1 50 76 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d9fcb0fcb4469f2fbaa250a9deeaeb01.pdf 648b9d4bac1ab80bbcd4a2b3528a0465 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Date of Interview: Lieutenant Lyndon Bartlett U.S. Air Force 2009- present October 13, 2012 Seth Chesson: Alright my name is Seth Chesson and I am here with First Lieutenant Lyndon Bartlett. The date is October 13, we are in First Lieutenant Bartlett’s home and I am conducting an interview for an oral history project for Professor Brownings class. First Lieutenant Bartlett, I would like to ask you where you received your training to be an officer in the Air Force? Lyndon Bartlett: I graduated Air Force academy class of 2009.Colorado Springs. Chesson: And as an academy graduate have you noticed any prejudice toward or against you by other officers or enlisted personnelsince you’ve been in the military? Bartlett: Yes, if you work with academy grads and commanders you know it just depends if your boss is a grad or not. There’s definitely a good ol’ boy network between the USAFA grads. But other than that…there’s some good, good natured ripping you could say between ROTC guys and USAFA guys but the mutual respect is within everybody so no, no real prejudice, just you know, friendly competition. CHESSON: So have you had any commanders who were academy graduates who you noticed favored you more or gave you more praise or gave you more awards or anything? BARTLETT: No, no, not at all, not at all. There’s…my commander now is a grad and the commander I had before was not. There’s no…any good commander not gonna show favoritism from your commissioning scores. CHESSON: And How long have you been with the Air Force? BARTLETT: 3 years. CHESSON: 3 years.. BARTLETT: 4 years reserve 3 years active duty CHESSON: And you’re...are you currently looking towards a career or serving out your 8…your term? 1 �BARTLETT: I’d like to do career. Everybody…I mean its always good to plan to do a career and if something happens along the way you can get out. You should always practice like you’re going to be in the game for the long haul. CHESSON: Lets see…and…what do you currently do? When you graduated from the academy…well I guess what I shouId ask is when you graduated from the academy did your plan to do change from what you are actually doing or did you….is your job reflective of what you went to the academy to do? BARTLETT: Definitely. When I was a junior at the academy I..I lost my pilots license. They…the goal at the academy wasto be a pilot. That’s why you go to the Air Force academy because you do get favoritism as to who gets the pilot slots. They go to the academy first, so that’s why I went there. And then junior year I found out that I was born with a particular condition which is disqualifying for pilots in the Air Force. So that was pretty rough, there was a little cynicism on my part after that…but once I actually got out and I got my…I’m in cyber warfare that’s my actual career field, once I found out that career…once I got that and found out what it was actually about and the leadership aspects to the job and how many people you get to supervise and all that stuff it was….I really enjoyed it a lot. CHESSON: And cyber warfare, what exactly does that mean? I mean sounds pretty cool but what exactly does that kinda job entail? BARTLETT: There’s two branches, one branch is….is…either you have attack and defense….there’s one branch, the ASHRED, that is network defense, intrusion detection, aggression against enemies. So like China or…other 3rd party organizations in the Middle East. And then there’s the other half, the BSHRED, which is what I do, which is more leadership oriented. You’llmanage a squad at the base level, which for the Army equates to like Company leadership. CHESSON: And I’ll backtrack a little bit before to what you said before about wanting to be a pilot. So you originally went to the academy to become a pilot but when you were back in high school your main drive, like what I guess I should say like whendid you decide in your younger years that you wanted tobe an Air Force pilot and the academy was your goal. BARTLETT: Well everybody wants to be like astronauts or whatever when they are kids so I wanted to be a fighter pilot. So my dad was a pilot and that got me interested in aviation so that’s how I got the dream as a kid and then the Air Force Academy seemed like the best way for me to do that so it wasn’t necessarily that I wanted to be an Air Force pilot it just…the Air Force Academy, they produced the most pilots per capita, so that’s where I wanted to go and get a pilots license out of there. 2 �CHESSON: And was your dad in the Air Force as well? BARTLETT: No, not at all. Dad was a US airways pilot, he actually never went military at all so he was civilian all the way through. CHESSON: So the military was basically just an avenue for you to become a pilot not necessarily… a means to an end as opposed to a final destination. BARTLETT: Correct….Correct. But they always say in the military you join for one reason and you stay for another. So I defiantly joined for…you know…the whole cool aspect of being a pilot but I stayed for other reasons which is what I found out…you know the stability of the job, the prestige of it, you get good training, you get to work with good people, you get good leadership opportunities that are varying…you know I mean I was in charge of 45 people when I was 24 so that’s pretty rare not a lot of guys get to do that. So that’s why I stayed in and I really started to enjoy it. CHESSON: So you definitely noticed and improvement in your…well I guess…you know….your quality of life and your…you know…perception of self since you’ve been in the military? BARTLETT: Definitely, definitely. And I guess the military’s kinda like a microcosm if you will…it’s like the whole society you know you got different jobs. There’s support jobs, there’s operational jobs, and then there’s people…you know there’s real fast burners and then there’s guys that are just in there to punch their tickets every day. So its just interesting…you can see kinda all that within one military unit. You get a larger leadership experience through that avenue then you could…and you get a lot….you get that leadership experience a lot faster and you get a lot more of it at a very young age rather than at a….is the phone working alright? Than…rather than at a civilian job. CHESSON: …Lets see, and…so would…your cyber warfare, I’ll jump back to your current job…are you…is that a field….you said your with the BSHRED more of the leadership component….is that a job that you could see yourself staying in and progressing towards…you know if you stay career… you know becoming a Colonel or a General within that field or would you like to think of… you know switching up your branch and… you know joining some different avenue within the Air Force? BARTLETT: In the Air Force that’s pretty rare, you rarely switch branches, so yeah that’s definitely somewhere I could see myself doing. The ASHRED, probably not my style, I’ve never been a huge tech, you know, I’ve never been really into computer programing and the 3 �ASHREDS, they do some pretty high speed stuff, they do a lot of top secret crap. They do a lot of stuff they can’treally talk about but they also work in cubicles their entire career and all they do is look at codes so I mean, it’s really cool… CHESSON: And in BSHRED, would you get to go into a field environment in any point in time? BARTLETT: Yeah, yeah definitely that’s what you do in BSHRED. It’s a lot more leadership, you know, you deal with people a lot more, it’s not necessarily as technical as the ASHRED but I like the leadership and the people aspect of it I think that’s what I’m good at so that probably where I’ll stay. CHESSON: So during a deployment, what would you think that your day to day job would be as a BSHRED First Lieutenant your , you know, your daily task in Afghanistan or Pakistan or something would be? BARTLETT: Well there’s literally dozens of different jobs especially as, I mean I’m a First Lieutenant and that’s O2, in the Air Force, so as a First Lieutenantthere’s like dozens of different jobs so you could either be at a base, a large base managing a communications squadron or you could be at a FOB somewhere, forward operating base, I don’t know if you guys use that same terminology, you could be at a forward operating base living in tents and stuff just managing a radio tower or a satellite link. You could, they have, you know, airborne units that go and deploy to certain areas, they have that aspect of the job. So there’s all sorts of different jobs you could do when your deployed. It’s like anything, there’s literally a vast array of jobs in a certain career field that are, you know, there’s lame ones and there’s good ones. CHESSON: And you promoted fairly quickly upon graduating from the academy from Second to First Lieutenant, you know, you’ve only been in for three years, and are you upcoming for another promotion now pretty soon? BARTLETT: Yeah, just got selected for Captain, so that was good. CHESSON: And what entails you getting into that next rank. BARTLETT: Okay well the way it works is you submit, it’s all based on reports, so you submit a form, a promotion recommendation form that has the nine best, you get nine lines on this form to describe the nine best things you’ve done in your previous career and that’s all you get and all those, everybody does the exact same thing and a board of really high speed higher ranking guys looks at them all and ranks everybody in order and the top, for captain its almost impossible to not make it so like the top 92% of guys get picked. 4 �CHESSON: So would you say that going from O1 of Second Lieutenant to Captain is pretty easy for new officers? BARTLETT: Well Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant is automatic. There’s no evaluation at all. If you’re alive you make it. And First Lieutenant to Captain is selective but it’s not, it’s a high selection percentage. Then the first rank that really is competitive is Major, which is about half the guys get selected. CHESSON: And you said you know the 9 best attributes of you getting selected. What would you say…well like…what would you put on your Captain recommend…your Captains sheet so that people could look at you and be like This is…Lieutenant Lyndon Bartlett and he’s done this. What would you say your best qualities are? BARTLETT: ….Well usually its job centric. I don’t know how specific you wanna get there’s 3 categories on that form. There’s 3 blocks that the General in charge of your entire major command can award you. So there’s do not promote, which if you get that block checked you mean you either like murdered somebody or you got a DUI or something so the general is saying do promote this guy. Very rarely does that happen unless you really jacked up. Then there’s promote, which goes to 90% of people. Promote, if you’re in that category, that’s when you have to put the 9 bullets on, and that’s the competitive category. And then you get do not…and then you get defiantly promote, which if…if the top ten percent of your rank category if you get selected do not promote then your promotion form is blank and you make it automatically. So that was what I got so I didn’t have to put anything on there and actually like for me it was automatic. But you normally would have to put the 9 lines on there that was just a normal… CHESSON: Well I guess when I asked about the 9 lines…What would you have said to make yourself stand out from other…. BARTLETT: Ohh, well the things that make you promote are stratification so if you get selected for number one of…everything in the Air Force is ranked…or is…stratified, meaning if you are working with 5 guys you wanna be the number one of 5 guys. Or if you’re working with 20 people you wanna be the number or if there’s…you know…and there’s different levels so you could be ranked as the number one Lieutenant on the entire base, the number one Lieutenant in your squadron or whatever. So that’s one thing you defiantlywanna put on there. So if you’re good enough to get stratified by your bosses you put that on there ok? What?…(speaking to someone off record)…Ok so if I would have had to put 9 lines on there I got selected as number one Lieutenant on the base last year so I would have put that on there as like the biggest one, first one on there. 5 �CHESSON: You won, you won the…is that just with the Lieutenants or with all officers on the base? BARTLETT: No they do it in grade categories. So Second Lieutenant First Lieutenant are grouped into one category. CHESSON: So… BARTLETT: So out of all the Lieutenants on base… CHESSON: That’s probably pretty…a lot because its O1. BARTLETT: Right, or O2. O1 O2 together. There are a lot. But you compete at the Squadron level, which is Company for Army. You compete at the Company level, if you win that you go to the…Battalion level, which for us is called a Group. And if you win that you go to the Wing level which for you is Regiment. CHESSON: Regiment or Division, or I guess Brigade is technically above Battalion. BARTLETT: Yea our base wasn’t big enough to have a Brigade level, it was just a Wing for us. So you put that stuff on there and again if you won any awards, if you do things, you always wanna put stuff like that on there. So if you’ve done really well that year and you get a yearly award you put that on there. If you’ve done…if you’ve completed some really large base wide project like if you’ve…if you were in charge of this section you guys…and your guys got like maintenance unit of the year you wanna put that on there. Anything that shows your leadership is…is above and beyond the normal call of duty is what you wanna put that on there. And that’s what their looking for to see. CHESSON: What kinda..you know….special….like talking about special stuff that units have done…what kinda specialty schools or special programs…has your unit or yourself been selected to go into? BARTLETT: My unit..its…officers and enlisted have a lot…have very different training regimens. So enlisted do very…they do lots and lots of training over a long period of time because its…as enlisted person your expected to be an expert in your particular field and know the ins and outs and all the very specific regulations that are…that that entails. As an officer you’re not expected to know that. You’re expected to be a good leader, lead by example, but you’re also supposed to have a very broad knowledge of everything rather than have a deep knowledge of one area. So our training is very….is very…OJT oriented. By that I mean on the job training. So usually you just go shadow people….I did a 6 month tech school training when I 6 �first got out but that was kinda just a box checker thing. For the most part when you first come into the units as a Second Lieutenant you’ll have a whole bunch of jobs in succession. So you will do every shop in the unit you’ll go and rotate through and spend a couple of months in that shop so you can get a large breadth of experience in a very short period of time. So that way when it comes time for you to be a commander of that unit you have at least some knowledge of the workings of that area. CHESSON: So…you know…you’ve done…mostly what you’re saying is that you’ve got, you know, a lot of…mostly I guess you’re in more of a management position, you know, guiding your enlisted personnel who are trained specifically for the job and you’re just kinda there to supervise, refine, and make plans and stuff. BARTLETT: Absolutely, and that’s the same for any officer in any career field, especially in the Army. The Army is huge about that so…in fact you would be looked down upon if you tried to do an enlisted job because they would get…you would offend not only the chief of that section but you would offend that Airman or that Soldier because you’re saying to them I can do this job better than you even though you’re highly trained in that area, so yes, you’re supposed to manage the team, make sure they have their resources that they need, make sure they have the training that they need and the manning that they need and get out of their hair and make sure they’re staying on task. CHESSON: would you say that you’re pretty successful in doing that with your…do you work with many enlisted personnel? BARTLETT: Yeah my flight had 45 people, so that’s pretty average. CHESSON: Average…that’s about the size of an infantry platoon, about 44 BARTLETT: Yeah, yeah platoon leader…so exactly, that’s what I was, its occasionally rare for Lieutenants to do that but Lieutenants and Captains are usually platoon leaders…or flight leaders for us, flight chiefs. CHESSON: Did you notice as a, you know, working closely with the, did you work very closely with the enlisted personnel when you were a flight leader? BARTLETT: I had four senior NCO’s that worked right under me, and with those people I worked very closely with. But other than that I tried to stay out of their hair. If they were performing to par, I usually stay out of their hair and tried to take care of their people and make sure they were getting awards put in for them and taking care of patted on the back and there was one section… 7 �CHESSON: Tell them what to do not how to do it kind of thing? BARTLETT: Exactly, exactly. And they know what to do, usually they know what to do way better than I did cause I was so new and so fresh, I was just kinda there not to jack anything up. So I did have a problem with one section and, you know, then I had to get in their business a little bit. CHESSON: Do you want to go into that at all or is that kind of a private… BARTLETT: Okay, yeah sure, there was…its not private, there was one section that, when you first enter the Air Force as an enlisted person you take what’s called the ASVAB and I think you do that for the Army too…so when you do that you get branched out into a certain career field and there’s certain career fields that are harder to get into than others that require higher aptitude…well there’s one part of commof the enlisted version of communications where it’s a very low aptitude career field. It’s called knowledge operations. And all they do is manage records for the whole base, they just manage these large warehouses and its extremely boring and its one of the lowest aptitude jobs in the Air Force,it’salmost as low as cook. So, know, inherently by that you know that you’re probably going to have more problems with that section than with another section because you have lower aptitude folks that have less drive that don’t want to perform as high and that usually don’t get held to as high of a standard as everybody else. So the challenge is you have to motivate them either by the carrot or the stick to still perform well up to that hard level so I ended up having to, you know, punish several people, give out paper work, that sort of thing to certain people. We would have credit card issues, credit card fraud, poor financial management, there’s one guy that’s beating his wife, there’s a lot of personality issues that go on that you have to deal with as an officer that, you know, you’re kind of supposed to be the bad guy in that situation for that kind of an issue. That kind of stuff we had to nip in the bud pretty quick it was getting pretty bad reputation for that section in the unit so that was one of the challenges is dealing with that where you don’t want to crush the moral of the section but you want to find the people that are not performing and get them out as quickly as possible. CHESSON: And I guess as an officer you kind of, you know, have to look at it and like you said, kind of be the bad guy but at the same time you have to be the person that they look up to…you know…how difficult is that being the inspiration but at the same time being the disciplinarian? BARTLETT: Well if you’re tough but fair, they will always…they’ll be pissed at first, it doesn’t matter how mad they are, if you’re tough but you are equally tough to every single person, people will respect you, and there’s nothing they can say…as long as you’re doing the 8 �same thing…if someone shows up late to work and you hammer them with paperwork, and someone that you really like shows up late to work you better be hammering them with paperwork the exact same way or else you’re gonna have the look of favoritism. So as long as you avoid that and everybody knows that you’re dealing with the regulation, you’re following the rules, you’re not trying to make up stuff on your own, you’re not favoring one section over the other its usually okay, and they understand who the dirt bags are, some guys show up late to work four times every month, that’s a problem, and he knows, and even he knows that was wrong, everybody has a basic understanding of right and wrong and they’ll be pissed at first but, you know, you just, you do what’s necessary and you keep on rolling and that’s their problem, you know? You’re not there to make friends with anybody, you just…. CHESSON: Yeah, you’re there to do a job… BARTLETT: Exactly… CHESSON: And are you, you know, kinda switching gears a bit…are you looking at deployment any time soon? Or.. BARTLETT: The position I’m in now, I’m actually an instructor at the citadel so that’s a special duties assignment for me and its non-deployable, so no…I was slated for deployment last December but I ended up getting this citadel job instead which over took that deployment. So…for the rest of the year that I’m at this job I’m not deployable but I’ll probably get hit with a deployment soon after I get to my next job. CHESSON: And, you know, you enjoy…so basically at the citadel you would be a..kind of on par with a college professor. BARTLETT: Yea that’s what I am I’m a college instructor, I teach Air Force cadets. CHESSON: And as an Air Force…do you feel, I guess, well trained for that job? You feel like you, as an academy graduate, you have the appropriate knowledge to go in and teach other Air Force… potential Air Force cadets and potential Lieutenants to come in and do the job that you are doing now or do you feel like all the training you received has kind of not prepared you adequately for that? BARTLETT: Well, I mean I don’t know if I personally am a great teacher but I know that they train you pretty well. They make it pretty easy for you, the guys who send down the curriculum make it pretty straight forward, you just follow the certain…a certain set of objectives, you make sure you hit some certain points, and the rest of it is down to personal teaching style but as long 9 �as you care about it and they know you care I think you probably came across the best that you should. And a lot of its hands on learning so you can’t really mess that up, you know? CHESSON: Awesome, well it is great talking to you Lieutenant Bartlett and thank you very much for participating in our interview. BARTLETT: Perfect, glad to do it. 10 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/aa704530f5998f247e969c49c0f22512.mp3 37166991d96fc47c45387f62072df08c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 63.4 KB 39.2 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Air Force Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Lieutenant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chesson; Seth Bartlett; Lyndon Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Chesson, Seth Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bartlett, Lyndon Interview Date 10/13/2012 Number of pages 10 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:21:25 Date digitized 1/2/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code bd89f39cb4ecaa1279fda968b737410c 37166991d96fc47c45387f62072df08c Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Bartlett_Lyndon_20121013_transcript_A 5018_Bartlett_Lyndon_20121013_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lieutenant Lyndon Bartlett [October 13, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bartlett, Lyndon Chesson, Seth Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource First Lieutenant Lyndon Bartlett went into the Air Force because he wanted to be a pilot like his father who worked for US Airways. Due to a physical defect, he couldn't continue flying planes, but he went into BSHRED cyber warfare which he describes as very leadership oriented. He plans to make a career in the military. Subject The topic of the resource Bartlett, Lyndon Veterans Cyberspace operations United States Interviews Military Science Air Force BSHRED Colorado Springs cyber warfare First Lieutenant https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/31cf32a13c8fb7d1f7f2d4e7b2e0a37b.pdf 8a9144eb9272b4176efb321d6c425512 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Ambrose Brennan, Major (Retired) U.S. Army 1957-1982 Vietnam War October 12, 2012 Christian Quinn: This is Christian Quinn. The date is October 12, 2012, we are in Waxhaw, North Carolina. Today I will be interviewing Ambrose Brennan born on February 5, 1939, I will be conducting this interview as a class project for American military history at Appalachian State University, lets get started. What was your branch of service? Ambrose Brennan: infantry QUINN: what was your rank? BRENNAN: I started off as a second lieutenant and I retired as a major QUINN: Where did you serve? BRENNAN: Ft. Benning, republic of south Korea, Ft Bragg, republic of south Vietnam; Ft. Bragg; Ft. Benning; Stauffenenburg, West Germany; [Interruption by another person] Ft. Lewis; Pleiku, Vietnam; Da Nang Vietnam; Lockheed, Vietnam; Punji, Vietnam; Bandar, Vietnam; A Shau Valley in Vietnam; Dak To, Vietnam; Riverdale, Maryland in a reserve component; Ft. Campbell, Kentucky; Indianapolis, Indiana; Frankfurt, Germany; Ft McPherson, Georgia, and then I retired. QUINN: All right, where you drafted or did you enlist? BRENNAN: I was accepted and sworn in at the United States Military Academy QUINN: Went the ROTC route? Brennan: United States Military Academy, took the oath of office as a cadet, bang your subject to uniform code of military justice. QUINN: where were you living at the time? BRENNAN: Bronx, New York QUINN: what was your reason for joining? BRENNAN: I became aware and an admirer of a Lt Col. In my junior ROTC program who had been to West Point and he had flunked out, he was a paratrooper word war 2 veteran a really sharp guy a great catholic man, great family man, and I thought that if he 1 �flunked out and I could make it through maybe I could you know emulate some of the qualities that he had in the service, and I was not surrounded but there were few others cadets at the school I went to that went to the naval academy and to west point and they were really high quality people so at the age of I guess about sixteen maybe fifteen I decided that I should go to the naval academy and fly jets off carriers and be an aeronautical engineer, but I was colorblind so I had to go to the other school. QUINN: so why did you pick the service branch you joined? BRENNAN: well the service branch that’s another thing really the infantry, you know in the mind of an eighteen year old or nineteen year old young man as I was I was vaguely aware of these other branches but probably influenced by you know what I knew about the army which is mostly from movies I didn’t really recognize those other branches so infantry was really the only choice for me. QUINN: do you recall your first days in service? BRENNAN: yeah of course the first days in service are at Ft. Benning your going through infantry officer basic course which was at the time 8 weeks and you know it’s a course to prepare you to be a second lieutenant of infantry and to be a platoon leader and maybe a little bit about being a company commander. The course was not hard you just have to go through it learning all the weapons, fire all the weapons, land navigation. All the infantry trades and all the other I would call them administrative courses so it wasn’t difficult and there was a good spirit among these lieutenants I was going through the west pointers were blended with rotc cadets and we had a good time going through it and than we went from there right to airborne and right to ranger from there and than my first assignment was in south Korea as a platoon leader so I remember quite a bit from that yeah. QUINN: so what war or wars did you serve in? BRENNAN: well now they have classified the cold war so I guess the cold war started when you might say officially when Winston Churchill made his speech about the descendants of the iron curtain so that would have been 47, 1947, but the only shooting war I was in was the Vietnam war, the war in Vietnam which basically started, we started putting soldier in there in probably 1955 I didn’t get there until 1963 and I went back again in 66 and 67 and than of course the cold war was over when the Berlin wall came down basically in 1989 so the cold war lasted from 47 to 89 and than we had gone on to this other war I retired in 82 now the country is faced with this other war of Muslims who are basically Osama bin laden declared war against the united states in 1998 and so I guess you can say that is the official declaration of the Muslim war against the united states against the west and that is ongoing now and will probably be ongoing for 2 or 3 hundred more years QUINN: do you remember arriving, and what it was like when you got there? 2 �BRENNAN: yeah, and of course as a second lieutenant lets not talk necessary arriving at ft benning for training but arriving in your unit your anxious because you don’t know if you can fulfill the responsibilities that have been given to you or awarded to you as a second lieutenant. You have been trained and you have been commissioned but the real army, you haven’t really been in the real army and your trying to find your footing with your commander, the company commander, the first sergeant the other lieutenants in the unit but more importantly your platoon sergeant and your squad leaders and the men in your platoon so your thrust into a new situation you’ve been prepared very well for it, there is still quite an anxiety I think I felt but that anxiety works its self out over the first few weeks once you get involved in unit training and your responsible to give classes and to lead the platoon in filed training, in everything the platoon is doing but specifically with field training so yes I think the first couple of weeks you’re a little anxious to find your footing and particularly with your platoon sergeant that you have a relationship of trust and mutual respect with him but gradually if you understand that you can just work through it but there is a little bit of anxiety as you go in QUINN: tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences starting out BRENNAN: starting out… QUINN: or from anywhere BRENNAN: well one of the most important maybe not necessary a memorable experience I was blessed by having two people, two key people around me at the time, the first one was a weapons platoon leader who was an ocs graduate a veteran of the Korean war he was 9 years older than I was he was a first lieutenant he had been a e7 during the war and had come back from the Korean war in which he had won a silver star and he was from east Tennessee and he was a weapons platoon leader and he showed me how to be a lieutenant in every way in how I conducted myself, what we did for pt on revally runs, on how to conduct training, how to organize a lesson plan, how to research classes and conduct classes, and how to organize the company for training which is essential because that is really all a rifle company does is train for combat so all these training sessions had to have some linkage to them they have to be organized over a period sequentially over months and the specific training courses had to be assigned to either lieutenants or sergeants to give and that whole mechanism, the whole process of how to train a rifle company is a really important process well this guy knew it backwards and forwards and taught me how to do it and directed me when I was wrong and I think that was probably the most important things that went on with me during the first six months and the other part of it is the first sergeant if their was an ideal first sergeant this man was ideal his name is James a smith and he was a big tall drink of water from south Carolina very correct in every manner in which he dealt with commissioned officers always stood at attention when you were talking to him but what he was doing really was training lieutenants without them recognizing they were being trained which is one of the primary duties of a non-commissioned officer to train a lieutenant and to be in total cooperation with him but not really letting on that the lieutenant was being trained and not the sergeant so it really is an art form for NCOs’ so I think that was probably the 3 �most important activity that went on really for the first 8months 10 months that I was a platoon leader and that man went on to have quite an interesting career in special forces and I really didn’t keep tabs on him till about a couple of years ago and finally I got to see him before he died, he died last year a hell of a soldier a great guy and I’m so glad I got to see him few times before he died now let me see if there is another…..well I guess another key experience, memorable experience in a 1964 I worked with a guy named Charlie beckworth, Charlie beckworth was a one of kind, kind of guy, we were in the s3 section of the 7th special forces group, Charlie convinced the group commander to let him organize a group training up in the mountains of north Carolina Pisgah national forest and to this day he picked me and a couple of other captains and a captain form the British special air service and his sergeant, sergeant smith, to go up and set up the training which included land navigation, night compass work, rappel, mountain work with ropes , aviation and physical training for the entire special forces group ending up with a six day escape and evasion problem for the group members. Now the terrain in Pisgah national forest is such it was very exhausting, very physically demanding effort and I would say that was probably one of the best training exercises I had ever been part of and in my case I was one of the instructors and as a young captain I think that was very, it set a benchmark in my mind for how training should be conducted at least for special forces and how training should be conducted for infantry and than course Charlie and I parted company he went to one school and I went to another and I think that was another highlight in my career. QUINN: do you recall the day your service ended? BRENNAN: absolutely, now I was on a parade field on McPherson Georgia with my wife in attendance with my second daughter and my son, there was a short I think small parade there were about six retirees a colonel, two or three lieutenant colonels myself, and a sergeant major and we stood there on the field they pinned a medal on each one of us and thanked us for our service and that was it we went home, and that was the end of our active duty QUINN: so you were awarded that medal, what medals were you awarded BRENNAN: oh god QUINN: you don’t have to name them all, just some of the ones that mean a lot BRENNAN: well I was awarded the bronze star with v device, purple heart, about 4 meritorious service medals, two or three army commendation medals, and of course ranger tab, airborne wings, the others were service ribbons which are awarded if you are in particular place at a particular time in my case it was Vietnam there was about 4 or 5 service ribbons that are awarded when you are there you know I think that is it. QUINN: after your service ended what did you do the days and weeks afterword? 4 �BRENNAN: it’s kind of frustrating the days and weeks before several months lets say six months or longer before, you know I had my resume cracked up and handed it in two or three different resumes and I tried to scout out different jobs in the Atlanta area where we were located I don’t think I went on any interviews after I got out of the service of course I didn’t have a job I had to get a job and continued to pursue writing letters with resumes trying to make contact with various people I think during that period of time I probably got one or two interviews but It did not result in employment so I applied for every job I could find at ft McPherson as a department of the army civilian and I went down to ft McPherson about every two weeks and looked on the bulletin board to find jobs that I knew I probably could do and in the mean time my wife was working so we weren’t in the best financial posture so one of the things going on in the family it was kind of frustrating but gradually I finally opened up the newspaper one morning after about eight months and I said no matter what job I find I’m gonna put my finger on a job I’m gonna get that job today and as it turned out it was a job selling knifes and stem work………..door to door, and I got myself outfitted to try and do that and I can tell you I am the most unsuccessful door to door salesman that the world has ever seen and while I was doing that after about a month and a half of doing that I said again I’m gonna put my finger on a job I can do and it was the delivery of the Atlanta journal constitution, I went over and talked to the guy he called me about two or three days latter and gave me a route well the one good thing about delivering newspapers is that there is work to do everyday, Sunday in particular get up about 3 o clock go get your papers organize your papers and than you hop in your car load them up hop in your car and go deliver them and have them all delivered by 615. So I did that for a little while and than I was, one of the guys had seen I had applied for a job in what amounted to d3 to desk ops of ft McPherson and he called me and I don’t think that we had an interview he knew me so a worked it out so that I had got this job I applied for and got it that put me in a whole different level of operation I was a project manager for a national level exercise and so it placed me in a position where me and my team had to go to a nagathios tank in the pentagon or down to mcdill at that time it would be called recon about once a month and in the process of doing that over about a six month period I ran into some connections in Washington and another contractor up there offered me a job to move my family up there to take an analysis job up there in support of an army software project, at any rate I had promised my family I would never move from Atlanta because we had moved around so much I took a blood oath with them in Frankfurt and than id just asked them if they wanted to go and they all said yeah lets go to Washington so we moved the family up there and had this job and several years later my family was complaining to me about the traffic and I said well you guys told me you wanted to move up to Washington I was content to stay in Georgia and they said a well dad we lied always those are some things that happened along the way QUINN: during all that how did your service and you know experience in the military affect your life, how did it help you? I’m sure in many ways BRENNAN: well ill have to say that your fundamental personality, fundamental values are engendered by your family and your family surroundings in my case my father was an atheist and my mother was a catholic so I was raised a catholic and I went to catholic 5 �school and the catholic school and catholic church and than Christian brothers who taught me in elementary school and as well as high school all that forms in the child a basic personality and an environment of outlook so after I had been I went to military school for high school military boarding school, catholic military boarding school and after having being there for awhile I just thought the logical thing for me, now because my parents didn’t have any money for college the logical thing for me was to go to a warrior service academy so I started of with the naval academy than of course WestPoint, went to marine academy, coast guard academy, the air force academy was not in existence at the time and the new York maritime academy, I think had been into college, and in the mix of all those colleges and in moving through that I finally got into west point and of course the high school military environment and than WestPoint the environment there they put the points and they polish up in there own way the value systems that your family your mother and father and your church have started you out on and they Polish those values up and point you in a direction of leadership of soldiers and all of that mixture of events in a persons life that carries totally on through your entire life that forms the basis of who you are, what you do, how you deal with everyone else, and that motivates you in whatever your doing and whatever duties you have you learn as part of that basis that you are going to perform each duty your assigned or each responsibility that you take on in the best way you can and the most perfect way you can and you get into a habit of performing even the littlest task maybe something that doesn't seem on the surface as important maybe as something lofty but if you begin to perform that task as best you can that idea that process within you allows you to be given more responsibility and perform higher and larger tasks should you be allowed, should you even be afforded that opportunity as you go along so I would say my family my schooling my elementary school my church my high school and WestPoint provided a structure of values and exposed me to a value system but I had to apprehend, had to grasp those things and search them out in my own life. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/40704e9086df45dfb738dfdddc5fdee9.mp3 d10fe1e40495f10dc7683499ce5e8a79 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 59.1 KB 26.9 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Major (retired) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quinn; Christian Brennan; Ambrose Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Quinn, Christian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Brennan, Ambrose Interview Date 10/12/2012 Number of pages 6 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:29:13 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 264dfb763cd2a14c0e58f5235412c0ca 7d12063eaaa732e607f5293fb58f3165 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Brennan_Ambrose_20121012_transcript_M 5018_Brennan_Ambrose_20121012_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ambrose Brennan, Major (Retired) [October 12, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brennan, Ambrose Quinn, Christian Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Major Ambrose Brennan, born in 1939, entered the infantry after graduating from the US Military Academy. He didn't really consider any other branch, he just wanted to do what they did in the movies. The majority of his service was during the Cold War and he says the only "shooting war" he served in was Vietnam. He was awarded a myriad of medals, including a purple heart. Subject The topic of the resource Brennan, Ambrose Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 United States Interviews Personal narratives, American Cold War infantry major purple heart US Military Academy Vietnam War https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8b028347e5036e950ceac2b1229c46a1.pdf 0438be77f4784f3de41264658926f74f PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Sgt. Matthew Bulla. October 6, 2012. Boone, NC to Charlotte NC Brian Abdo: My name is Brian Abdo. I’m here with Matt Bulla for a interview on August... I mean October 6, 2012. This interview is taking place over phone. He is in Charlotte, North Carolina and I’m in Boone, North Carolina. This is for Dr. Browning’s class on American Military History. Right now he is a drill sergeant in the United States Army. Alright...Question 1...Sgt. Bulla, When were you…Where were you born and raised? Sgt. Bulla: I was born and raised in Wilmington, NC. Brian Abdo: Alright...This is a question we have to ask. When were you born? Sgt. Bulla: November 4, 1986. Brian Abdo: Alright… Sgt. Bulla: Oh, one question real quick. You’re on the army; I’m not in the army. Brian Abdo: Ok… which branch are you in, Navy? Sgt. Bulla: Marine Corps. Brian Abdo: Marine Corps. Alright. When and why did you choose to join the military? Sgt. Bulla: I joined in March, 2006 and I didn’t want to be one of the people that complained about our military and wanted to say at least I did my piece. Brian Abdo: Do you have a family history of military service that inspired you, or were you the first one to join? Sgt. Bulla: My dad is in the army. He is a United States Paratrooper. And then my granddad was in the Korean War and it was always something I wanted to do and carry it on. Brian Abdo: Did they inspire you or is it just your own decision to go in? Sgt. Bulla: It was my own decision to go in. Brian Abdo: Alright..Do you recall your first days in service? Sgt. Bulla: Do I recall them? Brian Abdo: Excuse me? Sgt. Bulla: What was that? 1 �Brian Abdo: Do you recall your like first days in service? Sgt. Bulla: Oh, yes. Brian Abdo: What did they feel like? Sgt. Bulla: It was the worst experience in my life. Brian Abdo: How about boot camp. How hard was boot camp for you? Sgt. Bulla: It was basically a life changing event cause you go from being basically a civilian in doing your own thing all the time to being told how to eat, how to sleep, how to take a shower, how to do everything their way. A total just life changing experience. Brian Abdo: Talk about your instructors. Like were there some that you liked a lot, or did you just hate them all? Sgt. Bulla: In the Marine Corps, I hated them all. I absolutely despised them. They were just hard, tough and basically they were just constantly demanding on you no matter what it was. They were just all up in your face, all the time, for three months straight. Brian Abdo: Which wars did you serve in or tours have you done so far in your experiences? Sgt. Bulla: What awards? Brian Abdo: Yeah…I mean wars. Like…like which experiences have you done so far. Which like… which tours? Sgt. Bulla: Tours in 2007 to Iraq. On a Response Team. All we did was we blew up bombs. People wouldn’t run over bombs. We blew them up. We’d rescue them. We rescued teams going down. We did a lot of clearing houses and clearing villages and Fallujah, Khalis, Ramadi all different places in Iraq and I returned from that deployment in April 2008. I deployed again in April 2009 back to Iraq. For the retrograde of Iraq were we moved to Afghanistan so we moved to more war. That’s where it was that I received the Navy Marine Corps Achievement Medal. As a corporeal, for moving over four million dollars of equipment I got a Good Conduct Medal, three Unit Commendations, one Presidential Unit Commendation, and then a National Defense Medal, a Global War on Terrorism Medal, Tala-Action making, and that’s pretty much it. Brian Abdo: That’s a lot of medals. Sgt. Bulla: All my…All the medals that I...Navy Marine Corps Achievement Medal my highest award. One of the highest Marine Corps awards you can receive. Good Conduct medal, Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Medal, Global War on Terrorism Medal, and two...two Presidential Unit Citations, two…four Letters of Appreciation, four Certificates of Accommodation, and that’s pretty much all my medals. Brian Abdo: Which Base Camps did you stay at in Iraq? 2 �Sgt. Bulla: Base Camp in Iraq. My first time was Camp Al-Tacadumn which is about four miles outside of Fallujah and then we moved to Camp Ramadi which is about twenty miles outside Fallujah. And then my second deployment was at…outside this huge base and I was tossed out to another base which was Khalis and then out to..hold on..ommit that… Brian Abdo: … Sgt. Bulla: There was another one...yeah Khalis was the big one. Brian Abdo: Alright..Did you interact with civilians there at all? Sgt. Bulla: Did I interact with who? Brian Abdo: The civilians over in Iraq. Sgt. Bulla: Civilians…Yes my first employment I did. Brian Abdo: How was that? Sgt. Bulla: People over there, you got to understand it’s a totally different lifestyle. Like everything we have here is not. They’re about two or three like thousand years behind us. They have no…like their running water is like America’s first stage. It’s all pulled out of a river. Like basically little use where farm beds come out. They have no outer toiles and like plumbing like that is completely different. And the people over there, like they…they don’t understand. Like our basic things that we do every day driving cars is not custom over there. They walk everywhere, they don’t have tractors, they…everything they have is imported from us or from other countries. And it’s just the people over there; there is a huge respect for the..the men in that culture. Over there, women are just there basically to produce babies and men are just there to help one another pretty much. And it’s just the lifestyle over there is completely...it’s like really hard to explain...it’s…it’s totally different. I guess you could say. Brian Abdo: Yeah, I understand that. Did you see any changes in the attitude towards the American Military after you got over there? Sgt. Bulla: Did I see them? Brian Abdo: Yes. Sgt. Bulla: What you see on TV is not reality. Cause you here about all the bad stuff that happens but they don’t tell a lot of the good that goes on over there. They…Like when we read the Iraq…When we read all the cities that we basically blew up and tore apart. You don’t hear about that. Everybody’s all about Oh the Marines did this or the Armies done this and so many people got killed but what they don’t talk about how we rebuilt cities, how we rebuilt road, how we basically just won the hearts and minds of the people over there. They want us there to keep them safe from the insurgents that were over there. Brian Abdo: Alright…Do you have a couple of memorable experiences over there? 3 �Sgt. Bulla: Do I have a few memorable experiences? Brian Abdo: Yeah, that you’d like to tell. Sgt. Bulla: Nah. I lost two of my good buddies over there my first deployment due to just IED’s over there. Craziest thing I can say about that is like everybody like complains about how they don’t want American troops over there but America...The whole eye of America does not see what truly goes on behind the scenes over there and to see what the Marines do, and the Army does and the Navy and how we all rebuild everything. How you basically go from nothing all the way to a full city of people who respect you and want you there. And it’s just...it’s amazing what..how...just a few people that join out of the military go right out of high school to join the military what they’ve done for like the whole country and it’s just remarkable to see. Brian Abdo: After your tours in Iraq, what did you do for a while? Sgt. Bulla: After two…After my 2009 deployment I got back from Iraq to Camp Legume and I went to Marine Corps Base Hawaii. I was in Hawaii for three years and I’ve been out there as part of a [Combat Resistor Battalion 3]. We...we did the whole entire Marine Corps matrix on how to inspect vehicles. I was on a fire crew team that revamped that saved the military about twenty five thousand dollars a year. And now I’m down at Marine Corps depot in Paris Island as a Drill Sargent. Brian Abdo: Compared to your tours, how enjoyable was this job for you? Sgt. Bulla: How...how...what was that? Brian Abdo: How enjoyable was this job for you compared to your tours? Sgt. Bulla: I would rather be overseas because when you here it’s basically just preventative stuff that you do. Getting ready for war but when you go over there and put everything into action it’s a whole lot better. Brian Abdo: Alright…While over on your tours, did you feel a lot of stress dealing with your job? Sgt. Bulla: On my first deployment, yeah because I was constantly outside the wire and in contact with insurgents. Brian Abdo: … Sgt. Bulla: It’s completely stressfully just for the simple fact of you not knowing what’s actually going to happen. Brian Abdo: Were there things that you did to entertain yourselves to relieve your stress? Sgt. Bulla: We played a lot of spades. We played a lot of card games. Spades is the number one. Basically just doing a lot of weight lifting and staying physically fit over there. One of the big things is I kept my mind off of it and all we did was pretty much work out and play spades and wait for letters. 4 �Brian Abdo: How...how often did letters arrive? Like once a week or something like that? Sgt. Bulla: Yeah, about once a week. Kind of get busy, you get about once every two weeks. Brian Abdo: Alright…What do you think of your officers that were in your overall command? Sgt. Bulla: First deployment, my commanding officer was a First Lieutenant and one of the most amazing men I’ve ever met. Captain Hen...His name was Lieutenant Henderson and just an amazing man. Never ever wouldn’t we leave without him. I mean he was there constantly anytime we had anything pop off he was there and he wasn’t afraid to pick up a gun at all. He was there beside us every time. My sec…my second deployment, I didn’t see a lot of my commanding officer because I was the main one in charge on my second deployment. Retrograde in Iraq. So the second one I really couldn’t tell you about. He was just there to just supervise. Brian Abdo: Alright...Did your military experience you’re thinking about war or about military in general? Sgt. Bulla: It just inspired me to go back and keep making changes. Brian Abdo: Alright… Sgt. Bulla: I just want to constantly give back to the Marine Corps for what they have given me. Brian Abdo: Alright...This is the last question I have. Is there anything you would like to add that we haven’t covered in this interview? Sgt. Bulla: Don’t believe everything you see in the news. The news is just…they just want to show highlights and they don’t really tell the truth. And if a whole lot did a whole lot more research they’d figure that out. And they just...What they see on CNN is not always the truth and that’s what a lot of people believe about the Armed Forces what they see on TV and it’s not the case. Brian Abdo: Alright…Thank you so much for this interview. I know it was a little bit out of your way to do this. Sgt. Bulla: No, it’s alright. You’re very welcome. Brian Abdo: Alright, thank you. 5 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0db82eb75950c39612c96c32b9e418c7.mp3 9e1d3f09cf046d0989c48d8f0d1f926d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 82.3 KB 12.3 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Drill Seargant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Abdo; Brian Bulla; Matthew Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Abdo, Brian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bulla, Matthew Interview Date 10/6/2012 Number of pages 5 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:13:32 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 39a4b270dd051f455918b6bb77f17c23 9e1d3f09cf046d0989c48d8f0d1f926d Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Bulla_Matthew_20121006_transcript_M 5018_Bulla_Matthew_20121006_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Drill Sergeant Matthew Bulla [October 6, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Abdo, Brian Bulla, Matthew Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Drill Sergeant Matthew Bulla, born in 1986, entered the Marine Corps and served on a response team in Iraq. He speaks a lot about the civilians he met in Iraq and how they seemed to be "two or three thousand years behind us." He explains that the war is not like how it was reported, and that the US military did a lot of good there winning the hearts of civilians and rebuilding cities. Subject The topic of the resource Bulla, Matthew Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews civilians insurgents Iraq Marine Corps Response Team https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b8f89507e064a025be2474b9356bea19.pdf 9e0ba619f66ff2f7acac2b096bca332a PDF Text Text Nate McQueen Military History Interview: 05 OCT Appalachian State University, Boone NC ME: We r in Boone North Carolina at Appalachian state university my name is Nathan McQueen and I will be interviewing SFC bush for American military history oral history project ME: So sgt bush where were u raised SFC BUSH: I was rais~d in Germany, and Mississippi ME: and how did that affect your interest in the military at all? SFC BUSH: Well my father served 29 years in the army and I grew up a broad all over the world in military bases so that kinda influenced me in the fact that was the kind of life style I wanted to me a part of. ME: And when did you choose that you wanted to join the military? SFC BUSH : Early part of 1990, January bout January February 1990 ME: And have you been in continuously since then? SFC BUSH: I have, 22 years of total since ME: wow .... And which branch were u initially serving in? SFC BUSH: National Guard complete ME: Ok, So you have been in the National Guard the entire 22 years SFC BUSH: Yea, I enlisted as an m-day solider traditional. And then in 1993 I went active duty for the National Guard ME: Can you define m-day solider? SFC BUSH: m-day soldier is a traditional soldier; they perform duties part time for the National Guard. T~1ey serve one weekend a month and two weekends during the summer serve part time and that was my initial assignment and then in 1993 I had the opportunity to go active duty full time for the guard. ME: What made you want to pick this branch of service? �SFC BUSH: It just happened that way ...... there was no I mean there was no, it was just what was the most accessible at the time. ME: alright sounds good, sou mentioned that your father was ~!ready in the military. Was that one of the main factors for you wanting to join the military, or was it more for school? SFC BUSH: A lot of it had to do with my father, but some of it had to do with my current situation within the community. I wasn't headed in the so called right direction so it was basically I needed to do something to get out of town. And in the sense but I knew the military was something that would come in my path sooner or later and it did and I'm thankful for it now. ME: so when did you first go to basic training? SFC BUSH: 13 February 1990 ME: Can you describe some of your experiences while you were there? SFC BUSH: it was pretty good. I mean it's still basically the same concept as it is today. It was 8 weeks back then. I went to ft sill Oklahoma, so it was all male, we didn't have any females there. Strategically it was all combat arms so was no female recruits with us, it was all guys. It was a good times. Met a lot of cool guys, still talk to one of them. As a matter of fact, but overall it was a good experience, it gave me some motivation and direction and ... good foundation. ME: Are there any outstanding memories you have from there or is it just all pretty much a blur? SFC BUSH: No I remember a lot of it, 1 mean still today I can basically take you through basic training. But uh.. probably the most memorable would be the confidence course, it was rainy muddy and it was just a lot of fun we came in and we were just packed full of mud it took us 4-5 days to get everything clean. It was just a really really good time. ME: Can you describe what the confidence course was like SFC BUSH: It is an obstacle course basically it was what civilians would know as an obstacle course. Some of it requires team effort some of its individual part, but its different obstacles you had to maneuver. In a certain period of time, and it was just a lot of fun. Like I said the trenches under some of the obstacles were full of mud and water and it just made for a really really good time ME: I had similar experiences like that from basic training and its definitely memorable. SFC Bush: Those are the ones ... ME: Have you ever been deployed in your military career? SFC BUSH: I have, I have been deployed three different times. �ME: Where to during those ... ? SFC BUSH: I was deployed in 1990 to Desert Storm. I did most of my duty at Fort Hood because by the time we got ramped up and were certified to go across the water things had ended. It was basically a 100 hours war. We remained on active duty for about 7 months so that we could get our VA benefits and finish out training at NTC and places like that. Then in 2001 , 1 mobilized and when to Bosnia Herzegovina for a peace keeping mission, and spent 7 months there. And then in '05 I ramped up and when to Iraq in support of operation Iraqi freedom. ME: What was your initial MOS when you enlisted? SFC BUSH: Initially I was a 13F forward observer, basically I was the eyes on target, enemy target to call in artillery and destroy those targets . .ME: and have you changed MOSs or have you remained the same SFC BUSH: I am a 13 F ultimately but right now as a recruiter I'm a 79T which is recruiting duty ME: What kinds of duties did you perform while overseas? SFC BUSH: In desert stonn I was basically a pvt so it was whatever I was told to do. Worked in the artillery there as well I mean as a forward observer world I was a pion I was nobody as far as rank went. In 0 l I was a platoon sgt for an artillery cell that was in support of an infantry battalion and basically our duties there was to manage 28 weapons storage sites there in country. We keep track of the weapon·s whether or not they were moving them, when they needed to move then for training. All that had to go t through our cell. And we would do surprised inspections on those weapons storage sites it was probably one of the better deployments I've ever had because of the weapons systems I got to see and track and it was pretty cool. 05 I went back as a fire support guy, fires support NCO for the task force I was involved with. And basically our function was to acquire High Value Targets or high value target area. And provide artillery support for our forces on the ground ME: Did your unit suffer any casualties while you were deployed SFC BUSH: Yes ...... (long awkward pause) ME: Have you been a 13F the entire time? SFC BUSH: Well with the exception ofrecruiting duty I'm not a 13f per say now it's my secondary MOS but once I leave recruiting and go back to the field I'm always a 13 F ME: Have you been in the North Carolina National Guard the entire time, or. .. ? �SFC BUSH: Negative, I stated my guard career in Mississippi and then in 2008 I moved to North Carolina. ME: Have you been awarded any medals or citations in your service? SFC BUSH: A few, I cwn a ... I own 6 AAM and 5 RCOMs, overseas service ribbons, NATO service medal. Oh my gosh .. . ME: Can you define the first medal you said AAM? SFC BUSH: AAM, Army Achievement Medal it's for doing stuff that's above and beyond. Your normal duties, the RCOM is another one it's a little bit higher it's the same. Its going above and beyond the what your are required to do, setting the standard exceeding the standard and performing the duties above what is required of me and you get acknowledged for that and so I've strived myself to do that in my career. ME: You mentioned that your first deployment was mostly stateside how long were your overseas deployments. SFC BUSH: again I spent 7 months in Bosnia and I spent 5 months in Iraq so 12 months a year total time overseas ME: And what were your barracks and living conditions like overseas? SFC BUSH: In Bosnia it was nice we lived in a base camp that had what we call .... "Huds" they were wooden barracks, 4 men to a room, 4 men to a building and you know shower facilities everything was there mess hall, very nice, comfortable living. 05 in Iraq started out down south for about a month in what we call 2 man little uh .... Cans is what we called them. Basically 2 men in a little building looks like a conex it's been refurbished has air conditioning in the window wall locker, two beds, shower facility it was ok. But Then we moved up north we occupied a bombed out facility. Sand bags no shower facility no mess hall we basically ate "T rats" and MREs for four months and basically lived in a shit hole ME: And how did your morale differ between you and your troop between the two different. .. SFC BUSH: areas? ME: areas SFC BUSH: Down south we were really relaxed wasn't as stressful of an environment we weren't shot at. When we went up north and basically got into the so called fight in support of the 2°d Marine division up there it took a toll on you, I mean you were getting shot at almost daily you were constantly in firefights and we were losing guys and you know the stress level was heightened and we were we were, ya know basically fighting for our lives up there �ME: It must have been rough ME: And then you have the weather to deal with on top of that. I understand it really hot but can you just in some way describe the level of heat? SFC BUSH: Its difficult you know its 112-120 something during the day in a matter of an hour or 2 hours it drops down to 80 something degrees at night. But people think that 80 is not that cold but when you drop 40 something degrees in an hour's time it takes a toll on your body it's a shock so you have to be prepared for both. I mean again 80 degrees doesn't seem that cold night but when you drop that drastically that fast in temperature and your body has been hot all day you have to be prepared for that. ME: I'm sure it would be a shock for your system there ME: When you were deployed how did you keep up with your family? SFC BUSH : The most recent deployment in OS technology has caught up with to so Skyping and email and things like that are very accessible, in certain areas. We had one small computer lab that eventually got established up there where we were so it was 4 computes and you kinda basically rotated in when you could. But always back to the good ole pen and ink, You know, paper and a pen and writing letters, care packages and things like that. M E: So what kind oflasting relationships have you developed with people that you've been in the military with? SFC BUSH: I have I got some good lifelong friends. I have one in individual we have been serving with since we both joined. He's actually in active regular army now. He is a recruiter out in Arizona but he's basically what I would call a life friend. I could pick up the phone any day of the week and he would be there, same for him. Kids I've put in the guard I've kept up with to see them graduate college and move on into the real world or to out to active duty. It's been for me to its been good for me to know that I helped them accomplished that. It's been a good expenence ME: What has your interaction been like with the officers in your unit? Good, bad or all the above? SFC BUSH: For the most part pretty good you know every now and then and I'm sure it goes for us as well it is what you make of it, for the most part most of my leadership has been pretty good throughout out my care rive only had maybe one or two officer that I just couldn't get along with. Or just didn ' t fit with so to speak, for the most part most of my leadership has been pretty good ME: Would you say the same about your subordinates or has that been more of a challenge dealing with them? �SFC BUSH: I would hope that my example in leading by example I would hope that they could say the same about me, that you know having watched SGT Bush and learned from him I was influential or played a significant part of their lives as well and that's what I strive to do to lead by example. ME: As an ROTC cadet I will be a future officer here what kind of advice would you have for me progressing through my career as an officer? SFC BUSH: Take care of your people. I can't stress that enough it's probably the most important. Get to know your people. Understand the way they think so u can know them and learn how to plug them into critical tasks. Utilize their skills and assets, is probably the most important thing as a leader, first line leader especially, Is knowing your individuals and what they are capable of and learning how to utilize them, but definitely take care of them is the ultimate. ME: That's definitely good; do you have anything else you would like to add in closing? SFC BUSH: No, it's just. ... Proud of what I've done, I Jack a little bit for retirement so I'm very proud of my career and consider it to be pretty accomplished in my yes anyway and that's what matters to me, but just thankful for the opportunity of serving my country. ME: Well we definitely all appreciate it too thank you for your time, this concludes the interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 986 KB Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. National Guard Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McQueen; Nate Bush; Steven H. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. McQueen, Nate Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bush, Steven H. Interview Date 10/5/2011 Number of pages 6 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 9d16ba4b649902009058fb35e92128e3 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Epson Perfection V600 Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Document Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Bush_Steven_20111005_transcript_M Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steven H. Bush [October 5, 2011] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McQueen, Nate Bush, Steven H. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Steven Bush, raised partly in Germany and partly in the United States, grew up in a military family. In the early 1990s he enlisted as an m-day soldier, and then he decided to go for full active duty in the National Guard. He did his basic training in Fort Sill and was deployed three times to Desert Storm, Bosnia, and Iraq. Subject The topic of the resource Bush, Steven Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 Persian Gulf War, 1991 United States Interviews Personal narratives, American Bosnia Desert Storm Fort Sill Germany m-day soldier National Guard Operation Iraqi Freedom https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/029eac141b67e1cb0bd3098707abc153.pdf 27f4f101b038b27f647c3cce95658d74 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Tom Collins (Sergeant) U.S. Army 1967-1970 Vietnam War October 14, 2012 Joseph Lingo: This is Joseph Lingo here interviewing, Mr. Tom Collins, a retired veteran. Mr. Collins, could you please state your date of birth and where you’re from? Tom Collins: My date of birth is 2/4/43 and I’m originally from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I’m a Philly boy. Lingo: Could you tell us a little bit about your early life before you were in the military? Collins: My early life Ok. When I was eleven years old, I was the oldest of four, the youngest being five. My mom passed away of a woman’s cancer. So being the oldest of eleven years old, I had to take over while my father had to work. So I had it pretty rough as a youngster. I could not enjoy my childhood as well as my two brothers and my sister did. So, when I came home from school, I had to get the dinner ready at eleven years old. And while my two brothers, Joe and Eddie, and my sister Mary Anne were out playing, and when they came home from school. So, that went on all the way until I graduated high school. Whatever. Got married at twenty years old, which was too young because, it did not last but about four and a half years. About twenty-four and a half years old. At twenty-five, I get a letter in the mail stating that I’d been drafted. So at twenty-five years old, I was drafted. Didn’t have a clue (laughs). Didn’t have a clue. Had I been working…I was working already for five years at a bakery in Philadelphia called Tasty Cake. And I am about 5’11”, 212 lbs at the time and not really in shape, but not bad. But, all I knew was, I knew I was going to Vietnam sooner or later. So, being drafted, had to go to Fort Bragg, North Carolina for basic training. And had it rough. Had eight weeks of rough, because, by the time I was done, I had bloody hands, calluses like you wouldn’t believe. But from 212 lbs I went down to 185 lbs of all solid muscle, in a matter of speaking. But it was good for me, really. Made a better man out of me than I was already. So, and from there, went to Vietnam eventually, which most of us did. Got to Vietnam and the replacement center over there , and what we would do when we got off the plane. We got there at night. And all you can see is…mortar shells, in the night, just going back and forth. And I got off the top step to come off the plane, and I just said “Oh shit! I know I’m gonna die.” First thing a guy thinks of, I mean, here I am, a city boy, never shot a weapon in my whole life. Yeah, I’m sorry, shouldn’t say that. I used to go hunting up in Pennsylvania with my buddies for deer and pheasant but other than that, I’ve never shot a rifle, so to speak. And, I, you know, took my step off that plane. You just know that you were going to die. That’s the thought of everybody that goes, that went there. Believe me. Because we talked later and everybody thought the same thing. “Well, I’m not coming home.” I 1 �thought the same thing. And, got off the plane, and all you could do. It smelt like you were in an outhouse. That’s what it smelt like there. Like you were in an outhouse, standing inside of an outhouse. I said “Oh shit!” But, from there, we went into a bus. They drove us somewhere and next thing you know, we’re being placed in different units. Now, myself, I went to military police school in Fort Gordon, GA. Lingo: This is the army, right? Collins: Yeah. Yes, the United States Army. Correct. Military police, we had, were in control of all the military. There was no such thing as MP’s at that time, in the Marines, the Navy, Air Force, or whatever. Air Force had Air Patrol. Navy had SP, Shore Patrol, but the Military Police were over them. So we had jurisdiction over all the military as Military Police. And, but that’s all changed from what I understand today. Everyone has to go to military police school in their own organizations. Military, the Marines, Navy, Air Force and it’s all changed. So, so, anyhow, we go, and the next thing you know we’re standing outside and this SGT comes walking down He’s telling people, you’re going here, you’re going there, you’re going there, you’re going into the infantry, you’re going to such and such a unit, you’re going here, you’re going there. And this guy’s sending me out into the jungle as an infantry. I say “Whoa Sarge! Yo! I wasn’t even trained for the infantry.” I said “I was trained to be a Military Policeman.” I said “What the hell you doing?!” You know, I didn’t get too cocky. Because, he understood what I was saying, and he had orders for military police to certain companies to go to. So, he said “Ok, ok. Collins.” He said “You go to the 716th, Company A which is located in Saigon.” I said “Ok.” And then there was a couple of other guys that were assigned to the 716th in Saigon. But there was A, B, and C companies so I was thankful for that, I think. Untill, pretty thankful, I guess. Now, I figure, well, whatever. Do you mind? I got to have a swig of water. Lingo: Yeah, that’s fine. Collins: I get to talking too much, I get dry. So…Now let me see. This is 19,…1968, January. And anyhow, when I first got there as military police, we had shit duty. Consisting of, you had to sit in a tower at a depot, all around Saigon. Saigon consisted of all the generals that ran the war over there, all the big officers. Where their headquarters or their billets were in Saigon and the 716th Military Police which is the 18th Battalion were the ones to take care of them and make sure nobody bothered them in a manner of speaking. Getting to the bad point here. Which was the Tet Offense. I’m glad I was on patrol at the time. Eventually, I earned myself patrol which you don’t get right away when you’re a newcomer. You got to earn that. Lingo: Would you briefly describe patrol? What that means, exactly. 2 �Collins: Yeah. Patrol: 12 hour days and what is it? 151, no, M51 jeep; no top. You didn’t have a top on because you can see on the roofs and the tops of the houses and buildings of Saigon as you patrolled your district, just like a cop. We had an M60 machine gun mounted in the back of us with several thousand rounds. Plus we carried an M16 and a .45 military issued. Plus a vest, a vest, steel pot. The vest, thing must have weighed thirty pounds to wear that thing. And we just patrolled on anything unusual. We’d look into or if we got a call to go to a fight in a bar. Things of that sort. Shooting, whatever the radio operator from the military police building would send us depending on what patrol you were working. I worked the fifth district so most of the time, if not all, while I was there, I was in Car 51 and the guy on the radio at the police building. Can’t even think of the name. We called him Waco. So, anytime Waco called you, you’d respond to him. He’d just say like for instance “Car 51. Car 51 this is Waco.” So either myself, depending on who’s driving, or my partner who would pick it up and answer him “Waco this is 51.” And he would send us possibly to a fight, a shooting, or whatever. And come to find out, while I was there, not knowing how big, as far as the surroundings, Saigon, Vietnam was. Come to find out, there was like five million people that live in Saigon. And five million people, you didn’t trust them. Not a one. Not a one. You didn’t know who they were. Many times, many times, they were VC. What they were called VC, Viet Cong; the enemy. You just had to constantly look while on patrol, day or night. Night time, thankfully, I’m glad in a way I had day patrol while I was there. 12 hours on, 12 hours off, no time off. I think for about three or four months after I was there, you just go out and have a couple beers, shoot the bowl with the guys, whatever, or you just stay and write letters, or whatever. But…I was always on the defense; every day, every minute, every hour of the day. If you weren’t you couldn’t really let yourself lose, really, and not pay attention to your surroundings, and to this day, 43 years later, I am still the same way. I don’t trust anybody I don’t know, to this day. I go out with my wife to a restaurant, and I have to sit in a certain area so I can see everybody, because I don’t trust anybody that I don’t know. The only people I trust are veterans, my brothers. Other than that, I always think that “I don’t know you, I don’t know you, I don’t trust you, I don’t trust you.” Because that’s the way it was there. You don’t turn your back ever on anybody, ever, in a combat zone, other than your own buddies; your own brothers. Because it’s happened, number of times. Just like we’re on patrol, I’ll give you an example. Day time, night time, it doesn’t matter. Day time, these Vietnamese people would drive these little Hondas. There’d be two on one most of the time, on a Honda, when they were going to work. There were times where it happened, didn’t happen to me, thankfully, they would toss a grenade in our jeep. You got to understand, you’re driving a jeep and you got amongst you thousands of people on Hondas! It’s like you’re in the middle, they’re on the sides, they’re in front of you, they’re in back of you, you got to be constantly looking, all the time. I used to teach my guys that because once I made sergeant, I had to teach all these young guys. I was 20, I turned 26, man, and there’s guys that are 18, 19 years old that I’m working with. That’s the 3 �oldest they are. They were from cities, like myself, and a lot of them were from Ohio, New York, Detroit, cities like that. They were like me, you know. They didn’t think like this before. And once you’re older, and because of my upbringing, because of what I had to do at a young age, I had a lot of common sense and I knew what to look out for and whatever; roof tops, you got to keep your eyes on the roofs, because it happened, when Tet started, they were on the roofs, everywhere, the snipers. They killed, you know. We had a lot of my brothers killed as military police. When the VC attacked Saigon, in Tet, what they called Tet, was the New Year for the Vietnamese people. That was what they called Tet. And, this offense became known as the Tet Offense. Now, thank god after it was all over, I come to find out, approximately, there were 4000 VC, trying to take over Saigon. And there was a thousand of us in A, B, and C Company of the 716th Military Police. We each had a section of Saigon, out to Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base, that was C Co, and B Co was in the middle of Saigon,. I was in A Company, which was in Cholon, which was known, they were mostly Chinese people that lived in the Cholon area, which was a bad area. So I come to find out later on. It was a very bad area, Cholon. There again, you just have to keep your eyes open and be prepared, and keep a round in the chamber at all times. You don’t want to have to stop, when somebody starts shooting at you, you don’t want to have to stop and say “Wait a minute!” <click clack> Put a round in your 16, your .45, you better have a round in there all the time. Just be able to take the safety off and do what you got to do. And that’s what happened when the shit hit the fan. Eventually, it hit the fan, man. I mean, unbelievable. It’s in books, there’s pictures of us, the military police, the 716th,…we lost 24 brothers, man. I mean, from snipers up on the roofs picking MPs off at the embassy, which we had…the Marines were there protecting the embassy, the American Embassy there. And, there was only two Marines, which was a joke, so the Military Police were sent there to protect the ambassador and whoever worked there, and whatever and all that. We lost like…eight or nine MPs there alone, just picked off, laying in the street, laying by their jeep,…the VC, what they had done was built tunnels across the street, and they would come under ground, across under the street, and up into the embassy, into their grounds. And, the guys, the MPs that got there first, all around the embassy, they see these little V, these little Gooks, they called them Gooks, or whatever, the VC, the Viet Cong, they see them popping up out of the, out of the dirt, you know? And they just picked them off, once they found out from various areas of the grounds. Just like I said, they build tunnels across the street, right under the embassy. They were prepared. And…you just killed as many as you could, because if you didn’t they were going to kill you. There’s no doubt about it. You had to do what you had to do to survive, otherwise you were dead. You’re just dead. “It’s not a game.” That’s what I used to tell my young boys. “It’s not a game.” ‘Cause once I made Sergeant they gave me a squad of 18 and 19 year old fellas. And like I said, I’m 26 years old now. So…you try to teach them. You just don’t trust no body, you don’t get too close, other than your own brother here, and that’s it, 4 �man. Bar girls and that kinda stuff, don’t get too close. You don’t know who’s who, and…it’s unbelievable. Tet Offense went on for several weeks; two and a half weeks. That’s all it was; shooting and killing for a couple two and a half weeks or so. Unbelievable. It was…it’s like you could make a movie out of it. But, my understanding from it was that when it was all over, we killed, so they say, over 2,400 of them. And we did get help from the…I think it was the 25th Infantry came to help us, so…we drove them out, you know? They were dead all over. Streets, and if you look up, if you go buy some DVDs, you’ll see, you’ll see that, in the streets, dead just laying all over,…our MPs are in the streets dead, too, stuff like that, which…I was glad, I was glad to get home! At the end of ’69. I was there for two years. They wanted to make me E-6, but I said “Nah.” I was offered E-6 and a $5,000 bonus, and that was 1969. And I said “No, I don’t think so. I just want to go home.” I still have three months to go now, so, each day, man, it’s just, it’s like, each day, man. You’re just looking around, you don’t want to get involved, because what happens is if you get involved in a killing now, or whatever, it’s like, you can’t go, because now you have to go to a court and all kinds of junk. Now you got to understand, we’re working with civilians, and we’re military people. We’re in their country, so what happens is, [brief interruption from Mrs. Collins] a big major shooting goes on, and now you got to go before a court, because you killed one of their people, or whatever it was. So, just things of that sort, because it’s not like Tet. Tet was over now, so now we got everything under control in the military. Back in Saigon we got it under control again. And…right before I left, about three weeks no, not before I left I had four months [counts months to himself], I had five months to go and had two of my buddies killed. They were on patrol, they were second shift. B Company, and I knew them , and I was just talking to them at the PX, just when I got done with my twelve hours, I went to the PX, I had to buy some stuff, and these guys were given' the regular guys a break, and the PX, and all your main head quarters or buildings for the…big officers always had an MP outside. Lingo: And “PX” is…? Collins: The Commissary. We called it the PX at the time…[ Post] Exchange…I forget what the “P” stands for, it’s been so long, but the “X” stood for “Exchange”. Well, that’s the Commissary where you go buy cigarettes, and whatever you want, cigarettes, liquor, clothing, like…civilian clothing, shoes, and stuff, cameras, you could buy cameras,…and I didn’t know at the time, but you could buy a car, and have it ready by the time I came home. I could have bought, like, a ’69 Camaro for half price. Uhh, God, when these guys told me what they done I said ‘I didn’t know you could buy a car!” They said “Yeah, at the Commissary, at the PX!” I said “You’re kidding! What?” Yeah, they had an area, you could buy books, you could buy any car you wanted that was out at that time. If you were there in ’68, you could buy a ’68 Camaro, you could buy ’69, you could buy a charger, and just, any kinda car you wanted <brief interruption from Mrs. Collins>. Any engine you wanted, and I didn’t, man, I didn’t know that, cause when I got home, I bought a 5 �’69 Charger when I got home, so, whatever. I could have gotten it a lot cheaper and with a big, big engine, I didn’t know. Whatever. I,…there again, my two buddies, brothers I’ll call them. Each of them had three weeks to go. They were getting ,counts months to himself., they were leaving in September, and on the 31st of June, they worked the second shift, they were Company B, and they were told to go to a bar fight, and they went inside the bar to see what was going on and whatever, and next thing you know, we heard it later at night, we were woke up and told us that both of them were shot and killed in the bar while they were on duty. A…an ally killed them. One of our allies; a south Vietnamese officer, a major, shot and killed them; he was drunk. They didn’t have their pistols drawn or nothing, man. He just come out drunk, coming upstairs room in this bar, and the story we were told was he had this .45 in his hand, and he shot and killed both of them as they were coming up the steps to see what the ruckus was, and I just got done talking with them several hours ago, shooting the shit with them, and, whatever. And to this day,…in honor of them, I have their names on my vehicles; our, my two vehicles we have here; my wife’s and mine; I have there, in little, in little white print, I have their names and the day they were killed. On both sides of my vehicle, back window, side windows; on each of my vehicles. In honor of them. So, every time someone looks at them, I want them to think of them two guys. I lost other guys, other buddies too, but uh… Anyhow, I couldn’t wait it get home. Guys in the field had it rough, in the jungle, but a lot of them weren’t shot at as much as the MPs were, in Saigon, believe me. Because Charlie, they called VC Charlie, too; he was known as Charlie; he wanted to make a big hit and Saigon was the capital of Vietnam. So, if they could take over Saigon first, now the Tet offense, the VC on the same day started, which was the 32st January, they started this Tet offense at once, all over Vietnam. Not just Saigon, it was all around Vietnam. They tried to take over all the cities, and whatever, and it was just like all hell broke loose in the country of Vietnam at the time called the Tet Offense. It wasn’t very nice, it wasn’t very nice, let me tell you. Let me tell you. Cause now, you’re even more spooky on patrol, as myself, and my buddies and brothers, were even more spooky. I didn’t trust anybody then, and now I m even worse, until I was getting ready to leave. I stopped, I caught, 5 deserters over there, in Saigon. Un-freaking real. Can you imagine being a deserter for five years? For four years? I got one with three years, and one for two years, and I think one for one yea. That sounds strange, but I did. And you know, just by stopping guys ,and checking them out, and looking at them, and saying “something’s wrong with that guy, I know it. I can tell by the way he’s dressed.” You know, I mean he’s got fatigues on, jungle fatigues on, and a bonnie hat, but something’s wrong. He’s got the wrong shoes on. He don’t have boots on. Or if he has boots on, there’s something, there’s just something wrong.” And I used to teach my younger guys “when you’re on patrol, you look out for certain things when you stop a person.” And that was unbelievable. I come to find out that the desk sergeant “Hey SGT Collins, this guy’s a deserter for five years” and I said “you got to be shitting me!” What they do when they go desertion, you know after they go AWOL after a 6 �certain time, then they’re deserters. what they do is they stay there with the Vietnamese people and they live with them people, and those people give them false identification, and they make up ration cards; at the time you had a ration card, you could only buy so many things at the PX, at the Exchange, and you stop a guy and you ask them’ for their ID, and you can tell by looking at their ID that something’s wrong with it, the coloring is off, and what unit are you with and where’s your pass, and they make an excuse up, and so you get on the radio, you call in, Desk SGT calls back, they never heard of them, they don’t know who he is, so you say okay, and right away you cuff them. But first, you, you search them. So, here I am m, I have three weeks to go, so now I’m training y young guys, and they know what to do by now, but I always tell them, I said “while I’m on the radio, you keep an eye on him. If he tries anything, you do what you need to do.” So I’m searching this little fella, that I, that I stopped, I put him up on the wall, just like a regular cop does, we were trained like regular police were. And, found this little guy, had a .45 tucked in the front of his belt, covered over with the jungle fatigues because it covered them over, see, you weren’t tucked in or nothing, your jungle fatigues, they were just laying out. Well this little guy, had a .45 tucked in his belt, in his belly. I felt that, boy I got, you don’t know, like this right, and I took it out. And I had him spread, you know with his feet and his hands up on the wall. And when I pulled that out, I just kicked his foot, his leg from under him, and he just went <whap bang>! Down on the ground! And then I checked the .45 that he had, and don’t; he have a round in the chamber. That even pissed me off even more! He had a round in the chamber, which means ,if he had the opportunity, he would have used in on me or my partner! It was ready to shoot. All he had to do was pull the trigger. That pissed me off even more! So, I cuffed him right then , and I basically threw him in the jeep. I had to watch what I was doing, because there’s people around, because it’s a PX, it’s a civilian area, a military area where people are going into this exchange area to buy stuff, so you had to be careful, but I did give him a couple shots to the ribs before I threw him into the jeep, and I got to talking with my partner, I said “See that? Don’t ever take your eyes off anybody you stop, never!” I said “Now, just to say we put him in the jeep without searching him,…because maybe he’s sweet talking you or some bull. He’s got a gun, with a round in the chamber, were driving the vehicle, he’s sitting back there cause were gonna take him to the station, and he pulls that out,” I said “because you never searched him ,or you never cuffed him neither.” I said “I just want you guys, you guys, to know, what you got to do, man. You just can’t trust anybody.” I was glad to get home, well not the way I was treated though. I flew back to Philadelphia on December 21st, or the 22nd. I think it was the 22nd. I thought I was, I thought I was welcomed home, but I wasn’t. Once I got in the airport, I was spit at, by two guys walking in the airport and they called me a “baby killer”, and I just didn’t understand what was going on, cause I wasn’t told about it in Oakland when I was getting out of the army. Now they must started telling people behind us, when they were getting out, because they were told “Don’t even wear your uniform to home.” To me that was bull shit because I’m wearing my uniform home, because was proud of what I done. Thankfully I came home alive. There 7 �were 59,000 guys who didn’t come home, that were killed. 59,800 something. So,…at least I was alive. My workplace didn’t want to give me my job back after working there for five years. I was pretty well pissed after I got home, I really was. I think after couple of days, like less than a week, I wish I was back in Vietnam, at least I had the respect of my own people. And I knew I could trust them, too. You get home,…you were treated like shit. I couldn’t understand it. I just got bitter. More bitter. I think I got bitter form that, a lot. And I drank a lot after that. Drank a lot. Didn’t care. Didn’t care. I looked for a fight, anytime you wanted a fight; I was ready. For somebody to say something wrong to me. I’m ready to kick you’re ass, or you’re going to kick my ass, either or! But I’m going to let you know. “Don’t talk to me that way”, or whatever. I guess what I was looking for was respect for what I done, and I didn’t get it. To this day, I just don’t, I never forget it. I tell people that, I said “If I could come across those two guys that spit at me, I was carrying my duffel bag, and I was just happy to be home, those guys looked over at me and just both of them spit at me, and called me a ‘baby killer’. And I swear to God, I didn’t know what was going on. I just, I stood there dumbfounded and dropped my duffel bag and looked at them. And I just said ‘What the hell just happened here?’ If I was on my, my game, I’m gonna say, cause I had a .38 in my duffel bag that I took with me. I would have shot both of those guys, I really would have. I would have killed them. Or I would have shot them in their knee caps. I really would, cause I didn’t care what happened to me. All I know is you treat me like this,…if I wasn’t as happy, so to speak, as I was, and glad to be home, honest to God. I would have grabbed that .38 out of my duffel bag and would have just went after them and shot them. Simple as that. You ain’t spitting at me no more. I didn’t deserve that. Who the hell do you think you are, spitting at me after I just, what I went through. You don’t, you don’t know what I went through…You don’t walk in my boots, so to speak. Anybody who ever says anything…You don’t know what a Vietnam Veteran went through, or a World War Two Veteran, or a World War One Veteran. You don’t know what they went through. You don’t know what I went through; ‘cause you didn’t walk in my boots.” And that’s that I was thinking about. I was afraid, every day, even though I was back in the city, a city of 5 million people; you didn’t know who was who. And it’s the same shit that’s going on in Afghanistan. Their regular,…so to speak, their military is shooting our people in the back. You’re supposed to be allies, working with one another. And you wonder why these people, these men and women, who come home, and why they are the way they are. It’s… Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is what it’s called, believe me, I mean, been there. I’ve seen guys that are really bad with that. I know guys, to this day, that are bad with that and it still continues with them today. Forty some-odd years later and it still happens, some guys. And, it’s not their fault. It’s the country’s fault. Vietnam was a bad war. It should have never happened. Never. The government had no respect for us at all, and the people neither at that time. It just wasn’t right. Too many people, over 58,000 people got killed and it wasn’t right. A bunch of kids, a lot of them, bunch of good kids like you and,…like yourself and your friends. And they weren’t given the respect,…anybody can tell you that was in Vietnam, bad war. 8 �Really was. Really was. No respect for us, and it pisses me off to this day. I’ll never forget it and I’ll never let it go. People say “How can you hold on to that?” You don’t understand! You weren’t there! You weren’t treated like I was when I came home. I was ready to, “Holy shit! Why are you treating me like that?” I even asked the cab driver that took me home from the airport. I said “What the hell was going on?” Why am I being treated like this? I said “Holy shit! Is this the way it’s going to be?” You know? I said “If that’s the case,” I told my father when I got home, I said “If that’s the case, I want to go back1 At least I was treated well there by my own people!” My brothers and all, you know. But, of course, that didn’t happen. I thought it out and went back to my old job, ‘cause I…I threatened them to go to the government, you know. It was a big company in Philadelphia, the bakery, I was there five years already and I went back looking for my job about a month later, and…”Oh, we, someone else is on that job.” And I said “So?” I said, “I’m guaranteed my job.” I said, “I didn’t ask to go. I was drafted.” And, you know, whatever. And that guy, that boy, that boss, that supervisor, I wanted to kick his ass, right then and there. I wanted to kick his ass,…I felt bad because he was smaller than me. And that’s probably why I didn’t do it! Because I would have dropped him right there, believe me! And I just, I just got so pissed, and I said, “Well you know, we’ll see about that.” I said “I’m going to go to personnel and talk to them.” Which I probably never should have told him that, because he ran in the office when I went over to go get the elevator to go upstairs to talk to personnel. I know he ran in his office to call them and tell them that I was on my way. “Well, you’re a hot head. You got a chip on your shoulder.” “Well son of a bitch! I’m deserving of my job and you don’t want to give me my job back? What do you mean I got a chip on my shoulder?” And even after I got my job back, years later…”Tom, you got a chip on your shoulder.” I said “I don’t got a, I don’t have a chip on my shoulder, I’m just telling you like it is! And you don’t want to hear it! That’s the problem!” You know. If I have something to say to you, you’re telling me one thing, and I have an answer for you, and that answer you don’t want to hear, that’s what it is. Don’t tell me I got a chip on my shoulder. Where I used to drink at around the corner from where I lived in Philly, I used to go to, walk to the bar, and became friends with some guys. This one fella used to sit there after he’d come from work, and he had an office job. Me, I’m busting my ass all my life as a laborer, but whatever. I used to go in for some drinks and got friendly with this fella, and he used to tell me after a while, when we’d talk. He said “Tom, you got a chip on your shoulder.” I said, “Man, don’t you freaking tell me I got a chip on my shoulder just because you don’t want to hear what I have to say.” I said “You don’t want to talk to me, I could care less, I mean, I’ll go and sit in that corner, that’s not a problem”. I come in here to get a drink, and you don’t want to be bothered just because you don’t like what I got to say. I have a chip on my shoulder. Yeah, okay. People don’t like it when you tell the truth about things that they don’t want to hear, that they really don’t. Whether it’s about the Vietnam War, or I have a problem with the way veterans are treated today, coming back home, I have a problem with that. My wife and I donate to about 4 different, things for the military, which I’m proud of. 9 �We don’t have a whole lot to donate, but we do, several times a year, for each organization, a few dollars helps, here and there. But, the way they’re being treated when they come home, it’s the same junk the way I was, the way I was treated, all us Vietnam Vets, when we got home, were just treated like dirt, honest to God. They didn’t want to give you your jobs back, they didn’t, they didn’t want to hire you because you’re a Vietnam Vet. In other words, you were a bad person. “Oh we were doing what our country, the United States of America, asked us to do.” And for that, we’re bad people, you know. I mean, I just,…it’s very hard to understand. It really is. That’s about it. I mean, I’ll be 70 years old very shortly, and…I should have died ten years ago. I have a thing form Agent Orange, which Agent Orange was a thing that was sprayed in Vietnam, to kill all the foliage, the trees and everything, It was supposed to kill it all, which it did, and its killed a lot of Vietnam Vets too over the years, that come up with cancer. There must be twenty five to thirty different diseases that they found out Agent Orange caused, and mine is…I had a five way bypass done, ten years ago. Now I have a Pacemaker defibrillator, and this is my second one, as you can see the scar up here is my first one. And what they had to do was change one about five months ago, because the battery was running low and it was no good. So they had to move the pocket and put a new one down here. And what it is, defibrillator Pacemaker is they have a wire that goes down my heart. So if I have a problem with my heart, one or the other will take over. So, and, I didn’t find this out until as far as what caused it until about a year and a half ago. All these years I had been home. And they finally caught up with me ten years ago. I had a heart attack here, because my wife and I had been living here for twenty six years, and…one day at work, Monday morning, bang! Heart attack. So, that was April 22nd, ’02, right? Yeah, ’02. And, ’03 November was when I had to be cut, and I had a triple bypass, well, apparently, two, two of the…of the veins didn’t take. So, before the doctor and team went home, because it was a Saturday morning and they don’t do heart, things, transplants, or no, not transplants, heart operations on Saturday. They normally really don’t do it, but apparently when they tested me and did my thing on Friday afternoon, they seen, they were all, up in the high 90’s that were blocked, all of them. So, I was a candidate for Saturday morning, and down in Charlotte,…so, they cut me open, did me an ICU, and something wasn’t right. This I found out later through the head nurse. She said “Tom we thought you were gone.” She said, and she said “I had to call the doctor, get him back here,” She said “In all my years as a head, as a nurse in ICU, I never seen what happened with you; with the machines. In other words, these things where they go ‘beep beep beep beep beep’ well they’d go ‘beep beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeep’ it’d stay there!” She said! And she said “I had never seen that before!” And she said “Oh my gosh!” She said “I knew I had to call them back!” Which the doctor knew, that when she called back something was wrong. So they had to re-cut me open. That’s why the scar is so thick. Normally now it’s like a little hair. Or normally now what they do is they come up here, from what I understand; under your armpit. And, they had cut me re, they had cut me open again, and they do two more. She said, she said “Tom, you,” she 10 �didn’t tell me, she wouldn’t tell me, and I was trying to get it out of her. She said “You shouldn’t be here.” I said “Well where should I be?” Now you got to understand, this is my first time being in a hospital my whole life, and I’m 59 years old , in a hospital, with a heart attack, and open heart surgery, and all this other junk ,and she said “You should have, you should have gone.” I said “Gone where?” You know, I was trying to get her to tell me. I was trying to hear her tell me that I should have died. She said “You should have passed.” I said “What are you talking about?” I kind of knew what she was talking about; I just wanted to get her to tell me. I said “Are you trying to tell me I should have died?” She said “Yes”, but she didn’t want to put it in them words. She said “Yes, Tom. You should, you should not be here.” She said “All of the nurses up here, all the nurses in ICU don’t know why you’re still here. In fact,” she said, “we started calling you ‘that miracle guy’”. I said well, I guess the good Lord wasn’t, my wife would say “He wasn’t ready for you to go up there and give him a hard time!” I said “Probably not, I guess I got more work to do; I’m not ready yet.” And that was ten years ago, and I’m very thankful, really. That was tough, man….I was in the hospital for nine days, and that was tough. Anyhow, that was all my understanding, and the VA said that it was form all the Agent Orange being sprayed, over in Vietnam. Now where I was, over in Saigon, I come to find out, through people, by reunion people, we have a reunion every two years, the 716th Military Police, every two years we have a reunion somewhere, and those guys were telling me “Hey Tom, did you know that Saigon was the second, if not the first, heavily sprayed area in Vietnam? And do you know why? Because of all the generals that were there, and all the officers that were in Saigon, their headquarters, where they… billets were and the hotels they stayed in, and all that kind of stuff. That’s why. So when they sprayed, they sprayed like hell, to kill everything on the, on the outside of Saigon, you know? That’s why. And a lot of us, being, well even them people living in there, us being MPs and whatever, we’re breathing in that stuff every day. So ,and it,…a lot of my buddies dies, have dies, from what it done to them; giving them cancer. It’s a cancer causing thing. It really is, amongst a lot of other things that they found out, over the years. I do get compensated, a few bucks for it. Not a whole lot, but it’s something, I guess. So I’m living my life! Very interesting, especially when you’re in the military. I think, I think, by the way I was treated, I often wondered, I stayed, went back or said “Yes, I’ll take that five thousand, now I can order my car!” Like a ’69 Camaro, or whatever. But I didn’t do it, and I probably would have made a life out of it. Because I was good at what I done; at Military Police. And that was why they wanted to make me E-6 <Staff Sergeant>, because I was good at what I done. I mean, I stopped a lot of thing from going on,…I’ve seen two VC, on one of those Hondas, stick, C4 <plastic explosive> on one of the military buses. And I didn’t know what it was at the time. I was watching, and as I watch people, and we had a military bus, that brought a lot of these military people to this PX, in Cholon. And just watching this Honda, with two guys on it, you know the little people. And all of a sudden I see the Honda stop, and the guy in the back goes like <motions with hand> and they took off. So what does that tell you? Well that 11 �tells me he just stuck something up on the left, rear,…wheel well! And right away, I couldn’t leave my post, because I was the fella that was working the front gate. So I called in for a patrol right away, and I told them, I said “You better get the bomb squad here!” I said “I’m positive, I’m sure they just stuck a piece of C4 Up there.” And they were going to wait until that thing got loaded, and then blow the damn thing up., with all them people in it. And sure enough, it was; it was a plastic on that rear wheel well. So because of me, thankfully, and I was given a citation for it, which I was, just doing my job, but whatever. That’s all I got to say! And I’m hoping I can live a lot longer! Lingo: That’s pretty incredible!... Collins: And I have shot and killed people over there, not because I wanted to, but because I had to. One time we were going on duty… The rest of the interview is lost because the recording equipment ran out of room on its storage device. 12 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b70f1e0de4833b34f2764dc83b9d0c0c.mp3 142d6d37781e4065eace3aded14cf064 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 59.6 KB 118 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Sergeant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lingo; Josheph Collins; Tom Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Lingo, Joseph Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Collins, Tom Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:51:50 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code a86579bd35619a295936d42d1f3c7e29 142d6d37781e4065eace3aded14cf064 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Collins_Tom_2012_1014_M 5018_Collins_Tom_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sergeant Tom Collins [October 14, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lingo, Joseph Collins, Tom Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Sergeant Tom Collins, born in 1943 in Philadelphia, was drafted during the Vietnam War and went to Fort Bragg in North Carolina for his basic training. He entered the army and was trained as a military policeman. He served in Saigon on a patrol squad. He says to this day, even in civilian life, he doesn't trust people he doesn't know after his experience in the military and having to constantly be on the look-out. Subject The topic of the resource Collins, Tom Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 United States Personal narratives, American Interviews army draft Fort Bragg military police Saigon Vietnam War https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/743715ab18c5681888859a72b26a6ff1.pdf e7e50c5bb928a09ba1a8992c8c75a43d PDF Text Text Zachary Curtis American Military History Dr. Browning 10/17/201 1 MYSELF: I am here with Lieutenant Colonel David Cox, Professor of Military Science for Appalachian State University. Good afternoon sir how are you? COLONEL COX: I'm doing just fine thank you. MYSELF: Would you state your name and rank for the record please sir. COLONEL COX : David W. Cox. Lieutenant Colonel United States Army. MYSELF: And what branch are you sir? COLONEL COX: I'm Infantry. MYSELF: Alright. How long have you been in the service for sir? COLONEL COX : Right around 22 years. MYSELF: And the date and place of this interview is October 3rd and is in the office of Lieutenant Colonel. Sir what year did you get commissioned? COLONEL COX : 1989. MYSELF: And why did you choose to join the United States Army sir? COLONEL COX : Well growing up I always wanted to be in the military: Originally I wanted to go into the marines because a lot my cousins were in the marines. But I went to co llege instead of enlisting right out of high school and found out they had an army rote program up here so I guess that's why I ended up in the army instead of the marines. MYSELF : Hooah sir. Why did you pick the specific branch and service sir? COLONEL COX : Well like I said when I came up to Appalachian all they had was an army rote so that kind of narrowed my choices down to army. For the branch, just watched a lot of movies and heard war stories as a kid I guess and just infantry was what I always wanted to do and I was fortunate enough to get my first choice of branch. MYSELF: Hooah sir. What do you recall from your first days in the service being like? COLONEL COX : Well I guess my first real exposure to the service was leaders training course at Fort Knox because I came into the rote program late. I took one class as a sophomore and to become a junior I had to go to LTC and back then it was more like basic training and all the drill sergeants and everything yelling and screaming at you when you showed up. It was pretty intimidating but I knew millions of people before me had done it and figured if they could do it so could I so yea that was pretty much it. MYSELF : Did you go to LDAC like the rest of us sir? COLONEL COX: Yes after LTC I came back and went to my junior year here at Appalachian and then I went to what we use to call it advanced camp and it was down at Fort Bragg, North Carolina but it was very similar to what you guys do now MYSELF: And what was that like for you sir? COLONEL COX : Well, it was kind of interesting being in all the different leadership positions. Trying to be a good follower when you're not in a leadership position. Just it really helped being in a strong program here because I had the confidence to get up in front of my other peers and be in charge and do the th ings I needed to do. It was a pretty challeng ing experience, not challenging physically perse but just being in a leadership position and trying to make sure you did the right thing . �MYSELF: Do you have any moments or images that stand out from advanced camp sir? COLONEL COX : I guess one of the most difficult th ings that happened to me at advanced camp was the first week we were doing rifle marksmanship and I jumped down into the fighting position and rolled my ankle on a sand bag and it ballooned up and they were going to send me home and I told them no I wasn 't going to go home so I just had to do the road march and everything else with my ankle black and blue about the size of a cantaloupe but after a couple days it got back to normal. that's one of my biggest challenges was the fear of having to go home. MYSELF: Hooah sir. Did you find that that kind of prepared you for infantry life? The pushing through pain, pushing through or just in general did you find that that helped you sir? COLONEL COX: It did help me. There is a point where you have to push through discomfort and physical pain to some extent but its very important to know the difference between an injury and just being in discomfort I guess I should say. They said I couldn 't injure that ankle anymore by walking on It so it was already as sprained as it was going to be so I just kept going and that was about it on that topic. MYSELF: Yes sir. What was your BOLC like? Wh ich is Basic Officer Leadership Course. COLONEL COX : Yes and then it was just called Infantry Officer Basic Course or depending on wh ich branch you chose. You showed up you were treated like an officer which was a new experience. You were as far as the NCOs and everyone was saluting you and calling you sir, but it was a little bit similar to camp i guess you could say. One day you were in a leadership position the next day you were a follower but they really expected you to learn there was a lot of classroom stuff and then practical application of what you learned in the classroom and it came at you pretty fast and furtous and you had to study at night if you wanted to do well. I mean some of us did some guys were were just naturals i guess but most of us had to study at night and prepare ourself for the next days events so it was just i guess. The biggest thing for me was being called sir by all these NCOs who had been in the army five, six, seven years and they were calling you sir and I was getting a pay check wh ich is a pretty big deal I guess that was the biggest adjustment for me. MYSELF: What was it like transitioning from being a student and being involved in the army to being full time yo ur main focus was in the army sir? COLONEL COX : Well for me it was pretty easy I guess. You know went to school up here had a great time goofed off too much in some ways. But once it was time to go to work start getting the pay check I was able to fl ip that switch in my head and realize that I had signed up for something that was bigger than me and it was a tot of responsibility and I wanted to learn and become as proficient and competent as I could because I was going to be charge of 30 muldoons, or 30 plus in my first platoon that I was going to get and i knew that I was the guy that they were all going to be looking to for the answers and know what I was suppose to be doing and i didn't want to embarrass myself or ASU ROTC or the Army. I wanted to be competent and confident and do the right th ing for those troopers that I was going to be in charge of so I was able to flip that switch pretty easi ly. �MYSELF: Could you go into detail about what your first days actually getting to your first unit were like sir? The adrenalin rush; nerve of being an officer in front of leading men like that sir. COLONEL COX : Well to be perfectly honest I had really had some good instructors in my ROTC class and they went over some of their first experiences and especially first time they would lead their troops in a field training exercise or PT. And they told me stories about how CPT Nickson was and instructor while I was here. He's now retired and work ing a contracting job for the marine corps, but how he studied at night and go out into the training area on the weekends to try to learn the area so he was very confident and competent and could find his way around and wouldn 't get lost and did all those things on his own, on his own time. And I really took his advice and some other people gave me similar advice and I really took it to heart so anytime I knew I was going to be up in front of troops or be in charge of something particular that I could prepare myself for I would use the weekend or the afternoon to really I guess study, rehearse and get in front of the mirror at home by myself and try to prepare myself the best I could so that when I got up in front of the troops I wouldn 't be stumbling on my words or making mistakes. I mean everyone makes mistake occasionally but I always tried to prepare myself as in advance as much as possible so I could be, not make a lot of mistakes when I was out in front of the soldiers because they expect you to be competent and they expect you to have the answers and if you don't you lose their confidence so I'm not saying I never made mistakes, but I really prepared myself in my own time as much as I could. And I found by preparing myself it made me more confident so I was less nervous because I knew what i had to do because I had rehearsed it so much on my own time. And that really gave me confidence to stand up in front of them and give orders and directions and to be in charge and because I was confident it gave my troops, it made them believe in me and trust me so its kind of a reciprocal type relationship. So I hope I've answered that question. MYSELF : Yes sir. Moving on to some of possible combat you 've seen, what conflict or wars have you been involved in or seen action in sir? COLONEL COX : Okay the only conflict I have been directly involved in was I was deployed to Iraq first. First time in 2003 when the first invasion kicked off and then I went back in 2009 as a, actually 2010, as a transition team leader. So those were my two combat tours. MYSELF: What were yo ur specific assignments or jobs upon you r arrive for those deployments sir? COLONEL COX : Well for my first tour in Iraq I was assigned to the 101st and I was coming out of Korea and I got there just as the division was deploying so I really didn't get to meet anybody in the unit. I stayed back for about two weeks cause I got there as they were already flying out into theater and I had to go fort benning georgia to a rep lacement depot for lack of a better word . They gave us about a two week train up on the things they thought we needed to know . There was a list of tasks we be trained in or proficient in before we deployed. So when I got to theater in Kuwait about two weeks behind the rest of the division but the invasion had not kicked off yet so they were still behind the berms in Kuwait. And I was told I was going to be assigned as a battle major on the division headquarters, the TOC floor. So I was going to be one of the guys with �the twelve hour shift running the TOC there for the 101st. So that was my first assignment. MYSELF : And for your second assignment sir? COLONEL COX: I hadn't deployed in a while so I was due so I was told I would be a transition team leader or I could volunteer for several assignments but I volunteered for that one. So I was with an advise and assist brigade, actually the first advise and assist brigade that deployed ever to Iraq with 1st brigade of the 82nd and that was in 2010. Got back just. joined the unit when they were on block leave. They had just finished their mission rehearsal exercise at JRTC and we had about a month and half to get trained and get ready and deploy over there. As a transition team leader I was in charge of the border transition team so we advised a division. region headquarters of the 2nd region headquarters of the Iraqi border forces and actually 3 points of, actually 4 points of entry. I had 5 transitions teams that worked for me at the brigade level and the points of entry that were actually marine teams so it was actually pretty challenging I was on the road a lot. MYSELF : You said you got to choose between several possibilities for your 2010 deployment, what made you specifically pick that one sir? COLONEL COX: I don't know if it was a possibility for a deployment but it was just a list of jobs that were available for lieutenant colonels. And there was one advise and assist brigade that was with the big red one out at fort Riley kansas and one with the 82nd and the 82nd was just the unit I'd rather have served in so I volunteered to be a transition team leader with the 82nd. There were a couple other opportunities with rapid equipping force and some other things but I wanted to , I guess for lack of a better word get to a unit that may see some action have more direct involvement, there in theater so thats why volunteered to be a transition team leader and I just preferred the 82nd over the big red one so I choose that particular assignment. MYSELF: And just so we understand what exactly does a transition? COLONEL CO X: A transition team? There's a lot of different make ups of them the team I was on had 5 field grade officers myself and 4 majors and then we had a security element from an infantry unit that was attached to us to provide security and mobility and get us around the battlefield. And our job is to advise. train and sometimes go out with and actually do operations with the unit we 're assigned to. There were transition teams that dealt with the army, there were transition teams that dealt with the police and there were transition teams that dealt with the border forces and that happened the one I was selected for based on my background and experiences they decided that that job would be more possible combat and more deploying out to the field . A lot more convoys a lot more tactical movements and they wanted an infantry or a combat arms officer in charge of that team so thats how I was selected to be in charge of the border team. MYSELF : What do you remember upon your arriving on those deployments? What was it like? Your. what you thought it was going to be like verses what reality turned out to be like sir? COLONEL COX : I guess I didn't have any, too many preconceived notions. I had seen all the movies and talked to a lot of veterans. When I came in the army there were still a few vietnam veterans around and they shared some of their experiences especially at ranger school and some of the infantry units I was in and my first couple of tours with those veterans. there weren't many of those veterans around but there were a couple �and they shared their experiences. Obviously Iraq turned out to be very different from vietnam in many ways but it was very interesting. I joined the unit the first deployment with the 101 st and came in with the replacement batch they moved in to theater. We didn't know exactly what to expect they moved us into these basically called them circus tents but they were just big tents they housed people in with wooden floors and coots down there and you just were assigned a coot and a tent and and we stayed there for about a week and a half before we actually crossed the berm . I remember the night before, or the evening before we crossed the berm they had a big meal for us which I thought was pretty interesting actually. They had steak and lobster. Kind of like they didn't know what to expect so they wanted to make sure we had a good meal that could possibly be our last. So everyone had the steak and lobster meal and even though we were in the 101 st we didn't fly in or air assault in. We loaded on the trucks and moved behind the 3rd infantry division who was spearheading the efforts up to, moving up through, eventually up to Bagdad but you know moving north from kuwait up through Iraq . And we followed behind them , probably several hours behind them in trucks and basically we were just trying to keep up at that point because they didn't meet a whole lot of resistance and there was large masses of, large chu nks of unoccupied land just desert out there that we would just drive through but you know but we were in a tactical convoys and everybody is expecting to get hit so everybody is facing their weapons out and doing all the convoy battle drills but there wasn 't a lot of resistance. So we went all the way up to bagdad and occupied a big weapons factory which was pretty interesting. That we had been there and could see where the apache helicopters had came in and had whipped out all the tanks and BMPs and infantry vehicles that were in town. It was amazing to me that they were able to take out these tanks between buildings just very narrow alleys with the hellfire missiles and not even damage the buildings around them . You 'd just see a little hole in the tank where the missile had burned through the armor and had just burned up the inside of the tank. Without looking closely you would think it was still serviceable until you got close enough to see the little holes and where the hellfire missiles had went in. But then we went up after about two weeks in Bagdad we went north towards Mosul and one of the infantry battalions actually had a pretty, brigade actually, employed a battalion and a half into a pretty decent engagement in Najaf. And I wasn 't directly involved in that being involved with battalion headquarters but that, was pretty interesting to listen to over the rad io. MYSELF: So when you, could you talk about compari ng those two deployments? What w similar? What you found the differences between the two of them were? COLONEL COX : The first deployment, basically after the initial invasion the Iraqi army pretty much disintegrated and went away. There were pockets of resistance a lot of them were militias and re ligious fanatics and different things. You know we would catch some mortars and some rockets occasionally on our FOBs but most of the resistance , there wasn 't really an Iraqi force we just started standing them up. The new Iraqi police force and the new army and all those types of things. When I went back several years later they had made a lot of progress and had stood up the actual Iraqi police force and the Iraqi army and there was an Iraqi coast guard and air force and those types of things and we were working with them instead of us. That was the biggest difference to me working hand in hand side by side with the Iraqi security forces to help them get better and help them do their jobs and try to push them out front so that we weren 't �necessarily taking a leading role we were taking a supporting role and I guess the Iraqi security forces were basically non existent in my first deployment and during the second deployment it was all about getting them prepared to take over when we left. MYSELF: Did you find that hard to reel in that pack of wolves? You know, you're leading a group of men who are alpha personalities and to have them . COLONEL COX: Oh it was extremely challenging . Some of the transition teams saw very, a lot of the infantry soldiers were just securing bases and weren't really going out and doing many missions and that lead to a lot of issues. Not issues but just these men were trained for combat, expected to go to combat and they were on edge and a lot of them were confined to camps and you always had to be alert and visual and we still took rockets and mortars and those types of things but they didn't have a direct combat role in many cases. The unit I was with the border forces we on the road you know about two to five days a week every week almost and we were doing a lot of convoys and we had to stay vigilant and we actually were never hit with any IEDs or any direct fire but a lot of other convoys in adjacent areas and before and after us on the roads were hit so we couldn't let our guard down. And we actually stayed on the Iraqi compound and they had a little safe house basically that they gave to the american forces that the transition team before me had used and we had hesko barriers around it, big sand filled wire cages for lack of a better word if you don't know what hesko, is with constantine wire and we had to maintain a guard. We felt pretty secure inside the Iraqi compound. We were pretty confident that most of these guys were on the up and up and didn't wish us any harm but we could never truly let our guard completely down. That was my biggest fear was my guys were going to get complacent so I had to keep hammering home security and discipline and staying ready for anything at any time cause even though we didn't have any incidents there we re, we had a couple times where we thought we were going to have an incident and turned out not to I don't know if it was because we were alert and they didn't see a weakness they could come after or just because they didn't intend to do us any harm we don't know but we didn 't want to give anybody the opportunity to do us any harm . MYSELF: What were some methods you employed to keep your men from becoming stagnant or co mplacent? COLONEL COX : Myself and the sergeant first class who were in charge I made them stand watches at night and augment some of the patrols just so, and I preached to them hey don't let your guard down. We had SOPs that we were very rigorous myself and sergeant first class not to let our standards go lax. We didn't care how calm things seemed , we would enforce the standard you know hey before we get off the tracks you gotta have somebody on security before we get off the MRAPs and before we occupy the house and start moving our stuff in we were going to stay for a couple nights that we occupy the strong points and the gates to make sure it was secure. Everybody carried loaded weapons, locked and loaded the entire time so you know even on the Iraqi compound just so you know just to maintain that combat vigilance and alertness and just continue to hammering home making everybody when they went out one of my officers wanted to go do a KLE with their particular counterpart made them take security with them at least one soldier who was always to remain vigilant and to keep his weapon with him , we all kept our weapons with us but while the officer or senior NCO was doing their key leader engagement or having an interaction with their counterpart �you know there was always one person designated to just be security to just keep watching and looking and keep their eyes open and not give anybody the opportunity to catch us with our guard down. MYSELF: So did you see any direct combat or did your unit take any casualties on either of your deployments? COLONEL COX: The division when I was with the 101st on my first deployment took eighty, I think eighty eight casualties. Eighty eight killed actually, casualties was quiet a few more. I didn't ever have to pull the trigger. There were a lot of times where we took rockets or mortars you know on our positions but not sustain, usually just a few rounds here or there. RPGs fired at some of our sleeping quarters from vehicles going down the road but me personally I never pulled the trigger. The closest I came to combat in that particular situation working in a division headquarters was rockets and mortars and RPGs fired indiscriminately into our perimeter and standing in the chow line one day we waiting to eat at the defact or mess hall and we started taking mortar rounds and one guy, everybody else laid on the ground and one guy just took off running and just, fate I don't know what it was but he ran right into a mortar it landed right on top of him and exploded and he was about 50 yards from us when he took off running . We don't know what possessed him to take off running he should have just hit the ground but he was pretty much killed instantly on the spot and so thats probably the closest I came to combat in the first deployment. Second deployment once again mostly indirect fire . Couple times some rockets impacted in some fields close to where I was walking and a couple of times I was, during convoys, we were always vigilant for IEDs we spotted a couple but none ever exploded on us. We marked them and sealed them off and waited until the EOD got there and provided security for them until we moved on. And then I guess probably the only time closest i came to combat was or even being felt threatened was in the Iraqi compound we were staying in. They there during the heat of the summer they basically worked early in the morning then would sleep or rest or do whatever for four or five hours and start working again that evening and work until late in the night. They had a really strange reverse cycle but I guess it was due to the climatic conditions and the extreme 120, 130 degree temperatures and lack of air conditioning that there was a cultural thing that they got up early, worked in the morning , basically slept rested did their own thing in the afternoon during the middle of the day and then later that afternoon in the early evening they came back to work and worked until midnight or one or two in the morning sometimes. But my interpreter and I, I was bored I wasn't use to that routine during the day I wanted something to do so my interpreter and I were walking around the compound and we were invited into one of the houses by some off duty soldiers. They were enlisted soldiers and they invited me in for tea and my interpreter said sir you don't have to go but it would really honor them if you went in for tea, that would be a big deal to them they don't get to interact with officers very often, its a little more, its a lot more segregated in their army than it is in ours. So my interpreter and I went in and picked a good seat with our back against the wall just didn't want to let our guard down but we felt pretty comfortable, but they said ah the suns in your eyes so they closed the door and then a couple more came out of the back rooms and came into this room and kind of surrounded us and sitting around us and I just started getting a bad feeling . And I didn't know if these guys were just being friendly or i could see myself on Aljezzera in some video getting my head chopped or �something , so I started undoing the release on my holster for my pistol trying to figure out which door was the best exit and trying to figure out which one I was going to have to shot first if it came to a gun battle and adjust my position where I could easily reach for my pistol my side arm and start shooting kind of like the old clint Eastwood movie, which one are you going to shot first I was trying to figure out which one is the biggest threat and how I was going to get myself and my interpreter out of there but fortunately nothing happened . I don't know if it was because of we didn't let our guard down or because they didn't intend to do anything to start with but yea thats the closest to direct combat that I came MYSELF: Did you find it frustrating to not be able directly engage the enemy and did you find that affected the morale of your men never to have an actual enemy to engage? COLONEL COX: Well some of the soldiers especially had been on the previous deployments where they had seen direct combat, they were more on guard but most of them weren 't too anxious to see it again. It didn't bother them that we didn't have direct combat perse. You know there were a couple that it did. I found that the new guys who had never deployed again they were the ones who were most disappointed in not getting to see any action. And they were very frustrated but that was a lack of experience that they hadn't been there and done that and they felt like it was part of their I guess their manly duties and they had trained for it and the train up they had been with guys who had deployed before when it was really bad over there in 2005, 6 and 7 and there was so much going on and so much combat and they had been their training had revolved around kicking in doors and directly engaging the enemy and direct fire so I found the new guys were the ones who hadn't seen any combat were the ones who were most disappointed by not having done it and we just tried to temper their expectations and tell them look you 'll get another deployment. Go to afghanistan next time around and maybe you 'll get an opportunity to see direct action its not a bad thing you're not seeing direct action so try not to be too disappointed. MYSELF: Yes sir. Shifting fields for a little bit, what are some of the places that the army has taken you or you've traveled in your service time? COLONEL COX: I've been pretty fortunate I've been a lot of different places my first duty station was Hawaii which was over there so I really enjoyed that it was a lot of good training had some commanders and good leaders that I worked for it was a good unit with the 25th infantry division and 114 infantry. The battalion commander was Lieutenant Colonel Kazlan who is now Major General Kalzan who just recently came out of command of the 25th infantry division and the S-3 was Major Jim Hug ans who is now Major General Hugans who is in charge of the division commander for the 82nd so that chain of command over there was pretty stacked had some good quality officers and NCOs and it was a good experience. Boy from a very mediocre middle class up bringing in North Carolina going to Hawaii was pretty exciting. Then I went back to fort Benning georgia for my advanced course now its called, I'm not even sure what its called now but it used to be called the advanced course now its called the career course and then I went to fort Lewis Washington which is up near Seattle which is in the north west and got the opportunity to go to Alaska and different th ings and from there bel ieve it or not I went back to an ROTC assignment at Appalachian State University and then I went to fort Bragg and then spent some time there at fort Bragg and then after Bragg went to �Korea which everybody to ld me don't go its a horrible place terrible time but I actually enjoyed it I had a good time over there and I found it best to try to immerse yourself in the culture and the people and the country or the location your at instead of always going to eat in Korea and most of the soldiers when they were off duty would go to the burger king or the KFC instead of going to the local korean restaurant .Its not necessarily a bad thing but I found it better to try to immerse yourself in the culture of basically the country that you're in. So that you have a better time. after korea i went to fort Campbell which I really enjoyed it was still in the south but it was near Nashville a very nice place then I got fortunate enough to be basically an opportunity to do an exchange officer job in Australia so I spent a little over 2 years in Australia working the 1st infantry division in Australia actually the only active duty division and then from there I went basically to fort Bragg for a coupl e of months and then deployed to Iraq for the second time and after the second rotation I came back to Bragg for a couple months and after that I came up here to appalachian so I've been to some pretty choice assignments and some good locations I've really enjoyed it. MYSELF: As an officer men look up to you. What kind of pressures and stress do you find in your everyday interactions? COLONEL COX : Basically they expect you to be a little different than them as in upholding the standard . Strong ethically and morally and the leaders that make mistakes that you know do stupid things especially that get them in trouble that their soldiers see or let the standards down once you basically let the standards down or the soldiers see you with a DUI or getting drunk and stupid or those types of things you lose their trust and faith because they see you basically i hate to say this on a pedestal. If they see you cheating or lying or stealing or doing something its very hard to come down on them you know for doing the same thing so you're being observed 24f7 even off duty. So the things you do you just have to conscious of your environment and who's around but you can't let your guard down they expect you to be professional and mature and in charge basically all the time. I mean yes you can make mistakes, everybody does but you have to be conscious of being observed at all times and always try to be on your best, on your A game. MYSELF: What do you, what are some things to you do to help relieve stress or try and get away from the normal routine? COLONEL COX : Well everybody's got different things, I like physical activities running biking those types of things, competitive events are good and like spending time with peers and friends that are kind of low key that way you can talk without your subordinates necessarily hearing your complain or grip so you just gotta be careful who's around when you do that but thats kinda been my technique for re lieving stress either physical activity or competition or just hanging around with peers people the same rank as you or higher rank than you and that way you can talk honestly and freely without wo rrying about looking bad or complaining in front of your troops. MYSELF : What was that adjustment like to learn the social code of how to conduct yourself in front of your subordinates and what you could or could not do? COLONEL COX : Well i guess it kind of starts here in your ROTC experience, you know I wouldn't want the MS4s to be gripping or complaining in front of the 1s. 2s, or 3s or to be laughing and joking when they're suppose to be serious and competent I think it began here in my ROTC career as you know you have to be conscious of who's around �when you're, you want to say something that may not be considered appropriate as far as maybe complaining about the way things were done or those types of things so I think it began here it just continues through out your time as an officer. MYSELF: How has the time in the service affected your relationships with friends and family ? COLONEL COX: Well I had a lot of great friends in college I'm still friends with some of them and high school but I've lost contact with many of them because I travel so much and over seas and all over the world so you lose touch with a lot of friends except fo r the ones who you're really close to you know its a struggle you have to make an effort to remain friends with the people because you do move every couple of years. I don't want to get too personal but my first wife we were married for 1O years but after I was in fort Bragg i was in some special ops where I was gone pretty much a year then I went to korea unaccompanied for a year then I came back and about 2 weeks later was in iraq for a year after 3 years of being gone my wife decided she'd had enough so I can say the military probably cost me my first marriage but I still don't have any regrets i didn't want to be divorced never planned on getting divorced but once it happens you can't change it but I guess thats the biggest adjustment and family just a lot of long distance phone calls and emails and letters and those types of things to keep the family connections going . MYSELF: Thank you for that sir. Moving on to the closing, what would be some of your best advice to anybody looking to join the military or put their service in? COLONEL COX : To me its been a great experience and it still continues today. You get to travel , you get be in charge, you get a lot of leadership experience and you're only limited by the effort you put into it in most cases, I mean Its hard work, Its a lot of separation. you're away from family and friends many times. But theres a lot of satisfaction in working with folks and seeing them get better and improve and knowing you had a role in it. and accomplishing something that you didn't necessarily know you that you could accomplish. But the biggest advice I would be if you want it you have to go for it and if you commit to it you got to commit 100% and prepare yourself you know every way you can yes theres time to relax and have fun and its been a lot of fun but you got to always if you're going to be in front of troops or bee in charge of something prepare yourself the best you can before the time comes so that you're confident and competent when you're up there in front of troops or in charge so that'd be my best advice to prepare yourself as fully as possible. MYSELF: When you look back at your time serving and leading your men what do you feel is one of, some of the most, some of the actions that have most positively affected them? COLONEL COX : For my soldiers? MYSELF: Yes sir. COLONEL COX: I guess to me it is being fair and the same, upholding standards and not making exceptions yes a lot of soldiers don 't appreciate that initially but when they see you're fair across the board with everybody and you're not making an exception coming down on them they understand and getting to know them taking a personal interest in when they have problems, there are some problems that a low ranking soldier or NCO necessarily doesn't get the attention they deserve in many cases from your personal office or in different things or the chain of command but you as an officer �can intervene and make sure their problems get fixed and really make a difference and try to encourage and motivate the younger soldiers and the young NCOs and learn from the ones who are more experienced than you and see how they do things and I guess my biggest feeling of accomplishment was actually getting to know all my soldiers as best i could taking a personal interest in their welfare and actually helping them when they had problems with pay maybe a for instance one guy had a pay problem he goes into the PAC office and they kind we don't have time for you right now go away you know they don't realize how important it is for a young soldier who's not getting his proper pay so either my NCOs and I've had a lot of good ones or myself would hand walk this soldier down to the PAC and not leave until that soldier got some service, you know not saying your PAC is always bad or wrong but just giving an example but personally intervening and taking a personal interest and taking the time to get to know your soldiers and helping them to grow and develop. MYSELF: Before entering the service and through your experience what would yo u say, how would you say your view of the military has changed? COLONEL COX : Hmm, I'm not sure that its changed a whole lot really cause my father had been in the military and a lot of my family had been in the military so I kind of knew what to expect, umm , I guess the biggest thing I didn't know was the amount of time and effort the good officers and NCOs have to put in to be good, it takes a lot of time to take personal interest in your soldiers and try to get to know them and help them and prepare yourself for when you're in charge always make sure that you're upholding the standards and values and ethics. its a lot of pressure and responsibility probably a little more than I thought but its really not that different from what I expected. MYSELF : Yes sir. You have some distinguished decorations on your uniform : Ranger tab, combat infantry badge, your wings and your parachute. Which one wou ld you say you take most pride in sir? COLONEL COX : Well actually this is not the combat infantry badge , its the expert infantry badge. MYSELF: Excuse me sir. COLONEL COX : No its no problem when I went through iraq the first time I was a division headquarters level you had to be a brigade level to get a CAB and then the second time when i deployed as a transition team leader they had determined Iraq was no longer a combat zone it was a stability or civil operation so troops over there were not qualified for the CAB but i guess all of these are very important to me. the airborne school i went to when i was a cadet rig ht after advanced camp or LDAC and that was a very challenging and fun experience I had a great time first real army school I've been to. thrown in with a bunch of NCOs and enlisted soldiers and basically was treated as an equal we all went through it together except they had to call me sir when i was a lieutenant but i was a cadet then so they didn't have to call me sir air assault was pretty tough in hawaii it was hard to get a slot once you got a slot you just didn't want to come back to your platoon having been to that school as a platoon leader and not get your tab so a little bit of pressure there not to fail but the EIB I guess the most important to me of course the ranger tab but the EIB is me going through it with all my troops as a platoon leader going through the train up out there in the field with them helping each other and getting through all the stations first time go on all stations and earning my EIB and my ranger tab. �MYSELF: Yes sir. How do you feel the experience in the military has altered or helped the way yo u approach life? COLONEL COX : Well fortunately i had a pretty good up bringing mom and dad raised me right and i had good friends and but basically i never quit always give it your best effort and do the best you can and if you do fail or things go wro ng try to learn from it and do better the next time do let it get you, don't stay down for too long life keeps rolling and in the big scheme of th ings people aren't that concerned with in general over whether you fail or succeed but just keep going never quit and if you do fail at something learn from it doing it again and do it right the next time MYSELF : Yes sir. when you get out of the service or looking back what do you hope that the people and have lead say about you? COLONEL COX : Basically that I cared about the soldiers and that I was good at what I did and that I upheld the standards as far as values and ethics and that I was a good soldier. MYSELF : Hooah sir. Is there anything you would like to add that we didn't cover in the interview? COLONEL COX : No I think that just about covers it all . probably a little bit more than you wanted but yea that's all I have. MYSELF: Wonderful, thank you so much for taking the time to see me sir. COLONEL COX : Yep no problem. . MYSELF: This has been interview with Lieutenant Colonel David Cox Professor of Military Science Appalachian State University. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b7c77ee258366b151c345bda7634f5b5.wma 16245c34b1bf7f59850053f2c27af04e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 607 KB 42.4 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Lieutenant Colonel Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Curtis; Zachary Cox; David W. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Curtis, Zachary Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Cox, David W. Interview Date 10/17/2011 Number of pages 12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:46:03 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code de75dafebd74ef31445b0e07b477f915 16245c34b1bf7f59850053f2c27af04e Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Epson Perfection V600 Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Document Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Cox_David_20111017_transcript_M 5018_Cox_David_2011_1017_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lieutenant Colonel David Cox [October 17, 2011] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Curtis, Zachary Cox, David W. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Colonel Cox served in the US Army after going to college and went to advanced camp at Fort Bragg, North Carolina in order to become a commissioned officer. He served in the infantry branch and was deployed to Iraq twice, once in 2003 and another time in 2009. Subject The topic of the resource Cox, David Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States Interviews Personal narratives, American advanced camp BOLC Colonel Cox infantry Iraq US Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a6b71683a78084e78fc5011a16611d49.pdf aac04c2dcfbbd529fec35f62d942f60b PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Richard Gilbert U.S. Army 1968-1971 Vietnam War October 15, 2012 Cody Spiker: My name is Cody Spiker, interviewing Richard Gilbert at 214 West Academy Street, his residence. [Cherryville, NC] Mr. Gilbert, when were you born? Richard Gilbert: I was born March 27th, 1948. Spiker: Where were you born at? Gilbert: I was born in Franklin NC, which was way up in the mountains up in the corner of the state. But I grew up in Lincoln County. Spiker: Lincoln County, when did you move down to Lincolnton, or Lincoln County? Gilbert: Oh, probably when I started school, around First grade. You know, about seven, six or seven, something like that. I think I actually started second grade down here, so. We moved up on highway 27 out in the country. Spiker: Okay, so your family is from the Appalachian Mountains actually? Gilbert: Yeah my mom was born in the mountains, my grandmother and grandfather yeah, basically homesteaders, so. Spiker: Okay, one of the things that they are pushing for in this interview process is people from the Appalachian Mountains, (“Oh” -Gilbert) the Appalachian area, veterans form this area so that’s excellent. So, which war did you fight in? Gilbert: I fought in Vietnam. Yeah I went, I got in the army, let’s see, it would have been ’68. I think, and then I went to Vietnam in ’69. So, I went in in December, I went to Vietnam I December of ’68 and came back in December of ‘69. Spiker: Ok, and where you a volunteer or were you a draftee? Gilbert: Well, I was a volunteer. It seemed like the thing to do at the time. I didn’t really support the war but I knew that needed a college education and I didn’t really have a way to pay for it. So, I saw that as a way of getting an education an you know, so, I enlisted for three years. Spiker: Okay, so at the time that you enlisted where were you living at? 1 �Gilbert: I was living in Lincolnton and I was attending Lincolnton high school, and I was in my last year. And there were several of us who talked about it and decided we would go see a recruiter, and so we did. We all went in together; there was about, I don’t know, eight or ten of us. Spiker: So you were about eighteen? Gilbert: … Somewhere along in there, it was just after high school. Spiker: What branch of service did you enter? Gilbert: Well, since I enlisting and I got the opportunity to pick, I had some choice and they told me what was open. Artillery, a couple things, communications, and military police and I decided that I would go military police. Sounded exciting. (Spiker chuckles and says, “MP’s lead the way.”) Spiker: So you obviously enlisted into the Army? Gilbert: Right. Spiker: Do you recall your first days of service? Like when you went to basic training? What was that like? Gilbert: Oh I remember the first day of training like it was imprinted in my brain, (Gilbert chuckles) It… we had about a week or so before we actually started basic they had us in a kind of holding pen, which was extremely boring, there was nothing to do except you know what freedom we had to go to the PX and eat. That was about it. So… when we were ready to start basic they put us on the bus and drove us over to our company and then I think you can imagine what happened after that. Hahahaha. It was in July at Fort Bragg and I think that was probably the hottest place on earth. And… it was a pretty miserable day. Spiker: I can imagine. Do you remember any of your instructors? Gilbert: Oh yes, lets see, there was… a Corporal Norris who had… he was an interesting character. He had been in the Army and… served and came back home and somehow or another he was in the reserves and didn’t attend the meetings and got re-drafted, (Chuckles) so they pulled him back in and they put him as… in our company as a trainer, as an instructor. …There was a couple of Drill Sergeants, you know I guess if I thought about it I could probably remember their names but I can’t right at the moment… it was interesting. I learned a lot about the Army. The Army travels on its stomach, the food was great. Everybody else complained, but I ate like a king… there was a fairness. They picked on everybody equally, (Chuckles) It was… interesting. I got kind of an insight into Army thinking which… and I respect that, I really do. I respect that. I didn’t like being in the Army but I did respect it. You know. Spiker: You mentioned earlier that you went to talk to a recruiter with a couple of fellows from your high school; did you end up going to basic training with those fellows. 2 �Gilbert: As a matter of fact, we all went through basic training together… all in the same company except two of use. Two went into the company next door and the rest of us were in the same. I went in with a guy named Steve Rice from High Shoals and… Steve, Steve was tough guy. He was real tough; he was a street cred guy you know. He carried a hawkbill knife and (chuckling)... you didn’t mess with Steve. But… Steve and I were good friends… he and I, we stayed together all through basic training and.. we did some crazy things together… (“Do you want to explain some of those?” -Spiker, laughing) Oh, I’m glad to tell you one. We had to do; you know we had to spend the late afternoon and evening crawling under barbwire while they were shooting over the top of us in training. And they had these bunkers placed out there that had artillery simulators in them. And I went first, I was in a wave that went in and crawled under the barbwire, and then Steve came after me. I said Steve I’ll meet you at that center bunker and we’ll smoke a cigarette before we go on. And we did, and we both got chewed out (Chuckling) seriously chewed out. But we did, we had to hold it so nobody could see the light from the cigarette, we passed it back and forth. And the artillery simulators were going off and the ground was shaken, all the bullets going over head and all that stuff. It was pretty exciting. Spiker: So after basic training you went to your MP school, where was that at? Gilbert: That was at Fort Gordon Georgia. (“Fort Gordan Georgia.”-Spiker) Yeah, and I did not know it snowed in Georgia, but it sure did. (Chuckling) Yeah, I graduated on November the 22nd because I remember it was… it got pretty cold down there… it definitely snowed. We had a bout three or four inches one day. That was fun, we got to drive jeeps in the snow, out through the hills. We did a night driving class… so we had to keep our interval and that kind of stuff. It had snowed on the ground so it was a lot brighter than the sergeant liked but…(chuckles) It was good. Spiker: So… when you finally graduated… MP school where did you go after that? Did you go directly to Vietnam or…? Gilbert: No, I got, I got leave. I came home…for… I got a, I think a thirty day leave. And then… I reported to… California… and I don’t remember all the details of this but… we had to stay in… It was right next to the Navy compound and… we could see the swabbies walking around. Course, you know how soldiers…they are… there is always enough competition to start something. So, there was always some yelling back and forth across the fence and… I thought California was kind of neat. I didn’t get to see a whole lot. There was a building there, it was building 590, which, you know, can you imagine… They must have shipped cow in it because this thing was huge. It was long and wide and all the bunks were three bunks high and close together. They were… sending a lot of people to Vietnam. Yeah… I stayed in building 590. That’s… kind of a famous landmark I guess if you look at the history books. Spiker: Lets backtrack for a minute, when you said you had leave. Did you come back home? Did you have a significant other at the time? Gilbert: I had a girlfriend (“okay, what was her name?” –Spiker) Harriette, Harriette, yes Harriette Gurley. (“Where was she from?”- Spiker) Cherryville (pronounced Chur-a-ville) 3 �(“Cherryville, okay.” –Spiker)… Cherryville and Lincolnton were big rivals so… me dating Cherryville girls was… kind of a risky thing, but I found out that your Cherryville girls were very attractive. (“Yes sir.” –Spiker) …I dated here almost a year before I went to Vietnam and then several years afterwards and then we got married. Spiker: Okay…When did you actually get boots on the ground in Vietnam? Gilbert: It would have been December of 1968. I don’t remember the exact date, but… flew into… Long Binh and then flew from Long Binh to… Quin Yon and that’s where it think, if I remember correctly or company command headquarters was there and we had two platoons at… well that was battalion and then we had… another, our main area where I was, was in Pleiku. And.. Quin Yon is right on the coast, so I got to see the ocean. Of course, Cam Ranh Bay we did... in-country training. We did a couple weeks of in-country training in Cam Ranh Bay… Pretty place too. Nice white sands azure sea and sea snakes. (Chuckles, “Did you encounter any sea snakes?” –Spiker) No, no but they always warned us if you go out into the ocean be careful. (Still Chuckling) So, but it was a beautiful place I loved it. Vietnam was a beautiful country…. So, Cam Ranh Bay and the I went to Quin Yon; and from Quin Yon I went to Pleiku and that was where I was mainly stationed. We did have two other, little satellite outpost that we… we convoyed. So, we would convoy up to the pass from each side and then we would convoy back… and we would you know, switch of the convoys…. My route was up to the what was called the Mang Yang Pass, if I remember correctly…. It was real gentle going up on one side and then It was real steep going down the other side. And there were tanks parked all over the place on the down-side of that. Spiker: Now a days there is two different MP’s, you have the Combat MP and the Garrison MP. Was that still so back in Vietnam? Gilbert: Well no. I was a 95b10, hahaha, everybody was a 95b10, it was… completely different I guess from… what’s going on today. It was… our main focus was convoy escort and… then town patrol, where, you know, you… actually patrolled in the streets of… like Pleiku or An Khe or some place like that. And… that was pretty much it. There was none of the urban warfare kinda stuff that you guys have gone through, so…. Spiker: Okay… while you were in Vietnam did you see any combat? Gilbert: Ambush or two…I got blown out of bed one morning. That was exciting. A rocket landed between where I was and the mess hall and blew a pretty good size hole in the ground. And there was a sandbag wall between me and the explosion so I was okay, but I woke up looking at the floor coming up at my face…and… I couldn’t hear anything. It was just.. ringing in my ears. I was armorer at that time. They put me in the arms room. I was taking care of the weapons, and we had florescent lights in the arms room and it blew every one of them out but one. There was only one burning and that was pretty exciting. We lost a guy that morning, he was a dog handler. Killed him and his dog as they were going on duty, it was very early in the morning so… Spiker: And do you remember his name? 4 �Gilbert: I don’t, I didn’t know him… we had two barracks of MP’s, one of infantry who helped guard our perimeter and then we had a dog handler… barracks…you knew them in passing, but you didn’t really work very close. Those guys mainly were perimeter guys and they guarded the ammunition supply dump and that sort of thing. We would mainly patrol and come back. You know, we considered them as part of our unit, I mean there was no doubt about that but…there wasn’t as much interaction as there was you know.. with the other MP’s. We had our own club. Spiker: Really? Tell me about that. Gilbert: Well it was up on the little hill and it was the road runner club because it was our mascot and… the MP’s didn’t do well at other peoples’ clubs for some reason… But the club was just a small little separate building with a bar and… served soft drinks and beer. No hard liquor. No one was eligible for that… occasionally they would hir, you know, a little Vietnamese rock band and bring them and they would you know have a couple of Go Go Girls or something like that.. It was just a nice little club. Spiker: You mentioned your unit a minute ago, I forgot to ask your unit number. Gilbert: Oh Lord, let me see. Gah, that’s just been so long. It ws the 504th MP CO, and Battalion, I think If I remember correctly, I was in Company B. I was in B, 504th MP Battalion at Pleiku. But that’s been a while, don’t quote me, hahaha. Spiker: Okay, other than being an armorer, did you have any other details…jobs? Gilbert: No, that was the only really specialized job that I did. They… our armorer had…the person who was serving as armorer had left, and…they “Okay you’re good with tools, go down there and keep the record.” Course you know everybody does things like paint numbers on jeeps and that sort of thing but that was the only one that I had actually just a separate job. It wasn’t that bad, there were only two of us and we had… it was one on and one off. We slept, we actualy had a bunk in the arms room so we could actually sleep in there two…so, there was always one of us in the arms room, so. If any thing happened we could unlock everything. I did have a station… if we were attacked, from the arms room I was to move up on to a bunker that had a .50 on it. I was to… be part of the .50 crew on, if else had…if I had expended all the ammo that was where I went. (Chuckling) Spiker: So, that never happened though? Gilbert: No. Our attacks were mostly rocket attacks, which were pretty long, big rockets and then of course mortar attacks, we would get those every once in a while. Ambushes would be anything from a few pot shots to a couple of mortar rounds coming in to some sort of improvised device… every once in a while they’d blow a bridge up and we would have to put a defile around it and you know, keep and eye on that. But, I think the road was probably the most dangerous thing. That’s where we, we got more people hurt. Mainly form accidents…rain, mud, jeeps turn over. We also had an armored vehicle, we had V100, which I think now is obsolete, 5 �we probably sold them all to some other country. I really liked it because it had a 318 Chrysler engine in it with a four barrel carburetor… (Chuckling) Spiker: Can you tell me about some of your most memorable experiences while deployed to Vietnam? Gilbert: Oh, wow, let’s see. Well I can think of a couple things… I enjoyed shooting rats at the mess hall at night that was fun, with a crossbow. We would get Vietnamese crossbows and shoot the rats and try to stick them into the wall and that was fun. I used to like to drive out to a … yard, you know the local indigenous people…there was…the French had built a damn near this little village and I used to sneak out their and lay out underneath the trees and just sleep. It was just a whole different…the kids around and all that kind of stuff. Little kids you know how they just want to play and I’de go out and skip stoned with them things like that. It was a good way to kind of relax. Spiker: So were…was everybody able to just go out? Gilbert: No, this was something that really wasn’t sanctioned. Haha, but… you would have your radio on and if there was no convoy…you’d just have to run the road by yourself, just you and your… you’d have a driver and an interpreter and then a gunner on the jeep who had a M60…But if there was nothing going on we’d kind of sneak over, it wasn’t just about a quarter of a mile and just sneak over…relax a while. Have lunch and then get back on the road. It might have been breaking the rules a little bit, but it wasn’t that serious. It was no, no real threat to anything. It was just a little way to unwind. Spiker: Do you remember much from the end of your tour? Gilbert: Well, I remember when I got short. They took me off duty, I think the last couple of weeks they take you off duty and then put you on light duty where you’re basically cleaning up barracks and taking new guys around to get their equipment and showing them where everything is and things like that. And then, they start processing you out, you have to send your whole baggage and that sort of thing back…and then I think I caught a ride we was always thumbing rides on airplanes or something. I went over to the Air force base, which was right behind us, so I went over and thumbed a ride on a transport and it was a great ride. I remember going back, it was fantastic because the back door was open a couple of feet. And it had a big crack and I could look down on the jungle and there was no one else on the plane except the pilot, co-pilot, crew chief, you know, and me. And I was in the seat, the last seat, just strapped in, looking out the door at the jungle going by. It was pretty cool; it was a good flight back. Spiker: You say… getting short…for the sake of the interview can you explain what that is? Gilbert: Short is when you’re getting ready to go home and your friends will present you with a swagger stick. And its usually a bullet with a stick stuck in it. (chuckles) And it’s carved to look like a long, little swagger stick, or it’s a shell with a stick stuck in it, then you kind of stick that under your arm and you walk around with it and everybody knows you’re short, you’re bragging you know…and then of course you would make the twoe fingers close together like 6 �that…(Demonstrates fore finger and thumb about half an inch apart)…short, and people would be envious. And of course you would have your short timers calendar up n the wall with all the X’s over everyday that you been there…. Spiker: What rank where you when you went in and when you came out? Gilbert: Oh, Lord. I remember being an E2 for about three weeks-four weeks and then they made me a E1; I guess an E1 and then they made me an E2. I think that when I got out of basic they made me a E3. And then when I got o Vietnam I became a Spec4 and I stayed that, or should I say, I stayed that until I got back to the United States, I did get busted. Not real proud of that but…I lost my rank for about a month but I made it back. I was basically a good guy, just little things happen. Spiker: Yes sir, yes sir. So, while serving did you earn any awards/medals? Gilbert: I had just regular Vietnam medals…I did have a whole bunch of unit citations and all that kind of stuff…I didn’t get any wounds or anything like that. I just tried to stay out of trouble and not get killed. I did think I was dead one night though. I ran out of the barracks, we had an attack, and I ran out in the middle of the night and they had dug a ditch across the walkway and I had forgotten about it and the next thing I know I had came too looking up at stars. I thought I had been hit, I start trying to feel for things and, I figured I would get a purple heart for that but they wouldn’t give it to me for some reason. (Spiker laughs) No, falling in a slit trench was not considered being wounded in action… Spiker: Oh, it was a slit trench?! My goodness, haha. Oh, that’s rough (Gilbert laughs) Gilbert: It was new thank goodness. Spiker: Oh good, so there wasn’t anything in it yet. Gilbert: They had just dug it. It could have been worse. Spiker: It could have been a lot worse. How did you stay in touch with your family while in … [Vietnam] Gilbert: Well, we had a new method of communication. It was the cassette tape. My wife, well my fiancé at the time, we sent cassettes to each other. I got lots of letters. I wasn’t as good at writing as she was…she…basically, I had a couple of pounds of letters by the time I got to come back. Spiker: What was the food like, over there in Vietnam? You said you liked the Army food. Gilbert: Well, I always thought it was great. The cooks were well trained, they were good. Our company had one cook who was, all he did was make pastries, so we had fresh bread and cakes, pies. He would make breakfast rolls and sweet rolls…I guess I was a chow hound because I liked to eat late. I would have breakfast at eleven o’clock at night and like if I was going on duty 7 �and skip the morning breakfast, and eat late…. I never really complained about the food. It was all I wanted and there was plenty of it, and it was good food, it wasn’t just empty calories… occasionally we had steak and baked potatoes. Something weird happened, strange happened when I was in, this was when the Army tried a little experiment. They actually, for the evening meal, they sold beer in the mess hall. Your limit was two, but they were “tall boys”, you know, tall ones. After the evening meal, if you were off duty, you could have as many as two beers in the mess hall. Now I don’t think that lasted too long, but that was an unusual, this was strange for the Army. That getting very liberal here. Spiker: So it sounded like ya’ll had plenty of supplies while you were there. Gilbert: We did run short in Vietnam, we ran short of canned drinks for a while, in the PX and all that kind of place it was just, something happened and for about a month we couldn’t get soft drinks and things like that for a while. They were short supply…you could get them. A lot of guys would take cases of drinks, buy them at the PX and then take them and trade them on the black market… that kind of thing is always going on. Spiker: Other than shooting rats, how did ya’ll keep yourselves entertained? Gilbert: Well, we had a day room, and there was tv, and that’s where I saw the moon landing cause that happened when I was…you know… there. Then we had magazines and occasionally, if you had a good friend, you could sneak into the commo bunker, the command bunker, the communications bunker and you could make a phone call or get a phone call… so, one of my friends actually called me from Vietnam, he was in another company a couple of hundred miles away, and he’d call me and we’d talk every once in a while. But that was bellow the radar (Chuckles “Yes sir.” –Spiker) ...there was always an emergency phone call if somebody at you home needed to get up with you, you could, it would have to bounce all over the place to get to you, and there was no guaranty that it would get there, but you could make a phone call to the states every once in a while. It was not something that was easily done, at least in my unit. Spiker: I meant to ask you, your buddies from high school, did any of them get assigned to your unit with you? Gilbert: No, I was the only MP. The rest of them, I think maybe about half of them ended up in the infantry and I know one of them became a medic or maybe two of them. Two of them became medics and I don’t really remember the rest of them….Did have one that went to Chemical Warfare school. Yeah, I remember him. He went there, he was a pretty smart guy. They grabbed him up, and I don’t think he went to Vietnam, he went to Washington and, or some place, kept him stateside. He was real, he was a smart guy. Spiker: After your three years was up…or did you spend all that three years in Vietnam? Gilbert: I did not. When I came back from Vietnam I was stationed in Maryland at Fort Meade. There were…Fort Meade was Basically riot control for the city of D.C. at that time, and this was when, you know, everybody was rioting about everything. There was always some kind of march going on somewhere. So, that’s where I was, and I applied to Gaston College and got an 8 �early out to go to school. I got about four months out early to go to college. That was just like, exciting like going into the Army. It was great. I was ready for college then. Spiker: Did you use your GI Bill to go to college? Gilbert: I sure did. I got almost four years of college out of three years in the Army. Spiker: Nice. Gilbert: Yeah, at that time it was a full, about a hundred and ninety dollars a month if you weren’t married, so, I think it went to a little over two hundred dollars a month if you were married, as I recall. But you know you could live cheap in Boone, it was a hundred dollars a month in rent… Spiker: So, you went to Appalachian State as well? Gilbert: I did. Spiker: Good, good. Were you married to Harriette at that time? Gilbert: We got married the year that I transferred from…it would have been my third year of college. We got married just after I graduated from Gaston. I got an AA form Gaston and then we got married and she started graduate school because she was ahead of me by four years. And, I had just started my third year at Appalachian. Spiker: Did you retain any friendships from the service while you were still in college and throughout life? Gilbert: A few but unfortunately they have gone by the wayside, most of them. I can’t, only the ones that are from Lincolnton that I went to school with I still see them occasionally. Most of them are, you know, you just lose touch. Spiker: I understand. While…studying at Appalachian State what was your major? Gilbert: I was an Art Major. Spiker: Art Major, and did you go on to fulfill your dreams in art? Gilbert: Well, I got out from Appalachian, my wife and I were married, we moved to Dallas, NC and I started teaching at William C. Friday Middle School. Spiker: What did you teach there? Gilbert: I taught art, my degree was actually art education, so, either being an artist or being a teacher was…either way. It was convenient and there was a job…I didn’t know I was going to like teaching though. She talked me into…I was just going to be an art major, she’s the one who 9 �talked me into being an art education major she says you might want to teach, you don’t know, you know. You might not do well as an artist when you first get out. So, why don’t you just do that, it’s just a few extra courses. I said, “Alright.” …and I kind of like teaching. Spiker: So, you continued to teach until? Gilbert: Well I taught for about…six years and then I went to work for a mining company, but there was financial incentive. Yeah, I got a pretty good raise to move into the mining industry…I went to work in a lab for them and got to do all kinds of wonderful and interesting things in mining and in a lab and chemistry and special projects…mainly why they hired me was because I knew a little bit about chemistry, I knew a little bit about ceramic engineering, I knew how to weld, I knew how to do some electrical work, so that art background of kind of knowing a little bit about a lot of stuff, but not being an expert the said, “Well good, we’re going to put you in special projects.” So, for about twelve years. It was a good job, excellent, I was never doing the same thing for very long they were always pulling me around and making me do all kinds of crazy… I mean learned how to survey, learned how to use a computer. Just everything. Spiker: After that job you went on to teach again? Gilbert: Well I stated teaching college off and on as an adjunct professor, not a full time professor, but just in part time. And then I’ve done that ever since. I worked as a computer programmer at Doran Mills in Shelby. I worked in the printing industry for a couple of years as a trainer, I would install systems and train people on how to use computer systems and use programs like photoshop and how to do touch up editing and I was a font expert I guess you would say. And all of those electronic font things…and then I got back into teaching again in middle school. An then…this will be my tenth year and last year. And I will retire. Spiker: Congratulations. Well, I think that’s pretty much all I have. Is there anything else that you would like to add to… Gilbert: No, I enjoyed talking to you. Spiker: I have as well. I have as well. I do appreciate it. 10 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c96ca3742e967c7d579080db60668489.mp3 33274ab687bac5808732c11c00bd0f44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 75.7 KB 16 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spiker; Cody Gilbert; Richard Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Spiker, Cody Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Gilbert, Richard Interview Date 10/15/2012 Number of pages 10 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:35:06 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 1ab5da6a51135cdce2f97284fb80a21a 33274ab687bac5808732c11c00bd0f44 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Gilbert_Richard_20121015_transcript_M 5018_Gilbert_Richard_20121015_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Gilbert [October 15, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spiker, Cody Gilbert, Richard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Richard Gilbert served in the army for three years during the Vietnam War. He was a volunteer right out of high school, and figured the military was his only way to get to college. He was stationed in Pleiku, Vietnam and worked as a military police officer. He saw very little combat but his base was ambushed a couple of times. After the 3 years were up he majored in art at Applachian State and worked as a middle school art teacher. Subject The topic of the resource Gilbert, Richard Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 United States Personal narratives, American Interviews army Fort Gordon Georgia Fort Meade GI Bill military police Pleiku Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/aac695d61df54203b2af110e2d327212.pdf eec3359ddc30fcbf9c753b0b4a212cd9 PDF Text Text Oral History Interview of Lieutenant Colonel Bryan D. Green, U.S. Army (retired) Interviewed on September 22, 2011 by Michelle Littlejohn on behalf of Dr. Browning's 2011 Fall American Military History Course at Appalachian State University. This interview took place at Bandys High School in Catawba County, NC where Lt. Col. Green is the current Senior Army Instructor for the JROTC program. �Transcript of Oral History Interview with Lt. Col. Bryan D. Green, U.S. Army, retired Date: 22 September 2011 Location: Bandys High School, Catawba NC Project for HIS 3823, 2011 Fall . Michelle Littlejohn: This is Michelle Littlejohn of Appalachian State University. Today is September the 22nd. I am at Bandys High School in Catawba interviewing Lieutenant Colonel Bryan Green. Okay, Lt. Col., to start with, what's your birth date? Lt. Col. Bryan D. Green: I was born the 25th of September 1961 in Davie County near a town called Mocksville. Littlejohn: Okay, is that in North Carolina? Green: Yes ma'am, North Carolina. Littlejohn: Okay. Now when you decided to go into the military, you said you did the ROTC program at Appalachian? Green: Yes. Littlejohn: What made you want to do the program? Green: Well, I had graduated from high school and I wanted to, I wanted to go into the military and my parents really didn't, weren't to excited about the idea of military service. My dad had served in the Navy, my grandfather in the Army and relatives had served in the Army prior to that. And it was the lure of doing something different and growing up in an area where you had furniture factories and textile mills there just wasn't a lot of opportunities in Davie County. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: So I went to Rowan Community College for two years and worked for a year as an Assistant Store Manager with B.C. Moores and I really didn't, that really wasn't my thing so they had a program at Appalachian State where you could transfer your two year Associate Degree into a four year program. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: And I don't know if it was a fairly new program or it's a pilot program but I looked into that and then called the recruiter, recruiting officer, the RO at Appalachian State, Captain Rogers and he got me hooked up to go to basic training and did whatever he needed to do to get me signed up for the fall semester so that, that summer I went to Fort Knox to basic and then started Appalachian in the fall as a cadet in Military Science �III student. And the program was a Bachelor of Technology, Bach - Bachelor of Technology and Business Education. I think the program was set up to train you to be a community college instructor. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: Or you could teach public school but you'd have to get your teaching certification. So I think I belonged to the department of Education there at Appalachian as well as the ROTC department. And so I took that adventure and then did my two years at Appalachian and then, and then by the time I was ready to graduate in '84 there still wasn't any real job opportunities out there so I decided I was going to go ahead and give the Army a try and went on active duty. Littlejohn: Okay. How did you enjoy the program at Appalachian? Green: It was, it was great cause you already had a ready set made of friends. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: And you already had friends and people that were there. You already had a team that you were part of, so it made the college experience a lot more pleasurable because you know, you going in you don't know any body and Col. Michael Scott was the professor of Military Science at the time and he was a Special Forces guy so we did a lot of fun things in ROTC at Appalachian. And while I was there I was in the Scabbard Blade and we did the football games, had to color guard and ushers for the game stuff. So got to see a lot of the home games there at Appalachian. Then they had started something called the Gold Bar Recruiting Program. So I got selected my last semester of my senior year to enter the Gold Bar Recruiting Program which was a good deal because they paid you as a Second Lieutenant and you recruited for Appalachian State so that also became my internship for my degree. So that worked out well. And so I was getting paid, you know, in lieu of not getting paid cause I was making- you got paid as a cadet by the Army and then I, my first semester I worked making doughnuts and getting up at three in the morning and going to the cafeteria and making doughnuts for a semester and then I, once I lived in Bowie and then you know walking all over the place and walking down to the cafeteria I said, you know I got an RA job so I was an RA the other semesters I was at Appalachian. So it was a good experience. I love Boone and that environment so I got to come on active duty early and work for Appalachian State till about November. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: And then went to my officer basic course at Fort Sam Houston, Texas so I, I can say I was probably one of the first Gold Bar Recruiters for App. Littlejohn: Okay. �Green: So I got to come on early and got to go to all the feeder colleges for Appalachian State. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: They had a old four wheel drive Dodge Ram and that was my vehicle so that was pretty fun driving down the mountain and up the mountain to the various colleges that feed Appalachian State. Littlejohn: So how was - you went through. boot camp? Green: Went through basic at Fort Knox. Littlejohn: Basic ... How was that? Green: It was an eye opening experience cause they were students, college students, from all over the country there at Fort Knox. To enter ROTC you either have to go through Military Science I & II as a freshman and sophomore or you would have to complete a basic training equivalent. Given the time frame I didn't have time to go through the Army standard basic combat training so cadet command ran what they call a Basic Camp which is equivalent to, they give you your credit for basic training at Fort Knox and the Drill Sergeants had just finished with a cycle of recruits for the Army and now they had cadets. They had all college students and I don't think they differentiated very much between cadets and college students but it was a good experience. It was filmed on same site that the movie Stripes was filmed on cause they still have the World War II wood ... Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: They had just filmed Stripes not too long ago so. Littlejohn: Oh wow. (laughs) Green: It, it was definitely a, it was a leadership experience cause they do the same thing they did twenty years ago, you know, you rotate into leadership positions, you have to lead your squad or platoon or company. Littlejohn: How did that differ with the officer training after you left the ROTC program at Appalachian? Green: Well, once you, once you earn your commission you are now a Second Lieutenant and they expect you to act and conduct yourself as a Lieutenant. We weren't treated like trainees but any means but they expected a high standard of behavior from you. �Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Okay. Let's see. Was there any memorable experiences frnm the training program that you took away or - ? Green: Met a lot of folks from all over the country. Especially the ones from Boston you know they eat with a 'folk and a spoon.' We saw quite a bit of attrition cause a lot of folks thought that this, this was gonna be an easy ... Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: Six weeks at Fort Knox and it was actually physically challenging. You were under mental stress. Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Green: So the first week there was quite a few that didn't make it. Littlejohn: Okay. And once you finished officer training, where did you go from there? Green: After I finished my officer basic course at Fort Sam Houston I was assigned to the 197111 Infantry Brigade at Fort Benning, Georgia to 2nd Battalion 69 111 Armor as their medical platoon leader. I got there in January and the brigade was deploying to Reforger in Germany so I was there for three days and just long enough to draw equipment and get on a plane and go to Reforger which is Return of Forces to Europe. This was during the Cold War so every, every year that as a show of force to the Soviets, the U.S. would deploy units from the States as well as deploy units and draw equipment in country. We actually brought our equipment from Fort Benning, which the big climate difference between Fort Benning, Georgia and Europe so we had a lot of issues in January on this exercise. Actual unit arrived in Amsterdam and the main body flew into Luxembourg and that's where I came in and I literally met my platoon on the ground during Reforger. And then from Luxembourg we went to Kaiserslautem. And Kaiserslautem was a staging base and from there we did the exercise all across Germany. It was a cold field, field experience but a good leadership experience to be with a combat brigade on a major exercise like that. Littlejohn: Okay. Where did you go after that? Green: Well I spent two years in the 2nd Battalion 69th Armor and then I was moved to the main forward support battalion in the 197111 to Bravo Company and spent another almost year and a half at Fort Benning and after Fort Benning I applied for flight training and got accepted, made it through flight training up to Instruments and then decided flying helicopters wasn't for me so then they sent me to the 4111 United States Army Readiness Group to train reserve component forces ·in Indiana and Ohio. Littlejohn: Okay. Now where did, where did your career take you after that? �Green: After serving as a Readiness Group Advisor I went to the Transportation Officer Advanced Course - it was in Readiness Group that I got involved with deployment and transportation stuff and after the Transportation Officer Advance Course at Fort Eustis, Virginia was assigned to Korea to 8th United States Army to the Yon Son Army Garrison. I originally was slated to go to 2nd Infantry Division but showed up in country, I ended up being the Installation Transportation Officer for the Yon Son Army Garrison. As a young Captain in a Major's job and had a fleet of about 1200 vehicles, 700 employees both Korean Nationals, Korean Service Corps, soldiers - had about 32 soldiers - and we did the whole range from shipping people's pots and pans to running a transportation motor pool to driver's training. I guess the highlight of that tour was doing the, cause we had 72 buses there in the fleet and 24 of those buses were ambulance buses so we did a repatriation ofremains from the Korean War so that was pretty cool. And handled the cars for the general officers. It was an interesting, good tour, learned a lot about transportation. Littlejohn: Did you enjoy your time in Korea more than you did in Germany? Green: Well I would go, I would be going back to Germany several times over my career but Korea was a good tour. It was an eye opener, an eye opening experience especially to see the demilitarized zone which is like a mile Ion- mile wide, most fortified border in the world. Unless you've seen it, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to fathom that you know we are always at the close brink of war there on the demilitarized zone. Most folks never see that and hear the speakers blaring, see the North Korean soldiers and at that time there was still Russians in North Korea. Korea was a good experience. Littlejohn: Okay. Now after you left Korea, where were you assigned? Green : I was assigned to the 24th Infantry Division at Fort Stewart, Georgia. And it's a mechanized division. They had just redeployed from Desert Shield I Desert Storm. My advance course had gotten cut early, cut - cut - reduced by I think two months and they, there was several of us on the slate to go to the Middle East but the war ended early so they had to reassign us so I got reassigned to go to Korea and then by the time I got back from Korea most of the divisions in the States had redeployed back so I arrived at Fort Stewart as the 24th had redeployed from Desert Shield I Desert Storm and then of course there was a reduction of force after that operation so I saw a lot of friends get rifted out of the military. I went to the Main Support Battalion in the 24th Infantry Division, served as the Adjacent for the battalion that was 1200 soldiers ih the battalion, 7 companies and we had detachments up at Hunter Army Airfield that supported the aviation brigade. And then I commanded a company in the Main Support Battalion. That was a good experience being a company commander and after that they asked me to come up on Division Staff so I came up on Division Staff as a Senior Captain, worked as the Division Transportation Officer for three months until the actual Major came in from Command and General Staff College. And during that time, you know, I saw several deployments, everything from Haiti to Suriname to the Middle East. It was good, good experience working on Division Staff and rotations to the National Training Center. �Littlejohn: Uh-huh. Do you have any particular memories from any of those deployments that you Green: I remember one field exercise. A guy I worked with was from Alabama, a big tall, lanky guy, Major Floyd Driver. And he was a quiet, quiet guy, you know, he wasn't real loud and boisterous. But we were out on a field exercise and a gator had wondered into our bivouac area and I had the night shift, he had the day shift, was getting ready to change shifts, it was early in the morning and this gator had wondered almost up to our top. And I had never seen anybody actual wrestle a gator in real but he wrestled this gator and took some parachute cord, tied his mouth shut, tied him up and then the MP's came and got the gator later that day. So it was a good thing he knew how to handle a gator. Littlejohn : It sounds like it. Green: Cause we didn ' t have any ammunition or anything to take care of that alligator. Littlejohn: So did you see combat in any of your deployments? Green: I was never sent direct - well I was sent to the war zone in Bosnia. I had finished my tour at Fort Stewart and was offered a command in Alaska as a Port Commander. So I took the tour to Alaska. And got to see most of Alaska and the West Coast. Several deployments of moving the brigade in Alaska to Thailand or down to the Joint Readiness Training Center at Fort Chaffee. Moved ammunition and after I finished my command tour in Alaska I went to Combined, the Combined Arms Support Command at Fort Lee, Virginia, which I worked in Director of Combat Developments for fielding this new Striker Brigade, that's, that's what we worked on was the Striker Brigade it's called Strike Force and it ended up being the new Striker Brigade that the Army has. And while I was there I was sent to, deployed to Bosnia - originally supposed to go to the Intermediate Staging Base, Logistics Base in Tazar - but when .I showed up they told me not to unpack my bags, that I was doing down range to the 1st Armor Division. So I spent one night at the ISB and then was down range with the 1st Armor Division and spent the rest of my tour down range with 1st Armor in Bosnia as part of Stabilization Forces Eight. Yugoslavia, former Yugoslavia was basically the whole place was mined with mines. You could see signs of war everywhere. If you just think of a place where they didn't pick up the trash for about five years and you got Bosnia. Littlejohn: Oh wow . How did it feel to be over there? Was the feeling more intense than it had been in Korea or - ? Green: Yeah because, you know, actually seeing the mass grave sites and what hatred does to people and the horrible conditions these people had endured and it made you proud to be an American. Littlejohn: At any time were you afraid or fearful for your life or were you guys in a safe zone? �Green: No, we were actually in the operational zone. We had to have two vehicle patrols when you went out in certain sectors, three vehicles in other sectors, had to take a machine gun, combat life saver, had to draw your basic load cause it was still fairly dangerous. Crime was very bad because of the civil war that had been going on in Bosnia. People were still being found dead. General Ellis who was the commanding General of the 1st Armor Division actually put in one, one day, in an average day we would have 97 combat patrols and all the logistics that goes to support all that and that's what we tracked as the DTO, Division Transportation Office. So saw a lot of stuff there in Bosnia. Littlejohn: Did any of your men ever get injured while you were deployed? Green: As I look back through the career a lot of, almost every NTC rotation they would, somebody would lose their life in training. It was just the nature of the training. The Army is very safety conscious so it happened either with the unit I was with or with the unit that was there. Anything from getting pinched between two vehicles or a rock hitting a soldier in the head being thrown up from another tract. Of course the operations at night we were still fielding night vision devices at the time so one morning at National Training Center a tract flipped over, broke a guy's neck. Everybody that was inside the Fire Support Tract was injured so medevaced, all those got medevaced out. While I was in Bosnia, the only injury was to one of the contractors. They were working on a bull dozer and the guy didn't block up the blade correctly and the blade fell on him and the son was up at Camp McGovern. Littlejohn: So while you were away, how, what happened with your family? I know you have children so ... When did you get married? Green: Got married in 1984 and first child came along in 1986 while I was at Fort Benning and then the other two came along when I was at Fort Stewart. I'd say military life is pretty hard on family especially if you get to be, your kids get old enough to be in high school. Changing high schools is a lot harder than changing elementary schools and elementary kids tend to make friends a lot easier than kids when they're in high school. But I guess, looking back, it made them a stronger person. Littlejohn: Okay. Did any of your children go into the military? Green: No. My son, his eye sight was really bad so he wouldn't have passed the physical for eye sight and my two daughters had asthma so asthma is a discriminator for entering the military. He, he had thought about it but as a graduation present I got his lasik surgery. Littlejohn: How would you have felt if they would have joined the military since your family was not for you going into the military? Green: I would of been proud of them. And still proud of them. �Littlejohn: Okay. So while you were away, what would you guys do to entertain yourselves or-? Green: Usually there was no time for entertainment. It was long days when you were deployed, anywhere from 18, 20 hour days. There was days when you deployed you don't, you don't, the events dictate your schedule so a lot of time you'd go for a couple days without sleeping. But I can't remember anything enter-, some of the troops, you know, occasionally play cards and stuff but by time you figure in their guard mounts and duties, you know, as well as doing their regular jobs, there wasn't a lot of entertainment time. Now places like in Bosnia, the USO was there and, you know, they had morale welfare recreation had facility there and occasionally they'd show movies during, at least one or two movies, a week. I think they brought the Dallas cheerleaders in but I didn't get to go see them. Littlejohn: Okay. Where did you go after you left Bosnia? Did you get to come back to the States? Green: I came back to the States to Fort Lee, Virginia and then, and after I got back from Bosnia was offered a job at the Battle Command Training Program at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. And the Battle Command Training Program trained division corps and brigade commanders so basically I was with a team of Majors and Lieutenant Colonels that trained general officers and staffs of those, of war fighting divisions. So I started out as a Combat Service Support Observer Controller and after, after a year there I was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel and became the Boss Chief, Chief of the Combat Service Support Team. So during that time I traveled and saw every division in the Army including some of the Guard, Guard Divisions and we'd do something called a War Fighter exercise where we'd train the commanders and their staff Littlejohn: Okay. So did you enjoy that experience? Green: Yeah. It was good experience, met a lot of folks. Littlejohn: Okay. And after you left that position, where did you go? Green: Left that position, I was offered a job in, at Transportation School as the Deputy Assistant Commandant and during that time I spent about a year as the Commandant and, and then Second Gulf War broke out and had deployed of the ?1h Transportation Group. General Dale at the time asked me to, to go over and take what was left of the ?1h Group which was a provisional battalion of about 1800 soldiers, 7 line companies and 3 detachments of Army buses, so I did that. Littlejohn: Where exactly did you go? Green: I was actually station - I was rear detachment at Fort Eustis. Littlejohn: Okay. �Green: But during that time we, we had everything outside of the theater of operations in Iraq so we had boats in Spain, we had boats in the Mississippi, we had boats down in the Caribbean supporting Special Forces, we had stuff down in South America supporting Special Ops in the Amazon, we had part of our company deployed out to Fort Lewis, Washington for a joint logistics over the shore operation and then, a given day out of that battalion we had about 90 soldiers that did funeral detail for that area of Virginia. Probably the hardest part, we had, I had, even though I only had 1800 soldiers, I had about 6,000 family members that were left behind so the operational side was second place to taking care of families. Littlejohn: Where did you go after that? Green: After that I went back to the Transportation School and retired. Littlejohn: Okay. So how long have you been retired? Green: Been retired since 2004. Littlejohn: And how did you end up at Bandys High School? Green: Started looking around, you know, cause I saw another reduction in force on the, on the rising and I ran into a JR OTC instructor there at Fort Eustis and I sort of came across the program when I was a Gold Bar Recruiter at Freedom High School cause that was one of the schools I went and sat up at so I said, "That sounds like a good job. I think I would enjoy doing it." So I applied to about six different schools and also applied at Freightliner and some other places, Target Distribution Centers, and cause a logistics officer' s in fairly, fairly high demand. So I got offered a job at Hickory and it was a new program so I started the program at Hickory and then after working at Hickory, I, I worked, Bandys was my host school so they were the ones that were looking after me as a new program and when Mike Colbert retired, I moved over to Bandys out in the county. Littlejohn: What made you stay in the military for all those years because you had many different positions, I'm sure you probably could of found a job fairly easily with your experience? Green : I would say it was the people. Littlejohn: The people? Do you still keep in contact with people that you were deployed with or people you led? Green: Yeah. I still, I still maintain contact. Littlejohn: Do you see them regularly? Green: No, not regularly. �Littlejohn: Okay. Green: Ever so often. Littlejohn: Every so often, huh? So what was your most memorable experience being in the military, the one thing that you took away from it? Green: Wow. That's a hard question. I'd probably say the camaraderie. You work for some good people and then, there was always a few turds in there but there's turds in every organization. Littlejohn: What was probably the biggest drawback of spending your life in the Army? Green: Being deployed away from your family. It takes its toll after a while but it was probably harder on the families than it is the servicemen. Littlejohn: Okay. Did you receive any awards or medals for your time in? Green: Yeah. I, I received a few. You need to know what they are? Littlejohn: If you'd like to tell me, that'd be great. Green: I got, I got 8 Meritorious Service Medals, 8 Army Commendation Medals, 4 Army Achievement Medals, a NATO Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, a Army Service Ribbon, Overseas Ribbon, probably missing some in there but, quite a few awards I reckon. Littlejohn: How do you feel with your current job as the JROTC instructor, how do you feel that affects your, or your impact on students? Do you feel like you instill in them the lessons that you took away from the Army so that they may want to follow that career path themselves? Green: Well, our mission is not to recruit for the Army. We're more, our mission is to motivate young people to become better citizens and we're more of a character building program, teach leadership, we teach life skills, we teach them how to be confident, teach them how to dress. So we're, we're preparing them for life after high school cause there's no other program that'll teach a high school kid how to be responsible and how to be on time and how to follow instructions and how to gain some confidence cause, you know, there's, where else can you go and lead a squad or lead a platoon or a company and we use drill and ceremony, we teach teamwork and discipline, so and we do have students that do decide to go into the military and they, they do very well. If you, if you take JROTC and complete three semesters, you can enter the military- the Army, the Navy, or Air Force- as a, in the grade of E3 and that's about $500 a month raise. Puts you ahead of your peers so within a year you'll make your Specialist, within two years you could easily become Sergeant and then if you decide to go the officer route, you already �know how to wear a uniform, you know how military rank and chain of command works . You got a few leadership skills there to get you started and, so you're ahead of your peers even in ROTC if you, you learn what you needed to learn in JR OTC. But a lot of our students, I would say only 2 to 3% go into the military and the rest go ahead and pursue college or a career path in a trade. Littlejohn: Do many of them go on to the ROTC programs at college? Green: We, we' ve had, we usually have, like see last year's class, one at UNC Charlotte, 2, 3 joined the military. It varies from year to year based on you know, their academic performance, you know, can they get accepted into a college. Littlejohn: What would be your advice to them if they went into the military? Green: Do your best. And be honest and lead by example. Littlejohn: Okay. That's very good advice. That's good advice for everyone I believe. What do you plan to do after you finish up here at Bandys? Green: Probably retire and raise chickens or something. Littlejohn: (Laughs) Do you plan on returning home or you gonna stay in this area? Green: I hadn't decided. I like Catawba County and I, there's still a little bit of the farm left in Davie County so I hadn't decided whether I'd go back to Davie County or not cause I got a lot of friends up this area. Littlejohn: Okay. Well I really appreciate you taking your time to talk to me and it was a pleasure to hear your story and I'd like to thank you for your service to our country. Green: That's all you needed? Littlejohn: Yep. Is there anything that you wanted to add? Green: Nah, I don't have anything to add. Littlejohn: Okay. Thank you. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7b3b3aaf91d83e876ec83f409b826fb9.mp3 36b04bd44e609fac2185fbbc37653317 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/2ed5e381330bafa73db5546cf788dbe7.mp3 36b04bd44e609fac2185fbbc37653317 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cdea871c58292d8756dbd0d607cafa16.mp3 36b04bd44e609fac2185fbbc37653317 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 1.11 MB 28.8 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Lieutenant Colonel (retired) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Littlejohn; Michelle Green; Bryan D. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Littlejohn, Michelle Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Green, Bryan D. Interview Date 9/22/2011 Number of pages 12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:31:18 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 317530bcdee466bc2707b7c18e334580 ecff57664d5b47ba4e5a5f0001e20136 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Epson Perfection V600 Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Document Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Green_Bryan_20110922_transcript_M 5018_Green_Bryan_20110922_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lieutenant Colonel Bryan D. Green, U.S. Army (retired) [September 22, 2011] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Littlejohn, Michelle Green, Bryan D. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Lieutenant Colonel Green grew up in a military family in the 1960s in a small town, and saw his chance to make something of himself in the military. He didn't join right after high school, but went to basic training over the summer and started at ASU the following fall as a cadet in Military Science. He served most of his time during the Cold War. He now works for Bandys High School in the Junior ROTC program. Subject The topic of the resource Green, Byran D. Veterans Cold War United States Interviews army cadet Cold War Fort Knox Lieutenant Colonel Green military science ROTC Senior Army Instructor https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d141897cf0965b59d2837ac88fc17d08.pdf 6a149dc2378c19c22f187d8dae50ef3d PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Michelle Holmquist (1st Sergeant, retired) U.S. Marine Corps 1990s-2000s None (Stationed in Persian Gulf) October 12, 2012 Brittany Thurman: Today is Friday October 12th and I’m at the Moose Lounge with Michelle Holmquist and we are… she served in the Persian Gulf and we are conducting an interview about her time served. What branch did you serve in? Michelle Holmquist: Marine Corps. Thurman: What was your rank at the time? Holmquist: A Gunnery Sergeant. Thurman: And where did you serve? Holmquist: In Kuwait and Southwest Asia. Thurman: What was the type of work that you prefer… performed while you were there? Holmquist: We were the reinforcements for the California 7th engineers’, ah from the east coast it was the 8th engineers, they moved out, we moved into their spot and just kind of leap throg… leap frogged threw the dessert. Thurman: Alrighty um. Were you drafted or did you choose to enlist? Holmquist: I chose to enlist. Thurman: And where were you living at the time that you choose to do that? Holmquist: Rochester, Minnesota. Thurman: What was your reason for joining? Holmquist: My brother inspired me… uh it’s a uh… I don’t know how to explain it, it just it comes from the heart you see it in people who have the talent and the ability to do it and I just idolized who he became after he went into the Marine Corps and I wanted to be just like him. Thurman: I understand that. Um… why did you pick the service branch that you choose? Holmquist: Because it was the service my brother served in. 1 �Thurman: Do you recall your first days in the service? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: What did it feel like? Holmquist: A little nerve-racking we flew into the smallest airport possible in South Carolina cause that’s the only place that women marines are trained… All of a sudden a drill instructor shows up and says alright everybody get on the bus go go go go hurry hurry hurry grab that bag etc. etc…. Uh they take you once you come on Parris Island they take you around the base at least for a half an hour or so you get confused on the area so if you decide you want try and leave you can’t cause you don’t know where you are. And the when the bus stops you get out, there’s another drill instructor standing there hollerin alright alright everybody on the yellow foot prints come on come on don’t grab that get your face, get your hands away from your face. Uh women are quite different then the men. Thurman: I can understand that. Um was that how your entire boot camp training experience was or was it a bunch of yelling or just ah just at the beginning and then you got into it? Holmquist: Just at the beginning, I think it was a ah… a shock treatment, because I later became a drill instructor so I understood the whole scenario um it’s a snap into you’re not a civilian anymore. We live a structured life and that’s how it goes. Thurman: Right. How did you get through it personally? Was it anything or was it just? Holmquist: I just loved it. Thurman: You just loved it? Holmquist: Yea. Thurman: Just enjoyed being there? Holmquist: Yep. Thurman: Um… You went, you were in the Persian Gulf correct? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: Okay, Ah and you told me where exactly you went, can you repeat that one more time? Holmquist: Well when we first came in we came into the port in Kuwait um all of our equipment arrived off ship, mps ships which are prepositioned ships that hold brand new 2 �equipment, brand new everything. Our vehicles that we took here from the east coast… arrived on those ships so we had to wait cause every vehicles barcoded, what unit it goes to… we set up in the port there for thirty days in a fenced in compound till we got orders to move into the dessert behind 7th engineers. Thurman: Okay um…. What was your job assignment once you got there? Holmquist: I was actually ah the guard chief, I was the person who let the vehicles in the gate or didn’t let them in and during that time, I went in December of 1999, the California people, the 7th engineers went in August of that year, there was a lot of ah disruptive between the cultures, their women don’t show anything our peop… our women had to wear their sleeves down in a hundred and some degrees, top button buttoned the men they got to wear their tshirts and everything else. Um… when the vehicles come in for instance the port-a-john cleaners, I had to stop them run a mirror under em inspect them, they would sit in the vehicle and just totally ignore me and so fine I’d tell them to back the vehicle out you can’t come in here then. And then they you know… Thurman: I understand. Did you see any combat? Holmquist: No. Thurman: Okay. Did anyone in your um your unit see combat? Holmquist: Yes, our unit was the main unit used in the breach to go through the minefields. Thurman: Okay Um… were there any casualties in your unit? Holmquist: No. Thurman: Can you tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences? Holmquist: The first one would have been ah for someone who doesn’t know anything about the dessert it is completely flat, noise bounces off nothing it just travels. We were very close to the naval hospital that was set up there, we were tasked to build over 2000 back boards cause we expected mass casualties when we went into the mine fields um… out of a fluke the hospital alarm went off no one knew what was going on no flare went up everyone was confused went to the cp (command post) uh my next equal in chain… in rank but a different position comes to me and says come on come on you’ve gotta calm these women down. We had probably 30 women in my command um… I go in there they’re down in a fox hole screaming, crying um… cause of the confusion you know. Thurman: Right right Holmquist: They were not, in my personal opinion, they were not trained right. 3 �Thurman: Were not ready for that? Holmquist: No they weren’t. Uh… another incident that sticks in my mind the gas alarm went off which means don’t leave your tent, don’t do anything, get all the way in your gear mask everything. My roommate who was equal to my rank runs out the door in panic because she wants to go to the CO’s (commanding officers) tent because she knows the CO will be safe. Um… and our chaplain who’s supposed to comfort everyone steals the truck and tries to out run the gas. Thurman: Really? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: Wow. Holmquist: Yes. I was at about ten years later at a Easter morning sunrise service and he was the guy speaking. I was just shocked that he was still in the Navy. Thurman: Wow. Yeah I would be too. Holmquist: Yeah haha. Thurman: For you to run from that then… Holmquist: Yeah he just left us all behind. Thurman: Were you awarded any medals or citations? Holmquist: No… the service medals that you earned by being in country. Thurman: Okay. How did you stay in touch with your family while you were there? Holmquist: They set up ah… a how do I say it, a huge satellite system. At&t came in and did so my personal opinion was like okay our security was gone, At&t was there whatever we were saying they were hearing so. Thurman: Yeah. So im guessing you didn’t like… Holmquist: That or letters. Thurman: Okay. What was the food like? Holmquist: Food was awesome! 4 �Thurman: Really? Holmquist: My unit has their own laundry service, their own ah… heavy equipment chow hall we had every… electrical we have… we ourse… our unit was self-sufficient. Thurman: Wow that’s nice. Holmquist: So yeah I was very comfortable. Thurman: And you had plenty of supplies? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: Okay. Did you feel and pressure or stress while you were there? Holmquist: The stress of the unknown I guess. Thurman: Okay understandable. Was there something special you did for good luck or had with you for good luck? Holmquist: Not that I remember uh… no because its… its something you feel with your Teammates, it’s a camaraderie. You know I know you have my back so luck really wasn’t a part of it. Thurman: Right. I understand that. How did people entertain themselves during downtime? Holmquist: Played cards mostly. Uh… football, basketball sand was pretty hard. hahaha Thurman: Could bounce a ball on it. Holmquist: Yeah Haha Thurman: Um… were there any entertainers? Whether there on their own encounter or within your group? Holmquist: Not that I saw. Thurman: Okay alright. What did you do while you were on leave? Holmquist: I did not get leave in-between that tour which was only six months long cause it ended so quickly. Thurman: Okay. Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual event while being over 5 �there? Other than the… the chaplain taking the truck and running away. Holmquist: hahaha. The only other humorous thing I can think of and it’s more so just a personal thing um… I always went on the mail run that was part of my job, to escort the corporal who drove the truck to go get mail and I always ate a bunch of sunflower seeds. So here I have this big wad of sunflower seeds and everybody said gunny I didn’t know you dipped, I said I don’t dip. They’re like what’s that wad in your mouth? Thurman: Sunflower seeds? Holmquist: Sunflower seeds. Thurman: I understand that. Do you have any photographs from your time over there? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: Who are the people in the photographs? Just y’all or just scenery or? Holmquist: Um… some with myself and my brother when he came to visit um… a lot of the tactical set-up so people at home could understand. Thurman: What you were talking about when you came back? Holmquist: Yep. Yep. Thurman: Did you keep a personal diary while you were there? Holmquist: No. Thurman: Okay. Do you recall the day your service ended? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: Where were you? Holmquist: On the parade deck. Thurman: What… What did you do during the days and weeks afterwards? Holmquist: Uh… that’s kinda hard to explain, most… most marines will take their earned leave that they have waiting and leave the service early, and just wait for their check to arrive. I worked because by that time I was a First Sergeant, I worked right up till the last day, I commanded my own ceremony. Um… and the next day I woke up and said now what am I 6 �gonna do? And the hardest part about that was nobody asked my opinion, nobody cared for it, you know I’m just another retiree. Thurman: Did you work or go back to school or did you just retire? Holmquist: Actually I opened my own business. Thurman: Really? Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: What kind of business is that? Holmquist: I mount military metals for the uniforms and ribbons and make military display cases. Thurman: Wow, nice. Was your… sorry um… Did you make any close friendships while in the service? Holmquist: Always. Thurman: Did you keep… do you continue to… Holmquist: Yes. All women. Thurman: Okay. And clearly you’ve joined a veteran’s organization. Holmquist: Yes. Thurman: Here at the Moose Lounge. Okay um… Holmquist: Well the Moose is not a veteran’s organization it’s a community organization. Thurman: Mhm… Right Holmquist: But yes I am a member of the VFW and the… the American Legion. Thurman: Alright cool. Um… Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or about the military in general? Holmquist: I look at it like uh… when I look back now I’ve been retired for thirteen fourteen years, when I see the teenagers today, okay we’ll use China as a prime example. They go to school seven days a week, they’re very competitive, they must serve, every child male or female must serve two years in the service, it instills discipline. 7 �Thurman: Yeah. Holmquist: We do not… you know we don’t do that. Thurman: Yeah. Holmquist: I might have got off track on that question. Thurman: No that’s fine. Is there anything you would like to add that we haven’t covered yet in this interview? Holmquist: Do your part and serve! Thurman: Thank you very much for your time and your interview. (Background after the interview) Holmquist: Now the other gentleman who is going to come out here… 8 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d39515f9e28ee8f01c80eac91e03f605.mp3 699c1b5cf00c0e010ecb467d2febcb00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 84 KB 7.9 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Marine Corps Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) 1st Seargant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thurman; Brittany Holmquist; Michelle Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Thurman, Brittany Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Holmquist, Michelle Interview Date 10/12/2012 Number of pages 8 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:13:48 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 46b08be6c8e5f049816587b246a3bc1a 699c1b5cf00c0e010ecb467d2febcb00 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Holmquist_Michelle_20121012_transcript_M 5018_Holmquist_Michelle_20121012_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michelle Holmquist, 1st Sergeant, retired [October 12, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thurman, Brittany Holmquist, Michelle Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Michelle Holmquist, inspired by her brother, enlisted in the Marine Corps in the 1990s. She said basic training was a jolt because of the huge difference from civilian life, but she loved the experience. She served in the Persian Gulf War and was stationed in Kuwait and Southeast Asia as a gunnery sergeant. Subject The topic of the resource Holmquist, Michelle Veterans Persian Gulf War, 1991 Personal narratives, American Interviews United States gunnery seargeant Kuwait Marine Corps Michelle Homlquist Persian Gulf Southeast Asia https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/ed4482511c116295a2ac66225ed4597a.pdf 741a45f0a32b28beab0186ed7cd5cdb5 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with CPL. Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr. October 8, 2012. Boone, NC Brandon Reynolds: It is Monday, October 8, 2012. I am interviewing Corporal Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr. of Charlotte, North Carolina at his home here in Boone, North Carolina for American Military History Course at Appalachian State University. The oral history will begin now. Reynolds: Now, Corporal Hoover, can you tell me about where you’re from?…When you were born? Hoover: I was born in Charlotte, North Carolina on June the 18, 1929. Reynolds: All right and can you go over your military service? Were you originally drafted or were you enlisted into the Army? Hoover: …I was drafted on…April the 26, 1951. Reynolds: How did you feel about being drafted? What was the process that you went through? Hoover: Well, I didn’t have any option. I…I had to go and…a lot of my friends had already been drafted to…prior to me being drafted and…so, …I…I knew my time was up and…I…reported to…to the draft board on the morning I was…by the time I was supposed to. Reynolds: Now, where was your first duty station? Can you go over your first unit of assignment and where you attended basic training at? Hoover: Well after I reported in to the draft board they…marched us…down the street to…to the recruiting center…at the…corner of…Church Street and…North Church Street and…West…West Seventh Street. …Spent most of the day…going through different…parts of the…the process and procedures and then about…I think around 3:30 or 4:00 that afternoon they loaded us on buses and took us to…Fort Jackson, South Carolina where we were to…do further processing. …The…we got there…on…it was a Thursday night…and…the next day they…processed us in different…different…things that needed to be done and…two or three days later they began to…get us in formation and we’d call out names and those men would fall out and…they would…tell them they were going   1   �to different…stations through…throughout the United States for their basic training. It was on a Friday a week after…I…I was drafted, on Friday they told…those of us that remained there at Fort Jackson that…we would leave on Saturday morning to go to Fort Hood, Texas for our…basic training. So, on…Saturday morning…they…we fell out with our duffel bags and I think we had duffel bag inspections for probably two or three times…while we were waiting for…for the train, troop train to get there to that we got on and…later that day we went through Atlanta, Georgia and…on Sunday morning we were…I woke up…in…in the…car that I was in and pulled the shade up and looked out and saw that I was in Meridian, Mississippi and…I said, Muuur goodness where am I going? (Reynolds laughs). But, …that…we continued to travel…all day Sunday and then…Monday morning…we found we were in Dallas, Texas and…later Waco and on down to…Killeen, Texas where Fort Hood was located…and they…took us…by bus over to…a theatre where the Commanding General came in and…talked to us and after he finished his talk, they began to…go down the…the rows and…stop at…a different row and say, “Everybody from…front to this row… file out,” and… they’d go outside and put them on a bus and take them to wherever they…they were headed. …So, when they got to…my row, I was on the first row of our group and they took us and…I wound up in the barracks and found out it was in the 91st Armored Field Artillery Battalion. And…so I took basic training with the…91st and…until…the…at lunch…lunch one day they…took…called out names and told us to fall out that the…Battery Commander the Captain wanted to talk to each one of us individually about going to…Officers Candidate School…and…I had passed the Officers…OCS Test that…at Fort Jackson and…so, when my time came…I reported in…went in to the…Captain and reported in to him and he began to talk to me about going to Officers Candidate School and…wanted to know if I was interested in it and I told him, No, I don’t believe I was, that I didn’t…want to go to Officers Candidate School, that I had been drafted for twenty-one months and I’d been in four weeks and they’d transfer…they extended our…term to twenty-four months, that I’d already lost my…some more time and that going to Officers Candidate School I’d be in another…another…year. I believe it was a year and a half or two years, and I wanted to get out to…as…as soon as I could. And…he looked at me and smiled said…, “Well…when you came into the Army there…in…in civilian life there wasn’t any demand for cannoneers and anyone was experienced as a cannoneer and I assure you when you get out and go back to civilian life there wont be any…demand for cannoneers,”…and asked me what I did in…civilian life and I told him I was a…bank teller and…that I’d like to…get in finance if I could and that…that might help me in my…my future if I…I…I had that…experience of being in the…Army Finance…Department. So, he had the First Sergeant call   2   �the…finance Officer and…the Captain talked to…the… finance Officer told him that he had a young man that was interested in getting into the finance office if…he had an opening. The finance Officer said he did have an opening and he’d like for him to send me up for an interview that afternoon. So, the Captain told me to… go change my uniform and… told me how to get to the finance office. I went up for the interview. …Had a good interview with the…finance Officer and he…wanted to know when I could come and I told him, “Well, as soon as I finish my basic training I…I hope,” and…he said, …“Well, we’ll get in touch…you need to go by the replacement center and we’ll call down and have you put on orders to…be transferred from the 91st to…when you finish basic training to the…Headquarters and Headquarters Company, so that you can…come to work in the finance office.” So, …that’s how I got in to…to…to…in the finance office and…they made…a cashier out of me, where I was paying…the…Army’s funds to the soldiers that were…going overseas, or travel pay, …or…or been redlined on payday and came in to…get… paid when they came back from furlough, or whatever reason they missed…being paid on payday. So, …then…the…the Captain in the finance office and myself, we…on…when payday came around we’d get the…pay orders from the different…sections for the…all the different units in the 1st Armored Division and we had to make up the payrolls to give to the pay Officer that…would come in on payday and…pick up…their…their bag of…money to distribute to the soldiers that were under their command. And…then they would bring it back…later that day and we’d…I’d have to…verify what they were bringing back and what they’d paid out. And…during the…time that I was cashier in…in the finance office…I...handle…millions of dollars of…of money and paid out quite a bit and I was only short one time. I was short eighteen cents. I’d given somebody two dimes for…for two pennies. I made a transposition and…so, …that was the only time that…I was short…in…in my funds. Reynolds: That’s pretty incredible in itself handling millions of dollars and only coming up eighteen cents short. Can you go over…your military history, maybe with your family? Hoover: Well, after…I...I got to Fort Hood and was assigned in…in to the finance office, …I spent…my time there and…the rumor was that…1st Armored Division was going to Germany to replace the 3rd Armored Division at some time in…around February, March, or April of 1952. …Found that out…my fiancé and I…I decided that…I’d come home on furlough in February and…be married and…I’d gone overseas…probably. But, …we were married on February the 9, 1952 and…went back to Fort Hood and found that…well, after I got back that the word was that we were not going to Germany, that we were going to make a   3   �replacement center out of…the 1st Armored Division. So, …I…we stayed at Fort Hood…the…rest…of…the time except for three months when I was sent to…Fort Benjamin Harrison in…Indianapolis, Indiana to Army Finance School there. I was there…a…a…a little over three months and then…transferred back to…went back to Fort Hood. But my wife Joan met me…in Indianapolis and we took a train back to Dallas, Texas where she stayed with her Aunt and Uncle until I could get an apartment…in Killen, Texas, which was…just outside of the Fort Hood and…reservation. And…we lived in Killeen…moved into another apartment…several months later. But, we stayed there until I was discharged on…on April the 25, 1953. Reynolds: How did you feel about finally being discharged from the Army? Hoover: Well, I…I felt…some relief that I was going back to…to…to Charlotte and…my…back to the bank that…that I’d worked at and…now having a wife and looked forward to going back where my family lived and…that it was…it was a good thing…I…I…I can’t say I enjoyed all parts of…of…of my military service, but…it was…it taught me a lot about life and a lot about how to live and how to do things. And…I think it made me…a better person. Reynolds: Will you go over some…some of your memories while you were at Fort Hood? Whether they were funny memories or kind of scary memories. Maybe being out in the field experiences with that. Hoover: Well, …we got to…Fort Hood around May the 7th I believe it was and…it…turned out that after we started our basic training it turned out to be a rainy…rainy part of the season. The…heat was usually…over a hundred…a hundred degrees and with the rain and…crawling around on the ground and…out in the field. …Different things that just…it…it was tough, but…to me it…basic training was to see…how much the…human body and mind could…could…could…could withstand. And…I remember going to…through the infiltration course…at…at night. And it rained…torrential rain about an hour before we…we got there. So, the...the course was…was muddy and full…full of water. But crawling under that barbed wire with…weapon in…in your…arms and hands and shooting tracers above your head and setting off charges that threw water and mud up (laughs)…up in the air all over you (laughs) (Reynolds laughs)…it was…that was a…that was a real experience. …Going through the…gas chamber…and take…taking off the gas mask and…having to get everybody in line. Some of them were crying and yelling and…stumbling around, but…several of us got them…had to get some of them, grab them and put them in   4   �line before the Sergeant would let us leave to get out into the fresh air. Well, we didn’t do it exactly right, so they made us do it again (Reynolds laughs). So, …that…that wasn’t very pleasant either. Reynolds: Not at all. Hoover: But it was…it was…it was a good experience. Reynolds: Are there any moments in particular that stick out in your mind while you were at Fort Hood? Any…maybe any awards or activities you did on base? Hoover: Well, being the cashier in the finance office there was one thing that…I believe it was the…United Way Drive…at…at Fort Hood. …I would receive the money that was coming…coming in from…from different areas to go to the United Way. And…I would have to count the money…make a…make a…make a record of it and so forth and turn in a report. And after it was over, …I received a letter of commendation from…General Bruce Clarke, who was the Commanding General of the 1st Armored Division, …commending me for the work that I had done…in helping the…the United Way Drive. Then one that was…sort of comical was…I played baseball…two years…both years I was there. And…we had the…post championship baseball team both years. And…the first year…it was the World Series…at Fort Hood and…we…when we won the…the game championship game, General Clarke was there to…give the…the players of the winning team…a sweater that had the initials…FH on it for Fort Hood. Then we could wear it around the base…after duty. And…then he gave us a…a medal to recognizing that we were the…post champions. Well, the…one of my teammates Joe Wade…worked in the finance office as well, so we’re in the same barracks and the next morning when we fell out for…for…for inspection, we had put our…medals…on…on…onto our shirts. And when the inspecting Officer came down the…the line and got to…to me and he…looked at…looked at me and said, …“What in the world is that?” I said that’s my medal Sir (Reynolds laughs). He said, “Medal for what?” Medal for winning the…being the post…championship baseball team. I was on the team. “Well, who gave it to you?” I said, …General Clarke did Sir. “When?” I said last night. (laughs) He looked at me and he said, “Hmmm, that is a nice looking medal, but I don’t believe it’s appropriate on your shirt. I think it may be better to take it off and leave it in the barracks (Reynolds laughing). So, …that…that was a humorous thing that…that took place and…I didn’t get…any extra duty of detail for doing that either.   5   �Reynolds: Well that’s…that’s not too bad either. I know those details can be quite…quite painful sometimes and not everyone… Hoover: Yea. Reynolds: …wants to do them. Is there anything else that sticks out in your mind during your time at Fort Hood? I know you were drafted during the Korean War. Is that correct? Hoover: Well, it wasn’t a Korean War because…war…if I remember correctly, war was never declared. And it…I think as…it’s mostly referred to as the Korean Conflict. And…I remember that…that…word came back that some of the troops…that…that…that we had known through basic training at Fort Hood…had gone on to Korea and some of them lost their lives…in…in Korea. And…that hurts to…know that someone that was close to you to at one time had…had lost their life. And…I did have a cousin from down in Florida that…was…in…in Korea…and…his…mother…he was in a…a news reel in a movie theatre. Mother saw…saw his picture and…saw her son. Reynolds: Oh wow. Hoover: …And it was at during a real cold part of winter and…he suffered some frost…frostbite…bite and other things from…from that. Now my father, he was in the…First World War. But, …he was a drafted…late…late in the war and was sent to…France and to Germany…in the Occupational Forces and he was over there about eight months I believe it was before…he was sent back to the states and was discharged and went back to his home. Reynolds: Well, upon that note…is there anything you would like to mention right now that I haven’t asked so far in the interview that you would like to state? Hoover: No…I think that…if more young men would…serve…have to go through basic training and serve some time in the service, whatever…area of service they…they would be in, then it might make…make…make…our…our people better to…to find out what…devotion to…to duty and…to be able to take orders and to…have responsibility and be…be held accountable for…for what they…what they do. That…we…our…our nation would be better off.   6   �Reynolds: Well CPL Hoover, I want to thank you for your time with this interview and once again I’m Brandon Reynolds conducting an interview with CPL Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr. …United States Army. I want to thank you for your time. Hoover: Your welcome. Reynolds: Thank you. Bye.   7   � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/74a4f1ab15debbe101d72a4d49f53345.mp3 a1cbd4df2543951463b94f5b330a4323 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 41.3 KB 25.1 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Corporal Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reynolds; Brandon Hoover; Lloyd L.; Jr. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Reynolds, Brandon Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hoover, Lloyd L., Jr. Interview Date 10/8/2012 Number of pages 7 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:21:59 Date digitized 10/15/2012 Checksum alphanumeric code 970d5c985c5d0e6cda8407d860eea525 a1cbd4df2543951463b94f5b330a4323 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Hoover_Lloyd_20121008_transcript_M 5018_Hoover_Lloyd_20121008_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Corporal Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr [October 8, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reynolds, Brandon Hoover, Lloyd L., Jr. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Corporal Lloyd Hoover was drafted in the early 1950s and served in the Army Finance Department managing millions of dollars. He served during the Korean War, what he calls the Korean Conflict, and saw his military years as a good and formative experience. Subject The topic of the resource Hoover, Lloyd L., Jr. Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews 1951 Army Finance Department Artillery Battalion Corporal Lloyd Hoover draft Fort Hood https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/040ead966d7e44a1c7d22ff29a0f17e4.pdf 3c0b346aae56c7becea1d214868faf3b PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Patrick McGarrell, Airman 2nd class Naval Reserve/Air Force 1954-1959 Cold War October 12, 2012 David Broome: Alright, my name is David Broome I am sitting in Concord, North Carolina with a Mr. Patrick McGarell. We are located in his house like I said in Concord, North Carolina on Oct 12 2012 and I’d like to thank mr mcgarell for allowing me to have his time and allowing me to ask him about his military experience. And Mr McGarrell if you could state your name for the record Patrick McGarrell: Patrick B. McGarrell Broome: Okay, thank you sir. And what branch of the military were you in? McGarrell: Well originally I put in 14 15 months in Naval Reserve and then enlisted in the Air Force. Broome: Okay, is there any particular reason why you changed from…? McGarrell: Oh yes, I joined the Naval Reserve just to make some extra money. But when I came ready to join, I did not want to go in the navy. I debated between army and Air Force…and when it came down to the last minute I went Air Force. Broome: Alright, sir. Also, can I get you to state your date of birth for the record? I should have asked you that previously McGarrell: December 31, 1936 Broome: Okay, sir so you said… for the naval reserve you joined to make some money, was there any other reason behind it initially? McGarrell: No, no. Broome: You were just in for it for the money? McGarrell: That was the easiest way to make some extra money. Broome: Okay, alright. And you said you did not want to be in the navy? McGarrell: Right. Broome: Is there any particular reason why you chose not to? Mc Garrell: I just didn’t want to. BroomeYou just didn’t want to..? 1 �McGarrell: I’d gone through a little bit of the navy, two weeks basic training. Broome: Uh hmm. McGarrell: I saw it, I just didn’t want to do it. Broome: How was the basic training of the navy compared to the basic training of the air force which you eventually chose? McGarrell: Just different… In the air force if you kept your nose clean and just did what they told you to, there was no problems. As one of our DIs, or TIs as they called them in the air force Boy scout camp was harder than the air force basic Broome: Really? Did they really say that or did you just..? McGarrell: Yeah, yeah. Broome:Alright, so you ended up joining the air force …and once you initially joined the air force, what did you..what role were you? McGarrell: In basic training Broome: You were just in basic training? McGarrell: Yeah, in Lackland, Texas. Lackland Air Force Base at San Antonio, Texas… Broome: Okay. McGarrell: Back when I went in, every male had a 8 year military obligation. It could be served in several different…so much active duty, so much reserve duty or joining the national guard and put in 6 months and then so many years. And,.. this was the easiest way to do it. Broome: Do you know what year it was…you immediately joined? McGarrell: I joined the naval reserve in jan of 1954 and enlisted in the air force in april or may of 1955. Broome: You said it was 1955, sir? McGarrell: Yeah. Broome: Okay. Alright, so you started..you joined the naval reserve because you wanted some extra money and after basic…basic training, you decided you wanted to join the air force and you said basically that the air force seemed to be easier than boy scout camp. Do I have you right there? McGarrell:Yes, yeah. Broome: Okay, well once you joined the air force, what was your..primary duty for …what was your role? McGarrell: Okay, okay 2 �Broome: Did you work radios or did you..? McGarrell: Okay, after we got out of basic training, everybody was supposed to go to some kind of school. They sent me to prelanguage school,…which was where you went through the entire English language in t30 days. You had to take a test every day and they had a 97 …98 percent washout rate on it. They had no business sending me to that school. I graduated from high school with…C average in English. But they had to have so many bodies in that school so…When I got out, washed out, went back to Lackland Air Force Base for reclassification, went through the procedure again and they sent me to Air Police School in California… They called it air police school in fact, Air Base Defense…And there was some police training in it, most of it was infantry training: learning how to provide security for…air force base you know, infantry in case we were attacked, all that good stuff. Broome: Okay…Do you remember any particulars how ..your training for Air Base Defense was different than your basic training? McGarrell: Oh, yeah…you had all kinds of weapons training …and.. in Air Force Basic training the only basic training you had was with something called a carbine. Which is a World War II type weapon, not much more than a .22, but in Air Police School, or Air Base Defense, we trained with the M1 rifle, which was the…standard weapon of.. military really at the time. And the Browning Automatic Rifle, we trained with ….45 pistol, a ....little .45 caliber machine gun called the “grease gun”, and a .30 caliber ground machine gun…Then they demonstrated mortars to us, which we would never fire, but they demonstrated that they were in.. arsenal. Broome: Okay. So they were in arsenal but you never really..they kind of demonstrate them but you never really had hands on experience with them? McGarrell: Oh, right. Broome:..How, just out of curiosity, I’m assuming it being military that they would take this training very seriously. McGarrell: Oh, yes. Broome: Did they? McGarrell: Oh, yes. Broome: So, it was definitely a step up compared to Air Force Basic training. McGarrell: Oh yes, and the reasoning for all this was during the Korean War they had a bunch of air police killed guarding an air base, where they weren’t trained to..you know…fight like that. You know they were..and the Air Force was responsible back then for its own security of their own air base. Previously, when it was part of the army, the army was the security. But when the air force became a separate military service, the air force became responsible for its own security. Broome: Do you think that was the right move by the air force? McGarrell: Oh yes, oh yes. 3 �Broome: Let me ask you this, I know you said, you said it several times now that I’ve gone through it that the basic training for the air force was rather lax.. McGarrell: No, it wasn’t lax. It wasn’t as physical as you’d have in the army, specially marine corps, something like …it was more mental training. Broome: Do you, hypothetically…Do you think that the lack of physical training would have contributed to all the Korean incidents that you noted? You don’t think that was it, you think it was just planning and things of those nature? McGarrell: No, lack of the infantry type training Broome: In regards to the mental training, what did they have you exactly do? Like, what was the training like? McGarrell: Classes, most of the time. You just would do some marching, a little PT, but a majority was sitting in classes. Broome: Alright, so it was more like…like a school type setting? McGarrell:Yeah, yeah. Broome: Okay…So after you left the prelanguage school, and.. you did they tell you to go there? Did they just send you off? McGarrell: Oh, yeah. Broome: Did you choose to go there…? McGarrell: No, I didn’t choose it they just said where you were going. That’s the way the military does it. Broome: Yeah, so you get no say so, it’s just you’re basically going to do this? McGarrell: Right, yeah. Broome: Did you express any interest in that at all or..? McGarrell: No. Broome: And this prelanguage school..what did…what was the goal of it so that people that graduated from it would do..? McGarrell:…If you made it through that you were sent to several of..there were several colleges/universities around the country where you would learn.. you can learn Chinese, Russian, all these so called..so called enemies of the time where you become an interpreter and analyst. Broome: Do you wish you had gone that route in hindsight? McGarrell: No, nah. 4 �Broome: Is there any particular reason why? McGarrell: Just had no interest, ya know. Broome: And you said most..you said there was a washout rate I believe of 97..98 percent. Do you believe there was enough public education prior to this? McGarrell: Oh, yeah. It was just a ..tough…It was just …so…tough. Broome: It was just very tough? McGarrell: We had one guy in the class, there. He had a …he was an English graduate, that’s what his degree was in .. Broome: Oh, wow. McGarrell: It was just a extremely… rigorous course. I don’t know if you’ll call it a course…or if you’ll call it an elimination round. Broome: Well, after you went through the…elimination round…were you proud about becoming part of the Air Base Defense? McGarrell: Glad or not, I do not know. It was just a school they assigned me to to go to. Broome: Do you remember any of the other options for schools around this time period? McGarrell: Back then, there was everything that was open. I don’t remember..ya know? Broome: You don’t remember it? McGarrell: I know one guy though, when we go to…school in California, one guy was very upset about it. He didn’t wanna be no policeman. He didn’t wanna shoot anybody…His father knew some politician and he was from Colorado. His father knew somebody who knew somebody who got in touch with somebody in Washington. Next thing we know he had orders to go to weather school… So, you could get out if it, you know, but I didn’t know anybody. Broome: So, you didn’t have any connections so that you could get out of it? McGarrell: Nah, no. Broome: How many people do you think tried to get out of it? McGarrell: He’s the only one that I know of. Broome: And it was simply because he simply didn’t like that assignment or because he didn’t like the whole idea of it really? McGarrell: Well, the whole idea of it really. He wanted to learn something else. Broome: Was there…so he was ready join and serve and everything but he did not want to join that particular school for air base defense, correct? 5 �McGarrell: Who him? Yeah. Broome: And you didn’t have any strings you could pull to get out of it? McGarrell: Nah. Broome: If you had a string to pull to get out of it, would you have? McGarrell: Looking back on it, I believe I would have, but that’s from hindsight. At the time, maybe I was too dumb to…use any strings. Broome: Alright, so …we’ll go back to your little story of your life here. After you get through the air base defense school, for lack of a better term, what happened then? McGarrell: I was…I went to Keflavik Air Force Base in Iceland. Broome: Okay, how long were you stationed in Iceland, sir? McGarrell: One year…and I went there by choice. Broome: Is there any particular reason you chose that base? McGarrell: Well when …I was finished up class…in Air Police School/Air Base Defense School the top ten percent in the class got their choice based on first, second, third. Anything was open in the world. We knew we were all going overseas…I was either second or third on the list ..I knew I did not want to go to the Far East, I would have been shipped out of the base I was on, that was a three year tour. I did no want to go to Europe for three years, so I saw this list…Who ever heard of anybody going to Iceland? Since it was a one year tour, I said I’d take that one…And Iceland sounds bad but it wasn’t that bad. It’s on the Artic Circle, but it really doesn’t get that cold…Coldest I saw it was in a year’s time, fifteen above zero. The warmest I saw it was five above zero, but it felt hot…and that’s because the Gulf Stream swings up around there, just enough to offset the temperature coming from the Artic Circle…ya know. We had snow, but we didn’t have that bad a snow. Course I do remember seeing icebergs floating. Back from our barrack you could see the ocean…I remember seeing the icebergs floating out there but, ya know didn’t think anything about it…And there’s plenty of people that live in Iceland, civilian population up there. Broome: You know what, let me ask you this, where were…I should have asked you this earlier. Where were you born? McGarrell: Roanoke, Virginia Broome: Roanoke, Virginia. So, ..the climate of Iceland was a little different than that of Virginia McGarrell: Oh yes.To show ya the difference, we got on a plane out.. of McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey. We just had regular airforce clothes on. Some people flying out of there to Greenland which is maybe 800 900miles west of Iceland on the same latitude, longitude, whatever that is, they could not get on a plane if they did not have Artic survival gear on..with them. Now, that’s the different in those two places not that far apart. 6 �Broome: Wow…Do you have any training prior to joining…prior to joining Iceland being in the Artic like you said? McGarrell: No, nah. Broome: I know you said in one year you were obligated to serve one year…Do you wish you had gone in hindsight the European route or the Asian route? McGarrell: Nah, no. Although, I have learned later that Bermuda was on the list. Course, that would have been a three year. We had an air base in Bermuda. I thought maybe..maybe..but ya know. The way things have worked out because I went to Iceland…met an airman there who had his high school annual and things…that’s why I’m here today, that’s why you’re here today..ya know… Broome: Alright. McGarrell: Things have a way of working out in life, ya know. If you..You trace…If you can all trace it back to some point in your life when you get old enough, you trace it all down to why you there..and where you are today. Broome: Uh Hmm. Alright, so you were in Iceland a year. Do you know your rank at this point? McGarrell:I went up there as an airman 3rd and got promoted airman 2nd after I’d been there…56 months. Broome: Do you feel like it was easy to move through the ranks or it wasn’t? McGarrell: Well…The first promotion was…but in the air police field, once you got the airman 2nd it was hard to get the airman1st because there weren’t that many openings. They would give so many openings per promotion cycle..which was every quarter for career fields. Mechanics, jet mechanics…stuff like that…they could get promoted real quick. You could make staff sergeant in two years…When I got out, let’s see…when I got out…I had 30-something months in grade for promotion. I was airman2nd and there’s very little chance of getting promoted Broome: Do you ever feel bad that it was harder for you to get promoted or? McGarrell: Oh , yes, money. Broome: Yeah, because of course with the extra… McGarrell: Not that great of money, but money. A difference every month.. Broome: Right, yeah. So the money appealed more than the actual having prestiege. McGarrell: Yeah, I mean we all did the same thing. Broome: Okay, so you said that…It was mainly based on the money and that they basically you would have liked to be promoted would you have not? McGarrell: Oh yes. 7 �Broome: …But that it was easier…It would have been easier to join another field if say you were just in it for a promotion, like some people may have hypothetically been. McGarrell: Alright, so...But now here’s the kicker, when I got to Iceland, a bunch of them said,”Any of yall know how to type? I raised my hand. I had some experience on a typewriter. They said, “We need a clerk in the Provost Marshal’s office, are you interested?” I said yeah, I’ll go there. The Provost Marshal office is the head of the air force police squadron. More or less the chief of police of the base. They need somebody to type security clearances there. That’s what I did for about eight months, sitting in an office typing security clearances. Broome: Did you like the office environment? McGarrell: Yeah. Broome: Or would you have rather been more outside? McGarrell: It was the military I worked the day shift five days a week. If I had been on the air police still I’d be working rotating shifts that rotated every month. After I got…after I had maybe been doing that eight months or nine months that after I got back to the states I wouldn’t be doing that. I better go on regular police duty and found out what I’m supposed to do out there…So, I did that about three months. Broome: Then this three months was the regular…for lack of a better word. McGarrell:Guarding airplanes..working a gate every once in a while. Broome: Okay. So after you had the eight months as a clerk and the three months after being with the air police..being outside doing your rounds that kind of thing, what happened after that? McGarrell: I was sent back to the states. Broome: You were sent back to the states? McGarrell: Assigned to Kessel Air Force base in California. Broome: Okay. So were you glad to leave Iceland. Were you glad to leave Iceland? McGarrell: It’s just..it’s just something you did, ya know. You served your time and did what they told you to. Broome: So basically I do my time and then I’ll move on and it’s all up to them and I have no control over it? McGarrell: Right, right. Broome: So, how did you like the California Air Force Base you were based at? McGarrell: Well, it was a SAC base, a Strategic Air Command base and at that time SAC was a little…rigid..but they had to be about what they were in for, ya know… Actually, where I was staged in in California, I liked it. It was in San Joaquin Valley…a hundred or so miles south of San Francisco and a couple hundred miles north of LA…It wasn’t a bad place but SAC used to 8 �have some strange rules. They used to have these alerts all the time, base sirens were supposed to go off and you were supposed to report. One of the guys had a way of knowing when they were going to have and alert.. and if it was our time..when we were off duty we’d always make sure we were off base when the alert went off..So we didn’t know about it…But the alert went off one time and we didn’t know about it and we had to go report and they said everybody was restricted to base, everyone was going to pull twelve hour shifts, and that…we didn’t know what was happening and they didn’t tell us what was happening. They started loading…This was a B-52 base where they trained, cross-trained B-50 pilots to fly the B-52 and we saw something coming from the weapons dump, the bomb dump. They were carrying what they called “weapons”. A “weapon” was nuclear weapon. They started loading them on the planes. We’d never seen them do that before. So, two days later they told us what was happening. The United States had sent Marines into Lebanon and something was going there in the country of Lebanon and they didn’t know how Russia was going to react, so they was getting ready. When we saw them loading those weapons on those planes it kind of scared us a little bit…As it eventually turned out nothing happened, but for two or three weeks we could not leave the base and those guys that were married, they could leave the base but only go to their quarters where they were living off base. Then they started easing up, we could get off base and then a month or two later they stood us down and we went back to regular shifts…That was kind of scary at the time. Broome: Okay, and what year was this..do you recall? McGarrell: It seems like ’57 or ’58. Broome: And this was..as you say..you were almost shocked.. McGarrell: Yes. Broome: In regards to the weapons you referred to, did everyone just know that, “Hey we have nuclear weapons over here” or was it…a closely guarded secret. McGarrell: We knew they were there. Now, talking about closely guarded. At one time, every time they brought a weapon from the …bomb dump to practice loading it onto a plane it was covered with a tarp and it had an air police security escort leading it…Then they finally got smart and said, “Why are they doing all this? The Russians know what they look like, they probably got our plans.” So, they didn’t cover them up no more. They provided their own security, the people from the bomb dump…The finally got smart…The reason they thought they were keeping it from the Russians..Sure,..the Russians knew what all we had. They probably knew more about than most of us did. Broome: Speaking of that, of course this is during the Cold War. Did you ever notice in particular for California or even Iceland how the Cold War related to the training, any restrictions on you, or any knowledge you gained from that? McGarrell: Nah, no. Broome: It didn’t have any kind of effect on the Air Force as whole that you know of? McGarrell: No, not that I know of. Talking about the Cold War, Russia used to have so called “fishing trawlers.” They used to come up around Iceland, we knew that they were intelligence 9 �ships is what they were..trying to see in..The navy had a squadron of …submarine hunters that they had up there P-2Vs “Neptunes.” They used to go out and bomb this fishing trawlers with their garbage from their lunch. Broome: As in nice little friendly international hospitality for lack of a better word in the Northern Atlantic? McGarrell: Haha, right right. Broome: So basically they’d drop their trash as a friendly, “Hello,hey we know you’re there” kind of thing. So, other than that little humorous anecdote, was their other experience you had other than the nuclear weapons of course? McGarrell: I saw Sputnik, …the first Sputnik, they told us when it was going to come over. They said sometime in the evening. They said if you look there you can see it. You could see it…shining in the air… Broome: How was that moment for you? McGarrell:It was…interesting. Broome: Was it scary? McGarrell:Nah, no. It was just a something they put up there shining at us. Broome: Just the Russians being the Russians kind of thing? At time of Sputnik were you even in the Air Force? Did you hear anything from your superiors regarding Sputnik? McGarrell:They told us about it. Where we could see it that evening. Broome: There was no suspension no…nothing like that? McGarrell:Oh, nah. No. Broome: Alright. So, you’re in California and you witness the issue with the Strategic Air Command and I know you said…let me go back in my notes here…How were they rigid? McGarrell:Uh, they didn’t put up with any foolishness, period. Broome: So, they were very …very serious regarding their training and their basic guidelines and rules they had to follow. McGarrell:And like I said, this was a training base where they trained B-52 pilots. I saw two of them twice while I was stationed in California. One of them landed short of the runway and …one landed on the runway and something happened and it burned right on the runway. Thing about it, some of those plane that were there are still flying today, 57 years later. Broome: The B-52s you’re speaking of? 10 �McGarrell:Yes, because they have…they rebuild them and upgrade them all the time. Broome: Does that ever concern you out of curiosity? McGarrell:Nah, they are very interesting, I’ve been all over them. On my shift, evening shift…nothing going on we’d be… walking flight line guarding these things. We’d climb up in them up through the wheel well, go up and sit in the pilot’s seat for a while and there was a catwalk that went from the pilot’s seat all the way to the tail gunner…We’d go and crawl in there and just sit up there. First thing they ever tell everybody is, “See this D-ring here?” Yes. “Don’t ever touch that.” That’s for the tail gunner to pull if he ever had to bail out. He could pull that and the tail would drop off and he could bail out. They said, “Don’t ever touch that.” Broome: Did anybody ever touch it? McGarrell:No. Broome: It was an understood thing, “Hey, let’s not touch this.” McGarrell:Yeah, this was among the people…I work and out on the flight line. Not for the superiors. Broome:..Of course you weren’t officially allowed to do this, were you? McGarrell:…It’s very mind numbing, dull, boring work. You’re walking around stupid airplanes carrying a rifle for eight hours… Broome: …To keep your own morale up, “Hey there’s an airplane let’s climb in it, right”? McGarrell:Yeah. You could almost train a monkey to do this thing. Broome: That’s an interesting way to put it there, sir…So, you said it was very dull and mind numbing. Was it basically the same experience you had in the clerk’s office in Iceland? McGarrell: Nah…up there in Iceland, while I was doing that job in the clerk’s office I was doing basically the same thing but seeing different people everyday…There was only three or four-three of us in the office and once a while I’d see the squadron commander come in…He didn’t pay us any attention. We were doing our job and that’s all he cared. Broome: …Going back to your story you’re in California on an Air Force Base you’re guarding B-52 at a training base, correct? McGarrell:Right. Broome: …What happened next? McGarrell: Along about…in January or February of 1959..my time was up in April or May I forget at the time, I forget, but in January or February they called three or four or five of us in the squadron commands office and asked how many of us would reenlist. None of us raised our hands. He said y’all will all be separated within two weeks…Said the only catch about it is that if you want reenlist after that you can’t reenlist for 91days. By being out 91 days you’d lose a stripe.... 11 �Broome: Did you ever think of reenlisting or was it an instant, “I don’t want to do that kind of thing”? McGarrell: I didn’t think…I didn’t want to reenlist…You couldn’t get out of the career field. I couldn’t see 20 years guarding air planes. Broome: So you didn’t see that there was any…? McGarrell: There wasn’t a future in it Broome:..wasn’t a future in it. McGarrell: Right. Broome: Do you regret that? Do you regret that at all? McGarrell: I have at times. Maybe if I’d been in a different career field, I’d have stayed in, but not in that field….Although one time during Vietnam I was living in Fayetteville. Broome: This was Fayetteville..? McGarrell: North Carolina, where Fort Bragg is. All my neighbors were army…airborne. They were also training new recruits at Fort Bragg for Vietnam. I thought about, “Could I reenlist?” I thought about it and thought no I couldn’t I had married in the time and had one child. I could not make enough to support them. If I had been single I may have gone back in then… Broome: It was one of those things financially..You didn’t think you could support a larger family which you had which in California was just you….You were..I know your time ran up in April or May of ’59, you were discharged then? McGarrell: Yeah, right…Then after that that I was in what they call inactive reserve up til my eight year obligation was up, which would have been…about 1962. You didn’t really have to do anything. You were supposedly viable to be called back up if there was an outbreak in hostilities…There was nothing. Broome: …Let’s say you joined the Air Force a couple years later that would have put that 1962 to 1965, 1966. McGarrell: I’d be in the middle of Vietnam probably…Now, joining the Air Force when I did..or going it closer. Back then…they had a GI Bill then that ran out I believe January 1954. If you were in before then you got what they call education benefits and all that…and I never thought about that. I went in 2 or 3 months too late to get that. It would have made a big difference in my life…It would have made a difference in my life if I had went in early enough to get those benefits. I could have gone to college earlier instead of going to college when I was 40-something. Broome: So, ’59 you are out of the Air Force,…what’d you do career wise? McGarrell: I became a police officer in Roanoke, Virginia. Broome: Do you feel like your military experience in the Air Force helped you get this job? 12 �McGarrell:Oh yeah. Broome: Just outta curiosity, how was the civilian police force of Roanoke, Virginia different than the…? McGarrell: Oh..night and day. In the civilian police force you’re dealing with, all kinds of …I don’t wanna call people “garbage”…You’re dealing with a lower, generally a lower classes of civilians. In the Air Force, you didn’t have those types of problems. You were doing something entirely different, like I was guarding airplanes or working on gates going into and off the base. Broome: So you ended up being a police officer in Roanoke for two and a half years? How’d you like that? McGarrell: I didn’t. Towards the end I could see that there was no future in it. If you wanted to get ahead you had to play the politics..and two and half years I was the low man on senority in my shift. There was very little turn over. So I got looking and I was able to get in a management training program at a retail store and they trained me to be store manager. Broome: A retail program? McGarrell: Old W.T.Grant Company, they didn’t at that time, they didn’t require the manager to be a college graduate. They had certain tests they put you through …and if you passed these tests and fit their profile, they’d put you in the training program…They’d teach you everything you needed to know to run..a store. Broome: Alright, well, I know you talked about this training program. Do you feel like there was more..I know you spoke of your future several times, do you feel that in your civilian life there was ..easier to advance in your career? McGarrell: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Everywhere I’ve been. I’ve had several different careers in my time but you can do it. At least when I was in a military you were on a certain path and that was it. Broome: You said once you were in a certain path that was it. Do you think there was any flexibility? ..For your example you came out of your training and you were going to Air Base Security and you were stuck on that more or less, you felt stuck there. McGarrell: Oh yeah. Broome: Well, let me ask your overall military experience as a whole? Does that still effect you today? McGarrell: Oh yes, you gain discipline…I think part of what’s wrong with our country today, and there are some things that are wrong with the country, is that there is no …military training or not necessarily military training but ..obligation to do something for the country for a couple years. Back then, there basically was and I think it made a difference. Broome: Would you be in favor of having some kind of, not necessarily military obligation but some kind of service obligation? 13 �McGarrell: Yes, yes. Broome: You said back when you were serving you had an eight year obligation. McGarrell: Yes, eight year obligation you had. Now there were certain ways of getting out..physically…or some guys would get married and have a baby real quick that’d get them out of it. Or if you were a ministerial student or a medical student you could get deferred. Broome: Alright, but you said you gained a lot of discipline. Is there anything you notice about yourself that still shows the fact that you have a military background Like is there any particular trait? McGarrell: People, several people, have talked about the way I walk and stand. Broome: The way you walk and stand? McGarrell: They say, “Were you in the military?” Broome: They can almost pick you out of a crowd you’d say? McGarrell: Yes, I never notice it, but… Broome: It’s just one of those things that people notice about you. And I’m sure that must look great on a resume, pretty great, having military experience on your resume. McGarrell: Yeah, it did. In some cases it does. Broome: Do you think that helped you with you retail position you spoke of? McGarrell: Oh yeah, because back then, they didn’t pay much to a trainee, but if you were married you got $5 above the starting pay and if were in college and if you had been in service you got $5 more. Broome: And you were married at the time? McGarrell: Yeah, so I got two out of three. Broome: Alright, and you ended up in retail and have been in a couple of different..positions, jobs, fields, since then. Let me ask you this question and you can answer it however you want. Do you ever regret your military service? McGarrell: No, not at all. Broome: You don’t regret it and you feel like you learned a lot from it? McGarrell: Yeah, yeah I learned some things and got to see some things..How else would I ever see the country of Iceland?..How else would I have seen California? I was in California twice, when I went to school out there and when I came back from overseas I was stationed out there…I met some nice people out there. 14 �Broome: Well, sir, we’re coming to the end of our interview here is there any final statement you’d like to make regarding military or anything like that or how you feel our military is…the Air Force in particular ..or just military in general in the current state. McGarrell: As far as I know, it’s …they’re all in good shape…I talked to a young man yesterday. He had a Marine Corps lanyard and I asked him, “Are you a Marine?” He said, “No, I leave in December for basic training. I said, “Good luck” and I said, “I admire any young man who can make it through the Marine corps boot camp.” The Marine Corps is the hardest boot camp there is of course there are tears. The Army is next followed by the Navy then the Air Force. Anybody who makes it through boot camp in the military today, even the Air Force, basic training, I respect them. Broome: Alright, sir well we are going to wrap up our interview. I’d like to thank Mr. Patrick McGarrell again for the record and what was your rank again, sir?..What was your rank again sir, your highest rank achieved? McGarrell: Airman 2nd. Broome: 2nd Airman Patrick McGarrell, thank you for your time. 15 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/6d4045f1d4e61c9997c59801d6cf9b29.mp3 b31a5f5c2efea9a79f825a5ad271f317 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 57.3 KB 55.1 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) Naval Reserve/ Air Force Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Airman, 2nd class Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Broome; David McGarrell; Patrick Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Broome, David Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. McGarrell, Patrick Interview Date 10/12/2012 Number of pages 15 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:40:10 Date digitized 2/5/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code ad8317757023073c53d9b505a3b19758 b31a5f5c2efea9a79f825a5ad271f317 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_McGarrell_Patrick_20121012_transcript_M 5018_McGarrell_Patrick_20121012_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patrick McGarrell, Airman 2nd Class [October 12, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Broome, David McGarrell, Patrick Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Patrick McGarrel, born in 1936, went to basic training twice: first for the Naval Reserve and second for the Air Force. After that he went to a language school which he said had "a 97, 98 percent washout rate" and flunked out. He ended up serving at an Air Base in Iceland for a year. Subject The topic of the resource McGarrel, Patrick Veterans United States Interviews Air Base Defense Air Force Iceland Korean War language school Naval Reserve https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d39503147dcd02e0b5d5af5a60ec8377.pdf fdc07aab56631b4e17745e4304ac1520 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Samuel McNeill U.S. Army 1952-1954 Korean War October 14, 2012 Jackson Sams: Today is October the 14th and we are interviewing Sam McNeill in his home in Candor North Carolina. Sam can you...Sorry this is for a history class at Appalachian State University and my name is Jackson Sams. Sam can you go ahead and tell me your birth date? McNeill: 7-11-31 Jackson Sams: Ok and other people attending are Coy McNeill, Sam's son and my stepfather. Sam can you go ahead and tell me the war and branch you served in. McNeill: I served in the army in Korea and I was in the quarter master. I was in the service center there, service center number two. We serviced textile goods for the second and third division and the fifth regimental combat team, and I believe there’s some other Ethiopian outfit there as well as a Turkish outfit there that we issued supplies to. like I said it was a quarter masters center textile mostly clothing, armored vests, tents, cots, things like that soldiers used over in Korea and if item brought in could be repaired we repaired it like clothing or armored vest or whatever if it couldn’t be repaired we issue them a new one. a new whatever and also showers there where loads of soldiers would come in from the line and they would shower and they had new they issue them new clothes there they leave there’s and issue them clean clothes to leave in and they'd do that every so often and we had in our compound we had a tailor shop an armor vest shop, tent shop, they had stove shop to repair or issue new stove small or large ones and machines shop to repair anything that the machine shop could repair, small items. and there i stayed there for 16 months took a break and went to Japan take a weekend sometimes and go down to Seoul or Dong Won Po, where our headquarters was. Sams: Ok McNeill: and (...) what was pretty much it for 16 months Sams: Wow that seems like quite a job. Do you remember your rank while you while you were in Korea? McNeill: I was a corporal Sams: A corporal ok McNeill: yeah 1 �Sams: And now what was where was the exact place you served? McNeill: Its right at the center of right back of the 38th parallel we had a service center to the left of us number one we were number 2 in the center and there was another number three over on the mountainous side (...) where you have the Sea of Japan coming in over there and that seas between I guess that’s what you call the sea between Korea and Japan. Sams: Ok, now when you were in Korea, I know Coy has told me stories but can you tell me exactly why you went were you enlisted or did you join yourself? McNeill: I was drafted. Sams: So you were drafted? McNeill: I was drafted, I didn’t join, no. Sams: ok McNeill: I went in in the fall of 52' and got out of in the fall of 54' and (...) seemed like a more than 16 months but that’s what it was over there not counting going coming. (...) Sams: Now while you when you were drafted where were you living at the time? McNeill: In Moore County in Eagle Springs in Moore County [North Carolina]. And I went to Raleigh to be examined when I was called I was called back to Raleigh again. You want me to keep on talking? Sams: Sure as much as you want McNeill: went from Raleigh to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, stayed there a week while they outfitted us with clothes. Then sent us up highway number one again on up through Raleigh to Virginia we did a train and and (...) I’m having a blank... Sams: That’s ok take your time McNeill: thought I never would. Fort Lee, Virginia which is near, back this side of Richmond right out from what is that town there... can’t pull it out. Sams: Its fine you don’t... McNeill: anyway its Fort Lee, Virginia we stayed there. We took basic and I don’t remember exactly how many weeks but after basic training we stayed there and just moved on over to the quarter master school... were we I was in the class studying textile repair. It was just a class room filled with desks and sewing machines we learned to use the sewing machine to repair shirts and pants things of that nature and (...) when I got to Korea I didn’t do any of that they had Koreans civilians to do the repair work. I was just shop foreman I was over the shop I received and issued 2 �the armored vests was my shop and that’s what I did the whole time I was there. they had more than armor vests they had the whole armor suit for the engineers that worked in mine fields and things like that and the war they called a truce three months after I was there. They started turning a lot of vests in and we had a pile as long as from here to that building. 100 foot and highest piles of armor vests and we had to go through and grade them and save the good ones and destroy the ones that wasn’t repairable and that took a long time after they signed the truce. Coy McNeill: Didn’t you find body parts in some of those? McNeill: yeah we had found body parts in some of those armor suits Sams: Wow. McNeill: Where the engineers use to set mine fields and take up mine fields you could occasionally find something in there you didn’t want to see... but... after a while before I come home we just practically without anything to do. it just kinda when the call the truce we just mostly processed and turned in things and packaged them and get ready to send them to somewhere else or back here. Sams: Now when they called the truce sorry how many months did you say you were in Korea? McNeill: I was there 16 but only three months while the fighting was going on Sams: ok alright. McNeill: It was a relief for it to stop you could sleep better you didn’t hear boom boom all night long. Sams: I bet that was good McNeill: And... Sams: Can you tell me some of the more memorable experiences you had? Maybe a funny story or something that really stands out in your mind? McNeill: the first week there before I was assigned to the armored vest shop. you didn’t have anything to do they'd make you a shotgun guard on a truck that’s going to Dong Yong Po and getting ammunition and hauling it across the 38th parallel and they'd have what you call a shotgun you did that the first week you were there and then after you got your job like I did in the armored vest shop I didn’t have to do that anymore that was the experiences that the roads were puffy dust and it strangle you just be an inch thick in dust and stop along the way and snack something it couldn’t get to a meal but you'd carry along something like I’m trying to think packages we had then were K rations and C rations we would take and fix a drink or get crackers and food out of a can. 3 �Sams: And is that what you ate a lot of times? McNeill: that’s the first week I ate a lot of C rations. Sams: How were those? McNeill: they'd keep you alive and but then there wasn’t very tasty they weren’t good. And but they were keep you going for longer than a week if you had to... I don’t know or if I’m suppose to say this or not but when I got over there all the equipment they had was old World War Two trucks ‘40 and ’41, ‘42 models and I was dumb founded I couldn’t believe what I was seeing and we had alternators to make our electricity and they were old 4 cylinder—same engine as in a jeep—old flat headed mackin motors four cylinder engine then after they signed the truce. they started sending in new trucks automatic transmission GMCs new just didn’t have them when the war was going on but after the war seems like we got plenty equipment. Sams: That’s interesting McNeill: our generators were we had four of those little four cylinder flat headed engines for a generator to create electricity they could send us one diesel that would replace four of them. Sams: O wow McNeill: Produce the same amount of and the guys that had to stand by to repair them and keep them going man it just it just made their job much easier they didn’t have to be working on engines all the time they could just put fuel in them and set back and watch them produce. Sams: That’s great, that sounds good. McNeill: we had a funny saying we'd say that happened after Eisenhower become president and we had all that all that old equipment we used when we fighting the war then when after we signed the truce we were just swamped with new equipment and it didn’t add up to us over there using it but that’s the way it was. Sams: Now when you in Korea did you ever have contact with your family? Did you ever keep up with them? McNeill: Course some people would write every day some people write once a week some people would write once a month I think I averaged I’d say three times a week anyway and when I went on R&R to Japan I got to call home and talk to my folks and call Betty we were engaged then and I called her and talked to her and woke her up in the middle of the night I wasn’t thinking about the time difference and what time it was back here I just had a chance to call and did it while I had a chance. Sams: Right 4 �McNeill: But she was kinda groggy I woke her up Sams: So I know you mentioned when you were on leave you went to Japan. What else would you do while you were on leave? McNeill: we go down to Seoul for three days sometimes the headquarters was right below there in Dong Won Po but the old capital building for Korea was in Seoul and it was turned into a PX for US soldiers it’s amazing what you could find to buy in there it just it just a department store like you could find all kinda things you might want to send somebody a present home you could find it there you had to look out ahead and get it while you were there and have it to mail at the proper time but it was fun just going down there and walking through that and seeing what they had and being able to buy that you needed put in a package and take it back with you. you could get food or something that you might need that you didn’t have I’m not thinking of something. I might get a better flashlight than the one I had issued to me Sams: Ok, O Ok McNeill: and things like that a razor shaving equipment and it was good to have of course in the PX at the service center we had more than you might think for you had food, cigarettes, Tobacco, some clothing that you might be able to wear but what was fun was they had two pump shotguns in there and after you pulled guard you had the next day off and we could check those guns out and go out pheasant hunting. We could always find a Korean that would be our bird dog for a pack of cigarettes Sams: O wow! McNeill: and we'd scare him up and if we missed him he'd fly over a little hill this guy would run around and flush him back over you so you could have another chance at him. Sams: Wow McNeill: And that was right much fun on maybe if you pull guard the night before you'd sleep til 12 and then go pheasant hunting that evening and it was real relaxing you could forget your job and it wasn’t so aggravating for a day or two Sams: That’s great. McNeill: It was it was a relief from work but it got to where before I left you could get more things in the PX at the service center than you could when I first went there. It was much more comfortable after the truce was declared it was much, serving was much easier. Coy McNeill: Ask him if he had any dentist over there. Sams: I know that you had one story that I've hear about getting a tooth pulled could you share that with us? 5 �McNeill: O yeah that was terrible. Wisdom teeth the first two come through and our bottom had just broke and I was advised to get them pulled so we had to go up behind the third division medics and man that was crude it was just an old tent and I do believe I sat on a stump and they had two, two by fours nailed on the back of the stump and one this way to lay your head like that and one fella held my head like that while the other chiseled what was left of those what was left of the wisdom teeth out and man that that hurt and of course they give you what they had in your hand and of course when you left they’d give you left they'd give you a hand full of ACP its suppose to be the same thing as aspirin but we always said it weren't you'd have to take two to make one aspirin back home Sams: Right McNeill: that’s what they give me I got back to my tent you want me to tell it all Coy? Coy McNeill: Sure Sams: You can talk as much as you want McNeill: I didn’t get there in time for supper and I couldn’t eat anyway so when I was R&R in Japan I got me a bottle of whiskey and I put it in my locker and I was hurting and I said I gonna drink some whiskey and I drank a little too much and the next morning I woke up with my head hanging off and blood just dripping and I thick headed and I couldn’t remember having a tooth pulled and I said lord that whiskey created an ulcer I’m bleeding I’m bleeding from my stomach and after while I got up and went out back and threw up and then cleared my head then I remember having teeth pulled then the feeling was coming back but that was a prank I pulled on myself taking too much whiskey for pain reliever after having them teeth pulled I got a good scare from that the next morning when I woke up. Sams: I bet so. Now, Now when you, when your service ended tell me kinda that experience and did you come straight home or did you go back to Japan? Or how did you do that? McNeill: we went to Pusan and stead of coming through Japan like we did coming we left yeah the ship we went over on was an old converted liberty ship and its twenty four hundred troops on it plus the crew so there’s probably 3000 people on it and the sea was rough and it rode rough but coming back the ship come from Japan and it had some wife’s of men who were able to stay with their husbands in Japan and most times there would be officers and their wives were already on the ship when they stopped by Pusan and we loaded on but that was two stacker and it was much more comfortable it rode... twice as good as the one going over it would cruise and not beat you to death. Sams: Right 6 �McNeill: And all of the all the dependents were on the top deck and we were on below deck but really we would stay outside all day long and it was just it was just pleasant cruise coming home on that big longer ship with two big engines that could just , just more comfortable. Sams: That’s great. Now when you came home did you come through San Francisco or. McNeill: We did we came there and got there at four o'clock in the morning and then ordered us all out on deck with our duffle backs and we sat on them duffle bags til day light we still sitting there til 9 o'clock before they started letting us depart get off. And we were shouldering our duffle bags and was getting off and we saw these young girls and boys to out there all dressed alike they had oxfords on ankle socks girls had plaid skirts and they were welcome us home I though this is nice this is nice for them to come down here and do that for troops coming in. that boy walking alone with me we served together in Korea he ask them what they were doing there where they were from did they have a loved one or something they were greeting and that busted our bubble they said they were from the school up on the hill and when troop ships come in they paid them five dollars and give them the morning off to go down and welcome the troops. Sams: O Ok. Well this has been a great experience talking to you. Is there any closing remarks you wanna talk about? McNeill: I’ll probably think of something after you leave but its good reminiscing about it it was... I think about it a lot to myself don’t talk a lot about it but I do think about it a lot to myself but the only place I think I got unnerved over there while I was riding shotgun on the truck hauling ammunition and a big convey we went in behind the line and they went to shelling us over there and they told them to scatter the convey so truck drivers one would go this way one would go that way and got in the rough terrain that thing bounced and I fell off. Sams: O wow McNeill: He went on of course and later that night I found him we went up a trench there’s a mountain in front of us they all ordered us up that trench to wind around and go up and he went just a few feet and stop and waited on me he knew I would come through eventually and he was kidding me about he was he been there and bout ready to rotate home. He was a tough dude from St. Louis Missouri and he loved to rag me about how upset I got that night. Sams: Very good. Well this has been great and glad we could do this thank you for your time McNeill: Your welcome Jackson and I hope it serves you well Sams: It will I’m sure. I’m sure it will be listened to for years now 7 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/37277063fcfda48a38b595c7bc34882f.MP3 5f1336fd3864f5bd266d5d987fdecd0f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 52.3 KB 30.2 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sams; Jackson McNeill; Samuel Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Sams, Jackson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. McNeill, Samuel Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 7 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:21:59 Date digitized 2/6/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code ec1071013a3922b4660798156356d6a2 5f1336fd3864f5bd266d5d987fdecd0f Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_McNeill_Samuel_20121014_transcript_M 5018_McNeill_Samuel_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Samuel McNeill [October 14, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sams, Jackson McNeill, Samuel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Corporal Samuel McNeill, born in 1931, was drafted in the Korean War. He served in the US army and mainly worked in the textiles industry. He traveled often on leave, and got to see Japan and Seoul, Korea. Subject The topic of the resource McNeill, Samuel Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews army corporal draft Korea Seoul textiles https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/76fd47b969219c60684b8305728c4fcb.pdf 834cacc22a04e20e51ce29e7e6a1dbf6 PDF Text Text 10/15/2012 1:02:00 PM Transcript of Oral History Interview with Kenneth Robert Miller. October 14th, 2012 Boone, NC Thomas Miller: Today is Sunday, October 14, 2012. 6:25PM. Currently in a Lowe's parking lot conducting this interview via phonecall. Kenneth Miller: Did you say 14th7 Thomas Miller: I believe so. October 14th. Kenneth Miller: Yeah, you got it. Thomas Miller: Ok. Kenneth Miller: Yep. Thomas Miller: So grandpa, if you could state your name and your birthdate. Kenneth Miller: Alright. My name is Kenneth Robert Miller. My birthdate is August 6th, 1940. Thomas Miller: Thank you very much and the people attending this interview are myself, Thomas Miller, and my grandfather Kenneth Miller. Ok ... Grandpa ... Kenneth Miller: Yes. Thomas Miller: First question: Which war and branch? Which war did you serve in and which branch of service? Kenneth Miller: I served in the Cold War. And that really took place following World War II all the way up until the Berlin Wall fell. And those dates are kind of considered the Cold War. And I served ... in the United States Army 3rd Armor division as a tank driver. �Thomas Miller: Awesome. What was your rank or what is your rank? Kenneth Miller: My rank ... My departing rank was Specialist 4 th Class. Thomas Miller: Thank you. Where did you serve? Kenneth Miller: Well I took my basic training in Fort Hood, Texas. And that lasted for 16 weeks. I went in the Army in June and so that Fall of 1958 I was sent to Germany at a place called Gelnhausen. G-E-L-N-H-A-U-S-E-N. And that was kind of... It's on the full gap, which is the main route that the .Russians would have taken if they were going to attack Europe. And so the 3rd Armor Division had the responsibility of guarding that full gap and stopping the Russians from doing that if we could. But we were outnumbered considerably and I'm glad they didn't try to do that. So I was in Germany for two years and in the Fall of 1960 I was transferred back to the States and I finished up my tour of duty in ... at Fort Devens Massachusetts. Which is right outside Boston. And that tour of duty lasted something like six or seven months. And ... the night President John F. Kennedy was elected President in the Fall of 1960 I was there in Boston, which is more or less his hometown, and people went crazy and they were watching it on television. It was a late election before it was really known but people kind of had a feeling that he was gonna get elected. And, well I got to see all that. Thomas Miller: That's really cool Grandpa. Personally why did you join? Kenneth Miller: Well. ..We finished up high school and several of us guys really did not want to go immediately on to college nor did we want to waste the next two or three years. So, I guess about five or six of us joined the Army and pretty much we stayed together or close to each other throughout our tour of duty. Mostly in Germany. It was just a question of we didn't want to waste time, we wanted to be productive during that period of time. When I got out of the Army that's when I went to college. �Thomas Miller: ...Why did you choose the Army? Why did you choose to go the Army ... route? Kenneth Miller: (laughs) I really don't know. (laughter) One reason, I think at that time the Airforce required a four year enlistment and so did the Navy. The Marines were a little too rough for us. And so that kind of left the Army and that's the way we went. Thomas Miller: (laughter) You said you went to Germany. Kenneth Miller: Yes . Thomas Miller: Do you remember kind of what it was like? Kind of like the overall atmosphere? The environment? Kenneth Miller: Sure. When I was in Germany from the Fall of 1958 to the Fall of 1960. In that two year period I spent nine months of each year out in the boondocks on manuevers. It was quite the thing at that time because noone was really sure what the Russians were going to do. So we took our tanks and we were always on manuever. And .. . while I was there I did get to go, we had three months back at our base in Gelnhausen each year. I was able to go to Holland for a while and England and France just to visit. And ... That was interesting. The German people at that time, some of them liked us and some of (them) didn't like Americans. If you can remember some of the things that occurred during World War II, Americans and the British carpet bombed a lot of Germany, and the Germans never did forgive America for doing that. But, those times are gone now, that was over fifty years ago. And the bomb damage that I saw, a lot of it, what they did was just build up fences so you couldn't see it. They more or less just hid the bomb damage. Although they were rejuvinating as a nation real quickly, at this time they were still making early progress. What people would do, the younger people at that time, what they did, the Germans to go on some time off. (coughs) Excuse me. They would take motorcycles and camping equipment and travel throughout Europe on motorcycles and camping equipment. There was no such thing as a beach, or anything like that. Or a Disney World, that just didn't exist. And that's how they kind of entertained �themselves. But a lot of Germans when I was there really didn't like Americans and some areas were put off limits to us because of that. But by and large I met some very good people there. And I got to go into some homes of some of the Germans and have meals with them and enjoy being with them. Thomas Miller: That's really cool Grandpa. What are some of your ... You already kind of touched on a couple of those kinds of memories, but what were some of your most memorable experiences? Kenneth Miller: In Germany, the memory that will never leave me was how cold it was. When we were out in the field at best we hadn't... The tanks that we had to stay in to stay warm. We had tents on occasion and if we were real lucky we had some temporary barracks to stay warm. But the temporature would get down to something like thirty below zero at night throughout the winter and there was always snow on the ground. It was just very miserable and that's my most vivid memory was that weather. I really did not like it. During the summer time it was okay, but even at that it was just an awful way to make a living. Thomas Miller: I think I saw you upload a picture on Facebook of you a while back. Of you in Germany I believe. Do you know which picture I'm talking about? Kenneth Miller: Say what Tommy? Thomas Miller: Do you know which picture I'm talking about? It's of you and I think you're at a campsite of some sort. There's snow on the ground everywhere. Kenneth Miller: Yeah, that was two locations. One of them was Vielfleckin, the other name kind of escapes me. But...where I was in Gelnhausen, as the crow flies it was forty miles to the Soviet border. East German border actually. So we were forty miles away from five divisions of Russian armor. And Vielfleckin was in one direction and this other site that we went to was in another, but both of them were up toward the East German border. And �we stayed within two or three miles of the East German border and did our manuevers. And they watched us as we did them. (cough) Thomas Miller: How did you feel? How did you personally feel doing those manuevers with Russians so close? Kenneth Miller: How did I feel about what? Thomas Miller: Just in general, about doing those manuevers and knowing that the Russians were so close. Kenneth Miller: Well ... We tried our best not to think too much about it. I was seventeen, eighteen years old and we didn't think the Russians would come after us. (cough) As it was I mean we're talking full-time nuclear war if they would have done that. And there were a lot of NATO troops there along with us. So they would have had a difficult time entering central Europe to begin with ... even though we were greatly outnumbered. But we never really thought about that, day to day. It was only something we thought about when we were called out on full alert, which is something like three or four times a year. We'd get a midnight phonecall, everybody had to run to their tanks and go to designated spots. You had so long a time to get there. And it was only during those times that you would really think about the Russians and what was really going on. Thomas Miller: Were you awarded any medals or citations? Kenneth Miller: Well, the only medal I got was a good conduct medal. I did get some medals for being an excellent rifleman. But no medals because I was not actually in a war. I ultimately also got the Cold War medal but no shooting war. Thomas Miller: While you were stationed in Germany how did you stay in touch with your family? Kenneth Miller: The only way I could and that was by mail. U.S. mail. I'd write letters to them, and they would write letters to me. It would take, oh I �don't know, two to three weeks to ... for my letter to get to them and for them to respond another two to three weeks. It was a slow process, and we always did look forward to mail call hoping that we'd have a bunch of mail. Sometimes we'd get a couple of letters, sometimes none. But U.S . mail was the only way. There was no such thing as telephones to call home or iPads (laughs) or computers, facetime and all that. None of that existed. Thomas Miller: What did you guys do to entertain yourselves? Or to pass the time? Kenneth Miller: Well. .. (laughs) Sometimes we would visit a local guesthouse, which were what we called the bars. The beer was excellent. We did travel around locally when we had the chance, but you got to remember when you're out on manuevers like I was, so much of the time you had no opportunity to go anywhere. So, it wasn't... We just didn't get to entertain ourselves very much. (cough) Thomas Miller: (Pause) Umm ... Kenneth Miller: I got another vivid memory which is part of that too. The music that we listened to included The Platters musical group back then was very popular. And they had this song "When Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." I remember that song playing over and over and over. And it would make us so homesick, that it was pathetic. Thomas Miller: I'm sorry to hear that Grandpa. Kenneth Miller: That's right. (laughters) Thomas Miller: What did you think about your officers or your fellow soldiers. Kenneth Miller: Back when I was in the Army, there was also a draft. Now I volunteered, and me and my friends all volunteered. But most people, probably most, were drafted. So you had no choice about who were your �bunkmates or (coughs) who you associated with or whatever. And there were truly all types of people. There were some I'm sure were told to get in the Army or jail. They had no choice. Some had never finished highschool, that wasn't necessarily a requirement either. Well, you know, you met all types of guys. Most were really great guys, a few of them were not. Thomas Miller: After your term ended did you keep in contact with any of those people? Kenneth Miller: I kept in contact particularly with a fellow down in Tennessee, who was in my outfit. (cough) Now he was a little older than me. Four or five years older. And he was drafted. But he and I became very close friends and he had his wife over there. We had a good time all of us together. And I kept in touch with him until he died about three years ago of Parkinson's Disease. He was from Athens, Tennessee. Now, in addition to him, the guys that went in the service with me, most of them are still around here. Most of them are still living even if a couple of them aren't in great health they're still around. But the fellow down in Tennessee was the only one I really kept in close touch with over the years. Thomas Miller: Do you remember the exact day that your service ended? Kenneth Miller: Yeah. It was May the 10th, 1961. Thomas Miller: Where were you at the time? Kenneth Miller: Fort Devens, Massachusetts. I was in a small outfit there that was really a military police outfit. And my responsibility was to keep their weapons. I was a weapons expert, small arms .... And keep their weapons safe and clean and whatever. (cough) Thomas Miller: Weapons expert. Kenneth Miller: Yeah. Thomas Miller: Sounds pretty cool Grandpa. �Kenneth Miller: Yep. Thomas Miller: What did you do the days or weeks after your service ended? Kenneth Miller: Well, I'll tell ya we all received a special bonus pay when we left the Army. Wasn't much, but it was I don't know fifteen hundred dollars or something like that. And me and a couple of buddies, I don't even remember them, we went to New York City and we spent it all about a week, maybe less than that. Then I came on home. I had a car at the time and I just drove back to Frankfort (KY) after that. Thomas Miller: And you said that you went to school afterwards? Kenneth Miller: Yeah I uhh .. . That summer I got back in Frankfort somewhere at the end of May (cough) maybe a little sooner. And met up again with an old girlfriend. She and I got married that summer and then she was going to Eastern Kentucky University and I went to that school because she was there. And then I went through that university and got my degree in three years to try to make up for some lost time. And so that's kind of what I did, you know after I got out of the Army. Thomas Miller: Did you join any veteran's organizations or anything like that afterwards? Kenneth Miller: I don't think so Tommy, I uhh .. We at that time in the 60's or whatever, we kind of had our fill of the military. When I was in the Army the officers lived pretty well. Like your dad (cough) he lived okay compared to the enlisted people. We didn't have a very good time necessarily, we were on kind of the bottom of the food chain, so I don't know. I just had enough of military and for ten or fifteen years I just, you know on rare occasions will I even talk about it. Thomas Miller: I guess that kind of ties into one of the last questions. Did your military experience influence the way that you thought about war, politics or about the military in general? �Kenneth Miller: Yes, very much so. I saw how soldiers really lived and what sacrifices that soldiers make to serve ·this country. Even in peace time the sacrifice is tremendous. And I got every admiration for them. Today we have an all-volunteer Army, and I would say that the guys in the Army from the Private to the General are much better troops than we were back in my day. And they're better educated, better trained, have better equipment, live better, eat better, but still it's a sacrifice because they don't.. .much. I've met many of the families of those who have been killed in Iraq and Iran . Iraq and Afghanistan, not Iran. (cough) And they .. .Several of these families, they got nothing. They got nothing. And they're very poor people. You want to reach out and help them some way. You just... The need is overwhelming. Thomas Miller: Just overall, how has your service and experience affected your life in general? Kenneth Miller: My service? Thomas Miller: Yes sir, and your experience. Kenneth Miller: (cough) Well, I certainly grew up in a hurry while I was in the military. I became a much more mature and responsible person and that stayed with me my entire life. You learn how to do things for yourself. You learn how to be a man, what most people would consider to be a man. Things that come to you sooner (cough) than probably you would have received them had you not gone into the military. So it gives you an appreciation for other cultures, and other ways of life that you come into contact with. It was a big benefit to me. I 'm glad I did it, I'm glad that I went in, I'm glad I served. I 'm glad that Kenny went in and I was so proud of him and what he had done. You just can't say enough about that. Thomas Miller: Is there anything else that you would like to add? That we haven't really covered in this interview? Kenneth Miller: Well, not.. .not so much. It was a hard life for three years in the military. It wasn't easy, but there were exciting times, exciting moments. We try to forget the hardest of the times, I think all of us in the �military do that and remember the better times. But it's something that I'm extremely proud of. Anything else? Thomas Miller: I think that may be it. I'll have plenty of questions for you whenever I see you next time. Kenneth Miller: Ok. Thomas Miller: Actually, is there anything while you were over in Germany ... any kind of experience that. .. is the most memorable to you that you just reflect back on? Kenneth Miller: While I was in Germany? Thomas Miller: Yes sir. Kenneth Miller: Tommy, not so much. I think the combination of times that we were called out on alert was the times that we were most on edge and probably will stay with me forever. And they have for this day. Those were memorable times, even then you know some of your friends didn't come back because of accidents that can very well happen as you're driving these big armor vehicles around on snow and ice and everything else. That kind of sticks with you a little bit. But ... I don't know Tommy, that's kind of about as memorable as it gets. Thomas Miller: Yes sir. Alright well thank you Grandpa. Thank you for your service Grandpa. Kenneth Miller: Okie dokie. I 'm gonna sign this paper here and I'll get it back to ya in a few minutes. Thomas Miller: Yes sir. But thank you so much for everything really. Kenneth Miller: Ok. Thomas Miller: I appreciate it. �Kenneth Miller: You take care Tommy. Thomas Miller: You too Grandpa. I love you. Kenneth Miller: Love you. Thomas Miller: Bye. Kenneth Miller: Bye. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/270f51fb23b622c9676cc27f42bf218c.mp3 d617b6ac701f14c80a808907b1f2a46a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 986 KB 23.8 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) Specialist 4th class Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miller; Thomas Miller; Kenneth Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Miller, Thomas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Miller, Kenneth Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:26:01 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code b7aba978dcace17e89007a4a11ce22a3 d617b6ac701f14c80a808907b1f2a46a Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Epson Perfection V600 Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Document Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Miller_Kenneth_20121014_transcript_M 5018_Miller_Kenneth_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kenneth Robert Miller [October 14, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Miller, Thomas Miller, Kenneth Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Kenneth Miller, born in 1940, enlisted in the army in 1958 because he did not want to go straight to college after high school. However, he still wanted those in-between years to be productive. He was stationed in Gelnhausen, Germany for two years during the Cold War. He never saw combat, but worked as a tank driver. Subject The topic of the resource Miller, Kenneth Robert Veterans Cold War United States Interviews 1958 3rd Armor Division Cold War Fort Hood Gelnhausen Germany specialist tank driver US Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a1d4e3f39f461b1213bad942a8690064.pdf 6d8f9ea432898e6277b79e697881088b PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Melvin Mullis, 3rd class Petty Officer U.S. Navy 1944-1946 World War II October 14, 2012 Matthew Price: My name is Matthew Price and I’m interviewing Melvin Mullis on October 14, 2012. We are at Melvin’s house. What branch of the military did you serve in? Mullis: I was in the Navy Price: What years did you serve? Mullis: I served from 1944 through 1946 Price: What was your rank? Mullis: I was a third class petty officer in the Navy Price: What where you doing before you got drafted? Mullis: I was in high school and I was drafted out of the senior class of high school and reported for duty Price: Where you expecting to be drafted? Mullis: Well yea, everyone, every eligible person, a young man was subject to be drafted and I was one of them. So I answered the call and was put into the Navy and then I took my boot training at Bainbridge, Maryland. And after that I was assigned to a ship and we went aboard a ship in New Orleans, Louisiana and we went down to the Panama cannel and through the Pacific. Price: What ship were you on? Mullis: I was on the USS Yaupon and we went through the Panama Canal and went up to San Diego to take on supplies and fuel and went to Pearl Harbor and from there we went into the Pacific. The furtherest I got was Okinawa Price: Where you only in WW2? Mullis: Yes, the War ended a few weeks before we got to Okinawa and so I was not in any combat but we were headed to it. But Mr. Truman stopped the war for us and we didn’t have to get into combat. 1 �Price: So no major combat or battles for you? Mullis: No, no battles Price: What was your main job on the boat Mullis: Damage control Price: What did you do with that? Mullis: In the event we were hit we would try to keep the ship from sinking, if there was any way at all, long enough at least for the men to get off. So I would be one of the last ones of the ship because I would be trying to get everybody else off the boat Price: Trying to keep the ship up as long as possible? Mullis: Yea and if it was not sinking then we would have to do repairs to what we could to keep it moving Price: Did your ship ever get any damage? Mullis: No Price: Never had the opportunity to? Mullis: No, we were lucky we didn’t get there in time to go into combat Price: What was your most memorable moment while you were in the Navy? Mullis: I don’t know if I have just one particular memory. We were just being at sea, at one time I was out for 67 days without stepping my foot on land Price: That’s a long time Mullis: And it was quite a while but anyway I think the best moment was when we returned to the states. We got back on Christmas Eve. Price: That’s when you got back, was on Christmas Eve? That’s a good Christmas Mullis: We returned from the Pacific on and we were coming into Portland, Oregon and started up the Columbia River and it got foggy and we had to anchor in the river. And the next day we ate Christmas dinner on the way up to Portland, Oregon. Price: Yea that’s a good Christmas gift to come back home Mullis: Yea that was a memorable moment 2 �Price: That was after the 67 days out at sea? Mullis: Yes that ended the 67 days when we did that. It was an experience that I would have never gotten had I not been drafted. But anyway I was fortune more so then a lot of them that never returned and that happened to the thousands of young men. We all went with the intent on doing what is necessary. And that what the name of the game was, to put a stop to the enemy and do what ever it took we were going to do it. Price: You were ready to do your part Mullis: We sure was Price: How did you stay in touch with your family while you were away and gone so long? Mullis: While we were at sea like that there was no contact with the family Price: Couldn’t send off letters or nothing like that? Mullis: No, no way of sending it letters Price: Yea mail doesn’t run in the center of the ocean Mullis: Cell phones were not invented at that time so we just had to wait until we got back to port and so our families didn’t know where we were or what we were doing or if we were. Price: Just left wondering Mullis: That happened for many men no just me. But that happened to a lot of people, but it was an experience. I was 18 years old when I went in and when I was discharged I had already turned 20 so I was in there roughly two years. During that time I had to grow up, I had to grow up in hurry. I was assigned to things on the ship that I can look back now and say I cant believe that an 18 year old young boy as assigned to something like that. But somebody had to do it, everybody was assigned to something but at one time I had 6 men under me and if I had made one mistake it would have killed every one of them. And I thought at 18 years old with that kind of responsibility you cant stay young forever, you have to grow up and do what you have to do.. But there will never be another war like WW2. Price: I hope not Mullis: All the stuff they have now to work with, it would be a lot different. They have all this unmanned drones that they send over and no body we be at risk. But During WW2 everybody just did what they had to 3 �Price: How was the conditions on the boat, like your room and food? Mullis: We had good food, the work on the ship was fine and everybody did there part and we would cruise right along and do what we had to Price: What your most interested place you stopped at while you were in the military Mullis: I enjoyed going through the Panama Cannel Price: Yea I bet that was pretty cool Mullis: But that was a beautiful place that we passed through the locks and went on out to the Pacific side. That’s some beautiful country through there. It was something I would never have gotten to do had I not been in the military and so there were some good points that went along with the bad Price: Did you have a girlfriend when you went into the military Mullis: No I was not dating anyone regular so I didn’t worry about that. I hadn’t met my wife yet, that came afterwards. Price: What did you do to entertain yourselves on the boat while you had to work? Mullis: Well most time we was having to work, and stand watch and all that kind of stuff and out there at sea we were on 4 hours off 4 hours. That was the norm on the ship Price: All day long? Mullis: Yea all day on 4 off 4 Price: So you had to get your sleep in those 4 hours off? Mullis: Yea and part of the time when we were off during the day we had to work. Doing cleaning and repairs and that kind of stuff. Then you got back on another 4 then hopefully you had time to sleep on that next 4 off at night. That gets kind of old after a while. On 4 off 4. But you can accustomed to it and go with it. That’s about all you can do at that point Price: Yea you can t get out and leave Mullis: No you can’t walk off and say im going home, that wouldn’t work Price: Do you recall the day your service ended? 4 �Mullis: Oh yea I got my discharge at Little Creek Virginia and was ready to come home. It was kind of let down when you got home. You done with all that you had been doing for two years and then all the sudden you were out with nothing to do. So after being drafted out of high school I went back and finished my senior year in high school Price: So you weren’t even graduated when you were drafted? Mullis: No I was just 3 months into my senior year when I got drafted so when I got my discharge two years later I went back to finish high school. Because if I was going to go any further I was going to have to have it, the 12th grade education Price: Was the weird going back to high school after being out for 2 years? Mullis: No I enjoyed it Price: A lot better than being on a boat Mullis: Well yea I was 2 years older than the other boys there and I had a pretty good time Price: I bet, counting your blessing being back home Mullis: Oh yea very true. Price: What did you do after you finished school? Mullis: I got me and job and went to work Price: What kind of work were you doing? Mullis: I was working in a cabinet shop, worked there a while then went on to construction building buildings of various kinds. Price: Were you able to use many of your experiences from the military for work Mullis: Not really, only to just do you job and do it well Price: Do you still keep up with anybody you were in the war with? Mullis: Yes, well I did. Two or three men and they all died now. One man he and I were in Miami at the same time in the same barracks and he was from Elkin, NC and I got so tired of being there at Miami that one day I told him I'm going to navel headquarters and volunteering for sea duty and he said your not and I said watch me. So I went in and told them what I wanted, they gave me a card that said be a pier 8 tomorrow morning at 9:00am for muster and I went back out and he said what you get and I showed him. He said wait right here and went in and came back out with the same thing. We were 5 �together the rest of the time on the ship and he died about 5 years ago from cancer. We would visit each other and call back and forth on the phone and keep up close until, I hated to lose him but after spending 2 years with him he was like a brother to me. So it changed my life but I hope for the better Price: If there is anything else you would like to share then Mullis: Nothing important, just one of those services we had to do and we did it. Price: Are you in any veteran’s organization or anything like that? Mullis: No, the only thing now is that I'm old enough for V.A. I get my medication from them. I’m 86 now so that puts me on up there. I plan on being around for a while Price: I know you have always been around since I’ve been here( He is my neighbor) Price: If that’s all you have to say then Mullis: That pretty well covers it, nothing dramatic but I just went and served Price: Yea went and did what you had to do Mullis: And I don’t regret having to go Price: Yea that’s good. Got some good experiences about of it 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/93ee69776efa2582c2bc77a93e718d56.mp3 42a9587a5dc9ebb15e1d7906c7dc9d82 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 26.2 KB 14.4 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Navy Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) 3rd Class Petty Officer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Price; Matthew Mullis; Melvin Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Price, Matthew Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Mullis, Melvin Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 6 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:15:44 Date digitized 2/6/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 362b90f27f2c5fb32154bb4388711f09 42a9587a5dc9ebb15e1d7906c7dc9d82 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Mullis_Melvin_20121014_transcript_M 5018_Mullis_Melvin_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Melvin Mullis [October 14, 2012 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Price, Matthew Mullis, Melvin Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Melvin Mullis served as a 3rd class petty officer in the Navy during WWII. He served aboard the USS Yaupon where he worked on damage control for the ship. He did not see any combat and returned to the States on Christmas Eve after two months aboard the ship. He said he couldn't communicate with his family at all because "mail doesn't run in the center of the ocean." Subject The topic of the resource Mullis, Melvin Veterans World War, 1939-1945 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews 1944-46 3rd class petty officer Bainbridge damage control draft Navy USS Yaupon WWII https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b70d691be8511025dc46bd8cd3986a53.pdf 8351f6d5cb81151c10f8946c9cb25dfa PDF Text Text Andrew Nicolaysen Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Eric Nicolaysen U.S. Army 1956-1958 Cold War (Korea) October 14, 2012 Andrew Nicolaysen: Okay, so my name is Andrew Nicolaysen, and for the record, what is your name? Erik Nicolaysen: Erik Nicolaysen Andrew: And we’re conducting this interview over the phone. I’m in Boone, North Caroline and you’re in Chappaqua, New York. Erik: Correct Andrew: And it is the 14th of October 2012. Erik: Okay Andrew: …When and where were you born? Erik: February 8th, 1933. I was born in Mt. Kisco, New York. Andrew: Okay, and where did you, or what…branch of the military did you serve in? Erik: I served in the US Army Andrew: Was that active duty or National Guard? Erik: Both Andrew: Did you serve in active duty first? Erik: No, what I did is I…joined the… I actually joined the reserves, not the National Guard. I…the New Jersey…reserve division…When…New Jersey while I was attending Rutgers University…and over the 3 years that I served with the reserve unit…I made corporal…meanwhile I was also tracking with the ROTC at college…and I took a commission upon graduation from college…in 1956…and got a promotion while I was in duty and ended up leaving the service as a…as a 1st lieutenant. I then spent some time with a signal core company in Ossining, New York. But then they were disbanded about a year after I got out of the service. …I then spent about 6 months working with a medical unit and was stationed up…up near West Point. On the…eastern side of the Hudson…a medical evacuation units, because they were short officers…and then I…at that point, since they had full, they had official medically trained officers in, so I was superfluous to them and went to the…ready reserve. And stayed with the 1 �Andrew Nicolaysen ready reserve until I got an honorable discharge and all told I spent about 11 years in the service in one connection or the other. Andrew: Do you remember why you joined the military? Erik: …I just felt there was a duty, there was also a case too that the…draft was in effect at that point, most people were…or a significant number of people were getting drafted so I figured I was gonna go no matter what…and…I decided that if I was gonna go, I’d prefer to go as an officer. ….and I was studying engineering, and signal core went well with the engineering so I decided to…to…join the signal core unit at Rutgers University. Andrew: When did you first go to Korea? Erik: I went to Korea in late 56, stayed there through to the beginning of 58. Andrew: And what did you do there? Erik: I was assigned to the 51st signal battalion, and my first job was battalion motor pool officer. We were responsible for the…secondary level of maintenance…on the battalion vehicles. We had somewhere between 5 and 600 vehicles of assorted types: deuce and a half, tractor-trailers, ¾ tons, jeeps…and…we then…and the normal preliminary maintenance was done with each company, but then the major overhauls…were done by us and then if there was a real major job the vehicle was transferred to the ordnance department that did the overhaul, but generally…probably 90 to 95% of the work on the vehicles was done at the battalion level. Andrew: Were you… Erik: …then I got…after a while I was transferred…from that to a radio teletype platoon, which was responsible for…radio teletype communications…between ICOR headquarters and all the way down to Busan. …and then I…I finished…my last month or so of being in charge of the…the maintenance unit that took care of the…generators and….welding equipment to smaller equipment of that nature. And I was in charge of running that…operation for the last month or so before I was discharged. Andrew: How did you end up in the motor pool if you were a…signal officer? Erik: …because when I…got there they looked at…our private work, and I had worked on the assembly line at General Motors. So there were 3 of us who were lieutenants who arrived at the same time…and the other 2 were assigned to line companies. By the way, I was trained in microwave equipment, and the nearest microwave equipment was in Hawaii. But when we arrived the…other 2 officers were assigned to line companies, basically stringing wire and things of that nature. And I was assigned the headquarters company because I had worked on the assemble line at General Motors during the summer, and therefore they thought I knew something about…trucks. Luckily I had a sergeant who knew what he was doing. Much more so than I did, that was for sure. 2 �Andrew Nicolaysen Andrew: …Because you were there after the armistice, what was the nature of the combat that was happening in Korea at the time? Erik: Basically there was no formal combat, but the North Koreans…were, still had a propensity for sneaking through the…DMZ, we were only 10 miles south of the…DMZ in Uijeongbu, Korea, and we were 10 miles south of the DMZ so…our line companies, who were generally out…doing a lot of…small…squads stringing along wire and things of that nature. They were working behind the…sneaking through the…front lines or they would come south, even around the…water. Even to the east and west coasts, and therefore there were certain instances…of…attacks by them on…isolated units…although it was more a nuisance than anything formal because…the activities during the Korean War were such that…that the South Koreans hated the North Koreans with a passion. And the first…Korean or…farmer who would spot these guys would immediately run to the nearest police or army station and report ’em so…although they did pull us…to movement into the field on occasion and stuff of that nature, they never lasted very long and don’t…to the best of my knowledge, there were few if any prisoners taken. Andrew: What were some of your most memorable experiences, while you were in the military? Erik: It was a job like anything else, I mean, that…you know, I could remember…when I was in the…still in college, I went to Camp Gordon for summer. The other 2 summers that I was in, I went to…Camp Drum with the reserve unit…but I mean, that was mainly just training. The entire time we were there, we were being taught the equipment…small unit…activity for a supply unit or a support unit rather than a, you know, combat infantry… Probably the thing that sticks with me the most was …qualification with weapons for the entire battalion and we had about…we had about, I think about 1800 enlisted men…and then we had about 6 or 700 Korean troops that were attached…and basically we had to qualify ‘till there was one captain, and myself and another lieutenant, and we worked…for about 3 or 4 weeks, I’m trying to remember now, but…qualifying everyone on their individual weapons and then we had…their table of organization called for half a dozen .30 calibers, we had…oh maybe half a dozen .50 calibers that were mounted on the top of the…deuce and a halfs when they had a ring to fire with them, and then we had some bazookas…and…we had 1 or 2 recoilless rifles. So basically we to…you know, talk through firing for the entire battalion and then individual weapons and then we had to…do the crew served weapons. Andrew: Did you make any…close friendships and relationships while you were in the Army? Erik: Yeah I did, but…because of my age now, I think all of them are dead. I know 2 guys I was closest to…were dead and I think most of the rest of them that…I was in at that time are also deceased. Andrew: Has your service and experiences affected your life? Like, continuing on? Erik: Oh, I think it made for a little bit better organization…you know, follow through and not put things off…you know, that carried over, I did…I did do constructions projects after I got back out, In addition to working in the ...insurance agency. I built…5 or 6 commercial buildings 3 �Andrew Nicolaysen and half a dozen homes and remodeled other homes…and that required considerable organization to do that as a side line, you know. Andrew: Well, I think that’s about everything I need, unless there’s anything you would like to add. Erik: …not really…you know, there was…I enjoyed the period of time…I remember…one thing I do remember about Korea was the coldness, when we went out in the field…wind used to come out of Siberia, and…temperatures below 0…were not at all unusual and…I can remember crawling under trucks with the old blow torches to release the brakes where they had frozen overnight, and stuff of that nature, so we could move the vehicles. And…for those kinds of things, everybody pitched in, officers, noncoms…you know…you know, If you wanted to move the vehicles and get out of there, everybody did what they could, so…it was…but I do remember how God awful cold it got. Andrew: Okay, well, I think that…about finishes it up. 4 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/41cb084ed42d8679e9969932f4a024b3.mp3 fd3c8ae26e98f363cd41cb0dd388f1b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 126 KB 11.6 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) 1st Lieutenant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nicolaysen; Andrew Nicolaysen; Erik Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Nicolaysen, Andrew Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Nicolaysen, Erik Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:40 Date digitized 2/6/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code fe82e370cdc15928e9fe8095315af49e fd3c8ae26e98f363cd41cb0dd388f1b8 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Nicolaysen_Erik_20121014_transcript_M 5018_Nicolaysen_Erik_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Erik Nicolaysen [October 14, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nicolaysen, Andrew Nicolaysen, Erik Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Eric Nicolaysen enlisted in the US Army reserves in 1956, served in the Cold War, and spent some time in Korea. He did not see any combat during his time in the military. Subject The topic of the resource Nicolaysen, Erik Veterans Cold War United States Interviews 1956-58 51st signal battalion Cold War Eric Nicolaysen General Motors Korea radio teletype reserves US Army https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e209cd5a814dfd1a6a900dcb62260119.pdf 717a3959d8d75f9290520089849b1081 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Doug Patton U.S. Army 2002-2006 Afghanistan October 15, 2012 Austin Getzelman: All right todays date is October 14th the time is 4:51 p.m. My name is Austin Getzelman with Appalachian State University and I am here with Doug Patton: Doug Patton Getzelman: And what is your birthdate Patton: December 19th 1980 Getzelman: All right, well I'm sitting here with Doug Patton and what made you want to join the military and how did you pick what branch you wanted to join? Patton: I ended up joining right after September 11th, I ended up doing all my paper work and submitting stuff because it takes, a lot of people don’t know, it takes a while to get in to the military. Once you say I want to go you see a recruiter and paperwork and all the hoops they make you jump through. It takes six months or so to get in but it was after September 11th and I finally got in, I went to basic training in 2002. So that's kinda the reason I joined and about the time that I joined so everything else kinda fell into place after that. Getzelman: Had you ever thought about joining before September 11th? Or was that kind of the big kick? Patton: Not really, I just kinda...it was motivational I guess at the time so I wanted to help out. Getzelman: Do you, when you first started up in training, do you remember any, a lot of guys who had just kinda really been hit by September 11th who were in there with you? Patton: Yeah, I would say just about all of them around that time were, and people its funny when you go to basic training you have just people from all walks of life ya know from foreign countries. I had a guy with me that was from Puerto Rico, people come in from everywhere and everybody was there kinda for the same reason. Getzelman: Do you have any particular like memorable experiences from basic training that you would want to share? Patton: There's all kinds of stuff but nothing really, you know, I guess story worthy. We went, my basic training was in Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and you would think of Oklahoma as being kinda warm being the north part of Texas but we went in the winter and it got down 1 �to like two degrees I think when we did our field training so it was pretty cold. I just remember it being just unbearably cold sometimes. But ya know, it was fun, it was something you definitely when you get done you're proud of it and you enjoy looking back on it knowing you did it, went through it. Getzelman: Do you still have a lot of connection with the guys you were in basic training with? Patton: A few, not many, because everybody just kinda goes there own separate ways when they get out but I try and stay in touch with about four of them that I know Getzelman: Do you remember what were some more of the difficult parts of starting up basic training? Do you have any previous experience ya know doing some of the physical and what not? Patton: The physical was pretty hard but it ya know, you body kinda adapts, you don’t think it does but the more you do ya know its almost like it becomes less hard but your doing the same things you started out doing. Your body just kinda adapts and overcomes some of the injuries and the pain and stuff like that. Getzelman: And you said you were stationed out in Oklahoma? Patton: Yeah, for basic. Getzelman: Okay, where did they move you after that? Did you go straight overseas or anywhere after basic? Patton: No, I went to advanced individual training they call it AIT, and that was in Aberdeen Maryland so that was a pretty neat place, they did a lot of weapons testing out there. Shooting bombs and stuff all the time out there. So it was pretty great. Getzelman: Got any cool weapons stories from out there? Patton: Not from out there, all their stuff is pretty much classified; they do kinda like R&D (Research and Development) for new weapons and stuff. Stuff that they'll test out. They'll do it kinda behind closed doors, ya know they got their own secret test facility up there, but it's pretty cool. Getzelman: So from there, when did you actually get the word that you would be shipped out? Patton: From there I went to Fort Drum New York, and that was my duty station. I got assigned to Fort Drum Tenth Mountain Division, and first day I got there I found out I was getting deployed. They send you to a like a reception battalion when you check in and everybody goes there and then they find where they're going, which assignment and which company they're going to. By the end of the first day I had somebody sponsor, 2 �which is my platoon sergeant, he'd come up and say hey ya know you're going to 514 maintenance company and ya know they're already deployed. They were leaving at the time they left and I left a week after and met up with them over there. Getzelman: So pretty much the day you got there they let you know, you were going over. Patton: Yeah Getzelman: Now where exactly was it that you were sent out to? Patton: Our base was in Kuwait, we went, we actually stayed at three different bases. It was probably about ten miles south of the DMZ, ya know the line from Iraq. And we stayed at Camp Wolf, we stayed at Camp Arifjan, and we stayed at Camp Doha, and we'd run like wrecker missions stuff like that. We would pick up equipment and bring it back, damaged equipment, and we'd fix it and take it back out to ya know infantry guys. So, I was a mechanic in the Army. Getzelman: So you were more on the mechanical side than anything with on front lines or anything like that? Patton: Yeah, yeah more or less. We would do missions and stuff but it more along the lines of picking up equipment from those guys and meeting up with them, trading stuff out and stuff like that. Getzelman: Cool, Cool. Now when you were serving overseas did you find it difficult to kinda keep in touch with your friends and family back home? Patton: Not really, I mean it's obviously its different it’s a little harder. But I had bought a phone, an international cell phone from over there and I was able to put minutes on it and call. So I had it on me pretty much all the time, it just got expensive. We also had the Internet cafe where you could send emails and stuff like that so it wasn't too bad. But its just more inconvenient than here but its not, ya know, its what you expect when you're that far away from home. Getzelman: Now while you were serving, did you get to travel anywhere else overseas besides Kuwait? Patton: Yeah, got to go to Germany, we stopped in Italy; I actually spent a couple days in Germany. But we stopped in Italy, we stopped in Ireland. Ya know, on the flight over to the Middle East, that was pretty neat, seeing all the countryside that was pretty cool. Got to hang out in Germany for a few days that was pretty cool, that's a pretty country as well. 3 �Getzelman: Now how would you say your overall military experience has influenced or changed your thinking about conflicts in general? I know you said when you joined it had a lot to do with the events of September 11th. Patton: Once you join you kinda see, what’s the best way to put it...you kinda see things on a bigger picture. Until you put yourself in that position, ya know, it’s easy to watch something on TV and say, why aren't they doing this? Why is this happening? Why are we doing this? But then when you see how many different things how many different jobs people have, like in the military for example ya know there's, ya know the way the reason we do things isn't as cut and dry as black and white as we think it would be and once you go over to another country you see how other people live and you kind of figure out the militaries role in all this. Your like well okay, I kinda see why we couldn't just do this or couldn't just do that, ya know there's more involved but it kinda opens your eyes, ya know to everything. Getzelman: Being over in Kuwait, how did people kinda respond to you guys being over there when you first arrived? Did you have a lot of interactions? Patton: Yeah, it’s weird. Cause you'll go down the road over there and you're obviously in a military vehicle with weapons and you'll pass a car load of kids and they'll give you thumbs up and they'll smile at ya and then the next car will be middle aged man or something and they just look at ya like they wanna shoot ya. You know so it's a little weird, it puts you on edge, especially with some of the stuff that went on in Kuwait, there's different cells of these groups that they fight a little bit of everywhere so it's weird, it's different. Getzelman: Does that change your perspective a lot seeing kinda how, here like you said it's on a much smaller scale how we see things. Ya know people in over countries they see it completely different. So you definitely get ya know, a view of both worlds. Did that kind of change your opinions seeing how they see things opposed to us? Patton: Well as far as that goes you see kinda where they're coming from in a sense of how they were raised how they live, all their ya know...but its still some of the things ya know, some of the things they do. I still don’t understand why they do that. You kinda see where they're coming from but it doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just a difference of opinion. Getzelman: Was it a bit of a culture shock to kinda see there, what they think as norms opposed to us? Patton: Yeah, oh yeah. And just the country itself with regards to just the layout and the geography of the country is totally different. When you fly in, you just see sand, that's all you see. There's no, there's not a lot of trees just palm trees, there's no color, there's really no blue sky’s. There's sun, no clouds...so its just bright and sand all the time there's no real contrast...So and ya know at least over here you have rainy days and a difference of environment changes. It doesn't over there it's just the same thing. 4 �Getzelman: Was that a pretty easy adjustment to make, going from being on all these bases over in the states, and then immediately once you get to New York its like, hey you're going over to Kuwait. Patton: Yeah, it kinda puts things in perspective because you kinda plan and you train to deal with it and you're like alright well when this time comes, you in the mindset of when it comes...But now you're like, now I'm going so you kinda scale back and you're like alright well now what I really need to do is kinda start planning Getzelman: How do you mentally, how do you prepare yourself from going base to base and then you finally get to kinda to home base and what not and then as soon as you get there they say alright you're going overseas? Patton: It's...traveling around here, it goes back to kinda you're on edge in that country. I think its worse before you leave because you don’t know what to expect the kinda fear of the unknown to me was worse than when you're over there. When you're over there you're in a tense situation but at least you kind of know how to prepare for it. You know what’s going on, once you're there and you see what you're working with for lack of better words. But I was probably more nervous here leaving just because you don't know what part of the country you're going to, they don't tell you anything. They just tell you you're going to this country, so with that being said, you're like wow...I could be downtown Baghdad, I could be in ya know, Afghanistan...you don’t know yet, the orders are so general when you leave you get another set, when you get on the plane so we actually got orders for another country and that's why it was kinda weird for me...I was like wow! We’re going here and then they redirected us, which were kinda weird, but we ended up in Kuwait, we got orders for Afghanistan. So.... which isn't much better. Getzelman: Did you know anything specific about what your orders were supposed to be for Afghanistan? Patton: No, like I said they're really vague because they try to keep it as secretive as they can before you get in country. And then they'll say alright you're here because this is your mission and they give you basically a job description of what you're supposed to do and my company was like a mechanics a maintenance company and that was our job, our job was to basically take care of three maybe four infantry battalions that would bring their equipment to us and it was our job our goal. Getzelman: Did you ever have anything where the infantry companies would be on the front line and you guys would have to go in and do any sort of maintenance while they're... Patton: Not during any fighting, we would have to go up there and trade stuff out and see a lot of times, what people don’t really realize I think is there’s, there really wasn't a whole bunch of fighting. It was more or less random firefights here and there. And that’s 5 �what a lot of those guys were dealing with, because you had no real army vs. army fighting it was just this group of ten people with rifles. Getzelman: So it was much more smaller conflicts than on a larger scale? Patton: Yeah, yeah...and like I said it just, you kinda get used to that after a while too...you can get into a situation and see things are about to happen. So you kinda prepare for it but like I said its totally different than being around here. Getzelman: How much has serving in the military affected your life since you've been out? What sort of positive things did you take away that maybe you could share with future generation who are looking to enlist? Patton: Positive things.... For me the positive would be, being able to say that you know you got the experience of being under pressure and having to make decisions that directly affect peoples lives, kinda like being here (Doug is a firefighter)...this is on a lot smaller scale, its kinda that scenario where I feel comfortable in a really rough situation know I can handle situations and my thought process sis pretty cleat...just the experience of having that and that and the discipline of things just being responsible for yourself just small stuff just taking acre of yourself just looking after your own finances your own everything. Your equipment your gear that kind of thing I see with other people ya know.... anybody that wasn’t in the military you can kinda pick up on little things like that...that and the physical end of it trying to stay in shape, stuff like that...there's a few positives a few negatives but I wouldn’t change it. That’s one of the things I kinda ask myself sometimes is would I change it if I could go back and ya know had the option to not go and I'd go because like I said there's so much you get from it ya know it ill make you a better person a stronger person Getzelman: Do you think if the events of September 11th had never happened do you think you still would have joined? Patton: I don’t know that’s hard to say, probably not there again that was a lot of the reason I joined. Some of the reason I joined was because I was 21 and I kinda wanted to get out get away for a little bit and I needed that, that kinda helped me...ya know everyone when they're younger they wanna get out wanna leave town, they don’t wanna be here but the more you see of the word the more you realize that wow, I had a really awesome deal there, it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was. Kinda going back to third world country stuff its once you see how other people live you really appreciate what you have and it makes the problems that you have really not that big of a deal things that you usually stress about and that’s one of the things that I kinda well enjoy I guess is the ability to say wow I appreciate small things now that’s a good thing that’s positive Getzelman: If you could take one phrase from your entire service how would you describe it to someone else in just a few words. What was the best thing you took out of it? 6 �Patton: I would just say it's a wild ride cause you do so much stuff in such a small amount of time and you know be here one day here another doing this and that, and you got to be able to roll with it ya know be flexible. That’s another positive thing I can pull out of it too. 7 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c732483dd4af78ca58e8ba84a2cee9d4.mp3 35a9d983d7e335afdb2a7524c923805c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 58.2 KB 41.4 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Getzelman; Austin Patton; Doug Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Getzelman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Patton, Doug Interview Date 10/15/2012 Number of pages 7 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:18:07 Date digitized 2/6/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 1365302d69f6a0db2ee336b949752c1d 35a9d983d7e335afdb2a7524c923805c Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Patton_Doug_20121015_transcript_M 5018_Patton_Doug_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doug Patton [October 15, 2012 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Getzelman, Austin Patton, Doug Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Doug Patton joined the military after September 11th and entered basic training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. After basic, he went to Advanced Individual Training (AIT) and shortly after was deployed to Kuwait. He says there wasn't much fighting there, only "random firefights." Subject The topic of the resource Patton, Doug Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Afghanistan AIT Fort Sill Oklahoma Kuwait September 11th https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4a928b1ec8b3d7fd6da4d7cdbed5e15b.pdf fe875733014d9fe367de00274fd3b28a PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Franklin Omsted Pitzer U.S. Army 1950s-1970s Vietnam War November 2, 2012 Haley Kearns: Today is November 2, 2012. I am Haley Kearns and I will be interviewing Frank Pitzer for my American Military History Class at Appalachian State University. You ready to begin the interview? Franklin Omsted Pitzer: Yes ma’am. I guess I can start from basics, like Haley…Haley said I’m Franklin Omsted Pitzer named after my maternal grandfather, Franklin Omsted Baxter and … I grew up most…uh…most of my twelve years in California and then we went to what was capitol district New York, the Albany area. I uh graduated from high school there. I had…a concept of going to college, but didn’t go because Korea was there and then all of that that followed, so I went in and had a…was gonna enlist but patriotism was very high and I was a young kid and bottom enlist, so this being so, all of the branches were plum full, you know? First thing was try the Marine Corp and then the Navy, and then all the other branches and I wound up volunteering for the…ah…draft. It took three months for them to draft me, went from induction in Albany to...ah…to a packet in Fort Dix, New Jersey, to my basic training at…ah…Fort Riley with the Tenth Mountain Division…ah…we happened to be the right number to fatten out the Tenth Mountain Division, so…uh…that was what happened to all of us we joined in a packet, we wound up at Fort Riley, we rotated with the Tenth Mountain Division under…ah…the operation gyroscope with the entirety, sent units…uh…to Hamburg, Germany…Germany and…ah…was lucky enough to be in a unique situation which was sort of unusual. Usually you went in, you took basic, you got shipped somewhere to another unit and …uh…ah… you know by the time you had a stripe on your arm or something you had been in several other units, you know like that? I found that I like the military very much and so…ah…I had gotten married just before I went into the military. I felt…felt that that was the…the situation being is if I didn’t like the military I’d come home and stoke the home fires. Well, I found that I like the military. I stoked the home fires because home was anywhere Uncle Sam sent me. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: So they initially sent me to Hamburg, Germany and I had a full tour there with the Tenth Mountain Division. I was…ah…started out taking basic at Fort Riley, you know like that, and then I was with …ah…I became a Box Sargent with…and then a Sargent E5 and I was with…with communications and so we were a different, rather unique group in that we were very proud of what we were, but we were soldiers. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And so naturally took basic, qualified with your weaponry every…every year…ah…kept your military subjects at the bases and wore my uniform, I think I was so proud I probably could have busted the buttons if they…if they would have popped. And so I stayed in the…with 1 �the…ah…with the 85th infantry…ah…and went to the rank of Sargent, and I know a lot of people thought I was crazy but I took what they called a burst of six, my first enlistment it was six years. And the military was to me the culmination of a young man’s desires to serve his country. So I was extremely fortunate. I went to the rank of Sargent like I said and I …ah…went along until it was in…in the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when the …ah… there was a lot of turmoil in the military with people getting out and coming back in and trying to decide what they would do, etc., etc. So I enlisted for six years and with that enlistment of six years, I …ah…looked the Army over and said this is where I wanted to be. I had…ah…a lot of background in mechanics so…ah…they had an old Kohler…ah…Kohler generator that needed to be over…ah…overhauled, rebuilt, and I had a platoon leader, a young lieutenant and he said “I have this engine, does anybody know?” And I walked up to him and I didn’t even know how to appropriately report to him. And Sargent Brewer was a tremendous Sargent and he looked down at me and he says “Sargent come to brace,” so I snapped to attention and I apologized to Lieutenant Chetty and from then I knew I was his number one boy so simply because I had overhauled Valley Chomers, farm hauls, John Deeres, Remmele ...ah…Kohler…Kohler generators and everything, just had a good mechanical background. So, went ahead and…ah…became the power generation person and with that came a Corporal stripe, and as you progress along and confidence…confidence is building yourself and your fellow troops and the whole morale of the unit just seems to cement together, and hey this is where it’s at. And so with that mentality, like I said I took a burst of six. And when that happened they needed a Motor Sargent, and, well, most of what I was working on (laughs) had to do Peaky ten to twelve inch tires, you know, the…the only difference between that and a motorized vehicle that you pushed around and one that drove itself around was the transmission and so on and so forth. But just being mechanical and having worked around all this a lot of my life before I went in the service, why, it just expanded and next thing you knew, why, rotated back out of Germany and …ah…(coughs) when we went back over to Germany I was a Motor Sargent in an artillery unit. And…from there I considered myself very lucky because the unit that I went to, we were responsible for…ah…for preposition…ah…firing positions of part of NATO on the ….Neurenb…no, the Frankfurt…ah…Nuremburg Autobahn. And…ah…well, what it meant when we had an alert was we were…were trained that at such and such a time if the alert sounded we deployed to our vehicles and the vehicles deployed to a given spot, and we would be established there until the drill was over with or the threat if there…one existed was…taken care of and we could return back to our unit and went along til the next alert. And we had monthly alerts which was all part of NATO, and…ah…so I progressed from being just a…typical, very proud American soldier to thinking, well, hey, I could really enjoy this service. And so the next thing I knew I had applied…I had applied with Northern Area Command under Seventh Army to be a Warrant Officer. And…being a young Sargent and fortunately promoted and people knew me well…ah…I went to the board and satisfactory passed the board and so I come home a wobbly one, which is what they call a (laughs) a Warrant Officer First Class. And…ah…I got sworn in under General Norris and General Norris was a…was the...ah…Seventh Infantry Division…ah…the Commander Infantry…Seventh Infantry Division Artillery Commander. And…ah…I’ll never forget how good it felt to walk outside and nobody knew whether I was a hundred and twenty years old or less than five minutes with…carrying my bar. And there is a tradition in the army…is…and I hope it still goes on, I don’t know, I haven’t been near it and made that inquiry, but the first person who salutes you, you bring him around in front of me and you sort of like “hey, troop, post yourself,” and so that gentleman, or the young…young Private, 2 �or PFC as it usually were would be…would be just thinking “Oh my God, what have I done?” And so you just proceed to make him feel like he’s the lowest thing other than the dirt that he’s standing on, and it’s all part of you “chewing out” the first troop that salutes you as an officer. So here I was…ah…a W1, hardly know how to put on my bars and…and this young PFC walked by me and that’s when…naturally enough if it moves and it has a bar on it you salute it, so he snapped to and…and he…and it was in the afternoon, just after noon, and he “Good afternoon, Sir!” And he started to walk on, just as would be customary, and I whipped around and I said…like I said I told him to post in front of me and I asked him, “Do you know what you’ve just done?” And my gosh, you know, I guess he thought he had done…really done something terrible, so when I explained the situation to him he burst out in a big smile and I said “Son, this will probably be the first and the last time an officer will ever hug you unless it’s in your family” and I said “Thank you, you have made my day.” And I…I handed him the dollar and he looked up at me and Sargent Major were…you know and I was…was…in the Division…in the Division Artillery Headquarters door and he smiled and he said “Well done Mr. Pitzer.” And that’s what they call Warrants regardless of what they are…W1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on, they expanded the ranks and …ah…he said “I’m looking forward to seeing you in the motor pool.” And I said “Sargent Major are always welcomed in my motor pool and if you got any problem that it can’t be fixed, I’ll personally fix it.” And he said “that won’t be necessary.” He said “I’m sure you will have a staff ready to go in…in quick order.” And so with that I started my career as a Warrant Officer and moved through the ranks. And I retired as a W4 from Fort Bragg (clears throat) Fort Bragg…ah…I was what they called a Post Corp, Maintain Chief. But I had…ah…skirmishes here and there and elsewhere, primarily Vietnam and …ah…other than that…other than being grateful that I was not wounded…ah…I must admit that I was always walking with a loaded weapon and I was always ready to use it because that’s how I…that’s how I was trained and besides being a Motor Officer and a Warrant Officer I knew these young men that worked under me and to this day I can remember many of their names and everything and I told myself I will never lose one of America’s best Kearns: Uh, huh Pitzer: to some stupid stunt that I pulled. And by that I meant whatever it could have been, that I could have contributed to that. And I was lucky enough to work for Special Forces at Duc Loc which is…ah…was part of Fifth Special Forces. I carried a coin that they gave me as part of the…ah…as being part of that team…ah…I was nom…nominated for a…a Silver Star but it got lost in the normal…ah…MOA which is military ordinary mail. Things get lost and so what? I know I was nominated, I know I served with some of the finest that America ever put in line. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: I’m…very proud that…that when we were stationed in Fort George G. Meade that we were responsible for riot control and etc. I did…show how…what a fool I might have been in that when we came back from Vietnam, we were going to the supply area and being reissued things and I was flipped a flak jacket and …and I threw it back to the…the supply Sargent and said “Why do I need this…blank thing?” (Kearns laughs) And he said “Because you’ll have to wear a flak jacket if you go to our nation’s capital.” I said “Like blank the day that I wear a flak jacket in my nation’s capital it’ll be a free fl…flier zone.” And unbeknownst to me and many 3 �other people that when new people came into their unit the then commanding general of Fort G. Meade more or less perused as they went past the Supply Sargent and he said “Pick that up mister.” And that…I whipped around and there stood a Two Star General and said “You got your wish.” He said “You’ll be responsible for the hard column which means tanks and heavy guns and things. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And…ah…when they had riots they just placed a regiment of…ah…infantry from the 82nd Airborne and it would go up and be...be housed in the…ah…commerce building which looks out at the Capitol and my mouth got me loaded up that when it and if such a situation happened that they had to deploy to secure the ellipse that I would be responsible for six Sheridans and six heavy tanks forty-eight A1s, medium tanks and…and that was it. The situation never came about, but I considered myself very lucky to have been part of…ah…of a team that would have defended our Capitol if for whatever reason and for whatever unfortunate circumstance American citizens or whatever turned against and rioted in our Capitol. So…ah…that…that was it. And that happened to me twice when I went back to…ah…to that area of…assignment, but I had twenty-four years in the service as a Warrant Officer…ah…I worked with the finest and I…I’m sure that if I had been in the Marine Corps I would have thought that, if I had been in the Navy I would have thought that Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: if I had been in the Air Force, cause there was nothing finer than American fighting men. And I get dewy eyed just thinking about how prepared we are for war and how willing our young men and women are and how many of them are coming back. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: Not…not whole as we would consider it whole but proud of every darn thing they do Kearns: Yeah Pitzer: and every darn thing they’ve did. And so I would say to…anybody it isn’t…it isn’t what you do, it’s who you are, and if you’re an American, you serve your country. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And I see these wonderful young men and women that are going now, off proud and ready to do whatever they have to do, like so many before them did, like I hope I did, and that I might have…have expressed that confidence I’m an American Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: I’m an American fighting man and if there is anything better I haven’t seen it. And so I’m very patriotic. I’m very dedicated to our country, to our veterans. And we’ve all took 4 �our…their place. My father told me about Guadalcanal. He and so many other people have told me about different battles and things and veterans compare notes, you know, and you know we joke about it, and there I was surrounded by ten this and that and ten of that and…and make jokes about the fact that we’ve seen combat. But deep down inside all of us are American and all of us are very proud to be veterans. And no one service does it all by itself, we’re dedicated, we cooperate, we have proven over the years that the American ideal I am an American fighting man is…is…it goes on to the fact that we have integrated our services and you don’t know how wonderful it is when you see…like you’ll see this upcoming Veteran’s Day, Old Glory standing tall, our national colors going down through and men and women marching together to make this a safer, more complete, and God fearing nation that we have been ever since our inception. And I only can say that the young men and women who are in school right now, do the very best you can…scholastically. When you…you go into whatever branch of service it is, be the proudest person that you ever have known to put on that uniform. Serve your country, be able to look down at the little tow heads and rub their heads and say whatever it is you’ll say to them and that they’re so darn proud to be an American you can’t stand it. And let’s keep this country free. Kearns: That’s really good advice. Pitzer: Thank you Kearns: You said that your dad, he served in the military as well? Pitzer: He was a…he was a…an army man and he served at Guadalcanal. Ah…he just told me…never ever forget who you are and where you’re going and that you’re an American and that…that held me in…in stead. And when you…when you look and you stand out there as a Platoon Sargent, when you stand out there as a Platoon Leader, when you stand out there and you’re in formation and there is your Captain, there is your Major, there is your…your Battalion Staff, your Commanding General, you…you really feel good. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And people joke about it, there’s a word…the word that is passed to the command when you see all the troops so beautifully in line and so trim and so true, so exact, walk in front of the reviewing stand and that’s pass and review. I bet your chest grows three inches, you stand six feet tall, and you see your guide arm which is your unit flag and in front of that is our national colors, Old Glory, and that’s it in all her glory. And the…battalion or regimental staff depending on what the size of the operation of review is. And we joke about the…the ah…band being the drum and stumble Corp. I tell you what, when you hear the words pass and review and then the commander of troops, you hear this “Forward harch,” and they step off and there isn’t…there isn’t one foot that isn’t on the ground constantly, just like it’s supposed to be. And every time that…that drum drops, and Old Glory waves, and you go on you say “This is what it’s all about, it’s been worth all the dirt, the mud, the smarty pants Sargent who makes you feel like a monkey,” and then as proud as if you were the whole army itself. That’s…that’s military life. I mean, like I say I was…was a soldier, but had I been a…a marine, a sailor, an Air Force man. Kearns: Mmhmm 5 �Pitzer: Or whatever the branch might have been, I would have still be just as proud. And when you see all your different branches of services on Armed Forces Day and other days of national celebration, pass and review, it makes you so darn proud, you stand there and you cry cause you’re not ashamed, you’re proud. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And you want to let them know that…that this is your country, our country. And that’s all I can say is that being a veteran and having had the pleasure to serve my country, if it ever came to it and God forbid that they take men my age again, I would be out there again. But, you’ve got to be young, you’ve got to be full of vim and vinegar and patriotism to be a good anything, no matter what you are in uniform and this country’s got it. That’s all I can say is Veteran’s Day is…is just another way of saying thank you. And you know you just…just thank the young men and women in uniform, but remember they didn’t get here without mom and dad. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: Mom and dad took their turn and on down through history. As you…as you look back there’s always been a group of dedicated Americans willing to go that extra mile. And that’s what I would leave you with. Kearns: You were talking about the importance of parents, when…when were you born and when did you decide that the military was where you wanted to go, was it something that your parents talked a lot about growing up, patriotism or…? Pitzer: I was March 15, 1935, that’s the old original income tax day. And I can remember so vividly…when Pearl Harbor got struck. I was playing in the mud, in the sand, and running around stubbling my toes, but I had…I was part of an adopted twelve boys, like I told ya. And …and…all the uncles, they got in their cars, two by two, you might say. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And went to Victorville, California and joined a branch of the service. And Aunt Mary, bless her heart, she was a very God fearing, we called her Grandma Bird, Aunt Mary, but she was the matriarch of that…that family unit. And she knew when those boys went in the uniform, she knew when they debarked from the continental United States, she just had that…that feeling…and she gave all twelve boys, she was a twelve gold star mother, but so proud, so God fearing, so glad to have been done her part as a mother. And she was no different than…than any other mother in this world, who ser…served her family, served her country. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And that…that’s…that’s when I became aware that no matter what happened that one day…if I didn’t die before I was old enough to and capable to, I would become an American military man and serve my country. And I just am so grateful that most all of us people that are 6 �like myself feel that way, because there is one thing that you’ll never forget is…is your country. And just because it…it may skip a generation does not mean that you have not served. Kearns: That’s definitely true Pitzer: And this is…this is what makes America so special to me. Is….I have truly lived the American dream. Whatever you might concur or might not concur is the American dream, the American dream to me was being born American, having the right to go to free public school, to pledge allegiance to my flag, to sing our national anthem, and other patriotic songs, and to serve our country both on our own immediate soil and anywhere where our American flag went. And that’s the substance…substance of it. Kearns: Yeah. You said that you were in Germany for a while. Pitzer: Yes Kearns: Where else were you during your service? Pitzer: Ah…Well I got Vietnam…ah…I was on the DMZ in…in Korea…ah…we (laughs) joke about how hard it was to be in…in riot control cause it was from the standpoint of there were Americans who were rioting for what they thought was right and there were those of us in uniform standing there saying that maybe you’re right, but for God’s sakes, don’t ever make the mistake of disgracing your flag, your home, your country. I don’t think there’s a military person that’s ever served in…during the situations when we had our Americans standing in…in a street trying to tell other Americans protest if you must, but remember first and foremost you’re American. And I am…just…just so glad that whatever has happened and whatever will happen that I was born American, Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: I’ve lived American, and that I will die American. Kearns: Yeah…that’s…yeah. You talked about the protesting… Pitzer: Yeah Kearns: You said you talked about the protesting here…happening here, were you informed of it regularly, or was it just more… Pitzer: When I was stationed at Fort George G. Mead and stationed in a unit there, our sole purpose was to deploy and I was in charge…to be in charge of a hard column, the Sheridan tanks, and M40A1 tanks that would, God forbid, we ever had to deploy to our nation’s capital to keep it safe against our own people through ignorance who were protesting what they didn’t fully understand, but had a right to protest. Kearns: Mmhmm 7 �Pitzer: That…I just prayed that I would do what I had to do, but pray that that would never mean that I would have to take an American life in execution of what I was there to do. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And I don’t think I’m any different than any other American that’s ever stood in a…in a riot line or anything else like that because it was not…not what I was doing…what was wrong or was it right, it was American, and what they were doing was American, but we just happened to have (coughs) a different sheet of music that we were marching to. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: In America and only in American can…can you say that. Kearns: You said you served the tail end of the Korean War and during the Vietnam War… Pitzer: I was on the DMZ, I…when I was assigned in Korea during the Cold War, ha ha (coughs) I was in charge of the site that looked up what they called the Wo Chan which was that part of Korea up from Pan Mun Jon where there was a North Korean barracks in the Wo Chan Valley and their…their purpose was if anything ever happened between North and South Korea that they would come across the DMZ. So they were doing their thing and we were doing our thing. And as…I’m sure as proud as I was to be an American and to stand there and tell them as long as you stay up there, we can wave to one another. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: We can be friends. But the day you come across, with a weapon in your hand, discharging as we…you would be required to do. Kearns: Hmm Pitzer: May God forgive me, you are then my enemy. Kearns: Yeah Pitzer: And I tried to tell our people that I was responsible for up there never ever let your guard down, you are an American. Kearns: Did you feel like you were prepared when you headed in to Korea or was it learning on your feet once you got there? Pitzer: No, I…I knew that…that some, one of us in American uniform had to be on the DMZ as they had been ever since the DMZ was established. And to this day I have gone to our nation’s capital ready to prevent riot through what…whatever ignorance or misunderstanding that it may have come about. But I don’t…I don’t regret for one minute my military service. I’m proud of it, 8 �I’m proud of my country, I’m proud of these beautiful young men and women who go on and carry on…and are prepared to do whatever they need to, but they’re still preparing for their future. And they are the young men and women that will become the old men and women who will look onto their grandchildren and their line and say “Been there, done that, I’m an American, I’m very proud.” Kearns: How long were you in the military? How old were you when you joined and how old were you when you… Pitzer: I spent twenty-four years in the service, and I volunteered for the draft and had to wait three months before I could go in because of the…the allocation. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: Ah…I wanted to first join the Marines, well it didn’t take long to find out that there was…this was…I was still in school, but there was…there was such patriotism that all of the quotas were full. Kearns: Mmhmm Pitzer: And like I say, I volunteered for the draft and I waited three months in order to be called to go into the service. And I went into the U.S. Army, I don’t regret it a minute, I’m proud of my service, I’m proud of my country, and when Old Glory flutters in the wind, she flutters there for me and everybody I’ve ever known and ever will know. This is our country. Kearns: Yeah Pitzer: And as a veteran, I don’t regret one moment. And when people will…will say what they will regardless of what they might, it matters not. We are American, we serve our country and by so doing we secure the world for the oncoming generations that have…have no idea how wonderful it is, although some of it is limited to be born free, that…that’s the whole thing. Kearns: Thank you so much for your time. Pitzer: Well, thank you. Kearns: As previously stated, it is November 2, 2012 and I have conducted this interview in High Point, North Carolina for my American Military History Class. Thank you so much Frank for your time. Pitzer: Well, thank you and I thank you for the education you’ve got, the effort you’ve made, and it is the young men and women like you that will keep this nation strong. Kearns: Thank you. Pitzer: Thank you. 9 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/706663b7371b6ea77a20ea548ff5cd8e.MP3 0e0ca3f65d246f46174d1bc9cb7a35b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 65.2 KB 53.4 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Army Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kearns; Haley Pitzer; Franklin Omsted Pitzer Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Kearns, Haley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Pitzer, Franklin Omsted Pitzer Interview Date 11/2/2012 Number of pages 9 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:38:55 Date digitized 2/7/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code a17586674d9b4261a290bea38d189c77 0e0ca3f65d246f46174d1bc9cb7a35b8 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Pitzer_Franklin_20121102_transcript_M 5018_Pitzer_Franklin_20121102_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Franklin Omsted Pitzer [November 2, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kearns, Haley Pitzer, Franklin Omsted Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Franklin Pitzer made a career in the army and served for over 20 years. He trained at Fort Riley as a part of the 10th Mountain Division and was first deployed to Hamburg. He had many jobs in the army, such as motor sergeant and warrant officer. Subject The topic of the resource Pitzer, Franklin Omsted Veterans United States Interviews 10th Mountain Division Fort Riley Franklin Pitzer Hamburg Motor Sergeant US Army Vietnam Warrant Officer https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b887e3850b5b6488106359b106d28c7c.pdf 680fa470135551dfd46942395954531e PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Larry Richardson U.S. Navy 1968-1974 Vietnam War October 11, 2012 Trey Pitts: This is Trey Pitts in Lincolnton, North Carolina the date is October 11, 2012 and I am interviewing Larry Richardson. Okay first question is: Where were you born? Larry Richardson: Charlotte, North Carolina Pitts: In what year? Richardson: 1949 Me: When you got into the services were you drafted? Or did you volunteer? Richardson: My dad was in the Navy, during WWII, in the Pacific, my older brother was in the Navy on riverboats in ‘Nam, and had nowhere to go, I graduated High School, my plan was to join the Navy, so that is what I did, in 1968. Me: What was your rank? Richardson: When I got out? Me: yea Richardson: I was E 5, second class, when I got out in 1974. Me: You served in Vietnam, where exactly did you serve? Richardson: I was on board a destroyer, what I call a tin can, If you ever see it up beside a battle ship or a aircraft carrier, you will know why they call it a tin can, because that’s what it looks like, out there on the water, it goes everywhere. I went to boot camp in Orlando, Florida in 1968. I joined my ship which was stationed in Newport, Rhode Island at the time in 1969. Pitts: What was the name of it? Richardson: The USS. Keppler, DD 765, the keel for it was laid in 1946. Pitts: While in Vietnam, were you in any battles? Richardson: When I got on board the ship in Newport, Rhode Island in 1969, we were there for about 3 months, we were suppose to go to the Mediterranean, had no intentions of going to Vietnam at the time. They cancelled the cruse to the Mediterranean; they told us our home port was now changed to Pearl Harbor. From there we made our first cruse to ‘Nam. We went through the Panama Canal, which was awesome, even though we went through in the middle of the night. 1 �We were a support ship, the Vietnamese had no Navy. They had land armaments, canons, and they would shoot at us. They had a bunch of sanfrans, you think they were fishing boats, but they were the enemy Pitts: They actually disguised them as fishing vessels? Richardson: Yea that’s what they were; they would have Viet Cong, North Vietnamese on them. In fact three years before I got on board in 1966, one of those fishing vessels was acting suspicious, and our ship followed it, up the North China Sea, right off the coast of Vietnam. And our ship followed it, they got bombarded, our ship was the first U.S Navy ship to suffer casualties. And it is not recorded anywhere, I have looked. What we did was support the land movements, Army, Marines, whoever they were. They would call in support and we would blow up everything. Pitts: Ok, so you were land support, uh sea support for land movements, so what was, right before you got out of the Navy in 1974 what was your assignment at that point? Richardson: I was a boiler technician, back then the boilers made the steam that turned the turbines in the engine room that drove the ship. They do not use them anymore. After I got out they did away with boiler technicians, they are no more, the only thing boilers are used for is to make hot water for showers or whatever, now everything is nuclear even destroyers are nuclear. Pitts: Was the ship coal fired? Richardson: no it was oil, number 6 oil; Pitts: oil, ok Richardson: It was thick and nasty, where I was always hot, probably over 110 degrees constantly, you were dirty, stinky. They called us snipes and bilge rats and all this stuff, cause that what we were. Pitts: Yea, it was a messy messy job huh…. Richardson: Yes It was, defiantly was… Pitts: What port were you at when your ship docketed when it was not on assignmen, where did it dock? Richardson: Pearl Harbor Pitts: At Pearl Harbor? So you went to and from Pearl Harbor to Vietnam and back. Ok. Richardson: yea, we were in the 20th corps, been to several places in the western Pacific, Southeast Asia. 2 �Pitts: So, did you go anywhere else besides ‘Nam, during the war? Was you assigned….. Richardson: Yes, we went, you talking about other ports? Pitts: yea Richardson: Spent a lot of time in the Philippines’, went to Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Thailand, Bannock, Thailand, Taiwan, I already said that. Singapore, we were heading for Australia, talking about did we taking fire, we were heading for Australia for R and R, we were gone, we had already crossed the equator. That what this shirt is, my shellback shirt, I will tell you about shellbacks in a minute. We were heading there when our sister ship, the Lloyd Thomas DD 764, was hit in Vietnam, we would trade places. We had to turn around and go back to relieve them; they had to come off line, so we never made it to Australia, and I always wanted to go there. Pitts: would have been a bit of a vacation Richardson: oh yea that would have been cool. Pitts: so you mentioned what was it? Richardson: shellbacks Pitts: yea shellbacks Richardson: shellbacks are for when you cross the equator, you become a shellback, normal people, and navy guys are little people, pollywogs. When you cross the equator it is a big ceremony for your ship. Everybody that have crossed the equator before, they dress up, one of them is going to be King Neptune, they put grease all over his belly. The pollywogs on board, they have to go through a ritual, I doubt they do it anymore, because there are women on board…. Pitts: oh Richardson: you wear nothing but your underwear, and that is it, and you crawl around the whole deck. Pitts: around the perimeter of the ship? Richardson: yes, around the whole deck of the ship, on your hands and knees, and they squirt you with sea water and hit you and slap you and all this stuff. They had what they call, I don’t know how to spell this Trey, but what they call shilalies. Pitts: shilalies? Richardson: It was a piece of fire hose; you know how rough fire hose is? 3 �Pitts: yes, yes I do Richardson: It was pieces of fire hose about three feet long, and rap one end of it and bind it, so they could get a handle on it. And for weeks at a time shellbacks, the ones suppose to whoop your rear, would soak it in sea water, and dry it, soak it and dry it. Pitts: so that just made it harder. Richardson: hard as a rock, as your crawling around there, they would hit you, it hurts, there not permanently damage you, they do all this, they put a life raft on the fan tail, that’s the rear of the ship, and fill it full of garbage from the kitchen, fill it , and water, and they collapse it, it’s got a roof on, and you got to go in one end and come up the other, with something in your mouth, it was terrible. Pitts: didn’t matter what it was, just something. Richardson: just something, didn’t matter if it was a carrot, sardine, something, it was terrible. Remember you are on the equator, so what’s the temperature like? Pitts: up in the 100s probably? Richardson: pretty ripe, all this stuff was pretty ripe. Pitts: so when you said they were on the equator, they would actually anchor right on the equator? Richardson: No you couldn’t anchor, there ain’t no way! Pitts: oh yea! Richardson: Your there around it. Pitts: they would just stay on it, pretty much orbit it Richardson: yea Pitts: I don’t know why I said anchor Richardson: but anyway, everyone squirts you and hits you, and all this stuff, then the fat belly dude, with all the grease on his belly, you got to come you to him, state your case as to why you should be a shellback, then they grab your head and rub it in his ol greasy belly, and then you become a shell back. Then you’ve got king Neptune, usually the oldest shellback, that stands there with his what do you call it.. Pitts: trident? Richardson: trident, whatever, it was cool, every ship goes through it, I have seen it on the military channel, an aircraft carrier, it was cool, it was December 7th, 1971, I will never forget it. 4 �But you got a big certificate, I got it hanging on my wall. Pitts: so when you went through the trash, what did you come up with? Richardson: I don’t remember, I believe it was a sardine, dead fish or something Pitts: more or less It just smelled bad so you wanted to get out huh? Richardson: oh yea you wanted out of there! Anyway we had to cut short from that instead of going on to Australia, and head for the South China Sea. Pitts: To relieve your sister ship? Richardson: Yea Pitts: so when was your last tour of duty? Richardson: My last trip to Vietnam I would say in 1972. Pitts: two years before you got out, and that was when you was a boiler technician? Richardson: yea I was boiler technician at that point. Pitts: Well I guess, so when you got out, did you retire? Richardson: No I got married while I was in the Navy; I met a gal over there in Pearl Harbor, she was, not Hawaiian, she was a Navy brat, she was raised there, so that was why I got out, I got out in 1974, to start another life. Pitts: ok Richardson: I wish I would have brought my uniform with me. Pitts: yea, what medals did you receive? Richardson: I got my service medal, everyone gets those, then I have a Vietnam service medal, a good conduct medal, basically that is it. Since we were not involved in hand to hand, we did not get any of those, we were support, we did our job, the ship got awards, so, no medal of honor. Pitts: You mentioned the shellbacks, so what else sticks in your memory? Richardson: things I will never forget, going through the Panama Canal, after we had went through, the Panama Canal, we were going to go to stop for a little R and R in Arco Poco, we didn’t, our ship broke down, we were dead in the water, If you look out at the ocean there in the south Pacific, it looks like glass, it looks calm, but it wasn’t real slow moves, our ships rolled side to side and you thought it would tip over, the moves were so drastic. Pitts: did anyone get sick? Richardson: oh yea people got sick all the time, I never did, a fuel pump went out in our fire 5 �room, You got two fire rooms one boiler each in them, I was in the aft fire room, we busted our rears, it took ours, literally hours, took about twenty hours or so, that stopped our R and R into Arco Poco, we went in to San Diego, were talking about 1969, beautiful city. When your out on the open sea, you just think this place is vast, one of our duties was escorting aircraft carriers, and planes would take off 24/7, at night it was an awesome sight, they would come back in at night. Pitts: One thing I meant to ask you was, I know during WWII, ships were limited on how much light they could give off, did they do the same thing during nahm? Richardson: oh yes, we were in reach of land, I guess you could say, we could not open any hatch leading to the outside, no smoking on deck, none of that, you could go forward to aft inside and never go outside, you had to be secure. And you always training, when you were not on duty, they did a lot of training, lot of damage control. Pitts: so they basically ran scenarios. Richardson: yea, over and over, so you could be automatic if anything happened. Pitts: did they do any weapons training? Richardson: Yea oh yea, when we were out in the middle of the pacific, when you are out there doing nothing, your are training, damage control safety or you were weapons training small arms, 45 automatic, M 16, we did not get to do a lot of that, and I loved that. Pitts: so all other training was basically, everyone was a fireman. Richardson: yea, got a lot of gunpowder on board, armament, and that was what happed when we did get hit, it blew up the front gun torrent, pretty major. Another thing when you go to foreign countries, at least then, I don’t know how it is now I haven’t been to a foreign country since 1974 or so, for instance we would go into Sewage Bay, in the Philippines, and there was a bridge there we had to cross from the base to town, we would cross this bridge, but You thank God for America, when you are in these foreign countries, we had a name for this river, but I’m not going to repeat it, these little kids were swimming in this river, and they would holler up at you to throw in a dime or something, and they would dive down and get it, and all the sewage in the world ran into this river, it was terrible. Went to Hong Kong, made several trips to Hong Kong, the city itself, it was like New York, beautiful. We toured this city and you would see signs that let you know that it was Red China and not to got there, at the time England controlled Hong Kong, There was a grave yard, and what they would do is they would bury someone, and 6 �in a few years dig theme up an bury someone else in that hole. There was no room you were on an island, big apartments, looked like outside of Washington D.C, thousands of people living there. Every country I went to had its good and bad side. Pitts: I guess this was during R and R? Richardson: oh yea, we were not there for very long, reloaded with food, supplies and stuff like that, and another thing I remember was refueling at sea, it was an amazing thing to see, cause again everyone had a job, you job may be no more than to stay out of the way. Pitts: that was your job. Richardson: that was your job, and you better do, don’t want to get in the way, very dangerous, because you were side by side with a ship, nothing ever happened, I never say anything bad happen, planes taking off at night was just one of the most awesome things. Pearl Harbor itself, beautiful, where we docked, when we were home, was right across from the Arizona memorial, the whole island was full of memorials, would I do it again, in a heartbeat! 7 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/75af38983675344eb90a2a1fc5184cf9.mp3 ee77a7ce4aa75037f25189bb029303f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 49 KB 30.3 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Navy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pitts; Trey Richardson; Larry Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Pitts, Trey Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Richardson, Larry Interview Date 10/11/2012 Number of pages 7 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:26:33 Date digitized 2/9/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code 43375089912d4c8d3e89b74dbdafcf65 ee77a7ce4aa75037f25189bb029303f7 Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_Richardson_Larry_20121011_transcript_M 5018_Richardson_Larry_20121011_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Richardson [October 11, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pitts, Trey Richardson, Larry Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Larry Richardson served in the Navy 1968-74 aboard the USS Keppler. He was an E5 2nd class when he left the army and was a working as a boiler technician, making the steam that would allow the engine to run. His ship came and left out of Pearl Harbor. Subject The topic of the resource Richardson, Larry Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews 1968-74 boiler technician E5 Larry Richardson Navy Pearl Harbor USS Keppler Viet Cong Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e507edc566d464727448747cc078c15a.pdf da7fe3cec23f43afb7d68503f79e8c03 PDF Text Text Name: Branch: Years Served: Conflicts: Date of Interview: Eliot White, E-5, 2nd class Petty Officer U.S. Navy 2000s Iraq War October 14, 2012 Thomas Di Tomasso: It is October 14, 2012. We are in Boone, NC, in our house at 3245, Highway 421 North. I am interviewing Eliot White, currently a sophomore at Appalachian State University. I am Thomas Di Tomasso a senior at Appalachian State University majoring in International Criminal Justice. White: Freshmen. Di Tomasso: Oh my bad freshmen. Di Tomasso: And we will begin the oral history interview now. Di Tomasso: To start off where were you born and raised? Eliot White: I was born in Sarapul, Russia and I was raised at an orphanage until the age of nine, adopted at age ten. Then came to Charlotte, North Carolina. Di Tomasso: All right, when and why did you choose to join the military? White: I was in a bad spot, where I was living at, at the time and pretty much looked at it as my way out. Di Tomasso: What rank did you eventually reach? White: The highest rank that I reached E-5 Second Class Petty Officer. Di Tomasso: Do you have any family history of being in the military? White: Biological family, not that I know of. Adopted family my grandfather, actually both my grandfather’s, one served in World War 2 the other was in the Korean War. Di Tomasso: Ok, what experience or schools, or experiences or schools did you attend in your initial entry phase in the military? White: Initial entry phase outside of boot camp, ITA School in Pensacola, Florida and that’s about it. Di Tomasso: What is ITA school? White: Information Systems (…) technical school. 1 �Di Tomasso: So, where were you assigned after your initial entry phase? White: After Pensacola I was assigned to Operational Naval Intelligence Washington, DC. Di Tomasso: Can you tell me specifically what your job was? White: In DC my job was to monitor and (…..) pretty much write up, send out, receive, and correct military messages that went through HBSS Systems (…) I mean(………) yea at a basic level that’s pretty much what it was, I mean honestly all it was incoming and outgoing traffic messages. Di Tomasso: Ok ,how did your family react to you being in the military? White: My parents thought it was a good idea for me, seeing as I wasn’t really doing too well on my own. They thought it would help me with my (…) I guess growing in, growing up experiences and stuff. Di Tomasso: Were you ever deployed, how many times and where were you deployed? White: I was deployed once, [unclear]. Our headquarter deployment was in Bahrain, which is in the middle east, is a small base in Jafar southwest of Saudi Arabia, we did all our OPS, things of that habit there. Di Tomasso: What year was that? White: That was September 2010. Di Tomasso: Ok, did you ever experience any combat while you were deployed? White: I did, twice. Di Tomasso: Now, can you tell me about any of your combat experiences? White: I mean the best way for me to put it is a high paced, hectic, a lot of things going on at one time. Bullets flying past you, things exploding, live ammo being used. I mean it was no joke, it was, It was pretty much high tension. You make one mistake somebody could go down. Di Tomasso: Is there any specific situations that you could tell me about you were in, certain battles or experiences? White: (White shakes head) 2 �Di Tomasso: All right, so what can you tell me about the culture of the area you were deployed? White: Culture was pretty much, I mean essentially it was ninety nine percent Muslim, and they had, there were a lot of Indian immigrants, a lot of Asian pacific immigrants, I mean (…) it was very highly concentrated Muslim area basically. This is kind of hard to describe seeing as it was a big, mainly looked down upon females. Females were pretty much considered as baby meals, essentially. Best way to put it other than that. Di Tomasso: Did you have any females in your squad or unit? White: (Coughs) No we did not. (Coughs) Di Tomasso: Did you see how any American females; did you see them interact with any of them? White: It (...) The way it was best put to them, and to us, as far as them going into town and what not, was keep interaction between female parties and the locals was to a minimum, absolute minimum. Their dress had to be absolutely monitored, as in collared shirt, long sleeves, long pants. They weren’t allowed to wear you know short skirts, things like that nature. A lot of times that wouldn’t be allowed off base, unless a male individual was with them, for security and safety reasons, but other than that. Di Tomasso: How did you progress throughout your military career? White: Just like any other individual, I worked hard, with being in the Navy, or the Navy progression system basically from E1, E3 its like wait your time, nine months in-between. From E3 to E4 its a six month wait, you take a navy wide exam, you had to score a certain score on the exam and what not to be considered for advancement. From E4 to E5 its one year, once again you take an exam, and (...) I did what I had to. Di Tomasso: So you made your way from E1 to E5? White: E1 to E5 in exactly three years. Di Tomasso: Is that considered a short period of time? White: That’s extremely short. (Chuckles) Most individuals won’t, it takes on average about five to six years to go from E1 to E5. 3 �Di Tomasso: So why do you think that you were able to do this in that short amount of time? White: I mean allot of it had to do with experience. (…) A lot of Navy is based on ships, and short commands, being with my situation being, you know seeing combat and being out there first hand actually witnessing the things that they were being taught. Just a lot easier for me to grasp information, and just go back and regurgitate it on the test. Di Tomasso: What can you say about your leadership, officers specifically that you interacted with, I mean how do you feel? White: Some of the greatest people I’ve ever met. I mean those guys would do anything for all of us. I mean it was pretty much, honestly it was like a little brotherhood, I mean every single one of us would take a bullet for the other, for the next person next to them, because we knew that if they messed up that could be my life on the line, if I messed up it could be there life on the line. Di Tomasso: So you had respect, I mean the officers were competent in their jobs? White: The officer’s knew exactly what they were doing; if there was any question that it shouldn’t have been done they wouldn’t do it. I mean it would stop right there immediately. If orders were given out, and they weren’t sure about the order’s they would clarify immediately. They wouldn’t wait and see it through before finding out there was a mistake. But other than that it was a great group of people. Di Tomasso: What problems did you see in your time in the military, with the way the structure and organization, and how everything was run? White: The biggest, my biggest issue was (….) personal lack of motivation, because a lot of individuals are younger, you know under twenty-three. It’s hard to control them, seeing as they just, they see what’s right but they don’t always see what’s good. It’s actually, what I’m saying is they knew what they believed is right to them, but they don’t follow order’s the way they sup post to. And plus it being very high technology based society now a days, a lot of them just want to go by what every body else says. You know, what they see on the Internet, or they see on the news, they don’t actually want to sit down and research the information. Di Tomasso: How did you get through difficult times while you were in the military? White: it’s going to be slightly weird but the best way to put it is music. I mean, whenever, you know something absolutely off the wall, tragic happened, let’s say lost we a teammate or you know, we saw a bombing run of a civilian village. I just put my headphones in, zone everything out, and just get, get through it, easiest way to put it. 4 �Di Tomasso: What did you see of the other branches of the military Army, Marine Corps, maybe Coast Guard, and how did you interact with them? White: I saw a lot of Marine’s, a lot of Air force, some Army, and a few Coast Guard. A lot of the Marine’s, they were pretty much a security detail, I mean Master at Arms, K9 Units. We didn’t really interact very much with them. It was more of, off the work schedule, you know barracks parties, or you see them out in town sometimes, play basketball at the gym, see them at the library. But other than that we never really, I mean there was no true interaction within the branches. Di Tomasso: So when and why did you decided to get out? White: It was my, my four year contract was, (…) pretty much out. April of 2012 I got out decide to call the G. I. Bill, and go to school. Di Tomasso: So how do you feel with the political environment that we’re in right now, how do you feel, do you feel politicians care about the military, and how do you feel they affected you as far as when you were deployed, and stuff like that? White: Honestly (…) it (…) I mean (…) that’s a tough question, because I was always you know taught and trained from the get go in the military to follow orders regardless. I mean unless the orders were absolutely wrong or completely illegal, just follow them. So I never really, quite paid attention to the political side of the whole thing, not until I was about E4, E5 you know reached the higher ranks that’s when you sit down you really, you know you have people who your in charge of, and people reporting to you on a daily basis, that’s when the political side of it really hits you. The way I perceived the whole, you know the U.S. government dealing with the troops overseas and bringing them home and this and that, it was interesting, because a lot of times It didn’t really matter who left or who stayed it was just more about numbers, it was about how many people had gone, or how many people gone home. It was, no prejudice to whether, you know people had families, or people had been there for a certain period of time, and you had people who had just got there, to come home or not. So I mean it was really chaotic, but at the same time, I mean it was pretty much, it was an organized madness essentially. Di Tomasso: So, you and I have talked about this before, military life being very high paced. How did you transition, to the civilian world after getting out of the Navy? White: Honestly, I mean I’m still trying to kind of, get used to the whole civilian sector of it, because it is very (….) slow per say, I mean nothing really goes on. I mean I don’t see loud noises going off here and there, and every once in awhile I’ll get flashbacks, I’ll just kind of like sit there and just zone out (…) but other than that I mean the transitions pretty much on going. It’s probably going take at least some 5 �time you know in the future, to at least fully grasp the idea that, hey I’m not in the military completely, I don’t got to do the same stuff as I used to. Di Tomasso: Is there anything specifically you would say you took away from your military experience? White: By far the best trait is discipline. I mean before I went in the military and what not, I was always one of those high going you know or fast paced individuals. I just wanted to do something, I just wanted to go out there you know whether it’s play sports, or just hang out with friends, and party or whatever I just wanted to do something. Getting out in the military it’s more of, you know I got this to do, I got to do this, I got to do that, let me take care of that first, and then whatever time I have left you know enjoy. But yea I mean the biggest is probably discipline. Di Tomasso: Is there anything else you’d like to add to your military experience or anything else you would like to talk about that we may have not covered? White: That’s pretty much it. Di Tomasso: I appreciate your time, and that concludes the interview. 6 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/57144363667db6896433c4bc8c491657.mp3 12bb42e12e787cdfd4b840131475219b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. File size 82.5 KB 16.9 MB Format, digital MP3 Military Branch military branch (U.S. Army, etc) U.S. Navy Officer Rank Officer rank (major, private, etc) E-5, 2nd Class Petty Officer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Di Tomasso; Thomas White; Eliot Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Di Tomasso, Thomas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. White, Eliot Interview Date 10/14/2012 Number of pages 6 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:14:50 Date digitized 2/10/2015 Checksum alphanumeric code fb967bbc7927ba251ba97f7047d00a4e 12bb42e12e787cdfd4b840131475219b Scanned by Leah McManus Equipment Adobe Acrobat XI Pro Resolution 300 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal; non-commercial; and educational use; provided that proper citation is used. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived UA.5018. American Military History Course Records Recording rate A/V rate (48,000kzh x 16 bit) 48000kzh x 16 bit Format, original Electronic File Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 5018_White_Eliot_20121014_transcript_M 5018_White_Eliot_20121014_audio_A Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eliot White [October 14, 2012] Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Language A language of the resource English English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Di Tomasso, Thomas White, Eliot Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Description An account of the resource Eliot White, born in Russia but adopted by American parents, entered the US Navy before starting college. After basic training he went to ITA School and participated in Operation Naval Intelligence working in Washington DC. He was eventually deployed to Bahrain and saw combat a couple of times. He describes his combat experience as "very hectic" and music was the only thing that could calm him after his difficult experiences. Subject The topic of the resource White, Eliot Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Bahrain E5 Eliot White Iraq War ITA School Operation Naval Intelligence Russia US Navy Washington DC https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/10b094578caf2efde14d8577c2a5d8e8.pdf 2200fe825551b661b930a89f70a87fe0 PDF Text Text Lawrence Ryan Ziegler American Military History Dr. Judkin Browning March 13t 11 , 2010 Interview Transcript- Dean Williams, March 1Ot\ 2011 Ryan Ziegler- Alright, this is Ryan Ziegler here with Dean Williams on the 1Oth of March at about 10 past 2. We are in Special Collections of the Carol Grotnes Belk Library, on the 4th floor, and it is only Dean and I that are present here in the interview.( ... ) Mr. Williams, can you please state the branch of the military in which .... in which you served? Dean Williams- I was in the Air Force. RZ- OK. And what rank? DW- Sergeant. RZ- OK. How long where you in? DW- ( ... ) 4 years. RZ- OK. ( ... )Were( .... ) let's see( .... ) were you drafted, or did you enlist? DW- Both. I finished( ... ) My senior year in college I finished my last exam, went to check my mail , and there was my draft notice. And at that point (long pause) I decided( ... ) well some time after that, I decided to enlist in the Air Force rather than go into the Army. RZ- OK. Alright, where were you living at the time? DW- When I was drafted ... ? RZ- Yes. DW- I was in Erskine College in Due West, SC. And I had come up( ... ) I got caught in the first draft lottery, and because I was in college, I still had my deferment. But your deferment was good for one college, and for four years. And so my four years were up, and I had a very low draft number. I think, anything below 100 and you were, you were sure of being drafted, and I think, if I remember correctly, I think my number was 54. RZ- OK. What year was this? DW- 1971. 1 �RZ- 1971. OK.( ... ) Is there any reason that you chose the Air Force? DW- I had several friends who had gone into the Air Force, and( ... ) they felt like( ... ) after( ... ) after talking to them and some other people, that( ... ) the Air Force took better care of its troops than the Army did, out in the field( .... ) so( .... ). RZ- OK. That's a good reason.( ...) Can you say anything about your boot camp or training experiences? DW- It was Basic Training, it wasn't really a boot camp. I forget how long it was, it was supposed to be( ... ) they've( ... ) they have radically changed it, they've lengthened it, and the Air Force now has a combat component in basic training, we did not have that. ( .. .)See, I went in, in October( ... ) no, wait a minute( .. .) in Sep ( .... )first of September( ...) and, by the middle of November, I think I was out of Basic Training. So, it was a lot of time spent marching and drilling, a lot ofPT, a lot of time waiting in line, filling out forms . It was( .... ) a very quick and in-depth induction to military culture. RZ- Alright. OK, so what was your job in the Air Force? DW- I was a Linguist. After Basic Training, I was sent to( ...) the Presidio of Monterey, California, to the Defense Language Institute, where I studied Russian. RZ- OK. How long( ... ) How long where you in that process? DW- Just a little bit less than a year. RZ- OK. And( .. .) Let's see( ... ) How did you( .. .) How did you, I guess, utilize that training? DW- Well.. .. after language school, we went to Goodfellow Air Force Base in Texas, for technical training, and then, I was sent to Turkey to serve as a Linguist ( ....) at a listening post, basically. RZ- OK. Can you say anything about, maybe a couple of your most memorable experiences? DW- Actually, it was pretty boring. The work was very boring, actually( ..... ) memorable experiences, I think the most memorable experience was trying to get used to the( ...) to the schedule. We worked four swing shifts, and then four graveyards in four days, and had three days off, and your body was constantly trying to adjust, and by the last graveyard, we were in pretty bad shape, cause we( ... ) it's hard to sleep during the day and there's always stuff going on. I think that the first set ofmids that I had to work were pretty painful( .... ) but as far as the work goes, it was pretty tedious and pretty boring, it wasn't much( ...) I'm sure some people had exciting things, but we didn't. RZ- (Laugh) Alright. OK( ... ) Let's see( ...) So( ... ) So you were basically listening to people talk in Russian? 2 �DW-Yes. RZ- OK. Well that's pretty cool. DW-Well, I guess it could have been, but( .. .) like I said, it was pretty dull stuff( ... ) I worked with some( ... ) some really good people, and( .. .) made some friends that I've kept up with since the 70' s. And then, probably the most memorable experience was actually living in Turkey. We lived on the economy; I didn't have enough rank at that time to live on base. We found a( ... ) a nice place at the end of one of the towns, and it was quiet and while there were Americans in the ( ...)in the little community, it was mostly Turks. And we found the Turks very hospitable, and the( ... ) where we were living there was( ... ) we were on the Bay oflzmit, so we spent ... we swam until we found out that the base had closed the swimming area( ...) because of contamination in the bay( ...) but then there were mountains and all behind us, so we did a lot of hiking and tracking around in the mountains( ...) we enjoyed that, plus( ... ) everywhere you go in Turkey, there's all this history there( ...) everybody passed through there, the Hittites, the Byzantines, the Romans( ... ) the Seljuk Turks, the Ottoman Turks, the Greeks, so it was( ... ) you know, there were a lot of ruins, but there were still, there were buildings that had incorporated ( ... )like there were Mosques that had Greek Columns in them, supporting the roof, so that was always interesting. Plus the( ...) the food was just( ... ) was just amazing, and for someone who hadn't travelled that much to suddenly be plopped down into such a rich culture was( ...) it was quite an experience. RZ- Alright. Sounds interesting, were you able to keep in touch with your family? DW- Oh, yes( ... ) I was over there 2 1/2 years, but we sent voice tapes, ( ...) this was, of course, pre-email days, so we sent cassette tapes back and forth, lots of pictures and( ... ) we wrote letters and my family were great letter writers, as were my wife's, so there was a lot of communication back and forth. RZ- OK. Let's see( ... ) you said something about- about how people entertain themselves, I guess, but( ... ) in Turkey, great place to travel around, I guess. DW- It was, and it was a fairly inexpensive place to live, and public transportation, while dangerous, was relatively cheap and you could get anywhere in the country. There were( ... ) of course, the big busses that ran between the cities, and then there were the small mini busses that ran to the villages, and then of course taxis. Some people bought cars and I didn't have enough nerve to really drive on( ... ) on Turkish roads, but it was( ... ) it was pretty easy to get around( ... ) and then there were( ... ) of course there were things on base, there was( ... ) there was a movie theater, where( ... ) we had, you know, a different movie every night it was just( ...) there was a base radio station, there was a base bookstore, there was a camera shop, there was an audiohobby shop and guys had a good bit of money and nowhere to spend it, so everybody had just top of the line audio systems, so( ... .) and then, every few months you could put in your what they call morale flights from Turkey to( .. .) I believe they went from( ... ) I don't know if they 3 �flew from our base, or you had to go to Istanbul, but they were flights to Europe, for guys on leave, so( .. .) the service members and the dependents could fly on that flight, so a lot of people went to Europe and travelled on leave. So, there was stuff to do, a lot of people were miserable. It was a hard place for( .... ) if you were single, because of the culture it was( ... ) it was hard there was no( ... ) very little interaction between( .. .) between like American men and Turkish women ( .. .)and, some people were very unhappy there, I think, a lot of guys got married, 18, 19, came over( .. .) divorce rate was pretty high over there, if they had to live on the economy, it was( ... ) it was hard for people without( ... ) I don't know how you say this, life-skills, dealing with a foreign language, dealing with a very different culture, dealing with( ... ) a very different attitude, like for example the town we were in had a water supply, and they'd come around and read your water meter wrong. My water-meter was broke. It was broke when we moved in and it was broke two and a half years later, and I always paid, they had the same water bill, and every time we went to pay the bill, I'd tell the guy that our water meter was- was broke, and he would say "Yes, know it's broke," and the next month, I'd tell him the same thing, so, a lot of people were frustrated by the sort of( ... ) the difference in the attitudes like that, and then it bothered some Americans that the Turks stared at them. Well, of course they would, you know, I mean, just drop foreigners down into your- into a small town and you're going to be stared at, and, I think some of the American customs amazed them, like Christmas trees. But, anyway( .. .) I forget what your question was, I hope I answered it. I kind of wandered off, there. RZ- Well, it was( .. .) it was, lots of information in there, anyways. (Laugh) DW- Sure. RZ- What was your( ... ) what was your experience with officers and fellow soldiers? DW- I had very little contact with officers. We were on-we did shift work, and( ... ) we were isolated from the main base, and there was( ... ) there was a flight commander, usually a lieutenant or a captain (cough) and that was about the only officer I saw on a daily basis, unless I had to go down on Main Base, then of course, it was crawling with officers. So I really didn't have that much contact with( .. .) I did make one friend who was an officer and,( ... ) it was at his own risk that he was friends with me because officers and enlisted men were not supposed to fraternize, of course. But, he and his wife had been on some of the same trips and same places that my wife and I had, so we got to know each other. And we're still- we still keep in touch, in fact( ... ) he's been to see us twice since then( .. .) no three time, since then, so( ... ) And the like I said, I made some real good friends while we were over there, some very interesting people. I met people from all over the country. We had neighbors from, let's see( .. .) one fella was from the Philippines, another was from Texas, one was from Oklahoma, one was from Michigan, so, we were ( .. .) we had a lot of different parts of the country brought together there and, it's like anywhere, some people you like better than others, some people you socialize with, some you don't. So, at work everybody( ... ) well you had to get along, there was no option about that, and then after work you associated with people you liked and avoided those you didn't, so( .. .) 4 �Fortunately, I didn't have to live on base. That was a real plus, I didn't have to live in the barracks. RZ- Yeah, I bet. DW- So I had a( .. .) we had a little place off-base which was nice. So, I avoided a lot of that mess. RZ- Well , that's good. Was it because you were married that.. ... ? DW-Yes. RZ- OK. Alright. Do you think there's a higher( .. .) out of curiosity, do you think it was a higher rate of married guys or single guys? DW- I'd say, there's probably more single guys. RZ-OK DW- I can't say for sure( .. .) I don't really know( ... ) I really don't know( .. ... .. ) probably more single guys. That I encountered. RZ- OK. DW- There was( .. .. ) there was a high school on base that( .. .) dependents from other places, other bases in Turkey were sent there to go to high school. There was also an elementary school and a kindergarten there. So there were a lot of children, American children on the base. RZ- I wouldn't expect that. DW- Oh yes, it was( .. .) and a lot of people had babies while they were there. RZ- Interesting. Well , do you recall your service ending? I guess what I really want to know is, what did you do afterwards? DW- Well, it kind of came to a screeching halt, while we were in Turkey( .. .) Congress was really upset with- with the Turks going into Cyprus, so they passed( ... ) I don't know if it was an embargo, or( .... ) I can't remember exactly the legislation. And so, the Turks closed the base, and they shut down- they shut down our operation, and- and people who had( .. .) a lot of time left on their enlistment were shipped to other bases, and those of us who were .. . had a few months left just stayed there, and they found jobs for us, like I worked at the Post- at the base Post Office for several weeks and then at the base Marina. They just had( ... ) there were so many of us. We worked every other day at the Marina, and the boss, the fella who was working the Marina said, basically if you need days off, just let him know, and take 'em, cause .... we did have stuff to do we had an oil slick move in one night, so we spent a good bit of time cleaning that up from the base beach and shoreline, but,( ... ) anyway, so I ended up basically( ... ) you know( ... ) not doing 5 �(... )well, like I said, you know, working at the Marina, getting boats ready for winter, and then we just- we did a lot of day trips, during that time. And then the Turks took over the base. RZ- OK. What year was that? DW- Seventy-( ..... ) '75 or '76, I cannot... I'd have to look at that. RZ-OK DW-It might have been '76. 1976. RZ- Alright. Did you( ... ) did you go to( ... ) after you got out of the service, did you go( .. .) I guess, go to work somewhere else, or go back to school, or. ... ? DW- I went back to school. I went to( ... ) University ofTennessee on the GI Bill. RZ- OK. What did you study? DW- Library Science. RZ- Library Science. And( ... ) Well, you said that( ...) you said that you've kept in touch with a lot ofthe guys that you served with. DW- Some of them, yes. RZ- OK. Even now? DW-Mm-hmm. RZ- OK. DW- One of them( .... ) one of them from Texas has put up a website with a lot of pictures from when we were in Turkey, and then, somehow a friend of his went back to Turkey just a couple of years ago and took pictures of how the village is( ... ) the town is now. And we're thinking photographs of the base( .. .) since it's a Turkish base, there's no getting on it, of course. But from the hills up above the base, they took some pictures, and you can see some of the changes. The village has really grown. Well, this wasn't a village, it was a small town. But it's just really grown, it's changed a good bit. RZ- What was the name of the village? DW- Karamiirsel. RZ- Karamiirsel? DW- It means "Black Prophet," or "Gloomy Prophet." And while we were there, we had some friends that had a little girl. And she was a beautiful little blonde-headed, cherubic baby, and 6 �they named her "Kara." And the Turkish women were just really upset with them for calling her that, that such a beautiful child would be given( ... ) would be called gloomy or( ... ) or dark. RZ- Interesting. Alright, did you join any veteran's organizations? DW- No, I.. .. No . RZ- OK. And, so, you studied Library Science? DW- I did. RZ-And ( .. .)and you have been a Librarian. DW- I have worked( ... ) I have worked in the Library( .... ) since 1978, I guess. RZ- Alright. I guess( ... ) one of the last things I want to ask is( .. .. ) I guess, how( ... ) how would you say that your service affected your life since then? DW- ( .... )It's had a major impact( .... ) it did a real good job of getting me away from home, getting me out. Definitely out of the comfort zone( ... ) you know, the( .. .) that( ... ) small-town, small-college, living in the same house for years( .... ) exposed me to a( ... ) a very different way of life, a very different mentality and mindset, and people who've never been in the military just don't understand it. ( ... )And( ... ) we( ... ) we were supposed to( ... ) go on a( ... ) we were supposed to go on Flying Status. We were supposed to be( .. .. ) work off an Airborne platform. And( ... ) so they sent us to survival school, so I spent nearly four weeks at( .. .) four weeks( .. .. ) three and a half weeks at Fairchild Air Force Base in Spokane, Washington in December, and that was a real experience. It was( ... ) for me it was a good experience, because I realized how much I could do and, realized what my limits were, and got to see some really different country up there( ... ) the first time I ever saw serious snow like that. And then of course the foreign travel. Of course( ... ) Monterrey, California was just was( .. .) very different from the( ... ) from the East Coast. ( ... ) Learned a lot of discipline. I learned( ... ) we went to school 8 hours a day and then came home and studied anywhere from 4 to 5 hours a night. I learned to appreciate( ... ) a lot of things. And then( .... .) and of course the foreign travel. We had( ... ) we had guys that desperately fought( ... ) well, didn't fight, but did not want to go overseas, and I was terrified I'd get stationed somewhere in the States, but, I was glad to get Turkey. So, it worked out really well , but no, it was a very ( .. .. )for me, it was a very positive experience. Like, I said it was( ... ) you know( .. .) I don't know that I would have joined, ifl had- .. .well , I might have, given the( ... ) given the employment situation, at that time, but the draft certainly pushed me into it, and so I went ahead and joined the Air Force, so .... But, like I said, it was( ... ) it was an interesting experience. RZ- Sounds like it. Well, before we conclude the interview, is there anything else that you'd like to add, any ..... ? DW- I can't think of anything else( ... ) 7 �RZ- Alright. Well thanks for doing this interview. DW- (Laughs) You're welcome. RZ- And, I guess that concludes this interview. DW- Is that what you needed? (Recorder shuts off) 8 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b2b6d2837e402d746342fdc38358209e.mp3 3143d3ce02ee204bf4f17c8b8374484a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Dean Williams describes his service as a Russian linguist working in Karamursel, Turkey. He was drafted after he finished his undergraduate degree, spent a year in Monterrey, California, studying Russian and then was sent overseas. He describes the work as "boring" but living in Turkey expanded his mind and allowed him to see from a different perspective. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Williams, Dean Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Ziegler, Ziegler Interview Date 3/10/2010 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:26:54 File name 2013_063_Williams_Dean_interview 2013_063_Williams_Dean_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dean Williams, 10 March 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ziegler, Ryan Williams, Dean Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 8 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Williams, Dean United States Interviews Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Dean Williams describes his service in the Air Force as a Russian linguist working in Turkey. He was drafted after he finished his undergraduate degree, studied Russian in Monterey, California for a year, and was then shipped overseas. He describes his work as "boring" but living in the small town of Karamursel was eye-opening and a very positive experience. Air Force basic training Cyprus Dean Williams Erskine College Karamursel linguistics Monterey California Russian sergeant Turkey https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9c900aada3130c6925cfe705dab8e397.pdf 0aca8a23c1a9936c79bc6493039eb7b4 PDF Text Text Oral History with Charles Watkins April 28, 2011 Interviewer: Judkin Browning Judkin Browning: It is Thursday, April 28 [2011]. My name is Judkin Browning and I am here at Appalachian State University interviewing Charles Watkins, a professor in the History Department here at Applachian State University, and the interview will begin now. Chuck, if I may? Charles Watkins: You may. Browning: First of all, when and where were you born? Watkins: I was born a poor, black sharecropper’s… oh, no wait [Dr. Watkins, who is white, was joking, mimicking a line from the movie, “The Jerk.”] I’m sorry. I was born on February 4, 1946 in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. Browning: And when you joined the military, what branch of the service did you join? Watkins: I joined the army under duress. Browning: Ok. So please enlighten us on how you entered the army, obviously not voluntarily. Watkins: Well, my family had moved to Delaware when I was a young kid and my father had opened up a clothing business in the early 1950s, and in the mid-60s, he started having a series of heart attacks while I was away at college. So I was having a very good time at college. I was in the middle of my second senior year, and he had another heart attack, so I dropped out and went home to basically run the business. And, as such, I had had a series of deferments, being in college. I think I had actually had every deferment known to mankind. And, when I left school I was able to get a hardship deferment because I was working for my father. And my dad died in late December 1968, and technically my deferment, of course, died with him, and so then I began to battle the draft board, which increasingly wanted me to make reports, in particularly business reports. It so happened that one of my father’s rivals was on the draft board, and I figured if I turned over my business records to the draft board I would be out of business the next day. So, I thought that I could stand down the draft board, which proved to be an idiotic concept on my part, because they finally had enough. And so they not only sent me a draft notice, they gave me a week to report, and so I did what every good business man would do, I ran to my senator in D.C., whose name was Caleb Boggs, and I moaned to him about the problem, about how unfair it was and so on, and of course he said to me, “Gee, if you had just come before you were drafted I could have helped you, but I can’t do anything after you are drafted.” So he sent me to the 1 �Pentagon. So I had a nice chat with the people at the Pentagon, who basically said (laughing) “That’s going to leave a mark.” So anyway, what I did was I found that I could enlist and get a 120-day delay, and it was my goal to try and sell the business in that period of time… I worked on that and lo and behold the time came and off I went to Fort Bragg, in North Carolina. Browning: What year was this when you eventually reported? Watkins: I guess it was 1969, I don’t remember the date. I remember it was hotter than hell in Fort Bragg. If you’ve ever been to Fort Bragg, you know they have these wonderful ants, and in summer it’s hot as blazes and no matter where you sit down, the ants climb up your boot, and start rolling up your pants leg there. Browning: Let me ask you a question about how, for those who are uninitiated, how does the draft process work? When you were a young man in college, how did you know that you had been drafted? How did you get a deferment? What were the mechanics of that? Watkins: You would be automatically deferred if you were actively enrolled in a college, or in certain types of graduate school, like Divinity School would give you a deferment. You made application for deferment, and you were given a classification. I think 2-S was a student classification and 1-A was… you were ready to roll, as it were, you were unprotected. And you got a draft card and it had your number on it. So colleges would report to the draft boards when students graduated or unenrolled any longer, so it was an interesting system of “Gotcha,” if you will. [Browning starts to speak]. I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but I think that I was drafted in the last draft before the lottery was introduced, and I had a wildly high lottery number as I recall, so I never would have been drafted. And I was reasonably old at that time for a draftee. Browning: The lottery was in ’69. Watkins: I was 22 or 23 years old. So I was… they caught me at the very end. Browning: I believe the lottery was in December of ’69. So prior to the lottery, there was just an understanding that if you were 18, you would be issued a number? Watkins: You had to register with selective service just as I guess you do now. So you did that and you requested a deferment. Browning: So when you eventually enlisted, it was 1969. The Vietnam War had been in the news for quite a while, especially with the Tet Offensive in ’68. Watkins: Yeah. 2 �Browning: What were your thoughts on, or did you have any thoughts about what was going on in the Vietnam War during your college years, during your deferments? Watkins: You know, I went to a Southern school, good ole Mars Hill College, favorite college of the South. I like to brag that Mars Hill College is the only degree-granting reform school in America at the time. (pause) When I left college in 1968, unless you were going to Yale or one of the Ivy Leagues, or really any of the northern schools, people’s idea of the ‘60s really hadn’t hit. So most of my classmates—my class was 1967, even though I didn’t graduate with it—most of those guys, if they thought they were going to get drafted, they went ahead and enlisted, and it was just one of those things that you did, you got out of the way. Now when I went back to Mars Hill in the early ‘70s for a summer to get my degree, the place was plastered with anti-war stuff, you know. The teachers had stuff on their doors, and all this kind of stuff, but that was really an early ‘70s phenomenon for most places. Browning: So did you, I mean, just following the news, did you have any thoughts on what was going on overseas, or “when my time ends, I may end up there?” Or was it all so far away? Watkins: It was all very, very, very far away. And it was not something that I thought that I would be a part of. Because if you think about it, the draft system was a kind of social classifier, in the sense that if you were not college bound or college trained, you might well go. Otherwise, you could very easily escape it and avoid it. Browning: So, back to your service—you entered in 1969, wound up in Fort Bragg in apparently the summertime, and your boot camp experience was there? Any memories that you have? What was boot camp like for you? Watkins: well, the army is a wonderful place to be if you’ve been under a lot of pressure, because you don’t have to make any decisions. You don’t have to pick out a tie in the morning. You don’t have to figure out what you’re going to have for breakfast or when you’re going to have breakfast, or if you’re going to have breakfast (laughing). The army takes care of all the major decisions. Do you need to have a crap? Well, you have ten minutes here to do it in. It’s now or never. So it’s very (pause) a simple life, shall we say? I had a great drill sergeant, whose name was Churchill Graham. Churchill Graham was a great guy. He said, “Don’t ask, don’t ask about my feelings about the war. I’m a professional soldier and I go where they tell me to go.” And he didn’t want to hear any crap from anybody. He was an equal opportunity taskmaster. He was black, but he didn’t care if you were black or white or green or yellow, as long you could get down and give him 25 pushups when he needed it. He was a good role model, a good role model. 3 �Browning: Did you find the physical challenge of boot camp to be difficult for yourself? Watkins: At first, because I had been out of school—I’d played soccer in college, and I had been away from that for awhile—so I was out of shape. But I managed to quit smoking before I went in, so that was a help. But the army knows how to get you into shape very quickly. They are very effective at doing that. Browning: So when you finished your time at boot camp, where were you—what was your specialty, and where did you find yourself next? Watkins: well, I, because of I guess the needs of the army at the time that I enlisted, I ended up signing up to become a clerk. So they sent me to clerk school at Fort Jackson [Browning: in South Carolina?] in South Carolina. And they ran three schools there, as I recall. They ran the clerk school, and then they ran what they called spoon school, and that was to teach you how to do mass cooking for the military, and they also had pole-climbers school, which you trained you to climb up poles and fix communications lines. We all sort of trained together. I was… I didn’t realize it at the time, but they were going to save my life, because they taught me how to type. Basically, they taught me how to type by having a sergeant stand behind me and every time I made a mistake, he hit me in the back of the head. And so I got damn good and accurate and fast, real quick. So it was intensely boring. Browning: How did that save your life? I’m just curious. Watkins: Well, I’ll tell you a long story, Judkin, if I may. I got bored, and so I volunteered for flight school. I thought that I was going to be sent down to learn how to fly Hueys. So off I went to Fort Walters, Texas, where flight training took place. What I discovered was, (laughing) we weren’t going to learn how to fly Hueys. What we were going to learn how to do was to fly a little two-man bird called the Hughes—had a big, bubble top and a little boom on the back. And what you basically did was you, if you were a pilot, you flew real low and real slow with a guy who had a rifle, and you looked for people in foxholes. As romantic as the opportunity was, I thought, you know, I’m not going to do this, because that gave me a four-year commitment, and the deal at the time was—well, this is great. You go in, you graduate as a warrant officer, you do 12 months in Vietnam, and then they promote you to Lieutenant. Then you come back and you spend a year out, and then you go back and you do another year in Vietnam, and then you come back, if you come back, and you’re a Captain. I thought, well, you know, I’m not going to make this a career, I don’t care if I’m a Captain or fraptain. They tell you at that time, when you’re headed off to flight school—they say “look, you’re going to Vietnam, one way or the other. You’re going to fly in Vietnam or you’re not going to fly in Vietnam, but either way, you’re going to Vietnam.” So I thought, well, okay, you know, the hell with this, I’ll take my poison up 4 �front. So I dropped out, and of course I got orders to Vietnam as I knew I would. I expected that they would make me a door-gunner… Browning: on a helicopter? Watkins: On a helicopter, or I would be assigned to an Av Company in some regard. But, lo and behold, I stayed in Cam Ranh… Browning: That’s Cam Ranh Bay. Watkins: Cam Ranh Bay. What I discovered was—I did not know it—but I possessed at the time the most valuable skill that the army needed. I could type. Who knew? And so I ended up being a clerk with a Headquarters company there. Browning: Did you find yourself thanking that sergeant who beat you in the back of the head at Fort Jackson? Watkins: Yeah, it was good, you know, because quite frankly—you might want to turn the tape off—but you know, as far I knew, they could have sent me to Fire Base Fuck You in a heartbeat (laughter). But it was better to be at Cam Ranh. Browning: So when you were sent to Vietnam, do you remember when it was that you arrived in country? Watkins: It was sometime around Thanksgiving. Browning: of ’69? Watkins: Yeah. Browning: Did you serve twelve months? Watkins: Yeah. See, that’s a funny way to fight a war because, you know as soon as you get there, you are given a date—it’s called the DEROS date: Date Eligible to Return to the States I think is how the acronym works out. So let’s say you go on December the 25th, well you know on Dec. 24 the following year, you’re going to be out of there. So it doesn’t encourage you to take risks, I don’t think. Because, now we were housed next to a bunch of troops from the Republic of Korea, known colloquially as ROKs. They were very, very difficult people, and one of the reasons why they were thought to be very difficult people was because they were there until the war was won. Which means that every night the ROKs pounded the shit out of 5 �somebody all night long with artillery fire, and you know, I never had any bad experiences that would give me flashbacks, but when I came back I found that it took me months to go to sleep at night with quiet, because I was used to artillery fire all night long, and that took some time to go away. Browning: What were your duties primarily while you were at Cam Ranh Bay? Watkins: I filled out forms. Browning: You weren’t actually loading and unloading so much? Watkins: No, although I was with an outfit called the 124th Transportation Command, and if you’ve ever seen these big SEALAND vessels were container ships basically, sailing container ships, and we’d unload them primarily using local labor. The material would be divided up and we would send truck convoys all over the place in the central part of Vietnam, so you’d go to Pleiku and Buon Ma Thuot, and Nha Trang, all kinds of interesting places and we would send those things out with what were known as hard trucks. They were supposed to be armored vehicles, but we made them armored by putting sandbags in the bottom of the truck and screw a couple of M-60s on the side, and that’s your protection. Browning: As part of your time in Vietnam, did you ever visit other parts of the countryside? Did you ever make your way to Saigon, for instance, or any other places besides Cam Ranh? Watkins: (pause) I never actually went to Saigon proper. I went a couple of times to Tan Son Nhut Air base, to the international terminal, where… because I took a leave back in the states, and you end up back there on your way out. Never saw Saigon. I went on… we used to call these things Civic Action Missions, where you go out and theoretically help the populace, and so I did some of those and I realized that my captain wasn’t reading the intelligence reports before we left, and at one point we had a MACV [Military Assistance Command, Vietnam] advisor who showed up and said basically, “what in the hell are you people doing out here?” Browning: This is a hot zone? Watkins: Yeah, I mean, you know, here we are wandering around in a convoy of jeeps. Browning: Now did you ever experience any combat or engage in a firefight, or witness one taking place? Watkins: No, no. I have no war stories. The only problems that we had really involved rockets. I don’t like rockets. And Charley would try to hit the SEALAND ships by setting up 6 �these rockets and try to nail the ships. The only problem was they didn’t have a guidance system, and so sometimes the rockets would end up in odd places, like my company compound, for example. I thought for God’s sake, you know, we’re the most industrialized country in the world, can’t we give these people a guidance system so they wouldn’t kill us accidentally. And every now and then sappers would come in and they’d blow the place up. But other than that. Browning: It makes me think, Cam Ranh Bay makes me think of the scene in “Forrest Gump” when he first arrives in Vietnam. Have you seen that movie? Watkins: You know, I did see Forrest Gump. Browning: and he first arrives in Vietnam, and they’re playing the Credence Clearwater Revival song, “Fortunate Son,” and Forrest Gump’s narration says when I first got to Vietnam the thing that I was surprised about was, something to the effect of the amount of beer, because they’re having a big barbecue when they first arrive in country. I didn’t know if that movie or any Vietnam war movie that you’ve seen if you thought that these people are getting it wrong, or that’s somewhat similar to what I remember over there. Watkins: You know, except for “Forrest Gump,” which I don’t think is really Vietnam. Browning: No, it just has a scene. Watkins: I have deliberately never watched Vietnam films. I think I’ve seen snippets from two. I remember seeing the river scene from… what was that film taken from Heart of Darkness? Browning: “Apocalypse Now.” Watkins: “Apocalypse Now.” Some very dark and weird scene. Browning: So you’ve never seen the Robert Duvall Air Cav scene? Watkins: No. Browning: The classic scene of that movie. Watkins: No. But the other scene I saw was, I think it was “Platoon,” and I came upon this accidentally. But whoever the main characters were, I think there were three of them. You and I may have had this discussion before—but they’re all standing around having a chat while somebody is burning shit in the background. And, I’m a guy of fastidious manners, and I like privacy, and there is no privacy, certainly in the war. And so you discovered that if you needed 7 �to have a bowel movement, there was a place to do that, a small building euphemistically called “the shitter.” And it consisted of about a board with maybe 8 holes in it, and underneath the holes were half of 50-gallong oil drums and that’s where the waste material went, and every morning, a Papa-san, an older Vietnamese gentleman would come by and put a handkerchief around his face, like he was holding up a grocery store, and he would take gasoline and he would pull out all those drums with a stick and he’d pour gasoline in those drums and then he’d light them all on fire. And, you can imagine the worst thing that you’ve ever smelled in your life and multiply that by a factor of 100 and you’re not even close to what that stuff smells like. You don’t want to be anywhere close to that. and the fact that these three guys are standing there talking in the middle of this is so absurd. When Papa-san or anybody else would go on holiday for Tet, that meant somebody else had to do that. and the person that had to do it was the last guy who’d shown up in the company, and we used to outfit that guy, whoever it was, in what amounted to a 1969 HAZMAT suit, you know with a gas mask on and everything else, and they’d still be half dead. It was just a very unpleasant experience. I don’t like to watch Vietnam movies, but that one fascinated me just to watch that scene, because who’s the director of that? Browning: Oliver Stone. Watkins: Oliver Stone. He’s supposed to be a big Vietnam vet. Browning: He had served a tour over there. Watkins: So he says. Well, I don’t know how anybody who ever served a tour in Vietnam (laughing) would have been able to do that scene. Because anybody who’s ever been near that would understand how absurd that is. Browning: Now I remember that you mentioned to me before that—I had asked you earlier, off the record—about the climate in Vietnam. I wonder if you could remark on that again. What you encountered when you got off the plane, and a lot of people are “Oh my god!” Watkins: Well, it was hot, it was real hot. But the climate to me was just like Delaware. It just had a more garbage-y smell than Delaware. The funny thing is, speaking of movies, because you land at Cam Ranh on a jet, at the time I was there they flew Flying Tigers, and so they didn’t want the jet to be on the tarmac for very long because you start to attract mortar fire, so you go off the plane and another group of guys gets on the plane. It’s a very surreal experience, because you’re getting off and you’re in your jungle togs, and they’re just fresh from the factory, everything’s clean. And the guys who are getting on the airplane. They looked like they’d been through hell, I mean, their clothers are all ripped and all that. and there was a guy in front of me, getting off the plane—and the lines pass, you know, you can talk to each other—and he looks over at this guy getting on the plane, and he’s obviously very nervous and he said, “how was it, 8 �man?” (laughing) and the guy looks at him and he says—I’ll never forget this—he said, “It was the worst movie I was ever in,” (laughter) and he kept on going. And I thought, well, there you go. And that really kind of describes the situation. You know, it’s why everybody talks about “when I go back to the world,” or “when I get back in the real world,” and at first that doesn’t make any sense, but after a while it does. Browning: and did you find that while you were in country in Vietnam—obviously Vietnam is much talked about in the years following the war and in the years of the war—did you when you were in country, did you find you and your comrades discussing the war in any way, greater mission, why are we here? Or were you just counting down the days until you. Watkins: No. Browning: Not many philosophers in the organization? Watkins: No. Not too many people want to (pause) discuss the philosophical aspects of things. You know what your day is, and you want to be around for that day. That’s the only thing. Browning: So your day came around Thanksgiving of 1970? Watkins: Yeah. As I recall, and this may be incorrect, but I remember having Thanksgiving dinner twice that year, because we were flying back. But I couldn’t get on the first flight, and I remember I was standing there, and I had given away all my other sets of jungle fatigues that I had. I had only had one pair of boots for about 4 months. They wouldn’t give you any more, and one of mine had fallen apart. I’m standing there and it’s raining like hell, and I missed the flight, couldn’t get on it, gotta wait for the next one. “What’s that God-awful smell? Did somebody dump their garbage or something?” And then I realized it was me. I was out there and I just smelled like an old wet dog. And I wanted to keep that set of fatigues, you know, as a souvenir and the boots, and finally I threw them in a trash barrel, and I put on a pair of Class A khakis that I had. You know, it’s hard to stay clean, and it does accumulate. Browning: When you returned to the States, what consisted of your remaining service once you got back? Watkins: Well, I had orders to go to an MP company in Fort Belvoir outside of Washington. But clerks and Spec 4s, they always know what’s going on in the army, and it became known that good duty could be had in what were called AFES stations, these were induction stations. If you could get assigned to an induction station, you weren’t on a military base, and you lived basically a civilian life, except for the time that you spent at the station. They get you an apartment and this sort of thing, and I was getting married anyway, and so I had orders to AFES 9 �station in Charlotte, NC. So I had somewhere around a year left, so I gave mental tests to people who didn’t always want to take them. Browning: Did you also have to judge the tests, or judge the results? Watkins: Yeah, we would score the tests. And it was really great training because you learn how to add up really long columns of numbers in your head to save time. You score these things real quickly. At the time it was the AFQT, the Armed Forces Qualification Test, and then another test called the AQB, Army Qualification Battery, I think, and so you’d be done at 12 or 1 or 2 o’clock in the afternoon and you could go off and do whatever you wanted to do. Browning: So you said you were getting married anyway, were you engaged while you were in Vietnam? Watkins: Yeah, I was. Browning: Communication was almost exclusively letters? Watkins: Yeah, entirely letters. The idea of making a phone call was—you were in another world. Browning: How often did you have correspondence with your future wife? Watkins: I did not have correspondence with that woman, my wife [Dr. Watkins is again joking] Browning: (laughing) I’m sorry I should have phrased it differently. Watkins: I don’t really remember. We’d get mail once or twice a week maybe. Sometimes there’d be a letter, sometimes there wouldn’t. Just depended. Sometimes you get a bunch of them at one time. Browning: When were you officially decommissioned, if you will, from the army? Watkins: I got an early out, to go back to school, sometime in ’73, I guess. I don’t remember actually. Browning: Was it a four year commitment that you had? Watkins: It was three year commitment. So I went in last ’69… 10 �Browning: Somewhere in late ’72 or early ’73? Watkins: Yeah, something like that. Browning: And so you said you went back to Mars Hill College? Watkins: I did, I went back to Mars Hill. Browning: And finished your Bachelor’s [degree]? Watkins: Yeah. Browning: And from there? Watkins: I came to Appalachian for about nine months, because at the time I was interested in going to law school, and no law school would take me. I was being turned down by night law schools that largely took cops, you know, that wanted to get out of “copdom.” A friend of mine said… and secondly, although I am usually—I probably shouldn’t admit this—I am usually amazingly adept at taking standardized tests. I am really good at it. Well, I couldn’t score high on the LSAT to save my life. All the answers looked right. (Laughter) And having given mental tests, you know I was very adept at testing strategy. So I knew how to maximize the score by, essentially by manipulating how I answered the questions. Well, it was absolutely not helpful whatsoever, and I thought, well, you know, I don’t think I’m stupid, but I need 200 more points on this thing. So a friend of mine said look, you need to go to Appalachian, said they’ll take anybody, and then you know you can use that transcript for grades. And amazingly, while I was here I took a course in constitutional law from a guy in Political Science who had both a Law degree and a Ph.D., and that’s how I learned how case law was built, and I realized how you actually made the determination on the LSAT, but I was interested in museum work also, and I had a chance to go to Delaware, so away I went. That was the end of law school. Browning: So you acquired your Ph.D. at Delaware? Watkins: Yeah. Browning: What year was that? Watkins: ’82. Browning: And then soon after that you wound up back here. 11 �Watkins: Well, yeah, I mean I had worked for a couple of years. When I left Delaware, I got a job as a museum director in Pennsylvania. I had the dissertation completed, researched, and everything written but two chapters, so I left in 1980. And it took me two years to write those last two chapters, because the work was pretty intense. So that worked out well. Browning: Obviously, you’re at Appalachian now. What year were you formally hired here? What year did you join? Watkins: I came in 1984. Browning: And been here ever since? Watkins: Yep. Browning: I guess the final question I should ask you, being an oral history interview for a military veteran, is: when you look back on your military experience, do you see any… what value do you see? Life lessons or anything that it taught you? What of intrinsic value would you say your service gave to you? Watkins: Well, Judkin, I can honestly say to you that I hated every goddamn day that I served in the U.S. Army. I got up every morning and I said, “I hate this fucking army.” I’m insuring that you will never be able to play this tape. Browning: You are not insuring that. Watkins: But the army… I was a snotty, superior kid. And being a private in the army was the greatest experience that I could have, because it threw me in with people I never would have been involved with. And it taught me that except for a very few number of morons at the bottom, and a few Mensa people at the top, the difference in intelligence between our smart people and our dumb people—it ain’t that much. So, when I think of William Buckley’s great quote, that he’d rather be governed by the first 20 or 50 or 100 people in the Boston telephone directory than the Harvard faculty… I don’t know if he understood exactly what he meant, but I understood what he meant, and that is, if you have to rely on the average intelligence of the American public, you’re going to be okay. Because there’s not much difference between whether they got a high school diploma or a doctorate—they’re about the same. And that was a real good experience for me to have. You learn how to get along with people who sometimes, you know, don’t want to get along. Then the army ruins you in a certain other way. If you need sympathy, or you need coddling, or you need psychological assistance, the army would not be the place to look for that. The army doesn’t care if you don’t feel well today. They don’t care if your knee hurts. They 12 �don’t care if your nose is running. They don’t care if somebody has just shot at you with an M60. They just want to know a simple question: did you accomplish the mission or didn’t you? And so that becomes the deal. They teach you to get the job done. No moaning, just get it done. Nobody wants to hear the grisly details. And so that’s good to know, and frankly, I probably would never have gone back to college without the GI Bill. It enabled me to have time to do what I wanted to do without the need to get a job right away. So I got a lot out of that as a result. So it’s a good thing. Sometimes…. I remember one night…. I’ll tell you a war story here, but anyway. We seemed to be being blown up, and I was dropped on a hill with an M-60 machine gun, a tripod, and a box of ammo. And it was pitch black out. And I was gonna defend the hill. Hoorah. It was just one problem. I had never fired an M-60 machine gun, and I had never loaded an M-60 machine gun, and so after about half an hour of trying to figure out how to put a belt in the damn thing, I just sat there next to the gun and waited to see what would happen. But you know they give you a lot of leeway for experimenting. You done? Browning: Well, Chuck, I thank you very much for the time you took to tape this interview. It’s been very enlightening, informative, and entertaining. Thank you very much. Watkins: I do my best. THE END 13 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/adda78b91181f55ebcd43c34c25d63a3.mp3 c8f984fb1ba2e1935de0a077ae2c8f41 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Watkins, Charles Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Browning, Judkin Interview Date 4/28/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:42:34 File name 2013_063_Watkins_Charles_interview 2013_063_Watkins_Charles_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles Watkins, 28 April 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Browning, Judkin Watkins, Charles Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 13 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Watkins, Charles United States Interviews Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Charles Watkins talks about his service as a typist in Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam. He spent a year overseas, and finished his 3-year service contract conducting mental health tests in the US. 1969 AFQT Appalachian Cam Ranh Bay Charles Watkins Churchill Graham deferment Fort Bragg Fort Jackson Mars Hill private typist Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/24e044f8a7054f4880670ac96560a93a.mp3 e86dfe73e20164198f74f058dac2df27 https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/37b2e2496dc83e131e649c29ae63ad23.txt c717d4620ce1bc488733705f1a3d0753 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Thomas, Richard L. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. None Interview Date None Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:03 File name 2013_063_Thomas_RichardL_interview None Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard L. Thomas, undated Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thomas, Richard L. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. None Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Description An account of the resource Richard L. Thomas enlisted in the US Navy in 1953 and served in the Korean War. He was trained to work in the Combat Info Center where a lot of the work was focused on avoiding submarines. Subject The topic of the resource Thomas, Richard L. Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews 1953 Combat Info Center (CIC) Cuba Guantanamo Bay Korean War Lieutenant patriotism Richard L. Thomas submarine US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/bd39b2c2eed0d6f65ab1dceff2e63593.pdf e879ac8eec16009713fb203f09497efa PDF Text Text Rob Helton: It is October 12th, 2012. Mr. Thomas: Uh huh. Rob Helton: I’m interviewing Mr. Gene Thomas, and we are in Mr. Thomas’ home in Pyatte, North Carolina. I am Rob Helton, a student at Appalachian State University, and this interview is being conducted as part of Dr. Judkin Browning’s American Military History Course for the Appalachian State Library, and we will begin the Oral History now. Mr. Thomas, When and where were you born? Mr. Thomas: I was born in Michaelsville in Yancey County. Rob Helton: Yes sir, what year was that, or what is your birthday? Mr. Thomas: 28 Rob Helton: Of…? What year? Mr. Thomas: …September the 19th, 1928. Rob Helton: And where were you raised? Mr. Thomas: I was raised in Avery County. Rob Helton: What did… What did your family do? Mr. Thomas: Well, my Dad was an engineer, and… he worked for Russ engineering company and retired there. They sent him all over, everywhere. Put in steel mills, paper mills, and all that stuff. And all he done was read the blueprints and tell them what to do. He had a big 554 acre farm in Highland County, prettiest place, it’s up in Virginia, but I came down here and stayed with my people most of the time. I’d go up and stay for maybe a week or two with him. My mother died, and he married another woman up there, she had a big farm, 220 acres of land, and one of these big colonial homes. And Dad had a new ranch type home built there. And, there was three of us children. I had a sister that’s older than me and a brother that’s four years younger than me, and he went in the Navy. And my sister lives in Morganton, out there like you’re going out 64, out there a ways on the left. Nice place, but she’s, she’s had so many strokes and she has to go with a walker, won’t let her drive her car no more. And her daughter’s living with her. Rob Helton: So when and why did you join the Army? �Mr. Thomas: I’d just a, I’d never seen the ocean or anything before, up in these hills, and… and I’d… Radio was all we had had back then, no televisions or… And I just wanted to do something for my country. Rob Helton: So where did you go to enlist? Mr. Thomas: I… They was a guy come through had… he, they was a, he’d… asked us a lot of questions and then he put us on a bus in Marion and sent us to Ft. Bragg, and I wanted to, they had things up all over Ft. Bragg there. ‘Join the Airborne, $50 extra a month for jump pay’ long as your on jump status. Well that’s what I wanted, and I wanted to jump. (laughs) That’s all I thought about, jumping out of an airplane. Rob Helton: And… I think you mentioned earlier but, you had an early childhood desire to jump? Mr. Thomas: Yeah Rob Helton: Would you mind telling that story again? Mr. Thomas: My mother told me about going to the county fair, and seeing this man go up in a balloon. And I said, well how did he get out of it? She said, he parachuted. Well I said, what’s a parachute. She said, you come down like a big umbrella you know. I ruined every umbrella she had! We had this big barn and a big chicken house and I’d jump off of that chicken house. (Rob laughs) And I just wanted to do that so bad, I thought what a thrill that would be, come floating down. But it wasn’t so good when they were shooting at you, you know that?. (Rob laughs) Rob Helton: Yes, sir. So what, when… do you remember the… your enlistment date? Mr. Thomas: Yeah. The 8th day of… I was sworn in the eighth day of February, 1944. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: At Ft. Bragg, and then they sent me from there to Ft. Jackson to take Basic Training. And it didn’t last long, then they shipped me on to Ft. Benning, Georgia, which is down there right out of Columbus, Georgia you know. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: Across the river from Alabama, the Chatahoochee River runs down there. And before we ever jumped out of an airplane, they’d put a harness on us and we’d slide down this cable, and that’s how we learned how to land, you know. Do a PLF and all that. And then they had them 250 foot towers, they’d pull us up in them, but the chute was already inflated. Had four big arms that was out, and… The Sergeant on the ground, he’d say ‘pull it to the left, pull it to the right.’ Before we �ever jumped out of an airplane we went through all of that. And then we started jumping out of them old C 47s. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: And that was a thrill, I tell you, that was a thrill. And I loved it! And then they took us in the rigging tent, where they rigged the chutes on these big long tables. And we, you could hear a pin drop buddy, we thought we was gonna jump with the chute that we… rigged you know? But we didn’t. They had riggers that was good. And they had come out with that old C5 chute, which wasn’t worth a hoot. It didn’t have no panels out, and they was hard to maneuver you know. And then the next chute I jumped was a T7 chute, which had one panel out, and you could maneuver it pretty good you know. And then they got that T10 chute, and boy that was a dandy! And I just loved it. Rob Helton: And so after jump school, you were assigned to the 101st Airborne? Mr. Thomas: 101st. Rob Helton: Do you remember which Regiment and Company? Mr. Thomas: Yes, sir. I was in the 506th Parachute Regiment, 3rd Battalion, A Company. And my commanding officer in Europe was from Lexington, North Carolina. Colonel Robert Sinks, he was a full bird Colonel. And I thought the world of him, and then we had a Captain, he was from Pennsylvania. Richard Winters, you may have read something about him. Rob Helton: (humorous) Yes, sir. I believe I’ve heard of him. Mr. Thomas: He was one fine man. That man, he didn’t drink, he didn’t smoke, he didn’t cuss. But he was a leader, that man… I’d have followed him through hell, well I did! (Both laugh) But he died along back, I kept telling Georgia (Mrs. Thomas) I said we need to go up to Hershey, Pennsylvania and see my buddy. He was a Captain when, well he was a First Lieutenant then he made Captain. And he was just such a good leader, that man was a leader, and he didn’t mind killing. Cause we had a job to do. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: And buddy he was right with us, all the way. When we jumped in France, St. Mere Eglise, France. I had a friend from, well he was originally from Alabama, but they lived in Winedot, Michigan. Went up there, his people did, to work in the factories you know. Building Jeeps, tanks and… And Donald Barragut was his name, and that, and he got wounded three times. And he was another fine guy, buddy. He was 19 and I was 16. And, we trained a lot after we got to England. We trained in England, then we went up in Scotland and trained some, and then �back to England. And then… D Day was coming up, that was the 6th day of June, 1944, and they had rushed us through everything. They needed us bad, and me just a kid. And I had some good men that was older than me, they was a lot of help to me. And we jumped, come down behind the German lines. St. Mere Iglis, at night. It was just a little after midnight when we jumped, and then that was D Day, that’s when they was gonna land at Normandy you know, and all them beaches up through there. And… we fought up there, and… they was… right out of St. Mere Iglis, there was swampy country and the Germans had filled it, flooded it with water and a lot of the guys drowned in it. We come down right in St. Mere Iglis, and… they issued us these little snapper bugs. You click it once and then you hear two clicks and you knew it was your buddy, some of them in your company or platoon. And we fought there, and fought through them hedgegrows a long time up through there. And then they pulled us back to England. Newbury, England. And… we’d fall out and thought we wasn’t going when the weather was bad, and rainy and windy. And finally one day Eisenhower, I’ve got pictures of that, where he give us a pep talk, and wished us the best. And see, he was a… MacAuthur had the say so, not MacAuthur, but Eisenhower had the say so what to do. And after that, after they pulled us back to England we trained some more, and then… September 17th, it was on a Sunday, and, we pulled a glider behind us till we got to the drop zone, and cut him loose. And the German’s was shooting at us, you could here them bullets go ‘pew, pew, pew’ through the chutes! And I got it on the ground and I come down right on the edge of a little cornfield and I was getting out of my chute and I heard them cornstalks a rattling. Well here come a German soldier. And I’d just got out of my chute, and I had a carbine rifle, and… I whirled around, and there he was. He was ready to lay it on me buddy, and I whirled around and I shot him. Shot his helmet off, and the bullet went through his head, and he had on glasses. I’ll never forget him, that’s the first one I killed in Holland. Had to kill. And… after that it didn’t bother me. They had told us that, don’t think of them as a person… think of them as an object, and if you don’t get that object, he’s gonna get you. It didn’t bother me no more after that. And… we fought there in Holland, there at Mannehoven, Hell’s Highway they called it up through there. And after that they pulled us back Camp Mourmalande, France. And then on… 16th of December they loaded us up by trucks, had all coloured drivers, the Redball Express they called theirselves. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: And they hauled us from there, they wouldn’t go all the way into Bastogne, we had to walk in with snow up to our knees. And that first night we slept out in the field, and then we went on in and set up a perimeter around Bastogne. And then we fought there… and… my foxhole was here and then went on up out to the end. One night there was a jeep come up there, had a driver and a Second Lieutenant in it. And buddy I jumped out of my foxhole cause a lot of them Germans was wearing our uniforms. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. �Mr. Thomas: And I made him advance and be recognized and give me the password for that day, and they did. I run him through the mill. And my mother had sent me a carton of chewing gum for Christmas, and I was chomping on that stuff! And he said soldier what have you got in your mouth? I said some chewing gum that my mother sent me. He said spit it out! I said is that an order or a request? He said that is an order! Said the Germans can hear you a chewing that chewing gum. (Rob laughs) I said they must have pretty damn good ears. (Both laugh) He got back in his jeep and he left. And we fought up there, it was awful, terrible. Ten below zero, and in that Ardennes forest you know, out of Bastogne. And then we went on up to Norville, little town right out of Bastogne. We fought up there, I, we didn’t have no food, we run out of food and about out of ammunition. And, them Germans boy, they was, they was good fighters, I can say that. So, I seen this barn and a house way over here out of Norville. And I told my buddies, I said I bet you they got some eggs over there. And I said, I found out what the password was gonna be, and nobody else would go, we was starved! So I left right before dark, and went around through the woods and circled back down, there at Norville. And… I went to this barn and went in the barn and there was a big German police dog in there. And he run me up the steps up into the hayloft, and it had a gate there and I slammed that gate to. And his teeth looked that long buddy! (Indicates length of forefinger) (Rob laughs) And I was afraid to shoot him you know, didn’t whether they was Germans there or what. But finally a girl come out of the house and, with two milk pails. Was gonna milk the cows and… she… wanted to know if I could do that you know. (Indicates milking a cow) They spoke French and that was all. And I did, and I hadn’t had a bath in I don’t know when, and took me in their house, nobody there but her and her mother. And her Daddy was a doctor and he was in Brussels. And her and her mother was running the farm. And I got to take a good bath, and they fed me, and I kept showing them what an egg was. And they, they knew what I meant, and they had some of that five star cognac, they give me some of that, took me in this bedroom and I slept under a duck down comforter, and I set my rifle right there and slept with my forty five pistol right here where I could get it. (Indicates across his chest) And I looked, and I said get me up before it gets daylight. And they filled me up a thing kind of like a flour sack with eggs, and I went back up and circled around through the woods and come back up to where our perimeter was. And I got halted, and they could have court marshaled me for that. And… but my buddies covered up for me, and we had these little gas stoves about that high and about that big around. So we scooped snow up in our steel helmets and boiled them eggs! (Both laugh) Over that little thing there were it had our helmet over it. And the next day this officer came up there and he said where in the h e double l did all these eggshells come from! And one of them said I think old Thomas found a hens nest! (Both laugh) Covered up for me buddy! But we had eggshells everywhere, or we’d have starved to death. Well, it did let up a little bit and they dropped us some food and ammunition, medical supplies and stuff, and the Germans beat us to it. They got it, and we went for days and days… And first warm food I remember we ever had was an old corn meal mash, they’d cooked up. And buddy I thought that was the best tasting stuff I ever tasted in my life, cause we was hungry. And we fought up there for a long time and then this… Maxwell Taylor was my Division commander at that �time, but they had sent him back to the states. And General Anthony C. McClauliffe was a two start general and he went with us to Bastogne. And one day these, this German motorcycle come in with a, waving a white flag and an enlisted man and an officer. And wanted to talk to our commanding officer. And I could speak pretty good German, and we blindfolded them and took them into Bastogne, where General McClauliffe was. And, he told them, said we got you surrounded we want you to surrender, and he said Nuts you damn Krauts, said we’re just beginning to fight. (Both laugh) And they couldn’t figure out what that was! He went back to their outfit and told them what McClauliffe said, they couldn’t figure that out, nuts what that meant. Meant for them to go to hell, we, we just wasn’t going to give up. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: And we made it through that, lost a lot of buddies. After that they pulled us back into southern Germany. South of Munich, and… sent us to, down to Landsberg where that concentration camp was. Landsberg. And we liberated them people, that was the most sickening thing I’ve ever seen in my life. They had these big barrels there of false teeth that had gold in them, and they’d… take their teeth out and pile them in them. And then they’d put people in these gas chambers, women and children, they thought they was gonna get to take a bath, and they’d turn the gas loose on them, killed them in there. And then they’d put them in these furnaces and things and… cook them. And that place stunk so, they finally gave us some things to go over our nose and mouth, to keep that smell down. And them poor people was eat up with body lice, and they come holding their arms out wanting to hug us, we’d just have to back away from them. I was so sorry for them, they were Jews, Polish, Czechs, different nationalities they had there in that concentration camp. And… we killed the Germans out around the perimeter, you know, where they had that. And this… they was a building right across from us and, ‘ka ping ka ping’ they was shooting at us, and I spotted him in an upstairs window and I blowed him all to pieces. I was, at that time I was a 60 millimeter mortarman. And we come back in to Germany and… there was a river that run down through here. My buddies was down here dug in right beside the river, and I was shooting over their heads at them Germans that morning. And I had to move it I don’t how many times, me and the other guy did, took two men. And I was a feeding that mortar so fast that throwed one in and one was coming out! And that one coming down hit that last one I’d thrown in and it went ‘zup zup.’ I’ve got books that’d tell you the whole story. And it went down, they heard it coming, making a yodeling noise. But it hit in the water, didn’t hit them. And this guy, Donald Barrugut wrote this book… Said ole Gene, old Thomas come closer to killing us than the Germans did. Well I finally got zeroed in on them over there across the river, and I knocked them German guns out, and got a Bronze Star for that. And… then we went on in to Austria, cleaned the Germans out of there. We first went into Salzburg, and then on up to… what was the name of that little old place… And we fought up there, then they brought us back to, into Germany to Berchetesgarten for a rest, you know. And we seen this boxcar setting on the side track. And had big cables, it, it was sealed, sealed up. The car was, the railroad car. Some of the guys got some big cutters and �hacksaws and we cut that seal off of that box car. And it was loaded with gold bricks, all in that thing. And we was studying about how could we get to Switzerland, or bury it and come back after the war. (Rob laughs) And he made us quit, Colonel Sinks did, said that don’t belong to you. And they was some salt mines there, and old Goering, he had all kind of stuff in them salt mines. Pictures and everything, that they’d took off of the Polish and all them. And we was wondering how we could get that to Switzerland, or digged up. And then… we went back into where we was at in Berchetesgarten and… then Roosevelt died. He was in Warm Springs, Georgia, you know. I seen guys break down and cry about it but… He, he was a good President, I was, I mean, I was raised a Republican, you know, and he was a Democrat, but I’d have voted for him again if he’d of run, you know. It didn’t make no diference, I just voted for the ones I thought done the best job, in the Presidential elections, been that way ever since. But, they fell us out one morning there, this was in 1945, and they fell all the NCO’s out one morning and we didn’t know what they was gonna do with us. They finally told us to, we gonna send you to Breruth (?) and take constabulary training to guard those war criminals in Nuremburg. And they sent us down there, and we… had a big long haul getting down to the prison. And each one had a war criminal to watch after, kept a light a burning 24 hours a day. And then we had to record, had a clipboard there, every hour I looked in their cell, whether he was sleeping, or reading, or standing, or whatever. And then we had to go to the courtroom, and… I never seen so many lawyers in, in my life there. And they give them different sentences, on… what they had done you know, war criminals. And they hung ten, I watched that, there in the gymnasium. And… after that I was wanting to get out of Nuremburg. I’ve been there where Hitler, I’ve stood right where he made his speeches there at Soldier’s Field. And after that, I got to come home, I come home and stayed out 28 days. If I’d stayed out over 30 I’d have lost my rank. And I reenlisted. Put me on a bus at Spruce Pine and took me to Greenville, SC. Airbase down there. And I was sworn in again, and then from there I went to, over in the Pacific. I was in the… Marianas Islands, and then I was in… oh what was the name of that bunch of islands… oh anyway it was Kwajalein and Naniwetaw (?) and all them there. And then I come back to the States, and then the Korean War broke out. And I was at Ft. Lewis, Washington, and I was at Camp Carson too. Then up to Ft. Lewis. And they sent us to Japan, I mean we went to Kobe, Japan. And… then they fell us out and put us on a train to sent us all the way down to Sassibo (?), Japan. And we sailed from Sassibo to Pusan, Korea. And then we fought all the way up, all the way up to the Yalu River. And we come back down, the Chinese, we fought the Chinese there, and then at Koon Ri they come over on us again, and was about to over run us, the Chinese was. And they said it’s every man for himself, and there was an old weapons carrier sitting there, and they was a Turkish Brigade a fighting on our left down below us. And the British on the right. And we put that thing up on that railroad track, a bunch of us, about 5 got in it, and bump bump bump going down through there to where this Turkish Brigade was. We fought there, and then I finally got back with my outfit, I was in the 38th Regimental Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division. Then I got hit, we’d took this hill, and they overrun us there. And the next time we went back up I got hit. And they flew me from there to right out of Tokyo, to a hospital. And kept me there a long �time, and then finally flew me on to Walter Reed, and I had the awfulest seizures from that nick I got here in my head. Seizures, seizures, and they kept me there a long time. I didn’t want to come out… And they put me out, said I wasn’t fit you know, to… to… fight. And… stayed there a long time. I got to come home, and… I had the old women, they come and hugged me and told me son, we’ve prayed a many a night that God would bring you home. And I believe they did, and I made it home. And that wound up my military career. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Do you mind if I ask a couple of follow up questions? About… (Mr. Thomas shook head.) Rob Helton: Do you… Do you remember how much you were paid a month when you went and joined the Army? Mr. Thomas: It was about twenty seven dollars a month, I believe. Rob Helton: And then you got jump pay on top of that? Mr. Thomas: Yeah, fifty dollars as long as you was on jump status. Rob Helton: Was that… was that comparable to anything that you could have made in the States? Mr. Thomas: Well back then things was cheap, back in the early ‘40s and ‘50s. But I don’t’ regret it a bit, I’d go back tomorrow if they’d take me. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. When you, when you jumped into Normandy and Holland do remember what your jump kit consisted of? Mr. Thomas: What? Rob Helton: Your jump kit, your weapon and equipment? Mr. Thomas: Well, I jumped with a carbine rifle and a forty five pistol. But I was a mortarman, and I’d took training you know, to operate a mortar. And I got pretty good with that mortar buddy, I tell you. Till throwed that one in, that one was a coming out and it liked to killed my buddies. (Laughs) And I really liked to fire that thing, drop it in, bloop, shew. But it was something. But when I was in Korea I just had a rifle, I’ve fired a M1 rifle and a carbine till the whole side of my face would be blue. Them little Chinese was tough, I can say that. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Before the Korean War broke out, did you know where Korea was, or know anything about it? Mr. Thomas: Never heard tell of it. �Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Now when you… when you got into Korea do you remember what the, the date or the month? Mr. Thomas: It broke out in 1950 and we got there… it was… what… in July, first of July when we got there. And buddy it was rough, I tell you. Rob Helton: And, so you were there during the winter. Mr. Thomas: Yeah Rob Helton: Do you have memories that stand out from the winter fighting? Mr. Thomas: Yeah, I remember this old boy from Austin, Texas. They’d had a bunker there and we got in this bunker, it was cold. God it was cold. The moon was shining bright that night. We had trip flares set up down here at the foot of the hill, and… and if the gooks would come across then they’d hit that trip wire and just light up everything, you know. And my buddy, I kept hearing something a grinding and a chopping and he, he was in sleeping bag laying right behind me, and I was watching down there, which way we thought they was going to come in. And I kept hearing that noise, finally it got daylight and he says, he had false teeth. He’d pulled them out and laid them on a rock. And that rat had chewed his teeth! (Both laugh) Plum in two! That’s what I could hear, cause I knew if they come in down there they’d trip them trip flares. And his teeth just fell apart, his upper plate. And froze, and hungry, that, that was rough. We went hungry too during the Bulge, eat K rations whenever we could get them. But it was a rough go, I don’t want to go back to Korea. I’d love to go back to Germany and all them places where we fought, and Holland. Belgium. Austria. I thought Bavaria, down there in Southern Germany, was the prettiest country. It was pretty and… and different places, and then most towns was blowed all to pieces, you know. And… But they put us, after that they sent us to Bamberg, Germany. And it was time for me to come home, after the Nuremburg trials. And they sent me, we rode cattle cars from Bamberg, Germany to Laharre, France. And there we caught a ship, brought us back to the States. And, but I didn’t stay out but 28 days, you know, and back in there I went. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Before you got to the concentration camp, had you and the other soldiers, had you been told anything about concentration camps or ever been informed of… what was happening in those? Mr. Thomas: Oh yeah, yeah we knew what was a happening. And… that’s the most sickening thing, that I saw in the war, was them poor people. Lord, it was awful. And another thing, them SS troopers, I know you’ve heard of them. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. �Mr. Thomas: Up there at Malaby, Belgium. They took a whole bunch of our men that was prisoners of war, most of them was in the medical corps. Lined them up out in the field, snow on the ground, and had a German army truck here and they rolled the tarp up and they had a machine gun in there. Fifty caliber machine gun, and then they just started mowing them down, and they was two escaped, run through the woods and got away to tell the tale. Now this was back in Belgium. And I remember what McClauliffe told us, says don’t take no SS men prisoners. Says, you know what to do. We didn’t take no SS prisoners. We lowered the boom on them buddy. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: And a lot of them had our uniforms on, you know, behind our lines. Some spoke perfect English. They’d trained them when they was just young, and… Korea wound, wound me up though, I draw a little pension for getting hit. Rob Helton: Would you describe your wound from Korea? Mr. Thomas: Huh? Rob Helton: Would you describe how you were wounded in Korea? Mr. Thomas: Yeah. I’ve got a hernia right here that I’ve had that’s bothered me ever since. There was a pile of rocks there, and they was a shell hits them rocks and it throwed a rock and hit me right there. And then next I got shot threw the hand, and then when I got my head busted, that’s when they sent me to Japan. And then I wound up in Walter Reed. And… kept me up there a long time, I’d have them seizures, I’d be just like sailing through a tunnel or something. And I could see a light, and then they’d, they, they give me all kinds of medication for it. And I finally got to where I could think some, you know. And… And, it bothered me a lot. And they put me out. Rob Helton: So, obviously, it’s on the other side of the world, but how was the fighting in Korea different from Europe during the Second World War? Mr. Thomas: Well, it was different, because… you know just a regular German soldier, he was like us, he had to fight. And… I’ve… well it says thou shall not kill, but I killed a lot of people, but it was in uniform, you know. And, I used to have the awefulest nightmares in the world. And… I’d… come out of the bed, my wife couldn’t sleep for me, you know. And I’d dream the enemy was coming in on me, and my bullets just come to the end of the barrel and dropped down on the ground. And me a slugging it out with them with a bayonet. Now we had to do that, in World War Two, fix bayonets. And… I’ve, I’ve rammed them so hard I’d have to shoot my rifle to get my bayonet out of them. But, it bothered me, one of my buddies come to see me, he was from down in Hudson, below, there out of Lenoir. Thad Tungmire (?). And he come to see me, my wife told him about how I was having them nightmares. �And he talked to me, he said Thomas, I’m going to tell you one thing. He said, if you don’t start talking about that, and get it out of you, you’ll go plum crazy. And I was crazy enough! (Both laugh) Way it was. But, I survived. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. So after you got out of the Army, what did you do then? Mr. Thomas: Started trucking. Yeah I run… out to California, Oregon, Washington, into Vancouver, British Columbia. And up in Canada, and up to LaChute, Canada, which is right out of Montreal. And then… then I’d run up to Peterburg, Canada. And I had a contract to haul the stuff up there. And… then I come back and I just kept trucking. Made good money. I’d bring home a thousand dollars a week. And one week I’d put it in savings, and the next week I’d put it in checking. But buddy, I run out across them deserts and didn’t have no air conditions, no power steering back then. And all I wanted to do was drink water. And we had a, we had a Lister bag I’d hang on the front of my bumper, to keep the water cool, and we suffered, and I laid right with it till I retired. Drove 57 years. (Recorder almost falls) Rob Helton: Excuse me. Are you a member of any veteran’s organizations? Mr. Thomas: Yes, sir. I’m a lifetime member in the Veteran’s of Foreign Wars and I’m a lifetime member in the DAV, Disabled Veterans. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. And you’re also a member of the Honor Guard? Mr. Thomas: Yes, sir. I’m on the Honor Guard, been on it a long time. Well I’m the oldest man on the Honor Guard, I was there when they formed it in the VFW. And we’ve done a great job, we’ve went all the way to Charlotte, and down to South Carolina, burying veterans everywhere. And a lot of my buddies is dead, they’re gone, they’ve been dying lately here. We watched this DVD of one of my friends, last night. He died down at Johnson City at the VA Hospital. And Georgia and I’d go see him. And he fought in Italy, and war is hell, I can say that. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Have you participated in any reunions or other events? Mr. Thomas: …No. I had a chance to go to reunions, you know, of the 101st Airborne, but I never did go. Then I was invited to come to Bush’s Inaguaration, and stay in the Mayflower hotel, have livery, limousine service to the President’s ball and dinner. And all that. And… I just didn’t go. So, then the next, I got them in my car out there, they wrote old letters, they invited me to come and sit four days in the Senate circle to represent the state of North Carolina. (Both laugh) Rob Helton: Now you also spoke at Appalachian’s World War Two symposium this year? �Mr. Thomas: I did, I sure did. Mrs. Thomas: Oh that’s another thing, you remember that… Mr. Thomas: World War Two… Mrs. Thomas: Round table. Veteran’s Round Table. Mr. Thomas: Yeah, over in Boone. Mrs. Thomas: That round table over there. Mr. Thomas: Yeah, we have meetings every month. Mrs. Thomas: Been there since it started. Mr. Thomas: And… Had me on television. Georgia was with me when they had me on television. If we had time I’d like to show you all of that, but I don’t guess you’ve got time. Rob Helton: Well we’ll see sir. Is there anything else that you can think of that we’ve left out? Mr. Thomas: Well, I know I’ve, I’ve left something out… My brain don’t work like it used to. (Both laugh) But… I was out there to fight for my country, and I put my heart and soul into it. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Well sir, I’d like to thank you for conducting this interview and also thank you for your service. Mr. Thomas: Well I want to thank you too. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas: Proud of you. Rob Helton: Yes, sir. And this concludes the interview. Mr. Thomas: Alright. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/900f1dd7e11266b1ebb82b9c9aef150b.mp3 cde09afffe5e012260f74c4ec939e30a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Thomas, Gene Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Helton, Rob Interview Date 10/12/2012 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:10:22 File name 2013_063_Thomas_Gene_interview 2013_063_Thomas_Gene_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gene Thomas, 12 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Helton, Rob Thomas, Gene Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans Thomas, Gene Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Gene Thomas of Avery County gives his somewhat glorified account of his service in WWII and the Korean War. He fought all over Europe against the Germans, and preferred it to the Korean War. He was shot in the head in the Korean War and has been part of the DAV ever since. Avery County basic training C47 concentration camp DAV Fort Bragg France Gene Thomas Korean War mortar parachute regiment Roosevelt St. Mere Iglis WWII https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a78400ad986eed4ab3335fc4d19d88c2.pdf ac09beb04244f1ad3c4bf4276873042d PDF Text Text John Curnes Military History 3823-Dr. Browning Transcript of Oral History Interview with Don Sutherland March 8, 2010 Recorded in Palm Springs, CA John Curnes: Okay, this is John Curnes interviewing Don Sutherland at the Palm Springs World War II Museum Airport and he' s just going to tell us about his experience. Don Sutherland: Ok. The Germans were very famous for their deadly frontal attacks and what they would do; they would come at you nose to nose. About a thousand yards out, they would turn upside down and fire a 20mm cannon at the front of the plane trying to blow it up. And while they are still upside down, they would just split off down like through our formation and that is when it became my turn as the ball turret gunner, which I will come back to. This is what the Germans were shooting at us. This is a 20mm cannon with an explosive warhead, and this is what we were shooting back at them with, a 50 caliber machine gun. Our machine guns were somewhat effective and that will be explained up there. On the ball turret gunner the first question that everyone wants to know is how do I get in, and when do I get in? First let me say that from the radio room back there are four gunners only: the ball turret, the two waist, and the tail. And no gunner was at his position during takeoff or landing. We were all inside the radio room for the center of gravity purposes. And then after we get up to about to 8 to 10,000 feet then we put in our oxygen masks, plug in our main source of oxygen, plug in a heater cord when, this plane wasn' t pressurized but that will be explained up there, and we were ready to go to work. Now to get in, what I do is I rotate that ball around so that the two guns are pointed to the right side of the plane. Thus it puts that little opening of the hatch on the left side of the plane. Then I rotate the ball 90 degrees so the guns were straight down of the ground simultaneously bringing the opening of the hatch up inside the plane. Then I stand on a little ledge on the left side of the plane then I have gravity in my favor to lower myself down into the fetus position. Ha if you were to go over there now and get down on your knees and look up high in front of you, you would see two metal half-moon clamps, that's what my heels are sitting in, and the left leg also worked the range. But to save your knees and time, I will show you forward. Right in front of my fmger, you will see the bottom of my shoe. John Curnes: wow Don Sutherland: Now in the fourteen years I have been at this museum I have had a lot of people refer to me as being nuts. �John Curnes: (John laughing) Don Sutherland: I am crazy. That has to be a suicide mission, that has to be the most dangerous job on the whole plane. I have heard them all, I disagree with them all. And I will clarify by simple saying this: I feel that all ten men on this plane is just as vulnerable as the next guy, it just depends upon where you are at that split second, because here the Germans were shooting flak up at us from the ground, they are trying to blow the framing off with a 20mm. They were also famous for their side attacks. Their bullets would go through this aluminum with no problem. A lot of radiomen and waist gunners got hit. But all that silver that you see down there, the entire ball is made of steel and reinforced Plexiglas. So if a bullet is at the right angle it deflects and keeps on going. John Curnes: Urn-Hum Don Sutherland: Flak, flak again would go through this aluminum very easily. All nine men up there had to wear a steel helmet and a flak vest. But then again that steel would protect against flak unless it hit the Plexiglas then that could be a new story. Now in the morning after everyone would suit up, the last article they would put on is their parachute harness, but they would hand carry their chest pack parachute around with them. If you are walking to the front of the plane for any reason you always had that parachute in your hand. However the ball turret gunners which I was, we were the only ones that had a choice. And I chose to wear the backpack version. Now the backpack parachute' s a little bit smaller which means you fall a little bit faster, especially if you' re a little bit heavier. Don Sutherland: But I never had that problem. And no I never jumped so don' t ask. (John Laughs) Folded up it was like a three inch mattress. So therefore what I do is remove the back bumper brace which you see in plane and would lay directly against that steel door which made me very comfortable laying down on the job. But to be serious. Say the plane did get us up into some trouble and the pilot hits the ball out button. There are basically only two ways out. Here or the exit way back there. If the bomb bay doors happen to be open you could go through those. If there was a big hole in the side of the plane maybe you could jump out through that too. But picture this you' ve got nine other guys all up there in a state of panic, Get me out of here first, no me first! I mean its human nature. Here I am sitting all by myself with my hands above my head holding on to my pistol grips. Now let me explain this, the pistol grips serves as the same purpose as the steering wheel on your car. One pistol grip makes the ball revolve 360 degrees round. The other makes the guns go up and down 90 degrees. It's all hydraulic and electrically driven and believe me they were very sensitive to the touch. Ok, so again my hands are up here on my steering wheel ..... all I have to do is remove my two thumbs reach back turn two levers and the door falls open and I'm out with it. John Curnes: Hm-Hum �.. .. Don Sutherland: Now can anyone here convince me that that is the most dangerous part in the whole plane? I mean sure a round can come up and make a direct hit on me, just because why, because I was at the wrong place at the wrong second. But I would rather have that steel wrapped around me than this. John Curnes: Urn hum. Did you practice parachuting out of the ball turret? Don Sutherland: No, in gunnery school we did not. We were told how to use them but we never actually jumped off a high tower. But what we did have for the ball turret gunners was this. We had a mock up of these things, with all of the controls attached to show us how to get in and out, which pistol grip worked which, and all that kind of stuff. Then eventually we shot at stationary targets and then eventually we got in a real live plane and we shot at a towing target. And if anyone makes the mistake and shoots that pilot, we are in trouble. John Curnes: laughs. And that shot 9mm rounds? Don Sutherland: No, they are all 50 caliber. John Curnes: All 50 caliber? Don Sutherland: All thirteen guns in this plane are 50 caliber. All made by the Browning machine gun company. Each gun was capable of shooting off 14 rounds a second. Can you imagine one second? I can't even move my hand fourteen times in one second. Now every fifth bullet was a tracer bullet. Tracer bullet leaves that little trail of white smoke so you that you can see what you are aiming at and they were painted black on the tip. Next to that there were two red ones which were phosphorus for starting fires. Next to that was two blue ones which were armor piercing. Then again the fifth one which was a tracer bullet. So if a gunner held his fmger on the trigger for only five seconds, 70 of these things would have gone out there with every fifth one as a tracer. In my case I had dual guns, so that's a 140 rounds in five seconds with every fifth one as a tracer. Remember that German plane that I told you was upside down going through our formation? He is going some 300 miles plus in one direction. We're going almost 200 in the other direction. So with that kind of firepower and all those tracers its unbelievable if I get to hit him. But again the Germans were also smart by adding extra armament on the very bottom side of their plane. So if tried aiming at the center of the plane with the hopes of getting the pilot in the fantail, I am wasting my time, so we were always trained to aim for their engine or the wings where the gas tanks are. Shoot the tail off. And last but not least is the muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity simply means that as each bullet leaves the tip ofthe barrel they are travelling at the speed of 1977 miles per hour, or 2900 feet in one second. Now if you were to double that, that's over a mile in two seconds. Can you imagine that? �John Curnes: Wow. Don Sutherland: That' s really travelling. John Curnes : Urn-Hum. Don Sutherland: I understand also that if there is no trees and bushes and that around, you know, flat land, one mile away, a man could stand or, and this could still get you and kill you. John Curnes: Urn-hum. Wow. That's a lot of them. Don Sutherland: That's a lot of firepower. You get one, two, three, maybe even four gunners all aiming at the same target, shooting off fourteen rounds a second, hopefully someone' s gonna get hit. And I guess that' s why they referred to this plane as the Flying Fortress. John Curnes: Wow. Don Sutherland: When this plane was fust designed in 1935 they actually believed that it was indestructible. John Curnes: Urn-Hum. Don Sutherland: But we soon learned after the beginning of the war the plane was not indestructible. John Curnes: Urn-Hum. Don Sutherland: The Germans were excellent fighter pilots. They had excellent planes and they knew how to use them. Because by that time, they've already had three years of experience tucked under their belts. But until we got fighter escort over to Berlin and back, then is when we gained air superiority and eventually Germany surrendered. John Curnes: Urn-Hum. Did you ever experience the ME jet that the Germans had? Don Sutherland: No, because I got over there at the tail end of the war. I saw my action in Korea on the ground. John Curnes: Okay. Don Sutherland: I will say this though. It was a ball turret gunner on the B-17 that shot down the fust German jet. John Curnes: Oh wow. Do you think the, did the, did the jet planes use that same tactic where they rolled over and Don Sutherland: Yep. �: John Curnes: Go through the ... Don Sutherland: Yep. Because if you, well first of all, travelling at 300 miles an hour you better get out of the way pretty soon. To do this, this, this, (gesturing), I meant that's hard to do. When you are upside down you just roll and go on. And also they had extra armament on the bottom. If they didn' t turn upside down, one of our gunners could hit the pilot in the head. John Curnes: Urn-Hum. Don Sutherland: So, that' s why. But the Germans, they did they same, same thing. John Curnes: Did you uh, did you ever, so they didn't use the B-17 during the Korean War? Don Sutherland: No. John Curnes: No. Don Sutherland: No. After Germany surrendered, they sent all the B-17s home to Kingman, Arizona to be re-chopped up and melted down. I took this picture myself in 1947. This is up at Kingman, Arizona. Now the picture really should be larger, but there is 8000 of these planes waiting there to be melted down. John Curnes: Hum. John Curnes: Yeah, looks like palm springs. Don Sutherland: This is Kingman, Arizona. That' s the gunnery school that I went to. John Curnes: Now did have a., did you name your plane? Don Sutherland: I didn' t no. The pilot names the plane. John Curnes: Mhmm. What was your planes name? Don Sutherland: Ah it was called "Dry Martini and the Cocktail Kids," because you see the pilot has, hes the captain, just liked the captain of a boat. So he gets to name his own plane. And now his last name just happened to be Martini. So he named the plane at frrst "The Dry Martini" and the emblem instead of painting a girl on it he painted a cocktail glass and that was it "The Dry Martini" that's it. John Curnes: Mhmm. Don Sutherland: But everybody else wanted in on the action too, so they called it "The Dry Martini and the Cocktail Kids" John Curnes: That' s Funny. �: John Curnes: Well thank you very much. Don Sutherland: You are welcome. Picture 1: B-17 "Miss Angela" In WWII Air Museum Palm Springs, CA Picture 2: Front ofthe B-17 Flying Fortress �Picture 3: Ball Turret Gun Picture 4: Don Sutherland Holding a 20mm cannon bullet alongside a 50mm bullet shell. �Picture 4: Inside the radio room of a B-17 �.. •. Picture 5: Rear view of the B-17. Picture 6: Ball Turret � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0c022a900b97c793a5c5b344aa5cbefe.MP3 e1f6df854f1da555aedf65853da7387f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Sutherland, Don Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Curnes, John Interview Date 3/8/2010 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:46 File name 2013_063_Sutherland_Donald_interview 2013_063_Sutherland_Don_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Don Sutherland, 8 March 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Curnes, John Sutherland, Don Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 9 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Palm Springs Air Museum World War, 1939-1945 Veterans Sutherland, Don Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Don Sutherland describes his experiences with the B17 Flying Fortress in a museum in Palm Springs. Thought to be indestructible in 1935, it played a large part in defeating the German fighter pilots. B17 Flying Fortress ball turret Don Sutherland flak gunnery school Palm Springs Museum Airport tracer bullet https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0ccb842014d24bfa48e576888d65f28c.pdf 9ebe8f31c5ccaeeecb9a7f422eaf0eb4 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Cadet Jacob Smith. October 10, 2012 Boone, NC Holly Sovine: I’m Holly Sovine and I’m here with Jacob Smith, former enlisted infantry soldier, conducting an oral history project for military history. Let’s get started. Where were you born and raised? Jacob Smith: I was born right here in North Carolina, in High Point, North Carolina, raised in the Triad area. Sovine: And when is your birthday? Smith: Born June 12, 1987. Sovine: When and why did you choose to join the military? Smith: Joining the military was something I always wanted to do since I was a kid. I kind of flip flopped of course, as kids do, about what branch I wanted to do, there were times I wanted to be in the Marines or in the Navy. I know, even in the navy or be in the air force. [Laughter] But ultimately, as I grew up and matured and everything and it really started to come in that seriously I could do this if I wanted the Army is what best suited me. So that’s why I did that. Sovine: Okay. Is there any kind of family history of military service? Smith: No, not that I know of. I think my grandfather was in the navy for a short time when he was a younger man but other than that there’s no long family history of that’s the tradition or anything, no. Sovine: What are some memorable basic training experiences you had? Smith: Memorable basic training. I would say one would probably be when we used to do the bayonet course. We did that fairly early in our training and I remember that was the first time I felt like “wow” I’m really doing this I’m really becoming a soldier. Everything up to that point had been filling out papers and learning how to march. It just kind of…small things…it was the first time I was just like “wow” I’m going be an inftantryman and I’m going to do this and it was a big eye opening moment I had. Sovine: Okay, what are some other duty stations you had? Smith: After basic training I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, Washington as part of the first brigade 25th infantry. I wasn’t there very long though because at the time first brigade 25th was a striker brigade and the Army wanted a striker brigade to be permanently stationed in Europe so they chose our brigade and what we did was, over the course of a year, our brigade picked up personnel and equipment and moved across, pretty much across the �whole globe and were re-stationed to Vilseck, Germany and were re-flagged the second cavalry. The second cavalry’s history had always been in the European theater and the 25th has always been in the Pacific so they wanted to keep that kind of in that direction. Sovine: What does re-flagged mean? Smith: Re-flagged basically means they moved us and then they said “Ok, you are no longer the 25th infantry, you no longer wear the patch, you no longer have those unit designators, instead you are the second cavalry.” Sovine: Okay. Smith: It’s like when a football team moves and they change the name. Sovine: Oh, okay. [Laughter] Have you ever been deployed in a combat situation? Smith: Yes, I have been deployed to Operation Iraqi Freedom in August of 2007 to November of 2008. I was one of the first people that was part of the troop surge that President Bush enacted with more boots on the ground and longer deployments to bring stability to the country. I was one of the lucky few to be considered a part of that. In fact, he was giving a speech the day we got into Kuwait, we were kind of curious as to whether that was us or not. Sovine: And what was your whole deployment experience? Smith: Deployment is an experience all in its own; it’s hard to kind of compare it to anything else. At first we were deployed to Iraq and we were on victory based complex on camp striker and our main operation area was the Hadar area. While in Baghdad, it was troops in contact just about everyday. Everyday something happens somewhere. It was in Hadar that we lost the first six guys from our deployment. The first two died just from simple ricochets, bullets that bounce off something and just happen to catch them in the wrong place. The next three died from what we call HBeds which are basically house born IEDs. Booby-trapped houses, they rigged the buildings themselves to actually blow up if somebody walked in them. And then the last, Geiger, was on one of the main routes they had emplaced an EFP or energy focus propellant. Basically it’s using copper to penetrate through the slat armor of the striker and that’s when Geiger died. So then our total was up to six at the time. Then we moved as part of an operation to push Al Qaeda out of a certain area in the Diyala providence that coalition forces really hadn’t had a big presence in so it was kind of a safe haven for them. So our battalion who dove into the Diyala providence to meet up with the second infantry division that was already there and move with them to push Al Qaeda out of that particular area. And so, the beginning of the operation it was kind of like Iraq. There was somebody in contact everyday. But that’s where we lost the last six guys while on our deployment. The Recon platoon before, on the way, in the transition had struck an IED. No deaths. A few injuries and a vehicle was decommissioned because it was flatlined and it had to be majorly repaired before it could ever roll again so the Recon platoon was already down men and equipment and when they walked into a building Al �Qaeda had already had all four corners of the structure and the roof of first floor, the floor of the second floor, basically laid down with explosives. So when they walked in the entire structure blew up. Killed the platoon sergeant, two squad leaders, two team leaders, and a grenadier and injured a bunch of other guys. It basically combat ineffected that entire platoon with al the casualties and everything. [Sovine: Yeah] After that though, gloves came off. If we though that Al Qaeda was using any building at all for storage of equipment or using it as a hideout or anything like that, if we suspected that we made sure no one was around the immediate area and we’d drop 500 pound JM bombs off of an F15 on top of it. [Laughter] And so once we started blowing up houses Al Qaeda kind of backed off and we drove them out. And the rest of the deployment was…I don’t want to use the phrase “smooth sailing” but it was not constant contact everyday. Sovine: So did you or any other soldiers in your platoon receive any kind of awards? Smith: I personally didn’t, other than just an end of tour award that kind of everybody gets it. Kind of congratulations thank you for, you know the end of the deployment and everything. But a few of the guys did. A lot of Army Accommodation medals with valor and a lot of bronze stars all around for guys who did something heroic but I personally didn’t. Sovine: Okay. So how did you come to end up in Boone, North Carolina? Smith: After deployment, went back to Germany, finished out my year, and separated from the Army. I loved the Army. The Army was great to me but I always wanted to go to school. At the time, my wife she had just finished. By the time I had got done with the Army, my wife had just finished her bachelor’s degree here at Appalachian. And so she wanted to continue on to get her master’s degree and I wanted to start my undergrad so, and she specifically wanted to get it at Appalachian and I wanted to get it at Appalachian. They were good to her while she was here and I’d come and visit her a few times and I really enjoyed the area and I really liked the university. And so….[Long pause]…[Laughter] That’s why I’m here. Sovine: So how did you come to be a cadet with the ROTC program? Smith: You know being a cadet was a really hard decision. I had about a year from when I transitioned out of the Army to when I started school and I really wasn’t sure if I wanted to do it. But I signed up for the class and started taking it and kind of did to keep my face…to put my foot in the door but I really wasn’t sure if I wanted to commit. I toyed with a lot of emotions. There were days where being in the Army was great, you were completing the mission you had a clear assignment of what your objective was and what you were doing and it made you feel accomplished and good, but then there were days when you really just kind of didn’t like what was going on. It’s like any other job you know? I really had a hard time with making a decision to become a cadet. I did a lot of self-reflection, a lot of you know praying to myself, I thought to talk to my wife and everything. Getting in with the program and getting back in the feel of the Army and deliberating with my wife I decided I wasn’t done with the Army and that was the best decision for us. �Sovine: Good good. All right, well is there anything else you’d like to include in the interview that we haven’t covered? Smith: It’s not so much now that the Iraq war is dwindling down but at the time, when we were there we used to watch the news and the news used to kind of make what was going on over there sound much worse than what it was so I used to tell people all the time when they asked me how it was take what you watch on the news but scale it back some. Any time anyone gets into contact or anything ever happens a report is filed obviously and so one thing we would do is we’d watch the news and hear about something…gunfire where ever in some province and we were like “okay” and we’d go back and we’d go and we’d dig up you know and find the report from the actions that happened and everything and the news would make it out to be some massive fire fight and really it was just some guy leaned out of his window with his AK and popped a few rounds off and then coalition forces just shot the crap out of the side of the house. I mean it’s really not as bad as what it sounded as the news was making it out to be so yeah they would kind of blow things out of proportion and not only that but you got to keep in perspective that when…I would tell people keep in perspective that when you hear on the news everyday “more gunfire more this and more that,” it’s not happening to the same people. Iraq’s a big country. That’s like saying that crime is happening across America, well yeah but America’s a big country. [Laughter] Somewhere in the country it’s going to be happening but it’s not all happening in the same little town. So you know it would be hours of…minutes of pure adrenaline you know when something happened, but then you’d go hours and days without anything. It would go like a week or so and you’d be thinking to yourself “God, I wish somebody would shoot at me just so I’d have something to do.” [Laughter] “I’m tired of just driving around and walking around just kind of making my presence known.” You know I used to always tell them, the news they question a lot you know why we’re there and everything else but until you’ve actually stood there and you’ve fought the enemy but not only that you’ve helped build the infrastructure, you’ve helped the locals, you’ve made their life better, you’ve started to establish them and get them back to a state of normalcy…until you’ve actually done that you see the positive change you know the positive change and all the good things we did no matter how minor they were that’s not what makes the news. It’s always the bad stuff. So until you’ve actually stood there…you didn’t…I could understand where they would question it but you really just don’t know. Sovine: All right, well I want to thank you for your time and this was a great interview. Thank you. Smith: Thank you. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/15e80041c2eb220296a7798fded4381e.mp3 372a7121d89471962c3739bd2eac4d58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Smith, Jacob Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Sovine, Holly Interview Date 10/10/2012 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:27 File name 2013_063_Smith_Jacob_interview 2013_063_Smith_Jacob_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jacob Smith, 10 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sovine, Holly Smith, Jacob Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 4 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Veterans Smith, Jacob Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Jacob Smith, born in 1987, talks about his work with Operation Iraqi Freedom. He fought against Al Qaeda and explains that it wasn't as bad as the news makes it out to be. 25th infantry Al Qaeda bayonet cadet Jacob Smith Milennial Generation Operation Iraqi Freedom ROTC striker brigade https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/016ad9b4879f4bba6acb5247cbb5dcb2.pdf 3358cf76746340071551dc9b982fd3fb PDF Text Text Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Transcript of Oral History Interview with Ken Shabhaz. March 13th, 2011 Greensboro, NC Borowicz: So, you were in the Air Force, correct? Shabhaz: Yes, I was in the Air Force from 1968 to 1973. Borowicz: Okay, just for the record, we're interviewing Ken Shabhaz. It's March 13 1\ and we're in his office in Greensboro, NC. As he stated, he was in the Air Force from 1968 to 1973. Shabhaz: Yes, '68 to '73. Borowicz: So, roughly, the end of the Vietnam war era? Shabhaz: Exactly. Borowicz: Okay, were you drafted or did you enlist? Shabhaz: I had four draft notices, and went with the Air Force. Borowicz: So, weren't drafted by the Air Force? Shabhaz: Well, the army drafts you, but I was trying to get into the Navy. The Air Force had openings first, so I ended up in the Air Force. Borowicz: Okay. Shabhaz: My two armed guards took me to my last physical, or else they would have put me in the Marines. Borowicz: Oh yeah, I would have gone for the Navy as well. Where was the farthest you were stationed from home? Shabhaz: The farthest from home was Sacramento. Borowicz: So, that was nice that you got to stay in the country. Shabhaz: I got to stay in the country in the middle of the Vietnam war, so it was great. Borowicz: What were your duties during that time? I know you dealt with money and payroll at some point. Shabhaz: Well, at first they tried to make a navigator of me, then a pilot out of me, but they were unsuccessful there, so I ended up a supply officer. I was stationed at Montgomery, Alabama for most of my tour, where I was the base supply officer. Borowicz: What did that entail? Shabhaz: Well, the base supply officer was in charge of anything that was expendable, so all the parts and pieces that go on at an Air Force base, other that the furniture and equipment, I was responsible for. Borowicz: So, what kind of rank do you get for that? Shabhaz: Well, in the Air Force, it was a matter of so long of a period of time, so when I went in, I was a Second Lieutenant. I did the 90 day "wonder crash course" at San Antonio. Borowicz: What's that? Shabhaz: Well, that's the basic training for officers. Officers have a couple of routes. Sometimes, folks are in ROTC or some other activity, but otherwise, they have a basic training that's 90 days, and you come out a Second Lieutenant. That' s the route I ended up going, in the middle of winter, in San Antonio, Texas. Borowicz: Had you already had a college degree before that? �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Shabhaz: Yes. Generally, at that point you had to have a college degree, so I had already graduated. And, as I said, I already had a couple of draft notices, so I was picking and choosing where I was going to end up. Borowicz: I remember you telling me a story when I think you were in charge of payroll or something ....... when you counted money so long one day, ---Shabhaz: Well, yeah. A lot of interesting things happened. I ended up with special duty and we had to give a surprise cash count, and it was the day they did payroll at the finance office. I was a finance officer, so they wanted me to go in there and count the money. Generally, at that time, they paid most of the military in cash. So, there was seven million dollars in cash in small denominations, that me and two other NCO ' s counted for three hours, and sat there and thumbed through cash. Borowicz: Wow! That's a lot of cash. I had remembered that you said your fingers turned green after awhile. Shabhaz: Yeah, fingers and hands turned green from handling all that money, and besides that, we had a lot of angry people waiting for their paychecks. Borowicz: Now, did you have to go through the regular boot camp as well, for regular training? Shabhaz: No, no training for the officers was kind of the same, similar objectives as the basic training of the enlisted but, how do I say this, kind of more book learning kind of stuff rather that the physical stuff. The Air Force was by far one of the better ones to choose, at that time anyway. Borowicz: So, more of classes than training? Shabhaz: Yeah, classrooms and more of management type things, and how the Air Force and the military is structured. It' s kind of general information. It kept us kind ofbusy. On the drill pad, we spent one or two hours a day. That was always lots of fun. Borowicz: That's one of the things I never understood, the formation drillings. It doesn' t seem to -----Shabhaz: Well, the idea there is basically discipline. Borowicz: Obedience? Shabhaz: Yeah, it's a kind of discipline working as a unit. As officers, we took turns leading the group. Ifthis was an enlisted group, they' d never be leading the group, so we ended up taking turns to lead and march a whole squad. I don't remember how many guys were in it but, when you turned around and saw a lot of people coming at you, right on your heels. Borowicz: So, you said this was in San Antonio? Shabhaz: San Antonio is where I started my basic training. That was 90 days there, then I was scheduled to go into navigator school, which was in Sacramento. So, they gave me a couple of weeks off. I went home for a week or so, and then drove from Detroit to Sacramento and reported out there for navigating school. Borowicz: And you were stationed on Sacramento for most of the war? Shabhaz: No. I spent about nine months there, and didn' t pass navigation school, so I ended up out of navigator school. Then they wanted to send me to pilot school, from the back seat of the F-4 to the front seat of the F-4. I said, "No thanks", and that' s when they decided to send me to Montgomery, Alabama, to be the base supply officer there. �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Borowicz: What did that entail? Were there a lot of people involved in the war effort in Montgomery, because I feel that most ofthe stuff would be on the West Coast? Shabhaz: Yeah, Montgomery, Alabama was a cushy job to get in the middle of Viet Nam. It was one base, one command. It was the Air War College, basically officers in the Air Force that were the rank of Major, that wanted to become Leutenent or higher, then they basically spent six to nine months there at Maxwell Air Force base to get their master's degree. Most of them ended up getting their master's degree in business administration. So we really didn't have any airplanes assigned to our base, there was over 800 officers there when I got on the base. I had to share my BOQ room for the first two weeks with a one star general cause that was the lowest rank they could find for me to share a room with. So it was a rather unusual place to be. I ended up being in charge of 70 personnel, most of them civilians at that base because once again it wasn;t a heavy war kind of effort. So it was not a bad place to spend the next three years. Borowicz: Doesn't sound bad at all. Shabhaz: No it wasn't, I was most fortunate. I ended up, they sent me to Supply School in Denver, Colorado in the peak of ski season, I'm not a skier but I ended up being the designated driver when we went to the ski resort. So that was an interesting three months there. And shortly after returning from that Linda [his wife] and I got married in april of 1970. Borowicz: Did you meet her in college before? Shabhaz: Yeah, we had met in college and we were engaged. Part of it when you're looking at Vietnam is you're uncertain of where you're going to end up at. But when it looked like I was going to end up at Montgomery, Alabama we decided to get married. Borowicz: So I assume you guys were able to keep in touch pretty well since you were here. Shabhaz: Oh yeah Borowicz: And with your parents and everything? Shabhaz: Yeah, I mean writing. Back then most of it was still written communication, cause telephone was too expensive and the Internet hadn 't come around yet. Borowicz: Yeah no cell phones or anything yet. Shabhaz: No, no cell phones just yet. Borowicz: So most of the stuff, like the supplies, you did on the base, was that for food and uniforms? Like suppliesShabhaz: It covered everything. It covered mechanical parts although we did have a large fleet of aircraft assigned to the base, it was a popular place to get your aircraft repaired. The Air National Guard for example, was real big back then in the South, so some planes would be brought in from out lying areas, because we had the capacity to repair them. Borowicz: I didn't know the National or State Guard had planes. Shabhaz: Oh yeah, the National Guard had planes, cause we were sitting at that time in the South, and a lot of the concern was from Cuba and other places as well. It was a popular place to bring a broken airplane, because we had two of the best golf courses in the country. So, if you had to spend a couple of days in one place, you could always play golf. Borowicz: Yeah, that sounds really nice. What was the food like on the base? �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Shabhaz: The food, well, for an officer. . .I generally ate at the officer' s club, which was great. It was like going to Greensboro ' s Country Club and having dinner all the time. Borowicz: So, you said the people there were one star generals or above? Shabhaz: Well, they were majors or higher, as far as the officers were concerned. Borowicz: So, most people there were officers? Shabhaz: Well, the majority of the military were officers, and there were a lot of civilians as well. Most of the running of the base was done by civilians. I'm not sure what our population mix was, but we probably only had 25 to 30% military, it was mostly civilians. Then, the air college itself had a lot of military itself, but once again, it was major rank or above. That's what all the Generals were around for, it was basically the teaching. They teach classes, they' d come in and teach maybe a six week period, and then move on to something else. That's why the officers quarters ended up with a lot of Generals in them. Then, once Linda and I got married, we basically moved off base, that' s what we did. So, I had to learn to eat her cooking. Borowicz: You were stationed there for the rest of your service. Shabhaz: Yes, ended up there for three and a half years, so was fortunate that part of the program they offered on the base was from Auburn University, so I signed up for that as well, and ended up taking some of my classes on base and off base. I had so much to do, but managed to go to school full-time and be in the military. Borowicz: Sound like a busy schedule. Shabhaz: It worked out very well. In fact, when the war started to wind down, they wanted to give me an early out, but I said "You can't, I still have a semester left". And at Maxwell, at that point, once again, it was the base that ended up with the prisoners of war, you know, the POW' s, the one' s that finally got released after the war, because once again, it had so many amenities, it was pretty much like a country club. Borowicz: Did you come into contact with any of them, or no? Shabhaz: No. Borowicz: Just a different part of the base? Shabhaz: No, well that happened just after I had gotten out. The war was just ending when I was getting out, and the prisoner release was three to four months after that. Borowicz: So, you said it was a voluntary leave at the end? Shabhaz: Yeah. Borowicz: Just stuck around and got your education? Shabhaz: Right Borowicz: What did you get your degree in from Auburn, did you say? Shabhaz: I ended up with my Masters Degree in Economics, basically. I had gotten my Bachelors Degree from Aquinas College in Business and Accounting, so what they offered was a government administration or business administration kind of classes, so I took those. Borowicz: And you said that, or like when you were released, I guess released was a bad word ... Shabhaz: No, that' s not a bad word. Borowicz: Well, when you were done--Shabhaz: Finished the tour �Paul Borowicz HIS 3823-101 Borowicz: So, when you finished the tour, was it hard for you to go from that kind of life to civilian life, or was it like you already said, you were living offthe base with your wife? Shabhaz: No, the hard part at the time, was that there were a lot of other folks getting out of the military at that time, so it was a job situation. So, we spent the next four months after we got out of the military, traveling around doing job interviews. I got out in, what was it, December, and so we'd find somebody to pay room and board to for a night or two, and we'd travel the South in the middle of winter doing job interviews and ended up in Greensboro, a lot by chance. Borowicz: Well, I'm glad you're here. Shabhaz: Thank-you. Borowicz: Do you still have any close friendships with anyone you served with? Do you keep in contact with anyone? Shabhaz: Well, there was one individual that turned out to be most unusual. I don't know if you remember Father Ken Boyack? Borowicz: No. Shabhaz: He was a Paulist priest, and it turned out that he was stationed in the military at the same time. He was in a different section of the supply area at the same time, in the equipment area, the heavier items. But, it turned out that he and I kind of knew each other, you know, we socialized, but then I don't know, what was it, ten, fifteen years later, he shows up at St. Paul's Catholic Church as a priest. Borowicz: Wow, was he a chaplain in the service? Shabhaz: No, he was just another supply officer in the service, and he decided to become a priest, after or during his service, I'm not sure. I'm not too sure of the situation. But, he's the only one from military service days I've ever kept up with. Borowicz: Where's he at now? Shabhaz: He's up in D.C. We talk when he's down here. We get Christmas cards, and do that kind of stuff. He's in charge of a lot of their outreach programs .... Borowicz: Are you in any Veteran's organization of any type? Shabhaz: No, not really. The Boy Scouts is the closest thing I guess, but I've not maintained any kind of interest in that. Borowicz: Well, I think that's just about it. Thank you so much for your interview tonight. Shabhaz: You're welcome, it was a pleasure. Thank you Paul. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4cee11b31bc5557d53b378fd22c140e6.mp3 037152c569a2e485cee56bbf5cb58bd4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Shabhaz, Ken Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Borowicz, Paul Interview Date 3/13/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:17:18 File name 2013_063_Shahbaz_Ken_interview 2013_063_Shabhaz_Ken_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Shabhaz, 13 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Borowicz, Paul Shabhaz, Ken Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Shabhaz, Ken Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Ken Shabhaz recounts his service in the Air Force as a base supply officer in Montgomery, Alabama. He served for a few years in the Vietnam War and then went back to school for Economics. He never was stationed outside the United States but was moved around to several different cities. Air Force base supply officer Ken Boyack Ken Shabhaz Lieutenant Montgomery National Guard POW US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9e0f3ee6ed13111fa76eaccf2b6488e5.pdf c7a9626f24692b670828b0e39f9a3e53 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Lance Corporal Michael Nelson March 10, 2011 Carrboro, NC Julia Favorov: Okay. This is Julia Favorov interviewing Michael Nelson. It is March 10, 2011 , and this interview is taking place in the Carolina Cafe and Laundromat in Carrboro, North Carolina. This interview is for my American Military History class with Doctor Browning at Appalachian State University. Okay. So, Michael, what war and branch of the military were you in? Michael Nelson: I was in Operation Iraqi Freedom in the United States Marine Corps. Favorov: Okay. What was your rank? Nelson: Lance Corporal. Favorov: And where and when did you serve? Nelson: I served in the Al-Anbar province of Iraq, and it was in Ramadi Iraq. Ramadi was the name of the city. And I monitored a ECP, which is ... let me look up the acronym. I can't remember. It was, it was like an electronic collections point. And we monitored people going in and out of the city with about thirty Iraqi police. We monitored them searching the vehicles, searching the people and then we did that for the first month and then the next five months we did escorts, like escorting around high priority personnel like generals, admirals, Senator Obama, at the time. And we did that and for a good while. Escorting people, woman's rights rallies and such. And then the last month we monitored a gas station. Favorov: A gas station? Nelson: Yeah. It's the main gas station that all the truckers stop at to take gas to smaller gas stations around the country. Favorov: Alright. Interesting. What was your relations with the Iraqi citizens? 2 �Nelson: The Iraqi people were pretty.. they were pretty cool most of the time. Iraqi police and Iraqi army guys were awesome. And the civilians were alright, depending on where you were. When we were in Fallujah, we didn't get a lot of good feedback. Favorov: Yeah. Nelson: But that's understandable. Favorov: Yeah. But so you got to hang out with the Iraqi police people? Nelson: Yeah. That first month and last month we were, when we were on those specific stations, we'd hang out with the Iraqi police and the Iraqi army a lot, because they'd be living with us at the frrst post. So, basically we would be sleeping in the same house really with Iraqis. Favorov: Interesting. Okay, well, what made you join the military? And specifically the Marines? Nelson: When I was three years old, my dad took me to a ... it was like a military show at the RDU airport. It was with all of the troops getting back from the first Iraqi War. And we basically went up on this big concrete hill with the sun in the background and everything. It was gorgeous. And we walk on up an Apache, a huey, an Apache helicopter, a huey helicopter, and a couple of Humvees, and it was just really cool. I was like three years old and I'm walking up here with my dad and my brother and this dude just picks me up and says "You wanna see something cool?" Next thing I know I'm in the cock pit of an Apache attack helicopter. And I just thought that was the coolest thing ever. Favorov: Yeah. So, why did you pick the Marines? Nelson: The best of the best. Favorov: Well, what was boot camp like? I remember hearing some pretty funny stories from you and Tako about boot camp. 3 �Nelson: It was interesting. It was like being in jail. It was exactly like being in jail, except you get to hold and shoot weapons. [Laughter] Yeah, it... I don't know. It was wild. You meet a lot of interesting people. There were about ninety-two people in my platoon. Which is large for a platoon. Really large. And a lot of interesting people. Favorov: Yeah. How much of a shock was it to go from high school in Chapel Hill to boot camp? Where did you go? Nelson: I went to Parris Island, South Carolina. And it was intense. It was terrifying. It was absolutely terrifying. Probably the scariest experience of my life. Scarier than going to Iraq. Favorov: Really? Nelson: Yeah. We trained for a year before we went to Iraq. Favorov: I mean, was it fun in some ways? Nelson: It was fun in some ways. Favorov: And exciting? Nelson: We had a lot of hilarious moments. Yeah. It was fun. I mean, you're with your boys and everybody is just terrified as fuck. Just completely fucking terrified. Favorov: Yeah. Do you have any funny stories that you'd want to share? Nelson: When we went to the gas chamber to .. Favorov: Gas chamber... ? 4 �Nelson: Yeah. We'd have to don gas masks, go in there, and they would fill the entire place with CS gas, which is like tear gas. Favorov: Okay. Nelson: And what it is is these tiny crystals, like microscopic crystals that will get in the pores of your skin and it will explode. So it is like an extreme sun burn. Favorov: That sounds like fun. Nelson: Yeah. It was, it was pretty bad. I went through that like three, three to four times in the entire Marine Corps. But, we are at this gas chamber, and there are a couple people .. we have to take off our masks for ten seconds and then put it back on and clear the mask by blowing with your hand on a button and then you're good to go but it still burns like crazy. And we had a couple of guys flip out and one of them, B_ _~ flipped out to the point where he shat himself. Favorov: Oh my god. [Laughter] Nelson: So we're sitting out, after the gas chamber, all snot coming out of our noses and everything. And we're just like "What's that smell? B did you shit yourself?" And he's like "Uhh .. " He just looks even more terrified, I think he started crying. The drill instructor nabbed him up, took him back to the barracks and everything. And this a ... this is hilarious, we're going to the bathroom after the gas chamber and everything, just going in there to clean up. And we hear this recruit yell out, we're all called recruits, we hear this other recruit yell out, "Uh, sir, permission to speak to drill instructor Sergeant Hemingway, sir." And this is all screaming. "What the fuck you want?" And he says, "Uh, sir, there's a turd on the deck, sir." And you hear the drill instructor yell "B _ _ ! Come clean this shit up! " It was pretty hilarious. That's one of many. I can't think of all of them off the top of my head. I went through some pretty hard times too. Favorov: Yeah? 5 �Nelson: Just, we have this one thing, it's called the crucible. We're out for three or four days. And we only have three meals. And we've got to hike to certain areas carrying a hundred pounds of gear. And several miles we'd be doing all this for like twenty miles to and from everything. And I went during the winter, because I thought it would suck going to boot camp in the summer. But in the winter the cold is horrible. And it was raining for all three, I think like three of the four days or something, I can't remember. But it's just like the most.. it'll beat you up pretty bad. You're outside 24/7. Favorov: Yeah. Well, doing it in the winter doesn't really prepare you for Iraq. Nelson: No, no. But we had plenty of training from boot camp to the time we went to Iraq. In hotter climates. Favorov: Okay. Well. [loud sounds in the background] Nelson: Sorry about that, I don't know what that is. Want to pause it? Favorov: Yeah, maybe. Okay. How often did you see combat in Iraq? Nelson: Not very often. More stuff happened in Fallujah, outside of where we were. We went to Fallujah probably maybe four times while we were there, maybe five. And it was, I mean, they lost a lot of people in Fallujah. We lost two people in our battalion. While we had control of the AI Anbar province. And one night, the first week, we... I was on that ECP post and I was going to bed for the day, I had the night shift watching security cameras. And this ... I had just got into bed and the entire building just shook so I look outside and we see this huge plume of smoke coming out. And it was a thousand pounds of explosives that attacked one of our ECPs, one of our police stations on the other side of the city. And it killed, well, one guy from my company, he got blown up with a guy from the battalion that we were leaving, which was 28, and my battalion was 19. So, we lost two guys that day. 6 �Favorov: Did you know them? Nelson: I knew Harter, I'd seen him around, I didn't know him that well. I just... I went to SOl with him, the school of infantry, I went there with him. And I had just seen him around. But it was wild. Favorov: Yeah. Was it hard to deal with? Seeing that or having that happen? Nelson: A little, but not really. I mean, you just don't worry about it really. You just... If it's your time, it's your time. We had a bunch of people who got blown up but not killed. Favorov: Yeah. But, what did you tell yourself to calm yourself down when you're in a dangerous situation? Nelson: There's nothing you can do. Favorov: Yeah? Nelson: Yeah. That's just what I told myself. It's just like there's nothing I can do. If something happens or if we had to shoot back I'd do that, but I never really had to shoot back at anyone. You just tell yourself that there's nothing you can do, otherwise you're going to be antsy and nervous and you're going to get somebody killed. Favorov: Yeah, yeah. That's intense. Well, I mean, do you have any stories you want to share from being in Iraq? Like funny stories, or not funny stories. Nelson: I can't think of any real funny stories. We didn't really, we didn't do much. All we really did was just escort people, or we'd be out a lot of the time. Favorov: Was it boring a lot? Nelson: Yeah, it was boring all the time. Absolutely boring. Whenever we were on the base we'd be 7 �watching That 70's Show or Califomication or.. Favorov: I like that show. Nelson: Yeah. We'd just get any series. Like, all the Family Guys, we'd watch them, because they had this hagie store off base. We called it the hagie store. And it was just this little, kind of a, one store flea market that sold bootleg DVDs and Tiger energy drinks and Boom Boom energy drinks. These drinks had caffeine in them so they weren't legal in the states, but they were, oh god they were great. We'd survive off those things. And we'd just drink water everyday. Water, water, water, always drinking water. Favorov: Did you have any alcohol when you were there? Nelson: No. Favorov: Yeah, I bet they wouldn't want ... Nelson: It's a dry country. If we were in .. if we weren't in a dry country then we'd be fme. But it's a dry country so alcohol is illegal. We noticed a couple of the Iraqi police smoking marijuana or opium. They'd get bootleg liquor, they'd get whiskey and stuff like that. But nothing .. we didn't really do anything. Favorov: Besides watching TV shows, what else did you guys do for entertainment? Nelson: Download Nintendo 64 emulators and play them on our computers. Favorov: Okay. Was it you that was telling me something about when you were in boot camp people playing WoW? World of Warcraft. Nelson: Not in boot camp. 8 �Favorov: Okay, well, not in boot camp, but somewhere. Yeah, sorry, not in boot camp. Nelson: Yeah, yeah. That's right. Back in the states, my room mate played WoW 24/7. Actually, probably 21/7. He'd sleep for three hours and he'd get up and he'd play WoW again. Favorov: That's pretty funny. Nelson: He never left the room. He would order pizza and have it.. it'd just be delivered to the room and he'd just eat and sit there and do nothing while we'd be going out to the bars and everything. Every once in a while we'd be able to pry him away from his computer, but not much. I forgot to mention, in Iraq, a couple of the guys passed time .. played Dungeons and Dragons. Favorov: That's cool! Nelson: Yeah. Yeah, me and a couple of my buddies were making fun of them because they were playing Dungeons and Dragons, but they.. Favorov: No, Dungeons and Dragons is great! Nelson: But yeah, they were excited. They were like, "it's something to do!" Favorov: Did you ever do Dungeons and Dragons with them? Nelson: No. I'd go and I'd watch and I'd ask what all the characters were, but .. Favorov: You should have played. That game is fun. Role playing is fun. Nelson: [Laughter] Favorov: That's interesting. I never.. okay. So, then when you were in the United States and you're just waiting .. so you're just waiting to be sent somewhere from your station? 9 �Nelson: Pretty much. Favorov: Where .. what different places were you stationed in the United States? Nelson: I was only stationed in Camp Lejeune, but we'd go to training at forts all over the country. Army forts all over the country. Twentynine Palms in California. It's in the Mojave Desert. And we'd do a lot of desert training there. And that was pretty interesting. There's a lot of cool training there. We'd .. we had this one mission when we were in the Mojave Desert, where .. I was with the mortars. I was a mortar-man, when I wasn't in Iraq. So, we'd get this ... we'd get this cannon and basically drop this bomb down a cannon and it'd fly five thousand meters to destroy a target. And it had a forty meter kill radius. We'd be able to launch ... a good ten rounds within two minutes, and be able to destroy an entire area. Anyway, that's what I did. So, in California, we got ordered to go to the top of this mountain and we're going to be assaulting this city with tanks and artillery. So, artillery starts firing and smoke over this town made out of Conex boxes, you know, those boxes that are on oil tankers? And arti is smoking the hell out of this town, and we're on top of this mountain so we're just watching everything, just like "whoa, this is awesome! " And we've got these three tanks, like picture you're on top of this mountain and you've got three tanks coming down here, and arti is blasting this place with smoke, so smoke is just covering this entire little town and the tanks fire and it looks like lasers just destroying everything. And we would drop AG rounds, which are high explosives, and that was our forty meter kill radius weapon. And we just obliterated this town with mortars and everything. Favorov: Okay. Well, was it.. did you get to experience all these different cities all over the United States? Awesome United States traveling? Nelson: Not really outside of military bases. No. We'd go there on the weekends. We'd go to Florida. We went to Daytona. We'd go everywhere. I went to Atlanta, Charlotte, Wilmington all the time, because it is forty five minutes from Camp Lejeune. Just go to Wilmington a lot. Basically just binge drink. Favorov: Hah. Okay. Well ... 10 �Nelson: Some training scenarios, we'd have Iraqi people who were role players. And they'd come out there, and they'd have to speak all Arabic, they wouldn't be able to speak English. They wouldn't be allowed. And they'd have AK-47 assault rifles with blanks and we'd have blanks as well and we'd be role playing basically. One time, we patrolled, foot patrolled, with a MlAl Abrams and we'd just walk beside it and they had this whole scenario set up. So, we turned a comer in this town and I've got the tank right next to me and I've got an M4 and my squad leader is in front of me, and this little rocket attached to a string just flies down and explodes. And this sniper guy just starts firing at us, and we've got to fire back with all of our blanks. It's pretty intense. And the tanks fire with a 50 caliber machine gun, just like .. intense. It's wild. It'll shake your whole chest. Favorov: Yes. Well, so what were .. what was your favorite time serving in the military? Where .. yeah, what was your favorite .. when you were where was your favorite time? Like, in Iraq? Nelson: In Iraq, probably. Favorov: Yeah? Nelson: Yeah. You're just out with your boys and you're making mad money. Lots of money, because we get combat pay, hazard pay, and no taxes. And it was great. Favorov: Okay. So, after your service ended how has it been getting back to civilian life? Nelson: It's been pretty difficult. Favorov: Yeah? Nelson: Yeah. When we got back from Iraq, apparently on the drive from where we got back to to the beach house that my parents rented the traffic wasn't easy to cope with, because in Iraq everyone gets out of your way and back here you're driving right next to people. So, apparently I was like doing this, reaching for my shoulder all time. I was reaching for my gun. I don't remember doing that. My parents 11 �told me about it. And that was after the fact. But getting back to civilian life just from being in the Marine Corps, the profanity is probably the hardest. Cause I'd just be like, "Fucking, with this fucking thing in the fucking .. " And that's seriously how we talked. Like, "fucking, fuck, fuck, fuck." Like it just never stopped. Shit, damn, hell, all of that. Favorov: And do your parents not appreciate that language? Nelson: Not really, no. Well, I mean, saying it around other people isn't easy, either. Cause I got a security job when I first got back, and like security we're supposed to help people get to where ever they need to go if they can't find a place. So, it's really hard not to use profanity when you're saying, "Yeah, go to the fucking end of the corridor there, and just fucking hang a right, and take another fucking right and you'll be good to go. Just keep walking straight and it'll be right in front of you." It's the worst. The worst. Favorov: That's interesting. I guess that makes sense that that habit would get picked up in the Marines. Nelson: Yeah. Saying like, calling people yoohoos. "Hey yoohoo! " Favorov: Yoohoo? Nelson: Or like trying to stop from telling people to pick things up if they throw a piece of trash on the ground. Because I've yelled at people for throwing a cigarette butt down. Favorov: Well, so what have you been doing since you got out ofthe military? Nelson: Not really much of anything. Just trying to pay back bills. And I was staying with my parents for a good while, and I just moved into this little apartment with my girlfriend in December. And that's been interesting. But not really much of anything. Just paying back bills and thinking about going to college. Using the GI bill. 12 �told me about it. And that was after the fact. But getting back to civilian life just from being in the Marine Corps, the profanity is probably the hardest. Cause I'd just be like, "Fucking, with this fucking thing in the fucking .. " And that's seriously how we talked. Like, "fucking, fuck, fuck, fuck." Like it just never stopped. Shit, damn, hell, all of that. Favorov: And do your parents not appreciate that language? Nelson: Not really, no. Well, I mean, saying it around other people isn't easy, either. Cause I got a security job when I first got back, and like security we're supposed to help people get to where ever they need to go if they can't find a place. So, it's really hard not to use profanity when you're saying, "Yeah, go to the fucking end of the corridor there, and just fucking hang a right, and take another fucking right and you'll be good to go. Just keep walking straight and it'll be right in front of you." It's the worst. The worst. Favorov: That's interesting. I guess that makes sense that that habit would get picked up in the Marines. Nelson: Yeah. Saying like, calling people yoohoos. "Hey yoohoo! " Favorov: Yoohoo? Nelson: Or like trying to stop from telling people to pick things up if they throw a piece of trash on the ground. Because I've yelled at people for throwing a cigarette butt down. Favorov: Well, so what have you been doing since you got out of the military? Nelson: Not really much of anything. Just trying to pay back bills. And I was staying with my parents for a good while, and I just moved into this little apartment with my girlfriend in December. And that's been interesting. But not really much of anything. Just paying back bills and thinking about going to college. Using the GI bill. 12 �Favorov: What would you go to college for? What were you thinking about? Nelson: For a while I was looking at being a cop, but then I don't want to keep doing what I have been doing. And then, I'm looking at logistics or anything. I don't really know what I want to do. Like data management or logistics or something with like an associates degree or something along those lines. Favorov: Okay. Well, do you have anything else that you want to share about the whole experience? Nelson: It was a lot of fun. It was like ..being in the military is like fifty percent "Fuck I hate my life," and the other fifty percent is like "Oh, that's cool, I get to do that." Or "Yay, I get to hang out with my buddies." Or stuff like that. The best part about the Marine Corps was probably the weekends. Just going to random bars, getting in bar fights. Wild, wild weekends. It's like being a rock star. But with not a lot of money. So you go to crappy bars. Yeah. Favorov: Okay. Well, I don't think you said it before. What were the .. when did you .. when did your service start and end. What were the dates? Nelson: I went into the Marine Corps on September 11 , 2006. That was the day I arrived at Parris Island. And I got out... they had a ninety day early program, because the Marine Corps was overflowing when I was getting out. So, I got out ninety days early. You had to apply for it and everything. And it was ... June 4, 2010 is when I got out. And I've been utilizing the VA benefits. I get free health coverage, because I have 10% disability for having tinnitus. Because dropping bombs down a cannon, and your head is right next to the cannon ..! can't really.. this ear is kind of messed up. And, yeah. That's pretty much it. I just got an evaluation for PTSD last week. I'll see how that turns out. Hopefully... I don't know. Favorov: Do you feel like you have the symptoms for it? Nelson: I don't know. I got nightmares for a while. Like a year after Iraq. Drinking usually made them go away. Now I don't really get many nightmares, and I don't drink anymore ... as much. I probably have like a drink every... a couple drinks every week. Rather than drinking like a case of beer a night, 13 �• which is what it was. Favorov: Okay. Well, good luck with all that. Nelson: Yeah. Favorov: Okay. Well. I guess ... this interview is over. Unless there is anything else you want to say. Nelson: I can't think of any. Favorov: Well, thank you. Nelson: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Favorov: Yes. 14 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0a17d69d1d348f55a141f5dc22f53fec.mp3 b33464ee6a562f167d72ddd195d7538b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Nelson, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Favorov, Julia Interview Date 3/10/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:27:35 File name 2013_063_Nelson_Michael_interview 2013_063_Nelson_Michael_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Nelson, 10 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Favorov, Julia Nelson, Michael Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 14 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Veterans Nelson, Michael Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Michael Nelson served in the Marine Corps as a part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He describes his experience in Iraq as quite boring, and his basic training as much more lively. His greatest challenges have been adjusting back to civilian life. Al-Anbar Camp Lejeune gas station GI Bill hagie store Lance Corporal Marine Corps Michael Nelson Operation Iraqi Freedom Parris Island https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/80a567b50a51ed95806e7d6193774e48.pdf 60894303b13ad617ee39c00d7bc7d102 PDF Text Text Oral History Project Interview Conducted By: Bradley McMahan Interviewee: Michael McMahan-US Navy Veteran March 11, 2011 Interview Transcript Bradley- Ok Uncle Michael so this is an interview for Dr. Judkin Browning's American Military History class and it's being taken place in Black Mountain, NC and I'm Bradley McMahan and his is my uncle Michael McMahan and Uncle Michael when and where were you born? Michael-! was born in 1951 in Asheville, NC Bradley- What branch of the service were you in? Michael- I was in the Navy Bradley- What was your rank while in the Navy? Michael-My fmal rank was aviation ordinance, third class. Bradley- Where all did you go on duty? Michael- I went into boot camp in Orlando, FL , from there I went to ordinance school in Jacksonville, FL, from the there, I went to Alameda, CA, which was my home port during my first cruise I went from Alameda to Hawaii to the Philippines to Hong Kong to Japan and then back to CA, back to Alameda. Then on my second cruise I went to San Diego and to San Diego to further train and I went to again Hawaii, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Singapore and then finally Bremerton, WA. Bradley- And what was your specific duty usually while on your cruises? Michael- During my first cruise I built bombs from 250 pounds up to 2000 bombs to load on the planes Bradley-Ok and are you considered by the Veterans Administration a Vietnam Veteran or just ... Michael- A Vietnam Veteran yes Bradley- And did you join the Navy because it was your choice or were you drafted? Michael- It was my choice �Bradley- And where were you living at the time you enlisted? Michael- In Black Mountain Bradley- What was your driving factor behind it? Michael- During that time I was ... restless, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I was attending Asheville Buncombe Tech College. During that time I was going ok where is my life going. I grew up listening to the stories of my uncles, my father's about all the great places they had seen in the military and that really appealed to me. Bradley- And what made you choose the Navy? Michael- You get to see the world. And fortunately I didn't realize the world was 75% water at that time. Bradley- What was it like when you first joined, coming from such a small town in Black Mountain, you really were on the whole other side of the world? Michael- Your first experience is always boot camp which is ... quite a bit different from waking up to your mother asking you to get up nicely ... ! saw a lot of things I never thought I would see. I was excited. Jacksonville, FL, I had only seen the ocean a couple of times before that and California I had only seen it in the movies. So it was a great time, it was very exciting. Bradley- Did you enjoy boot camp or is it ... Michael-No way Bradley-Or is it pretty terrible? Michael- Well you adapt Bradley- Did you ever regret your decision while in boot camp? Michael- Oh several times ... several times Bradley- What do you remember about specifically about boot camp? Michael- Uh the rigid structure, the numbness of time going by so slowly, of having to pause for toothpaste, for a tooth brush, I uh sometimes it was the brutality of people getting slapped in the heads with clipboards and different things, so yes it was not like around where I grew up. Bradley-What made you finally pull through it? Michael- Pull through it. .. time ... and that... Bradley-You just get used to it after a while? Michael- You get used to it. Bradley- I've heard you say before you'd watched a lot of John Wayne movies and wanted to go to Vietnam. Did they talk about Vietnam much in boot camp or was it just. .. �Michael-No, no they did not talk a lot about Vietnam ... in boot camp a lot of that is just getting your mind right. Bradley- So after you went to boot camp, your first assignment was where? Michael- I went to Jacksonville, FL for aviation ordinance school, that's where I learned how to build bombs and missiles ... and how to work both and how to do trouble shooting on weapons systems. Bradley- And then from there it was off to the west coast? Michael- From there I was transferred to the USS Ranger ... which was an aircraft carrier, which had more people on the ship when it was fully loaded than my hometown. Bradley- So after you went to the USS Ranger, did you enjoy your ... bomb making or.. ? Michael- Well my first duty on the Ranger was mess cooking which in the Navy unless you're ranked is what you do. That's where you cooked. I told you the story of meeting your Aunt Janelle. When I met her at night my job was cracking 1200 eggs ... scramble eggs. Uh ... the bomb we when out to sea .. .it was bomb making was assembly process it was just like working a assembly line, screwing things together. And was it enjoyable? No it was work. You worked twelve, thirteen, fourteen hours and then you would probably stand four hours other duties. Bradley- When you go on leave, did you ever get a chance to come back to Black Mountain much, or were you solely on the West Coast? Michael- I got to come home uh ... twice ... twice ... maybe three times. In the military you get 30 days leave ... so I got to come home before I went to California and then I got to come home before I was going to head to Vietnam the second time Bradley- Did you ever get home sick at all on the west coast? Michael- Uh ... yes ... yes ..l met your Aunt Janelle. You miss family. You know uh people grow up while you're gone. Bradley- Once you ... got out to sea did you find pretty monotonous out on the sea. Did you ever get really bored out there? Michael- You got uh ... again on my first I was down below decks, I might not see .. .l was working days down below, I wouldn't see sunlight twenty days, twenty five days. So I stayed pretty busy when you got time all you want to do is eat and sleep. Umm but uh in down time, you got bored. It's not today ... you've got all the video games, you got all those things, there isn't all that type of entertainment. You read a ton of books. You'd stand in lines in read books. You'd stand in line to eat. You stood in line to do everything. Bradley- So after you got back off your first cruise, you were wanting to get a Vietnam assignment? �Michael - I had been, ever since I had gone on the Ranger, about every couple of months, I would put in for Vietnam land duty or be stationed. I primarily wanted to be a door gunner on a helicopter. Bradley- What was the major changing force and did that happen or. .. ? Michael- Well, I got my orders, I was put to Cameron Bay, Vietnam ... transferred off the Ranger, went port for survival school at North Island and San Diego, CA for survival school. At that time Nixon started pulling troops out of Vietnam and my orders got cancelled, so I stayed in San Diego for about a month and then I got orders to report aboard the USS Enterprise, which is a nuclear carrier. Bradley- Now were you disappointed that you didn't get your Vietnam assignment? Michael - Absolutely Bradley- And what appealed to you so much about Vietnam? Michael- To me, John Wayne movies Bradley- So none of the bad news reports and anything that ever came back didn't scare you at all or phase you? Michael- They actually enticed me. Bradley- So once you got on the Enterprise, did you find that more enjoyable than the Ranger? Michael - Uh my duties changed . . .! stayed in the bomb division I worked in the missile division .. . ! worked on the flight deck. So I did get fresh air .. . sunshine. That was more enjoyable, yes. Bradley- Did everybody still talk about Vietnam much while you were on the Enterprise and if maybe you guys would eventually get to go, or did you pretty much accept that your orders had changed? Michael - I pretty much accepted that. Bradley- You said when the Enterprise sailed out you went through the pickets, what was that like? Did you feel anything? Were you angry at the people that were trying to do it or ... ? Michael - It was odd feeling because a lot of them were my age. At the time you were in San Francisco, Almeda was right off San Francisco and you would go down town and you would wear your uniform and people would take and there would be protests ... and you were like ok I'm going overseas and there' s a missing piece. At that time it was angry and were pulling out, just watching people, the helicopters would hover over the protests little boats and flood them so they couldn't stop us from leaving. Now I look back at it and I have mixed emotions. They were right about a lot of things, the protesters were. A lot of boys died needlessly there. Bradley- Did you know anybody personally that had gone to Vietnam and gotten killed from Black Mountain, or that you had met, or Naval buddies? �Michael - Let's see did I know anybody ... personally that went to Vietnam. Yes I knew some people that went to Vietnam and you know that came back and talked about the good stuff and then they had uniforms, they looked sharp, all this type of thing, they talked about all their adventures . .. but there were several from Black Mountain killed. Bradley- So when you were on the Enterprise, what was the most eye opening experience you had? Michael- .. .1 was on the flight deck, there was a F-4 coming in with damage and it got about two hundred yards from the ship and exploded ... another two hundred yards and it had landed on the ship, I would have been toast. Bradley- Was that the first casualty on your boat or had you seen them hit the water before that? Michael - I had seen right when I went on my first cruise, I saw an airplane, he came in, the tail hook broke, plane went in the water, it rolled, the pilots ejected and broke their necks .. .I also saw I guess on the Enterprise, on the flight deck, there was a prop plane that transported mail and parts and that type of thing, I had thirteen people aboard, it took ... machinery broke it was carrying the back, it dropped in the sea killing thirteen people ... and that was just part of life. Bradley- Did it freak you out at fust? I don' t know if it was the fust death you had really seen but. .. Michaei-...Did it freak me out? That's a good question . ...there' s a curiosity about it ... you know at that age you don' t ... you don' t think it's going to happen with you. If it does you' ll go out in all the glory you know. Go in the retirement home. Bradley- ... What was your favorite port you went in to? Michael - ... uh they were all unique. They were all unique and unless you visited them, they were exotic, they were nothing like you would ever see in Black Mountain, beautiful scenery, interesting people ... growing up in Black Mountain, working at the service station , you always had interesting people, so I was always fascinated with interesting people and their cultures ... so there was not one particular, I would say was the one. Bradley- Did you enjoy all the time you spent on leave and stuff and in ports? Was it almost to foreign to enjoy at some points? Michael- No ... it was never too foreign. I mean you only go around once, so you try and see it all. You know when a kid from Black Mountain gets to see all this exotic stuff.. . you know the capitols of the world. You grow up in school and read about them and how exotic they are and all that, then you find out most of them are just people. Bradley- Did you ever ... at what point did you realize that you weren' t going to .. . did you decide whether you would make a career out of it, or what point did you say this is fun now but am I going to keep doing this after this? Michael - Well I got married while in the military .. .very high rate of divorce, especially with Navy at that time because a cruise lasted about nine months ... and then when you were home you would have sea trials so you weren't home that much so marriage became a real problem and �also there was sometimes the boredom factor, there's a lot of that, when you're not, when you're not making missiles or bombs or whatever, it can get boring like anything else. Bradley- So when you came back in off that last cruise and you had seen the world and everything were you excited about being done, or did you feel like you were leaving a little bit of you behind on those ships? Michael - ... I was very excited to get out. I was coming home. At that point we working in the Enterprise had gone into dry dock in Bremerton, so all we were doing was chipping paint. I was very excited. I had a brother that I wanted to see grow up. Best part, big part in the hand. It was a lot of those types of things that you miss and when you get back home on the flip side ... you come home and people hadn't been through those experiences, you're different. When you talk to military people that have seen the world, they have a different view than someone that's say .. .local. When you join the military, you do whatever see as much of the world you can. Bradley- So did you do .. .it was four years? Michael - Four years, yes. Bradley- And after your four years did you look back and say that that it was well worth it or did you think you could have maybe been happy without it? Michael- That's a very loaded question ... first of all it changed my life forever, I met my wife, set a lot of things into motion ... so that's good. The flip side ... set a lot of things in motion ... a lot of things change you can't say what I'd have done ifl stayed in school, got my head on straight and become the attorney I thought I might be one of these days ... but you can't look at it that way. You really can't. Bradley- So I'm guessing that you definitely came out with honorable discharge? Michael - Yes Bradley- You're ready to move on with the rest of your life and once you got back in Black Mountain, did you think that, that restlessness had kind of been cured, that you had seen what you wanted to see, or did it almost just make it harder to be back in a little town now that you had been to had been to Hong Kong and the Philippines .. now your back to two stop lights. Michael- .. .I had a job one time, I was a cop here ... to turn off the stop lights(laughter) ... no I enjoyed being here but I always missed the excitement of seeing the world ... and today I still want to see the world. Bradley- And .... once you got out did you think that the Navy made a you more driven with the structure it had given you ... you said you were kind of restless when you went...just a teenage kid that didn't really know what he wanted to do ... do you think it really focused you in for the rest of your life. Some military people say it changed them for the better and some say it changed them for the worse ... Michael - It focused me, I grew up in there, accepting more responsibility that was a real positive .. .I think it was all in all a positive. It turned out to be a positive experience. There were people I know that went in there and it didn't turn out to be a positive experience for them. �Bradley- Did you keep in touch with any of the people you were in the service with or when you got on the plane back, you were on the plane back? Michael - I was on the plane back. Bradley- What did you decide to do career wise after you left the military and made that decision? Michael- When I come back l. ...this was during a recession in 1974 .. .1 was fortunate enough to get a job as a policeman. I had a wife to support and jobs were ... not that many of them ... plus I got to drive a car fast ... so as policeman I knew I needed education so I went back to AB Tech to finish that and then ... my son was born and then two and a half years late, we moved back to Oregon .. :out to Oregon, not back. Bradley- Do you think any of your Navy experience on the west coast, made you want to go back to the west coast or was that more of a total non military related decision? Or do you think had you been in Black Mountain, the west coast would have just been another place? Michael - I think ... if it hadn't been for the military I wouldn't have been exposed to the west coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity ... ifmost people go to the west coast, they're there for a week. The Navy gave me a home there ... where you blend in with the local, you know where to go to have fun, you know those types of things. There's beautiful places all over the country, drove across country and all that, there's some very fascinating places, I love the west coast, I love the east coast, but Black Mountain's home. Bradley- And once you were on the west coast, you got into the banking industry. Do you think anything you did in the Navy helped you with the banking? Michael - Uh ... no actually it put me behind. The reason I say that is at my age people in banking already had their four year degree, so I was competing against people with a degree. Uh .. .I was fortunate enough to get a job and work my way up through the company. Bradley- Do you think .... you went on to be pretty successful in the banking ... do you think once you got past the four year degree set back and the age difference with some of the people, that the structure you gained from the Navy helped your drive at all to get to the top of the corporate ladder or was that just who you were? Michael- That's just natural ... get it from parents ... my father ... my brother is successful I was successful .. .ifi had the drive in the Navy, for the example to work on the flight deck, you had to have drive. It was an automatic given that you had to prove yourself to move up to that level. Bradley-... Since you've gotten older and experienced some of the benefits of the VA hospitals and stuff, do you think that that is a very good prospect. ... or selling point I should say of joining the military for people that don't have a lot of money potentially or to have access to that for the rest of their lives. Did you take advantage of the GI Bill went you went back to AB Tech? Michael - What I found looking back and even back then the military and I talked to you about this one time the military is a way people see of getting their education paid for. The GI Bill was the most equalizer when it come out of anything happening after WWll all of a sudden it wasn't �just the rich kids that could go to college, it was the blue collar workers son or the blue collar worker. That' s the most equalizer; everyone looked at it that way. Unfortunately there' s also a price to be paid for that. Not everybody comes back from war with all their limbs or the same mental as when they went in. You can go into the VA hospital and you can see men that have seen things that no one should have to see. If you go to the VA hospital and look around, most are trained killers ... at one point in their life, they were trained killers and now a lot them its impacting them. Bradley- So when you see these recruiters and the posters that you get your college paid for, your medical bills for life, you know prescriptions are cheaper ... free .. .they make you feel like essentially you' re going to live a very covered life for the rest of your life. Do you just kind of look it and laugh, like it' s kind of a croc? Michael- It' s first of all when you come, unless you retire you're not under the medical plan. And there' s some provisions, for example now if you get out ofthe service and you' ve had combat duty, then you get two years insurance coverage down at the VA, you don' t get three years, you get two. Unless you get injured, then It's a whole different story. So .. .it' s not quite a croc but . .. . Bradley- There ' s a lot of :fine print. .. Michael- A lot of :fine print, remember they' re there to do a job, they're there to get you in. For a lot of people it' s the right decision and for a lot ofpeople .... no, it's generally if you look at the mixture you can go over to the VA now, most are high school graduates or less, most of them there weren't in the best jobs in the world, you know they worked in the mills, blue collar when they come out, they had done all the right things, but never made a whole lot of money just working in the mill. Bradley- So I guess the tell all question for the whole thing, is looking back now is do you think that you joining the Navy was a good decision or do you ... if you would have not done do you think you would be the same person you are now and everything would still be ok? Michael - I have to answer that in two ways. First of all you don't know what'll happen if you hadn' t joined. If you change one thing in your life, you change everything. I'm sitting here today with family, everything is good ... There' s people down at the cemetery that never made it past my age on account of Vietnam or another war. There' s .. .we have an uncle that fought in WWII, he came back physically alright but he was never mentally right, he lived that war the rest of his life, he lived into his late 70' s, early 80' s. So that's the first part of my answer. I can' t change anything because I'm here so I can't judge. The second side, would I advise someone going in? First of all it would depend on what their goals were and all that. My answer would be no. If it's there just to get an education, there' s other ways to get an education. It' s to unequal between the poor boys, the blue collar boys, the minorities going in, just trying to make it up the ladder. While you have the other group who because it is an all volunteer, they don' t have to go in because they have the money to stay out. So in four years, they have their degree, the other kid comes back out of Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan or the next thing, and they' ll be alright or maybe not. So why take that risk? �Bradley- Well I think we've covered about everything and thank you for everything and that concludes this interview on March 11 , 2011 in Black Mountain, NC between Bradley McMahan and Michael McMahan, for Dr. Judkin Browning' s American Military History class at Appalachian State University. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e6bae362c605e1ed0a03f0611c0f1888.mp3 80a0280bfaf7d5aa6d62de1cce8c33bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. McMahan, Michael Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. McMahan, Bradley Interview Date 3/11/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:31:27 File name 2013_063_McMahan_Mike_interview 2013_063_McMahan_Michael_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael McMahan, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McMahan, Bradley McMahan, Michael Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 9 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans McMahan, Michael Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Michael McMahan is interviewed about his service in the US Navy aboard the USS Ranger. He spent the majority of his time as a mess cook at the bottom of a ship, and was never stationed in Vietnam. aviation ordinance Black Mountain Cameron Bay cruise Enterprise GI Bill Michael McMahan US Navy USS Ranger Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/24d38c7b1e10456a379ea3aa307bdf5a.pdf 177f31b324b879decce9cd2a0b7243eb PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Tommy McCalvin. Feb. 19,2011 Kernersville, North Carolina Nick Waldrop: Interviewer Nick Waldrop interviewing Tommy McCalvin on February 19, 2011 at Tommy's home in Kernersville, North Carolina. Can you tell me when and where you were born? Tommy McCalvin: Port Saint Joe, Florida. June 18, 1966 Waldrop: And ... what branch of the military did you join? McCalvin : US Navy Waldrop: When did you join the navy? McCalvin: June 22, 1988 Waldrop: Alright, why did you join? McCalvin: The town I lived in was just a small town, just wanted to get out of town and see the world. Waldrop: So how old were you when you joined? McCalvin: Twenty Two Waldrop: Twenty Two. Did you initially plan to join the navy or did you want to serve in another branch? McCalvin: US Air Force is what I originally started trying to go into but they kept making me take the ASVAB test, which is the armed services vocational aptitude battery test or something. It's what everybody has to take to get into the military. So I took it four times within two months and ... they kept saying that the ... some scores, I mean I passed with flying colors but the scores were not jiving for some reason and they never really did explain that. So I walked out of the ... after the fourth time of taking the test at the air force I walked straight outta there and walked into the navy recruiting and a month later I was in San Diego, California. Waldrop: Alright, so how long did you serve in the navy for? McCalvin: Four years Waldrop: Four years. Alright, so you ... chose to go with the navy, went to San Diego ... that's where you did basic training? 1 �McCalvin : Yes Waldrop: So what was basic training like? McCalvin: It was eight weeks of... intense torture [chuckles], no they put you through things that, you know, they wanted to test your mental stability. You know see if you could take the rigorous life of the navy, so they put you through everything to see if they could ... break you for lack of a better word. I mean ... because being in the military is a stressful thing sometimes so they wanted to make sure you weren't gonna get in there and freak out. It was learning to, you know, use a rifle and a pistol and it was ... kind of ... basically showing you what life was gonna be like in the military and .. .it was a lot of exercise. A lot of running, a lot of pushups, a lot of extra work and it was hot. It was June in San Diego, California and it was hot. [chuckles] Waldrop: You said they tried to break you, did you ever witness anybody being ... broken? McCalvin: Oh yea. People left all the time. Waldrop: How do you ... how do they just leave basic training? McCalvin: Well .. .it's a little known fact but when you actually join the military you actually have six months ... 180 days to actually ... decide whether you're gonna leave or not. You know, they don't tell everybody that but if you decide in that first six months that the military is just not for you then you can opt out and ... get out of the military and just sign ... there's a little more to it than that. You can't just say I'm done, they try to get you to stay and they do other things but for the most part if they are set on leaving they let them leave. You know, because they don't want anybody in there that doesn't want to be in there. Especially in the first six months. Waldrop: Did you ever ... think about leaving? I mean was basic training that bad for you that you were just like I can't handle this. McCalvin: Oh, there was times when ... when I was thinking ... man four years of this but then I got to talking to my company commander and he said listen ... lt's not gonna be like this for four years or however long you stay in the navy. And he said trust me, I've been in for twelve, fourteen years. He said it's not like this. I said ok, so ... he talked me out of it. Waldrop: So when you were in basic training did you ... were you confined to the base for the entire eight weeks. McCalvin: Yes Waldrop : So you didn't get to ... explore San Diego, or ... 2 �McCalvin: No, I actually did my ... after I graduated from boot camp I actually did my ... extra training to be a engineman ... diesel mechanic in San Diego. So, I mean, that's when I got to explore the San Diego night life. Waldrop: So while you were in basic training ... were you able to talk with your family or your parents or anything like that? McCalvin: Letters but not talk. Just write letters. Waldrop : So you got out of basic training, when was that? McCalvin: ... end of August, first of September. Waldrop: 1988? McCalvin: Uh huh, Yes Waldrop: So you got out of basic training and then you said you went to train to be an engineman? McCalvin: Yes Waldrop: What was that like? McCalvin : It was like being in college really, I mean you were in ... you had class work that you did and then you ... after a certain amount of time. It was a twenty-six week course, no, I take that back. Thirteen week course and so the first couple weeks you were doing mainly class work and then after that you did class work in the morning and then you went out and actually turned a wrench and started working on equipment. It was ... it was kind of interesting. Waldrop: So you say it was kind of like college ...did you still have to live on base or did you ... McCalvin: I could've lived wherever I wanted but yea I lived on base. Waldrop: So did you still have duties to perform on base while you were ... McCalvin: Yes Waldrop : ... taking your classes. McCalvin: We had ... we had to stand guard duty .. .for a twenty four hour period. I mean not twenty four hours at a time but we were confined to the base for twenty four hours. You had your normal workday from seven to four and then if you were on duty you had to stay and 3 �stand guard duty during certain times. So you did that every six days ... it was like every six days you couldn't leave the base. Kind of like a fireman. [Chuckles] Waldrop: So did you get, while you were in class, did you get weekends off ...or was it like you went everyday to class? McCalvin: Well no you went...yea you got weekends off, you went Monday through Friday and then if you weren't on duty Saturday and Sunday, then you had Saturday and Sunday off. Waldrop: Ok. Alright, so after basic training was done where did you go? What did you do? McCalvin: Well after I got through with my schooling in San Diego I went to the USS New Jersey, which is a battleship, and reported for duty on the battleship and started doing my daily job ... being an engineman. Waldrop : So how long did you serve on the New Jersey? McCalvin: Eighteen months. Waldrop: Eighteen Months. So what was your responsibilities while you were on the New Jersey? McCalvin: We made sure that the generators, we had two diesel generators that would ... if the ship went...lost power, we could start the generators up and run the ship ... through the generators. So that was part of my job making sure that the generators were kept and maintained and ready to be used. And then we also took the oil pressure sensors on the bearings on the shaft, for the ship and took care of the low pressure and high pressure air systems and the bilge pumps. Basically took care of the drinking water, the air conditioners, just everything that had to do with the engineer part we were part of taking care of it. Waldrop: So ... so while you were on the New Jersey ... did you guys sail around or were you patrolling the coast of the United States? McCalvin: We went out for short training periods, like maybe thirteen or fourteen days. Then we deployed to overseas and went to Pusan, Korea and different places like that. We went out for a six month cruise. So we were out from our home port for six months and then we visited different cities of the world and different countries. Waldrop: So what...l guess do you know why you were going out? What was the mission I guess .. .for going? McCalvin: Just...just to let our presence to be known. We went out with a battle group where there was like ... one battleship ... two aircraft carriers ... three or four cruisers and different ships which kind of went as a group and we went to different places just to let the world know that 4 �we were there. Just kind of ...like customer relations. Let them know that we were there and we weren't there to start any trouble but we were there if the trouble started. Waldrop: Ok. So you served for eighteen months on the New Jersey. What did you do after serving on the New Jersey? McCalvin: I went to ... the David H. Hill, which is a cruiser, and was there for six months and then went to the USS New Jersey for two years .... just about ... close to two years and then they 1 decommissioned the USS New Jersey on March 31 of 1992 ... and we went overseas and we were actually in the Gulf War, the first Gulf War. Waldrop: On the New Jersey? McCalvin: No, on the Missouri. Waldrop : So you went to the David H. Hill and then the Missouri? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop: Ok. So ... what's a cruiser? McCalvin : It has like smaller ...it has like guided missiles and it has five inch guns. It's just a smaller ship than the battleships and other ships. The battleship had fifteen-hundred people on it and the cruiser had about six-hundred. Waldrop: And then ... was your job pretty much the same on the David H. Hill? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop : And what about on the USS Missouri? McCalvin: Same. Waldrop: Same job. So ... you said the Missouri was a... carrier? McCalvin: No, a battleship. Waldrop: It was a battleship. So you said you were in the Gulf War while you were serving on the Missouri? McCalvin: Yes. 1 Here Tommy is referring to the USS Missouri. After serving on the David H. Hill he went to serve on the USS Missouri and served on it until the ship was decommissioned on March 31, 1992. 5 �Waldrop: Were you guys here when the Gulf War broke out or were you overseas at the time? McCalvin: We were ... we were here originally and then, but we were ... before the actual war broke out we were actually leaving to go overseas but then we got rerouted to serve in the Persian Gulf. Waldrop: Did you have any idea about the situation that was developing? Was there any kind of talk like, oh there might be a war or something? McCalvin : Not before I joined the navy but yea ...six, eight months before the actual war broke out we knew that tensions were getting tough over there and that Saddam Hussein was a maniac and he was gonna probably, eventually need to be taken out and unfortunately we didn't finish the job so that's why we're there now. Waldrop : So ... did you think that the Missouri was going to be called up to actually fight in the war or ... McCalvin : We pretty much figured we were because usually in every battle group there's a battleship, maybe even two battleships, and like I said two or three aircraft carriers and numerous other ships so we pretty much knew, maybe not that we were gonna be in the Persian Gulf but we knew we were gonna be somewhere ... defending our troops. Waldrop: So ... when you guys went to the Persian Gulf, did your job stay the same or did you have additional combat duties you had to perform? McCalvin : I was in charge of the small boat units and I had to go out with the explosive ordinance teams to, like if a mine was found in the Persian Gulf, I rode on the small boat units in order to make sure that the boat was still running and if it broke down be able to fix it, and they went out and blew up mines so I rode with them. That was part of my job. Any time we did anything that involved the small boats I was part of it. Whether we were refueling or whether we were refueling helicopters or going out and blowing up mines I was in charge of that, so I had to go. So it might be two o'clock in the morning or it could be noon, whenever they had to go I had to go with them. Waldrop : What was it like having to go out and blow up land mines? I mean was it scary? McCalvin: Well it wasn't landmines, it was ... Waldrop : Sorry, sea mines. McCalvin: Yea, we had ... there were certain things that you always knew that .... the responsibility that ...if the mine wasn't stable, doing the wrong thing could end up blowing you and other people up. I remember one time they slapped the C4 on it and we rode off fifty, sixty yards and 6 �then hit the button and it didn't blow up. So the captain said give it thirty seconds and then go back and check on it and I'm like just drop me off here I'll just dog paddle until y'all get back. When you hit the C4, when you hit the button to blow the C4 up and it don't blow up then something's wrong. Luckily it blew up within fifteen seconds and we didn't have to go back and check on it. Waldrop: So was that ... while you were doing that was there ever any times where you were kind of under enemy fire or anything like that? Or was it pretty much night time missions or something like that? McCalvin: No, we were out day and night. We never actually got fired on while we were blowing mines and everything but we actually got a missile shot at us. We were all sitting there doing our jobs and next thing you know they come over the intercom and they're like brace for shock missile inbound on the starboard side, which is the right side of the ship, and we're sitting there and at that point I really realized ... ! mean I realized that we were in a war when we were blowing up mines but when we actually had a missile shot at us I kind of realized that hey we're in a war and I looked at my buddy and said "hey, you know we're in a war right now right?" And he was like, "yea," he says, "it's actually coming more clearer every day." Then the missile went over us and then it turned around and come back and they said missile inbound port side ... and actually a British ship blew up the ... because we have what they call a CWIS, which is Close Interval Weapon System, it looks like R2D2, it's got like a Gatling gun that shoots 3000 rounds per minute and it blows up planes and missiles and stuff like that. Well it was a glitch in the system and it kind of like shut down and so were kind of like sitting ducks, and a British ship shot the missile down for us. When we actually got into port later on I found some British sailors and bought them a round of drinks because we didn't really know which Brit ... we just heard that it was a British ship that shot the missile down. In turn ... you never know what really is gonna happen but in turn I kind of felt like they saved our lives. Waldrop: So how long were you guys over there during the Gulf War? I mean were you there the whole time? McCalvin: No, we were there for about a month but the actual Gulf War only lasted about seventeen days. Which really doesn't sound like much compared to the wars that we've had in the past, and the war that we're in now, but seventeen days in a war is more than I wanted to be in. Waldrop : So you said you kind of ... when it first broke out, until that missile started coming toward your ship would you say like it kind of had a surreal feeling? You knew you were in a war but you didn't really feel like it because you weren't actually fighting enemies ... McCalvin: Yes. I mean it was ... we weren't hand to hand combat or anything like that we were actually ... in the ... we actually ... like when our troops went in we actually lended ground fire to 'em. We shot missiles or we shot the sixteen inch guns to ... 7 �Waldrop: Soften them up? McCalvin : Pave the way, yea pave the way for them to get in and everything. We didn't really ... we really didn't think about it until the missile shot at us and we were like "whoa, we're in a war." Waldrop: So you said you were over there for a month. What did you do after the war was over? McCalvin: We went to Australia and Hobart, Tasmania which is an island off the coast of Australia. Went to Singapore, no, not Singapore. We went to Thailand and just relaxed. Like I said seventeen days isn't much of a war but it's more of a war than I wanted to be in. Waldrop: So how long did you get to stay in Australia? McCalvin: We were in Australia for ... six days. We were in Hobart, Tasmania for three days and we were in Thailand for four days and we went to several other ports. I've been all over the world and seen places that ... unless I strike it rich I'm not ever gonna be able to see again but I really enjoyed my time in the navy to be able to see those. I was lucky. There's people that don't even really see the outskirts of their state and I've been all over the world so I consider myself very lucky. Being able to scuba dive on the Great Barrier Reef is something that most people will never experience. Waldrop: So when you went to these different ports, Australia and Singapore and stuff, did you get shore leave? Did you get some time to go into the cities? McCalvin : Yes. When you're out ... when you're away from your home port you have duty every three days so if you're not on duty then you can go out and explore the city and meet new people and party and do whatever. As long as you're back for your duty they didn't really care what you do as long you don't get in trouble or hurt anybody. Waldrop: So when you went into Singapore and Pusan and places like that, obviously they're not English speaking countries, was there kind of a communication problem or were you able to find your way around pretty easily? McCalvin: Yea a lot of times if you met somebody, I remember when we were in Singapore, it was Christmas time and we met these two American girls and they could speak a little Chinese, Singapore is under Chinese rule, so they invited us for Christmas dinner and they gave us a slip of paper that had their address on it written in Chinese, so we gave it to the cab driver and he took us to the place that was supposed to be what was on the address and it was like this big huge mansion and I'm like "I don't think is the right place." So I went up and rung the buzzer and they asked "can I help you," and I was like "yea, we're two American sailors here for Christmas dinner," and they said "yea, come on in." So we told the cab driver that was fine and come to find out that it was the ambassador of Singapore from America ... it was his daughter 8 �that we met and a friend of hers. So we went in and had a nice Christmas dinner and it was kind of interesting. Waldrop: So did you have any other kind of experiences like that anywhere else? McCalvin : Hobart, Tasmania . We had just left Australia and I had twenty five dollars to my name and, so I decided I was going to go the casino and try to take that 25 dollars and turn it into more money. About 20 minutes later I was broke. So I sat next to an American guy and just watched him and he was racking up money, racking up money and I guess he got tired of me watching him and he took a dollar coin and put it into the machine I was sitting in front of, the one I had been playing all along, and he said go ahead and hit it if you get anything It's yours. I hit it, won 476 dollars, cashed it out, gave him his dollar back and partied for two days. Left Australia with a few little trinkets, bought a hat for my dad and some stuffed animals for my nephew and stuff. Left with 25 dollars, so I left with the same amount of money I came in with. It was kind of interesting. Waldrop: Yea. It sounds pretty fun. So you said you served on the Missouri for two years. The Gulf War was what '91? You serve your month or whatever in the Gulf War and then you just spend the rest of your time sailing around port to port? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop: When did you finally come back to the United States? McCalvin: June ... May, May or June of '91. Waldrop : Ok. Did you guys come back and then hang out here for a little bit here then go back out? McCalvin: Like I said we would go out for like 14 days or 6 days or whatever just kind of out in the middle of the ocean firing off our guns and stuff like that just to keep in practice. Waldrop: So where was your home port? McCalvin : Long Beach, California. Waldrop: Ok. McCalvin: Terminal Island. Waldrop: Ter? McCalvin : Terminal Island is where I was actually stationed at in Long Beach 9 �Waldrop : So ... after ...when did you get out of the navy? McCalvin : I actually got out early because they were decommissioning the Missouri. So I actually got to take 30 days, or 90 days early out, so I actually got out March 31, 1992. Then I kind of just hung out. I cashed out my vacation, I had some vacation, so I got money for that and they paid me for the next three months so I got a lump sum of money... that's really not good for a guy that's 26 years old and never had that much money in his life to go out and have 12 or 14 thousand dollars. I didn't save it, I blew it. I kind of partied for the next three or four months, and kind of chilled out. Waldrop : You were still in California? McCalvin: Yes. Waldrop: So ... you got out of the navy when you were 26. Why didn't you stay in? McCalvin : It got too political. I felt like, that if I was doing my job and doing the job to the best of my ability that I should be able advance in rank and people should leave me alone and let me do my job. It got to the point where people were wanting you to kiss their butt and if you didn't kiss their but then you kind of stayed the same rank you were. Even though you were passing your test ... you had to pass the test and then if you passed the test to advance in rank, then you had to go through a board and they decided whether you were gonna advance in rank or stay the same rank. I got passed over twice and just got done ...done with it. Waldrop: So what rank were you when you joined the navy? McCalvin: I was an E2 Waldrop: E2. Did you advance at all? McCalvin : Yes. I was an E4 when I got out. Waldrop : So is that like right below an officer? McCalvin: Well no, you go from El to E9. E9 is a master chief and then ... enlisted ...l was called an enlisted sailor. .. they're .. .from E1 to E9 and then you have warrant officers which are enlisted men that switch over to officers and then you have the officers. Basically an ensign is an officer but he's just an overpaid E4. He's the lowest ofthe low as far as officers. Waldrop: So you got of the navy when you were 26. You spent three months in California. What did you do after that? 10 �McCalvin: Came back to Georgia and just kind of chilled out for a little bit. Then got a job with a trucking company and worked it for a while. Then I liked the trucking business so I decided to move to North Carolina in 2003 and met a beautiful woman and just started a family. Waldrop: Why didn't you ... did you try and go to school after you got out of the navy? Could you go on the G. I. Bill or anything like that? McCalvin: Yea I started college and then I got to the point where I needed to make a living so I decided to just put college on hold for a little bit and go to work, and then I started making really good money and decided "what I need to go to college for?" So I never went back and have been working ever since. Waldrop: Alright. Do you keep in contact with any of your shipmates? McCalvin: Yea through facebook. I've written a few letters to different people before. I got introduced to facebook before facebook was introduced to the world. There's a couple that I talk to on the phone and everything. Yea I've kept in touch with them. Then there's people that I met while I was in the navy that they weren't in the military and I've kept in touch with them . It's kind of interesting. Waldrop: So do you ever think back ... about ... why you didn't stay in. Do you kind of regret getting out after four years? McCalvin: Yea there's times that I wish that I had've stayed in, I would've actually pulled my twenty year duty in 2008, I would've been in the military for 20 years but then I look at ... I guess as far as God ... God is gonna let me ...you know my life is gonna work the way God wants it to work and I would've met my family one way or another somehow if that was the family I was supposed to be with . I regret not goin in for ... staying in for 20 years but I also am glad that I got out and was able to meet my family and get married and have the family that I have. Waldrop: Ok. Do you ... are you part of any veteran's organizations or anything like that? McCalvin: I'm a member of the VFW and ... military.com has like an organization where it's kinda like a friends thing where you can hook up with friends that were in the military or maybe just meet somebody locally that was in the navy and just kind of hook up with them and kind of talk about their experiences and your experiences. Waldrop: So are you really active in that or just kind of ... ? McCalvin: Not as much as I used to be but it's always there and you can go back in any time and check your messages and get back in touch with the people you've talked to. Waldrop: Do they have reunions or anything like that? 11 �McCalvin: Not as far as being sanctioned by the US navy but I'm sure that if you got with a few buddies, your shipmates, and talked with them and y'all wanted to meet up with each other I'm sure you could work that out too. Waldrop: Ok. Weill guess that's .... is there anything that you'd like to say that I haven't asked you yet? McCalvin: I'm thankful for the military. I think that it would be good for any young person to go into and experience. My advice to anybody out there that was thinking about joining the military, join for two years, see if you like it. That way if you join for two years you're only in there for two years. If you join for four years and you don't like it then you're in there for four years. Two years would be the minimum that you could join for, join for two years and see if it's what you like then go from there. Waldrop: Alright, ok well thank you. McCalvin: You're welcome. 12 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c8544d5e102366fb8bd2cbffd3c74ee3.mp3 64a259793945880780d87ddda0f3e3d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. McCalvin, Tommy Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Waldrop, Nick Interview Date 2/19/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:35:52 File name 2013_063_McCalvin_Tommy_interview 2013_063_McCalvin_Tommy_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tommy McCalvin, 19 February 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Waldrop, Nick McCalvin, Tommy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Persian Gulf War, 1991 Veterans McCalvin, Tommy Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Tommy McCalvin enlisted in the US Navy in 1988 and fought in the 17-day Gulf War aboard the USS Missouri. He was trained as a diesel mechanic and his job was to blow up sea mines. He left the military after four years and recommends that anyone who is interested in joining, go for two years at first. ASVAB Test David H. Hill diesel mechanic Gulf War San Diego seamines Singapore Tommy McCalvin US Navy USS Missouri USS New Jersey VFW https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cad92d9b79bd0262e73154ab52ba1d5e.pdf c9d6dfa77af719a4f9bd24074705adea PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with James A. Love March 11, 2011 Crossnore, NC Brandi Bounds: It is March 11, 2011 and we are in Crossnore, NC, and I am interviewing James Love. And I am Brandi Bounds, a student at the History Department at Appalach ian State University and we will begin the oral history now. Where were you born and raised? James Love: Avery County, been here all my life. Brandi Bounds: And when is your birthday? James Love: March 7, 1949. Brandi Bounds: 1949? And when and why did you choose to join the military? James Love: Drafted. Brandi Bounds: Drafted. James Love: In the Marine Corps. Brandi Bounds: Marine Corps. Ok, that was, that was going to be my next question then . Which war and which branch of the service? James Love: Vietnam . Brandi Bounds: Vietnam . Which, what year or years did you serve? James Love: 1969 and 1970. Brandi Bounds: 1970. James Love: Spent 17 months and 22 days. Brandi Bounds: 17 months and 22 days in Vietnam . No? James Love: No, just 12 in Nam, but I did 17 months and 22 days. I spent a year in Nam . Brandi Bounds: Ok. And what was your rank when you were in? James Love: I was an E4 when I got out. �Brandi Bounds: E4. So that would be ... ? James Love: Corporal. Brandi Bounds : Corporal, ok. Right below sergeant. James Love: One below sergeant. Brandi Bounds: Ok. And do you remember arriving? What was it like in Vietnam? James Love: Scary place. I had never been there and you know, Lordy God, I went to 3rd MP Battalion, that's where I was stationed . There was a Marine Corps Brig, what it was. You went in there was a year. In went in right after Tet. Holes through the, big holes through the side of the hooch's, Brandi Bounds : Ok. James Love: where they had rockets and mortars. Brandi Bounds : Now the big holes were through what? James Love: Through the Brandi Bounds: Through the buildings? James Love: Hooch's is a sort of a Quonset hut type thang. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: Its what we stayed in . Big holes in them and stuff where rockets and mortars had hit them. Blown up and stuff. And all it was, was the brig. We had our own prisoners. Brandi Bounds : You had your own prisoners there? Oh my gosh. James Love : It was just a different world . Just everything, you know, everybody was. Brandi Bounds: Right. James Love : Anybody that said they wasn't, they was . They were lying. Brandi Bounds: Uh-huh. Wow. James Love: It was different world . �Brandi Bounds: Did it take awhile to adjust to the weather? James Love: Oh yes . Miserable. Rain . I've seen you can be soaking wet one minute and 15 minutes later completely dry. Brandi Bounds: Oh my gosh. James Love : That's how fast the temperature over there moves. Brandi Bounds: Uh-huh . Did you arrive there in the Spring or Winter? James Love: I got there in 'bout October. Brandi Bounds: '69? James Love: 1969. When I left here it was cold and when i got there it was hot. Brandi Bounds: Oh, so it really turned your systems around. James Love: It was a different world . We, well I had to go to California . Couple of months before, 'bout a month before I went over there . You got a little bit __there. Its just different. Brandi Bounds: Oh my gosh . James Love : You never know 'bout the people and where they was and stuff. Their habits, completely different. Most of them were, I don 't if you would call it silk, it looked like silk. But doubt it was silk, it was real thin clothes to where they didn't, didn't worry about the rain. It didn't bother them a bit. Brandi Bounds: It was because they had grown up with it? James Love: Ya. It was just a different way of life to us. Brandi Bounds: Oh my gosh . What was your job or assignments? James Love: MP. Brandi Bounds: MP. James Love: Ya, I worked in the brig. For awhile I was a Military Police then the last, my company pulled out come back to the world and the last four or five months I was in fire department. �Brandi Bounds: Fire Department over there? James Love: Ya, we had our own fire departments. I worked in ammo supply puttin' out fires . Brandi Bounds: I'm sure that, I hope that didn't happen too much. James Love: We put out a lot of fires. Brandi Bounds: How did they start? Were they targeted or just the heat? James Love: Where they'd shoot flares and stuff up and sometimes we'd get rockets set it off. And the, the ammo supply dump I worked in had two, three thousand pounds bombs in them, all kinds of shell casings and stuff, and howitzers and all that, and all they had to do was hit them. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. James Love: It was like parked cars . You had to go in and put them out. Brandi Bounds: Wow. were things spaced out within the ammo dumps so they didn't start a chain reaction? James Love: Ya, what they'd done, they had burms in between them, sorta like over at the high school (Avery County High School}, you know where they have the big .. . Brandi Bounds: The big domes? James Love: the burms, where the dirt was, that's the way it was there . They had all ammo in the different sections. Brandi Bounds: Oh ok. James Love: Different kinds of ammo. Brandi Bounds: That makes since . James Love: If all the powder and stuff in the buildings underground. Brandi Bounds: Oh ok, that makes since. Did you see any combat? James Love: You was always in combat. It was always there. I mean you didn't see no real combat, but most of it was you went down town on a fire and you'd get snipered at. Brandi Bounds: Right. �James Love: So you always had a gun with you or a weapon or something. Brandi Bounds : Ok. Where you ever wounded or anything? James Love : No . Brandi Bounds: No, ok . James Love : No, never was. I was lucky. Brandi Bounds: How did the rest of your unit fair in that department? James Love: Well we was in the rear, I was never, I wasn't five miles out at an angle the whole time I was there. Brandi Bounds : Ok. James Love: I was in the rear. You would get rockets, mortars, snipers but we never did, I think we got, I there was one boy killed while I was there. Brandi Bounds: Right. James Love: And that playing with a rifle . Brandi Bounds: Ok. How did you stay in touch with your family? James Love: Wrote letters. Brandi Bounds : Lots of letters. James Love : My mom kept every letter I ever wrote . And I still got them. She kept them in a box. Brandi Bounds : How long did the postal service take? James Love: I have no idea. We got Free letters. Brandi Bounds: Right . James Love: Didn't have to pay postage. So I don't know how long it took. Brandi Bounds: Weill just didn't know if it was quicker or faster or slower than today. You know for two weeks or month or something. �James love: We see you, you got to set and figure, it went all the way from the Nang to and it would have to go through a FPO box in the post office somewhere and I don 't know how long it took there for it to get here. Brandi Bounds: Right. James Love: Probably a week, two weeks . Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love : Never did think about it. You know it was just.. .. Brandi Bounds: Just happy to get mail? James love : Ya, that' s what it was. It was good to here from home. Brandi Bounds: What was the food like? James love: Fairly good food. Brandi Bounds: Did you? James Love : You know we had (-rations and stuf( that's not the greatest stuff in the world. But now some of the food was pretty good . The biggest majority we, 'bout like here, cause we didn't, we wasn't out in the bush, we had a mess hall and stuff. Brandi Bounds : Right, ok. James Love : It was just according, according to what kinds of meat they had is according to what you had to eat. Most of the vegetables and stuff was the same. Brandi Bounds: Was fresh? James Love: and potatoes Brandi Bounds: Ok, well I didn't know if you had a lot of powdered foods or not really? James love: No . Brandi Bounds: No really. James Love: Not back then, we had C-rations. �Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: C-rations are, I don't know if you have ever seen C-rations? They are in little boxes, 'bout like that, its got the whole meal in it. You'd get three or four cigarettes in a pack. think most of them, when I was over there in '69 and '70 most of the (-rations we had was made in back in the '50s. Brandi Bounds: Ok, left over from Korea. James Love: You think how some of that food had been in cans and .... Brandi Bounds: Did you guys swap food or did you ... James Love: Ya. Brandi Bounds: Or did you just know not to eat certain foods? James Love: Well we just, most of the time we, we did a lot of C-rations, most of ours was Brandi Bounds: Regular mess hall food? James Love: mess hall food . Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: We went right down there and we worked different, we worked one week on and one week off in the brig. Which is guarding prisoners. Just a matter of being there. Brandi Bounds: Oh my goodness. How many prisoners did you guys have there? James Love : I'd say 6-700. Brandi Bounds: 6 or 700, oh wow. For the most part were they calm or did they try and escape a lot oftimes? James Love: Most of them that I know were there were coming back home. They were waiting to be court marshaled and sent home. Brandi Bounds: So a lot of them were deserters? James Love : Deserters, people, I know, some of the boys I, we had one boy who killed everybody from his company commander to his first sergeant because they wouldn't let him go on R&R. Walked by and rolled a fragmentation grenade in their hooch. Its simple. �Brandi Bounds: So you didn't really have to many of the enemy prisoners just Americans? James Love : No we had ours . Brandi Bounds : Ok, so we had ours, no enemy prisoners. James Love: We had all the boys . Brandi Bounds: Now were a lot of them court marshaled there or were they waiting til the United States? James Love: Most ofthem had done been court marshaled . They was .. . Brandi Bounds: Just waiting. James Love: Just waiting for transport . Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: But most ofthem was court marshaled at their company units. Brandi Bounds: Ok. Tried by their peers, ok. Did you guys have plenty of supplies? James Love: We did. It was, we never did worry about it. Brandi Bounds: Right. James Love: Not in supply phase of it Brandi Bounds: You really don't notice it too much? James Love: You never notice it, all you do here and its there. You just go by and pick up ammo as you need it. Clothes and stuff we had, we took clothes we had, we always had big, we had our allowances, they give us our clothes. Brandi Bounds: Wow, I didn't know if it had changed or anything? James Love: I know they make a lot more money than we did. A hundred and twenty-six dollars a month. Brandi Bounds: That's how much you made was a hundred and twenty-six dollars a month? Oh wow. I guess, I guess it is very different today. James Love: It is. �Brandi Bounds: Wow. James Love: They still get allowances for clothes and stuff now. Most of the stuff is give to them when start. Part of it. Brand Bounds: Oh my gosh, lets see . How did you or others entertain yourselves? Because you said you worked one week and took one week off so I guess ya'll had to do something. James Love: We went down town and just, that's not a good question. Brandi Bounds: Ok, lets go to the next one. Did you guys pull any pranks amongst each other to entertain yourselves? James Love : That was part of it. We had our own place where we could go drink and stuff. We very seldom seen any shows, USO's was very few. Brandi Bounds : Ok. Now what part of Vietnam were you stationed in? James Love: The Nang, up North. Brandi Bounds : Nang? James Love: The Nang. Brandi Bounds: Nang, The Nang. Ok James Love: We was up North, we was pretty close, we weren 't too far from the DMZ. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love : Most of the Marine Corps was up North, down South was Army. Brandi Bounds: Ok, so ya'll were closer to the border. James Love : Ya, I'd say we was probably 150 miles from the DMZ. 200 something like that. Brandi Bounds : Ok. So that's not far at all. Did you guys have an air base right there too? James Love: Ya, we had a big air field right there. Brandi Bounds: Ok. �James Love: So I mean it was, I think everybody come into the air field and flew out, at least all the Marines. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: We had a big naval base there, it was all there. Brandi Bounds: How big was the base? I mean how many people did it house? You don't know? James Love: Thousands. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: Cause the Nang was one of the biggest cities. So it was, I'd say it was from 100,000 probably more than that. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow, so that's just the base: 100,000? James Love: Ya, that's not counting all the FLC. Brandi Bounds: The FLC is? James Love: Ya, FLC is Force Logistics Command. That was part of what we was under. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: They had all the supplies and everything. I'd say, think how much, all the supplies come into a place like that and shipped to all the other units. So I mean its a monster place. Brandi Bounds: Oh, wow. James Love: So we had a, we had a PX right across the road from when I was in the Fire Department, PX was right across the road from where I was stationed and used to go over there and buy just about anything. Anything you'd want. Brandi Bounds: So it was a large PX? James Love: Oh ya, you could buy groceries, you could buy clothes, you could buy any kind of electronics. Brandi Bounds: Now were most of the buildings, were they mostly similar to Quonset huts or were they actually built? �James Love: Some of them was built. Brandi Bounds: Buildings, concrete, and steel. Ok. James Love: Well most of them was wood. Brandi Bounds: Wood. James Love: Most of them that I was in. I wasn't in many that wasn't wood. Brandi Bounds: Did you guys have any air conditioning? James Love: No. Brandi Bounds: No air condition ing. James Love: No, there was no such thing as that . You could buy air conditioning, but if you was going to be somewhere that long. Brandi Bounds: It made since too, but if you were moving on ... James Love : you could get one . But most of the time nobody had any air conditioning. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: You just, you get used to it. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: The heat ain't good, but I mean its ... Brandi Bounds: I guess you adjust to it once you have been over there too. James Love: You adjust to it sooner or later, after you have been there awhile. Its cold when its raining and its hot when the suns out. Brandi Bounds: So there's really no median? James Love: There is no medium temperature . It, I've seen it so cold that it would shatter your shaving cup. Especially if the wind picked up, I mean it just, once you got wet, you just cold, there's no gettin' warm . Brandi Bounds: Did the base ever flood during monsoon season? �James Love: No, it didn't. I've seen it rain for days at a time. I mean it got muddy. Brandi Bounds: Lots of mud, but never flooding. James Love: No. Brandi Bounds: Well that was good. James Love: You never think about it, I mean, cause most of the water was out, you could see rice patties where stuff, where rice is and stuff. It was raining you just had a poncho you wore and put it on and went on. If it wasn't, well that was it. Brandi Bounds: And kept going? James Love: Yup. Didn't have to worry about it. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. Lets see, what did you do after you were out of the military? James Love: I got back here in October and I went to work probably right around then, went to working out on the golf course . Brandi Bounds: On the golf course, so October of 1970 when you got back here. Which golf course did you go back to work for? James Love : I worked at Seven Devils. Brandi Bounds : Seven Devils, ok. James Love: I worked there for quite a few years and then I worked at, I got back in '70, worked there for about two and half years. Then got engaged, I went there, then I went to Sugar Mountain and worked and then in '74 I come here and worked. And I've been here every since. Brandi Bounds: So you have owned and operated this gas station in Crossnore since 1974? James Love: Been here 37 years. Brandi Bounds: 37 years, that's a long time to own a business. James Love : Been a long time . Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. Did you maintain any relationships you had while in the military? No? Ok. �James Love: Nope, nobody I, nobody from here that I, the only person I ever met from here the whole time I was in service was Bob Franklin . Brandi Bounds: Bob Franklin. So just one person . James Love: And I met him in a chow line at Camp Lejune. Brandi Bounds: Oh, did you guys see each other when you were over in Vietnam? James Love: Nope, that's the only time I ever seen anybody from here . But he was from here at Jonas Ridge . I met him at chow line, I was going through getting chow and he was on KP duty. He looked me in the eye and I looked him and he said "I know you." I said "Ya, I know who you are. Your Franklin from Jonas Ridge ." He said "That's right." But that's the only time, the only person I seen I was there. Brandi Bounds: Oh my gosh . James Love: But all the boys that I went to be inducted with went to Army. Brandi Bounds: Ah, ok so most of them went James Love: And I got drafted in the Marines. They come through and said we want that one and that one. Brandi Bounds: Ok. James Love: I just happened to be "that one" . Brandi Bounds: "that one". Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or about the military in general? James Love: They should never make you fight a war you can't win. If they'd let us go ahead and do the job, it 'd been over. Brandi Bounds: But they didn't, they held you back? James Love: They won 't let you do it. Same way today. Brandi Bounds : You just can't James Love: Iraq same way, Afghanistan. Turn the place to glass. Brandi Bounds: Turn the place what? �James Love: Turn that place over there to glass. Drop a big bomb and watch that sand turn to glass. With them under it. Brandi Bounds: Did you join a Veteran's Organization? James Love: Yup, I'm VFW. Brandi Bounds: VFW member. Which post? James Love: Post 4286. Brandi Bounds: 4286. And does your post do any kinds of activities? James Love: Oh gosh we do a lot of activities for the community. Got a honor guard that does military funerals, we got a lot in Voice of Democracy, Pens out, theres a lot, if a young knew, there is all kinds of scholarships in the VFW. Voice of Democracy pays around $30,000 if you are the national winner. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. That's a huge one . James Love : I mean, there's all kinds of different ones, Patriot pens, there's are a lot of different things and they do a lot of them. You know, most people don't think VFW's do anything, We've got, we've thrown children's Christmas party every year for the underprivileged children. Easter, we have a Easter thing, this coming Easter for the youngins. Brandi Bounds: Awww, do you guys do an Easter egg hunt? James Love: Ya, but we all let the ladies do it. Brandi Bounds: Awww. James Love: We don't cook . Brandi Bounds: You let your wives do it. James Love : Ya, they do it we just smile and nod. Brandi Bounds: You smile and nod and glad there's food . James Love : Ya Brandi Bounds: Well, is there anything that you would like to add that we did not cover? �James Love: Na, it's just, it' s an experience. I think everyone should have to go to the military one time. Brandi Bounds: So like Israel does it? Everybody joins for two years. James Love: Ya, it would teach youngins a lot of responsibility. Brandi Bounds: It would . James Love: I wouldn't change anything from my military. I didn't do a lot but I mean I did, it just, it grows you up fast. Brandi Bounds: Meet another culture and just learn? James Love: Well not only that, you just learn about yourself. Cause when you are, I think my platoon when I went to Paris Island, there was about, I walked in down there, I remember when I walked into Paris Island, we'd walk in and there was a boy sitting over in the corner had both wrists slit. Blood flying everywhere. Drill Sergeant standing there saying son you'd better stop that blood or you'll be dead . You know that had to scare the boy to death. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. What happened to that boy? Do you know? James Love: Have no idea . They run us off on out the door. We got caught in the area . I mean we just walk in and he 's standing there, and blood's flying. And then, l's just had once 18, just turned 19. Brandi Bounds: You had just turned 19. When you went in for basic training? James Love: Yup, I was 19 when we went in. You know, you don't really think about stuff, we just talked about this stuff us boys have. We went, we went to California couldn't even drink a beer but could go die in Nam . Could go into a bar and nobody would serve you . Wasn 't old enough . Brandi Bounds : Still needs to be addressed today. James Love: I mean we could go to Nam and get killed but you couldn 't have a beer. Brandi Bounds: Have you been to D.C. to see the Vietnam memorial? James Love: Nope, but I have seen the, the rolling wall. Traveling Wall. Brandi Bounds: The Traveling Wall. James Love: Its going to be at Marion (NC) in May. �Brandi Bounds: Oh is is going to be in Marion in May? Ok. James Love : Traveling box. I've seen it in Johnson City (TN) two years ago. Brandi Bounds: Ok, I'll have to see if I can go down and see that. James Love: It is, it is a very, very moving thing. They have a lot of letters. They ask people to bring stuff. They ask us to bring stuff to this one down here. Most of ours don't though. A lot of them just don't comment. People that's been there, typically don't. Brandi Bounds: I know its hard. James Love: I know one boy, I've got some buddies that I graduated with that was blown up. One of them, whole right side, re-done his whole face and the other one got shot three times. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. James Love: Wayne Holden. Brandi Bounds: Wayne Holden? Which was he, Vietnam Army? James Love: Ya, he had boys killed on both sides of him . He got, I think he got three purple hearts. Brandi Bounds: Oh wow. James Love : He got shot through the arm, through the leg, through the hip. Brandi Bounds : At the same time? James Love : All in the same place. Brandi Bounds: That was a rough day. James Love : I guess its just one of them things . You don't think about it . Until it happens. War ain't no fun. Brandi Bounds : It's romanticized to much . James Love: Well it ain't what everybody thinks it is. Brandi Bounds : Well thank you very much. �James Love: Well I'm glad to help you. Do what I can. Brandi Bounds : Its wonderful. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/dfe65604fef41486275b8006edbe20f0.mp3 bc1dfe62f0a880dcce2addd45fac53d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Love, James A. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Bounds, Brandi Interview Date 3/11/2011 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:24:48 File name 2013_063_Love_JamesA_interview 2013_063_Love_JamesA_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James A. Love, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bounds, Brandi Love, James A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 17 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Love, James A. Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource James A. Love describes his service in northern Vietnam (Nang) as a part of the Marine Corps. James A. Love letters Marine Corps monsoon Nang VFW Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3abd054bf2e80fbcfd85163fc4768a92.pdf a5c75172c5947c870e1bc69f1bc3a388 PDF Text Text Interview with Frank E. Koehl Dr. Browning Charlie Widner 3/14/2011 �Charlie: Alright can you please state your name? Frank: My name is Frank E. Koehl, K.O.E.H.L. I was born in 1934. Charlie: Alright. .. what branch of the service did you join? Frank: I joined the United States Navy in 1951 . Charlie: ...were you involved in any wars? Frank: No. Charlie: ... did you enlist or were you drafted? Frank: I enlisted. Charlie: Okay ... Frank: My father signed for me and I was only 17 at the time. Charlie: Where were you living at the time? Frank: Takoma Park, Maryland. Charlie: ... why did you join the navy? Frank: Because my whole family was in the navy and I felt I should join too. Charlie: ... Frank: My great-grandfather, my father, and my son. So I joined for that reason. Charlie: And that's why you picked the navy instead of any other branch ... Well, tell me a little bit about your ... training experience of boot camp. If you can remember anything ... Frank: Well, boot camp was pretty hard because they wanted you not to ask why they tell you to jump, you just jump. I went through boot camp and then they found out I was a good swimmer so they put me into teaching swimming. And I never got on a ship. Charlie: Alright. .. do you , do you remember any of your instructors; boot. .. your boot camp instructors or any ... ? Frank: I can't remember any names, no. �Charlie: ... was it; was it hard to stay in touch with your family while you were in the navy? Frank: They, they stayed in touch with me, yea. Charlie: What were some was that people entertained themselves? Frank: In the navy? Charlie: Yea. Frank: We'd go downtown, to the bars. Have a few drinks, watch the girlies, and then go back to base. Charlie: ... did ... can you remember any particular funny or unusual event while you were in the navy. Or while ... you went to downtown? Frank: The Korean War started while I was in the Navy. Well, they call it a conflict now. But I didn't get involved in it at all. Charlie: Well, where were ... where were you stationed? Frank: Great Lakes Naval Training Station, Chicago. Charlie: What was your. .. rank? Frank: I don't know. I guess they had some kind of a teaching ... system and I forgot what it was. Charlie: Oh that's fine ... let's see. So you didn't.. .you didn't see any combat or anything like that? Frank: No, thank God for that. Charlie: Yea ... well. .. how did you get along with your fellow soldiers? Frank: Oh, I got along good with them, especially the recruits Charlie: Yea ... Frank: ... that I was teaching. Charlie: Yea ... Frank: I went in when I was seventeen and by the time I was eighteen, I was teaching. I was a teacher already. �Charlie: Yea ... do you ...do .. . did you make close friendships with anybody while you were in the Navy? Frank: Oh lots of them but I couldn't tell you the name of them now. Charlie: So ... Frank: Some of them have passed away. Charlie: So ... Frank: I'm 77 so you can see that was a long time ago. Charlie: Right. .. so ... you, you were not able to continue the relationships because you lost touch with them right? Frank: Yea. When I graduated. Charlie: Well do you remember the day that you ... your service ended? Frank: Yea, September of '54 I believe. Charlie: What did you do the days and weeks afterward like how did cope with not being in the navy? Frank: I just became a regular citizen again. Charlie: Did you .. . Frank: I went home for a while and got a job at a gas station, and bought an old car and just became a normal teenager. Charlie: Yea ... so that was your. .. so you just got a job right after is how you coped? Frank: Yea. Charlie: Well how did being in the navy affect your life? Frank: It taught me how to be aware of what's, what's going on. Charlie: Right. .. so your life would be different if you hadn't had joined the navy. Frank: Oh yea, I would have been lazy. Charlie: So it made you .. . �Frank: When they said , "jump," I jumped. Charlie: So now you're more motivated to do things for yourself. Frank: I was, yea. Charlie: Oh well, yea. Well ... did you travel anywhere while you were in the service? Frank: No I never left the base when I was in the service ... Charlie: Okay .. . Frank: ... except to go downtown Chicago. Charlie: Because you were, you were teaching right? Frank: Yea, I could have went home for a week or two. Charlie: Is there ... is there anything else you'd like to cover, any stories or anything like that, that you can remember about the navy? Frank: The only thing is that I was good at swimming under water. And they put me in the UDT, Underwater Delimination (Demolition) Team and we'd swim under water and put bombs on ships. Of course I didn't have to do that but we'd teach them how. Charlie: Do you remember any of your fellow soldiers having to go to the Korean War? Frank: All of them did when they graduated. Most of them anyway. Charlie: Well how did that make you feel? Frank: Good , because I didn't have to go. Charlie: Yea .. .did any of your close friends have to go? Frank: Oh yes. I was in special training so I didn't. .. I mean people would go through boot camp were training and when they got there boot camp training done they shipped them overseas, but I didn't have to go. Charlie: Well that's good .. .well, if there's any ... nothing else that you'd like to share, I guess we're good to go. Frank: I hope it'll do you some good. Charlie: Alright. .. well, thank you for taking the time to interview with me. �Frank: You're welcome. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e50b9a12d215815558d7f4d5322a04da.mp3 05dc2ea461e49ac7c043c61a861b0f56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Koehl, Frank E. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Widner, Charlie Interview Date 3/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:08:37 File name 2013_063_Koehl_Frank_interview 2013_063_Koehl_FrankE_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank E. Koehl, 14 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widner, Charlie Koehl, Frank E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 6 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Veterans Koehl, Frank E. United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Frank E. Koehl served in the US Navy during the Korean War, but never had to leave the Naval Training Station in Chicago. He was a teacher there and served on the Underwater Demolition Team. Chicago Frank E. Koehl Korean War Naval Training Station Underwater Demolition Team US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4eed3bb4f2e1f3f228b9a19603fc61ad.pdf 6b8dbd3cf1fc0069cf4570ef35814d29 PDF Text Text 1 Transcript of Oral History Project March 11th 20 11 Dr.Browning Jordan Jessup Interview of Joe Bill Jessup Jordan Jessup: My name is Jordan Jessup and ... I am interviewing my uncle Joe Bill Jessup and the date is March 11th 2011 , and ... I'm in ... in his home at this time and ... I am just doing an interview for my class, and ... just bare with me. Jordan Jessup: I'd like to start off the question by asking: were you drafted or did you enlist? Joe Bill Jessup: I enlisted. Jordan Jessup: How long were you in, in service? Joe Bill Jessup: I was in there 4 years. Jordan Jessup: Where were you living at the time that you were, that you enlisted? Joe Bill Jessup: I was living in Surry County. Jordan Jessup: OK ... Where did you join? Joe Bill Jessup: Mount Airy Jordan Jessup: He joined in Mount Airy North Carolina, Which branch of service did you serve in? Joe Bill Jessup: U.S. Navy. Jordan Jessup: Do you remember anything from boot camp that happened when you first joined, or anything like that? Joe Bill Jessup: Well I yes, I remember how a change of life was, I was living on a farm and then I went into the military and this training was a big adjustment for me. Jordan Jessup: Uh ... Was it a good experience for ya? Joe Bill Jessup: Was a real good experience it, it changed my life it made a man out of me. �2 Jordan Jessup: Uh. What were some of the interesting places that you went? Joe Bill Jessup: .... Well, I went to San Diego, to take my training then I boarded I was assigned to the USS Tuscan a light Cruiser stayed on that cruiser for a year then I was transferred to heavy cruiser which was uh USS Helena I was first USS Tuscan but I was transferred to the USS Helena. Jordan Jessup: ... What was your job on the ship? Joe Bill Jessup: I was a gunner' s maid. I had the maintenance and the daily operation I was in a gun chamber a turret on the ship. Jordan Jessup: Did you have some memorable experiences on the ship? Joe Bill Jessup: Yeah. We urn. Was assigned to the ... my assignment I got was an apprentice to the gunners maid and then I every daily I had to maintain this five inch thirty eight gun it had thirteen people aboard on one gun that's what it took to fire from the bottom of the ship the handling room to the second handling room to the gun chamber and then urn when we to then I went to Korea that's where it took place then I was a pointer. A pointer. .. gets the target in view and he' s the one that does the pushing the peddle to fires the ammo. Jordan Jessup: Ok Jordan Jessup: Well what was it like being away at home since you' d never been anywhere? Joe Bill Jessup: Well, it was a uh new experience it was so much interest in things were happening day by day that I had never encountered and so it kept my mind occupied away from home, at that present time. Jordan Jessup: Was it an exciting lifestyle or was it very stressful or... ? Joe Bill Jessup: It was a very exciting lifestyle. We uh. Left and went from place to place and we traveled uh before the Korean war, before the Korean war we was in Hawaii and went to Japan and from Japan I was in China and from China I went to a lot of places uh like the Philippine islands and a lot of places that we traveled I saw the people doing different things and it was always educational for me. Jordan Jessup: Hum. Did you meet some interesting people while you were over there? Joe Bill Jessup: Very interesting people very interesting I was uh communicating, I always like to get involved and find out what other peoples doing and I was on other ships that pulled beside us in Japan, it was from Australia, I enjoyed going aboard other ships and other things to see how �3 they did things and how we did them. And I would say that the Americans was far ahead of all the other ships id ever been on. Jordan Jessup: Uh. Well this, this is part 2 of the interview. What was the last day like that you were in service? Do you remember it? Joe Bill Jessup: Very well, I had uhjust married and I'd taken my wife to California and I was, I was stationed at long beach California and then I went to San Diego to get a discharge and it was uh, and I couldn' t hardly wait till I got back uh to long beach for the journey back in civilization I was gonna be a civil man. Jordan Jessup: So, where were you at when your service ended? You was in California. Joe Bill Jessup: I was in California. I was discharged in San Diego. Jordan Jessup: So when you come home, ... what did you do after your service? Joe Bill Jessup: Well, I was worked in a mill and that didn' t go good, the mill work was not my thing. I started a hardware store business and a grocery store business and that was my life and uh and a being in grocery stores and hardware stores and then I went into the auto parts business and then I tried the I did some of the restaurant business and I, I There again I met a lot of people and enjoyed talking to a lot of people. Jordan Jessup: So you moved back to Surry County? Joe Bill Jessup: Moved back to Surry County and been in Surry County the rest of my life. Jordan Jessup: Uh after your military, did you ever stay in touch with people you' d met during your uh time in the service? Or? Joe Bill Jessup: Yes, Id visited some of the people that was in Arkansas and different places that uh we really got close together was real close friends and I had to travel again in the states from place to place, and I enjoyed traveling, and enjoyed talking with other people. Jordan Jessup: ... How did your service experience affect your life? How did it affect you? Joe Bill Jessup: I think it changed me completely, I think ifl hadn't been in the service, it really give me a foundation, and uh with uh people who was uh grounded and knew where they was headed I would have never been able to do anything of this nature. I'd have never been able to be in the business world I would have never been able to travel like I traveled its uh big educational throughout my life in the military. �. . 4 Jordan Jessup: So you pretty much got to see the world. Joe Bill Jessup: Yes I did, I was very fortunate to see the different parts and then you can tell other people that's never been, you can sort of tell them too you know. Jordan Jessup: In closing, is there anything that you' d like to add about your military service that, that really comes to your mind ... I know ... growing up you were told me one time about going to Japan. Joe Bill Jessup: Yeah uh, that, that was our home port. Really in Yokosuka, Japan in of course you know uh we was there in 1948 and 49 ofthe beginning and WWII had just ended and Japan at that time was coming out from under a great time in their life there' s hunger, people out of work and uh they lived in that day 48 and 49 and uh I saw the loving people that I thought were different till I got when I went there uh I met these people and they had a different look and a different side that id ever heard in the United States so them people relayed the how love and care that id never saw before in my life. It just changed my life. Jordan Jessup: That's wonderful .... I'd just like to thank you Joe Bill Jessup, for doing this interview for me and uh thanks for your military service. Joe Bill Jessup: I appreciate, I'm honored that you' d ask me to do this it' s a great honor, and I hope maybe some where along life' s road that other people would like to follow military and uh do great things and enhance you to do other things in life as you retire or as you discharge from the military. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a0ec350c4bf7892c081356cee607a26c.mp3 39c9de9b54e7301e99b511b6661ba263 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Jessup, Joe Bill Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Jessup, Jordan Interview Date 3/11/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:11:10 File name 2013_063_Jessup_JoeBill_interview 2013_063_Jessup_JoeBill_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joe Bill Jessup, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jessup, Jordan Jessup, Joe Bill Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 4 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource United States Veterans Jessup, Joe Bill Korean War, 1950-1953 Gunner's Mates Navy Interviews Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Joe Bill Jessup talks about working as a gunner's mate on the USS Helena during the Korean War. He was stationed in Yokosuka, Japan. gunner's mate Joe Bill Jessup Surry County US Navy USS Helena USS Tuscan Yokosuka Japan https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/b4f77b05533202a32151c4de02d37fba.pdf bcb3ed0bd7751f3ae1a6ea655f7663bd PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript Derek Huss Derek: It is September 23rd 2012, we are in Lewisville NC, I am interviewing my father, Petty Officer Allen Huss, born on December 30, 1950. I am Derek Huss, from Appalachian State University, and we will begin the oral history now. First off, were you drafted or were you enlisted? Allen: I enlisted. Derek: Where were you living at the time? Allen: With my parents in Lincolnton, NC. Derek: What made you decided to join, and what branch of service did you go into? Allen: I decided to join because the draft was taking men age 19 because of the Vietnam War, I was going to school at Gaston College at the time, but really didn’t have any direction, as to what I wanted to do with my life, sooner or later I figured the draft was gonna get me anyway, and I did not want to go into the army. That's why I decided to join the Navy. D: How much college had you gone through when that happened? A: A year and a half. Plus the first draft lottery since WWII had started a month earlier in the December of 1969 and my birthday was chosen 3rd. D: So you joined...? A: I joined a month later, on Jan. 26, 1970. D: Okay. Tell me about training. A: I was sent with several other men from around the Charlotte area to Great Lakes training center between Chicago and Milwaukee on Lake Michigan. Training, boot camp, back then, was 13 weeks. They turned ordinary citizens into military men in a matter of weeks. Training is hard, you go to school during the day, you stand watches at night, participate in athletics, and we had a good basketball team. It was company against company. We had a swimming team, and we competed against each other in the classroom, on the athletic fields, so we didn't get to play a lot of sports, that was usually a Saturday morning thing. The rest of the time you were marching, eating or sleeping, or going to class. D: Do you remember your instructors, or have any stories from training? A: Our commanding officer was a chief. A little short, mean guy. Chief Lorreat was his name. IT was his first experience in boot camp, like us, but he was a chief, of course he had been in the navy for 20 something years. And by the time boot camp was over we were all pretty good friends. We learned to respect him, and I think he learned to respect us. D: So it was a learning experience for both of you. �A: Plus we won a bunch of flags. We won the I flag, we were the smartest comp in boot camp at the time. We won the A flag, which meant we were the most athletic, and those were the two he wanted so... D: So those competitions, were they based on just where you were, or a broader area? A: The whole boot camp. D: Oh Okay. A: For every company in boot camp, we competed against. Like I said we had a good basketball team, which I played on, we had a good swimming team, which I swam on, and we had some very smart, intelligent guys in our company so we won the I flag. A company in boot camp is around 60 men, 60 to 70 men, each company sleeps in its own barracks, don’t really mix with another company unless you’re playing in sports against them or eating in the mess hall. But you usually separated and just with your friends in the company that you make while you’re in boot camp, and you become good friends very quickly cause it’s all you do. In the 13 weeks I was there we had two days of leave, and they were toward the end of the 13 weeks where you[‘re] getting near that graduation date. One day we took the train to Chicago and the next Saturday we got a leave to Milwaukee. Saw my first Major League Baseball game in Chicago in April of 1970. Free tickets from the USO and froze to death in White Sox Stadium. D: Alright. Moving on. Which war or wars did you serve in? A: I was in service during the Vietnam War D: And where exactly did you go? A: Well after boot camp I was sent to Bambridge Maryland, I was very lucky I had scored high on the test and they wanted to make me a radioman, so I was sent to Bambridge, Maryland, one of the Navy’s best A schools. They had A schools, B schools, and C schools. A School’s were the top Navy schools, and several of my friends from boot camp went to Bambridge, Maryland with me to radio school. There were four of us from that company that went to radio school. The first night we were there we met a guy that was from charlotte and the bowling alley. He was graduating and leaving his apt that he rented, we immediately took over the next week and I didn’t have to spend 5 days in the barracks the whole time I was there D: Alright. So what was your assignment? A: On the ship? D: Right, yeah. A: I was radioman. And I had a top secret clearance by the end of 1972. Which cleared the way for me to become petty officer and watch supervisor. �D: So you got on the ship, did you ever see combat? A: Uh, no. Thank goodness. We were in the Mediterranean during the Yom Kippur war, which is the second time the U.S. military went to DEFCONN 2, other than the Cuban missile crisis. Ship I was on was the FDR, there was another carrier in our group in the Mediterranean, the USS Independence, and we were all in main comm., the ship went on general quarters and stayed that way for the entire war, lasted about 10 days. D: You said no combat, were there any casualties in your unit? A: We lost, we lost several guys just from accidents, being washed overboard, one guy died one day shaving, and he had a brain aneurysm. When you have 4500 men on one ship, things are gonna happen. We lost several pilots; we lost two jets in 30 seconds. Off the coast of Puerto Rico our steam catapults failed and two jets crashed within 30 seconds of each other, all the pilots were lost. There were deaths. Whenever we took on fuel or supplies, any cargo or water tankers would pull up beside us and we would be moving, we wouldn’t stop like the Russian navy, we were always moving to refuel or to resupply. they would let the elevators down that takes the planes up to the flight deck from the hangar bay, and if it’s rough seas big waves, it can, they can wash a man overboard, and that happened one night while we were refueling, and no one saw him go over. The next morning during roll call they discovered he had disappeared. Of course they never found the man. We did have one that was lucky. He was washed over during the day time and the Russian destroyer that was following us picked him up and one of our helicopters went over and retrieved him off the Russian ship. D: Geez. Well you mentioned a few but uh, can you give us a couple of your most memorable experiences? A: Well, radiomen, you’re either on a 8 hour watch or port and starboard, which means 12 hours on, 12 hours off, and during heavy NATO exercises or during, like the Yom Kippur war, of course there’s a lot of messages coming in. As the battle groups aircraft carrier, we had 8 or 9 ships surrounding us; they did not have the radio rooms we did. We had 3 radio rooms on the ACC, we would take their radio traffic, which is called traffic, and have to send it to them on another teletype machine, cause they didn’t have the room for all of the equipment that would be necessary to go back and forth between a land base or other ships. So in fact, we were taking traffic for 8 ships, not just our one ship. D: And if you don’t mind me cutting in here, can you describe what kind of equipment you had in the radio room? A: Well our printers were old teletype machines, they don’t use those anymore, but they were big loud and bulky. We had different rooms, we had a broadcast room, which usually had 8 to 10 teletypes running full 24 hrs a day, one broadcast operator who had to check every message coming over. We had a TGO room, which is a task group room that we would receive and send messages to our task group. we had an office, that did the printing other messages that would go to the offices that the diff messages were addressed to, runners would come from these different departments, all over the ship to get their messages once every hour or two. In case of a flash message or top secret message, a �runner or messenger would have to go find the Capt. or the executive officer to deliver those messages by hand. D: And then to steer us back on track, can you give us the story about the few days leading up to the Yom Kippur, when you were heading to Vietnam, and had to come back? A: Well, we were in 1972; Nixon tried to bomb Hanoi into the peace table in Paris where the peace talks were going on. Nobody ever understood what President Nixon was trying to do; I don’t think his close assistants knew what he was trying to do. What he was trying to do in ‘71 was get re-elected in ‘72. So he didn’t want to cause any more trouble to the American public, of course it was ... the 60’s, the late 60’s were a wild time with the assassinations, schools, just, a lot of demonstrations against the Vietnam war, and the president, don’t know if he really wanted to get out of Vietnam in the early 70s, I think he found it to be to his advantage to have a war. But in 1973 he ordered 22 carriers off the coast of Vietnam, North Vietnam, and that when we started bombing Hanoi. We were on our way out of the med, to head for Vietnam and that when the Yom Kippur war started that night. We had no idea it was starting, and neither did the Israeli’s, they were attack from three sides by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. And it was on the first night of the Yom Kippur, which is a very religious holiday, so a lot of their military was off, on leave, and that was their plan. They attacked them at a weak time, where their military was not ready. So the first two days they were really defeating Israel on two fronts, and it looked bad. Of course the U.S. was trying to stay out of it; Soviet Union was trying to stay out of it. But if it had gone any farther or if either side had started to use an atomic weapon on the other, then that would’ve led to the Soviet Union coming in and the United States answering. D: So how far did the Roosevelt make it? A: We were off the coast of Egypt in less than a day. We were at the eastern end of the Mediterranean when we got the call. Compared to the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean’s, the med is like a pond. But the Russians kept a navy of 90 ships in that pond. And we had two carrier groups. It was uh, D: Stacked against you. A: Our mission was to launch our jets, and then we were expendable. So when they started loading the nukes that night... everybody knew we were in for it. D: Well luckily nothing ever happened from it. A: Nope, we never got the call to launch. Of course we were launching our jets, but not with nuclear weapons. But there were a lot of jets loaded with nuclear weapons. They were ready to go. We had a Russian tattle tale we called 'em. It was either a destroyer or a guided missile cruiser come up beside us that night, pointed every missile and gun at us, I was in main comm., so I couldn’t go out and look at, and I was told I didn’t want to look at it, it was just about 100 ft beside us, we had a submarine surface near us, Russian submarine. During that time they said it was right under us following us around. You can’t hide an aircraft carrier in the pond. D: Now you mentioned you have a report saying that sub had been following you for awhile right? �A: They claimed that they were under us the whole time we were in the Mediterranean. We would disguise our lights at night if we weren’t having air ops, try to make the ship look like another type of ship, especially sailing around some of the Greek isles, we would try to lose ‘em at night, but nothing worked. They knew where we were all the time. It was probably from that submarine. We also had fly over’s from Bears, which is a huge bomber. It had six propellers and four jets, and we called those fly over’s, we would usually launch two to four F4 Phantoms to try to head ‘em off, like 200 miles away. They would still fly over us, just to basically tell us they could kill us anytime they wanted to. Two of our Phantoms were flying on either side of a bear one night and uh the pilot of the Russian Bear dropped his wing and damaged the F4 wing, almost made him crash but he made it back to the ship. They would send ships in front of us during air ops and during air ops you have to hold a steady course. One day while we were refueling a destroyer came up between and we had to have an emergency breakaway spilling jet fuel and all kinds of fuel into the ocean. Russian navy was, they were pretty wild. Anything they could do to disrupt our mission, they did it. D: Okay, thank you. We’re gonna move on. Were you awarded any medals or citations during your service? A: Several citations for NATO exercises, which included all the NATO navy's, especially Great Britain, France, Italy, Germany. Sometimes turkey, Greece, and I of course was awarded the national defense medal for being in the military. D: Alright now I’m gonna ask you a few questions about life in the service. First off, how did you stay in touch with your family? A: Well, mainly it was letters. Writing letters. It took 30 days for a letter to get from our ship when we were overseas back to home. So, it wasn’t instant communication, of course there were no cell phones, no telephones, no computers, no webcams. For the most it was good ole, writing a letter, and mailing it from the ship. we had several, what we called COD's, which were propeller driven airplanes, they would bring in mail, and take the mail off, but that didn’t happen every day, it was more like twice a week. D: What was the food like on the Roosevelt? A: Food was terrible. The ship was 25 years old when I got on it in 1970, it had been built and commissioned in 1945, and the mess decks were exactly the same as they were when they built the ship. So, the food was awful. it was 4500 men on the ship and serving 4 meals a day, had a meal at midnight for people who were working all night, and us being in the radio room we worked 24 hours a day, so you go down and before you went on watch at 11 or 11:30 and they called midrats, midnight rations, and it was usually the leftovers from dinner, and dinner was usually the leftovers from lunch. We had a meal that we called red death, nobody knew exactly what it was, but 30 minutes after you ate it, you had to find a commode. D: Now you mentioned you got care packages every once in awhile... �A: Care packages from mom. Alot of guys got care packages; mom’s specialty of course was sending me brownies which were a big hit with my friends. Good friend of mine was from Brooklyn NY, and he use to get these care packages from his parents which included Italian and Sicilian meats of all kinds... pepperonis and ... so I remember one meal, of pepperoni and brownies. And peaches, go down and get a can of peaches. Being in the radio room, it had its advantages. We knew football scores before the rest of the ship did. So we would go bet with the bakers on the NFL scores and we already knew who won, so we won a lot of bread. And that was the only good thing they made on that ship, was good baked bread. D: So supplies were never an issue on the ship, were they? A: Fresh things were. We would run out of milk after about 3 or 4 days, and switch to bug juice or powdered milk. Fresh milk was great. Sometimes we had chocolate milk, then we would go to bug juice, which was weak kool-aid. Of course there was always coffee in the radio room, and sometimes we had tea bags, we could make tea. There were several coke machines on the ship. They usually ran out of syrup abut a day or two after we left port. And I believe it was a dime for a little cup of 8 oz drink of some kind. But they weren’t too good. D: So did you ever feel pressure, or any stress? A: In the radio room we had pressure all the time. The Capt. would come down; the night the Yom Kippur war broke out I was in charge of broadcasts, he came into the radio room, he pointed at me and said 'whatever you do, do not let the broadcasts go down tonight, of course I was in traffic, not in the radio dept. As soon as he left main comm., all of my machines went down, the Russians were jamming us. And we could not receive any messages. So just seconds after he pointed his finger at me and said 'whatever you don’t let the broadcasts go down tonight', it did. So without communications, a ship or a battle group is virtually blind. So it was a scary night. it took us several hours to get our broadcasts back, communications with uh... we had several land bases, one outside Athens Greece, one in Morocco, and one in Rota, Spain, so depending on where you were in the med, that’s where you got your traffic, your radio traffic from, were these land bases. D: So you travelled all around the Mediterranean, did you visit any places in particular on leave? A: One time a friend of mine, we took off; we took leave to Paris and London England, travelling by train from Barcelona. and actually we were headed into Neis, France, which is on the French Riviera, right below Monte Carlo, we had already purchased our train tickets, the ship was going to be late, by about an hour after our train left the station, so our division officer secured two spots on a helicopter that was leaving, so we were about 50 miles off shore and he got us on the helicopter and the helicopter took us to an airport, we caught a cab to the train station just as the train was leaving, we hopped on it. D: Wow. A; And didn’t miss our train. And we spent a great week and a half in Paris and London. the rest of the time we would get over night leave, because there were 100 radiomen on board, and when we went �into a port, most of the time we would have overnight leave, we would get a night on shore, whereas most of the other men on the ship did not get that, they had to be back at 10 o’clock, by ten o’clock that night. So we were very lucky, we got to spend two days at work, two days off, especially at big ports like Barcelona, Naples, Athens. We would get overnight livery, and that was great. D: So how did people entertain themselves on the ship? A: We did get magazines, of course we did have the armed forces radio, and being in main comm., we listened to that a lot. We had our own TV station, that operated from 4 o’clock to 10 o’clock every day, showing real bad movies. Sometimes we had a good movie. Sometimes they would show playboy after dark. There was always a prayer by the chaplain; we had church services every Sunday, and Saturday for the Catholics. most of the time you were either working or sleeping, there wasn’t much time for, uh, when you were at sea you ... it’s all you did. If you weren’t working you were getting ready to work, or you were resting after being at work, it was very loud, and very busy in radio. D: Are there any pranks or humorous events that you can remember? A: On slow nights if all the officers were gone we would have little contests or try to remember like, how many rock groups can you name in 5 minutes. Things like that. But uh, usually when we were off we were eating or getting rest. We didn’t have any type of recreation whatsoever. Some of the guys did purchase some weight lifting equipment, in the Void, which is an empty room where we kept all of our sea bags and uniform or what we didn’t need, they made a little workout area. Where you could go lift weights and whatever. But that was about it. D: So very, very serious on the ship? A: It was always serious. 24 hours a day serious. Sometimes if the admiral wasn’t aboard we would have access to the admiral’s bridge, which was right under the captain’s bridge, and we could sit up there on the admiral’s chair and watch flight ups sometimes at night, it was kinda cool. I remember one night I just fell asleep in the admirals chair and stayed up there all night, sleeping. D: Okay, thank you. We’re gonna move on, after service, couple of questions, do you recall the day your service ended? A: Mhmm. Yes. Well we were in Athens when I was given the ticket home. They woke me up at about 2 in the morning and told me my flight was leaving Athens airport at 6, to pack my bags, which they already were, I had applied for a school cut. I got out of the navy a month early so I could attend Western Carolina Univ. It was about ten days before Christmas, about the 15th of December, I said goodbye to several friends that were in their bunks, I couldn’t wait to get off the ship and fly home. So at 6 the next morning, I was on a C130, flying out of Athens international airport, and we flew right over the Roosevelt, and flew all the way across the Mediterranean to Rota, Spain, spent one night there, caught a flight to Frankfurt, Germany, spent just several hours there before I caught a back flight home, which is the military air command, and it was a regular Boeing 707, a lot of military people, a lot of families, heading home for Christmas. Flew into Philadelphia airport where I was taken by a military car, �several of us were heading for Philadelphia navy base, where I was to be given my top secret talk where I had to sign papers saying I wouldn’t divulge information that I had seen for 25 years. Unfortunately, the officer that was going to give me my briefing left to go on Christmas leave, and I never got the talk. So he never signed my release, and I walked in to the office one morning to check to see how I was being discharged, how that was going, and everyone was gone. it was two days before Christmas, it was Jan-- December 23rd, I looked at the watch officer and I said 'where's everybody at?' and he said 'well they've all gone home for Christmas.', and I said I need one more signature and I’m out of here. And he said 'I can’t help you'... he said 'let me uh, let me go find the commanding officer, see what we can do for you, you might be here for two weeks till everybody gets back'. Fortunately, he felt sorry for me, he said 'do you promise not to say anything for 25 years?' I said 'Yes sir.' and he said 'get out of here. Go get your plane'. So I took a cab or a bus out to the airport and I was home in about 12 hours. At Charlotte airport I took a Trailways bus and surprised the heck out of my parents the next morning, which was Christmas Eve. D: Must've been a good day A: It was great day. A great day. D: So you got back home, did you go back to work or school? A: Ten days later I was in enrolled in Western Carolina Univ. Started January 3rd. A good friend of mine had already found me an apartment, living with him, so we went up for New Years Eve thinking we were going to some great party, well we got up there and the campus was empty, everyone else was home. So we hopped in the car and drove to Asheville to a bar, had a pretty good time that night. D: So was your education supported by the G.I. Bill? A: Yes. Yeah, I got 160 dollars a month, and that was enough to pay for school and tuition and groceries. And gas. Gas wasn't expensive back then. So uh, later on I found a house up above the school on the Tuskegee River, three bedroom house for 90 dollars a month, and I had it to myself. It later became a party house. I enjoyed it, being on the river, right where the Caney Fork came into the Tuskegee. We could walk across the highway and it was about 9 miles to the campus, and during the summer we would actually get in tubes and tube to school. I was also running cross country at Western Carolina, and sometimes I ran to school. D: Alright, did you have any long lasting relationships from service? A: Well, thank goodness for computers and email, I stay in touch with several of my shipmates; we found each other on the ship's website, which is kinda nice. D: That's good. A: I have several old friends... we email each other, once or twice a week. All across the country, from California to Florida, Nebraska, and New York. So, every once in awhile I'll get an email from an old �shipmate, who has found my email address. So yeah, I keep in touch with several guys I was in the Navy with. D: And you joined a veteran's organization a few years back, correct? A: I joined the American Legion several years ago here in Lewisville; we were the fastest growing American Legion in the state at that time. D: What year was that? A: Uhhh... joined back in 2006, I believe. D: Just a few more questions. Does your experience influence your thinking about war or the military in general? A: You have to live it to realize what’s going on out there. I don’t think many Americans realize that we have a fleet in every ocean now, we have a fleet that's, of course, off the Arabian Peninsula. Back when I was in the Navy, that wasn't, there was no fleet. We had the 6th fleet, which I was in, in the med. The 7th fleet, let's see if I can count 'em right. The 5th fleet in the Atlantic. At any given moment you probably have 5 to 600 ships at sea, I don't think the American people even realize what's going on with the military, and why should they? They see it on the news and I'm just talking about the Navy, not about the Army or Air Force or Marine Corps. and the Coast Guard. D; Yeah I guess the Navy doesn't get as much screen time as the front line Marines do. A: Well, we don't have civilians. At the time I was in, we didn't have women on board. Now you see Navy fliers who are women, radiomen who are women, on board ships. We didn't have females on board back in the 70's. Course there were no civilians. Once in awhile we would have a show day if we went into a port. Maybe the king of a country or a mayor of a city would come out and visit, tour by the captain. Just to let him come on board and look around on the air craft carrier. No civilians were not allowed on board unless invited. Whereas if you're in the Army you are on land, Air Force, you're on land, you probably work 9-5 and go home to your wife every night. That's not possible if you're on a cruise 6-10 months out of every year. It was pretty tough on married people, they didn't see their families for a long time, and our longest cruise was 10 months, 301 days. Usually a cruise was 6 months; we had a lot of stuff going on in the Mediterranean that year. We were in Athens, Greece when King Papadopoulos was being overthrown; we were off the coast of Morocco when that government was being toppled. In fact, there was a couple of us in downtown Athens, and students were rioting at the University of Athens, and tanks were rolling by us to go stop the revolution. A car came by us at about 60 mph, threw a smoke bomb at us, we then found out from shore patrol that we were ordered back to the ship, and we didn't mind going back to the ship that day. We could hear the gunshots at the university, they were mowing down students. First cruise I had to make, you had to wear your uniform, that changed after Admiral Zumwaldt became CO, he let us wear civilian clothes when we left the ship overseas, which was nice. D: Blend in a little better. �A: Blend in a little better, they could still pick out American sailors, most guys had long hair in Europe at that time. And here we were in our Levi's and Wrangler's, short hair. We looked very military, and you can't hide that. D: How did your service experiences affect your life? A: Oh wow. Well I grew up. My father told me, 'If nothing else, they made a man out of you'. You see things different, you see the world differently, it just changes you. Sometimes not in a good way, I know several men who were in combat in Vietnam, and they still can't talk about what they saw, of course they probably saw some of their friends slaughtered, or they were slaughtering the enemy. It makes you grateful for what you have. D: I should have asked this in the beginning, to go back to your father, was his military, he was in the military, did his involvement have anything to do with your decision to go in? A: Probably. My dad joined, like most men did back in WWII, he lied about his age, he joined the Merchant Marines when he was 17. D: Right. A: And uh, in fact, he was on a livery ship going back and forth from New York or Philadelphia and when he was discharged he was in Athens, no Naples, Italy. He immediately joined the U.S. Army, and stayed in the Army for two years, and he was discharged from the Army, and he was back in Lincolnton working for my grandfather, he joined the Air Force Reserve. So he was in three branches of the service, in like, 8 years. So between me and him we were in every branch of the service except the Marine Corps. The Merchant Marines were part of the Coast Guard back then. D: Right. So do you still attend any reunions? A: Several years ago the ship had a reunion in Jacksonville Florida, where we were stationed, in Mayport, which is just north of Jacksonville. And there were like, uh, it was open to anyone who had ever served on the Roosevelt. We had one man who had served on the first cruise, and they had gone to Rio de Jainero, Brazil on that first cruise. There were over 400 of us, and that's the only reunion I have been to. D: Okay. Well, is there anything else you would like to add, closing remarks? A: No, I am glad I did it. I don't know if I'd do it again. I just got an email from one of my Navy friends the other day, 'why don't they draft 60 year olds instead of 19 year olds?' And it made a lot of sense. We don't sleep anyway, so it won't bother us getting up at 6. We're grumpy, so give us a gun, we'll mow down any enemy the country has! D: That's good. A: Quit sending the kids over, we know what to do anyway. I remember in '91 when the first Iraqi War started, a good friend of mine who was in Vietnam in the Air Force, we looked at each other, and he said �'Boy I'd love to go help. I could drive a truck, do something, love to be over there helping' but of course you can't join the military after you're 45 years old. D: Right. Anything else? A: It was a good experience, it did change my life. I don't know how I did it. It was very scary at times. It was very hard, shipboard life was not very easy. If either one of my sons was gonna join the military I would tell them to finish college and become an officer, that's the best way to do it. Don't be an enlisted man. It's pretty tough. So, anytime I meet a fellow veteran, it's great. Cause we have a special bond. D: So okay, well I thank you very much for your time and your service, A: Thank you D: Thank you for interviewing me, or interviewing you... alright. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cbe095589e70bd7817ffb2341b9bd264.mp3 9520760d90a555484409061865186709 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Huss, Clifton Allen Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Huss, Derek Interview Date 9/23/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:48:14 File name 2013_063_Huss_CliftonAllen_interview 2013_063_Huss_CliftonAllen_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Allen Huss, 23 September 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Huss, Derek Huss, Clifton Allen Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 11 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource United States Veterans Huss, Allen Interviews Navy Radio men Description An account of the resource Allen Huss enlisted in the US Navy in the 1970s and worked as a radioman. He traveled many places by sea, mostly along the Mediterranean Sea, and explains his experience of the Yom Kippur War. 1970 Allen Huss American Legion Hanoi Mediterranean Sea Navy radioman Vietnam Yom Kippur War https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/9fa6eb5176ba64da1380ca059db66d7b.pdf 3fc180388b1b6b77e308ece7b62ad854 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Colonel David Hubner talks about his career in the military spanning multiple decades. He began in Germany, was deployed in Iraq a couple of times and moved around the United States to several training camps. He retired after his sons graduated high school and his body began to show signs of wear and tear. He explains that active involvement in one's community is necessary and that serving the military allowed him to gain a solid perspective. PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Retired Col. David Scott Hubner Sr. 10/15/12. Sunbury, GA Scott Hubner – It is October 14th 2012, and I am recording retired Col David S Hubner for an interview for the Appalachian State US Military History class. Alright, Col Sir, Where and when were you born? COL Hubner – I was born in January 1961 in Montclair, New Jersey. Scott Hubner – Alright, did you move around a lot younger? COL Hubner – Well, my father was an IBM field engineer so when I was twelve years old we moved to North Carolina. We lived in Cary, North Carolina, my dad was working in the research triangle as a field engineer, and so we bought a house there and I went to middle school and high school in Cary, North Carolina near Raleigh. Scott Hubner – So then you went on to college and joined the Army after college? COL Hubner – I had a high SAT score and got a letter from West Point and the Citadel. And I had a friend who had a sister who went to Appalachian and when I found out that Appalachian had coed and the same ROTC commissioning program that they had at the citadel I decided to go to Appalachian. I had never visited there, so I went up there after I graduated in May 1979, August 1979 Scott Hubner – Alright, so studying, doing ROTC at Appalachian what branch did you want to move into? COL Hubner - Well when I started ROTC I wasn’t sure if I was going to join the army. I had an uncle who was in the navy and he had traveled around the world and that interested me. I had always wanted to see Europe and Germany as my great grandfather had been a German and my other grandpa had been a Scot. So I studied at Appalachian I didn’t contract until my junior year because I wasn’t sure that’s what I wanted to do, but after being around the program for a while and having a roommate who was in ROTC I thought what you know ill go in for a tour and see what its like, Get stationed in Germany. And I was intrigued by from my military history studies the cavalry and armor in particular, and what they had done in modern warfare so I decided that you know I was going to do something I wanted to be full bore I didn’t want to be an admin guy in the army so I decided that after doing commandos and doing a lot of foot patrols that being a tanker would be a lot more fun and you know tanks lead the war. Scott Hubner – Alright, so when did you commission and I assume you commissioned Armor? COL Hubner – I did, I got my first choice because I did well at advanced camp and despite a mediocre academic career at Appalachian. I had a good strong camp and was able to get my first choice which meant I was able to get armor and active duty. So I actually graduated in 1984 and spent an extra year. I �changed majors midway thru from business to English and when I figured out I was going to go in the army and they told me it really didn’t matter what my degree was, I know that’s changed some. But I went to Fort Knox for officer basic in June of 1984 after graduating from Appalachian. Scott Hubner – What do you recall from your first days in service? COL Hubner – You know it was kind of scary because you know here I am driving up to fort Knox Kentucky and I’m a brand new lieutenant. You know I’m in my class A’s I have to go sign in, weigh in and go through all of the admin stuff. You know it was a nerve racking thing at first and then you start meeting other guys from others schools, who were there for the same basic course and they put you in tank crews when you’re in armor so I had three guys I was pretty close too and we did a lot of things together from different schools. One was from UT (Tennessee), one was from Gettysburg College and the third was from Arizona so we were a good mixed bunch and you know it was a bonding thing. And I took it very seriously because I knew that I was out of college and this was now a profession. I wanted to be good at it; I didn’t feel like I knew a whole lot about armor when I got there. Scott Hubner – Alright, so shortly after you commissioning, where did you find yourself? What was your first assignment? COL Hubner – Well my first assignment was to Fort Knox KY and I was not happy, so I called armor branch and they wound up getting me a trade with a guy who wanted to stay close to home. I really wanted to go to Germany and see Europe because I wasn’t sure how long this army thing was going to last and I figured that you know that I should have an opportunity to do that. And that was where at that time because the cold war the Army considered the best units were over there. So I wanted to go to an armor/cavalry unit or a tank battalion that was on the border or in Germany and I got my wishes. I was sent in November to Bovergan, Germany. Which was then considered to be the first infantry division forward, it was a brigade plus of mechanized and I was assigned to second battalion 37th armor. Creighton Abrams was the 37th tank so he was our kind of our honorary guy and I was a young lieutenant platoon leader in Charlie Company, second battalion 37th armor. On M60 A3 tanks, that’s how old I am. Scott Hubner – So when was the first time you saw the war like experience, in the Gulf War? COL Hubner – Well, after Germany I went to the armor officer advanced course and I got married towards the end of my time in Germany a lady I met at Appalachian in German class actually and she came up a couple times in the summer to teach for Appalachian in the summer program. So we dated and decided to get married so we came back and I wanted to be closer to her parents in South Carolina and my parents in North Carolina. So I asked for Fort Stewart and at first they didn’t have it, but eventually someone resigned or something happened because I was eventually able to get my assignment to Fort Stewart. I was assigned initially to second brigade 24th infantry on the staff as a planner and eventually after an NTC rotation was moved down to take Delta Company 1-64 Armor. Before I went down to delta company they were shooting a gunnery and the guy that was leaving delta company did not want to shoot, he was working on going to recruiting command, not going to be in armor anymore so he wasn’t excited about getting on the tank and the battalion commander offered me the opportunity to go through gunnery. Of course I had to do the gunnery skills test and go through �at night after my day job as brigade staff, go through training on the machine guns and everything and then go through crew drills. That was a fortuitist experience for me because that was the crew that I would go to war with. So we bonded very early and if we hadn’t had that experience, we would’ve jumped on that tank without having gone through any training and it’s a fairly complex beast and if you don’t know what you’re doing you can get hurt or you can hurt somebody else. So I trained with that crew, we shot a gunnery, we qualified and then a couple months later we were on an airplane headed to Saudi Arabia to be the line in the sand. Scott Hubner – Did you see combat in this tour? COL Hubner – Yes, I had the ability to use a LORAN and I was pretty good with a map I had been a scout platoon leader in Germany and the battalion commander had known me from Germany he was our S3 for a year. He knew me when I was a scout so he wanted my company to lead the brigade into Iraq. We actually crossed the berm my company, the night before the attack and secured crossing points in Iraq. Then the next morning the battalion task force came through and we started the advance into Iraq. It was three days of road marching, a couple of good skirmishes, and then we did a deliberate attack on the Republican Guards Secured Airfield in Jalibah, Iraq. The in southern Iraq we got in a fight there with the Republican Guards. A couple kids got hurt, some killed. Not in my company but because my company was in the lead we saw a good bit of action, a couple of bronze stars for valor. We had a kid on a plow tank, his tank got caught in wire and jumped off of the tank under fire and pulled the wire out of the plow while he was being shot at. So it was a pretty wild experience and then we chased the Republican guard towards Basrah until they finally had a peace settlement. Basically, four or five days of nothing but attack, penetration, pursuit, and then cease fire. Scott Hubner – Was that the last time you got into real contact in your Army career or was there another time? COL Hubner – I then went on to be an S3(Staff Operations Officer) at Fort Riley, Kansas. After spending a little time as a PAO(Political Affairs Officer) and going to the Majors course. After that I was assigned to an ROTC duty at East Tennessee State University as a PMS, I thought that was pretty much it, I was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel. Then I got a call from a guy who had known me, a two start general, General Craddock who had selected me to command a tank battalion in the First Infantry Division in Europe. I went over to Europe and commanded that battalion deployed it to Kosovo which was kind of a low intensity conflict at that time and then we got the call to go to Iraq for OIF II(Operation Iraqi Freedom II). In OIF II we were in Sala Adin which was a very hotly contested area of the Sunni insurgency. My task force was centered in the city of Balaad and fought in Samarra in operation Baton Rouge. Also fought during the first election and before that the unit was awarded the Valorous Unit Citation, to this day the proudest award because that was a unit award and not many units get to be chosen to be valorous units. So I was the commander of 1-77 armor for three years in Schweinfurt, Germany. But only in Schweinfurt for about 10 months we were deployed twice, once to the Balkans, and once to OIF II. We had 90 plus purple hearts. Six of my soldiers were killed. I got blown up a couple times by IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) and also had a mortar round land on top of the room I was in. But we made it through pretty much unscathed I was blessed. �Scott Hubner – After OIF II where did your military career go? COL Hubner – Well after battalion command I was selected for the war college. After I was at the war college I was called by our branch and they said basically you are a top choice for brigade command, but we’ve only got two armor brigades open and then a training brigade and we think you should wait a year and try to compete for one of the maneuver brigades. Because I had been in battalion command for three years and I had been through what I had been through I didn’t mind taking the training brigade I thought It would be a good command. So I told them I was going to go ahead and compete and I was selected after the war college to go ahead and command the 1-94th armor brigade which is the Armor branches training brigade. I trained the 19-Delta Scouts and 19- Kilo Tankers, tank and Bradley mechanics and they also had some basic training units, at that time they did. So it was a seven battalion brigade and the most interesting thing about that was, I took command and we were in a surge in Iraq. So we had a heavy training load and our attrition went very high and there was some concern that we were letting to many people go in the Army. But I think because we held that standard our branch is better off now with enlisted soldiers than they might’ve been than some of the other branches because they let some people in that should not have been in during that period. And that why there is a lot of the discipline problems that are in the army today. So after that brigade command I had two children that were both in high school, I wanted to try to see them through in one school. So I met the commander of the ROTC General Bartell. He interviewed me and wanted me to come be his 1st brigade commander which was the military colleges of the country so I did that for a year. Then he asked me to be the 1st chief of staff at Fort Knox, which I did and enjoyed as we tried to bring ROTC headquarters to Fort Knox, which we did. At that point I was nearing the end of the road, physically I had some issues with my back and my sons were out of high school so there wasn’t a whole lot more I really wanted to do in the army at that point. But I did deploy one more time; I got the opportunity to go work for General Bartell in Iraq, in a brigadier generals position. I was the chief of current operations for all US forces Iraq. It was a great experience and it was kind of a neat thing for me because I had been in the original desert shield/desert storm when we first got into a conflict with Iraq, I then had fought in OIF II as a task force commander and had been there for the first election, and then as a United States forces Iraq senior staff officer I got to help plan with the withdrawal and the end of the conflict in Iraq for US forces. So that to me was perfect, I got to do that for six months and I submitted my retirement paperwork before I left so that I could come back and get all of the VA and medical things done, my sons were now out of high school and so I retired with full honors after 28 years of service. I went to work with some guys, actually my boss was a guy I knew in desert storm so it all comes around I guess. Scott Hubner – So you retired as a full bird Colonel, what do you remember about taking that step, that last day in the Army, retirement? COL Hubner – I really, because I didn’t want to dwell on the past I really just stayed focused on the current and the future. I kind of learned from the army to live your life that way, not to get stuck on the past too much, maybe when I’m older, later and when I stop working. I was hustling trying to get moved out, get all of my VA stuff done. So it was a sense of relief that it was all done, I felt like I had a good run. I also felt like I had done everything I had wanted to do in the army. It was time to go and hand it over to younger folks that were hard charging and ready to lead. Also as I senior leader you see sometimes the �army goes through ups and downs and I felt that I did not want to go through another downturn where we reduce forces, and cut civilian jobs. Because as a senior leader, the generals expect the colonels to carry the mail, the bad news and though the colonels don’t always agree with the decisions of course they salute and move out and do that. I was tired of doing that as a chief of staff, that’s why I also took that duty in Iraq, we also got a general in Cadet Command General Mark McDonald but he wanted his own chief an artillery guy so it was time for me to move on and it really gave me the opportunity to reflect so now I look at it and say “now what can I do to make my mark as a private citizen” so that’s what I’m trying to do now. Scott Hubner – Is there anything you would like to add that we haven’t covered in this interview thus far? COL Hubner – I think that everyone should serve their country in some form or fashion whether it is their community or nation. I really think that should be a prerequisite to citizenship or at least to being able to vote. If you have never been a nurse or teacher, firemen, policemen, or a volunteer at something you should do that. I was blessed to have the physical and mental capability to be an officer in the Army and I loved it, I don’t regret a minute of it. I think it’s a great start for young people and it gives you a good perspective. I think it’s very important to help you with your perspective of the world. I raised my children to be citizens of the world not just citizens of just North Carolina or South Carolina or whatever. I want them to understand that we are blessed here and only by the hard work and bravery of the ones before us. So I want them to have that mental outlook. Scott Hubner – Thank you for your service, Retired COL David S Hubner. Thank you for your interview, I appreciate your time. COL Hubner – Thank you. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f173b496627fce1dda86d7b153acc751.mp3 f70a6fcfbf5e7a172d31af3aeefed5d3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hubner, David S. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hubner, Scott Interview Date 10/15/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:19:13 File name 2013_063_Hubner_DavidScott 2013_063_Hubner_DavidScott_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Scott Hubner, 15 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hubner, Scott Hubner, David S. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Hubner, David S. Veterans United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Colonel David Hubner describes his service in the military which spanned multiple decades. He began in Germany, was deployed a couple of times to Iraq, and moved around the United States to various training camps. He retired after his sons graduated from high school and his body began to show physical signs of wear and tear. He explains that serving one's community is necessary and being a part of the military allowed him to gain a solid perspective. ASU colonel Fort Knox Germany Gulf War Jalibah Iraq ROTC senior leader https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f5c9e384e497735c6b7e6823c97b0ee0.pdf cccaafb0594269350e40efa7b0879936 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with CPL. Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr. October 8, 2012. Boone, NC Brandon Reynolds: It is Monday, October 8, 2012. I am interviewing Corporal Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr. of Charlotte, North Carolina at his home here in Boone, North Carolina for American Military History Course at Appalachian State University. The oral history will begin now. Reynolds: Now, Corporal Hoover, can you tell me about where you’re from?…When you were born? Hoover: I was born in Charlotte, North Carolina on June the 18, 1929. Reynolds: All right and can you go over your military service? Were you originally drafted or were you enlisted into the Army? Hoover: …I was drafted on…April the 26, 1951. Reynolds: How did you feel about being drafted? What was the process that you went through? Hoover: Well, I didn’t have any option. I…I had to go and…a lot of my friends had already been drafted to…prior to me being drafted and…so, …I…I knew my time was up and…I…reported to…to the draft board on the morning I was…by the time I was supposed to. Reynolds: Now, where was your first duty station? Can you go over your first unit of assignment and where you attended basic training at? Hoover: Well after I reported in to the draft board they…marched us…down the street to…to the recruiting center…at the…corner of…Church Street and…North Church Street and…West…West Seventh Street. …Spent most of the day…going through different…parts of the…the process and procedures and then about…I think around 3:30 or 4:00 that afternoon they loaded us on buses and took us to…Fort Jackson, South Carolina where we were to…do further processing. …The…we got there…on…it was a Thursday night…and…the next day they…processed us in different…different…things that needed to be done and…two or three days later they began to…get us in formation and we’d call out names and those men would fall out and…they would…tell them they were going   1   �to different…stations through…throughout the United States for their basic training. It was on a Friday a week after…I…I was drafted, on Friday they told…those of us that remained there at Fort Jackson that…we would leave on Saturday morning to go to Fort Hood, Texas for our…basic training. So, on…Saturday morning…they…we fell out with our duffel bags and I think we had duffel bag inspections for probably two or three times…while we were waiting for…for the train, troop train to get there to that we got on and…later that day we went through Atlanta, Georgia and…on Sunday morning we were…I woke up…in…in the…car that I was in and pulled the shade up and looked out and saw that I was in Meridian, Mississippi and…I said, Muuur goodness where am I going? (Reynolds laughs). But, …that…we continued to travel…all day Sunday and then…Monday morning…we found we were in Dallas, Texas and…later Waco and on down to…Killeen, Texas where Fort Hood was located…and they…took us…by bus over to…a theatre where the Commanding General came in and…talked to us and after he finished his talk, they began to…go down the…the rows and…stop at…a different row and say, “Everybody from…front to this row… file out,” and… they’d go outside and put them on a bus and take them to wherever they…they were headed. …So, when they got to…my row, I was on the first row of our group and they took us and…I wound up in the barracks and found out it was in the 91st Armored Field Artillery Battalion. And…so I took basic training with the…91st and…until…the…at lunch…lunch one day they…took…called out names and told us to fall out that the…Battery Commander the Captain wanted to talk to each one of us individually about going to…Officers Candidate School…and…I had passed the Officers…OCS Test that…at Fort Jackson and…so, when my time came…I reported in…went in to the…Captain and reported in to him and he began to talk to me about going to Officers Candidate School and…wanted to know if I was interested in it and I told him, No, I don’t believe I was, that I didn’t…want to go to Officers Candidate School, that I had been drafted for twenty-one months and I’d been in four weeks and they’d transfer…they extended our…term to twenty-four months, that I’d already lost my…some more time and that going to Officers Candidate School I’d be in another…another…year. I believe it was a year and a half or two years, and I wanted to get out to…as…as soon as I could. And…he looked at me and smiled said…, “Well…when you came into the Army there…in…in civilian life there wasn’t any demand for cannoneers and anyone was experienced as a cannoneer and I assure you when you get out and go back to civilian life there wont be any…demand for cannoneers,”…and asked me what I did in…civilian life and I told him I was a…bank teller and…that I’d like to…get in finance if I could and that…that might help me in my…my future if I…I…I had that…experience of being in the…Army Finance…Department. So, he had the First Sergeant call   2   �the…finance Officer and…the Captain talked to…the… finance Officer told him that he had a young man that was interested in getting into the finance office if…he had an opening. The finance Officer said he did have an opening and he’d like for him to send me up for an interview that afternoon. So, the Captain told me to… go change my uniform and… told me how to get to the finance office. I went up for the interview. …Had a good interview with the…finance Officer and he…wanted to know when I could come and I told him, “Well, as soon as I finish my basic training I…I hope,” and…he said, …“Well, we’ll get in touch…you need to go by the replacement center and we’ll call down and have you put on orders to…be transferred from the 91st to…when you finish basic training to the…Headquarters and Headquarters Company, so that you can…come to work in the finance office.” So, …that’s how I got in to…to…to…in the finance office and…they made…a cashier out of me, where I was paying…the…Army’s funds to the soldiers that were…going overseas, or travel pay, …or…or been redlined on payday and came in to…get… paid when they came back from furlough, or whatever reason they missed…being paid on payday. So, …then…the…the Captain in the finance office and myself, we…on…when payday came around we’d get the…pay orders from the different…sections for the…all the different units in the 1st Armored Division and we had to make up the payrolls to give to the pay Officer that…would come in on payday and…pick up…their…their bag of…money to distribute to the soldiers that were under their command. And…then they would bring it back…later that day and we’d…I’d have to…verify what they were bringing back and what they’d paid out. And…during the…time that I was cashier in…in the finance office…I...handle…millions of dollars of…of money and paid out quite a bit and I was only short one time. I was short eighteen cents. I’d given somebody two dimes for…for two pennies. I made a transposition and…so, …that was the only time that…I was short…in…in my funds. Reynolds: That’s pretty incredible in itself handling millions of dollars and only coming up eighteen cents short. Can you go over…your military history, maybe with your family? Hoover: Well, after…I...I got to Fort Hood and was assigned in…in to the finance office, …I spent…my time there and…the rumor was that…1st Armored Division was going to Germany to replace the 3rd Armored Division at some time in…around February, March, or April of 1952. …Found that out…my fiancé and I…I decided that…I’d come home on furlough in February and…be married and…I’d gone overseas…probably. But, …we were married on February the 9, 1952 and…went back to Fort Hood and found that…well, after I got back that the word was that we were not going to Germany, that we were going to make a   3   �replacement center out of…the 1st Armored Division. So, …I…we stayed at Fort Hood…the…rest…of…the time except for three months when I was sent to…Fort Benjamin Harrison in…Indianapolis, Indiana to Army Finance School there. I was there…a…a…a little over three months and then…transferred back to…went back to Fort Hood. But my wife Joan met me…in Indianapolis and we took a train back to Dallas, Texas where she stayed with her Aunt and Uncle until I could get an apartment…in Killen, Texas, which was…just outside of the Fort Hood and…reservation. And…we lived in Killeen…moved into another apartment…several months later. But, we stayed there until I was discharged on…on April the 25, 1953. Reynolds: How did you feel about finally being discharged from the Army? Hoover: Well, I…I felt…some relief that I was going back to…to…to Charlotte and…my…back to the bank that…that I’d worked at and…now having a wife and looked forward to going back where my family lived and…that it was…it was a good thing…I…I…I can’t say I enjoyed all parts of…of…of my military service, but…it was…it taught me a lot about life and a lot about how to live and how to do things. And…I think it made me…a better person. Reynolds: Will you go over some…some of your memories while you were at Fort Hood? Whether they were funny memories or kind of scary memories. Maybe being out in the field experiences with that. Hoover: Well, …we got to…Fort Hood around May the 7th I believe it was and…it…turned out that after we started our basic training it turned out to be a rainy…rainy part of the season. The…heat was usually…over a hundred…a hundred degrees and with the rain and…crawling around on the ground and…out in the field. …Different things that just…it…it was tough, but…to me it…basic training was to see…how much the…human body and mind could…could…could…could withstand. And…I remember going to…through the infiltration course…at…at night. And it rained…torrential rain about an hour before we…we got there. So, the...the course was…was muddy and full…full of water. But crawling under that barbed wire with…weapon in…in your…arms and hands and shooting tracers above your head and setting off charges that threw water and mud up (laughs)…up in the air all over you (laughs) (Reynolds laughs)…it was…that was a…that was a real experience. …Going through the…gas chamber…and take…taking off the gas mask and…having to get everybody in line. Some of them were crying and yelling and…stumbling around, but…several of us got them…had to get some of them, grab them and put them in   4   �line before the Sergeant would let us leave to get out into the fresh air. Well, we didn’t do it exactly right, so they made us do it again (Reynolds laughs). So, …that…that wasn’t very pleasant either. Reynolds: Not at all. Hoover: But it was…it was…it was a good experience. Reynolds: Are there any moments in particular that stick out in your mind while you were at Fort Hood? Any…maybe any awards or activities you did on base? Hoover: Well, being the cashier in the finance office there was one thing that…I believe it was the…United Way Drive…at…at Fort Hood. …I would receive the money that was coming…coming in from…from different areas to go to the United Way. And…I would have to count the money…make a…make a…make a record of it and so forth and turn in a report. And after it was over, …I received a letter of commendation from…General Bruce Clarke, who was the Commanding General of the 1st Armored Division, …commending me for the work that I had done…in helping the…the United Way Drive. Then one that was…sort of comical was…I played baseball…two years…both years I was there. And…we had the…post championship baseball team both years. And…the first year…it was the World Series…at Fort Hood and…we…when we won the…the game championship game, General Clarke was there to…give the…the players of the winning team…a sweater that had the initials…FH on it for Fort Hood. Then we could wear it around the base…after duty. And…then he gave us a…a medal to recognizing that we were the…post champions. Well, the…one of my teammates Joe Wade…worked in the finance office as well, so we’re in the same barracks and the next morning when we fell out for…for…for inspection, we had put our…medals…on…on…onto our shirts. And when the inspecting Officer came down the…the line and got to…to me and he…looked at…looked at me and said, …“What in the world is that?” I said that’s my medal Sir (Reynolds laughs). He said, “Medal for what?” Medal for winning the…being the post…championship baseball team. I was on the team. “Well, who gave it to you?” I said, …General Clarke did Sir. “When?” I said last night. (laughs) He looked at me and he said, “Hmmm, that is a nice looking medal, but I don’t believe it’s appropriate on your shirt. I think it may be better to take it off and leave it in the barracks (Reynolds laughing). So, …that…that was a humorous thing that…that took place and…I didn’t get…any extra duty of detail for doing that either.   5   �Reynolds: Well that’s…that’s not too bad either. I know those details can be quite…quite painful sometimes and not everyone… Hoover: Yea. Reynolds: …wants to do them. Is there anything else that sticks out in your mind during your time at Fort Hood? I know you were drafted during the Korean War. Is that correct? Hoover: Well, it wasn’t a Korean War because…war…if I remember correctly, war was never declared. And it…I think as…it’s mostly referred to as the Korean Conflict. And…I remember that…that…word came back that some of the troops…that…that…that we had known through basic training at Fort Hood…had gone on to Korea and some of them lost their lives…in…in Korea. And…that hurts to…know that someone that was close to you to at one time had…had lost their life. And…I did have a cousin from down in Florida that…was…in…in Korea…and…his…mother…he was in a…a news reel in a movie theatre. Mother saw…saw his picture and…saw her son. Reynolds: Oh wow. Hoover: …And it was at during a real cold part of winter and…he suffered some frost…frostbite…bite and other things from…from that. Now my father, he was in the…First World War. But, …he was a drafted…late…late in the war and was sent to…France and to Germany…in the Occupational Forces and he was over there about eight months I believe it was before…he was sent back to the states and was discharged and went back to his home. Reynolds: Well, upon that note…is there anything you would like to mention right now that I haven’t asked so far in the interview that you would like to state? Hoover: No…I think that…if more young men would…serve…have to go through basic training and serve some time in the service, whatever…area of service they…they would be in, then it might make…make…make…our…our people better to…to find out what…devotion to…to duty and…to be able to take orders and to…have responsibility and be…be held accountable for…for what they…what they do. That…we…our…our nation would be better off.   6   �Reynolds: Well CPL Hoover, I want to thank you for your time with this interview and once again I’m Brandon Reynolds conducting an interview with CPL Lloyd L. Hoover, Jr. …United States Army. I want to thank you for your time. Hoover: Your welcome. Reynolds: Thank you. Bye.   7   � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4b955a967c6e303b8ca76712d592b26a.mp3 a1cbd4df2543951463b94f5b330a4323 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hoover, Lloyd L. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Reynolds, Brandon Interview Date 10/8/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:21:59 File name 2013_063_Hoover_Lloyd 2013_063_Hoover, Lloyd_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lloyd Hoover, 8 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reynolds, Brandon Hoover, Lloyd L. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 7 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Hoover, Lloyd L. Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Corporal Lloyd Hoover was drafted in the early 1950s and served in the Army Finance Department managing millions of dollars. He served during the Korean War, what he calls the Korean Conflict, and saw his military years as a good and formative experience. Army Finance Department Artillery Battalion Corporal Lloyd Hoover Fort Hood Korean Conflict https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/72738ed39724bfa07650a6f9b4e5ce5c.pdf 94d71c3c7ef3553b285167cb222e62a6 PDF Text Text Transcript of oral history interview with Spc. Nathan Hester by Mark Vanburen March 13, 2011 Boone,NC Mark Vanburen: Hi this is mark vanburen and we are going to doing an interview today with Specialist Nathan Hester. It is March the 13th at 6:46 pm we are located at my house in Boone .. . So Nathan tell us a little bit about why joined the military? Nathan : I joined the military because I felt that it was my duty as an American to help my country and there pursuit... in the war on terror Mark: ok, well what exactly do you do in the military? What is your military occupation specialty? Nathan : My military occupation specialty is a 19 delta, cavalry scout. We specialize in reconnaissance of the enemy as far as collecting intell on where high value target are were they operate the trafficking of weapons and also explosive materials Mark: ok, are you National Guard, Active duty or Reserves Nathan : I'm part of the north Carolina national guard I'm in the 30th heavy brigade combat team, part of the 1-1 oth combined arms battalion headquarter and headquarters company .. Scout platoon Mark: roger that... what... excuse me .. have you ever been deployed to a combat zone? Nathan : yes I have ... I was deployed to FOB ST. Michaels in Maumudiyah Iraq about fifteen miles southwest of Baghdad from 2009-2010 Mark: and what exactly was mission when you were overseas? Nathan : our mission specialized in counter lED missions and observation posts on where high value targets were and a lot of.. activity were lED's were placed that were .. that we got from intel gathered by our company Mark: now what is an lED? Nathan : an lED is an improvised explosive device usually made .. put together from .. anything from a small home made explosive .. consisting of C4 or other chemicals ... mixed with things around the house as far as marbles and nails, rocks up to ... artillery rounds wired together in order to detonate and explode and inflict causalities on whom ever the terrorist decide to . Mark: now did .. when you were over in Iraq did you ever see an lED come across one did did any of them ever explode while you around it Nathan : I personally never came in contact with an lED I was actually in my home in Shelby, Norh Carolina on R&R from my deployment for two weeks when my platoon was hit by an lED �Mark: and in any of the missions you did looking for IEDS you never ... yall your platoon never found them you, never answered any calls to have them exploded or anything like that? Nathan :... yeah we did ... we ... we worked with a lot with the air force EOO attachment to our FOB and we ... were called out multiple times in order to investigate possible lED and .. sightings of lEOs Mark: ... could you explain for everybody exactly what EOO stands for? Nathan : EOO stands for Explosive ordnance disposal and its ... part of the military that specializes in.. explosives and the disposal of them . As far as using they have a lot of ... technology that they use a lot .. of infrar.~ d ... technology ,robotics and stuff in order to gather .. intell on possible lEOS and IEDS like when there called out they'll usually send the robot forward and check out the lED and .. place .. C4 near the lED in order to detonate it and so nobody has to physically get close the lED . Mark: ok .. so ... how was everyday living like overseas? Would you say it was good or bad? Nathan : it was actually ... not that bad . I didn't think it was as bad as it was going to be . We actually ... we were in tents that were covered with ... insulated type of foam and that allowed our tents to have electricity wired to them to give them ... air condition ing and stuff like that .. we had bathroom trailers and shower tra ile rs. Our chow hall wasn't that good, the food wasn't that great but we were on a smaller FOB and most of the cooks we had in our chow hall didn't really ... weren't really the best at there jo b but you know we got a lot of care packages from our families and friends and the USO and other organizations that like to help out solders during deployment so we were able to have our own food and stuff like that. We ... as far as we had electricity you know so we were able to you know ... buy a couple of TVs from ... off the internet or from the PX on base and hook them up in our tent so we can watch movies and play games and stuff like that there in our downtime when we weren't outside the wire running missions. Mark: So what would you say would be one of you' re the best experience you had in your ... tour of combat? Nathan: I' d say the best experience I had was ... doing some OPs, observation posts, along the ... Route Jackson which is one of the main alternate supply routes in through Mahmudiyah and Iraq and we actually leading up the OPs we had to dismount our humvees and walk into our position and I was ... assigned the position of point man for those missions so it was pretty much my job to navigate the squad through the terrain in order to get to our observation post so we could hunker down and begin to ... gather intel on the enemy. Mark: So what about that experiences with observation ... posts was so rewarding? Anything in particular? Nathan : Well again the ... experience as far as ... and a little bit of leadership not as far as leading the entire movement from the officer's standpoint of the squad. But as far as being the pointman and having to call out ... you know having the responsib ility of calling out anything you see and taking it upon yourself to ... keep the people behind you safe you pretty much have to be on your toes at all times and �make sure that you accomplish your mission ... as far as being in the OPs and ... gathering intel on the enemy is that' s the job I signed up to do so I get a great sense of pride from it so ... being out there at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning for several hours at a time ... looking through infrared sights ... watching for movement and people trafficking anything in or trying to plant lEOs is ... very rewarding. Mark: Now if you don't mind explain to us what was one of the worst days you had in Iraq or worst experiences? Nathan : I have to say the worst experience was ... when my platoon got hit by an lED and I was actually not in Iraq. So I wasn't there to be able to be there for support for my platoon during that time. Luckily, nobody got hurt and ... that's a blessing to our platoon and the people other part of our platoon . That really hit me hard when I couldn't be there ... for my brothers when ... something like that happens. Mark: how did it feel when you returned back to the United States after ... what was it, ten month deployment? Nathan : yea, right about ... a little over ten months. Yea, it felt great. It was great, came back with ... great sense of pride in yourself and your ... your unit and your country and helping fight the War on Terrorism and going over there and working hard day in and day out to do the best you can . It felt great coming back and having all the ... gratitude from people and respect from people. Having people come up to you and say thank you ... thank you for your service and ... it felt really good . It gives you a lot of confidence and it really it's really a great self esteem boost when you come back. Mark: Now that you're back what are your current goals and ambitions with the military and how would you have described your experience in the military so far? Nathan : my current goals in the military are to finish school ... stay in the national guard and finish college and get my four year degree and then apply to officer candidate school for active duty and graduate from officer candidate school and get my commission as an officer and go onto be an officer in the military and have a long rewarding career. As far as ... my experience in the military so far ... it's been up and down there' s always down times and good times. As far as the training you get and ... sometimes the training you gets great and sometimes you don't understand why you're having to do what you do but it all has a purpose even if the purpose isn't seen right then and there at all. It's all positive and sometimes you don't feel like you have the best leadership and that might be the case sometimes but that's when you just have to ... band together with your ... your brothers and keep working ... and accomplish a mission. So I' d have to say that my experience so far in the military has been very rewarding and positive . Mark: is there anything else that you'd like to say about your military experiences ... before we end this interview? Nathan : No, I think I pretty much said alii needed to say. Mark: Ok well once again this is Mark VanBuren interviewing SPC Nathan Hester on March 13. Thank you. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/6f265216dbe2f6b677471131b022553c.mp3 7698ca83cef3f44d7380954eecce5d35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Hester, Nathan Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Vanburen, Mark Interview Date 3/13/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:35 File name 2013_063_Hester_Charles_interview 2013_063_Hester_Nathan_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nathan Hester, 13 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vanburen, Mark Hester, Nathan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 3 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Hester, Nathan Veterans Iraq War, 2003-2011 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Nathan Hester joined the military to serve his country and fight in the War on Terrorism. He was a cavalry scout serving in the National Guard and was deployed for ten months in Iraq. His primary job there was counter IED missions. Cavalry Scout IED Maumudiyah Iraq National Guard War on Terrorism https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f5c73dbeb653a11dfe71f857bd2ca0ed.pdf e97c546aa19368502908d42e68e3f8c9 PDF Text Text Transcription of Oral History Interview with Robert Helton. October 2, 2012 Boone, NC Brindley Polk: I’m Brindley Polk, interviewing Rob Helton at Belk Library on the Appalachian State campus in Boone, NC on October 2, 2012. So Rob, when is your birthday and where were you born and raised? Rob Helton: My birthday is 26 May 1983. I was born in Hickory, North Carolina and I was..grew up outside of Hickory in a little town called Hildabrad. Brindley Polk: Always in North Carolina…always lived in North Carolina? Rob Helton: Yes, other than when I was in the army I’ve always lived here. Brindley Polk: Alright. When and why did you choose to join the army? Rob Helton: I signed up in May of 2003. I had…I was here at App, it was my first semester when 9/11 happened and then of course the invasion of Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Initially I thought wow Afghanistan will be over really quick. I had always wanted to join the army ever since I was a little kid. It had always been a goal of mine. And so I thought I’d graduate college and become an officer and probably spend a career in the military. And then we invaded Iraq in 2003 and that really…I felt like this was going to last awhile and if I didn’t get into it that it would be over before I got there. Oddly enough, I was calling my friends to congratulate them in 2005 on graduating from Baghdad, so I miss called that one but…it was still a good decision so… Brindley Polk: So you say you wanted to be in the army ever since you were a kid. Is that because there was family history in military service…or? Rob Helton: No, in my dad’s time…he still tells the story of going to MEPS to register for the draft but other than that he never went. He had two brothers who were drafted for Vietnam. But, other than that there is no real family history. I had nine uncles and out of that one of them joined the army voluntarily and spent a career in it, but I didn’t really know him so…O but my brother, my older brother did spend six years in the Navy in the ‘90s. I was, he is ten years older than me I was the little brother that’s probably the family history that most drove me to joining the military. Brindley Polk: OK. So did you hear any interesting stories from your family members or was it really talked about too much? Rob Helton: It really wasn’t spoken of. Dad always told me that uh none of them were the same after they came back and I remember when I was a little boy…the movie o my goodness was it Platoon? One of those eighties era Vietnam movies came out and my uncle saw part of it on TV. And there was talk in the family for a little while because the pastor had to come out to talk to him and he had to get some counseling because it had, I guess just disturbed things that he had buried away. So, that was really the only thing that was talked about and my grandmother kept my uncles silver star in the drawer in her bedroom which I didn’t know what it was at the time �she showed it to me once. That was, I guess it was family history that was kept under the…kept below the radar I guess. Brindley Polk: Which service branch are you in and why did you join that one? Rob Helton: I joined the army. It was what I always intended to join. I wasn’t going to go in the air force. My brother always regretted joining the navy in a sense. He’s very proud of it but I think he wished he’d joined the army. And the marines was just a whole different, and it still is a whole different thing so…The army had the job that I wanted because I’ve been interested in o tanks in stuff since I was a kid. I mean, I saw one in a parade once and I never could get enough of them so I always wanted to do that. Brindley Polk: What can you tell me about your basic training experiences? Rob Helton: There’s probably a lot of stories but I went to Fort Knox. My actual date that I went in was 23 October of 2003. So, we in processed at Fort Knox. And that’s, I will never go to the state of Kentucky again because of that place. But, it was a good experience I guess. I got in with a pretty good group of guys. We of course had our platoon idiot. It was, I mean it was challenging in some ways but I guess the hardest part was the separation being cut off from the world. I had just come straight from college to do this so having no information except for what they gave me was the hardest part. Physically it wasn’t that bad, getting yelled at all the time really didn’t bother me that was like expected. It was part of the experience and everybody wanted it. I think my favorite memory that comes out of basic training was…it was a few weeks from graduation. I had been sent out to do what’s called staff duty. You go up to the headquarters of your training unit and you sit there and an actual sergeant, a real soldier sits up at the staff duty. You’re just there to mop the floors and do other stuff for two hours and so everything was done when I got there so the sergeant that was on staff duty he says just go over and sit down on this couch and the couch faced the front door. The front door is where everyone walks in. He says just make sure you call “At ease” if the sergeant major walks in or attention if the colonel walks in. No big deal. I sat down, and I was exhausted. You know, we’re just finishing up one of our exercises and I to this day don’t think I was actually asleep but my eyes may have been open but the brain was not…nobody was home, and in walks a sergeant major. He went on a tirade and by this point I had learned to block out pretty much everything except when to say yes sergeant major or no sergeant major. The thing is, two years later that same sergeant major had come to my regiment, the 3d Cav, to be the regimental sergeant major and he picked me out of my entire troop in just sort of a horse shoe around him, he was talking to us. He picked me out and says I remember you; you’re the one that slept on staff duty. And out of my mind, out of my mouth oath bided comes sergeant major I wasn’t asleep. He was picking on me I think but at the same time that’s not something you do but it was an interesting little exchange and to this day I’m amazed that two years later he can remember this one me, that one little private that was asleep with his eyes open sitting, you know sitting up. That was probably the best little memory out of basic training for me. Other than that getting to play with Bradley’s was awesome. It’s like a 35 ton, it’s like the ultimate four wheeler except it has tracks. You learn so much and it is just a great experience I guess. I was sick of it by the time it was over with. O and I learned my first double standard that is worth sharing. Brindley Polk: Which was? �Rob Helton: My first sergeant was this very intense man and he got very upset at somebody one morning because he heard a private complaining about having to carry so much weight in their ruck sack. And he comes out with this ruck sack that looks three times the size of ours and it’s just this big ball, it’s a backpack, but its all full of stuff. And we’re like wow. We’re ruck marching like, I think its twelve miles or so and he says I will never tell you to do anything I do not do myself and neither will your drill sergeants. And then most of the drill sergeants have these giant fluffed up ruck sacks. Well, on Fort Knox there are four hills and that is one thing that came down from my uncle who volunteered, he went to Fort Knox. And he asked me if misery, agony, heartbreak, and defeat were still used. They’re hills that are practically vertical and you have to walk up and down them. I mean I’m not kidding; you put your hand to actually hold yourself up on agony. Brindley Polk: O Wow. Rob Helton: It’s, it’s miserable. So we actually went through all…I don’t know how they got route to go through all four. You can’t even buses down them that’s how steep they are. Actually they’re gated against buses. But…we get to the range we’re going to and it starts to rain so the drill sergeant tell us ok grip your ruck sacks, which you just take four and make a little square, and then you take a poncho and wrap it around them so they don’t get soaked. They said make sure you get the first sergeants and ours together. Well, one of our guys goes over to pick up the first ruck sack after the drill sergeant walks away. He sticks his hands in the straps and he goes to haul on it and he falls over backwards. We were like what? What did you just do man? And we go and pick it up and its full of pillows. So he walked the twelve miles with us and I’m sure at some point in his career he’s carried that ruck sack full of you know, weight or rocks or whatever but to stand in front of a group of privates who have been in the army only a few months and tell them I will never tell you to do something I don’t do myself and then find out that you’re faking. Brindley Polk: Yeah that’s something (laughing). Rob Helton: Yeah, so I probably better cut the basic training off there though, we’ve got a lot more to cover. Brindley Polk: Alright sure. Where were you deployed during your service? Rob Helton: I was deployed to Iraq twice. From March of 2005 to February of 2006 I was in Baghdad and then from December of 2007 to March of 2009 I was deployed FOB Kalsu. Which is about forty clicks south of Baghdad. Brindley Polk: Ok, and how long…well you just answered that question sorry. What was it like…how did you like your experience over there? Rob Helton: I loved it. I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. It…there are a lot of guys who came back with a negative perception of Iraq. I can’t wait to go back some day as a tourist. I think in about 10 or 20 years it should be calm enough for us to do that. But, you know it’s an amazing place and amazing people. There are very few places in the world where you can get in a vehicle in the morning and thirty minutes later you’re standing beside ruins that are five thousand years old. And you can still find people who live, it’s like, as though it were biblical. I mean, their implements are wooden…they live in literally straw and mud huts with their animals living in a little wing of their house. And then you also have the modern city side but you’ll see �a heard of camels get herded, you know they’ll be herded through the town by I guess betowin in the middle of the day. I mean it’s this mix of the ancient and the semi modern. There’ll be a Nissan factory here and then a little clay kiln where they cook bread. On the ins, they just slap it on the inside of the kiln. I mean how basic can you get? So, I think it was in some ways a very beautiful country. It has its downsides. It gets really hot in the summer and it rains and it gets cold in the winter. But, you know that’s little things that you have to deal with and I think that it was probably the best thing that I’ve ever gotten to do. Brindley Polk: Did you see any combat while you were over there? Rob Helton: Yes, I did. First tour was much worse than the second. Probably that has to do with Baghdad. I think it also has to do with the army hadn’t yet found its way. Thinking about this, I picked out a few stories that are appropriate and also I think illustrate a point. So, I think the first one that’s the most…probably the funniest actually I think it’s hilarious but a lot of people talk about their baptism by fire when you start reading history or their first experience in combat. My first experience was defining but it was also probably the best experience you could possibly have. It was in the early summer 2005 and part of our area of responsibility included check point 2-8. At one point this had been known as the mixing bowl. It was the most lethal area in Iraq. We had controlled it to the point that insurgents just couldn’t plant bombs under it anymore. But, the reason it’s called the mixing bowl is there’s two four lane highways that look just like interstates intersect and there’s a large over pass that goes over both highways, so it’s this confusing jumble of bridges. It kind of looks like the interchange in Atlanta actually is the thing that comes to mind. Brindley Polk: Spaghetti junction? Rob Helton: Yes. So it was a confusing little place to be and my patrols were originally supposed to be a click north of there, about a kilometer. We weren’t supposed to be out after dark which everyone who’s seen the movie Black Hawk Down knows you don’t plan on that, and I thought that’s been built in the army’s memory. Some of us learned from the movies or learned from experience to always carry your night vision and always have what’s called an infrared chemlight, we usually call them IR. To the naked eye it’s this little plastic tube that’s just red but in night vision it glows. Apparently, the National Guard’s night vision is not calibrated to see that but the regular army we can. There’s a little joke to that that I’ll explain later. Sure enough I carried a box of them in my salt pack; I carried my night vision goggles with me on my vest. So I was always ready but at the same time I was always carrying extra stuff. Well, we get to what we’re, what’s supposed to be the end of our patrol our lieutenant meets with the last sheik that we’re supposed to meet with. A sheik is like a local chieftain, and even in Baghdad the neighborhoods have sheiks. We hear some firing coming from around 2-8. We can hear obviously, AK-47 fire which is distinctive, but we can also hear small arms fire, U.S. small arms fire being returned. So we get in the trucks and our lieutenants try to call and find out who’s in contact. It turns out it was the other scout platoon, and they weren’t really good about informing anybody of what they were doing. When we got there we see some soldiers stretched out behind the guard rail on the side of the highway, and there’s this large embankment that goes down. It’s fairly steep but it’s about fifty feet to the ground because in Iraq everything is flat so when they build they highways and they need to make a bridge over something, they just made a big mound of sand and one highway will run over the other and its all manmade. So they’re up on top of this manmade berm and they’re firing down into this small, it’s not really a neighborhood more like a �hamlet I guess but…and there’s someone firing back at them, and there’s at least two sources or fire. Well the lieutenant decides that we’re going to go down there and find these guys. And it’s getting on towards dusk but nobody really thinks about night vision or to say anything and he’s giving us a little briefing up here on the highway. There are rounds flying by every once in awhile but we’re standing behind a truck. It’s just kind of a neat little experience just like wow this is it, we’re really going to do it this time. He says the rally point for our section is going to be behind the bridge pilings. For some reason we had starting wondering around in front of the truck and all the sudden they cut loose with another burst of fire and the Lt’s says alright lets go. To me the last instructions issued were the rally point is going to be down there at the bridge pilings, so I hurtled the guard rail and started sprinting down this embankment. I don’t know how far I got but I’m guessing it’s about ten steps and I hear Helton what the hell are you doing? I look to my left and there’s absolutely no one out there, I came to a dead stop and I was like o I’m by myself and I turned around and sure enough everyone’s up behind the guardrail. Somehow, everybody but me understood lets go to mean lets go to the guard rail and then we’re going to go down the bridge. Suddenly I realized I’m the only target out here, I’m the only show in town, so I start running back up the hill and it feels like there’s lead in my entire body, I’m sure I was running fast but it’s like eternity to get back to the guardrail, and every once in a while you hear a round smack in the dirt. I don’t think they were really shooting at me but they were shooting at something. I got across the guard rail, the Lt calls me an idiot ands like what do you think you’re doing? He’s like alright now our section is going to move down to the bridge pilings. Well I just tried to do that but yes sir. We finally get down to the bridge piling and the other section gets up under the eve of the bridge, where the bridge meets the bank. All seems to be going well but we realize in the last couple of minutes we’ve lost all sunlight. Suddenly the Lt realizes we don’t have night vision, he looks around and says does anyone have their night vision goggles? And it’s like I do sir and pulled them out of my pouch and mounted it on my weapon. He looks around and he’s like anybody got any IR chemlights? I was like they’re in the truck sir. So he kind of whispers to the other group, he’s like hey you guys have any night vision or IR chemlights? One of the sergeants had his night vision with him that was it. Brindley Polk: Wow. Rob Helton: So he looks at me and it’s probably the biggest deer in the headlights moment in my life. Because o my god he is really going to tell me to do this. He says Helton go back to the trucks get as many night vision goggles as you can and all the IR chemlights you can get and we’ll cover you. It flashed through my mind that this son of a bitch is really going to get me killed today but I said yes sir. When they started laying down cover I ran back up the embankment. Well, there was firing coming from the insurgents and I’m sure they were just shooting back in response to being fired at but when you’re running and there are bullets being fired at you for the first time it feels like every single one of them has a homing beacon, like you’re wearing a homing beacon and they’re coming right at you. I’m sure that wasn’t the case but I ran faster than I’ve ever run in my life. I hurtled the embankment going uphill, I still don’t know how I did that wearing all my equipment but I gathered all the night vision and all the chemlights that I could and when I started taking night vision goggles out of this one truck, the sergeant who had been left back up there in charge was like you better keep those straight. Like its dark, they’re being shot at, I don’t think anyone cares right now who belongs to which set of night vision, but whatever. So now I got it all together and I was like man I got to go back down this hill. This is where it gets really interesting because I didn’t wear night vision on my helmet �and it wouldn’t have helped me anyway because it’s two dimensional. There is no depth perception. You can’t tell how deep something is or how wide it is. I was like alright, I’ll I’ve got to do is make it back down this hill. I jumped the guard rail and start running. I made about three steps and because no one bothered to design drainage on these highways these big gullies have formed in the embankment. And so, like I said I took about three steps and when my foot came down it did not touch ground where it was supposed to, and I had an instant to just think damn, and then my foot hit the ground 6 inches 8 inches lower than it was supposed to but it was pretty shallow or pretty narrow I mean, and I started tumbling. I had a bag over my shoulder so it’s me, a rifle, and a bag tumbling. Somehow, I am proud to say I rolled out of it, combat roll I do not know but I got back on my feet and started running down the hill again. But the problem is I had gotten disoriented so I ran straight back into the same gully and did the same thing again. This time I rolled a little further and I know the word idiot went through my mind at some point between all the uffs and umphs but I got out of it and started running again and realized the ground was starting to flatten out and I ran into a thorn bush. So, I took a couple of minutes to extricate myself from that probably less than a minute but it was painful and slow process from where I was sitting. You can still hear fire every once in awhile. I finally make it to the bridge piling and the Lt says why were you making all that noise? And I’m thinking are you serious? You sent me back up there, I come all the way back down, I just went through all that and I brought you night vision that you should have had and this is all you can say to me? But of course I just I’m sorry sir and handed him the bag. We got everything spread out. We ended up moving into the little hamlet, we search every single house. There were a couple of more times where we fired at the insurgents because there was fire coming towards us. No big deal. By the end it, it wasn’t a big deal anymore which is the amazing thing it probably lasted for twenty thirty minutes. By the end of it we were like o they’re just shooting in our general direction again. It was a great experience because nobody got hurt us or them. We all received our combat action badge which was a big deal, it’s just a little badge that goes on your uniform but everyone can see that you’ve actually seen combat. Yeah, when you are a new sergeant and you show up to a unit all your new little privates see you their like o wow we’ve got a combat experienced NCO and it’s like you have no idea. Actually, my commander a couple of years later in the MP’s he says Sergeant Helton what did you get that cab for? Well sir it’s just a little fire fight around 2-8. I tried to make it sound all nonchalant because I don’t want to explain the tripping and the falling and anything else. He’s like that’s some good shit sergeant and he moves off. I’m like you have no idea you really don’t but… Brindley Polk: That’s, that’s great. I feel like you said it last for probably 30 minutes maybe? I bet it seemed like a lot longer especially running. Rob Helton: It did, it did. The other thing we realized we didn’t have was water. Brindley Polk: O! Rob Helton: So I was like my mouths full of dust, dust is coming out of my ears, it’s in my weapon and I suddenly realize I’m completely thirsty and nobody had water. We’re not going to go back to the trucks for that so by the time it was over we were all…if you’ve ever seen a camel drink water it takes awhile, and that’s what we looked like. We’re all a bunch of camel’s drinking water. But that was my baptism by fire, my first combat experience. I think it was all downhill after that but you know that’s one of the highlights of…I guess it’s one of the big highlights in the army is that I have a story that I am proud to tell that most people would be �humiliated by I think because the tripping and the falling is pretty clumsy but you know it was a learning experience and at the same time I can’t imagine how a first, a first contact or whatever you want to call it could go better because there was no bad memories that came out of it. Just learning a lot of things like the lieutenant’s and the sergeant’s actually started to enforce the policy of carrying your night vision and keeping a chemlight stuffed in your vest and making you carry water. We added a little weight to our trip but after that there’s another story that’s really important to me, it was in July of 2005. It was a little more complicated because…I didn’t mention this before about the school but App State was a very liberal school before the war and I remember after 9/11 there was a protest on campus and the students dressed up like terrorists. The only kind of terrorists we know of at that point, they dressed up like the PLA. I’m sorry the PLA that’s Chinese, the Palestinian group actually that is the PLA, but in any chase Yasser Arafat. That was the only terrorists that any of us knew about we saw them on TV all the time in the 90s. I guess the 90s were a really different time. I had sort of come up with this time of peace and we had Desert Storm I remember that as a kid, and I vaguely remember the invasion of Panama in 89 but war was this thing that just didn’t exist anymore. You would have peace keeping missions like Bosnia and Somalia even though that didn’t turn out so well it was a peace keeping mission. When I told my advisor that I was leaving the university in 2003 that I was joining the army, another advisor popped her head in the office and said don’t do it you’re ruining your life. That was the kind of attitude we had here on campus. It just wasn’t…it was a different time. I had heard a lot of stuff when I would go home or see on TV about how we were…actually there was an entire debate in this ethnic and issues class I took and the professor was incredibly anti-military. In the class, pretty much the entire class was me against them but he talked about how we were just killing innocent people in Afghanistan at that point we’d only been in Afghanistan, and he’s like military you just don’t understand they’re all brain washed. We are not brainwashed, but whatever. It is a form of programming in the military but it’s not the point that you can’t think for yourself. In any case I…I usually try to digress around this story but it’s important for me to have it recorded. There was a highway right in front of my FOB, a fob-Ford Operating Base but no one really cares what it stands for its just another base. We took out a patrol one night to meet with a Shake and our troop commander was actually going with us, he was Captain Sidel he was an absolutely outstanding officer. He was more or less in charge of the patrol but our lieutenant, Lieutenant Tom Wiesel he was a young lieutenant but he was also really squared away and knew what he was doing so he was really running the show, the problem was we were in the rear truck because you don’t put the commander of a troop in the lead or the rear of the convoy that’s the most dangerous position, so he goes in the middle somewhere. We ended up being the last truck in the convoy which is not normal for a lieutenant’s vehicle. All of that’s sort of superfluous anyway. We got on the highway and just south of our fob was a traffic circle and it had an old base for a statue of Saddam in the middle of it so you couldn’t see the other side from where you know you couldn’t see one side from the other. Halfway around the traffic circle on the western side was a small side road, and there were walls around it and a little market place. You really couldn’t see down the road unless you were right in front of it. Essentially, you had three roads coming out of this traffic circle and this is a pretty big threat to us when we’re in humvees. These are up armored humvees they’re ML-14’s. The latest and greatest models but they weren’t impervious to large explosives, especially ones that are in cars. The big concern was one day we’re going to be going around this traffic circle and if we’re all too close together, the trucks are too close together, and somebody runs a what’s called VBIED, vehicle born improvised explosive device, if someone runs one that’s big enough �into the center truck then the other two trucks are going to be damaged and we’re all going to be stuck in the middle of this traffic circle. We had come up with this policy that the first vehicle, well the whole convoy would slow down and the first vehicle would go as fast as it could through the check point and for 50 to 100 meters past the traffic circle and then all the other trucks would repeat this process. This worked because we kept distance and spacing but the problem was when you’re the last truck going into the traffic circle nobody really knows what you’re doing. We never thought this was really a problem. O, and our radios did not work that well because we had these jamming devices to jam cell phone signals but they also jammed our radios. We can’t really talk to each other without turning off the jamming device; you turn the jamming device off that means insurgents can detonate bombs using cell phones. So it’s kind of a catch 22 I guess. In any case, our convoy came up to the traffic circle and the first three trucks went through exactly as planned and our truck was set to fall. We got through the traffic circle just fine. We were a little ways behind the third truck but not too far we were still going pretty fast. I guess I should explain the lieutenant sits in the front right seat, I was sitting behind the driver, our interpreter was behind the lieutenant, and our gunner was our sergeant and he was actually facing to the rear with his weapon that way he could cover any vehicles coming up behind us. Well, we’re almost to the point where we are going to slow down and I hear the gunners scream o shit, and he starts trying to make himself one with the inside of the truck. I mean, he was doing his best to get down through the gunners hatch, which is not normal. Usually if anything happens they stand up and get on the gun or they say hey we got something that might be coming up. There’s no warning, no firing, no nothing he just tried to get inside with us. I had just enough time to consider how really odd that was when the back of our truck was impacted, is the best way to put it. If you’ve ever been in a rear end accident, it was the hardest rear ending I’ve ever felt. This guy was probably doing 50 to 60 miles an hour. It hit our truck so hard that it actually damaged the transmission, it knocked the truck out of gear, it shorted everything out inside, it turned the truck kind of sideways and this is a heavy vehicle. Our driver wasn’t wearing a seat belt and he also didn’t have his helmet strapped under his chin so his forehead impacts the steering wheel and knocks him out. The gunner had not…this is just a list of complacent things but he had not put the retaining pin for the machine gun in the mount, so he know has himself and an M240 sitting down inside the turret. The machine gun is just down in here with him so he has no chance of using it at all. The interpreter Bob was a little shook up but through all of this I kind of caught the Lt’s eye for just a split second and we were both thinking the same thing at the same time, we got to talk about it later. See when a VBIED is set to detonate usually they have what is called a crush wire in the bumper so when it impacts something it completes the circuit. The two wires connect and the bomb goes off. This takes everything out of the hands of the driver because he doesn’t actually have to push a button it’s not like the movies, he just hits it and it blows up. However, if that fails or if his local neighborhood insurgents or whatever don’t think he can do it they’ll rig a secondary trigger device. Either he has it, if he doesn’t think he is going to make it to the target or the locals will rig up a cell phone detonator just in case he doesn’t keep his nerve up, and they’ll blow it up for him. It just kind of flashed through our heads that we’re dead already if this thing goes off we are all going to die, we might as well go out fighting. We both jumped out to engage the car and somehow Sergeant Garcia picked that 240 up out of the turret with him and he shouldered it like Rambo and he started firing. The problem was he didn’t actually start firing at the car he started firing at the back of our truck so for the rest of the tour there were six little holes in the back of our truck. Which was not really what he was supposed to do but whatever. He actually did block �the fire into the car but it was just like a mad minute on the range, everyone is firing as fast as they can. Somehow we hear Godfrey say guys get in, he woke up and he got the truck back into gear, essentially back into gear, and so somehow the Lt scrambled back into the truck and I got back in the truck, Sergeant Garcia stopped firing at some point and we just started limping down the road in this truck. Lt says Garcia what the hell just happened? He’s like sir he came out of that side road and the car had no headlights. This is all critical stuff but it was dusk dark, there’s no headlights, the car was swerving, and speeding up towards us and we have our lights on because we need everyone to know we’re there. This was after curfew, no cars were supposed to be on the road except us. So, essentially it looked in the old sense that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it must be a duck. It looked like a VBIED and therefore it had to be one. What was supposed to happen was Sergeant Garcia should have stood up and engaged the car with his weapon because it’s obviously intends to impact our truck. Well, no one knew what had happened to us and our radios were off but thankfully the commander who was two trucks in front of us heard firing from a couple hundred meters down the road, ordered the convoy to stop. The truck that was supposed to be in front of us hadn’t even noticed that we weren’t there. They turned the convoy around and they caught up to us. We kind of met in the middle I guess. We turned the whole convoy around to get back up to the car. By the time we got there the driver’s side door is open and there’s this group of men leaving. The Lt and I jumped out and we stopped them. They were just civilians but they had stopped to help this man, he was still alive when they pulled him out of the car. They said he was really shot up and everything but he was alive, so they put him on a bongo truck. A bongo truck is just a little pickup truck, flat nosed they’re everywhere in Iraq. They put him on one to go up to the hospital. We just couldn’t believe the guy was alive but we had to secure the scene because we thought this car was a bomb. We called for EOD, explosive ordinance disposal. As usual they took about 45 minutes to get there. They had to finish up whatever game they were playing on Xbox because that’s what they were always doing. Hardest working people in Iraq because they are involved in combat from sun up to sun down on that stupid TV but anyway. At least every time we went in there that’s what they were doing but in any case they got out there, they used a little robot to clear the car. They get a guy in a bomb suit and he actually goes up and opens everything in the car and they’re like if there are explosives in this vehicle they’re really well concealed because we can’t find them. We started…I started to get a real sinking feeling. They did find whiskey bottles in the back floorboard. What we had run into, or had run into us was a drunk driver. Whether he was an insurgent or not really didn’t matter at that point because what he had done had met all the criteria of a VBIED so we, you know, there was no legalistic talk but over the years I’ve had time to reason it out. Under the loss of laws of land warfronter (inaudible) and everything and under our rules of engagement he met all the criteria so legally and I guess from the armies standpoint morally we did nothing wrong but in the end none of that really changed the fact for me that we killed an innocent man and he was guilty of nothing more than drinking and driving. Which is foolish and selfish but…he really didn’t deserve to get shot. On the flip side of that we could not have done anything else except sit there and just waited to die which is…I don’t know from where we were sitting that’s what was going to happen. That’s not what a soldier does I guess, that’s not what real soldiers do. So there was no way out of that situation without someone being prepared to die I guess. I wrestled with that for a long time but finally I just came to the conclusion that there’s nothing I can do about it and we all did what we thought was right at that moment. That’s I guess the problem with war, every war. Brindley Polk: You have a protocol to follow. �Rob Helton: Yeah, well it’s also a matter of survival that you want to survive. You know, it still amazes me that the Lt and I both thought we were just going to die at some point, at any moment it’s all over with and we wouldn’t really know but we were not going to sit there and take it so you know, how can we both be thinking the same thing at the same time and just glance at each other and catch each other’s eyes and know that. Then of course there’s the whole thing with my sergeant. That was just a series of wrong, wrong, and wrong but you know that happens and nothing was done to him for it and he straightened himself up later I guess. That was an experience that to me kind of explains so much else that happens in Iraq. When I hear about a number of things that are not explained there are some recent incidents that have happened in Afghanistan, they don’t fall in the category but in this case this man yes he was not supposed to die, he was not an insurgent to our knowledge but there was nothing else we could do with him. Do innocent people get killed in war, the stupid term collateral damage, yes it does happen but it is not intentional. Like that professor used to tell us in class, we did not go out seeking to hurt an innocent person. As a matter of fact professionals, you pride yourself on not involving the innocence, leave them alone. I better get moving on because I don’t want to take too much time. There’re far too many stories to share but especially from both tours that’s just from my first tour that’s the first couple of months. There are a lot of just mundane details. There are a lot of days where somebody shoots at you, you shoot back and then it’s like well where did they go? Then you go looking for them and you can’t find them. Or there’s just an IED that goes off and you spend 6 hours waiting on EOD to show up to just clear the area. There was a lot of that but one of my favorite illustrations of how the propaganda machine of the insurgents works is third cav, every line platoon or every line troop is split up into two platoons of scouts and bradley’s which are like the little miniature tanks. I hate calling them that but it’s the easiest way to explain it. Cause scouts have so much pride we are not tankers. Here’s two platoons’ of tanks and you all work together and usually you each split off from your platoon to work with part of another platoon from tanks. The tanks require very sophisticated units. They use what’s called a gas turbine engine. It’s basically a jet engine but rather than having a nozzle to produce thrust it has a drive shaft to produce torque. They’re fascinating, they’re actually comparatively quiet compared to a diesel of the same size but they’re gas guzzlers and they’re extremely complex. The maintenance on the engine itself is done by civilian contractors who are like LockheedMartin or somebody I don’t know but they…that’s all they do. Our mechanics are required to do like the little things, the grunt work like unhooking the hoses and things. Well sometimes this little process doesn’t go very well and in this case it didn’t because one tank the fuel line did not get properly reconnected. This engine is producing 1500 horse power it’s really hot. In the middle of winter if you’re really cold you want to stand behind one because it’s pretty awesome. They’re really easy to spot when there’s snow outside because there’s this big fan of dry land behind them. In the desert nobody wants to be anywhere near it unless somebody is shooting at you, in that case you want to be as close as you can. We…I can’t even remember which tank it was, it was from 4th platoon I’m like 90% certain of that because they had the worst luck but…anyways this tank catches on fire in the middle of Tampa. MSR Tampa is this big four lane highway just south of Baghdad. Highway one to the Iraqis’. In any case it catches on fire; well the crew figures it out. The tracks on fire they try the fire extinguishers and everything nothing is working. They all get out of the track, they try and start throwing their equipment off and my patrol rolls up to it right as they’re bailing the last of their equipment off the track. Our lieutenant, old eagle eyes, he looks across this there’s this large canal just to the south of the road and he sees a van over there and someone has a video camera filming this tank burning. He’s like �o no no no no they’re not doing that. We have to back track up the highway to the nearest bridge which is like a mile up the road. We get across the bridge and now we’re going down this little bitty dirt road it’s like a cart road and its right under this power line so even when we turn off the jamming systems we still can’t get a radio signal. It doesn’t really matter because all we’re going to do is sprint; you know drive a mile back down to this road. We get to the van and suddenly there’s one guy there and no camera. We’re like hmmm wonder where the camera went probably to Al Tizera but whatever the case is he’s doing nothing wrong, we search the vehicle there’s nothing in there that indicates he’s been filming. We ask him where the camera is, o I don’t know I’m here alone you know. Our commander has no arrived at the burning tank which is not far away it’s like 150-200 meters. There’s no way to talk to each other because we can’t get our radios to work and we can’t yell at each other. Our Lt is like we’re going to drive back up to the bridge and we’ll get a signal and talk to the commander then come back down here. We leave two trucks there, we take the other two and we drive back up. The only reason that’s important is because we’ve crossed the same section of road three times. Well we get back to the van, the other two trucks are getting kind of antsy, they’re ready to leave so we all get back in convoy and we start driving out of this dirt road and we come to this…it’s like a small dip just a meter less, a meter lower than the rest of the road. The truck in front of us disintegrates by the hood of it does. The truck the body itself was fine, the whole crew was fine but the wheels go different directions the hood actually flies, I even remember watching it out my window craning my neck to watch as it just flipped and flipped and landed in the canal. It was just crazy to watch and we all of course come to a dead stop. The Lt and I got out and we jumped, we ran all the way up to this truck start pulling everybody out and they’re dazed. I mean the nose of the truck if nothing else impacted the dirt and kind of stopped so they’ve all been thrown around pretty hard. We ended up calling in a medivac for the gunner because he’d been jarred around so bad they were afraid he’d broken his ribs but it turned out they were just bruised. In any case, the whole incident destroyed a truck everybody was fine that’s great. Somehow the insurgents had not set this bomb off. The worst they could have done was when we only had two trucks out there alone but they didn’t do that so they managed to destroy a humvee. Well, a couple of weeks later somebody managed to pull up, I can’t remember if it was on you-tube or in one of those other sites, but it’s a video of that tank burning out on the highway and it’s a clip from Al Terzera and they’re claiming responsibility for blowing up this tank. The problem is they can’t really blow them up unless the tank actually runs over a bomb they’re too well armed but sure enough there they are claiming responsibility. Yes we’ve destroyed this American tank; you know the imperialist aggressors or whatever. That’s the propaganda machine that was insurgents. They were masters of editing video to make it look like they were responsible for things that they didn’t actually do. There’s a famous example of a medic who was shot in the chest but he was wearing his bullet proof vest. The insurgent video shows him just falling over, the rest of the video shows him getting back up and running around like what just happened to me. Brindley Polk: Dazed and Confused. Rob Helton: Exactly. Am I taking too long? Brindley Polk: No, no you’re fine I’m enjoying your stories. Rob Helton: OK. Brindley Polk: Did you see any casualties while you were in combat? �Rob Helton: Yeah, we had six killed my first tour and one permanently disabled and we lost our interpreter as well. Actually, that is one of the couple of things that I would like to mention because there are some people in particular that I would like to mention. There are a lot of names that I don’t want to throw into the interview because I still know them and I don’t know, you know I didn’t go ask them hey do you mind if I bring up what you did but… there’s sergeant first class Christopher Phelps is the first one I’d like to mention. He was a platoon sergeant for the fourth platoon. He’s a tanker a career tanker, he was getting ready to retire. He had some really, really cute kids and he talked a lot about them, I’m going to go fishing with my son all the time when I retire. He was really looking forward to that. Platoon sergeants and Cav, I guess any combat arms they’re infallible they’re immortal. Nothing can ever happen to them. They’re never tired, they’re never hungry and I mean this literally. They just seem to eat when they feel like it and they sleep when they feel like it. If they don’t get to they don’t seem to mind all that much, they might be a little more testy than other times but… Sergeant Phelps was a very approachable platoon sergeant. I very rarely interacted with my own platoon sergeant but Sergeant Phelps you could just…he liked to laugh and he liked to joke but he was also very tough and very serious, he was a formal drill sergeant. Sometimes we would split into what were called quarter troops they would take a section and a half of Bradley’s, so three Bradley’s, and two tanks, there were only four tanks in a tank platoon, and so they would take the platoon sergeant from the tank platoon and the platoon leader from the scout platoon and then just reverse that for the other sections and it’s called a quarter troop. You got equivalent, four equivalent levels of fire power or four equivalent blocks of fire power. The leadership is all integrated so it’s a really great idea actually, it works out really well. That’s what we had done for a month we were working out of…o my gosh I can’t remember the name of that FOB. Anyway, it was the southwest FOB on byop because we were conducting operation safe skies. That’s a whole different story. The rest of the time we were at FOB talk and we had already moved back there. I went to eat breakfast with my buddy Buckles and if there’s one thing the army does right its breakfast. Every morning there’s eggs, there’s bacon, there’s ham, there’s French toast which is my favorite. This morning in particular there had been an IED attack the night before and had killed a local, or a third party, third country national basically a truck driver. The bomb had been sitting right next to us when we were stopped at one point and we didn’t realize it so I’m having one of those I’m lucky to be alive moments and I’m like I’m going to have some awesome French toast this morning because this is my little pleasure in life. I got a couple of slices and I got the syrup, and I got the whip cream, and I got the little strawberry topping and we had all of this it was awesome, every morning. I go to sit down with Buckles and Sergeant Phelps comes over and I don’t know how to describe him, he was black as night and just this big guy but he always had this funny looking grin on his face. He comes over; he’s really sitting down with Buckles because he knows Buckles pretty well. He looks at my plate, he goes Helton that is some Martha Stewart shit right there and he’s talking about the French toast, and he’s like I swear to it you’re going to eat breakfast with me every morning for the rest of this tour and you’re going to fix me some French toast. I was like roger Ser. And we had a nice little breakfast conversation. It was a distinct memory of Sergeant Phelps. You’re only vaguely aware of what the other platoons are doing most of the time at least soldiers are because it’s not important for us to know. My section went on patrol that day and we came back late that evening, we cleaned up cleaned our weapons. Well it’s free time you can go to the gym, you can go to the phones you can do whatever so I told my sergeant hey I’m going to go over to the phones and call my girlfriend. I went over there and called my girlfriend of the time, talked to �her for a little while. I stopped by the chow and grabbed a snack and then I go back to the barracks. This is old Iraqi army barracks they look like they were falling down but they worked. I get there and I get upstairs and it is dead quiet. I realize that my entire troop is not there, no one. Never at any time is everyone gone and I walked down…I get up my nerve and I walk down to the platoon talk, the tactical operation center, it’s really just the platoon I’m sorry troop headquarters and it’s where all the radios and things are, and it’s locked and there’s no one inside. I felt really…I mean it’s the worst feeling that I’d had at that point because I realized that my, everyone I know, everyone I trained with is gone right now and I don’t know where they are and I don’t know what they’re doing and I’m not there. I’m freaking out a little bit, and I’m a private that’s allowed you just do it. I walk back to my room; I think I actually ran back, I got all gear together. I had everything set up so I could throw it on in a moment’s notice and I walk over to our neighbor troop, killer troop, and they’re our rivals but I went to basic training with some of their guys so I found my buddies and I’m like hey man do you know where my troop is? This is a really stupid question because there’s like 130 of us. He’s like hey man yeah iron hog got called out for something and they’re headed up north and I don’t know what’s going on dude. I was like well listen if you hear anything or if you guys get called out you come get me I’m ready to go just come get me. So I went back to my barracks and I broke down one of my weapons and started cleaning it because it’s the only thing I had to do. Eventually, I start hearing people coming back into the building and this is a couple of hours later and the entire time I’m flipping out because I just know my guys are involved in some big battle somewhere and I’m not there with them. The thing is when you come back in the buildings after patrol even if you’re, I mean maybe if you’re dead tired, most of the time you’re joking with each other you’re like yeah I’m going to call Trip’s wife you know my other girlfriend or something. It’s just guy talk, and we do it all the time and everything is dead quite. All I can hear is their equipment as they’re carrying it scraping on their uniform. I walk out in the hall and there’s Stevenson, and Sergeant Rode and I think I think Lawson. They look at me and Sergeant Rode goes where the hell were you at? I said I’ve been here for hour’s sergeant. He just kind of shakes his head and goes pshh and walks on down the hallway. Well finally the rest of the troop gets back, and my whole platoon gets back and I start finding out what happened. The issue was that Sergeant Phelps patrol had been traveling up Tampa towards Baghdad airport and this new bomb that we’ve never heard of called EFP, explosively formed projectile, had gone through his truck and it had amputated three of his limbs and both of his drivers’ arms and continued on out the other side of the truck. Until this point we thought we were pretty safe inside our vehicles. It was a pretty big shock in itself. The amazing thing was the medic that was on scene, Beaton who is absolutely outstanding, kept him alive and got him on a medivac bird and got him to Baghdad. The driver survived and Sergeant Phelps lived for seven and a half hours. That is almost impossible with that level of trauma but the reason the entire troop went is because we all received the same inoculation so that everyone who is eligible, and I would have been because I’m an O-, was taken up there and everyone who was the same blood type, he had one of the really common blood types, so everybody because we all have the same stuff floating around in our blood stream. Everybody that wasn’t his blood type could provide security on the way back because you’re obviously going to be a little weak because they’re not just taking like a blood bank sample this is like draining you. That just about killed me knowing maybe my couple of whatever liters or whatever would have made a difference. I don’t think you can live if they take liters but that’s the idea. That really hurt but…that was the first time that we lost somebody and I mean it wasn’t the first casualty in the regiment that was actually the regimental sergeant major. It wasn’t the first casualty in the squad �rant that was a kid that drove his tank off into a ditch and drowned. There had been others but it was the first one for our troop and to lose Sergeant Phelps, platoon sergeant was earth shattering. His poor driver, who’s name I can’t remember, his baby had just been born he hadn’t been sent home for it as far as I know so at some point you realize that he’s never going to get to hold his son with his own arms so he’s going to have to use his prosthetics. That gets really disturbing after a couple of years of thinking about it. In any case it was a rough experience but Sergeant Phelps apparently was still talking to everybody even when he was so badly wounded. They could make out most of what he was saying; he was still looking after his soldiers. His driver…this poor kid that got to us a month before he deployed, at most it was three months before he deployed but I think he was in the last group. He actually, in spite of the fact that he’s lost his arms actually kept his mind in the game and asked the gunner to grab the wheel because he couldn’t stop the truck, or he couldn’t steer the truck. That level of commitment, you know I’ve never been wounded thankfully but they were incredible soldiers. Sergeant Phelps’ family I know they were taken care of but I’ll never forget him and I’ll never forget seeing his family around the troop and things. I really hate that he didn’t get to take those fishing trips. It’s hard to realize that someone can spend an entire career in the military and then everything gets snatched away right at the end. At the same time he was very proud and I know that he would have been out there with his soldiers. Our other casualties, fourth platoon got hit hard during the deployment. Like I said, their tank burned up, they lost their platoon sergeant, one of their soldiers; then they lose their lieutenant, their replacement platoon sergeant and two of their soldiers. Lieutenant Smith, I don’t remember his first name he was from Durham, North Carolina. Sergeant Freeman had just come to us I don’t really know anything about him except that at his memorial they said that the first thing he told the first, our first sergeant was I’m going to be sergeant major in the army one day. That’s a pretty lofty goal when you’re not that far up on the list but he was determined. The other two were Reyes and Pope. Pope sticks out in my mind because he was one of the comedians. Every platoon it seems to be the case is issued an idiot and a comedian. The idiot is there to make everyone else look better and the comedian is there for the laughs and he can keep everybody going. Pope was that guy for fourth platoon. He would do these things called who-wa-days. Now you have to understand Pope was stop lost he wasn’t really supposed to be there but he you know made him be there. He would paint his face up in camo paint and he would put on his spurs, he would put his spurs on his boots and apparently he would even strap his Stetson to the top of his helmet. He would go on mission like this and he would get out of his truck, or get out of the tank and the Iraqi’s would be staring at him like who is this idiot? His platoon sergeant and everything allowed it so nobody is going to stop him but that was just Pope’s way and he had some really funny stories. He had some really close buddies in the troop and they were really funny to watch because they could say one word and all of them would bust out laughing, that’s just the kind of guy he was. They were killed by a VBIED at checkpoint 32. They were actually searching cars under a bridge and that was the same day that our interpreter Bob was killed. That’s another casualties of the war that I don’t think gets mentioned a lot but the interpreters some of them were absolutely outstanding, other ones you never knew if you could trust them or not. We weren’t really sure if they were interpreting what you were saying or just telling both sides what they wanted to hear. Brindley Polk: Right. Rob Helton: Bob was really good he was a school teacher before the war. He was just this nice quiet little guy and we eventually finally got him to start expressing himself a little more. Like �hey Bob when we’re mad, when we’re yelling you need to be yelling too that way they understand that we’re mad. Otherwise they might just think we’re being stupid or something. He really got the picture and he was a great little guy. He was always asked us what words meant because he couldn’t understand what we were talking about. Usually they would be swear words but sometimes it would be really significant stuff and it’s like alright Bob, get your notebook out let me explain. Really cool guy and we lost him that day too. That was a rough experience because the thing that they don’t show in the movies is somebody has to clean up afterwards and that’s usually just soldiers, we get sent out to clean it up. When it’s your friends it’s not…it’s not easy but at some point your mind shuts off what you’re actually doing and you just develop a process of dealing with it and I guess just kind of shut it out. That was a bad day for fourth platoon especially because they’ve lost over a quarter of their platoon at this point. There are only 16 guys in a tank platoon, and they’ve lost 5. Really rough for them, they never got enough replacements so we ended up having to stick some scouts over there to work with them. The last casualty was actually my really good friend Jared Kubasak. He was from Rocky Mountain, Virginia and his parents are Dana and Daryl Kubasak two wonderful people. Jared, Lord God don’t let me misquote the date, but it was 12 December of 2005. We’re on a routine patrol, nothing new nothing different. We’re just going out to set up some positions and his Bradley commander, I’ll refrain from using his name, but he got lazy and decided to take a dirt road instead of a hardball, paved road. The thing was we had been strictly ordered unless it was necessary for a mission or in direct pursuit of the enemy we were not to come of the paved roads because you can’t bury a bomb under a paved road. You can, but you’d have to fill it back in whatever. Well he got lazy and took a dirt road ten meters from a paved one and there was a bomb buried there and it went off and killed Jared. It blew a hole in the floor of the track…I don’t know two or three feet behind Jared and I’m sure the concussions what killed him. The thing was the track caught on fire; of course the radios aren’t working so our lieutenant if he had not been looking back through this little tiny hole between the hatch and the top of the turret, he just for some reason was looking back that way, and he saw the detonation. I was asleep in the back of our Bradley cause there’s nothing else for me to do and I feel it stand up on its nose almost. That only happens when the driver actually slams on the brakes normally you don’t use them you just take your foot off the gas and it’ll stop by itself. We actually, there was sliding and a really steep angle down the nose and I was like Jesus what just happened? I’m trying to get my little helmet on to be able to talk to the rest of the crew which didn’t work anyway but for some reason it’s just the reaction I had, and I’m like hey Godfrey what’s going on man? The track spins around and we start flying back in the other direction. Nobody can tell me anything, I get my helmet on and I’m like o yeah it doesn’t work. I just get my gear ready because I’m sure whatever is about to happen is going to be serious. The thing is we get there and the drivers hatch pops open and I watch Godfrey climb out through the hell hole, the hell hole is just a gap between the back and front of the track where the driver can climb through. I watch him jump out of the track and I started to open the turret door and the turret spins and it’s like wow, what what’s going on here? I did hear the Lt yelling and I knew he was gone. I realized that two people had just gotten off my track, nobody’s let the ramp down to let me out, there’s a crew door we never opened it but I did this day. As soon as I get it open I’ve got…o my gosh what was his name, a sergeant from the other track from Jared’s track is yanking me out through that hole. It’s a little tiny door but he pulls me modally out of the door and is just yelling for a fire extinguisher. He is in a panic and I have no idea what he is talking about until I look. I get around from, I step away from the track and I see that their track is on fire. I grab a hold of him �because he is obviously in a panic and I just kind of shook him and was like hey, hey is anyone still inside? He said Kuba is still in the front, and we called Jared Kuba all the time you just shorten every bodies name. I pretty much just forgot about him or and just ran to the track because Jared was my friend and it doesn’t matter if they’re your friend not you don’t leave somebody like that. We all got to the track and the Lt and Godfrey are already trying to pull Kuba out and the track commander is just running around like a mad man I have no idea what he’s doing. He did get a fire extinguisher eventually and he sprayed the top of the flames for some reason, he was obviously a little out of his mind. I got up on the track and this thing is obviously busted really bad like the engine is on fire and is right in front of us. Well I can see Jared and he looks perfectly fine. Bodily he is completely intact. We actually, they initially pulled on his gear and had pulled his vest and his shirt off and his skin wasn’t even broken, he’s just kind of sitting there. We’re all three pulling and the problem with fire is the inside of the track started catching on fire and we’d already tried all the fire extinguishers nothing worked; the internal fire extinguishers the hand-held fire extinguishers wouldn’t stop the burning. The flames actually started getting in the ammo this took a couple of minutes. Well we finally realized what had happened was that the engine had been knocked off its block and had come through the firewall between the driver and the engine. The engine sits right next to the driver, or the drivers next to it whatever. It had pinned his legs inside and there’s no way we were going to be able to move the engine block and there’s no way to get him out, at least at the time we didn’t think of it later we realized what we could have done but it would have been rather gruesome and we weren’t prepared for that in the moment I guess. In any case, the fire got into the ammunition that’s stowed in the back and there’s no way around that…there’s also two tow missiles mounted on the side of the turret, those are pretty big explosives and eventually they’re going to blow up. The big problem wasn’t the small arms ammunition in the back, the little just regular bullets…they’re not really a problem I guess and we didn’t really think about them at first. The problem is that the ammunition for the 25 mike mike (25mm) the main, the little automatic cannon that the Bradley has is in plastic crates and its high explosive. They’re small but enough of them blowing up in a small space like that were going to get, basically it’s going to kill us. We’re not thinking about that, Godfrey and I weren’t, and that’s…the Lt if he had not been there to make the call and tell us to leave…I don’t think it…we probably would have stayed there until we died but he looked at both of us he looked at Kuba and he says guys we’ve got to go. We kind of just… that was a stunning statement, you’re taught from day one to never leave anybody and we didn’t really realize at the time we weren’t really leaving him we just had to get away from the track but we both just kind of glanced at him like he was an idiot and we went back to what we were doing. He grabbed a hold of us and he’s like we have to go now and so we did and that was the hardest thing that I’ve ever done. Literally, there are things that I say every once in awhile this is the hardest thing I’ve ever done, no. Leaving my friend was hard, the worst. That was the first time that I had ever really been angry…at the insurgents. To this day I’m not mad at them but at that particular moment I was because why did you have to do this, you know. That bomb could have been there a month, six months it had just been sitting there waiting and it was on a crushed switch, the same concept as a crush switch in a VBIED but you just run over it and it detonates the bomb. It’s the perfect weapon because it’s just going to wait. In any case, I was mad but thankfully I exercised self control because you’re just looking around and you’re just like man is there anybody to shoot at right now, and that sounds terrible but I never acted on it. I know some people that didn’t maintain that level of discipline but thoughts, strange thoughts go through your mind. We just pulled back to a minimum safe distance and watched the track burn. �Probably the most annoying part of the day outside of…no that wasn’t annoying losing your friend that was devastating. Annoying is our squandrant commander pulls up and Lieutenant Colonel Brown comes out and he sends us back to the base without the track, without Kuba. He says that my guys are going to take care of this we’ll watch it burn down you guys go back to base. To this day I cannot forgive him for that because that was the wrong answer he should have let us stay there it was…it’s his funeral fire and his dad is actually the one who put it that way. We became very good friends when I got back, he called it his son’s funeral fire and he’s right that’s what it was. There’s no need to go into the details of how that turned out but we recovered the track, and Jared was recovered in the sense that needed to be done. That was the first time that I really got to up close see the cost of war because after it was over I felt a need to see his family. We had talked about going to visit each other. Hey my parents live in Rocky Mountain, my dad’s a big gun nut you guys would get along great…hey I’m just down in Hickory you could come visit and so I called them when I was on my post deployment leave and his dad’s response was you are shitty me right? I thought he meant he didn’t want to see me and he’s like I would love to meet you, you are for real right? I went to meet them and they are two of the most wonderful people ever and they’re what is called gold star parents because they lost their son and he was also their only child. That has been very hard but Dana, his mother, has found some really amazing outlets and they honor their son. They go to all… the warrior’s walk down in Fort Stuart, they’ve gone to visit the memorial for 3d Cav…they stay really active and really positive and I love them dearly. They came down and had Christmas with us last year even they’re like family. You see the cost of war in the lives around them as well because Jared’s friends were all there in Rocky Mountain. It’s devastating for a small town. There’s a memorial that dates back to the Civil War, everyone in Franklin County, Virginia who’s been killed in a conflict. Of course the Confederate dead, World War I, and World War II, Jared is the only name on his side. It just says Gulf Wars 1991 and there’s no end date and his name is there and that’s it. One man from Franklin County, Virginia but you can see the affects. It makes it…it makes the reality of war much more significant. In any case, those are our casualties. My second tour there was only one incident and they lived that day but…it’s what I call a hidden cost of the war. Two men, Alex Knapp and James Hackimer, both lost both legs. They lived then and they…James actually received prosthetics and he was learning to walk again and he was thrown out of a roller coaster in upstate New York last year and killed him. I saw the article on yahoo initially and there were comments like who would let a double amputee on a roller coaster? It’s like o my gosh, you can’t comment on something like that because James Hackimer if he wanted on that roller coaster he was going to get on it. He was that kind of guy. The first time he and I ever met we argued, we were yelling at each other. I think the second time we ever talked to each other we were yelling at each other. It doesn’t matter, when I saw him after we got back it was a 15 month tour by the time we got back to Germany he recovered enough to come see us. You see them, you hug them and they’re like brothers it doesn’t matter how you felt about each other before. Knapp ended up dying of his injuries two years ago so there’s one guy that’s still alive, Meyer. I told him I was like dude you got to, you got to keep kicking. He’s tough, he’s a good guy. Those two, Knapp and Hackimer, they are just as surely casualties of this war as anybody else, just as if they died there on the battlefield. The thing is they got to come home and see their families. Hackimer got to see his kids, Knapp got to see his parents at least they got that chance a little extra time. It was very inspiring to read Hack’s mothers words after he died. She said we were gifted with two more years with him or another year and a half I think, it was borrowed time but we got it and we were fortunate. That really you know to me is an inspiration. She took a �tragedy, double tragedies but she turned it into the right you know positive. That was kind of I don’t know, in my own way of dealing with the war there are many other things that I…there are some things that I just wouldn’t want to talk about but in any case there’s a lot to deal with and some guys can’t handle that some guys box it up. After listening to Dana and Daryl and reading that quote from Hacker’s mother and so many others I realized that boxing it up and trying to put it away, that’s the wrong answer...because you’re turning yourself into another casualty. No one likes to talk about all the veterans who commit suicide, the veterans who have severe post traumatic stress disorder; they can’t live a daily normal life. For myself I learned to live with it, to make it apart of myself. This is an experience that I chose to have and I wanted to be there. There’s no reason to block all of that out and try to…a friend of mine up here said one time that he puts it in a box and every once in awhile it comes out and plays with him. I was like that’s not how I’m going to live my life…in these tragedies I guess I found my inspiration for living. Those were our guys that we lost I’m sorry I got kind of poetic there for a second. Brindley Polk: That’s fine and you’re way of living, and you’re back here at App even after leaving. Why did you come back? Rob Helton: Well there’s the whole transfer credits thing. I’ll just go ahead and get the mundane reason out of the way, I mean I had a lot of credits here I qualified for academic forgiveness because I was a dumb kid like a lot of other people that go to college. I in a way was looking for the challenge because I didn’t expect App to be what it is now. I thought it was still going to be that real liberal hippy anti-war anti-military school and it’s not. My first day back in class, twice I was told…in both classes I couldn’t get out of explaining that I’d been in the military for the last six years because they were very specific about where’ve you been what have you been doing? It’s like well I’m either going to sound like an idiot since I hadn’t been in college since 2003 and it’s 2010 or I can explain, so I did. In both cases they were like wow we would really like to hear about your experiences. I was like what?! What did you just say? Are you serious? You know when I left here people were looking at me like I was some kind of a leper and now it’s like you’re happy to have me here. That’s the experience that I’ve had consistently. You know, it’s really heartening because I know my uncles were, as I said family history was just buried under the rug as far as their time in Vietnam but that’s the way it was in the entire country. They had to suffer and in some cases it’s been forty years since they’ve been back almost I guess it’s 2012. Closing in on forty years that they had to suffer and because they did because of what they went through and being ignored and being spit upon and everything else, veterans today don’t have to be treated like that. People understand that even if you don’t like the war, I have a good friend up here that’s a Core Man that’s a marine medic. He’s a navy personal who’s was a medic with the marines. He was in the invasion of Iraq, he completed his time honorably he got out and he became a war protester with Iraq and Afghanistan veterans against the war or Iraq veterans against the war or one of those groups. He actually organized…he helped organize the protest down at Crawford, Texas at the western white house (bushes house? In audible) I don’t agree with what he was doing, he was protesting at the same time I was in Iraq but at the same time I was like dude that is awesome way to go and that’s sort of where the country has come to. Most of the country, there are still people out there who don’t like us. They treat us so much better so much nicer. The weekend I proposed to my wife in Blowing Rock we stayed at one of those little cabins over there and the morning that we were checking out I left my at that time fiancé at the front desk and I went and got my jeep and pulled up to the front. I walk in and the lady hands me a couple of hundred bucks in cash I was like what’s this for? You �had to pay in advance…well she said that’s the military discount if you had told me you were in the military I would have given you the discount to start with so here it is. I said you don’t have to do this. She said no I appreciate what you’re doing, I appreciate you all and she said if you ever come back make sure you tell me you’re military. Yes ma’am I’ll do that. It just wasn’t something that I told people. One of my friends says real professionals don’t do that and you know what he’s right. It’s your job it’s your profession. It used kind of annoy me when I was in Atlanta airport coming or going from Iraq and people, random people would walk up to me and say I want to thank you for what you’re doing. I said how do you know what I’m doing? I understand now how they feel because I thank young veterans, I thank older veterans because I realize there are a lot of men and women that came before me but the point is…that…I’m sorry I got off subject but Appalachian has changed so much and it’s so much more positive now. I’m not sure I’m a big fan of the whole football thing, still haven’t gone to a game but you know it’s at this place I have seen 9/11, invasion of Afghanistan, invasion of Iraq, I’ve seen the end of war in Iraq and the death of Osama Bin Laden. The exact opposite reaction that night there was a celebration on campus and yet for 9/11 there was a protest in support of the terrorists saying that America brought this on itself and this is all our fault you know we deserve this. I was like wow what a difference and that’s ten years later, what a difference ten years makes. I’m sure it’s a lot to do with University leadership and also the…I’ve got to admit I think the student body is a little smarter than it used to be. When I came here the first time they were a little stuck on themselves; now it seems they’re more open and actually interested in questioning things. It’s a great place and I’m really glad I chose to come back here. Brindley Polk: Good. Do you have any future plans? You know, more military service maybe? Rob Helton: No more military service. I am happy and my wife and I are going to be content raising a family down in Burk county and hopefully in the next year and a half, two years because there’s always more school and more dues to be paid I will be a police officer somewhere down in that area Hickory, Morganton, Lenoir somebody that will take me. If they think that I’m qualified enough. I did have three years of MP time and I was a sergeant for that…that’s my plans basically live life work to support my farming habit have a little couple of cows a couple of kids and live a happy life. Brindley Polk: In that order cows then kids. Rob Helton: Pretty much you’ve got to get the cows before the kids. Brindley Polk: Well, is there anything you would like to cover in this interview? Rob Helton: …There were a lot of things, but there’s one particular story I just want to share. Because there are a lot of guys that came back with really negative impressions of the Iraqi’s and I did not actually. You have to understand that there’s a word not popular in America called peasant, they still exist. These are people who have no education no real future but their just filling their spot in society over there. They’re not the majority of the population and I met some really fantastic people. There were two in particular Major Quessey and Colonel Salman, thankfully I don’t know their first names. Just a little explanation of why I felt so great about the Iraqi’s and why I felt there was a future for the country of Iraq. Major Quessey was actually, he’s called a Sayyid he’s a direct descendent to Muhammad through his daughter Fatima. This generates a lot of respect from the locals, wherever he went he was well respected. He was also, �he was a very handsome man he the perfect mustache, the perfect hair all the time. Very French, his mannerisms because he was educated in France so he had this curious way of holding a cigarette, crossing his legs he’s obviously different from everybody else. He was incredibly educated incredibly just…like I said he’s like a movie star. We weren’t really sure about him at first because it’s like wow how does this guy, how’s he really going to stack up in this? Well in March of 2008 Letada Alsod already cleared an uprising and it was against the Iraqi forces. The local affiliate was called Jay Shalimadi, Jam is what we revered to them as. They were to attack all Iraqi security forces. Eventually what ends up happening is they attack our Iraqi police that we’ve been training. This is the reason that I had changed jobs was to train the Iraqi police. I took it very seriously I was very happy to train them. Yes, you did not turn your back but at the same time like with the officers we sat down we drank tea we talked we became friends, and I do mean friends I trusted these men well some of them. Major Quessey was one of them. We get a call one day that there’s been a patrol ambushed two pickup trucks full of IPs had been attacked with an IED. Most of them were down and there’s a serious fire fight in our town. The town is called Tunis, it was…it had a different name before the war but it was changed for some reason. Just a little town on ASR Jackson that four lane highway that runs up to Baghdad, it’s like 40 kilometers straight south of Baghdad. Nothing really to it just the highway runs through and there’s a technical university there it was kind of operational. Well anyway, we get all of our equipment together we go rolling out there and we get to the station and the IPs tell us that Major Quessey and all the officers and all the IPs are down at the end of town and so we get back in the trucks and we go flying to the traffic circle in the middle of town, we go around it the wrong way we get on the highway an we’re headed south. I’m in the lead truck and I can see something flashing in the distance and I’m like what is that? It’s like a little camera flash ping, ping. As we get closer I realize that it is a chrome plated AK-47 on some body’s shoulder and there’s only one person that has one around there and that’s Major Quessey. He is standing, as we get closer this al resolves itself, he is standing in the center of a highway open to everything. There are bullets flying by, there are rockets being fired at him. He is standing out there with his chrome plated AK-47 on his shoulder, a pair of aviator sunglass, and what we call a chicken vest. It’s not bullet proof it’s not proof against anything but he’s got it on. He is standing out there directing his IP’s standing as tall and proud as anything, not afraid in the least not slowing down for anybody. When we pull up the insurgents all stop firing and as it turns out their orders were in this up rising to not engage with us to not engage with the United States forces or I’m sorry coalition forces we weren’t American forces at that point. In any case, they were only to engage the Iraqi’s so they stop firing and they all fun away. We’re still concerned that he’s going to get shot so we’re running out there like sir Major Quessey you’ve got to get down please, you’ve got to come over here and take cover. You know, this is all going through and interpreter and he says no my friends I’ll be fine, I’ll be fine they won’t shoot me. I was like well it looks like they were doing a pretty good job at trying and you know you could put him in a crowd of Iraqi’s and he’d stand out anyway he’s also fairly tall. He’s standing in the middle of a highway with a flashy rifle and big sunglasses, yeah he stands out but he was so brave and so courageous, so committed. He loved his country dearly. I’m sure with his education he could have gone somewhere else but he chose to stay and he had a beautiful family. Eventually he was promoted and moved away from our station which is good for him, he got promoted. He had also once been personally decorated by Saddam they had a picture of that, he’s all pale faced and he looked really scared. Saddam is shaking his hand looking all happy and it’s because he got injured during a raid during the Saddam period. He was…what did he do, o yeah he busted up a car �hijacking ring basically single handedly basically it was a funny story but we don’t have time for that I guess. In any case we got our new commander Colonel Salman. The only thing that we were told about this man was that he was getting out of prison. So we’re like well we’re getting an IP commander who’s getting out of prison this is wonderful. Well, he shows up and he’s this really happy guy. He’s a pretty big guy and he’s always smiling and he’s like my friends, my friends and he actually I think he understood English fairly well because there were times that our interpreter would not have time to explain what we were talking about and he would just say something in Arabic. He couldn’t speak it but he could understand what we were saying. He was a former intelligence officer in the Iraqi army. He was in the invasion of Kuwait, he’d experienced American fire power first hand but he didn’t hold a grudge so pretty, pretty good guy. We had to get him to explain to us why he’d been to prison and he says that’s not really for me to tell you so we had to go down to see the district commander who explained that Colonel Salman is so committed to his job and he’s the best IP commander you will ever meet. Really why is that? He explains in 2004 that Colonel Salman was actually working with us, with the American forces and he was not scared of the insurgents and they kept threatening him. They finally executed his son to discourage him and he would not quit. What he does instead, and I don’t know how this relates or how it fits together exactly but this is just what the district commander told us that Colonel Salman had been trying to prosecute this local shake that was really involved in the insurgency but he was also really wealthy and politically connected so no one would touch him. I was like wow it’s like the mob. Well, he got fed up with the process and so he went to the market one day where he knew the shake would be and he pulled out his pistol and killed him. That was…and he surrendered immediately thereafter to be tried and put in prison so he was. Under their laws, under their legal system after a certain amount of time I guess the family can forgive you. If they do then you’ve committed no more crime and you’re released so they forgave him after a year and he was sent to us at the station in Tunis. We realized that he had no fear and that he would do his job and a couple of months later, and he was absolutely outstanding he was very tough but also very fair with his IPs. He brought a more militant stance to it and expected them to, for instance when they report to him in the American military you salute your officers and their military you salute as well but it’s more of a flat you put the back of your fingers against your forehead thing but they also do this little weird hop and stomp. There’s no other way to describe it they kind of hop off of both feet, they stomp the left on then the right one in sequence. It’s really funny looking but he required them to do it and normally they didn’t have to so he was very serious. A few months into him being there, one morning he’s not at the station and he’s supposed to be. He’s never late, he’s never called in sick he’s a diabetic even and he doesn’t call in sick. We were sitting here kind of morose because we’re like wow he’s dead, we know he’s dead he has to be dead he wouldn’t be late otherwise. Well, we were wrong. Three hours later he walked in all smiles my friends, my friends and he offers us some baklava which is this nice little dessert. He offers to buy us lunch, I’m so sorry I’m late you know and the interpreter is having a hard time keeping up with him. Finally, he’s like I’m so sorry I must explain why I was late and he said this morning I go out to get into my car, he drove himself around. Most of them had bodyguards and escorts and they needed them. Colonel Salmam did not need them apparently but he goes out to get in his car and he realizes there is a bomb under his car so most people in America we would call in and be like hey my tires flat I can’t make it today. No, he goes inside he calls an Iraqi EOD team they come out disarm the bomb. As soon as it’s taken away he gets in his car and he comes to work. He was that committed. �Brindley Polk: Wow. Rob Helton: No fear, he went out that day with us and did a walking patrol around town which was highly unusual for officers to do, Iraqi officers. He loved his job he loved his profession. Amazingly that station was the only was considered tier one station in the entire babel province. Babel province was considered the key to Iraq and this station was considered self-sustaining by the we left. That had some, a lot of it had to do with our troops. My squad worked very hard with that station, the other squads looked very hard with the other stations. A lot of long hours a lot of training from our soldiers but it also had to do with Colonel Salmam and that particular station because he you know made them a tight knit group. They day that we realized that we were succeeding, and that was one of the big clues in Iraq. You rarely realized you were succeeding in anything. The day we realized we had succeeded was our latest MP battalion commander was rolling in they were like a revolving door we got new commanders all the time that’d be a long explanation but he rolled through and he congratulated my squad leader when he got to the FOB because our IPs had what’s called muzzle awareness. They had their weapons pointed at the ground and their fingers off the trigger. Every other Iraqi army and police…you would never see, would carry it either across their chest with the muzzle pointing at everybody to their left or their right depending on which hand they used or they carried it up on their shoulder so the muzzle was usually pointed at somebody’s head behind them. Their finger was always on the trigger and because of the rudimentary nature of the safety the weapon was usually on fire and I have actually seen them shoot themselves in the foot, shoot another… my first tour we worked with the Iraqi army some and we saw them shoot each other in the leg by accident, all of it’s an accident. He was, this new Colonel was really impressed that our IPs out of the thousands that he’s seen across Iraq have achieved muzzle awareness and that’s exactly what he said. He’s like you guys have done such hard work. Hard work well, yelling at them every day to stop pointing their weapons at us. That is part of it but also teaching them that this is the smart way to do it because what if your family is walking by another IP do you want him pointing his weapon at your family? No, you learn to integrate the lessons to them. It’s also a matter of respect. In fifteen months my squad was never once touched. When Hackimer, Knapp, and Meyer were hit we had just rolled through that checkpoint literally five minutes before that so the bomb was already there. My commander to this day probably convinced it wasn’t there but it was, it had to be and they didn’t touch us. There was a lethal attack one day in our town and we had just left, we had rolled by the same stretch of road and no one had touched us. There were small arms incidents where another patrol that was right in front of us would get lit up or behind us but never once did they touch our squad. It’s not because we were soft on them it’s not because we didn’t do our jobs I’m convinced to this day it’s because we showed respect to the local people. That was a big thing to me and my first patrol outside the wire my first day in my second tour or the first patrol I actually did with my soldiers. I unloaded my gunners machine gun when we got to the station because he’d been pointing it at people till we got there and that’s what he’d been trained to do. He had been brought over to my team after like two weeks before we deployed so I hadn’t had a chance to train him in how I wanted him to do the job. He’d been trained to point his weapon at anybody who got to close and this including cars well there are thousands of cars in Iraq. They go see their grandma’s they go to the market they go for a drive. They do everything that we do and he was pointing his weapon at them scaring the living daylights out of them. We got to the station and the first thing I do was climb up on top of the truck and took his rounds out of his weapon and he’s looking at me like I’ve shot his dog or something and he’s like sergeant what am I going to do if they attack us? You put them back in you know it’s not �hard it’s not complicated but until you can show me that you’re not going to shoot and innocent person you’re not getting them back and so we rolled all the way back to the FOB like that several hours later. The next day I was tempted to not even let him put them in again but I was overruled on that but it was one way to teach a lesson and he never once fired a shot. No one, not one of my soldiers ever fired a shot. I did not even so much as point my weapon at anyone for 15 months. There were times that I would have been justified but I had learned that lesson my first tour and I chose to verbally or you know make little hand signs to basically play the situation out non- violently and it worked out, I’m fortunate that it worked out in my favor. It was a definite slave in my conscious I guess, I call it my therapy tour but I got to do the right thing for 15 months and it was awesome and I got to do a lot of cool things my first tour. I got to do air assault missions that was cool. There’s nothing greater than the feeling of getting on a helicopter and flying off into the dark to land on top of some little terrorists stronghold which it turns out none of them were. It was exciting and it was cool to be young and the tip of the spear and it’s a great guy like all of these combat vets, it was great. In the end we didn’t accomplish anything that was the big lesson that I took from the war. That killing insurgents detaining them or whatever it doesn’t accomplish anything. The only thing that ever worked was working with the locals respecting the locals and when we did that and did it right, this will be the last, the last one I promise. Brindley Polk: OK. Rob Helton: One of my great, the most fulfilling experience of my life. My squad leader went on leave in December of 2008 so I was left in charge. And this was… well it was going to be boring because we weren’t really going to be doing anything. There was no big training to do, we were just going to do routine training the entire month he was gone. If you’re on a 15 month tour you’ve got a lot of leave. I had been looking forward to it for months because I get to do things the way I want to so the first day I said hey this is what we’re going to do while he’s gone and it wasn’t different from what he did it was just more organized. That’s a different story. Day two that he’s gone I get the call that the new brigade in town, there’s this new unit had taken over their called land owners. MPs don’t own the area they don’t responsible for all the security we’re responsible for the Iraqi police and training them. We operate within the land owners area but we aren’t responsible for all of it. Well, this new brigade came in and they had this hard charging attitude like a bunch of dummies, like a bunch of cowboys actually. They managed to shoot the district attorney. He’s not called the district attorney in Iraq but whatever the equivalent is and I’m told, the lieutenant is standing there telling me this like he’s ordering popcorn or something and he’s like O and he’s a personal friend of Colonel Salman or something so take your squad out there right now and make sure Colonel Salman is still with us and find out what you can. He always said the dumbest things he goes tootles and he walks away and I’m like sweet Jesus did he just say all of that to me? They shot the district attorney? This is going to be a nightmare you know the whole area is going to be up in an up roar. Well, I get the squad together and we roll out there and this is way off schedule I mean this is like we’ve already done our patrol that day, we did some training that day and now we’re rolling out to what I’m assuming is about to be like hell on earth. We get to the station and Colonel Salman’s actually very calm, very polite and explains to me that the district attorney he’s already talked to the man’s wife. They were personal friends sure enough and she told him that that day the doctor had given him the final prognosis of his…it wasn’t type two diabetes it was something else but basically he’d been given a death sentence at least in their medical system did their best. He decided instead of �being a burden on his family he was going to commit basically death by soldier so he called everybody in his family and that’s a lot of calls, and he called all of them. He told them he loved them and how much you know don’t worry about him and the funny thing in their society they didn’t question this at all apparently that was some of the statements that we got later. Then he went to a place where he knew American patrol would pass by and we were always armed we have to be its not that at that point that we felt the need to be it’s just that it’s best to be prepared. Well, the particular intersection he chose to do this at was within 150 meters of the FOB, you could literally see the walls from where he was and its what was a truck washing, a gravel washing station and these trucks full of gravel would pull up and they would just run water over the gravel for some reason. He pulls up next to that and he waits for the first patrol to go by which happens to be what’s called a log pack it’s a big supply convoy and he opens fire. The funny thing is that you wouldn’t have known it but you don’t realize this when you’re being shot at but he wasn’t actually aiming at them. All of the bullet holes were in the concrete, the asphalt. He was intentionally aiming away from them but he knew they would shoot back. Now they didn’t do a very good job. The fist truck the weapon jammed they didn’t get a shot off, the second truck same story, third truck got a shot off didn’t hit anything, the fourth truck finally gets one round off and their gun jams because it’s not been cleaned and that one shot killed him. By the time that we got out to the station, and understand this is only been like two to three hours, our IPs had already taken the digital camera that they had been issued by the army and they’d already gone out and done a full investigation. They collected every shell casing; they had put gloves on and collected the man’s weapon. They’d even collected a few of casings from our weapons well that stupid brigade anyway. They collected them off the side of the road, they collected all of the forensic evidence and they taken crime scene photos they had taped it off, they had gotten lists of names of interviews, interviewed everybody that witnessed it and anybody that wasn’t there that had witnessed it they went and found them and interviewed them. They coordinated all of this by themselves. Now we had been training them for a year at this point but they did all of this. I wish I could remember that major’s name but we called him snoopy because he looked like snoopy, major snoopy basically. He was in charge of it and everybody when they met him thought he was kind of you know not too sure how smart he was, he was extremely intelligent but you had to get past the fact that yes he is Iraqi he doesn’t speak English big deal. You know, nobody over here does well almost nobody if they do we employ them to an interpreter but he’s actually really intelligent he was a good police officer. He took the training that we’d been giving him for a year and the equipment and he conducted a full forensic investigation and determined that the Americans were not at all at fault. Which I think everybody was kind of scared that they were going to find that we were and it’s going to get in the newspaper and everything else. Again, we it was not we because we weren’t part of those idiots. They made us stand in a formation Christmas Eve, or New Years Eve and lit us all up and it was horrible. There’s a whole different story about how stupid they were. That was routine for them but they weren’t at fault. The funny thing is I had to go through my chain of command to try to request their statements, their witness statements. They had all their soldiers fill on out and essentially they blocked me, they wouldn’t allow me to have any of the statements but they told me, they told my platoon sergeant actually at the it was one of the information meetings that senior people have that tell your sergeant to get all of the Iraqi evidences get copies of it at the very least, originals if you can and bring it back here to the FOB for our investigators. My sergeant came and told me this, platoon sergeant, and Sergeant Moore and I had had a tricky relationship till I got to be the squad leader for a month and then he loved me because I worked �really hard at it because I’d been wanting to do it for so long and I had an objective to work out. He and I sat down and I was like sergeant honestly I can’t go tell them that because our own people won’t give me the witness statements that our troops provided and he’s like you know you’re absolutely right and so we fought this tug of war with this Brigade which the thing is we didn’t have a leg to stand on we didn’t have anybody high enough up to be like hey brigade commander you will turn over this information because he’s a colonel, a full bird colonel and the most we could muster was a lieutenant colonel. Now, he should have done it out of professional courtesy. He at the very least could have gone out to the station it was like if you got up on the highest point on our police station you could vaguely make out the line of walls of our FOB it’s pretty close. If he’d really wanted to he could have gotten a helicopter and flown out there but that’s just to me the example of why we ended up I say losing the war. It was a lot of it had to do with attitudes people that weren’t willing to look at the Iraqi’s as people that weren’t willing to treat them with respect. When the first…well when a field grade officer can just totally ignore common courtesy of what should be his equivalent field grade officer out here who’s trying to conduct a professional investigation and this is our future in this country is to build up the Iraqi police. There’s an old quote about something about democracy can’t exist in a country policed by its army. I’m sure I’m miss quoting it terribly but that’s the basic idea. Building their police was the future and he wasn’t committed to this he was committed to combat operations and this is in 2008, actually 2009 at this point early 2009 and he’s not with the program because he wants his soldiers to have combat experience he wants to be a combat commander. He doesn’t want to conduct a counter insurgency where you build up the local forces so you can get yourself out. That’s why we lost Iraq, it’s not because of a basically some wild scheme to kill innocent civilians as again that ethics professor philosophy professor said in 2001 or 2002. It’s because people in the positions that they’re in most a lot of field grad positions basically didn’t want to commit to the mission that they had they wanted the mission they wanted or they wanted to make the mission that they desired therefore they went to combat. That’s just my final thought there’s a lot more and we would be here for hours I’m sorry I’ve taken so much time as it is. Brindley Polk: No, no it’s perfectly fine. Thank you so much for doing the interview. Rob Helton: Thank you for interviewing me. Brindley Polk: It was a lot of good information. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/01960216be4ee229714ccaa206000404.mp3 03837348455d7a41f98649aa039deee5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Helton, Robert Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Polk, Brindley Interview Date 10/2/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:39:12 File name 2013_063_Helton, Robert 2013_063_Helton_Robert_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Helton, 2 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Polk, Brindley Helton, Robert Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 25 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Helton, Robert Iraq War, 2003-2011 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Rob Helton gives a detailed account of his experience in the military for 6 years 2003-2009. He was deployed to Baghdad and describes it as an interesting place, a mix between the ancient and the modern. He shares stories about his time abroad, his basic training in Fort Knox, and his experience returning to civilian life in 2010. army ASU Baghdad Iraq baptism by fire Fort Knox Major Quessey Sargeant Phelps https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/5fa78b194eb186e0d7915d7ad08b4a56.pdf 24c4f4840dde6ba4c4f7bf0cd97d1c5f PDF Text Text Sterling Hardy IDS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Ok, First off who are you? Haston Gray Haymore Ok, and you are from Dobson? Yep, from Dobson We are doing this interview in his home in Dobson, North Carolina. Today is March 7th 2011. When were you born? January 3rd of 48'. Ok, ( ... )I am doing this interview as part of the United States Military History class under, Dr. Browning, Appalachian State University( ...) Ok, were you drafted or did you enlist? I was drafted. Ok, when were you drafted? It was 69', it was in April of 69' Ok. It was about twenty to twenty five drafted out of our county .every month. Ok, what branch of the service? Army. Army, Ok. Where did you do your basic training? Fort Bragg. What was that like? We'll it was not to pleasant, cause when you was drafted, you didn't want to be there, but, it was one of them things, it was on of those things, you know you had to do. Wasn't anything you �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 could do about it. We had to do it. And when we was drafted we went through the recruiting center in Charlotte. Right. I was drafted in the Army. We all or a big group of us sat in there, in chairs, in rows, sergeant came out said you, you, you, you four come on with me, you just joined the Marines. I was the fifth man. So I stayed in the Army. ( ... ) Now I know that Basic Training is pretty, pretty strenuous, is there anything that kind of sticks out to you about the training? Not, not really, they put you through each week with a different type training it was, I know the first few weeks they was alot, alot of running and exercising. Then, then things kind of backed off, then rifle range, different things like that, kind of backed of a little bit. Right. I pretty much know that the weather was insane .. The weather was hot in Sanford, Sanford was the hottest was always Fort Bragg, Fayetteville was always on the map was the hottest spot in North Carolina. Yeah. It was hot. ( ... ) How long were you in basic?( ... ) I think it was nine weeks. I know it kind of varies. Yeah, I think it was nine weeks.( ... ) Now once you completed basic where did they ... Once we completed basic we, I was sent to Fort Belvoir, Virginia, that's the outskirts of Washington, D.C. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Ok. I was, I got the, they call it aMOS, my job, the job was Generator Repairs. We stayed in Fort Belvoir for about, that school lasted, two months. Two to Three Months, Generator Repairs, showed us all how to operate generators, repair them. ( .. ) Then we was held over there, we all knowed we was going to Vietnam. But they was a few that didn't. But, we was all prepared for it and they held us there for, for probably two months deciding on when we was going to get, just a doing chores, duties just waiting on to get our orders to go. And, when did you get your orders fmally? Oh, I don't know, I don't know the dates of it, but, I know I was in the military from 69' into 70'. Then I got my orders to go, then the orders was for twelve months. Right You had to go for twelve months. ( ..) Yeah and I went to Benewah, Vietnam stayed there. And everything was going pretty good there and I had opportunity, now I was justa I was justa, in for two years( .. ) I just in for two years, And I had the opportunity to stay forty-four extra days, cause when you left Vietnam, you had five months or less left they wouldn 't send you anywhere else, they would just send you on home. So I was one of the few lucky ones. I stayed in the military for nineteen months. Just long enough .. Just long enough to get my, they would not I was there for five months they would not send me know where else. So I, I was lucky enough got extended over there for forty four days. Ok. Now what was the area in Vietnam like that you were in? I was on a Aviation unit. Like I said I was supposed to have been a generator operator. When you go over there, you do what they tell you to do. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Right. It didn't, that didn't mean nothing. I was from a we'll maybe operating a generator, refueling helicopters, and down to flying door gunners. You name it, we done it. You have a job title but, that don't mean nothing. Right. The United States Military basically says you know we need, so many guys for this and ... It don't make know difference what you was trained for you was there. Now that must have been pretty interesting being a chopper gunner what was that like? We'll you was setting a chopper from a hundred feet in the air to five thousand feet in the air. You had your legs swinging out behind a M-60. And it it it was it was interesting. I'm sure you did a variety of things but, what was the primary purpose? Our primary operate, was suppose to be operating a generator. But, really I did more refueling helicopters than anything else. Right. When you actually went up in the chopper what did you usually do, did you just patrol or support? We use thing what we did is carrying after they was a battles, things they would just go out and check. See what was, we was carrying the high ranking officers out. OhOk. The helicopters you got a pilot and copilot and a crew chief and door gunner. The crew chief and door gunner served the same purpose. The door gunner took care of when you came back in, door gunner took care of cleaning the weapons, make sure they had ammo. And the crew chief took care of the helicopter. The pilot, copilot they was gone, they was gone to the airconditioning. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Right. So we was left there to do the work and so actually the they was only four people on the helicopter. And we was carrying some of the high ranking officers out, couple of them. Doing like recon, post battle reports and everything. Yeah that was what we was doing. Just flying, Just flying, just checking, just checking on the just making reports on whats what was happening. Now, did you actually see any of the Viet-Cong or the North Vietnamese Army or ... Oh yeah, oh yeah everybody did oh yeah. Did you actually see combat with those troops? Not that much. We kinda stayed on the backside, we didn't see that much of it. Right.( ... ) Actually our unit what our unit done we took the Vietnamese soldiers out early in the morning let them do the combat then we'll go back and pick'em up. Thats actually what our job was. Right. What did you think ofthe South Vietnamese, did you think they were capable soldiers just like me or ... what? No, no, no, no, no no, they wundn't. They was smart people now, they was smart. They could take almost nothing and make things out of it. ( .. ) So .. We's throw away enough stuffthey can make they can make a, they can build anything out of it. Right. And, really, and I guess the reason the United States really wanted them to go was because you know it was their own backyard, they know the terrain ... We'll Vietnamese, North Vietnamese moved in took over the South Vietnamese just like the the Iraq moved in Kuwait. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Right. And thats what happened there we was moving the North Vietnamese back to the North.( .. ) Actually we was helping the South Vietnamese. Did you think that was a good purpose for you to be there? A waste of taxpayers money all the lives everybody, everybody will agree with me that it was a waste of taxpayers money. Now as a just a soldier did you think you know that you were doing good, doing a good service for the country or did you think ... No, no. We were not doing nothing for the United States we all was there cause we was told to be to go there. Right. Even your top ranking officers and everybody. We just had orders to go there. I suppose it was a big part of a fear of communism, expanding you know really the reason we were there, because the North Vietnamese were communist and they were backed by the Soviet Union and we did'nt want them to control South Vietnam, which was you know I guess democratic. We'll thats truth. When one, When one country starts taking over another country and start running it the way they want to thats true, thats why we was wanting to get the South Vietnamese back where they belong. Did the South Vietnamese people were they happy to see you there or.. Oh yeah, oh yeah they they was they was Where there, did you get alot of support from the civilians did ... Oh yeah, we did we did actually we had civilians help us on base, they come on base and help us �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Ok, well lets see, were there any interactions between you and the South Vietnamese that really stood out did you see them do something or anything that really jumps out in your memory. No, the South Vietnamese they was a, they was quiet and they was calm, they was no way like the American people. Right. They was no comparison, they's laid back. No hurry. Theysjust wundn't no way like them, you can't compare them to the United States. Right. We all theys alot of difference there. The South Vietnamese they was good people now, they wouldn't do anything to harm us. We'll thats good. ( ..)I know theres alot of Viet, soldiers that served in that war really complained about having to deal with the Viet-cong which, you know were civilians but they would really strike at US forces and South Vietnamese forces You were talk the Viet-cong that was more talking about the North Vietnamese. Right. What was hard now it was hard determining .. . Right. The North from South Cause they .. Thats where your hardest part is you didn't know they was a north you did know they was north you didn't know they was south. You had to be careful. Look the same, spoke them same language ... Look, look a thats right, same langauge all looked the same.( .. ) �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 So while you were there what was you know the food like? Were you we'll supplied, did you ... Oh yeah, the military, military they keep you supplied first class. We We, the food was right theys ok. That wasn't a problem. We'll that was good. Yeah Yeah, we was definitely we'll supplied now.( .. ) Did you get you know any leaves you know R and R at any point and time. Yeah a I went to a a Taipei, Taiwan for a week. Ok. That was a, I know you've seen alot of a stuff you by here made in Taiwan. Right. I was there for a week. Taiwan is a nice little country now. Ok. It was it was interesting. Where in Taiwan were you at? Taipei, Taipei, Taiwan. I'm not familiar with that country is that... I'm not either. Was that on the ... I was, I was there for a week Was that on the coast or.. It, It is on a coast. Yeah. So, spend alot of time at the beach? No, No, I actually never did see the beach. Actually where we was at was in the mountains. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Ok. Taipei, it was a little city called Taipei. We'll what did you do while you were there in the city? Party, what else everybody everybody done that. We'll we did alot of site seeing. They was alot to see in the mountains there and they had alot of lot a they had alot of tourist there, actually it was the military. And that was one a, when you go on they call it Rand R you had several places you could pick from. That was one of them. And they was setup for the American troops to come in and they had alot sight seeing. We'll thats good. We'll what did you do to you know keep in touch with your family back here? Wrote letters, I tried to write at least every other day. Right. And I'm sure that they wrote often as well. Oh yeah, oh yeah, they, family was we'll supportive and we write when we would write home, we'd take the envelope just write up in the the a right-hand comer, where we'd put a stamp we'd write in free. We didn ' t have to buy stamps, just write in free and .. We'll thats good. And, of course they'd see that the letters got delivered. We'll did you receive any like a care packages from home? Yeah, we, I's we's always constantly getting something from home. That was a real treat, when when, you get a package especially Christmas. You, You, You, get some cookies or something or other something baked from home. And wrap it, where it could be shipped it was that was different. That was a real treat. We'll thats good, thats good. Did you see any soldiers that say didn't you know receive anything from home, that were you know kind of over there on their own. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 The, yeah you'd we'd see some yeah, they was always some around that didn't a really didn't hardly get any letters or anything. Yes it was kind of kind of heartbreaking to see that but( .. ) We'll, I know that the military trys to keep troops entertained, try to keep them from being bored cause thats you know a big part of being on duty some times, when your not fighting its just kind of monotonous. Did you see you know say the USO or other. .. Yeah, bout six weeks or two months after I was there, before I left here I went to a, I'm a race fan , I went to Charlotte Motor Speedway, I think it was a the summer race. The world 600 largest race and during that race they was doing some filming. I think it was one of Burt Reynolds movies. I can't think of the name of that movie, Speedway I think, is the name is the name of the movie. I believe it was and actually they was filming some during the race and before the race started they had some a cars on the track and with the crowds there they was filming it. Right. And the biggest portion of that movie was filmed at Charlotte. And I was there at the race track and here I go to Vietnam bout a month, six six weeks, no month two months after I was there they got that movie over there and I couldn't believe it. I said I was there just a few months ago. That, That was a great feeling. We's just sitting outside and the had a movie projector setting up against a building, sitting out there on the ground watching a movie. But, it still was a movie sitting on the ground didn ' t make no difference where you was sitting at still a movie. Yeah, Yeah, how often did you get to see a film? Once in a while they, they would get one in probably about every month. Ok. I mean thats, thats a real treat. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Right. We'll did ... Went down to, we's in a, sitting in a little bar, Saigon, Saigon is a large city. Saigon is a huge city, but the city you, you, wouldn't see no tall sky scrapers, like you would here. Right. Largest building you'd see there wouldn't be over four or five stories high. And we's sitting at the USO club and this lady come down and said, "the, oversees line is open, anybody wants to use it. They's about four of us jumped up, "Yeah." So we talk and, oversees line was open so we called home. And I talked a pretty good while, I know at the time momma and daddy said the power or the phone bill for that one call was seventy some dollars. Anything in nineteen seventy that was I don't know how long I's talking but, we took advantage of it. Yeah, why not?( ... ) Did you make any, you know, friends with your fellow soldiers? Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah we did everybody was everybody on base was close. Everybody was, cause we all was there for the same purpose. They's one guy l's real close with I met, once I left I didn't even see him. Right. He was New Jerseyan. But, there was one guy from Concord, he come up and seen me couple times, since then after we's home. We'll were those two guys basically your closest friends over there or.... No, I tell you what no we all was close. So it didn't matter ... It don't matter, everybody was close ... Ok. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 And nobody, nobody fussed and argued. They didn't, that many, that many people together, nobody, bickered nobody, fussed, nobody argued. We was there for a job and none of us wanted to be there but, we was there and had to make the best of it. ( ...) Did you keep like, a diary or anything? No, no no no I don't think, I won't say nobody did .. Yeah. I real dare say nobody did. Kind of an unusual thing ... I made alot of pictures and the pictures only thing we can find was, film. I carried one of them old instamatic camera's in my pocket bout' wore it out. I carried one of them things in my pocket and only film I could buy was slides. Right. I had put on the slides, and some of the kids got them and tore them apart, I don't know, probably have them refurbished. I don't know where they at now. Pictures I didn't care nothing about. Yeah.( ... ) Lets see, has anything else that you would like to say about you experience in Vietnam? No, no it, it, it was, it was a real experience. Its, its something, I wouldn't take nothing for and nobody, nobody round here, people here in the United States, never been there they just wundn't believe it. Right. It, it it justa, you wouldn't believe its on Earth, way the people lived, you you just wouldn't believe it. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 We'll I, the only thing I've seen, is I've seen you know pictures in books and the occasional film, I have no way of knowing what it was like ... All the pictures, films you see, some of them is close to it, none of them, none of them is exactly accurate. Right. We'll when did you finally, get sent home? It was in, I think it was in November. It was in November of70'. Cause I was only away one Christmas.( .. ) So I, I lucked out on time wise .. Right. So I stayed one year and fourty four days, over there. So, you basically got an honorable discharge .. Oh Yeah ... Cause you were done with the service .. Oh yeah, when we went in to basic training in Fort Bragg, course they's a big group of us we talking about thousands. Right. We all, about the second day there, all they did no training, they's doing testing, they's testing see how, see what we knowed. Thats what they was doing, they was testing us. The following day they called us out by groups. This, this is actually what they done now, they was calling us out by groups, like, twenty-five thirty to a group. They was telling us, you scored better then anybody here. You got the top score. And all these thousand's peoples here you got the top score. And you can go anywhere you want to in the United States. Will send you anywhere you want to go, but, we got to get you signed up for another year. You wouldn't believe the people signing up. I said, I know what this is about, nope I didn't. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 So .. And those people signed up for another year and they got sent where they wanted to go for one year. Got that one year up, they went to Vietnam. Bet that makes people upset. Oh yeah, oh yeah they was upset. This one little guy came in Vietnam over there he was all upset, he was in Germany. Had it made in Germany, had his wife there, so as his years up, she went home, he went to Vietnam.( ... ) We'll when you carne back home, you know what was one of the first things that you did? I know there's, you've heard soldiers say you know the fust thing, I want to do when I get home is go do such and such or get something to eat that... That that that was, we'll you, you, you, always got your own places you like to eat at. All of you got things you want to do. Just, you want to go out and see, see the boys you used, to see everybody. Andjust get out and see what kind of changes is made in the country, but its just good to be home. I guarantee it. Did you go to school after you got home? No, no no ... Ok, so you went straight to work then ... I went and come back, I went went to work. And, I guess it was you and your daddy right? Yeah, yeah yeah we, we we's building houses. See it wundn't, it probably wundn't about two years after I was back we got married. Ok. See, I met Becky, at Fort Bragg ... �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Really? Basic Training. Yeah .. What was she doing there? She was down there visiting another guy from Mount Airy, her boyfriend at the time. Thats what, she was she was visiting him and thats where I met her at( ... ) We'll you know shortly there after lets see what four years or so the war ended did, how did you feel about that? I thought it was about time, about time bringing all them soldiers home. Shoulda ended a long time ago. Right. Like I say, I won't, everybody, everybody says that was useless ... Yeah ... All those lives lost, all the money we spent over there, I still think it was useless. Yeah it is hard to see what we you know gained from it, something thats tangible, you know something you can grab aholt of, you know say we did this, and we gained this from it you know. We'll this, the the war in Kuwait, now when Iraq, overrun Kuwait, now see we had alot of American people in Kuwait. I don't think we had anybody in Vietnam. I don't think so now. But, we had a good reason to protect Kuwait.. Right. So you thought that war more so than the one that you fought in was correct... �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Oh yeah, oh yeah, I really think we'll everybody right now thinks George Bush Sr. didn't finish his job. But, he done what he said he was going to do, get the Kuwait out of, or get Iraq out of Kuwait and he did. Right. So everybody, everybody agrees on that war, but, no Vietnam War I don't, I don't think find hardly nobody agree on we, we should of been there.( ... ) What do you think about the war that we are in now, or I guess you could say Wars? We'll I, I think thats something we don't have no choice, really I don't, I really think, I really think they jumped the gun a little bit to quick. Right. But, I believe it should have been, I don't think we, I, the war probably, it had to be done, but, I don't think, I really think, they ought to have settled it before we went over there. Start blowing the place up. Yeah, I should have been done through diplomacy ... Yeah, I, I, I think that should have been first, I really think, George Bush all he was after was Saddam Hussein. He was after. .. After Saddam ... After blood to really ... He was cause that man tried to kill his daddy, he tell, he said that on the news, so( ... ) We'll, we're almost finished here, I got just a few more questions. Did you join say a veteran's organization? No, no, no, thats no, when I got out of the military that was it. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 You wanted ... Nothing, to do with it, I had done my part, that was it. But, closer I get in the sixties, I'm we'll self-employed and self-insured and it was costing us a fortune, me and Becky both. It was costing us a fortune, insurance sales, bout three years ago, I was about, I was six .. Fifty eight or fifty nine I got on with the VA. Started going to the VA clinic where I could cancel my insurance. Right. That has saved me a ton of money. I'm in with the VA right now. And are you happy with ... Oh yeah, they'll treat you, they'll treat you good. Their real good to me. We'll thats good. Lets see ... ( .. .) We'll you said you'd seen a couple guys since then ... One of the guys he had married my first cousin, Bobby Duncan. He lived in Mount Airy. Yeah I've seen, me and him, he he came, he came and looked me up one day and we talked a little while. And, like I say he was married to my first cousin and recently he's passed away.( .. ) Is there any other people that you've ... Anybody else I've seen in Vietnam no. Right. No, No Lost Contact... Really when I left, I left and I think everybody felt the same way. Yeah, but, I'm pretty sure that your satisfied with the service that you gave and ... Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah I was I done, I done, what they sent me over there to do.( .. ) �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 We'll is there anything that you learned over there or saw over there that effected your civilian life in any way? Make you appreciate the United States more, it will, it will make you appreciate the United States. ( ... ) Oh, have you ever been to Washington and seen the Vietnam Veterans Memorial? Oh yes, oh yeah, I have ... I bet that was experience ... We'll now see I was a, they, when I was at Fort Belvoir for my training, theys really not a part of Washington D.C, I hadn't been through. At the time been through the White House. Becky and I got married we went to Washington D.C on our honeymoon. I got her picture standing under the breeze way of the front of the White House, where you see the cars pulls in .. Yeah. I got her picture standing out there, we's out there in front of it, and I made her picture in front of the White House. Been through part of the White House. The Capital Building, I don't think there is a corner in that building we hadn' t been through. We you off on the weekend, we toured Washington. We'll thats good. So they's not a part of Wash .. the Capital, I don't think not a corner we hadn't seen and they's been alot of changes made and we went up to, went up and seen the Vietnam Memorial. Yeah, and I tell you its something else to see. Yeah, thats something that I personally want to do is I want to go to Washington and I want to see you know not just the monument or the Capital and all that but, I want to see all the war memorials ... �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 We'll we've, we've seen it all but, Vietnam Memorial it just a just this wall with all these guys names on it. but, what gets you you look at all these names, you stand and look at them ... Yeah and they just go on and on ... Justa, just that many of them and the only one on that wall that I really know was Paul Mouse's son, Barry Mouse I think that was his name. Earl Mouse was the brother.. Right. I went to school with them, Wilkes County. And, I actually don't think you here from Surry County really nobody's name from Surry County is on that wall. I don't think now, it might be. Cause when you look the names up you look them up by the counties. Right. Under North Carolina you go down under the counties and thats the way you look the names up and they tell you where they at. But, I've not seen the WWII Monument which, they gonna, Veterans going up there now and seeing, I hadn't seen that. It wundn't built at the time. I think thats a great thing ... but, we went through the Washington Monument, Jefferson Monument, we we've seen it all. We'll thats good. And I think personally thats a good thing that the triad is doing is taking you know those North Carolina Veterans ... That is good thing, I highly support that, you know Candy our daughter went on one of those trips as a nurse. Yeah. She really enjoyed it. I'd like to volunteer to go myself when I get out of school. �Sterling Hardy HIS 3823 Dr. Browning March 14, 2011 Right. It would be, it would be a good thing. She really enjoyed it it was a stressful day, those people, those people got to be in pretty good health to make that trip. Yeah. Some of them in wheelchairs, some ofthem not, but thats, thats, thats, a good thing. Yeah. We'll is there anything that you'd like to add at all? No, you leave I'll probably think of something or other but, not right now, not right now. Alright, we'll I thank you and .. . I, I hope this, everything works out. Alright. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/cc6dd45e66960ce41289f32a7163ddd2.mp3 c26703b26d9d8994ac75814b3a66878d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Haymore, Haston Gray Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hardy, Sterling Interview Date 3/14/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:37:55 File name 2013_063_Haymore_Hasten_interview 2013_063_Haymore_HastonGray_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Haston Gray Haymore, 14 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hardy, Sterling Haymore, Haston Gray Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 20 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Haymore, Haston Gray Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Haston Gray Haymore is a veteran of the Vietnam War. He was deployed for one year and forty four days to Benewah, Vietnam, and worked alongside the South Vietnamese soldiers. He describes them as "good people" but very different from the Americans. Haymore states strongly his opinion that America should not have entered this war, that it was a useless endeavor and many lives were fruitlessly lost. army Benewah Vietnam Fort Bragg Haston Gray Haymore honorable discharge Viet-Cong https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0a55ed086ce545d8fce337b4ad4fe441.pdf 30940dfb4580bec433fb3e698d8ae303 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Frank Guy. March 8, 2010. Statesville, NC Will Dulin: We are at the Troutman and Associates Electrical Contractors Incorporated. My name is Will Dulin and I am interviewing Frank Guy for Dr. Judkin Browning's American Military History course at Appalachian State University. Where were you born and raised? Frank Guy: I was born in Statesville, North Carolina, Iredell County and I was raised here also, went to South Iredell High School and then was drafted into the Army. Dulin: Oh ok. I guess I should have started, when were you born? Guy: November 14, 1951. Dulin: Alright. And after high school, what did you do? Guy: I worked at a machine shop for approximately a year and then about 11 months after graduation I was drafted in to the U.S. Army. Dulin: Ok. So then you went into Vietnam? Guy: Right. I was sent to Fort Jackson for training ... basic training and also took my AIT ... advanced training ... AIT ... Advanced Individual Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And after that I was assigned to leave for Vietnam. Dulin: Ok. And what job were you assigned? Guy: I was in mortars .. .! was ... my MOS was 11C, which is a 81milimeter mortar. Dulin: Ok. And what was your rank starting in and out? Guy: I was of course I was an E1 when I went in and I achieved the rank of PVC and I was up for E4, but the orders never caught up with me before I was discharged. So I was discharged as a PFC ... Private First Class. Dulin: Oh ok. What about your boot camp training experience? How was that? Guy: That was at Fort Jackson. It was very hot, very arduous. Dulin: And then after that you were sent to Vietnam? Guy: I took advanced training at Fort Jackson also after boot camp, when I was assigned ... after boot camp you're assigned what you're going to do in the army, and that �was 11 ... They called it 11 Charlie, which was a 81 millimeter mortar, and I trained on it for 6 weeks, at Fort Jackson also. Then I was sent to Vietnam, after a leave at home. Dulin: What ... when you arrived in Vietnam ... What did you ... What were your first thoughts as far as that? Guy: My first thoughts was, Oh my God, I guess. [Dulin and Guy laugh] What have I got myself into. I stepped off the plane and it was like somebody throwing a very wet, hot, smelly blanket over ... over your whole being. It was extremely humid. I think the temperature was around 108 ... extremely humid, and the odor was almost ... overcame me. It was something I had never smelled before it was extremely offensive ... and ... first impression was not good. Dulin: Right. Lets see ... were you in any combat ... experiences. Guy: Yes. For the first three months, I was over there I was ... what they call, out in the bush. That was ... we would go out in a 12 man crew ... helicoptered out. .. choppered out, and ... we would land in a usually an abandoned rice patty, which was severed as the LZ ... your landing zone and .. .I was in ... one small fireflght and ... that would ... but I was in harm's way the whole ... for the first three or four ... well the whole time I was over there I was in harm's way, but the ftrst three ... three and a half months I was actually out on patrols and could've engaged the enemy at any time. Dulin: What ... do you have any memorable experiences ... that ... that stick out? Guy: Well yeah the memorable experience was on my like second mission out ... we were contacted by headquarters platoon, which was approximately a half a mile from our position. They said they were 3 Vietnamese, Vietcong ... headed down the creek toward us, and we set up a perimeter on that ... or line on that creek and as they approached, I was assistant gunner on the M60 machine gun, which meant I was laying in the only opening in the brush, and I held the ammunition up in my hands ... and when the ... the guy fired the ... our sergeant told us to just let the M60 ... mow them down more less is what he said. And when ... they pulled the trigger on the M60 machine gun it fired one round and jammed. And there I was laying in an opening ... and the Vietcong immediately swung around. I was the first one he seen, and my whole life flashed before my eyes as ... as .. .I just knew I was gonna die. And ... my buddy with opened up 3 M16s and mowed them down. We killed 2 of them and one of them run off and we never saw him again. Dulin: Right. Guy: That was my most memorable experience and my most terrifying experience all rolled into one. Dulin: And ... how ... how long were you over there? Guy: I was over there 8 and a half months. �Dulin: Eight and a half months? Guy: Mhmm. Dulin: Did you have any awards or medals or ... ? Guy: I got the Combat Infantry Badge, which ... cm ... which was in .. .isjust a letting you know that you were in combat. Dulin: Right. Guy: That's the Vietnam Campaign ribbon and that's ... that's what I got. Dulin: How did you stay in touch with your family while you were over there? Guy: By mail. Dulin: By mail? Guy: Mostly and ... we were ... when I was in the rear area ... sometimes I was allowed to call them ... made probably: .. probably a total of three phone calls· home. And of course there was 12 hours difference in the time so ... if I called them at noon it was midnight here. I found that out when I called in the afternoon from there and it was 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning here. Dulin: Right ... Did you ... were there ... were there any types of entertainment ... in Vietnam? Guy: Yes ... Very sparse ... very sparse. Some ofthe rear areas had ... EM clubs, which was the Enlisted Mens clubs, and they had ... they did their best to entertain us. They would have the Vietnamese locals had little rock bands. Dulin: Mhmm. Guy: You couldn't really understand what they were saying, but they made a noise and it was entertaining. We had ... when I was stationed in one place the Air Force Base was in close proximity and I enjoyed the chapel annex there. They had a nice chapel and they had a annex behind it, which was air conditioned ... had the pool tables and refreshments available and that was the ... the most enjoyable time I guess ... but that was ... that was short lived. Dulin: Did u keep any .. .like a personal diary or ... ? Guy: No I did not I regret that. I wish I hadda, but I did not. �Dulin: And do you remember ... when you were ... I guess when you were on the flight over back to the United States, as far as being discharged or ... being sent home. Do you remember that? Guy: I do. I remember it very vividly ... We left the Benwah air base and ... we left under small arms fue. Dulin: Mhmm. Guy: And the ... pilot. . .it was a commercial air liner. But I did not know a commercial air liner could do what it did .. .he ... he layed that thing over on its side and ... and ... pulled the nose up ... till it almost stalled ... and cause we were ... were under fue so. We left ... once we got the altitude I was very relieved. Dulin: Right. Guy: Very happy. Dulin: What were your ... I guess your parents or ... or siblings reactions when you came home? Guy: [Laughs] That's a funny story. I was ... as I said I didn't pull a full year. The tours then were a year and I come home in 8 and a half months and ... when I landed in . .. we ... we'd in processed out in Fort Dix, New Jersey and I did not know until that very moment that I would be getting out of the army. I figured I'd serve the rest of my 11 ... 10 and a half... II months in the United States .... and a guy looked at my ... looked at my records and he looked back up at me and he looked back down at records ... said I am not believing this ... this is a biggest drop out ofthe army, said by Guy you're going home ... [Laughs] And he ... then he asked me ifl wanted to ... keep processing out or ifl wanted to get a bunk for the night ... and this I'd already been up at that time for about three days without any sleep, and I said lets keep processing ... cause I was afraid they'd find out their mistake ... [Laughs] ... Dulin: Mhmm Guy: ... and I'd be reassigned to a base here in the United States so .. .I was very surprised. I called home, told my daddy, and he didn't believe me. He thought I'd done something wrong, messed up ... Dulin: Mhmm. Guy: .. .I was getting kicked out of the army, not .. .trying to swear .. .I swore to him that it wasn't. He ... his reaction was ... my family was relief and jubilation. Dulin: Right. �Guy: Very Happy. Dulin: After .. . after that ... did you ... want tomake ... career out of the military? Guy: Absolutely not. Dulin: Not. Guy: [Laughs] No. On hindsight I wish maybe I hadda but .. .at that time in my life absolutely not. I was wantin to get home and get back on with my life. Dulin: Let' s see ... How .. .How did your service experience affect your view on the military or your life in general? Guy: . .. My .. .if affected my view on the military in a .. .I think a positive way. I know what at this time in my life I know what these soldiers are going through and all the conflicts around the world now .. . and it .. . it gave me a great appreciation for the military for ... for the fighting man and ... and it made my grow up. My .. .my military experience .. .I went in as a high school kid and I come out as a man. And .. .I do not regret it. I would do it again but .. . as I stated earlier, I was drafted: I didnot volunteer, but .. .I never had any thoughts other than to go and serve my country and do it and do it to the best of my ability. Dulin: Is there anything else you would like to say? Guy: .. .Just that .. .I' m proud of my service. I'm proud I did it. I was drafted... but I fulfilled my service and as I said I would do it again. And . . .I just .. .it .. .it bothers me when . .. bothered me greatly that we were not welcomed home with open arms. Vietnam era veterans are ...were looked down upon and that really bothered me a lot in my early years, but I've learned .. . and to .. .I've overcame that and ... the ROTC at West Iredell High School had ... had honored the veterans 2 or 3 years ago ... and that's the first time, after I returned home from Vietnam, that I received any thanks or any honor from any organization and that meant a lot to me. And .. .I just think the Vietnam veterans ... they ... they earned and need as much respect as any other veterans have .. .have been awarded and . .. the Vietnam Wall come through here. I went and seen it. The traveling wall. .. and it sent ... sent chills up my back. I seen some buddies names on there and I just feeLthat I'm one of the very very fortunate ones. I made it back with all my. parts and pieces in tact and the real heroes are the ones that didn' t return and gave their life and I just feel very thankful to God that 1.. .I returned in one piece. Dulin: Well thank you for the interview. Guy: Well you' re .welcome. Thank you for interviewing me. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/410fc99a45bea93058f7ebd1eb8369bd.mp3 e04f8171fffb03455b623d7b1199ea55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Guy, Frank Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Dulin, Will Interview Date 3/8/10 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:14:19 File name 2013_063_Guy_FrankW_interview 2013_063_Guy_Frank_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Guy, 8 March 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dulin, Will Guy, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Guy, Frank Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Frank Guy was drafted during the Vietnam War and served 8 and a half months. He was in direct combat and had a couple of near-death experiences. He got out of his service surprisingly early, and he was relieved and had no desire to stay in the military or make a career out of it. Despite that, he values his time in the military and says he would not trade the experience for anything. He wishes the Vietnam veterans had been welcomed more warmly when the returned to the States. Air Force Benwah Fort Jackson mortar Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/46401aa1b2f411e996a3a879512b26cb.pdf 480be3d941d9f7530e040f436b289783 PDF Text Text Spiker 1 Cody Spiker Browning His 3823 15 October 2012 Oral History Report: Richard Gilbert, Vietnam Veteran, Born in Appalachia, and Appalachian State University state graduate. My name is Cody Spiker, interviewing Richard Gilbert at 214 West Academy Street, his residence. [Cherryville, NC] Mr. Gilbert, when were you born? I was born March 27th, 1948. Where were you born at? I was born in Franklin NC, which was way up in the mountains up in the corner of the state. But I grew up in Lincoln County. Lincoln County, when did you move down to Lincolnton, or Lincoln County? Oh, probably when I started school, around First grade. You know, about seven, six or seven, something like that. I think I actually started second grade down here, so. We moved up on highway 27 out in the country. Okay, so your family is from the Appalachian Mountains actually? Yeah my mom was born in the mountains, my grandmother and grandfather yeah, basically homesteaders, so. Okay, one of the things that they are pushing for in this interview process is people from the Appalachian Mountains, (“Oh” -Gilbert) the Appalachian area, veterans form this area so that’s excellent. So, which war did you fight in? I fought in Vietnam. Yeah I went, I got in the army, let’s see, it would have been ’68. I think, and then I went to Vietnam in ’69. So, I went in in December, I went to Vietnam I December of ’68 and came back in December of ‘69. Ok, and where you a volunteer or were you a draftee? Well, I was a volunteer. It seemed like the thing to do at the time. I didn’t really support the war but I knew that needed a college education and I didn’t really have a way to pay for it. So, I saw that as a way of getting an education an you know, so, I enlisted for three years. �Spiker 2 Okay, so at the time that you enlisted where were you living at? I was living in Lincolnton and I was attending Lincolnton high school, and I was in my last year. And there were several of us who talked about it and decided we would go see a recruiter, and so we did. We all went in together; there was about, I don’t know, eight or ten of us. So you were about eighteen? … Somewhere along in there, it was just after highschool. What branch of service did you enter? Well, since I enlisting and I got the opportunity to pick, I had some choice and they told me what was open. Artillery, a couple things, communications, and military police and I decided that I would go military police. Sounded exciting. (Spiker chuckles and says, “MP’s lead the way.”) So you obviously enlisted into the Army? Right. Do you recall your first days of service? Like when you went to basic training? What was that like? Oh I remember the first day of training like it was imprinted in my brain, (Gilbert chuckles) It… we had about a week or so before we actually started basic they had us in a kind of holding pen, which was extremely boring, there was nothing to do except you know what freedom we had to go to the PX and eat. That was about it. So… when we were ready to start basic they put us on the bus and drove us over to our company and then I think you can imagine what happened after that. Hahahaha. It was in July at Fort Bragg and I think that was probably the hottest place on earth. And… it was a pretty miserable day. (Gilbert and Spiker Chuckle, “I can imagine.” -Spiker) Do you remember any of your instructors? Oh yes, lets see, there was… a Corporal Norris who had… he was an interesting character. He had been in the Army and… served and came back home and somehow or another he was in the reserves and didn’t attend the meetings and got re-drafted, (Chuckles) so they pulled him back in and they put him as… in our company as a trainer, as an instructor. …There was a couple of Drill Sergeants, you know I guess if I thought about it I could probably remember their names but I can’t right at the moment… it was interesting. I learned a lot about the Army. The Army travels on its stomach, the food was great. Everybody else complained, but I ate like a king… there was a fairness. They picked on everybody equally, (Chuckles) It was… interesting. I got kind of an insight into Army thinking which… and I respect that, I really do. I respect that. I didn’t like being in the Army but I did respect it. You know. …You mentioned earlier that you went to talk to a recruiter with a couple of fellows from your high school; did you end up going to basic training with those fellows As a matter of fact, we all went through basic training together… all in the same company except two of use. Two went into the company next door and the rest of us �Spiker 3 were in the same. I went in with a guy named Steve Rice from High Shoals and… Steve, Steve was tough guy. He was real tough; he was a street cred guy you know. He carried a hawkbill knife and (chuckling)... you didn’t mess with Steve. But… Steve and I were good friends… he and I, we stayed together all through basic training and.. we did some crazy things together… (“Do you want to explain some of those?” -Spiker, laughing) Oh, I’m glad to tell you one. We had to do; you know we had to spend the late afternoon and evening crawling under barbwire while they were shooting over the top of us in training. And they had these bunkers placed out there that had artillery simulators in them. And I went first, I was in a wave that went in and crawled under the barbwire, and then Steve came after me. I said Steve I’ll meet you at that center bunker and we’ll smoke a cigarette before we go on. And we did, and we both got chewed out (Chuckling) seriously chewed out. But we did, we had to hold it so nobody could see the light from the cigarette, we passed it back and forth. And the artillery simulators were going off and the ground was shaken, all the bullets going over head and all that stuff. It was pretty exciting. So after basic training you went to your MP school, where was that at? That was at Fort Gordon Georgia. (“Fort Gordan Georgia.”-Spiker) Yeah, and I did not know it snowed in Georgia, but it sure did. (Chuckling) Yeah, I graduated on November the 22nd because I remember it was… it got pretty cold down there… it definitely snowed. We had a bout three or four inches one day. That was fun, we got to drive jeeps in the snow, out through the hills. We did a night driving class… so we had to keep our interval and that kind of stuff. It had snowed on the ground so it was a lot brighter than the sergeant liked but…(chuckles)(“Definitely”-Spiker) It was good. So… when you finally graduated… MP school where did you go after that? Did you go directly to Vietnam or…? No, I got, I got leave. I came home…for… I got a, I think a thirty day leave. And then… I reported to… California… and I don’t remember all the details of this but… we had to stay in… It was right next to the Navy compound and… we could see the swabbies walking around. Course, you know how soldiers…they are… there is always enough competition to start something. So, there was always some yelling back and forth across the fence and… I thought California was kind of neat. I didn’t get to see a whole lot. There was a building there, it was building 590, which, you know, can you imagine… They must have shipped cow in it because this thing was huge. It was long and wide and all the bunks were three bunks high and close together. They were… sending a lot of people to Vietnam. Yeah… I stayed in building 590. That’s… kind of a famous landmark I guess if you look at the history books. Lets backtrack for a minute, when you said you had leave. Did you come back home? Did you have a significant other at the time? I had a girlfriend (“okay, what was her name?” –Spiker) Harriette, Harriette, yes Harriette Gurley. (“Where was she from?”- Spiker) Cherryville (pronounced Chur-aville) (“Cherryville, okay.” –Spiker)… Cherryville and Lincolnton were big rivals so… me dating Cherryville girls was… kind of a risky thing, but I found out that your �Spiker 4 Cherryville girls were very attractive. (“Yes sir.” –Spiker) …I dated here almost a year before I went to Vietnam and then several years afterwards and then we got married. Okay…When did you actually get boots on the ground in Vietnam? …It would have been December of 1968. I don’t remember the exact date, but… flew into… Long Binh and then flew from Long Binh to… Quin Yon and that’s where it think, if I remember correctly or company command headquarters was there and we had two platoons at… well that was battalion and then we had… another, our main area where I was, was in Pleiku. And.. Quin Yon is right on the coast, so I got to see the ocean. Of course, Cam Ranh Bay we did... in-country training. We did a couple weeks of in-country training in Cam Ranh Bay… Pretty place too. Nice white sands azure sea and sea snakes. (Chuckles, “Did you encounter any sea snakes?” –Spiker) No, no but they always warned us if you go out into the ocean be careful. (Still Chuckling) So, but it was a beautiful place I loved it. Vietnam was a beautiful country…. So, Cam Ranh Bay and the I went to Quin Yon; and from Quin Yon I went to Pleiku and that was where I was mainly stationed. We did have two other, little satellite outpost that we… we convoyed. So, we would convoy up to the pass from each side and then we would convoy back… and we would you know, switch of the convoys…. My route was up to the what was called the Mang Yang Pass, if I remember correctly…. It was real gentle going up on one side and then It was real steep going down the other side. And there were tanks parked all over the place on the down-side of that. …Know a days there is two different MP’s, you have the Combat MP and the Garrison MP. Was that still so back in Vietnam? Well no. I was a 95b10, hahaha, everybody was a 95b10, it was… completely different I guess from… what’s going on today. It was… our main focus was convoy escort and… then town patrol, where, you know, you… actually patrolled in the streets of… like Pleiku or An Khe or some place like that. And… that was pretty much it. There was none of the urban warfare kinda stuff that you guys have gone through, so…. Okay… while you were in Vietnam did you see any combat? …Ambush or two…I got blown out of bed one morning. That was exciting. A rocket landed between where I was and the mess hall and blew a pretty good size hole in the ground. And there was a sandbag wall between me and the explosion so I was okay, but I woke up looking at the floor coming up at my face…and… I couldn’t hear anything. It was just.. ringing in my ears. I was armorer at that time. They put me in the arms room. I was taking care of the weapons, and we had florescent lights in the arms room and it blew every one of them out but one. There was only one burning and that was pretty exciting. We lost a guy that morning, he was a dog handler. Killed him and his dog as they were going on duty, it was very early in the morning so… (“and do you remember his name?” –Spiker) I don’t, I didn’t know him… we had two barracks of MP’s, one of infantry who helped guard our perimeter and then we had a dog handler… barracks…you knew them in passing, but you didn’t really work very close. Those guys mainly were perimeter guys and they guarded the ammunition supply dump and that sort of thing. We would mainly patrol and come back. You know, we considered them as part of our unit, I mean there was no doubt about that but…there wasn’t as much interaction as there was you know.. with the other MP’s. We had our own club. (“Realy? Me about that.” – �Spiker 5 Spiker) Well it was up on the little hill and it was the road runner club because it was our mascot and… the MP’s didn’t do well at other peoples’ clubs for some reason…(Spike Chuckles)…But the club was just a small little separate building with a bar and… served soft drinks and beer. No hard liquor. No one was eligible for that… occasionally they would hir, you know, a little Vietnamese rock band and bring them and they would you know have a couple of Go Go Girls or something like that.. It was just a nice little club. You mentioned your unit a minute ago, I forgot to ask your unit number. Oh Lord, let me see. Gah, that’s just been so long. It ws the 504th MP CO, and Battalion, I think If I remember correctly, I was in Company B. I was in B, 504th MP Battalion at Pleiku. But that’s been a while, don’t quote me, hahaha. Okay, other than being an armorer, did you have any other details…jobs? …No, that was the only really specialized job that I did. They… our armorer had…the person who was serving as armorer had left, and…they “Okay you’re good with tools, go down there and keep the record.” Course you know everybody does things like paint numbers on jeeps and that sort of thing but that was the only one that I had actually just a separate job. It wasn’t that bad, there were only two of us and we had… it was one on and one off. We slept, we actualy had a bunk in the arms room so we could actually sleep in there two…so, there was always one of us in the arms room, so. If any thing happened we could unlock everything. I did have a station… if we were attacked, from the arms room I was to move up on to a bunker that had a .50 on it. I was to… be part of the .50 crew on, if else had…if I had expended all the ammo that was where I went. (Chuckling) So, that never happened thoug? No. Our attacks were mostly rocket attacks, which were pretty long, big rockets and then of course mortar attacks, we would get those every once in a while. Ambushes would be anything from a few pot shots to a couple of mortar rounds coming in to some sort of improvised device… every once in a while they’d blow a bridge up and we would have to put a defile around it and you know, keep and eye on that. But, I think the road was probably the most dangerous thing. That’s where we, we got more people hurt. Mainly form accidents…rain, mud, jeeps turn over. We also had an armored vehicle, we had V100, which I think now is obsolete, we probably sold them all to some other country. I really liked it because it had a 318 Chrysler engine in it with a four barrel carburetor… (Chuckling) Can you tell me about some of your most memorable experiences while deployed to Vietnam? Oh, wow, let’s see. Well I can think of a couple things… I enjoyed shooting rats at the mess hall at night that was fun, with a crossbow. We would get Vietnamese crossbows and shoot the rats and try to stick them into the wall and that was fun. I used to like to drive out to a … yard, you know the local indigenous people…there was…the French had built a damn near this little village and I used to sneak out their and lay out underneath the trees and just sleep. It was just a whole different…the kids around and all that kind of stuff. Little kids you know how they just want to play and I’de go out and skip stoned with them things like that. It was a good way to kind of relax. �Spiker 6 So were…was everybody able to just go out? No, this was something that really wasn’t sanctioned. Haha, but… you would have your radio on and if there was no convoy…you’d just have to run the road by yourself, just you and your… you’d have a driver and an interpreter and then a gunner on the jeep who had a M60…But if there was nothing going on we’d kind of sneak over, it wasn’t just about a quarter of a mile and just sneak over…relax a while. Have lunch and then get back on the road. It might have been breaking the rules a little bit, but it wasn’t that serious. It was no, no real threat to anything. It was just a little way to unwind. Do you remember much from the end of your tour? Well, I remember when I got short. They took me off duty, I think the last couple of weeks they take you off duty and then put you on light duty where you’re basically cleaning up barracks and taking new guys around to get their equipment and showing them where everything is and things like that. And then, they start processing you out, you have to send your whole baggage and that sort of thing back…and then I think I caught a ride we was always thumbing rides on airplanes or something. I went over to the Air force base, which was right behind us, so I went over and thumbed a ride on a transport and it was a great ride. I remember going back, it was fantastic because the back door was open a couple of feet. And it had a big crack and I could look down on the jungle and there was no one else on the plane except the pilot, co-pilot, crew chief, you know, and me. And I was in the seat, the last seat, just strapped in, looking out the door at the jungle going by. It was pretty cool; it was a good flight back. You say… getting short…for the sake of the interview can you explain what that is? Short is when you’re getting ready to go home and your friends will present you with a swagger stick. And its usually a bullet with a stick stuck in it. (chuckles) And it’s carved to look like a long, little swagger stick, or it’s a shell with a stick stuck in it, then you kind of stick that under your arm and you walk around with it and everybody knows you’re short, you’re bragging you know…and then of course you would make the twoe fingers close together like that…(Demonstrates fore finger and thumb about half an inch apart)…short, and people would be envious. And of course you would have your short timers calendar up n the wall with all the X’s over everyday that you been there…. …What rank where you when you went in and when you came out? Oh, Lord. I remember being an E2 for about three weeks-four weeks and then they made me a E1; I guess an E1 and then they made me an E2. I think that when I got out of basic they made me a E3. And then when I got o Vietnam I became a Spec4 and I stayed that, or should I say, I stayed that until I got back to the United States, I did get busted. Not real proud of that but…I lost my rank for about a month but I made it back. I was basically a good guy, just little things happen. (“Yes sir, yes sir.” –Spiker) So, while serving did you earn any awards/medals? …I had just regular Vietnam medals…I did have a whole bunch of unit citations and all that kind of stuff…I didn’t get any wounds or anything like that. I just tried to stay out of �Spiker 7 trouble and not get killed. I did think I was dead one night though. I ran out of the barracks, we had an attack, and I ran out in the middle of the night and they had dug a ditch across the walkway and I had forgotten about it and the next thing I know I had came too looking up at stars. I thought I had been hit, I start trying to feel for things and, I figured I would get a purple heart for that but they wouldn’t give it to me for some reason. (Spiker laughs) No, falling in a slit trench was not considered being wounded in action…(“Oh, it was a slit trench?! My goodness, haha. Oh, that’s rough” -Spiker) (Gilbert gawfaws) It was new thank goodness. (“Oh good, so there wasn’t anything in it yet.”- Spiker) They had just dug it. It could have been worse. (“It could have been a lot worse.”) How did you stay in touch with your family while in … [Vietnam] Well, we had a new method of communication. It was the cassette tape. My wife, well my fiancé at the time, we sent cassettes to each other. I got lot’s of letters. I wasn’t as good at writing as she was…she…basically, I had a couple of pounds of letters by the time I got to come back. What was the food like, over there in Vietnam? You said you liked the Army food. Well, I always though it was great. The cooks were well trained, they were good. Our company had one cook who was, all he did was make pastries, so we had fresh bread and cakes, pies. He would make breakfast rolls and sweet rolls…I guess I was a chow hound because I liked to eat late. I would have breakfast at eleven o’clock at night and like if I was going on duty and skip the morning breakfast, and eat late…. I never really complained about the food. It was all I wanted and there was plenty of it, and it was good food, it wasn’t just empty calories…occasionally we had steak and baked potatoes. Something weird happened, strange happened when I was in, this was when the Army tried a little experiment. They actually, for the evening meal, they sold beer in the mess hall. Your limit was two, but they were “tall boys”, you know, tall ones. After the evening meal, if you were off duty, you could have as many as two beers in the mess hall. Now I don’t think that lasted too long, but that was an unusual, this was strange for the Army. That getting very liberal here. (“Yes sir.” –Spiker) So it sounded like ya’ll had plenty of supplies while you were there. We did run short in Vietnam, we ran short of canned drinks for a while, in the PX and all that kind of place it was just, something happened and for about a month we couldn’t get soft drinks and things like that for a while. They were short supply…you could get them. A lot of guys would take cases of drinks, buy them at the PX and then take them and trade them on the black market… that kind of thing is always going on. Other than shooting rats, how did ya’ll keep yourselves entertained? Well, we had a day room, and there was tv, and that’s where I saw the moon landing cause that happened when I was…you know… there. Then we had magazines and occasionally, if you had a good friend, you could sneak into the commo bunker, the command bunker, the communications bunker and you could make a phone call or get a phone call… so, one of my friends actually called me from Vietnam, he was in another company a couple of hundred miles away, and he’d call me and we’d talk every once in a �Spiker 8 while. But that was bellow the radar (Chuckles “Yes sir.” –Spiker) ...there was always an emergency phone call if somebody at you home needed to get up with you, you could, it would have to bounce all over the place to get to you, and there was no guaranty that it would get there, but you could make a phone call to the states every once in a while. It was not something that was easily done, at least in my unit. I meant to ask you, your buddies from high school, did any of them get assigned to your unit with you? No, I was the only MP. The rest of them, I think maybe about half of them ended up in the infantry and I know one of them became a medic or maybe two of them. Two of them became medics and I don’t really remember the rest of them….Did have one that went to Chemical Warfare school. Yeah, I remember him. He went there, he was a pretty smart guy. They grabbed him up, and I don’t think he went to Vietnam, he went to Washington and, or some place, kept him stateside. He was real, he was a smart guy. After your three years was up…or did you spend all that three years in Vietnam? I did not. When I came back from Vietnam I was stationed in Maryland at Fort Meade. There were…Fort Meade was Basically riot control for the city of D.C. at that time, and this was when, you know, everybody was rioting about everything. There was always some kind of march going on somewhere. So, that’s where I was, and I applied to Gaston College and got an early out to go to school. I got about four months out early to go to college. That was just like, exciing like going into the Army. It was great. I was ready for college then. Did you use your GI Bill to go to college? I sure did. I got almost four years of college out of three years in the Army. (“Nice” – Spiker) Yeah, at that time it was a full, about a hundred and ninety dollars a month if you weren’t married, so, I think it went to a little over two hundred dollars a month if you were married, as I recall. But you know you could live cheap in Boone, it was a hundred dollars a month in rent… (“So, you went to Appalachian State as well?” –Spiker) I did. (“Good, good.” –Spiker) Were you married to Harriette at that time? We got married the year that I transferred from…it would have been my third year of college. We got married just after I graduated from Gaston. I got an AA form Gaston and then we got married and she started graduate school because she was ahead of me by four years. And, I had just started my third year at Appalachian. Did you retain any friendships from the service while you were still in college and throughout life? A few but unfortunately they have gone by the wayside, most of them. I can’t, only the ones that are from Lincolnton that I went to school with I still see them occasionally. Most of them are, you know, you just lose touch. (“I understand.” –Spiker) While…studying at Appalachian State what was your major? I was an Art Major. �Spiker 9 Art Major, and did you go on to fulfill your dreams in art? Well, I got out from Appalachian, my wife and I were married, we moved to Dallas, NC and I started teaching at William C. Friday Middle School. What did you teach there? I taught art, my degree was actually art education, so, either being an artist or being a teacher was…either way. It was convenient and there was a job…I didn’t know I was going to like teaching though. She talked me into…I was just going to be an art major, she’s the one who talked me into being an art education major she says you might want to teach, you don’t know, you know. You might not do well as an artist when you first get out. So, why don’t you just do that, it’s just a few extra courses. I said, “Alright.” …and I kind of like teaching. So, you continued to teach until? Well I taught for about…six years and then I went to work for a mining company, but there was financial incentive. Yeah, I got a pretty good raise to move into the mining industry…I went to work in a lab for them and got to do all kinds of wonderful and interesting things in mining and in a lab and chemistry and special projects…mainly why they hired me was because I knew a little bit about chemistry, I knew a little bit about ceramic engineering, I knew how to weld, I knew how to do some electrical work, so that art background of kind of knowing a little bit about a lot of stuff, but not being an expert the said, “Well good, we’re going to put you in special projects.” So, for about twelve years. It was a good job, excellent, I was never doing the same thing for very long they were always pulling me around and making me do all kinds of crazy… I mean learned how to survey, learned how to use a computer. Just everything. After that job you went on to teach again? Well I stated teaching college off and on as an adjunct professor, not a full time professor, but just in part time. And then I’ve done that ever since. I worked as a computer programmer at Doran Mills in Shelby. I worked in the printing industry for a couple of years as a trainer, I would install systems and train people on how to use computer systems and use programs like photoshop and how to do touch up editing and I was a font expert I guess you would say. And all of those electronic font things…and then I got back into teaching again in middle school. An then…this will be my tenth year and last year. And I will retire. (“Well, congradulations.” –Spiker) Well, I think that’s pretty much all I have. Is there anything else that you would like to add to… No, I enjoyed talking to you. I have as well. I have as well. I do appreciate it. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/1bdd75cdd11a394d9998334fae93d20e.mp3 33274ab687bac5808732c11c00bd0f44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Gilbert, Richard Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Spiker, Cody Interview Date 10/15/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:35:06 File name 2013_063_Gilbert_Richard_interview 2013_063_Gilbert_Richard_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Gilbert, 15 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spiker, Cody Gilbert, Richard Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 9 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Gilbert, Richard Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Richard Gilbert served in the army for three years during the Vietnam War. He was a volunteer right out of high school, and figured the military was his only way to get to college. He was stationed in Pleiku, Vietnam and worked as a military police officer. He saw very little combat but his base was ambushed a couple of times. After the 3 years were up he majored in art at Appalachian State and worked as a middle school art teacher. army Fort Gordon Georgia Fort Meade GI Bill military police Pleiku Vietnam https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/8333634f29bed049b0c80d06b1a20a1a.pdf c138b1bf9b11de1297abbba3856263ad PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Medical SFC James Farley March 9, 2011. Boone, NC Anna Tyor: Well my name is Anna Tyor .. and I will be interviewing Mr. Farley. It is March ... Medical SFC James Farley: .. the 9th .. Tyor: the 9th! For my Military History Class. So first of all I just wanted to ask you, where were you born and when? Farley: I was born in Newark, NewYork. .. 19 ... June 7th, 1966. Tyor: Alrighty, and uh ... why did you first join the military? Farley: (pause) I was raised one county over from here .. course during that time ... Tyor: (interrupts) I'm sorry, I don't know if I can hear you ... Farley: ok. .. (moves forward in his chair) I joined the military in June of 1984 upon graduating high school. I started out in the United States Marine Core. Basically because ... there was not a whole lot of employment opportunities during that time frame in the Appalachians. Tyor: Alright. And .. why did you pick the service branch that you joined? Farley: Wel 've been in two services. I picked, the Marin Core ecause it was the Marin Core ya know? ..1 was in the infantry for my f st to . ater on .. .l chose to finish m areer in the Army-Because ... the Marine or didn't have medics and I wanted to be a medic. So .. Tyor: Oh, well that's interesting. So how long were you in the opposed to the Army? Marine~e s Farley: 3 years Tyor: And did you like either service better than the other? Farley: ... Not really? I liked each about the same. I liked my job in the Army better. Tyor: oh ok, as the medic? Farley: Right. Tyor: So where did you get your medical training? �Farley: At Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Tyor: OH ok, my dad had his medical training in Texas. Urn, so what was ... basic training like? Farley: Basic training, I did with the Marine Core on Paris Island, South Carolina. That's uh, probably the toughest 13 weeks of my life .. .l was glad I'd done it 'cause of course the Army didn't make me do it again (laughs). Tyor: Definitely. So did you serve in any wars? Farley: I did. Tyor: Which ones? Farley: .. .I'm a Desert Storm, Desert Shield veteran, Gulf War in 1991. I have ... served in the Balkans and I served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Tyor: Ok, and were you a Marine, or Army? Farley: Army. Tyor: Army, ok. And what was your particular job .. .l guess in each war? Farley: I was a combat medic. Tyor: Combat medic, ok. And did you ...were you awarded any medals during your time? Farley: I've been awarded the bronze star ... the combat medical badge ... 2 awards. And an ARCOM. Tyor: And how did you win these medals? If you don't mind. Farley: (pause) Oh, serving a company in the ground forces of the United States in combat. Tyor: Alright. So when you saw combat, what was your most memorable experience during this time? Farley: Oh! That's a tough one! Tyor: (laughs) yes, it's a heavy question! Farley: yeah, that's a tough one ... �Tyor: or a couple Farley: (pause) I would just say, just normal, you know Medevac flights coming in and having to set up landing ... zones to receive the patients. And .. .it was ... not a whole lot really specifics ... I do ... have a memory. I guess my most vivid memory, we had a, I won't really call it a direct, combat for medics are a little bit different, ok. .. during OFl. .. we had a school out in the town ofTikrit. I think the insurgence had it, but, they put land mines on the playground. And when they let out for their kids or whatever, to call recess or whatever, a lot of them got ... set off the mines and all of those got brought to my aid station. Tyor: Oh gosh, that's terrible. Farley: So it was about a 24-hour period of working on kids which I wasn't used to. Tyor: Yeah, you wouldn't think ... going in for the Army. Well ... that's very sad ... And definitely a memorable experience. So I guess, what factors kept you going through experiences like that? Just like a bond with your soldiers, fellow soldiers, or your family, like letters? Farley: My soldiers. You know ... as you get ... progress through the system, you know I was a E7, which was a Sergeant First Class, my last combat tour in Iraq ... and given the opportunity to leave I wouldn't have, to be with my soldiers, you know? Tyor: Definitely. I've been reading a lot of books for ... my different military history classes and it seems that that's the general bonding. That's an amazing thing ... So when you were serving, how, how did you guys entertain yourselves just on the down time? Farley: (laughs) Oh! A lot, a lot of rooks and spades. Yeah. Tyor: (laughs) Well, that's a good way to do it ... did you look forward to mail and things like that? Farley: Yes ... unfortunately I was always ... with the Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom I've done, number one, the initial push in, and so mail really wasn't established during my combat. It was for follow on troops, later but ... I was on my, on my actions but I was kind of in with the first ground forces Tyor: So it was harder to get it in? Farley: Yeah, couldn't get much mail. Tyor: Well, urn, how do you feel...how did you feel when your service ended? or .. .in each war? �Farley: Well, of course I was glad to be coming home to my wife and children. You know ... I was happy ... I was happy to go ... to return home. Tyor: And where did you return to? To Boone? L.eoMII wo Farley: No ... actually I was still in the Army ... After Desert Storm I returned to Fort Lindenwood where I was stationed ... and OIF ... and returned to Fort Hood, Texas. ~ Tyor: Oh ok, so how did you make it up to Boone? Farley: I'm from Johnson County, Tennessee. I retired, I'm retired. I retired in 2006 from the Army ... now I work here as a Department of the Army civilian employee. I'm a civil servant. But I was raised in Mountain City, Tennessee. Just one county over ... Tyor: Oh yeah, I've been over to Mountain City, it's a good place. Well this is a good place to retire then? Farley: Oh yeah. I've been blessed to be ... to still get to play with the Army too ... yeah. Tyor: Definitely, definitely .... so actually when you first got back from your service ... did you go back to school...or did you immediately start up a new job in the Army or what exactly did you do? Farley: Are you talking about (cough) when I retired or when I returned from overseas combat? Tyor: When you returned from overseas, sorry. Farley: Oh I would normally PCS to a new job. After my last combat tour I got promoted to ES, and l...once I got back to Fort Hood I received orders to be a First Sergeant in Sol).th Korea. And I moved to Korea for a year. ~ou( Tyor: Wow, what did you think of Korea? Farley: Oh I liked it. I've done three tours in Korea, I liked it. Tyor: Yeah? What did you like about it? Farley: (pause) I liked the culture, I mean the people are are great. There's almost no crime. Tyor: Yeah, I've heard that... �Farley: It's a really educated population there, you know ... ! like everything about Korea! I mean, if I didn't have family here I would probably move to Korea. (laughs). Tyor: I've heard that about Korea! I've actually looked into Korea, teaching English there, through like the TEFL program. Farley: Oh yeah, very great experience ... again I can't say enough good things about Korea. Tyor: Well, that's a good thing to hear ... well, have you kept up with the people that you've met while you were serving? Or your fellow soldiers? Farley: I keep a couple ... ! keep in touch with a couple of them, of course everybody's got face book these days so it didn't take them long to find me when I created an account! (laughs). Tyor: (laughs) Oh yeah, I made my dad do that too ... well I guess, is there anything else you like to add that we didn't cover? Any last words? Farley: (pause) Well ...not really. If this is going to go to a Jot of young people .. .! mean I would highly encourage a career in the military, you know, it teaches citizenship ... responsibility ... you know and ... ! mean honestly ... we wouldn't be sitting here doing this interview of course because you needed to do it on a veteran ... ! mean it opens up so many windows for you ... you know there's a ... there's a lot of negative in our country right now ... ! won't say people looking negative on the military but if you realize only one percent of Americans ever serve. Tyor: That's a small percentage. Farley: ... so our story isn't heard a Jot. Tyor: Well there is a lot of respect, I know, that goes towards the military. I think it's extremely important so I want to thank you so much for having this interview with me! Farley: Your welcome. (shake hands). Tyor: And thank you for taking the time out of your day to do it. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/a37bce8f0201f6e5c21032635fd0c251.mp3 ad280983d098c75aaca2b906c4e533f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Farley, James Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Tyor, Anna Interview Date 3/9/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:09:44 File name 2013_063_Farley_JamesA_interview 2013_063_Farley_James_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Farley, 9 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tyor, Anna Farley, James Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Farley, James Persian Gulf War, 1991 Iraq War, 2003-2011 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Army Medical Personnel Description An account of the resource James Farley served as a Medical SFC in the army for several years. He is a veteran of the Gulf War and Operation Iraqi Freedom. He began in the Marine Corps, but decided he wanted to become a combat medic and did his medical training at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. He continued to serve the army in the States until his retirement. army Desert Storm Fort Sam Houston Gulf War Medical SFC Operation Iraqi Freedom US Marine Corps https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/7b64d54795133a68bf9a1048f24a75a0.pdf f829a20d40985f1fd30335bd18e724a7 PDF Text Text Transcription Veteran Interview: Daniel P. Elliott Interviewer: My name is Brendan Elliott from Dr. Browning's Fall 2012 American Military History class. And today I'm here interviewing my grandfather, Dan Elliott. So, let's start out with our first question: During the conflict that you were involved in, where were you living [pause] at the time? Interviewee: Well I […um...] was one of the young, younger people in, in the, at that time and about I turned eighteen…in 1943, in August, and so consequently I signed up for the Draft, had to sign up for the Draft at that point, and then living in Shreveport with my parents. I had just dropped out of college because I found it to be kind of disturbing situation to try and study and have all the people going, coming and going; that sort of thing. Interviewer: Um, and so were you drafted or did you enlist? And how old were you? Interviewee: Well as I said I was eighteen years old, and I had tried to enlist in the Navy, but I had the problem of [...] near sightedness and color blindness..and uh the, the recruiter said that he would promise me that I could stay in a, in a recruiting station in Kansas, just to make sure the, that the Navy was safe with me and my eyes, and so consequently I, I decide not to get in the Navy and waited for the Draft to take place, which happened in [stutters while collecting thought] the middle of October, late of October of [nineteen] fourty three. Interviewer: And why did you want to join…the military? Interviewee: I, I didn't really want to join, but by the same token, uh, I, when I was drafted I was drafted [pause] and we all knew that the threat of what [stutters while collecting thought] the Nazis were such that the [again stutters while collecting thought] it took an effort from everybody to try to get, uh, do something to stop this, what they were doing because they were relatively inhuman and they were doing things that you wouldn't believe could be don…people would do to each other, and so, logical on that basis if you thought about it, you needed to do something to stop the Nazis and really what reason joined [interviewer: mhm] Interviewer: Um, and why did you pick the service branch you joined? You said originally you wanted to join the Navy, then, you were drafted into the Army. Why did you want to go to the Navy in the first place? Interviewee: I, having been a sailor all my life to that point, I just, I, I had a love of the sea, and so consequently I, that was my reason for trying but uh, when that happened, didn't happen, well the Army was my next choice because I couldn't fly, because of my eyes and I didn't really want to be a m…You'd say a ground man for the Air Force, so I took the Army. Interviewer: Um, can you describe any of your training or boot camp experiences? Interviewee: Well, you know [clears throat] was, we were [pause] in the um […] the boot camp experiences…One of the, one of the first things they did was they took you on a, on a [stutters while collecting thought] a real long hike [chuckles] at night and so that you, you really got very, very um [stutters while collecting thought] matter of fact [pauses] probably twenty percent of them dropped out. I didn't drop out, I, I got a little sick, but I [interviewer: mhm] stayed with it. And, and seemed to make out alright with that, but then most of the training was drilling and, and learning what the Army was about and �learning, learning the other, uh shooting, and learning how to handle the gun, just […] take them apart, that sort of thing. And it, it was a [pause] probably a six…three to six months period. The one, the one experience I had, of course having gotten in the Army in October, late October we ended up getting up in Oregon and uh [pauses while collecting thought] Christmas came. And um, I, I had the privilege of kitchen duty [translation from context] on Christmas day. And I got to wash dishes, for EVER [chuckles]. [Stutters] And I always remember the mess, mess sergeant, he was a pretty nice guy and he came over and helped me wash. And the reason I had to do that […] because of the guy who was supposed to be on KP went AWOL to go home to see, wherever he lived was relatively local so […] and he came back, but he had been home for Christmas [interviewer: mhm] but I was in Oregon and not Louisiana [chuckles] for Christmas. Interviewer: And which wars did you serve in? Interviewee: Well, I, I only, the service I did was World War Two. Interviewer: And where exactly did you go? Interviewee: Well, [clears throat] let me just tell you, a little bit we did before we went overseas. Because actually, [clears throat] as we um [pauses] got through with the training at Camp White we went to Camp Housen, Texas; which was just above, above Dallas and […] while there, they sent us, they sent a group of us out to do machine gun [...] aircraft [pauses to collect thought] shooting, trying to shoot down aircraft from a truck, uh fifty [.50] caliber machine gun, and so [stutters to collect thought] that was out of El Paso, Texas and we found out what a dust storms were. Because [stutters while collecting thought] sand would start blowing around there and you had to clean the gun before you could even shoot [interviewer: mhm]. Then from there we went to West Virginia; up and around the Elkins, West Virginia there's a great big National Forest there and they were using it for training areas and in there I had the opportunity to become a mountain climber trainee and we went up and trained for about a week or ten days being instructed on how to climb mountains in case we went to Italy where mountains were; [Interviewer: mhm] we didn't do that. But then, from there we went over to um […flips through notes] Camp Picket in Virginia and learned about build…bridge building and which was part of our combat engineering training and [pauses to collect thought] it was on the Susquehanna River I believe is what the name of the river did all that. At that place we knew we were getting close because they gave us a [order] to go home and tell everybody goodbye. And from there we went to New York […] to Fort Slocum which was just off of New Rochelle and […] we did get to go into town to visit New York City a little bit, but I didn't get to go see my brother who was in Staten Island at that point. He was working for a ship yard. And actually, we left New York on the twenty-second of October, on this converted Italian luxury liner, the Saturnia and we were in a convoy that took eleven days to go across the Atlantic, and we ended up in South Hampton [United Kingdom] then we went to Delamere Park which was near North Hampton and where we were stationed for the time being but we had been moving around over England to open several replacement camps and old camps so that replacement troops could be taken care of when they came in for the second invasion of England with these replacement troops. […] We left England, Christmas week, 1944, and we [clears throat] didn't, didn't know whether we were gonna go to the, to the remaining of The Bulge [Battle of the Bulge] which was up around Bastogne or where we were going, but we finally when we got into Le Havre, they sent us out to a plowed field where we spent about two or three days waiting for the trucks to take us up. And we went to the Maginot Lines [clears throat] and we stayed there two or three days and then we went on up to Bouzonville, France which was near Saarbrücken [Germany] where we spent time trying to reinforce […] the area, because there was a rumor that the Germans might, when stopped at The Bulge, they might come around […] that area, so we, we put out […] demolition for, for bridges and trees and such in case they came we could blow up things and stop them from moving very much. And while we were there, I was transferred […] I was in the 187th �Engineers at that point, and while I was there they, I was transferred to the 44th combat engineering battalion, which had been decimated by the Germans during The Bulge. And so, at that point, I moved over to Bastogne which was where they, they were stationed out of […] The Bulge had been stopped [Interviewer: mhm] and were moving things, started moving up. [Takes pause to catch breath and collect thoughts] There was a great push from Bastogne to um, by the Americans to recoup, Americans and the British and the others recoup, the ground, so we did everything we could to keep supplies moving, on the front, maintaining roads and bringing up time, every time we moved up, up with the troops and we moved North through Aachen [Germany] and into Cologne [Germany] then to Koblenz [Germany]. When we got to Koblenz that was where the Moselle River came in and met the Rhine River. It was across river, we, we were able to, at point, we had, having all the trucks and vehicles we had, we went down and confiscated a few cases of wine so that we could have a taste of the good German wine that they, we had heard about [Interviewer: mhm] in the old days. Then uh, [skimming through notes] from there we, we traveled over several […] towns, Frankfurt [Germany], and Kassel [Germany], and then finally at the end…the war ended, we were in Plowen [Germany], which was right at the edge of Czechoslovakia, which is East Germany so to speak [Interviewer: mhm]. And that's kinda where we, where we stopped, and we stayed there for uh, until the Russians came, […] the Russians came over to take over that area [Interviewer: mhm] which was, that was part of the agreement put in […] at the end of the war; they were going to get East Germany so to speak. Interviewer: Um, and so you've mentioned a little bit about combat engineering, but um, so next question would be what is your job or your assignment […] as a combat engineer? Interviewee: Well I, I was actually enlisted as a, to start with as an electrician […] then uh finally I got to be, I mean I got transferred [...] the captain picked me out, saw that I was a…He was a construction […] man and he had some kind of building business back in the States. And he saw that as an engineer he thought may I, we would be compatible so consequently we, we got together and I ended up being his driver…but they had me listed as a clerk typist [chuckles] and just so that because of the way, the way the rules were…I guess [Interviewer: mhm]. So anyway, they, they […] we never did really do anything that except build odds and ends of things and we…mostly just taking care of roads, troops, and trying to make sure everybody was safe where they were as combat engineers. […] While we were going across uh, Germany, there, we hit one spot which was close to where the Remagen Bridge was still standing. The Germans had actually demolished all the crossing spots for, over the Rhine river, except somehow or another they had missed this one and we, we anticipated…the Army anticipated that, that sooner or later, they were going to try and blow it up somehow or another, which with the cannon shots or what have you. But, so what we, what we as engineers had to do was to go up the river about fifteen miles and build a pontoon bridge across the Rhine River. It took about three […] battalions of pontoon companies, or three companies that brought pontoons to get the, enough pontoons to go across and we had the grading that sat on top of the um […] pontoons and that […] it took about a day and a half to build all this, and our two couple of days, and it was kind of under fire [Interviewer: mhm] and there was, there was always a smoke screen being generated so people couldn't see, so people couldn't see what was going on and if you sat there in a truck, or so along the this track, these tanks would come along and they couldn't see where they were going [chuckles] and we couldn't see where they were going either, so you always were nervous about where, if you were safe to be around there because of the traffic that was going on. [Interviewer: mhm] And it was, that was, I guess that was the biggest that thing we did in the whole, in our, our, my part of the war because it, that, that uh, whole number of troops and vehicles go across the Rhine [River] safely where they, on this bridge [Interviewer: mhm]. �Interviewer: So you said you were kind of under fire, did, did you, during the building of this bridge. Did you see any combat at, during this time or at any other point during your service? Interviewee: Well [clears throat] um […] I, I really never did have anybody just, I was never was in a fox hole or never was in, in that, that kind of situation where it was man to man or what have you [Interviewer: mhm] but most days it was cannon fire or one time we had machine guns somewhere, somebody was running a machine gun at, at the road we were going across and we had to do something about that…but generally speaking we, we never did have direct fire on our operations. [Interviewer: okay] But sometimes we were in front of the troops, sometimes we were in the back of the troops and sometimes […] it was just…there was a […] at that point, there was a great deal of disorder in the Germans so that you, they didn't know exactly what they were supposed to do or how they were supposed to do it so consequently we, we could be in a place which was front of the troops, but, they, they, there won't be many troops, many German troops around, to um […] to harass us or to fight with us I guess. Interviewer: Um, were you awarded any medals, citations or anything similar during your service? Interviewee: [Reviewing notes] They uh, the medals that I, that I received, were the European [the uh] Medal, the Good Conduct Medal and the World War Two Victory Medal; nothing specific. Thank goodness I didn't ever have to have a Purple Heart [Interviewer: mhm]…It just didn't happen […] in our […] place. Interviewer: Um, during the time of service when you were overseas, how did, did you stay in touch with your family? Uh, and how did you do that? Interviewee: Well […] directly everything was by correspondence and [Interviewer: mhm] […] we had…I'll say, semi-reasonable […] mail service. Sometimes, matter of fact, we had better mail service than we had water service…go a month without a shower [chuckles; Interviewer: mhm] a lot of the time, but, but they mail service…somehow or another, they, they managed to get the mail, […] to us at some point. We didn't, I guess you didn't really think about it all that much except […] we knew they were alright so, [Interviewer: yeah] so that was not our, our concern, would have been our concern…but they were fine. [Interviewer: Alright]. Interviewer: Um, during the, the more difficult or stressful days that you had during your service, was there anything special you did for good luck or to, uh, motivate yourself? Interviewee: Well, [Reviewing notes] What they […] all of us kind of […] passively, got in touch with God occasionally because we just, we […] somebody's gotta be looking out for you [Interviewer: mhm] and I think, and you don't think about it very much as you do it because we didn't see very many um, didn't see very many […] services […] church services by any means […] there were a few and so, you were very pleased to be a part, part of it if you were there somewhere. […] I guess really […] in my case, the, the stress was not really that much that you really got hung up on it [Interviewer: mhm] you got…on occasion you got frightened but by the same token it would pass very quickly in, in our case. Interviewer: Um […] what did you think of your fellow officers and…your officers, and fellow soldiers in your…element? Interviewee: As I, as I went in as a trainee, was to start with, we had a, a quadruple…people who had been in Alaska for two years […] and came back and there they, they were the cadre who formed the 187th [Engineers] and they, they were, they were princes…they had, they had been through it all, they had, they knew what to do…and they, […] they didn't make it easy, but they, they knew how to handle…the things �because of the, what the discipline they had had and when I transferred into the other outfit, well they, they […] they were at peace; we were all in it together, and most of us weren't, weren't uh, profession soldiers. There were a few scattered among, but uh, […] we were all just there to try to do what we had to do and, and survive really. And I don’t know, I don't ever remember there being any real antagonism between any of the people, one way or the other. And the officers, were…they were, I'll say, very, relatively decent people to, to have to deal with us [Interviewer: mhm] and, we didn't have any real complaints. Interviewer: Okay. Um, and what was one of the more interesting or memorable experiences you had during your service? Interviewee: Well, that's, as I told you before […] the building that Remagen Bridge, replacement [Interviewer: mhm] the pontoon bridge, that was, that was a […] that to me was the outstanding thing. A matter of fact, it's kind of interesting with that […] back here in the states in this day in time…a friend of mine, […] that was ill and we were sitting there talking and he sai…I told him about…he was over in Europe too and he was with a photography group that took pictures of things happening for the record…and I told him about building this pontoon bridge, he said "I've got a picture of the pontoon bridge" [chuckles]. And so he dug it out and uh, sure enough it was, it was, it looked like the one we had [Interviewer: mhm] couldn't be positive, but it was a pontoon bridge. And […] so it happened that uh, […] we talked about it [stutters while collecting thought] and he actually…his pilot, that he, he worked as a mechanic on the plane [Interviewer: mhm] that took pictures. And the pilot, came down to visit him in Brevard, where we are. And so they, he said, "would like you to meet the pilot…" [chuckles] "…who took the pictures." And uh, so I got him to autograph the picture that I [chuckles]. Which was kind of an interesting thing to have happen to, something […] which was [Interviewer: small world] a long time ago. [Chuckles] [Interviewer: yeah]. Interviewer: Um, do you recall the day when your service ended? Um, where were you? And do you know how long, you, were overseas for? Interviewee: They uh […] January the 26th, 1946 was when I was discharged. And I was at Camp Shelby, Mississippi near Hattiesburg [Mississippi]. And I had been in it for two years and three months. And um…they […] I had been back in the States for about three or four months before I was discharged; I came back in the fall of that year and just […] by circumstance. [Interviewer: mhm] And the thing that happened, with me, the 44th Engineer, Combat Engineer went, came…when the war was over, in Germany, they sent us down to Marseille…and they, they dis, disbanded the group […] and I was on the, in the […] ordinance group that was scheduled to go to Japan [Interviewer: mhm]. [Clears throat] And uh, we were up in this holding area waiting for the ships to come in that were going to take us to Japan to land aboard there; from what we know…and what happened was that President Truman ordered the Atomic Bombs to be dropped on Japan, and uh, first thing you know, the war was over with [Interviewer: mhm]. And the, after the second bomb, the, the Emperor declared […] surrender…[Interviewer: mhm] total surrender. And so consequently we, we were sitting up there and just happened that four days before…four days later we were supposed to get on the ship. So consequently, instead of trying to disperse us, redisperse us into Europe, they, they just went ahead and sent us home [Interviewer: okay]. And so I got home a lot sooner [chuckles] than a lot of my friends who were over, still over in Europe. And, but we got home in the fall of [19]46. Spent the time there and, and then I had to go, I had to stay in the Service because I didn't have, didn't have enough points to get out yet [Interviewer: okay] and so consequently, that's why I ended up in Camp Shelby, Mississippi for about two, three, or four months. [Interview: okay] Interviewer: Um, did you make any close friends while you were in the Service? �Interviewee: At this point [chuckles] uh, um, what…how long ago…it's been so long ago that, [Interviewer: mhm] yes, we had, we had, we had a lot, very…you know you'd have your two or three guys that you really liked being with or work with what have you…and uh, stayed in touch after the war for…I'd say several years and then you saw that you'd, you're not gonna ever get together again [Interviewer: mhm] so, something…so consequently, they, you kind of dropped, dropped the friends over the time […] of course, you're creating new friends so [Interviewer: yeah], in your businesses and what have you that you've done. Interviewer: Alright, Um, and when you got back, did you go to work, or did you go back to school? Interviewee: When I first got back, I, I really kind of did a little bit […] retraining about things but, […] I ended up working as a rodman for a surveyor…a one person surveyor. And I worked in that for about six months and then, he worked me hard enough that I decided that I really needed to go back to school [Interviewer: mhm] and so that's why that, that fall, I went, started back to college from where I had been before. And then […] the next three years I guess, was taken up with college and I graduated from there in June of [19]49 with a mechanical engineering degree. [Interviewer: okay] Interviewer: Um, and, the next question would be: what did you go on to do as a career after the war? Interviewee: Well, I went up to become a sale, manufacture's rep with my brother, but there was a problem with my doing that in Baltimore [Maryland] and so consequently I ended up getting a job with the Baltimore Gas Electric Company for about a year and a half. While I was doing that, I met some people that worked for W.R. Grace Chemicals and this was chemicals, phosphate chemicals, chemical fertilizer company and also silicone gel. And, and they asked me to come work for them as a project engineer. And I stayed there for about ten years, but then I finally ended up in Florida with them; working in the phosphate mines. Then I decided […] One of the people I met, suggested maybe I would enjoy being with a consultant engineering group, in Atlanta [Georgia]. And so I applied and uh, went to [pause] H.A. Simons, Simons Eastern Company [Interviewer: mhm] in Atlanta, Georgia and stayed there thirty-four years. I enjoyed being project engineer, project manager, […] and chief estimator for the company. [Interviewer: mhm] Interviewer: Um, did your military influe[nce]…experience influence your thinking about war as a whole, or the military in general? Interviewee: Well, my personal opinion: war is not good, but there are people not satisfied with their own lot in life and they want to take away our freedom because of their lack of ability [Interviewer: mhm] in their country. And someone has to repel these crack pots, as I'll call them, and our armed forces are working hard to let us maintain our existence. And they should be given great credit and support. And the politics of maintaining a world order is very, a very complex situation between the haves and have nots. Unfortunately, the situation we have with, between the UN and the rest of the world…all the things we try to do […] make it difficult to live […] make it difficult for us to live In peace [Interviewer: mhm]…which we haven't had for a long time at this point. [Interviewer: yeah] Interviewer: Um, well I don't have any other questions. Is there anything you would like to add about, before your experience, military service, during or after? Interviewee: Well, I think, one of the things…with having graduating high school at the age of sixteen and then going into the Service at eighteen, gave me an opportunity to grow up and understand things a little bit better. And I found out that having a degree and having an education does make a difference in the way �that you live, and think and consequently, I that's why I went back to college…was to do that. And I'm pleased that I got, had enough brains to take advantage of it. Interviewer: Alright, well thank you…for answering these questions and doing this interview with me. Interviewee: It's my pleasure. Say thank you for letting me, asking me to give you my experiences because it gave me a chance to relive it a little bit and refresh my memory. And it […] I had to look up a couple of things on my atlas [chuckles] some names that I had pointed, had thought about and hadn't done anything with in a long time. Thank you very much. Interviewer: You're welcome. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/00b8a1910d2811951a9bd940d663e9ba.mp3 a3e39bbe1b990699cf3ea035f89aca13 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Elliott, Daniel P. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Elliott, Brendan Interview Date 10/15/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:33:51 File name 2013_063_Elliott_Daniel_interview 2013_063_Elliott_DanielP_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Daniel P. Elliott, undated Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elliott, Brendan Elliott, Daniel P. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 7 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Elliott, Daniel P. World War, 1939-1945 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Daniel Elliott is a WWII veteran who served for almost 3 years as a combat engineer. He says his biggest accomplishment was helping to build a pontoon bridge over the Rhine River so that American troops and vehicles could pass safely. He was released from duty a bit earlier after the Japanese were bombed and the war ended. He went on to study mechanical engineering and worked as a surveyor. army Battle of the Bulge Camp Shelby combat engineer Daniel Elliott Nazi Rhine River pontoon bridge WWII https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/290cdeb884a2a5a281731752df0a2603.pdf a47c16c347f26de98030f9a53405c208 PDF Text Text Samantha Lane 3-14-11 HIS 3823-101 · Dr. Browning Interview Transcription Lane: I am Samantha Lane, a History Secondary Education major at Appalachian State University in North Carolina. The date is February sixth, 2011. And we are currently in Sanford, North Carolina. And I'm interviewing former E4 specialist, Stel Dubbiosi, and we will begin the interview now. So Stel, when and where were you born? Dubbiosi: Brooklyn New York. In 1961. May 19th. Lane: Ok. Can you describe your family, what was your family like? Dubbiosi: typical Italian family. Raised catholic. Had two brothers, no sisters. Stay at home mom. And a college professor for a dad. Lane: What subject did your father teach? Dubbiosi: He had several MBAs, masters ... He was a lawyer, and accountant, and a music professor, and he chose music out of all, so ... well educated man, didn't start working ... didn't graduate all.. .finish all his college degrees until he was in his thirties. Lane: Wow. Was there any kind of military history in your family? Dubbiosi: Just an uncle that was .. .in Normandy, in the U.S. Army. He was a paratrooper. He ... died in Normandy, he died exactly July 24th 1944 in Normandy. Lane: So you didn't grow up hearing any stories, about any kind of adventures ... Dubbiosi: Oh, I heard all kinds of adventures, about jeeps running over his foot, (laughter) getting drunk and stuff, but those were from mom ... it was her brother so she talked about him often. Lane: Alright, so ... did you ... How old were you when you decided to enlist? Dubbiosi: I was sixteen years old, and I kept pushing my parents to let me join the Air Force ... took all the ASVAP tests and physicals and all that for it so I could get in when I was seventeen ... and my father was against it. My mother was for almost anything that I wanted so she signed me in when it was time. I didn't get to go in the air force, cuz all they wanted ... all �they had opening was for security police, and the navy offered me every career field there was, I just chose ... Radar Air Control Operation Specialist ... in the navy... lane: Is there a reason you chose to do that in particular or just ... Dubbiosi: I'd grown up watching all them fighter jock movies. And all that. I guess I like that more than anything. The ... l knew I couldn't fly a plane, but if I was involve in aircraft, it was a better field in the navy. You got a lot more shore bases ... lane: ... Where did you ... do your basic training? Dubbiosi: Orlando Florida. Lane: What was that like? Dubbiosi: ... Wasn't like anything that I'd imagined ... was you know ... a lot of marching, a lot of living in a dorm with a bunch a guys. Everybody was real young. Folding clothes. They were trying to teach you attention to detail. Didn't have a lot of work with ... you know weapons or military history or anything I thought basic training was supposed to be. There weren't obstacle courses ... they weren't really testing your physical ability except ... you know ... beating you up on what they called the Grinder. You'd go out there and run 2 or 3 miles a day... that was about it but, there were no obstacle courses you had to go through, no water swim tests or anything like that for the navy. It was ...just pretty much folding clothes, marching, just trying to teach you attention to detail...follow direct orders. lane: What's your best memories of basic training? Dubbiosi: My parents coming down to see me when I graduated. lane: What about your worst memory? Dubbiosi: ... It was standing guard over all the crazies that were getting shipped out of the military. We had a dorm specifically set up for them ... where they ... have 'urn until they were processed out. And you' d ... have to stand over 'urn at night and a lot of them would wear their uniforms inside-out ... walk around with a helmet on backwards, beating garbage cans ... you know at 3 o'clock in the morning trying to wake people up ... just acting completely crazy so they could get away with their process out of the military. lane: And ... once you were finished with your basic training, where were you assigned? Dubbiosi: I was ... I went to school in Great Lakes Illinois, which was very, very cold ... it was 1978, and it was a horrible winter ... and I went to Radar Operations School. �Lane: And how was that? What was that like? Dubbiosi: ...It was ... it was a whole lot more interesting that any school that I'd been to ... it was taught differently than normal high school or college ... You know you actually got to participate ... in class ... it was more like on the job training than anything else. It was, you know, you were rewarded, you know for your achievement ... you had an actual goal that you had to achieve and it was short enough not to be boring. It was about sixteen weeks, which is a whole lot better than a year in school. (laughter). Lane: Now you said ... this was in 1978 so were you ... once you were done with your ...job school...( nodded assent) were you ever deployed into any combat situation or anything like that? Dubbiosi: No. The Cold War was out ... we were in a Cold War. .. a lot of it was engaging... the enemy submarines, aircraft .. .it was an electronic war. You ... everything was done by locking on to them, locking on to you, you have observation .. .funny story ... the ... we ... we always took pictures of aircraft, and ships and submarines ... and ... these ... pictures were declassified years later, and actually sent to my home address, where my parents were. And my parents were very impressed, you know by all of the beautiful ships, and there was this one ... it was Soviet aircraft called Bear Foxtrot. And ... an F4 .. and we were a P3 Charlie-Orion ... taking photos of all this ... and ... the F4 was ... engaging the Bear Foxtrot electronically ... and there's a huge circular dome window on the side of the Bear Foxtrot ... and there's an operator... a Soviet operator who is in there. And he's taking photographs of us, just like we're taking photographs of him. And he was giving us the finger ... (laughter) ... and we took a photograph of it. Well, my parents had got these pictures, and they were a little elderly at the time so I don't think they noticed it ... but they put ... they had the picture blown up and put on their mantle above the fireplace. When I came home, I saw the picture and there's this picture of that aircraft and the guy giving the finger. .. (laughter) ... and my parent's never even figured that out so ... that was interesting. But no there was never any combat ... that was ... the closest combat it came to was like an electronic video game ... now there was engagement and no actual shooting of bullets. Lane: Now you told me before that you were first stationed in Iceland ... (assent). Obviously you'd never been to Iceland before, what was that like? Dubbiosi: Keflavik, Iceland was very, very desolate looking place ... it was a scary looking place. I got there during the winter, and it was six months ... you could call it dusk... never got really dark it never got really light. During the summertime it was really light. But you had six months dusk and six months daylight. And ... it was ... a very gloomy place. Very gloomy place, mostly volcanic rock. Keflavik, Iceland since closed, it was a NATO air base ... and it was ... very, very cold. And we used to have Charlie condition ...which was a complete whiteout. And you couldn't go outside, �couldn't see anything. It was ... a scary place, but after a while it became home, and we felt safe there, and after a while you just didn't want to leave. That was two years. lane: Two years. Where were you stationed after that? Dubbiosi: Stationed after that, I had less than two years, about 18 months left in the service, so the military decided instead of putting me in one particular duty station, they would ... since they were short-handed on radar operators and air controllers, that they would ... put me in ... different places as needed so .. .for three months I got to spend on a ship called the U.S.S. Briscoe which was anti-submarine warfare springe-class destroyer ... and it was a sub-hunter put in ... the Persian Gulf, which ... you don't get too many subs out there. But they were there pretty ·much for their tactical data ... and we had something called NTDS, Naval tactical Data System, which was a highly advanced computer system. It could track multiple targets, aircraft missiles, things like that, and that's why it was there. So we used to get overflown by Iranian F4's every once in a while ...and we'd lock on them and they'd lock on us and we'd play our little game until you know someone got tired and decided to go home. It was ... that was that. The rest of the time I got to go to ... Fasfaps, the Capes, and ... Virginia Beach, Virginia ... ! got stationed in different places all over the United States for short periods of time. And all over the world ... Korea ... Lagis and the Azores ... Rhoda, Spain .. .ltaly, places like that. Diego Garcia, lot of fun, all the hot spots in the world. (laughter). lane: ... Now you said at this point ... you only had 18 months left ...was there a reason you decided not to continue your service? Dubbiosi: I got married very young and had a baby girl. .. and ... she had decided to ... that I shouldn't stay in the military so I decided to get out. lane: And ... once you first got out of the service what did you do immediately afterwards? Dubbiosi: Immediately afterwards, I went out and got a job as a security guard, and I watched furs .. .fur coats and night and made sure nobody stole anything. And ... l had a day shift, and during that day shift, somebody approached me ... and ...handed me his business card and said would you like to sell cars? And ... it was hard not to ... when I found out I could be paid ... you know after making $900,000 a month in the Navy, l...looked into it and ... it was $1,000 a week and a free company car and I got to get dressed up in a fancy suit so ... hard to turn down. So I took the job, and been doing it ever since. lane: Great. Well...thanks for ...just want to say thank you for ... the interview today, it's a bright sunny day. And this concludes the interview for Appalachian State University. Dubbiosi: Thank you. �Lane: Thank you. End tape. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/d20f618e0fc76650525911db6db92e7a.mp3 d8b1a811815e0aa7663cc6a651df8bdf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Dubbiosi, Stel Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Lane, Samantha Interview Date 2/6/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:12:33 File name 2013_063_Dubbiosi_Stel_interview 2013_063_Dubbiosi_Stel_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stel Dubbiosi, 6 February 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lane, Samantha Dubbiosi, Stel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 5 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Dubbiosi, Stel Veterans Cold War United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Stel Dubbiosi originally wanted to go into the Air Force, but became a Radar Air Control Operation Specialist in the Navy. He never saw combat and served during the Cold War. He was stationed in Keflavik Iceland for a year. Keflavik Iceland Orlando Radar Air Control Operation Specialist Stel Dubbiosi https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/88f95986a099fdaa7887f71cb59dcfd1.pdf ee1404c580149b0b5fdb456d63ba403b PDF Text Text 3 . 2.0V ^ Chris Garner Dr. Browning Military History Interview Transcription Chris: Hello this is Chris Garner here with SPC Seth Crawley on Thursday March 3 2011 in Boone, NC. This interview is part of a requirement for Dr. Browning's Military History course. Chris: Alright for the record SPC Crawley when were you born? SPC: I was born November 25 1987 Chris: So you were how old when you enlisted? SPC: I was 19, just turned 19 Chris: Ok, ok and which branch did you enlist? SPC: Army National Guard Chris: Alright and your current rank? SPC: I'm a specialist Chris: Alright and where did you serve? SPC: Baghdad, 20 minutes south of Baghdad....for 10 months Chris: What exactly did you join for, what was your reasoning? SPC: I've always kinda wanted to do something with the military I applied to go to West Point, Annapolis, which is the Naval Academy and just didn't have the grades good enough for that and then my parents got a divorce so I needed someway to pay for college and what other better way to do it than do the military Chris: Why did you pick the Army as your branch? SPC: To tell you the truth I really don't know... I was young and dumb and didn't look at anything else. My roommate joined before I did and got back from basic training and started talking to me about it and since it's the national guard I'm getting state and federal benefits which is about the most you can get with doing the military so that's why I went that way or that route Chris: Ok, tell me about your boot camp and training experiences �SPC: Ha, I left to go to boot camp February 21st of 2007 in Fort Seal, Oklahoma. I did OSET which is one station training basically 16weeks of basic training. We did BRM, drill and ceremony, you can name it, we did it. It was cold, hot, rain and snow all in one day kinda... it was tough, very tough not being able to talk to your family and friends and that's really the first time I've ever been away that long of time by myself being young I struggled with it at first, but once you get kinda used to it its just another thing. Chris: Why you were there, do you remember you drill instructors? Or now that your back from basic? SPC: I mean I know I could look at em and tell you "hey that's my drill sergeagnt" but their names the only drill sergeant I remember was DSG McCullah, because he was the meanest. Chris: Ha, ok...how did you get through basic, I know its kind of a long time? SPC: Laid low, didn't talk much. My drill sergeant didn't even know who I was until about the fourth week of basic training, he didn't even know I was in his Platoon to tell you the truth. Chris: haha, alright of your actual army experiences, which war did you serve in? SPC: Operation Iraqi Freedom and I was there from 2009 to 2010. Chris: Ok, and where exactly did you go....you said? SPC: I was about 20 to 25 minutes south of Baghdad right off of NSR Tampa Chris: Ok, what was your first day arriving there like? SPC: hot and nerve racking. We landed, I road a C141 from Kuwait into Baghdad the plane basically didn't even stop when we landed, they just let down the back door and we jumped off, it was like a turn and burn and there we were. I didn't know where I was, what I was getting into, and I didn't know if I was going to have people shooting at me soon as I got off the plane or it was gonna be like a vacation where I was at, didn't really know what I was gettin into at the time. I mean, just like anything else you kinda get accustomed to it. Just do your thing Chris: Alright, what was your thing? What was your job while you were there? SPC: The first half of the tour I was my PSG Driver and then the 2nd half of the tour I was the lead vehicle gunner and I had a SOcal. M2. We stayed on a JSS base, which is a joint security station, basically what that means is we had my battery because I'm in field artillery was on a base or a JSS I should say with another Iraqi company and �we did full spectrum operations, we did security, tower guard, ran patrols, convoy security, you name it we about did it. Anything from cleaning the FOB to going and knocking down doors, that's what we did Chris: Well, tell me a couple of your most memorable experiences while you were there? SPC: I remember one of the first missions we went out on, we went and there was supposed to be a weapons cache at this house that the Al Queda took over and supposedly there was a bunch of 155 rounds there, RPGs, pressure plates anything and we were supposed to clear that and I remember walking in and it was a really big house and there wasn't anybody there...they and been gone for a while but I remember seeing hooks with nooses hanging up and little children's shoes and books, everything scattered around. Apparently from what the Iraqi officer that was in charge of the company that we normally went out on missions with told us that they killed almost every IP which is Iraqi Police officer that was in that village either tortured them or hung them and buried them in the middle of the court yard. I remember going around and looking and I could literally pick up bones like femurs and stuff of humans, it was, it was an eye opening experience and another memorable moment I remember (snicker) I got hit by an IED we had, thankfully it was from what we can put together it was controlled by phone because we had our dukes on and rhinos and dukes a jammer so it jammed the radio frequency it didn't go off until we got by, but it was still close enough to get your attention. We got mortared, got rocketed, basically about anything you can think of it happened other than, we got small arms fire, but no like direct fire, basically just shootin and run, and hidin. Chris: So the unit you with, you guys didn't take on any casualties did you? SPC: No, but we actually did have a casualty not with us our LT that had just got promoted from butter bar to first LT he was with another unit and he was meeting with some lAs and some Iraqi civilians to get intel and a guy wearing a suicide vest come up in the middle of the circle and blew himself up and killed him, but that's the only person that I had any type of contact with that I knew that died. Chris: Ok, on maybe a lighter note, were you awarded any medals or citations for your service or your time? SPC: I got an ARCOM, Army Accommodation Medal, (snicker) I got a master driver for driving over 500 miles, I got an army achievement medal, um... that's basically about it, nothing too outstanding. Chris: Alright, while you were there how did you stay in touch with your family and friends? SPC: Over the SKYPE and the frequent phone call every now and then. I would email, didn't do too much writin because by the time, if I wrote a letter to somebody �I could basically tell them by the time it got there, it would take almost 2 weeks, sometimes a month before it would get there...so stayed away from the writing, but I would probably talk to my mom and my dad at least once a week, tell them I was ok. Chris: What was the food like, while you were there? SPG: Terrible, I would rather eat the sheeks food than have to eat... we, since we were on such a small base we had a MKT which is basically on kitchen on wheels and the cooks were not doin the best job and I'm still suffering from that to this day with my digestive system... so it wasn't the best, that's for sure. Chris: How often did you have MREs, was that just when you were on the field, or in the field? SPC: I basically stripped MREs down and got the candy out of them, you eat one for lunch for about a week and that's about all you can do. I just quit eating lunch. Chris: What about supplies, did you have plenty of supplies? SPC: Oh yeah, we had anything you could think of... I carried a combat load had everything but frag grenades....flash bangs, smoke, carried 270 rounds, my M4 the M2,1 mean we carried anything from flash bangs to two cases of Gatorade when we went out on missions, but we always had supplies, that was never an issue Chris: When you weren't running a mission how did people entertain themselves? SPC: Goofin off or workin out, I worked out a lot to relieve, get rid of built up hostility and anger, it was a good way of doin it. Played basketball, we made us a basketball court, made us a volleyball court since they have an abundance of sand over there. You can be surprised what you can come up with, with so much time on your hands. Chris: Were there any kind of pranks you guys would pull on each other? SPC: I had a mouse trap put on my computer one time and I didn't know it.. I come in from a mission one day and I put my hand on my mouse pad to like wake my computer up like I did every other day and somebody thought it would be cute to put a mouse trap that was set on my mouse pad and it nailed me, but be assured I got him back (laughs) I promise. Chris: What about the officers? What did you think about them? How were they? SPC: They were, I liked all of my officers except one and I'm not going to get into all the details about that because that's not my place nor my rank, but the only thing I didn't like about it, about him, was he would never listen to his soldiers. And the bad thing about it was is he was my PL and he wouldn't, it was always his way or the �highway, he never would listen, but that was the only issue we ever had out of any of our officers. All the rest of them, you couldn't ask for anybody better. We even had a change of command while we were over there and it was right in the middle of the tour, we went from our previous captain, Captain Bowls and Captain Gill you would of never thought we had a change of command..it was smooth sailing, I was impressed, I thought it was gonna go worse than it did but I was very, very surprised and I was happy, I was very happy. Chris: What did you do on leave, I know you get a 2 week leave? SPC: I went, I came back up here to Boone saw some of my friends, I went down to Wilmington, NC for a couple days, spent some time with my family, spent some time with my girlfriend, at the time, basically just hung out... I got a tattoo (laughs) of my fist holding my dogtags up saying OIF 2009-2010. Drank some, that's about it...had a good time. Didn't want to go back that's for sure. Chris: After your leave, how much longer did you have? SPC: I was the 2nd chalk to go out on leave so basically I was there a month before I went home to go on leave and when I got back I was there for another 8 and a half months. I didn't leave again. I didn't go on RR, because you can go on RR down to Kuwait its like for 3 and a half 4 days you can go do that, like 3 or 4 people got to do that and go on leave, but didn't have enough rank to do that apparently....so its all good. Chris: Once you got back when did you return to school? SPC: I got back, I left December 1st of 2009 I got back January 24th of 2010 so I didn't have I got back to late to start that semester so I started this past fall was actually my first semester going back to school. I did take a summer class to kind of get back in the groove of studying and stuff over this past summer, but my first full semester was fall of 2010. Chris: Ok, and you said your National Guard so your education is supported by GI Bill? SPC: Yes it is. Chris: Tell me about the friendships you made since you've been in the service. SPC: You'd be surprised who you can become friends with you think the people you'd never even think about talking to, would all of a sudden become some of your best friends, people you can count on, when your put in a stressful situation like that being put on guard 24hrs a day, 365days a year and your just constantly on edge and on A game youd be surprised of how good of friends you make with some people because I mean the guy to the left and right of you has your back and literally �they got your back, I mean its some friendships I know I'm not even trying to make a career out of the military, I'm doing my time and I'm doing my six years getting schooled paid for and I'm getting out, but I know that even after I get out I'm still going to be friends with 95% of the guys Chris: Talk a little bit about your military experience, did your military experience influence your thinking about the war or the military in general? SPC: Can you repeat that? Chris: Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the military in general? You going over there? Did it have any kind of... SPC: When I went over there I had a pre conceived notion anybody that watches the news has a pre conceived notion about war when you are actually put into it it's a way differnet outlook, the stuff that they cover on tv is only a 4th of a fraction of a percent of what really goes on, and I don't think that's right I think people should know, I think people should know what happens, what goes on from day to day and not just in Iraq I think it should be all over the country, since they are actually paying for this to go on so I feel like they should know whats going on, to a certain extent, I mean I know that OPSEC and stuff like that you gotta keep quiet about some certain things I understand that but I think they should broadcast more of what goes on, what they can broadcast I should say cause like I said I mean it's the tax payers money that's going to do all that and it's a lot of money involved in war. As on my outlook I come... are you talking about like how the war affected me? Chris: Right SPC: It changed my outlook a significant amount, I've had some problems since I've gotten back like anybody that's been deployed it can be anything from having an upset stomach everyday to having some major problems I mean I have friends that went over there with me that have flashbacks almost everyday, I have them to an extent. But, I feel like I mean I don't feel like I know I grew up a lot, a lot and you have to because I mean if you don't, if you don't except what you're doing and really pay attention you're talking about dealing with your life. It just makes you appreciate things a lot better I should say. Chris: Is there anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to add, anything that I didn't ask that has your mind kind of stirring? SPC: let me think...I think that anybody that joins the military especially in todays time I feel like they should be deployed, atleast do something because the way I look at it is I would, I would at first when I joined I didn't want to go nowhere I just wanted to get my money, do my thing, go to drill once a month, AT in the summer, do that for 6 years and I'm done, but after I went over seas I feel like everybody that joins the military should do it, I mean its what you sign your name on the dotted line �for, to serve and defend our country. So I don't feel like people, I mean I know countless people that just, when we found out we were getting ready to get deployed just started coming up with some of the craziest stuff to try and get out of it and I don't, if you're going to do that then you really need to consider your career in the military for sure, because you're taking the easy way and that's not right to me. That actually pisses me off, to an extent because I mean I had a chance of staying home I had a 2year college first program and I waived that to go with my friends because I couldn't of thought of even begin to wrap my head around the fact that something happened to them and me not be there and I don't ever want to go back, but I'd never change it, I wouldn't take it back for the world. It makes me who I am today, that's for sure...that's probably about it. Chris: Alright well I appreciate your time and I guess that wraps up the interview with SPG Crawley and thanks again for your time. SPC: No problem � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3f71607f2798f2af05b965335601f085.mp3 c34c51200f816df9ddbc124bfd2c85c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Crawley, Seth Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Garner, Chris Interview Date 3/3/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:23:55 File name 2013_063_Crawley_SethW_interview 2013_063_Crawley_Seth_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Seth Crawley, 3 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Garner, Chris Crawley, Seth Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 7 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Crawley, Seth Iraq War, 2003-2011 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource SPC Seth Crawley is a specialist in the National Guard and was stationed in Baghdad as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was there for about a year fighting the terrorism of Al Qaeda. He explains that it has been hard adjusting back to regular life, especially on his digestive system and mental health. Al Queda Baghdad National Guard Operation Iraqi Freedom SPC Seth Crawley https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f39e6d0f0798b12947d599a99323d3a5.pdf 3441a36ca56ec634e5c766d89afd1fe4 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Staff Sergeant Randall "R. J." Bowers March 13, 2011 Boone, North Carolina Michael Braga: Alright, this is Michael Braga, here interviewing R. J. Bowers. Staff Sergeant R.J. Bowers. It is March thirteenth, Sunday, and we are at R.J.'s house. This is for the Oral History project for 3824, Military History. Um... so R.J. if you could just state your name and your date of birth. Randall "R.J." Bowers: Alright, I'm Randy Darrel Bowers Jr.; I'm called "R.J." My Birthday is July 27, 1985. Braga: Alright um... so, what was your rank and branch of the military? Bowers: Yeah I was in the Army, and I started out as a Private but I got out as a Staff Sergeant, which is an E-6. Braga: Alright, and I assume you enlisted, do you remember why you enlisted? Bowers: It was right after 9/11 and I was getting out of high school, my grandpa was in, my great grandpa was in and most of my family was in the military so I thought it was just the best thing to do Braga: Yeah, Alright. How about your training, where were you trained? Bowers: Actually, I joined at 17 and my parents had to sign release papers to release custody of me to the army and I left my junior year of high school I graduated that year left that summer for basic training in Ft. Leonard Wood Missouri and also, AIT which is your Army school in Fort Leonard Wood Missouri. T» 4 �Braga: Alright, Do you remember... Do you have any experiences that you remember from that or...? Bowers: Well it was... I just remember, like everybody does, I guess, sitting there your first week in thinking "oh," you know, "Jesus what did I sign up for?" Cause you know the Drill Sergeants are yelling and this that and the other, but you know you look back after its all over and it was kind of like a fun experience in your life. Braga: So, you served in the Iraqi war right? Or were you in Afghanistan or Iraq? Bowers: No, Afghanistan. Braga: Afghanistan, where exactly did you go? Bowers: Well I was in mostly the south east and south west, I never really went up north much. I was there between, I think, May of '04 to June of '06 And I was there it was a little either under or over two years I can't remember. But, I was part of a route clearance package which is... were 21 bravo was the nomenclature for... all we do is we go around and look for lEDs or roadside bombs. Braga: Alright, cool. So, did you see any combat? Bowers: Yeah I mean everybody sees a little bit especially where the combating was. We're looking, you know for... We're sent before most people because we have the equipment to locate the lEDs like we have special vehicles, like we have the RG-31, The Husky and the Meer Cat and the Buffalo These vehicles are Designed to locate lEDs You Know and find them and help us either blow them in place or disarm them. Braga: Alright, Cool Cool. So do you remember any particular experiences there that you want to share or anything like that? �Bowers: Oh yeah I... there's tons of things you remember, you know most people want to talk about the good things. Ah... you know the people I was... we were actually imbedded me and like, my squad which was only ten guys we were imbedded with about 150 Afghans. So, you know living with them and among them were definitely an experience or whatever. They were a trip... They would always... I don't know, I'm trying to think of the right word to say... they were kind of... stupid. (Laughter) They ah... one time, one thing I always tell people was how most of the time I was worried about getting shot by them more than the enemy. Cause you know one story comes to mind we were on a patrol and it was, like I said, my squad and two... I don't know it was like a company and like a couple other platoons out of another company and we had about 75 guys in front of us and about 100-150 behind us and one of the guys behind us tripped and shot himself in the leg. And when he shot himself the guys in front of us just heard gunshots and so they... you know just fell down and started shooting in all directions and so of course you know we fell... we jumped down cause we were trying to figure out what they were shooting at and the Afghans behind us heard them shooting and so they started shooting. So, we're in a (wadi?) which is like an old river bed or a cut out and we're seeing them shoot at each other even though they know they're there. And so once we got our terps to get on the radio and get the commanders of both elements to quit shooting at each other there were like seven dead and like 15 or 16 wounded or something like that I mean it was just ridiculous they... there was definitely took a long time for them to get the grasp of not trying to shoot each other (laughter) Braga: (Laughter) yeah, why do you think that was? Bowers: Aw they're just... I don't know their training I guess wasn't as... definitely not as extensive as the U.S. military, but they have I guess... Most of them are young. Like here, most �people are at least over 18, there you know it wasn't uncommon to see like a 16 year old kid or whatever, but you know it's only two years but it makes a big difference. Braga: You mentioned that they had about 150 people how many people did you guys have in your company? Bowers: Oh well see I mean in my company we had, you know about 150 but we were broken up into 10 man groups and sent all over the country. Braga: Oh yeah? Cool. Um... Well how about your life while you were there, I mean were you able to stay in touch with your family? Bowers: It was kind of tough because being part of an RCP you're always on the move cause that's your job, it's to travel, you know, travel the roads and look for the lEDs wherever you're needed at the time. EOD which is... they... At this point Mr. Bowers turned off the recording device to collect his thoughts. Bowers: Alright, EOD is an Unexploded... They deal with the ordinance like you know if we find shells like any kind of unexploded ordinance, you know anything from mines to old claymores to... you know, anything just anything that needs to be blown up they're called to blow them up, but since like there's a scarcity of EOD guys in Afghanistan they'd call us which is the combat engineers. They'd call us because we had C-4 and TNT and stuff like that mostly just... mostly C-4 but you know they call us and we'd blow it. So we were always on the move we didn't really stay in one spot and most of the places we were there wasn't a lot of communication with the outside world. �Braga: Yeah, urn so, you didn't really... did you have like an operating base that you would go back to or...? Bowers: Uh, no the ah... we had FOBs which are forward operating bases... F-O-Bs you know? Braga: Yeah... Bowers: And ah... We... the most ones we left you know um FOB Solerno, FOB Ripley, FOB Pacemaker, FOB Vegas. You know those are some of the FOBs that we were on missions... missions out of. And they were all they were really for is so you can go like refuel and get, you know supplies, ammo whatever you needed and head back out Braga: So there weren't a lot in the way of amenities or anything like that? Bowers: No like we're getting... we pretty much lived out of our trucks or Humvees, our vehicles, you know we had all our stuff, it was always packed up. Slept on the ground under the trucks or in the trucks you know we didn't... Braga: So you were on the move a lot... Bowers: Oh yeah, we were on the move you know, 90% of the time Braga: Yeah? And you said earlier, you were usually operating ahead of... Bowers: Yeah Braga: Of everybody else...? Bowers: Yeah, the vehicles we were in, like this is... it was called a Rout Clearance Package because it was multiple vehicles lined up in the package in a convoy the first one would either be a Husky or a Meer Cat. And what this is it's a one man vehicle and it has... it has these plates that fold down and scan the road when you're driving and they're metal detectors. And when they scan over something metal they spray paint in that spot where they detected the metal, �there's a computer inside that tells the driver. It's a one manned vehicle and it looks kind of funny it's made by the same people that make like Indy Cars or whatever, it's made to... Braga: Really? Bowers: Yeah, it's made to be blown apart and actually, when it is blown apart it's not a big deal because the sections are made in such, where they're kind of like a big, giant Lego. You know you can just hook something on, take something off blow this off, blow that off. And stuff like that, so it makes it... a lot easier when they're like that. When that vehicle, say it detects metal on the ground it pulls forward and the next vehicle behind it's called an RG-31 it's like a... up armored SUV... you know it looks kind of like a big Tahoe on steroids it has like port holes and a turret on top, well it pulls up also with the, with the you know the Husky or Meer Cat to provide security to the front. Well, the Humvees and stuff they... provide rear security and then the Buffalo, what the Buffalo is it's like a $1.6 million truck, it's 26 tons it has three axels, it's actually a Mac truck with an independent axle on it and then the armor is built around it. It has a 30 foot arm with three cameras one of the cameras is in the arm. So what it does is it pulls up to the... place where the paint is sprayed on the ground and you just start digging, and then if you find something you try to dig it up, you know, you try to see what it is, you know if you can... in certain parts of Afghanistan they use certain methods to blow Americans up, I guess for lack of a better words you know, they use... maybe in southern Afghanistan they use A/T Mines that were pressure detonated and in eastern Afghanistan they used... they might use a A/T mines that is command detonated. There's different kinds of detonations they can use and if you can figure out what kind they're using and prevent them from blowing it up... it's even better for you. n f �But once you found out what kind it was and if it wasn't too dangerous you'd just, you know, dig it up, disarm it and then take it with you to wherever you're going or just blow it somewhere or just save it to blow it later, but if you were kind of unsure, thought there were like a secondary device. Cause towards the end there they were getting pretty smart, they'd ah leave an IED out or like one we could see, like trying to just hide it a little bit and so when we found it we were like "aw we found it!" and so we would go up to... you know, either disarm it or take it apart or do whatever, that that would be a dummy IED and they'd blow up other lEDs in the vicinity cause they knew our protocol. They knew that we were, you know, going to try to stay off the IED X amount of meters, or whatever so, you know... Braga: Yeah Bowers: They... they're a lot smarter than people give them credit for, that's for sure. Braga: Huh, yeah... So... How about your supplies, your supply lines and things like that? were you guys... you were operating ahead of everybody else, so were you kept up with MREs or did you have fresh food or... ? Bowers: Uh Actually it's kind of it's you know, I'm not looking for a pity party or anything, but there were a couple times where, you know we'd have trips that we'd have to go into villages and buy goats, buy local food and we would slaughter the goats or whatever we had to do. You know we had MREs but you know, two years on MREs could kind of turn your stomach. Braga: Yeah, I'll bet. Bowers: And you know it wasn't that bad you know there was a couple of times we had air drops, which was kind of cool, just to be a part of, you know... The C-130 would fly over us and drop you know, supplies out the back and we'd like, you know throw smoke. They'd drop it out and we'd go get the supplies and stuff. �Braga: Alright... So were there any... any events that were... particularly humorous or anything like that? Bowers: Oh, Oh yeah. Tons, tons, tons of... and that's what keeps you going too you know the funny stuff. All the Afghans they, you know... 90% of the country, well no I'm not going to say 90, like 85% probably don't really mind we're there and like us being there; they like that we overrun the Taliban (dog barks) and stuff like that.. .and so... (Dog barks again, Sergeant Bowers stops and says to dog) Jeb... So,... it's kind of cool and they're always doing... and I guess some of its kind of sick humor... the kids... you can get them to do anything for a piece of candy... we'd get them to box each other and stuff like that or... (As an aside to me) You know I could send you some of these pictures, that's an A/T mine, that's one we dug up. Braga: Oh, that'd be cool, yeah. Bowers: yeah and I'm going to try... here's a 105 shell, and this is what I was telling you about the thing that goes up front, this is a husky, see it? We hit an IED with it, see it's made to blow apart, so you can just take those two pieces off and put two new pieces on. Braga: Oh wow, that's cool. Bowers: So you know I can send you some pictures of like a route clearing package, if you'd like. You know the Afghans or even like, the even the Afghan Army guys... that have like scopes on their AKs but instead of it being like a cross like a normal scope would it'd be an X. And so they wouldn't have it lined up or anything it was just more for looks than anything. Or... You know, our sense of like being friends... we're like buddies, we might... hug or something, but the Afghans... they don't have like a personal bubble. Braga: Yeah �Bowers: Like... Kissing, holding hands, you know, a lot of stuff we would... consider homosexual they do and it's not homosexual at all it's just their culture. You know, there's tons of stuff they do, just, it definitely, it's like going back in time almost, going back to biblical days, cause you know I remember rolling into villages and the they thought we were the Russians... Braga: Really Bowers: Yeah, they thought we were the Russians, and you know the Russians hadn't been in Afghanistan in 15- 20 years or something like that, so... (Laughter) Braga: Yeah, 25-30 Bowers: Yeah, so I mean so to go into a village and someone like the village elder he'll come out and like he's pretty upset and stuff and we can't figure it out because you know, nine times out often when you went to a new village or something like that, especially, we spent a lot of time on the Pakistan border, you could tell if it was a friendly village or a not-so-friendly village and... with this one we just couldn't, we didn't know what was going on, we thought maybe something had just happened cause the guys was, you know, pretty upset and our terp was telling us that he thought we were the Russians and they had cut off all their beards and stuff like that and we were like, "Nah, tell them we're here... for helping, we're here as friends and once he found out we weren't the Russians, and you could tell these people were dirt poor any way like he was wearing literally rags like had, you know, had his best goat slaughtered and brought us goat milk and cheese and they eat like a big type of pita bread and rice and stuff and we, I mean we had a good time with them, we gave them like water and MRE stuff to compensate him for the goat even though, you know, we really didn't want him to kill his goat but, you know, It's just, you know... n n �One incident I remember we were refueling at a FOB Oregon E and over the radio the guys at the front gate said... there's six Afghans out here with a couple goats, they want to come in here and sacrifice them. And you know it took a minute or two before the company command to get back to them because they'd never run into that problem before. You know there, they were in a... it was kind of hostile out where Oregon E is and so... they ended up letting the guys in the base and slaughtering the goats for a sacrifice or whatever to try and you know keep the peace with everybody around us but (Showing me a picture) Right here's how far, that tire weighs 300 pounds. Braga: Good lord! Bowers: That's how far it was blown from the vehicle Braga: That's like 60 feet Bowers: Yeah, and no one was hurt in it, and this is another and like... when I told you They're really smart... like right here, this is a saw blade and like have you ever had the battery and you put a wire here and a wire here and you hit to the light and it turns the light on? Braga: Yeah Bowers: Well this is the same thing they're doing with an IED they got a battery source a wire going to it, going to the IED and they have this and they have this kind of hidden and so this is hooked to one wire and there's this metal piece hooked to another and when something rolls over it that saw blade bends and touches it, completes the circuit and blows up the IED Braga: Smart Bowers: Oh yeah, so I mean there definitely not stupid people, this is the Buffalo I was telling you the 1.6 million 26 ton... I did that, I got us stuck for two weeks (the Buffalo is stuck in very deep mud). But... here's us... I got tons of pictures for you. Page �Braga: So what were your dates of deployment? Bowers: Aww that's what I was trying to remember, I know I was there for 23 months and I was pretty sure I either left and it was either I left in May or I come back in May and I either left in June or come back in June I can't remember, you know, but we were only supposed to be there for like 15 months but the Route Clearance package was fairly new then and so... they ended up extending us. Braga: Yeah? And you're still in the military right? Bowers: Yeah I... well not, not really in I... they pay for my school and stuff and I plan to go to OCS I finish school this semester, so I'm going to go back to the army. Braga: Cool, Cool. So were there any... are there any final thoughts that you want us to know about your time in Afghanistan? Bowers: I don't know, just... It was definitely... life changing. Especially when we'd role up on old Russian bases and like actually see the entire base, and I know this is going to be cliche, but saying like you know, the old Rocky movies like seeing an old base that looked... I'll show I got a picture here real quick, that looked like that and see actually old MIG fighters, like graveyards of them. That were still there that are, no one flies them, you can't do anything with them there's just weeds growing around them and stuff like that, like it's like they just vanished they left, you know left whole bases intact. You know, when we have to pull out of a base or like a FOB or something where it's no longer necessary we'd blow everything or destruct, so no one can use it to their advantage but us. You know the Russians just up and left. Braga: Yeah Bowers: And you know when I say 'up and left' I mean we'd, you'd find all kinds of crazy stuff and some... of it you just scratch your head like man I can't believe they just left all this, you Page �know old tanks and stuff like that and Afghan people if it's not bolted down or can be moved its.. They'll take it they're like the best scavengers in the world as far as I'm concerned I mean. We'd had a Humvee get blown up and... had to come back two days later to try to just retrieve the skeleton of it and whatever we could, and it wasn't that bad, it just blow off like the back end of it and when we got back there was nothing left but the actual frame of the Humvee. Braga: Wow Bowers: So they had taken the tires, all the metal, everything that was potentially... you could take off they took off. Braga: Impressive. Bowers: You know... when I got... you know I went to drill sergeant school and stuff like that so I wanted to you know... Braga: Yeah, well tell us about that; tell us about drill sergeant school. Bowers: Uh, Drill sergeant school is about four months long or whatever or no it's about three months long or two months long actually. It's... yeah, it's a two and a half months long and... it's just like going through basic it's just basic training all over again. You go through basic training except... once you go through the phase like the phases in basic training, you have like, you know, red phase... blue phase... (To himself) red, white, blue... No, red phase, white phase, blue phase, and then you have your like gold and black phase or something like that. Braga: What... what's the difference between those? Bowers: Well the phases like the first; red phase is like... the kind of like shock and awe. You know when you're coming in and you're getting yelled at and if one of y'all screw up the group screws up, you know if you mess up then everybody pays for it. They're trying to get you to work number one as a team and also get you to realize, you know the whole break you down and Page �build you up thing, that happens in red phase, you know they make it where you're tired they keep you, you know, you keep them awake, work them out a whole lot they'll do stuff like that. And then... then it's kind of also like a think of pride you know, if you give them something to work towards, like you know, they're in red phase which would be the hardest phase they'll have no... they can't even use the bathroom without asking permission. You know if you give them.. .you tell them 'hey ya'll have done good for two weeks, two or three weeks, you know and they graduate to blue phase then they know they've got to step up. They get just a little bit more responsibility, you know they get a little bit more freedom, not a whole lot more, just a little bit more and each phase they... they turn more and more into a soldier. Braga: Cool... um so, in your drill sergeant training was it more difficult than basic training...? Bowers: Um see and that's... that's the thing and people when you talk to them they'll talk about the game... and that's all it is, it's a game you know, when I was in basic training I didn't realize it until later, until we were about to graduate and everybody does, that it's a game to the drill sergeants, you know, you'll catch them... if you really pay attention, you'll catch them snickering, or laughing at some of the stuff that... you know that some of... y'all are doing and some of it might be to teach y'all a lesson or something like that... or you know just... whatever, what have you. you know they're not... in your eyes they're like a super human when you're in basic training, but once you complete basic training, towards the end you start realizing that they're normal too, that they're just like you.. That they're... It's kind of like you know when you're younger you thought your dad was, you know, superman... Braga: Yeah Bowers: And as you got older you realize he's just, you know he's still superman to you but he's just a regular guy, you know he can get hurt just as well as the next guy. It's the same thing with Page �your drill sergeants and you learn the game, you know, you learn how to take orders and not take it personally and that, I guess that's... especially for young guys, you know me being one of them with authority, you know I had a whole lot of problems with it, and... that's one thing that basic training taught me to do was you know respect authority and... just, even if you don't agree with it or whatever, drive on and do it, do whatever you have to do and so when you go back for, especially as a drill sergeant, you know the game, and it's kind of like a you know a lose-lose situation for them because they know you know the game. You know when in basic training when a drill sergeant is yelling at you or like busting your balls or something and tells you to get down and do pushups you get down and start cranking out pushups till you can't move until you know, you're shaking and convulsing. Well, He can't... physically make you do a push up so if you just get down and crank out one or two pushups and then just stay in the push up position as long as it's the correct position you're in the right, you know. And this is something you don't know, or don't think of when you're younger either, you just want to... you're thinking 'do what he said by what he said' so you're push... you know when you're in drill sergeant school as long as you're making an effort to do a push up you don't have to kill yourself you just have to do the right dorm, stay in the right position and stuff like that and they know you know the game, and once... you know they're senior drill sergeants training the drill sergeants, you know they... once they know you know the game they're not... it's not... going to be worth their time to fu... screw with you. You know so... it's once you know the game it's really hard but you know you just got to play the game and know... and be good at it. There's a method to all the madness, or whatever, you know, the things you didn't understand in basic training... you're like 'why did he make us do it?' 'Why do we have to do that?' 'That's so stupid' they Page �teach you actually some psychology behind it and you know the reason... there's a reason for everything. Braga: Well cool... so now... you said you're kind of still in the army are you training new recruits or...? Bowers: Oh no no no, when I... I said... kinda... they pay for my school. They pay for my school and they pay me to go to school, so I'm not really even in the army right now, but... Braga: But you are going back? Bowers: Yeah, I'm definitely going back. I went last week to talk to... my buddy, he's actually a recruiter. He's a guy I spent... the two years in Afghanistan with, he's a recruiter in Hickory now, and my brother just signed up for the army about a week ago so... and I went with him, and then I'm getting my OCS packet which is officer's candidate school packet ready. Braga: Great. Well I really appreciate you doing this man and... thank you so much, any final thoughts? Bowers: I'm trying to think and make sure I got everything for you, basic training, I was at Ft. Bragg before... from Ft. Leonard Wood, after I got through with my basic training, my AIT which is my... job school I was at Ft. Bragg before I went to Afghanistan Braga: Okay. Bowers: And... Braga: What other forts have you been to? Was it just Bragg? Bowers: Oh you pretty much you travel to all of them, you now I've been (Cell phone beeping) to Ft. Jackson, Ft. Bragg, Ft. Knox, Ft. Campbell... and yeah that's it... Germany. I was in Germany for a little bit but not, not very long. But, I'm trying to make sure I got everything for Page �you like (Shows a picture) There's an old Russian base, tell me that doesn't look like something out of Rocky. Braga: It kind of does (laughs) Bowers: And look they built like dams and all kinds of stuff and there's like street posts I mean it looks like they put a lot of time info this stuff. There's our pet hawk. Braga: Alright well... I guess that's it for the interview... So once again thank you. Bowers: Not a problem Braga: And... that's about it. Page � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/4ebf16f3440f9ea527b20f273d99cd36.mp3 e990ce35e7b0cdc4c5d02d0a1c2e4016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bowers, Randall "R.J." Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Braga, Michael Interview Date 3/13/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:25:13 File name 2013_063_Bowers_Randall_interview 2013_063_Bowers_RandallJ_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Randall "R.J." Bowers, 13 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Braga, Michael Bowers, Randall "R.J." Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 16 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Bowers, Randy Darrel, Jr. Veterans United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Randall Bowers joined the military when he was 17 and still in high school shortly after the Iraq War began. He went to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri and then Afghanistan where he searched for and dismantle IEDs. He later went on to become a drill sergeant and plans to return to the army after he finishes school. Afghanistan Army Staff Sergeant Fort Leonard Wood Missouri IED MRE Route Clearance Package https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/804f7fa00c184340d64a23453a5fdc58.pdf 3315bec35ca581d11627b53a76af5f09 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Nathan Bigger March 11, 2011 Gary, NC Dwayne Davidson: It is March 11, 2011. We're in Gary, North Carolina, in the home of the Bigger family. I am interviewing Nathan Bigger, former Navy. I am Dwayne Davidson, student at Appalachian State University and we will begin the oral history project now. Mr. Bigger, when and where were you born? Nathan Bigger: 1955, April in Knoxville, Tennessee. Davidson: And when did you join the military? Bigger: July, 1974. Davidson: ...What branch did you join and why? Bigger: United States Navy. ...I had been in a Naval Junior ROTC program in High School. ...I was, grew up in a military family. My Father was career Army and had always pretty much felt like I'd probably join the military at some point and through my exposure in the Naval Junior ROTC program in High SchooL.my interest in the Navy developed. Davidson: You said your Father was in the Navy, or, Army? Bigger: Yes. Davidson: What rank did he hold and where was he stationed? Bigger: When he retired, he was a Lieutenant Colonel, Infantry Paratrooper and was stationed all over the world, but...he was in different places. Fort Benning, Georiga, Fort Bragg, North Carolina-he did...well thats...I'll stop there. Davidson: Ok...was he involved in any combat? Bigger: Yes. He fought in World War II in North Africa and...Italy, Sicily and, and in Italy and he also fought in the Korean War. Davidson: Ok...how did your father being in the military impact your decision to join the Navy? Bigger: I grew up as an Army brat so I had alot of exposure to the military and...it just helped me give a, get a general feeling of family and, and belonging being part of the military. �Davidson: Can you describe your basic training or boot camp experience? Bigger: I enjoyed boot camp, quite a bit...I ended up coming out of...the Navy bootcamp down in Orlando, Florida as, I was elected company honor man by all the members of my company, which was quite a significant honor for me. And I really, I did enjoy bootcamp quite a bit. Davidson: Ok...after bootcamp where were you stationed? Bigger: My first-duty station was in Great Lakes, Illinois. I was transfered up there after bootcamp to attend Machinest Mate A-School. From there I was transferred to San Diego, California and served aboard a submarine tender for four months before moving on with my Naval different education programs. Davidson: Ok, what were your major responsibilities or jobs in the Navy? Like your MOS? Bigger: ...My...classifications were 42, 60...I shouldn't have tried to give you that I don't...! was an auxiliary man aboard a nuclear power submarine. I was a machinest mate and I was qualified to operate the oxygen generators on board. There were two different classifications for those and to be honest with you I cant...42 45 was one of 'em and I can't remember the other one. Davidson: Ok. How long did you serve in the Navy? Bigger: I was in for six years. Davidson: And what was your most lasting memory of those six years? Bigger: ...I guess it would be the comraderie and the friendships that I developed with the people that I served with. Especially once I got assigned to a crew on a submarine...you do become very tight and very, very connected to your crewmates on board a submarine. Davidson: ...Did you ever see combat? Bigger: No. Davidson: No? But you said you were on a submarine. Can you describe a, I guess a typical day in a submarine, on a submarine? Bigger: ....Typical day-starts with...I guess...I'll start with when you get outta your, outta your bunk and get ready to go serve your.... your watch station-go eat a meal, which, whichever time of day it is...you always have four meals a day on, on the submarine because we operated on a watch schedule that there was always a meal �being served before the next on coming watch would have to go take their watch station. So we'd gather together in the crew's mess and eat and...kinda get a feel for what had gone on while we had been asleep and then I'd go back to my watch station and, and get a turn over from the guy who had been on watch that I was relieving as to what went on in the compartment and with the operating equipment that we were monitoring and managing during our watch period and then I'd relieve him of the station and take over and start keeping the logs for the different equipment that was operating in the station, in the compartment and...just maintain the compartment, maintain the equipment, keep a watchful eye out for...any kind of equipment malfunctions or...flooding incidents, anything like that. And...at the end of my watch, I'd essentially do the same thing for the guy coming on that, that the guy that I replaced had done. I'd turn over the watch station to the next on coming man and then go get something to eat in the crew's mess. If it was the right time of day we'd get ready to watch movies after the evening meal, spend what free time we had reading, playing games in the crew's lounge. Sometimes go down into the lower level, the missle compartment and exercise. We had just barely enough space down there for a stationary bicycle and some, some weight equipment if...different members of the crew wanted to work out. You could run laps in missle lower level to, to help maintain your physical stamina and, and... get ready to go to bed and get ready to do the same thing all over again the next...after about a six hour break. Davidson: ...During what time period were you in a submarine? Bigger: ...Got assigned to the crew in 1976 and...Ieft the Navy in 1980 so I was on there for four years. Between 1976 and 1980. Davidson: You were in the submarine for four years? Bigger: No...the submarine that I was on was a ballistic missile submarine and we had, there were actually two crews assigned to each ballistic missile submarine. There's a blue crew and a gold crew and our tours of duty would consist of a...thirty day refit where we'd fly to wherever the submarine was based out of, I was based outta New London, Connecticut, it was the sub base that I was assigned to and the submarine that I was on operated out of Holy Lock, Scotland. So we would board an airplane out of New Haven, Connecticut and fly over to, to Glasgow, Scotland, ride a bus for about an hour and a half to get to the lock, Holy Lock where the subtender was and we'd wait about, usually about two days before the...the crew that had the boat would come in and we'd spend a week, they'd turn the boat over, spend five days turning the boat over to us, telling us about how the patrol went, giving us a breakdown of any machinery issues they had and then after they would, they left, we'd take over control of the boat. We'd spend a thirty day refit period where we would perform...maintenance, regularly scheduled maintenance on all of the equipment as well as repair anything that broke down while they were out, while the previous crew was out at sea that they couldn't repair while they were out on patrol. At the end of that thirty day period, we'd take the boat out for a quick sea trial to make sure everything was operating-functioning correctly. Come back in, do �a final stores load for a day or two, bringing on food stores. And then we'd pull away from the sub tender and head out to deep water and dive the boat and we'd stay submerged for...70 to 75 days. Davidson: Ok...and if my history is correct, this was during the Cold War... Bigger: That's correct. Cold War Era. Davidson: Did you, while under water, submerged, did you ever expect physical contact with the Soviet Union? Bigger: ...Did not expect it, did not want it. Our primary mission was to remain hidden...undetectable...so that nobody, I mean U.S. Navy would know the general area that we were patroling in because they would give us the assignments obviously, but we did not want the Soviets where we were, that would...defeat our mission of being a hidden, undetectable platform for launching...deterrent...nuclear weapons...We would have to deal almost everytime we went out to start a patrol, we would have to deal with a Soviet...fishing trailer or spy ship trail, trying to trail us as we would leave...when we'd leave the coastal waters of Scotland and head out into international waters, we would always pick up a Soviet trailer of some type that was outfitted with tracking equipment that would try to track us and see where we were headed, but once we would dive the ship we were always able to evade them and get away and get to our patrol area, undetected. Davidson: Ok. Being that the Cold War was vastly different than any other war the U.S. has been engaged in, did it feel, in your opinion did it feel like a combat situation that a soldier would feel today? Bigger: No, no there was no...I mean you, it, I think soldiers today that are in combat situations have a little bit better, maybe a better conceptual idea of what they're doing and why, well not why they're doing it, I knew why I, why we were doing what we were doing, but sometimes you never, you didn't really feel like you were making a contribution. You were just out punching holes in the ocean...while you were underway and not really accomplishing much of anything. I think today's soldiers, that are on a combat field...they can see their accomplishments in real time...when they're out fighting for a piece of ground or...an area of a country or trying to keep the...the enemy at bay. Davidson:...Did being in the middle of the ocean have a, an effect on the fear of war that maybe those who weren't in the military were feeling? Bigger: ...I don't know...I don't think so. I think we had a maybe a better idea of what the Cold War was all about or what was going on during the Cold War era than the average person in the general population did. Many many people didn't even know that we were out there doing what we were doing. I think the majority of the population didn't know that we were out there doing what we were doin, being on a �patrol at 72 days at a time, submerged not seeing the sun or the stars, or smelling of a fresh breeze of air. Most people didn't, they weren't even aware that was going on and, I think most people today are not aware that that's going, that's still going on today. Davidson: ....So, after, you said you did six years. What year were you discharged from the... Bigger: 1980. July 1980. Davidson: And was there a reason that you decided, not to continue on in the Navy? Bigger: Yeah, there was...I used to...board the, the bus in New London, Connecticut before we would drive to...New Haven or Hartford, rather to get on an airplane to fly over to Scotland and I would watch, I was single, I wasn't involved with anybody romantically for that period of time and I used to sit on the bus watching my crewmates who were saying goodbye to their families or...and I would be sitting on the bus crying watching them and their families crying because we knew we were gonna be gone from home for 95 to 100 days and wouldn't see eachother...so, the, I, I did not want to put someone else through the same thing, you know, a wife or a girlfriend I didn't wanna put them through what I was seeing my crewmates and their families going through, and, so I, it was mainly the family separation that I didn't wanna continue and...that was my main reason for not making a career out of the Navy. Davidson: Ok...what did you do after being discharged, leaving the Navy? Bigger: Initally I got a job working for the Department of Defense at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, New Hampshire working on submarines that were up there going through overhaul, long term like year, year and a half overhaul. Davidson: Ok. How is your time, how did your time in the Navy effect you to today or has it affected you? Bigger: Well 1 think it helped, it helped me tremendously from a...personal maturity point of view-helped me grow, as a person, as an individual, learn how to be on my own, care for myself...fulfill all of my own personal responsibilites, things that you don't normally have to do when you're living at home with your parents and not living on your own and making your own way. So it helped me grow alot and I developed some great friendships while I was in the military. Had some great, wonderful mentors that were ahead of me in the ranks...you know, just helping me grow as a person. Davidson: Are you still in contact with anyone that you served with? �Bigger: A few. I am with a few of them. I actually created a website on the internet for the boat I was on...and I've gotten contacts from hundreds of, of people who served aboard the Stonewall Jackson. Not all of them while I was on board, but I've also heard from a fair number of my former crewmates that were on the boat the same time I was through having set up the website and...getting emails from them. So yeah, I still hear from a fair number of them. Davidson: ...The Stonewall Jackson was that the name of the...submarine you were on? Bigger: Yes, USS Stonewall Jackson SSBN 634. Davidson: Is it still in commission? (cut off by answer) Bigger: She was decommisioned in 1995. Sad day. Davidson: Ok...do you think the Navy has changed since you left and if so how do you feel it has? Bigger: I think its mission has changed a little bit, not having the, the major adversary of the Soviet Union but still needing some sort of deterrent..available and capable, I know its, its missions as far as working with...insertion teams-ground forces and getting ground forces into...locations in a very covert and, and hidden way has grown since the collapse of the Soviet Union. So yeah I think their role has changed somewhat since I left the Navy. Davidson: Ok...what would you tell someone or what advice would you give someone who was interested in joining the Navy? Bigger: ...Get...get a college degree and get in the officer ranks. Davidson: Ok...is there anything else you would like to add? Bigger: No Davidson: Ok. Thank you very much. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/c8db7455b644781fd0cab399814efedd.mp3 f859692d4dccb96da437212251f9ad2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bigger, Nathan Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Davidson, Dwayne Interview Date 3/11/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:18:03 File name 2013_063_Bigger_Nathan_interview 2013_063_Bigger_Nathan_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nathan Bigger, 11 March 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Davidson, Dwayne Bigger, Nathan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 6 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Bigger, Nathan Veterans Cold War United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Nathan Bigger served in the US Navy during the Cold War Era. He went to Mate A-School in New Hampshire and then spent 6 years patrolling underwater aboard the submarine Stonewall Jackson. He explains that many people had no idea what was going on during the Cold War, and at times even the people serving the military were not sure what they were doing, or what their contribution was. He decided to leave the navy in order to have a family because he saw how hard it was for his crew-mates to leave their wives and children for months at a time. Cold War Era Mate A-School Nathan Bigger Stonewall Jackson submarine US Navy https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/dff9321e27199cf7398b613ea00b6f50.pdf 81567ee782ac6704782b4f856d85a81c PDF Text Text Daniel Hartsell Oral History Project U.S. Military History, MW 11-12:15 Interviewer: Daniel Hartsell Date: March 8, 2010 Interviewee: Nick Bailey DOB: 12/30/1977 Location: residence of both persons, 166 Carriage Lamp ct. Boone, NC Interview for Oral History Project, assigned by Dr. Judkin Browning, History Dept. Appalachian State University Boone, NC Which branch of service were you involved with? I was enlisted in the Marine Corps. What was your rank? When I ended my service I was a sergeant, or an E5. What is E5? My enlisted rank. Where did you serve? I served in a number of different countries. I lived in Japan for a little over a year. I hit every continent but Antarctica. I went to Australia, Vernais, Philippines, Thailand, Norway, Estonia; I made it to a couple different places in South America. It was fun; I got to do a lot of traveling. I got to see just about everywhere in the world. What types of duties did you have? I was in the logistics field. So I did a lot of things with deployable units. When we deployed I made sure we had all of our stuff and that it was loaded correctly. We put it on either a plane, boat, or a ship. Everybody got on, everybody had food, and everybody had vehicles when we landed. Pretty much the coordination of where we stayed. I just did all the logistics. As I got more senior I got to do a lot more stuff in coordinating. I flew into places before everybody got there in setting up all the vehicles. I would set it up ahead of time and then the whole unit would come in. You enlisted right after you got out of high school, right? I graduated in May of 1996 and I was in the Marine Corps in August of 1996 Where were you living at the time? I was living in Northern Virginia. Sterling, Virginia, right outside of Washington, D.C., about 20 minutes away. You may not know the exact reason you enlisted, but what was one of the main reasons? I think that's easy. I wasn't ready to do anything else. I was not ready for college yet. I was not ready to go find a real job. I needed some guidance and direction in my life. My dad was a former Marine; he was in the Marines during Vietnam. I had �Daniel Hartsell Oral History Project U.S. Military History, MW 11-12:15 some other relatives in the military too, my uncles were in the Army, my grandfather and brother was in the Air Force. My whole family has been military. I just chose the Marine Corps because I was always told it was the best. When you want to do something like that, I think you want to be the best. It was an easy pick for me. Do you still think it is the best? Definitely. There's no doubt in my mind. Do you recall your first days in the service? Definitely, I was this little naive 18-year-old kid. I had no idea. My dad was in Vietnam and he didn't talk about the war, he didn't talk about the Marine Corps, he didn't talk about what he did until after I went in. So 1 had no idea what I was getting myself into. I remember getting off the bus and getting yelled at. They shaved my head bald and took everything off my body that I had and gave me everything new. I remember lying in bed the first couple nights thinking what is going on, what did I do to myself. As the 13 weeks of boot camp went along, it just got better and better. I still talk to people from my platoon from boot camp, even 15 years later. It's amazing seeing that bond that they build. They really build that brotherhood and that team feeling that you want to support everyone else. Where were you stationed for boot camp? I was in Paris Island, SC, the best place to go in the Marine Corps. We don't like those "Hollywood" Marines, just kidding, but that's the joke we make about California Marines. The Marine Corps is one of those places where there's so much tradition and honor that you cannot help but feel that respect and tradition every time you put on that uniform and you're told to do something. It just builds up in you and you never forget. Estimate how many people made it to the end out of your enlistment class? We started with 82 in my platoon. I only know of 2 that didn't make it. One kid got hurt and the other quit early and he got dropped and moved. I don't know if he finished. You didn't want to get hurt at boot camp. I hurt my shoulder climbing the rope, and it still hurts me today. I never stopped; I never let them take me back to another platoon. They let you heal, then you go into another platoon and you're at Paris Island for four or five months and that's not something I was ready to do. You just take that little bit of extra pain and go with it. What sticks out the most about basic training to you? Leaving basic training. I felt like a totally different person. It's amazing how they break you down and then build you back up. It totally changes your perspective on what you can accomplish and what you can do. It made you feel apart of something. I think it was that whole atmosphere of graduating, seeing your parents for the first time. We didn't get to make phone calls, so I didn't talk to anybody from August 19 �Daniel Hartsell Oral History Project U.S. Military History, MW 11-12:15 until I graduated November 11. So I didn't talk to anybody until that weekend of graduation. Do you remember any instructors, and if so what sticks out the most about them? Senior Drill Instructor Sergeant Galloway, he was the man. He was young; he was the youngest drill instructor. I went back to Paris Island. I was lucky enough to be stationed there. So I went back after I finished up all my boot camp and got to finish up all my school. When I went back, I talked to Staff Sergeant Galloway. There was Sergeant Nash, Sergeant Williams and Sergeant Kottner. They all had different roles. Senior Drill Instructor was supposed to be the good guy, but he's still the headman. He's in charge and he's accountable. Sergeant Kottner was the one that was going to put you through the most pain. He was there to pretty much yell at you. Sergeant Nash did a lot of the education stuff with history and drill. He was not light at all about yelling or killing you. Staff Sergeant Williams was just everywhere. He was about 5-4'. Because he was so short, he'd hop up on the footlockers and he'd just yell at you. He'd hop up and point at the bigger guys. He was kind of funny because he was so short, but he didn't care. Sergeant Galloway had a spider web tattoo on his left arm. It went from halfway up his forearm to halfway up his bicep, and it was sweet. If I had to draw it today from memory I probably could. I don't think I'll ever forget those guys. So you were in the Marine Corps from 1996 to 2004. Obviously there weren't any big declarations of war during that time. Do you remember any big military operations? Obviously there was 9/11/01, were there any other events that stick out to you? Two in a way. I did a joint service operation in Haiti in 1998. We went down and it was all five branches. We were doing humanitarian operations for them. The Haitians did not like us down there. We got combat pay even though we weren't engaged in combat because we had to carry around loaded weapons at all times to protect us from the Haitians that didn't want us down there. I'd go shopping with a 9mm on my chest and my M16 on my other arm. It was funny to have more weapons on me when I was walking around Haiti while we were building a school for them. The next thing would be 9/11. We were doing a training exercise at Anderson Air Force Base in Florida. I remember the morning in the mess hall. We did 24- hour alerts for about two months. We stayed there for about two months doing different operations. Our squadron did different operations. That squadron is no longer in the Marine Corps, so it's kind of cool to be in a disbanded unit. We did a lot of traveling around with them. I went on a bunch of different operations, but when it comes to ones that have merit, those stick out. On a Scale of 1-10 how would you rate the food? It could go anywhere from 1 to 10... One would be MREs for lunch, dinner, and sometimes occasionally getting a hot breakfast that would consist of dry eggs and old ham. When I lived in Estonia, I was there for six months and we lived on the beach. We were doing beach operations kind of like how we would attack a beach �Daniel Hartsell Oral History Project U.S. Military History, MW 11-12:15 and off load it. I was with a squadron that was doing that at the time and we had maybe one hot meal a day and that sucks. The MREs that we had were old, they are not like the ones they have today. It's different situations where we would have the same thing over and over. When we were in Vernais we stayed at the Emperor's Place Hotel for two weeks and we ate like kings. Some of the buffet meals we had there, I don't think I'll ever beat anywhere in the world. I've had things that you were lucky to heat up the certain meal you had in your MRE. Most of the MREs were cold and you added your little Tabasco packet to everything just to give it a little flavor. How did you and other soldiers entertain yourselves? Goodness. I guess that matters where you are. I guess the number one thing we did was drinking whether that's smart or not. In Guam, when we were off, we were drinking. In Japan when we were off, we were drinking. IN the US when we were off we were drinking. I remember getting up in Guam to watch the Super Bowl at 6 in the morning. We had about 20 Marines at my house in Guam. We were in these little, old houses with cots, but being the logistics chief, I got two couches and a TV. We split and stole the cable from a box out front. I had a couple sergeants in my house that were good electricians that were living with me. Everybody ended up at our house to watch the Super Bowl. It's like 6 in the morning and I remember the CO walking in and we all pop up to attention with beer in our hands at 6am. He just looks around and starts smiling and laughing because he had given us the day off to watch the game. It was early in the morning and we started drinking as soon as we got up. But we also got to see the world. When I was in Hawaii we went to Pearl Harbor. When I was in Iowa Jima I got to go down into the caves that the Japanese lived in. There's certain things in certain places that you get to go to. You get to see the coolest stuff. We jumped off the bridge at Wake Island. Some of those things we did to entertain ourselves was going to see stuff like golden temples and ruins in Thailand that I'll never be able to see again. What personal artifacts and photographs do you keep? Probably my favorite artifact from the military is this old glass bottle I found on the beach in Iwo Jima. I filled it halfway up with sand from "A" beach and the other half with sand from "B" beach. That's what they called the beaches on either side of Mount Suribachi. Finding that bottle is probably my favorite thing I have from the military. I still have it in my room; I've given some sand to my father, some to my grandfather. It's not as full as it was when I left, but I think that's one of the great things about doing the things that I did. I don't need things to know what the things that I see or do. Going to Iwo Jima was one of the coolest and most historic things that I'll do. I got to go during the 55th anniversary ceremony. I got to see these veterans walk with medals of honors around their necks. They would tell stories about the exact place they were when their best friends died at Mount Suribachi. They could point to that spot and they could tell you where they went up the �Daniel Hartsell Oral History Project U.S. Military History, MW 11-12:15 mountain. It was a neat to hear them tell that story and see it while I was actually on the island. Why did you decide to reenlist in 2000? That's a good question. I was in Japan when I reenlisted. I was living there and I knew I wasn't ready to go to school yet. I promised myself when I went in during 1996 that I would use my GI bill to go to school. Four years passed and I still had no idea what I was going to do with my life. I didn't know where I wanted to go, if I could get into school, what I wanted to do. I thought the best thing for me was to reenlist for four more years. I think it was the best decision I ever made because at that point I hadn't done as much traveling. I had been to Europe a couple times. I had been to Haiti and Japan, but I hadn't done as much. I was pretty much gone my last four years. I got to see the world a lot more my last four years. It was cool getting to where I was from when I came in. I had more control over my job and what we did as I got older and was there longer. It was a lot of fun being the boss. Do you recall the day your service ended? Yeah. It was July 8, 2004. I remember pulling off base and they scraped the sticker off the front of my car. It used to just be that sticker; they had gotten stricter after 9/11. I remember pulling up to that gate my last day and they scraped it off. That's where it hit me that I was out and I was done. I remember signing my DU214 forms and having those. I did my eight years. They couldn't even call me back. I did my four years active and during my four years of inactive, I did active. I had already done my 8 years that I had originally signed up for, so I was out. They couldn't even draft me really. So you knew you didn't want to be a "lifer"? It's funny because I talked to the guys that I went in with and that I had been in with. Some of them are still in and are more senior than I was. I remember them coming in. One of the PFCs that worked for me is now a gunnery sergeant. It's a cool thing talking to him. He's one of the few people that says how much he's learned from working for me and how to do it a little differently. I wasn't as hard ass as most Marines when it came to my Marines. My Marines always came first, and that's one thing he liked to learn and still talks to me about. Did you have any immediate plans or goals coming out of the service? My immediate plan was to go home and live with my brother. My brother lived in Boone, NC, so I decided to move to Boone with him. He wanted me to come live with him to cut his rent down. I knew the school was right here, so I decided to see if I could get in. I did; it took me a year after moving up here to get into ASU. It's been the greatest thing. I'll graduate in May. I've really enjoyed my time here after getting out...knowing what I know, having the experience that I've had, and being able to enjoy it a little bit more I think knowing that I've earned everything that I've got. �Daniel Hartsell Oral History Project U.S. Military History, MW 11-12:15 something out of it. 1 got school and traveling the world but I also got to do something for my country. It's not something everybody gets to say. Getting to tell someone that you were a part of the military is the part that is the best. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/3a12ca0029b76da3d92b22e96cc6e5ca.mp3 32ec9ec0d67e710d1889bdc815ef91d8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Bailey, Nicholas D. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hartsell, Daniel Interview Date 3/8/10 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:29:57 File name 2013_063_Bailey_NicholasD_interview 2013_063_Bailey_NicholasD_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nicholas D. Bailey, 8 March 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hartsell, Daniel Bailey, Nicholas D. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 6 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Bailey, Nicholas D. Veterans United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Nick Bailey enlisted in the Marine Corps directly after high school and went to basic training at Parris Island, South Carolina. He worked as a logician for 8 years and was able to travel to every continent save Antarctica. The closest thing he saw to combat was in Haiti, where they had to walk around armed because many Haitians did not want them there. He came back to the States and enrolled at ASU after his service and says the military was a very good choice for him because it gave him direction in his life. GI Bill Haiti logistics Marine Corps MRE Nick Bailey Parris Island https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/092b880557fe9ec2060a3e1b140b4bb2.pdf 93c92ff7a2e4972d895e697a35ebdeff PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview with Clyde Badger October 07, 2012 Asheville, NC Ryan Blackmon: This is Ryan Blackmon. Clyde Badger: And I’m Clyde Badger. Blackmon: And if you don’t mind… can you state your… highest rank you achieved while you were in the Army? Badger: (Does not respond unable to hear) Blackmon: Can you state your highest rank you achieved while you were in the Army? Badger: I’m still not understanding…what you’re saying. Excuse me. I’m sorry. Blackmon: That’s fine... Do you remember your highest rank that you achieved in the Army? Badger: Oh…Highest rank…that I had while I was in the Army…I was Staff Sergeant. Blackmon: Ok. Badger: And I was in… the Combat Engineer… Company and we…essentially worked…we did…we built bridges and…and roads and repaired them you know… and… I… we did this in Hawaii before we…of course…we had combat in Hawaii. But we went from there to…Guadalcanal. And…just…hit sort of a very rough island with undergrowth…under all the…palm trees…and…so we would sort of clean the undergrowth off and… make sure that there…the roads were safe for a big truck. Dual wheels you know. So that…it’d be safe for us to…to start building roads…and…could bring…a lot of heavy equipment in off the ships. Of course right away the… it took a while before the…the land was ours you know. We’d landed…Japanese were…still shooting at us. (Laughs). Blackmon: (Laughs) And if…if you don’t mind, can you tell me a little bit about how you came to join the Army? Badger: Well…really…I had…had… started Oklahoma State University and I ran out of money. (Laughs). So… I joined the Army. The Army recruiter…was hanging around…campus and… he said you ought to go with us…Ft. Bliss Texas. I said heavens no. (Laughs). It was…Ft. Bliss was hot as…almost as hot as you could get in the United States. And…he said well…we got a place in Hawaii. I said I’m gone…sign me up and…and I… was signed up for a Combat Engineer outfit. And that’s what we �did. We built roads and…and bridges and it was an interesting work…and it was…an interesting place. Blackmon: Now can you tell me some about what your training was like? Your initial basic training or job training that you did? Badger: …well… now really I didn’t have any special training. Like I said we built roads and bridges and that’s manual labor. (Laughs). Really…really…you very much labor. But…they…folks would take us out on work details and I got to know what it was to handle a…a shovel and shovel dirt and material and then we did some construction work and… we repaired roads and bridges and that was interesting work so…that was my main job. And this was in…I was in Hawaii…before the Japanese dropped the bomb. Afterwards we knew that we had…some real work to do. We went into combat. And then we were going to have to build bridges that would get truck and men…truck loads of men from one place to the other. And…and their equipment and materials, their guns. That was my job. Blackmon: Ok Badger: And I was a sergeant in a…in a combat engineer outfit. We called ourselves a Combat Engineer ‘cause we did road work, or whatever work the Army wanted us to do but, we also carried a gun and would use ‘em. Blackmon: Ok Badger: And was taught to use ‘em. Blackmon: Now can you tell me about...that morning at Pearl Harbor while you were there? Badger: Well...it’s sort of disappointing. (Laughs). Sort of disappointing. Blackmon: That’s Ok. Badger: I had been in the army…for two years and was ready to come back home. December the first I was scheduled to come back to the United States and of course…the seventh they tore us up. So…our…now your question…I lost your question. Blackmon: That’s ok. I was just asking you…what was it like that morning? The morning of the attack. Badger: That…That morning was…we had to get all of our equipment that we used to…to…build bridges and do repair work…we had to get it ready and then move it out. Move away from the...we…we had long…usually sort of like…lets see here down where they have all the trucks under shelter, over we had all of our…our trucks and jeeps and pick ups….Log bearing, we had to get this, all of this stuff ready to…to do the Army’s orders whatever they asked us to do. This was in Hawaii and…we…started preparing immediately to go as a division. I was in the 25th �Division. And so we went as a division down to the South Pacific and went to Boganville and Guadalcanal and some of the…the other, rough places down there. Blackmon: Sir, can you also tell me about some of your experiences on Guadalcanal? Badger: …Well it was…it wasn’t…it wasn’t…I’m trying to see, I think I had a…Almost all of our time on there was…we started out landing and getting our equipment in there, and then finding out where we needed a road where the…the Army needed a road. Where we needed to get from…from a beach to a, a location on the island and build some…some roads. We had some road equip…bulldozers and what have you to build the…repair the roads and build roads. Blackmon: Now was there any special job that was given to your unit specifically? Badger: …Nothing…nothing…that would have any roses around it. (Laughs). Yeah…we…we were…mainly…they…they…had…we didn’t...didn’t finish all the jobs we got. (Laughs). We…we had…as I say…when…when we got on the island, then we had to be sure that all of our equipment, all the Army’s equipment, could move to where…we could do…do whatever they wanted us to do. Blackmon: Yes sir. Can you tell me anything about the…what the conditions were like on Guadalcanal? Badger: Well, when we first landed…it was, our conditions were pretty rough cause, no matter where we moved we got shot at. (Laughs). So…you…you learned…you learned how to keep your head down…while we were doing work and, but we, …always if the Army gave us a job, there was no excuses. You had to…go ahead and do the job that they gave us. Blackmon: Yes sir. Badger: But they were not unreasonable. They gave us jobs that were tough, but they were not…not, not unreasonable. Blackmon: Yes sir. Now, what do you think was the most valuable skill set or…you know…task that you learned while you were serving in the Army? Badger: I don’t…know what…the valuable…but…course I had, I had never, I had done farm work but…working under orders to…to…build something was new…was a new experience for me. And…And we didn’t have…we didn’t have a good su…lumber yard to go to. We didn’t…you know…we had to makeshift equipment…to…get a job done. And we cut…you know…cut down trees and remember the trees on those islands were mainly pine…palm trees. So they’re not the strongest, wood you know. But…no matter what we…they…any job that they gave us…we go that job done. They…we had…a good group…we had…something I’ll tell you. All of our officers in that Combat Engineer outfit…all of our officers were from the…the top of their class at West Poin…West Point. The engineering �officers…the…and so…they were real smart…real…reliable people to get work…get a job done. Get the Army’s job done. Blackmon: Yes sir. Well, thank you very much for your time sir, thank you for your service. Badger: Oh you’re welcome. You’re welcome. � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/09571e7c63ad6a6d5b5a3216999c40ce.mp3 8a0e384d7f5254a1051ec0f6820a0978 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Badger, Clyde Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Blackmon, Ryan Interview Date 10/7/12 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:13:35 File name 2013_063_Badger_Clyde_interview 2013_063_Badger_Clyde_transcript Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Clyde Badger, 7 October 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blackmon, Ryan Badger, Clyde Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Extent The size or duration of the resource. 4 pages Language A language of the resource English English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Subject The topic of the resource Badger, Clyde Veterans World War, 1939-1945 Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Clyde Badger was an Army Staff Sergeant and worked as a combat engineer during the Guadalcanal Campaign. He built bridges and roads, and said that he didn't really have much specific job training. He did most of his learning on the job and most of it was simple manual labor. Army Staff Sergeant Clyde Badger combat engineer Guadalcanal Hawaii https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/f0781312b2b8caee7130ea4929bcb126.pdf 0acd0cd966ad2268ce6f9921314f5139 PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Colonel Russell Olson Boone, NC 15 October 2011 CO: Russell Olson, Jr., Colonel BH: Ben Hedgepath LH: Laura Hedgepath BH: Can you tell me who you are and where you were born and raised. CO: My name is Russell V. Olson Jr., and I was born in Oakland California on August 3rd, 1947. BH: What branch of military did you serve in and did you see any wars? RO: I spent 30 years as a field artillery officer in the US Army and saw combat in Vietnam. BH: What was your rank and when did you serve? RO: Well, I entered the Army as a second lieutenant, and retired as a full colonel. In Vietnam I was a first lieutenant. BH: When and why did you choose the military? RO: My father spent 27 years in the Navy. So I was naturally predisposed to service in the military. Maybe it was in the genes I don’t know. And I also went to a military college in Charleston, South Carolina. BH: Had you decided to go into the military before you went to the Citadel? Or was that after you… RO: I feel like I would have probably taken ROTC at wherever... BH: So there was a lot of patriotism at the Citadel? RO: At the Citadel? (ha-ha) I would say that was a center of American patriotism. There were no anti war demonstrations at the Citadel. BH: That's interesting. And good. So tell me about your college life and your training. 1 �RO: Well, the Citadel was the military college of South Carolina. It started in 1842, and when I went there we were called cadets and not students. We wore uniforms all the time. We lived in barracks in highly structured regiments society. There were ROTC programs there for Army, Air Force, did not have one for the navy at the time. I would say that most cadets that went to the Citadel were actively involved in the ROTC to with the intent of becoming commissioned officers upon graduation. I majored in history, because I enjoyed history and reading and I really did not give a lot of thought about what I would do with this degree. BH: So, you graduated college in 1969, which was the same year as the draft. What was your opinion of the draft? RO: Well, I know now a lot more about the draft then I did then. I studied the subject, I have taught history. As you probably know, we have had a number of drafts in our nation's history. Draft in the Civil War, World War One, World War Two, and then throughout almost the entire Cold War. It was during the late 1 9 70s that we switched to an all-volunteer force. My personal feeling is that the draft, as it was applied to Vietnam was inherently unfair and I think it was a mistake for our government to give deferrals to people who simply go them because they could afford to go to college. BH: Were most people that were drafted. Did they feel like they were being pushed to fight unwillingly? RO: My first assignment for the military we got a lot of draftees in our units. This was in the early 1970s, you know ’70, ’71 and ’72. There were some moral problems. Quite frankly, I did not detect much difference between soldiers that were drafted and those that were volunteering. A lot of the draftees' were just adopted the attitude that "we do not like being here but I am just going to do what it takes, stay out of trouble, get out." So as far as discipline and drug use…you couldn't really tell who was a draftee and who was a volunteer. BH: Did you ever have any or were you ever nervous about leading men who did not seem to or want to be there. Or who don't seem to want to fight? Was there a big difference? RO: I personally think that the one key to leadership is to establish a rapport with your soldiers. And you do that by a variety of ways, communication, sharing in hardships, demonstrating to them that you care about, as individuals. And you also, number one care about the mission. BH: Right, I can see that. So, who were you in command of, who were these soldiers that you were... RO: When I first entered the Army I was in Germany with an artillery unit and I was the platoon leader. When I was in Vietnam I was an advisor, and I wasn’t in command of 2 �anybody. And we can talk about that more later. After Vietnam I was a battery commander at Fort Sill, Oklahoma where I had about a 100 soldiers under my command. Much later I was battalion commander at Fort Drum, New York. With about 500 soldiers and millions of dollars of equipment under my command. As a senior officer and full coronel, I performed primarily staff jobs the next to last job as a full colonel was our defense at Akshay at New Deli, India. And that was primarily an intelligence gathering position. BH: Okay. You said you were an advisor in Vietnam, Who were you advising. And what did that consist of? RO: Let me give you some background of why I was in Vietnam. BH: Okay, sure. RO: As you are well aware, after President Nixon was elected, he ran on a platform of Vietnameseization and our troop levels peaked at about 500,000 right after he was inaugurated. Then he started to have a phased withdraw and hand the battle over to the Vietnamese in a program he called Vietnameseization. By the time I came to active duty and went to Germany we were not sending a lot of folks to Germany. I actually had to volunteer to go to Vietnam. And the reason I did so was because my best friend in my battalion, Jack Hips, came down on Levy for Vietnam. Inexpediently. I figured if Jack was going to Vietnam, I wanted to go to Vietnam too. So I volunteered and my paperwork was accepted. By this time there were no artillery units we had no US army artillery units in Vietnam. We were down to a very low number of troops. The Army sent me to eight weeks of Vietnam language school. I went to Fort Bragg to special with Special Forces center and did advising school. And did Vietnamese language school. And I hit Vietnam and they sent me up to the central highlands where I worked with the Montagnards, who did not speak Vietnamese. I was able to use my college French and I also had two interpreters we got along fine. But I was there primarily just to tag along with the district chief who was a Montagnards, who was a lieutenant coronel. Especially I was there to show the flag and report back to our headquarters. As I mentioned earlier the day after I got to my ultimate assignment up in the highlands. The only other American who was there went on a raid and never came back. Now, I don't blame him. This was his second tour of Vietnam, and he felt like he had paid his dues, the war was winding down, and when he got back from his raid he stayed at the provincial headquarters. I got there with all my new best friends. The sense of isolation, I was surrounded by people who didn't speak the same language, didn’t have the big cultural gab. But I got along with them. BH: That's good. You've covered where you were stationed and what your jobs were. What was it like when you arrived in Vietnam, How did the locals treat you? RO: The first thing, when we got off the plane, was the heat and humidity, ha-ha. I mean I 3 �don't know if you've spent any time in Southe ast Asia but you can, its very difficult to describe the heat and humidity. BH: I mean it can get pretty hot down here RO: And also, we landed at Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base in Saigon. And they put us on these armored busses with uh bars on the windows to keep the grenades from getting in. So there was some tension. And because this was my first combat assignment, intellectually, I knew it could be dangerous. But until I got off the plane and they put us on this vehicle with these bar on it. Everyone was running around outside with a weapon. Then I started to say, "this is the real stuff'. But then when I went to a replacement station called Camp Alpha, where they decided what they were going to do with me. Uh, fortunately I had run into another Citadel graduate who had actually been at my wedding. So he kind of took care of me for a day or two while we were in Saigon. BH: it's a small world, did you always feel like you had to be on your toes and you were in danger, Or were these bars on the bus for example just a precaution. RO: I guess there had been some attacks, so this was a prurient precaution. After awhile you don't ever get used to it, But I mean I tried not to become obsessed with fear and have the ability of my actions be ruled by that. I knew there were risks in involved. But I felt like as long as I was with the district chief, who had a security attachment with him. BH: Faith in your commanders. So, did you ever see combat as an artillery advisor? RO: Not as an artilleryman; you know, I heard shots fired in anger while I was over there, particularly on the last night. The night before the cease-fire went into effect was my worst. BH: Before the Tet. RO: Not before Tet, this was after Tet. This was in 1973. Tet occurs every year in mid January. Tet is the kind of like the Chinese Lunar. And it's a big deal in all of Southeast Asia. Whenever anyone hears about Tet they think about 1968, when we were caught with our pants down. When I was over there in the Tet of 1973, for all intensive purposes the war was almost over. I was still out there until the cease- f i r e . As you might be aware of, at the Paris Peace Conferences, when our side or their side negotiated the peace treaty that was to go into effect in mid or late January, in 1973. Well in the days and weeks leading up to that. There was a push to grab land. Because there beliefs that if our flag was on it then it is our territory. So in the weeks and days preceding the cease- f i r e went into effect at 8 in the morning, uh, the South Vietnamese government was putting flags all over the place. The night before the cease- f i r e was ...and I'll show you some pictures if you’re interested BH: Absolutely. 4 �RO: Pictures of what our camp looked like. I don't want to say I was fearful, maybe a little apprehensive and anxious. And I knew were going to see some action that night. In fact I had written a letter to my wife expressing concern about how, it was like "Pardon me, I'm the only American out here. Were probably going to be hit, etc.” I got that letter on a helicopter before it took off, and so then I went around the perimeter. And again these were Montagnards RFPR (Regional Force, Popular Force), you know, kind of irregular forces. And they were out there on the perimeter. And they've got their families with them out there (ha-ha) And I'm just thinking, what is going to happen if a family member gets hit. Is that soldier going to fight harder because of that or is he going to leave his position to go take care of his family member. Anyway so we go, so we're waiting. Sure enough as the sun goes down, and it was a dark night, and we didn't have any of that nice night vision glasses that I was talking about, and uh, it was particularly dark that night too. And the firing started. And uh, we had two 105mm howitzers in our compound that the South Vietnamese army manned. And someone had the great idea that they were going to crank the tubes up to the maximum elevation and they were going to fire an illumination round. And that’s a valid technique, self-illumination. And uh, there was a big explosion as the round fired and the illumination round goes up and you hear a little pop as the flare base ejects out of the 105 round, and it kind of just floated down. And the 105 illumination round is just pitiful, but you can see a little something out there. And because of the light, you felt a little bit better, but then the flares hit the ground before they could completely burn out. BH: Oh no... , RO: This was late January during the dry season, and they had not done a good job of clearing the debris, so the next thing we know we've got a wall of flame coming our direction and sense we had already been fired on and the artillery was firing, small arms firing, a sheet a flame coming at us, and the claymore mines start going off and the fear factor was starting to go up just a bit. But God was good, and the next morning when the sun came up and the smoke cleared, we were all still alive. BH: I can't even imagine. RO: The Vietcong had, been busy (Olson is retrieving a Vietnamese helmet and a flag from within the helmet). This is a Vietcong flag that was pulled out of the perimeter wire. One of the Montagnards went out and collected it as a souvenir for me. So then at 8:00 in the morning cease-fire went live. And within a couple of days I left there and went back to the providence headquarters and reversed the process. I went from the providence headquarters down to the camp Alpha in Saigon, turned in my weapons, because I had been issued an M16 when I got to Vietnam. And I carried that everywhere. When I got to my alternant assignment I got my 45 as well. So when I show you these pictures later on, you'll see me carrying an M16 and a 45 as well. I always kind of felt that the M16 was a piece of 5 �plastic. But it was always kind of comforting having that big 45 right next to you. BH: I'm sure. So how close were you to normally t o 105 artillery to the front line? RO: Well, the 105 artillery is right now our smallest artillery piece. It has a range of about 10 miles, you know 15 km. In order to be effective, it has to be pretty close to the front lines. Now the 155 mm howitzer that we have today has a rocket-assisted projectile that will kick it to a range of 20 plus miles. BH: That's impressive. So you were mainly advising, you weren't in charge of any planning of battles RO: Not while I was there. Again, there were combat units in the providence that I was located. But they were all South Vietnamese units. We had two South Vietnamese artillery pieces in our compound. And we would have interactions with them, because my Vietnamese was quite good. "toy now tep nee ip net too???"....... (Olson is speaking in Vietnamese) I mean I could handle it pretty good. BH: This is going to be fun to transcribe (ha-ha). RO: But I received them periodically. I had limited contact. My primary mission there was to tag along with the district chiefs, eat the same food he ate, sleep with him wherever we were. We went out sometimes and visited a village, and I'll show you pictures of this, but the Montagnards they had their houses up on stilts. They were Montagnards long houses. They might be 30-40 feet long, assume a room 30-40 feet long like this, and its up on stilts. About eight feet of the ground. For a number of reasons; snakes, scorpions, animals could be underneath there for shelter and some protection against intruders. And we would go out there and I would find myself you know, we're not going back to the compound, we're staying here tonight. And then all of a sudden we’re sleeping on the bare floor with 30-40 complete strangers. No electricity, you wake up, wanting to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and you don't know where you are or anything. All you know is that you're eight feet off the ground and you don't even know which end of the log house you wanted to go out of (laughter). BH: Its interesting to me that you were mostly surrounded by South Vietnamese friendlies and you don't have many American soldier with you except for the generals that you were talking about. RO: The only Americans were back at the providence headquarters, and again, we dropped our force structure down. There was a lieutenant colonel that was the providence senior advisor, and he had a couple of majors and a couple of captains and one force lieutenant. He also had a couple of civilians that were in charge of various pacification programs. 6 �BH: That makes sense. So, I notice that you got a lot of medals, very impressive metals for that matter. Can you describe how you got maybe your favorite one? Or how you got one. RO: I don't know if I have a favorite one or not. A couple of those were combat awards. The Vietnamese Service Medal and the Vietnamese Campaign Medal those two medals were primarily for everyone who got off the plane, we get those for stepping a foot on south Vietnamese soil. The other two awards are the Bronze Star and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. And I had to do something to get those. BH: Is there a nice story behind it, or? RO: Just doing my job. The Bronze Star was a US award the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry was presented by the Vietnamese. BH: My question is how did soldiers entertain themselves? But what I'm now wondering about is what was the difference between the American and Vietnamese soldier in how they entertained themselves? RO: Interesting. This is brining back a flood of memories. My contact with the outside world was a PRC 2500 radio. We got this bamboo and made some pitiful antennas up. And if the weather conditions, or conditions were right, I could talk back to the providence headquarters. And I would generally just make a convo check in the morning and a convo check at night and I would also have a shortwave radio that I brought with me so that I could get radio Saigon. We would be out in rural South Vietnam. No paved roads, no electricity, we had a generator, but we would only want to run it for an hour or two at night. I would read. But the Montagnards, particularly the district chiefs, they loved to play Gin Rummy. Often we would spend an hour or two at night. The district chief who was a colonel, one of my interpreters, a good interpreter. We had two interpreters, one of which we used as the cook. And uh normally one of his officers and us would just sit around and play cards. Often minor stakes. But it was really impressive because often times the Montagnards were very stoic, but when they were playing Gin Rummy, I mean they would just go (Olson imitates an exaggerated way that the Montagnards would throw down their cards). This is kind of disgusting by the way, but one of the highlights of my week. We had a latrine that periodically we had to keep the mosquitoes down and clean up. So we would go out there and pour a can of gasoline. And I always wanted to do that, I wanted to be the one to do that (laughter) so I would go out there and do that with the gasoline and shout “Everybody back! It would go "Phhhfew!" (explosion noise) BH: Literal meaning “fire in the hole,” I guess RO: Ha-ha, yeah I liked that. There were a couple of other funny things that happened. 7 �BH: Were there ever any pranks that got pulled? RO: Yes. One pops in my head. Again, this was near the end. And was starting to get a little tense. And I knew the end was coming there. And so I would go into the latrine, and I had taken my helmet and my flak vest, and my M16; which I normally didn't do. I was in the latrine and the artillery started firing for one reason or another. And then my interpreter took some gravel, and threw it on the roof of the latrine. And time it so that, again there was so much going on, you don't have time to think. And all of a sudden you hear these explosions and stuff. And I thought that it might have been incoming. And I Should have know better. The sound of a round going out is unbelievably different from then one coming in. There is just no comparison. I grabbed my steal pot and my flak vest, and my M16. And I run out there in my boxer shorts and flip-flops. And he and his buddies are standing there going "Ha-ha-ha!" and they took a picture (laughter) and I can show you that picture if you want to. BH: I'd love to. That's great. RO: That was one prank. Another funny thing and this was not intended to be a funny thing. I share this story with my students. Again, I would go along with the district advisor, and eat and drink whatever he ate and drank. We went out one day. And we were squatting around as Asians do, around a large pot drinking rice wine through a straw, a big straw, you know. All of a sudden I hear this terrible squeal. I look over my shoulder and I see they are butchering a little pig next to me. And they burn the flesh and take the intestines and grab one end and go "Pshhhshhh." They cut intestines up into pieces about that long (about an inch) and threw it in a pot of water for about five minutes and then served it up as hors d'oeuvres. And sense I was the only white face there. They kind of come to me first. And there are about 30-40 sets of eyes watching me. And I say to myself, ''I'm not going to... I can handle this." So I grab some and put it I my mouth. And it was like chewing rubber bands. The more I chewed, the larger it got in my mouth. So finally, I made the supreme sacrifice and just swallowed it. And then for the next week or two I stressed out about getting trichinosis or some kind of intestinal disease, but I turned out okay. But that’s kind of a funny story and I like sharing it with folks. Montagnards chitins. BH: Sounds good. I'll look for it at the grocery market (laughter). So, you said you got to share food with other officers, how did that compare to the food the privates had to eat. RO: When I was with the Montagnards I ate pretty much whatever they ate; lots of rice. In fact when I got back from Vietnam, I did not eat very much rice. But I like it now. Being from the south, you would think that I would like rice, but I maxed out on rice. When I was not in Vietnam as a battery commander, I tried to be scrupulous. I did not take advantage of my position. I tried to eat the 8 �same food the soldier ate, and I tried to eat towards the tail end. Particularly as a battery commander, before I would eat I would wait for the soldiers. It wasn’t always possible as a battery commander, because there were soldier everywhere. BH: was this something you learn from your training or was this just something you decided to do? RO: I personally think that it was part of being a leader. I think it is very important that uh, not only do leaders share in hardships of their soldier, but they have to be seen sharing in the hardships of soldiers. When I was in the 10th mountain division wide infantry, being in a light infantry unit 10-12 mile long marches were a big deal. Obstacle courses were big deals. And so fourmile runs were big deals as a battalion, I would always make sure I was leading the way on that. RO: (Directed to Laura Hedgepath, who was a former student of Colonel Olson at JM Robison High School). Laura, did you know in the spring of 2010, that I crossed the 25,000 mile mark in my runners journal? LH: Yes RO: (To Laura) Did you see the picture of that? LH: I did, very cool. BH: I saw it on your website, that's amazing. That's something I could never do. RO: You'd be surprised, one step at a time. Anyway that’s just...I think it’s important that officers lead by example. And an officer is not always going to be the best at every category. But he should be above average at every category. No matter what it is. Whether it be running or the obstacle course firing the M16, M9 pistol, it doesn’t matter. BH: That makes sense. So what was your understanding during the war of why America had chosen to invade? RO: Invade!? (Olson makes a buzzing sound to exploit my folly) BH: Right, not invade, but chosen to take part in this war in Vietnam. I mean sense you have learned a bit after the war, has your opinion of why this was such an important war we needed to fight changed or evolved? RO: I'm still conflicted about that. At the time, I really didn't question it. And again, it’s easy for us today with the benefit of hindsight. To criticize our involvement in Vietnam. At the time, the communist threat was real, and 9 �remember I was born in ‘47. This week or in a day or two would start the anniversary of the start of the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. And I was 15 years old when the churches of my hometown in South Carolina went on 24-hour day, seven days a week prayer vigil as a result of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And that was serious stuff; Berlin Wall, Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. BH: A very scary time in domestic America. RO: Oh yes, and don't forget what's happening in domestic America: Lyndon Johnson announced he was not running for President, Tet of 1968, Robert F. Kennedy's assassination, Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination, race riots, we've got the Soviet Invasion of Czechoslovakia, Richard Nixon elected President. So at the time the Communist threat was real. And again, I supported the war because a lot of my friends were already over there. I lost classmates from the Citadel in Vietnam. The thought of not supporting the war just did not occur to me. I have studied this a lot in the intervening years. And I can now see how we kind of backed into the war. We never had a clear strategy, a clear goal. It was a failure of our political leaders to articulate our military to do I totally believe in civilian control of the military. But I think that it was a political failure our leaders did not have a clear desire to end state, stop the spread of communism. Maybe that was legitimate at the time. BH: Interesting. I think its going to be a long time before we can truly understand why. What was the first thing you wanted to do when you got home? RO: I wanted to hug and kiss my wife (laughter). BH: So what was actually the first thing you did when you got home? RO: I called my wife and said "Why weren't you out here to pick me up!?" (laughter) BH: That's funny. RO: There was some confusion about when the plane would arrive because I landed in Los Angeles. And then had a couple of stops before I landed in Greensboro airport. My wife was still a senior…no she had graduated college. She was in graduate school to get her Masters in Education. So there was a little bit of confusion about when the plane was going to arrive. 10 �BH: Do you have a favorite military book or movie on this conflict? RO: I have several favorite military books and movies. One of my favorite military movies is "Zulu". This was, are you familiar with an actor, Michael Kane? This was Michael Kane's first movie, but it was made back in the 1960s, in South Africa. The Brits had been fighting the Bores, fighting the Zulus. Because of the climatic parts of the movie is when the Welch units were about to be overrun by thousands of Zulus. They start singing "Men of Harlech," which was an original song. It popped in my head. I go crazy. I have the whole class sing along. Two other movies I like, "Black Hawk Down." I saw that movie with my son, when it first came out. It touched me on several levels, I actually had to sit down outside after we walked out of the theater. A couple of years later, we had a terrorist situation in New Deli, India. Not in New Deli, I was stationed in New Deli; we had a terrorist incident in Kashmir, India. Where Islamic terrorists kidnapped some western backpackers and for about a month we figured they would let them go like they have all of the others. But then they beheaded a Norwegian hostage and carved the initials of their organization on his chest to show they meant business. And about 36 hours later, I'm at the New Deli airport with my new best friends from Delta Force. Less than 24-hours later, I was in Kashmir. I barely have time to write my wife a note saying, "Hey, I don't know when I'll be back, pray for me." I went up there with some guys from Delta Force. The Brits sent two guys from the SAS and the Germans sent two guys from the GSG9. For a couple of months up there we tried to help the Indians rescue the hostages. We were not successful. Anyway, I got to know the guys from Delta Force pretty good. And there was no choice. They can be fairly closed mouth about what they do, but when you're with them for 24 hours a day for an extended period of time, they seem to open up a little. The lieutenant colonel who ran the Mogadishu mile. Are you familiar with the movie Black Hawk Down? BH: Yes. RO: Well, when they run that last mile from the city to where the Pakistanis were, that called the “ Moga mile” (Mogadishu mile). So I like that movie a lot. But a movie about Vietnam that I like and I've read the book as well, was "we were soldiers once" talking about the war. And the movie focuses on the first half the book, which was a success story, the second half of the book talks about an ambush of another unit. BH: Leave it to Hollywood to make a feel good movie. RO: I am a veracious reader. One book I just finished, I just read it on my Kindle. And I liked it so much that I wanted a hard copy. So this is Stonewall Jackson and the American Civil War by a British Colonel that was written around 1900. I liked it so much that I just had to get a hard copy so that I can bookmark it and bring to class and show my students. Stonewall Jackson is just an unbelievable. He was mortally wounded in 11 �Chancellorsville. Because if he had lived there, then the south might have won. And even though I pride my southern tradition. It would not have been a good thing if the south had avoided defeat in the Civil War. BH: My last question…how did the military service affect your life. Was it for the good or the bad? RO: Well the Jury is probably still out (laughter) I'm proud of my military service; it gave me the chance to travel a lot. My wife and I have spent many years overseas. Germany, Vietnam, Australia I was the school of artillery instructor in Sydney. In Asia, I served in several different tours. Spent three and a half years in Bangladesh, four and a half years in India on different tours. When I wasn’t doing artillery jobs, I worked as a defense attaché in our embassy in Dacca Bangladesh as the lieutenant colonel and New Deli as a full colonel. Being in the military definitely gave me the ability to see a lot of the world. The army also sent me to graduate school at the University of Georgia. I got my masters in Soviet Studies and Geography. BH: Is there anything you would like to add that we didn't cover today? RO: No. I appreciate you coming and I enjoyed you coming and getting to know you and getting to see Laura again. BH: Well, I appreciate getting to know you. RO: God bless. 12 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/636681b4f2ff57d993f734fc77717b16.mp3 09a9f8ad8cb70dfa4dab21c7521ddeb0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Olson, Russell Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Hedgepath, Ben Interview Date 10/15/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:43 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Oakland, California, Vietnam, Army, officer, field artillery, Citadel, Germany, Fort Drum, India, Special Forces, Fort Bragg, adviser in Vietnam, Montagnards, Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base, Saigon, Vietcong, Bronze Star, Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry, Vietnamese Service Medal, Vietnamese Campaign Medal Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Russell Olson, 15 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Olson, Russell, 1947 Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Russell Olson Jr., born August 3, 1947, served as a field artillery officer in the U.S. Army for 30 years, including service in Vietnam. In this interview he discusses the draft for the Vietnam war and his personal experience, including living with the Montagnards in the highlands of Vietnam. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Olson, Russell Hedgepath, Ben Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 12 pages Language A language of the resource English colonel Field Artillery Officer Russell V. Olson Jr. Saigon US Army Vietnameseization https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/0d6d6efa649f07dfbdcf4d6d2d1430f0.pdf f245ac36504268533dc5098ce0e1670b PDF Text Text Military Oral History Interview Transcript Adam Jordenson 13 October 2011 CS: Caleb Sonneland AJ: Adam Jorgenson CS: This is Caleb Sonneland in American Military History. It is October 13th at 7pm and I'm on the phone with Adam Jorgenson. Just brief, basic stuff at first, could you please state your birthday. AJ: It is June 26, 1981. CS: Great, and what branch of service were you in during the war? AJ: I was in the Army. CS: What was your rank? AJ: I was a specialist, E4. CS: OK and where did you serve specifically? AJ: Specifically where did I serve…in the state? I was stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. CS: OK. AJ:. 101st Airborne. CS: And you enlisted, correct? AJ: Yes. CS: When and where was that? AJ: I enlisted in Austin, Texas in 2003, I believe. So I enlisted there. CS: And what made you enlist? AJ: What made me enlist? I was kind of looking for some direction. My dad had just had a stroke, so it would help the family out with having a steady income. CS: Yes. 1 �AJ: My dad who served in the Navy, when I told him, said "I wouldn't do it" and I was like, "Well, watch me" (laughs). CS: Your dad served in the Navy? I didn't know that. AJ: Yes, he was in the Navy. CS: Was that in Bremerton then? AJ: Yes, he was there, but not when I was alive. It was before I was born, yes. CS: OK, awesome. When you went to enlist, did you go by yourself, or did you go with somebody? AJ: I went by myself. CS: OK cool. So after that, what was the process? Did you get shipped out immediately or did you have a little time? I don't really know the process. AJ: No, after I enlisted, they sent me where you take some standardized tests to make sure you're not going to fall apart on them. I believe it was for me, it took a few months to actually leave. Eleven issued to that station, yes 11. CS: OK, so you went straight to…you went straight to boot camp or you got shipped out? AJ: I went straight to boot camp. I think I had a day to hold over before…like I got info. For some people it was a week or two. It was a little holding area, which is like boot camp as well. But for me, it was like two days and the next class graduated and the next class comes in. CS: And how long were you in boot camp? AJ: Boot camp was 16 weeks, I think. Yes, I was in the infantry…like normal boot camp is eight-week boot camp. They have their guarantee. But for infantry, it’s all straight boot camp? CS: OK, and how was that? Was it tough? AJ: Boot camp was…I was older than most, you know, people who join the Army at 17, 18. For them, it was a little tougher. For me, it was pretty easy. It was just a game. It wasn't that bad. CS: Interesting. When you got shipped out, where did you initially get shipped to? AJ: I initially got shipped to where I stayed...(unintelligible)…my whole army career. All seven years of it. CS: Interesting. Did you see any combat? 2 �AJ: Yes. CS: What was your job or initial assignment when you got there? AJ: My initial assignment was just infantry. I went to the 101st of the 1202 (deuce). Was a brigade. I was in Charlie Company 3rd Battalion. At first, it was just a regular infantry job, and then after that, I went and tried out to be an infantry scout. And that's what my job was when we (unintelligible) it happened pretty fast. CS: Did you say you applied to be an infantry scout? Or what was... AJ: Yeah, you got to try out. There's extra training and you got to actually try out to be an infantry scout. CS: And that was successful then? AJ: Hmm. CS: OK, cool. So you said you did see combat. Where about was that? AJ: We were in South Baghdad. Near…It was South of Biop. “Biop” is the Baghdad International airport. CS: OK...go ahead. AJ: Hm. I'm sorry, yeah, we were set up down there. CS: OK. Were there many casualties in your unit? AJ: I believe, when I first got to my unit, I got there right after they had come back. Because they were the first wave; they were the first to go into Iraq. So when I got there, I was a cherry (laughs). Brand new. CS: Yeah. AJ: They had just gotten back. I got there after a year, and then again, the first time they were there, I think they had three or four casualties. Then the time I went, they had like 53 or 54, I think…there was a lot more the second time. CS: The second time was? AJ: Yeah, there were a lot more casualties. CS: OK. And I'm just reading off some questions that our professor wants us to ask, tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences, if that's alright. 3 �AJ: The most memorable experience…of Iraq or the Army? CS: Iraq would be... AJ: Goodness. There were a bunch of them. We averaged about an lED (improvised explosive device) about every other day. CS: Really? AJ: Yes, a lot of them. You get really used to it, because a lot of things are going off. And you're in a Hum-V, so a lot of them didn't really hurt anybody, so you're going to get used to it. CS: So were you an infantry scout when you were in Iraq then? AJ: Yes, we were in a RSTA unit, which is reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition. And that is snipers, we were URF's. You're talking helicopters. Like if people are in a sector and they get attacked, it's up to the helicopters to go out there and throw a rope down. That's the system. CS: And what were you doing specifically? AJ: What was I doing? CS: Yes. AJ: In the scouts, your job changes. CS: Okay. AJ: So, depending on what it is, you can go out for certain things. On routine missions, you can go out and patrol a sector. So, it just rotated out. You could be gunner, driver - you could just be dispatch. It just switched out for everybody. All turned out. And then you could go on…I would go on sniper OP's. Sit up there with snipers... CS: Did you say "OB's"? AJ: Yes, OP's. CS: Okay. And then were you awarded any medals or citations? AJ: Oh yes (laughs). CS: Yes? How did you get those? 4 �AJ: I got them…the Army just kind of hand out medals for like "Oh you've been enlisted two years, here's a medal." You know (laughs). So I got a couple of those awards. Then I got an ARCOM for killing three insurgents, I think. So I got an ARCOM for that. CS: Did you say a "NARCOM"? AJ: An ARCOM. Sorry, I'm using - I'm talking all Army on you. It's an Army Commendation Medal. CS: Yes, I'm sorry. I have a very cursory knowledge of all this stuff. Sorry about that. So while you were over there, how'd you stay in touch with your family? Or I guess, were you and Corinne dating…engaged? AJ: I was engaged to a different girl (laughs). CS: Oh, really? AJ: Yes. I stayed in touch…every once and while, we can go to Baghdad, you know, the big base, and use the Internet trailers. They would have that. You'd wait in line for an hour and a half, be at a computer for 15 minutes, and you know the Internet is so slow over there. You check like three e-mails and your time is up (laughs). CS: Short lived. How often did you go out there? AJ: When we first started, we weren't at that base. I think towards the last three or four months, we moved on to there. Actually, in trailers. We'd go out on the edge of it. So, at first we were out in our little camp and base, and then towards the end, they rotated us in, so we actually got to stay there, which was nice. CS: So on your routine day, what was your daily routine, I guess? AJ: On a routine day, we had targets that we were working towards. On a routine, boring day would be…we would go…they had scheduled us…it would be three days at a time. So three days, you'd go out in the morning. Early, at like four in the morning, or no, six in the morning. So there were three shifts. There was a morning, an afternoon and an evening and there was overnight. And every three days, you'd switch. So you'd have the all night (shift), and then in three days, you'd have the morning. CS: Okay. AJ: And then another shift, like a regular day shift, you go out, drive around and try and talk to the little communities they have there. And, you befriend them and that way they would tell us…there were insurgents all around there, and a lot of times, they were just afraid to talk. Because a lot of what was going on was between different villages…Sunnis and the Shiites. So, we'd go out there and we'd talk to them and every once and a while we'd go look for caches and 5 �buried weapons. But a lot of the time, it was just boring. We'd just drive around looking for...information really. CS: Did you ever find cached weapons? AJ: Oh yeah, we found huge caches (laughs). CS: Really? AJ: Yeah, it was one of the most boring things we did, because we'd show up...if this were a real war, like World War Two, the infantry scout would be going in three-man teams behind enemy lines and scouting the enemy. But in Iraq… CS: Where are the lines? AJ: We'd go and…do the boring thing. Walk around berms and canals. They'd have berms and you'd go around with a metal detector. It would go off and you'd dig, and a lot of times you wouldn't find anything. I remember one time, Sirco (his friend), was digging, he put his shovel in the ground and he pulled out a mine (laughs). He was like "Oh my God! A mine!" So he threw down the shovel and started running. CS: Was it a live mine? AJ: It was, yes. It wasn't set up, it was just cached. CS: Oh, okay. That's crazy. I asked you to talk about a couple of your memorable experiences, I guess what was your most memorable - do you have a single most memorable day? AJ: Single most memorable day…would probably be when engaged the insurgents from the sniper OP and killed all three of them. Well that was my most memorable day - that's where you get all the pats on the back for a job well done. CS: Yes, absolutely. AJ: I mean, there was so much…when you go from not having TV or not having alcohol, you got to adapt to that by getting into the brotherhood. So like, a lot of it for me, was so much fun. That produced a lot of memorable moments. CS: I’m sure it did. You probably made some of your best friends, I would d imagine, in spending that much time with people? AJ: Oh yeah. Yes, a lot of best friends. Well, a few best friends. CS: How did people entertain themselves? AJ: Entertain themselves? Gambling was one of them that got pretty serious. 6 �CS: Gambling, you said? AJ: Yes, card gambling. The soldiers are over there and they don’t have anything to do for excitement, so they would gamble. I got into a few games, but I’m not a big gambler. They would sit there, four or five of them, playing card games. I’m talking like...any card game. Holding the card on your forehead. CS: Yes, hold them, blackjack, Indian poker? AJ: Yes, but there would be $3000 in the pot. CS: The heavy hitters table. AJ: Yes, it got pretty fun to watch. Then they had weights, and I would always just go work out. CS: Get huge. AJ: (laughs) Yes. CS: What did you do when you were on leave? AJ: When I was on leave, oh God, shit man. That sucks. I went to go see my fiancé. When I left for Iraq, she joined the Air Force. And so she had got through basic training by the time I got leave. By the time I got through the deployment, and she was stationed in Germany. I took a f****** flight, instead of coming back to see my family, I took a flight to go and see her. When I got to Germany, she didn't pick me up from the airport. So I got a taxi ride to her base, and I didn't know where she was, so I just walked around until I found barracks room where she was sleeping. I was like…this is going…this is going suck. CS: Uh oh AJ: I think it was a weeklong. So basically, I went to Germany, stayed with her and it was just f****** awful. I couldn't wait to get back to Iraq. CS: Really? That'll happen. Was Germany the only place you travelled when you were on leave then? AJ: When I was on leave, yeah. When I was in Iraq. When I was back in the States on leave, I would just come back here to Austin. CS: You said you were in Kentucky? AJ: Yes, I was in Kentucky. CS: Okay, so that's not too far. It’s a little ways. 7 �AJ: lt’s about 14 hours. CS: Yes, okay. Wait, that's 14 hours? Really? AJ: Yes, it was a 14 hour drive. Fort Campbell is split. Half of it is on Kentucky and half is in Tennessee. CS: Damn. I didn’t realize that. What did you think of your officers? AJ: Uhhh (laughs) CS: You can be honest! You can tell me! AJ: Yeah? A lot of them were...there were some stellar, you know, rock star officers but the majority of them...the officers are a lot younger. CS: Really? AJ: My brother in-law, Aaron, was actually an officer. He got out right when I got in. But he was an officer. You become an officer…you become a first lieutenant. You graduate college, you're all of a sudden…you know, you go to officer training and it's just like basic. Then all of a sudden, you're in charge of a platoon of guys who have been there for 15 years. So they had a lot less experience. There were some that tried...I remember a mortar attack and captain…captain…so they're mortaring us, everybody’s taking cover, and he just runs out into the middle of this quad. He was like follow me! And everybody was shouting back, “Where?” They're mortaring us. Take cover sir. I remember an officer got out and fired on a tank - fired on a Bradley. Which…insurgents don’t have Bradley’s. He was just so hyped up and nervous; he just got out, dismounted and fired on the Bradley (laughs). CS: A Bradley is a tank? AJ: A Bradley is...picture it as a small tank. CS: Sorry. Again, there's my rookie military knowledge. AJ: Yeah, no. Go ahead and stop me whenever I do that. CS: So you're officially...your service is completely over, correct? AJ: Actually, yes. Just last month. CS: Really? So what was that like to have it done and dusted with? 8 �AJ: Oh, it was awesome. When I got back last year…I signed up for three years. So I served three years in camps, and I got stopped. When you come back from Iraq, they won't let you out. They want to make sure you're not going to go crazy. So I served three months or sorry, three years and some change. But you owe…you can sign up for two years, but the Army owns you for eight, no matter what you sign up for. So, it's inactive service. What that means is they could call you up, you could be getting married, going to college, and they call you up. The sad thing about that is that you don't get to choose. They put you with a s*** unit that deploys easily. So they must have had like…they're just kind of like "Here's $20,000 that we can leave in the lobby. You get a year out of civilization..." and I was like "Fuck you, no. That's bullshit. I don't like this idea." That's the one thing about the Army. "(Unintelligible), Sir." and I was like "Nope. (Unintelligible) s***." If I didn't do it, he's like, "You're going to get called back up and get nothing." and I was like, "I'll take that chance." My buddy bought into that service thing, he did it, and he went and he got guaranteed a year of stabilization on stateside. He can't deploy. But if you get deployed, they're like "You're coming with us." and he's like "No, I'm not." They go "You signed the contract." and he says "That doesn't mean anything!" His mom actually went to the congressman; she took a train all the way up to the commander of the base. They had said (to his friend), "Yeah, you got to go." And so his mom went to the congressman, but he had to honor the contract. They were going ship him off. So it's felt really good to know that…there was a while there where I wasn't checking the mail. Just because, you know, you get a letter and it says you got two weeks to report to here and then you're in camp for three more years. CS: So you'd just stay away from the mailbox to… AJ: I'd stay away from it, yeah. CS: You said you made some close friendships from your time in the service. Do you still keep in contact with them pretty regularly? The guys you met? AJ: I sure do. There's, you know…I keep relative contact with a lot of the platoon. You know, whenever somebody died. But there were at least four good friends that I still really keep in touch with. CS: And where are they located? AJ: They are like…two of my best friends…well, Edee Anthony (laughs). Anthony moved back to Ohio, but he went for another deployment. He stayed in. He got his six (years). That was one of the things that was like, if I had gotten my commission, my non-commission. If I became an NCO, they would have sent me somewhere else. And so everybody who did the most advanced special they all wanted to stay together. They knew each other. You have your solution then. But he (Edee) got his six, he went back to Iraq. He came back, got out, and he went back to Ohio. He 9 �ended up going to school for, I think, nursing. And then he lost his mind a little bit. He got arrested. CS: Oh boy. AJ: He was facing prison charges. For kidnapping (laughs). CS: For kidnapping? AJ: Well, no. Someone in his apartment complex had stolen his bike, his motorcycle, and he's usually really quiet. He's a big guy too. They told him his neighbor did it, so he was drinking and went over there with a gun. It sounds horrible from the perspective of a civilian (laughs). CS: I understand. AJ: Just because he has a gun, doesn't mean he's going to shoot him. When you're in Iraq, you have to have a loaded weapon on you at all times when you go to the bathroom. CS: Yes. AJ: So it's like, you go over there with a gun, of course he wasn't going to shoot him, but that's a lot more serious here in the States. He went over there and he was like, "You steal my bike?" and the guy was like, "No, my friend did it." So he was like "Well, take me to him." and he was like "Okay", so he went to go put his boots on and the cops came. It was a big, huge deal. But he said they kind of laughed leaving the guy's apartment. He just got some - instead of prison time - he just got some probation. So he's there, that was him. My other friend, that was kind of one extreme, came back and joined the police force. CS: Interesting. Where about in the police force? Or where? AJ: He's in Denver, like on the outskirts of Denver. CS: Okay, cool. So what, specifically…if you could give me the timeline of your years of service, like when you were in Kentucky, and then…you said you were in Kentucky in 2003? Or was it 2002 when you enlisted? AJ: I deployed, I think toward the end of 2005. All right, so 16 weeks there. So I believe that around that time, I was in Kentucky for about a year before we deployed. CS: Now is that 2005 to about 2006? AJ: I got out in some month and (unintelligible). I got out halfway through 2006. CS: OK, I misunderstood. So in 2002, you were in Kentucky and then you got shipped out in 2003? 10 �AJ: I got shipped out in 2005. CS: I'm so confused. AJ: So I joined in 2003, spent 16 weeks in basic, got shipped to Kentucky and was in Kentucky the whole time until, it was probably over a year, so I was in Kentucky until 2005, then I went to Iraq for 13 months, got back in 2006, then I had to wait, I think two or three months and then I got out. So I got out midway or towards the end of 2006. CS: Okay, okay, okay. AJ: But you still owe like, I was out, but I was in inactive service, which means, they could call you up and tell you they wanted you. CS: So, until about a month ago, you were inactively serving? AJ: Yeah. CS: And that's what you were talking about earlier with the… AJ: I don't have to do anything, but they can call you up. CS: So you were on-call basically. AJ: Hmm. CS: Well, that’s all the questions I have for you. That’s plenty of information, that’s going to be awesome. I really appreciate it. AJ: Cool. Great. No problem. 11 � https://omeka-test.library.appstate.edu/files/original/e6352dc2000a1b4cc745899163af7d1e.mp3 fdc7117c4c0e600d41c7236a71e49466 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Appalachian State University American Military History Course Veterans Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Each semester, the students of the American Military History Course at Appalachian State University conduct interviews with military veterans and record their military experiences in order to create an archive of oral history interviews that are publicly accessible to researchers. The oral histories are permanently available in the Appalachian State University Special Collections. The project is supervised by Dr. Judkin Browning, Associate Professor of History at Appalachian State University and all interviews are transcribed by the student interviewers. Copyright Notice: Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project’s audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used (e.g. Veterans Oral History Project, University Archives and Records, Special Collections, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC). Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed. Jorgenson, Adam Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview. Sonneland, Caleb Interview Date 10/13/11 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:15 min Copyright Copyright for the Veterans Oral History Project's audio and transcripts is held by Appalachian State University. These materials are available for free personal, non-commercial, and educational use, provided that proper citation is used. Tag Army, Fort Campbell, 101st Airborne, infantry, combat, Baghdad, Iraq, IED Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adam Jorgenson, 13 October 2011 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Jorgenson, Adam Veterans Personal narratives, American United States Interviews Description An account of the resource Adam Jorgenson, born June 26, 1981, served as an Army Specialist in the Iraq War, South Baghdad. In this interview, he discusses a routine day of visiting communities, searching for weapon caches, and what soldiers did in their free time. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jorgenson, Adam Sonneland, Caleb Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a title="UA.5018. American Military History Course Records" href="https://appstate-speccoll.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/167" target="_blank">UA.5018. American Military History Course Records</a> Extent The size or duration of the resource. 11 pages Language A language of the resource English army specialist Fort Campbell Kentucky infantry scout RSTA Unit South Baghdad