior to being reassigned to Korea, again a great experience. Upon returning to the United States, I was then reassigned to Sandia Base, New Mexico, primarily because of my experience in law enforcement and my security clearance would probably be the primary reason for my reassignment there. I stayed there until 1969 and I was reassigned to a security position in charge of a battalion security operation in the 562nd Artillery, that’s air defense artillery, in Fairbanks, Alaska for just under a year and at that time was reassigned to Vietnam. Again, to that point my experiences were all positive. What else could I add, Chelsea? CD: It’s pretty open. So, whatever you feel like sharing about any of your experiences, whether in the states or deployed. RR: Okay. To back up a little my experiences in New Mexico would have to be rated some of the best in the military services. It was known as the Shangri La of the military. The assignment was excellent; I served on town patrol and worked with the Albuquerque city police department for a number of years and after that point worked on the installation primarily in the operations of the provost marshal’s office. When I left there to go to Alaska, I arrived to take over security for an air defense artillery battalion, however, they found that my experience in personnel as a personnel sergeant was going give me priority or was going take priority and I was taken from there to run the personnel section of the battalion. I wasn’t that crazy about being in personnel, having been in military police for many years. So, I arranged my own reassignment through the Department of the Army to Vietnam. CD: So you chose to go to Vietnam? RR: Yes I did. I had previously volunteered for Vietnam while I was in New Mexico only because of the experience that I would gain to further my career. When I got to Vietnam, I was assigned to a unit that had military policemen that (needed or knew) supervisory positions. So, I formed a security company that, prior to that, had not existed to provide security for the Long Mai depot and shortly after that my initial assignment went from only myself being assigned to having three hundred enlisted men. And a portion of those rotated in and out every thirty days because in addition to being charged with security for the depot, my unit, which we assumed the requirement for gave in- country 2 �training for new arrivals for 30 days and after their training used them as security guards for approximately another thirty days. And it was a constant rotation in and rotation out of personnel. I maintained a roster of approximately three hundred. The detail or the requirement for the company included indigenous escort to and from the workplace and the large city of Quinhon which was approximately twenty miles away, and security for tank farms, that’s fuel tank farms, security for the depot which was several hundred acres, and security for the personnel assigned. We had some skirmishes here and there throughout the year. Luckily only a short number of personnel were involved and I believe during my tenure that I only lost three men. CD: And how long were you there? RR: One year. CD: One year? After volunteering and being there was it what you expected? RR: Almost exactly what I expected. It wasn’t initially a military police unit, but it turned into one with my arrival and once I took over the unit I insisted on the assignment as a military policeman which is what all of the initial personnel were. The general attitude of law enforcement had not been accepted by the personnel assigned to the depot so it was a new experience for the people that were assigned there. They didn’t care to be policed in the manner they should have been, however the support of the battalion commander changed all that and law enforcement began to take hold and everybody decided to go along with us. I don’t know any other way to really put that. CD: (chuckles) During this time did you keep in touch with family or friends or anything back in the states? RR: Yes. At that time, mail was free. All you had to do was put your assigned unit up in the left hand corner along with your name, rank, and so on. And in the right hand corner, where a stamp normally goes, all you had to do was put “free” and your mail was free. If you wanted to send an excess of five hundred dollars a month back to the United States, it had to be in the form of an allotment, which was done by the finance group that…A lot of people had excess cash and they were very limited in what they could return. Also, they were limited in what they could bring back to the United States, financially that is, upon their return. So, it was really a, I guess, a great way of stopping any kind of financial pride. Okay. CD: How long after your return did you remain in service? RR: I remained in service approximately another ten years after my return. I was assigned, after my tour in Vietnam, to the Presidio in San Francisco and remained there for approximately three and a half years. And then, and that was as the operations sergeant in the provost Marshall’s office. And part of that time was spent as the (some sort of interference) NCO of a 504th M.P. battalion. After leaving the Presidio I went to Heidelburg, Germany as the operations sergeant in the provost marshal general’s office and remained in that position until reassigned to the 15th 3 �Military Police Brigade in Mannheim, Germany where I was assigned as the sergeant major of the battalion. And I remained there for approximately another year and a half until reassigned to CONUS which is Continental United States. I was reassigned to Fort Huachuca, Arizona as the operations sergeant of the Provost Marshall’s office and remained there until my retirement in 1979. CD: Okay. Trying to get my, my stuff straightened up here. Trying to think of anything else in particular I could ask. RR: Yea, I don’t know how much detail you wanted me to go into anything so… CD: As much as you want to go in. RR: Well, I don’t know how deep you want to go. CD: Just what… it’s all whatever you’re wanting to share. As I’ve said, it’s a project for researchers as well trying to study different aspects of, I guess military life or I guess if somebody wanted to go back and see somebody else’s perspective on, I guess, you know, when you were in Vietnam, or something. It’s just anything you’re willing to share. Anything that you think relevant. RR: Oh, it really takes some in-depth thought and question and answers to come up with anything that I would think people would be interested in. It was very interesting to me at the time that… I don’t want to sound overly, I don’t know what the word- arrogant and I don’t want to sound exactly humble at the same time. So, it’s, it’s hard to say what kind of information that the researchers would want but I could answer either positive or negatively any question that would be asked of me. I go back a few years, back to Vietnam, which is apparently what the researchers are primarily interested in. I guess the overall problem, other than combat, of course, and having somebody shoot at you, was the attitude of the American public, which was, at that time, extremely bad. And the, I don’t know quite how to put this, but as a result of the attitude of the American public and, and the riots and so on that were taking place in the United States at that time. One of the biggest problems that I had as a first sergeant of the unit was maintaining control of the black soldiers: the African Americans. They tended to run in packs. They intimidated the whites. They had all kinds of slogans. The rank of those who were in charge made no difference to these packs that… When they were off duty or free to roam, as they often were, they intimidated those who were not, at that exact time then, in a combat situation. In other words, this is the times when they had free time to go to the post exchange or to take part in club activities that were in different locations throughout our area of operation. That was the biggest problem that I had and I dealt with it as best I could. Often without an officer available to render his opinion. I dealt with it and carried out my job the best I could. So, other than the combat and tactical part of it, that was the biggest problem that I faced. 4 �CD: Kind of meant to ask you something about this earlier, but I know during the time, like you said, people in the United States were going a little bit crazy with, you know, you had a lot of people who didn’t support the war at all, or didn’t understand it, I’m not really sure. But did you see an effect on soldiers’ morale or did a lot of people seem to agree with the people over in the United States at the time? Did they believe they were over there for no reason or did they seem to actually believe in a purpose, in your opinion? RR: You have to keep in mind that at that time the draft was still in effect and there was an awful lot of people drafted that had no desire to be in the military service and you’re only there because otherwise they would have risked going to jail, so yes there was a lot of people that were opposed to the war. Everybody seemed opposed to the war except those that were, I guess the best way to put it, except for those who were career military people. Everybody else was opposed. Even some of the career people were opposed to what we were actually doing. Not, not, not because they were getting shot at, for instance, it was that they were opposed to the particular actions that were being taken in Vietnam. But the big problem was the total lack, it seemed, of American support. There was no support. I’ve had people spit at me if I were wearing a uniform. I returned from Vietnam and landed at Seattle-Tacoma and had anti-war demonstrators at the airports. They attempted to spit on you, if you were in uniform. It was just, it wasn’t a very friendly atmosphere for somebody that had just risked their life to save theirs is the way I look at it. CD: Right. That must, you know, that must kind of be upsetting, you know. I can’t imagine. RR: It was upsetting for everybody but especially for those that had been injured. Especially those that give their life. The individual couldn’t be upset of course, he wasn’t there. There’s a lot of people that return with injuries that they gave, some gave freely, for what they were sent there for. But this never did make much sense to me but the public was so opposed to the member himself. He could have been, or they could have been opposed directly to the president and to what he was doing at the time. When I returned from Vietnam, and was assigned to the Presidio of San Francisco, the first year I was there, I spent most of my weekends in a riot control formation to stop rioters from coming on to the installation. That was a, a sort of operation, there was no choice but to stop any number (interference) of situations in downtown San Francisco, that we were to stop, was the best way to put it and we did stop it, on all cases. CD: Did that type of attitude from everybody, well not everybody, but a lot of the rioters and a lot of the negativity from the United States, did that seem to kind of put a damper or hinder, let me think of the word, what you all were trying to do? Did it hinder peoples’ performance, peoples’ work? That type of thing. RR: Well certainly it did and you had the feeling that if you accomplish whatever mission you may have been assigned to accomplish, it wouldn’t be appreciated. It wouldn’t even be desired, as a matter of fact, it was looked at as you were being a turncoat because you were following the commands of your superiors because anybody that had went along with the commands that they 5 �were given, were traitors to them that the rioters and the, those that marched and put the United States in an ugly situation. CD: considering all of everything you’ve done and your entire experience; if you could go back in time would, would you do anything different or do you think you would just do it all again the same way? RR: Well, hindsight is 20/20 so, I can’t say that I would do it all the same way. I can say that I enjoyed my experience in the military. There was some difficult times, not all of which were in Vietnam. Like I said, some of the situations, at the Persudio in San Francisco were very difficult because of the lack of U.S support. It was, it was a big strain on my, not only myself, but the men assigned to me and those that I were, I was leading, or attempting to lead. Fortunately, I had a good group of me and later women that accomplished a lot, regardless of what the general public thought about us. CD: That’s good. I can’t think of anything specific to ask but is there anything else you’d like to share or add or any closing thoughts. RR: No, again, I had an exceptional experience. I wouldn’t trade it for anything. There were moments of extreme difficulty, extreme fear, I guess as well, but it all worked out. I was very fortunate in my career and very fortunate and the officers and men supported me. CD: Well that’s good. RR: And I would do it again. CD: Well good. If, if that’s all you can think of, and I can’t think of anything else to ask then I would just like to thank you very much for your time and interviews been a pleasure. It’s been an eye opener and I thank you very much. RR: You’re certainly welcome. I’ll talk to you later. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ff89594049feecbe0e1cae409b7f8df4.mp3 55e7194696ecf34721807ee93a5994c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Dix, Chelsea Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:29:30 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 6 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Randall, 16 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Randall, Robert Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Robert Randall, U.S. Army, born on December 15, 1939. In this interview, Robert Randall discusses how his inability to obtain an education led to his decision to join the military. He goes on to further discuss his overall experience in the military. He specifically mentions his involvement in Vietnam as well as his career with the military after Vietnam. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/16/11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Boone Chelsea Dix North Carolina Robert Randall U.S. Army Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ec813edaf4955ae9eae673c8c1cc1519.pdf b109f163a4aab9b3dcf83d7f1a7947b7 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Daniel P. Sponsel 25 September 2011 NS: Nathan G. Sponsel DS: Daniel P. Sponsel NS: Alright, my name is Nathan Gray Sponsel It is currently Sep 25 2011. I am here interviewing SFC Daniel Prescott Sponsel of the 1st theater sustainment command currently. Now in front of me I have your NCO evaluation Report. I would like to read off the daily duties and scope. "Senior Chaplain Assistant and Operations NCO for the 1st sustainment Command (Theater) Chaplain's Office; directs supervision of two 56Ms; responsible for spiritual welfare and pastoral care of over 10,500 Soldiers, civilians, and their families; provides operation level religious support for planning, resourcing, management, and training of 56 Chaplain and Chaplain Assistants in Kuwait, Sinai Egypt, and down trace units in Afghanistan; monitors the operational religious support of the forward command post and main command post; provides logistics support for the daily office mission; advises the command on enlistment matters impacting the unit morale. now I would like to be able to understand how exactly you got to this point in your life, so in order to understand this and understand why you may have joined the military and where you are right now I would like to understand where you are from, when you were born, and how you grew up, so what are your comments on that DS: well it’s great; those are lofty comments in that NCOER. These descriptions are probably greater than what any of us like to do and those of us in the military we really sometimes feel a little bit shy about hearing some of those things, but really it’s been an honor for at least the last 10 years to work hard with chaplains to nurture the living, care for the wounded, and honor the dead. it is quite the actually the mission, and there has been some excellent folks that have given all of their time and effort to fight this war on terror for the last 10 years so just that’s a preface but truly I didn’t ever plan to join the military growing up as a young kid. It was something that fortunately was something that was thrust upon me as a member of the JROTC program. My father, I was the last of 8 kids and my father was an orthopedic surgeon, we lived in the suburbs of the twin cities of Minneapolis and Saint Paul. a place a little village called the village of Edina and back then it was kind of a small little place pretentious town, but most of the folks that I grew up with were doctors and lawyers kids and we kind of had a protective little bubble so we weren’t , I mean we’d play army and every Halloween we get out there and put people on stretchers and have moulage, and blood, and ketchup and make sure we had a good time, but it wasn’t something that I thought I would do, but when my father passed away back in 1979 I was a 10th grade kid and I had been going to public school all my life in the suburbs, and now I was faced with not having the kind of leadership I had had all my life. He was a great guy he was an orthopedic surgeon and was out there to serve his fellow man and take care of folks, so all of us in our family each one of us all 8 kids had a chance to see a man of integrity that just, worked really hard to be modest and not pretentious so we really just were very well grounded, after he left, I mean after he passed away I really didn’t have a lot of direction so but the middle of my 10th grade year, my sister, she was the oldest in the family, she 1 �had been a missionary for about 10 years, in the south side of Chicago. She was, you know, obviously I’m a Caucasian guy and she was with the inner city kids of Chicago back in the 60's, and as you remember those were too multuous times with racial relations that were stiff and Martin Luther King was still doing his work. Billy Jackson and Billy gram were doing theirs. She worked at an apple orchard in Michigan under a preacher named Rev. Gleason, and she was really pumped up to help others. When it came time, after you know, she’s the oldest kid in our family. I’m the youngest. When my father died even though I was a little suburban, bubble protected kid that lived a protective life and was kind of oblivious to those challenges that she experiences being a missionary for this south side of Chicago kind of folks. She did notice that in me, after my father died, that I was not tracking, didn’t have a lot of direction, and probably causing my mom a little gray hair here and there for not coming home at night and doing this and that so I could have really easily spiraled into something that wouldn’t have been positive so she said they come down to Nashville and live with me and Nashville TN she was a very respected and accomplished general manager of a hotel, the Radisson hotel corporation. It was called the Radisson Nashville plaza and basically as far as we knew I was just going to go down and live with here after my dad died. But when she looked around at the schools down there and they said hey man we're studying Romeo and Juliette. I’m not being mean to the south, but there wasn’t a whole lot in their public schools that matched where I was at, in the twin cities. So she found a private school that was called Castle Heights Military Academy. And I and my long hair had to zip down there and start going there to that particular institution because they really did have a good curriculum. It had been since 1902a honor school of distinction through most of its many years. I went down about 1979 NS: and when were you born? DS: I was born in 1963 so I was, I guess I’m I don’t know how old I am. 47? Almost 48. And so I’m just kind of a young old guy so but no it was cool to grow up in those, I was a Reagan era baby. So to speak when I decided to get past adolescence I was marching to the drum of peace through strength. That was the slogan we lived back then. And so it was a really honorable time to be in the military. It still is. But anyway, I must tell you after high school at this military academy, it was a great experience. I was a battalion bugler I played in the band I played trumpet in public school back in MN so when I went down south I figured instead of standing in formation and fainting like all the INF guys to the platoons to the left and right of me I would be in the band and at least I would be able to go up and down and march up and down the field for pass and review and that way keep me from fainting. but anyways that, I only share that because it’s important to know that I would never have chosen the military if I had not had that past experience in JROTC as a boarding student in Nashville TN. as a yank going down south they called me a damned Yankee because I came down south and I stayed, but uh, the answer is I joined active duty time after spending three year in recruiting as a AGR Active Guard Recruiter. 2 �NS: Alright and when did you do that? DS: I did that back in 86-89 and it was in Faribault MN. I had three kids by that time and was something to do active duty, I had moved from down in the south. I had lived in Atlanta GA with my wife, and then when we were first having our first child we decided hey we need to go back towards the family in MN and so we came up there, had our first child Nicholas, your big brother, good guy. And I just decided to do recruiting NS: and so you enlisted in the reserve or guard? DS: um, I was in 1982 I joined the army national guard before I met your mother. and that was , and the reason for that was that I did about a year, you know it was in the first semester, and my fathered had died, doesn’t mean that the money had dried up by that time, just means that look, you know, I was getting everything you could get in school. I was getting A's B's C's D's W's and incompletes, so I had everything and I said you know I’m not really paying attention here. I wasn’t partying or throwing down and doing crazy stuff because my roommate, I actually went to college at the University of Wisconsin just because my buddy was. And his name was Mike Spence. I just decided hey; well let’s go to college because that’s what you are supposed to do. It’s expected. And so I went there and had a good time and had some good classes. But I really wasn’t focused and I felt like hey let me go ahead and do something on my own. I really at that point in my life my father had died and that really is a hinge I have to tell you being that my father had died when I was just kind of living the utopian life you know. I had the cabin to go to the farm to live on, a hobby farm, and do cool stuff with, but it was time for me to do my own thing so I decided I’d need to go ahead and instead of take free money from the family I looking into this student loan repayment program they were talking about. In the army national guard. I went into the Infantry unit right there in Menomonie Wisconsin where the University of Wisconsin was me and a buddy "Chicken Man" we went and we joined together and uh so that was a pretty cool thing. And one reason I did this was because it wouldn’t give me a student loan because, ah, I have parents their tax returns said they made too much money for me to get a student loan so I was stuck as, I was yearning as a young kid to be independent, but yet the joke was on me I came from the wrong cross4 section of society where they didn’t give you a student loan so I was stuck so I said let me go do something on my own. and the one thing I got to tell you is that the army is composed of people from all cross sections of life and for a kid that might have grown up in the suburbs, I’m not making a big deal about that, only just that it’s a fact. for us to do something on our own without mommy or daddy handing it to you, it’s a pretty cool thing so when I went to basic and AIT at Ft. Benning, GA as an infantry man it was a pretty rewarding experience. I got 300s on pt tests back then. and did really well and it was just a really cool experience so I felt really accomplished once I got back and wasn’t terribly interested in staying in school. NS: alright, so then you went recruiting, and when you went enlisted what did you enlist as? 3 �DS: I was infantry initially and then I re-classed to chaplain assistant, no, no, no, take that back I re-classed as a medic NS: Alright and that was in order to get to your unit in Minneapolis? DS: yeah actually it was in Zumbrota, MN. Yeah I, like I said, did 1 year at university of Wisconsin stout, realized I was kind of floundering around not making progress in any kind of specific direction or towards any major and I decided to go ahead and go back to MN where we did have a family farm. NS: Alright and with your JROTC experience you enlisted as an E3 or and E1, E2? DS: yeah I was able to, because of my ROTC experience in JROTC; I was able to enlist as an E3. NS: Alright then. Can you kind of walk me through your career as far as what duty stations you were assigned to going from the time as you were a recruiter to when you went active duty and from there on? DS: OK well sure well I started in Menominee in the 1/128 infantry and from there I went to MEPS were I would work as a recruiter in the 4th recruiting BN Minneapolis MN and I was a recruiter assigned with duty in Faribault, MN. And did 3 years there as an army recruiter. Once I got done with that I decided to head on over to, actually Korea as my first duty station. I enlisted now of course as a recruiter I was an E5. Back in 86 and when it was time that I joined the army in 1991 active duty the y said you are an E5 today but you will be an E-3 tomorrow administratively because we are certainly not needing to take anybody. Right now and you want to join the active army you gotta go to Korea. I said ok cool. So I went to Korea as an e-1 no excuse me, as an E3 NS: Now were you initially supposed to go to Korea or were there any stipulations? Were you supposed to go to any special school or anything? DS: I had basically what I did as a was a AGR recruiter, the reserve recruiter in the back of the room about a 5 man recruiting station and I knew that the, requirements to go Special Forces, which is what I wanted to do, and I did, I sent up a and did packet for special forces, and I had the requirement was that you had to have 3 years active duty before you could put your special forces packet in, and I had that so I put it in, and they accepted it as far as Ft Benning, Georgia, I mean excuse me, Ft Bragg, North Carolina. NS: Alright so the people that were doing selection, who were running selection already accepted you packet? DS: Absolutely, but the recruiting station, excuse me, the folks at Minneapolis MEPS said hey no we did that quality control, they QC'ed my packet and said you do have the 3 years of experience, but its reserve time. And that’s fine, but it was active duty 3 years. Like I got my 4 �LES every month just like an active duty guy. Because I was on as a recruiter, but that didn’t add up in the recruiting BN as 3 years time. NS: So even though you were reserve, not just 1 weekend a month, 2 weekends a summer, even though you were actually active reserve, working every single day they still didn’t amount that to 3 actual years DS: No, absolutely not, and so hat was fine, but I did tell them, I said look, folks that I was a recruiter just yesterday. By the way dude, you and I we worked together in the streets, and when we went to the county fairs and we put people in boots, but I think you know that hey you made a moral obligation to me to join the army. I said ok, I’ll take whatever you have. I’m fine and I mean I’ve got these wonderful kids living large and would like to go ahead and provide for my family so ill take your e-3 in Korea NS: Alright, and at point in time you were a field medic correct? DS: that is correct NS: Alright so you were already a field medic, so what did you do as a medic in Korea? DS: In Korea I was with the 172 armor and they are what’s called 1st tank down in a place called camp Casey Korea and our mission there at the time was to protect the, any north Korean invasion south of soul. Maybe we were north of soul, but then, we were pretty much considered a speed bump so we would have alerts that were real alerts we would load our tanks up with real rounds and we wouldn’t know if it was real or not, as it is still today. That is a cease fire since the end of the Korean War still currently as we speak and so we would have alerts two or three or four times a month depending on what the activities were. There was training exercises that they either cancel or continue to operate with depending on what the situation is in that peninsula, the Korean peninsula, but no, it was an accent time. I was a medic, and as a medic I was the scout plt medic and I got to go out with the scouts and the mortar plt. And so I d hang out there and they’d have those little quanza huts. Those little shacks. That would have to oval tops and hang out with the mortar medics, I mean with the mortar plt and was just one of the crew, and so we'd go out and do everything the mortars would do plus patch them up. I'd give them shots and I'd give them IV's. If we were humping a bunch of cliques and they were wore out I'd take care of them if they broke their bones, I’d set their bones and take care of business. NS: Alright then, so how long were you in Korea for? DS: Only one year. It’s a one year tour. NS: Alright then, once you came back from Korea where you were then and where did you go to? 5 �DS: Towards the end of the Korea tour I had an assignment to go to Joint Readiness Training Center at fort Polk LA. That’s JRTC and basically the OPFOR. NS: Alright then, and was it at fort Polk at the time or were you guys moving down from a different post or...? DS: Well, actually that’s a good question. I was going from Little Rock Air Force Base. Is where we had most of our people housed and stationed and I was a geographical bachelor, because I was at Polk as they were making the move but also we had a place called Ft. Chaffee Arkansas where JRTC originated. And so there was about a 4 to 6 month period of time9 that we moved from Ft Chaffee Arkansas and made the operations re-station and settle at Ft. Polk LA. For the first time. So I was there for during that time NS: alright and how long were you at fort Polk with JRTC? DS: Probably 3 or 4 years and I was a medic there and I had a good time being a medic there. Because you get a little extra pride being part of the OPFOR. OPFOR is a cool thing. Opposing Forces. And the folks that would rotate through the training were from all parts of the army, and mostly infantry. Light infantry and so the privilege of being at the JRTC is that we were really meant to exercise if you will, the blue forces, or the conventional army prior to them deploying to the theater of operations, and we would have their commander come down six months prior to them showing up and basically set us up for success, because the commander, the full bird colonel, would tell us hey, all their weaknesses and what he wants us to train their guys up on. And we were basically set up to go ahead and exploit their weaknesses so that by the time they got done with the JRTC operation they were ready to deploy and basically kind of gave us a false sense of pride because we would spank them because we got the cheat sheet from their commander but really it was a good time. And we were proud to make sure it was realistic training. NS: Alright, well very nice. So while you were there as a field medic what was it likes? 3 weeks in the field, one week out or... how did it go as far as trying to train people us at JRTC? DS: well it was tough duty. We’d have block leave only twice a year. You’d have it in December for the holidays, and then you’d have it in June and you, you know, 30 days of vacation a year you’d only have 2 weeks in the summer and 2 weeks in the winter. NS: so you couldn’t just take leave when need be? DS: No, absolutely not. And that was a tough deal. You were out, seriously three weeks every month. You’d have 1 week to, up to 1 week to get your sites ready and do your aiming and make sure you are ready to shoot down range with the miles equipment. So you can shoot strait, one shot one kill kind of thing. And make sure that’s s effective, and get ready to go to the field, but then you’d spend at least two and a half weeks in the field NS: so how was that with a family of three at the time? Well three children I guess and a wife. 6 �DS: I was an absentee father no doubt about that. That was a tough thing for having young kids, and really truly we were in the field a long time. I got to tell you when you look back at those days you got to tip your hat to your mother and all you kids that really truly just saw me for basically one week every month max. For three straight years. NS: Did that end up influencing your decision to re-class to chaplain assistant at all? DS: Yeah it sure did. One day I was at the dragoon chapel at 2nd AC chaplain at fort Polk for a briefing and I saw that we were, you know, that the chaplain was going to brief first. And I was still a medic, and I was still hooah, hooah, macho, pound my chest, really I thought my stuff didn’t smell. I remember as a medic doing door gunner missions in the him and Hein-d helicopter from Russia, and we really just felt that we were all that and so for me I was eating nails every breakfast and you know it was a great time, but when I saw this kid, this chaplain assistant be late for his chaplain ten minutes late for this briefing, and he wheels in this audio visual stuff on this cart, and I heard the squeaking wheels and I said, "man! What? That guy gets paid the same as I do as an E5." I said, “Man ill do that. Shoot." and so I did this re-enlistment thing, I said I’ll be a chaplain assistant. That was really the time that got me going, but really I felt like that as a medic, that if I could screen people for the doctor, for the physician’s assistants, I can screen someone for the chaplain. I thought it was time for a break. NS: Roger that. So where did you then get stationed after you got done with Fort Polk and JRTC and you re-classed? DS: Well my first’s station was overseas in Germany. I went to the 130th Engineer Brigade in Hanau, Germany and was an excellent assignment. Those folks were, they really as a brigade, you had your horizontal and your vertical units. You had the 94th engineers was for horizontal. They’d make roads and clear areas and those are the guys that are going to go ahead and take, you had your combat engineers as well that would actually clear Bangalore, they make charges and make sure to clear triple strand concertina for your infantry guys. But no, out of headquarters, in Hanau Germany, we had people in Wiesbaden; we had people in Graff envier, vielseck and all over Germany. So it was this next group of people to be part of. We deployed to Bosnia to Hungary first and then to Bosnia. Croatia is where we had our base camp. It was called task force Pershing. We had taskforce Harman first though before we actually went down below the Sava River, and that was basically a potato patch that we had to convert into a base camp and it was just north of the Sava River. Which is, remember about those times, and is that the Dayton peace agreement was signed by Richard Holbrook, was the main broker for that. He was a guy that just a few years prior to the conflict and peacekeeping operation was in charge of the Olympics and he had just did such a good job doing that, that they thought they could make him this negotiator for the Dayton peace agreements which was what really basically set up the peacekeeping mission between Croatia and Bosnia and Serbia. There had been mass graves developed and the Serbians had killed the Croatians and it was a tough time. And so it was time to go ion. 7 �NS: So what did you do while you were over in Bosnia exactly? DS: It was myself and Chaplain Jim Roberts who really truly really we had a battle space of at least 900 miles. I mean up and down the Sava River. Just about 50 miles north of the Sava and into Bosnia as well below the Sava in a place called slabitski broad and the we had to go and visit soldiers that were deployed in these base camps all over the river if you will, north and south of the river. There was a, as you might remember, December 1995 our soldiers were flooded out on the Sava. We had failed to listen to their caution. The US had wanted to, basically, I’m not saying it was an artificial timeline, but when they said December 1995 was when we’re going to go ahead and build this float bridge, as an engineer we were the ones that put the float bridge in. the Sava river to have the people cross from Croatia into Bosnia, and they couldn’t start without our bridge being built so the 130th engineer BGD under the 1st armor division, we were operationally controlled, we were OPCON to them. They were over us. And that was Gen crouch at the time. But without that bridge we couldn’t start the show, but because we had Richard Holbrook it started 4this particular day and time that this is when we were going to go into Bosnia. I’m saying it was artificial in the sense that it was a day that they chose, but really truly we were shared the folks that were local to Croatia, Bosnia, and the folks that were near the Sava River said don’t be hanging out with your base camps right next to the river here this is our flood season and you will flood out, but because we had this timeline that we had to get this bridge in right then and there, we didn’t listen to the local community and we put our base camp right there to the shores of the Sava River and sure enough we got flooded out so some folks may remember pictures where these GP large tents and people's duffle bags floating down the river and all that kind of stuff. That really did happen. And it’s because we were ready to go ahead and execute the mission without actually, really truly listening to the intelligence NS: Alright and when you were in Bosnia did you every have to go through and visit any of these villages that were ethnically cleansed? DS: Yes we did and obviously any time we would go from north to south we would. I remember going through the demilitarized zone a number of times and it was just a very sobering experience because, I was still fairly young and idealistic and I couldn’t believe here in modern society that people were still killing each other in such a graphic and hateful way. When you ethnically cleanse a place it meant the Serbians would go up into these Croatians villages and they would rape and kill, and basically many times they would rape somebody’s wife in front of the husband and their male children, or the male and female children and then after that they would kill the father and maybe the sons that are old fighting age sons. If they were above 19 or 20. And then of course they really, they cleansed the blood with Serbian blood and they mixed it so that these folks are now going to have their Croatian babies any more whatever, they’re going to have Serbian babies. You know what I’m saying? 8 �And so it was just something right out of WWII to see the devastation of these villages and there was as symbol on each one of these homes that had been ethnically cleansed that looked like a tic tac toe board. You just draw a cross the top would be a CC and then underneath it would be a backwards CC and basically that was a symbol that said hey, we have already been to this house. We have taken care of business. We have ethnically cleansed that and we've moved on, and so it was about time, and I got to tell you, and I got to tip my hat to even president Clinton at the time who, you know, America hadn’t gotten into this thing. We were hoping that Europe would take care of their own back yard. And they just didn’t. I mean this stuff could have crossed even into Germany had it been unchecked. But basically the US truly scaeved off more devastation than had already I don’t know how many millions of people had been affected by this, but at least hundreds of thousands of people. And those that were killed we really should be proud for putting a stop to it and being there for them, so they can go ahead and get back. NS: All right then, so you went to Bosnia when you were stationed with the engineers in Germany. How long were you in Germany for and when did you end up leaving? DS: I think I was in Germany for about three years for sure. Probably a little over three years because of the conflict, and from Germany we left and we went to a place called Ft Bragg, NC where I was assigned to the 1/504th Parachute Infantry Regiment. 1st brigade. I believe that was back in, it was 1998 sure enough. August of 1998. And obviously I hadn’t gone to airborne school yet so once I got there I packed. Well, actually I had been airborne as a, the guy at Ft Polk, so yeah I was airborne, but I had never... NS: So you were still a “five jump chump?” DS: No, I actually jumped with the AN2 colt. That was like a Russian biplane so as an OPFOR guy I had jumped a number of times out of this wooded aircraft. That was able to fly under the radars, so no I guess I just went up at Ft Bragg at 1st BGD and was ready to jump with those guys, so… NS: All right, so who were you with again at Ft. Bragg? DS: I was with the 504th PIR, parachute Infantry Regiment that, I was a “red devil,” what you got to understand is that each one of those brigades at the time was 1st 2nd and 3rd Brigade 1st bat, would be re, 2nd bat would be white, 3rd bat would be blue, and it was red white and blue, that’s the kind of the gig, so I was the 1st of the 504th, so I was a red devil and devils in the baggie pants is what we were. Devils in baggie pants. NS: where does that name come from? DS: Well, a German general that got spanked during Germany, I mean WWII rather. And he was so amazed at the guts and the audacity of these American soldiers that really truly as you know, when we did that airborne operation even during the Normandy invasion that we were all over the place and the wind had blown us to all corners of the earth, so little bands of 82nd soldiers 9 �would meet up with each other and say hey Jim, hey Bo, ok lets go ahead and do this thing because they just really weren’t landing where they were supposed to and they fought in such a ferocious way that this German didn’t know if he was surrounded by legions of just small pockets of guys, but he said well these 82nd guys they're devils in baggie pants. NS: Alright so you were with the 82nd, the devils in baggie pants was it? Were you with any other units while you were at fort Bragg? DS: Sure I was a medic with the, actually I was a chaplain assistant with the 1/504th, and then we went down the road to the 1/17th Cav., which was an air Cav., the only air Cav. in the army at the time, and then spent some excellent time with those guys because we have Simmons army air field and we would do ministry with the soldiers at the air field and up and down Ardennes Street at Fort Bragg. Those guys are excellent. They were always; their operations were only 2nd to the folks at Fort Campbell, the 160th SOR. I thought the 82nd's aviation Brigade was just one excellent group of people to serve with and holy people to my left and right. But then from there I went from the 1/17 Cav. to the 16th MP brigade which is also an airborne unit and that was right there on Ft. Bragg and spent a couple of years there taking care of MPs and it’s a whole different group of people and they're proud group as well. They are usually the first in and the last out when they have to deploy and do operations. And then after the 16th pm Brigade I did some 18th Airborne Corps work and was assigned the 18th airborne corps. Specifically I was the NCOIC of the Waters center for family live and religious education. And so I was the NCOIC of the place where they do the family counseling and so forth on folks. NS: So that was your stay at Fort Bragg. From 1998 until 2000… DS: 2006 NS: At that point in your time what was your next duty station? DS: My next duty station was the Multinational Force Observers (MFO) as part of taskforce Sinai in Sinai Egypt. NS: Alright, and was that a deployment of was it a duty station? DS: That was a duty station so it was one that they had been in for about 20 years they had been doing that peace between Egypt and Israel. Jimmy carter actually put together some people it wasn’t NATO it wasn’t the UN. He’d pick up the phone during one of his peace initiative, Middle East peace initiatives, and he just asked a number of countries; I think it was up to 23 or 24 countries. You know, people like Colombia, Canada, kiwis, we have our place...Norway, they were a part of it, they were our great liaison, liaison officers were noggin, but you had about 24 different contingents right there and they still are there that they monitor the border between Egypt and Israel and just to get a picture there is something called the gulf of Aqaba. The Sinai peninsula is a v-shape kind of a thing, comes out into a little point, and north end by the Gaza strip is a place called Al Gorah Egypt and that’s North camp. Near the Mediterranean 10 �Sea. at the very tip of the Sinai peninsula is a place called Sharm el Sheikh Egypt and that’s where they do all the peace talks and people come together and do international things but mainly it’s really a resort town right there at the tip of Sinai so I got a chance to learn some scuba diving and have a good time there as well. But our job was to go ahead and be with those people that were manning the observation post overlooking the Gulf of Aqaba and also on the mainland of the Sinai Peninsula. And out mission, chaplain, father Matt Pawlikowski and myself we would go up and down, and we would drive. It’s a six-hour trip from north camp to south camp. We would do it twice a week and make sure to stop along the way at all these observation posts and there they would have a five man station at all these PS's where one of the soldiers was a cook. They would always have 2 dogs and the other guys would shift off and do the observing with binoculars of the Gulf of Aqaba and basically really truly making sure that Israel didn’t have their F-16s too close, and then turn around and make sure that Egypt didn’t have their T-72s too close, because that’s what would always escalate the force between the two countries that would cause them to have conflict. NS: And so being in Egypt as a chaplain assistant did you have any major religious events that you guys were able to take part in? Because I know that Mount Sinai was there and I’m sure, do you have any experiences with indigenous peoples? DS: We sure did. We had an excellent time in downtown Cairo. They have Coptic Christian churches throughout downtown Cairo you would never know it until you go down there, but they are very tolerant and very mindful that even though it’s an Islamic state if you will, that the Christian community has been there for years and years, and again there is that mount Sinai and it’s the legend and folklore has it that that's where Moses received the ten commandments. So we took about 19 retreats with soldiers from the whole contingent up to Mount Sinai and we would eat with the Bedouins and we would lay down over night and wake up early, about 4 in the morning, and climb all the way to the tip of Mount Sinai and wait for the sun to rise. And that was almost like a Christian Mecca if you will. Unless can get in trouble saying something like that. Ha-ha. But no, people from all over the world, Russia, everywhere, they’d come up there. I even had some vodka with somebody on the top of Mount Sinai once. You can’t say no to a guy that’s Russian offering. You say roger hooah and thank you. NS: Now how did you get up there? Were you escorted by people or have somebody leading the way, or how does that work? DS: Well basically we could take camels if you chose, we gave people an option. You could take a camel from St. Catherine’s monastery, which is an old monastery that’s been there for thousands of years. They still have monks there that were doing what they did a thousand years ago. And they had the young kids that would, these Bedouins, they were pretty resourceful. And they had these different Bedouin families that specialized in different things. 11 �Some people were the camel’s guys. Some people were the kids that sold the rocks to you so you could go ahead and get some money for their tribe and sell their rock. You’d split in half and there would be a nice, different color rocks and so forth, but no this was a well organized tourist trap if you will and it was just a very fun time to go ahead and have a bit of history. NS: Now I have met Father Matt and I know he likes to wear his little catholic what's the word for it? DS: Oh, the golebia. Yeah! Sure enough. NS: So being in Egypt with predominantly Islamic folks what was it like walking down the streets in Cairo with a man dressed in that with a bunch of Islamic folks chilling around. Were they respectful or... DS: It was amazingly, it really did open my eyes because I’m a chaplain assistant, were there to protect the chaplain, so I thought initially that of course id have to protect the chaplain for being in an Islamic country wearing Christian garb just as if he’s down in the middle of the Vatican and, but surprisingly to me, those people even in an Islamic country especially, they recognized father matt as a holy man because he had enough audacity and he was brave enough to put it on his sleeve and say this is what I am. I’m a catholic priest. And you know what; it really said something to me. it said hey, be what you are, be proud of who you are, and actually be bold enough to preach your theology, whichever it is, he wasn’t out there trying to apostatize. He was just being himself and he wore sandals and he wore this man-dress called a galabia with a white collar and there was no doubt that those folks, instead of chastising him they just l the only time were really in danger is when we would go downtown to the Cairo university and the students, the young students, still who are full of vim vigor and vitality and all bubbly. They might have a little hackling here and there but for the most part the old, the elders would respect him and of course he would respect them. That was a cool time. NS: Very nice, so; after you stayed with the Multinational Force and Observers in Egypt, you came back home and then what? DS: Well, then we were headed on back to a place called; I think it was Fort Wainwright, Alaska. Holy Buckets, I did a COT, Consecutive Active- it's called a COT, Consecutive Oversea Tour. So I'm sitting at in Egypt, right before you know they told me where to go next, and I talked to your Mom and I said, “Ma, do you want to go to dang, Alaska or do you want to go to Hawaii-they're giving me a choice?" And she said, “Well, let’s go ahead and go to Alaska". I must have... NS: Why didn't you say Hawaii? DS: She; she wishes she did... NS: [Audible Laughter] 12 �DS: At this point, she wishes she would have said, Hawaii. But, she says hey, go ahead and go to Alaska and sure enough we went from; directly - I mean first you and the Family were back at Fort Bragg waiting for me to have to get done with that Egypt tour and then you joined us up there for winter in Alaska. NS: you came back and drove U-Haul trucks multiple trips from North Carolina to Alaska DS: Psycho man, it was psycho NS: So, how were you stationed with up in Alaska? DS: I was with the 4/14th CAV and those guys were part of 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team. That was at the beginning of when they started fielding Stryker Brigade Combat Teams. We were one of first or second folks to go on in there as Stryker Brigade. Then we went to a place called Rawah, which is on the Syrian border in Iraq. That was really my first real deployment for war. The other ones were peace keeping and people were dying a little bit when we were there and we were doing more peace keeping than we were taking the fight to the enemy back in the Bosnia days. But this was the first time we really did take the fight to the enemy. NS: Alright, now before we actually get into your deployment to Camp Rawah, Iraq-there is one story that I recall that I'd like you to recap on of your stay at JRTC when you guys were getting ready to be deployed over there and you had to go down and support the border patrol down in Texas and I recall a Medivac coming to pick up some of your guys and you thinking it something different... DS: Oh, you're a jerk... Yea, here's the gig okay see, because I was a Reagan era soldier, and I forgot to be a situational aware about the world events, and we were preparing to go to war and had to get ready to go to JRTC, sure enough, I mean- and you can imagine how proud I was because I used to be an OPFOR JRTC soldier and, well guess what? Here we had this Hind D helicopter flying overhead getting ready to land in our position. NS: And that's a Russian Helicopter DS: It is a Russian Helicopter... And I instinctively raise my M-16, actually it was an M-4; I raise it and I pronounced and announce to everybody, "Red air, red air, red air! Get down!" NS: And what does Red Air mean? DS: Well that means any enemy aircraft in the area; and it was coming in and so we got to go ahead and take it. I was shooting at that thing. It was a bad deal. It was a mild scare, was a mild scare, you know... NS: And so you are shooting blanks at it... DS: Yes. 13 �NS: And so, what was this helicopter actually coming to land for? DS: MEDIVAC - He is now a coalition partner; and I didn't know. I mean here it is two thousand three or four here and I'm getting ready to go and I'm thinking the Russians are still our enemy. I guess the Soviet Union had already packet it up so yeah... NS: So you end up shooting down your own helicopter coming to pick up wounded soldiers. DS: I was highly admonished but uh, the old guys were proud I got to tell you. The old crusty sergeant majors thought I was cool. NS: Alright, so you were training up to go to Iraq and so when you guys were stationed in Iraq, it was camp Rawah you say, where is that in relation to, you know, Syria, the rivers… DS: Yes, yes, yes…we were right on the banks of the Euphrates River and we were pretty much in south western Iraq near the Syrian border and out job was to keep... NS: And that’s the An Bar Province? DS: Yes, Al Anbar Province. Sure enough, and by the way you got to know that was a tough area that had been given and taken back and given and taken back a number of times but we were fortunate enough to be taken away from Mosul which was where most of the 172nd Stryker Brigade guys were up in Mosul and that was a tough area as well. That took a while to win over and to tame if you will, but the Al Anbar Province was truly out in the dirt. We were housed in what was called a combat outpost and there are different distinctions in the army. You have basically it starts down at a combat outpost and it goes to a base... not a base. You have a, I’m pausing as I’m thinking here. Combat outpost then you have, what do they call those things? Balad, well FOBs yeah well yeah we were in a FOB, but a combat outpost is in a kind of remote area where you really truly have your triple strand concertina wire around you and a bunch of sand and that’s pretty much, you're in the middle of nowhere, and you are doing the best you can to provide security for yourself. But it’s a word. I got to tell you I’m drawing a blank on what's after combat outpost. Then you have, like Balad was a full base. Would be before Balad there's another term that we use, but it’s basically a remote area that is not heavily fortified and so that’s what that was. NS: Alright, and so who were you guys technically under while you were over there if the rest of your guys were over in Mosul? Who were you underneath? DS: I was under the Marine Corps, their 2nd... NS: 2nd battalion (meant to say division) 14 �DS: Yeah it was the 2nd...well they're stationed out of fort, actually Camp Lejeune it was at Jacksonville, North Carolina. And they were there... NS: Across the border from you guys? Or across the river? DS: No they were right there with us. They owned us. We were wearing kind of furry stuff sometimes because it was the best we could get at the time. We, instead of wearing the black furry kind of stuff we would wear that kind of tan. But those guys in the 2nd Marine Expeditionary force 2nd MEF they’d call them, were really our higher headquarters because we had been separated out and we were in their battle space. And so it was exciting because those guys really took care of us in an extreme way. When they, they do Military Decision Making Process discussions a little different than the army. And it’s not as drawn out, now MDMP is a very important to do process... NS: so what is that? DS: Military Decision Making Process is where you have IPR and discussions NS: so that's like Troop Leading Procedures, but for higher? DS: yup, for higher and making sure that we know what the Operations Order is going to be and how to proceed with whatever battle and whatever operation that we're going embark on and it’s just a very excellent way in which everyone knows what they are going to do before they get out there and do it, but again the marines, those guys would just grab a ladder and go knock out, knock doors down and take names later and so I guess that’s just the way they fight. But what was beautiful about it is they supported one another in the greatest way and we made sure that if we needed something we would share with those guys and we'd get whatever equipment and whatever personnel or whatever the logistics we needed in just a heartbeat from the marine corps. They just did a great job out there and you got to know that the Al Anbar Province was pretty much; not that it's really won, but was won over well before most of the other area in Iraq. And those guys, we took the fight to the enemy and they took care of business. NS: Alright, now I know that you as a chaplain assistant, especially when you are deployed, you have multiple, you have two major sets of tasks of what you are supposed to do . Can you run me through what you do when you are actually at the base, or at the FOB, and what you do when you are actually out on the other side of the fence? DS: Ok, so you are saying outside of the wire and inside the wire. our job is to collocate, as a chaplain assistant and the chaplain we are mainly the folks that, we collocate with the medics so the battalion aid station is where we would hang out and those were the people we deployed with when we were outside the wire. We had operation cold steel, which was a five or seven day operation that we were extensive with the medics and we would set up an antenna on the Stryker vehicle and we would be at the 15 �command post and we would take incoming casualties and the fight would be right there, you know, in the same area, as where we were. There was lots of death. We had some, we had 24 memorials by the time we left that place, and so we lost a lot of our friends who fought valiantly a lot of those guys got lost by improvised explosive devices and EFP's. Those are the ones that would kind of go across and melt into, the copper would kind of melt and go through the vehicle and almost just pierce through the whole vehicle. NS: and did your screens around the Strykers help at all against those? DS: Yes. It was great. They had protective kind of a metal bar system around the Stryker vehicle that was really added after the fact. When we trained at JRTC and in New Mexico to get ready to go we didn’t have those on and by the time we got into theater they did some retrograde work and they made sure to install all those kind of fancy looking things that look like a big fence around our whole... NS: So like a big cage around the Stryker? DS: And so then basically RPGs and stuff could explode before they would try to penetrate any of the hard shell of the vehicle NS: All right, and how effective was that? DS: It was great, very effective. It was tough to go through some small streets because it would make you a little more bulky and you didn’t train up with that bulky vehicle until you got there. and so these small roads and stuff, so you were basically driving through places and have to go over curbs, if you will, or in through the villages where you otherwise would have been able to drive, but I can see why they had Bradleys and why they have smaller vehicles and then even the Stryker. But it's effective. It was an effective delivery system. NS: How were the Strykers able to hold up to IED's? Were they able to for the most part? DS: I really believe they were an improvement of course to the up armored HUMMVEEs, were a lot more vulnerable than the Stryker vehicles. But I have to regretfully tell you that the Stryker was developed with a flat hull, or bottom of the hull, rather than a V-shaped hull. And often times when you have five rounds stacked two or three deep in an IED and you have to drive over that they explosion is such that if you have a pancake kind of bottom or bottom of your vehicle, that it will take a really brunt of the explosion. And some of those Stryker vehicles did look like their sister APC's from Vietnam era and they were just blown wide open like a tin can. And so after we’d have to go through and extract our folks and even clean up afterwards, it was just a pretty traumatic even to go ahead and see that even as strong as we thought we had the Stryker vehicle, it was, it was, it was relatively vulnerable, and hopefully the army goes and does the V shaped hull instead of a flat bottom hull. 16 �NS: Alright then, so while you were inside and with the medics trying to take care of things, you, having been a former medic, did you do any 4 of the medic tasks, or were you generally there for moral support and trying to help people out emotionally? DS: Yeah, my job truly really was to be there with the chaplain at the head of the patient and to really get religious, I mean we wanted to make sure that if you were a Baptist kid or if you were a catholic kid, I would, you know, make sure to get a catholic priest for you to say last rights if indeed you were expectant, and we had routine, priority patients, but our place as a chaplain and chaplain assistant, most part we were at the aid station or even out in the field when things were really happening, next to the patient, and depending on their injuries we would act accordingly, but truly I did a lot of stuff. I would draw zylacane in the middle of the aid station and make sure to shoot that up and id make sure to hold the head up while they were bandaging folks. I didn’t do major invasive therapy but I certainly was there with people when they were getting fixed up. NS: Alright, so your chaplain never got mad at you for hanging out with medics too much? DS: He did. Oh yeah he did. He told me once that, listen you're a chaplain assistant. You’re not a medic any more. And he said that he wants me to do more chaplain work, and I said sir, define what chaplain work is. I said that the priorities here is to get these guys well and make sure that we take care of those who have been injured so try and explain to me what you mean. And he was a little discouraged a couple times because I was more of a medic than I was a chaplain assistant for him. So, but we worked that out later. I’m sure we figured that out a little bit later. NS: Alright, and your chaplain's name at the time was what? DS: Chaplain James Foster, and sure enough NS: And so when he was, your primary goal with him, as well, is to protect him because chaplains can't carry weapons. Correct? DS: That is correct. NS: So how often did he go out with you, and you have to pretty much just chill out with him? DS: Yeah, no, no. Well we were together like, we were tied together pretty much at the hip. Literally, especially when we were at the outpost for 12 of the 16 months. And then four of the following months in Baghdad we went from Rawah to Baghdad. Every time we were outside the wire I was with him. And even inside the wire I stayed in the chapel with him. The last, or the back one third of the chapel which I made, we put together, G and I, you know, it was a HP large kind of deal that the back one third was where we world have our bunks, if you will. Our cots and administrative area and the front three quarters would be the sanctuary. But one thing that was challenging was truly that, and we’re proud, he and I are both proud, but really I was at his heal and he was at my heal as far as our bunks touched each other, and we were there 24/7. And I would actually on occasion, when things got to where down time inside the wire I’d 17 �run away to medics and kind of chill out myself. Just to get some time away. Because even a good marriage is ruined if you can’t take a break. NS: Alright, so were you ever able to, or did you ever go on any missions as far as raiding through and making sure that there weren’t any weapons that there shouldn't be, or kicking in doors or any sweeps like that? DS: Yup. Quite a bit. And we would go out with the assassin troop. You had Alpha troop that did most of the cordon and search is basically what it was. You were cordoning off a certain area if the town and we were actually in the Sadr city they called it. Al Sadr was the religious cleric that was the person that even currently is still there. NS: Not is this when you were in Baghdad or were you still in Camp Rawah? DS: We did both. Actually in Rawah we had more time out knocking down doors and taking care of business. We went out once with this Special Forces team from combat North, or COP North, Combat Outpost North, which is near the Syrian border to electrical plants, because it was very routine for those insurgents to want to disrupt things to go ahead and pay people at the electrical plant to drop power so that they could do their business and disrupt things and take their fight to the enemy. But we would actually go to the power plants a number of times with Special Forces Teams and walk up and down the streets and do our searches for the bad guys if you will. NS: So how was that working with the SF? DS: They were great people. Those guys, they are laid back and they take care of business. And they have long hair and wear a different kind of clothes, and they got a different kind of communication equipment, and they build their own bathrooms and they have their own plumbing. They know how to take care of themselves in any situation. It was gun when we worked with those guys. NS: Very nice. So I would just like to recap and look back here. So you started off with Infantry. Then you re-classed medic, and in both of those things you are doing more field training and things of that sort. But then you went chaplain and you are doing a lot more administrative things, nut even as a chaplain assistant... when you were deployed, you were able to do some more kickass hooah things rather than just sit at a FOB and do nothing. DS: Absolutely. No, it was really great fun. I knocked down a bunch of doors. I mean I’ve done 20 or 30 doors myself on a given day, and it wasn’t just to be a jerk for no reason, but we had to make sure that they had 1 AK-47 and no more than 2 clips; I mean magazines to toss in there. If they had 3 or 4 weapons we’d take the other two, and we weren’t going to keep them so they weren’t able to defend themselves, but we made sure that they, there was a rule at the time that they could only have so much so that we could start making control. NS: Did you guys ever have to dispose of any weapons caches or find any? 18 �DS: Yeah we found many weapons caches and one of the biggest finds was by our assassin troop, or alpha troop. And we did a lot of control destination. We’d pile them up into a big area and just have the EOD guys come and blow them up in place. And many others we'd stick in big long connexes and they'd be full of RPG rounds. You’d have your explosives, the stuff they make IED's with, and AK-47s that were gold plated from the Saddam days. NS: That just hurts to hear that you had to destroy that DS: ha-ha. Yeah that was not a good deal. I’m sure people took some trophies home; o wouldn’t say I knew for sure but I… [Audible laughter] DS: But no, we did destroy most of that stuff because we were very remote and it would be too risky to go and ship most of it away only to have somebody stop a convoy and steal it back so we just, basically destroyed a bunch of that stuff in place. NS: So you say that initially for the first 12 months, that you were in Camp Rawah and then you ended up in Baghdad. Now how did that take place? Was it just from one to the other or mass confusion, or what was the story behind going back for another four months? DS: Well I think it is very important to mark that there were many soldiers during that time, that it was called the surge, and because the surge had started, first of all, the first part of our time in Rawah was to get people where they could vote, and we had to go ahead and close very heavily, the insurgence forces that were coming across the Syrian border to disrupt this thing called freedom and free elections, so the first half of our mission was to make sure that these people could vote, the local Iraqis. Ok, and make sure that it was safe for them to vote. And so it was a great accomplishment when they did make their first initial vote for who they wanted to represent Iraq, for those presidents and those other tribal members, who's going to go ahead and for the first time in their lives, represent them as a free nation, and so when we did the cordon searches all across the Al Anbar province and we won the hearts and minds of the local tribes and communities and emons. It was just a great thing for us to accomplish that, so the second half of this was going to be the year later, the second vote that was going to go ahead and establish who the provincial government was going to be. and so we were caught up in what was called the surge, and the secretary of defense, Dick Chaney, the honorable Dick Chaney, he picked our unit and about, you know, ten other units saying hey look, I know you've been here for 12, ( quick talking and clarification of the Secretary of Defense) No, it was Rumsfeld. Thank you very much, yeah, yeah; Donald Rumsfeld was the secretary of defense. I apologize. And Donald Rumsfeld had decided that, hey guess what. You guys have been there for a year, but guess what. You’re going to be there for four more months, so stick around. And at the time 172nd Stryker Brigade, out of Alaska had sent about 200 soldiers home. They had already made it back to Fairbanks, Alaska and spent time with their wives and kids. 19 �NS: And the people that got home first were the people who had newborn kids who were married right before they deployed... DS: Yeah, and certain units that were in Mosul that had already packed up a couple of things and they were on a cycle and they were scheduled to return. And so those guys were just a couple, 400 folks. 200 to 400 folks that made it back to Fairbanks. Some were still getting ready at Balad Air Base to go ahead and take off from Iraq to go home, and they were stopped initially. And then those of so that were out there at the Combat Outpost, of course we didn’t even get cleared. We had actually turned in our Sapi plates and... NS: Alright, so you guys were already turning in your gear and then they told you guys that, Oh no, you guys are staying for another 4 months, and you are going to Baghdad. DS: Yes. Exactly. So the commander of our unit came to the chapel and made his announcement to everybody and said hey, listen, I know this is a part of what we signed up for, and the president of the United States has decided that we haven’t finished here and that a matter of fact that we are going head to extend and head on out to a different area of operation until we take care of some business up there. NS: I can imagine some people were probably bummed about that? DS: Oh yeah. Very Bummed, and it was a tough time, and that’s the human element of things. I was actually proud sitting there, even though it was bad news, it was pretty cool to see how people sucked it up and drove on, and accepted it, but even over the course of time when we all got back together, those who had already gotten back to Alaska, were flying and turn around and come back, to find that we lost still more soldiers after they came back. That was just a heart wrenching thing. You know. We all know as soldiers that that is part of the dead, that you go and fight and some people are going to come home and some are not, but boy, when you are done with your tour of 12 and you have to come back for the four more and you lose four or five more people. that was just a tough, it was, not that the first people you lost were any different, I mean it was always a loss, but boy it was even more of a difficult psychological, emotional loss to lose those other soldiers once we did have to come back for the four more. NS: Alright, and then I know that you shared with them a couple different things, previously, about certain people that would get made fun of for, you know, certain things and they ended up being the ones that got more Purple hearts. Can you tell me a little more about that? DS: That’s a young soldier that, even during training, we were in JRTC and even down in the Mexican border when were down there in Playas, New Mexico, in the Stryker vehicles ready to go and learn how to use the new equipment there was a young guy...I forget his name. I’ll remember it here in a second, but he was always, people were always giving him a hard time because he was the sergeant major's driver. And it was no-one's fault to be a sergeant major’s driver. It’s a very honorable position. But often times these other tankers and these other scouts 20 �would give this guy a hard time because he’s driving the sergeant major around all the time and they are basically, people are professionally jealous of the guy because he’s close to the top dog, but yet they still think he's kind of kissing up a little bit as well, and his name is Rasche. Sgt Rasche. And Rasche had to be the sergeant major’s driver, and a matter of fact it came to light that Rasche was a virgin. He had never had relations, and this and that, so these other macho Cav. guys were always poking fun at him saying he was a wimp and he's a virgin and what’s wrong with him, and all that kind of stuff in society just ripping in each other and he had a rough time. and I just, as a chaplain assistant I was all being cool to him because I knew people were just busting his but, you know, and I’d say hey man this is un-cool. You’re a good guy. I hope all is well and how are you doing today? Trying to encourage him because people were just being un-cool to him initially. Well it turned out that sergeant Rasche once deployed, and three quarters the way through the mission, truly he was part of I think Bravo troop, and he was a driver of a Stryker and he would dismount and he would go and take the fight to the enemy when we’d have to do operations, and inconsequently he'd blown up a couple of times, but he had also taken direct fire and there was a recipient. He was a three Purple Heart recipient by the time he was done with that thing. And I always thought that as an example as a lesson to tell other soldiers to say, he look it, you never know the metal of a man until you put him to test, and he was an excellent soldier. It turned out that he was a great warrior. So I’m proud that he had three purple hearts and he had lots of success after people ribbed him for being a virgin. Ha-ha-ha NS: Very nice. Now I know that throughout Iraq and Afghanistan, and other places that we are deployed to there are a bunch of mixed feelings towards the US, and even though the media in the US doesn’t like to highlight anything good we do build schools for women and children, and make a positive impact over there. Did you guys have any major impact positive or negative on the local people? DS: Well we sure did. We built a number of schools, provided electricity to a number of the schools in the area, and of course you remember the infrastructure was the big bargaining chip. Either you are going to go with Al-Qaida or the insurgent folks because they’re going "take care of you". Or you go with the US who's going to take care of you, and it was always truly our intent to show that we were there for them. And a matter of fact given the opportunity we would build their schools and give them water and drill wells and provide electricity, and provide infrastructure, and provide school for girls, and make sure they understand the can go ahead and be part of society. And yeah, I think we won that piece quite handily at least initially. NS: Alright then, DS: Like you say, you just didn’t hear about it back home. 21 �NS: Yeah, and that's one thing that I really dislike about the media today that doesn’t like to show anything good we do because it doesn’t sell. DS: Yeah. It's not sexy, but it's real. And I guess you know what I really got to share with you. I think that if you were to talk to a Vietnam veteran even now after all these years, that if you were to go back to Vietnam even today they got sky rises. They’re doing good capital improvement to things, they're making money. They’re doing great things. And it took 40 years to do it. The Vietnam vets are, unless e goes back to Vietnam, doesn’t know the effect that he might have had. But those young kids that were alive when that Vietnam vet was doing his piece there, and when they shared their chocolate or candy bar with the local kid or whatever, just showed restraint when they otherwise could have blown somebody away, but they were being human and they were being compassionate, and they were doing the best they can, I just hope and trust and pray that 30 or 40 years from now maybe some of those young kids that we saw might come around and say you know what. I don’t necessarily want to grow up to be a little baby insurgent and blow stuff up. I sure remember that American guy that was cool to me and cool to my family. And there were a lot of American soldiers that were great ambassadors for our nation while they were deployed as soldiers. Men and women alike. NS: Now I know that while you were deployed there would be different checkpoints whether it is manned by you guys or whether it is manned by the Iraqi army. What kind of relationship did checkpoints have with people that were there? And was it more positive or was it negative or how did the checkpoints... DS: Ok. well I believe that we have IA's and IP's you’ve got Iraqi army that we trained up and we were always partners with, now there was a time at which they were so new and they were so fledgling that you had to really be taking the lead on each mission that we'd go out on but we did train them and we actually, Rawah was one of those training areas, as kind of a basic training for the Iraqi army folks. The Iraqi Police, it was still the same. It was a mission of MITT teams that would go out there and train the Iraqi police. The marines really did a good job training those guys. And we would also, even initially, have a smaller representation of Iraqi Army guys, but then in the inner city of Baghdad, the Iraqi Police that we would do missions with. The Cordon search missions in the city of Baghdad would be in conjunction with the Iraqi Police as well and Iraqi Army. So all three entities would have a command post and we'd make sure that we have our OPORDER like you do in the regular American army and make sure the intent of the mission. Sometimes it would backfire because as you know, sometimes you don’t know who your friends are even though you train them up. It was curious, on occasion that you'd run into some IED's that you would wonder how in the world they knew we were coming. And you would have to just speculate that someone from the inside tipped somebody off that we were coming to their town. Sadr City, one of our missions was to go down town and go to the hospitals and the morgues to find out how much the, they would kill each other, it was amazing. You know. These different religious sects would be killing each other. 22 �It wasn’t force on force American troops killing folks. It was them killing each other. and one of our missions was to go Downtown Baghdad and check out the hospitals and get the numbers and the morgues and the hospital, who had just passed away or who was dying and so we'd come back to report, and we took on some small arms fire and engaged the enemy but we were just three Stryker vehicles. So we instead of just staying to fight what could have been overwhelming odds if we did, have to pull back and that was one of the fires we took. and then another time we took some fire was outside the boarder road of Sadr City itself which is in Baghdad, and what's interesting about Sadr City is that we used to be able to go in and out of that place and there was a time that we had to kind of barricade them in and have controlled access to the place because we were trying to effect the insurgency. But there was a time there that we also took fire. We responded to an IED, or ESP explosion of a MP vehicle, and while we were doing that we took some fire from inside Sadr City. NS: Alright, now when you say "took fire" did you take fire while you were dismounted and out of your Stryker vehicles... DS: Yes NS: Or while inside? DS: Both times. We were dismounted and we were on foot. And we were far away from our Stryker vehicles and we still had the drivers back at the, the driver and one other guy back at the Strykers so we had to Dity Mau, so we would shoot and run, and shoot and run. So not proud to say that, nothing like we just overtook a bunch of stuff. Not in my personal experience. We did have to go ahead and get back to the vehicles and get secure, so... NS: Okay then, and how was that? Just having bullets fly over your head. How surreal of a feeling was it? Because you train all your life and you train and train, at JRTC. You know what’s going to be coming, and oh I might be shot at and stuff but what was running through your head as you actually had bullets whizzing by you? DS: It was real, and you make sure you count for your people. Make sure everyone's safe and you're moving together and there is good coordination, and you are talking with folks. And you get on the radio once you get back in there and make sure that your higher knows what’s going down, and keeping people informed at the Tactical Operations Center and training does kick in. There are people that are calm. There are people that are not so calm, but guess what, it’s a pretty cool experience to see that the training does kick in and people do keep their head. And it was, your adrenaline goes up and it's real but knew I had a job to do and I had to protect my chaplain. He doesn’t have a weapon so I’m running sideways and backwards and checking eh rooftops as we egress. 23 �NS: Right and I know that you shared with me, before, that you had been in the midst of some of this stuff. You had a young lower enlisted guy hopping on the radios and, calm as could be, shooting out nine-lines and things of that sort. How was that? DS: I think it's great. It’s just amazing to watch. These are some. We’ve got the best-trained soldiers in the world. There’s no doubt about it. And men and women alike are, when we have a disabled vehicle, or an IED explosion, young, hundred and twenty-pound female soldiers were yanking two hundred and fifty pound guys out of vehicles. And that's when you realize there are no guys and girls. A guy is not better than a girl and all this chauvinistic stuff goes right out the window because that’s a soldier and she is a brother and sister in arms. And she's way cool. But no, I was always impressed when these young soldiers being able to get on the radio in the midst of a firefight, and be calm and talking to the TOC, and making sure that they gave coordination, or they'd call in fire or have the air force come in and give us some direct support or when we'd call artillery, they’d give us indirect support as well. And these guys were, man they were just doing great work. NS: And I’d like to clarify, TOC is a what? DS: Tactical Operation Center NS: Alright. So is there anything else that you feel like we missed that we haven't gone over quite yet about your deployment to Camp Rawah and in Baghdad that you would like to cover right now? DS: No. I think that we’ve hit pretty much all this stuff. I just think it's an honor to be hanging around after all these years. And I got to tell you, we do need to get back and get back to training. We've been fighting for 10 years and it doesn’t mean there are not some quality folks that have been fighting for 10 years, but it'd be fun to get back to an environment in which we did like we did in the past and train up and get our soldiers used to training side by side with those folks that they will eventually deploy with. Instead of all of the sudden get a new guy. Off you go and go to the fight. And so I think that it's time we go ahead and train our soldiers and get in that mode for a while, and be ready for the next challenge. NS: Alright then, so after you got back from Iraq at the time you left, your family did an Advanced Removal of Dependents down to Fort Bragg, seeing as though that's where you were going to come back to, so you came back to Bragg and who were you with at Bragg? DS: I came back to Fort Bragg I was with USASOC... NS: Which is? DS: Well, United States Army Special Operation Command, headquartered there at Fort Bragg, and I was with the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade. And that was actually a new; normally the Civil Affairs were USACASOT, United States Army Civil Affairs Special Operations Command. 24 �Thats a reserve group of people and civil affairs have traditionally been reserve guys, but this was the first active duty brigade of civil affairs here at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. So it was an honor to be a plank holder. You know a first guy that’s part of that unit. So that was fun. NS: What exactly does the civil affairs do? DS: The civil affairs, their job is to go and win the hearts and minds of our enemy. And we do it in a way of basically, building schools, building electricity, building wells, and doing all those kinds of things, that after we go in with force, is picking up the pieces afterwards and making great relations with the local community. Wherever we are, whether it is Chad or Male in Africa or whether it be Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary, or whether it be Iraq or Afghanistan. The Civil Affairs job is to bridge that gap and to establish relationships with local communities. NS: Alright then. So after you got done with civil affairs where did you go to on Bragg? DS: Well, I think that I got done there. I went to SWCS; it’s called the United States Army John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. And that's where all the Special Forces soldiers are trained. You know, before they're Special Forces. It’s a combination of Bank Halls where the folks who go in there and learn their language unless they went to Monterey, California before showing up, but generally there's Bank Hall and Weigh Hall. Well, weigh was 82nd, but there was Bank Hall... anyway, that's the big schoolhouse. That’s where these folks would learn their language and other skills. The classroom skills. NS: Alright, and what did you do over there at SWSC? Did you train people up or teach people, you know, cultural awareness? Or what did you focus on? I was the world religions NCO and I would work under the World Religions Chaplain who would be the instructor for people at camp McCall as part of Robin Sage in the culminating ending of that training at camp McCall. He would make sure that they understood the world religions piece for all the Special Forces trainees and that’s what we did there. NS: And so while you were at SWSC you were with which chapel? DS: At John F. Kennedy Chapel. JFK chapel. NS: That is the chapel that is attached to SWSC? DS: That is correct. NS: So how long were you with JFK for? DS: Probably two years. NS: That was followed by what? DS: Then I went to what was formally known as COSCOM. 25 �NS: Which what does COSCOM stand for? DS: COSCOM used to stand for Corps Support Command, and that used to be 18th Airborne Corps COSCOM, Corps Support, and they would take care of the 82nd Airborne Division, the 101st Airborne Division, 10th Mountain, and all the folks, back in the day, during the Saudi Arabian, during Desert Storm. They were in charge of providing Logistics. Logistical support for all the combat operations. And not the new term for that side of Fort Bragg, which is East Bragg is the 1st TSC, 1st Theater Sustainment Command. That's where I am currently assigned. NS: Alright, just to clarify, 1st TSC is no longer a jumping unit, correct? DS: That is correct, and the shame is us. The shame is on us. We’re not worthy. Yes, no they took all that stuff away. They used to be COSCOM and used to be able to jump, and you know. It was progressive. A lot of guys used to jump with COSCOM. I'd go over there and jump with those guys when I used to be in the 82nd. And now it's down to just, they got some parachute riggers over at the 82nd sustainment Brigade that is part of that East Bragg. But no, there are no more jump slots over at COSCOM. NS: I just had to officially give you some shit for going to a leg unit. DS: I am a leg. I am a leg. I’m happy. [Laughter] NS: Following my last question I want to know what changes have you seen in the army from when you initially went it to now a day, whether it be for the better or the worse DS: Well I think it's a lot better for people that respect each other. I think people really generally now, are making sure they extend respect to one another from higher to lower. I mean the commands are respecting people, making sure that they are treated with dignity. I do feel like it's a better army than what I joined back in 82nd. But I do know that I also believe that, in my personal opinion, we have our hands tied a little behind out back when it comes to being robust when we probably need to be robust. And I’m, of course, not in a position to make a determination like that as a SFC but I must tell you, rules of engagement often times are not as robust as they need to be from a soldier perspective, and I just wish that if we are going to train soldiers to be soldiers and execute those things that we have been called to execute that we work really hard, sure enough not to do collateral damage, and not to lose sight of our mission, but we can’t go out there and have our hands tied behind our backs. I must tell you that the last few years I’ve been around a lot of people who have been discouraged with the fact that before they can engage the enemy, they have to raise a flag, they have to shoot a warning shot, and maybe shoot something into someone's engine block, and then finally shoot at the person that's approaching you and causing, wanting to cause you harm. And those two things happen. 26 �Number one we are the most disciplined nation, disciplined army in the world, and we should be proud that we are able to do that stuff. On the other hand, boy, I'll tell you what, you just got to just step back. I’m talking as if I'm out of Uniform. And say to yourself, of ask yourself the questions, are we fighting, are we preparing soldiers to be warriors and execute those things that we must execute, or are we basically liaison, and doing to best we can to... NS: Police the world DS: Yeah, so I’m, this is me talking. I’m not being official. I’m just telling you, I just think it’s important to allow combative folks to be combative, and those who are not combative to go ahead and do those other missions. NS: I understand not having collateral damage, but I mean even with the rules of engagement as they are, even if there have been more lives... hell even during WWII we were carpet bombing the hell out of places DS: I guess in perspective I’ve got to tell you, I’m not trying to say, make a glass factory out of your enemy that may be in the middle east and decide to do extreme stuff just for the fact that you have the power, but boy I tell you, we knew that during Normandy that those guys were going to get off those landing crafts onto the beach of Normandy and not come back home or win, and there was really no choice. And they had to take a robust fight to the enemy. And they had green light go. And they had everything given to them that they could have ever been given to them at the time. Whatever capabilities we had as a nation at the time were given to those soldiers to storm the beach of Normandy and hopefully come back victorious for the sake of a lot of people in the world. And there were not a lot of people saying you can’t do this, you can’t shoot here, and you can’t shoot that. They went to the beach and they engaged the enemy, the Germans, and I’m not being nostalgic, but we need to give that to today’s soldiers not to... if you are going to send people in harm's way, you need to give them robust Rules of engagement so that they can execute the mission. So that they can go ahead and not put themselves at risk. They need to go out there with green light. I mean not stupidity, but a green light to execute that mission without having a lot of pull back. NS: Alright, and after being deployed and coming back and having all sorts of different people's opinions throwing out everybody's two cents, how do you feel coming back to the states and having all this wishy-washy people saying one thing or another? DS: I think that the media is probably doing our nation a disservice by not getting fully behind the war effort even in the initial stages. I’m not saying that you have to be blind to mistakes and just give a free pass to policies that may not be working. But don’t sabotage them before they start. So I think that we could have probably, and this is a personal opinion. I’m not a statesman... 27 �NS: THIS IS NOT A STATEMENT OF THE ARMY DS: This is a disclaimer. It’s just me. I think that, and again hindsight is 20/20. And you know and I know that had we gone into either Iraq and even kept those folks in place that were part of the government, the guys that ran the electricity and the plumbing and the infrastructure, instead of taking out and trying to start from scratch and rebuild the place, had we kept those people,, pay them their paycheck, and kept them onboard, we might have had an easier time. And that's just hindsight. That’s something we learned after the fact. But I still appreciate the fact that we as a nation can adjust fire in the middle of the battle and still come out victorious and the surge was very effective, so that surge did win that particular portion of the battle for Baghdad and Mosul and all those areas affected by the insurgency that was very rampant until we kind of put a clamp on it and allowed people to go ahead and vote and feel like they had something. Now those guys are never going to be a nation that raises a flag like Canada and America and France and act like they're nationalistic because they're tribal. Ok, that’s just a reality. That’s just something we have to learn, but we’ve given them the chance to have something they didn’t have before. I’m thinking I'm pretty proud of that. NS: I realize that I did forget to throw in there with 1st TSC do you deploy at all and what do you do when you deploy? DS: Yeah we deploy for fix, usually we have rotations of 6 months at a time depending on the size of our section, and our job is truly logistical. We are doing what's called responsible drawdown now. Operation Iraqi Freedom is now been labeled Operation New Dawn. That the new name for Operation Iraqi Freedom because we are taking all the soldiers and equipment out of the Iraqi theater and either doing retrograde operations to make that equipment ready as it was brand new and ship it off to Afghanistan or bring it back home to the states,. And that's just a very logistical... it's heavy lifting right now. NS: Do you deploy with 1st TSC? DS: Yes, I’ve been there twice. NS: And where do you deploy to? DS: A place called Camp Ariston Kuwait. And that’s basically our little white house if you will. That’s where we're in charge of people who are still stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unit ministry teams and units that are both currently in those two theaters of operations. And we are the headquarters out of ARCENT, United States Army Central Command. And we work for those folks. And our job is to, as sustainment command is to provide logistical support. Beans and bullets, water, equipment, everything that those soldiers on the front line need. NS: Alright, so you are in charge of making sure that chaplain assistants there and chaplains there are able to have the equipment they need. 28 �DS: Absolutely. The equipment, but also to take care of soldiers and families. NS: Well, at this point in time is there anything that we missed, anything you would like to touch on, whether it is throughout training up people, to being deployed, to falling off Mount Sinai? [Laughter] NS: Is there anything that we've missed that you would like to cover? DS: No. I just think that you got to, before you ever even close the book on anything military that you got to thank the families and it’s important to thank all of these families for the last ten years, that have really been sacrificing themselves. These wives and kids and lots of folks have been working hard to make sure this is one effort. Whether it is the guys in boots or whether it be the family left behind, so families never get enough credit. That all I’d have to add to that. NS: Thank you very much, and I guess this concludes our interview. 29 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/49de647e1c5e4599c2a1fe52d8465b94.mp3 a7872a2a086735e9a6a130e4957dafad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Sponsel, Nathan G. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:24:53 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 29 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Daniel Sponsel, 25 August 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans Sponsel, Daniel P. Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Daniel P. Sponsel, Army, Sergent First Class, born in 1963. In this interview Daniel Sponsel discusses how the JROTC program influenced his decision to join the military. He goes on to discuss his time as a recruiter as well as his time in active duty. While in active duty he served as a field medic in Korea. Sponsel then discusses his decision to re-class as a chaplain and some of his experiences afterwards. During his time as a chaplain he was deployed to Hungary, Bosnia, Germany, and Croatia. He then goes on to talk about his time in Iraq and finishes up by talking about some of his experiences with the military once he got back to the United States. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/25/11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English chaplin Daniel P. Sponsel Iraq JROTC Korea; medic Marines Nathan G. Sponsel https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cbfbdc96490e0b287e0a539efb15751b.pdf 5e4d961e229175a12c27c00e02c7e081 PDF Text Text Davis William Craig interviews Former Marine Corporal William Chris Ray Chapel Hill, NC 13 October 2011 DC: Davis W. Craig CR: W. Chris Ray DC: Today is October 13, 2011. We are in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Chris Ray, birth date... CR: December 10, 1988. DC: This is being recorded for Appalachian State University. Mr. Ray served in operation... CR: Enduring Freedom. DC: Enduring Freedom, with the Marines. Chris, were you drafted or did you enlist? CR: I enlisted my senior year of high school, 2007, in January, and shipped off to boot camp July 1, 2007. DC: What made you want to join the military? CR: I think I knew I was going to join the military...when I was in seventh grade, after seeing 9/11, it was one of those things that was in the back of my mind I was exploring other options, then if came time to...apply to colleges and whatnot...the only school I applied to was Appalachian State, and got in there but didn't really want to go to school so I chose to go into the corps, it was something different. DC: Why did you pick the Marines? CR: Well, the reputation they have is a overall little better than the other branches and I wanted to be in the infantry, and the Marine Corps infantry is probably the most prestigious out of all the branches, as well. So that's probably why I chose that. DC: Do you recall your first days in service? What do you remember about when you first...got in? CR: Like in boot camp? DC: Yeah. CR: It was pretty hot, pretty miserable, you know, being like 18 and...you know getting thrown into something like that, I think everyone kind of questions themselves, like "What did I get into?" And then, after I went to boot camp, that lasted thirteen weeks, about three months...[I] 1 �Went to School of Infantry, which lasted about two months, and then went to my deploying unit, which was seventh battalion, sixth Marines. It was...a tough experience. You learn a lot. It's certainly not for everyone; there were times when I was hating life. DC: How did you get through it? CR: I set out to accomplish something; I'm not really one to quit on anything so...relying on myself, relying on the guys around me because we were all going through the same thing. DC: Do you remember any specific instructors? CR: Yeah, I remember all of them. I didn't really like my boot camp instructors; I didn’t really have too much respect for them just because, in the Marine Corps there is a big rift between the infantry guys and the non-infantry guys. At the time, of course, you fear them, you respect them, but looking back on them...they're jokes. And actually, my School of Infantry main instructor actually deployed with me to Afghanistan, last summer. DC: Where exactly did you go on you first deployment? CR: My first deployment, it was called the twenty-sixth Marine Expeditionary Unit, and I went to Italy, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Bahrain, Kuwait, Croatia, Egypt, and Greece. DC: What do you remember about your first deployment, specifically? CR: I hated it, honestly, because the only thing we did was, we were deployed as, it's called a Force In Readiness, our whole job is to basically float around the Mediterranean and the Arabian Gulf...Persian Gulf, just to see if anything, in case anything, pops up in any other country, we are supposed to be there to take care of it...we trained other militaries, we trained the U.A.E.'s first mortar platoon ever, which was pretty cool, but overall that deployment wasn't really what I'd joined to do. DC: What was your job? CR: I was a mortar man, so we were part of the Eighty-One Millimeter Mortar platoon. So basically, our job was the first, indirect support of the riflemen and the standard grunts. DC: Did you see any combat? CR: On the first deployment? DC: Yeah. CR: No. DC: Let’s talk about some other deployments, where else have you been stationed? 2 �CR: I've only been stationed in Camp Lejeune, but I went to Marjah in Helmahn Province, Afghanistan last summer...my second and last deployment. DC: Did you see combat there? CR: Yes...my second patrol ever...actually my first patrol ever we were indirectly involved in a firefight then my seconds patrol ever we got in a firefight and three of my buddies ended up getting shot, two of them went home...one of them shattered...his femur in one of his legs and just really messed up the other one and another one got shot in the back of the head and actually survived. DC: What did that...what did the first combat that you were involved in...what was going through your head once you realized that you were actually in a war, fighting? CR: It was pretty surreal...it was one of those things where as a kid you see all these movies and stuff and war is so glorified and all that...I guess people see it as cool and awesome until people start getting hurt, but...at the time I think it was a really big wakeup call seeing as the first couple of patrols, that really set the tone for the rest of deployment. We had a couple of guys that were really freaked out after that but I think that just really made us more aware of...what could happen at any second, at any time. DC: Now, this hasn't been addressed yet, what ranks did you hold in your time with the U.S. Marines? CR: I came in as a Private and was meritoriously promoted to Private, First-Class after boot camp, and then about eight months later I was promoted to Lance Corporal, and then after that I was meritoriously promoted to Corporal and that's the rank that I held until I got out. DC: Were you awarded any medals or citations or any sort of decorations? CR: Yes. Obviously...they give out a lot of medals, a lot of them don't matter, but the only ones that people really care about are the Combat Action Ribbon saying you've been in combat, received fire, exchanged fire...I was awarded the Purple Heart, which is not a medal that anyone wants but... you're more proud of that than anything else...I got a Purple Heart for...in October of [2010] I got blown up by a DFC, which is a Directionally Fragmented Charge, which is a type of IED, so it's basically a shotgun out of the ground ... I ended up breaking my shoulder, pretty much got peppered all over the front of my body...I got medi-evaced to Germany and then to Maryland and then finally went back home. DC: What circumstances led to that? CR: I was a Squad Leader, so I had about ten Marines under me, eight Afghan National Army soldiers, we had to do a vehicle checkpoint that morning at an Afghan police station...We were doing checkpoints and the Taliban obviously watched us go down there and they knew we had to head back to our main patrol base, eventually. They'd been watching us for a couple of weeks...So I split my squad up, I sent one of my team leaders on the East side of the road and I 3 �went on the West side, we never take the road because of the risk of IEDs, and they set up, I can't remember exactly it's kind of hazy, but they set up a fake IED that I went to go check out...and it wasn't really anything, and then I decided to cross the road and it was a remote controlled IED. They basically waited for me to cross then the next thing I remember was waking up...I really couldn't hear anything, my ears were ringing, I looked down and there was blood all over my legs, my face, my shoulder, my chest, so I was kind of a little freaked out, but I couldn't really move, I was in the middle of the road so I basically called over my radio, let everyone know that I was hit and as soon as I did that, when [the enemy] opened up with some small fire so that no one could come out and get me on the road. Since my legs weren't really working, I kind of crawled down into a ditch and fired blindly, suppressing so someone could at least come over to me and render me aide, applied tunicates and whatnot and everyone came to support. [I] Went on a helicopter to a hospital and just dealt with recovery in the hospital and physical therapy after that. DC: [mutters, pause] When you were overseas how did you stay in touch with your family? CR: [We] had a satellite phone that we were able to call every once in a while. I got to talk to my family, I'd say once or twice a week. They would cut off our limitation, we weren't allowed to use the phone if people were severely injured or if we had guys killed in action, which was fairly frequent...so that was the only way, was through satellite phone. DC: Was the food any good? CR: No, the food was horrible. I ate spaghetti and meatballs for...three months. Now, if I see spaghetti and meatballs I’m going to throw up, but the actual Afghan food was really good. What it was, they eat a lot of flatbread, rice, and chicken. DC: Did you do anything special for good luck? CR: We kind of all had a routine...certain things that we liked to do...but I don't think I had anything for good luck. DC: What sort of culture...cultural experiences did you experience in Afghanistan? CR: It's completely different; I don't really understand it still, but just the way that the women are treated. We would ask a lot of the ANA, the Afghan soldiers, if they even knew why were in Afghanistan, and most of them had no clue. And just dealing with the people...it was...especially with the men...sexual relations with women was taboo but it was frequent for...they wouldn't call themselves gay but...they were more affectionate to men than women. DC: How did you guys entertain yourselves while you were over there? CR: Well, I read a ton of books but that was pretty much it, other than that we didn't have much, a couple of people had some laptops, but we had a generator so our power was limited...other than that we talked a lot about everything. 4 �DC: Do you recall any instances of something goofy you all did for camaraderie? CR: Yeah...lots of times. We had to do these vehicle checkpoints all the time so to mess with the locals we'd sometimes tell them to get off their motorcycles and we'd go do donuts on them, or we'd pretend we were pissed at them and pretty much hold them down and just tickle them, you know, just stuff like that. Some of them liked us and some of them got pretty annoyed or offended by it but we'd do stuff like that for laughs. DC: Were there any other pranks or shenanigans going on? CR: I mean, yeah there were lots of things we would do that we weren't exactly supposed to with the motorcycles and stuff, but elders had beards and you're supposed to be really respectful toward the elders. Some of my younger guys would go up there and tell the elders they needed to search for IEDs in their beards...stuff like that. [They] messed with the Afghan soldiers a lot, the kids we got them to...we'd teach them rap songs and stuff like that. DC: Did you keep a diary or take any pictures? CR: I did, I kept a diary and then it got ruined. I took a decent amount of pictures. Also, I think my camera got messed up somehow so I wasn't able to get all of them but, yeah, I was able to record some stuff. DC: Do you recall the day that your service ended? CR: Yes. DC: Where were you? CR: I ended up that morning, in Lejeune, checking out was just...the greatest feeling in the world. I was waking up, I was about to be free. I ended up packing up all my stuff, picked up my final papers, drove to Wilmington [North Carolina], where I lived at for the summer. DC: What did you do in the days and weeks following your [completion] of your enlistment? CR: I was just a beach bum; I did whatever, a whole lot of nothing, really. DC: Did you work or go back to school? CR: I'm back in school now and I'm working...I'm at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and working a part-time job, too. DC: Is you education being paid for by the G.I. Bill? CR: Yes, by the post-9/11 G.I. Bill. 5 �DC: I know you've had to take a forty-hour a week job; can you explain the complications behind the tardiness of your government payments? CR: Yeah, I finally started getting my G.I. payments now. I could live off that now if I wanted to but working pretty much a full time job gives me more money, more experience. It'd be nice to have some time off but it's kind of weird going from the past four years with not that much downtime to go on with too much free time. I think I do better when everything a little busier, a little more efficient. DC: Would you say that the military made you a scheduled person? CR: Yeah, yeah, in a lot of ways and in some ways I kind of despise the habits and things the Marine Corps has kind of drilled into me, but for the most part, I think I'm pretty close to full adjustment back to civilian life. DC: What sort of things do you catch yourself doing? CR: Some stupid things...For some reason the Marine Corps...they don't like us to use blue pens for anything...I don’t have any blue pens, it's pretty stupid, but...[Chuckles] for some reason I don't use blue pens. DC: Did you make any close friends while you were in the service? CR: Yeah, certainly, certainly. One of my best friends he was actually one of my team leaders, he's going to school as University of Alabama...another one of my really good friends, who's actually from Raleigh, he's back in Raleigh going to school there...But certainly the guys that I've met there I'll keep in touch with for the rest of my life. DC: Have you had any thoughts about joining a veterans' organization? CR: Yeah, I probably should. UNC doesn’t have a veterans' organization, which is actually something that I've talk to a couple other veterans with at the university, trying to start one. And there's also, local VFW and American Legion and stuff like that which...if I had more free time I would do something like that but I guess I just haven't gotten around to it yet. DC: Did your military experience change your feelings about the war, or war in general, or the military? CR: Certainly. Before I went in, I was pretty naive and I actually supported the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan, then you start investigating things on your own and reading...more things come to light. I ended up being definitely being against the war in Iraq and still support the war in Afghanistan but I'm completely against the way that we are going about it. After seeing, out of my squad, four out of ten of us have Purple Hearts, two of my guys got shot, one of them has to walk with a cane for the rest of his life, and another one of my guys got blown up by a smaller IED than what I got hit by and he ended up losing both legs and three fingers. So 6 �stuff like that makes you certainly way more critical of politicians and anyone who says they support the war when they haven’t been over there...something along those lines. There's certainly nothing glorified about war at all. DC: Well, I think that is about all we need, thank you very much, Chris. CR: [I] appreciate it. END OF INTERVIEW 7 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ab25383043a4994e0db5593ce2941b2c.mp3 b7c9b096d43eb66de3fe3b2b82319fc3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Craig, Davis W. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:09:50 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 7 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Chris Ray, 13 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001- Ray, William Chris Veterans United States Interviews Description An account of the resource William Chris Ray, Marine Corporal, was born on December 10, 1988. In this interview he discusses how 9/11 impacted his decision to join the military. He goes on to discuss his experiences in boot camp and his time while being deployed. He also talks about his job as a mortor man and specifically dicusses his time in Afghanistan and how he stayed in touch with his family. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-13 9/11 Afghanistan Davis W. Craig Marines military experiences mortor man William Chris Ray https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5368cac8e959c0a281fb03e998faeff8.pdf 14f7ecaaab684c0f0abcd182aa39f683 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with SFC Charles Tye 13 October 2011 Rabun Gap, GA Britteny Williams BW: Britteny Williams CT: Charles Tye BW: It is October 13 2011. We are in Rabun Gap, Georgia and I am interviewing SFC Charles Tye. I am interviewing for an oral history project. When is your birthday? CT: 18 May 1968 BW: Where were you born and raised? CT: I was born in Bakersfield, California and raised about half of my life there and the rest in Arkansas. BW: When did you join the military? CT: In 1988 BW: Why did you join? CT: Well, I tried to work for like two years after high school doing mechanic work and it just wasn't panning out very good and I wanted to be part of a team and do something for my family to provide better for them BW: Which branch did you choose and why? CT: I chose the army and I went into armor, which are tanks because they had a really cool video. BW: Can you tell me what basic was like and where you went? CT: I went to basic in Fort Knox, Kentucky. I went May through September and it was pretty hot there. It was pretty challenging. I really enjoyed it. It taught me to set goals, meet those goals and be proud of what I was doing BW: Can you describe your job? CT: My job in the Army? BW: yes 1 �CT: Ok well I went in the first...I’ve got ten years active duty time I’ve done on tanks. I went to desert storm in 90. I was a gunner for a platoon sergeant and being on tanks you learn a lot of maneuverability, mobility, and formations, how to work as a team, you're in a four-man team on the tank and very tight quarters. You learn to live, eat, and sleep together. You really build a close relationship with those guys. Even today I still talk to my loader that I had during Desert Storm he lives in Tennessee. BW: Can you describe a little more about desert storm? CT: Sure it was...we were over there, we deployed from Europe and I was over there for about six months. We were the last unit to arrive in country because we loaded the port in Germany for all the other units that were leaving Germany, going over there. So we were in charge of loading the port, we had to drive all of the vehicles over to the big cranes and load them on the boats and stuff and then we arrived over there in country. Our equipment was already there, we received the equipment right off the bat. We stayed in Saudi Arabia maybe a week or two prepping and then we started making our move out to the open desert. We were part of the far left hand wheel that sealed off Kuwait from the retreating Iraqi army. It was just 24 hours a day, seven days a week you were on the tank practicing your skills to go into combat. So we had one hot meal the whole time I was over there, the rest of the time we ate MREs, which is a meal ready to eat, the little brown bag stuff I made one phone call home, it cost me...if I'm not mistaken, back then it was $25 just for my wife to pick up and it was kind of a big deal though, especially to get to go call. It was probably two months before we ever received any type of mail or anything. We had no contact, basically anybody or anything, it was just us. It was pretty eye opening; I was young at the time. BW: How did entertain themselves out there? CT: Its funny, the tanks, when we would sit in a formation, a coil if you would call it. You're going into the military right? BW: I am in the National Guard CT: Ok well, we were in a coil and our battalion made a coil, so in between our tanks were probably several hundred yards. Well everyday there was the ritual of who got to go and burn trash from the MREs and stuff we ate and trash that we acquired, so that was kind of, that was one of the highlights. The other thing was, we had Walkman's back then, the cd cassettes and you were all the time getting a cassette or something from somebody that said it didn't play no more or nothing, we used to just sit there and just shake the tape back and forth you would see sand coming out and everything, eventually it would start playing again, there wasn’t a whole lot to do but that was entertaining. BW: how long do you plan on staying in? CT: Well, right now I have 22 years, so I'm looking at winding it up real shortly. 2 �BW: Is there anything else that you would like to add? CT: I think that it's a good thing to do; it will definitely help you for the future. You know, learning how to be where you are suppose to be when you're supposed to be there, making decisions, you know just through life and stuff I don't think I would change anything I did but I really think it’s just about time for me to go. I've had three deployments in OIF now. It kind of weighs on you, you know, once you start getting kids and stuff you miss, being in the military you miss everything. You miss everybody's birthdays to include yours, all your anniversaries, most of your holidays. I guess the way you learn to live in country is just I'm here, I'm going to be here the next year, this is my family and the way I got through it is, you got to kind of put on standby your family that is at home for the simple fact that there is nothing that you can do while you're overseas, you're not going to be able to help them, you might be able to call them and talk to them and advise them but as far as you being there to take care of stuff, you’re not, it's difficult, it really is but I guess the old saying what don't kill us makes us stronger kind of applies there. I’m proud to have done what I done but I feel like it's the end of my time. BW: Thank you sir, I appreciate it. 3 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a084a976442405fbb56a6806ffa41b8e.mp3 42b842961f6b615b5b184fcc355cdc37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Williams, Britteny Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:08:05 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 3 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles Tye, 13 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Tye, Charles Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Charles Tye, Sergent First Class, U.S. Army, was born on May 18, 1968. In this interview Charles Tye says that he wanted to join the Army because he wanted to be part of a team and do something for my family to provide better for them. He also discusses his job as a gunner on tanks in the Desert Storm conflict in Iraq. He then finishes up the interview by further explaining his experiences in Iraq. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-13 Britteny Williams Charles Tye gunner tanks Us Army; Desert Strom; Iraq https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ecdae20bf5062ecd0c3c8868c5dce225.pdf 58f1db7ff2d742b01a96adfad47a8b41 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with MSG Chalk Wetmore. October 12, 2011. Boone, NC EF: Evan Freemyer CW: Master Sergeant Chalk Wetmore EF: It is October 12, 2011. We are in Boone, NC, on the campus of Appalachian State University. I am interviewing Mast Sergeant Chalk Wetmore Senior Military Science Instructor and Battalion Sergeant Major of the Mountaineer Battalion Appalachian State University. I am Evan Freemyer cadet and student in US Military History class at Appalachian State University, and we will begin the oral history now. EF: First off can we begin with when you were born and where you grew up? CW: Born in Valdese, North Carolina, August 17, 1972. I spent most of my childhood living in Mountain Creek attending Burke County schools graduating East Burke High School in 1990. EF: And when did you join the Army and why did you decide to join the army. CW: My senior year of high school, April of 1990. I did delayed entry split op. with the US Army Reserves as a combat engineer. And I joined the Army because I wanted to serve something higher than just a paycheck, I wanted my job and my life to have meaning and with the influence of comic books and knights of the round table stories and Conan the military seemed the place that still had that code of conduct, a sense of duty, a sense of honor. EF: And was there military family, like history of military in the family? CW: My grandfathers both served, but otherwise no. EF: What was Basic Training and AIT like for you? CW: It was fun, I enjoyed the physical challenge, I enjoyed the camaraderie, and I enjoyed just the suck of it, the grit and the sweat. EF: And where did you do your training? CW: Ft. Leonard Wood Missouri. EF: And what was your, well I guess you said you went to in-between this, how did that effect kind of your college life? CW: Yeah, I attend Campbell University while I was in the reserves for three years or two years. I wasn’t focused on college I was focused on being a soldier. The only class I focused on was ROTC, I wasn’t disciplined enough, I focused on the things I enjoyed and ignored the things I �didn’t. Which cost me, at least it cost my parents, financially, but I wasn’t focused or ready for college. EF: So when you decided to go active Army what kind of support did you have at home, I guess your parents supported you in that decision? CW: I was married at the time; I got married while I was in school. They did support me in the decision but the biggest thing I needed became no longer about the duty and serving I needed the paycheck, so. EF: And where was your first duty assignment? CW: Ft. Carson Colorado in the 299th Engineer Battalion part of the 4th Infantry Division. EF: At that time what was your ambition for your Army career? CW: I determined in the 6th grade I was going to be in the Army, in the 9th grade I was going to be at least a Sergeant First Class in the Special Forces, and by my junior year of high school I determined I was going to have the SMI, Senior Military Instructor position at Appalachian State University. Those views didn’t change and now, I am, I did the E-7 Special Forces in under 10 years and I am currently the SMI at Appalachian State University. EF: How did you go about accomplishing those goals? CW: First off identify where you want to get to and what it takes to qualify for that. As the simple answer it really came down to just doing focusing on not just the evaluation but focusing on the mission focusing on the job do the best you can. That enabled me to get the assignments that I wanted to include this one because of a good reputation, work ethic. EF: So when was the first time you were deployed? CW: To a combat zone or just anywhere? EF: I guess both. CW: First time I deployed anywhere overseas would be in 2000 I went to Thailand for the first time with the 1st Special Forces group. And combat would have been in fall of ’04 with 1st group I went to Afghanistan. EF: How many times since those instances have you been deployed? Obviously as Special Forces you probably have a long list. CW: I guess about 16 - 17 times. EF: Now you said you’re with Special Forces when did you decide or when in your career did you put for Special Forces? How was that a change from your other active duty lifestyle? �CW: I had made the decision while I was still down at Ft. Benning Georgia as an E5, I had been in about four years. I had always wanted to be SF but because I was married it was not a single decision, my wife had to agree. I was so miserable with the current assignment that’s when she agreed then at Ft. Brag I was in the 37th Engineer Battalion Combat Airborne and that’s when the final put in the packet went in and that was in ‘97or ’98 something like that when I went to selection. As far as what was the second part of the question? EF: How has that been different from your other active duty? CW: The level of individual responsibility is much higher. You’re surrounded by professionals even though in the Army there are professionals everywhere the metrics wise when you look at IQ, test scores, PT scores are all high in SF. And so that was what drew me to it, the family support is much better as well. The trips usually have meaning, a lot more meaning to it, at least I think all the trips have meaning for everybody it’s just I was more aware and had more influence into how we conducted our business down range, how we conducted our training on a day to day basis. The amount of influence I had in that was much more than we had in conventional units. And the missions are not just your typical wartime mission kick in the door shoot someone in the face kind of stuff. It’s more of a, you know I’ve built school, medical treatment, pulled teeth in Mongolia, teaching working with the border police in Thailand, or developing a recondo unit in Nepal, or dealing with stuff in Cambodia, Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, wherever it seems to have more relevance, whether that’s true or not you would have to ask someone else. It seemed to me that we had a lot more relevance and impact on how we implemented our foreign policy. EF: Kind of going off that, what can you tell me about the different times that you’ve that you have deployed some of the different things you have experienced in those situations. CW: The bulk of the time has been in the role as teacher, with different skill sets, not teaching English, but teaching small unit tactics, marksmanship, first aide, staff organization, planning is the bulk of it. And the second part? EF: Just what can you tell me about your different deployments and... CW: The coolest part is living and working with the people your training in the different culture. I was inducted as a member of a tribe and lived out in the jungle for a while in a place and then eating their food, immersing yourself in their culture. Whether that’s dealing with the different tribal conflicts in Afghanistan or the social inequity that some tribes have in Thailand and Cambodia or seeing the perspective of the insurgency going on in Nepal from the viewpoint of a Nepalese soldier. That interest me and I really enjoyed that part, those type missions and how they train, how they live, what they eat, what they wear that’s always been the big thing, the big take back from those trips whether we’re working for the DEA or some other government agency. �EF: Has there ever been a time that you’ve feared you weren’t going to make it home and how have you overcome those situations. CW: Faith is how you overcome, yes lots of times; you know the big concern was not with me coming home just because before you leave you have to make sure everything is straight that way you don’t have to worry about it. My biggest concern was with my soldiers not coming home. As far as every time I’ve been in a situation where it’s pretty likely that I was going to be dead or die it never really affected me a whole lot, a lot of that is based on my faith. I know, I am a Christian, I know what is going to happen when I die, I understand the procedures that are involved with that and the accountability I’ll have to have, and I accept it. And the big concern is with, with your soldiers. Have you trained them hard enough? Are you giving them correct guidance? Are you making the right call at the time? Now whenever it’s actually in the midst of combat you’re not thinking through, you’re concerned with that, but that’s not what’s in the forefront, you focus on the mission, what’s going on at the time. Because it’s too late to worry about it then, you worry about it ahead of time and you worry about it afterwards, but when you’re in those situations you’re just focused on what’s going on. EF: And talking about the current conflict that we’re in... CW: Which one? EF: In the Middle East. CW: Okay, which one? EF: (laughs) I guess the one that’s at the forefront, or two, the ones that are at the forefront of the civilian world’s mind I guess, would be like Iraq and Afghanistan. How do you see the military’s, or how, from your perspective how are the military operations there going and kind of what can you tell us about what is going on over there? CW: Okay. I think the military has fairly well identified that this is a long-term fight. As far as the conflicts in relation to the legitimacy of the government of Iraq or the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan it’s in a transition mode between being a military operation and being a state department operation. There is always going to be some push, pull there as you have differing viewpoints, but from a military stand point I think they have conceptually a good plan. But that really depends on how that is facilitated by the government, our government, as well as the governments of the host countries. And then if we’re able to follow through then great; however, that is dependent upon Commander in Chief and a lot of that comes down to the will of the people. Their view points as expressed in the vote, as expressed by their chosen representatives in Congress, to whether we follow through with the long term plan or not. As far as the War on Terrorism I think we’ve been very successful, worldwide terrorism has gone down by 98% since we’ve invaded Afghanistan and Iraq which shows a direct correlation between those two events �and when those terrorist activities fell off. So as far as keeping the fight over there I think we’ve been very effective denying them safe haven and disrupting their command and control system. EF: So I guess, I’m sure you’ve changed since the years when you first enlisted so if you could, like if you could see your 18 year old self who just enlisted in the Army, what are some of the changes you would notice right off the bat and what’s some advice you give somebody who is think about enlisting or just enlisted? How has the army shaped your worldview I guess? CW: Well, a couple, as far as personal changes patience, I’m much more patient now. Everything had to happen right then or I would get upset. Self-discipline has greatly increased, self-accountability has greatly increased, and part of that is the burden of leadership but a lot of it is due to maturity, holding myself accountable for what I do or fail to do. I realize now that thick skin as far as, should only apply outwardly, we should be thin skinned when it comes to our job, our performance and the example we set. I understand now much better that it’s not just me, everything I do represents something bigger, represents my family, my faith, my job, the US Army. Part of that came from being the only American in an area during my time. That, being accountable to others, holding myself accountable is one of the big changes. As far as how, the world is much smaller now for me, I keep a much broader view. The number one thing that’s changed, the biggest thing that’s changed is I don’t sweat the small stuff anymore. Those little things that get, tend to get people all worked up, I appreciate simple things. Being able to lay down in my own bed, having a warm meal, not having people try to kill you (laughs). So if the weather is a little bad or I get a flat tire I don’t get near as upset anymore cause those are minor things, the important things are God, family, and country and anything else is an enhancement to that. EF: I guess as part of our, you know we’re talking about military history, we talk a lot about battles and historical battles, can you, I guess as much as you can, can you talk to me about some of the combat situations that you’ve been in? Would there be too much sensor...? CW: No, I think one of the big, everybody always asks about the combat piece and it seems to ignore a lot of the, the majority of your time is not spent in combat; you’re in a combat area. I’ve probably been exposed more than most in the actual; you know, kill or be killed side of it. So on that, I don’t know, it seems it’s just another mission that bad things happened. It’s a, you just see some horrible stuff that you can’t see; you can’t unsmell like people burning, it’s just a smell unlike anything else. But that’s, the bulk of the time though like we’re living with the tribes to try and get them to take control of their own lives. Seeing, I was thankful once for saving a soldier, he had his wife make me something to give to me and I’ve had that happen several times, and that’s the kind of stuff you really, really means something cause once you get out there as Special Forces you work with indigenous personnel. So it’s not necessarily working with US soldiers all the time and developing that trust, that brotherhood, that camaraderie means a lot and a lot of that is tempered by, by combat. �Everybody seems to react to it a little different, some people get amped up like they’re going to power life or get in a boxing ring or something like that. Fortunately most the time I’ve seen it been on the planning side, we intended to go in there and do something, but there were many times where you know it just started happening around you. Me personally I tend to get real, I’ve been told, I’m real calm. Whatever it is seems like everything moves real slow, I'm able to communicate what I need done and maintain the big picture; then afterwards is kind of when you get the jumps from the adrenaline. And, I, I’m not the best guy to ask on that, I’ve had the honor of serving with heroes who do amazing things on the battlefield, some of them will never come home. And those are the kind of people you should probably ask those kind of questions. For me it was do the mission, I just happened to be with some outstanding soldiers and some American heroes and that’s why I’m here. That’s combat, being able to serve with those and doing my best to do my part. EF: Thank you for sharing that. I guess the last kind of final, I’ll try to be on a lighter note, what has been the most fun thing you’ve done in the Army or your favorite thing you’ve done in the Army? Then what has been your most rewarding thing you’ve done in the Army? CW: The training is the most fun, the jumping out of airplanes, the swimming in from over the horizon, finning in, the skiing the snowmobiling, the four-wheeling, the driving schools, the shooting, the blowing stuff up that’s all fun stuff. Training with the team down range in different countries, Nepal, had a blast there, except for the chow, chow sucked. And then the most rewarding is, we set up or we were approached by some of the elders in Chamkani, Afghanistan, they wanted to set up a school for girls. And the bulk of the people supported it; however, it was strongly opposed by the Taliban. We didn’t dictate it or delegate it or any of those things or even suggest it was coming up for them, but we did decide to aide them, so we pulled, we got it to where the locals agreed to let the girls stay in school, they weren’t allowed to have a building, but they were allowed to have a tent. And once they hit twelve they could no longer attend because then they would be the age of marrying, they would be married soon thereafter. But, during that brief time they were allowed to be educated so we pulled security cause they threatened to kill all of the girls as well as the families of the men who sent the girls there. So enabling that school to get going was one of the most rewarding. EF: Well thank you for your time and consent to this interview, I do appreciate it. CW: Ride on. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8af5bb49a351a4eb3045a862318a74a4.mp3 fd892772f424b4ccd37bec95267ee362 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Freemyer, Evan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:40 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 6 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Chalk Wetmore, 12 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Veterans Wetmore, Chalk United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Chalk Wetmore, Master Sergeant, U.S. Army, was born on August 17, 1972. In this interview, Chalk Wetmore says that his reasons for joining the military were because he wanted his job and life to have meaning. He goes on to discuss his experience at basic training as well as his experience in active duty. His deployments overseas include time in Cambodia, Afghanistan, Thailand, and other areas as well. Wetmore also gives his take on the War in Iraq and Afghanistan. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/12/11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Afghanistan Chalk Westmore Evan Freemyer US Army War in Afghanistan War in Iraq https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/32d1818c78aeebb379cafdc4f4dc2e3c.pdf 213cf3ba6b1cf27723096be077b9be6a PDF Text Text Oral history Transcript Appalachian State University Interviewee: Lt. Colonel Steven Wilkins Interviewer: Ben Brazaski October 15 2011 BB: Ben Brazaski SW: Steve Wilkins BB: This is Ben Brazaski and I am interviewing Steve Wilkins at his residence on 10/15/2011. I'm doing an oral history project for my U.S.Military History class for Dr. Judkin Browning. And could you state your full name? SW: Steven Patrick Wilkins. BB: And your birthdate? SW: 3/27/1960 BB: Is ...ok... Were you serving in any particular war or conflict? SW: Well…did... I had a full military career... I went into the Army commissioned as an officer in the Army immediately upon graduation from college... and through the course of my career participated in three actual conflicts, the invasion of Grenada, Desert Storm and then Operation Enduring Freedom, the invasion and first year of the conflict in Iraq. BB: So just to clarify, what branch of the service were you in? SW: I was in the Army. BB: And when you left what rank were you? SW: I retired as a Lt. Colonel… I was actually a Lt. Colonel promotable and that's a ... that's another part of the story we can talk about later. It's a good thing but because of the war in Iraq I stayed longer than I anticipated which was not a bad thing but I ended up getting promoted or getting �selected for promotion but because I stayed in and was extended for that duty. BB: Was there anywhere else you were stationed outside the United States? SW: Yes. Early in my career as a young captain after being assigned to Ft. Bragg I was stationed in Korea for one year. And it was actually a very interesting time period because it's when South Korea was building up to host the Olympics and there was a huge effort going on in the country and I was there during the Asian games the year before the Olympics which was kind of a dry run so it was a very interesting time to be there because they were transitioning from really a third world developing country into a very, very modern country so it was quite a good time to be there. I served overseas a lot that is the only time that I had that. We would call a permanent change of station... where actually moved everything to Korea and was there but I did serve in I lot of other countries in the early 1980's. I… I went to Central America... Honduras ... many times... when we were involved in... I wouldn’t call it a conflict, but it was definitely a standoff. Nicaraguan government at the time was sponsoring a trouble along the border with Honduras and the US had decided that their activity was aggressive and that we were going to take a stand on that so for several years we did a lot of exercises down there developing infrastructure where we could reinforce Honduras if needed. Elsewhere in Central America so I went there many times... participated in the invasion of Grenada in 1983 so that was overseas and during that same first tour in the army. So... went to turkey on an exercise which was very interesting ... enjoyed that very, very much... let me think... where else did I go during that time period? Overseas... well... then I went to Korea. Later on I ended up going to lots of countries in the Middle East because eventually I went through army special forces training. Became a Special Forces officer i11 fifth Special Forces group so we went to the Middle East to do our training. We were oriented... to southwest Asia. Middle East went to Jordan a couple of times, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, went to Somalia; made a lot of trips to those locations. Then, later on as we were building up to do the war in Iraq. Went to Germany and Kuwait several times for planning conferences there... because the headquarters we were going to fall under in Iraq was headquartered in Germany and then of course we actually went to some planning conferences in Kuwait itself. Went to Europe a few other times on trips related to the military so really got to see quite a bit of the world. BB: When you were in combat situations what exactly was your particular job? SW: Well when we went to Grenada in 1983, I was assigned to a… I was commissioned a transportation officer. When I graduated from college I went to the citadel... graduated 1982, with a political science degree. Badly wanted to be an infantry officer and was initially assigned that, two years duty infantry, and then control branch of transportation corps which I thought that was ok because transportation did interest me even though it wasn't my first choice. But then the army changed its policy that year and I came straight in as a transportation corp. ft. I personally was very disappointed. But once I got to my first assignment at ft. Bragg, North Carolina found that I enjoyed that career field very much. We were very… I was in a very active unit, we were called a terminal transfer unit and essentially we had a lot of people. We were big company 250 people; we had a lot of cranes, and forklifts, and trucks and bulldozers and �everything else you can think of. And our job was to run terminals be it either barge terminals or ocean terminals airfield operations, truck terminals maybe for surface movement to where we would receive cargo off of ships or airplanes... whatever or maybe load them. We were called a transshipment point, and it turned out that it was very interesting work. But the particular company I was in, because it was at Ft. Bragg in 18th Airborne Corp and then develop orient or train whatever you would say to do these for airfield type operation this… this sort of workhand that’s because at that time just a few years prior under President Carters administration, the rapid joint task force in order to project American military power into the middle east if necessary. And the army 18th airborne corp. at fort Bragg was a key component of that so they designed 18th airborne corps around the 82nd airborne division, 1015t airborne division, 24th infantry division, and others to be able to go into an austere environment rapidly. And our company was a key part of that because we on the early deployment list to go in and actually manage all the cargo and people that would be coming into airfields to support the operation and that’s what we did in Grenada. My platoon...my company commander, myself, and my platoon ... we had just come out of an exercise, a huge exercise, down in Florida training to do this very same thing for many weeks in the tropical environment so that it all fit well. We deployed to Grenada to run the airfield at pt. selines and that's what we did and it was very chaotic. A lot of people at that time kind of described Grenada as a convoluted messed up disorganized operation that demonstrated how the services couldn't communicate well with each other some of that was true but some of it was a little bit overstated because the operation was conducted with almost no notice the 18th airborne corp. units had literally no notice when we were told we were going to be deploying. At that time we had practiced deployments, no notice deployments all the time because of the situation in central America, and we would often fly units down there and they would practice and they would parachute in, or go in by ship, or a combination of the two and hang around and train for a few weeks and come home. That was a regular thing, getting an alert at fort Bragg those days to deploy. This was 1983; late summer early fall 83 was not an unusual thing at all so an alert in the middle of the night was not unusual at all. Well practiced but then people were told we were going to Grenada. Most people didn't know there was such a place called Grenada and assumed it was a fictional....oh well here's another training exercise and this time rather than call the enemy atlantians or something, which is typically used for calling it Grenada, so it’s an invented place. People didn't realize it was for real till they actually started passing out the live ammunition and giving the shots and all those things at fort Braggs green pope air force ...green ramp like we always simulated in previous exercises so my organization went down and parked at the end point selines airfield and just set up a very shabby tent… little tent operation because that's all we had. We were out in the dirt, it was dusty, it was hot, and we were offloading primarily c141 aircraft and after the initial we came in actually very, very, early on with the lead elements with the 82nd airborne division because that’s what the war plans and you did. And we set up an operation and it was very chaotic at first because c141 transport aircraft were arriving every fifteen minutes. Part of the airfield was under construction and all cluttered up and so you only one aircraft of that size could land at a time so one would land and it would taxi down to the airfield turn around open up we would offload it, it would take off and another one would come in and land just minutes after it took off. This was around the clock day and night. Our crew was working shifts twenty four hours a day and not long in the operation because of the short duration. We actually had to start loading planes out because a lot of the stuff that was brought in early on particular combat equipment like artillery and heavier munitions and things weren’t needed. The real fighting last only about a week there was some other events after that but it �became apparent that a lot of the forces that were there needed to leave and that we needed to start bringing in military police civil affairs people and people like that, you know for stability operations. So then what we had to do, is units would be told that they could leave, they would come near the airfield and park and get all their stuff ready and coordinate with us to we develop load plans and stage them all and do all the things you need to do to prepare cargo. And people you know to load on an airplane quickly leave and then when an airplane would load come and offload supplies you know we would quickly as we could have another load with people and all standing by that we could put back on it. And that went on for several weeks at a very hectic pace after about six weeks the whole operation ended and turned into a civil affairs operation. And in December… and we were actually along with the deputy commander Gerald Ferris we were actually the last unit to leave Grenada. Two airplanes came in at the very end and he and his group were on one and our last element with one fork lift was on another and that's how I closed out, so that's… that was my role in that particular conflict. BB: Just going back to kind of jog your memory about an early service. Where were you living when you decided you wanted to join the military? SW: Well it's hard to say exactly when and where. I was actually born in Durham, North Carolina and grew up there and went all twelve years k-12 to school in northern Durham County and it was a fairly rural area. A lot of us kids were kind of interested in military stuff we played in the woods a lot. We hunted and had guns then and I had lots of relatives that had been in WWII and Korean war veterans uncles and such and I had heard them talk and things. Although they didn't talk about it a lot, I just kind of became interested in it and liked the outdoors. And when I was in high school I decided I wanted to go in the military in some shape or another as a result of through college ROTC I wanted to do... I just wanted to try it. I didn't know whether I wanted to come out and go into the National Guard. I knew I wanted to be commissioned an officer and be in the National Guard, army reserves, the active army, or something of that sort. I really wasn't even settled on the army, I was just kind of going in that general broad direction. So I'll never forget I got to so I decided to go to the Citadel. Actually had narrowed my colleges down to two choices, Appalachian state and the Citadel. And I liked Appalachian because they had forestry programs and things like that that interested me, and they had ROTC. And then I ran across a Citadel recruiter at one of our college days in high school and they had some impressive literature. We used to joke later on that it was propaganda but it was interesting and I liked Charleston, South Carolina. I had been there so I said “gosh well I'm taking a military career let's go to the citadel and see what I really think maybe and then decide,” and I'll never forget that I was so unsure of it. I didn't know this but when I went to the citadel, everybody there, 100 percent of the corp. of cadets had to be enrolled in some ROTC, that's just part of the way the college worked. You don't have to go on active duty in any part of the military afterwards, but you do have to enroll in ROTC. So freshman year first thing we're standing in line being told what to do and we were told you know this line had to sign up for the ROTC you wanted I told one of the upperclassmen. I said “well sir I don't know which one I want to sign up for,” Hahira, and he said “just pick one and you can change later.” I guess I had kind of a perplexed look on my face and he said “just pick the army it's the biggest one.” And so that's how I decided, and got into army ROTC and enjoyed it. At that time the detachment officers, the NCO's that were there were very impressive they were all Vietnam veterans because we really hadn't been out of that �conflict very long so just about every career officer and NCO were, and they were really a sharp bunch. They were very impressive, they worked with us well. I like the sound of the things that they did during their career. There were pretty good mentors overall so I kind of got interested in that. And then, sophomore year, some friends and I found out about a program. The South Carolina national guard had to wear mummy... college students that were in ROTC could enlist in the National Guard and you know ... you know... you were automatically qualified to do that and you... they made you private first class immediately. Your something when you came in and then you could be a sergeant within a year or something, and we though, a lot of us thought it was a good idea because we didn't have a lot of money and... You know... you get paid for drill hush every weekend and again. I thought that would be a good introduction to the army, since I was leaning that way, so I did that. I enlisted in February, this is February 1980 my sophomore year, and then since it's the National Guard they can schedule when you go to basic training. So I enlisted in the National Guard field artillery unit in Georgetown, South Carolina. Just as a side note, this is a very interesting unit, second oldest unit in the United States Military called the Swamp Fox Battalion, named after Frances Marion, cause that's the area, Georgetown, South Carolina where Frances Marion operated in the revolutionary war, and our unit crest had the fox on it which was the Swamp Fox Battalion one of the oldest units in the military. So that was a very interesting and I went to basic training that summer at Fort Jackson, South Carolina and it was very hot at Fort Jackson in the summer. It was very interesting training and looking back on it, at the time, I just did it to do it but looking back on it I am glad that I experienced… since I had a career as an officer I was glad I got to experience what our entry level soldiers you know, get as their first training and indoctrination into the army. I found a very useful thing to have experienced later on in my service. The funny thing though is I had a I got home... I'd only been home a few days from basic training and waiting for the school year to start again and I got a call from a marine recruiter out of Charlotte. At that time the marines were doing a transition from older aircraft to newer aircraft aviation parts. She called me up and said, “hey I'd like to offer you a guaranteed marine aviation contract. When you go back to school your junior year, you change to Marine Corp ROTC and if you're physically qualified and you meet the requirements for you to graduate you automatically get in a flight training program. If you meet all the and...it's interesting, cause I'd always wanted to fly, but I just had come back from army ROTC. That experience with basic training said, “no thanks, I'm already in the army national guard, I just got back from basic training.” And then when I hung up I thought well this guy must think I am really a nut If I just finished army basic training and I turned down a flight contract to they probably didn't want me anyway. But anyway, that's just how I just kind of fell into the army program gradually not that committed you know. But I decided somewhere along the way, I don't remember when I decided I would seek a regular army commission and then I would go on active duty immediately after college, but I can't put a finger on exactly when and where. BB: Was there any time during you military career where you actually saw active combat? SW: Well, it depends on how you define active combat. If you're talking about kind of what you see in the movies, you know, throw a hand grenade and close quarter combat; I didn't experience any of that. And in fact up until the recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, most people in the army did not experience that since Vietnam. Because the conflicts we were in Grenada went by very, very, quickly and I was not in an infantry type unit, and most of the infantry that landed in �Grenada didn't engage in fire fights either. They did a lot of searching a lot of patrolling, certainly saw some of that, was certainly around it, heard it. We all felt like we were in potentially in some danger you know at first but didn't experience it them... but later on I participated in desert shield/ desert storm. There's a gap in what we're talking about and then I went into army special forces training was in fifth group and we did a lot of training in the middle east, and then in 19… I guess it was 1990... late 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Since that was our area of the world, in fact we had only been back from a training exercise in Jordan like sixty days when that happened. So we were one of the first units to deploy, and we were there a long time, and through the course of that conflict we did see... I don't know that anyone ever shot at me, I never shot at anybody. It's certainly possible at some time that closer to potential danger than we thought, you just don't know. You don't know those things, you really don't know what happened ten or fifteen minutes before you were there that changed the whole scenario, or what could have happened if somebody hadn’t have done anything else. But again that conflict was the United States Army in particular is... once the land war started used such overwhelming force, it was like a tidal wave, and although I saw the results of it, we were right there. Our job was to work with the Arab units, in the northeast Saudi part of the peninsula, a very multinational unit under Saudi leadership. So we were right there as they were doing their thrust of the east coast, and going into Kuwait city to liberate it. But frankly at that time I was more afraid of getting hit by celebratory gunfire. It was going on in Kuwait city by Kuwaiti's...then then then then enemy at that time. Then later on when I was in Iraq with the 1015 airborne division, again we had moments in the early part of that war where some of our infantry units did experience close combat for periods of time. Now later on it would be much closer... you know, you know as things change it’s a different story. But during that time period we were moving through cities and all in Iraq it was a very uneasy feeling you know especially later on as the counter insurgent started to pick up and there were incidents around us. I awakened one night where right outside our place somebody had come by our place and thrown a few hand grenades at our guards outside and things of that nature. But I don't know that I was ever directly fired at during any of these conflicts. BB: When you were overseas was there any way to contact your family? And did that progress as your military career evolved? SW: Well yes, there always was, but it changed dramatically during my military career. When I did the invasion of Grenada for example, we had no postal. At that point that was, this was 1983, there's no personal computers, there's no internet, none of that stuff. We had no postal service for a little while because it was such a hastily put together operation, but we did have after a while and we could write letters. There was a little army postal detachment and you could send letters out and you could get letters back as well. It would be a little slower than the mail service in the U.S.. Then again, when I went to Korea it was the same way. Communication was primarily letter writing and of course with the U.S. forces had been in Korea a long time there was a very developed postal system there. Letter writing was very reliable, of course it was slow, no computers, could talk on the phone. In fact at that time I was engaged to my wife, Meg, and we had very good phone service in Korea. So I could actually call her on the phone and go through an operator and the time difference was ... Korea is pretty much on the exact opposite time, twelve hours apart from the United States, the timing had to be just right to make a call. But, and �then sometimes the international lines would be clogged up and you couldn't make a call so we had good communications. It was just different than today, slower; you had to anticipate if somebody wasn't there. People didn't even have answering machines then really, so if you called somebody, and it just rang, and they weren't home you missed it. They wouldn't even know you had called, so there were different challenges. I remember calling back to my unit from down in Honduras, off the back of my air force jeep, I wasn't aware of it, but one of the forward air controllers that was with us, somebody had told me that you could make a call that I needed to call back to my unit cause we were out in the middle of nowhere, up in the mountains of the Guatemala border operating a dirt airstrip up there in a place named kookieaqua, and that was my first experience with this sort of thing. Is with the air force foreign air controller was able to patch, was able to make a call, a radio call to... to a mars station. They called them at Scott Air Force base, in Illinois, and was able to get a phone patch back to Fort Bragg so I was able sitting in the middle of nowhere talking off a little Air Force, you know combat foreign air controller jeep to be able to call back, but again, that was hit or miss. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/96dccec1e0720aa5a0b9c243b9248ec4.mp3 d46420e8fe53abdaccadc07b32d16332 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Brazaski, Ben Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:11:53 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. 6 pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steven Wilkins, 15 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Veterans Wilkins, Steven United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Steven Wilkins, Lt. Colonel, US Army, was born on March 27th, 1960. In this Interview Steven Wilkins describes some of the places he has been stationed outside the U.S. during his military career. He talks about being in Korea, Central America, and the Middle East. He mentions his specific job while in the Army. He also discusses his decision and influences to enter the Army and specifically mentions experiences as a child and going through ROTC. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/15/11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, Appalachian Collection, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Language A language of the resource English Ben Brazaski Fort Bragg Grenada Iraq North Carolina ROTC Steven Wilkins US Army